VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TPAJ.'l"SCRIPT HOUSE OF ASS.EMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, APRIL 24, 1980 NO. 28

April 24, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 996 NM - 1 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) is - I will ask the President of the Council~ Ls the minister going to be here? If so,I will defer it until he comes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: He is on his way to Gander for - he has to go to the Mainland. He had hoped to catch a later flight but because of the fog - ~!R.

ROBERTS: Okay,then, Well, in his absence I will have to make do with second best and ask the President of the Council. Coula he please tell us whether the government have had any conversations with the St. John's Municipal Council, or with representatives or members thereof with respect to this vexing and newly re-emergent question of the institution of a ward system? I ask because,of course,my understanding is that that would require amendments to the City of St. John's Act. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I am tempted to say, Mr. Speaker, that why do with second best.

I could take notice of it and say the minister will be back and he will answer it, but I can answer the question. We have had no direct - the matter has recently come up as a result of an editorial in The Evening Telegram, and then I understand at We&1esday's council meeting it was also brought up. I think .the Deputy Mayor indicated that he was going to bring a motion forth before council next Wednesday.

Now the position of the government is that it has not been approached this year with respect to this request and,before the government could consider the implementation of a ward system, it would have first of all to receive a request for same from the city council. And even at that,of course,that would not be conclusive ; but would then have to have consideration by the government themselves as a mat~er of policy as to whether it in fact is 2629

Apnl 24, 1980 ~~~~. liARS a:..r.z. : in the city of st. John's . MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Strait of Belle :Lsle. MR. ROBERTS : Tape No . 996 Nl'l - 2 t.'le ~s:: system for l!lun .icipal elections A supplementar y, the hon. member for th e ~.r . speaker, I t.'lank the illinister . I give lliln about an A :ninus, I guess , .:or his answer, as opposed to a s. ?.e is goir.:; ir. the right direction but not goLng far e~ough . I underscand from what he sai d, and I want ::o be su .re I understand ,that the governmen t's position is that as the council as yet have not approached the government in respect of r.his matter, you !cnow 1 2630 .. ...

April 24,1980 Tape No. 997 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: the gover~~ent have not taken it under advisement or whatever the correct phrase is. can I ask the minister · if he can indicate whether the government would be prepared to institute such a system assuming - and I realize it is hypothetica:- ~ssuming the council do request it 1bearing in mind the fact that the voters of the City of St.

John's and the franchise municipallyras I recall it,is almost precisely, in fact is precisely the same as the franchise for this House, a general election in the Provine~, something which I believe the Liberals did in the much maligned previous administration, the previous admini~tration ~~rk 1 as opposed to Mark 11. Can the minister tell us whether the government bearing in mind that a majority, a substantial majority of the voters of St. John's in response to a referendum, a plebiscite,did indicate they wanted a ward system,whether the government would be prepared to bring such legislation before the House? MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it is always dangerous for one minister to indicate what the government would do before the government has considered it as a matter of policy. I would point out that it does not just involve the government. Before there could be any implementation of a ward system there would have to be an amendment to the City of St. John's Act,so it would obviqusly have to come before the legislature. There are many aspects to be considered in connection with this , Mr. Speaker.

On the one hand,you have the situation as to whether in fact it is the most effective representation, where the councillors represent best when they represent all of a municipal area or whether in fact they can do their jobs better if they represent one segment or,on the other side of the coin,would become much more,shall we say, parochial than they ought to he to consider the overal needs.

N6w l"fith respect to the referendum. a referendum,of course, is not rnandatory,as the hon. member knows,but certainly a matter that the government would have to take it was a direct - obviously into consideration because SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 2631

Ap~ll 24,1980 :-a . :·t>.RSiiALL: I ~annot hear myself . ~!R . SPEAKER (SIM!-IS): hon. president speak: :-!R. ~~!'.ALL: Tape No . 997 AH-2 I ... ·onder, Mr. Speake~, L: ! may as:: .:or quiet? Order, please! I have diff::culty hearing the As I sa~ on the que~ion of the referendum, you know, the gove .rnment •,j()uld obviously have to take l:.~t inio censiderat: .lon '"'ith t.'le whole situation . I ',j()Uld point OUt tO t:he :ton . membe~ though, !1r.

Speaker, that: when che referendum was taken it was taken coincidental wi th the last municipal election and ,if memory serves me correct ,I believe there '"'ere something like 9500 voters in favour of a '"'ard system, something li ke 5000 , 2r332 ,. ·•

"~ - April 24, 1980 Tape 998 EC - l MR. W. MARSHALL: I believe, in a partial ward syst~, but then there were a substantial number; approximately 9,000, who were against a ward. system. So it was not like it was a referendum that was very conclusive and represented a large majority of the wishes. But certainly, as with any referendum, the government would certainly have to take that into consideration as part of the entire parcel in determining whether or not as a JU.tter of policy it would lead legislation in this House to bring effect to it. MR. E. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

E • ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the member A final, if I might, Mr .. Speaker. This is not the place to debate it or I would point out that, of course, we are elected to this House under a ward system as is, as far as I know, every parliamentary Legislature in the so-called English system - whatever it is called - the Anglo-Saxon system.

I wonder if the minister could indicate - and I realize that he is under no obligation to indicate, the question in fact may be on the verge of being out of order, but if he wishes, I am sure he can - whether the government are going to ask the House in this session to consider amendments to the City of St. John's Act? And I ask because the city has made it known publicly that they are - I do not know how; there is a mysterious osmosis process by which stuff comes from City Hall to Confederation Building and it then comes up here to the House.

But the city has indicated, I believe, that they are contemplating asking the House through the government to rewrite the City of St. John's Act, and I wonder if we might expect that in this session? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Spe.Jter, I can say the matter is under very active consideration. I do not know whether any legislation will be here before, say, the middle or end of ~Y, but certainly, as far as the government is concerned, as the hon. member will recall, government itself has initiated amendments, has indicated that we are now looking 2633

April 24, 1980 Tape 998 EC - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: at the City of St. John's Act with . respect to the provisions of zoning as to whether or not, in fact, there is too 1111.1ch discretion. And this &rase directly u a resW.t of the Heritage Foundation's apparent conflict with the discretionary powers of the · city of St. John's itself in connection with the ~uffett Bl.lilding. MR. E. ROBERTS: real conflict. MR. W. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) a very Well, it is a very real conflict, So as far as the government is concerned, for a mllllber of years amendments have been made to the City of St.

John's Act that have been suggested by council, but government is reviewing the entire City of St. John's Act, not only with respect to that, but with respect to the discretionary powers that are in the act itself for the council because I think mat - MR. E. ROBERTS : (Inaudible) • MR. W. MARSHALL: Well, there are all sorts of areas, but I think the thing that we are Mainly concerned with is the large amount of discretionary powers conferred upon the city council and I might say not just the city council but local. governments themselves.

I think it is a matter of concern that we have, but specifically with respect to the City of 2634

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 999 SD - 1 HR. W. HJI.RSHALL: St. John's and the controversies . ~~at have recently arisen with respect to zoning,that we are going to look into ~~is. It is necessary, as I say, as a result of the conflict wi~~ the Historic Trust and the Duffett Building but is equally, I think, necess~ and almost mandatory when you consider the developments that are occurring here and will occur· in and around the Avalon Peninsula and particularly the st. John's area as a result of offshore develop~~nt. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. F • WHITE : The hen. member for Lewisporte. Mr.

Speaker, rny question is for the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. c. Power) and it is a rather serious matter. It involves probably the loss of a couple of hundred jobs in ~~e Lewis porte- Botwood : Carman ville area as a result of ~~e government's decision to turn over large tracts of Crown Land to Price and now the mem who are involved in the export wood business can no longer get permits and a large number of loggers are going to be forced to lose their jobs.

I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not any pressure can be put on Price (Nfld~ to let some of this wood,that ~~ey do not need at the moment, go to those private operators so they can continue this major industry, probably one of best new industries to start in Central Newfoundland in a long time? HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Hinister of Lands and Forests. MR. C. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, as all han. members are aware,management units eight and nine in the Forest Management Division, and large tracts of it, were licence to Price-Abitibi in relationship to the re-opening and opening of ~~e mill in Stephenville whenit was changed from a linerboard mill to now a paper mill. There is a serious problem in that area as it relates to export wood. We are now into ~~e final stages of negotiations with Price-Abitibi and a suitable arrangement is being worked out so that it does allow for export wood so ~~at ~~ere is not a mono~oly situation arising in those areas that allows 2635

A?ril 24, 1980 M.'~ . C. PO~lER: but also for the export market. MR. !: . ~>'<liTE: MR. SPEA.'<ER {Simms): for Lewisporte . MR. F. WE!TE: '!'ape No. 999 so - 2 just Price-;l.bitibi to purchase wood A supplementary, Mr. Spea~er. A supplementa_~, the hon . member Mr. Speaker, the faC1: of the matt:er is that even today companies in that area, in the r.ewisporte area, are being refused permits to C:\lt further wood,.:!n addition,they have been threatened with fines even if they buy wood that has already been cut and is lying in. the 'H'OOds ready for export.

You know, thi s wood has to be pee.led and so on and creates in the last two years nearly $10 million into the econoJJ¥ of the area. I "'onder if the mini s ·ter could be more specific and tell us whether or not the present export conditions in that area will <;ontinue? MR. SPEJ\..:.:ER: The hon. the ~linist:er of Lands and Forests. 2636 ~~

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1000 EL - 1 MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as I stated in my earlier answer, we have made arrangements in the negotiations with Price-Abitibi that there will continue to be expert wood and export in that area so that not only loggers but also sawmillers will be ~¥dtected. The conditions that have arisen today, I am not fully aware of as to who is denying access to the wood or who is refusing to issue permits or who is refusing to buy wood. That part of the question. I will be glad to take under advisement.

I can only reiterate my original answer, that we have made conditions in the negotiations with Price-Abitibi that export wood will be allowed to cut in that area so as to protect both loggers and sawrnillers. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, would the minister tell the House - he keeps referring to arrangements being made with Price­ what the arrangements are that were made with Price (Nfld.) and whe~her or not the present level of export wood can continue? MR. SPEAKER {SimmS) : The hen. the Minister. MR, C. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I again tell the member as in my earlier answers ~ his two previous questions, negotiations are in process. We are in the final stages. There will be conditions allowed in that area so that we have export wood so we do protect both sawmillers and loggers and that is all that we can announce at the time until the negotiations are finalized. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. the member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Lands and Forests. I understand, Mr.

Speaker, that there are 687 barrels of matacil stored in bunker 630, I believe it is,on Eagle Road in Stephenville and that the Council in the area are quite concerned about it. I was just wondering if the Minister could tell me whether 2637

April 24, 1980 MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (S imms) : Resources and Lands. MR. C. POWER: Tape No. 1000 EL - 2 there is any danger of spillage ? The hon. the Minister of Forests, Mr. Speaker, that matacil that is stored in Stephenville is being inspected on a daily basis. We have been assured by the company that sold us that it is safe to leave it in the barrels that it is now in for at least another year.

We are now in a precess of asking the State of Maine, both the Province of Quebec, the Province of New Brunswick and also the company which sold that rnatacil to the Government of Newfoundland if they are interested in purchasing that matacil from us. If the matacil is not sold by the Fall, then we will have to get involved in a re-barreling process because the matacil is quite corrosive and after a period of several years the barrels do have to be changed.

We are hoping to have a reply from the companies and the State of Maine and the provinces very shortly and I certainly will be announcing to a~l the members of the House and to the Province the decision of government when those negotiations are completed. MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for ' Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: A supplemenatary, Mr. Speaker. A supplemenatary, the hon. the Member It was my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the label on those barrels said that they should be re-canned this year. As a matter of fact, it was someone who saw the label told me that.

