LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 20 May, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: On the proposed motio n of the Hono urable Member for Ellice and the amendment thereto by the Hono urable Leader of the Opp osition, the Hono urable Member for Ste. Ros e has 40 minutes. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm very pleas ed to rise tonigh t to speak for the first time to this Assem bly. First of all, co ng ratula tions to you on being elev ated to the Chair. My co ng ratulat ions also to my fellow M LA's on both si des of the House.

We've been gi ven an honour, a privilege and a responsibility and I hope we have the wis dom to dis ting uish between the th ree. The seat of Ste . Rose wa s previ ously held by Mr. Pete Adam who sa t with the mem bers oppos ite for, I believe, 11 years . I would like to sa y to the fellow mem bers of the Legislature that while Mr. Adam and I obvi ously disagr eed politic ally, certain ly anyone who spends as many years in pu blic life as he did and and served the interests of his cons tituen ts des erves cr edit and well wishes in his retirement, and I offer him that at this time.

However, I must add one su b-title to th at. I pr obably owe the fac t that I'm st anding here tonig ht to Mr. Adam. He wrote a letter to the pr ess just pr ior to the elec tion sa ying that he had never sa id I would make a dec ent ML A and I thank him for that effort. Mr . Ji m Ferg uson represented what is now the so uthern part of Ste. Ro se co ns ti tuency pr ior to redis tributio n. He served, I believe, in excess of 12 years in this Legislature.

He served with gr eat dis tinc t ion and co mmi tment and I only hope that I may fill the sh oes and follow his direct ion and the co mmi tment he pr ovided for the peop le that he represent ed. I wish Mr . Fer guson well in his retirement , but those who know him know full well that retirement is a word that he doesn't unders ta nd. Nev ertheless , he has retired from politics and I do wish him well. Madam Speaker, Ste. Rose Cons tituenc y is bordered on two si des by Lake Mani toba, on the east and on the north.

On the west it is bordered by the Riding Mountain s and the beautiful Lake Dauphin , depending on the dep th of the water so me days . Of our loc al go vernment s that are invo lved in the Co nstituen cy of Ste. Ro se , there are seven munici palit ies and an enorm ous LG D that cover s one­ third of the co nstit uenc y . This co nsti tuency, which enco mp ass e s so me 6000 sq uare miles, Ma dam Speaker, also has th ree large r towns with which I hope to hold disc uss ions and cont inue to try and bring forward their concerns, those towns being Neepawa, Mc Creary and Ste. Rose.

Madam Speaker, I notic ed in the last Sunday Sun that I apparent ly gave a sp eech on this sa me top ic last Thursday, and perhaps I'm being offered a second 206 ch ance. The cons tituency of Ste . Rose is a constitu ency that is almost entirely a waters hed and it has certain ly co me home to rest thi s sp ring. Cons idering the pr obl ems tha t have been rampa nt ac ross the constitu ency, it is certainly a topic of conv ersa tion and of gr eat interest to the people, the municipal offic ials in my constit uenc y .

I think , Madam Speaker, that I would like to speak to the memb ers oppos ite about reorga niza tion of priorities, beca use it seems to me when we see the example of what has happened this sp ring , how we were unable to cont rol so me of the flas h floods tha t occu rred, how we were unable to protec t so me of the va luable farmland that went under, I hope that we co uld reorg anize priorit ies and that money co uld be put into additiona l works within the waters heds. I would sp eak sp eci fically on the waters heds in my constituenc y, Madam Speaker.

After all, how does one look a young farmer in the eye after he has pu t $3 0-or-more an acre into his land last fall? When you're st anding looking across his fields with him this sp ring and th ey're 2 to 3 feet under water, how ca n you honest ly, without a twing e of regret, sa y to him, "Wel l, son, you'v e go t no thing but go ose past ure here." This go vernment has co mmi tted itself to repair, replacement and mun icipal infras truc tur e and that so unds go od.

Madam Speaker, I think if we can make that kind of a co mmi tment and if the go vernment ca n make a co mmi tment to the upgr ading and improvement of riverbanks, perhaps there is a little sh uffling and reorg anizatio n of priorities there which would mean that the waters heds of this pr ovince would be part of those pr iorities. I wa nt ed to join this Le gisl ature, Madam Speaker, to have the opportu nity to address priorities, to have so me influenc e on the polic ies and priorit ies of the go vernment no matter which si de of the Legisl ature I si t on.

I believe the time is ripe, Madam Speaker, that we sh ould take a differen t look at the way go vernments deal with rural Mani toba, the ag ricu ltural sect or in partic ular . The ag ricu ltural co m munity in Mani toba provi des the fuel for the engine that provides the motiv ation and the moti ve for our economy. The wedging of agric ultur e into a domest ic market is no t a go od sign or a go od go al. lt will hurt the economy of this pro vince if we ever allow ourselves to think in te rms of only domes tic market.

We have to be very cogn izant of the fact that in order to pro sper and gr ow we must look also to our export mar kets, both to the so uth and offs hore. As a hog producer I can at test to the fact that, when the Americ an border bec ame host ile to our export s , there was $5 to $7 take n out of my pocket immediately - per hog. Madam Speaker, I would like to offer a helping hand to the Minist er of Ag ri cultur e. I am su re that he is a very underst anding gent leman and he understan ds the problems of ag riculture.

Certainly it bothers me that we sh ould be so abus ive. lt bothers me that he is a man possibly in the wilderness across there, but we

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 will cont inue, Madam Speaker, to prod and push and pull until we can ge t th e priorities of ag ricultur e into th e area that we believe they sh ould be. Farmers of th is provinc e deserve better than they have been ge tting, Madam Speaker. lt seems to me that people ge t th e kind of go vernment they deserve, and I gu ess I've been beginning to quest ion if I deserve what I've been ge tting, and this is why I ch ose to run for th e Legis lature. We cann ot cont inue to offload all of th e ag ric ultural probl ems to the feds, to the Americans, and to the world market.

There are so me pro vincial responsibilities and there are areas that the Prov incial Government can mov e. We outlined during the ca mpa ign our concern about sch ool tax es. Th at is no t si mply a matter of dollar s and cent s, Madam Speaker, that is also a conc ern in terms of what is fair and what is rig ht in relations hip between ability to pay and ability of a partic ular asset to produc e mon ies with which bills may be paid.

Madam Speaker, there were certain other very si mple ch ang e s that co uld be made that would impr ove what I cons ider so me serious discrepanc ies in ag ricu ltur e in this province. First of all, what happen ed to th e idea that if a pers on went into a feedlot and was able to make a buck, what happened to the idea th at it was legitima te for him to do so ?

The feedlot operators of this province. lt has to sa y so mething for the profit s tha t are in feed lot if people are prepared to risk ca pit al, risk it albeit possibly for a tax disc ount , for a write-off agains t tax es, but in such a way that it would be produc ing more go ods, it would be provi ding a service, it would be incr easing jobs in this provinc e , even thoug h those who mig ht have invest ed in the feedlot would, in fact, have generated a loss that they would deduct from th eir inco me ta x. Madam Speaker, what about tripartite ag reement s?

We'v e joined the Hog Tr ipartite Ag reement and I co mme nd the Mi nist er th at he has si gn ed th at ag reement . I have to quest ion, however , why it was signed at th e time th at it was. Was it signed for politic al reas ons at th at particu lar time? I quest ion, Madam Speaker, why is th at when we ge t up in the morn ing we have a weather forecast. We probably have a cr op forecast . We have a cr op fore cast even of what's go ing to go on in Russ ia in terms of product ion, but we don' t necess arily know what the Min ister of Ag riculture is go ing to do th at day.

Th ose who ch ose no t to be part of th e prog ram beca use it was put forward as being actuarily so und are no w seeing those who went into th e prog ram being su bsidized. I fear that the sa me will ha ppe n to the ca ttle indust ry - no t th at it both ers me that th ose who are in the prog ram may have so me of their debts writ ten off - but it has been put forward for so long as being actuarily so und, that those word s have a very hollow ring in th e ears of many of the farmers of this prov ince.

Th ere's a co uple of ni fty na mes for pro grams that have been runn ing arou n d in the agricultural co mmunity and in th is Legi s lature - Farm Start and Farm Aid. We have farmers out in the co untry who would like to know what exactly is invo lved in these prog rams, and obv iousl y we're go ing to have to wait for a little while long er. it's sinc erely ho ped on my part that Farm Aid does no t beco me deris ively known as Band Aid. Wh at are the details ?

Can Farm Start prov ide so meth ing more th an a new blush to an old progr am? 207 When you st op and think about it , Madam Speaker, it so unds almost like th e Young Farmer Rebate in reverse, only thi s way the pers on who is selling out ge ts the deduct ion. I'm receiving ca lls from young farmers across my co ns titu ency who have tur ned to MACC in des peration because they are conc erned with their financ ial st anding for the co ming year but there seems to be a problem. MACC is no t keeping pace with the present occu rrenc e s in ag ricu lture.

While MACC has had so me prog rams that have done a fair bit of go od across the prov ince, I am conc erned that they are no t reac ting to the reality of the ag ricu ltural co mmuni ty this sp ring. Madam Speaker, when people approach MACC and they are told th at, even though they have 50 perc ent equity or high er, they have no cash flow and therefore are inelig ible be cause of pres ent gr ain prices; but th e ban ks and the cr edit unions will accept their loans - they are prepared to back them. Now why is it th e priv ate institutio ns are prepared to take a ri sk that MACC will no t?

Madam Speaker, I hope that the Minist er will no t delay. We have had two White Papers under the Min ister's ju risdict ion, two st udies, and I am afraid tha t the time is almost past for action. In term s of sm all business, Madam Speaker, in the Ste. Rose bus iness co mm unity in this cons tituency , what we have are sm all businesses that are service-oriented, heavi ly depen dent on ag ricu lture.

