Manitoba Hansard — 9 April 1973 (Sitting 55, 29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-55

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE AS$EMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2:30 o' clock, Monday, April 9, 1973 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1503 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to·direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 24 students of Grade 6 standing of the Bannatyne School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Goldsborough and Mrs. Martin. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. We also have 30 students of Grades 9 and 10 standing of the Ross L. Gray School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Leonard.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you all here today. (Recording Failure) READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. CLERK: ... praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate Westminister United Church Foundation. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Member for Osborne. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSEN (Morris) introduced Bill No. 34,

an Act to amend The Snowmobile Act. HON. A. H. MAC KLING, Q. C. (Attorney-General) introduced Bill No. 6,

an Act to amend The Sale of Goods Act; and Bill No. 7,

an Act to amend The Bills of Sale Act. MR. GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson) introduced Bill No. 23,

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate "The Winnipeg Real Estate Board". ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. I wonder if the government is in a position to explain why the largest single increase in Winnipeg' s cost of living index last month was in the health and personal care category. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SC HREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, there is no way in which I could respond to that question without notice and offhand.

I will take it as notice and attempt to provide some information in a day or two. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister, not by way of supplementary but by way of an additional question although it relates to the question of the cost of living. Have any estimates been done of the dollar impact of rising food costs on the average Manitoba family? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that we have attempted to do a provincial analysis on a unilateral basis. I would assume that there is some such analysis going on on a national basis.

I might add that to the extent the Problem exists here it exists elsewhere in Canada and to a greater extent. I do believe that Statistics Canada will show that the cost of living index, the "shopping basket" so-called, increased by approximately one percentage point less last year in Winnipeg than in other Canadian metropolitan centres of equal or larger size. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes , to the First Minister.

I wonder if the First Minister can indicate what the government believes the effect will be of the Bank of Canada's increase of a half percent in its prime lending rate on the cost of living in Manitoba? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that is a phenomena that will be of national application and I don't believe that there is anything that can be done again on a single province basis that will be able to cope with a change that has been brought about by a national agency which is what the Bank of Canada is.

1504 April 9, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary question. I wonder if the government can indicate what effect that prime lending rate increase will have on housing costs and retailer-consumer credit in the province? MR. SCHREYER: It will have an upward effect, Mr. Speaker, contributing towards in flation, in one sense, On the other hand I presume that the action was taken by the Govern ment of Canada and the Bank of Canada for reasons best known to them, presumably because they wish to follow now an anti-inflationary policy, but there is a built in paradox. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes a supplementary. I wonder then if the First Minister can indicate whether the increase will have any direct effect on Provincial Government borrowing and debt financing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Oh, it will probably have an indirect effect, Mr. Speaker. I would be surprised if it didn't.

On the other hand, Manitoba as many other provinces has been re sorting to the capital markets of the world in recent years and therefore the effect of the Bank of Canada action will be indirect at most, will not be a direct effect. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister, although if the Attorney-General is back in his seat I think I'll probably direct it to him, it would be probably more appropriate.

I wonder if he could indicate whether the government is considering the introduction of legislation providing the guarantees of journalistic protection? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MAC KLING: The question is an interesting one and it's naturally a policy decision on behalf of government, and I'm aware of the fact that other jurisdictions and other parlia ments are concerned about the matter. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary.

I wonder if the Attorney-General can indicate whether there are any proposed amendments to The Manitoba Evidence Act being contemplated? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: That's a policy matter and I don't think that I can indicate anything definitive on it at this stage. I understand that there's a bill before Parliament respecting press rights and the rights of journalists. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary.

I wonder if the Attorney-General can inform the House whether the matter would be studied in co-operation with the representatives of the media or will it be referred to the Law Reform Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Certainly it may be possible that the matter be discussed with repre sentatives of the media, I know that there have been informal discussions about certain· matters.

For example, prior to the commencement of this House the Committee I think of Rules and Privileges were concerned about certain rights of the media and certainly there was some dia logue on that occasion and I anticipate there will be further dialogue from time to time about the rights of the media. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. (Izzy) ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

Does the government have any studies or has it any specific reports on the desirability or feasibility of locating any of the specific proposed oil and gas line routes from the Arctic through Manitoba. Do we have any specific studies on that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to commiserate with my honourable friend for his affliction. It's not clear to me whether it's a result of something that happened a week ago or just last Saturday night. But in any case addressing myself to the question.

There have been discussions with the President of Pan Arctic Oil with respect to possible routing of the Arctic supply oil pipeline and in May, this coming May, there is a probability that there will be some more firm announcement relative to the routing of the pipeline. Up until now we have not put any significant amount of provincial funds at work in terms of studying alternative routes.

April 9, 1973 1505 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Well can the First Minister's answer be taken then as meaning the Provin cial Government supports the idea of a pipeline through Manitoba and that the Provincial Govern ment will make representations in that regard? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, assuming that there is sufficient evidence that there are substantial deposits in commercial amounts of oil and gas in the high Arctic then if that would be so no doubt the Government of Canada will want to take steps with respect to arranging for the pipelining of those supplies to the southe� n market. And in that context of course the provinces would be advised what the intentions are. So far it has been almost on an academic plane and we have not committed any significant amounts of monies to studies in that respect. I will try to get more specific information for my honourable friend.

MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of personal privilege. Last week the Member for Portage questioned me on whether or not I had asked my staff to engage in political activity in support of this government and I have since checked into the matter, Mr. Speaker. Of cburse I want to remind the House that at that point my answer was "no".

Subsequent to my ans':"er, however, the Member for Portage went out side of the House and advised the media, or indicated to the media, that the MGEA was indeed very unhappy about the incident having occurred and had passed a resolution, or at least those were the allegations of some people who spoke to the Member for Portage la Prairie. I want to read into the record, Mr.

SpJaker, a letter which I have received from the President of the MGEA with respect to this ii;icident, and I quote: "In reply to your inquiry I am pleased to make the following statement which I hope will set the record straight regarding the matter of Mr. Johnston's reputed statement concerning the MGEA and discussions occur ring at the recent departmental conference o� the Agricultural Department. In my official position as President of the MGEA I must categorically deny that the Association had any dis cussion official or otherwise dealing with the, context of Mr.

Uskiw's remarks at the Annual Conference of the Department of Agriculture held on March 20-21 of this year. Mr. Uskiw's statements were an internal concern of the department privy to the employees of department and as such not a matter which could be considered for official discussion or action on the part of our association, and no such discussion ot action has taken place or is contemplated. Some confusion may have arisen from the fact that ,I was asked to and did report to the employees in Mr. Uskiw' s absence on the current concern� and business of the Association.

In that report amongst many other things I did report on our concern that the government had indicated that it was prepared to grant civil servants the right to participate visibly and actively in provincial and federal election activities. I reported thht we were concerned and the executive opposed this increased freedom in the light of what mt y rationally be expected to occur within the civil service based on historical evidence. In my remarks I at no time made any reference, direct or indirect to any statement of Mr. Uskiw's, 1nor did I do so by inference." Mr.

Speaker, I simply want to take this opportunity -- I want to table this letter --and take this opportunity to suggest to the Membe� for Portage that a very simple phone call with respect to the MGEA would have given him th_r necessary information and that he would not have had to cast aspersions on anyone in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem�er for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, if I may speak on the matter of privilege raised by the Minister of Agriculture.

It is true that I did say outside of this House that certain civil servants, and as ,I take it all civil servants are members of the MGEA, were dissatisfied with government action with respect to expecting them to take politi cally active parts on behalf of the adniinistrat� on. It is true that I did say that, that I did not attribute this statement to the officials of the MGEA, the President or any of his executive.

But I did say that members of the civil servicb were dissatisfied. -- (Interjection) --Well, the Minister of Public Works says "prove it11•1 I was told by civil servants, and a goodly number of them, and I shall not reveal their names here. If you don't want to take my word for it well then there's nothing I can do about it. So I'm making a statement that I've had

1506 April 9, 1973 MATTER OF PRIVIL EGE (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) .. ... representations from numerous civil servants, not from one or two, from many civil servants that they are dissatisfied with the government's action in this regard, and I raised it and I thought I raised it properly. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, this is to the First Minister and it relates to a question that I asked last week and in my absence I think the First Minister answered.

The question I had put was: Does the government have in its possession a report which I labelled Manpower Target Groups that indicated that 90. 3 percent of the Indian population and 42 percent of the Metis population was unemployed. I understand the answer given was, no the government has no such report. Perhaps I can ask the question giving the full title, date and author. The name of the report which I question is called "Manpower Target Groups and Expenditure Tables"; the author is Paul Nickel and the report is dated the end of 1972.

This is a report which I asked the government to ascertain if it has and if so to table: MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I will check once again. I did check last week and asked for a written indication whether such a report existed. The reply came back in the negative. I will check once again with the sort of expanded title and advise my honourable friend.

If he is asking the question in the form which says, do we have such a report which indicates that 90 percent are unemployed, if that is all to be run together as being the question, then I think I could answer right now that the answer is no. I mean the unemployment factor which is troublesome is no worse today or greater today than it was many years ago. MR. ASPER: Supplementary to that, Mr. Speaker, does the government have any reports at all or any data indicating the level of unemployment amongst the natives and Indian and Metis population? MR. SC HREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, asking in that more general frame I can under take to provide whatever printed report material we have that bears on the general subject of remote native communities and employment opportunities and unemployment problems, I will attempt to do so. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Attorney-General in his capacity as Minister reporting to the House for the Government Liquor Control Commission.

I should like to ask him if it is the intention of the Liquor Control Commission to extend the hours of the liquor outlets in the Province of Mani toba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I would like the honourable member to indicate what he means by liquor outlets. There are licensed liquor vendors and then there are licensees whose operations are determined by the Act. If he's referring to liquor store hour operations themselves, they are determined administratively.

There have been changes over the years; presently there are stores in the City of Winnipeg that operate later than most stores and this is a convenience to the public and also minimizes the illicit sale of liquor from time to time. MR. JORGENSON: M.y question, Sir, dealt with the government control liquor outlets. It is my understanding that the hours are to be extended on each and every one of the stores, not just a selective group of them. I wonder if the Minister would be able to reply to that question? MR. MACKLING: I'm not aware, Mr.

Speaker, of any general extension of hours but that is an administrative matter that is considered from time to time by the board. It hasn't been brought to my attention that there is any general extension of hours but I'll certainly make inquiry about it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Education. I'd like �o ask him if the school district of Sprague will qualify for special assistance in the same way as did Camperville and Ninette? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education.

