• y - y LEGISLATIVE LIBRARY CIRCULATING COPY PLEASE RETURN Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Number 63 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 'D, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 2'1· 1971 The House met 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ,MR. SPEAKER: Order! Tape 759 (morning) PK - 1 HON. E.li. ROBERTS: (MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased indeed to be able to announce to the House · that the Government have now taken the action necessary to provide the people of Newfoundland with a significant new Health Care Programme at less direct cost to the people. Beginning on June 1st. all basic dental care in this Province will be made available free of charge to all children up to and including those aged ten years.

This is only phase one of our programme, Sir, As we have already announced,our programme is aimed at providing dental care free of charge to all children up to and including age twelve. We are implementing phase one immediately. The cost will be met out of public funds. Until now, Mr. Speaker, the House is aware that the Government's free dental care programme for children has been limited to three age groups, children age five, children age six, children age seven. All children.from birth until they finish their tenth year, until they turn eleven, all children up to and including age ten, Mr.

Speaker, are now cov~red under our programme, Mr. Speaker, time and time again dentists have diligently worked to help young children build up strong and cavity.free teeth, only to find that once these children become eight years of age, the children disappear from it a dentist office. Too often when they do return/is with teeth that have cavities in them. In this way, Sir, much of the value of th~ dental care that the children have been receiving at public expense, at Government expense,during their first school years.has been lost.

The new expansion of our Children's Dental Care Programme wil~ ensure that children continue to benefit from good dental hygiene, good dental treatment for a much longer time. Speak of the Government itself and received the advice of the Newfoundland Dental Association on the implementation of this programme, their council has proven to be of very great value indeed, not only to help us implement this expanded scheme but in determining 4704

Tape 759 (morning) PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: the other directions in which the Government should move to enable our people to have better dental care. The Government as part of the plan, Sir, will reimburse dentists in private practice for this basic dental work perfom bn children up to and including the age of ten, will reimburse the dentist at ninety percent of the fee set forth in the Dental Associations,1971, Fee Schedule.

The dentists who practice part-time privately and part-time in Government service will continue to be reimbursed for the time they spend treating children. under the Children's Dental Care Programme. However, the rate of reimbursement will be increased,with effect from June 1st. Formerlly we paid dentists at the rate of $15 to $18 an hour, Sir, depending on their length of service. I am sorry, we will pay them at a rate of $15 to $18, formerlly we paid them at a rate of $11 to $14. Mr.

Speaker, in all now there are sixty-five dentists in this Province, forty-three of them in full-time private practice, seventeen othersin part-time Government service, part-time private practice, and five with the International Grenfell Association in Northern Newfoundland and in the Labrador. Mr. Speaker, the Government do not propose to limit our programme to children who have reached their eleventh birthday. We intend to expand this programme eventualtso that every child in Newfoundland and Labrador will receive free dental care until he reaches his thirteenth birthday.

That is our long range policy which I outlined at the Development Conference held in February. Mr. Speaker, the provision of basic dental care,free of charge to children,is not in itself a cure.it-all for the very real dental probaems which people of all ages have throughout this Province. Our programme is only one part of the answer and we realize this. There is another; public education about dental hygiene and, even more importantly still, .the recruitment of more dentists to work in all parts of Newfoundland. 4705

May 2'7, 1971 Tape 759 ( 111ol(N1n:J .) PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I have asked the Dental Association and they have agreed, quite willingly and eagerly,to work with my officials,to determine the proper solutions to these problems. My colleagues and I hope and expect that shortly we will be in a position to make further announcements on that. Mr. Speaker, I may also say that the success of this new programme will depend upon the degree of co-~peration which we receive and the dentists receive from the parents of children who will benefit from it.

I think all of us appreciate the willingness of parents, the eagerness of parents to ensure that their children have the full benefits to which they are entitled. However, I think, the dentists will encounter some trying moments a8 the expanded programme comes into effect. I urge parents to adopt restraint in dealing with the dentists during this time, Dentists in turn have promised to make extra efforts to bring the programme into effect.

I .for one, Sir; and my colleagues are quite confident.-.that the people of Newfoundland will co-operate with the dentists to ensure that this Children's Dental Care Programm.e,on this new expanded bases>will be a very great benefit to the children of our Province. MR. J. C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, ha1;· the minister got copies of that? Is he going to supply us with copies? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, of course, Mr. Speaker, if they are not in the Clerk's hands, I will have them their shortly. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. R. BARBOUR: Mr.

Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition from the residents who live in the following communities:Kings Cove, Plate Cove East, Plate Cove West, Open Hall, Red Cliff, Tickle's Cove, Duntara, Keel's, SE__ock, Cove and Knight's Cove. Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition,which is signed by several hundred people, and I only received this a couple of seconds ago, is 4706

}fay 27th. 1971 Tape 759 (,moi'\1Y1w9) · PK - 4 MR. BARBOUR: petitioning the Government to provide them with medical facilities. Now, Sir, I know something about what is going to happen this year concerning medical facilities for the communities I have referred to in the petition. I am sure the hon. Minister of Health, perhaps, will in supporting this petition give us more facts concerning this. I am very happy, Sir, to present the petition, I ask that it be received and referred to the department to which it relates. Om motion petition received. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, it is voted on.

The hon. member for Bonavista South did not· read the petition. I do not know why be did not read it, whether there was something there he did not want to read. MR. BAIIBOUR: I have my reasons. MR. CROSBIE: Oh, well, ah, that is not good enough. A petition, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: MR. CROSBIE: MR. BARBOUR: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARBOUR.: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. A petition, Mr. Speaker, Inaudible. Order, please. I have good reasons, Mr. Speaker. I have the floor, Mr. Speaker. Order, please. I have the floor, Mr. Speaker, One person at a time. MR. CROSBIE: Exactly.

I have the floor. Here is a petition being presented to the House, Mr. Speakeri the member presenting the petition does not read the petition. The hon. the member for Bonavista South. all he said is that he has a petition from this area,to do with medical facilities. Now if the petition is going to be presented to this House, surely the prayer of the petition should be read. The hon. gentleman may have his reasons. fresumably there is something in the wording of the petition that he does not want to read to the House. It is a disgraceful exhibition. 4707

}'.ay 27, 1971 Tape 759 (morning) PK - 5 MR. CROSBIE: If this petition deals with medical facilities in the King's Cove area, King's Cove and the Duntara and the rest of that area, I would like to support the petition. MR. BARBOUR: I am getting bored, I am getting bored with the chief's remarks. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. CROSBIE: It is difficult, Mr. Speaker, to support a petition when the person presenting the petition has not had the decency and courtesy and honesty to read the petition. MR. BARBOUR· He cannot get any votes in Bonavista South. MR. CROSBIE: We will see. MR.

SPEAKER: Will the hon. member please - MR. CROSBIE: sit down and stop clowning around. MR. BAR.BOUR: I will not sit down, because you tell me_ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, it is difficulty to support a petition, when you have not heard the prayer read. Hut if the petition is for the improvement of medical and health facilities in that area, I certainly support it, because the area certainly needs improved medical - listen,we know the dictator is on the radio now)shouting closure. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Will we keep to the point of the petition. MR.

CROSBIE: If we are to keep to the point of the petition, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier better keep "the conversation with the Premier"where he cannot be contradicted. If it is for the improvement of the medical facilities ef the King's Cove, Duntara area, Mr. Speaker, MR, BARBOUR: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I only received the petition about a minute ago, I know what is going to happen in the district so far as medical facilities for this area is concerned. I have already conferred with the Minister of Health on it.

I have been after him,God knows, for many, many days. tte had no 4708

May 27, 1971 Tape 759 (morning) PK - 6 MR. BARBOUR: rest, but he had given me this kind of satisfaction. Now the reason why I did not read the petition 1 because I did not think so - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker that is not a point of order. MR. BARBOUR: I have the floor. MR. SP.EAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. SMALLWOOD: Sit down. Sit down. MR. CROSBIE: Shut upJ HR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The hon. member will please explain his point of the petition. MR. SP.BAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: Now can I resume my remarks, Mr. Speakerl MR. SPEAKER: Order!

I will ask the hon, member for Bonavista South to explain his point of order. MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, what I am trying to explain is this, I am pretty sure I know what is going to happen in this area. MR. SPEAKER: This is not explaining the point of order. MR. BARBOUR: I am trying to follow up, Sir. I know, I am pretty sure - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have the floor now.lf'his is not a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Will the hon. member sit down,please? The hon. member is not explaining his point of order: he is explaining why he did not read the petition.

This matter can be cleared up quite easily, Will the hon. member resume his seat? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the petition apparently is for the improvement of a medical and health facility in the King's Cove area , and 1although I do not know exactly what the petition states, I gather that is the general import of the petition, We would certainly support it, because the medical and health facilities in that area are backward and have been backward for years, despite the fact that the hon. the member opposite has been the member there for ten or twelve years.

When a petition is presented to this House that the person presenting the petition does not 4709

May 27, 1971 Tape 759 (morning) PK - 7 MR. CROSBIE: even read, then there is something very, very wrong. I presume, Mr. Speaker, we are going to hear now from the Minister of Health that there will be a clinic down there,to be called the "Barbour Medical Clinic." MR. SMALLWOOD: Why not? MR. CROSBIE: There is going to be a bridge named the, "Barbour Bridge." What childness? Why not? '\.fuy not\''he says, the.-hon. Premier says, ~y not,is quite correct. Let us have a Barbour Medical Clinic down there. MR. SMALLWOOD: A Crosbie Clinic. MR. CROSBIE: No, no, I do not want my name down there.

I do not want my name put down there,nor put anywhere. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is right. MR. CROSBIE: I am satisfied to be able to be in this House and to speak here 1 despite the dictatorship of the Premier. That does me. I do not need my name on a bridge nor a clinic. MR. SPEAKER: There have been remarks made by any hon,member relative to the petition that is being presented by the hon. member for Bonavista South. MR. CROSBIE: Definitely, Mr. Speaker, and therefore, Mr. Speaker, I support this petition which is to overcome the years of neglect that area has suffered.

I hope that the Minister of Health will be announcing improvements there, not just for this year, Election Year, but for the years to come. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support of this petition,by way of explanation as well.

The hon. the member for Bonavista South receives a petition,which contains some 731 signatures,a few moments ago, I.Tell he did not have an opportunity to count the names, apparently, a few moment ago, because this petition had been presented to us as well, and we did the courtesy to the hon. member of giving him the petition,since he represents the district,for him to present it. However, the petition is as follows, Mr. Speaker;

Whereas the residents of King's Cove, Plate Cove East, Plate Cove West, Open Hall, Red Cliff, 4710

May 27, 1971 Tape 759 (morning) PK - 8 MR. MARSHALL: Tickle Cove, Duntara, Keel's, Stock Cove, and Knight's Cove, in the District of Bonavista South 1are without the services of a medical doctor, and encounter great difficulty and considerable expense in being required to pay transportation costs of up to $25 per doctors visits. And

whereas when such a home visit is necessary have to either secure the aid of an ordained minister or priest or welfare office to certify the patient's condition, and even then incur considerable mental and physical anguish, if a doctor from Bonavista or Catalina is too busy to manage such a visit. And

whereas the following eligible voters of the aforementioned settlements hmnbly petitioned the Speaker of the House of Assembly for Newfoundland and Labrador and its elected representatives to grant the prayer of this petition.

Whereas we the below signed eligible voters petition that a medical doctor be resident in the community of King's Cove to serve the people of King's Cove, Plate Cove East, Plate Cove West, Open Hall, Red Cliff, TicklJ Cove, Duntara, Keel's, Stock Cove and Knight Cove to safeguard the public health and protect our children and elderly citizens from the hardships of inadequate medical care. Now this is the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, that has been presented by the hon. the member for Bonavista South, I might state that amongst the names of the people who signed this petition are the Rev. James A.