So what I sa y about ag ricultur e, and what we all sa y and see in the future for ag ricu ltu re, or hope we will see in the future for ag ricu ltu re, certain ly no t only affec ts those who ha ve a little dirt under their fingerna ils, it affec ts those who make their liv ing selling go ods and services to th ose people. lt make s a differenc e event ually to th e co mmuni ties and the size of the co mmuni ties, and to the educ ationa l and health ca re opportun ities that will be with in those co mmunit ies because, as the population begins to drop, we know what happens.

During the elec tion, the Premier chose to anno unce sm all business bonds in my constit uency. He invi ted a gr oup of people to a meeting, and he anno unced his prog ram for sm all business, but at what pric e? We st ill are no t su re, because many business e s can already borrow at so mething cl ose to prime. Who is elig ible? Wh at cr iterion ? But interest ingly enoug h, Madam Speaker, after the Premier made that anno unceme nt, he wen t on to deride the public institut ions in the monetary field for their insens itiv ity.

He then ch ose to si t down and visi t with so me of the invited gu est s, and found himself si tti ng amongs t four bankers - unfortun ately, I wa sn't there, I wasn't invi ted - but I susp ect th at this is another example of th e "how to educ ate a donk ey" th eory. The way that you educ ate a donk ey, Madam Speaker, is you ge t a two- by-four about this long and you go up and you hit him between the eyes, and then you'v e go t his atten tion.

That seems to be what happens with the go vernme n t opposi te when they deal with Ott awa. it happens when they deal with many of the people that we believe sh ould be cons ulted, sh ould be dealt with on a st raig htforward basis. Then we would no t be dealing in a conf ron tatio n si tuatio n. We would , in fac t, be dealing in a st raig htforward and prag mati c and pract ical fas hion. Will sm all business bonds be so meth ing more than what is available no w? If it isn' t , truly this go vernment

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 will have abandoned their so -calle d co mmi tment to sm all busi ness . Or will they si mply be an alternative lender? We don't necess arily need alternative lenders in the sy stem at this time. What we need , Madam Speaker, in my opinion, is a ch ange in go vernment attitudes.

Madam Speaker, there is a new hog -processing plant being built at Neepawa, one whic h will be world-c lass . lt will follow a new tech nology ; it will will provide many job s that we so rely need. lt wa s there, the initial st art was beca use of a DRIE gr ant - I'm not sure if you ca ll it DRIE or DREE anymore - DRIE. But I had the unsettlin g experience to hear that the head of the meat pack ers union wa s severely upset that we are go ing to have a meat pac king plant in rural Manitoba. lt's unfortunate that tech nology such as this is being ig nored, Madam Speaker.

Whil e there may be 80 job s out there that would replace a co nsiderable number more in a less efficient plant, they will be long -term job s. They will be jobs that will produce a product at an efficient cost so that we may co mpet e in a hig hly co mpetitive world situation. And I ask, Ma dam Speaker, where will the go vernment si t with its first co ntract legislation when this plant ge ts into operation? A MEMBER: Ask Mack ling, he's talking about bananas all the tim e. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: We're not exporting bananas, we're exporting pork, and in that pork is the wheat and the barley, the product of our prairies and that is the way we will gr ow, that is the way we will meet head­ on the co mpetition around the world. Madam Speaker, I would like to talk about the hig hways in the Const ituen cy of Ste. Ros e for a moment. I have to sa y that hig hways are of a prima ry co ncern be cause in parts of the Ste.

Rose co nstit uenc y, while we hear a co nsiderable amount of talk that the railways have been taken out of Manitoba, that the railways are the reas on our hig hway s are in bad sh ape, it reminds me of the farme r who went out into his field after it had been co m pletely hailed out and he looked at his field and he sa id, "The CPR has done it to me ag ain." Parts of this co nstit uency, Madam Speaker, never did have a railway. The taking out or puttin g in of the railway would not so lve the problems that we have in parts of the Ste. Rose co nstitu ency.

The co ncern is that what high ways we may have, once you ge t off the main arteries, si mply do not meet the st andards of the amount of load that we need to ca rry these days . And I' m not talkin g about enormous truc ks and trans fers - we've go t truc ks that ca n't go down these roads em pty, Madam Speaker. lt di sr upts the flow of co mm erce; it dis rupts the activity in the co nstituency, and eventually what it does, it makes sneaks and ch eats out of other wise honest people who have to wait until the inspect ors have go ne because there's no other way they ca n ge t their ca ttle to past ure.

That is only one example, but it is an example that I think bears to be kept in mind when we talk about priorities, Madam Spe aker. Anothe r co ncern that relates to hig hways, Madam Speaker, is the Yellowhead Rout e whic h is being billed as, and in fac t is, an alternate to No. 1, a touris m route that we hope many, many people will use. This su mm er, 208 when we have a gr eat west ward flow of tourism , it was hoped ma t a lot of those tourist s would sw ing north at Highw ay 16 , but there seems to be a problem.

Somehow it relates to co nstituency boundaries, and I sa y to the Honourable Membe r for Minn edosa , what have you done wrong ? MR. D. BLAKE: lt's co m ing this year, they think. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Well, the co nstruc tion st ops exact ly at the edge of the Ste. Rose boundary, so we are st opped halfway between the two towns . The co nstru ct ion will not lik ely be up to acce ptabl e st andards by the time the traffic beg ins to flow at the end of Ju ne.

There is a very real poss ibility that there will be a co nsiderable loss of tourism revenue to the people who live along thi s hig hw ay and who are expect ing so mething gr eater from the flow of traf fic to Expo. Madam Speaker, it used to be that when you went so uth from Ste. Rose into the Gl adstone Const ituency that you fell into a pothole - that has only recently been cu red - but that seems to me to be an example of go vernment that is using, not only many other mean s , but trans portation fac ilities as a mean s to leverage on the voters of this provinc e.

Madam Speaker, in rural Manitoba , educ ation and health ca re are important su bjec ts . Rural Manit obans have a rig ht, I believe, to expect quality health ca re within a rea sonable dist ance of where they live. In the Speech from the Throne, it seems to me that health ca re wa s touc hed with a very broad brus h - nothing specifi c . Ag ain, I am co ncerned that there were promises dropped here and there, and little gr oups patted on the head here and there, th roug h the elect ion, and that tells me there may be a very real dange r that the Budget has been used up prior to being priorized.

I would only touc h on one item within my co nstituency, however, Madam Speaker. lt's a pro blem tha t is not unique to Ste. Ros e only, it is a problem that occu r s wide ly through out rural Manitoba, and that is obtaining and maintainin g quali ty medic al st aff in our rural hos pital s . it's a problem whic h I am sure the Honourable Minis ter is well aware of, and I would si mply flag one issue that relates to that. At Ste. Rose there is a large faci lity that is being underutilized because of the sh ortag e of doct ors at the present tim e.

I would wonder, with the efforts of the department, in co operation with the univers ities, if this co uld be expanded to be come a teaching faci lity and that we mig ht then be able to att ra c t more doct ors to rural Manito ba, that we mig ht then be able to sh ow more doct ors what rural Manitoba is like. Certainly, the problem is not with them being able to earn a living in rural Manitoba ; it is to ge t them into the rural parts of the province so that they may, in fact, appreciate the deligh t s of living in rural Ma nitoba as the rest of us do.

Certainly, the hos pital of whic h I sp eak has an adequate population base from whic h to draw. Madam Speaker, I was involved as a trus tee for seven years before I beca me involved in provinc ial politics , and it's one of the major reason s that I am in the Legislature tonig ht. As I sa id earlier, I hope to influence the direct ions and the policies of Go vernments of the Day, but I have a few questions and co ncerns .

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 First of all, I would like to cong ratulate the Minist er of Education on so me of the st atement s that he has already broug ht forward, but there are, ho wev er, ques tions that need answ ering and I hope that he will take them into cons ideration. I also , of course, wish to offer him my support if he will cons ider the direction about which I am talki ng.

Can the paren ts of the prov ince be assu red that the curriculum development and implement at io n will be more in line with the comm un ity st andards and will be able to be judged by the people in the commu ni ty in time that they can make up their minds, in a reas onable and practical mann er, about so me of the controver sial curricula that has been proposed? Madam Speaker, ag ain I would point out a persona l si tuatio n on the Beautiful Plains School Board, and the admin istratio n, I felt, was quite a prog ress ive adminis tratio n. So we were prepared to look at the Family Life

section of the health curriculum, and we were told that, if we didn't in-ser v ice so me teachers , we could no t obtain the informatio n. That create s mist rust ; it creates misunderst anding . lt may very well be the one thi ng tha t will kill the oppor tun ity to implement that type of curricula in this provinc e. I cong ratulate the Min ister on a st atement he made in the House here a few days ag o, when he anno unced that the high sc hool curriculum review would proceed. it 's long overdue, however .

I would like to poin t out that trust ees, parent s, and the Association of School Sup erint endent s have long as ked tha t thi s be undertaken and, even th oug h we are no w undertaking this review, it st ands to reas on that we will st ill be behind in terms of where we sh ould have been if we, in fact, imp lement new curriculum after the review has been finished. I wa n t to know, can we expect a sp irit of cooperation from the department - a buzz word, cooperation , disc ussi on, interaction .

These were the kin ds of word s tha t have been flying aroun d the Depar tme nt of Education, the Depart ment of Ag riculture too, I suppose. What both ers me, however, is that we sa w things su ch as the letter go ing out to the "H utterian Brethren" during the election period. lt went out in such a way as to im pugn sh oddy and im moral actions on the part of the sc hool divisi ons of this prov ince that had Hutterian sc hools within their boundaries. Madam Speaker, it was an insult to the trus tees of this prov ince; it wa s an insult to the Hutterian Brethren.

There ca n be only one reas on for it go ing out when it did, becaus e already a lot of the gu idelin es were in place and certain ly the st ructure for disc uss ion was there between the tru s tees and the breth ren in the colon ies .

