PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE, PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Th~sday, March 24, 1977 -~

¥arch 24, 1977 Tape 1254 IB-1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. ¥r. Speaker in the Chair. ~. SPEAKER: Order, please! PP.ESENTING ~ETITIONS: !-"R. SPE.!<..KER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure today, Sir, indeed, Mr.

Speaker, it is a great honour and a privilege for me to b.e able to present this petition on behalf of 2,400 citizens of this Province at large,. no particular area, Sir, a p~tition signed by 2,400 voters of this Province over the. age of eighteen years in support of the employees of the Waterford Hospital Who are presently in dispute with the Treasury Board and with the provincial government. Mr. Speaker, I will read the prayer of the petition.

It is headed, Petition Of Support' • "We, the. undersigned,support the Waterford Hospital in their fight for a better pension plan, one comparable. to the· -Firemen, Constabulary and Wardens, better working conditions -and salaries.'' And then the signatures. Now,_ Mr. Speaker, in : pr~~entin~ the petition .I want to, first of all - we have heard congratulations going out from the Minister . __ _ of Finance,from the President of the Treasury B9ard, congratulations going out to the various people who have volunteered their services so~called, and we find out they are getting paid and all kinds of fringe benefits.

I want to now, Sir, take the opportunity to congratulate the employees, the workers, the members of NAPE who are on strike,for the way that they have behaved themselves during this dispute. The strike now, .Sir; is going on for approximately five weeks,and apart from one or two minor incidents here and there, Sir, I think that the workers have been well behaved and deserve the congratulations of members on either side of this House. They came in yesterday, Mr. Speaker, to see their Premier. SO!AE RON. }.~}"BEFS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: He snuck up the back way. MR.

NEARY: They came in to see the Premier and their elected representatives. Last night, I think, fifty-three wer.e arrested for

}1'arch 24 , 19 77 Ta pe 1254 IB-2 ~. NEARY: loitering. And, Mr. Speaker - MR. SP~~= Order, please! I must point out to the_hon. gentleman that he is required - .-.~ - ,-to confine his remarks to the ~legation of the petition, not a general debate on issues Whicn might well be related. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~ell, Mr. Speaker, the people who signed this petition of course obviously feel very strongly that the workers at the Waterford Hospital should have a better pension plan. And I believe, Mr. Speaker, the member foT Kilbride (Mr·.

Welis) last year presented a petition on behalf of the workers in at the Waterford. Unfortunately the hon. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) is not in his seat at the present time. But the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells), Sir, who was always. considered to be the champion of the working class people in this Province~up to recently~! would say, presented a petition, was asked and presented a petition,and the members on both sides of the House supported that petition, ~r. Speaker, for an improved pension plan, a restructured pension plan · for the employees at the Waterford. Then • ,. ·-

March 24, 1977 Tape 1255 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: .are. told, Mr. Speaker, by the Minister of Finance,who admitted yesterday that there was a commitment in writing to the workers at the Waterforq, an4 that pbligation and that commitment, Sir, that promise has been broken. So, Mr. Speaker, how could one do anything else but support the prayer of this petition, Sir. It is a legal strike. This House, Sir, g~ve -. these workers the right to go on strike; this House gave the workers the right to go on a legal strike and they are on a legal strike.

And the Premier can have all of the second thoughts he wants about that, but it is the law of the land. These people have there rights, and they are trying to make a case. And I believe now, Mr. Speaker, the thing has dragged on long enough. And I think it is high time, Sir, that the Minister of Finance got down of his high horse, took off his coat, rolled up his sleeves, and started to bargain with NAPE in good faith, with the Waterford workers in good faith.to try to - ·-resolve this dispute. It has dragged on long enough, and these people have suffered enough·. So it gives llle great pleasure, Mr.

Speaker, to support the prayer of this petitio~ s~gnf!d by these 2,400 people throughout this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition, ~and there may be others that may be coming on this, I do not know, . . and if there are others,by the way, and I am sure of that,on the same matter,then I will ceTtainly withdraw, so I could speak to- I think, Mr. Speaker, if it is.-permissible, I do not want fo speak twice on the item. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS:· Yes, we got our wires crossed.

I was trying to -t-signal to my friend here that I had .. the same heading, the same \ petition heading that the m~mber from LaPoiie (Mr. Neary) had just made reference to,and again another approximately 620 or \ \ i ~ _. . . -·-

March 24, 1977 Tape 1255 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: 610 names QP .the petitions that have been handed to me by some ~- of the workers involved in the Waterford dispute. And as my . friend from LaPoile has so"well said, perhaps the first thing that needs to be said is that it is an honour to be able to present this petition which involves the very deep feelings and concerns of so many people, and which indirectly involves the feelings and concerns of literally the whole Province, because I am sure the entire Province is watching what is happening in this situation.

It .has a lot of implication$, I need not have to tell the House. The other point that the member from LaPoile so well made is the matter of restraint. I am very proud of those fellow Newfoundlanders who exercised such tremendous testraint 1Unde r-- · very difficult circumstances during the past five or six weeks. And I join with the member from LaPoile in saluting them for a tremendous display of contained digusted, I suppose, contained concern. certainly for the set of circumstances in which they find themselves through no fault of their own.

Mr·. ·Speaker, I had occasion once again to admire the gentleman from Green Bay (Mr. Peckford), as I so often had occasion to so in the past,when I walked down into the·Lobby and saw him chatting with the Waterford people. MR. WHITE: He was the only one of the crowd. MR. SIMMONS : He has never· been one to run away from ~ fight and I ··adm~_re:_d _?im -ie ~ terday .I overheard some of the things ~eing ·said, ~d they were not always the things you want to hear, but he stood there like a man- and took it; and I admire him for that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! M~ SIMMONS: I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that the Premier would do this cause a grea_t service if he _would very· simply go down and have a chat with those people, as his Minister of Energy had done - -~

March 24, 1977 Tape 1255 PK- 3 Mr. Simmons: yesterday. The people are down there chanting for him, asking f'or him, and I believe that is-the least the people of this Province can ask,that in times of r~al difficulty and frustration that ·their Premier go down and chat with them or hear what they have to say, he does not necessarily agree with them perhaps, but the least courtesy he could accord them is to hear what they want to say to him. Mr.

Speaker, one other suggestion in support of this petition: I believeth~ time has come for either the Premier .or the President of Treasury Board not only to continue to answer questions during the Question Period but also to take an initiative and "inform the House and the people of Newfoundland more fully what is going on, put· it in perspective with a ministerial statement

March 24, 1977 Tape no. 1256 Page l - mw Mr. Simmons. tomorrow,or later this afternoon for that matter, a ministerial statement from the Premi~r or from the President of Treasury Board spelling out in full the situation to date as the government sees it, and the government's position-on the matter. The issue is tending to get confused, and it would help all concerned if we had clearly, in some detail perhaps once and for all,the government's position. I know government will say it has been said in various ways on various occasions, and I do not deny that.

What I_ am saying to gover~ent on this occasion qn behalf of my colleagues is that what we have here is a. very unusual set of circumstances, and the cause is not at all being helped by having · it dragged out over such an extended period of time. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion it is my great privilege and pleasure and honour to support the 600 or so petitioners who have affixed their signatures here to this petition pledging their support to the Waterford RQspital in their fight for a better pension plan, and for better worki~g conditions and salaries.

I support the petition ·, and I ask that it be placed . o~ the table of the House and referred to the appropriate department. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr.- Speaker, I. rise to support the petition is it the exact same one? MR. SD1MONS: Yes, it is the same one. - so ably presented by the two hon. members MR. NOLAN: ~ ~arlier. This strike has now gone on long enough. ~1R. ROBERTS : Rear, hear! MR. NOLA.L~: It is time things were brought to a head, and it can be done only by men and women of good will.

Now it is quite obvious to a number of people, ¥z. Speaker, in referring to this ·--~ - ·-~

March 24, 1977 Tape no. 1256 Page 2 - mw ¥...r. Nolan. petition,that a gentleman for example in the government who in the past has associated h~self very closely with labour disputes in this Province, the Minister of Manpower, has yet to address himself publicly,or otherwise that I know of,on this particular matter, and I think it is time that, with his negotiating skill, that he moved it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear! MR. NOLAN:- All members of government have certain particular strengths that -others do not have.

This is the way you have a balance in the House of Assembly -and in the make-up of any government. And I suggest now, Mr. Speaker, that · there are very uneasy feelings amongst the people who are presently on strike.. They are now into their fifth week. There has - been tremendous aggravation. It is all right to talk about the volunteers who went in there. We commend them. But do- not think that . I, for example, however good my intentions mighe be, can go into thae institution tomorrow and serve those people well. The way to hell is paved-with good intentions. I am not trained.

I do not have the proper knowledge for psychiatric care. And these people obviously have that otherwise they would not have been hired in the first place. Now some of them have been there twenty-five and thirty years. Surely to God they have garnered enough experience and so on to know what they are talking about when they refer -to the - problems in that institution. Now I think that we on this side of the _House have tried to. be responsible in this matter.

There have been those- I am sorry to say in the · past, when there have been strike conditions in this Province, not too many of them are opposite now - who were always billyragging, they were ·going to solve this and solve that. Now I am calling their bluff. Solve this strike now. ---~ SOME HON. 1-1EHBERS: Hear, hear!

Hay 24, 1977 Tape no. 1256 Page 3 - mw HR. NOLAN: Do not wait until someone is seriously injured and come in wringing your hands to save the poor people in t.here. . SOME HON. MEMBERS: H~ar, hear! ~-m.. NOLAN: I call upon the Premier of this Province to meet with those people downstairs. They are fellow Newfoundlanders. PREMIER MOORES: Why? MR. NOLAN: ~Vhy? - Well,if for no other reason, perhaps they are voters. Did that ever occur to t-he han. Premi_~rL __ PREMIER MOORES: No, I will send them to 1 Doody' first. MR. NO!.A..."l' : See them, talk to them.