Beresford, the parish priest of King's Cove.and the Rev. M. R. Hynes of Plate Cove. There is also the fact that the people in Bonavista South,and this is what all this petition is about,~he people in Bonavista South were promised in 1966, as so many of the people in Newfoundland were made promises in every dist~ict by the Liberal Party. a special nursing clinic to be placed in King's Coverand this has not been done.

As a result of this.many people who are out of work in the area, all throughout the area of Bonavista South and i~deed this petition could pertain to other areas as well, even though we have medicare, they find themselves having to pay large amounts of money,up 4711

May 27, 1971 Tape 759 (rno/1..tl 1rJ j PK - 9 MR. MARSHALL: to $25 per visit 1 to get a doctor there.for transportation costs. The Government has failed miserably have not carried out its promise in 1966, and the net result of this is ; we have 731 people from Bonavista South petitioning this House and asking in effect that the Government at least carry through the promises it made some four or five years ago. So with these remarks, Mr.

Speaker, I heartedly support the petition presented by the hon. member for Bonavista South,at our behest.we asked that it be referred to him first,as a matter of courtesy,and I heartedly support the petition and I know that the member for Bonavista South will bring great pressure to bear ~n the Government to at least 1in his district anyway.have this Government comply with the many problems that it made, not only in this area . but other areas for the District of Bonavista South.

It is a disgraceful situation that has arisen down there and I say a dangerous situation with respect of the health and well-being and welfare of the people of King's Cove, Plate Cove East, etc. down in this area. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, now that the petition has been properly presented and explained by a member on this side, we have no hesitation : whatsoever in supporting this petition because it is so similar to petitions from many other parts of the Province.

Inspite of all the wonderful progress we hear.which has been made in medical services in recent years , there f.rom are still many parts of the Province,including the onekhich the petition comes and which is presented by our friend from Bonavista South, t'here are still many sections of the country which do not have the rudimentary and necessary medical services,and we have no hesitation whatsoever in supporting a petition of this kind. The fact is, of course, Mr. Speaker, that the Government is very quick to announce programmes such as it has done this morning, which are great vote getters.

But when it comes to providing the absolutely, the 4712

May 27, 1971 Tape 759 (morning) Pk - 10 MR. EARLE: elementary and rudimentary medical services, they very often fall down on the job. Now there is considerable money provided for this service, we hear this morning. But, at t!he same time, they cannot obtain the necessary doctors to take care of the people in other needs of medicine. While we support a programme like this, I think . we should,at the same time,urge upon the hon. Minister of Health that he redouble his effort to secure doctors and medical help and aurses and clinics for so many of the areas of the country where they are so sadly lacking.

It is a question, Mr. Speaker, whether or not _ the first requirement of medicine should not take precedence over a dental programme. This is a matter for debate. But a dental programme obviously aimed at the children 1 ot the parents,is a much better vote getter than is an ordinary sensible folLow up of a regular medical progratmlle. This is why we get this sort of an announcement. In spite of that, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation whatsoever, because I am very familiar with similar circumstances in many other parts of the Province, I support the hon. member's petition.

I wish that he had presented it in the proper manner butJnevertheless,now that we have heard the proper explanation of it, I have no hesitation in supportin~ it. MR. E. M. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, in speaking in support of the petition, let me say I had hoped the hon. gentleman opposite will be willing to treat medical services other than in a partisan and quite contemptible and politically way - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Let me, Mr. Speaker, in supporting the petition,say one or two things. First of all, my friend and colleague the member from Bonavista South,for a good reason,did not want to read it.

This petition has been read, I will not have to read it. I was prepared to, except my friend,the ;'jack-jumps," from St. John,'s East,was on his feet and has read 4713

May 27, 1971 Tape 759 (morning) PK - 11 MR. ROBERTS: it to the House. He did not bother pointing out, Mr. Speaker, the letter which accompanied the petition,which I suggest was typed in an office in this building,on the ninth floor. I find it very interesting that Mr. Austin Maddocks is associated with a political party, a gentleman who took up the petition. MR. CROSBIE: There is no law against that. MR. ROBERTS: I am not saying there is a law against it, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker in supporting the petition,! am pointing out also copies went to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and,believe it or not, the member for Bonavista/Trinity Conception. Now, Mr. Speaker, I find this most interesting,that the mealy mouthed me~bers opposite all of a sudden become interested in medical services. The hon. member for St. John's West was Minister of Health for eight months. I know what he did for the people of King's Cove,nothing. I know exactly what he did for the people of King's Cove - MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: The hon. member might as well keep quite, I have listen and suffered and challenged him. r.et him listen and if he must suffer, let him suffer now. I know what the hon. gentleman did for the people of King's Cove and the people of Duntara, Mr. Speaker. I know that the hon. gentleman opposite, the member for St. John's East,when the Government announced in February we were going to expand the district medical practices, all of a sudden, all of a sudden he wraps himself in his cloak of sanctimoniousness and he becomes concerned, ~e is the one MR. CROSBIE: Hurrah, hurrah! MR.

ROBERTS: Ah~ took,saddle the unbraying ass, Mr. Speaker, and take him away. But Mr. Speaker, in speaking in support of this petition,let me say, as I announced in February- MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. 4714

May 27. 1971 Tape 759 (morning) PK - 12 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, do I have to listen to this inane, nattering chatter? Mr. Speaker. T let him speak in peace. Now, Mr. Speaker, whether the man is demented or not I do not know, but, Mr. Speaker, let him at least show some decency and common courtesy. I realize it may be an effort for him. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Let us continue the rest of this debate uninterrupted.

No matter who the person is speaking,for the balance of this day, let us make a little special effort to keep the debate within balance and within the bounds of reasonableness and,I would say~even decency. Let us keep it that way for the balance of this day. and if somebody wishes to interrupt, let him ask the Speaker,who will ask the person who is speakin~, if he will permit a question.and he will indicate whether he wishes to do so or not by either remaining on his feet or resuming his seat.

Now let us keep it like this for the balance of this day and tcy and keep some dignity and :semblance of order in this the people's House. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, I assume that the Speaker is going to apply that rule to both sides of the House1 MR. SPEAKER: Oh, yes. MR. CROSBIE: Even to the Premier? MR. SPEAKER: What is the point of order? MR. CROSBIE: The point or order is that the Speaker's ruling should be made applicable to both sides of the House •••• MR.

SPEAKER: Is the hon. member insinuating that the Speaker's ruling is not applicable to both sides of the House? Is that the insinuation? Because,if it is the insinuation, and I see it as it is, I will ask him to retract it right now or let the House deal with it. MR. ROBERTS: Take it back. MR. SMALLWOOD: Retract it. Take it back. He refused to take it back. Will Your Honour now suggest to the Hpuse what action we take? 4715

May 27, 1971 Tape 759 (mornin~) PK - 13 MR. SPEAKER: I have asked the hon. member, it is plain to me that the imputation made by the hon. the member for St. John's West is that the Speaker's ruling applies to one side of the House alone. I said, let the House refrain from breaking the rules and try and keep some semblanct of order of decency in this the people's House. I then, according to the hon. member's remarks,for St. John's West, his inference was that the ruling that I was going to make or I had made did not apply to both sides of the House.

I am asking him -the privilege of the Ho~se is being breached, when a person makes such a remark• I will ask him to retract it now or make his explanation. MR, CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, if you want an explanation, I will make an explanation, I say that I hope this will apply to both sides of the House. Now I have no intention of being kicked out by the hon. the Premier,in any little plot cooked up on the other side. MR. SPEAKER: Look, this is still out of order. You are still out of order. MR. CROSBIE: The Speaker asked me to make an explanation, and I am makin~ an explanation. MR.

SPEAKER: I am asking the hon. member now for St. John's West to make an explanation satisfactory to the Chair. Because it 4716

May 27, 1971 (Mmrning) Tape No. 760 NC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: is a breach of the privilege of the House to insinuate, even by the slightest insinuation, that the rules of this House apply to one side and not the other •. I ask for the explanation,to be satisfactory to me and to this House. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I certainly do hope that all rulings apply to both sides of the House. ~~SMALLWOOD: That is not satisfactory to the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. This is the very thing that I asked for. Let us have no interruptions and bantering back and forth across this House any more for this Sitting.

This is what I am asking. MB,. CROSBIE: Right. Let us see that it happens. MR. EA~!_:_ May I speak on a point of order, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Which point of order? MR. EARLE: The point of order that has been raised. I have a question now for the House. MR. SPEAKER: I have not heard anybody mention a point of order. MR. EARLE: Well I make a point of order, Mr. Speaker, an explanation of the hon. member's present position,which I think the House is entitled to feel justly was caused by last night's actions in the House. The feeling of this side of the House was that the rulings made at the closing of ••• MR.

SPEAKER: Order please! This is not the point of order, what happened in the House last night is not the matter that is before the House at the present time. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, may I explain what has led up to this situation? MR. SPEAKER: No. MR. CROSBIE: Why not abolish the Opposition? MR. SPEAKER: The situation in which we find ourselves now is that I have asked the hon. member for St. John 1s West-he has made the imputation that the Speaker's rulings in this House are for one side and not the other, and it will only apply to one side and not the other. That is the imputation.

He has given an explanation, and I said that the explanation must be satisfactory to the House. It is the privilege of the House that has been breached,in my 4717

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 760 NC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: opinion. Therefore, there has to be .. I have heard the explanation does the House accept it? MR. SMALLWOOD: No. Name the member Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: I will ask the hon. member, if he would,to - MR.

CROSBIE: There is nothing the Premier would like better than to have me expelled from the House so I completely retract an~ imputation or suggestion whatsoever that the rules do not apply to both sides of the House, completely and irrevocably,without any equivocation at all1 say that the rules of the House apply equally to both sides and any imputation of that is not so. I completely withdraw and retract. MR. SPEAKER: Will the hon. Minister of Health please continue. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you Mr. Speaker, Ae I was saying, we announced at the Development Conference that we were going to expand our services.

I can assure the House that one of the area,,and I think I announced that at the Conference by name I specified the King's Cove area, that part of Bonavista South District. when Father Beresford came to see me, it must be twelve months ago now, Your Honour, to discuss this, I assured him this was our aim. The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, the Government's housing agency,have been ordered to begin construction. Taese orders were issued three, four, five weeks ago, to begin construction of a doctor's residence at King's Cove. They are now ac.uiring the necessary land.

My own medical officials have been recruiting. \ (if we do not have any of what we had yesterday,for example,Your Honour.) A doctor we had recruited opened his mail and it was not a letter from any of his friends wishing him well, it was a letter which began: "Greetings, the President of the United States ••• " and that gentleman,I gather,is now on his way to Viet Nam or wherever the Armed Forces will be posting doctors they have drafted. But subject to that sort of problem, Mr. Speaker, there will be a doctor stationed in King's Cove this year. They say it has nothing to do with politics.

My friend, the mem~er for Bonavista South, has been after me consistently, for some time. Father Beresford came to see me,about a year ago,and we spent an hour or so discussing this, the need and the course that had to be taken. We have not been able to move before this, Mr. Speaker, because we have to maintain the basic cottage hospital service throughout 4718

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 760 NC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: the Province. In clos1ng 1Your Honour, may I again say that I am as willing ag any man to engage in political discussion but I do rather resent it when people,for partisan motives, try to drag in, into the mire of partisan politics, matters as important as the health of our people. We recruit doctors, Your Honour, whatever we can; any doctor who is qualified to practice in this Province, be he black or green or yellow or pink or orange or red or white, There is no limit on the amount of money available for doctors. If we can find a doctor~we will hire-him.

The House has voted authority to provide the housing that is necessary and so forth. So I do rather resent the cheap.partisan insinuations that all this is politics. It is not, Mr. Speaker. This is a matter of the health of our people. I would have thought that the hon. gentleman,who held the port folio of Minister of Bealth,would know some of the problems but apparently that seems to have escaped him in the heat of the debate. It is a matter of the health of our people,Your Honour, and I think that is much too important for any of this clap-trap that we have had here.