But it went out impugn ing moti ves during the middle of the camp aign and the resu lt wa s , as I sa id a minute ag o, it wa s an insult to the people that it went to when they st opped and th oug ht about it. lt was done so lely for partis a n political purposes , as far as I'm conc erned, and I hope that the department will never indulge in that so rt of chang e in midstream ag ain. As 1 sa id earlier, I offer my su pport to the Minist er becaus e I hope that these things will no t occur ag ain.

Another point, Madam Speaker, is that there is a lot of feeling out in the public, in regard to the education al prog rams of this provinc e, that education and so cial tin kering is being mixed tog ether. Th e educationa l st andards of this provinc e will be compromi sed if that 209 type of think ing preva ils. We have a go od education syst em if it is properly man aged and kept up-to- date. Madam Speaker, I would like to talk for a mo ment about the east ern part of the Ste.

Ros e cons t ituenc y . it 's an area that is domina ted by ranc hing , which is the most obv ious choice for the people in tha t area cons idering the so il type and the availability of past ure. But ranc hing and fishing are tied very tigh tly tog ether, becaus e many of the ra nchers sa y that they couldn 't afford to co nt inue ranching if, in fact, there was no t a go od winter fishery.

In talki ng about the fishery and in talki ng about the people who live along the sh ores of that Lake Man itoba, the part th at's boun ded within my constit uen cy, I would sa y, Madam Speaker, that I hope that the go vernment would see and would assess the gr eat potent ial that there is in that part of the provinc e. There is a potent ial for commercial and sp ort fishing to be improved. There's a gr eat potent ial for tourism to be improved.

Touris m is almost no n-existent on that part of the sh orelin e of Lake Mani toba but I can gi ve you an example, going aroun d the lake to Lake Dauphin , where tourism and the cons truc tion of cotta g e s and putting in cotta g e cons tructio n for recreationa l activ ities very nearly broke the developer, becaus e it went on for two years . One full year, all that wa s needed was the si gn ature of the memb er who was the Mi nist er resp ons ible. Unfortun ately, that member was al so the Member for Ste . Ros e.

Madam Speaker, the tourism indust ry would len d itself to employment in that part of the pro vince and that part of the cons tit uency. There are thr ee In dian reserv ations up that sh oreline, and I've had so me fairly leng thy disc uss ions with the leaders of tho se commu n iti es. I believe we've developed a mutual res pect and a mutual go al between us. They are looking for job s, Madam Speaker. There is unemployment in that part of the Ste . Rose const ituency that would make Attila the Hun blus h.

Madam Speaker, jobs are the answ er to people who live in the areas that are no t hig hly productiv e in terms of ag ricultur e or fishing. Those job s are hard to find, I gr ant that. But if we could build on the resources that are there, i.e., the tourism; if we could build on the fishing - it wa s flagged earlier by the member next to me for Portage la Prairie that there may be so me problem with the Fairford Dam.

If, in fact, it can be sh own that is the reas on the fish are no t coming to that so uthern part of Lake Mani toba, then truly it's an issue that sh ould be gi ven careful consideration because we want those people to have jobs. They don' t want welfare. They want an active fishery; they want an activ e indus try concer ning tourism if it could poss ibly be developed. The bes t way to attract a tourist is to sh ow him where he can catch a fish, Madam Speaker. I came to this Leg islatur e wan ting to influen ce the policies and the priorit ies of the go vernment.

I hope that I have helped clarify the needs of my cons tituen cy. I pledge myself to work in a constr uctive manner for the go od of this provinc e and, Madam Speaker, I am prepared to make as go od a go vernment as I poss ibly can out of the Government of the Day. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nist er of Health.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, it's a real pleasu re to join the many that have sp oken so far in debating this Speech from the Throne. A MEMBER: Th at's the be s t part of your speech. HON. L. DESJARDINS: lt get s a little better as I go along. I would like to join the many that have congratu lated you, Madam Speaker, for having been chosen to guide us in our delib eration s .

I cert ainly would like to congr atulate the Deputy Speaker also , my leader for going back in government with this government, all the mem bers of this House that were elected, of course, my new colleagues in Cabinet, the Mover and Seconder of the Speech from the Throne. What I find most interest ing, especially in this first Sess ion and in the first debate, is the new mem bers. I have enjoyed it. I've tried to list en to most of the speeches .

I've miss ed so me, but I have list ened to many of the sp eeches from both si des ofthe Hous e, and I was imp ress ed, not necess arily by what wa s sa id but the way it wa s sa id and the apparent si ncerity of all the mem bers that sp oke. I guess the one that im pressed me the most , but he's hardly a new member - he's a new mem ber, but he's had experience - I would think it is my colleague from Concordia.

I have also enjoyed the sp eech - I thought it was going like gangbust ers for the first sp eech - of the Member for Brandon West and the charming Memb er for River Ea st . - (Int erjection) - it doesn't hurt to pay a few compli ments . In fact, I think there is too much partis anship in this House. Ma ybe I'm naive if I think that at times certain thing s sh ould be above parti s an poli t ics for the go od of Mani toba - (Interjection) - Th at's right. My honourable friend reminds me, I'm su re, that I have changed parties.

I want to sa y to them that I have never been cons idered that good a party perso n, a party man. I feel that the parties are there to serve the public and it doesn't concern me that much. You don't vote blindly for a member of a party because it is your party. I don't think that any parties sh ould tell you how you sh ould follow your beliefs and your principles. If you are asked to leave those at the door of the caucus room before you go in, I think th at's wrong. I know this is a joke to so me of the mem bers and this is fine, but I think there is too much.

I have heard so many people sa y that the last sp eaker, the Member for Brandon West, River East , the one from Portage this afternoon, they all finis hed, the sa me thing, I dedicated myself to my cons tituency and the people of my province. MR. J. DOWNEY: You guys don't - you dedicate yourselve s to your selve s . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, the biggest joker in the House is at it again. As long as you deduct his time from my time, let him go ahead, Madam Speaker. That is what they'd like to do.

When so meone is trying to sp eak, although we allowed the courtesy of list ening to what is sa id on the other si de - but a little bit of heckling is good. I don't mind that at all. I was in the process of sa ying that there is too much partisa nship and I believe that. I think that if anybody 210 can tell me - and I make an exception of the Member for Ri ver Heights, bu t all the other mem bers - if they sa y they agree with everything that their partners and their people in their party agree with, I sa y sh o w me one of those and sh ow me either a liar or a fool becaus e that is imposs ible.

I never hes itated to sa y - I think they'v e known how I feel about the French issue. I think what has gone through tho se last few years has been a dis grace. I think we have wast ed money for no reas ons at all. I think also on the quest ion of aid to private sc hools , my st and is very well known on that. I can't pretend that I'm too happy with wh at is going on in this province. I believe in parental right s in education and I believe in equality of opportunity for all the st udents of this province.

Having sa id that, there has been quite a bit sa id on the quest ion of Health and I'd like to disc uss the quest ion of Health in the time tha t is remaining. The Member for Morris lectured us the other day. He sa id you're talking about less money for - (Interjection) - you sa id that from your seat when so mebody else was sp eaking, that we were wrong in st ating that there was a cutback in Health. MR. C. MANNESS: No, I sa id that st anding. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, maybe on your knees, I don't know. I didn't watch where you were, but you sa id it anyway. Th at's the main thing.

Politician s are often accus ed of complaining, criticiz ing and blaming another level of government, and that is true. That is so mething that is done quite often. What I think sh ould be done is to see if they are right in doing so . I want to tell you tonight why we feel like we do. Becaus e if commitment s mean anyth ing, I think that all commitme nts from the Federal Go vernment have been broken. I' d like to quote from so me of these different news papers.

The Ottawa Citizen on August 24 , 19 83: " 'I n New Gl asgow, Nova Scotia, a Cons ervative Go vernment would rest ore the original 50-50 sp lit in Medicare cos ts between the Federal and Provincial Go vernments if elected to office,' sa id Tory Leader Brian Mul roney. 'I n so me cas es, the federal sh are would likely be even high er,' sa id Mulron ey.

"I n the Crocodile Room of the Peter Pan Motel in New Gl asgow, Mulr on ey expa nded his them e of Medicare as a sa cred trust , arguing that hos pital user fees charged in so me provin ces would become academic if fairness was rest ored to the financial formula that governs health care funding. National health care is not a political issue." He believes there sh ouldn't be any parti s an politics.

"He sa id, 'You 're entitled to the sa me kind of quality services irres pective of place of residence.' That may mean in certain ca ses a higher percentage than 50 percent. 'T he pumped up federal contribution is a priority item with us to be financed by a revived economy and the revision of sc rapping of Liberal program s ,' he sa id.'' A little later in the Ottawa Citizen, Brian Mulroney st ressed the Progress ive si de of his Cons ervatives. Here, Friday, ". . . go in to negotiate with the provinces to bring preventative and home health care under Medicare. He sa id a Conservative Go vernment would

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 su pport prev entati ve health ca re, deve lop new appr oac hes to co mmu n ity and ho me-ba sed ca re, espe cially for the ch ronica lly ill, and expand medica l res ear c h partic ularly in the types of illness affec ting the elderly." The Gazette of Mon treal : "Yest erday, Mu lroney laid the blame for the cu rrent cr is is in health ca re financing on the Liberals whom he sa id for ced extra bil ling and user fees on the pro vinc es by reduc ing federal Medic are contr ibutions to 40 perc ent from the 50 percent ." MR. C. MANNESS: Howard Pawley sa ys he'l l knock the pric e of ga s down.

HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well that has a lot to do with Health. In the Gl obe and Mail, in Aug ust 19 83: " 'T he problems with Medica re,' Mr .