As well, the former Minister of Forestry had said that they would be re­ canned this year and the minister has just said that the stuff is very corrosive. Now, that was put there in 1977, Mr. Speaker, and it was canned 2638

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1001 DW - 1 MR. J. HODDER: the year before that. And my understanding is that it is supposed to be re~canned this year. Could the· minister tell me whether they have - I know it has bee~ inspected but, you know, you cannot see inside the can. Could the minister assure me that there will be no spillage? MR. SPEAKER(Simms) MR. C. POWER: The han. minister. Mr. Speaker, again I want to assure the han. member and all members of this hon.

House that a portion,and a fairly significant portion of that matacil was re-barrelled last Fall at a very significant expense to government,that we had to check with the company,that they assure us that the barrels are safe until a period up until next year,and that we as a government hope to have that matacil disposed of before the end of this year. If it is not dis­ posed of,then we will simply re-barrel to make sure that no spillage takes place. MR. J. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that this stuff is very highly toxic and, I guess, the fact that they use one ounce per square mile when they are spraying would tell that this is a very concentrated chemical. Could the minister tell me how you go about cleaning up a spill such as that if one of those cans were to break or a number of them were to break?or even if they sold it now 1 would they have to re-can before they moved the barrels? But my main question is how we go about cleaning up if there is a spill7 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands. 2639

April 24 , 1980 Tape No. 1001 DW - 2 MR. C. POWER: Again, Mr. Speaker, let me reiterate that that matacil is being stored according to the directions and specifications of the manufacturer, that we are cert.ainly hoping to have the.t ma.tacil sold before this Fall,that if spillage should take place then certainly provision are in place both with the Emergency Measures Organization and other persons to make.sure that any spillage that would take place would be cleaned up quickly and promptly and without any ill effects to the general public.

That is one of the reasons it is stored in an area that is far removed from the public and it is inspected on a daily basis. And,again,all I can say at this stage in the game that that matacil storage is per­ fectly safe. MR. J. HODDER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I indicated a final sup- plementary ,unless the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) wishes to yield. A final supplementary, the hon. :.member for Port au Port. 11R. J . HODDER: Since the former minister said it would be re-canned this year, is the minister - MR. POWER: 11R. J. HODDER: It was re-canned last year.

It was not re-canned 1 it was stored there after the spray programme. MR. C. POWER: MR. J. HODDER: It was re-barrelled last year . It was not re-barrelled last year. But since the =ormer minister said it would be re- barrelled,are you not now sort of fudging on the issue because there is $500,000 worth of matacil there. And if it is supposed to be re-canned and if the minister made an announcemen~ that it was goi ng to be re-canned - the former minister - are you not now fudging on that particular issue? ~IR. SPE AKE R: The hon. minister. 2640

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1001 DW - 3 MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, again either the member is not listening very well qr he is not hearing what I am saying. Last year we re-barrelled a large portion of the matacil ,wha_t we thought may have been unsafe or the barrels were approac~ing 2o41

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1002 NM - 1 HR. POWER: stage where it was considered to be unsafe. We do a daily inspection. It is perfectly safe now. If we can sell the matacil before this Fall,there is no need to re-barrel it. It would be an unnecessary expense. The companies, particularly the company which has made some inclination to us that they are willing to purchase the matacil back, have said that we do not have to re-barrel if they are going to purchase it. MR. HODDER:. some of it? MR.

POWER: How much did you re-barrel if you re-barrelled We re-barrelled all that was last year considered to be 1 or even approaching the level that we might consider as being ~,safe. MR. HODDER: approaching that~ MR. POWER: Well 1would the minister tell us how much was We spent $10,000 last year in re-barrelling a fairly significant portion of it. MR. HODDER: How many barrels did you use? MR. POWER: I am not exactly sure. I wculd be glad to find out for the member. All I am saying is that what is there now is safe. MR. HODDER: How many barrels are unsafe? MR. POWER: There are no barrels there now that are unsafe.

MR. MORGAN: Go home,boy. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett). MR. ROBERTS: He is just lapping it up over there. MR. STIRLING: He is aware of the problem that exists. There is a bridge from Greenspond to Ship Island that has, according to the council, has tilted at a twenty degree angle and there has been worsening over the last few days and a total collapse is very likely. The minister is aware 2642

April 24, 1980 Tape No . 1002 NH - 2 ~lR. S'!'r.li.ING : of the problem . I mention ·ea it yesteicay and he was going to check into it. Could he report to us today? MR. SP El\.lCS.R: ( Simnis) Conununicat:.icns. ~lR . SR.."'TT : The hon. Minister of Transportation and Hr. Speaker, I had t .!:le staff check ·t:.hat out:. lt is my understa.'ldi ng that part of that structure acts -as a break•.-ater . MR. ROBERTS: ~!R. 3Ri:.""TT: SOto!E f!ON . MEMBERS : MR. BRETT : so it is federal , i .s it? That pa_rt of it is, just ~~at part of it . Hear, hear!

The remainder - well, let us put it this way . ~y department does not have a presence on Greenspond Island . You know ·,;e have no responsibility for any of the roads or bridges that are there, for the simple reason that they have a council; of course, therefore, all the roads are maintained by council . Some t:ime ago our staff went l.n and inspected the bridge at the request of the council.

There is no q-.Jestion about it ::hat something needs to be done . ! tnnk that: the appropriate channel through •.-1hich the council should go is the Depart:ment of Hunicipal Affairs a:1d P.ous:!.ng and if perchance they are luci<y enough to get some money from cha t: d.epa..rcne nt, chen we would !:>e only too happy :o provide whate'ler help we could in t!l.e way of engineering or const:lting se--vices or any o:::her '"'ay tha ·t. we could hel_;>. But:. r:.'le actual pro)ect. cannoc be funded :::hrough this departme.n::: because i::: comes under t.he ~~ic of the local council . MR.

STIRLING: A sapplemen~ary. 2643 .,

April 24,1980 Tape No. 1003 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: I am surprised because yesterday the mini?ter indicated something would have to be done. The ~son that he does not have a responsibility in Greenspond for the highway is that there are no roads in Greenspond. It is completely and utterly without roads. MR. ROBERTS: What about George Cross's causeway? ~~- STIRLING : And this is an emergency type situation, Mr. Speaker.

The town council of Greenspond has said in a telegram they will not assume any responsibility for any damages to fishing boats, injury or possible loss of life to persons travelling or under the bridge. It is entirely either a federal or provincial responsibility. There is a breakwater and a bridge and no roads. So they have no funds. There is nothing the town council can do. Would the minister agree to take it up with Municipal Affairs or whichever department he needs to because there is no question that it would be his responsibility if there were a highway there. It is an emergency tyoe situation.

Will the minister agree to take it up with the minister of :1unicipal Affairs(Mr. Windsor)? This is a small council that has no money and it is a major problem. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Transportation. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to sound like I am callous or anything,but I do not see why I should take it up with the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor).

There are an awful lot of bridges and roads in local communities around this Province that need repairs and if there is a council there then of course it is up to that council,if they cannot maintain them themselves, to go after the department. Now I have already indicated that my staff will help in any way that we can,but I am not going to take on the responsibility of trotting off to the Minister of Health (Mr. House) if somebody has a health problem or trotting off to the minister of something else if there is another problem.

As far as I am concerned,the council should get in touch with the minister or the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing and outline the problem and I hope that they can come up with some solution; or with the MBA for that matter, you yourself, but my department will do 2644

April 24,1980 Tape !lo. 1003 Al!-2 :·!."(. i!RETT: anything in this "-'Orld that '"'e can to hel? but I am not goi:..""lq to accept. -cesponsibilitles !or whlc~ my depa:tment is not responsible. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~U: . Speaker, my question is for the ~inister of Transportation (Mr. Brett), Sir.

I would lil<e to asl< the hon. gentleman if he indicated in any way, shape or form that he was goi~g to go to 2.arbour Sre~on or Terrenceville yester~ay morning to meet with the group of people, hundreds of people, who had turned out to me et the hoo . gentleman in connection with the road conditions in that area? Did the hon. gentleman say he was going to be there, because 2645

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1004 SD- 1 MR. S. NEARY: the people obviously thought the . hon. gentleman was going to be there and he did not turn up,neither did the member, and ·the people want to know why·, Did the hon. gentleman say he was going? Did he indicate in any way, shape or or form to these people, who waited for hours for the hon. gentleman to arrive in Terrenceville,and he did not show up. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I did not indicate to the peoole on the picket line,but I did indicate to the member that enroute to another part of the Province yesterday I might find it convenient or possible to be on site. But as the hen. member knows, you know, nothing could get out of St. John's yesterday, it was almost impossible to drive out much less than to fly out, so for that reason I was not able to be t.'J.ere. MR. S • NEARY : NR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. I'.R. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. member Did the hon. gentleman,~fter being very discourteous with these people, did the hen. gentleman have the courtesy to call the people to tell them that he would come to the community at the earliest opportunity to discuss the bad, deplorable road conditions in the Terrenceville area? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Min"ister of Transportation and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I did not call them because I was not talking to them in t."J.e first place. I do not know if the MHA for the area called them or not,but I did not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

E. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the President of the Council (Mr. w. Marshall) . On August lOth of last year in Goose Bay the Premier ended up making a press release,and in his press relea$e he proposed that the Labrador Resources Advisory Council become the primary contact for 2o46

...... .. ?.pril 24, 198 0 '!'ape No . 1004 so - 2 ~·lR . ::. HISCOC::.: consultation concemin<: :-esource . developn:ent issues in Lab ra dor. '!'he q~stion to ;:."e :niniste r: has t.'lat taken place a.'ld is the Labrador Resources Advisory Council the only or" the primary body for consul tation on resource matters in Labrador? MR. SPEk~R (Simms): The hon . the !'resicent of the Council. MR . W. I'.A.~HI\LL: I think, Mr. Speaker, the hon . the ~tinister of Rural , Agricultural and Nor-~ern Development (M r. J. Goudie) could quite adeq=tely answer thae question. :!'IR.

SPEP.KER: The hon. the Mir.ister of Rural, Agricultural and North ern Developme nt. :e . J. GOtiDIE: Tha."lk you, Mr . Speake r. T:,ere was soc-.e o;:.'ler conve:-sation going on here, ! did not !-.ear all of t."le sea~mene, ~ut I t."'tinlt t.'le hen . me:rber was asking t.'le c;uestion whet.'l .er or not t.'le Premier in his state:nent last year :.denti!ied t..'1e Labrador Resources Advisory Council as U\e <;ro1JP to consult with in ten.s of :-esource development in Labraeor . rt t.'<a~ was U\e question, ~!r . Speaker, the answer is yes. )IR. E. HISC:OC!<: Supplemen-.:ary, !'.r . Speaker . l'.R.

SPEAl<ER: Supplemen tary, the hon . zr.ember fc:- Eagle River . !-!.~ . E. IIISCOC!<: Hit!'! regard to the 2647

April 24, 1980 Tape 1005 EC - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: last couple of days the H~ppy Vall~y - Goose Bay Town Council as well as the Chamber of Commerce in Happy Valley - Goose Bay is sen~g a letter to all M.H.A.s, all development associations, all council$ and all chambers of coll'«<ll!rce in Labr~dor, basically saying that they have not been consulted in resource development, and ~lso they express the concern that the Labrador Advisory Council itself needs to be monitored a little more closely.

They feel that they are independent and also that their attitude towards development in Labrador is particularly negative, could the minister advise this House what position the government are going to take on this suggestion from the Happy Valley - Goose Bay Chamber of Commerce and Town Council with regard to 1110nitoring the Labrador Resource Advisory Council? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : and Northern Development. MR. J. GOUDIE: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural Mr.

Speaker, I c~nnot give any response to that question until I get some kind of representation from the various groups that the member ' identified. I do not have any correspondence or anything else to that effect yet. MR. E. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: for Eagle River. MR. E, HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. the member In that regard, that is why I asked the hen. the President of the Council (Mr. w. Marshall) - letters ~d telegrams were sent to the Premier ~d the Premier sent telegrams back to them.