April 9, 1973 1507 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, not knowing what the similarity is that the honourable member is referring to therefore the answer must be no. MR. GIRARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister then, is it a lack of aware- ness that leads him to answer that? MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. JOSEPH P, BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I'll direct my question to the First Minister, it's really for the Minister of Northern Affairs, has to do with an expediter, Ben Thompson at Thompson who on behalf of a group purchased a cartridge firm. So my question is: Did the MDC give him the $1 75, OOO that he used to purchase a cartage firm in Thompson? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I would have to ask the honourable member, did he say cartage firm -- cartage -- trucking firm? Mr.

Speaker, I will have to take that as notice as to what involvement if any there was on the part of any financing agency of the Crown. MR. THOMPSON: A question for the Attorney-General. I wonder if he could report to the House how many inmates were charged -- as a result of that last year's fracas at Heading ley Jail, how many individuals were charged? MR. MACKLING: I would have to take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker, I don't recall. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister, it relates to the Pan Arctic Oil development.

I wonder if he can indicate whether the government has made any studies of what bargaining position the province would take with respect to Pan Arctic if in fact a decision is made for the pipeline to be built on the assumption that it potentially is possible. --(Interjection) -- Well, Mr. Speaker, I then will phrase it another way. Has the government considered possibilities and have they a policy with respect to the bargaining that must be taken with Pan Arctic Oil with respect to the pipeline so that there will be a benefit for the people of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the question is heavily hypothetical. It is, I believe, no secret that there has been a rather concentrated study by Pan Arctic Oil and others of the Government of Canada involved in energy development with respect to two possible routes, at first three possible routes for this pipeline and I now I believe it has come to a choice of two routes.

One is directly south as the bird flies literally from Resolute or King Christian Island area south to the southern part of Manitoba, and the other route involves a pretty large water crossing and then down the great northern part of the Province of Quebec, etc. And really, Sir, up until this point in time there has not been occasion or substantial enough reason to involve the Province of Manitoba in bargaining in the sense to which my honourable friend refers. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary.

I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether the government will consider the possibility of a wellhead price for either Northern Manitoba or for all of Manitoba as one of the bargaining factors and criteria with the pipeline company? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, this is yet another one of the reasons why the Manitoba Energy Council was formed, the matter of the pipeline routing from the high Arctic to the southern part of Canada is something which has been referred to the Minister of the Manitoba Energy Council and the board and it will be discussed and considered there. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary.

Well I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether the government would look favourable to a wellhead price being provided for either Northern Manitoba or for all of Manitoba as a bargaining factor for the pipeline? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, all factors relating to what my honourable friend refers to will be taken into account and into consideration. The matter is still five, six years down the road and we have geared up well in advance I feel to deal with all of these questions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able the Minister in charge of transportation. In view of the deal announced by the Canadian

1508 April 9, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. FROESE cont'd) .•... Government in the sale of wheat and barley to Russia, and also in view that the statement was made that some of the grain would be shipped via Churchill, does this mean that we will have an increased amount of grain going through that port this year. And also in connection with that same questi on, has the government had any discuss ion with the Russian government in providing a longer season in regard to insurance? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I can take the question as notice on behalf of my colleague the Minis ter of Indus try and Commerce who reports for the Transportation Council, but in the interim I can advise my honourable-friend as he is well aware, the Port of Churchill seems to have a maximum capacity of grain shipment in the order of 25 to 28 million bushels and on the basis of traditional practice and operations it doesn't seem to be possible to go beyond that without getting involved in extended season shipping.

It is with this view in mind that repres entatives of the Soviet Union Trade Mission were invited to take a look at the Port of Churchill to familiarize themselves with the shipping problems and to indicate whether they would have an interest in extending shipping and we await some indication of intent from them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and perhaps to the Minister of Public Works.

Is the Government of Manitoba negotiating for the purchase of the Comm unity Chev Motors building on Main Street or some similar large facility in north Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. RUSSELL DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (Elmwood) : Mr. Speaker, the Department of Public Works has long-range plans of relocating the Provincial Garage . MR. ASPER: Is the Government of Manitoba planning to purchase a facility such as Community Chev building and is there a plan to install a community clinic operation in that area? MR. DOERN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. STATEMENT MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, do I have your permission to issue a short statement? MR. SPEAKER: ... leave of the House. Is it agreed? (Agreed) MR. BARROW: The Flin Flon Midget Bombers are repres enting Manitoba in the Prince Edward Island Champ ionships. They have won the Midget Championship for M:mitoba and are going to the Dominion Finals between April 14th and April 20th. The players, Mr.

Speaker, are: Dale Rideout, Howard Bielby, Rick Spiruk, Glen Tindall, Daryl Graff, Don Henry, Brent Kristoff, Kelly Gilmore, Richard Woloshyn, Tom Cu llen, Ron Willey, Kim Peteluk, Gerry Nickolson, Kim Davis, Garry Schnider, Keith Rurak, Leslie Bray, Eddie Hagan, Joe Harrower, Kevin Ginnel, Bobby Clark, Ray Jarvis, Coach, and Arnold Kitch, Manager. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUE STIO NS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister and I believe he took the initial question as notice.

This has to do with the problems of pre-customs clearance to the United States and the proposed changes that are to be made. I wonder if the government's in a position to indicate whether any repres entation has been made to Ottawa to prevent the change that has been proposed that pre-customs clearance not take place in Winnipeg? MR. SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, I believe that has been referred to the Minister of Industry and Commerce and hopefully he can reply early this week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, my question will be to the Minist er of Cult ural Affairs and Tourism.

I wonder if he can indicate whether there is any possibility that tourism will be affected by the proposed change of pre-customs clearance -- not in Winnipeg but in the United States? Will it mean that there will be an added inconvenience to travellers coming into Manitoba from the United States ?

April 9, 1973 1509 ORAL QUE STION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. LAURENT L, DE SJARDINS (Minister of Tourism, Recre ation and Cult ural Affa irs) (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I must admit that we were concerned with this change and we expressed our concern to the Minister responsible in Ottawa. MR. SPIVA K: Well then I take it that there has been repres entation made to him ? - (Interjection) -- I'm sorry, I did not really hear the answer, I just would like to paraphrase and then ask another question. MR.

DESJARDINS: Yes, it was informal but we did express our concern to the Minist er responsible in Ottawa. I can table the telegram that we sent tomorrow if you wish. MR. SPIVAK: Well, to the Minist er of Cult ural Af fairs and Tourism. Then in the department's opinion there would be a detriment to tourism as a result of such a change? MR. SPEAKER: ... the ques tion is ... and the honourable member is debating the point. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I will ask it as a question, again, then, because represent ation is made doesn't necess arily mean that they consider it to be a detrimen t.

Does the department consider that a change, the change that' s being proposed would in fact be a detri ment to tourism for Manitoba for those people travelling by air into Manitoba ? MR. DESJA RDINS: I did answer the question. I said that the department was concerned and we expressed our concern to the Minis ter responsible in Ottawa, and we wanted to know more information on it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER : Mr. Speaker, my quest ion to the Minister of Urban Affairs relates to a question asked a few weeks ago which was taken as notice.

The qu estion then was .• would the government let us know whether it' s made a decision on the City of Winnipeg' s request for the Province of Manitoba to turn over to the City of Winnipeg the 17 or 18 or 19 government-owned homes surrounding Grace Hospital ? The Minister took the question as notice to determine whether such a request had been received. MR. HANUSCHAK: The request has not been received, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minist er of Public Utilities.

I wonder if the Minist er could indicate if the Manitoba Telephone System has been authorized to charge for station-to-station long di stance telephone calls being accepted or received by a mech anical device which simp ly states by recorded announcement that a messa ge may be recorded. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BORO WSKI: I have a ques tion for the First Minister. I wonder if he could indicate whether there's any truth to the rumour that he is going to setup the Minister of Mines and Resources as Deputy Minister resident in Thompson -- Deputy Prem ier ?

MR, SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I didn't hear all of the ques tion because the Honourable Member for Arthur was re-asking his question the second time when the Member for Thompson was asking his question and I didn't hear either of them very well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson place his quest ion please. MR. BOROWSKI: No, it's all right. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. Order, please. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MR. WALLY JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Mr.

Speaker, on a matter of privilege, Last Thursday evening the Honourable Member for Ass iniboia made a statement in the budget de bate at which point I raised a ma tter of privilege, The member stated, and I quote from Hansard , page 1432: "The Member for st. Matthews, who says that we believe in total expropriation of a state because he doesn't believe in a state any more and .. . 11 and at that point I raised a ques tion of privilege, saying that he's attributed to me som ething I had never said.

I didn't follow it up because I waited for Hansard in order to get the exact statement of the member and I can now confirm that I was correct that I never did say this. In the speech I made which he quoted from later I spoke for myself, I did not speak for the party and he refers to "we". He uses the term "total expropriation of a state". I don' t know what on earth

1510 April 9, 1973 MATTER OF PRIVILEGE (MR, JOHANNSO N cont'd) .•... he means, it makes no sense at all; and 11becaus. he doesn't believe in a state any more" that doesn't make any sense either . He then proceeded to quote from a speech I made on June 18, 1971 and he quoted out of context, he quoted the sentence, "I would be in favour of taxing away entire estates ." Mr . Speaker, what he did is he omitted a qualifying phrase and I regard this as a very rlishonest practice.

He quoted direc tly from a copy of Hansard and he omitted the word "virtually" which qualifies the entire meaning of the sentence, and I regard that as a very dishonest practice and I wish that sort of practice would stop. My statement is contained on page 1631 of Hansard, June 8, 1971. The honourable mem ber can read, I hope, and he can go back to read it. And I would point out, Mr . Speaker, that the honourable member took what I sa,id out of context and when what I said is placed in context it's very clear what I meant. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, on the point of privilege. Inasmuch as the member isn't here and while I don't have the Hansard from Thursda y evening, cer tainly what the Member from Assin iboia said was the general understanding of the communit y and this Ho ... • e as to what the member said a year ago and that was this: that he believed that on the dt:ath of a person the entire estate should be taxed. That was the imp ression left and that's •he imp res sion that my honourable friend the Member for Ass iniboia tried to convey on Thursda y eve ning.

And the word "virtually" simp ly augments the extent of his view in a total confiscatory estate tax. It's impossible to under stand what the point of privilege is. He was correct!» quoted last Thursday night. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment ) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I don't think we should involve ourselves in a debate. The only point that could be made, if it was a point of privilege, is that somebody read something from Hansard.

If it was properly read the honourable member would have a right to say that he read it properly; if somebody thought it was improperly read, he would have a right to say other wise. I don't think that the matter should go beyond that. MR, SPEAKER: The point is well taken. The Honourable First Minister. ORAL QUESTIONS cont'd MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I now have the gist of the question that was asked by the Member for Thompson. I would like to advise him that the government has proceeded on the basis of a program of action rather than thinking in terms of having a premier's office built in Thompson.