Mulr oney sa id, 'are all beca use the Federal Go ve rn ment reneged on co mmi tmen ts it made to the provinc e s and cu t back very dramatic ally on the dollars it sent to the pro vinces who are ch arge d with admin istr ation .' " 'The Cons ervative Government would be generous to the provinc e s and doct ors on the pric kly issue of Medic are,' Tory Leader Brian Mulr oney sa id. 'Federal cutbac ks on Medic are have left the pro vinces holding the bag ,' he sa id, 'it' s the resu lt of the Federal Go ve rn ment sp ending.

Prov inces such as New Brunswick are sc roung ing around for mo ney to prev ent the eros ion of health ca re prog rams .' "Mulr oney sa id, 'T he Cons ervative presc ription for Medic are is an infus ion of federal fun ds for the province s . The root ca use of the problem with Medicare is tha t the Liber als hav e reneg ed on fun ding co mmit men ts to the province. The so lution to Medica re probl ems would be to re-est ablish funding in a positive and generous way.' " I co uld go on an d on. Now, what I wa nt ed to demons trate to nigh t is that there were co mm itmen ts that weren' t kept.

If you think this is an easy task , I sa y that health ca re is the ch alleng e of this generation . We'v e had the best ca re in the world in this co untr y, and Mani toba wa s rig ht at the top, no t in everything , but generally sp eaking , in most of the areas it has the be s t ca re. Now what the Federal Government, from the Minist er of Fin ance, if you remember the st atement he made in the Hous e, there' ll be a reduct ion of $238 mill ion from what Mani toba was ge tting just a few years ago when you were in office. In 19 90-91, in that sa me year, we'll be $313 millio n sh ort of 50-5 0 financ ing .

A few years ag o when they ch ang ed, in 19 66 -67 was the last year of the sh ared formula ; 19 70-78 wa s the block funding and it wa s sa id in the first few years it was muc h more generous than what we had been ge tting under the 50, but it was go ing down. So the four years that you people were in office, you took advantage of that and you go t quite a bit more. They ch anged exact ly the year that you left and no w this is go ing down . Now, in 1976 -77 , the hos pital and the medic al together wa s a total of $323 .3 millio n.

The Federal Go ve rn ment paid 171 .4 of that; the Ma ni toba Government, 15 1, for 53 percent.

The next year, the first year of the block funding, the sh are of the Federal Government went to 56 .5 perc ent; in 19 78 -79 , the Federal Government went to 63 .5; and finally 197 9-80, whic h was the last year I had when I prepared it during that time, wa s 66 .5. 211 You actually sa w a go ve rn ment , a Prov inc ial Government, who actually reduc ed by $20 millio n what it put into that from one year to the other, $20 millio n, that put in $1 52 .7 millio n in 19 77 -78 , and then they went to $132 millio n for those two areas , and in 19 79 - 80, they added $300,000 mo re.

They were st ill $1 9.7 millio n less than they had two years prev ious to that. Now, from the 50-50 perc ent approximately in 19 79- 80, we're about 43 perc ent, and by 19 9 0 it will be 36 perc ent. So if you think it's no t a ch allenge, you've go t another bet co ming. Now, what money is being sp ent from that?

In 19 78- 79 and this is just the Commi ss io n - mind you, that 's where the cost is - $4 45 . 2 millio n; in 19 79-80, $4 92; 19 80-81 , $5 72; 19 81 -82 was for 15 mon ths , so that was $6 99; 19 82 -83 , $81 9 ; 19 83-84 , $909; 19 84 -85, $974 millio n or cl ose to it, more than a billion dollars in Health. If we go on the way we are go ing no w, just with the money the way we are increas ing no w, in 10 years , inst ead of a billion dollars, it will be $3 ,400,000,000.00.

Now do you mean to tell me that we can keep on or go on the way we're go ing no w, with less money from the Federal Government, more expect ancy from the people in the field? The people who have pledged that they are go ing to do so m ething for their province, they have go t to remember tha t and what is go od for Mani toba is also go od for Bra ndon and Riv er East and so on, so you can' t go on like this. In this House you'v e go t a ch oice - and this is what I was talki ng about in an appeal, to be above this partis an politics is to try to work tog ether.

I'm no t na ive enoug h to think tha t there wouldn' t be any cr iticism , that wouldn' t be any go od. But I think we have to refrain from this thing about - well today Ste. Ros e Hosp ital, the teac hing hosp ital? Do you know how muc h it cost s for a bed for a tea c hing hosp ital? Do you have any idea at all? I gu ess no t. Well, maybe you sh ould st art finding out the cost before you make these wild st ateme n ts. The average of Cana da in a tea ching hos pital is $412 a day. Ontario is the second hig hest at $4 45 .54 a day.

You know what Mani toba is spending , $489 a day and tha t's the cr itic ism that you have no w. So when you talk about all this easy cons truc tion and so on, you' re no t realisti c . You are go ing to lo se the whole ball ga me and th at's the dang er. There are so me provinc e s who are sa ying no w, we can' t go with this, we'v e go t to go back to the old way bec ause where are you go ing to ge t the money? I sa y to you, and I sa y to every member in this House, we have to have another look at what is go ing on in the Health field.

There are too many sacr ed co w s that we have to look at before we decide where we want to go . We can' t st ay st ill; th at's go ing down. We can' t keep on, obvious ly, in the way we are sp ending no w. Wh at's go ing to happen without any more revenue? If we cut, well, you know what's go ing to happen then. We have no premiums in this province; no premiums . We have no extra billing . I don' t know of any people who wan t that. No dete rrents . I'm talking about the hosp ital no w and the medica l; no utilization rate.

We're asked every day - increase in coverage - there is this expect ancy there that we'd better revers e. If you really want to work for your province, you st art working toge ther to tell the people you can' t keep on sp ending the way you are.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 We are told to do more in ment al health. The Federal Government never covered a penn y in ment al health but no w they are telling us what to do. The Chamber of Commerce, th at's gr eat, the Member for Porta ge - thi s is gr eat - the Chamb er of Commer ce are very im portant but the Department of Health is no t tryi ng to provide job s for the Chamber of Comm erce. We are looking to provide ca re for our people. You will have your sc hools but at the sc hools the people will be better qualified. Event ually we will need more, no t less .

Eventual ly, I sa id, we will need more psychiatric nu rses beca use you will have so me in ge riatric hospitals, psycho- geriatric hospitals , you will have so me in the co mmu ni ty. A while back, the first year that I wa s the Min ister of Health in the Schreyer years , the Deputy Minist er, that I inherited, had deci ded - and I'm no t blaming him, it wa s the way to go - we were go ing to ge t the people out of those intitutio ns and we were go ing to go out in the co mmu n ity and we were go ing full-speed, turn ing them out the door and everything. But what happened?

First of all, the co mmuni ty wa sn't ready . You know, there is always go od inten tion - go and hide the old man or the seni or ci tiz en so mewhere outs ide the ci ty; hide the ment ally ill and all the misf its in soci ety, they weren' t part of soci ety; that had to be ch anged and the people have to underst and th at. Sec ondly, we had to have facilit ies to house these people and probably more important than anything else, we had to have the st aff, the qualified st aff, and it is a different st aff. Do you know what they did? These people walked aroun d the st reets; they had no faci lities.

They ended up cr owding the acute psychiatric ca re in these hos pitals most ly in Wi nn ipeg , like the Health Sciences Cent re, St. Boniface, Misericordia, Vict oria and so on. This is what happened. You will have your sc hool. lt is no t a quest ion of the Chamber of Commerce. Some of these mun ici palit ies no w are sa ying that we sh ould gi ve them a gr ant inst ead of tax es and the people of Mani toba are building hospit als for them. They are sa ying if you wan t to cl ose a hosp ital, they sh ouldn' t have these five- or six- bed hosp it als , it's no t pract ical.

What are they sa ying no w, that you have to keep this thing ? In this sc hool the people will be sp ecialized; they will have a base, a formatio n of the base for all psychiatric nu rses. lt is so me thing new; it is so mething differen t and there will be more of that, but it's no t cl osing that sc hool and ge tting the proper educ ation and the proper train ing that would do that. lt is bad for Portage . If I was the mem ber, I would fig ht for that also but don' t point at me or my co lleag ues here and say that we are no t provi ding the ca re. That would no t be provi ding the ca re.

You're talki ng about probl ems; you're talki ng about doct ors. Somebody sa id Ste. Ros e. You know what we did for Ste. Ros e to ge t doct ors? We wen t all over the place. lt is no t the responsibility of the Provinc ial Government, you know these big go vernmen ts that you don' t like. What else do you wa n t us to do? Do you remember "from the cr adle to the gr ave"? Th at's what you are adv ocating , all of you. Not when you are talki ng about your next -door neighbour; no t when you're talking about my cons t ituenc y, but when you are talki ng about 212 yours. Th at's exactly what you' re sa ying .

Lis ten to you. Read Hans ard and see what you' re sa ying. Th at's exactly what you' re sa ying . Do you know that in Bra n do n there is 25 perc ent more doctors than they had a few years ago and the hos pitals were fine enough? An d in the ci ty, there's even more than that, and you wa n t to develop more doct ors? You want to develop more doct ors? You have too many doct or s , th at's why you have these walk- in cl inics and so on.

Th at's go ing to ca use problems and th at's go ing to cost a fortune and tha t is go ing to bank rupt this pro vince if we don' t keep up those kind of things . - (Interjecti on) - A MEMBER: Limest one first . HON. L. DESJARDINS: What? A MEMBER: Limest one first. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I though t I wa s talki ng about Health. What the hell has that go t to do with Health? You talk about CAT sc ans. A few years ag o, did anybody know what a CAT sc a n wa s ? You know how much it was to set the first new one up? lt cost us $4 .5 millio n. lt cost the people of Mani toba $4 .5 millio n.

