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April 28, 1994

35th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

PUBLIC SECTOR EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION DISCLOSURE ACT, 1993 / LOI DE 1993 SUR LA DIVULGATION DE LA RÉTRIBUTION DES CADRES DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

TOBACCO PRODUCTS

PUBLIC SECTOR EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION DISCLOSURE ACT, 1993 / LOI DE 1993 SUR LA DIVULGATION DE LA RÉTRIBUTION DES CADRES DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

TOBACCO PRODUCTS

VISITORS

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY PRESS GALLERY

TAOIST T'AI CHI

ACCESS TO CHILDREN IN CUSTODY

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

FORD MOTOR CO OF CANADA

MOTORCYCLE SAFETY

NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY EMPLOYEES

CARMEN LEMCKE

CAVAN ECOGARDEN

DAY OF MOURNING

METROPOLITAN TORONTO SCHOOL BOARDS

ROLE OF MINISTERS WITHOUT PORTFOLIO

ASSISTED HOUSING

FRENCH-LANGUAGE COLLEGE

ASSISTED HOUSING

TENDERING PROCESS

GAMBLING

FAMILY SUPPORT PAYMENTS

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC RESTRICTIONS

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

EMERGENCY SERVICES

FAMILY SUPPORT PAYMENTS

NORTHERN HEALTH SERVICES

VITAL SERVICES FOR TENANTS

SPORT AND RECREATION FUNDING

WRITTEN QUESTIONS

COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTIONS

CANCER TREATMENT

JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN

CASINO GAMBLING

REFUGEES

SEXUAL ORIENTATION

FIREARMS SAFETY

SEXUAL ORIENTATION

LAP DANCING

EDUCATION FINANCING

SALE OF AMMUNITION

SEXUAL ORIENTATION

WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD

FIREARMS SAFETY

MOTORCYCLES

TRANSPORTATION FOR THE DISABLED

FLOOD PREVENTION

CHILDREN'S LAW REFORM AMENDMENT ACT, 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT LA LOI PORTANT RÉFORME DU DROIT DE L'ENFANCE

EMPLOYER HEALTH TAX AMENDMENT ACT, 1993 / LOI DE 1993 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'IMPÔT PRÉLEVÉ SUR LES EMPLOYEURS RELATIF AUX SERVICES DE SANTÉ

COURTS OF JUSTICE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1993 / LOI DE 1993 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI CONCERNE LES TRIBUNAUX JUDICIAIRES

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The House met at 1004.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): Madam Speaker, in the absence of Mr Stockwell, I move second reading of Bill 114.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): Do we have unanimous consent that the member for Carleton move this motion? Agreed.

PUBLIC SECTOR EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION DISCLOSURE ACT, 1993 / LOI DE 1993 SUR LA DIVULGATION DE LA RÉTRIBUTION DES CADRES DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

Mr Sterling, on behalf of Mr Stockwell, moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 114,

An Act to provide for the Disclosure of Executive Compensation in the Public Sector / Projet de loi 114, Loi prévoyant la divulgation de la rétribution des cadres dans le secteur public.

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): It's unfortunate that my colleague the member for Etobicoke West, Mr Stockwell, was not able to be here with us this morning due to an emergency which arose only a short time ago.

Mr Stockwell's bill outlines a method of requiring those in the public service at the executive level to have their salaries disclosed in a public fashion. I believe this was in response to the requirement by this government that the top executives in private industry be required to have their salaries disclosed in a public manner.

When that bill was brought forward, I believe that many in this Legislature, on all sides of the House, felt it was proper that those people who are in a trusted private category of leading large corporations should indeed have their salaries made public. We found it strangely odd on this side of the House that while we were requiring people in the private sector to disclose their actual salaries, we were not requiring that of public servants.

At the present time one can ask a member of the government to disclose salaries of various and different people within the government. Unfortunately, what has transpired is that you get back from the government a salary range, and those salary ranges can be quite wide.

For instance, not too long ago I had asked for the salary of an employee in a minister's office. I was informed that the salary range was from $41,000 to $61,000. Well, quite frankly, that would make up a range of some 35% of the total salary and is unsatisfactory. In other words, there is a great difference between an executive assistant to a minister being paid $41,000 or an executive assistant being paid $61,000.

As we go up the scale in terms of deputy ministers, going up to the level of deputy minister and senior bureaucrat, those ranges would even be much wider than the ones that I was exhibiting there. In other words, you might have a range from $100,000 to $135,000.

It's our feeling that everyone in the public service earning over a base rate of perhaps $45,000 or $50,000 should have their salary made public. This was the position my party took during recent hearings on freedom of information and privacy in the Legislative Assembly committee during the winter recess, when we were looking over the municipal freedom of information and privacy bill. We believe, quite frankly, that the taxpayer has the right to know what the compensation is for everyone over that category.

It's odd that this was the position of the former Progressive Conservative government prior to 1985. It was only when the Liberal government took over that they started to hide information about what they were paying their particular civil servants. Many of the members of the Legislature here don't recall the change that took place over 1985 when government changed. What in fact had happened at that time was that the new Liberal government coming in in June or July 1985 hired many people out of the press gallery and was quite embarrassed about the very large salaries it was paying off to many of the former press gallery who were there prior to 1985.

In order to hide what those individuals were being paid by ministers, they changed the rules. They said, "We will not tell you how much we're paying to buy off the press," in terms of what happened in 1985. If you recall, back in 1985 and 1986 and 1987 it was a fairly astute political thing for the Liberals to do, because during that period of time the provincial government did enjoy quite favourable press from the press gallery, and quite frankly they just bought them off.

Part of the way they bought them off was to hide what in fact they were paying out as compensation in order to buy off these members of the press gallery. But the people in the press gallery knew what in fact the Liberal government of the day was doing in buying them off. So many of the people who replaced the people who did get into the executive assistant levels of the then Liberal government were pining to go from that place above you, Madam Speaker, down underneath where all the executive assistants sat, because they were being paid quite handsomely.

The Liberals changed the rules so that the public didn't have access to what public servants were being paid. As a result, not only were the Liberal hacks of the day being protected but so was everybody else being protected in terms of the public service as to what they were being paid.

Our position, as I said before, reverts back to where we were prior to 1985. We believe that everybody over a certain level in the public service, not only for the provincial public service but for each municipality and each school board and each agency, their salaries should be revealed to the public as well. I don't understand why the taxpayer shouldn't know that.

It's unfortunate that this has to be redone, that we have to go back. This is only the first step, by Mr Stockwell, the member for Etobicoke West, and that is to take the very, very high levels of compensation given to the executive people who are involved in government and reveal their salaries.

That's the thrust of this bill. It's a matter, I guess, of accountability. It's a matter of freedom of information, allowing the public taxpayers to know in fact what they're paying the high-ranked civil servants of our province.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): Thank you to the member for Carleton for speaking on behalf of Mr Stockwell. Now each party will have 15 minutes in rotation to debate.

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): On a point of order, Madam Speaker: I'm relatively new in the Legislature, but it seems to me that I was told or I learned somewhere that it was the government's responsibility to maintain a quorum.

The Acting Speaker: You're asking for a quorum?

Mr Crozier: I would have thought that they would want to do that this morning with this very important business before the House.

The Acting Speaker: Would the clerk determine if a quorum is present, please.

Senior Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Journals (Mr Alex McFedries): A quorum is not present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

Senior Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Journals: A quorum is now present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker: Now we may proceed with the debate. I will recognize the member for Essex South -- Kent.

Mr Randy R. Hope (Chatham-Kent): One more time: Chatham-Kent.

The Acting Speaker: Chatham-Kent. Please proceed.

Mr Hope: There we go. I appreciate the opportunity to participate in the debate this morning and to comment on the bill as brought forward by Mr Stockwell, the member for Etobicoke West, who is not here. It's unfortunate that situations did prevail, but I will make my comments. I was looking for the theatrics in the 10 minutes that the member for Etobicoke West would have presented to us this morning to liven up our morning, but unfortunately he didn't present us with that graceful gift that he has of theatrics.

Before I begin, I must reiterate right at the beginning of this that I will be voting in favour of this bill, but I do have some major concerns with it.

First of all, as I read the lengthy bill that is presented before us, which is one page, it says, "This act applies despite the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act." I ask myself, where does this stop? Does it go on unendingly, without even taking in individuals' freedom of information that they are allowed to reveal and the privacy that is beholden upon people?

We're talking about paycheques of people who collect salaries paid by tax dollars. What if in the information the member opposite who has presented this bill finds out that in the top five is not what he's looking for? Does he come back, introduce another bill and say, "No, no, exactly what I want is the top 10 instead of the top five"? Maybe he discovered that a couple of the salaries that he was looking for are missing. So what does he do? He might step back in the House and introduce another bill, which says, "I need the top 20," until he finds what he's searching for.

It raises a number of concerns to me and it frustrates me that I don't know where the member opposite is coming from. Let's say the information he's looking for in the top five is not there. Does he then step back into this House and repeatedly introduce bills until he finds what he's looking for in the salaries of individuals, maybe names of individuals he's looking for?

I'd just ask the member, and unfortunately I can't, what is his purpose behind this bill. Is the purpose to reveal the salaries that are paid to public servants by the general public, the taxpayers of this province, or is it specifically to deal with only five top people? Is he specifically looking for a name of an individual or the salary range that might be there? I have to ask that serious question, and hopefully the member for Carleton might have the answers for me for the member for Etobicoke West. But I think that's very important.

I did have the opportunity to participate in the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Statute Law Amendment Act, which was debated during the winter sessions. One of the concerns that I would like to see is, why aren't the agencies, the municipal governments, all people, covered by this piece of legislation?

If we're talking about revealing what the actual people who are paid by tax dollars collect, then let's put it all on the table to make sure that everybody has the right to know about salaries that are being paid. That is very important if we're to talk about the need of people to understand what salary ranges are.

As I looked at the bill, I guess I was hoping to hear that in the 10-minute presentation the member for Etobicoke West would have made, which makes it very difficult for us to understand where he's coming from with it. I understand where the member for Carleton is coming from. Yes, he was on the committee. Yes, he presented his feelings as an individual, a member of the Conservative government, of what he would like to see, why it was removed in the past during the Liberals. Why did the Liberals change it and cover that up? I'm not saying there was any wrongdoing; I'm saying they had legitimate reasons for why they felt that salaries should not be revealed.

But it would sure be nice for me, as a new member in this Legislature, to understand that, because I myself look at this bill and it says, "the five highest." What if it's the highest 10 the member wants? What if it's the highest 20 the member wants, until he finds exactly what information he's looking for so he can carry on with his theatrics in this House and present some corruption case that is there?

But I also ask maybe what --

Interjection.

Mr Hope: No, I ain't going to ask that one.

Mr Bob Huget (Sarnia): Let me. I'll ask it.

Mr Hope: You'll ask it? Okay. I really would like to know -- in principle, I understand what he's trying to do: revealing to the public. I say it has to be broader information dealing with agencies that have been established by the governments. A lot of the general public don't know of the salaries that are being paid; municipal governments -- what exactly their salaries are being paid. People know what our salaries are in this Legislature and I believe the general public, the taxpayers, ought to know what all salaries are.