Surely that is not beyond the jurisdiction of the Premier of this Province. You can talk to people other than election time. Go down and meet with them. And the Minister o£ Health - I have never seen a minister in my life who has .been so ·-·-sileD;:";-_!n a time of strife, in an area under his jurisdiction, and he said nothing. l1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! I __ p~i~t out to the han. gentleman - ~ that the allegation of the petition is· with respect to improved pension and working conditions, and that remarks will have to be kept to that subject or very closely related to it. The hon. member. MR.

NOLAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I certainly respect and will abide obviously by your decision. I simply want to say that we support the prayer of this petition. We sympathize - anyone of us possibly could be on strike. I have helped form unions in my time, and I know what it is like and so have other members of this House. Now they are in a difficult-position, and they need sympathetic and passionate consideration. I am not saying, not suggesting that everything they say is right,nor do many of them. ·But I think ..:

Hay 24, 1977 Tape no. 1256 Page 4 - mw I-fr. Nolan. now is the time. You have probably noticed, Mr. Speaker, I have not attempted in an~vay to ballyrag the Minister of Finance. 3431 = --- . . --

}1'.arch 24, 1977 Tape No. 1257 ~. NOLA.J.\T: t believe he is taking it very seriously. We do· not agree perha~s with many of the stands he has taken. But we do hope n.ow· that some way, some accommodation can be found to support the prayer of this petition, to get these people back to work. And I must also refer to the minister of Mines and Energy yesterday, w:_h·o was down in the ·lobby and under difficult · circumstances I think stood his ground,and he perhaps too might have liked to walk away or go out the back door.iut' the fact is he did not,a~d _ I compliment him for it. MR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear!.

Well said. MR. SPEAKER: ·The hon. member for St. John's North. NM- 1 MR~ 'J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the operativ~ words i~ this petition ~as r have heard them are that the signators of this petition ~ request ~etter working conditions and salaries for the strikers. MR. NEARY: Supp~~ ~~~· Support it. MR. J. CARTER: And I must say that this is a _w9:rt;hwhile and a worthy prayer. Twenty-three years ago, Mr. Speaker, I first went to wor~_ at_that inst~tution,and many- of the people who are on the picket line are people who worked - ~~si~~- me, or who I worked al.t?~~~de of.

They look rather older p.ow; in fact they have aged rather faster than I have. It is not an easy place to work in. The time I worked in there was th~_period when they introduced the new_tranquilizers and so I was able to see the tremendous change wrouglit. -by -th-ese . so: called wonder drugs • .. At that time the salary for a fortnight was $95, the take home pay.

It has increased a great deal since then,but I appreCiate the difficulties . that workers have in there and the frustrating type of work that it is,because although many patients are cured and improved and sent liome, a gr-eat many bf them-never improve and it is the ~.York you do today you have to repeat . tomorrow. -=

!-f:a:rch 24, 1977 Tape No. 19257 NM- 2 HR. J. CARTER: Now unfortunately, ~fr. Speaker, in this strike~ I think myself ·as an onlooker, and I am only an onlooker in this matter, the bargainers for the union in my opinion have painted themselves into a corner,and I would like to see them become more flexible. I feel that there is a meeting ground somwhere along the line. So I would just like to say that I hope that fixed positions on both sides can become more flexible and I hope that there will be a quick settlement of this strike.

And I would like to caution everyone connected with this · strike not to try to make any political hay out of it because it is far too serious. SOME HON. MIDffiERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Hindsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of ~ the petition so ably presented by both the hon. member for LaPoile and the han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. I too have had some involvements with strikes, but this strike again,. going along with the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter),I am and -I only pretend to be an onlooker in that sense as far as . knowing the details. However, there are elements in this strike that must be .more frustrating that in an ordinary strike. Now, ~~. Speaker, I have seen strikes where the only people affe~tad were the people who were on strike. Nobody was coming in and doing their jobs. Their jobs were such that nobody had to do it. I recognize that in this particular case, in this partteular strike,then obviously the service that was being rendered by the people .who withdrew their services had to be replaced.

I accept that and I think the strikers accept that. But,however, it.must only add to their frustration 3493 =- ;

~1arch 24, 1977 Tane No. 1257 NM- 3 MR. FLIGHT: to know that they have been on strike for five weeks and somebody else is maintaining the level, or some level of services. And looking down the road and having seen . .. . no more of - I do not'know 1f there is a light at the end of the tunnel but t~ere appears to be no end in sight for this strike. And the fact that their jobs are being done by somebody else,and they have no recourse in that · . . sense,must be very, very frustrating, ~fr.

Speaker, and I agree with the gentleman who spok~ before me, the time has come to end this strike. 'There must be a meeting ground. And it must be ended before we get into situations that this Rouse and the Province will be sorry for. Now I would like to e~ho my. hon. colleague from Burgee- Bay d'Espoir that I too appreciate _.... and congratulate the hon. Minister of ~1ines and Energy for his courage, . It. probably did not take courage as such, but certainly it could very easily have been avoided. He could very easily have avoided the people in that lobby yesterday.

But he went in and he talked to them and he came i~ for some ------- criticism but he stood there. And I recognize and ·appreciate his courage. And ~aving recognized that~and having a great deal of respect for the abilities . oF- the Minister of Manpower, .:. I submit to the House that the present Minister of ~~npower, Sir, outs .ide . -= .3494

}farch 24, 19 77 Tape 1258 IB-1 ~1R. FLIGHT: of this Province has built an admirable record for his ability to cool it, to bring bodies together. And there have been very few strikes or very few labour problems in this Province since he has become minister that he did not very quickly get into and very quickly bring about some kind of an understanding. And he has got a reputation for that and I take my hat off to him. The question that remains is why this long, why five weeks,and as far as it would seem or appear that the Minister of ~.fanpower has deliberately or otherwise avoided this particular issue.

And I would suggest to the House and to the minister that it is time that he got involved and used those skills that it so readily conceded to him that he possesses. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bay of Islands. MR.. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, as a member of the House of Assembly · ~ I stand to support this petition. I stand here because I am concerned \ about the people who are on strike and also because some of them have come to me and talked about· it. I also, _ _Mr.

Spea~er, su!'_ported the petition that was presented by the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) last year. Now I am not supporting it for any ' political reasons or any political gains because it is too serious a matter. Anybody who is supporting it for any political gains to my mind is not being honest and sincere about how serious this strike is. MR. NEAP.Y: The member supported the petition last year. MP .• WOODROW: Now I feel, Mr.

Speaker, that - and I say this and I am not only hoping fo r it but I know that not only this strike but the many strikes in the Province, it must really take a lot out of the members of the administration, especially the hon. Minister of Finance, whom I feel has the burden on his shoulders. It is not an easy task. I am only_actually a look~r-on,as my hon. colleague from St. John's North (}~r. Carter) is and many others. But it is to my mind a serious matter. There are people over there in fact from my district, and I am not only interested in the people who are there from my district -3495 • --.::.;;;;;;c.

Harch 24, 1977 Tape 1258 IB-2 1-fP • \.JOODROt-1: but in the people who are there from all over the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. ~~il$t I teel, I know., I hope~and not only hope but I know that the administration are doing ·their best but I hope and pray - and I also said I will pray - that this will be settled in the not too distant future. SOME HON. ME¥BERS: Hear, hear! ¥F .• SPEAKEF: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: ~r. Speaker,. I would like to add my support to the two petitions that have been presented to.the House.

And I think it is worth-while pointing out one thing,and that is this, that the signatures on those two petitions did not come from the workers, I understand, at the H'aterford Hospital. They are signatures of support from the ·people of this Province at large. MR. NEARY: That is right. SOME HON. ME¥BERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROWE: And there · are over 3,000 people supporting the strikers at the _waterford Hospital, and they must realize the gravity of the situation or otherwise we would not have had these two petitions brought before the House here today. MR. NEARY: There are more to come,by the way. MR.

ROWE: And, Sir, as the hon. member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) su~gPsts, there are more petitions to come and I could quite easily see why. Sir, it is pretty obvious to me that the whole situation is a st~lemate at the present time. It is absolutely stalemated. We have a group of frustrated people-demonstrating·peacefulr"y down in the lobby of ~he Confe~eration Building this afternoon. And with a situation where you have huge groups of people and they are frustrated you can quite easily have a mob situation.

Now I would like to commend the demonstrators down in th~ lQbby at the present time for acting very responsibly, injecting a little bit of humour into their protest and calling upon the Premier - the hon. Premier may know the song they are singing down there, "Oh where, oh where can Frankie be?" It ,_ -3496 --~

~fa rch 24, 19 77 Tape 1258 IB-3 is a little btt of humour but they are serious and they are sincere, Sir. ~. SIMMJNS: It p13.kes the point •. !-fR. Rot.ffi: And it makes the point. I would suggest that either the Premier go dol-m and tal k w-ith these people - - -- .349?

March 24, 1977, Tape 1259, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROWE: to at least show some respect for their demonstration and their feelings. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point-out to the hon. gentleman, as I have pointed out to other hon. members, that the prayer of ~ the petition is all that bon. members may comment upon, and all that the rules will allow me to hear them on. As I understand it the prayer of the petition is for improved pension and ~prov~ working conditions. I would ask hon~ members to stick · to the allegation and to rela.te their remarks thereto. The hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR.

ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will abide by your ruling but - no but. L should not say but - one way I would suggest to improve the situation and try to improve the pension scheme. for· the Waterford Hospital wor~ers, is for either the Premier - and probably my close friend the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations MR. ROBERTS : Both of them!. MR. ROWE: No, just that one gentleman, I think, alone. If he left the Chamber this afternoon, after the Question Eeriod, and brought the parties together I think that wit~in forty-eight hours we might see a settlement to this particular strike.

So I would recommend very strongly that the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations get together~wit~ his skills a~~ his ex.pei:ience in th"is kind of situation, ·get the parties together and try to straighten this- thing · out· once and for all. MR~ SPEAKER: ~e hon. the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition and in so doing I will give our experi~nce in.the old Liberal ~Party we talk about so often. \ - Mr. Speaker, early in the period of the Liberal Party, annually, I do not remember how many years, but the 3498

March 24, 1977, Tape 1259, Page 2 -- apb MR. CAl.'lNING: private members of the government, the backbenchers ;- v:~s~?-ted that hospital, went through it, talked with the staff, saw the conditions, came back and reported to the government. That was our attitude-toward the Waterford Hospital. At that time, of course, anybody who was around knew that conditions were pretty bad there. There were improvements made b~t anyway we kept in touch with them. . I fully support the petition .• Yesterday evening going out I asked if there was anybody there from my district. I did not find them yesterday evening, but.