What the hell is $4.5 millio n, eh? Now we wa n t five. We wa n t one everywhere. This is the cost and the people are sp oiled in this province. We have more beds than any other provinc e per population - (Interject ion) - A MEMBER: Well, why are we so sp oiled? HON. L. DESJARDINS: .. . and you're cr ying . Why what? MR. C. MANNESS: Let's talk about that. Why are we so sp oiled? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Why are we so spoiled? I'll tell you why . - (Int erject ion) - Bec ause of the politic ians , all of us.

I'm no t exc luding myself beca use when Medic are and hos pitaliz ation was broug ht in, the Federal Government sa id we'll pay 50-50 but only that, no t a persona l ca re home of acute ca re beds. You only paid 50 cent s so you're billed acute beds, no pers onal ca re beds, no Home Care, none of these services. Then you'v e had a lot of fun sa ying that I knew that we were go ing to incr ease Pharmac are. That wa s a cr ime ag ainst the old people . I knew what it cost . I told you and I've told those that were here before in this House the last few years .

I've made sp eec hes, most of you were there to the Union of Mun icipalit ies and I told them what it would be. I told him exactly what I'm telling you no w, that we had to work toge ther to try to st op that and we did for four years . We're ready and I would invite you to work with us and if you don' t want to work with us, we'll have to do it alone. Not alone - with the medic al profess ion, with the nurses, with the administ rators, but we'll have to do it or we're lo sing the whole ball ga me. There won' t be any Medic are here. We'll go back to where we were before. What did we do for Pharmaca re?

I knew that I was go ing to bring it. I had no idea when it was approved.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 We set up the Budget after the election , my dear friend, in two week s. I kn ew that we wou ld have it. I'd tell you . We're going to do a hell of a lot mo re than that or we're going to lose it. You mig ht as well be advised no w. We're going to do it or we're going to lo se it . Pharmacare, what did we do in Pharma car e? - (Interjection ) - Everybody shou ld be nervou s . The peo ple ou t there shou ld be nervou s. Everyb ody should be nervous. - {Int erjection ) - They're nervou s. They know . They've had to deal with the Budget.

Do you think it was easy to do some of the thing s they did? They 're nervou s. All of us are nervou s because we can go from a best to no prog ram at all. All tho se that cri ti ciz ed Phar macare, was there on e amongst you that took the phone and phoned Ottawa and said, this generic legisl ation you want to bring in , it 's going to cost $10 mi llion -12 mi llion fo r Manito ba - don't do it, Manit ob a's ju st going to be the loser ? Di d any of you phon e ou t there?

All the ot her - the Cons ervat i ve Go vern ment in Sask atc hewan , and everybo dy else, are fig hting on that, every sing le Provincial Go vern ment acro ss this coun tr y. lt's going to cost us $10- 12 mi llion mo re fo r what if that legisl ation go t throug h? No w, look at the awful thing that we did. There had never been an in crease fo r people ov er 65, and we said there's going to be eventua lly in tw o years, because we starte d late, $2 5 deducti ble in crease. Now, $2 5 that wasn 't deducted befo re, they wou ld ge t 80 perce n t of that.

They'd pay 20 percent so, therefore, they'd pay $5 ou t of that 25, so it 's $20 in crease . A carton of cigarett es fo r a year. To say we're in creasing th at! Wh at abou t all the things tha t we are gi ving to keep the cost of living , the inf lation and so on? This progra m costs $4.8 mi llion when we start ed. lt is no w ov er $28 mi llion . You don't want the people ov er 65 because they're nearly there. People that are ov er 65 shou ld no t pay anyth ing? You should get a free ride? We're doing all kinds of thing s.

We're spen ding - (Interjection ) - because no decision had been made during the election , but every speech, ask anybo dy and ask th e Conservati ve candidate what I said at any senio r citiz en home and so on . Fin d ou t what I said. - (In terjection ) - Exactly the same thing that I'm telling you now . There's go t to be mo re of th at. lt's $2 0 per person . No w rememb er that in the hospital they ge t all their drug s fo r no thing . In person al care homes they ge t all their drug s fo r no thing .

Di dn' t I say last year - talking to the Memb er fo r Pembin a - that there would be an in crease and we woul d start charging a per diem rate in ment al in sti tu tion s ? That was before the election. There's going to be mo re. I'm telling the pe ople now there's going to be mo re or we're going to lose the who le ball ga me. I think that my friend the charming Member fo r Ri ver East was say ing we need mo re person al - you did that to your husband, is he around here some where? Madam Speak er, will you make sure that the Hans ard shows that she sen t me a ki ss? I'm not squawking .

Wh at did we tell the chiropracto rs during the election? Wh at did you tell th em? We will treat you like first­ class citiz ens . That'll come back . We'll be talking about that ag ain. That is on e of the prob lems that you have. Ask him, ask him how we treated them. Ask him - not two gu ys - ask the membership. They'll tell you. No . Tho se people that were making all that noise, one's 213 my cousin and they are both in my cons ti tu ency, so do you think I was hiding? - (Interjection ) - That's rig ht. But his mo ther came in and said the gu y was sick, I voted for you, my husband voted for you - well!

Ma ybe I stretch it a bit I don't know about the ol d ma n. - {Interject ion ) - Conco rdia Hospi tal. My friend again. Maybe I'l l get anot her kiss. At Conco rdia Ho spit al you don't need any acute beds and we have gi ven them beds, and we're fixing the emergency, and they will have a viable hospit al. We sa i d before we start buil ding anything else, we'll go to Conco rdia, Vi cto ria, and these places where they have the fa ciliti es to provide fo r mo re people and this is what we'll do. - (Interjection ) - Yes, Gr ace. - (Interjection ) - Sig 's my buddy. You to ld me your self.

I'm gl ad you remin ded me. I was going to forget and Go d I wou ldn't let you ge t away with the statemen t you ma de. No , no , stay here. lt's very friendly. You sa i d that you built mo re personal care home s. You said it fast but you sa i d it . Wh y do you wa nt to talk about, the day they started the cons truction or when it was first approv ed; first approv al or the day they start ed? I've gi ven you a choi ce . . .

The cons tru ction start, July '73 and No vember '77, the Schreyer Go vernment, 1, 208 new personal care beds; No vember '77 to Octo ber'81 , 36 4 ; Oct o ber'81 to Ma rch '87, 66 5 - (Interjection ) - no w let me be fair; that's on ly part of it. There is also replacement beds, and replacemen t beds beca use you' ve licen sed the priv ate sector, and I wa n t to be fair. Cons truc tion costs for replace ment beds, $2 4 2 in 19 73 -77; $462 in '77-81; and $633 in '81 -87 . No w the new beds and the replacement beds to tal in '73-77 , $1 ,450 ; the '77-81 , $826; and this last ter m , $1 ,298.

No w what you've been doing , you' ve been talking abou t the op ening date - (In terjection ) - what? MR. A. DRIEDGER: Are you taking the credit for the 40 beds in Grunt hal? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Oh Go d, I hope I am; I wouldn't wa n t to forg et tho se 20 beds. Now the op ening date is some thing different. We had 96 in '73-77 , and you had 608, but you were op ening the beds that we had buil t. Oh yes, you' ve on ly a count of 36 4. MR. C. MANNESS: Just like Anstett with his election ma teria l in Spring field. HON. L. DESJARDINS: He didn't have th at; he woul d have won with thi s.

He wou ld have won with thi s. How much time have I go t ? MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speak er, on a point of or der. I was try ing to fo llow the Mini ster's figu res. I would as k the Honou rable Mini ster to in dic ate to me, is he sugg esting that I was untr ut hful in the comm ents that I made to the Hous e during my speech to the . . . ? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I would never never sugg est tha t to my honou rable friend, but I say he was wrong as us ual thoug h, but it wasn' t untrut hful . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister has eight minutes rem aining.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Pardon? MADAM SPEAKER: Eig ht mi nutes rema ining . HON. L. DE SJARDINS: Wha t can I say in eigh t minu tes? Do you know what the pro blem is? Let me tell you some of the pro blems that we are faced with. There is the qu estion of ma npow er - what do you call it if you don't wa n t to be hit in the head by some people? - (Interjection ) - what? Staff years - docto rs - that's what I'm talk ing abou t .

The way we are going no w they are n't going to cut down at the universit y ; and we are ge tti ng a lot of people from ot her countri es that we are develo ping and educating , and I think that's gr eat, but it is brain drain ed becau se they don't go back; they stay here. That is on e of the facto rs.

Anot her thing , if they went back they wou ldn't be in a very goo d position to pract ise becaus e what has to be done also is to look at the way these are taug ht in the universi ty, to be able to work like they did befo re or go back to some of these developing coun tries and here to go in the north or the remote areas, that's true. lt used to be at on e time you didn't have the docto rs' wives. They blam ed the doct ors or their wives, they said the social life wasn' t that gr eat. There is very little of that, and they are le gi t.

The thing is that you send a young docto r back; he's conc erned becau se he is trained now to work with all thi s equi pm ent; you don't mov e that you don't have a test on some thing. Then with all these spec ialists and all the hospitals, I don't know what the answer is but it 's no t easy, I can tell you . We broug ht people from Irelan d for Ste. Ro se; they borrowed some body from St. Boni face Ho spital that went bac k , and we've done everything possible in that area. So it is no t easy, it is a pro blem and that problem is common to every provin ce in every country in the world.

Anyw ay, we have wa y too ma ny docto rs in the Winni peg area and there is no t enoog h in the rural areas and in the remote areas and that is some thing we are working on . We have an ex-Mini ster of Health who is devot ing a lot of time for that. He is doing very well and I am talking abou t Dr. George Johnson . No w you have the mo ral is sues also and that's going to be toug h . Well, the moral issues als o . - (Inte rjection ) - Well, all rig ht, there's the abortion; that's on e . There is no pro blem, everyt hing 's the sam e; we don't need Mo rgentaler.