Anyway I do support the petition and I can assure the House and the hon. members, if it all works - •out as we expect it to, and we have every reason to expect it to, we will be having a doctor go to the King's Cove area at some point this swmner. People need his services and he will be there to help them. Thank you Sir. MR. COLLINS: After listening to the Minister of Health, one would think that all of us on this side of the House are opposed to medical facilities 1 wherever they might be in the Province.

This petition came to us, I suspect it came to the hon. member for Bonavista South, we Rad discussions with him1 as a courtesy. I repeat;as a courtesy. We figured that being the member for the district he should have the opportunity to present the petition and,of course 1 we also indicated that we would support it. To hear the tripe which has been coming from the other side this morning, because we are supporting a petition - MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, no hon. member from that side of the House ever did 4719

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 760 NC - 4 MR. BARBOUR: confer with me up to this moment, so help me God~ MR. SPEAKER: Order please. This is not a point of order. MR. BARBOUR: I have to defend myself. MR. SPEAKER: This is not a point of order. Continue. MR. COLLINS: However, Mr. Speaker, this is a very valid request from the people of Bonavista South, from King's Cove, Open Hall, Red Cliffe, Duntarra, Knight's Cove and some other places I have marked down but which I cannot remember (·that is beside the point) that is the general area.

I would suggest that the medical services available to those people are not too much different from what was available to Indian Islands, where I came from,when I was growing up. Where you.had to get a skiffand go to Twillingate. You had to get a punt and haul it through slob ice in the tickle in the winter time, if a woman happened to heed to be delivered. This is:what we have in Bonavista South. Granted they might not have to go to Bonavista by boat, they might not have to go to Bonavista by boat, they might not have to go to Clarenville by boat, but certainly the roads they have to go over are a disgrace.

Can the hon. member stand up and say that the roads are paved into Clarenville, that the roads are paved into Bonavista? Those people have had enough of this treatment, Mr. Speaker, and out of the desire to i~prove their lot, they decided to send a petition to this House. What is wrong with members on both sides of the House supporting a petition of this nature.? I would suggest;nothing,Sir. I would also suggest that the hon. Minister of Health would have had no statement to make this morning until this petition had been presented.

What I have seen coming from that side of the House,accusing us of being partisan and everything else,is a pile of nonsense and the quicker you forget that and get down to business, the better it will be for those people. On motion petition received. MR. JONES: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the people of Stag Harbour, Little Seldom, Seldom,on Fogo Island. The petition has been signed,by their own count, by 344 voters of these three communities and it has been forwarded to me by"Mr. Dan Roberts, Secretary of the Fogo Island Improvement Connnittee, 4720

May 27 • 1971 (Morning}. Tape No. 760 NC - 5 MR. JONES: The prayer of the petition is that the road through Seldom, Little SeldD.lll and Stag Harbour be upgraded during the coming season. They point out that this road is of a low standard to begin with and that the use of the road has increased now with the increased usage of the fish plant at Seldom and Joe Batt 1 s Arm and further by the use of a large sehool bus which has to go over it. The people, Mr.

Speaker, are a little bit annoyed,in Stag Harbour, with the fact that probably the only good gravel pit on Fogo Island is on the Stag Harbour Road and they see the gravel being taken from this pit and used,as far away, I believe,at one time, as Tilting. Their request is reasonable, Mr. Speaker, I support it and I trust that my colleague, the Minister of Highways, will,in his roads progrannne for Fogo Island this year, where we are doing some extensive quarrying and crushing for granular material  will be able to spare some to put on Stag Harbour Road.

I beg leave to place this petition on the table of the House and ask that it be referred to the Department to which it relates. MR, EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I should like to support this petition very stronglY, ltnowing some of the conditions on Fogo Island, I can well recognize the need of this petition 1 and the people in the area mentioned are certainly entitled to better road connections.

Undoubtedly Fogo Island has presented many problems to this Government and will continue to present them to other Governments, hut the people themselves have been most forward in helping themselves and they deserve the greatest consideration. The people of Fogo Island, I think.have set an example to many other sections of the Province. Certainly to carry on their day.to-day activities they need the most normal communication facilities, which,of course,in this case is roads. They have been,literally for centuries,without good roads on that Island.

We heard quite an expenditure being allocated for other sections of the Island,this year when the Highways road estimates were being discussed, but we did not hear of any particular money for that particular

section and, knowing the area and the importance of this particular

section of the Island 4721

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No , 760 NC - 6 MR. EARLE: to the whole economy of Fogo Island, they deserve the greatest consideration, In closing 1 in supporting this petition I would like to say that while this is of very much importance and should be given priority when considering Fogo Island, the same conditions apply to so many other areas of the Province that it is quite inconceivable that something of this nature be done for Fogo Island and that other parts of the Province be neglected.

So,while I hope that this is carried out by the hon.the Minister of Highways and his Department, I would also draw his attention to other sections which need equally as much attention and should get it. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in support of this petition from the people of Stag Harbour and Little Seldom. Certainly if there is anyone in Newfoundland who have had to meet almost overwhelming problems, overwhelming odds, it is the people of Fogo Island, down through the years, especially this past twelve or fifteen years. Those people, Mr.

Speaker, are not asking for a paved four.lane highway, they are asking for a highway which will pennit a school bus to run from Stag Harbour and Little Seldom to the new school which is now under construction, I believe 1 on the centre part of the Island, They are asking for suitable road conditions so that their trucks can move into the fish plant in Seldom and the fish plant in Joe Batt's Ann and Deep Bay.

Those people are asking for the facilities which other people of Newfoundland have been enjoying for years,on the Trans Canada Highway and other roads, I can appreciate that funds cannot always be found innnediately to solve all of the problems but certainly those people have waited long enough, they have endured enough• I hope that the member for the district, who Dappens to be the Minister of Finance, has been talking with the Minister of Highways. I do not know how sympathetic he is to it but I think that he is.

I have also heard that there is a possibility that the Minister of Ht2hways might be seeking election in that district,so certainly I would say that the people in Stag Harbour and Little Seldom have a real good chance,hopefully,of 4722

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 760 NC - 7 MR. COLLINS: getting their road work this year. MR. ROWE (F.W.): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support that petition presented by my colleague, the member for Fogo, I do so not merely for sentimental reasons, although I have very strong sentimental reasons for supporting it, I was not born on that Islanc but both my father and my mother came from two different settlements on the Island,in,one case Joe Batt's Arm and the other case Seldom Come By, probably two of the most famous place names,! think,in our entire Provincep To be still more personal 1 my grandfather was responsible,! believe,for founding one of the communities on that famous Island which is,among other things, the largest Island lying off the coast of Newfoundland.

I would like to support that petition for practical reasons as well. I do not think that an Island so large and so important as that Island has been in our economy in past years, should be written off.

That Island, I would judge, is nearly forty miles on the round, it is about ten miles across, I walked across it once,as a boy visiting there, and it is an Island that contributed a gre~t deal in the past, a great deal of wealth to Newfoundland, Of course the wealth has not merely been in the form of fish, because the Island has historic communities of Fogo and Tilting and Joe Batt's Arm and Seldom, historically 1 have made great contributions to the culture and the economy and indeed to the very life of Newfoundland. I believe that there is a future for that Island.

The population has remained fairly constant there. Not much less today, if any less, than it was twenty-five, thirty years ago, still about 4,500, I do not think the population on the Island itself ever. exceeded 5,000. The people have indicated -a tenacity and a determination which must arouse the admiration of everybody in this Province.

Anything that can be done, and a great deal has been done, let us be fair about this, a great deal has been done, There are new I think thirty-five miles of road, motorable road,on the Island, some of it not very good,of course. 'l':hat is thirty-five miles more of motorable roads th~n was there twenty years ago. There are other improvements as well, that I think the House must be aware of. Fogo Island has not been neglected, anymore than any other area with similar problems in Newfoundland has been 4723

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 760 NC - 8 MR. ROWE: neglected 1 but it does have very special problems and anythinr that this House can do and anything that the Government can do. and anything that the Province generally can do, to improve conditions on that Island,within reason, should be done. They are a fine people. They are a people that the rest of Newfoundland can be very well proud of,and I believe that Island and its people do have a future. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the prayer of the petition.

There is no question at all that the roads on Fogo Island should be improved and they leave a lot to be desired now, Mr. Speaker, it is always very interesting to hear the hon. Minister of Education speak on his family line and descendants. He has more connections with more electoral districts :on this Island than one would have thought possible. He claims connection with Lewisporte District, Fogo District, legitimateps the Minister of Health says, •• MR. ROWE: They are all legitimate. MR.

CROSBIE: Well it is alwavs interesting to hear that one of the Minister's forebearers was from Seldom Come By, because last night at the Press Club, the Premier was aaying how the Premiership almost came by the hon. gentleman opposite. He blamed the fact that it had not come by on the man who is speaking now, that is what is called re-writing history. the Premier is engaged on. This is re-write history that In connection with Fogo Island, Mr. Speaker. Fogo Island is surviving and increasing in prosperity now and,with hope, despite acts of ommission and acts of commission by the Government.

I think anybody that knows what has happened to Fogo Island in the last four or five years realizes that despite the lack of action by the Government, the people there made their own decision,that they were going to stay on Fogo Island and make a viable place of work and living on Fogo Island and that is what they are doing.with their own efforts. They have not forgotten ADA programme or the promised ARDA programme, they ha~e not forgotten the mini-FRED programme that the Premier went to Fogo Island to announce in 1967, when the Federal by-election was on. They do 4724

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 760 NC - 9 MR. CROSBIE: not forget that they wer e promised the first FRED pr~gramme in Canada, which was going to be a mini-FRED,which never m~terialized. I presume that they are now being promised,of course,even greater things, under the DREE programme. But despite the fact that they have had these disappointments Mr. Speaker, they have persevered. They have had some assistance and they are coming ahead and I hope that a decent road system will be one of the things that will be commenced on Fogo Island this year.

So I fully support the prayer of this petition and hope that the Minister of Highways will use some of the money,that we voted for him earlier in the week1 on the road to Fogo Island. On motion petition received. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS MR. ROWE (W.N.): Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question no. 552 on the Order Paper of Monday, May 10, 1971, asked by the hon. member for Fortune Bay. It is quite lengthly, Mr. Speaker, I will not even attempt to read it. I have two or three copies for members of the House who are interested. MR. STARKES: Mr.

Speaker, I have the answer to question no. 44, asked by the hon. member for Fortune Bay,on the Order Paper cf March 25, 1971,and I al•o have the answer to question no. 179,and question no. 423. I wish to table these answers. MR. MARSHALL: Refore we get to Orders of the Day, there is a question I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Health; has he yet reeeived a report,to which he referred last week,about the Chamberlains Pond and has any action been taken to date on it? MR. ROBERTS: Which pond? MR. MARSHALL: The Chamberlains Pond, Chamberlains Pond,in Conception Bay.

The Minister will recall we talked about it during the estimates and he said that a Division of the Department of Health was investigating it and they would be submitting a report to him shortly. 4725

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 760 NC - 10 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have not received that report ,as of five of ten this morning,when I left my room at the office. When I get a minute,! will find out where it is. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. C~OSBIE: On Orders of the Day, could the hon. the Premier bring the House up to date on the position of the Come By Chance wharf.

The Federal Government has announced that the Provincial Crown Corporation have agreed to guarantee repayment of the money to be spent on that wharf and also interest over a twenty-five year period, that is the Provincial Building Company Limited, and Provincial Refining Company Limited~ The last time the Premier spoke on the matter in the House, he was denying in effect that this was so. Does the Premier now confirm or deny that the statement made by Mr.