I found them coming in today. I talked to them for awhile. All 1 told them was that I hoped that justice would be done. I simply said, "Well~the best of luck to you, I hope there is j~sEi_ce ~on.e_ to your cause." There were at least thirty of them shouted out, "That is what we want, Sir. That is all we watit.•.V It is my candid opinion that that is what these "- people are down there for. They were pretty peaceful, they were looking for the Premier. Why tEe Premier did not go in and have a chat with them I do not know. They told . us his car was moved, his chauffe~r cama~ but. they- did net. see -him go out.

So I told "them there were only two ways for -h:illi-to-·-go--out -and- ·they- should - - --- - --- ~ -- -- ~-.. . -- -nav~ seen him go through one door or the other and they should have gone:;: and talked to h:iJD.. I think the Premier should have talked to them yesterday evening. They were anything but a rough crowd. As . . somebody just said, they w~re humourous, They did not act like people who were going to gut out the place or cause a riot. They were like the ··people who tried to get into the House · of Assembly a few years ago, the same typ~ of people who are doing the tough work of this Province.

I will add that I have visited that hospital where unfortunately people must go,and I can tell you, in my opinion, it is a tough job. They have it pretty tough. It is one of the hardest jobs, I suppose, in the Province. There must be special people to carry out the duties. It is not easy to deal with, or cope with people who are unfortunate.enough to have 3499 .:

March 24, 1977, Tape 1259, Page 3 -- apb MR. CANNING: deranged minds, mentally affected. It must be terrible. I often wonder if the staff and the nurses and whatnot _are picked. You have to be a special type of person to go into that hospital and do your duty and cope with the problems that you find there, the unfortunate problem that human beings are afflicted with.

I think if there is a group of workers in this Province who need consideration, and good working conditions, and decent wages, and whatever they are asking for - because in one voice, I think, they said ~o ine that they want justice done to them. · -- I think it is the responsibility of the government to . see that ' justice is carried out. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I am not very familiar with the precise nature of the demands_ of the union that is, · -= -~ --~

Harch 24, 1977 Tape no 1260 Page 1 - mw Hr. Smallwood. on strike at the 'i.Jaterford Hospital. I am not in a position to say anything as to the rightness or the wrcngness, the correctness, the justice. or ot-herwise, of their demands. That matter is in the hands of the government and particularly in the hands of the Hinister of Finance. Generally speaking I take a verv poor view indeed of strikes in hospitals. I have always taken a very po~r view of strikes in hospitals, or indeed in any part of the public service.

I do not regard the people of ~ewfoundland as being an ordinary employer, and strikes against ordinary employers are one thing, strikes against the people of the Province, another thing again. And I do not believe that it is right to have strikes against the public service, in any part of the public service. However, there are two things I can say. These petitions do not, I understand - I have not read them, but as I have heard them described - they do not go into the details of the demands of the strikers in this particular strike.

They just say that they favour~these citizens of (,'uj~~-;fellow Newfoundlanders · in different parts of the Province ----who have sent these two petitions and who, I understand, are going to send a lot more, and a lot more people will sign them. What our fellow Ne~vfoundlanders say is that they favour a better deal for the workers in Waterford Hospital. Well who does not? And I would assume that the government, being Newfoundlanders, would be eager for them to have better conditions as far as it is feasible and practicai 'to do it.

And that is sometimes a matter of the - budget. - Sir, having said all that, I noticed - yesterday I came in through the main entrance of the building, and ag~in today, and yesterday I left:,._ and _they were still down there, and I was moved, I have to confess . . Coming in now I was deeply moved, and I must say I have a lot of sympathy for them. I am against strikes in hospitals. But these are 500 men and women,

:-rarch 24, 1977 Tape no.1260 Page 2 - mw Hr. Smallwood. young and old and middle-aged, a lot of young gitls , and they are on strike. Hell hmv can we fail to be sympathetic? HR. NEARY: It ia a legal-strike. This House passed the law. NR. SI1ALLWOOD : Well, I am not - it is legal, I know it is legal. It is a pity that it is legal, but it is.- MR. NEARY: It was the House who - MR. SHALLWOOD: This House passed the law making it legal to have strikes in hospitals. I regret that tr~t was done. I do no_t believe in strikes in hospitals.

But nevertheless this is a legal strike under the law of the land, the law made here in this very Chamber. And so they are legally on strike. It is regrettable that they are. It is deeply to be regretted that there is not a more civilized way of settling ~hese disputes. It is just too bad that youngsters have to march around and sing. It is too bad. If I were the Premier, if he would take a word of advice - I aJll not trying to get his job on him. He does not need to be afraid of me in anyway - if !_were the Premier now today I would do what I have done before.

There ~ave been other groups down there, other strikes ," and some bad situations, and I went down and mixed among them,and they were delighted. .: I would be surprised if the Premier does not go down and meet with them. He is not going to be bullied into it. I do not believe anybody can scare him or bully him into going, but I believe he-will-go down and say, Hello I do not think he will -usurp the position of the President of-Treasury Board, whose job it:_ is ,or th~ job of the :t-1inister of Industrial Relations. He will not go down and start negotiating. That is not his job.

But to go down and say hello to a bunch of Newfoundlanders, I believe he will do it. He has done it before, and I believe he will do it again. He does not have to enter into the pros and cons of the matter. Tnat is in the hands where it is, and were it ought to be. ·. 35U2

~!arch 24, 1977 Tape no. 1260 Page 3- mt.r Hr. Smalh.rood. I am in very warm sympathy with these 500 fellow Newfoundlanders, as I suppose all. Newfoundland is indeed. But that is without regard to the merits or demerits of their demands. I am not too familiar with that, but I am in sympathy with them. And as for the prayer of the petition, better conditions, who· is going to say no to tha~? ' SOME RON. :t-W...BERS : Hear, hear! MR. SP~~~: The han. member for St. George's. MRS. MACISAAC: Mr .. Speaker, I, too, rise to support the ~petition presented on behalf of those workers.. .I feel that a strike is a bad thing . 3503 --· -. ~ -·--

~arch 24, 1977 Tape 1261 IB-1 ~. S. MACISAAC: wherever it occurs but certainly in a hospital or in an institution such as this. I know that the people Who are on strike are suffering because of it, but I · also feel tha-t t:he people Who are in that institution are suffering. I do not think that regardless of who - SOME HON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MRS.· ¥ACISAAC: I think that regardless of who goes into that institution as ·volunteers to do the work of the employees,regardless of whom they are, they are not trained to handle a situation such as this, and the patients in- that institution must be suffering.

I make two appeals today, one to the government, to the minister, the President of the Treasury Board,and to the Minister of Manpower~to get back to the bargaining table and try and settle this dispute with the ~rorkers. They·have been out long enough and they have, from what I can understand, just cause to strike. I think that they have to get back to the bargaining table. I do not think that putting the Premier on the · spot and asking him to go down and say hallo to these strikers, I do not think that is going to solve the problem at all.

It would ' be nic:e, very nice.,but that is not where the problem exists. I think you . __ have got to get back to the bargaining table to. get this thing straightened out. I certainly think that we should not only think of the -workers who are out on strike~but give a little consideration and a little bit of thought to the people who are in that institution Who need special care. Thank you. _§0~ HON • MEMBERS : Hear~ hear: . -·:..:::.;;.. MF.. SPEAKER : The hon·. Minister of Finance. MR .• DOODY: Mr!

Speaker, as I rise to support the petitions that have ~ · .:. . been presented by hon. members opposite,! cannot help but begin by 1 saying that the prayer of the petition,which asks for improved working conditions and an improved pension plan and salary improvements.,have already been offered to the unit who are presently on strike at Waterford Hospital. :rAP. • NE.ARY : That is not so. 3504

}farch 24, 1977 Tape 1261 IB-2 MR. DOODY: That position has been put forward. ~r. Speaker, on a point of order. The hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) says that is. not so. One of us has got to be wrong. I contend that I am r-.ot wrong ., that we have . offered a full package . of salary improvements. We are willing to discuss working conditions and improve them where we can,and a pension plan improvement in two different sections was outlined by me in some detail yesterday in this hon •. House.

The first pension plan improvement that we offered was for workers who are employed ,in at the Waterford prior to 1960, and there were various other conditions attached to that including a five yea~ final average and so on. That was unacceptable to ·the unit. They refused to sit down and talk about that. We went back to them •again and said, employees who were there prior to 1965 with a three year average and then there was a percentage of salary involvement which we offered and which the unit refused to sit down and discuss.

And, Sir, to suggest that we should get back to the bargaining table is to suggest· the obvious. It is something that we have been trying to do desperately for the past five weeks to the extent of spending Saturdays and Sundays. Two or three Sundays ago, I think, I . met with Mr. Locking and his group in .here in this building and went over this whole thing. And the _position up to that point and up to yesterday was completely inflexible. The unit wanted - I quote "The Warder's pension plan". You give us the Warden's .pension plan and then we will discuss all other conditions and all other areas of contention.

Now, ~r. Speaker, I have to contend in all honesty and . -= sincerity that that is not collective bargainin.g. When yo~ are a responsible group of people in charge of - - 3505

March 24, 1977 Tape 1262 PK- 1 Mr. Doodv: a very, very sensitive institution, and you have a very serious responsibility, and you are given by a government after very serious consideratidn·the right to strike, and that strike weapon should be used with extreme delicacy and as a last resort, - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! : _MR. DOODY: - not as a tool or a weapon of coercion, - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

DOODY: - not used as a lever to take the greatest possi?le maximum advantage out of government because they have been given this opportunity,despite the fact as I sai~ there are 400 people in that institution; and maybe the hon. member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) is right, maybe this government was wrong in giving these people the right to strike. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: Maybe that was an error we made. Maybe we were wrong. MR. NEARY: That is not the issue. MR. DOODY: The issue right now, Sir, I am well aware of what the issue is; I am far closer to it than the hon. member is.