I can advise my honourable friend, for example, that in Newfoundland, a premier's office was constructed at Cornerbrook in addition to the one in the capital of St. John's and I was informed when I was there last year that there have been in all these years, three, a total of three cabinet meet ings in this lavish expensive premi er's suite in Cornerbrook. I would not like to inflict on the taxpayers of Manitoba the expense of a second prem ier's off ice.

What is more important is action through the departments of government and that Ministers do get up to the North whenever they have a reason and opportunity. (Applause.) MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR, PHILIP M. PETURSSON (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, may I address a quest ion to the Honourable First Minister, about the progress or steps being taken to send matters of relief to Iceland in the situation which that country now faces and I think with which everybody is quite fami liar from having read accounts in the newspapers; whether there is anything that can be rqiorted. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minist er. MR. SCHREYER; Mr. Speaker, there have been discus sions between my office and that of two departments of the Government of Canada.

I'm pleased to report there has been excel lent co-operation between the Department of External Af fairs, the Department of Defense federally, and the Province of Manitoba so that I believe this morning it was announced in Ottawa, and I'm pleased to confirm here, that the Government of Canada, the Province of Manitoba, are joining together in an amount of $37, 500 each and Misawa Homes Limited, which is a partnership of Japanese and Manitoba Investment, also $37, 500; all of which

April 9, 1973 1511 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR, SCHREYER cont'd) .. .. . together will provide for the purchase of approximately 8 to 10 homes to be built in Gimli -- Gimli, the New Iceland as it was once known -- and these homes will be airlifted by the Canadian Department of Defence Hercules Aircraft from the airfield at Gimli or New Iceland to Iceland during the course of this spring and early su mmer.

So it's a matter which we can take great, I think, satisf action that we are helping, joining other parts of the world, Sweden, Norway, British Columbia, other countries of the world, provinces, to wards the relief of these 5, OOO families that were forced to fl ee their homes with the most recent volcanic eruption in that country. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR, WATT: Mr.

Speaker, I directed a question a moment ago to the Minister in charge of the Telephone System, which apparently my question was in some conflic t with the question one of the other members on this side of the House, but I think . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. WATT: I direct my question then, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Highways. I ask the Minister of Highways, has the Manitoba Telephone System been authorized to charge for station-to-station long distance calls, the calls being received or accepted by a mechanical device which simp ly states by recorded announcement that a message may be recorded?

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BURTNlAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I am not really sure whether that is the case or not, I'll take that as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. WILLIAM URUSKI (St. George): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to place a ques tion to the First Minis ter and ask him whether a formula has been devised regarding northern economic development and projects dealing with Hydro development in Northern Manitoba re garding compensation and the like? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Ministe r. MR. SCHREYER : Well, Mr.

Speaker, there has been indication in the past to the effect that the Crown must stand ready to meet claims adjudicated for damage and there has been indi cation of intent with respect to the dedication of certain of the water rentals that the Crown receives from Hydro-electric Development. I believe this was referred to last week. When we are in a position to make a definitive statement in this respect we shall do so and hopefully that could be in short order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR, SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

Will adjudication of compensation for the residents of Southern Indian Lake be applied on the same basis as expropriation -- the principle of expropriation as applied on the basis of the people who have their land taken away from them? MR, SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, insofar as handling the matt er in a way analogous to land expropriation, first of all, Sir, it must be pointed out that the amount of land that will be inundated will be relatively small and I don't believe any of it will be near settled or inhabited areas.

Inundation of land on the Rat River system is not land that belongs to anyone in parti cular, it is Crown land I believe. But if there is any damage that is adjudicated to be so, there will be compensation in a way analogous to expropriation procedures in many past years. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary questi on. I wonder if the First Minister could indicate that when an adjudication is to be made what criteria is to be applied? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, that, Sir, I suppose is simply a case of anyone who feels that he has evidence of damage caused to property or to livelihood will then submit a claim and have it presented in the same way as in the case of any claim for damage against the Crown in many transactions over many past years; and assist ance for making such present ation of claim, legal counsel, etc., the cost of that will be borne by the Crown as well. That too has been indicated in the past. MR. SPIVAK: I would like to ask the First Minister who will make the adjudic ation?

MR, SCHREYER: It will be a body, Sir, extra or outside of the executive branch of government -- that is to say it will be a judi cial hody similar in nature and operation to ju dicial bodies that have adjudicated compensation claims on expropriation in the past. County Court is perhaps the most probable exampl e.

1512 April 9, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder if the First Minister could indicate whether there will be a right of appeal from that adjudication? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, we have two examples of past precedent, one being resorting to the reference to County Court for this adjudic ation from which appeals presu mably were allowed under certain circumstances in points of law I su ppose, I'm not certain. The other exam ple, Sir, is the establishment in years gone by of a quasi-judicial entity, such as was headed, for example, by Mr.

Elswood Bole, to deal with claims for damage caused during flood. That would be a second course of action open, but in either case it would be judicial or quasi-j udicial in nature with appeal under certain known circumstances. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsl and. MR. JE AN ALLARD (Rupertslan d) : Well, Mr. Speaker .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. A supplementary quest ion? MR. SPIVAK: Yes. In view of the answer and in view of the example that' s been given with respect to Mr. Elswood Bole, I wonder if the First Minister then can indicate that there will in fact be an appeal allowed?

In the case of Mr. Bole' s situation there was no appeal allowed. MR, SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, in the case of the res ponsibilities with which Mr. Elswood Bole had been charged, I do not recall, Sir, whether there was appeal allowed under certain circumstances or not. I will have to check that. But clearly the intent would be to proceed on the basis of stare decisis. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ruperts land. MR. ALLARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a quest ion for the First Minister on the subject referred to.

Will the criteria for establishing compensation be based on the principle of compensation for an asset or compensation for damages; compensation for an asset as in the case of expropriation of land, or compensation for damages as in the case of the flooding of the Red River? And there's a vast differenc e. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR, SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, both I should think. If there is damage to assets that will be obviously compensatible; there would be claims submitted and adjudicated.

Com pensation for damages relative to assets or relative to livelihood would also be submitted by way of claim. The intention is to have moneys available for those contingencies by way of a ded ication of the water rental royalties from the diverted water, and that precise formula is something which will be announced in very short course I hope. MR. ALLARD: A sup plementary, Mr. Speaker.

Are we then to assume that the value of the asset itself would be taken into consideration in es tablishing compensation in the sense that the people of the north will have not only the ordinary rights of Mani tobans, but prior rights as northerners to an asset which is really a northern one? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, that principle is in many ways a two-edged sword. Still there is recognition of the need to acknowledge that the resource base of the north inso far as it is relatable and has related to the residents of the many primary resource base communities of the north ought to be so acknowledged.

In other words, Sir, there is the -- 1 believe this has been made clear -- there will be a dedication of the water royalty -- the water rental royalties received by the Crown would be dedicated to meet the compensation and beyond that, to meet the resource development, economic development needs of the people of those communities. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland, last supplementary. MR.

ALLARD: Will the level of such royalties be u.nder the control of those who will be using the service specif ically -- will the northern people have a serious say in setting the level of su ch royalties which will be at the service of all Manitobans? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, there are two parts to that. With respect to the level of the water rental royalties, that is not su bject to fluctuatio n. That has existed for many years.

There is a very def inite formula and the formula would be applied with respect to the volume of diverted water as it generates energy in the Nelson plants, and the amount of that water rental would be calcu lated out on the basis of the existing formula, long existing formula, and would be then available for the compensation needs and the development needs beyond that of these communities. And it is in this latter respect, Sir, that there would be, ideally

April 9, 1973 1513 ORAL QUE STION PERIOD MR. SCHREYER cont'd) .•... speaking, meanin gful involvement and participation by repre sentatives of those areas and those communit ies. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR, ASPER: To the First Minister, following the same line. In view of the fact that the rights in many, many cases, the majority of cases, the rights that ... MR. SPEAKER: Ques tion please? MR.

ASPER: ... give rise to the compensation that the First Minister has been refer ring to, don't exist in law, will the First Minister assu re this House that during this sess ion he will present legislation establishing those rights to compensation? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, rights -- I am one of those, rightly or wrongly, I have never felt convinced that rights can be bes towed by statute law. They either exist as a matter of natural law or they don't.

In the case of these people it is acknowledged that there is need for the CroWI1 to recognize that these people living in communities that have been dependent on primary resources in the area.

To the extent that there is distu rbance there must be steps taken to offset whatever loss there might be in terms of value of primary resources and that is why we have spoken in terms of the dedication of the water rental royalties which would be paid in perpetuity for as long as the turbines spin, I sup pose, would be the new idiom, and that amount, Sir, over the years will be more than suf ficient to cover compensation real. and direct and would be available for general economic development and social uplift. MR, ASPER: To the First Minister.

Is the First Minister suggesting to the House that the rights that give rise to the compensation that he's descr ibed, will be discr etionary in the hands of government or will be fixed by law? MR, SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the indication I have given is one that will be embodied, Sir, and whether it be embodied in statute or whether it be embodied in agreemen t or in regu lations is another matter. I am not aware whether statute law means that it is -- my honour able friend knows it does not mean that it becaomes like the laws of the Medes and the Persians, it can never be changed again.

So my honourable friend, I do not accept the thesis that it is neces sary to proceed in that manner necessarily. MR. ASPER: The quest ion, and perhaps I'm not being clear, Mr. Speaker, but I'll try it again. The ques tion is, that the right does not exist to compensation . MR. SPEAKER: Order please . MR. ASPER: . • . in view of the fact . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . May I remind the honourable member that he is to place a question, not to place a debate before the House. MR.

ASPER: In view of the fact that the rights do not exist unless created, does the Minis ter intend to pass some Act to create the rights which he intends to compensate? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker , this is being proceeded with on the basis of a perceived obligation, statute law is not a necessa ry feature of it. It would not enhance nor detract from the obligation that is perceived and which will be formalized and proceeded on. MR, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. OR DERS OF THE DAY - SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAKER: First Order for Return was the Honourable Member for Morris which is being held in my name.

On Thursday, March 29th the Honourable Member for Morris moved for the consideration of the House an Order for Return requesting certain information with respect to Western Flyer Coach Industries.

The Honourable Minis ter of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management in his capacity of House Leader raised a point of order - (Order, please) -- regarding the admissi bility of the proposed motion and quoted from Bourinot's Parliamen tary Procedure Fourth Edition, Page 253, which reads in part as follows: "A document of which it is proposed to order a copy must relate to matter within the proper jurisdiction of parliament.