I think in coming with a piece of legislation that only deals with specific five -- I wonder, where does it stop? Does it keep being reintroduced, like 10, 20, 30? What's the end result? "This act applies despite the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act," which raises a number of serious concerns around how much actual information is there.

I know other members in here wish to comment. I do wish to say to the member for Carleton, I hope you have all the theatrics the member for Etobicoke West has so you can explain exactly what he's trying to get at with this bill.

Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): I just want to take the next two or three minutes to respond to not only the member for Chatham-Kent but especially my colleague from Carleton. I find it very -- not distressing, because this is, after all, Thursday morning; we'll all be going home this afternoon. But having to listen to the member for Carleton talking about the Liberal Party buying off people -- imagine.

Interjection: I cannot believe he said that.

Mr Grandmaître: Yes. I can't believe this. After all, they had the best teachers in the world, especially Bill Davis. Bill Davis invented buying off people in this province. Just to keep your mouth shut, Bill Davis would create a commission and pay you fabulous dollars, but keep your mouth shut. That was the motto of Bill Davis. Today, this member has the gall to stand in his place and to preach to this House how good the Conservatives were and how bad the Liberals were. I find this incredible. Saying that the Liberals invented buying off people -- it's a good thing I had a good breakfast because, I'm telling you, my stomach is weak right now; very, very weak.

I will be supporting this, because it's a friend of mine; it comes from Mr Stockwell. That's the only reason I'll be supporting this bill and not because of the comments of my colleague from Carleton.

In response to my colleague from Chatham-Kent, at the municipal level, I would like to tell you that all executive members of the municipalities are hired by bylaw and the salary or salaries are mentioned. So at least at the municipal level, where I have more experience than at the provincial level, we're much more open.

But again, I want to remind you that when the Conservatives, or a Conservative, tells us all about buying off people, I can't argue. They have the mould; they invented the mould and they will continue to do it. I just want to remind you, don't be fooled by what the member for Carleton told you.

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I welcome this opportunity to stand in support of my colleague the member for Etobicoke West -- his Bill 114. The bill is to provide disclosure on compensation for the public sector. If this bill passes, it would provide for the disclosure of information relating to the compensation received by the most highly paid officials in government. In the ministries, it would also include the directors and officials in crown corporations and members of the ministers' staff.

I congratulate the member for Etobicoke West for bringing this important matter to our attention because my constituents in Simcoe East tell me they believe many highly paid officials in government jobs are ripping off the system when they themselves are trying to survive on a smaller paycheque and on fixed incomes. I want to make it clear that I have dealt with many highly paid officials in government ministries, directors of and officials in crown corporation, and members of ministry staff who work very hard. They put in long hours, and I believe they are worth every cent they're paid.

But I also know there is always a small group of people who take advantage of the abuse in government that they work for because they believe they're working behind closed doors of a large bureaucracy where no one will take the time to actually find out what they are accomplishing.

Ontario taxpayers deserve and are demanding government officials who are effective and accountable to disclose. Taxpayers understand better than most the need for government to provide services in an efficient, responsible and financially sound fashion.

Another area of concern of my constituents, and a costly concern at that, is that this government has awarded a host of party-affiliated people with high-paying jobs in numerous offices of the government. So I'd like to take you back to the first throne speech of November 20, 1990. Bob Rae, who campaigned on promises of openness and accountability, said the following:

"My government's first challenge is to earn the trust and respect of the people. My government's integrity will be measured by the way this government is run....Our task is to guard against institutional arrogance and the abuse of power...."

I would suggest that Bob Rae got it wrong. His first challenge, his constant challenge, has been to make excuses for the institutionalized bungling of his government and to rationalize why abuse of trust and waste of taxpayers' money has become the dominant characteristic of his administration.

I believe we can take a step in the right direction by restoring faith in the public and government by supporting this legislation and providing for disclosure of information relating to the compensation received by the most highly paid officials in government. We in this Legislature are obligated under law to disclose our financial affairs. As far as I'm concerned, that's the way it should be. But I also believe this policy should be extended to non-elected officials who are appointed to highly paid government jobs with little or no say on the part of the people of Ontario.

I also believe this legislation should be expanded to include public disclosure of all expenses of highly paid officials in government ministries, directors of and officials in crown corporations, and members of a minister's staff who are provided with credit cards for use while conducting government business. It is suspiciously like pulling teeth to get this credit card information. Whenever I put a question on the order paper, in fact, there have been times when I have never received this information under the former Liberal or the current NDP governments. What's the big secret? What are they hiding?

Could it perhaps be that not all of the credit card billings are related to government business?

We at one time had total disclosure over all salaries of $30,000. Any employee of the government who made over $30,000 was in the book. We saw it in the public accounts book; we get that every year, and every employee's salary over $30,000 was disclosed in that book. It was the Liberals who did away with that.

I would urge the members to support this resolution from my colleague the member for Etobicoke West on this important issue, because I believe it will lead to making Ontario the province of opportunity again. Since 1985, Ontario has been living in a tax-and-spend nightmare designed by the NDP and implemented by the Liberals. Do you remember when that wedding was on, 1985 to 1987? David Peterson, Lyn McLeod and Bob Rae have worked together to make Ontario the most heavily taxed jurisdiction with the most highly paid government officials in North America.

Yes, I remember. I remember in 1985 when I looked at the members of that press gallery and when I looked at the increase in parliamentary assistants' wages. At that time the top parliamentary assistant wage was $42,000. The new Liberal-NDP administration increased that to $62,000 so they could hire half that press gallery, and that's exactly what they did.

In 1990, since the NDP has come to power --

Laughter.

Mr McLean: Well, you can laugh about it all you like, but I'll tell you, the people out there who are paying the taxes are not finding this very funny.

You have now increased that $62,000 to $84,000. I understand the new House leader hired a new staff at over $70,000 with no experience at all. Is that the way you waste taxpayers' money?

Why are we not disclosing what these people are making? I say today, the way salaries have changed, perhaps anybody over $50,000 should be disclosed so they would know what they're getting.

This resolution that's before us today, Bill 114, is only a start. He wants the salaries of the five highest-paid officials in each government ministry and their names; the salaries of the five highest-paid directors of each corporation and their names; the salaries of the five highest-paid officials in each crown corporation and their names; and the salaries of the five highest-paid members of political staff in each ministry, including the Office of the Premier, and their names.

This bill does not go far enough. I think for anybody who is receiving salary from the taxpayers of this province, there's nothing wrong with having their salary disclosed. We don't mind having our salary and our expenses disclosed. So why is it wrong for the civil service to have their salaries disclosed?

I remember $30,000 used to be the cutoff salary. Anybody over $30,000 was disclosed. Today that should be $50,000. Anybody over $50,000, their salary should be disclosed.

Then we go on and we look in the public accounts book and it gives us these travelling expenses. That's in the book for different ministries. They have their yearly travel expenses; their names are here. So there we are, and we have other payments, for materials and supplies in each ministry. That's all printed in the book. What's wrong with having the salaries of the senior civil servants printed in the book? I see nothing wrong with that.

I remember when top salary for a deputy minister was $85,000.

Mr Hope: What year was that?

Mr McLean: That was 1985. Today we have a salary for a deputy minister from $103,000 to $150,000. There's almost $50,000 in there that -- I presume most of them are at $150,000. I think Robin Sears is about $145,000. I don't know where he is, whether he's a deputy minister now or not. I think he's maybe in Tokyo.

We owe it to the taxpayers to come clean. What's the matter with telling them what's really happening in government? What's the matter with the civil servants telling the people, when they're driving a government car, what the cost of that is? Do we know? We don't know. But the people are asking that question, and I'll tell you, the people have a right to know.

Since this government came to power, as I said before, we have been the most heavily taxed jurisdiction with the most highly paid government officials in North America. Do you believe that those salaries should be disclosed? I do, and the people in my riding do, and I don't know of anybody who doesn't.

We owe it to Ontario's taxpayers to support this private member's bill. I think it's a step in the right direction, because it does bring accountability. That's what we want to see, but obviously the other two parties don't.

Mr Pat Hayes (Essex-Kent): When you look at this private bill and you listen to the speakers from the opposite side of the floor here, you would think the people who have worked for them over the years were all volunteers.

The thing is, paragraph 1(1)4 in this bill: "The salaries of the five highest paid members of political staff in each ministry, including the Office of the Premier, and their names."

I find that rather interesting when they want to just have this bill deal with the ministries, deal with government employees. I think the members, if they're so concerned, should be disclosing the salaries of all their political staff that they have, and even some of the ones we don't really know about. I think that should be brought forward.

The two opposition parties: When you sit in here from day to day, they remind me of the little kid who makes a mess and then comes to mommy and says, "Will you clean that up for me?" We're having a hard time cleaning up the messes they have created over the years, but we will continue to do so. This government has been more open and up front in disclosing people's salaries, and we've had more public meetings and brought more things out in public than any previous government has ever done in this province.

We support the bill from the member for Etobicoke West in principle, and of course I'll be voting for it.

I have some familiarity with this issue, having had the pleasure of sitting on the Legislative Assembly committee this last intersession and looking at the municipal freedom and protection of privacy act. But after looking at the act, I wonder why the member hasn't broadened the scope of his bill. Why aren't you looking at the public broader sector as well?

Bill 114 covers ministries, crown corporations and ministers' offices. It doesn't cover any government agencies, colleges, universities or transfer partners. I think if we are looking at the question of executive compensation, we have to look at the subject as it applies right across the government. When I speak about right across the government, I'm also including the opposition.

Ten years ago everyone who earned more than $40,000 had their salaries published in the annual report of the public accounts committee. Of course the Liberals changed that. For what reason, I don't know. Some people might call it a coverup, I don't know. Some people might've said, "We don't want to make the Tories look too bad on some of their golden handshakes that they've had over the years."

Interjections.

Mr Hayes: They've come through with the range, and this is what I'm saying. There was a system in place, and yet the Liberals come back and say, "Well, we got to take that out and we got to make a range because we don't want anybody to have that information," but it's interesting they come here today and they want all that disclosure.

But if you worked in the public service 30 years ago, your salary was on the public record. With the size of the public service growing, it was becoming quite cumbersome to publish everyone's salary.

Of course when we talk about the privacy of the 100,000 government employees, and on top of that the 900,000 broader public sector workers, these things all have to be taken into consideration.

When you look at the question around publication of salary figures, do we want the top five published? Do we want the salaries of everyone over a certain benchmark published? Do we want them available but not necessarily published? These are just some of the questions.

The issue of compensation disclosure was discussed at length in the committee. I can remember my friend from Bruce talking about problems with people getting salary figures from employees in the municipal sector, and I know my friend from Dufferin-Peel was talking about setting a cutoff below which salaries would not be published. So they're talking a little different tune here today.

I also know that the member from Dufferin-Peel, for example, isn't here today, but he would probably point out that his private member's bill demands that the top five salaries paid to executives of unions should be made public.

I'd like to kind of clear that up, which I did in the committee or I attempted to. Those salaries for top union executives are public. They are set by the union membership at a convention, and they are spelled out in the union's constitution. Those numbers are readily available to the members of the union who elect those executives.