The situation is , now they are talking about heart trans plant s in Mani t oba. Wh at do you do? Where do you sto p? I haven' t go t the answers and that's what I me ant when I said, I can give you a list of conc erns, that I haven' t go t the answers for. Maybe you can help me . May be you can help Manito ba and the pe ople of Cana da and so on. The poin t is that what do you do? I said that and some b ody tu rned it aroun d and said that I am against ol der people becaus e I asked the question , do we cover that at any age? Do we have a trans plan t with some body 96 years ol d? Is that covered?

Do we play Go d; what do we do? I don't know . But tho se question s have to be answered ; these are some of the conc erns that we have. MR. D. ORCHARD: Conr ad has the answers. 214 HON. L. DESJARDINS: We'v e said at one iime tha t MR. J. DOWNEY: He mi gh t be the Mini ster of Health instead of you shortly. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, we've had fun tonight and I appreciate it, I enjo y it, I enjo yed this little bit of heckl ing. In fact, I don't think I was that interesting , there wasn 't as mu ch as usua l.

But I wan t to leav e you with this sin cere thoug ht that I think this is seriou s, and I think we should try to do everything we can. If you want to work for Bran don and if you want to work for your cons ti tu ency - no platit udes, no mo re acut e beds or a teaching hospital in Ste. Ro se or that kind of thing - I think we've go t to work to spend wisely to do the best we can , and we'll ma ke mi stakes, but we've go t to chang e. The public is accepting that, the public is wa iting for that.

The me dical pro fession has never co-operated as much as they are now and you've all had a copy of the me dical review. If any of you haven't received a copy of the me dical revi ew, let me know and I'll ma ke sure tha t you ge t a copy becaus e these last years we sat in organiz ing this planning and prio riz ation in these different comm ittees that no w is the time to act . There will be some very toug h decis ion s, and I say tha t we need your help becaus e we are all working for the same thing . lt's easy to create this expectanc y and say you shou ld do this, you shou ld do th at.

We've go t to sto p that. We'll be lucky to keep what we have now, fellas, and that's true. A MEMBER: it 's easy to blame the feds too . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, didn't you un dersta n d what I sa i d to day? Are we righ t in blaming the feds? it's not that you 're blami ng them auto ma tically . I recognize that gov ernm ent s are always blam ing the next gov ernment. A MEMBER: lt's the tax payers. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Pardon? A M EMBER: We're all the sam e. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That's no t the point. That's why we have a Federal Governm ent.

We have a Federal Gov ernm ent so we can equa lize things a bit in this coun try. If not, there's no poin t . You saw where you were at 66 during your reign, 66 .5 percent, and now we are 40-somethi ng . My friend from Pem bina said we'll say you've go t too ma ny staff. So what? Let's say you' re righ t, sa v e a couple mi llion s, where do you go from there? Let's say that you were righ t to that amount, and a lot of peop le have sa i d that. Fine, that is not to say that we should not, in every department and everything , be careful , and I think we have been .

Certain ly it's not perfect; I don' t kno w of any gov ernment that's perfect. But in this area, I think that you shou ld be on ou r side. Certain ly you shou ld be telling the gov ernment no t to bring legislati on that will add $1 0 mi llion to $1 2 mi llion to ou r drug costs. Who is going to pay for th at?

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 You don' t want the peo ple ov er 65 to pay, and the pe ople on welfare don' t pay, the peo ple in hospitals don't pay. Who is go ing to pay ? You are loading quite a bit on the mi ddle income gr ou p and I don' t think that we can stan d th at. - (Int e rjection ) - I be g your pardon? A MEMBER: lt's a great speech. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Charleswoo d. MR. J. ERNST: Madam Speak er, thank you. Wh en you're finished with the Clerk , I'll ... Madam Speak er, I wish to exte n d my best wishes for your fairness and im

part iality and ju dicious charg e of the House . If I had know n you as well perhaps as the Mem ber for Lakeside, I mi gh t also wa n t to reach ou t, but we'll have to leave that for anot her time. But I do wish you well in the exe rcise of your duties. I wa n t to express my congr atu lation s to all of my fellow cauc us mem bers on their electio n or re-election , as the case ma y be . They're a fine body of women and men on this side of the Hous e, and I'm very pleased to be asso ciated with them. Madam Speak er, I would like to co ngr atulate all of the new mem bers in this House.

May we carry on the fine tr adition s that this House has represen ted, and perhaps we can forg et some of the no t so fine tr adition s that have bee n displayed ov er the past few days. I'd like to congrat u late my leader for a very fine, pointed reply to the Speech from the Throne. I thoug ht he quite clearly pointed ou t the inadequ acies and the lack of go vernm ent progra mm ing that were proposed in the Speech from the Thron e. We hope to change that ov er a period of time .

I woul d like to congrat u late the new Mini sters in the Hous e: the Mi ni ster of Cu lture, Herita g e and Recreation; the Min ister of Na tural Resources; the Mini ster of Urban Affairs and, for the first time , the Mini ster in charg e of Na tive Affairs. I of fe r them my congr atu lation s. I wan t to express my tha nk s to the peo ple of Charleswoo d, firstly, for having elected me to this House. I prom ise to serve them well and, hopef ully, for a long period of time . I would like to tha nk the form er Mem ber for Charleswoo d, no w retired, the Honourable Sterling Lyon. Mr.

Lyon served the people of Mani t oba, both as Premier and as Attor ney-G eneral, and spen t a cons idera ble portion of his lifetime work ing on behalf of Ma n ito bans and, in

part icu lar, the peop le of Charleswood, Madam Speak er. This pro vince was fort un ate to have had his representati on and his judgment , and this House is a better place for his having been here. I wa n t to thank my cam paign work ers, Madam Speak er, for thei r tireless efforts on my behalf,

part icu larly follow ing the accident that oc curred som e four days before the election. lt seeme d to spur on their dedication even more. I wa n t to of fer my congratu lation s as well to the Mem bers for Ellice and Kildon a n for their answer to 215 the Speech of the Lieut e nant-Go vernor. The Mem ber for Ellice ma king a speech, of course, in a political forum is no t some thing new to me . I've had the experie nce before. I wasn' t very fond of it then eith er. However, this time he on ly us ed 50 anti-Con servative cliches, instead of his norm al five or ten .

I wa n t to comm ent briefly on my me dical condition that ma ny of you have no ticed ov er the last period of time . Firstly , I want to thank the Mini ster of Finance. He was the on ly mem ber on that side of the House who sent me a ge t well card, and I appreciated that very much, that he ov ercam e that im

part iality, that . A MEMBER: Wh at did it say? MR. J. ERNST: lt said: "Ge t well soon , and see you in the Oppos ition bench es." Unfortunately, you were cor rect, for that time on ly. Secon dly, I want to thank my fellow caucus memb ers for th eir help and assistan ce ov er the past few days. Wa lk ing on crutches is no t an easy thing . You can' t carry anything liquid in na ture, partic ularly . So I have them runn ing here and there for coffee for me or what ever, and I appr eciate that very mu ch.

The on ly problem is I'm a little afraid, with the num ber of IOU's that I have ou t there, I'm go ing to be spen ding the rest of the Session , perhaps the rest of the year, in chasing aroun d on th eir behalf.

I mu st say tha t I do have now a who le new appreciation of the me aning of "accessibility" when it's in term s of the physically handicapped. lt's an interesting note that, when I come into this building at nigh t - I happen to have a park ing stall at the back of the building - to ge t into this building , I have to go up a set of stairs, down a long hallw ay, up anot her set of stairs - no elevator, no physically handicapped access to that portio n of the building. it's all at the fron t.

Tonigh t, we had a ma jo r demonstration ou t at the fron t . lt was im possible for me to ge t into the building thr oug h tha t me th od . Perhaps the Mi ni ster of Governmen t Services mi gh t well take note of that and, in the future, look at some changes to the building . I want to again advise the First Mini ster that I hold him entirely responsible for my acciden t. All of the pain, the suffering , the agon y, the frustration that I've gone throug h are all his fault; he's solely respon sible.

The call of a win ter election has no t only created ma jor pro blems for our senior cit izens , the physicall y handicapped and tho se in remot e areas . lt caused at least five accidents I know of during the camp aign , five accident s as a resu lt of the cam paign ing, no t including my own. The Min ister of Health, as a ma tte r of fact, shou ld be tak ing the Prem ier to tas k for cau sing these increases in health care costs. He talk ed about it ju st a few mi nutes ago , for several hours - several mi nutes, I should say. A MEMBER: lt ju st sounded like several hours. MR. J.

ERNST: Just soun ded like several hours yes, exactly. But he did go on and on at great length abou t the costs of health care, how th ey're rising , how we can' t

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 affo rd them , how we're going to have to chang e and do thing s . Well he went on an d on with those thing s. Let me tell you this. I experien ced the problems that we talked about during the election fi rst-hand, as a consum er. I was in the am bulanc e; I was in the hospital corridors lined with stretchers, people waiti n g fo r beds. Notwithsta nding what the Mini ster said, the fa ct of the ma tter is those people are there. The problem is there. I was there to witn ess it fi rst-hand, no t by choice.

I'm pleased, Madam Speaker, to be present as an elected represent ative in this Hous e fr om the constit uen cy of Charleswood. Charleswood is located in the southwest quadran t of the City of Winn ipeg. The commun ity of Cha rleswood, as disti n ct fr om the constit uency, is alm ost analogous, but no t quite . lt was fo rm ed in 19 12 , when it split off fr om the R. M. of Assi niboia. Charl eswood was a rural commun ity fo r a very very long time . The popu lation at the outbr eak of Wo rld Wa r 11 was only 75 0 men, wom en and children.

In 194 6, with the retu rn of our soldiers fr om overseas, fr om Europe and Asia, the Veteran s' Administratio n open ed large-lot resident ial developmen t, ma king one­ acre service lots available on VLA gra nt s. Urba n development started in Charleswood in the late 1960's ne ar the Perim eter High way with th e We stdal e subdivision. Today, it is predomi na ntly a residential commun ity with som e 30,000 resident s, with our mo st famo us cit izen being the Leader of the Opposition.