" The Honourable House Leader has pointed out that while Western Flyer Coach Indust ries is one in which the Government of Manitoba owns considerable shares the corporation is not a fully owned Crown corporation, therefore the information sought by the Honourable Member for Morris is of a nature which would readily made available through the process of the Economic Development Committ ee. The point raised by the Honourable Member for Morris is that the rules of our House provide that a Minister may indicate that the government either accept or rejects an Order for Return. If refused the member has the

1514 April 9, 1973 ORDERS OF THE DAY - SPEAKER'S RULING (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) •.... alternative of redraf ting the Order, accepting the deci sion of the government or having the matter transferred for debate during private members' hour. I thank the honourable gentlemen for the positions they advance and find merit in each. In deliberating on this matter I find that in 1963 Madam Speaker Forbes in ruling on a motion by the then Leader of the New Democratic Party for an Order for Return ref erred to Beauch esne's Parliamen tary Rules and Forms and Cit ations, Citation 171(ff).

Since Cit ation 171 sets out the guidelines for questions, oral or written, the House by upholding the Speaker's ruling at that time appears to regard Orders for Return as a form of written que stion. Acc epting the foregoing one must then determine what is within the proper jurisdiction of parliament. May I then direct the attention of the honourable members to Citation 171, sub

section (dd) of Beauchesne, which reads: "A quest ion oral or written must not, (dd) deal with matters not officially connected with government or parliament or which are of a private nature. Here the matter is in two parts. In perusing the question of the Honourable Member for Morris one can conclude by the way it is worded that it impinges on private matter s of the Western Flyer Coach Industries . At the same time by the Honourable House Leader' s ad mission that the government is a shareholder of Western Flyer Coach Industries would thus to a degree officially connect it and creates an impasse or non-answer.

In view of the fore going the Chair is of the opinion that the As sembly would wish to adjudicate on this matter in conformity with our Rule 49 which allows ample scope for express ion of opinions and will of the Ass embly and the memb ers. Consequently I am allowing the admis sibility of the Order for Return of the Honourable Member for Morris. The Order for Return is accepted. Does the Honourable House Leader wish to indicate his acceptance or does he wish to transfer it for debate ? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like this matter transferred on the basis that the government while prepared to give this information, as I indicated to my honourable friend, is not prepared to give it on an Order for Return. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. MR, JORG ENSON: Just on a minor point or order but it may be significant. I'm not sure whether our rules provide that a Minister of the Crown can transfer a -- (Interjection) - No, that• s not true. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR, JORGE NSON: My point of order is, simply that I don't think that it is up to a Minister to transfer for debate.

He either accepts it or rejects it and then the member who is moving the motion can transfer it for debate if he chooses. I'm not going to have to be forced to debate it if I don't choose to. I think that• s my prerogative rather than the Minister' s. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, then the honourable member is quite correct, the honourable member is correct. I indicated, Mr. Speaker, that the government is rejecting this Order, not because it does not want to supply the information but it feels that thi s is not a matter within the legislative competence of the House.

I am going to give the honourable member the inform ation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGEN SON: Mr. Speaker, did I understand the Minister to say that he's going to provide the information for me ? MR. GREEN: Yes, I did, Mr. Speaker. I indicated that the last day it came up. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROE SE : I would take it that the same information would also be available to other members if they so indicate and I so indicate right now that I would appreciate having it too. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I have indicated that there is no objection to giving the information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside) : Point of order, just for further clarification. I then understand that the government is accepting this Order for Retu rn? Don't you think that• s the basis that the Honourable Member for Morris . . . MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. gpeaker, with great respect, I have indicated that the govern ment is not accepting this Order for Return. I'm willing to give the information to my

April 9, 1973 1515 ORDERS OF THE DAY - SPEAK ER' S RULING (MR, GREEN cont• d) . . • . . honourable friend. With great respect to your ruli ng, Sir, I am unable to give to the House information on Tantalum Mines although we have some shares in it. I am unable to give information on Chemalloy although we have some shares in it. Since Your Honour has ruled that I have to give information on all these companies which we may have a share in .. . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member is debating the issue now. MR. GREEN: .•. I am unable to accept that Order for Return.

I will give the inform ation but am unable to accept the Order for Return. It's silly, absolutely silly. MR. SPEAKER: In other words the Order for Return has not been accepted? The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORG ENSON: I ju st want to make it clear. The Minister has said that he, although the Order for Return is not accepted, he is going to provide me with the information? MR. GREEN: And any other honourable member, yes. But that we cannot accept the fact that governm ent is re sponsible for providing this information on an Order for Return. ORDERS FOR RETU RN MR.

SPEAKER: Proposed motion for an Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: On the matter, I think it' s worthy to have this absolutely clear. What will take place now is that this kind of information will be privately made . . . MR, SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. Order , please. Order, please. The answer was given; the House I believe understands. If the honourable member has a particular difficulty he•ll have to confer privately. We are not debating Orders for Return at the present moment. The Honourable House Leader.

MR, GREEN: I certainly don't wish this to be misu nderstood as the Honourable Member for Lakeside apparently wishes it to be. The information will be provided publicly because I told my honourable friend that it will be provided publicly. But, Mr. Speaker, with the greatest respect to you, we cannot accept it as a governmental re sponsibility to provide inform ation for a private corporation in which we happen to have a shareholding, and rather than appeal your ruling I am refusing the Order. If it' s debated we will debate it on that basis.

On the other hand, we are perfectly happy to give the honourable fri end the information. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Brandon West for an Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, THAT an Or der of the House do Issue for a Return Showing the following information: The latest audited annual reports for the following Corporations in which Manitoba Development Corporation holds an equity position: Flyer Industries Limite d; Saun ders Aircraft Corporation Limited ; Macey Foods Limited; Morden Fine Foods Limited; Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. ; Leaf Rapids Corporation; Phoenix Data Systems Ltd. ; Mi sawa Homes of Canada Ltd. ; Alpham etrics Ltd. ; Tantalum Mining Corporation of Canada Limited. MOTION presented. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, provided the information contained in the honourable memb er' s statem ent is correct, that we hold an equity in each company, which I as sume is correct, that we will provide a Return to this Order. MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Thompson, Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR, BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Rhineland, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information with respect to The University of Manitoba and The University of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have the concurrence of the House to add on Brandon University which was not put on there? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member have the concurrence of the House to add on Brandon University? (Agreed)

1516 ORD ERS FOR RETURN MR. BOROWSKI: Thank you. 1. The number of Manitoba born professors employed at each University. 2. The number of Canadian born professors employed at each University. 3. The number of non-Canadian professors employed at each University. April 9, 1973 4. The number of professors employed at each University who are U. S. citizens. 5. The number of the above mentioned U. S. professors who are draft- dodgers. 6. The number of the above mentioned U. S. professors who are deserters from military service. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if you could tell pork chop to stop beating his gums while I'm trying to read my Order for Return. No. 7 . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. BOROWSKI: 7. The number of U. S. citizens who are employed by those Universities in non-academic positions -- i. e. ; administrative, etc. 8. The number of U. S. citizens employed at these Universities who do not pay any Canadian Income Tax. 9. The number of U. S. citizens who are registered as students at each of the Uni- versiti es. 10. The number of students mentioned in 9 above who are draft-dogers. 11.

The number of those students who are deserters from military service. 12. The number of those students who are receiving student aid, welfare, unemploym ent insurance provided by the federal or provincial governments or employed on projects fina nced by public fun ds. 13. The number of professors employed at those Universities who are not Canadian citizens and who have applied for Canadian citizenship, MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I raise a question of order on this Order for Return .

The University like a private corporation is not required to give this information to the Honourable Minister. It is not within the legislative competence of the government to demand that of the universi ty, theref ore I would ask you to rule this motion out of order. MR. SPEAKER: I have considered the matter and I had in mind to question whether this was admis sible but I wanted to see what the mood of the House was. Since the Honourable House Leader has raised the objection it butt resses my own opinion, therefore I do rule the question out of order. The Honourable . . . MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that the matter is not debatable. MR. SPEAKER: That• s right. MR. BOROWSKI: That means that the only re . . . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, my understa nding is that if it is ruled out of order it is not debatable. It is only debatable if it is put and it is refused on the basis that government doesn't wish to provide the information. If the motion is out of order it is not debatable. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. ::vIR. FROE SE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think if the motion was not accept able then the Minister shouldn't have replied in the first place.

By having the Minister speak on it I think it' s already accepted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Offi cial Opposition I would have to concur with the statement ju st made by the House Leader. The question of whether or not a matter such as this is debatable is only if the government decides that they refuse to give that inform ation but presumes that it is within the competence and within the jurisdiction of this Chamber to ask that question in the first instance. I would have to concur with the House Leader in this instance. MR.

SPEAKER: Well if honourable members had been list ening I said that I had trepid ations in regard to this Order and I wanted to see what the mood of the House was. Since there was objection raised I concurred with my own particular first opinion that the question

April 9, 1973 1517 OR DERS FOR RE TURN (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) •.••. was not admissible. Therefore I'm not accepting it as an Order for .Return and consequently it's not debatable. The Honourable House Leader. l\iR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I wonder .. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BORO WSKI: I, �ve no alternative but to challenge your ruling. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. Does the honourable member have support? Will the ruling of the Chair be sust ained ? MOTION presented and carried. MR. BOROWSKI: Ayes and nays, Mr. Speaker. MR, GREEN: Does the honourable member have support? MR.

SPEAKER: Call in the member s. �der please. The question before the House, shall the Chair be sus tained in its ruling. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Messrs. Adam Barrow Boyce Burtniak Desjardins Doern Einarson Enns Ferguson Gonick Gottfried Green Messrs. Hanusc hak Messrs. Allard Asper Barkman Borowski Messrs. MR, CLERK: Yeas 37; Nays 7. Henderson Jenkins Johannson Jorgenson McGill McGregor McKenzie Mackling Malinowski Miller Moug NAYS Froese G. Johnston Patrick Messrs. Paulley Pawley Peturs son Schreyer Shafransky Spivak Toupin Turnbull Mrs. Trueman Messrs.