The biggest problem I have with this bill is the fact that again the members opposite are offering a piecemeal solution to a larger problem. This is one of the things that this government has faced. We said, "Let's get rid of all these ad hoc programs from previous governments and piecemeal solutions and throwing dollars at things." That's why this government is in the process of doing long-term planning, long-term programs, for the benefit of the people of this province.

If we pass this one as it stands, can we expect another bill dealing with school boards, another bill dealing with universities and colleges and another bill on municipalities? These members just want to keep coming back with their little piecemeal legislation.

This bill does need amending. I will support it because I agree with the notion of executive compensation disclosure, but I feel this issue would be better served as part of the review of the provincial Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act and the Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act.

Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and I'm glad to see the members on the other side finally flipping in the right direction for a change.

Mr Crozier: I am always surprised each day I come into the Legislature. We're talking about compensation today, and you know what they always tell you: Advice is worth what you pay for it. The member for Downsview, when I took what I thought was my right in the Legislature, came over and had the gall to chastise me for what I did, when I called the point of order. Fortunately, as I said, I didn't pay him anything for the advice, and it's just exactly what the advice was worth.

I'm also surprised that the members for Carleton and Simcoe East would talk about the Liberals and the NDP and their taxing policies. If my history is correct, Mike Harris, the tax fighter, and some of his cohorts, voted for the second-highest tax grab in provincial history, $1.8 billion. So I am surprised that they would criticize anybody else and that they would even consider criticizing the press as being able to be bought off. I believe in the freedom of the press and I don't think that would ever happen in a lifetime.

Notwithstanding all of that, I am also in support of this bill. I only wish Mr Stockwell were here this morning to hear me say it, because there isn't very much I agree with him on.

Mr Bill Murdoch (Grey-Owen Sound): Who was that leader again? What was her name?

Mr Crozier: That was Lyn McLeod, my leader, Lyn McLeod.

I support any initiative for disclosures on public spending. I frankly can't imagine any party or any government that wouldn't want to be forthright and honest and disclose all manner of public spending. I agree with my friend, the honourable member Mr Hayes, that perhaps this bill should even go further than it does. I'm sure Mr Stockwell would welcome any initiative on the government's part to expand the bill. I'm sure we would all appreciate that. It goes to the heart of the public's right to know. The public has a right to know how their hard-earned tax dollars are spent.

Some of the members of the Conservative caucus, the one from Simcoe East, would probably have us go back. They want to go back. I don't want to go back to the day I made $160 a month. I don't want to go back to those days.

Mr Murdoch: You were overpaid.

Mr Crozier: I know I was overpaid. I've always said that if I were paid what I thought I was worth, they couldn't afford me, and if they paid me what I was really worth, I couldn't live on it. So there's nothing wrong with a range that's in between.

I'm most interested in subsection 1(1), paragraph 5:

"Details of the benefits received by the persons referred to in paragraphs 1 to 4, including special purpose loans, loan guarantees, an arrangement for the payment of $100,000 or more on dismissal or retirement and generally any arrangement that adds substantially to compensation."

That is where the real meat of this is, because that's where the deals were made. Back in the Conservative days, they might not have paid them much up front, but the deals are where you make the money. I want those disclosed as well. It's the taxpayers' right to know what everyone makes in public service and I have no objection to it.

I hope this bill, when it passes -- and I'm being optimistic that it will pass and there's no doubt in my mind that it should -- will bring under scrutiny particularly these special arrangements that too often have been made in the past and may have cost the government hundreds of thousands of dollars. I feel the spirit of this bill is one that will be informative and will result in a more accountable government.

Mr Murdoch: Certainly I am pleased to be able to be here today and speak on this bill. It is unfortunate that Chris isn't here, but I know he would have liked to be here.

It's amazing what we hear from the Liberals. That was quite a speech about not knowing different things, and that the payment up front is more important sometimes than what they pay the people. I guess we could talk about Ellis-Don and Patti Starr and people like that. The Liberals have a lot to come good for, but we certainly do appreciate their support on this bill.

Mr Crozier: I may change my mind. Be careful what you say.

Mr Murdoch: He mentions that he may change his mind, so I won't go on any further. I'd hate to see you do that.

I also don't think Chris's bill goes far enough. I could agree with Mr Hayes across the floor.

Mr Grandmaître: Bring in amendments.

Mr Murdoch: As my good friend from Ottawa says, we may have to bring in an amendment. Maybe when I talk to Chris, we will do that.

He's talking about the five highest-paid. I think everyone's salary should be known. Our salaries are known. They seem to take great delight, when our expenses come out -- the media like to get into that and talk about all that. They love to pick on us as politicians. I don't see why the salaries of everyone who works for the province and everyone who works for the government shouldn't be exposed to the public, because they are public servants and they should be. I would have no problem in going further with this.

Mr Hayes: What do you pay your staff?

Mr Murdoch: The member over there asks me what I pay my staff. If you want to know, you're certainly welcome to come down to my office any day and we'll discuss that. We hear from our good friends across the floor. The union runs all their staff anyway and they pretty well have to pay them certain amounts; they don't have any choice. It's unfortunate.

Mr McLean: They're at the top of the scale too.

Mr Murdoch: As the member for Simcoe East says, they're at the top of the scale too. We know you're keeping your staff very happy because of the union. If it wasn't for the union in there, you guys would be out of luck, wouldn't you? You wouldn't know what to do then. Fortunately for you people, the union does look after you.

Mr George Mammoliti (Yorkview): Is that Mulroney on your tie?

Mr Murdoch: What was that, the member for Yorkview?

The Acting Speaker: Order. Would the member address his remarks to the Chair.

Mr Mammoliti: Is that Mulroney on your tie?

The Acting Speaker: Interjections are out of order.

Mr Murdoch: I think the member likes my tie. Unfortunately, he should be discussing this issue and not worrying about my tie. Sometimes they do have problems staying with the course of action. We'll just ignore that.

I wanted to explain that no one party has any title to this bill. We've all had our problems. It was mentioned by the Liberals that the Conservatives voted for a $1.8-billion raise of some sort, but that was over a decade ago. We've changed; there's no doubt. We have a lot of new members.

Mr Hope: That was then; this is now.

Interjections.

Mr Murdoch: I'm glad to see you caught on. Sometimes you wonder whether they're listening to us, and you have to bring things up to get their attention. I'm glad to see that my friends the Liberals are also awakening to the new dawn, the new era. Under my leader, Mike Harris, they will see a lot of new changes to tax laws and things like that. There will be fewer taxes in this country when Mike Harris takes over, there's no doubt about that.

I just want to bring my support to this bill and hope that the government side over there will also support us in this bill, and go on to the future and make sure that the salaries of the people who do work for the government are exposed.

Mr Jim Wiseman (Durham West): I'm pleased to respond to this. This side of the House has been open to reviewing what happens in terms of appointments. That's why we created the review process at the government agencies committee. The opposition parties, of course, have both dedicated themselves to saying that they will eliminate that, should they form the next government. In other words, they would put the appointments and the patronage processes behind closed doors so that the public cannot review them. We have striven to open that process to the public.

I will support this bill, because it's been very clear that we support the openness of government. In fact, the Minister of Finance, when he made his comments about the disclosure of executive salaries, made it very clear that we have to find a mechanism to do that with the public service.

That was reiterated when the Chair of Management Board came before the committee on the freedom of information act and said he would be happy to hear the committee's comments with respect to pursuing this opening up of the salary information, and went on to say that the proper forum for discussing that issue was in the committee where the Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act was being reviewed.

I had the privilege of sitting in on that committee while they were reviewing, and I have to say that it is a very complex issue. We heard from people from all over Ontario who brought forward literally hundreds of recommendations. Some wanted to tighten the system up so that information could not be acquired by the public -- I don't support that -- and some wanted to open it up to such an extent that personal privilege and personal privacy could be invaded. Of course, we have to find the balance between personal privacy and the right to know and at what point that would do harm.

In closing, we need to take a look at -- and I've mentioned this before in a similar debate -- the fact that there are broader public service agencies that need to be included, such as school boards, hospitals and all the agencies that are attached to the government or receive public funding.

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): I'm pleased to participate in today's debate, because I think it is really about the public confidence about those who serve the public in all walks of public life, whether they are elected, whether they are civil servants, whether they are bureaucrats, public employees. Actually, anyone who is receiving payment from the government has a responsibility to the taxpayers, whose dollars pay them, to be as accountable as they can be for the dollars they receive from the public.

Today we're dealing with a proposal on the disclosure of executive compensation in the public sector. This has been something I've been very vocal about and in fact have been a participant in, ensuring that there was openness and transparency. This dates back to my days when I was Chairman of Management Board in 1985 in the government, when we brought in the new rules which opened for the very first time the amounts on salary ranges and so forth so that the public could scrutinize and see clearly how much civil servants were being paid.

It seems to me that from time to time it is good to review that and to see whether there is more that can be done. With the advent of the freedom of information and protection of personal privacy legislation, we have, with the experience of that legislation, seen a number of test cases which have given us pause to reconsider so that we can ensure that our dedication to openness and accountability and transparency is there and is there all the time.

It's my view that since this kind of debate is always about the balance between the right of the public to know and the right of the individual to personal privacy, we have to, on the basis of our principles, make those decisions. I'd like to state clearly in the House that my views and my principles are that the tilt should always be to the right of the public to know.

Having said that, I do believe it is possible in the framing of legislation to make sure we are protective of individual privacy. I think that is possible in the way we can have disclosure of compensation and benefits, and I don't think the two are at all incompatible.

The legislation that is before us today is supportable in principle, although I would like to express some concern about some of the individual provisions, because there is a cynicism and a suggestion that perhaps what is occurring is inappropriate. I want to state very clearly that from my experience in government, we frequently had difficulty in attracting people from the private sector to come and work in government simply because we could not compensate them in the same way as they had been compensated in the private sector.

I don't for a minute want this debate to get into: Do we pay our senior civil servants too much? Are there too many perks and privileges? That's not what this debate should be about; this debate should be about the public's right to know. As we have seen moves for greater openness and transparency in the private sector, certainly we have to make sure that the rules for the private sector are no more onerous than the rules for the public sector. In fact, my view is always that the responsibility of the public sector is even greater.

The rules for the private sector have been to protect and ensure openness and transparency for shareholders and corporations. In the United States, for example, our neighbour to the south and our most significant trading partner, the rules for disclosure of income, salary, perks, stock options and that sort of thing for leaders of public sector corporations probably are far ahead of anything we see here in Ontario. It's one of the reasons I was very supportive of the move to protect shareholders by giving them that kind of information as well.

In that same vein, it seems to me that the taxpayers, who are the shareholders of the corporation of the province of Ontario, if you want to use the corporate analogy, have a right to know and a right to have confidence that public servants, whether they are, as I say, elected or appointed or in the employ of any of the public sector and broader public sector agencies, are being properly and appropriately and reasonably compensated and treated.