Lang,in the House of Commons yesterday.is correct and whether or not the Provincial Crown Corporation are about ready to enter into an agreement with the Federal Government'Z MR. SMALLWOOD: I could,of course,ask for notice of the question.but I hereby confirm what I have said right along and what Mr. Lang now confirms correct. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Development, is he now in a position to advise the House when the DREE programme might be signed. MR.ROWE: On that Mr.

Speaker, I can only say at the moment that the Government are presently awaiting some additional material to ~ome from the hon. Jean Marchand, Mini~ter of DREE, in the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion, Mr. Tom Kent told me on Thursday last that this was in the mail and I am expecting it daily, and this should expedite the signing of that agreement. We expect to sign it very shortly, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, could the Premier let the House know who is correct, whether it is Mr. Davis, the Canadian Minister of Fisheries,or the Premier, Mr.

Davis is quoted,in the Canadian Hansard of the House of Commons,as stating that in their telephone conversation several days ago he informed the Premier that the salmon fishing regulations were reasonable and that they would be 4726

May 27, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 760 NC - 11 MR. CROSBIE: enforced while the hon. the Premie-r has denied that statement. Does the lremier still deny what Mr. Davis has said,that he was told this in their conversation? Silence is golden. MR. HICKMl\N: Mr. Speaker. would the hon. Minister of Health, indicate to .the House whether he or his offi.cials have received a renewed complaint from the residents of Woodford, Holyrood in 4727

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Pagel -- apb Morning. MR, HICKMAN: connection with a nusiance being created by _a piggery and hennery in that area. HON. E.M.ROBERTS (MINISTER OF HEALTil): Mr. Speaker, surely this is a question for the Order Paper. I have received no such notice. To my knowledge~ my officials have not or,if they have, they have not told me about it. Surely, it is a question for the Order Paper.as the hon. gentleman knows. MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, one final question for the acting Minister of Municipal Affairs: Can he advise the committee of the status of the application from the people of Norris Arm with regard to incorporation, and also, from the to~m of Northern Arm? MR. ROBERTS: }~r. Speaker, surely that is a question for the Order Paper. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a question for the hon. the Premier.

Has the Government consulted with Bowaters and Price (Nfld.) Ltd. on the close downs, temporary close downs or shut down~ announced by both companies to take place this summer, and has the Government taken any steps to ascertain whether or not the financial position of those companies does dictate this slow-down or lay off during the summer?• MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR. CROSBIE: What were the results of the consultation? MR. SMALLWOOD: You will find out. MR. CROSBIE: When? MR. SMALLWOOD: In time. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. CROSBIE: In due course? MR. SMALLWOOD: Before the century is over. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR.

CHAIRM.AN (NOEL): Order! Heading (13), municipal Affairs and ' Housing, page (59). Shall item 1311-03-10 carry? MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Chairman, when we were ending up last night, I was discussing this item which is water and sewer syst:-ems. The vote 4728

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 2 -- apb Morning . is $2,350,000. At that time, Mr.

Chairman, I was pointing out to the House that the Government's policy in connection with the water and sewer- age · .. systems has been or at least was, unless it has been changed recently , that after a municipality constructs a water and se,.._erage system with the assistance of the Government,(usually it is by means of a guarantee of a bond issue) in most cases, the citizens of that particular municipality cannot afford to pay a sufficiently high water and sewage rate to meet the principal and the interest and the cost of operating the system.

So, the Government's policy has been that the Government itself pays a subsidy to the municipality concerned, to make up the difference, between what the citizens can be expected to pay, say, five or six dollars per month,per household, and what the costs are to meet principal and interest and the charges of operating the system. Those costs could be ten or twelve dollars per household , per month. The policy was Mr. Chairman, that the maximum subsidy that the Goverrun.ent would give was $75 thousand a year.

That maximum subsidy was the amount that the f.overnment would give in the Town of Windsor, the town that is in the district of the Minister of Education; that was the maximum. Then there was a sliding scale of the amount of assistance the Government would giveJup to $75 thousand, depending on the population of the town and so on. As I pointed out last night 1 Mr.

ChaiilT'An, that in answer to a question tabled in the House this year, question no.(253), it was shown that in the financial year, 1969 - '70, that ended M~rch 31,1970, the Town of Happy Valley was paid, in connection with its water and sewerage system,an amount of $147,832.52.

The question I asked was whether or not this was an annual subsidy being paid to the Town of Happy Valley or whether this _was an amount that had to be paid in that year because of some emergency that will not occur again. tn other words, if $147 thousand has to be paid each and every year,to the Town of Happy Valley, to help subsidize the water and aewerage systemthen that is twice the amount that is paid to all the other municipalities in Newfoundland. 4729

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 3 -- apb Morning. Windsor,for example 1 is $75 thousand. I think I gave some other figures from 1969 - '70, as to the sudsidies paid certain other systems. One was Bishops Falls, which,for example, in 1970, received a total amount of $71 thousand approximately,as a subsidy in its water and s~werage system.So, the question is, is this amount of money that was given to Happy Valley in 1969 -'70, an annual amount? Did it have to be paid in 1970 -'71, and on this amount of $2,350,000, will $147 thousand have to be spent this year, given to the Town of Happy Valley? Now }fr.

Chairman, the Town of Happy Valley had a very unhappy experience in the installation of water and sewage facilities in that community. There was trouble with the design of the water and g~werage system. There was trouble in the construction of it. The cost went up tremendously,due to all these problems. Now, my question is, due to all these increases in costs, does this amount of $147 thousand have to be paid each year? If not that amount, what amount was paid the Town of Happy Valley last year in connection with its water and sewerape systems? MR.

S}!ALLWOOD: $70 thousand on capital account, and the remainder was the ordinary annual amount. MR. CROSBIE: How much is that? MR. S~ALLWOOD: The difference between seventy and one hundred and thirty seven, or whatever the figure is. MR. CROSBIE: Apparently then, last year Mr. Chairman, $137 thousand was paid the Town of Happy Valley in connection with water and sewage systems. The Premier says an amount of $70 thousand for capital. That must mean that there are extra costs that the Town could not meet, and another amount totalling $137 thousand. Then, the next questionlMr.

Chairman, is; what has to be paid Happy Valley this year? How much is allowed for it in the estimates this year,to be paid to Happy Valley,in connection with the water and sewage systems? 4730

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 4 -- apb Morning. MR. SM_ALLWOOD: This $70 thousand is allowed to pay the cost of an extension to their system. There is no extension proposed this year, so there will be no capital grant for this year. Just the ordinary operating grant. MR. CROSBIE: How much is that? MR. S}f.ALLWOOD: $7 5 thousand. MR. CROSBIE: Well, then the policy still remains the same. The annual grant is $75 thousand. Mr. Chairman, if an amount of $75 thousand was spent from last year's vote,under this vote,for capital purposes in Happy Valley, the vote was wrongly expended.

This is a vote that, to me, it is not a capital vote; it is an amount paid to a municipality to help subsidize the cost of operating a water and sewerage system. It is not a vote that normally an amount, a capital expenditure,is spent out of. In other words, this $75 thousand should not properly have come from this vote last year,for capital purposes in the Town of Ha~py Valley. Apparently, the maximum subsidy is to be $75 thousand. Now in connection with the water and sewer systems generally, Mr.

Chairman, the Rouse will remember that in 1966, the Government instituted,against opposition from those who knew better, the Government instituted a water and sewer~ system subsidy to be paid to municipalities that had to do with the water and sewer rates of each municipality. In other words, if the people of Happy Valley, or Bishops Falls, or Windsor, or whatever the municipality,was,were paying water and sewer rates of six dollars per month per household, the Government instituted a scheme, under which the Government was going to pay twenty per cent of those rates.

This was widely advertised as the election came on. In fact to all of the municipalities concerned there went a letter from the Premier to the householder, advising them that from then on, from the fall of 1966 on, the GovernmentW1rI'e-going to pay twenty per cent of what that householder had to pay the Municipal Council. They were going to pay twenty per 4731

Y.ay 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 5 -- apb Morning. cent of their water and sewer rates,directly to the council,so that it would cost the householder twenty per cent less. In fact, as I remember the letter,(and I am sure that there are lots of them still around, I have one down in the office) it went further than that.

It said that it was going to be twenty per cent this year, 1966 - '67, and in the following years it is going to be advanced another twenty per cent~ ~o that all you lucky people who have water and sewer systems in your municipalities and have to pay water and sewer tax, you are goinl? to have twenty per cent of your tax paid by the Provincial Government, to help you along.

In fact, after the first year or two, we are f?Oing to increase that to forty per cent. 11 In 1968 or '69, I am not sure which.Budget Speech it was, but it was one of those years '68 or '69, in the Budget Speech of that year it was announced by the Government that the water and sewer subsidy that the Government was paying,in connection with each house­ holder, was eliminated - and the Government has not paid it for the last two years.

My question to the Premier now is this: Is the Premier going to reinstitute, or is the Government going to reinstitute this water and sewer subsidy of twenty per cent, or forty per cent,this year, and carry out the prog~amm.e that was connnenced in '66, and carry out the promises that were sent out in individual letters,from the Premier to each householder in these municipalities in 1966? Does the Government plan to reinstitute that subsidy this year or next year? We know that this is the year of increasingly loose money,~r. Chairman. We know that the tight money period is gone.

We know that money is becoming very, very loose\ very loose indeed, c,ould tbP Premier now tell the House whether the policy that he announced in '66, that was in effect for two years.is going to be reinstituted and these solemn promises carried outi MR. S}IALLWOOD: It will not be renewed this year. 4732

May 21, 1971, Tape 761, Page 6 =- apb Morning. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, on the details submitted in answer to a question, number (251), asked by the Leader of the Opposition, the Minister of Municipal Affairs indicated there are surveys which have been carried out or are in the process of being carried out in various municipalities throughout the Province to decide whether water and sewer systems should be installed. I understood yesterday, from a comment by the hon. the Premier that these surveys are in really two categories. There is the preliminary survey, followed by a detailed survey.

I would assume, therefore, when a preliminary survey is complete, that preliminary survey will give some indication as to whether the municipality can afford the system, whether the need is there and that it would tie in with the tax base of the municipality. MR. SMALLWOOD: Awfully warm! Gettit-1? warm! ~- HICKMAN~ May I direct the hon. minister's attention to the ••• MR. CROSBIE: To a Point of Order, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member does not mind. MR. HICKMAN: I do not mind. MR. CROSBIE: The hon.

Chairman was here when the Speaker, a few minutes ago 1 directed and laid down that there were to be no interruptions today. I am quite willing to abide by.that, if it is abided by on the other side of the Fouse. We have alread had interjections,con1111encing from the Premier now. If he is to be permitted interjections,there will be interjections from this side. That is all I am pointing out. MR. CHAIRMAN (NOEL): No hon. member shall interject while another member is speaking, as all hon. members know. MR. HICKMAN: Thank you Mr. Chairman.

May I direct the committees' attention to the answer to the Question, as it applies to certain municipalities.

(1) We had some debate on this yesterday, the Municipality of Lawn. There it is indicated that 4733

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 7 -- aph :Morning . a detailed survey is in progress, yet, at the same time, this Committee was told yesterday that tenders had been called and that the lowest tender was $387,000. as opposed to an estimate, which was given by the council prior to the survey,of $200,000. Surely Mr. Chairman, if tenders were called, the detailed survey must have been completed, otherwise, you c·ould never get a satisfactory tender. Now, I see the hon. former minister nodding his head. I can take it then that the detailed s~rv~y for the Town of Lawn has been completed.