Uruski Uskiw Walding Watt MR. SPEAKER: In my opinion the Yeas have it, I declare the motion carried. The Honourable House Leader. SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILL S MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you'd call in order the second reading of government bills. There are two bills, 25 and 24. MR. SPEA KER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour, Bill No. 18. The Honourable Minister for Emerson. MR. PAULLEY: No, that stands, Mr. Speaker. 18 stands. BILL 25 MR. MAC KLING presented Bill No. 25,

an Act to amend the Mortgage Brokers and Mortgage Dealers Act for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney -General. MR. MACKL ING: Mr. Speaker, honourable membe rs will recall that in 1971 we enacted a new Mortgage Brokers and Mortgage Dealers Act which was proclaimed last year after the necessa ry regulations were prepared and passed. Some of the sections of this amending bill

15is April 9; 19'73 BILL 25 (MR. MAC KLING cont'd) .. .. . correct a minor oversight in the original legislation and the last part of the bill permits mortgage dealers to keep their trust accounts with credit unions. At present they are limited to charter.ed banks and trust companies. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Brandon West . . MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Arthur that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and passed. BILL 24 MR. USKIW presented Bill No. 24,

an Act to amend the Crop Insurance Act for second reading . MOTION presented. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, this is a bill that actu ally is an attempt to tidy up the legislation to provide a degree of flexibility on the part of the insurer which he did not have to this point in time, Under the present Act one has to have insurance or the complete crop insurance program on every field on which he applies for hail insu rance coverage.

Thi s pa:r;ticular amendment will allow any farmer to insure any part of his holdings for hail insur ance or for protection against hail notwithstanding the fact that he may only have one or two fields insured under the all-risk program. So it• s really extending the program and giving the farmer greater flexibility. The other amendment is really correcting an inadvertence, it's a technical amendment in the area of

definitions and I don't think that it's worthy of spending our time debating it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and passed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON, RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Tran scona): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and passed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. CO MMITT EE OF SUPPLY - AGRICU LTURE MR. CHAIRMAN : Resolution lO (b)(l) -- The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, when we were last on this particular item I was speaking on it and at that time the Minister took exception to the fact that I did not have a copy of the Press release from which I was quoting. I now have a copy of the Press release and find it even more interesting than what I had first supposed. I made one mi stake for which I apologize.

I said that the statement was made in Brandon; it was not, it was made in Winnipeg at a meeting of the Farm Bureau, and I will quote some of the sections of the Press release which comes from the Winnipeg Free Press. I might also add that there was an account in the Winnipeg Tribune of the same date, November 28, 1972. The statement goes on to say, "L ow Cost Help Out - Uskiw.

Farmers can no longer depend on tactical enslave ment for low-cost farm labour and are going to have to pay a premium for farm workers, - Manitoba Agricultural Minister Sam Uskiw said here Monday. 'I suggest you put out of your head the idea that you can get labour at a lower cost than other indu stries, ' Mr. Uskiw said. He was speaking to delegates at a quarterly meeting of the Manitoba Farm Bureau. Mr.

Uskiw said that paying a farm worker $400 a month plus room and board may sound like a good deal but it really isn't so good when the employee is expected to work 16 hours a day. 'This is really tactical enslavem ent, ' he said. The Minister said the problem of farm labour

April 9, 1973 1519 SUPPLY - AGRICU LTURE (MR. JORGENOON cont'd) ..•.. is compounded because many people don't es pecially want to work on the farm s. He said that while the farmer himself may be willing to work 16 hours a day on his own farm, another person will not unle ss he• s very interested in agriculture. ,, Pres ent provincial labour laws exclude farm work from the provisions of the minimum wage. Then he goes on to say: "M r.

Uskiw said he doubted if farm er s would want to employ many of the people on welfare because they would not likely be good farm workers; many are alcoholic s or have drug problems, and I don't think you• d want them on you r fa rms. 1 However', he said 'one possible solution is now being considered by the provincial government• " -- and then he goes on to explain what he has in mind.

That• s how the Minister in chastising the Member for Portage la Prairie a while ago, he said, that if he'd made one telephone call to the Manitoba Government Employees Ass ociation he could have found out for himself ju st exactly what was said. The Minister obviously has taken great exception to this reported account of his in the newspapers. I took the trouble to make a few telephone calls to various people who were at that meeting · and to a large extent they confirmed what the Press report has stated.

The Minister has a habit and he' d done this -- and it' s charac teristic not oruy of the Minister of Agriculture who is a master at it, but it seems to be characteristic of most of my honourable friends opposite. They make speeches, and as reported in the Country Guide ju st recently the Minister made the statement there and I must concur with him. He said when he was a young boy he often argued politics and he said I admit now that I often did n't know what I was talking ahout. That particu lar characteristic has not foresaken him. He very frequently doesn't know what he' s talking about now. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister very frequently makes statements off the cuf f such as these and then has a very convenient habit of blaming the press. I have never know a government that have complained so much about being mis quoted as honourable gentlemen opposite. - (Interjection)-- Well my honourable friend Minister says for good reason. If my honourable friend is afraid of being misquoted then perhaps he mig ht take a suggestion that is often followed by Federal Cabinet Ministers, and that is that they have texts of their remarks which they pass out to the press where there is no opportunity of mi squoting.

But this is a very convenient device and I've often se en him use it. --(Interjection)-- I wonder if my honourable friend will wait until I'm through. If he wants to speak he' s going to have plenty of opportunity because this debate as he knows is a debate in which we can participate back and forth and for just once I would like to be able to complete my remark s without some of the interjections that almost invariably come from the other side.

My honourable friend could iss ue texts of his remarks to make sure that he wasn't being misquoted; there are many ways that he can make sure that the remarks that he makes don't sound so foolish when they come into the press. And one way is not to make so many foolish rema rks. Sometimes the Minister, and I'v e often heard him myself at various meetings, making statements of that nature, and often wondered why the press don't report him a little more frequently because of some of the somewhat asinine that he is capable of making from time to time.

But I rise only, Sir, because the Minister of Labour who exorcised himself so unduly the other day because I didn't have a copy of the particular news release, I have it now and I've placed it on the record so my honourable friend will know that I was quoting from an

article that I had seen and I won't go to the trouble of putting the similar news report from the Tribune on the record because they' re pretty much the same. I do say, Sir, that the Minister has made statements with regard to what the government plans to do insofar as farm labour is concerned. We all know that it's a serious problem in this province and he' s not making it easier with the kind of policies that the government are following. There are ways that farm labour can be obtained and there are people that are willing to work on the farm s.

One of the great drawbacks that we have at the present to obtaining farm labour is the kind of interference that the government insists on bringing about between those who wish to work on farms and those who wish to employ them . I suggest to the Minister that if he is to bring about any degree of assista nce to the farm economy, why the greatest effort that the government can put forth is to stop creating policies that have the effect of increasing costs to the farm er. That is going to be the real problem that fa rmers are going to be faced with in

1520 April 9, 1973 SUPPLY - AGRICUL TURE (MR. JORG ENSON cont'd) ..... the next year or so. I submit, Sir, notwithstanding the new levels at which prices of farm products have risen, that it will be a matter of very short time that farm costs are going to reach a new plateau as well, and the difficulty is that those . farm costs will remain at that plateau

whereas farm prices will drop because world markets will fluctuate from time to time and there is no way that a farmer; once he has established a level of production can convelli.ently cut back and expect to stay in bu siness. The Minister has mi13read, completely misread the mood of the fa rmers of this province, the problems of the farm ers in this province, and he has completely misjudged the action that is required to solve th<?se· problems . . MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Morris is as phoney as the newspaperman who gave that account. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. JORGENSON: I was very careful to ref rain from using any remarks that would warrant that kind of remark from the Minister. Now if he has got any objections that he wants to have to the remarks I make, that• s fine, I have no quarrel with that, but I leave it to you, Sir, that that kind of a personal remark is not permitted in this Chamber. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the point is well taken. The Honourable Minister please withdraw his remark. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I want to point out how ridiculous my honourable friend is MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order, please.

I think the remark is one that the Honourable Minister should reconsider and withdraw. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps for the record I will withdraw the remark, but by tabling documents which I have here, that those statements perhaps might be ju stified in due course. The Member for Morris takes a great deal of satisfaction out of a newspaper account having to do with a -- not a speech of mine, Mr.

Chairman, but a sort of informal question and answer type of meeting that was held between myself and the Farm Bureau some time ago, I have the copy of the press statement here and I also have one, a copy of the Tribune accounting, and one will notice. Mr. Speaker, that in the accounting given to that particular discussion by the Tribune there is no such allegation as one would find on the front page of the Winnipeg Free Press of the same date. Now I believe -- I don't have the specific date, Mr. Chairman, no. I can find out for my honourable friend and advise him later. But nevertheless, Mr.

Speaker, it is true that we had a very frank discussion on the question of farm labour, but I want to read into the record, Mr. Chairman, a letter which I received from the Union of Manitoba Municip alities as a result of this newspaper account. It's from J. C. Scott, Secretary Manager, dated December 4th. It says "D ear Mr.

Uskiw: I have been approached by a considerable number of people who upon reading the press report were disturbed by your remarks when speaking to the delegates of the Manitoba Farm Bureau on Monday, November 27, 1972. 'T actical enslavemen t. ' Do you as Minister of Agriculture and a man of agricultural background really believe that fa rmers employ skilfully planned methods for gain when acquiring their necessa ry farm labour ?

Your proposal for a manpower pool for agriculture whereby labourers would be on the provincial payroll and available to farmers we believe is a sign of mistrust to the farmer and the agricultural industry on the whole, and the fact that it implied the farmer cannot be trusted to negotiate for their own farm needs. People who are engaged in the agricultural industry know that elements of weather govern in great part the business of farm ing and sixteen hours a day may be neces sary at intervals during the seeding and harvesting operations but I am not sure it is by no means standard practice.

I shall be pleased to receive your commen ts. Yours truly, J. C. Scott". Mr. Speaker on December 12th I replied to that letter, and I think this reply will serve to indicate to my honourable friend the kind of message that is long overdue to him. This is a letter from my office to Mr. J. C. Scott, dated December 12th. "D ear Mr. Scott: I would like to acknowledge your letter of December 4, 1972 regarding farm labour pools. I understand that my Executive Assis tant, Gordon Peitsch, already called you to clarify the

April 9, 1973 1521 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR, USKIW cont'd) ..... misu nderst anding. Firstly , the term •t actical enslavemen t' was a distortion which only the Free Press can answer for. I spoke to the press reporter who wrote the subject

article and who agreed to is sue a retract ion, but to my knowledge has not yet done so. I did make comments recognizing the fact that competent farm labour is almost impossible to obtain, especially in peak seasons such as seeding and harvest. To meet this need I suggested the establishment of a farm labour pool composed of experienced men who are available for hire by individual fa rmers. To reduce complications for medical, unemployment insurance and pension benefits I suggested that member s of the labour pool be paid by the government who would in turn bill the farm ers.

In this manner, several different far mers could hire help for short periods with a minimu m of complications, regarding records experienced by farmer and worker. There is by no means any intention to interfere with individual fa rmers hiring their own labour. The plan would simply be intended to help fa rmers in their desperate requirem ent for competent hired help. Hopefully some training could be included in this total concept to assure competent help.