I have spent far too many hours working at this thing, . thinking about it, sleeping about it, or sleeping without it, walking the floors and dreaming about it, having phone calls at 4: 00 o .'.clock i~ the morning,~£ the most vicious,and obscene kind imaginable. You do not have to tell me the abuse t~at.my family is taking on this, and my wife is taking on this, and my children have taken on this·. MR. NEARY: Nobody is forcing you to. --~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear; · hear! MR. DOODY: I. am not going to be - Mr. Speaker, will you please ask the hon. l:arynx-, from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to control himself. MR..

SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman has the right to speak without interruption, and when he insists upon its observance that it must be observed.

March 24, 1977 Tape 1262 PK- 2 M...~. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, this government, this administration~ and I on behalf of Treasury Board,have offered everything short of complete capitulation on that one issue. Up to yesterday we have -said we will sit down and t~lk about everything,but nobody can sit down under the guns of an ult:ilnatum and say we will discuss the other items that you are concerned with, but only on condition that you give us the warders 1 or the Constabularly pensiori plan. Now let us not forget this one very crucial point in this _issue, M r.

Speaker,- and that is that the firemen and the . . policemen in this Province of ours do not have the right to strike. They have given up that right, and they have certain privileges. The people at Waterford have the right to strike, but they are also a very sensitive and a very important unit. And I think it incumbent upon them to act in a responsible and a sensible manner. Now up to yes~erday,as L have said,there was absolutely no give at all,despite all the efforts of Treasury Board and government, despite all the efforts of the hon.

Minister for Industrial R~lations and Manpower, whose name has been mentioned here frequently today and I know he himself has been personally involved in this thing ·, and he ,I am sure, will speak to this himself; he himself made personal overtures to union representatives in an attempt to reconcile the differences and he received the same response we did. Yesterday,as I told this h9n. House,Mr. Locking came to my office with a letter in which he laid down some other conditions which he suggested might be the grounds for further discussion. .These grounds are now under consideration by government.

But I will suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, and to everybody involved in this situation,that nothing is going to be gained by more public outcry,by more demonstrations, by more inflamatory speeches, The hardening of positions __ is the ~as~est thing in the world to get involved in. You can" box peopie · into ·corners from which they cannot get out of, you can force people into positions which are immcrvafrle~ . -.:. ----

March 24, 1977 Tape 1262 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: you can put people into positions in which they do not want to get involved in, and that, Sir, is what we have been trying to avoid. I have .no more intention, Sir, of getting involved into public debate on this issue,because it has to be resolved at the bargaining table and the more quickly the unit returns to the bargaining table the more quickly we can get the thing resolved and there is nobody more anxious than I to do it, and that is why, Sir, I support the petitions that have been offered and presented to this han. House. SOME RON. MEMBERS: -Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Indus~rial Relations. MR . J. ROUSSEAU : Mr. Speaker, some two wee~s ago I met with ~he union, I did not make any announcement on it, I do not think there was any public information given on the"meeting. I met with them for some two to three hours with Mr. Locking, with the President and with the executive and members of the negotiating team to see whether there was a way out of this impasse. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, when - ~Sides become hardened it is very difficult to find some common ground ..

And I wanted to see whether there was a possibility of putting together some package that both sides ~auld accept, to get both sides back to the bargaining table for bargaining in good faith, and good faith bargaining, Mr. Speaker, is merely the .:

March 24, 1977 Tape No. 1263 NH - 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: ability to give and take again,as I mentioned yesterday \vhen I was speaking, where one side does some giving and one side does some taking and vice versa. I am certainly prepared, from the indication that my colleague has,to convene a meeting between the unit and Treasury Board, but only the ass~ption that there is some leevmy on both sides. The last position I received from the unit was that unless they got the pension they were not prepared to talk about anything else, and government's position = \vas in the other corner.

And if somebody is not prepared to negotiate~it is not much good of putting somebody in the middle of it. But if I have an indication from the unit and from Treasury Board that both sides wish to negotiate,certainly .· I would convene a preliminary meeting and probably be with them with senior officials in my department,or myself if necessary, to try and bring about some resolution to this dispute and I think, Mr. Speaker, that Mr.

Locking knows me well enough, that he knmvs, I would hope he knmvs as other labour leaders across this Province know, that when somebody wants to get to a bargaining table and somebody has something ~ to talk about and to negotiate and if his position has changed · since he last saw me, that a phone call would be sufficient. And I \·lOuld certainly explore the situation again if I find that there is some room there for manoeuvering on both sides, And I am certainly prepared as I say to convene a meeting between --=-- both sides~and hopefully to bring about a resolution to this unfortunate dispute.

I do not think the 500 people who are out ther~ they believe in what they are doing, obviously very strongly. There has to be some room for manoeuvering bet•·~een ~oth sides ,-and as I say. if I have an indication from the unit and from Treasury Board that they are prepared to accept my office, or my designate, to sit between them to convene a meeting and there is going to be some give and take

YJarch 24, 1977 Tape No. 1263 m1- 3 PREMIER MOORES: upon concurrence with Mr. Colbourne was the 4th. of December, referenced in a conversation to the selling at Christmas; his reference, I think he was as confused as I r.vas in the paper, that it was probably Christmas, It was in fact actually the 4th. of December, the date involved,and I just wanted to get that clear. It is not a major issue but I just wanted to make it clear to the House. - -MR. ROBERTS: I will not argue that one. I will give you that one. PREMIER !'fOORES : I was not here yesterday. MR.... SIMMONS;_ --- :' Two days later.

MR. -ROBERTS: Abit late. PREMIER MOORES: Certainly the first opportunity is being here in the House, Mr. Speaker, I would hope. ~~~ SPEAKER: I understand that the Premier has raised a \ oJ.nt of privilege and in fact made it and .;.. P~IER MOOPES: I have made the point of privilege. If: the Leader of the Opposition wants to - MR.. SPEAKER: - is now going on to speak to the petition. MR. ROBERTS: That is really more important. -PREMIER MOORES : Much more important, ~r. Speaker. On the matter of the petition, first of all I do not think there is 1 any member of this House - MR.. S Il1MONS : On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: I have to hear a point of order. MR. SI~'IMONS: I believe ~t is a point of order, I am not ~- certain. The Premier indicated a moment ago that he would rather it were a debate. We would >ve,and if he wants. to -- . ---seek the consent of th e House, Mr. Speaker, we would be ------- - ---- - -- ----- ------ - happy to give it. PRmfrER MOORES: That is not a point of order. ~1R. SIM!-mNS: T..Je are looking for a full debate on the Waterford situation. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please. The hon. ~inister of Justice. 3~11 .: -·--

~farch 24, 1977 Tape No . 1263 · ~. HICKNMl: Mr . Speaker, I submit that not only is that not a point of order, but that is a specious, frivilous, ~ vexacious interjection in a -seria.us -~ debate. ~1R . ROBERTS: • 0. . o. - 0 • No. :Jo. ~ MR . S I:-1~-lONS : We uant a debate. ~ m. SPEAKER: Orde r, please! There is no point of order ~fore the Chair. \ petition. The hon. Premier is speaking to the \ , ~1- 4 P~R MOORES : Thank you, .Mr . Speaker. First of all~regarding the ~-late rford strike it is a pretty serious matter, particularly to those people who are on strike, ~sA2 ....... .1. - :==-.

~!arch 24, 1977 Tape 1264 IB-1 PREMIER HOOP.ES: much more so I would suggest than those who do not have to suffer the traumatic experience of being five weeks in protest of a belief and in fact not having incomes. -These people are without auestion suffering more than any others. The fact is that people do go on strike because of principle. And in supporting better conditinns for them at the Waterford Hospital~! also can say that I am very sympathetic to people who work in circumstances such as the employees of the Waterford.

I am also sympathetic o~ people who work in other institutions or other ~.rays of life that are not the normal everyday society. Sir, I suggest that, as I heard ~vhen I came in and since I have been here, that the chant is for the people in the lobby, some fifty, sixty or whatever it is, strikers to meet with me. I suggest, Sir, that the reasoning behind that is to hope for a help towards the settlement of the strike as opposed to any other type of social gesture. Obviously that is what the objective o~ these people is.

And I suggest, Sir, as much as I would like to be able to do that,that that is impossible when the procedure for settling strikes between union and management is such as it is at this time. I have always seen delegations in the past, executives of unions, executives of groups,and I will not change that position. I always w·~ll. But the fact is, Sir, do in fact the people from iVaterford have any more right to have that sort of interference,which is what it would be, than if there was a .strike in the z_inc mine in Dan_iel 's Harbour and they do not ha:ue the same access.

Do these people not --~ also have the same right? But there·are procedures, Sir, to handle the strike and the labour_negotiations situation. ~fR. NEARY: The Premier stepped into a couple before, less serious than this one is. Order! - ~ -PREL'1:IER MOORES: }-fr. Speaker, the one thing is that the difficulty of interference,as I have just said, is the fact that that wil1 be taken 3513

~farch 24~ 1977 Tape 1264 IB-2 PP.EYIER 1-~00RES : as part of the procedure as opposed to the correct procedure. Now as I understand it the Department of Labour have made their services . available from several weeks ago, · that Treasury Board in recent weeks have made t~vo offers which in fact were not considered worthy of sitting down at the table. I understand Mr.

Locking was in yesterday with a counteroffer for the first time in a considerable length of time and that is presently being studied by Treasury Board and hopefully they will be sitting dmrn and - now that both sides have eventually started to move- sit down ·and war~ this out in the manner in which it should be worked out. Sir, I suggest that no matter what we decide,or what we would like to do as individuals~ I do not think there is any individual in this Rouse who does not feel very personally sympathetic to a situation such as we are facing.

But the one thing, Sir, that as long as this institution is here and as long as we are part of it, we cannot have anarchy dictating what government or procedures in our society, what they normally do. We cannot have - SOME RON. ME¥BERS: ~fuere is the anarchy? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! PREYIEF :1-.fOORES: We cannot have settlement, 1-fr. Speaker, by demand. SO?-"E RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 1-4P. • SPF.AKER : Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! I must point out to hon. members that when an hon. member is speaking there cannot be interference.