There is a concern basically with the Labrador Resource Advisory Council that they are concerned with resource matters, and,if they stick to that area, I am sure a lot of people would not particularly mind, but they ~re wandering into other areas. For example, there is a conference down in Labrador now with regard to regional government. Could the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development state the position of the government with regard to regional government in Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. 2648

>.pril 24, 1980 Tape 1005 EC - 2 Mll.. J. GOOOIE : Mr. Speaker, no, I c:annot give gove~t's pos _i~on em relj'ional c:Qnt.ro-1 or govern11uU1t or administration, whatever you want .tO eal.l it, iD Labrador. It has be• obvious o-ver tbe last nUIIIber of YIS&rs since I have been ~ociated with governa.nt ,Ml:. Speaker, that we have been dec:entral..izinq, ~lt' department, I thi.nk, is a !~rime exu~Ple. KR., E. ROBERTS: _ (Inaudible) • Ma. J. GOODIE: we are tal.king about decentraiizinq the administration, Mr. Speaker, all4 ~t is what has :been happeninq. Northern develoJ;l.III8D.t is an example.

I do not know if the IIIEUIIber for the Strait of Selle I:Sle lMr. E. Boberts) acp:ees ~r disaqrees with that particular concept, ·but neverthel..esa 1 it is there. But in terms of qivinCJ ~y kind o-f a. COII!miblent or a defiD ·ition. to reqional goveJ:I~~~~Bnt, which I think. is what the llll!lllher for 2!Jua • \.i

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1006 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) asked, no, t do not know if there has even been a discussion on it. I am not aware of one. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) 1 who seems to be getting a free ride this session. I will see if I c~~ get his name in the news. I always succeed with the Premier.

Down here at Torbay Airport o~ the RCAF side where all these buildings were put up during the Second World War by the Royal Canadian Air Force, I notice now that a lot of the buildings are being torn down. What is happening down there? Does the provincial government own that land? And if they own it, will all these buildings be torn down? What does the government have in mind for this particular area,which seems to be prime land? MR. SPEAKER: MR. YOUNG: The han. Minister of Public Works and Services. Mr.

Speaker, these buildings are in a delapidated condition and we tendered and they are being torn down and the land will remain with the Department of Public Works. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member for Would the han. gentleman indicate if the land will be used for an extension of the airport? Will it be awarded to private enterprise and,if so, if it is going to be sold or leased, will public tenders be called or will just the choice few, the favoured few have the first crack at that prime land? It seems to be the only industrial land left in the st.

John's area. MR. SPEAKER: MR. YOUNG: The hon. Minister of Public Works. Mr. Speaker, there are no chosen few in the Department of Public Works, T1~y go to tender and I am sure there will be tenders called, legal tenders, if we decide to use the land. But at the present moment there is no specific use for the land. 2650

A;>:-il 24, 1980 ~L.~ . N=:A.~Y: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for La.Poile. ~IR • !'E.IUU' : Tape No. 1006 NM- 2· A final supplemencary . A final supplementary, the hon . member Mr. Speaker , I have hearc chat c:he gover~~t has in mind an industrial park down there, O~es the hon. gentleman know anything about that? Could he enlight:en t:he House on wh ether or not the government intends to make an industrial park out of that particular site adjacent to the airport? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: When it is finalized, ~tr .

Speaker, if the governm~~t decides to use it for an industrial park, ·tn ere will be an announcement made at the a~propriate time. MR. S?EAia:R: One quick :inal quesrion, the hen. member for Torngat ~ounta ins. MR. 'Nl\..~CU:N: Yes, Mr. Speaker, ~Y quest:ion is c:o the 1ti.niscer of c."'e Environment (Mrs. Ne· .. hook) • I understand now :or some ti.me that the minister received the Powell :tepo= on uranium development in Labrador , Could the minisce:- advise t:he House what progress has !:leen c:aking place? Has it been presented to Cabinet?

Has ~~y decision been mad~ yet or what t:ime will the House be notified of c."'e decis~on? .liR. ~B.ERTS : A quick question . M.~ . SPEAKER: The hon . ~in~ster of Consume .\.ffairs and the =:nvironment:. 2t351

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1007 DW - 1 MRS. H. NEWHOOK: We have received the BRINEX ---~ public hearing board report; I think it has been in my office now for probably a little over a week. Our officials are reviewing the report, I am reading it mys~lf,and we getting extra copies made.Under the guidance of our Environmental Assessment Act there will be thirty days to have it distribu­ ted to all interested people and when we get the extra copies made, of course, it will be distributed to members of the Cabinet.

And I am hoping that we will have our recommendations ready within that thirty day period to present to Cabinet. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of a Bill entitled,"An Act Respecting The Establishment Of A Newfound­ land And Labrador Arts Council.'' (Bill No. 16) of Belle Isle. ~R. E. ROBERTS: The han. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, when we rose on Tuesday I had made an erudite, brilliant, comprehensive and compelling analysis of the bill and I do not need to add to that. MR. SPEAKER: order, please: MR. E.

ROBERTS: I do not know if the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) has roller skates on or whether he is going over to find about public tenders or not. I would say politics makes strange bed fellows, Sir, and perhaps strange seat mates. Mr. Speaker, I think I can say in response to the unspoken question from the minister or from the learned House Leader (Mr. Marshall) on the other side, that we on this side will not go on on this bill What we have 2652

l ~L. April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1007 ow - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: to say has been said. That applies to my friend for Terra Nov~ (Mr. Lush) as well. Mr. Speaker, we think this is a reasonably good start on a very worthwhile project. We have a number of detailed concerns but I say to the-· minister that we will raise these at the committ~e stage, Committee of the Whole. I think in particular my friend for Lewisporte (Mr. White),who could not be here earlier to speak on 'the bill ,has some very penetrating and very incisive comments and questions with respect to the detailed provisions of this bill.

We will raise them in committee and we will see how the minister responds to them there. thing more, Sir. I do not need t6 say any­ There have been some excellent speeches made and,like most members of the House 1 I could give my own views on what the future holds for us on cultural affairs in this Province and the importance of things of the spirit and things of the mind in addition to things of the body and things of the pocketbook, the latter being the type of matter we normally discuss in the House.

But really, I think che council ought to be set up, we will see how its work goes ahead, and a year or two down the road will be the time ~o measure the merits of its performance and measure the worth of its achieve- :nents. I do want to say that the membership on the council is, ! think, well chosen. I am particularly delighted with Dr. Storey and Mr. Maloney as tne Chairman, I believe and the Vice-Chairman respectively. Dr.

Storey is well known to anybody interested in the intellectual or artistic fields in this Province and has devoted a number of years of his life to a massive contribution which will shortly, I understand, be published and that is a dictionary of Newfoundland. I 2653

April 24 , 1380 Tape No. 1007 ow - 3 MR . E. ROBERTS: think that is a very worth- ~hile project and I understan~ that in the scholarly sense it will be a landmark and that is what we would expect from Dr. Storey and then no doubt that is what we would get. Mr. Maloney is well knQwn to many of us.some of us in the House had the opportunity of serving with Aiden Maloney.

He sat for one term or most of one term as·.the member for Ferryland district and I believe, Sir, with considerable distinction, Before that term ended, that was the 1966 House, Aiden was elected and he entered the Cabinet as l'linister of Fisheries and one of his IIHI.jOr achievements is one of the great achievements of the fisheries 265 4

April 24,1980 Tape No. 1008 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: policy these last thirty years in this Province and that was the creation of the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation and Aiden Maloney was offered by - I guess Jack Davis was Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa; in any event whoever was minister in Ottawa it did not matter- ~iden Maloney was offered the position of first president of the corporation and I know,he and I were and are good friends, that he felt it was a commitment that he had to carry thro~gh.

The Cabinet and the Premier were reluctant to see Aiden leave that phase of elected public life,bu~ it was decided that was the best way he could serve the people of this Province and in particular the fishermen,so he resigned and,! think it is only appropriate to say 1discharged the duties of president of the corporation with exemplary zeal and set the corporation on a course that it has followed ever since.

Aiden also is extraordinarily well-grounded in the artistic field and I think it is a compliment to the minister that he and whoever advised him in choosing the people who make up this committee, this council, have sought out a man with such experience in public life and such knowledge of this Province as well as with such a depth and a background and a feeling for the artistic pursuits.So I could go on and it is a subject that any one of us could speak on at great lengths, Sir. I have a deep concern and a deep passion for the cultural and artistic life of this Province.

I have no pretensions to being either cultured or artistic,but I do very much value these things and do very much try to appreciate them and I would h ~pe and believe that that is something that every Newfoundlander would more and more come to do and the establishment of the council hopefully will lead to that end and for that reason we support it , Sir. We shall debate the matter further at committee, not on principle, in ·orinciple we do support it wholeheartedly.But,as I said,my friend from Lewisporte (Mr.

White) has some very real questions, some very important questions and I would hope the minister will deal with those, respond to them in a positive sense and deal with them. I think there are some positive suggestions that can 2655

April 24,1980 Tape ~o . 1008 ~-2 ~IR. :\OSERTS: be ~ace c~at ~~uld improve wrAt 1as I have saic,in our view is a reasonably good bill . M..~. CHA.t..'UolAN (Sutt): closes the debate. and Culture. ~IR .OAWE: If c.'te hon. minister speaks now he The hon. Minister of Tourism, Recreation Thank you , Mr. Speaker .

I have been ve ry interested in the comments that have been made ~y hon. members on both sides wi~h regard to this particular bill,particularly as it relates to local ar~ists, local individuals in their particular area who have become either famous )r infamous as the case may be through their artistic talents and endeavours.

I th.ir.k !fter having some experience in travelll.ng around Newfoundland and having lived in a number of places and being familiar with from time to time local artists, local Lodividuals who provided varJ.ous forms of entertainment to people ""ithin the communJ.ty and t:o their :rJ.ends 1 I remember days in •wi'At used to be the :cember for La!'oile' s (to\r. :-:eary ) former district:, on Sell Islar.d goi:tg over to a ti.:ne somewhere around the :-lew Year 's Eve area,and it: ..as tradition to have a bean supper at: those times and the music that occured after the bea .n supper was some~:imes provided by each and ev~ry individual in t.'l. e place.

There was some reference 2656

April 24, 1980 Tape 1009 EC - l MR. R. DAWE: There was some reference in just about everyone's speech made to sport. 'I think the member for LaPoile (Mr. s.

Neary) indicated that probably mv bias in the recreation field came forward when I initially introduced this bill, but as each speaker on beth aides of the House get to his feet, I think somewhere along in his speech, each of them referred to some area of recreation or some area of sport, and I think it is only fitting that these types of activities be mentioned, because they are indeed part ~f our provincial heritage, our provincial culture, and in some cases are indeed in themselves a real art. I notice this coming Summer, Mr.

Speaker, the Newfoundland Indian Government are holding a conference, a three week period of meetings, of discussions, and they are going to .be involved in native games, in nativoe sports activities, This, of course, will take place in the historic district of St. George's on Sandy Point. I would encourage all 1118111bera who ;are available in the mont.~ of July to probably take the occasion to travel to Sandy Point and see these particular activities , I had the good fortune in attending high school in St . John's of being subjected to Mr. Ted Russell as a teacher for a number of years .

Anyone ~no has found Shakespeare or some classical items of literature to be .boring would have had a real treat for themselves if they ever could have heard Mr. Russell in his presentations. They were anything but boring. Shakespeare, as far as we were concerned in high school, was a man from Pidgin Inlet. The Premier has put considerable thought and effort and dedication into this particular bill and it is through his ultimate direction that this bill is now before this House.

I think I spent some time in the same school .board as the Premier, and when I visited his school, which was Grant Collegiate at the time, in Springdale where he taught, it was very notict~A.ble when you went in through the school to the staff room door, that just about every teacher on staff had a guitar, an accordion or a violin lying on his desk. And after s~~ool, after the children 2657

April 24, 1980 Tape 1009 EC - 2 MR. R. DAWE: had gone, it was an entertaining place to be. And this is probably where · the Premier perfected his talent of playing the spoons, for those of you who hilve had occasion to hear him -do that. Also I might mention the talen""ts of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan). Those of ·you wbo have not had t.'le extreme pleasure of hearing him play the guitar are in for a real treat. The Min~ter of Health (Mr. w.