I believe that, in the name of accountability and openness, we have to be on our toes all the time. One of the reasons we have to be on our toes and be prepared to review what is existing today is because public cynicism unfortunately is at an all-time high, frankly with a lot of justification. I'm distressed and concerned. I know people don't like anyone in public life; they particularly don't like politicians. That does pain me, because as we want to encourage good people, ordinary people in the province, to run for public office and stand in public life, we have to do everything we can to see that this is a profession which requires and deserves the respect of the public.

This debate is important, and I'm pleased to have been able to participate.

The Acting Speaker: The time for debate on this bill has expired. A vote will take place at noon. Sorry. Two minutes to the member for Carleton to respond.

Mr Sterling: The member for Oriole, in winding up her speech, talked about public cynicism. I have to ask members of the Legislature, members of the public -- this member, when Chairman of Management Board, actually reversed a former regulation which required all salaries over $30,000 or $40,000, I'm not sure which, to be divulged.

Now she speaks in the Legislature in favour of undoing exactly what she did when she had the power in the cabinet of Ontario. Then she asks why people are cynical about politicians. I think she's made a tremendous exhibition of why people are in fact cynical about politicians: "When we were in power, we took away your right to know, and now, when we're in opposition, we want to give you the right to know."

They took it away. The Liberals took it away. That's a matter of fact.

Mrs Caplan: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: That is not true. That is a misrepresentation of the facts, and I would ask the member to withdraw.

The Acting Speaker: That is not a point of order. The member may continue.

Mrs Caplan: That is not true, Madam Speaker.

The Acting Speaker: The member for Carleton.

Mr Sterling: I stand by my remarks. If any one of you wants to read the history on freedom of information and privacy, if anybody wants to talk about the disclosure of public servants' salaries, that is the history, that is the fact. The Liberals took away the right of the public to know what public servants in this province are making, the exact amount; they took it away. That is the fact, that is the matter.

Now they're playing in opposition the other side of --

Mrs Caplan: I'm not going to sit here and let him say things that are absolutely not true.

The Acting Speaker: Order. The member for Carleton has the floor. Please continue.

Mr Sterling: You know, the truth hurts and I'm glad members of this Legislature are now wanting to revert to a policy which the former Progressive Conservative Party had back in 1984.

Many members have said this bill is too narrow, and I wanted to say on behalf of Mr Stockwell, I'm certain that he would be quite willing to look at amendments which would widen the scope of this bill.

We have had some speakers say this is a proper matter for freedom of information and privacy reviews, but the member must admit that we had a review of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act at the provincial level some two or three years ago and there hasn't been any legislation brought forward.

I don't think a private member can be chastised for bringing forward this matter on the public agenda. It's important and I thank all members for their support. We look forward to this bill being called for third reading.

The Acting Speaker: Thank you to the member for Carleton. The time for ballot item number 51 has expired and a vote will take place at noon.

TOBACCO PRODUCTS

Mr O'Connor moved private member's notice of motion number 40:

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): Mr O'Connor now has 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Larry O'Connor (Durham-York): As all members know, the province has been moving forward on smoking as a very serious issue. In fact, a discussion paper on the Tobacco Control Act was released in January 1993. As that progressed, we heard from over 240 people by way of written presentations, and 34 oral presentations were made to a committee made up of staff from the Ministry of Health as we went through that process.

Over the past few years there has been a lot of action taken on this issue. The chief medical officer of health for the province declared in 1991 in his annual report that tobacco was public enemy number one, and there has been a lot going on. There have been the public ad campaigns that we've all seen, and we all applaud that the ministry has been doing quite well. The annual report by the chief medical officer of health for the province of Ontario, Opportunities for Health, again pointed out tobacco use and the problems related to it.

Through the strategy that is unfolding around tobacco products, we've seen, for example, certain areas that have been targeted through legislation, and, as members of the Legislature, we have been able to deal with that. The Ministry of Health has continued on a strategy for cancer. It's done that with Life to Gain, a document that talks about the cancer strategy for the province of Ontario.

There's a public awareness campaign that's out there. I think in every member's riding back home they've been approached by people in their community who want to talk about the issues and want to talk about it. There's a booklet put out by the Ministry of Health that helps parents talk to their children who are addicted to tobacco.

Yet I think, when I started looking at this issue and anticipating the fast passage through this House -- it seems to be delayed at this point, which is very frustrating for me -- there is still a problem. When I look at the Globe and Mail, they put a headline on it that I think was really quite useful. On April 14 this year, in one of their articles, it says, "Haze Still Hangs Over Cigarette Contents," and that's what I think was missing.

We all know -- we were told as we went through the committee hearing process -- that the list of tobacco product ingredients is tremendously long. What was presented to the committee was a list that was obtained from Health and Welfare Canada that was from the US, but it's not a complete list and it doesn't really identify it very well. What I think is missing is the fact that as we go out there in the province and as legislators want to deal with this very serious issues, the ingredient list that we need to know about isn't there. It's just not talked about.

If we take a look, for example, in the Globe, as they've tried to follow up with this, the tobacco industry divulges the list: 13 substances. Well, it's not 13 substances; we know it's more than 13 substances. That's the Canadian list, and the US list is 599. There are so many different things that are put into it, things that are put into the tobacco product to keep it moist so that it'll keep its freshness.

Some of those substances are cancer-causing, and as public health units deal with this -- this morning I spoke to the managers of the public health units. They're celebrating their 25th anniversary. They gave me this lovely little mug here. Actually, last year was their 25th anniversary. So here they are, they're going into 26 years.

I talked a little bit about this resolution, and there's a tremendous amount of support for it, because as they go out in the community and support us as members in talking about this, they can't see why the industry won't come clean, why it won't supply a list of all the ingredients.

You know, it's very disturbing, and I'm sure that my colleagues are going to share some of their thoughts around this. I'm sure that as they take a look at this serious issue -- you know, 13,000 Ontarians die every year in the province of Ontario from tobacco-related illnesses. That's a heck of a lot. That works out to about 100, Mr Speaker, in your riding, 100 in any member of the Legislature's riding, 100 in my riding.

I was on one of the local cable shows that we all do from time to time and I had a call from a good doctor. The good doctor said, "Larry, you know, that tobacco legislation is terrific. That's really good stuff. In fact, I would have liked to come down and made a presentation at committee." I explained to him, "We had four weeks of public hearings, we went around the province with it, we know there's a lot of support for it, and I appreciate that support that you're giving me."

He said, "You know, Larry, what I'd like to talk about is the real human issues: cancer, the cancer that affects people's lives." It might be a father who's struck with cancer and you've got someone like -- my son is seven years old -- a parent trying to explain to his child that he's dying of cancer, this awful disease; or somebody else who might be having to explain what the process is, what is going to happen as he goes through this very difficult suffering, through chemotherapy. It's something that's really awkward for people.

I think that's where this good doctor wanted to explain this to the committee so that we could have a good round discussion about it and put a human face on it because that's what needs to take place.

I'm sure my colleagues are probably going to take a shot at some of the industry and maybe they deserve that. I think they do. The fact of the matter is, why don't they come up with the list? Why don't they come clean, explain exactly what are the products? "This is the process, this is what we use."

The industry in fact still hasn't even come to terms with the fact that smoking cigarettes can even cause cancer. I'm waiting for the day when I can go through -- and I've got a raft of clippings here, but I don't see a clipping in there that says, "The tobacco industry acknowledges that smoking tobacco products when used properly as directed will cause cancer." The fact of the matter is 80% of all lung cancer is the result of tobacco use. Why can't they come up with that product list? Why can't they just come forward and tell us exactly what's in it?

I know how terribly addicting it is. People say, "They wouldn't tamper with the nicotine levels, they wouldn't do that," yet that's the ingredient that addicts people, that's the ingredient that when our young people try it out for the first time is going to addict them. That's the element there. How many different chemicals are in there? How many different elements are in there? It's part of this problem.

That's why I think there's so much support for moving forward with this. We have to move forward with this. I look forward to the debate that's going to take place and I think we're going to see a terrific amount of support for it.

Let me tell you, when the federal government in Ottawa, the Liberal government, decided they were going to drop the sales taxes, it was like a knife that went through every committee member of social development that was dealing with the tobacco legislation. It was like a knife that cut right through us, the reason being that we heard from people how the prices have an effect. Here it was, the federal government was just helping out the Quebec party, and I felt that was just awful.

The fact of the matter is that a day later Mr Clinton and Mr Chrétien get on the phone to have a chat and they say: "We've got a serious problem here. We've got a problem over in Europe. Do you think we can agree to have some air strikes and deal with this problem?" I agree they've got to talk about that problem; it's something they have to do; it's something they've got to deal with. As international leaders, they have to talk about those things.

There are 40,000 Canadians who die every year, 400,000 Americans die every year from tobacco-related illnesses, yet the two leaders of the two countries can't get together and talk about it. I find it reprehensible that the two of them can't say, "Look, we've got a smuggling problem here, let's deal with that." But they didn't. I'm encouraged that maybe some day they're going to take a look at that and maybe they'll sit down and talk about tobacco as a problem, because I think it is a problem.

I want to support the federal government in their moves. In fact I'm on the list to go to Ottawa on May 10 to support them in their move towards plain packaging. We've got to talk about it, because we can affect people's lives. We can save some lives here.

Our legislation, Bill 119, is focused at young people. The part that was missing out of that, I think, was that list of all those harmful chemicals. We don't even know what they are. What I want to see happen here -- I'd be delighted if I see unanimous support.

I hope that maybe I can get unanimous support so that when I go to Ottawa on May 10 I can take that with me: the ingredients that come out when people are smoking tobacco -- we heard about ground glass being put in chewing tobacco -- those types of ingredients, that glass. If that's the case, I want the industry to come clean and tell us really what's in those products.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Any further debate?

Mr Charles Beer (York-Mackenzie): I'm pleased to rise and join in the debate on my colleague's motion that would in effect as a result ensure that chemicals released are going to be set out clearly on the packaging, and I think in terms of the principle of this resolution that we would be supportive of that.

In fact I think that the federal government, which is being asked to do this, has begun the process of determining what is the best way to ensure that the ingredients of cigarettes and the ingredients of the smoke, which as a non-scientist I have learned is really the critical thing -- that in fact we know what is there.

I understand that, if the federal government proceeds with what is being discussed at this point in time, over the course of the next couple of years what is being set out in our colleague the member for Durham-York's motion would come about. He has made reference to the hearings that are going on. Those will undoubtedly conclude, and I fully expect to see action on the part of the federal government.

I think it's important to underline in this debate, as has been said, the weight of evidence that we heard in the standing committee on the whole question of smoking, and particularly the issue of the health hazards. One of the difficult things with the whole question of smoking has been that while we have a tremendous amount of information on the harmful effects of smoking in terms of heart disease and lung cancer of various kinds, it almost seems in a way that the more information that is out there, we keep running into more people who don't want to believe it, who will simply say: "Look, that's all just kind of propaganda. It's not real."

We see that, for example, in the discussion more recently around the advertising and why it didn't appear to be working with young people and what is the appropriate way to get some of these messages across to younger people. If there was one thing we learned very clearly from the hearings of the standing committee on social development it was that if a young person is not addicted to smoking by the time he or she is about 19 or 20, it is much less likely at that point that they will smoke on a regular basis. So the focus then was, how do we ensure that doesn't happen?