There -certainly cannot be ___ "'the kind a: course of interference and wh~t certainly would have led up to quite . acr imonious exchange and . debate. The rules are quite _ ----specific on that · and I must point it out to hon. members. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : On a point of order. I was not one of those who l-Jas raising my voice in response to ' t~e Premier; but I certainly was tempted to, Sir, because my point of order is t hat t he Premier is entering into the realm of debate.

Well, Sir, I would like nothing better than to be able to debate the ~Jaterford situation or the .3514 --- . =- -·

~-~arch 24, 1977 Tape 1264 IB-3 MR. P.OBEPTS: government's handling of it- SOf"E HON • }fiDfBEPS : Hear, hear! MR. POBERTS: - but, Sir, we are sp_eaking on a petition and I v10uld say, Sir, that the Premier's statements, that certain matters and certain occurrences in his view constitute an approach towards the -state of anarchy, are certainly debate, Sir. They are certainly matters . of opinion and certainly matters which are subject to debate. ~-· SDAMONS: Shame! Shame! Withdraw. MR. F.OBERTS: Mr. Speak~r ; I have not finished the point of order if the Premier would resume his peat for a momentiplease.

I submit Sir, the Premier should be asked to withdraw those statements and to confine himself to a statement of matters such as is in order on a debate on a pe~ition. Now if the Premier would arrange - and Sir, it is in the Premier's hands - a 3515

~!arch 24, 1977 Tape no. 1265 Page 1 - ~fS Mr. Roberts. word from the Premier and this House this day 'Hill debate this matter. Sir, I ~vould like nothing better. SOME HON. ~~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SP~~R: The hen. Premier. B.REMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. My reference to anarchy was in the context of · in order to give the benefits to the people at the Waterford Hospital, as is outlined in this petition, the method to do it is not by demand of any individual to go down and meet with a group, unscheduled, unsolicited.

There are procedures set up in the governmental process, through the Department of Labour, through the negotiating committees,that do that only too well. And that was :·my -reference to anarchy, Sir, as opposed to ------ it should not be done on demand by a rule.of emotion.It should ; be done by the rules - I was leading up to the rules of what the various departments and responsibilities we have are. So it was not, Sir, as I suggest, any reference to a state of anarchy. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Sir. I would submit, ~Sir, that the bon.

Premier's counter argument to my bon. friend, the Leader of the Opposition, Sir, was just a matter of opinion. It really was .completely irrelevant to the point of order. The han. Premier obviously in his few remarks got carried away and got a part of his MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - an~t0my cau2ht in the wringer. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. gentleman is recognized to speak to the point of order, qnd he must do that. }fR. NEARY: Well, Er. Speaker, I agree with the point of order raised by my han. friend that the Premier strayed somewhat 3516 = - -· -~

~-farch 24, 1977 Tape no. 1265 Page 2 - HS :t-fr. ~earv. from the prayer of the petition, and I think, Sir, that if the Premier is going to speak on it, he should be relevant and -not make wi·ld, irresponsible statements like he did a few moments ago. SOME HON. ~~1BERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Cn the particular point of order raised by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, the substance of it certainly was that there should be no debate on the petition. He interpreted the remarks of th~ non. Premier as debate. The han. Premier reinterpreted or gave his

interpretation of what in fact he meant, and obviously there was a difference of opinion as to, you know, the precise meaning of those terms. What I think has to be emphasized is that there can be no debate. As han. members know Standing Order 92 points out that ~part from the statement of the ·parties and the number of signatures,all that may be spoken on is the material allegation in the petition. This·. particular Standing Order makes no reference to a discretion in the Chair. It -would appear, however, that the Chair has sort of assumed -it, and it has given a fairly generous

interpretation to material allegation, and has given that generous inter~retation to han. gentlemen to.my right and to my left. And I would think,understanding the seriousness of the matter and the number of members who have. spoken and the interest therein, - and- tte fact that han. gentlemen both to my right and to my left have used this ·broad

interpretation of material .allegation,that t~t ~s q~~~~ ~pp~op~iate and understandable. It does not, of course, relate to debate. And while the term 'material allegation' is capable in certain instances of a generous

interpretation, and this is something which has been in today's particular instance acquiesced in by han. members . to my right and to my left,that does _ ~~ permit debate. I think 351? . - -~ -- -~

:rarch 24, 1977 Tape no. 1265 Page 3 - mw HR. SPEAKER: that is the substantial point to be made. So I will repeat that debate is not permitted and the fact that - - a broad interp-retation of' 'material allegation' is being used by hon. members on both sides does not mean that they may debate the matter. The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: ~!r. Speaker, I _did not mean to - I think ~ it is too important to have this sort of nit picking back and forth, and I apologize if in an'Y'.ray I s_trayed from it, and I will try to stick with the-facts.

But what_I say, Sir, the way to solve this strike is for both parties to sit down at the table. The way to support the prayer of this petition is for both sides to sit down at the table. There are many possibilities. The warders' pension, that the warders and the police~ as it has been_ ·said have-giv.en-- · up the right to strike. But you cannot even talk about that unless you have sat down to~~~k abo~t it with both sides. Compulsory arbitration, like the polic~ have, but in order to get that the police ~ave_up the right to strike, and maybe 3518 : /

March 24, 1977 Tape 1266 NM- 1 PREMIER MOORES: that: is what we should be talking about. Maybe vle should be talking about compulsory arbitration, binding arbitration-, whichever is the word, binding or compulsory, the hon. member understands. The fact is that that is the sort of ~hing probably we should be talking about. ~1aybe it is settleable in its present state. But, Sir, what I am really getting up to say is that there must be a better way.

We have already , met on two weekends, one weekend with the presidents of several labour unions in the Province towards- a settlement of this dispute and what can be done, the _! resident :o!_ Treasury Board and myself and others. And now it is not that we have not been concerned, we have been very involved. And we have been very involved because \ve are very concerned. And the fact-is, Sir, as the. hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) said, it is all very well to go down to talk to groups, :but there is one thing I would ask him to remember, Sir, is when the Leader of the Opposition and himself .and the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) were in the government these people did not even_ have the right to be in the lobby, they did not have the right to strike anyway. SOME -HON. MEMBERS : Hear~ Hear! MR. STI1MONS: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: I have to hear the hon. gentleman on a point of order. Orde:r:, ple.8:se! AN HON. MEMBER: This is ridiculous. ~-1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! -- ~ PREMIER MOORES: It is true. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! ID.. ROBERTS: It is the Premier who is afraid. MR. SI~~10NS: Mr. Speaker,-the Premier only- a moment ago made . - -a gr,eat s~ctimonious statement in the House, he was not going nit picking. 3519

~1arch 24, 1977 Tape No. 1266 :rn.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman must - HR. SIW10NS: It is a point of order. . . ~ffi. SPEAKER: If the hon. gentleman will permit me? The hon • . gentleman is recognized to state the. point of order., and in this I make these comments for all hon. members on both sides.

There has been certainly too much of a tendency to take advantage of the opportunity of being recognized by the Chair on a point of order to get into extraneous matters and debate, and hon. members when they are recognized for-the point of order must state- specifically what the point of order is, and any supplemental material must relate to that point of order and the arguments that they think validate it. But not any personal references or other debate. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I was just preambling what is my point of order, namely that the Premier, like all of us, must stay rel~yant even with the broad sphere that Mr. Spea~er has allowed today. He is straying into debate very - I do not know about very deliberately butvery decidedly,. Mrr Speaker. He is getting in the area of debate and he is also getting into the area of irrelevant nit picking~which is not only out of order but according to his comments a few moments ago should be beneath the dignity of this House , and I would sugges.t to him; Mr. Speaker, that he practice - what he preaches - AN HON.

MEl·!BER: On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: I am already hearing one and I cannot hear two at a time. ~m.. SIMMONS : I would suggest he practice.what he preaches ~nd at the same time be relevant and at the same time not get into d~ate. ?fR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please! I do not see that there is any bona fide point of order before the House. There is certainly

March 24, 1977 Tape No. 1266 m-! - 3 MR.. SPEAKER: a difference of opinion between han. members and the rules do not allow me to permit them to debate it now, but I do not see any specific point of order. . . As it is quite obvious, whenever AN HON. MIDffiER: (Inaudible) . ~·!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Listen,boy. !fR.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ -when a discretion is given and is exercised, when a discretion is given as has been given now, because it appeared that that was the wish of both sides and that there was an acquiesence t herei n , so a discretion is given and the term "material allegation" is given a broader context than it usually is, the House runs the risk then of entering into debate,and that Standing Order 97 saying that there shall be no debate, that being .undermined by a broad

interpretation being given to Standing Order 92, and tha~ is what has happened here. A broad interoretat i on has been _.. . ----- given in this specific instance to Standing Order 92, -~a~ . . does not affect the continuing operation of Standing Orde~ 97, and I think to be fair to han. members on both sides, all I can say is this, that if Standing Order 97, which prohibits debate, does, in my opinjon, sgutinue to be infringed upon, I ~nll call, - as I am entitled to, and as much as I would regret doing it, but I think it would be my duty to do so, I will call the next order of routine business. The han. Premier.

MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a point of order. HR. SPEA..T{ER: Another point _of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I believe since 1 then and this is a genuine __...,.point of order, Sir, I believe the Premier was straying somewhat ~ from the prayer of the petition. I believe the Premier was being irrelevant, entering into the realm of debate, Sir. ~ -=

~arch 24, 1977 Tape no . :266 NM- 4 ~ • NE..b,.RY : The prayer of the petition calls for support o~ the employees at the t-laterford Hospital in their fight to get a bett.er pension plan and better working . . . · conditions . And to bring in red herring, Sir, such as whether or not the workers should have the right to strike, 'v-hether there is ,you know - ~o~hether the government - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I have heard ' the hon. gentleman's point of order . As far as I can judge it is, although in different words, the same point of crder as made by the . hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) , -= .t 3522

March 24, 1977 Tape no. 1267 N1f- 1 MR.. SPEAKER: and all I can say is very close to what I said before,The hon. gentleman is saying that by the Premier referring to the right to strike that this irrelevant. The right to strike was referred to by at least one other and perhaps several other han. gentlemen in the House and NR. NEARY: I was not - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Or4er, please! I am not permitted, and it is not my intention, I am not permitted to enter into debate with the hon. member and he is not permitted to enter.into debate with me·as well.