That being so, will the Premier indicate to the Cot1D11ittee whether or not a water and sewer system will be installed in Lawn,commencing this year? MR. SMALLWOOD: The Government have not decided. We have a tender of $387,000., the lowest tender. We have another tender of $444,000. The amount that was agreed on was $200,000, and to increase it from $200,000 to $387,000 is an increase of $187,000 on that system. The Cabinet have, yet to decide whether to do so or not. Wb,en it is decided,the announcement will be made. As it has not been decided, the announcement cannot be made. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, if we may now proceed to Red Harbour. More than a year ago, there was a - at the last session of the House, in answer to a question tabled at that time, the then Minister of :Municipal Affairs indicated that a water and sewer system would be installed in Red Harbour. This year, in reply to a ouestion, there was an indication that the cost again had gone beyond exfectation. The information,furnished in answer to this same auestion that I referred to earlier, is that the detailed survey for Red Harbour has been completed by Engineering Services Limited, at a cost of $7 , 563.07.

Will the minister or the former minister indicate whether a water and sewer system will be installed in Red Harbour this year? MR. SMALLWOOD: The contract has been let. 4734

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 8 -- apb Morning. MR. HICKMAN· Will the hon. minister indicate the name of the firm to which the contract has been let, and the price. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, M.& M. Construction, at a price of $175,000. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, concerning water and sewa~e, just one question ••• MR. SMALLWOOD: That is C.C.M., not M.&.M. MR. EARLE: One question concerning water and sewer works. Last year on April 22nd. when the hon.

Minister of Community and Social Development made his statement 1 containing an announcement that $82 million was to be spent, ap~~nvimately $82 million, under the DREE agreement, he mentioned in these various water and sewer projects "the projects in St. John's and special areas, included servicec;l industrial park water and sewei works. In Corner Brook the projects include an industrial park, as well as road construction and water and sewer services. In other special areas, the projects are designed to meet,particularly, priority needs for schools and water and sewer services.

This morning I received the answer to a question, and I was just totting up the total of what was spent under the DREE agreement last year,on water and sewer services. According to this, unless my figures are wrong, it is approximately $1 million out of the $82 million that was promised. The total expenditure,as indicated by this answer,was only $13,000,800. anyhow. Actually these figures, there may be some things missing, but this figure here says $15,380,000 by way of loans and grants. That is correct.

The question which I ask~d, in the light of the fact that $82 million was supposed to be spent under this agreement last year. MR. ROWE (W.N.): There was never any indication that $82 million was to be spent last year. MR. EARLE: The statement was made that the $82 million agreement had been signed. 4735

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 9 -- apb Morning. MR. ROWE (W.N.): $42 million was the ceiling of expenditures last year. $82 million was committed by Ottawa. MR. EARLE: Be that as it may, the fact is that only $1 million was spent last year on water and sewer projects,with DREE money. This year we hear that $23 million or more is going to be spent on water and sewer projects. I should like to ask the acting minister what commitments have been made by DREE, for exactly how much money, to be spent this year on water and sewers.

Coupled with that, how much will the Provincial Government undertake to spend from its own fundspn water and sewerage? MR. SMALLWOOD: I will be able to tell the hon. gentleman that in a week or two. I cannot tell him today. I do not know. l-1R.. HICKMAN: While we are still on this itemi M.r. Chairman, there are a couple of other places I would like to hear Government plans on.

Again, in answer to the question that I referred to earlier, there is an indication that surveys have been undertaken by the Engineering Division of the Department of Municipal Affairs, which is a preliminary water and sewer survey for the areas known as Little Salmonier, Burin Bay Arm, and Salt Pond, Burin. Now, why I refer to that _ and why it is very relevant and goes to the very essence of this vote,Mr. Chairman, is that from time to time municipalities in this Province extend their boundaries and take in adjoinin~ communities. They do it in close consultation with the Department of Municipal Affairs.

I am sure the Department of Municipal Affairs very much encourage this. They have to approve it before the actual - the minister has to approve it or recommend it before the actual extension can take place. The advantage that accrues to the Government by having boundaries extended, is that the municipality relieves Government of some of the responsibilities for public services. For instance, in the unincorporated areas, it is either the local road board or the 4736

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 10 -- apb Morning. Department of Highways. Now, these services are assumed and the responsibility for it by the new municipality. This is as it should be, and this is how you get the kind of planning and control that is necessary for the orderly development of munJcipalities in Newfoundland. At the same time, when a municipality has to make this decision to extend its boundaries, obviously, it must be very conscious of the expenditure that must necessarily fall in order to provide the people in these new areas with water and sewer facilities as well as other municipal services.

In that Little Salmonier, Burin Bay Arm and Salt Pond area, this issue has been a very live one for the past several years. Sometimes it generated a great deal of controversy as to whether or not these people would vote to become part of the Town of Burin, and alternatively, whether the Town of Burin could afford to take them in within the boundaries. Last year a final decision was made and the decision was that they be incorporated within the municipality of Burin,and that has been accomplished. Rand in hand,with that decision, was the understanding that municipal services would be extended to that area.

When you realize that that area is really a ribbon development and it is a very expensive ribbon development,in that the houses are scattered along about five or six miles of highway, You can see that the cost of the municipality providing these services on its own is completely beyond its reach. I am sure that the former minister will agree that at a meeting with a delegation from the Town of Burin that there was an ~nderstanding reached, that funds would be made available following a survey to provide water and sewer facilities for what is known as the Burin Inlet Area. The hon. minister shakes his head.

If he shakes his head, I might as well tell him that there is no member of the Burin Town Council that has that understnading. I know that representations are still being made, and obviously, the survey was 4737

May 27, 1971, Tape 761, Page 11 - apb 1-forning. carried out as a result of these representations to have water and sewer facilities extended to these three communities,which now form part of the municipality of Burin. This Question was answered March 29th. I think, and as the preliminary survey was then completed or under way, I would apprecjate the hon. Premier indicating to this Committee, (1) the estimated cost of this project,as a result of the preliminary survey. (2) will water and sewerage facilities be extended to these three communities this year, or work commence this year?

MR. ~.ALLWOOD: We will tell the hon. gentleman a little later on. We cannot tell him today. MR. CROSBIE: That is tremendously interestini information,Mr. Chairman. A very full report on that question: ~Be able to tell the hon. gentleman later on.• There are several other areas that are quite important. MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not say later on. MR. CROSBIE: Later on, yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not say later on, I said "a little later on." MR. CROSBIE~ My lips are sealed to interjections. 4738

Extract from Hansard, May 27, 1971 .Taoe . 762. oaq~ 1. Morning. MR. CROSBIE: Now,Mr. Chairman, I will not tolerate interjections today. Hr. Chairman, there are several other areas that I would like some information on. One is the Placentia area. The Placentia Town Council has been endeavouring,for at least the last five years,to have improvements made to their water system in the town of Placentia itself. In fact, they were in to see the department when I was the minister and that was in 1966 - 67. The town of Placentia presently has a water supply, but a water supply that cannot be expanded upon.

I think the water comes across the harbour from the other side, from Larkin's Pond. Anyway, there is a heavy demand on that water and the town of Placentia badly needs a water supply. There have been quite a few studies done as to an alternate water supply. As far as I know, up to the present time there has not been any work commenced on a new water system for the town of Placentia.

I remember reading several weeks ago that in the committee at Ottawa,discussing the future of the Placentia area, it was said that one of the reasons why it was very difficult to attract industrial or economic development to the Placentia - Argentia area was the fact that there was not a good supply of water in that area for industrial or other purposes, and that this was one of the main impediments to this Federal CoDDnittee (I have forgotten the name of the committee now they have set up for ••• ) MR. HICKMAN: The Task Force. MR. CROSBIE: The Task force for the Argentia area. Dr.

Page, Anvway this was one of the impediments. We understand, at least I understand that the Government are trying to attract,as one would expect, business or industry to the area. In fact, the Premier said the other day there was a ship from Israel, an oil drilling ship~going in there,which one assumes is going in there for some purpose, to have some work done or to use it as a base of operation. It is very important that the water system, I suppose not only of Placentia, but of the whole area,be improved,if at all possible, for these reasons.

I wonder if the Premier could bring us up to date as to what the situation is at Placentia,on their need there for a water system, and whether any money is to be spent this year and the possible cost of same? 4739

Extract from Hansard, May 27, 1971 . Tape 762, Page 2 -- apb Morning Hon. J.R.Smallwood (Premier): This matter is under very active consideration by the Government, under very active action by the Government. In our consultation with DREE, and with the Government of Canada generally, as the committee knows Ar.gentia, Freshwater, Jersey Side, Dunville, Fox Harbour, Point Verde, all that area has not as yet been designated a special area under the DREE plan and is,therefore,not entitled area entitled as a special/would be entitled to receive infrastructure grants or loans.

The job that is to be done 1will cost a minimum of $1 million to do. Obviously, while we have an active hope and an active expectation that that area will be designated a special area under DREE, which if it happened would entitle it to special financial considerations by DREE, the Government are not hurrying to announce the calling of tenders or any other overt action of that kind. We hope to be in a position and we hope more than anyone in the world except for the people who live there, except for them, we hope more than anyone hopes that we will be in a position to do so, MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, with regard to water and sewer programmes in DREE areas, in the area of Central Newfoundland; the town of Botwood has made a submission requesting water and sewer extensions in the town, which are badly needed. There are sections of the town, even older sections, without sewer, other sections without water and sewer. The town of Bishops falls has made similar requests for the completion of servicing to the households in the community. The town of Gander has made a submission for an entirely new water system.

They are presently purchasing water from the Department of Transport,at a cost of $90 thousand per year. They have the idea that with a new system they could possibly sell to the D.O.T. and they have made a submission for an entirely new water system for the town. There is a submission in here from the town of Glenwood,for an extension to water and sewer systems. There has been an indication, I was going to say a promise, maybe I can say a promise made to me~that a survey will be carried out in the town of Appleton 1for a new water and sewer system. 4740

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 3 -- apb Morning. There is a need for an extension in Peterview, and a submission has been made on that. All of that area falls within the DREE areas and they have designated it area no. (1) of Newfoundland. Can the acting minister tell me if those plans have been approved and submitted to DREE? What the status of it is with DREE? If there is no chance of DREE acknowledging that those are dire needs and that they will finance them, is the Province considering financing those porjects? MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, the work at Bishops Falls is proceeding. MR.

COLLINS: That is the water supply, that is not the sewerage. MR. SMALLWOOD: The construction is going ahead now in Botwood. The position is as follows; Botwood is in a DREE area, DREE area no. (3), and is therefore eligible 1in principle,to financial help from the Government of Canada. They need about $300 thousand to do what has to be done in Botwood. The Government have put that to DR.EE. We have not as yet received an undertaking by DREE to provide money nor any money nor any part of that money for that purpose for Botwood. We have not as yet received any assurance from DR.EE.

The position at Botwood is that DREE or no DR.EE, even if DREE had never been heard of, Botwood is in a position to perform this work,with the normal help that the Government of Newfoundland gives anyway. Even without DREEI 1f this must be done it will be done. If the only way they can get their service in Botwood is to do it in the normal way, with the normal Newfoundland Government help, we will give that help and the job will be done as a result. If it can be done through DREE, that is even better, because it releases that much money of the Newfoundland Government to be spent elsewhere.

We do not propose,wherever we can get DREE,(I apologize to the House for my strained voice. I have been told that there are a lot of colds going around hitting the throat. I never had a cold in my throat before. I hope it is not cancer, I am sure the Opposition also hope that it is not cancer. I hope they join with me in great sympathy, hoping that I do not have the beginning of cancer of the throat. So, I apologize for the strange sound that is coming out throughJ 4741

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 4 -- apb Morning. We obviously, very obviously, I do not think it is a matter for argument nor disagreement. We obviously want to get from DREE all that we can get to spend in this Province, whether it be for roads and water and sewer systems, schools, paving or parks or anything else. We want to get all that can be had from DREE, to be spent in this Province. The more that can be had from DREE,in DREE areas or special areas, the more money we will not have to spend in those areas and>therefore, money we will have left to spend in the non-special areas.