May I also take thi s opportunity to su ggest that you should not question my intent or integrity, but rather the intent and credibility of the Winnipeg Free Press. I am sure you would appreciate news media which reflects true happenings in its reporting as opposed to allowing yourself to sink to new lows as evidenced by the

article referred to in your letter. Only corrupt and dirty minds whose motives are questi onable could put out such disgusting stories in the name of news reporting. Yours truly. " And I signed that letter, Mr . Chairman. Now, it is true that a number of statements were made, questions were put and answers were given; and it is true that some of those words reported were used, but it' s the context in which they were used that is important, Mr. Chairman.

My whole point in dealing.with the question of hours of work, the question of whether one is enslaved or not, had to do with com ments made to me by farm workers which I was relating to that meeting. It was not a state ment of mine; and obviously any newspaper man that wanted to have some fun could have taken those comments out of context, Mr . Chairman, and could have brought about this kind of ridiculou s story. The Member for Morris knows that.

I'm not sure if he was, but I know his colleagues were at a number of similar meetings wherein this que stion was discussed and they fully appreciate the context in which this point was discussed. I would think that it would be a credit to the Member for Morris if he would desist from engaging on the marginal side of the fac ts, Mr. Chairman, and dealt more fully with the truth of the matter. I think his constituents, Mr. Chairman, would appreciate a little bit more credibility than has been forthcoming from their repres entation in this house.

Now I did take the trouble to phone this reporter and he did say that he was going to put in a correction. After a few days when it didn •t appear I phoned him again and he indicated to me that since I had no text I really couldn't prove what I said or didn' t say and theref ore it was my word against his and that he would leave his story stand. And my honourable friend here picks that point up and suggests that I should have had a text in a que stion and answer situation, a bearpit sessi on. That' s absolutely ridiculous and ncmsensical. The honourable member knows better than that.

He knows that you're not in a position to presume the kind of questions that will be answered and ther eby cannot have a text prepared accordingly. So I would sugg est, Mr. Chairma n, that the Member for Morris do a little more of his home work, a little more res earch, and having done that, pur sue his objectives with a greater degree of integrity than he has over the years, and in particular in this instance, because it would do him a lot of good as well. MR.

JORGENSON: I have now received a lecture from the Minister of Agri culture on integrity and I don't intend to lecture the Minister but I will say this to him. That when he makes statements such as he was reported as making in this meeting -- and I took the trouble to phone people who were at that meet ing, they verified it, they verified it Sir, and said that those statements were actua lly made. And that• s what he was cautioning the Member for Portage to do. He said if he'd taken the trouble to make a telephone call, which I did. He complains that I didn' t do any research. I did a lot of research.

That' s what• s bothering my honourable friend is the fact that I'v e done too much research on this and it begins to hurt him. My honourable friend, if he'd stop making foolish statements he would stop getting foolish

1522 April 9, 1973 SUPPLY - AGRICULT URE (MR, JORGE NSON cont'd ) ..... press and he would have nothing to complain about. MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Chairman, I would ju st like to make a few comments in support of what the Member for Morris has just said. I have also read the reports from both the Winnipeg Free Press and the Tribune and from other sources, and I have also talked with some of the members of the Farm Bureau that were at that meet ing. But what I would like to say at this moment, Mr .

Chairman, is that I'm at a loss to equate what the Minister has ju st said about the press, in reporting the press statement as being phoney. The other day, Mr.

Chairman, we listened to the Member for East Brandon, the Honourable Member of Industry and Commerce for 40 minutes, read from the Winnipeg Free Press and the Winnipeg Tribune statements that fitted into the thinking apparently of the govern ment on that side of the House, and the government constantly lauded the Member for East Brandon time after time as he read excerpts from both the Winnipeg and Free Press, -- which apparently were factual at that time and were not phoney, in support of the government.

But on the other hand today we. find now that reports from the press are irre sponsible and phoney, and I'm just wondering and I would like to ask the Minister if today the press, speaking in support or writing in support, or quoting in support all members of the government, are completely with integrity, and if tomorrow or the day after they are not, because they report adversely what the Minister or a Minister has said? I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, that the reports from the press as I understand it in the Farm Bureau are very close, if not exactly what was said at the meeting that day, and that a great deal of harm has been done throughout the Province of Manitoba so far as agriculture labour is concerned and there is not a farmer in the province that is not aware of it. (Hear, hear) MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR, EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make a very few comments on this particular subj ect.

I didn' t, from memory I wasn't absolutely certain as to when this state ment was made by the Minister but I do recall it coming over the farm broadcast last fall, and I have asked a number of fa rmers as to whether they recalled this statement being made, and I'm not here, to stand up here to criticise the Minister in such a way that I want to destroy him but I want to put on the record, Mr. Chairman, the comments that he' s made and I know many people said it came over the farm broadcast.

I would suggest that the Minister himself should have got on it, you know, through the farm broadcast because very many farm ers hear this throughout the rural parts of Manitoba -- would come out and stated his exact position, probably given a written statement as to exactly what he said and what he mea nt. And I want to reiterate too, Mr .

Chairman, from what my colleague from Arthur said, that we have a very critical situation insofar as labour is concerned in Manitoba, and in fact it has a psycho logical effect to people who are interested in going out and working in the country are given the imp ression that my God fa rmers are slave drivers and that they've got to work 16 hours a day, and this has given the impression that this goes on all through the year, which is ju st not a fact Mr. Chairman.

In the springtime when we are putting our crops in, which is a couple of weeks, in harvest time when we are spending two weeks to three weeks taking it off, is the only time of the year that you might put in some extended hours, and in most cases, far mers are prepared to remunerate those hours for help. I think Mr. Chairman that we have a situation here where something should be said to clarify this matter, because it is a serious matter. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker --(Interjec tion)-- or Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the debate that went on about whether or not the Minister made certain statements at a meeting but I would like to refer to the matter that the Minister brought up as a matter of privilege earlier in the afternoon and that is the premise that I think he is operating on, and I guess it will be government policy in that Cabinet Mini sters are activ ely encouraging civil servants to work or to act sympathetically. . .

April 9, 1973 POINT OF ORDER MR. USKIW: On a point of order, my honourable friend is debating that question. MR. C HAIRMAN: What would you like ? MR. USKIW: My point of order, Mr. Chairman, is that we are now on a specific resol ution and the Member of Portage la Prairie is introducing a totally different matter entirely. 1523 MR. CHAIRMAN: The point is well taken. I think Rule 64 of our House Rules 64( 2) Speeches in the Committee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clauEe under discussion. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, with respect to your suggestion we'r e talking about people who worked indirectly, or who are going to work for farmers but are steered there by government activity, and I want to talk about the attitude of civil servants and people like this who are beholden to the government for their jobs, and what the govern ment policy is with regard, --(Interjection)-- beholden exactly what I say. I'm talking about if a civil servant refuses or declines to act politically for the administration what is his status in the Civil Service in the future ? That' s what I want to di scuss at this time. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minist er of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: On a matter of the privileges of the civil service of Manitoba I must rise on a point of privileg e, and I believe it is a point of privilege, to object to the inference that the civil servants in Manitoba are beholden to any political faith. A: the present time in legis lation they can't express themselves during the term of an election it is true, but I would ask my honourable friend from Portage la Prairie in fairness to the civil service to take a look and to re-read what he said.

I don' t think my honourable friend meant it really the way he uttered this statement. I hope he didn' t mean it, because I, as the Mini ster responsible for the civil service have every faith in the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba to use their own judgment as to how they conduct themselves as employees of the Province of Manitoba, and I feel obligated as that Minister, Mr. Chairman, to ask my honourable friend to reconsider the remark that he made which is derogatory, I suggest, of the civil service of Manitoba. . . . . . continuted on next page

1524 April 9, 1973 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR . CHA IRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I wish to speak on a matter of privilege and I hope I'm allowed the same latitude that the Minister was allowed when he spoke on privi lege. I have in my hand a document that was read on to the record by the Minister of Agricul ture earlier in the afternoon and I. would like to quote out of this document to substantiate what I'm talking about. And this is in the final paragraph and this is from Mr. Howden the Presi dent of the MGEA, and I quote.

He said "I did report on our concern that the government has indi cated that it was prepared to grant civil servants the right to partici pate visi bly and actively in provi ncial and federal election activity. I reported that we were concerned and that the execu tive opposed this increased freedom in the light of what might rationally be expected to oc cur within the civil service based on historic al evidenc e. " Now, Mr.

Chairman, if this isn't showing concern by civil servants that they're being urged or asked to take a part with respect to helping government instead of doing their job as profess ional people ... MR. PAULLEY: I think what the Honourable Member for Portage has referred to in the letter by Mr. John Howden, the Pres ident of the Manitoba Government Employees Asso ciation, he's express ing a concern which in the opinion of the executive may happen in the future. The references that were made by the Member for Portage la Prairie indicated that such was a privi lege today. Mr.

Howden is taking a different appr? ach entirely. He's prejudging poss ible legis lation . But notwithstanding that, Mr. Chairman, he is making reference to something that may happen or may not happen. My honourable fri end the Member for Portage la Prairie in his remarks indicated that it was happening as of this moment. And there, Mr. Chairman, is why I appeal to my honourable friend the Member for Portage la Prairie to not mix apples with oranges. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I must say that the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Agric ulture are two of my favourite ministers, but this doesn't preclude the fact that the Minister of Agri culture has made remarks publicly that would lead any reasonable per son to conclude that they were bei ng asked to work politically. MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I ask the honourable member to withdraw that. That is not correct. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: The Minister in this House a few days ago said that he spoke at a meeting and gave - I don't know if the term was a "lecture" but he gave a talk, instructions on democratic proceedin gs, to members of his Department. Well this is something unusual for a Minister to lecture members of his Department on . . . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I ri se on a point of privilege. MR . aIAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agri culture on a point of privilege. MR. USKIW: The honourable member knows full well that that is not what I said in the House the other day and he's completely dist orting the facts . MR. G.

JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, that's the meaning I took from his remarks. If he wants to clarify what he did say at that meeting, well let him go ahead. But he used the word "democracy", he said he spoke at length to members of his Department on democracy, and what does he mean? That's what many of the civil servants have taken out of the meaning of it, that they are asked to actively support the government and abandon their traditional role as bei ng profess ional civil servants working under whatever administration they may be under at the time.

So I ask the Minister to tell us what he did tell them in his little lecture on democracy. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agri culture. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Portage is again indulging on the very thin and narrow line. In fact he's straying beyond the margin of truth in his allega tions.

I want to say for the record here that the Department of Agri culture holds a number of staff meetings, as should be the case, during the course of. each year, some with small groups, spme with practically the whole department present, and it is the job of the ministry to try and indicate policy to the staff membership.