We also saw very clearly during those hearings that a great deal of the marketing of cigarettes was aimed precisely at the younger group, 12, 13, 14, 15 years of age. I think it was a real shock as a parent. Probably just through good luck my own kids had not been all that interested in smoking. I suspect that they had experimented, but it had never become a big thing with them. I wasn't as aware of the kind of marketing that was going on to get young women and young men to smoke.

As we wrestle with this and how we get this message through so it's not simply seen as something where those of us who are older are trying to tell those who are younger the things that they should and shouldn't do, I think one of the vehicles we have is making sure at least that people have information and that an intelligent, informed person will act on that information.

Clearly, one of those elements then is, "Well, what is on the package?" If you pick up a cereal box or a can of soup and you go to the contents, you get a pretty full listing of what's there. Often, I suppose, a lot of us don't necessarily know what some of the things mean that are there, but we can go and find out more directly, "Okay, what harm might come if I were to eat or ingest that particular product?"

Here what is being looked at and as I understand what has been proposed in the United States is that there they want to list all of the elements that are in the smoke; that it's that combination in particular, once the cigarette or the cigar is lit; that it is at that point that real harm can be caused, not just simply what constitutes the cigarette or the cigar itself. In order to do that, I think, then, we need the kind of thing that is being put forward in the resolution and it's the sort of thing that I believe the federal government in Ottawa is now looking at in very specific and real terms.

I recognize those who've been upset with the federal government for lowering the price. I think nobody from the health point of view -- and it's been said many times that that is not helpful. There's no question that the lower the price, the more people will smoke. I do think, in terms of that specific issue, there were some particular problems around the smuggling and what was happening within the society that finally made the determination as to why the federal government did what it did.

That being done, I think, if anything, we have to redouble our efforts, both provincially and federally, around what we can do, what steps we can take to more greatly limit the use of tobacco products. One of those things is going to be through ensuring that we know precisely what is in the cigarette, what it is we're taking in. Then that can also be part of a broad range of educational programs that we can have, whether they are in schools or in terms of public advertising campaigns, again trying to break through that barrier where people simply refuse to look at facts.

I only wish that we could have had some of those people come and look at some of the slides and the material that we had around the diseased lung or heart or even, from the use of chewing tobacco, what that did to people's mouths. I think in some ways that's probably the most dramatic and effective way of showing what's wrong with smoking.

All that being said, we have a major problem. This is one step, I think, towards combating tobacco and smoking. I think over the course of the next two years both the federal and provincial governments will be able to act on this, and this will be of great assistance to us.

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe West): I am pleased to join for a few minutes in this debate concerning the resolution put forward by Mr O'Connor, the member for Durham-York. I want to say at the outset that I certainly support the principle of this legislation.

As Health critic for the Ontario PC Party, I just want to say for the record that it is important that consumers, and particularly those who consume tobacco products, are aware of the wide range of chemicals that are contained in Canadian cigarettes. As the parliamentary assistant, Mr O'Connor, pointed out in his remarks, the United States has recently moved on a similar front. I think that consumers, regardless of product in our society, must be made aware and given the opportunity to know what they are consuming.

So I certainly support this legislation in principle and note, as with all private members' resolutions and bills before this House, that it's a free vote within our caucus and, I believe, other caucuses.

I also want to just compliment Mr Charles Beer, the Liberal member for York-Mackenzie, who quite skilfully, I must say, steered the social development committee, as Chair of that committee, through the debate on Bill 119. I want to thank Charles on a personal note for his leadership there. He really is a very good Chairperson of a committee. We did have a number of conflicting and often controversial presentations before that committee dealing with Bill 119 and other pieces of legislation that have appeared before the social development committee, and Mr Beer does a very skilful job as Chair.

I do find this resolution put forward by the parliamentary assistant for the NDP somewhat ironic, though, because it was certainly the NDP government here in Ontario and the federal Liberal government that, I think, did more to encourage cigarette smoking in this country and in this province than any other governments in history, and that was by their actions in concert to lower the taxes on cigarettes and tobacco products.

Yes, there was a smuggling problem, but I would have thought that the NDP, because it spent a couple of weeks holding out on this issue, would have continued to hold out on the issue and not lower taxes, given that it has Bill 119 going through the House. Bill 119 is their Tobacco Control Act.

I want to set the record straight, with respect to my party, on Bill 119. The parliamentary assistant, Mr O'Connor, has accused us publicly of holding up this bill.

I want to remind the people of Ontario that that's just bunk, that the government controls the agenda of this place, that the government has a majority on all standing committees and all committees of this Legislature and certainly has such a commanding majority that neither the PCs by themselves nor the Liberals by themselves nor the Liberals and PCs together can do anything about the agenda in this House, given that the government controls it with its majority. Therefore, if they want 119 to go through, they should bring it back for further debate in this House so that it can proceed to a final vote.

When it did appear in the House a couple of weeks ago, two of my colleagues, Mr Runciman, the member for Leeds-Grenville, and Mr Jordan, the member for Lanark-Renfrew, quite correctly, I think, brought forward some concerns that we had not heard during the hearings at the social development committee. Those were concerns regarding job losses. Since that time, more people have come forward expressing to my party the job losses that may be incurred as a result of the passage of Bill 119, and particularly the regulatory authority contained in that bill regarding plain packaging. That's what the issue of jobs has centred around, the issue of plain packaging and the printing industry.

I want to read a letter that was sent to me, dated April 18, from David R. Esch. He's president of Rototone. He says: "I'm writing to inform you of the impact of the proposed legislation on plain packaging on my company, and to seek your support in defeating this legislation. I'm the president of Rototone Gravure in Mississauga. We employ 45 people and we estimate that about 50% of our work is for the cigarette industry.

"If this legislation is passed, most if not all of these people will lose their jobs. The 10 people employed by F.J. Murray, our machine shop, will also be unemployed and of course all of our suppliers will be affected."

That letter is the most recent one, and Rototone is located in Mississauga, Ontario, but during the debate in this House on Bill 119, as I said, my colleagues brought forward similar concerns from print shops in eastern Ontario that expressed that hundreds of jobs will be lost. What we've called for is a couple of things.

First is the concerns that were expressed by Mr Runciman and Mr Jordan with respect to their constituents and the job losses that are pending, if this particular

section of Bill 119 goes through, that the government respond to their concerns in writing. I've expressed that personally to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Health. The Minister of Health herself, Ruth Grier, has asked me what their concerns are and I've expressed those to her and asked her to put the government's response in writing, because I think it's only fair that Mr Runciman and Mr Jordan be able to take back to their constituents in writing exactly what the government's position is with respect to plain packaging.

Secondly, I think the jobs are a very important issue. I want to just quote from the Minister of Health's statement to this House last week, dated April 21, when she was announcing a new economic development study that had been conducted in the health care field. On page 3 of her announcement in this House she says: "A recent study found that physical and psychological stress associated with unemployment costs Canada $1 billion a year in extra health care costs. It's clear that our physical wellbeing depends on our economic and social wellbeing, and that's why job creation is a health issue as well as an economic development issue."

We've been a long time stressing to this government that health care must become one of the engines that drives the economic recovery, and rather than the punitive measures we've seen this government bring forward on the heads of health care professionals and hospitals and health institutions in this province, we would like to see the government change gears and look at health care as an economic development opportunity and an export opportunity and we'll continue our push in that regard.

But we finally did have the minister last week coming to the realization that health care is an important part of our economy. We'll have to see what the government does to live up to that quote I just read from the minister, but also we finally have a recognition of the importance of jobs. People like Fraser Mustard and other economists and scholars throughout North America and the world have consistently told legislators that jobs are a very important part of the health and wellbeing of any economy and its people.

In fact, the best thing that can be done right now in Ontario, in my opinion, as Health critic for my party, is that we put people back to work; that we allow businesses, in particular, to put people back to work. That's the best thing that the parliamentary assistant for Health can do, that's the best thing this government can do, for the health and wellbeing of the people of this province. There is lots of literature to support that this is the direction that health care must go in this province, and there has to be a better relationship between the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade and the Ministry of Health.

The other thing that was called for by my colleagues from eastern Ontario, during the debate on Bill 119, is a full public hearing in consultation with the federal government so that it not only includes the people of Ontario but the people of Canada with respect to the issue of plain packaging. Unfortunately, and in hindsight, I do say that we did not hear from the other side of the issue with respect to plain packaging during the hearings on Bill 119.

The government's position to date is that plain packaging and the regulatory authority contained therein in the bill were very much a part of the public hearings, but it really wasn't. It played a minor role in those hearings, and there was not a significant focus on the issue. Nor did we have witnesses from, for example, the printing industries come forward and tell us about the impending job losses should such a move be contemplated.

I think it's only fair, and I join with my colleagues in calling upon this government, to remove that clause from Bill 119 so the rest of the bill, which is pretty good legislation, can move forward and that we set it aside and ask the government to hold public hearings on plain packaging in concert with the federal government, because we want to hear from all concerned individuals and citizens in this province with respect to that issue before any government moves ahead with such a significant step.

We also need a better understanding of the studies that have been done on the effect of plain packaging, and particularly how plain packaging may or may not serve as a deterrent for young people to start smoking. That's the objective of Bill 119. My party supports the objective of Bill 119, which we are told is to stop young people from starting to smoke. I think all legislators support that. With respect to plain packaging, though, we need a fuller airing of the issues surrounding that important initiative.

Ms Jenny Carter (Peterborough): I rise to support very strongly the motion by my colleague the member for Durham-York.

I was present at several of the meetings held by the standing committee on social development to hear presentations on the proposed Tobacco Control Act. I knew already, of course, that tobacco is a health hazard, but the evidence, presented largely by doctors, pharmacists and educators, was overwhelming.

There has been denial, particularly by cigarette companies, that the mounting statistical evidence proves the deadly nature of addiction to tobacco, but the evidence is now in. It is grisly and it is overwhelming. There are 13,000 deaths per year in Ontario which result from the use of tobacco; that is, 100 deaths for every member of this House, as my colleague has just said.

That is the population of a small town such as Niagara-on-the-Lake. That is almost five times the number of people who die from traffic accidents, suicide and AIDS combined in this province. One person dies from tobacco every 40 minutes in Ontario. To a young person, these figures may seem very abstract, but I can think of a neighbour, a colleague, a fine Canadian writer and Family Court judge, known to me personally, who died too young from smoking.

Tobacco causes 80% of lung cancer, and lung cancer is usually fatal within two years of diagnosis. One third of deaths from heart disease are smoking-related; bronchitis and emphysema can make life miserable for years; and stroke, cancers of the mouth, throat, oesophagus and bladder are hardly mild afflictions and are linked to tobacco smoking.

These effects do not usually occur quickly. There's a gradual erosion of health over time. Ill health caused by tobacco use is a financial drain on our health service and a cause of lost workdays and economic loss.

The committee heard from a 12-year-old boy that in spite of regulations, he had been able to buy cigarettes in five of eight stores where he'd asked for them, including pharmacies.