Wi th the creation of Unicity in 19 72 by the Schreyer Go vernm ent, the constit uency and the commun ity of Charleswood was dealt a lethal blow. At that time , Charleswood was a comm unity policed by a rural RCMP detachmen t, a volunteer fi re departm ent and very lim ited mun icipal services. Charleswood was diff erent than the other commun ities of greater Winn ipeg, very different, in that it did no t have the level of service in other comm un ities but still had a rural style village.

But the NDP under Ed Schreyer didn' t un dersta n d that, and fo rced Charl eswood into Unicity - Unicity, that won derfu l ur ban experim ent design ed by NDP academi cs who didn't know the fi rst thing about local governm ent. Well Unicity proved all the academ ics wron g and the local government politicians correct. Taxes skyrocketed with the rapidly rising costs of the new governm ent, fo rced by wages and services rising to the hig hest comm on den om inator.

Wi th property taxes caus ing ma jor eco nom ic problems , hom eowners were fo rced to subdivide their larger holding s, creati n g mo re resident ial development in the process. Wi th that increase in home s, mo re fami lies mo ving into the commun ity, came an increase in traff ic with hundreds upon hundreds of new cars and truc ks never cont emplated by the desig ners of the roads, which were certainl y unable to accomm odate this vehicu lar traff ic.

Sim ilarly, with the increase in paved and covered land areas, the ditch drain age co uld no long er accomm odate the run-off , caus ing localized fl ooding fr om tim e to time . The Th ro n e Speech delivered by the Lie ut e nant­ Go verno r was the fi rst I have witn essed in person , and I felt proud to be a part of this As sembly and participate in the open ing of the House.

However, after having heard the cont ents of the Throne Speech, that pride began to be replaced by a gro win g concer n over the ma jor progra m s mi ssin g an d the gover nm ent 's mi splaced priorities. 216 The mo st glaring om 1ss1on fr om the governm ent 's legislative program is all but the toke n referen ce to the City of Winn ipeg. The Memb er fo r River Heights, in her debate, brief ly referred to this sam e problem, ig noring the largest sing le popu lation base in the province which generates 75 percent of provincial revenues.

Here is a governm ent that purports to be ur ban-oriented, holding 18 of the 30 seats in the City of Winn ipeg, yet all they have is a toke n comm ent about some chang es in The City of Winn ipeg Act - terrible. The ma jor problem fa cing Winn ipeg today is no t one of ma jor im pact on the provincial treas ury, Madam Speaker. lt won' t cost a great deal of mo ney.

In fa ct it won' t cost the treas ury anything, but it will require som e action by the Cabinet. lt will require them to ma ke a decision; it will require them to show som e initiative and leadership to ma ke a hard decision to tru ly stand up fo r Mani toba, to tr u ly stan d up fo r the people of Winn ipeg.

This governm ent has waffled, delayed and lagged on the question of assessmen t reform, while the fo rm er Mini ster of Mun icipal Affa irs didn' t carry out his duties and respon sibilities in solvin g this problem and no w we see he's - once rejected by the people in the electio n - been hired back by the governm ent in one of the mo st blatant political patro n age appoint m ents ever seen in this provi nce.

Wh ile all this has been going on - or to be mo re correct no t going on - the new Mini ster of Heritage and Recreation , together with several colleagues, sued the City of Winn ipeg, dema nd ing the cou rt order imme diate reassessm ent. I am pleased to see today that at least one memb er of the Execut ive Council is in fa vour of reassessm ent, want s to see it happen imme diately after fi ve years of delay after delay after delay.

I hope that the Mini ster will put the pressu re on her Cabin et colleagues to get on with the assessm ent question , to put it into place, put into place those buffers that are already passed by this House, but fo r the last th ree years refused Royal Assent at the insistenc e of the fo rm er Min ister of Mun icipal Affa irs and his then Cabin et col leagues. There was no mentio n, Madam Speaker, in the Throne Speech of any trans portatio n initiatives fo r the City of Winn ipeg, another of the ma jor problems fa cing the ma jority of our citizens .

Traffic strang u lation is on the increase and in the last 10 years we've got a 56 percent increase in traff ic on the streets of the City of Winn ipeg. There's mo re traff ic no w during the daytime than there was during rush hour ju st 10 years ago. There's been no ment ion of tha t and we have a great numb er of traff ic im provemen t programs that are required. They cost a lost of mo ney, I agree, but we seldom ever cons ider the question of the operatin g costs associated with those trans portatio n projects.

The cons ultant s fo r the replacem ent of the Salter Street Bridge indicated, Madam Speaker, the savin gs by leavin g the bridge open and constructing the new bridge adjacent to it saved the mo torists - no w no t the gov ernm ent necessarily - but the mo torists, the taxpayer out there, $6 mi llion. Madam Speaker, that 's a great deal of mo ney and some thing that ought to be addressed when cons idering the cost of these projects. Madam Speaker, I'm advised that my time will be over at 9:30, so I will have to adju st my no tes accordin gly.

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 There have been any num ber of criticis ms , shortco m ings , and lack of initiat ives from this go vernm ent as listed by ma ny of my coll eagues, so I'll no t begin to repeat them ag ain . They also had their Frida y-m orn ing lectu re from the Attor ney-Gene ral, pointi ng out to we who are new memb ers in the Opposit io n benc h, what we ma y or ma y no t do and how we must behave and, of course, dare no t be critical of their perform ance as a go vernm ent.

The Attor ney-General and I have known each other for a num ber of years and, Madam Speaker, I was surprised at the veheme nc e of his sta tem ent. - (Interjection) - Well that will remain to be seen. lt will depend, Madam Speaker, whether or no t they bri ng forward go od legislat io n and effective pro grams to deal with the Provin ce of Mani toba as we see them. Then we'll see whether we argue or no t. Then we see whether we'll be critical of your go vernm ent, but bring in those prog ram s and we'll deal with them.

I hope they do bring in go od progr ams , Madam Speaker, for the sake of the taxpayer becau se they are the ones who are go ing to be called up on to foot the bill. In my opin ion, the success rate of this go vernm ent is no t very high, however I view my job as an Opposition memb er to see that go vernm ent priorities are put into focus. Some tim es it requires a quiet sugg estion; other tim es a firm word; and fro m time to time the two-by­ four approach as poin ted out by the Mem ber for Ste. Rose.

Wh at the taxpayer wants to see, Madam Speaker, is action , resul ts, and the best bang for his buck. lt's the job of the go vernm ent to carry out that action and the job of Opposition to see that they do it effect ively. In the final analysis, Madam Speaker, the taxpayer will be the ju dge. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: In accordanc e with Ru le 35( 3) , the question before the House is the amendment mo ved by the Honour able Leader of the Opposition to the proposed mo tion for the Honour able Mem ber for Ellice.

Do you wish the mo tion read? (Ag reed) The proposed mo tion of the Honour able Leader of the Opposit ion and am endment thereto as follows: THA T the mo tion be am ended by adding to it the foll owing words: But this House regrets: ( 1) That this go vernm ent has pursued a policy of secrecy on ma tters of vital interest to the public such as the withholdi ng of the Third Quarter Fin ancial Statem ent, the details on the hydro sales ag reement with Am erican ut ilities it announced during the election camp aign , and its failu re to proclaim The Freedom of Informa tion Act;

(2) That this go vernm ent has lost its credibility by the investm ents of its Cabinet Min isters in SR TC tax sea ms;

(3) That this go vernm ent has failed to take any real action to deal with the serious problems which exist in the ag ricu ltur al sector of our provin ce;

(4) That this go vernm ent places as a priority the expans ion of its Cabin et, and the hiring of a defeated Cabin et Mini ster in a ma ke-work posit ion , over health care for our elderly and services to people; 217

(5) That this go vernm ent has failed to address the question of deterioration in our health care system , in the quality of education of our yout h, in services to me et the needs of the elderly and disadvant age d, employm ent opportun ities for youth; and

(6) That this go vernm ent has thereby lost the tr u st and con fidenc e of the people of Mani toba. QUESTION put on the amendment, MOTION defeated. MR. G. MERCIER: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the memb ers. A ST ANDING VOTE was taken , the resu lt being as follows: YEAS Birt, Slake, Brown, Conn ery, Cumm ings, Derkach, Do wney, Dr iedger, Duch arme , Enns, Erns t, Film on, Fin dlay, Hamm ond, Jo hn sto n, Kovna ts, Mann ess, McC rae, Mercier , Mi tchelso n, Nord ma n , Oleson , Orchard, Pankratz, Rocan , Roch.

NAYS Ashto n, Baker, Buckl aschu k, Cowan , Desjardin s, Do er, Do lin, Evans, Harapiak (The Pas), Harapiak (Swan River), Harper, Hemp hill, Kostyra, Lecuyer, Mackli ng , Mal oway, Parasiuk, Pawley, Penn er, Plohm an, Sant os, Schroeder, Scott, Sm ith (EIIice), Sm ith (Osborne), Storie, Urus ki, Wa lding , Wa sylycia-Leis. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Yeas, 26 ; Nays, 29. MADAM SPEAKER: The na ys have it, and the am endment is according ly lost. The questio n before the House is the proposed mo tion of the Honour able Mem ber for Ellice. The Honour able Mini ster of Nat u ral Resou rces. HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, it is my pleasu re to join in the debate on the Speech fro m the Throne. I wou ld like to start by extending my cong ratu lations to you. I do that no t only because it is a traditio n for speakers to do so, but I do that as an expressio n of my con fidenc e in your ability to deal with the ma tters which will come before the Hous e. In deed, the conf idenc e that I had has been rein forced by your handling of ma tters which have com e before this Assem bly in recen t days.