We would prefer to get this money for Botwood from DREE but,if not, then we will back Botwood ourselves. That should be good for at least six speeches more. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, and what I just said should be good for at least six speeches, and I answer and then six more speeches in reply. MR. CROSBIE: Who has the floor here? MR. EARLE: ¥-r. Chairman, I am not going to try to buck that in any way, I just want to ask a question.

In light of the answer which I received from the acting ~.inister of Supply,which was most unsatisfactory, because it indicated that he did not know what the future commitments would be for expenditure this year, which would automatically indicate that the amounts we are voting may be completely wrong t.Jiis House may well be asked for supplementary supply of very substantial amounts,later on, because these amounts may not be included. Actually, if DREE supplies money, so much of it is by loan and so much by grants; so the Provincial Government will have to find a certain proportion.

Quite apart from that, last year,when this announcement was made, there were included in it,for water and sewage systems,projects totalling $8,000,473.00. It is true,as the hon. Minister Qf Community Services announced, that this agreement has until June 30, 1972 to be completed. I would like to ask rhe hon. acting Minister of Supply - of Municipal affairs-just what projects have been approved by Ottawa and what do they total at this stage. If he cannot give the answer as to what 4742

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 5 -- apb Morning. we may expect in the future; what is the present commitment in total?, Because I see a list here of a number of places such as Arnold's Cove, Port au Choix, industrial park sewer, and a number of others. I would like to know 'ihich of these are being approved and when we can expect them to be completed~ MR. SMALLWOOD: If the hon. member is asking me to give him the names of the water and sewer projects that have been approved in the sense that they have been approved publicly, I can only say that this has already been announced.

All of these names have been announced and they are well know to the House, to the Committee. If he is asking me to give him the names of the projects that are to be in the new DREE agreement, I fear I cannot do it. I could do it but it would not be proper until that agreement is signed and Ottawa has the privilege of making the amnouncement at the same time that we make it. What is to be done in the new DREE agreement will be announced in due course and will be announced by my hen. colleague,the Minister of Community and Social Development. MR.

EARLE: Pardon me, may I ask which one of last year's lists have been accepted by Ottawa? The $8 million,.which I mentioned, which ones have been accepted and approved by DREE? MR. SMALLWOOD: Which ones? I do not understand the question. Is he asking me, of those that have been accepted,how many have been accepted? Of those that have been accepted,the number that has been accepted is all. MR. EARLE: What are the places? MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not un~erstand his question, I am sincere. If he would make the question a little clearer perhaps, You know,st~nned and stupid,as I am, then perhaps I may understand it. MR.

EARLE: I am quite sincere also,Hr. Chairman., The projects which have been announced as being included in last year's agreement were trunk sewer, Mount Pearl, water supply,Mount Peatl, trunk sewer,Mount Pearl, these are different amounts, sewer .•• MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman, if he will allow me, he is not really asking about DREE projects at all,is he? Some are DREE and some are not. 4743

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 6 -- apb MR. EARLE: These are all included in the DREE projects of last year. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, they are going ahead. MR, EARLE: These are. Now there is a list of about twenty of them which were announced last year. All I am asking is, which of these have definitely been accepted and approved by Ottawa, by DREE? MR. SMALLWOOD: All, without exception. MR. EARLE: I do not think so. MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh'. Then which one? s·ame one? What one has not? MR. EARLE: Can the hon. minister name the places7 MR. SMALLWOOD: No, the hon. gentleman name the place that has not. We have named them all.

Name the one that is not. MR. RICKMAN: Port au Choix. MR. SMALLWOOD: Port au Choix is agreed, and going ahead, accepted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no, no, no. MR. COLLINS: Is ArnoldTs Cove? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, yes. MR. EARLE: Bishops Falls? MR. SMALLWOOD: Name one that is not. We say they all have been, now name one that has not. AN HON. MEMBER: Port au Choix. MR. EARLE: I will put it this way, is the trunk sewer for Mount Pearl approved? MR. HICKMAN: And going ahead? MR. SMALLWOOD: Look, excuse me! I will not be cross-examined in this way. I will not. I say all have been. Now, name one.

If the hon. gentleman knows of one that has not,name it. MR. EARLE: All right; Port au Choix. MR. CROSBIE: Port au Choix,Mr. Chairman. MR. SMALLWOOD: Port au Choix has been. There is a hitch, but it has been. i.t .has been agreed in principle but there is a hitch at the moment. MR. CROSBIE: Right. This is a question of semanti~s , Mr. Crairman. It is quite right when the Premier says these are approved in principle, but there 4744

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 7 -- apb Morning. is a big difference between being approved in principle and actually approved to go ahead, because, as the House knows,we have been discussing this for the last several days and it was discussed yesterday in the case of Lawn. Approval in principle means that there has been a preliminary study done and at a certain estimate DREE agrees, the Federal Government agree to the project as well as the Provincial Government. What happened in Port au Choix was that the prices we~e found to be too high. It is going to cost considerably more than the original estimate.

Now Port au Choix is approved in principle, but it is not approved in fact, because the tenders were called, the prices were too high, now they have cut out the sewer and are only going to put water. They have had to cut back on that .• So for the Premier to say that all those projects are approved and so on,is misleading. They are not, there is trouble in the carrying out of some of them. While I am on my feet Mr.

Chairman ," O!!_. the question of Placentia, the Premier says that the Government hope that Placentia will be declared to be a special area and then DREE will assist in the water supply situation in Placentia. How long can the Government wait,Mr. Chairman, to have the Federal Government declare a special area? We know that the Government of Canada refused last year to declare it a special area. We know that they have refused to declare Placentia a special area,up to now.

We know that Placentia and that area needs an expanded water supply system or they will have no industrial development there, no expansion there. How long is the Government going to wait on DREE? In the case of Placentia, their first application for this expanded water system was made at least in 1966 and certainly in 1967 •. That is four or five years ago. The Premier says that the system will cost $1 million, but how long can the Province wait on Ottawa? I mean; we know from Mr.

Marchapd that a special area is an area that they consider has particular economic advantages,that can be developed economically;and they refuse to include ~lacentia. Has the Premier some indication from the Government of Canada 4745

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 8 -- apb that the Placentia area may be declared a special area soon? Because, do not forget that the phase out of the American Base in Argentia, that commenced a year and a•half ago, certainly a year ago, all of a year ago. There is very little happening there since. The special committee, despite the best efforts of Mr.

Walter Carter,the Federal Member for the area, This special task force has done very little, so can the Premier indicate - can the Premier say,for example ,that if Ottawa does not agree, within the next month,to consider the Placentia area a special area, that the Government will be going ahead with an approved water supply system for the Placentia area? MR. SMALLWOOD: We are not that stupid. MR. CROSBIE: How would that be stupid? MR. SMALLWOOD: I will tell you when the hon. member sits down. MR. CROSBIE: All right, fine, I will let the hon. the Premier deal with that point. MR.

SMALLWOOD: No, make the speech and I will answer all the ••••• MR. CROSBIE: No, it is not a speech, just an enquiry now, and the Premier is going to tell me all about it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, we have pressed the Government of ·,Canada to designate a number of additional special areas. One of them is the Placentia - Argentia area. They have not, as the hon. member who just sat down said, refused, The Governmeu~ of Canada have not refused our request for any of the additional special areas. They have not refused. They have not acceded but they have not refused. They have not said no.

They have only failed now to accede. They have made a very strong point of that,in their talks with us, that they are not refusing. True they are not acceding~ yet, not this year, True they are making the point that they would rather see progress within the special areas that have been designated before they designate additional special areas, which is a rather good point,,~ather practical and rather sensible. In other words, instead of having more 4746

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 9 -- apb Morning. than eight special areas,which is the present number operating, they would rather see the eight operate successfully and conclusively, not finally and not definitively, but conclusively 1 before they begin designating more. Now, the reason we would be stupid as a Government to announce that we are going ahead with the water and sewer programme in Placentia or announce that if DREE does not designate that areaas a special area we will go ahead, is that this would be a direct invitation to Ottawa, almost an incitement to Ottawa not to designate it.

"What need have we to designate it? If the GovernMent are .able to do it without us, let them go ahead and do it." This is why it would be unutterably stupid of us and so we do not propose to do that. I think that is the only point the hon. gentleman mentioned. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, to me the Premier's answer is unutterably stupid, not wise. Here is an area of this Province that is depressed because of the close down of the American Base that occurred a year ago. Is that now to be left withering on the vine,when this Government is spending a record amount of money this year?

The Government is spending in excess of $500 million,a record budget. We all remember how we saw the Premier deliver the Budget Speech. It was marvellous, it was magnificent, T1ght money had disappeared and $517 million or whatever it was was going to be spent, and this is so many tens of millions over last year's spending. Where is the spending for the Placentia area? The Premier says that there is a water and sewage programme of $23 million, most of which is coming from DREE. How can the Placentia - Argentia area wait while the Federal Government sees if the work done in the eight special areas is satisfactory?

That might be a year, that might be two years. Those eight special areas were only set up a year ago. The work in those is only commencing now. We will not know for four or five years how successful that work was~nor how much economic activity it generated. Is the Placentia - Argentia area to wait all this year,,all next year and all the year after for the Federal Government to designate the area as a 4747

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 10,-- -· apb Morning. special area? Have we not a Government of our own? Is it not the responsibility of the Government of Newfoundland to look after Newfoundland also, not just the Government of Canada? Why should we have to wait on the largesse of the Government of Canada? Why should the Placentia - Argentia area have to wait on that? Have we no money of our own at all? Must we always be beggers ' on the doorstep of Ottawa, with our tongues hanging out~ asking for special areas and this, that and the rest of it? Is this a Government or is it the beggars'opera?

Why does not the Government take some steps - look at the glowing new programmes we heard talked about in this House the day the great dental programme, this programme, that programme. l.:hat I am saying . is that the Placentia - Argentia area needs an improved water system or it can have no basis for industrial development or expansion. This Government is like a lap dog, begging Ottawa to declare the Placentia area a special area,when it has a responsibility of its own. We have been a year now~ They did not declare it a special area last year.

They have not declared it a special area yet this year, And the Government - if the Government started a water and sewage system in Placentia and the area was then declared a special area,the Government could get help from DREE then. What the Premiers is saying is that, unless Ottawa listens to my pitious pleads for the . Placentia area , to be made a special area, Placentia is never going to get its improved water system. Why is the $1 million for the Placentia water system not included in this great programme that we hear about? That is the question.

We are like lap dogs, waiting for the great uncle up in Ottawa to drop us down another special area. Well the people in the Placentia - Argentia area are not going to be satisfied with that,you can depend on it. They have waited now a year and a few months, and have seen darn little. They have seen their federal member for the area attacked and vilified by the Premier,because he tries to speak up and point out how unsatisfactory that task force is. It is useless to speak any more on it, because the plea A"'JASt .... -

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 11 -- apb Morning. is falling on deaf ears. If this Government were not so far in the hole .-this Government is so far in the hole it cannot see the daylight ·­ we would be spending some of the Governments own money at Placentia now, not waiting around>with our paws out>waiting for Ottawa to declare another special area. The lap-dog Government, the lap dog, ri,ght on the lap of Ottawa, hoping that Ottawa will save it ,because of the millions that are wasted. They are beggars on ho_::seback. If they are beggars on horseback they are facing the wrong end of the horse. Now Mr.

Chairman, it is no good to say any more about Placentia, it is falling on deaf ears, The ears of deaf ears. There are two other questions I have on this water and sewage and one is the Catalina area and the other is Port Union. Catalina and Port Union, or Catalina,in any event there was a waterline put in I believe to the fish plant there under - it was not a DREE programme but ADB. There have 'been so many of these ADB 's ,as I said last night, there is AIDA, ARDA, ADB, DREE, FRED, mini-FRED, maxi-FRED. There are all kinds of those programmes, but. anyway this was ADB. A waterline ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: MR.