What I am pointing out is that the factors, areas covered by the Premier with respect to the right to strike and these ----- --related subjects, were to the best of my knowledge the object -------~--- ·-- ----of comments by han. gentlemen to my right,and - AN HON. MEMRRR: (Inaudible). MR. SPEfi3mR: Order, please! Now the Chair is in a position whereby it cannot, it is precluded by the rules of the E:ouse, of entering into debate. It is also in the position that it cannot permit, not the individual but the institution ef the House to be undermined by any han. member who will insist on that.

SOME HON. ~-!EMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: So I shall have to be,and will be,strict in that area and will fulfill my obligation in that area. No d~bate i~ .permitted. The area of material allegation has been broadened. Ron. members to both my right and left have been given a certain leeway in the broadening of that concept. I think if a kind of undue advantage is taken of that,and if then the House gets into debate,I shall have no choice but to call the next order of b~at is the second time I have said it and- I do not intend to say it again. The hon. the Premier. 3523

furch 24, 1977 Tape ~~o. 126 7 PREMIER MOORES :. :'-{r. Speaker, I apologize if anything ~ ~ I have said has stimulated reaction,because I do think ~it is serious and I also, Sir, would like to say that I think the only . ~•ay this partic~lar dispute can be resolved so that the prayer of this petition is supported is for both sides to. sit do{vn at the table again . .

Now whether there is a better way~and whether the strike itself is obsolete in some services, whether~ ~s.- union leaders all across the nation say, that possibly there is another way out, that is something for this House to study at another time,but something I think that we very well could study as ~ non-partis~n aprroach to what should be done in the way of labour in this Province. But the fact is, Sir, what I suggest now, -~-- and what I appeal to Mr.

Locking and his executive: to do,is to meet as soon as possible, hopefully tomorrow, with the officials of Treasury Boarl, a?d_ .let them get back at the table and see if this cannot be resolved in the normal way, even though emotions are high, in the normal way and with the normal conversations and bargaining that goes on at the table, but to get them back at the table and keep them at the table until reason and rationale and sympathy prevail~and I am sure that our people are only too anxious to do that. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for r-lount Pearl. MR. N. WINDSOR: · Mr.

Spe·ak~r, I rise also to speak very ~briefly in support of this petition. I think perhaps that most of what needs to be said has been said by the hon. NM - 2 the Premier and hon. 1!dnisters and otf1er han·. members. But, Sir, I ~vould like to also express my concern. A great many of these striking workers from the Waterford Hospital are . . 3524

~arch 24, 1977 Tape No. 1267 NH - 3 HR. ~l. HINDS OR: residents of my district and have expressed their concerns to me,and I know that many of them, particularly those ~.;rhere both husband and wife are Harkers of that hospital, they are now undergoing great difficulties. It has, Sir, dragged on for five weeks. It is : most unfortunate. I think, Sir, there is room for concern for pa~ients, ~ith all due respect to the volunteers and the Police who are doing, I understand, a great service to these people, but I do not think you can replace the care of properly trained-personnel.

Sir, I think there is room for comp~o~ise. I am sure there is in any strike condition situation. There always is room for compromise. I would hope, Sir, that the union executive and the Treasury Board officials can get back together, can sit down and hopefully come to a satisfactory solution, Sir, at the earliest possible date. Sir, in closing I would like to say to the hon. member for St. George's (Mrs. Madss-ac) , and the han. member for Twillingate (lfr. Smallwood) that I certainly appreciate it, Sir, the very non-partisan, the ·very sensible approach they took to this, Sir, and I compliment :. them for it.

Thank you. MR. STI1MONS: .You were making a good speech. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. . ""'- «'{R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker,

furch 24, 1977 Tape no. 1268 Page 1 - NS }fr. Roberts. a · number of members on both ,sides have spoken in t~is petition and much of what needs to be said has been said and so I wili not repeat that. Even so, Sir, in speaking in support of the petition I _ think there are still some points which could usefully and relevantly be made, and I shall endeavour to do so. First of all, Sir, let me say that the Premier asked rhetorically why t_he union would want to meet with him.

I think the answer to that must quite simply be that the Premier, of course, is head of the -administration and the administration are the group who may not be the employers of these people in law, but are the employers in fact. And we all know that no matter what the legal fictions may be 1 the reality of it is that the Treasury Board, Sir, and only the Treasury Board will dictate the settlement at least insofar as the . ·employer is concerned.

And so surely the most logical and proper thing for these people to do is to seek to meet with the Premier who is the head of the administration, the administration of which the Treasury Board is a part. I think they are right to do so. I regret that the Premier does not h~e either the Wisdom or the courage to do it. ·--Mr • ___ Sp_~a,k_e_t:_9- _the Hinister of Finance, when he spoke, made some refer~nce to :!:_~n-1y .tne·- union would act - ---· - responsibly.

Let it be said, Sir, that I for one - and I have --= not said a great deal publicly about this strike,althoug~ I have had a number of invitations to do so - I admire the way in which the strikers have conducted themselves. There have been one or two incidents. Of course, there have been. I assume there are some matters before the courts this afternoon growing out of the _ incide~ts here in the l~bby of the building ---~ yesterday. But I think, Sir, they have conducted themselves admirably and I admire their determination. I think the whole Province admires their determination, Sir, even those, and there

March 24, 1977 Tape no. 1263 Page 2 - mw Nr. Roberts. may well be some,who do not agree with the cause in which these employees are striking, admire the quiet and determined way in which .they.have gone about conducting their strike. Mr. Speaker, along those lines, too, and I have said this in the House in comment upon ministerial statements, I think the ~-linister of Finance early on in one or two of his statements, Sir, was unnecessarily provocative and inflammatory and I am very glad that he has no longer fallen into that trap; you know, if as I contend he earlier did.

Sir, the real issue in the strike - and the strike is a lawful one - the present administration made it so, and can hardly be heard now to complain about that. You know the Minister of Fiaance was close to complaining about it,but I mean the fact remains it is a perfectly lawful strike. It is not a breakdown of the collective bargaining process, Mr. Speaker. A strike is a normal and integral part of the collective bargaining process. If it cannot be settled by negotiation, it is settleq by strike.

And the strike in that sense, Sir, can hardly be considered to be anything other than what it is, the ultimate ~esolution, the ultimate peaceful and peaceable resolution in a bargaining process. Now, Sir, I have every sympathy for the strikers at the Waterford, and ·I think the request of the prayer of the --p-etitTon- is a very sensible · one and I support it. This is net the place to _get into detailed comment. I wish ':•T.e could and perhaps we will be allowed to in the debate.

But, Sir, let me say that the issue in the strike, as I understand it now, is the pension plan in respect not af all the employees but in respect of approximately 300 employees, the men and the women 3527 -. -=

}~arch 24, 1977 Tape no. 1268 Page 3 - mw Hr. Roberts. who are in contact "Ylith the more dangerous patients, , and I think that is an accurate description. Now, Sir, I think that ive .in this Province should have every . . . sympathy with these people. The issue of whether or not they can strike is a false one~because they strike lawfully because of the rights given them by this House at the request of the present administration.

The fact remains, Sir, that we as a society ask these men and these women to be responsible for the care and for the protection, both from themselves and pr?tecting us from the patients,of men and women whose mental illness is so great that 1:hey cannot be handled by any other institution, incltiding in most cases the penitentiary.

It is a fact, as I understand it, that when prisoners become impossible to be handled within the prison system, Sir, they are brought to Waterford and they are confined there, legally confined there, exactly · as if they were in a jail.,and the men and the ~vomen •.vho must look out to them, Sir, must do so in conditions that the warders find beyond their capability._ That being so, .MI. Speaker, it seems to me, both common justice --· - . 3528

Harch 24, 1977 Tape ~Jo. 1269 m1 - 1 MR. ROBERTS: and right that these people should be given pay and pension benefits equal to those given to the warders. I think, Sir, that follows, I think it is as crystal clear as can be. I think, Sir, that the cause is just. I think the cause is right. I do not knm·7 the details. I do not kno1.; the details of the offers and I have no way to be privy to them.

But I think, Sir, if we as a society ask the men and the women who work in those wards at the Waterford Hospital to be responsibl~ for the care of patients, to protect the patients from themselves and each other and to pro.tect us from the patients, Sir, we have got to be prepared to compensate them on the same basis and in the same way as we are prepared to compensate the men who at the penitentiary- and I might add the penitentiary, Sir, is I guess a medium security institution at most. It is not a maximum s'ecurity insitution

whereas many of the patients at Waterford are those who should be confined and can only be confined to a maximum sec~~~y institutuion. . . If they. are to.o .dangerous to be looked after at the penetitiary we put them in the Waterford and I think that should be recognized, Sir. Now, Hr. Speaker, the strike has gone on for five weeks. Neither side seems to have come a long way towards bargaining with the exception of whatever was in the offer that came yesterday. And I do not knmv what was in that offer. It has not been made public as yet.

Both sides dug themselves in early on, Sir, . . a danger which we attempted. to point out, perhaps una1loidable in the circumstances but nonetheless a danger YThich has led to a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. I wonder if the time has ~orne ~o try to get both 3529

~tarch 24, 1977 Tape No. 1269 ~f- 2 ~ffi. ROBERTS : ~arties back. The Clerk has reminded me_, ~fr. Speaker, that my five minutes has expired,but the Premier went ~o1ell beyond five minutes,_ Sir, and I would ask by leave I might ~-the Premier went well beyond five minutes, and we did not object, nor should we have. Mr. Speaker, the strike has gone on for five weeks, as I have said, and I wonder if the time has not come when we might see if w·e can find a way out of the fact that both sides have dug in. Until yesterday neither side seemed to have_ moved very far from their original positions.