Housel indicated that he could, in fact, not only recite the songs of Newfoundland, but as well, sing them - again, il real treat for those of you who will experience that some time in the future if you have not already done so. On March 22nd of this year, Georgiillla Cooper, the author of this particular book of poetry and sketches Cillled The Deserted Isla~d, celebrated her ninety-fifth birthday here in St. John's. Unfortunately, only a few short days later, Georgiana Cooper passed away. Those of you who have not had the opportunity to read this book of poetry 1 I co11111end it to you.

Georgiana Cooper was not only a fine artist, but also an excellent poet and I think thilt every hon. member and the people in the community at large should endeavour to read that particular book. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. R. DAilE : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition milde reference to the fact that if he could ch...nge the bill he would put in a clause that would allow for private contributions or corpcrate donations, and I am pleased that 'ltl'f colleague, the Minister of Finance (~. J. CoHins) 2658

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1010 EL - 1 MR. R. DAWE: ment~oned this point in his speech and corrected the situation. In fact, the Bill does go into great det.ail in providing an opportunity for the Arts Council to be able to solicit funds from private and from corporate interests and so add to the amount of resources that they would have a~ their disposal to help support the arts community and the arts individuals in our province. I might make reference to the lltemher from Terra Nova(T.

Lush) 1 who indicated in his speech that figure skating, which was a very popular activity in his area,was not funded by this particular government or indeed by my department, and if the hon. memher was listening, I would tell him how much money we ·are giving to figure skating. The Provincial Figure Skating Association in this province, last year received $11,650 towards supporting their particular activity. At the same time, they received anywhere from $7,000 to $8,000 in any given year to help support them in their training activities towards the Newfoundland and Canada Games.

So, this is a significant contribution, and I think it is that plus ;nany other areas that are being funded in this manner nelp support the young people in this province, and some of the less young, I suppose, engage in a particular activity. I just wanted to make that point. The han. the member for St. John's North (J.

Carter) indicated that he hoped that the Arts Council, part of their mandate would be to support the choirs and various orchestra groups within the Province and I can assure him that, that indeed was part of the intention and I understand they have already received several applic­ ations for assistance from similar organizations and groups. ~ apologies to the Minister of Finance (Dr.J.Collins). I forgot to indicate the fact that he is an accomplished jews'-harp player and I truly .apologize to him for not mentioning that earlier. 2659

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1010 EL - 2 AN. HON . MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. R. EIAWE: There were a number of people who indicated that probably the Arts Council should direct some of their attention and impetus into the educational procedures that are going on within the Province, and ~~fortunately I did not hear the speech made by the Minister of Education(L.VERGE) when she spoke. I do not know whether in fact she made reference to the proposed new curriculum changes for high school within the Province as they relate to the Arts and so on.

I understand that there is a proposal, not only to carry on the normal types of programs as they relate to music consultants and curriculum guides in the arts and so on, and what is called, I believe in the school system now as New- foundlandia. But also there are proposed courses that will include Newfoundland culture, creative writing, theatre and the performing arts, media a.~d art history, the study of Canadian art and the environmental arts as they relate tq our landscape and our different topography around the Province.

I understand there are a number of school boards which are ~ing their own efforts towards promoting the arts within the Province 1 and I would like to probably point out one at this time, although there are many others. The Labrador East Integrated School Board, through their fine arts supervisor, host an annual fine arts festival and by so doing, bring arts within the school system up to a much higher profile and I think they are to be complimented very deeply for that effort.

When I introduced the bill initiall y, I mentioned the fact that we should be very proud of our Arts and Culture Centres as facilities around the Province and I had the good fortune of 2660

April 24 , 1980 Tal?e No. 1010 EL - 3 MR. R. DAW'E: bein~ able to ~ttend the last play of the Newfoundland Drama Fes.ti val in Grand Falls. .lind the adjudicator, in his final adj uclication J.ater that evening, complimented this province, and I think we all should be proud of his comments, when he said that our Arts and Culture Centres represent • the finest group of Arts and Cul.ture Centres anywhere in North America. AN. liON .MEMBER: Tilear, hear. MR. R. DAWE: .lind I think we can be very proud of that. I think, in c.ol!lbination with the Arts Coun.cil in· combination with the arts and cultural.

section of rrry particular department, ·in ~operation with the arts centres themselves and in cooQeration with each and every individual within the Province. I think we are making fizm and definite strides towards developing a sound and effective manner in which we can promote our provincial. heritage, our Newfoundland 2661

April 24, 1980, Tape lOll, Page 1 -- apb MR. DAWE: culture and, indeed, provide an opportunity for Newfoundland artists to develop their · talents to their fullest. Mr. Speaker, I would like at this time to move second reading of this bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! On Motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Establishment Of A Newfoundland And Labrador A~ts Council", (Bill No. 16) read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Preparing to call Committee of Supply, I notice it is not one of the motions on the Order Paper,or at least I do not see it here.

But,anyway, it is supposed to be there. Committee of Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply on Head III, Executive Council, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Order, please! Shall 302-0l carry? MR. NEARY: Head III, Executive Council. The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Chairman, we are doing the Premier's salary so it is only fitting, I believe, and appropriate, Mr. Chairman, that somebody on the government side should tell us if the Premier is going to be in his seat today while we are discussing his estimates. MR.

MARSHALL: If the hon. member will yield I would explain. MR. NEARY: I will gladly yield . I want to find out because we have a few things we want to say to the hon. gentleman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. 2662

April 24, 1980, Tape lOll, Page 2 -- apb MR. 'MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Premier had intended to be here t~is afternoon but at the present time he is due to speak at a conference in Halifax on Canadian unity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: He was due to leaye tomo.rrow. Because he was the keynote speaker at the conference he did not want to miss it 1 so he went to Gander today. Now in the meantime, any questions that the hon. gentleman has we will be quite prepared to answer.

And if there are any that we cannot answer we will certainly take notice of them and I am sure the Premier will be glad to on his return. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : MR. NEARY : Mr. Chairman . The hon. the member for LaPoile. The irony of it all! The Premier is gone to Halifax to speak about Canadian unity but in this Legislature, where he was elected to sit, he has done more to destroy Canadian unity by his attack on the Province of Quebec - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - at the worst possible time it could happen.

That is one of the things.! wanted to raise with the hon. gentleman toda y. The hon. gentleman will not get any praise or any accolade across Canada for asking the federal government to force the Province of Quebec to allow a transmission line to go across their Province right on the eve of the referendum. Very poor timing indeed, as I have said before. And I am not going to belabour the point but then, within a matter of a few days,we had another minister in the Tory administration get up and attack the Province of Quebec. Mr. Chairman, it is rather 2663

April 24, 1980, Tape 1011, Page 3 -- apb MR .• NEARY! least, it is hypocritical. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. THOMS: Talking about Canadian unity. hypocritical. To sa y the Write Dear Abby. I have heard it all now. MR. NEARY: Can you imagine!

The Premier of this Province who has done more in the past week - you would not know but he deliberately set out to wreck Cpnfederation, gone over to Halifax to talk about Canadian unity, the very man who himself,inside and outside th .is Bouse in the last year or so,has tried to imitate Rene Levesque and Lougheed out in Western Canada by, through their greed, trying to get their arms around the world, by saying that they want everything. Not prepared to share anything, they want it all, they are going to grab 2664

April 24, 1980 Tape No.l012 NM - l MR. NEARY: everything, grab it all. Talking like separatists. The advisors out on televisio~ and radio talking like separatists. And the Premier, instead of being here while his estimates are being put throu~h ~h~ House, takes off for Halifax to talk about Canadian unit~. Well,we have heard it all now, Mr. Chairman. We have heard it all.

I wanted to also, if the Premier had been in his seat, I wanted to raise this matter of his trip to New York recently and his meeting with Mobil Oil and with the Governor of the State of New York in connection with the export of power, electricty from the Lower Churchill. You know, Mr. Chairman, I will say this straight away, that if I did not have to look at a calendar, if I was not reminded by the calendar that this was 1980, I would swear that we were back in this House to 1965. MR. WHITE:" In the Smallwood days. MR.

NEARY: In the smallwood days when the matter of the Anglo-saxon'route first came up and it looks now, as The Daily News said today, that Mr. smallwood's dream is about to come true. MR. MORGAN: Good old Joe. MR. NEARY: The present Premier,who tells us to step into the eighties with Peckford, that was the campaign slogan in the election, "Step into the eighties ~i·th Peckford." Forget the past and start life anew. Forget it. Blot out the seven.years of Tory corruption, jump over that.

Go back to the Joey era when it is to your advantage but do not talk about the Moores Administration or talk about the seven years of corruption in this Province. Blot all that out as if it never happened. That does not exist. All is sweetness and light in this House. That is the way it has to be. You are not supposed to zero in on the government, on the Premier, afraid you might offend the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout), or you might offend somebody on this side of the House. Everything has to be sweetness and light. 2665

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1012 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: But we are, Mr. Chairman, we are as if the clock has been turned back to 1965 when the Premier of that day was involved in a savage controversy with the then Premier of Quebec, Premier Lesage, when all the bombings were taking place over in the Province of Quebec. The Anglo-Saxon route was raised at that time. And now we are back again,after being told for seven years, seven years in this House we were told day in and day out that not one kilowatt of power from the Lower Churchill would be exported. There would be no surplus we were told.

Study after study was done by the Tory Administration,we are told. Study after study indicated that the consumers alone in this Province, because Mr. Crosbie told us there was going to be a shortage of electricity in Newfoundland by l981 1 that there would not be any surplus power to export. And all the power would be used by consumers in this Province and the surplus would be used for industrial development in Labrador.

And now the Premier takes his briefcase and his entourage and he heads for New York to try to make a deal with the State of New York to take the surplus power from the Lower Churchill, after setting off $110 million explosions on either side of the Strait of Belle Isle - MR. STAGG: $220 million? MR. NEARY: $110 million, and telling us that no power was going to be exported, now he is off trying to make a deal.

And when I asked him a quescion yesterday during the_Oral Question Period about this fifty/fifty joint cost-shared programme between the State of New York and between Newfoundland to do a study on the Lower Churchill, I am told by the Premier no strings were attached. He said, "No strings attached." He said, "I told the State of New York and I told the Governor of New York, You are not getting one kilowatt of power even though you are going to pay fifty per cent of the cost of a study."' Now how naive and how stunned, Mr. Chairman, does the hon. gentleman think we are.

Wait until he goes to the bond market. $3 billion 2666

April 24, 198 0 Ta pe No . 101 2 Nl-1 - 3 ~!R. NEARY: that project is going to cost. And the people he is dealing with in the State of New York know th .at that is not peanuts, . that you have to get that money somewhere . Nine chances out of ten the financin<> will come from the mo .neybags South ·of Ule !lorder down in the Onitee States. And ! do not suppose he thinks we are naive enough, stupid enough to think t.llat in return for pay ing fifty per cent of this study on the Lower Churchil1 ,that the State of New York is riot expe cting to qet anythinq in return?

Since when did the Americans become th at generous? Do they have a Marshall Plan now for Newfoundland? Are they getting kind and generous and charitable and have just developed 2667

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1013 SD - l MR. S • NEARY : a ~ew Marshall plan for Newfoundland? Is that what you are doing? or are they investing in favours from t..'li:; P!:Uvince for the future, namely, the export of power, as 'Joey used to say, "To light the lights on Broadway and to operate the subway~- of New York." So we are right back to where we were, right back to square one, back to 1965 when this matter first came up when the government of that day became embroiled in a controversy with the Province of Quebec. Ah, Mr. Chairman, here is the technique and here is the strategy that this crowd use all the time.