And in indic ating new polic y it's obvious that it's expected that the staff is going to carry out that policy in that they are working for the adminis tration, the employer, and that is the Government of the day, and my comments were si mply comments related to the fact that we have had for many years in this province changes of govern ment over which there was not a great deal of desire nor need to review polic y, but that in 1969 when, for the first time in the history of this province, this particular government came into

April 9, 1973 1525 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) . . . . . office, that pol icies were being reviewed and new direction was being given and that perhaps where staff did not have clear direction before, that they are in a pos ition now of getting that kind of direction for which they are appreciative, I might say, so that they know the pos ition that they must t.ake. And they have to deliver the polic ies of govern ment throughout the whole system of the department, throughout the whole system of govern ment, not only at the center but regionally all the way through.

The whole thrust bas to be behind the new policies whatever they are, and my inst ructions to them were that these policies that have been recently introduced should be supported whole heartedly by staff who should be developing the necessary program work to implement these policies, and that if an oppos ing administration was to take office this year or five years from now or twenty years from now, that they may very well receive direction that might be quite different from the dire ction they now have and that I would expect that they would even reverse their pos ition in carrying out those instructions in line with the thinking of the government of that day.

That is what the democratic process is all about. And that is not asking civil servants . to support any political party. It's only asking for the full support of the staff in the delivery of policies that are already announced in part of the program of this government. MR. CH AIBMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JO HNSTON: We ll, Mr. Speaker, the Minister spoke at length but I don't think he said a great deal. Could he tell us what radi cal policies he's persuading his staff to implement that are so different philosophically from agric ulture over the past hundred years .

I'm at loss to know what policies would be so radical in agric ulture that would require this kind of a lecture to staff that they must wholeheartedly support his policies. He almost says that they weren't supporting his policies. We're talking about agri culture, we're not talking about philosophies or new ideas and changes in democracy. We're talking about the Department of Agric ulture, and if he's got some radical policies that he thinks he bas to bard-sell into his own department, for goodness' sakes tell us about them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agri culture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I don't think anyone bas to spend too much time responding to that kind of debate because the Member for Portage full well knows, or should know, that there are things changing within the system of government on an almost daily basis, and there is always a degree, a fairly substantial degree of philosophical input into programs and I would want to -- I could list a number of examples, Mr. Chairman.

I could li st a number of examples in any department where there is philosophical input, and probably the most glaring ex.ample is the change in taxation measures if you want to take the Department of Finance as the key department that is leading the way in bringing about measures that reflect abil ity-to-pay prin ciple s in taxation.

There are policies involving agri culture at the pres ent time, with respect to land tenure, that very much deviate from the old policies of the past wherein more emphasis is give n to the needs of people that don't have the capability of borrowing money but where we would want to provide opportunities for those people to enter the industry or to sustain them selves within the industry. Land lease policies, the new policies with respect to the adminis tration of Crown lands, a major departure from the past procedures, again in keeping with the philosophy of the government.

So that let not the Member for Portage la Prairie suggest for one moment, Mr. Chairman, that there bas not been a major change in pol icy and philosophy si nce 1969. MR. CHAlRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKEN ZIE (Roblin) : Mr. Chairman, I find this debate on this item 10 (

b) a most intriguing and interest ing one. I think I was the one that raised the question the other night in the estimates of the Minister to find out if he would clarify what he was talking about regarding farm labour and the shortage of farm labour, and my gosh, Mr.

Chairman, we have enough problems in rural Manitoba today with the dry spring, the meat boycott, shortage of farm labour, high unemployment, and what's so bad about farm life that the Minister of Agri culture bas to go out and make such ridic ulous statements as was quoted in -- I'll quote from the Tribune on it if the Minister will permit me. -- (Interjection) -- Well, he said, Mr. Uskiw said farmers should put out of their heads the idea that farm labour will ever again be available for lower wages than are paid elsewhere.

And I just wonder now, is that the government policy and we must get it read into the record. Now, is the Minister talking about a new labour code, or where are we going on this

1526 April 9, 1973 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) ..... specific item ? Or is the Minister withdrawing that statement and spell ing out the policy again much clearer than it is at the pres ent time, because this is a real gut issu e of rural Manitoba today. The Cabinet Minister . . . stand up and made a state ment and -- I'm assuming that's government policy, and at the same time I'm assuming that the Minister must assume some of the responsibilities for some of the farm problems that we have today, or try and helpfully come up with a policy that will help us to try and solve some of those problems.

And I'm wondering the cost of $8 73, OOO under the item, is that the cost of the labour pool that you're talking about for this program ? Can the Minister explain in more detail what kind of farm labour we're going to have ? Is he indicati ng that there'll be a new code for farm labour, or just what is it all about? It's a matter of serious concern to a lot of people in rural Manitoba today, and if the Minist er is saying that he was misquoted and that's not government policy, I wish he'd stand up and spell it out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROE SE: Mr.

Speaker, the other night when we dis cussed this item I put some questions to the Minister. We haven't yet had answers coming forward. I certainly would like to see a division or the figures given for the various items in that particular vote because we've been talking, or been told, that the STEP Program comes into this. We have an increase of around half a million dollars under this item, and surely enough we as members should know just how is this pool of labour going to function and are we going to subsidize them? Is that the intention, to subsidize the farm labour that will be working under this pool ?

Will this farm labour that we are speaking of come under the civil service ? Will it have any ties ? --(Inter je ction) -- Well, let us hear from the government just how is this pool going to be set up ? Is it go ing to be set up completely as ide from the civil service ? Will you be paying for the enemploy ment insurance and so on ? Certainly we should know when we set up a program and certainly the Minister must have told his representatives at that meeting what kind of a program they were going to initiate. This must have been dis cussed. I think this is probably where some of the misunderstanding came from.

So let's have a clear understanding, let's have a full discussion of this very matter, because we now have the Guidelines of the Seventies which has a whole

chapter on agri culture and on Page 83 we find the statement under -- it says here, "The four princi ples of Guidelines are perhaps more important to farmers than to any other large group of people in Manitoba. " MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order, pleas e. I would refer the honourable member to our Rule 64 (2) . We are on a specific item, not on the Guidel ines. The item we're dis cuss ing here is Community and Family Programs, Other Expenditur es. 10 (b) (2) ... MR. FROESE: Well this is just the very thing.

It says Community and Family Programs and we're setting aside a half a mill ion dollars or more for specific items that we do not know of at this time what it's all about, and when I mentioned the Guidelines for the Seventies, cer tainly here they have an outline as to what some of their intentions are. I just quoted a state ment here and I don't see any reason why we cannot discuss the Guidelines for the Seventies when we're in the Seventies and when this is a report tabled by the government and which has a

section which deals with agriculture, with the very subject that is under dis cussion. So cer tainly, Mr. Chairman, I don't think it's out of order at all to refer to the Guidelines of the Seventies when we discuss a certain matter in the estimates which is dealing with things that are reported on. It says here; "The continued decline of employment opportunities in agri culture must be ended and the growing gap between income and agri culture and other industries must be reversed.

" When we say that the employment opportunities in agri culture must be ended I would like to hear from the Minister further to this whole program. We questioned him the other night what was going to be the cost to the farmer for employ ing people from this pool. I think these are questions that we should have answered too because the farmers back home will be questioning us on this and if we just sit here and do not have these programs explained to us I think we are nuts, and the people will feel the same way.

We should have the answers right here now when we allocate and when we pass large amounts of money, and the total amount under the item is over a million dollars. So let's hear from the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agric ulture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I would want to draw attention to the fact that the accounting of the comments given to the Farm Bureau as shown in the Tri bune is fairly accurate, in fact

April 9, 1973 1527 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) . . . . . is accurate, and the Member for Roblin should not get overly excited and should not read too much into the statement wherein I have suggested tli.at farmers should not expect to get farm labour at lower costs than what labour is paid in any other se ctor. I think that is a true statement of fact. That has nothing to do with government policy.

Whether there is government policy or there isn't government policy, that happens to be the si tuation of the times, and the members oppos ite full well know that it is increas ingly more diffic ult to get farm labour and that it is obvious , it is obvious that we are going to face a si tuation, if we're not already there, of having to pay premium wages to get farm labour. This is where we are and the reason for it is very obvious, Mr. Chairman, the reason for it is very obvious.

There are no, vir tually no students in any sc hool of learning at any level that I'm aware of that have a desire to be an employee of a farmer in this prov ince or in this country. That is not their career; that is not their goal. It so happens by and large that the farm labour force is made up of people that for some reason have not been able to fit in to other sectors in socie ty, to other employment opportunities, and it is almost the residual farm labour or the residual labour force that farmers have to depend on.

This is really the si tuation and members oppos ite know that full well, so that if one is really looking at expertise, if one really wants to get quali fied people to work in agric ulture, to work on farms, one is faced with a si tuation today of having to up the ante, of having to raise the benefits, of having to build into the farm program some security for the farm labourer whether it's unemployment insurance or whether it's compensation programs or whether it's some other form of guarantees, whether it's housing, adequate housing for the farm family that is going to work on that farm.

There are many things that enter into it. And quite unfortunately, the history of our farm labour problem in this province has been one surrounding the minim um wage, surrounding the casual labour force that is available from time to time, is not one of cons istency where you have a block of people available to work in the industry at the farm level. So we have serious problems here and I think the farm community itself, and only the farmers themselves, will have to ri se to the challenge and to meet the needs of the people that will have to work on the farms in the future.

And they wi.11 have to be competitive with indus try, with wage offers in all sectors of the Manitoba economy, or in Canada as a whole I think it applies equally so. Every province has the same problem. So that it's a matter of fact, not a matter of desire; it's a matter of fact and I'm sure the Member for Virden will confirm what I am trying to say here. He has often the same problem as we all do in trying to find farm labour. Quite often we expect too much, Mr. Chairman.

A lot of farm people expect that all of a sudden when they are busy that somehow out of the corners are going to be oodles of farm labourers flowing towards them just becaus e they have a peak period in the springtime when they're putting their crops in, or because they have a peak labour demand in the fall when they are harvesting. What do you do with these people in between those seasons, Mr. Chairman. No one wants to come to grips with that question. So the attempt here is very obvious, Mr.

Chairman, the attempt here is to mve a more systematic approach in trying to deal with this problem, in trying to bridge these gaps. The objective is to initiate, organize and conduct educational programs to further develop agri cultural manpower resources. This is something that has to be an ongoing process. The placement part of it is sort of after the fact, after you've brought about a degree of educational services to the potential clients , are you then in a pos ition to place these people who graduate from these programs on farms.