We learned that the hazards of smoking are by no means confined to the person who smokes. Secondhand smoke causes cancer in non-smokers. Many people have found their place of work intolerable and dangerous to their health or have been unable to attend meetings or other events because of smoking by others.

Children and infants are particularly at risk. We were told that in northern Ontario, the problem is worse during the winter months because buildings and vehicles are closed up tight to keep out the cold. Asthma among children is on the rise and has reached alarming proportions. Mothers who smoke are liable to have low-birth-weight babies who are prone to health and developmental problems.

We heard that chewing tobacco, sold to youngsters in the States as being less addictive than smokes, can lead to oral cancer and other health problems.

We have to take all reasonable measures to discourage smoking. Tobacco is the only substance that kills when used exactly as directed. It is also said to be more addictive than heroin.

Our Tobacco Control Act is a good start and is aimed particularly at preventing children and teenagers from taking up the habit. Few people start to smoke after the age of 20.

We were making progress in the reduction of tobacco use in this province. Public education campaigns, the proposed raising of the legal age for tobacco purchase, banning of sales from pharmacies and vending machines, the increase in designated non-smoking areas and plain packaging will all help. But the unfortunate response by the federal government to increased tobacco smuggling which has forced us to reduce tobacco taxes in Ontario is leading to a rise in smoking, the effects of which are yet to be seen.

We cannot prohibit the use of tobacco -- it is too well established for that -- but we can and must take every possible measure to deter its use. This resolution will help. I strongly support it and I want to thank all those people in my riding who are working hard to reduce the use of tobacco.

The Deputy Speaker: Any further debate?

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): Thank you for the opportunity to speak briefly on this piece of legislation, or rather this resolution.

I want to first of all lament, as I have on a couple of occasions, the fact that I believe the private members' hour has been turned into a political forum for the political parties as opposed to the concerns of individual members. This is an example once again of dealing with something that's clearly outside the jurisdiction of the Ontario government. I would have preferred, and I've seen, some resolutions from members on the government side and from opposition members that have been specific to their ridings or very direct specific concerns.

This is simply another fed-bashing initiative on the part of a member of the government because they want to run against the federal government in the next election. That does not influence my discussion of the particular measure that's here, but I really think it distorts what this Legislature is all about.

I've watched this Legislature for 17 years, and it used to be that the private members' hour was in fact the private members' hour. The odd time there would be what you'd call things that would be dictated by the caucus office or the government or something like this, a strategy that you would face with the government, but it used to be genuinely, I think, a matter of concern, first of all, within provincial jurisdiction, and secondly, genuinely an individual's concern.

I'm not suggesting that Mr O'Connor is not concerned about the issue. I think he is, as all members are. I just find this part of a pattern of, why don't we bash somebody else? Next week they'll have one where we'll bash the banks, and after that we'll bash the opposition parties. It will happen. Unfortunately, it will happen with the opposition parties as well. So I don't lament it simply on the basis of the government doing it; I lament the fact that this private members' hour has turned into a very partisan forum.

The resolution itself, however, is before us. I would like to discuss aspects of it, because I think in its content it is to be supported. I happen to feel very strongly about the issue of smoking, particularly among young people in our society.

The provincial government has within its purview a lot of powers to deal with matters of this kind. Even with this resolution, the provincial government, while it may not have constitutional jurisdiction to require that the companies provide this, a very strong message from the Minister of Health demanding that particular information for those cigarettes sold within the province of Ontario would certainly be extremely helpful and difficult for the companies to try to resist.

I found rather interesting, as I think all members of the House did, the hearings that were conducted by a committee of the House of Representatives of the United States, where the major manufacturing companies had their top people brought before this committee. There were some interesting and revealing exchanges that took place on this occasion.

I think what we're really aiming at are two things. First of all, this resolution deals with the contents of the product. No matter how people feel about smoking -- and some people are very resentful when they get preached at for smoking -- one thing everyone is entitled to, and the federal authorities have been moving towards this for some time now and will continue to do so, is the revealing of just what people are smoking. At least people should know the contents and the adverse or positive effects of those contents.

I would suggest that overwhelmingly in this instance it is a negative effect on the health of people. Any time legislators at any level of government are in favour of revealing facts, of revealing information for people so they can make their own judgements, I think that is extremely beneficial.

All of us are concerned about this, but particularly among the young people who are starting out smoking. I've discussed this with a number of young people, and there's a natural reaction to those of us who are adults, perhaps who have some more experience. We have all had the opportunity, and it's not a pleasant opportunity, of seeing some of the effects of smoking, particularly serious diseases related to smoking.

I have often thought, morbid as it sounds, that it would be interesting to have young people go through the wards of various hospitals where people have been affected by tobacco products being smoked or perhaps chewed to see what the effect can be. It's always something distant for young people, something they feel they're not vulnerable to, and I think it's exceedingly important.

Young people are interested in information. I think that's why the information that would be forthcoming from what is asked for in this resolution would be useful for those young people to know. A lot of them are interested in science. They are interested in health facts. They often will say to you, "Why don't you give us the facts, and we'll make a decision." That doesn't always work, and sometimes government has to be more heavy-handed than people would like.

Many of the initiatives discussed at the committee of the Legislature that's been dealing with this and by those who had input are very, very positive, and listing and telling the effects of the contents of that found in cigarettes and cigars and other tobacco products is extremely important.

It is, in my view, one shared by members of the medical profession, probably the number one health hazard we face at this time, not to suggest that there aren't others, but the effect of smoking cigarettes, cigars, cigarillos and other things people smoke is very pronounced on people.

I suspect that most of those who are smokers, and perhaps even some members of the House are smokers, would like to quit. If you asked them: "Do you enjoy smoking? Do you really want to go on smoking?" most would say, "I don't want to, but I'm addicted to it." That gets down to the point the member has brought forward in his resolution, that there are addictive materials found in those tobacco products. That's why it's important to have this information revealed.

I hope within provincial purview, within our jurisdiction here -- and I think there's a pretty good consensus; this is one issue that's not overly partisan. There are always partisan considerations, but within the provincial purview, I think there's a strong consensus within this House for the provincial government to initiate many activities that would discourage young people particularly from smoking and encourage those who are older and committed smokers not to do so.

This resolution, if passed, will be helpful in focusing on that issue, and I certainly encourage all members of the Legislature to do what we can within our own jurisdiction to ensure that there's a diminishing in the smoking taking place in our province.

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): I come to this debate having been involved in it now for about eight or nine years. I think it's important that people know the ill effects tobacco can cause them, and the listing on a package of cigarettes of the various contents no doubt would be helpful.

I find it somewhat a concern, though, as a member of the provincial Legislature, that the parliamentary assistant for the Minister of Health brings forward a resolution which basically is thrusting responsibility or onus or burden upon another level of government. I would have much preferred that the parliamentary assistant for the Minister of Health had brought forward some kind of resolution which would push his government, push us in this Legislature, to take some action rather than shifting the burden to another level of government. For that reason, I find the resolution somewhat weak.

It's passing strange too that Bill 119, which is in front of this Legislature at the present time, empowers this government to do this very thing on its own.

Section 5 of Bill 119 provides that:

"No person shall sell or offer to sell tobacco at retail or for subsequent sale at retail or distribute or offer to distribute it for that purpose unless...

"(

b) the package bears or contains a health warning and other health information in accordance with the regulations."

That says to me that this government, this parliamentary assistant, has the right to make regulations through the cabinet doing exactly what he's asking the federal government to do. So why is the parliamentary assistant saying, "They should do it," rather than "We should do it"?

If the parliamentary assistant wants it to be done Canada-wide, and I think it makes some sense to do it Canada-wide, why would he not then say, "Provided that, if it's not done by" such-and-such a date, one year, two years hence, "the provincial government do it on its own under Bill 119"?

It's quite clear, in talking to legal counsel on the social development committee, that the provincial government probably has the power to require this on packaging. In fact, if that were not the case, the

section I have just read in vis-à-vis Bill 119 would not have been included.

We have had some debate on Bill 119 with regard to packaging, plain packaging etc, and my colleague has mentioned something about it. I don't believe the threats of the various tobacco packaging people at this time, but I do believe there should be some more debate on it. It's interesting to note too that

section 5, as it has been argued in the committee, existed in Bill 119 since it was introduced back in November 1993. These packaging companies did not choose to come in front of the social development committee to make their case. There has been some prior notice to them to come in front of the legislative committee and say this is going to cost jobs in various communities across Ontario.

The amendment to the regulations

section of the bill only made it more crystal clear that in the contemplation of this government there might be plain packaging somewhere down the road. Therefore, the idea that there has been no notice to the tobacco industry, to the tobacco packaging people, that plain packaging might have been in contemplation is not exactly correct. They had an opportunity to come before the social development committee to make their case and chose not to. So we are now caught in the conundrum of passing Bill 119 with them now claiming they did not have prior notice of this.

At any rate, what I would urge the government to do right now is dedicate part of the tobacco tax to help people in the tobacco packaging area, in case plain packaging does come and jobs are lost, so that these communities will be assisted by such a dedicated tax in the future.

Mr Gary Malkowski (York East): I'm very proud to participate in the debate today to support the resolution of the member for Durham-York.

The issue and the message calls for great cooperation by all levels of government: municipal, provincial and federal. This seems an appropriate place to raise the resolution, because we do require the list of all the chemicals and things that are included in tobacco products. What we need to do is make sure that young people are aware of what chemicals are in them and how the chemicals can affect their health and what problems can be caused from them.

I'd like to remind the members and remind people, both smokers and non-smokers, that we can give them more information about the deaths that happen as a result of using tobacco products. We have to remember that every 40 minutes there is the death of someone who has used tobacco products. We need to realize that those chemicals can affect health. When it is lit, the gaseous particles or the byproducts that are in the smoke and consumed or ingested by the body have an impact on us.

It can cause an increase in heart disease and lung cancer. There can be chronic bronchitis and emphysema. There is the problem of cancer of the mouth, cancer of the throat and cancer of the oesophagus. With young mothers who are pregnant, this smoke can have an impact on the foetus and there can be very low birth weight and that will have an impact on the children. Also, sometimes it can affect the foetus so that there are some disabilities.

It's curious that the federal Liberal government was so concerned about the issue of smuggling and the economy that it ignored the issue of people's health and how smoking can affect people. I think we require cooperation from the federal government. I'm a parent of five small children and I know it's difficult for parents to talk to their kids about this issue and not to sound like they're preaching, but it does require everyone's cooperation.

I would ask that the federal government and tobacco companies be made to list the individual products, the more than 400 things that are included in their products and the health effects they can cause. The tobacco industry denies there is any connection between what they include in their products and health, but there is proof. I think the denial shows clear irresponsibility.

In the borough of East York, the borough of East York health unit has done a lot of research. There is also the Ontario tobacco strategy which has been developed by our government. There are many different groups that are collecting information and evidence through research on the number of deaths that are happening from tobacco use. There is this information, as well as the young mothers again who have the unborn children who are affected by their smoking.

To wrap up, I would like to say that this resolution be supported by all members. We also call on the municipal government and the federal government for cooperation, because what we need to do is get the best information that will have an impact on young children to prevent them from smoking and that will keep them healthier and able to live longer. I would just like to remind members that young people think smoking is really cool, but it isn't. It kills, and that's the message the young people need to learn.