I do not have time to explain it now because I only have a minute left,but I will be back on my feet again. And I want to explain the strategy of this crowd in the last year or so. You would not know but we were the government and they were the Opposition the way they are behaving. They are atta~king us all of the time, trying to put us on the defensive; you would swear we were the government. They are the government; the whole trouble "is they are not governing. MR. WARREN: No confidence. MR. S. NEARY: They are spending too much time playing cheap politics - MR. WARREN: No confidence. MR. S.

NEARY: - with the offshore resources and with the development of the Lower C.l·1urchill and the fishery and all of the other things that matter in this Province. I know my time is up, Sir. I am sure there are other members who wish to ask a question on this heading. My hon. friend wants to ask a question and then I will get back again and I will have another go and I will talk some more about the strategy of the Premier and this government in the last year or so. !1R. CHAIRHAN (Butt) : The hon. the President of the Council. 2668

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1013 SD - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether we should answer. I am mindful when I hear the member speak more and more as days ·g6 on, and today is a patent example of it, of the the saying, llThose whom the Gods will destroy, they will first make mad"- ~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. W. MARSHALL: - because the hon. gentleman in the way he is raving on in this area, I sometimes wonder about the man's balance. Mr.

Speaker, to talJc: in this House about the government doing anything against Canadian unity- - this is the first point he made up, an insinuation that what the Premier done with his statements was contributing to the disunity of Canada and what have you. Let it be know that the psychology of the hon. gentleman, some of his followers must be - it has to be - it is the only justification of their stand on the ownership of the offshore in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: What stand? MR. W.

MARSHALL: Yes, what stand: The stand of the hon. gentleman opposite on the offshore which is to agree with the federal government, which is contrary to the interests of the people of Newfoundland, which denies the obvious fact that the people of Newfoundland have a right to ownership of t.'lese resources and the right to the benefit of these resources,but would rather give them to Uncle Ottawa and continue for the rest of the time to receive welfare benefits for the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. W.

MARSHALL: That is the stand of the hon. gentleman there opposite, it is a stand that has been articulated from time to time by them all. 2669

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1013 SD - 3 J!R• W. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman makes a great deal, Mr. Chairman, about the visit of the Premier to the State of New York to discuss the Anglo-Saxon route and insists that we are going back t o 1965. And this was the refrain taken up by the Daily News this morning 1 I noticed as well. Now, Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to assure this House, as the Premier has already assured this House, that . we will not be going back to the age of 1965, we will not be going back, Mr.

Chairman, to contracts of sixty years with fixed price, we will not be giving away the power of this Province for a period of sixty years without the right of recall to this Province. It is unfortunate, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. gentleman wishes to inject it from time to time because we have to get up and show in stark contrast what the policy of this government is.

In respect to the present possible proposals, the talks down in New York, the government of this Province is exhausting every possible alternative, is going to determine and do its upmost to see that the power generated within this Province is used for the maximum benefit of the people of this Province. It has.been consistent in its policies. There is an attempt by the hon. gentleman opposite, the member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary), to say there has been a change that now we are talking about exporting our power. The situation as far as this government is concerned, Mr.

Chairman, remains the same, that as far as power generated within these borders of this Province, that the first call on the power of this Province is going to be for the people of this Province to use in this Province both for consumption on the one hand and industrial 2670

April 24, 1980 Tape 1014 EC - 1 MR. W. MARSH.Al.L: development on the other hand,that priority is goinq to be given wherever PoSSible to the places where the power is generated. Now, you do not have to be any intellectual giant to understand that with power developments such as are possible within Labrador, with the possibility of recapturinq the power on the Opper Churchill, that riqht llQV at this point in time while we could use a lot of it, we may not use all of it. So what does the hon. gentleman want to do with the residue? Does he want it not to be used at all or does he want it to be turned to account?

Well, Mr. Chaizman, we are going to turn it to account. and we are going to turn it to account on this basis 1 we are goinq to turn only that power, which is not needed at the present time by the people of Newfoundland: we are going to sell it, export it, outside. But we are going to export it at the best price procurable by the people of this Province to Newfoundlanders. We are not going to export it at the best price possible to the people of the Province of Quebec or for anywhere else, because this resource belo.llga to the people of this Province. Neither when we sell it, Mr.

Chairman, are we going to tie it up for generations, for thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy and eighty years at a time- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. w. MARSHALL: - so that future generations will not be able to get any benefit. If and when - and it is a big if - if and when we sell the power, we will sell the power, Mr. Chai:rman, on an arrangement vhe:reby it is only on the short-term. And when, and so soon, and i111111ediately as the people of Newfoundland need this power that has been sold for its development, then we will qet it. Now, that is a consistent stand and it is a consistent policy.

The hon. gentleman opposite tries to indicate that because the Power Authority of the State of New York is contributing to the feasibility study,SO per cent,that there must be some deal made. MR. J. CARl'ER: That is the way his mind works. MR. W. MABSHALI,.: Mr. Chairman, as the hon. gentleman says, that is the way his mind works, this is the way he thinks it was. 2671

April 24, 1980 Tape 1014 EC - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: But the Premier of this Province got up in Question Period yesterday and directly pointed out that not only was no deal made, ·but it was indicated to these people that when any study is br~ught into effect and is being paid for, it is being paid for, u far as · they are concerned, on spec, and, as far as we are concerned, with no obligation, absolutely no obligation "of the government of this Province to supply them with any power. Now, Mr. Chairman, this is the only type, I would suggest to you, of sensible, sane development that we can have.

We will not have a go back to 1965. We will not b.ave power being sold out for sixty years. As a matter of fact, it will not be sold out at all. The return will coDE to the people of this Province, not to the people of Quebec or the people of Ontario or the people of B.C. or what have you, but to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. MR. S. NEARY : Hear, hear! MR. W.

MARSHALL: We will not be jumping into a contract for the sake of construction purposes 1 for the Slllall, short-term coastruction jobs, beneficial as they will be, but we will be getting into power contracts, as I say, for the long-term benefits of this Province. And I suggest to the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary), in these matters of resource development when we are at a critical stage, Mr.

Chairman- and we are at a critical stage in the development of this Province at the present time - we have a situation where we have bountiful resources, but unfortunately, because of the stewardship of those who came before us, most of those have been given away to other people. But we are at our last chance in offshore. we are at our last chance, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the fisheries. And, Mr. Chairman, we are at our last chance with respect to hydro development. These are the three areas where Newfoundland has a chance for development not only today, but for the future.

And this qoverrunent remains collllli tted, and assures the people of the Province that all developments will be made for the benefit of them and not for others. 2672

April 24, 1980 Tape 1014 EC- 3 MR. W. ~HALL: I would sugqas .t to ~e hon.. gentlemen. oppoait:e, instead of a.ttei!!PtinCJ to IWte 'their Slllall, little politic:al triek& IU'ld to put ·~ sh<lda OA the attitude of the peol)le of this Province ,md tlle CJOVI!rnJIIeilt of this Province and bow NwfouncUanden stand, . .,. . . --·· part.it:ularly With respect t;o .offshote,~ for their own. particular politi.c:al ialmedi. .ato, short-'titrm qaina, I would sUCJ9est to theDi thAt they should 2673

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1015 AH -1 MR. MARSHALL: unite with this government, unite with the rest of the people of Newfoundland and come out !oursquare on such issues as who is to have the ownership of the offshore of this Province. Otherwise,Mr. Speaker, they are acting, and they get up and they protest from time to time, but it is a~ clear as the nose on your face they are acting diamet~ically opposite to the interest of the people of this P~ovince and every single day, Mr. Speaker, they get up and they make the type of - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR.

MARSHALL: Every day they get up and they make the type of speech that was made by the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to try to cloud the efforts that are being made in order to realize the resources of this Province. They are doing a grave and serious disservice to this Province, to the people of Newfoundland, to the people who are here now and the people who will come in generations yet to come. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : The hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I have come late to this debate but some of the things said by the hen.

House Leader prompt a couple of questions. I want to ask the House Leader - MR. WHITE: "He has gone now. MR. FLIGHT: He is leaving. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN: hen. member. MR. FLIGHT: MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: hen. member. MR. FLIGHT: Oh, oh! Order, please. I have difficulty hearing the So does the hen. House Leader now, Mr. Chairman. Throw the poisonous runt out of the House. Order, please! I have difficulty hearing the Since the House Leader is not here to hear the question and possibly stand up and answer, Mr. Chairman,I would still want to get it on record.

The House Leader indicated that he tried to give, enunciate the position of this Opposition re the offshore and he indicated that the Opposition agrees with the federal position. Well, my 2674

.. April 24,1980 Tape No. 1015 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: problem, Mr. Speaker, and the problem becoming more and more evident in this Province,is that we do not know at this point in time - and it is more important that the government would know I would • • I think than the Opposition -~xactly what Ottawa's position is. It is a fact of life,an~ a fact that is not very much talked about in this Province, that this administration, this government have not to this point in time met with the Prime Minister of Canada or the han.

Marc LaLonde,the Minister of Energy or any other spokesman for the federal government, the newly elected federal government. And, Mr. Speaker, it is worth noting that it is the same party but it is a different government , Mr. Speaker. The House Leader on the other side and the Premier have gone to great lengths to separate their performance from the performance of the former administration. I mean, I can stand up here, Mr.

Speaker, and say that anything done, any stupid things done, any policies put into effect that were not in the metter interest of Newfoundland by the previous administration, then this is a new administration so therefore they will not make the same mistakes. That is the preception that the members of this government want the people of Newfoundland to have.

So it does not make the same sense to say that until the position of a newly elected government in Ottawa is deterrnined 1 then by what right does the House Leader stand up and say that any group in Newfoundland, Opposition or otherwise, is supporting the position? Because the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to hear the han. House Leader address himself to this, that this Provine has not to this point in time, to ~his day, maae an approach to ottawa to determine exactly what Ottawa's position is in the offshore. And we are dealing with a new government. Now you can cut it anyway you like.

That is a fact. There may well be reasons, Mr. Speaker, there may well be reasons. The han. government might be afraid, might be worried that on going to Ottawa and sitting down, that the position that Ottawa is prepared at this point in time to offer this Province is indeed absolutely and totally acceptable maybe by the government and the people. But they are afraid of that because that is the last thing they WO'lld want to happen. They are having too much fun making a political issue, a 2675

April 24 ,1980 Tape No. 1015 AH-3 :-tR. FLIGHT : partisan political issue of the offshore in t:.'u.s Province . And they do not w-ant, tht;Y do not want a policy e.'lunciated from Ottawa that. would wash with t.l-te people of this P~ovince. And if that is not true,~en why is it tJ:!at the 1110st impor1:ar.t issue in this Province today, why is it that t!lree months after the federal election 1 af~~ a cabinet have bee.'l put in place, that the Premier and his !ront bench have not seen it necessary to determine what is today ' s posit ion with the federal government?

So let us not hear any more of ~s nonsense about groups, be it •Opposition or anybody else, agreeing or not agreeing with a federal position . To my knowledge there has been no federal position offered to this Province since the federal election ,or none asked. So, Mr. Speaker, before we decide who we are defending and what position ·~ are defending and what we are not defending ,we need to know the positi on; and the fact of t:.'le maeter is that this government does not know the position. I do not know if Ott awa has a position in place.

I do not know and unei1 the ?re:nier accepts that responsibility and determines exactly what is the position of the government then he should not be going around this Province alluding to a position that he does not know whether exists or not. And maybe that is the reason why he is 2676

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1016 DW - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: fluctuating so much himse1f. Mr. Speaker, in one speech the Premier very recently gave three acceptable possibilities to him for the control under which he would be prepared to accept the development of offshore. And the one that he preferred most of all was by agreement. Now when is the hon. minister going to stand up and tell us that he or his colleagues ~ave gone to Ottawa looking for an agreement or trying to determine what the position is? Mr. Speaker, the Anglo-saxon route. again the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is right.