We have in this particular budget a very si zeable incre ase, as the Member for Rhineland quite rightly points out, and the bulk of the increase, Mr. Chairman, is in the area of agricul tural manpower servic es somewhere in the order of $514, OOO more in this particular aspect of this program, which is almost entirely if not entirely recoverable. I don't know whether I can pick out the revenue si de here. Total recoverable, Mr.

Chairman, is $615 , 900 - no, I'm sorry, $555, OOO out of a $615, OOO item, so that the intent here is to recover a portion from the Canada Manpower people wherein they are involved in the train ing programs, Manpower Development Programs, and the balance is going to be recovered from the farmers who participate in the program. We will be receivi ng full payment for wages and benefits of the Centre - the Man power Centre - through a charge on the farmer that uses those services. So it's not a subsidy program other than in the manpower training area; that is the only area of subsidization.

Now there are many components to this program, but I want to say that where we had one staff person up till this point in time, and I believe members oppos ite when they were in

1528 April 9, 1973 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) ..... government involved themselves in manpower programming for agric ulture, but you know I want to say that they didn't involve themselves enough, Mr. Chair man, because they provided for one staff person to look after the manpower needs of our farming community - one staff person for the whole province. It's quite an interesting thrust, Mr. Speaker, of their time. We have added to that one, ten additional people, five of which will be placement officers, one located in each region, and five clerks to assist the five regional placement officers.

So we're beefing the staff up by ten for a total of eleven. Now my honourable friends want to be criti cal. Mr. Chai rman, I want to say to you that the reason that they are rais ing so much hell here today is because they're embarrassed by the inadequate program that we've had in this province for all those years during which time they were the governing party in this province. They're embarrasse d by the fact that we have sub stantially moved in this direction to try and come to grips wi th a manpower problem that is province-wide. So the Member for Morris should take note, Mr.

Chairman, that I do recog nize why he is uncomfortable, because at some point in time he will have to explain to people in rural Manitoba why it is that in their wisdom it was only necessary to have one person look after the manpower program. A complete farce, Mr. Chairman. We have had a si gnifi cant amount of involvement in the educational

section of manpower programming in co-operation with the Government of Canada - I want to po int out between 10 to 15 farm management courses, of 12 to 15 weeks in length, and 25 to 35 courses of 4 weeks duration in the specific areas of agri cultural production in the year 197 2-73, fairly active in that particular area of manpower and management development. Now the objective of the Manpower Resource Development Program is very obvious.

It's to assist in the development, co-ordination, execution and evaluation of agri cultural education for farmers and farm labourers, and there it's based on a need having been established. This program is a joint program, Mr. Chairman.

It's related to Canada Manpower, Agri cultural Manpower Training in Manitoba, a service co-operates with regional division personnel, Canada Manpower Centre in Winnipeg, Brandon, Portage la Prairie, Dauphin, Steinbach, Selkirk and Morden, and the Department of Colleges and Univers ity personnel in Winnipeg and Brandon in the Canada Man power Tra ining Program - agric ultural train ing. Farm labour placements sometimes neces si tate co-o rdination between Canada Manpower, the Department of Indian Affairs, the Northern Development and Agricultural Manpower Services.

This is sort of the overall scope of the training program. The Manitoba Agric ultural Manpower Committee is composed of representatives from the federal Department of Manpower and Immigration, and Indian Affairs and Northern Develop ment; provincial Departments of Agric ulture, Colleges and Universities; five major farm organizations ; and the committee sets guidelines and recommends programs for the Agric ultural Manpower Service. So that gives you a pretty clear pi cture, Mr. Chairman, of that part of the program.

We have what is known as the 15-week extensive course in farm management where teaching emphasis is in farm business planning, land management, livestock management, agri cultural engineerin g and academic upgrading in mathematics, Engl ish and communications. Course partici pants, twenty in number, are recommended by a local advisory committee on the basis of having the potential of becoming commercial farmers. Instructors are practici ng farmers who have a degree or a diploma in agri culture.

There were 13 such courses held in the winter of 172-73 at Swan River, Gilbert Plains, Roblin, Strathclair, Napinka, Plumas, Treherne, Somerset, Miami, Starbuck, Anola, Selkirk, Ste. Rose du Lac. The four-week intensive course is involved in a number of areas. We have the Beef Production Management Program and thos e programs, or those courses, were held at Oak Lake, Mi niota, Amaranth, Ethelbert, Fi sher Branch, Teulon, Beausejour, and Vi ta. Farm Business and Business Planning Course was held in Boi ssevain, Portage la Prairie, St. Pi erre, Stone wall and Selkirk.

Hog Production Management at MacGregor, Manitou, Minnedosa, Arnot, Ros enfeld and Killarney. Dairy production - Arborg, Grunthal, St. Lazare, Er iksdale, Birnie, Winkler and so on. This gives us a good indication of the intensi ty of our farm management training programs, which is part of this particular budget, Mr. Chairman. We've also had crop production management courses at Lorette, St. Jean, Carberry. It's expected that some 940 farmers will be available, or able to avail themselves of these training programs during the winter of 1973-74, 220 in extensive training in farm management

April 9, 1973 1529 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) ..... and 720 in four-week intens ive training and specific enterprises. That's somewhere in the area of, well, as I said 940 - it's almost a thousand farm units in this province. --(Interjection)-- That's an ongoing program; it's been with us for some time in co-operation with Canada Manpower. Now the program dealing with the Manpower Pool in this province of course is a major new thrust, and there it does involve, as I said earlier, 11 staff man-years, an addition of ten in other words, and a si gnificant amount of money.

Now the intent is that we would use these people to assi st farmers in obtaining qualified labour and in providin g for opportunities for people that are under-employed, unemployed, on welfare, whatever it is, and to give them some opportunity to training as well. It's hoped that this all round global approach to the prob lems of under-employed manpower resources on the one si de of the ledger, Mr. Chairman, and the needs of our farm community on the other side, can somehow be met. Thi.s is the desire of this particular thrust. Now I have to say to my honourable friends that it is indeed a pilot project.

We're going to give it a whirl this year; on the basis of this year's experience we'll determine where we go with this program next year, and surely one would appreciate the importance of learning by partic ipating and hopefully the pil ot will prove to be something very much worthwhile in the long run Now it's obvious that there are many farm people, many people that are still farming but are somewhat under-employed because of the nature of their enterprise, the si ze of their farm, who could be enrolled in this program if they were given the information, if they knew what the wage scale was, if they knew where the demands were, and vice versa, if the farmers requiring this kind of assi stance would know where to get in contact with these people.

And we would be using our offices to facil itate this information flowing both ways and perhaps in arranging for ei ther transportation or whatever from one point in the province to another, so that we can maximize the benefits to both the one seeking employment and to the farmer that requires those services.

There are many people that are semi- retired who have had a lifetime of farm experience, and they too would be people that would be put on the list and would be available to the farmers of Manitoba and hopefully to this program where we introduce people to the farm community, that there will be somewhat of a graduated approach wherein, after a period of time, after an experience has been had as between the employee and the employer and found satisfac tory, that that person no longer has to remain as part of the operations of this Manpower pool but could very well fall into a permanent employment category.

That is really a transitional, the Pool is a transiti onal approach to the problem, and as soon as it seems advisable to move someone out of the Pool and into a permanent pos ition, wherever it may be found, that would be the case. Now the Member for Rhineland raised a number of questi.ons or one in particular, Mr. Chairman, having to do with the rates of pay, and this is something that has yet to be worked out and will be announced fairly soon. Obviously we will not be suggesting that anyone at what ever level is going to be working for less than Manitoba's minim um wage.

That is definite as far as the Pool program is concerned. But there will be a range of incr ements beyond the mini mum wage depending on experience, and that parti cular proposal we have not yet finalized, but hopefully within a matter of weeks we will have that information available and the offices will be able to get into motion and to offer the services. I think, Mr. Chairman, that covers all of the questions that have been put. I suggest to members oppos ite that rather than criticize the entry of government in this area, that they should bend over backwards, Mr.

Chairman, in support of this thrust so that we can deal with the social problems that beset us both in agric ulture and in the areas of unemployment. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to make a few comments on the remarks the Minister has just made. At the outset I would li ke to say that I appreciate the pos ition that he is in right now insofar as farm labour is concerned.

I appreciate it very much more than he did four years ago when he was si tting on this si de of the House and we were si tting over there, when the same debates took place and partic ularly in the area. of farm labour, when the Minist er was most critical of the government at that time as he still is today referring back to 1969. And what do we find, Mr. Chairman, today after four years ? That we are in a worse position now as far as farm labour is concerned than we were in 1969. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I say that we

1530 April 9, 1973 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. WATT cont'd) .... . are in a damned si ght worse pos ition than we were in 1969. It has got to the point now, through the actions and through the vocal statements that the Minister has made, that it is almost impossi ble to entice anybody to go out to work on a farm, and the Minis ter stands up and talks around the si tuation and talks about the embarrassment on this si de of the House. The embarrassment is on that side of the House, Mr. Chairman.

The embarrass ment is on that side of the House because all the answers that he had when he was on this side of the House which he didn't voice, didn't come into fact when he moved over to that si de of the House after four years. He says the pi cture now is clear. The pi cture to us on this si de now and to the province of Manitoba is clear, that we are in a worse pos ition now than.we were as a result of the lack of policies on the part of the government and parti cularly the Minister of Agri culture and on the part of the Minister of Labour. Mr.

Chairman, the Minist er says that it's up to the farmers, and he's rei terating what he exactly said to the Farm Bureau, that the farmers are going to have to pay more money if they want labour; and he referred to the minim um wage as a basis to start off from but the wage will be increased accordi ng to the ability of that particular worker to work on a farm.

I would like to know if the minim um wage is goin g to include board and room, or if it is not going to; and I'd like to know what the graduating scale is going to be, if a farmer hires a man who has no experience on the farm, if he's going to start off at, is it $1. 75 an hour, is it going to be an eight hour day? Is it going to be a five day week ? We're talking about the minim um wage, we were talking about the labour code, labour relations , labour management relations. Is this going to be a fact insofar as farm labour is concerned ?

The Minister has just pointed out thaLthe pic ture is clear; that we should understand on this si de of the House what has been happening, what is the fact now. What is the fact now? The fact now is that the Minister has increased the farm program insofar as labour is concerned from one salary, shall we say, one person in charge of the management of farm labour, to eleven. Very commendable. Got eleven employees now, very commendable; he's got eleven employees now. What have they done ? We still have no more farm labour.

I said a moment ago, we have less labour available to us on the farm now than we had four years ago, and if the Minister thinks that he can get up and take ten minutes to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-55
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 55.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	75e9d85a3424ed9a868340da4cccae3de1ff602c

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).