I wou ld like to exten d my cong ratu lations , as well, to all memb ers of this Assem bly, particu larly to those who are elected for the first time . I look to work with all memb ers of the Assembly in serving the interests and the needs of the people of Mani toba. I am pleased to be here representing the constit uency of Swan River. lt is a historical even t for the cons t ituency of Swan River to be represent ed by a New Demo crat provincially. lt is, as som e of the memb ers have said, at long last. lt was a long effort. lt was on my third attem pt to seek election to this Assembly that I was

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 finally successful. I recognize that the margin of victory was not a large one; it was 65 votes. As has been indicated, the mantle of "landslide," I understand, now is transferred from the Member for Thompson to myself. I want to point out that it is my sincere hope that I can experience the same success as the Member for Thompson has.

In the previous election, his margin of victory was similar to mine and I understand, in the election that we have just fought, the margin of victory was increased substantially . lt is my hope tha t with the title of "landslide," I can enjoy the same success in future elections in Swan River. I thought that perhaps I had the distinction of having the narrowest margin of victory, but I understand that perhaps has to go to the Member for Roblin-Russell.

I would like to point out that for the constituency of Swan River, though this is the first opportunity for the constituency to be represented by a New Democrat in the provincial Legislature, the constituency has been represented federally on more than one occasion, in the 1940's by Mr . Moore who represented Swan River as part of the Churchill constituenc y. More recently, being part of the Dauphi n-Swan River constitue ncy, it was again represented federally by the New Democrats.

The Swan River constituen cy, for th ose who might not be familiar with the area, is primarily an agricultural community but one in which the resources of forestry, in particu lar , pla y a very im portant part. The constituency stretches from the communi ty of Mafeking in the north and a number of smaller communities in that reg ion, and the southern bound ary is the community of Pine River. On the east side, we are bounded by Lake Winnip egosis and, on the west side, the constituency is bordered by Saskatchewan.

The constituency is, as I indicated, diverse in its resources and it is diverse in its people. lt is primarily an agricultural community in the central part of the constitue ncy, with the main trading centre being Swan River. lt is an area of very rich and fertile soil where the production of wheat and canola are the predominant crops. Livestock is also a very im portant part of the economic base for the region. Forestry plays, as well, as im portant role in the area with the forests being harvested primarily from the regions of the Duck Mountains and the Porcupine Mountains.

Fishing is an im portant industry historical ly, the commercial activities being carried on primarily on Lake Winnipegosis, but also on some of the smaller lakes of Swan Lake, Pelican Lake and Red Deer Lake. We are fortunate in the area, as well, in that we are well-blessed with park facilities, and tourism is a very imporant part of the economy of the region. People take gr eat pride, particularly with the one main attraction for the region during the summer months being the Northwest Roundup, which is hosted in the community of Swan River. I had indicated that we had a diversity of people in the area.

Many of the people of the area are of Native ancestry but, as well, we have people whose ancestry is rooted in the British Isles and people also whose ancestry is rooted in western Europe and in eastern Europe. The people are hard-working people, proud people, people who are proud as Manitobans and proud as Canadians. I take pride in pointing out that my own ancestry, similar to that pointed out by mem bers opposite, the 218 Member for La Verendrye earlier tod ay, is rooted in eastern Europe.

I take pride in pointing to the fact tha t my grandparents on both sides immigr ated to Canada from the Uk raine at about the turn of the century. They came to Canada to till the soil, and they took great pride in their work and their contribution to the commun ity. My own background is that of a farmer and an educator, and I feel that this provides me with a good basis from which to serve the concerns and the interests of the people of the Swan River constituency and indeed the people of Manitoba.

My background as a farmer provides me with a basis from which to appreciate the problems being faced by the agricul tural co mmun ity , problems that are recognized by members on both sides of the House. Farmers are faced with increasing costs of production and declining commodity prices, resulting very clearly in diminishing returns to the farmers and their families. I think the question is not just one of economics, though there is a very difficult economic situation. We have to assess, as well, the impact of that situation on the human spirit. What is happening to those families?

What is happening not only to the people who till the soils? What is happening to the fabric of our rural communities? That is a concern, not just for rural Manitoba, but it has to be a concern for all of Manitoba for indeed agriculture, as has been said by many, is one of the cornerstones of the economy of Manitoba, and the rural commun ities form the basis for the economic activity enjoyed by people in the urban centres. I would like to relate to you briefly some of my experiences in agriculture, which I think are experiences which are applicable as well in the political arena.

Having had the opportunity to work with the land, to nurture the crops and to enjoy the success and some of the disappointments associated with that activity, I think I have acquired certain qualiti es which I hope will serve me well in this Assembly. Those who are familiar with the experiences of agriculture, I think, will recognize that we, through agriculture, learn to be patient. A MEMBER: A great virtue. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Indeed it is. lt is a virtue that we should all enjoy. lt is a virtue which is, in a sense, taught by our agricultural experiences, recognizing that we have to wait for the right season.

There is a season for each of the different activities, and we cannot change that. We have to w ait for it, for the appropriate time. As well, I think it has taught me humility because, despite the best-laid plans, there are some things which are beyond our control, and something as devastating as a hailstorm or an overnight frost can make the best manager look rather poor and, in fact, become poor. We have to learn to live with that situation. I think it is a quality which could serve us all well, but it is not certainly an experience that I would not want to wish onto someone in excess.

Those experiences, I think, have as well brought out the quality of resilience in people, as well a very desirable qual ity. Out of those experiences that people have in the agricultural commun ity, they are often required to make a comeback of some sort, to wait

Tuesday, 20 May, 1986 for next year, to look to the future. They have had to cope with very difficult situations and they are dealing with a very difficult situation at present, but that quality amongst the rural people is something that we should all admire and all hope to have to some degree. I think that those qualities, the th ree qualities that I refer to, the qualities of patience, humility and resilience are undoubtedly qualities that we can utilize in this Assembly.

I am not sure what the equivalent of a hailstorm would be in this Assembly or an overnight frost but I'm sure, in terms of political experience, there are parallels. I would like to comment, because of my interest in agriculture, on the fact that I am proud to be associated with the record of the administration from 19 81 -86 . The government, under the leadership of the Premier and the Mi nister of Agriculture, demonstr ated clearly a concern for agricultur e.

There were several comments made in the Assembly with respect to Ma nitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, and I don't think anyone from this side has ever claimed that the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation could, by itself and of itself, address all of the financial needs of the Manitoba farmers. But if you look at the level of activity of that corporation over the years, it has demonstrated very very clearly an increasing level of activity in a period of time when other lending institutions were perhaps expressing some caution and withdrawing from that arena.

The demands on that institution are increasing and, in fact, they are at a level such that some farmers are expressing frustration that their case is not being dealt with soon enough. The corporation is attempting to do all that it can, but it cannot take over the responsibility that should be shared rightly by other institutions. The Interest Rate Relief Program in that same period of time was very well received by the agricultural commun ity, as were the int erest rate write downs and the int erest rate buy downs offered by Manitob a Agricultural Credit Corporation.

The Beef Program which was, on its introduction, touted by some to be a program which would be subscribed to by only 10 percent of the beef producers in Manitoba has a subscription of some 75 percent of the producers and of the beef herd in Ma nitoba. As well, the Hog Program introduc ed by the same government provided very significant aid to ho g producers.

I want to say that, in the course of my political experience particularly as it relates to agriculture, the Min ister of Agriculture is recognized as a leading spokesman for the int erests of the agricultural community in Mani toba. 1t is impo rtant not only to look at what has been achieved, but we must look as well at what might be achieved. To me, the Throne Speech is a clear commitment to agriculture and the rural commun ity. I look forward to working with members on both sides of the House to address the difficult situation facing the agricultural commun ity.

I want to make some comments more specifically related to the responsibility that I have been given with 219 respect to natural resources. I am cer tainly looking forward to the opportunities and challenges that exist within that portf olio. The province is rich in natural resources, and it is our responsibility to see that these resources are util ized for recreational purposes, as well as for some of the commercial opportunities that will present themselves. lt is a difficult and challenging task to balance the interests of the various users tha t exist in our communi ties.

The most im portant consideration has to be that of ensuring that these resources are available for the enjoyment and the utili zation of future generations. My first contact with the staff of the Department of Natural Resources leaves me feeling confident that they are an effective and a dedicated group of emplo yees. I would like to thank the Memb er for Emerson for pointing out to me some of the issues that are of a concern to him as the critic for Natural Resources.

I would only say in addition that his characterization of the department as being one which was raped and pilla ged is an exaggerat ion in the extreme. Of the issues that are facing the department, water issues are certainly paramount and, in my first few days in the Legislature, I had the opportunity to address some of th ose issues. I was in communication with the Member for Emerson, the Member for Ste. Rose and the Member for Portage la Prairie. I had the opportunit y, as I indicated in the House, to visit some of the areas that were flooded in the Mc Creary-Ste.

Rose area and as well in the Portage la Prairie area. Indeed, only tonight, I had to leave this Chamber to meet with a group of farmers from the lnterlake area who were experiencing similar problems. So I recognize full well that there are many issues on the question of water to be dealt with, but it is my view that we cannot look at those issues only in terms of drainage. We have to look at a water management scheme and we have to recognize that in some of the areas perhaps that are prone to flooding we will have to look at different cultural practices. I recognize that time is running on.

I want to mention briefly that the area of forestry and reforestation will be critical issues as will be the issue made reference to by the Member for Emerson on the wildlife issues, specifically the one of game ranching. I will look to discussion with people on both sides of the House to address those issues. Madam Speaker, just for my clarification, if there is time available tomorrow, I would like to continue with some of my comments. MADAM SPEAKER: Right. The hour being 10 :00 p.m. I am interrupting proceedings.

According to the rules, when this motion is again before the House, the Honourable Mi nister has 19 min utes remaining. The House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:00 p.m. tomo rrow. (Wednesday)