The fact is that we talked about the Anglo-Saxon route in 1965 Preece-Ryder submitted a report on the feasibility of that route. And, Mr. Speaker, there were accusations at that time that it was a political ploy, and there is grounds for the same accusation today 1 that it is again a political ploy. I would like for the hon. Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) to stand up and tell me and tell this House how it is that he says in one breath that this government will not export, that their policy is to keep the power in this Province and utilize it in this Province 'when at the same time he is looking at the possibility of not only building a tunnel and bringing the power across the Straits, but then carrying it by cable ac~oss for the Port aux Basques area to the mainland. Now the cost of that kind of a study is itself enormous,and the cost,I would imagine would be phenomenal,if indeed the technology is in place.

Then how would he justify having put that transmission system in place? What is he proposing? That we would put the load, the 10,000 megawatts that can be developed in the Lower Churchill, Gull and Muskrat, that we have an agreement with Con-Ed in New York to sell that power for a year or two,then if suddenly the market was available in Newfoundland that we would pull off that transmission line, that underwater cable and possibly the billions of dollars that the transmission 2677

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1016 ow - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: cost would sit there? He sits and he wonders. And let me ask the minister something else:is Con­ Edison,having spe~t that kind of money to put that kind of a electrical ~ransportation system in place, is Con-Ed or any other cu~tomer in the States prepared to slg~ take and~ay contracts on a monthly basis? Are they prepare~ to jeopardize the power supply of New York city, the lights on Broadway as he talked about,on a situation with this Province where we will have the right to instant recall? I am afraid not, Mr. Speaker.

I am afraid that if that is the way we go that the people repre­ senting New York city or the Eastern Seaboard will not be any less prepared to take electricity or take power on a day to day basis then the people who did the negotiating for the Upper Churchill. So, Mr. Speaker, there are loop­ holes in what the minister is saying. It just does not jibe. If the power is going to be used in this Province 1 and he knows it is going to be used in this Province,then forget about talk- ing about an underwater cable to New York.

The minister loves to talk about what happened in the fifties and sixties re: the Upper Churchill development.! would like to hear his explanation of the $300 million that his administration,starting in 1973 spent, have already spent on the Hydro development in Labrador! $300 million for which this Province is not one penny better off today! Not one penny! wasted, $300 million! And that money was spent when his administration knew that there was no means available to take that power out of Labrador.

We spent $300 million on the development of the Hydro power in Labrador, not knowing where that power was going to go or how it would go out of Labrador. Well, talk about that $300 million in the same conte%t he talks about the Upper Churchill. And, Mr. Speaker, there is only one solution for the trans­ portation of power out of Labrador and that is the one the minister referred to and that is to negotiate with Quebec Hydro,or with whoever it is,for the right to wheel the power 2678

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1016 DW - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT: that is developed on the Muskrat or the Gull out over the facility that is now in place and owned by Quebec ·Hydro, wheel it out on a call-back basis so that there ·is no need of a thoroughfare down through Quebec, and negotiat~ an agreement where we would have the right, by rental or any agreement, to wheel the power from the Gull and Muskrat down to the markets South.

And then as that power became needed in this Province, we could call it back because if we called every megawatt back, the hydro lines would still have to be in place to carry the Churchill Falls production for the next sixty-five years anyway. Thank•·you, Mr. Chair- man, I wanted to get on with those few comments. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am not sur- ~rised that the hen. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) replied in his usual - no, rattlesnake is not a right word - in his usual low level of debate. I am not surprised at that, Mr.

Chairman, because the technique that this hon. crowd have been using in the last year is 'Go on the attack, stay on the attack, play politics with the offshore, play politics with the development of the Lower Churchill, play politics with this, play 2679

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1017 EL - 1 MR. S. NEARY: politics with that.' Mr. Chairman, they have no more intention in the world of trying to settle this matter of the offshore, they have no more intention than the man in the moon. They do not want the cooperation of the Opposition, they do not want the cooperation of the people of this province. They think they have latched onto a great issue. Well, I can tell hon.members right now that their arguments and their low-level debate and their cheap political maneuvering is starting to wear thin in this province and the people are beginning to ask questions.

They are beginning to say, well,,who is governing this province, who is governing the Province? Why does the President of the Council (W. Marshall), why does the Premier go on television, come up in the House of Assembly and attack the Opposition? Why? Whyr~ecause that is politically expedient to do: You can get a little short-term gain out of it. But, it is beginning~ · 'he people are beginning to realize what is happeni~g. The ~eople ar~ beginning to say, look, we elected the Tories to govern, Why are they not governing? Why are they not developing the Lower Churchill?

Why have they not, why have they not made a submission to Ottawa regarding the offshore develop­ ment- offshore ownership. or management? Why have they not made a proposal to Ottawa? AN. liON. MEMBER: Honest Tories (inaudible) . MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, they talk about honesty in government.

Well, there is more to being honest than being honest as far as the Public Treasury is concerned, as far as the Public Tendering Act is concerned, as far as this is concerned or that is concerned: You also have to be intallectually honest 1 and this hon. crowd are not being intellectually honest with the people of this province. It is not the Liberals, Mr. Chairman~ look 1I wish the crowd up over my shoulder· ~ere 2680

April 24,1980 Tape No. 1017 EL - 2 MR. S. NEARY: the message would filter · through.- 1t is not the Liberals who have to make the decision on the strateqy for getting control of the offshore, it is the people who are elected to govern. AN. HON. MEMBER: What about (inaudible): MR. S. NEARY: What about it ? What about it ? Mr. Chairman, they have not even tested it yet. They have not even prepared a case-to show you how sloppy and lazy and stupid they are- they have not even prepared their case yet. AN. HON. MEMBER:' (Inaudible) have not even asked yet. MR. S.

NEARY: I was told by the Premier of this province during the Easter recess, two weeks recess, he was going to spend all his time preparing a lette~he was going to lay it down in writing so he could present something in writing to the Prime Minister I of this country and he has not done it yet. They are not anxious 1 •they are not interested in getting this settled. There has got to be another election they think they can win yet on the offshore. That is the name of the game, Sir.

The name of the game is not get control, the name of the game is one-upmanship, politic~! maneuvering, cheap political politics, keep her going, keep her going until we get near the next election and then we might win the next election on the strength of the offshore ownership. Now, people are getting wise to that. People are getting wise to it and they know the game. They know the game. The hon. gentleman gets up and spends half his time - not half, ninety per cent of his time-ridiculing Mr. Smallwood. He and the member for St. John's North (J. Carter) are such a skinful1 of hate - AN . HON. MEMBER: Bis buddy.

MR. S. NEARY: His buddy, the fellow who wants to tear down the Onion Jack- 8ext week he is going to haul down the Union 2681 (

..J . April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1017 EL - 3 MR. S • NEARY : Jack and trample on it in this province.- such a skinfull of hate, that he has to squirt his venom, squirt his poison every opportunity he gets at Smallwood,~d I wish, I only wish _that I had that speech that little boy made over at Brother Rice last night about the development of the U~per Churchill. A little boy, I believe he was twelve or thirteen years of age, made a magnificant speech and won first prize for his speech in the High School Speak-bff on the development of the Upper Churchill.

Why even a ten year old student, a kindergarten student knows the difference 1 5ut the hon. gentleman does not. He is such a skin full of hate, he has to squirt his poison at Joey , every chance he gets and then run out of the House. But, Mr. Chairman, people are wise to that. People are saying, Hold on, now, just a minute, now. I mean, rather than get up and squirt your venom at Joey again 1 what have you done? Where is your record? What are you doing about the offshore? What about the hydro potential of the Lower Churchill? What about it? What have you done about it? MR. WHITE: Wasted a fortune AN HON.

MEMBER: Two holes in the ground! MR. S. NEARY: And if yo" want to talk about the past, what about that seven years of corruptio~ ~f Tory corruption in this province? The minister the President of the Council (W.Marshalll, managed to jump over seven years of Tory corruption and mismanagement and waste and extravagance to get ~ack at Joey. Nov, how can you blot out that seven years? So, we have no intention of baring our souls, Mr. Chairman. The people know, the people are getting wise to the game. The people know that this is a con job, this is a con game this government is playing.

They are playing a very dangerous game. They have made no effort at all in this world to settle the offshore question, none at all. They want to keep her 2682

April 2t, 19so Tape No. 1017 EL - 4 MR. S • NEARY:-· going. Then keep her going until the end of this ye~r end t:nen into next year. The next thing you know, we will be _getting near en election and then they will be out making this the big. issue. You know, one thing .about the Premier of this province. One thing about him; he has imitated and is imitating Joey to such a deqree that I sit here some days in amazement, in awe that the bon. gentleman is over there imitating Joey. He is doing exactly what Joey used to do. And he thinks he ean repeat term 29.

Be thinks that this offshore development will develop into a te%111 29 and he will go on then and sweep the Province. Mr. Cha-i%mlln ·, the fact of the mat.ter is that this crowd do not want this matter settled. ·That would be the worst thing that could happen to them to get this matte ·r settled. They would have nothing 2683

.'l.pr il 24 , 1980 Tape No. 1018 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: fit to talk about, they would have nothing to distract from the problems facing the ordinary people in this Province, namely high unemployment, the cost of living, vandalism and crime, the high cost of electricity, the high price of gasoline, the high cost of housing, no building lots available, but as long as they can drag this red herring in, this offshore thing, as long as they can keep dragging that in everything else has to be pushed to the background. And that is the kind of a game they are playing. And they are playing a very dangerous game indeed.

And then we heard the argument put forth by members on the opposite side, some of them lawyers, that there is no good in letting this matter go to the Supreme Court because the Supreme Court were appointed by the Government of Canada and the dice would be loaded against the Province MR. THOMS: That is shame. That is low. MR. NEARY: - that the cards would be stacked in favour of the Government of Canada. Now, Mr.

Chairman, let me ask the hon. gentleman this, even though these people were appointed by the Government of Canada, are they not some of the most outstanding and eminent lawyers in the Whole of Canada? .'l.re they not AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Chairman, I am told, during my research on this matter, that these gentlemen, a lot of them, were appointed as a result of recommendations from the Canadian Law Society. MR. THOMS: of them. MR. NEARY: John Diefenbaker, I suppose, appointed some Right on. Right on. Is Mr. Bora Laskin going to tip the scales in favour of Ottawa? Mr.

Chairman, that argument is so stupid that it should be exploded right from the beginning. The Canadian Law Society have recommended them, were asked and recommended most of these people. Unless 2684

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1018 GH-2 MR. NEARY: all lawyers in Canada are crooks, and q good many of them are, I would submit. MR. STIRLING: As he looks across the House. MR. NEARY: We have one gentleman in this House who thinks it is all right to accept benefits from the Bank of Montreal while you sit in the Cabinet. That is all right in Newfoundland, but over in Nova Scotia that kind of matter is being investigated by the RCMP, where you have a Tory minister being investigated for receiving benefits from a company doing business with the government while he is a minister in that government.

That is a violation of the Criminal Code in Nova Scotia and in eight other provinces, but in Newfoundland it is perfectly all right to do it. You can get up and say, "Oh, I would not do anything wrong. I would not do anything wrong. Hon. members know that I am an honest, decent man and I would not do anything wrong. All you have to do is look at my halo. I would not do anything wrong." Nobody accused the hon. gentleman of being dishonest, but it is illegal what he is doing, illegal. It is illegal in Nova Scotia, it is illegal in Newfoundland.

It is a violation of the Criminal Code, but the point here I am trying to make, Mr. Chairman, is that they are using arguments when it suits the occasion. ~ey drag up the former administration when it suits them, but they skip over seven years of Tory corruption. They are after doing it all. It is absolutely unbelievable! All in the name of sweetness and light in the House. The decorum of the House now is great, and when the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) starts praising up the Opposition,then I would say we are in serious trouble. I would say we are not doing our job.

There is something radically wrong with the Opposition when you get two gentlemen on opposite sides of the House, one praising the other and one scratching the other's back. I would say there is something wrong. Everything may be sweetness and light in the House, Mr. Chairman, everything may be sweetness and light, but nothing is being done. This is the most unproductive session of the House so far that we have ever had in our whole history. The government 2685

april 24, 1980 Tape No. 1018 GH-3 MR. NEA..~: are not being ~riticized for the things they shoul.d be criticized for, and everything is sweetness and light, bu~ it is the peopie who are getting shafted while eve-rything is sweetness and light. We were not elected an Opposition to waltz around the floor of the House of Assembly ~ith hon. gentlemen or kiss and hug them . We were sent in here to do a job. The hon. gentl eman !llight like his sweetness and light, but I guarantee you this, Mr.