Mr Gordon Mills (Durham East): I'm very pleased to stand in my place this morning and speak to this resolution, and a very fine resolution, I might say, by my colleague the member for Durham-York.

The basic issue we're talking about here this morning is that people have a right to know what's in cigarettes, what's in tobacco, what's in chewing tobacco. They have a right to know, and they're denied that at the moment. I think that's absolutely criminal.

I find it very strange indeed that when I go to the grocery store, as the honourable member opposite said in his comments, to buy a box of cornflakes, listed thereupon are all the ingredients in that box of cornflakes. Likewise, when I buy a vitamin pill, should I need one -- I don't -- there are all the ingredients about what you're going to digest in your system. But here we have a system whereby cancerous substances are introduced into cigarettes and by this wonderful quirk of, "Oh it's our secret; you're not supposed to know," nobody knows what they're taking into their system.

If they knew what they were taking into their system, I think it would have a tremendous effect on smoking, particularly smoking by young people, which really is what we should be focusing on.

I found it also very interesting that in the United States they've had extensive debate about the ingredients in cigarettes, tobacco etc, and it's a known fact that some of the ingredients that are introduced into tobacco products by some of the manufacturers are not fit to be put in a toxic landfill site. They're so toxic that you would have to make special arrangements to dispose of them; You just can't ditch them out. Doesn't that give us the message?

If a food manufacturer, say -- and we'll use cornflakes as an example because most people eat cornflakes -- were introducing some cancerous, toxic ingredients into the cornflakes, I would imagine there would be a public outcry of proportions you wouldn't be able to contain. People would march on Parliament Hill in Ottawa, and I've no doubt they would march on the Legislature here, demanding that we do something about this. In turn, I'm sure the manufacturers would be locked up for a very long time for killing people all over the place. Yet we seem to accept this and we seem to think this is wonderful.

I was very upset to hear some of the comments from the Conservative Party in so far as the packaging and the job loss. I recognize too that there's a certain amount of job loss, but when you compare -- I think the member for Simcoe West referred to 13 people who may lose their jobs, and in the meantime we've got thousands and thousands of people who perish every year through tobacco products. I don't think that makes a very logical argument. It almost seems they're apologists for the tobacco industry.

I'd like to bring up the New York Times Magazine. It says: "Hi folks. Mr Butt's here. Ever wonder what it takes to be a top tobacco industry executive?" Then this next cigarette says, "Well, to begin with, you've got to be absolutely nuts about freedom, I mean certifiably nuts about freedom, and you have to love choice," it says. The headline of the New York Times Magazine

article says, "How Do They Live With Themselves?" How do these tobacco executives live with themselves? How do the people live with themselves who criticize my colleague's resolution? How do they live with themselves? I say shame on all of them. This is such an issue that no one should stand in their place and criticize my friend at all. It's absolutely diabolical to suggest that he has some motives that aren't for the health of this country. It's awful.

Then we have the executive from Philip Morris who says: "I don't know how I look at myself in the mirror. I wish they wouldn't say things about me like that." This is the executive from Philip Morris; he's ashamed of himself.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Durham-York, you have two minutes.

Mr O'Connor: I want to thank the members who participated, the member for York-Mackenzie for his support.

The member for Simcoe West complained that the federal government and the NDP were caving on the tax issue. I wish the Tories, when they were in power, had dealt with it properly. I wish they had stuck with the excise tax. Four weeks, it took them, to cave. They're the party who talks about business, yet they don't care about those retailers who are on the Ontario-Quebec border. I find that passing strange.

The member for St Catharines mentioned you should talk about your local constituents. That's the thing. The fact is that each and every member of the Legislature has a hundred people in their riding who are dying from tobacco-related illnesses. I've got proactive groups in my riding such as the Coalition for a Smoke-Free Uxbridge. I told them some of the things I'm doing on this issue, and they sent me this little book, Where There's Smoke. It's a children's book and one I would advise every member of the Legislature to get a copy of.

I'll have an opportunity to speak in my riding about this at the Georgina Festival of Stories, and this is the book I'm taking this year. This isn't something about bashing one level of government or another; this is about a hundred of my constituents who are going to die prematurely, who don't need to, and that's not a partisan issue.

I thank my colleagues the members for Peterborough and York East and Durham East for their thoughts, their suggestions and their support.

To the member for Carleton, I'd suggest he read the reprinted edition of Bill 119, because

section 5 covers it. It's unfortunate that he hadn't, but we talked a little bit and we can talk some more. Unfortunately, Bill 119 is being held up. My opposition colleagues told me they're going to drag it through committee of the whole House, with half-hour bells on every section. Not to bash them, I think that's unfortunate. This resolution is about all of our constituents and all those people who are going to die not knowing what's in tobacco products, and I suggest that Pat Borders might want to quit.

The Deputy Speaker: The time provided for private members' public business has expired.

PUBLIC SECTOR EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION DISCLOSURE ACT, 1993 / LOI DE 1993 SUR LA DIVULGATION DE LA RÉTRIBUTION DES CADRES DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): We will deal first with ballot item number 51, standing in the name of Mr Stockwell. If any members are opposed to a vote on this bill, will they please rise.

Mr Stockwell has moved second reading of Bill 114,

An Act to provide for the Disclosure of Executive Compensation in the Public Sector. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the nays have it.

Call in the members; this will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1204 to 1209.

The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please rise and remain standing until your names are called.

Ayes

Abel, Arnott, Beer, Bradley, Callahan, Caplan, Carr, Carter, Crozier, Duignan, Eddy, Frankford, Grandmaître, Haeck, Hansen, Harrington, Hayes, Hodgson, Hope, Huget, Johnson (Don Mills), Johnson (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings), Klopp, Lessard;

MacKinnon, Malkowski, Mammoliti, Marchese, Marland, Martin, Mathyssen, McLean, Miclash, Mills, Morrow, Murdoch (Grey-Owen Sound), O'Connor, Offer, Owens, Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt), Poole, Rizzo, Sola, Sterling, Stockwell, Sutherland, Tilson, Turnbull, Wessenger, Wilson (Kingston and The Islands), Wilson (Simcoe West), Winninger, Wiseman, Wood.

The Deputy Speaker: Those opposed to the motion will please rise and remain standing.

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 54, the nays 0.

The Deputy Speaker: The ayes being 54 and the nays 0, I declare the motion carried.

Pursuant to standing order 96(k), the bill is referred to the committee of the whole.

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): Mr Speaker, considering there was unanimous endorsement by this House and unanimous across the floor, could I rethink the motion? No, I'm just kidding. Considering that it's unanimous, can I ask that it be moved to the public accounts committee?

The Deputy Speaker: Shall it be moved to the public accounts committee?

All those opposed will please rise.

All those in favour will please rise.

A majority is not in favour. Therefore, the bill is referred to the committee of the whole.

TOBACCO PRODUCTS

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): We will now deal with ballot item number 52, standing in the name of Mr O'Connor.

If anyone is opposed to a vote on this bill, please rise.

Mr O'Connor has moved private member's resolution number 40. It is the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

All matters related to private members' business have been debated. I will now leave the chair and the House will resume at 1:30.

The House recessed from 1214 to 1330.

VISITORS

Mr Gregory S. Sorbara (York Centre): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Just very briefly, if I might, as a point of order, take the opportunity to introduce to members of the Legislature a delegation from Pescina, Italy, led by the mayor of Pescina, Vincenzo Parisse, and welcome them, about 20 visitors in the members' gallery west. We're very pleased to have them here in Ontario and visiting our Legislature.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): The honourable member will know that he does not have a point of order. However, our visitors are very special visitors. They're most welcome to this, our assembly of Ontario.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY PRESS GALLERY

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I rise today to offer congratulations to the new executive of the Queen's Park press gallery. The gallery's annual elections were held today and for the first time in recent memory there was a contest for the position of president. Richard Brennan of the Windsor Star, sometimes known as Mr Congeniality, edged out Guy LePage of CKCO-TV in Kitchener, 20 votes to 18.

Much of the credit for Brennan's landslide victory goes to Brennan's campaign manager, Jim Coyle of the Ottawa Citizen. Coyle came up with Brennan's campaign slogan, "Better the devil you know."

There is good news in today's election for those of us who are long-serving incumbents and thinking about re-election. Mr Brennan, who is known by his nickname, the Plain Dealer, is serving his fourth term as president, the longest in press gallery history.

There is also a lesson for the government in Mr Brennan's victory: Brennan has never broken a campaign promise because he has never made a campaign promise. Mr Brennan won under difficult circumstances. As the government members know, Mr Brennan and Mr Coyle are under police investigation over a leaked document concerning the Windsor casino.

When will this cloud be lifted from these two crusading journalists? Free the Press Gallery Two.

The other four positions on the executive were acclaimed, the envy of all politicians: Emilia Casella of the Hamilton Spectator, vice-president for print journalists; Guy LePage, CKCO-TV, vice-president for electronic journalists; Randy Rath, CHCH-TV Hamilton, treasurer; and Betsy Powell of Canadian Press has been acclaimed as secretary.

I hope all members will join me in congratulating the new executive of the Queen's Park press gallery.

TAOIST T'AI CHI

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): I'm pleased to announce to the House, on behalf of the Taoist T'ai Chi Society of Canada and its founder, Master Moy Lin-shin, the following statement: In celebration of the Taoist T'ai Chi Seniors' Health Day, to be held next week at Nathan Phillips Square in Toronto from 1 pm to 3 pm, there will be demonstrations of Taoist t'ai chi by seniors, who will demonstrate first hand the health-improving benefits of this complete physiological exercise.

In celebration of this event, all regular instructors' fees for Taoist t'ai chi classes for seniors will be waived for the remainder of 1994. The vast majority of these classes are funded by government agencies. In these difficult times, Master Moy would like to recognize the support he personally and the Taoist T'ai Chi Society, a registered charity, have received over the years by returning a helping hand.

In Metropolitan Toronto, Taoist t'ai chi is taught at over 60 locations weekly. In other parts of the province, approximately 20 more classes are taught to seniors. The waiving of fees for these many weekly classes is a considerable undertaking.

The aims and objectives of the Taoist t'ai chi society are to promote the health-improving qualities of t'ai chi and to make t'ai chi available to all, to promote cultural exchange and to help others. The Taoist t'ai chi society hopes that all gestures of mutual supportiveness will create a climate of goodwill and cooperation among us all.

ACCESS TO CHILDREN IN CUSTODY

Mr Tony Rizzo (Oakwood): I would like to bring to the attention of the House the problem of grandparents who have been denied access to their grandchildren. When there is a divorce with children involved or when one parent dies, very often grandparents can be caught in a conflict where they are prevented from seeing their grandchildren. This is unfortunate and unacceptable.

While the best interests of the child must always continue to take precedence, I strongly believe that the Children's Law Reform Act should be amended to prevent a parent or person with custody from placing unreasonable obstacles between children and their grandparents. We must ensure that the emotional ties between them are not severed as a result of a parental conflict and that access to children is not restricted by a child's guardian. Sadly, this is often the case and children are regularly denied the privilege and enjoyment of their grandparents' company. The result is a loss of their rightful heritage.