I do not like compulsory arbitr-ation, and I even less like binding arbitration because it is not a solution, it is a breakdown of the bargaining process. But I wonder, Sir, if perhaps the time has come for an independent enquiry into it. Let us settle for once and for all the issues as to exactly what can be done. All we are talldng now is a relatively small amount of money. I am not suggesting the strike be postponed. These men and these women have stuck it out for five weeks of Winter.

I think one could admire the determination and as long as they act within the law, and they are, then they should be certainly allowed and encouraged to carry on until they are satisfied. I d_o not know if just getting the two parties together is going to work,as has been suggested~unless both parties are ready to bargain,and bargain means give and take. The union have apparently changed their position and at;e -more amenable. -! do not know whether the government have. I do not know whether there is any movement possible. But what about an independent enquiry, ·:!r. Speaker?

What about a third party of .some stature who could l~ok at the situation and say, tn an advisory way, I am not suggesting in a binding way, Yes. these men and women have a cause- which is what I believe- or alternately, No, they do not "')s-o v ..J -~

March 24, 1977 Tape No. 1269 ~1R. ROBERTS: have a cause. They should not get anything more than has been offered, which essentially is what the government have . said up until at least today. Mr. Speaker, that is not a binding solution,but in my view a binding solution is not an adequate one. It is a powerful force upon public opinion and in this strike, as in so many others, Sir, public opinion will be the final motivating force.

The fact that the strikers have . had such wide public support as is shown by 3,00o" sign~tures affixed to the petition before the House, Sir, is surely evidence that they .have a lot of ·support. It surely helped them to carry on, you know,to keep their morale up. They received a lot of support, and so has the hospital I guess with volunteers coming in, some of them being paid, others not, with the police in and so forth and so on. m1- 3 But nobody will win the way it goes now. I think the Minister of Finance would agree with that. If there is any way to break the impass,let us.

The big question pow is saving face~as so oft~ in . ~hese cases. Per~aps . an independent par ty-- ~f~tature, who could quickly look at it, receive representations from both sides and say, "In my judgement, in my o~inion, these men and these women do have a case and that case should be recognized." I put that forward because I want to see it resQ~~~d~and also I say candidly because I think the strikers have a good case. I do not know w~ether you could go right up to the warders. Perhaps . the problem came years ago when the warders' pension plan ought 3531. .--

March 24, 1977 Tape 1270 Page· 1. ~ffi.ROBERTS: to have been separated from the firemen and policemen's pension plan. That is something that was looked at when I was in the administration. The present minister of Justice,as I recall it, was in the Cabinet. t.Je looked at it and for one reason or ano.ther we decided not to make the break then . Perhaps it should tave been made. But it was not and it is not. But, Sir, the problem is that the Waterford Hospital is a hospital unlike any other in this province.

This particular group of strikers surely have a clai~ unique , Ibgr~ is no other -group in this province like it and .I think, Sir, that that should be recognized. · I support the petition, ~~r. Speaker, and in so doing I hope that the discussion in support of it here in the House, not a debate, but the discussion that v7e have been allowed in support of it,Sir,. under the rules will help to resolve it. I think it is much too important,! think it has gone on much too long. Nobody can win now.

It is time we began thinking about the people of the province, patients at the hospital,, instead of just the union and the government, the two sides,and a difficult and a long dispute. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR.SPEAKER: The minister of Finance. MR.DOODY: I have a motion,Sir, relative to Supply • I hereby ......._____ '-\ "--\ give notice Mr. Speaker that I will on tomorrow move that the Ron. House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to ' consider certain .resolutions for the granting of Interim Supply to Her Majesty. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister for Rural and Industrial Development.

I\._ MR.LUNDRIGAN: I have Question 164 by the member for LaPoile. member for LaPolle as well._ Question 132. fo_~~!le_1!1~~beL:fQJ::..1~_oi_le...!>._ He must be writing a book himself. Question 133, the member for LaPoile-. · -..... ORAL QUESTIONS: Hori. Leader of the Opposition. --- . ffi.. ROBE~TS : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance . 3532

MARCH 24 ,_ 1977 Tape 127() Page 2. MR. ROBERTS: and grows out of the notice which he gave of Interim Supply a moment or so ago. fn excellent editorial~by the way~in the Telegram. E~~~-~lent!... excellent'! _ In othe r words, I agree with it, Mr. Speaker, can the m;i..nister - tell us ~~hether he has yet decided on the -- date on which he will present to the House his budget for the- 1977-78 fiscal year, the year ~vhich.will begin the first of _ne.xt month? ~.SPEAKER: The minister of Finance . MR.DOODY: No, Mr. Speaker, regretfully I cannot give the date. MR.SPEAKER: A supplementary.

MR.ROBERTS ·. b ·1 1 St -· 1 it is .J·ust . that I want to · follow it I will not . e o~--- _ ev~ , thro~gh. Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell us if he can give us any idea when he might be in a position to do it1 We are now in a very unenviable position. I know the minister does not like the position he is in where he aas to ask for Interim Supply, Supply on account without any indication of~hat the total expenditure will be. Can -the minister tell us whether we might know within the next day or so when the budget will be presented? MR. SPEAKER: Han.

Minister • I MR.DOODY: I do not think I will be in a position the next day or so, Sir. I would hope that I will be in a position early -next week, but once again I cannot depend on that. MR.SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. ROBERTS:. By way of , I hope,allowed preface 1the practice in this House, Sir, has been to table the estimates at the same time as the ' Budget is tabled; even if they are too separate matters in parliamentary practice. There - is no --rule requiring it.

In fact, in many legislatures, including particularly that in Ottawa,the . estimates are tabled and the budget comes in at a different time altogether. in view of the fact that we will not have the budget until into the next financial year, by which point we already have been asked to and presumably will have in fact voted Interim Supply, is _the minister prepared to table the estimates Sir, the e~ timates of exnenditure~as opposed to the revenue side with which the budget deals?

Is the minister prepared to table -----------------------the estimates and expenditure now,or as quickly as they can be printed . 3533 - ----

March 24, 1977 Tape 1270 Page 3. MR.ROBERTS: and then we will have the budget when he is able to present it. I realize the pressure is on him. I realize that it will take him a few days yet to prepare and to present a budget to the House. MR.SPEAKER: The minister of Finance. MR.DOODY: I would like to be able to follow the tradition of the House and table the budget and the estimates togethe ·r .. If conditions : as such .that that cannot be done then I will certainly -consider the hon .• Leader's suggestion. But at the present time our intention is do· bo.th. s imul taneous .ly- MR.

SPEAKER The hon." member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister of Mines and Energy care to straighten the House out on this very serious, these very serious charges that have been made by the hon~ Mr. Gillespie, federal minister of mines,in connection with the next move being I, ......_ up to the province as far as ~~loratlon ~or gas and oil off Labrador is concerned,and tha L . -- p . =- ~ : - · ~ -· 3534

March 24, 1977 Tape 1271 JM- 1 MR. NEARY: stringent regulations that have been put forward by the province? MR.. SPEAKER: The· hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. - --- MR. PECK.FORD: Mr. Speaker, I find myself in a very difficult position on this issue for a whole bunch of reasons . which are not funny or humerous either. I do not quite understand the position that the minister in Ottawa is taking. The Federal Government and the Ministry of Energy, Mines and Resources are not aware of the nature of·our regulations. The regulations . are still being discussed with major oil and · gas companies who come down to St.

John's most times and sometimes ·our people go to Ottawa or some central location. We are still on that kind ·of discussion. We are fairly well along the road. So therefore because Mr. Gillespie is not aware of the regulations,! find it . hard to understand how he can make a . ~alue j_udg~e~t based on them. These discussions are still ongoing. The major consortium that has been doing exploration activity off our coast, Labrador Coast,have not indicated to us categoric::ally one way or the other whether they. will drill. .

So the-refore I find it very difficult to understand the statemen~s originating from Ottawa on yesterday. But that is what the status of it is right now. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary by the original questioner. MR. NEARY: Is the minister aware that Mr. Gillespie made a statement that the Federal Government, the Government of Canada, were prepeared to. give s.ome assurances to Eastcan in connection -----= --- -------~~~-------with Federal regulations but that the province would not budge - ~ -as a matter of fact the province had not made any recommendations -at all? Is this a fact or,you know - MR.

PECKFORD: I do not know if the hon. member understood my ""-\ previous answer. I do not know where the hon. minister in Ottawa is getting his information-and I can only say that discussions~as . 3535

March 24, 1977 .Tape 1271 JM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: was in the previous debate a few minutes ago on a few petitions, important petitions,as was indicated when two sides are still sitting down across the table that means that there is flexibility on both sides,And if you want me to be more definitive that means that there is flexibility on our side and that we are being flexible and hopefully that is why all the companies are still discussing this major piece of.legislation or regulation with them. So I would have to say that Mr.

Gillespie~s statement relative to our not being flexible; us being inflexible~ is not true from the information that I know and · th~ way that we are conducting these ongoing negotiations with the companies. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementarj. MR. NEARY: Sir, would the minister tell the House if anybody in the government, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs or the minister himself,has been in touch with Mr. Gillespie over this situation because Is the minister aware that Mr.

Gillespie is saying that Eastcan cannot wait very much longer and instead of ~pending $60 million off our coast this year they will be · spending $30 million? Would the minister enlighten the House? First of all, has anybody been in touch with him to try and straighten him out? MR. PECKFORD: Yes, I can answer the question relative to that, Mr. Speaker. Mr •.

Gillespie has phoned me and has wired me and we had discussion~ _on th~ _ phone and he subsequently telexed me, but they were not on matters concerning the oil _and gas regulations primarily because we are into confidential. negotiations between · the Government of Newfoundland and the companies concerned. They are on other matters dealing with hydro development and so on. So I just do not understand it. The negotiations are ongoing,or discussions ongoing with the compani-es.- I think in the last three . 3536

March 24, 1977 Tape 1271 MR. PECKFORD: or four days we met with British Petroleum, AMACO and Mobil, for example, for the second or third time and we believe t:hat progress ·is being made. ·We are still trying to keep to a very tight timetable and things from our point of view are going fairly 'Qtell. We remain flexible an-4 we indicate this to the companies and where we are at right now is at the very guts and detail of the regulations.