Chairman, when the occasion arises, when I see a kind of a rattlesnake approach to things , a low level of debate and wrongdoing and intell ectua l dishonesty, then whether they report me or not I could not care less, I am going to do my job anyway, and I will keep repeating it over and over and over and ove .r again until they get sick and tired of it, and the message will eventually have filtered through the table over my bead out ~o the public.

We want to find out from the Pre.aU.er of t.his Province, for instance - he shoul.d be in his seat today, should be in his seat, because he is not goi .ng to make any contributl.on to Canadian unJ.ty. !ie '-<ill des=oy Canada rathe .r than unify 2686

April 24, 1980 Tape 1019 EC - 1 MR. S. NEARY: it- but we want to find out what he is going to do about the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) and the Auditor General's ·Report. My time is up now 1 but I am sure some of JJrf colleagues would like to deal with that matter, because that is not a dead issue by -any means' somethinq that is going to come up if-i get another chance to get on JJrf feet in the next ten minutes, I am going to zero in on that particul~ matter. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : The hon. the member for St. John's North. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Bear, hear! MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Ch.airlun, if the press were not here, I venture to suggest that the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary), not only would he not be on his feet several times today, he would not be on his feet at all. This is the month of April, and I believe this is the month that Birks have their sale. I must go out and get thirty pieces of silver. And I was going to distribute them more or less evenly on the other side, but after hearing the hon. gentleman speak, I think I will dump them all in his lap 1 every one of them. MR. s. NEARY: So you are all ready to haul down the Union Jaclc.. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh 1 oh! MR.

J. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I have never heard such a pile of treachery in my whole life as has been - MR. L. THOMS: wnen you have thirty pieces of silver, talk to the member for Baie Verte - wni te Bay (Mr. T. Rideout) • MR. J. CARTER: The -.ber for Baie Verte - White :aay at least exercised his judgement, something the bon. gentlemen are obviously not doing. Not only do I suggest thirty pieces of silver, but I would like to suqgest a few lengths of rope as well. so they could use them properly on themselves. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. J. CARl'ER: Now, Mr.

Chairman, I do not blame anyone for being a Liberal; that is a matter between yourself and your conscience. A person can be a Liberal, I suppose. Even in Newfoundland a person can be 2687

April 24 1 1980 Tape 1019 EC - 2 MR. J. CARTER: a Liberal, but I do blame very much anyone for votinq Liberal under the present circumstances 1 because the leader of the fedeTal party came down here and said clearly on television and clearly "in p!Wlic that Newfoundland did not have exclusive riqht either til ' manaqemant or control or ownership of the offshore· oir: AN HON. MEMBER: He cUd not! He did not! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! AN liON. MEMBER: He said the opposite. HR. J. CARTER: And I am qlad that there is - SOME HON. MEMBERS : on, oh! HR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chai:rman. HR.

CHAimiAN (Baird): On a point of order 1 the hon. the President of the Council. HR. 1f. MARSHALL: On a point of order. The hon. qentleman is makinq a speech - MR. S. NEARY: Is that what it was? MR. W. MARSHALL: - a very good speech and I wish to hear him without interruption as a member of the House. lie is entitled to be heard without interruption, Mr. Chai:rJUn. MR. T. LUSH: HR. CIIAIBMAN: for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: House Leader had to say. To that point of order 1 Mr. Chairman.

To the point of order 1 the hon. the melliler We certainly appreciate what the hon. the we on this side of the ~ouse certainly did not know the member was gi vinq a speech, but if that is what he is doinq 1 we will certainly sit back and listen. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order 1 Beauchesne, No. 299: "Relevancy is not easy to define. In borderline cases the Member should be given the benefit of the doubt." I would sugqest that the member stick to the subhead. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Chairman, I am very glad that at least one of the members on the opposite side who is in the Chamber at the moment 2688

April 24, 1980 Tape 1019 EC - 3 MR. J. CARTER: is a lawyer, because it is to the . lawyers that I think the Opposition should turn, to the lawyers on their ow.n side. I .am not suggesting that they necessarily believe everything that is said by the lawyers on this side, but at least they shoUld turn to the lawyers on their side and ask them for same legal advice. Now, I would like to suggest u analogy, and I think it is a valid analogy. I am quite serious about this. SOME HOIIl'. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (B~

d) I MR. J. CARTER I Oil, oh! Order, plea&e! Mr. Chaiman, I do not mind interruptions , I welcome them. It gives one a cllance to put one's tlloughts in better order. But the point I wish to make is a valid analogy. Let us assume that there is an estate to be divided between two sons, two children, and one of them says, 'Look, I do not want any of this, I am prepared to sign away my rights.

I will go to a notazy public or to a lawyer or to some judge and I will sign away my rigllts to this property.' New, automatically, tllat gives the ether son or tile other child the residual rigllts to wllatever is to be inllerited. New, Prime Minister Clark was prepared to say publicly that he was prepared to give away or to renounce any rights that the federal government might have.

New, it is an open question as to what rights the federal government may !lave and the provincial government may have, but there is no question if one of those partners disavows, gives up, signs away all llis possible rights, that all the rights that are remaining fall to the other person. You do not have to be a lawyer to see that, surely. And I tbink that tbis is an analcqcus situation. And I think it is - well, I de net mind the Opposition painting themselves into a corner; perhaps that is the way we would like to see them behave.

I mean, perhaps that is our job, to see tllat they do paint themselves into a corner. If they want to commit suicide, even 2689

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1020 SD - 1 MR. J. CARTER: without a rope or even if their names are not Judas, then that is fair enouc;h, I suppose. But I can not understanci. I 'llould like whoever c;ets up next on the other side to try and justify what I call the JOOSt extraordinary political acro­ batics that I have ever seen. And I am only surprised ~at only one has crossed this House.

A great many of the gentlemen on the other side are fine !Den, thinking men, sensible men and I am sure that if the Opposition persists in its attitude we will see a great exodus from the other side, perhaps not to this side but certainly to an independent position. I can not see that the Opposition will remain united on this issue: I think it is absurd. I would be very anxious, quite seriously, to hear any one or all men get up and justify the official position that they are taking. I do not mind the member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neartl, he just gets up and gives insult and abuse. SOME HON. MEMBERS: oh, oh! MR. J.

CARTER: The official .Trudeau position, I would like to see you justify it that we do not have COI!Plete ownership . - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. J. CARTER: - and that there may be some doubt to this and that the only way to resolve it is to go to court. I am suggest­ ing there is another much easier way . All he has to do - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. J. CARTER: But he is in some doubt. We may have to go to court about this. But all he has to do is to disavow any rights that the federal government may have, all these residual rights - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 2690

April 24, 1980 Tape No, 1020 MB - 2 MR. J. CARTER: All right, one of you get up and · explain it. Thank you. MR. CIAIRMAN: The hon. member for Terra Nova. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear; MR. T. LUSH: . Mr. Chairmzm, it is cert.linly ·a.n oddity as was pointed out by ~ friend and colleague, the member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary), to hear that the Premier is in Halifax at this I!Cment either speaking to or about to speak to unity. I would certainly like to hear what the Premier will be saying. I think I can speculate as to what he might be saying, but it is rather strange for the Premier to be there speaking about unity.

As a matter of fact, I would much prefer that the Premier stop talking all together and start doing something. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. T. LUSH: He has been talking now going on a year. Talk, talk, talk. Talking about offshore oil. AN HON. MEMBER: Talking and talking. MR. T. LUSH: Talking about this and that, but doing absolutely nothing and the people of this Province are getting fed up with it. AN HON. MEMBER: What about the unemployment rate? MR. T. LUSH: That is what I wanted to hear. That is what I would like for the Premier to be talking about.

That is what he should be talking about, the unemployment rate, 220,000 jobs need to be in this Province in the next twenty year$, Would the member for stephenville (Mr. Stagg) like to hear about unemployment? 220,000 jobs needed in this Province in the next 20 years - MR. HODDER: He has enough in his own district on unemployment and doing nothing about it. 2691

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1020 MB - 3 MR. T. LUSH: - for the young people that are unemployed, 220,000 jobs. We need to create - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HODDER: Six thousand in the Bay St. George area. MR. T. LUSH: Ten thousand jobs a year, that is what we need in the next twenty years to reduce the unemployment rate in this Province to ~ respectable figure of about 4 or 5 per cent. That is what we need to do. How close are we getting to that?

Two hundred twenty thousand to be created over the next 20 years, and in order to catch up from where we are now, we have to create 10,000 a year to get to a re­ spectable level or to reach a respectable level of unemployment, or em­ ployment whichever way we want to look at it. That is .what the Premier should be talking about. That is what the Premier should be talking about, talking about what he is doing in that respect. And let me tell you, putting a corridor through Quebec and exporting the power through New York is not going to create these 220,000 jobs, that is for sure.

It is not going to create these 220,000 jobs. Now, Mr. Chairman, again it sickens one, it sickens one to hear members on the other side make political hay out of this offshore oil. The unmitigated twaddle that comes out of people! It is absolutely astounding to hear these people. Let us talk about the position, the position outlined by the Premier in this House a couple of weeks ago in talking 2692

April 24, 1980, Tape 1021, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: about ownership. Now let us settle the question once and f~r all. Every Liberal on this side believes in Newfoundland's ownership to the offshore oil. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Every Liberal on ~his side of the House. Do we differ? Do we differ from anybody on the other side? Every Liberal in the Province of Newfoundland agrees that Newfoundland claims the ownership to its offshore oil resources, that we own it. We believe it! We believe it!

We believe it as well, but we are not out trying to make political hay out of it because we know there are some problems associated with ownership as does the Premier. MR. HODDER: the other side. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: And as does every member on Oh, oh! And if you want to get his speech, I can tell you what he said. The hon. the Premier said, 'We can resolve this ownership through one of three steps'. Wha~ were they? Because I will tell hon. members, they probably did not read it.

That is the speech that we got prior to the Premier's delivery, a mistake was made, and he gave three steps~ One was an agreement in both parts,in this hon. House and in the federal - an agreement, legislation. Secondly, it was by an agreement with the provincial government and the federal government as was entered into with the Maritime Provinces. All right? Number three was this rather strange one with the extension of boundaries as was done somehwere. MR. NEARY: In Bermuda. 2693

April 24, i980, Tape 1021, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: In Bermuda somewhere. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.stood up that day and said we agreed with this but we questioned the legality of some of the points. Step number one: We did not know whether you could resolve the ownersh~p through an agreement in both parliaments, we just asked the question. Nobody answered it. MR. HODDER~ And they have never answered it. MR. LUSH: If that can be done we will go along with it. If that is constitutionally proper and right we will do it. But what did the Premier say about it all?

What did the Premier say about these three steps? Which one did he say was the better one? MR. NEARY: MR. LUSH: agreement, number two. MR. FLIGHT: negotiated agreement. MR. LUSH: The agreement was the one. MR. FLIGHT: MR. LUSH: He did not. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, the Yes, number two, the Number two, the agreement. Shared jurisdiction. He said he was _ willing to sit down with the Prime Minister of Canada and negotiate an agreement. But what was he doing again the next day?

Off talking about, to make it a political issue again, 'We believe in Newfoundland's right to the offshore oil', the ownership because that is a political issue, it is an emotional thing, but not talking about the problems associated with it, not talking about these problems at all. Not talking about that, just a cover-up again to try to make political hay out of it. And there is nobody on this side who disputes Newfoundland's claim to its offshore 2694 "'

April 24, 1980, Tape 1021, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. FLIGHT: want us to negotiate for you? MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : minerals, nobody. Nobody! Oh, oh! You are the Government. Do you Order, please~ It is quite difficult to hear members from the Chair. I would ask all members to refrain from interferring. MR. LUSH: . So, Mr. Chairman, I hope that I have laid bare the facts of this situation - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Right on. MR. LUSH: - to expose the Premier and the government for what they are, trying to make political hay out of something on which we all agree.