Later today, I will introduce a bill to address this very issue and I strongly encourage all members of the House to support it.

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

Mr Hans Daigeler (Nepean): Today, I would like to do something that perhaps doesn't happen often enough in this House and that is to congratulate and thank the Ontario civil service. Frankly, independent of the parties, there are civil servants out there who are doing a good job, who are trying to do their best under the circumstances.

Last week, I came across an example that I thought was very innovative and should be mentioned as a very positive step forward. Somebody had a real brainwave and I think should be congratulated on behalf of the House. We got from the communications branch of the Ministry of the Attorney General this diskette. This diskette describes, in electronic form, the legal services that are available across the province.

I would just like to point out to you what's on this diskette. There's a description in terms of address and also what they do of the provincial legal services, the agencies, boards and commissions that are there, the community legal organizations, the legal services by region, all broken down. Also on this diskette you can find where the Chinese-language services are available, where the French-language services are available, advocacy, counselling services and so on and so on.

Frankly, I think it's an innovative way to cut down on paper. I tried it at home on my computer and it's very easy to access. It's great to use in the members' constituency offices and for anybody out there in the community who is interested to learn what the Ontario government and the bureaucracy has available. So I recommend this to you and I commend the staff who have developed this.

FORD MOTOR CO OF CANADA

Mr Gary Carr (Oakville South): Congratulations are in order to the Ford Motor Co in my riding of Oakville South for the good news story that they will be spending $400 million over the next two years to expand their truck-painting facility. This will create 500 construction jobs and provide a much-needed boost to the local economy. The Oakville factories have increased their employees by about 800 in the last three years.

Ford had previously announced that it would be building the new Windstar minivan in Oakville, and that was excellent news, but to have received this extra investment is good news indeed. Vehicle sales are increasing and all predictions indicate that Ford is going to have a profitable year. In the next 36 months, 16 new vehicles are going to be introduced, and Ford is strongly positioned to take advantage of the gradually improving economy.

I offer my sincere congratulations to the Ford workers and management, who have been the true success story. All of us in this Legislature should be very pleased with this good news.

MOTORCYCLE SAFETY

Mr Ron Hansen (Lincoln): I rise today to inform the House of an issue that directly affects 165,000 residents of Ontario: motorcycle safety and awareness. With each passing year, more and more residents of this province are driving motorcycles and mopeds, but they face a hidden danger: other motorists.

In 1991, the last year for which statistics are available, 55 motorists and nine passengers were killed on the highways and byways of Ontario, many after colliding with cars and trucks. Add to that number 2,183 injuries to motorcycle drivers and 487 to passengers.

A good number of these deaths and injuries could have been prevented if more motorists were in the habit of looking twice before entering intersections and if more riders had taken motorcycle safety courses. This is why Bikers' Rights of Ontario, a non-profit group dedicated to responsible motorcycle legislation, wants the province to raise motorcycle safety awareness by declaring May of each year as Motorcycle Safety Awareness Month.

In recent years, myself and the member for Kitchener-Wilmot sponsored a bikers' rights rally here at Queen's Park. Many of these same riders signed petitions, which have been presented to the House, asking the province to officially declare May as Motorcycle Safety Awareness Month.

On behalf of the 165,000 riders of Ontario, I would ask that the Premier consider officially proclaiming May as Motorcycle Safety Awareness Month throughout the province of Ontario.

NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY EMPLOYEES

Mr Steven Offer (Mississauga North): If you listen to recent media reports, you would swear the NDP caucus is a house divided. I stand in my place today to say that the media, respectfully, are wrong. The NDP isn't divided. In fact, they are just one big, happy family.

Yes, nepotism and the NDP seem to go hand in hand. The corridors of power are full of NDP family members. There are now five members of the Mackenzie family who are drawing their salaries directly from the taxpayers of Ontario. A sixth family member is also a full-time organizer for the NDP.

For the Mackenzie family members, Bob, David, Dan, Lori, Andrew and Rachel, every day at work is a family reunion. This is just the beginning. It would appear everyone who works for the NDP is somehow related.

There's David Agnew and his wife, Sheila Kirouac; Marilyn Roycroft and her husband, Peter Mosher; Lucille Roch and her husband, Michael Decter; Murray Weppler and his wife, Patty Park.

We even have Ross McClellan and his wife, Pat, whose daughter, Maura, works for Elaine Ziemba. Of course, her daughter, Laura Ziemba, works for Brian Charlton, whose wife, Chris, works for Ross McClellan, which I believe brings me back to where I started.

It's no wonder there are no jobs left for ordinary Ontarians. They have all been taken by the brothers and sisters, husbands and wives, and of course the children of the NDP cabinet ministers.

CARMEN LEMCKE

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): I have the pleasure of acknowledging the hard work and dedication of a retired member of the Shelburne police force. Carmen Lemcke served as the chief of police for Shelburne for 37 years.

Carmen Lemcke is the longest-serving police chief in Ontario and quite possibly Canada. Carmen is known in the community as not only a fair and tough chief of police, but also as an individual who felt a strong and active community was a healthy community. Carmen actively participated in sports groups within Shelburne and has coached four minor hockey teams to Ontario championships.

Carmen is the classic community-minded civil servant who saw the benefit of putting back into the community as much as or more than you can get from it. There are few residents in Shelburne who cannot tell you a story about Chief Lemcke, whether it is through their children at the local arena or coming to their aid when they need the security and assistance of the Shelburne police force.

Many things have changed at the police station since Chief Lemcke joined the force as a constable in 1956. One thing never changed in those 37 years: Chief Lemcke felt the police force was most effective when it was part of the community, not a separate group that watched from the sidelines. You have to be involved and effective. Chief Lemcke actively pursued the new goals of community policing during his tenure of 37 years.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank him and his family for their dedication, to a community, that has not gone unnoticed.

CAVAN ECOGARDEN

Ms Jenny Carter (Peterborough): I want to congratulate Richard Miller and other community members involved with the new EcoGarden project at Maple Leaf Park in Cavan township.

The dedication of this park was a fitting way for the Cavan community to celebrate Earth Day and there was an excellent turnout this past Sunday. Trees were planted to mark the boundaries of the new garden and I was happy to be present for the sod-turning ceremony, which dedicated the garden to the memory of the past and the promise of the future.

The main benefit of this garden will be educational. I believe this EcoGarden and others like it will become a major educational influence in this area, as well as a source of pleasure, of comradeship, of beauty and of nutrition.

There is a universal need for people to come together to find common solutions to common problems. I believe communities will continue to work together to ensure that we do not irrevocably damage the wonderful environment on which we all depend, both for our physical health and for the joy it gives.

My congratulations again to Mr Miller and the community of Cavan. May the EcoGarden flourish.

Hon Bob Mackenzie (Minister of Labour): Mr Speaker, I understand we have unanimous consent for a statement on the day of mourning.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Agreed? Agreed.

DAY OF MOURNING

Hon Bob Mackenzie (Minister of Labour): This 28th day of April has a very special significance for the workers in the province of Ontario. This is the annual day of mourning for all of those who have died as a result of workplace accidents or occupational illnesses. All across Ontario, workers have gathered to express their feelings. Our common purpose is to honour the dead and show solidarity with the injured workers.

Let us remember that last year Ontario recorded 292 workplace fatalities and approximately 137,000 workplace injuries. While we share the grief of the bereaved and injured, we must bear in mind that much more needs to be done by all concerned to improve occupational health and safety. There still are workplaces where only the absolute minimum is done, where corners are cut to do things the easy way.

In addition to the unacceptable human toll, workplace accidents create an enormous financial burden of about $12 billion a year. That's the estimated cost to the Ontario economy of the six million working days lost by injured workers.

There is another dimension of today's observance from which we can take some consolation. Statistics for the last several years show a decline in the rate of workplace fatalities and injuries, even when the figures are adjusted for reduced economic activity in the recession. In spite of the improvement, we must continue to do our utmost to bring the tragic and unnecessary workplace fatality toll to zero.

I want to remind the House about the origin of the day of mourning. When the Ontario Federation of Labour selected this date for observance in the 1980s, the intention was to mark the anniversary of the original Workers' Compensation Act, which was passed on this day in this Legislature in 1914, exactly 80 years ago.

It is fitting that in this 80th anniversary year this government is reforming and renewing the original act, bringing forth a comprehensive package of improvements for it. I am happy that the reform package contains compassionate measures for the most vulnerable injured workers. The first tangible benefits of reform will go to them.

As members will recall, about 45,000 older injured workers and family members who are living in difficult circumstances will continue to have their WCB pensions fully indexed for inflation. The same applies to pensions of survivors and the fully disabled. Moreover, many unemployed older workers who receive minimal WCB benefits will get a pension increase of $200 a month. This increase is not subject to social assistance clawback. The first beneficiaries of the WCB reform package include many of the families of those whom we mourn today.

The positive news for injured workers actually began last year, when our government announced funding of $2.5 million over five years for injured workers' groups to expand their services. Freed from financial worry, injured workers' groups have been able to concentrate on becoming effective advocates for their very worthy cause, and the WCB reforms attest to that.

I see other reasons for being optimistic about things being done in Ontario and across Canada to improve occupational health and safety. Specifically, I want to mention the considerable progress that is being made in 13 jurisdictions across the country on a national harmonization plan for health and safety standards everywhere. Soon to be published are the country-wide regulations to improve health and safety in many sectors where agreement is virtually complete. But again I feel more remains to be done before we convince all employers and employees to treat workplace health and safety with the utmost urgency.

In memory of our fallen workers, let us resolve that constant vigilance and prevention of workplace tragedies must be the absolute first priority in our workplaces in Ontario.

Mr Steven W. Mahoney (Mississauga West): As the minister has said, today, April 28, marks the 80th anniversary of the first workers' legislation passed in all of Canada. Ironically, this was the result of a royal commission appointed in 1910 by the government of the day and headed by Justice Meredith. The principles of Justice Meredith's royal commission report apply probably more today than even they did in 1914. It is a day we remember and mourn workers killed and injured on the job.

That day, 80 years ago, was a landmark in Canada when governments began passing laws that would improve working conditions for all employees. Now workers have the right to expect safe Ontario workplaces, and when injury does occur, compensation is a worker's inherent right, as is the right for rehabilitation.

The Workers' Compensation Board was formed to ensure that injured workers on the job receive fair compensation for their workplace injuries and that proper health and safety standards are in place in all Ontario workplaces to prevent workplace accidents and deaths.

While improvements have been made since that first legislation was passed, 373,050 claims were filed in Canada in 1993. This incredible number is evidence that much more needs to be done in the area of prevention and in the improvement of health and safety standards.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the organizations and individuals participating in events to mark this very solemn day. As we observe today a moment of silence for workers killed or injured in the workplace and for their families, let us pledge ourselves to attaining better health and safety standards to protect Ontario workers and their families.

There isn't anyone who sits in this House today who has not been touched one way or another personally by someone in the family or a close friend or acquaintance who has been injured or perhaps even killed in the workpl