CROSBIE: a nonperson. Order please! Oh, that is right. no interjectio~s. Anyway, that was In any event,Mr. Chairman, Catalina and Port Union have been trying for three or four years now to get a water and sewerage system for the towns. I am not sure what the status of it is now, but I was speaking to a man from Catalina several days ago,who told me that there is no water and sewer system yet in either Catalina or Port Union. Perhaps , there is part of a system~ Could the Premier just explain what is the position now in Catalina and Port Union? I think that is a DREE area.

I am not sure of that, but in any event could the Premier outline for us what the position is there? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, It is not in a DREE area, it is one of the areas that we have asked the Government of Canada to designate as a special area. The Bonavista Peninsula, the Baie Verte Peninsula, the Southwest 4749

May 27, 1971, Tape 762, Page 12 - apb Morning . C.oast, running from Port aux Basques.-Channel to Burgeo,I think.dt is~ the Placentia - Argentia area. We have asked to have these designated as special areas and they have not as yet been so designated. Catalina, Port Union, and the· much larger town that the h~n. member did not mention, Bonavista,are three ateas that are badly in need 4750

May 27, 1971 Tape no, 763 Page 1 - MRW Mr, Smallwood, very badly in need of water and sewer systems, I would say that the Town of Bonavista, well.more than either of the other two, more than most pat ts of ,;.he Provii.'l.ce • :ts desperately in need of a water and sewer system, However, those towns are in an area which has not yet been designated a special area .. ~o we may not look for DREE money for that purpose, We may not 1in the sense that we may not legally,that there is no money for it from DREE, We can ask, Anybody can ask and get no for an answer.

The Government have under very active consideration this problem of Port Union, Catalina and Bonavista. We hope to make an announcement shortly.

We have already made an announcement privately, We hope to make on8publicly before long, Do not ask me how long is long or how short is shorq "before long," Now I will not dignify the hon, gentleman's gracious speech, his gracious and impartial,subtle speech, I will not dignify that with a reply except to point out a slight inconsistency in it, He said in the same speech-,and this is speech number five so far today, He said in it that the Government, you know, are rolling in money, "Why cannot you give Placentia their million dollars?

Why cannot you give somewhere else their millio~ and someone else their half million and someone else their two million? The Govemment are rolling in money, They are going to spent $500 millinn this year,n That is in the one breath, In the other breath he says that the Government are so far in the hole that they cannot even see daylight, Well, how can we be spending $500 million? How can we have the grea~est year in the history of this Island in almost 500 years. how can this be the greatest year of all our lives, of all our history, if we are so far down in the whole we cannot even see dayligh~?

I do not think it is even good politics, I think it is just stupid, just stupid, MR, CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I want to clear up that point that the Premier does not understand, He does not understand that point, I think it is very understandable, ,, This is how this can happen, The Government are spending in excess of $500 million,~the Premier says, 'i:t is going to be the greatest year ever~Hthe Premier says, Then the Premier says that it is inconsistent to 4751

May 27, 1971 Mr. Crosbie Tape no, 763 Page 2 say that the Government are so far down the hole that they cannot see daylight. Well I will explain how that is. This is "election year" so the Government have to pretend for purposes of the election that it is the biggest year yet, The $500 million of spending, of course, involves the borrowing, of $154 million - $56 of which is to repay borrowings which had to be rolled over and $98 milli0n tc, balance the budget, So first is the borrowing of $100 million, Now how can the Government be doing this and then still be down the bottom of a pit?

Because the Government have borrowed in the last few years, since 1966-1971, in excess of $600 million,directly and indirectly, So that the Government now have a debt 1 direct and indirect, of over $1 billion, All the same, the Government are getting further and further down in the hole, This year, election year, it has to pretend that that is not so and that it has all kinds of money. to spend.

Now if the Government really had all kinds of money to spend, if •the Government had the credit rating left to borrow $200 million this year or $250 million this year, it would, It has the gall to do it, It has the recklessness to do it, It has the financial irresponsibility to do it.

But even the Government cannot get away in one year now,with our credit record,and borrow $250 million, So the Government have to turn down Placentia, The Government have to turn down Catalina, The Government have to turn down Bonavista, The Government have to get up on its hind legs andplea~ to Ottawa to create special areas, MR, CHAIRMAN: Order please~ MR. CROSBIE: I am just answering the Premier's points, I am going to ue very humble today, Mr. Chairman.

I accept your admonition, I will just end up by saying this,that what the Premier says is that Catalina and Port Union have not gotten anywher~ so far in their search for water and sewerage systems nor ba~ Bon1;1vista. They are waiting for special areas to be declared, The Government will have an annoancement to make later. As the Government get closer and closer to that election date, it gets 4752

May 27, 1971 Tape no. 763 Page Mr. Crosbie: more and more desperate, No matter if it has to borrow or try to borrow $200 million, it is going to include Bonavista, Port Union and Catalina 3 and probably Placentia. That is what the Premier means. He is telling this privately down there. Very good! Very good! The Premier will not be around to have the consequences of his own fiscal irresponsibility tumble in. MR, SMALLWOOD: Premier Crosbie will be there. MR. CROSBIE: No! Frankie Baby, Frankie Baby! MR. SMALLWOOD: Frankie Baby? MR.

EARLE: thought Mr, Chairman, just one final question, At the risk of being extremely stupid, I still have not got a satisfactory answer to my question, I will try to put it as clearly as I can. Take one case alo~. We will take,say, Arnold's Cove. engineering studies been completed? Has this project and all the MR, SMALLW6OD: The work is going ahead, The contract has been awarded and the work is being done, MR. EARLE : Has the contract been finished and approved by Ottawa? MR, SMALLWOOD: Yes the work is being done, Does that apply to all others? MR, EARLE: _MR.

SMALLWOOD: Practically all others, May I answer again? Let me answer once more. There are twenty. Eighteen of them are going ahead. Two of them are not in progress because there is a little technicality. One· is Holyrood and the other is Port au Chaix, T;he reason •for the technicality is the fact that the bids that have been submitted by contractors or would-be contractors are exorbitantly high. Neither we nor Ottawa are prepared to accept such high bids, That is the only technicality. All twenty are approved.

Eighteen are going ahead without a hitch, Two have a hitch, I name the two and I have named the nature of the hi~ch, This hitch will be remedied. MR. HICKMAN: One more question, Mr, Chairman, and that relates to the water system in Grand Bank; Several years ago,when ADB was functioning, there was very strong representation made to ADB,and I think the representations 4753

May 27, 1971 Tape no, 763 Page 4 Mr.

Hickman. were approved, I know the late Mr, Ross Young was very heavily and actively involved in it as were officials from the Department of Municipal Affairs, The problem Lhat had arisen in that town was that because of the growth in population, the strain on the system just could not take care of all the domestic needs, The town in the meantime had supplied a water line to the fish plant, The proposal was that as we had relieved you of your responsibility, ADB, to provide the water line to the fish plant, will you in turn provide sufficient funds to enable us to install a gravity fed system in the townl We certainly were under the impression that this was going to be done, In the meantime,as a temporary measure and not to replace the gravity fed system 1 a new water tower had to be erected last year,as a replacement for the one that was in the state of collapse, The question on the Order Paper, 398, where I asked the Minister of Municipal Affairs whether Government had agreed to make the necessary grants ,or loans,to the Grand Bank Town Council.to permit the installation of ··a gravity-fed water system at Gtand Bank I The answer, given by the then Minister of Municipal Affairs,was:"No, the engineering studies of the gravity-fed system did not prove it was practical ·," Now this answer was made public and this brought an immediate public statement by the Mayor of Grand Bank.who took the position and took it based on engineering reports and designs: The engineering studies do indicate that a gravity-fed system for Grand Bank is not only necessary and essential but it is practical and engineeringly possible, The tbea Minister of Municipal 1ffairs back-tracked a bit on that later and . so far we seem to be i~ a state of confusion.

What I would like to know now is: ''Will Government make the necessary grants to the Grand Bank Town Council? MR. SMALLWOOD: Confusion, MR. HICKMAN: Will Government make the necessary grants to the Grand Bank Town Council to install the gravity-fed system,and when? 4754

May 27, 1971 Tape no, 763 Page 5 MR. SMALLWOOD: Let me put the hon. gentleman out of his confusion, if that is humanly possible. I am not a miracle worker. MR. HICKMAN: I realize that. MR, SMALLWOOD: The cost of the project would be about $385,000, Ottawa made an offer to share half that cost with the Town Council• the Town Council to pay half and Ottawa to pay ha~f. The Town Council hesitated,more or less, and said~ no. With this result,and not only did they say no but we, for our part, joined with them heartily in our representations to DREE, to Dr.

Garnet Page whose name was mentioned earlier in connection with Placentia, the Placentia Task Force •. Dr, Garnet Page is not just a Placentia Task Force man, He is very high in the councils of DREE at Ottawa It was because he was so high in the councils of DREE at Ottawa that Ottawa appointed him to the Task Force in Placentia, But the Task Force in Placentia is really, relatively speaking,only a small part of his functions and his responsibilities. A large

part is in onher directions altogether,including the question of the problem at Grand Bank.

Dr, Page made the offer to the Town Council of Grand Bank,of sharing fifty/fifty in the cost of doing that project for which cost was estimated at $385,000, When the Town Council and the Newfoundland Government joined in a demurrer (If that is the word) to Ottawa, Ottawa said, " all right, we will send an engineer down,"' The engineer is due here shortly to join with an engineer of the Newfoundland Government and the two engineers are to 'take a new look at it, We are now discussing with \ Ottawa the possibility of making an eighty/twenty or a seventy-five/twenty-five deal, a.. deal under which Ottawa would pay eighty per cent or maybe seventy-five per cent of the cost, the Town Council would pay twenty or maybe twenty-five.

We hope to have results from that and when we have them 1we will be glad to notify all people concerned, MR. HICKMAN: B~fore we get off that item,that only answers the financial difficulties and negotiations with Ottawa on the fifty/fifty deal, the other position has not been clarified and that is as to whether or not a gravity-fed system for the Town of Grand Bank is engineeringly possible. It was indicated 4755

May 27, 1971 Tape no. 763 Page 6 Mr. Hickman. in answer to a question that it was not. MR. SMALLWOOD: No it is not possible to put in a wholly gravity-fed system. It can be at best only a partially gravity-fed system. _MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, just before we carry it, would the Premier tell us whether or not it is possible for the St, John's ~unicipal Council to obtain some assistance for the provision of water and sewerage in certain areas of the municipality, City of St. John's? I am thinking particularly of the area MR. SMALLWOOD: Make the question more specific. MR. HICKEY: I am about to do that, Mr.

Chairman, if the Premier will just wait a minute. His throat is bothering him today. MR. SMALLWOOD: Pardon~ MR. HICKEY: He has gotten what I had yesterday. I am thinking particularly of the area of Quidi Vidi Road, Call it what you like hut just give them water and sewerage and I will go along with whatever you say. There are twelve families, Mr. Chairman, without water and sewerage and which, particularly water, they are very, very interested tn. They have approached the City Council and they tell those people that it costs approximately $12,000 per family to get a water line down there. The City Council, Mr.

Chairman, of course,do not have any money to put in a water line, They have spent it all on their elaborate City Hall. They are not to interested in such things as water and sewerage. I am wondering, Mr. Chai-rman, with all the money that is flowing around from the DREE Programme and from the cost- sharing programmes of the Federal mid Provincial Government)if there is not some way that those people can be assisted? The City Council have stated that they cannot enter into an arrangement to have this situation corrected. It would cost approximately $120,000 ·or somewhere near it.