The Liberal Party has not been doing that, we have not been doing it. I must say, if we had a spokesman on Mirtes and Energy the people of the Province would have known our position. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right! Right! MR. LUSH: I expect that will be taken care of shortly, and ~he people of this Province will know our position because we have to fight fire with fire. We cannot sit back here and allow hon. members to paint us in a corner as being unpatriotic Newfoundlanders, people who are willing to give away the resources of this Province. What nonsense! What trash, Mr. Chairman, what trashl Do, Mr.

Chairman, we agree with the Premier . that we think too that the best resolution to this claim to the ownership of offshore oil and gas can be settled best, the resolution, through an agreement? We believe that is the best way, like the Premier. I do not know if he was speaking for the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) then. Was he speaking for him: SOME HON. MEMBERS : No, I do not think so. 2695

.>.pril 24 , !.990 Tape No . 1022 !3-l ).!R. LUSH: One 3-SSumes that th~ Premier is talking fo r his governme:~ t . That is what he said. But what effort has he made to set down with the Prime ~linister and talk about the agreement? to/hat does he think , tha t the Prime .:liniste r. has to come and see him? What does he think, that- the !?rime 1·tinister of Canada should come and make an appointment tQ see him? He proba J.::.ly does. MR . HODDER: Knowing him he does. HR. LUSH: He probably believes that all o£ the Premiers of Canada should come here and meet with him on this issue . Well, ttr.

Spe .aker , r \<IOuld say it is time for the Premier of this Province to get toqether with the Prime Minister of Canada and find out what deal we can negotiate . !-lR . !'LIGHT: Tell us the position. MR . LUSt: of the H' •use wane to know - MR. FLIGHT: .!IN HON . ~IBER: !1R. LUSH : That is the pain~. l'lba~ is the position? !f you ·~t to know, and if the hon. members Tell us the position . (Inaudible ) I ruppose . If hon . members in this House of Assembly want to know where the Liberals stand - .:-JR . !'LIGHT: t:hat position . !'!R . LUSH : MR. FLIGHT: 1-lR. LUSH : MR . C!U\..IRMA.~ (BA.IRD) : MR. FLIGHT: MR.

CHAIRMAN: silence . MR. LUSH: (Inaudible) position. You do not know :1r. Chairman, ! am crying t:o ma;;:e a poinr­ You must negotiate. - to clu .e up my speech . order, please! You are not aware what Ottawa 's position is . Order, please! The member has the riqht to be heard in I am c::omt:emplat:ing a qrea ·t closing sen~ence, Mr. Speaker . :.:ow that I have cleared up the position once and for all where 2596

April 24, 1980 '!'ape No. 1022 IB-2 MR. LUSH: Liberals stand, let me put this to han. members - I wish the Premier were here.

If the Premier wants to know where the Liberal Party of this Province stand~on this issue, if he wants other people in the Province to know where we stand on this issue,let him start the negotiations with the Prime Minister of canada, and if we find out that these negotiations result in an agreement that is not satisfactory to the people of this Province, if we find out that these negotiations do not give maximum benefits to the people of this Province,then I tell you all Newfoundland will know where this party is standing. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: So let him start the negotiations now.

Let us know what is going on 1and we are ready, Mr. Speaker, to tell the people of Canada and the people of Newfoundland where we stand. Thank you. SOME HON. MEl1BERS : Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: What does the House Leader have to say to that? What does the House Leader say to that? Stand up. MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD): The han. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, it is not much sense looking across the House, the ones on the other side really do not have that much to say in connection with this. Basically they do not know what their position is.

I thought they had a position when I heard the Premier of this Province come out of a meeting saying that ltr. Clark, the late Mr. Clark, had given us control and ownersh ip and jurisdiction and ~v erything else of offshore oil and gas until,lo and behold 1 out behind the Premier of this Province struts Mr. Clark saying, "No, no, 'Brian'. That is not what I meant at all. I did not say you could have control and ownership and jurisdiction and get your hands on it like that". And that was right in the middle of a federal election. And the President of the council (Mr. Marshall) and the member for St.

John's North (Mr. J. Carter) havethe audacity, the unmitigated gall 1 to stand in this House and to look across at the Opposition and say, "What is your position?". Get a position yourselves first. MR. NEARY: Right on! 11R. THOMS: Get a position yoursel ves fir s· .. - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2697

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1022 IB-3 MR. T!iO.'IS: • and then ask us what our position is. I know what: my position is as a Ne•.rfoumllander and as a Canadian, I know what it is. It: was a.mJ'~Y staeed by my friend from Tert:a Nova {Mr. Lush), amply stated . And I will repeat what he said. I can repeat what he said. I a~ee with him 100 per cent. You ·.rill hear from tbis a~ettlbe.r if we do not: get the maximum benefits of offshore oil and gas.

You will hear from this member - okay? - and if you wane the Liberal Party of tbis Province to get the maximum benefits £or Newfoundland for offshore oil and gas then have ehe intentional fortit ude to resign, ca ll an election - to!R. NEARY: Right on! SOME RON. ME.'!BERS: !lear, hear! MR. TEOMS: - then let us come back . MR. NEARY: We will govern . MR. THOMS: We will govern and we •.rill get the maximum benefits, •.re will get the m. But: the mo= ,;illiest thing I have hea .rd, and I heard the schoolboy ~nes and Energy Mi.niseer {l<!.r. 3arry ) in this Province - t1R. NEARY: The schoolboy debator. MR .

THOMS: - the schoolboy debator on, of all things, radio 2698

April 24, 1980 Tape 1023 EC - 1 MR. L. THOMS : telling us, saying to us, you kno~, 'Go to Ottawa, get an agreement with the federa.l government on offshore oil and ga.s.' But on June 18th 1in ca.se you have forgotten, you won. MR. S. NEARY: Right on. SOME HON ~ MEMBERS: Hear, hea.r! MR. L. THOMS : You won. You know, I ·agree it is very ctifficult sometimes to realize since the Premier of this Province and this administration hAve been elected on June 18th, there has been nothing done, not one single, solita.ry thing. And that is the problem with Newfoundland today.

It is lik~;~ I sa.id in the Bouse on Friday, that Newfoundland is burning wh:i.le the Premier of this Province, the administration of this Province, is fiddling. 'l'bat is the problelll. Mr. Chairma.n, to me it boggles the mind to have been told this afternoon tha.t the Prelllier of this Province is in Nova Scotia speaking on Canadian unity. The next thing we will know, the President of the Council (Mr. w. Marshall) will be going across Canada speaking on Canadian unity. The member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) will be going across spealdng on Canadian imity. MR. s.

NEARY: He is going to haul down the Union Jack. We will have the Fleur-de- ~ys up next week. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Chairma.n, I would not ask those two St. John's men to come to Grand Bank to talk about Newfoundland unity, let alone Canadian unity. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, the paper this morning says , 1 All is sweetness and light in the House of Assembly. ' And the President of the Council, the first time he gets to his feet this afternoon, shoots out the poison and a venom, squirts it out in this House. And again, the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) does the same thing. And again, those two gentlemen are on their feet saying to me , that I am not a Newfoundlander, whi~~ is a lot of rubbish. MR. S. NEAllY: Are you a corner boy or what? MR. L. THOMS: We did not have corners in Lamaline or Garnish. 2699

April 24, 1980 Tape 1023 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY 1 Or Gambo. MR. L. THOMS: Or Gad:lo, or Port au Bras or Reck Harbour. We did not have any corners • I will not apoloqize for any position that I might have on oil and gas. And as I said before, though, oil and gas scares the daylights out of me. It scares me to think what Newfoundland can become if there is oil and gas out there. It scares me that we could become another Calgary. We could have the highest divorce rate, the highest suicide rate and the highest alcohol rate in Canada. That scares 1118. Crime is going to come to St.

John's with its doubling or tripling of our population. That scares me. I do not want to stop oil and gas from coming ashore in Newfoundland. It can give our Newfoundland people an awful lot of things they have been without. It can give the people of Terrenceville and Bay L'Argent and Harbour Mille and Grand Le Pierre and English Hazbour East, it can give them the road that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. c. Brett) and the member for their district refused to meet them on this morning - or yesterday morning, whenever it was. It can give the Burin Peninsula its hospital.

It can keep the students in Lawn, in Lawn, a problem that the Minister of Education (Ms L. Verge), even though she has been hiding her head in the sand before the Estimates Committees and coppingout on every question that we have asked , MR. S. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS: She is not feeling well this evening. We will get her tonight. Oh, oh! It is a funny thing 2700

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1024 GH-1 MR. THOMS: about Education, but the buck stops nowhere in Education. Nowhere does the buck stop. I suggested to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) that we did not need a Department of Education at all. We should just merge it with the Department of Finance, because according ----- - --- to the present minister, all the authority she has, all the authority her department has, is to sign cheques. That is all, to sign cheques. MR. NEARY: A crisis up in Labrador West completely ignored. MR.

THOMS: There are crises on the West Coast, there are crises on the South Coast, there are crises all over Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: She cannot take it now, she is going to leave. She is not feeling well today. MR. THOMS: And the minister has no authority to do anything about it, none whatsoever. Maybe some of these crises will not occur if we can get $15 billion from Hibernia, and I hope the people of Newfoundland get all the good things that the people of Newfoundland deserve. MR. FLIGHT: What about hospitals? MR. THOMS: Salt Pond would get its hospital.

The land is there now, the land is there now, and there is a great big sign, there is a great big sign there now, too, from the Tory promise of 1975. There has been a change. AN HON. MEMBER: How long do you have? MR. THOMS: I still have about a minute, I think. The only difference between the sign that was erected in 1975 when the Tory administration ~at you have disowned, the one that you disowned made the promise to build the hospital in Salt PondJ the only difference is in red paint there is a great big 'April Fool' marked across it.

Well, I think that has been true of all Tory administrations, including this administration. It is one great big April Fool. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Eaird) The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I come back into the debate again. It. has been rather spirited this afternoon, people accused of squirting venom and hatred and all this type of thing, I would just like to - 2701

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1024 GH-2 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) Order please! Maybe before the Leader. of the House continues, I would like to mention that it being five o'clock the Speaker ·will come in to announce the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER:- (Simms) Order, please! I can now inform the House that I have received notice of two matters for debate at 5:30 when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House.· Notice given by the hon. member for Lapoile arising out of a question asked the hon. President of the Council and the subject matter:Argentia-Massachusetts roll-on, roll-off ferry service.

The second matter for debate: Notice given by the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) arising out of a question asked the hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) and the subject matter:the bridge to Ship's Island from Greenspond. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: As I was saying before the Speaker came in, this debate this afternoon was motivated, really, in the first instance by the hon. member for Lapoile and his statements - MR. NEARY: leadership over here. MR. MARSHALL: Right on!

We are showing a little - with respect - the hen. member for Lapoile just cannot take that story in The Daily News. Of all places for it to come to in The Daily News this morning, that story, I think, really got to him about sweetness and light. He does not like sweetness and light in the Legislature. You know, he short of depicts myself a~d the member from the Strait of Belle Isle, the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Roberts), as singing and dancing around the - MR. NEARY: Waltzing around. MR. MARSHALL: Waltzing around the Chamber.

I think that the hon. member for the Straits would agree with me that is a very unlikely event but, indeed, it is a very humourous one. MR. NEARY: Kissing cousins. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, so, you know, the debate was motivated, really, by the hon. member for Lapoile, and he gets up and he talks about the development situatiornof this Province. 2702

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1024 GH-3 NR. MARSHALL: Obviously the hon. gentleman there opposite got quite exercised because of their vulnerability in this after I made a few comments, so I 2703

April 24, 1980 Tape No. 1025 DW - 1 MR. W. M