It is a separate area from the general area of Signal Hill and the Battery. It is an area un- to itself. I feel, Mr. Chairman, that there is a great need here. The City Council continues to give permits to repair homes, to renovate homes. So they 4756

May 27, 1971 Mr. Hickey. Tape no, 763 Page 1. certainly are not trying to close out the area and yet they eannot or will not provide water and sewerage. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR, HICKEY: MR, SMALLWOOD: At $10,000 a family for water and sewerage, $12,000. At $12,000 a family for water and sewerage. I do not know the answer to the hon, gentleman's question.

It was not sufficiently specific, St, John's is in a special area, It is special area number one 1which extends from St, John's northward, so to speak, to Carbonear, to include Carbonear and southward, so to speak, to Bay Bulls (is it~and including Bay Bulls, That whole area is special area number one. The very heart of it is the City of St. John's. In principle, they are eligible for DREE help of the kind that DREE gives for water and sewer projects, The fact that a place is within a DREE Special Area, the fact alone or that fact alone does not automatically ensure money from DREE.

There is no one - yes, there may be one, There might be one cf the eight special arears, the one circling, encircling Port au Choix, Hawkes Bay. That is a small DREE area, -very small. With that one exception, there is no chance, there is not a' hope, for years to come, wilike the hymn, there is not a hope that DREE will take care of every infrastructure need in any one of the seven special areas.

The fact that you are in a special area does not mean that automatically your needs will be taken care of for roads, for paving, for water and sewerage, for schools, for parks, for electricity, for all the headings of infrastructure that DREE helps to provide. If all of the money that DREE is going to give Newfowidland~ were to be spent in special area number one and not a dollar of DREE money, infrastructure money,be spent in any_of the other seven special areas,but all of it in special area number one, it would not be enough, We are not going to spend all of it in special area number one.

We are going to spend it in the other seven special areas. These are : The area surrouding Come-by-Chance, special area number two; Centreal Newfowidland, special area number three; the area• -encircling Hawkes Bay, special area number four; Humber Arm,of Bay of Islan~ special area 4757

May 27, 1971 Mr. Smallwood. Tape no. 763 Page 8 number five; St. George's or Stephenville to Flat Bay, special area number six; the Burin or parts of the Burin Peninsula, special area number seven; a

section of Lake Melville, special area number eight. If all the money that DREE is going to give for Newfoundland, for infrastructure,were to be spent in just special area number one, all of it, and not divided among, distributed among eight special areas, it would not be enough money to give special area number one the infrastructure it needs. So, it is not enough merely to be in a special area. It is a help. You are more likely to get DREE money if you are in a DREE special area, I mean DREE money for infrastructure. You do not have to be in a DREE area to get industrial incentives.

You can start an--industry anywhere in this Province except Western Labrador. The industrial incentive money is available to help an .industry starting anywhere in this Province 1 provided, of course, it meets the terms and conditions laid down by DREE in the giving of industrial incentives. You do not have to be in a special area to get DREE help for relocation. You can move from any part of this Province and you will get DREE help to move,provided you move to what they call a growth area - an area that is designated as a growth area. So, the chance of twelve families or ten families~is it? MR.

HICKEY: Twelve families. MR. SMALLWOOD: The chance of twelve families getting $10,000 each spent on them,to provide water and sewerage, $120,000, I understood the hon. member to say, you know, their chance of getting that is substantially reduced by the overpowering and overwhelmning needs of so many people throughout the eight special areas,and there are other needs of other kinds in the non-special areas. So I would say that my hon. friend should go to those people. He should go to them, if they are in his constituency, doubtless he has already been to them.

Well let him go to them again and tell them to band together, get up a delegation, get a the application. It has to be done through the City. deputation and make If they are within 4758

May 27, 1971 Tape no, 763 Page 9 Mr. Smallwood, City boundaries, let them make the application to the City Government. if they are outside the City boundaries but inside the jurisdiction of the metropolitan board, let them go to the metropolitan board. MR. HICKEY: They have already applied to the City. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well I do not know the details. The hon. gentleman knows the details. I am telling him in principle and in outline what the situation is. I cannot say whether DREE will put up this money or not.

If they do, I cannot say whether they will put it up this year or next year or the year after next, I do know only this,that there is a positive limit, There is an absolute limit; outside limit, a maximum, a ceiling on the money that DREE is going to spend in this Province. It is not an unlimited amount. It is not a bottomless pit. It is not the Bank of Canada to be turned over to the people of Newfoundland. It is to be limited.

It is to be restricted each year to a certain sum of money,which might run around $80 million to $100 million a year, a year; to be spent in this Province . for the next four or five years. Then hopefully there will be a renewal of it before it expires,for another period of another four or five years so that perhaps, with lu~k, with grace, we might end up in this Province getting from Ottawa, in the next ten years ,something between $500 and $1,000 million. But how much you will get in any one year is going to be pretty strictly limited,! think. MR.

HICKEY: Mr, Chatrman, just before we carry it, I would like to poi~t out just one other thing about this particular problem. The Premier says that the chances may be slim,in view of the small number of people in relation to the needs of other areas. MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not say that it might be slim. MR. HICKEY: I realize what the Premier said. MR. SMALLWOOD: Do not put words in my mouth. MR. HICKEY: He said that the chances may be slim. This is the way,that I understood it,in relation to the needs of other ares. This is understandable 4759

May 27, 1971 Mr. Hickey, Tape no. 763 Mr. Chairman. However, there is a s~rong case to be made for this particular project,in as much as both homes are scattered. If this Page 10 water line were to be installed, it would service about half of that community, Several other homes could be constructed and other homes that have wells, septic tanks and that would be able to hook up. But it is apparent to me that the City Council have not taken the initiative to come to the Province for assistance,and I know that the people have been pressuring City Council, I have, Nothing has been done so far.

I will take the Premier's advice and I will have the people go back to the City Council and put the pressure on them. MR. SMALLWOOD: Does not the hon, gentleman agree that if it is inside the boundaries of the City of St. John's that it is strictly the City of St, John's problem? They have a water and sewerage system in this City. I do not know whether they can afford it or not. Is it not? I do not know. I am not a member of the council, I do not know their affairs very well. Is it not part and pa!cel or ought to be part and par~el of the City, the municipal water and sew~rage system?

If there are gaps in that system. these gaps would represent a problem for the ~jurisdiction of the City. If _the citizens in question 1in the hon, member's constituency,go to the City Council and ask them if they would please give them. the same water and sewerage service that theyare giving to the other citizens of St. John's. The City Council says in reply: "Dear citizens, we would love to do it, but we cannot afford to do it, You know, that is not the first time in the history of man tht things have not been done because they could not be afforded and I doubt that it will be the last time.

You can_.afford it or you cannot afford it, Now if the City of St. John's wants to make extensions to their water and sewerage system, they know1 4760

May 27, 1971 Tape 764 (morning) PK - 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: without this committee telling them, without my telling them, they know, the City of St. John's are well aware of the fact that it is open to them to apply to DREE for a loan and a grant, because they give both, MR. HICKEY: Maybe they do not care. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well I do not know whether they care or not. I mean,I am not going to defend or attack the City Council. I have my work cut out to carry this Government on to a brilliant success in the future, as in the past. Do not ask me to be answerable for the City Concil.

I am pointing out only that the hon. gentleman is really wasting the time of this committee with business that does not concern this committee. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chaiman, to a point of order. MR. SMALLWOOD: It does not concern us. We have no jurisdiction. l-1:R. HICKEY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I am wasting the time of the committee, and the Premier is just coming to tell us now what a brilliant success he is going to come to. What item is that under? I got the informatio~ Mr. Chairman, that I asked for. The Premier could have sat down ten minutes ago.

I will tell him the brilliant success he is going to come to. I got the information I wanted . and another government 1without a doubt,will assist us, Another onel Another one! Not this one! MR. SMALLWOOD: If the Conservatives do not die first 1 while they are waiting. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before we leave this item - we have only scraped the surface of it actually. It is water and sewerage, There is a lot more to it, We have only been skimming the surface of this vote.

Last year in the House (the Premier has been talking about special areas) the Minister of Community and Social Development 1 in a statement which I read to the House last week,said that there were eight special areas in Newfoundland and three more would be announced very shortly. That is over a year ago, Mr. Chairman. Now we hear the Premier up,with the same rigmarole. 4761

May 27, 1971 Tape 764 (morning) PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: There are eight special areas and nobody outside of those special areas can get anything,until these other three special areas are developed. There is an application in for Placentia to become a special area too. If the Government of Canada refused to declare these special areas last year, and if they have so far this year refused to declare them and certainly they refused to declare the Argentia-Placentia area a special area, what leads the Pre~ier to think that they are going to announce this year that these are going to be treated as special areas?

The House knows that the Premier is frantically trying to get this declared, naturally. Frantically! In fact he is aJ:most out of his collar trying to get these areas declared. But supposing the Government of Canada does not do that, what hope are the people of the Argentia-Placentia area going to have,if our Government will not give a firm commitment that it will see the necessary work is carried out there to enable industrial development in that area, even if the Federal Government does not? Because our Government have yet to make that announcement, Mr. Chairman.

The Government have yet to say that if the Government of Canada will not do it or if Placentia does not become a special area.within the next few weeks, we will see that you get these necessary public services. Our Government will not do that. It has not done it. It should do it. Yesterday,the Premier told the House that the road-paving programme was scrapped in 1968 because the Government had decided to concentrate its money on water and sewerage. Re said that the Joint Municipal­ Provincial Road Paving Programme was being scrapped, had to be scrapped, because there was tight money.

Money was not just that freely flowing. The Government thought the water and sewerage was more essential. Here. the Premier is today in case after case stating that the water and sewerage systems cannot be proceeded wit~, because they are not DREE special areas •. If money is being saved by refusing to go further with the road-paving area, surely the Province should use its own money to help Placentia- 4762

May 27, 1971 Tape 764 (morning) PK - 3 MR. CROSBIE: Argentia, Catalina, Port Union and Bonavista. What is going to happen if the Federal Government will not declare these special areas? The Premier says that they are waiting to see what is happening and how it works out. What about if that takes two or three years to observe the results? Is the Placentia-Argentia area going to wait two or three years before anything further is done? We already know from the Task Force that one of the reasons they give for their failure to be able to create industry and jobs down there is the lack of a proper water supply.

So, I think, Mr. Chairman, that the Premier should reconsider his somewhat too hasty response there of a few minutes ago and give the necessary assurance to the people of the Placentia-Argentia area that the Government are going to give them priority and spend some of this $23 million in the Placentia-Argentia area, not just wait with its hand out to Ottawa; that we are going to do it anyway. The Argentia-Placentia people are Newfoundlanders. It is the responsibility of the Government of Newfoundland to help look after them. If the Government of Canada will not help,then for our Government to do it on its own.

The people of that area are waiting to hear some announcement from the Government - ~ard-hearted Government. On motion item 10 carried. MR. CROSBIE: 1311-04-01 - Plebiscites. We know that plebiscites $3,400 is for plebiscites. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is certainly worth a big long speech or ~ight or ten speeches. MR. CROSBIE: We know. We know. MR. SMALLWOOD: 'Why not just have five or six speeches? MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Chairman, are there interjections? Because when I interject when the Premier is speaking, I do not want to be ruled against, Lecause that will show a discrimination, and we all know there is not.

Now if there are going to be interjections, all right, both sides of the 4763

May 27, 1971 Tape 764 (morning) PK - 4 MR. CROSBIE: House can interject. Now we know, Mr. Chairman, that plebiscites,"p-1-e-b-i-s-c-i-t-e-s,' 1 means plebiscites, and that a plebiscite usually involves a conducting of a vote to see if people want to do something. In this case we are asking what is the $3400? What kind of plebiscite? Is it a plebiscite that may be held to decide whether an area wants a council or does not want a council? How man~ plebiscites does the minister feel that there will be necessary this year? How many plebiscites were there last year? Where did they have plebiscites last year? How much doe