The first couple of meetings obviously would be preliminary,as all such meetings are over major items like these~ . and now we ~re right into the guts of the situation. · We feel optimistic that we are gping to be able to meet the kinds 3537 JM - 3 ~· _; -- - ·- ·....:::

-\ "'\ March 24, 1977 Tape no. 1272 Page 1 - mw Mr. Peckford. of deadlines that we have set for this Spring. And the federal government to my knowledge - Y±. Gillespie has not - :... only on hydro development and other matters that are common to both oil and gas pricing and so on - there is nothing written nor nothing in conversations on the --telephone only public statements from }~. Gillespie on our -regulations . ~fR. NEARY A final supplementarv. NR. SPEA.T<ER: A final supplementary. The han. member for LaPoile and the the han. member for Eagle River. HR.

NEARY: Dcr I understand the minister correctly then that this is not a jurisdictional dispute at the moment as Mr. Gillespie -i~-indicatrng? The government are flexible. Hould --~-- - ......... - ·---· -- -- - -. the -min:l.ster-felr the ·House; reassure the House, that the m-inister has not - - - - - - - --- - - -- - - - dug in and is waiting for a _supreme court decision on jurisdiction, that this is not the case? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, that is not the case.

The jurisdictional disp:ute hangs eve~ all of it, of course, but we are working together with the Federal Justice Department for jo~nt re~~r ~ce onyhe jurisdictional dispute. But because there is a jurisdictional dispute that means that obviously Newfoundland must be maintaining ownership. And if it is maintaining that kind of juri~diction then, therefore, it must concretely and tangibly show that.

And one way in which we not only must do it in principle,but if we really feel about it at all,is t~ go ahead beyond the jurisdiction; stage and say, Here are the regulations that ' will govern this kind of activity which is within our jurisdiction as we have been maintaining all along. MR. SPEAKER: The 'han. member for Eagle River. MR. S TRACHAL~ : Is the guts of the issue that you are referring to , is this dealing with the exploitation side of the development, that is the permits and so on which will be given - I . 3538 ,.._ ! · - ~ ---

March 24, 1977 Tape no. 1272 Page 2 - mw HR. STRACHAN: to them to develop the wells rather than the exploration? I mean is the guts of the issue iri. the exploitatTon permits? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: That is a very difficult question. I do not want him to _g~:t __ int_o __ detail, and I am sure the hon. member ~ ~s not trying to get me into detail on regulations that ~are not published. But I know it is difficult for him to ask questions, and not sort of come ~.l,ose _on the periphery of-getting into the very area that- neith,er one _ o~ us want to get into.

After saying that which means very little - the guts of the regulations surround both exploration and production. And I do not know - if you had the saw-off I suppose it would be sixty/forty in favour of production perhaps, or if you want to talk about production the thing also - the revenue scale also as being part of that. But it is difficult to answer a question, Is production more important -in the regulations that exploration? Both of them are pretty important so I would not want to come down hard on either -----~ one or the other. MR. STRACHAN: ---A ~~tWplementary;-Mr~--speaker.- -_- -- MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. member for Eagle Eiver. MR. STRACHAN: I have asked h~ a n~ber of times. I would love to get into it. But could the mlnist~ndicate to us when we could see . these ·regulations? Because I think it is fundamentally important these regulations for this Province and I would like to see these regulations made public so we can all' discuss them rather than just the government and the companies. 3539

March 24, 197 7 Tape no. 1272 Page 3 - mw MR.. SPEAKER : The hon. minister. MR.. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I really want to respond to that, and I could not agree with the han. member more. I could not agree .with him·more; And we have said publicly I have said publicly, and government, on behalf of government and everything else that we will make them public and give everybody a chance,also>to get their input into it.

I am sure the han. member realizes and recognizes - and the reason why his questions have been ninety-nine per cent fair on this whole issue since it has arisen in this session of the House .::. that we thought it advisable,. and I am sure all members agree,that with such major regulations that it was incumbent upon us to sit down7 in the first instance> with the companies who have a lot of experience, and with some consultants, who are doing work for us, to get some feeling as to where we were in relation to the companies, and then make them public and then get other public reaction.

In short, briefly, succinctly as I can, we are still hitting a timetabl~ for making them public and even haying them law before the end of .:t.Iay.. MR. • STRACHAN : One final supplementary,- Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: I will recognize one further supplementary I and then the han. member for Port au Port. MR. STRACHAN: Could you assure us in ·sol!le way that these are preliminary discu~sions and that . there is nnthing __ being --conceded in t hese discussions . which the Province does not know anything about :.... there is nothin being conceded in these regulations?- --MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR.

PECKFORD: All the negotiations are taken into account, all the concerns, details, big briefs, wha~ever, and there is nothing to be conceded in these regulations until everybody has had a chance to have a crack at them. l'llL SNALLHOOD,: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. 3540 ~ _·

i T March 24, 1977 Tape 1273 JM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: . W!_li._ the draft regulations when they are finally agreed,if they are, between the government and the company concerned. · Will the ~ be brought before the House - -·· -and will they be subject to approval of the House? MR. PECKFORD: The regulations are to be made under the existing legislation which is the Oil and Gas Act. MR.. SMALLWOOD: So they will merely be tabled the ·next session. MR..

PECKFORD: Yes but what we are hoping to do before that time is to have them out in white paper and give everybody a chance to discuss them. I am hoping that before the House closes that then I can table them also in the House. MR. SMALLWOOD: On white paper first though? MR. PECKFORD: Oh, yes. No questioni no question! In the same· way - ~! ~nyb~~Y; Mr. Speaker, I might just be allowed the license to say, would read the latest ·. speech from 1 I think.,. the head of .

Tech Corporation in which he lauded 'the Newfoundland Government for the way that they have gone about their revamping of ~Eheir mineral legislation over · the last couple of years in contrast to the way other provinces have- that we ·want to maintain that kind of reputation within .. this country and why in the mineral acreage tax I have tried to follow that in the last month and will continue to do so lt:h r~ugh the~e regula~ions. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: ' A question for the han. the Minister of Education.

Is the minister aw_are· of .. any move _by Canada Manpower to cut down ,... on the manpower seats in the BTSD programme at the Bay St. George Community College? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that specifically. I ~know that the Manpower Needs Committee have been discussing the matter of the BTSD training·for several · weeks now. I do not have anything specific on that particular area but I will try to find 3541. - ~-- .. -

March 24, 1977 Tape 1273 MR. HOUSE: out some details on it. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. HODDER: I h~ve another quest~on on the same topic of the ~BTSD programme. Is it the policy of his department to move some . \ of the seats out of Stephenville and redistribute t~em around · the province? This is a rumour that ~ have heard. I ask the minister to confirm or deny it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Well that is a rumour yet) as far as I am concernedJ but I will check into it ·because as I just mentioned there are ongoing discussions about it now.

Last year we did distribute some of the manpower seats around the province but we have not gone into that detail yet and I will have that information when it is available. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. CALL.AN: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health a · question t~at I ask him last year.

Is it the intention of the Minister of Health or the adminis t·ra:tion to bring in- legislation,in this present session -of the House 1 to change the rules and regulations whereby many, many people throughout this -province can be permitted to obtain birth certificates? As the -- -legislation and the rules and regulations now stand older people cannot obtain birth certificates• Is there a plan to change the legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS : Mr ..

Speaker, the hon. member and myself have had JM- 2 \ several discussions on this and I know the problem which he refers to, and, it maybe· ·tri.th the_ others> but the whole thing is being looked at in the department,and within the Department of Justice,and hopefully we can find the prop.er solution to it~· MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. gentleman from Stephenville. 3542 - -:'-

March 24, 1977 Tape 1273 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier, Sir. Would the bon. Premier inform the House if the Roman Corporation have had any luck with the British banks ~in getting a nfne~y .day o p~ i on ~n· ~ ~e-cli l refinery at \ Come by Chanc-e? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. MR. MOORES: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker; 1 there is no ninety day option on the oil refinery by anyone at this time. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. JM- 3 MR. NEARY: A supplementary question.

Would the bon. the Premier also tell the House if the Roman Corporation have a: crude oil credit contract with I ~ ~ · or any other country · that supplies oil? MR • . SPEAKER! The hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: I know of no firm contract, Mr. Speaker. I might ~say that the Roman Corporation ~eo~~ we~e ·in to· see · us before going ~er to see the British Government.

They outlined what was,in essence)the bare bones of a proposal as to the· way they thought they would approach,hopefully,developing the Come by Chance Refinery. ·~~~ · there has been no specific -contracts or obligations or undertakings to my knowledge by ourselves? . ~f that stops the other questions that are coming.~hat is the answer • . MR.~ SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister tell the H,ouse whether or not the Roman Corporation have entered into an a~reeme~.t with 3543 -·-- ~.::

March 24, 1977 Tape No. 1274 ~- 1 MR. NEARY: an oil company called E-1-f, Elf, a French , company to manage the oil refinery at Come By Chance~ ~m. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER HOOPES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker, but I doubt ~ they have entered into a contract to manage the oil refinery when they do not have the rights to operate it. - ?-!R. NEARY : A final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. ~- SPEAKER: Final supplementary. ~ ---=~1R::.;.,:.. • ....;};_;,;:ffi~AJ:.;;:_R;.;;;Y..;..: _ Would the Premier tell the House-then whether or not the Roman Corporation have found any Greek money· to operate tankers, in connection with the oil refinery at Come By Chance~ K PREl'UER MOORES: The same answer -Jiir. ~. SMALLWOOD: ~fR. SPEAKER : The answer is no. I recognize the han. member for Bellevue for one supplementary, and then the han. member for Stephenville. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is also directed to the Premier.

Can the Premier indicate to· th,e House at what point in time down the road he may be . in a position to make some kind of a definitive statement regarding the future of the Come By Chance refinery. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. ~PREMIER MOORES: ·I have no idea what point in time down -\ the road, Hr. _ Spea~er, but .as soon as we get the proposal -that is beneficial to the people of this Province we will be accepting it and announcing it. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. memqer for Stephenville. Iv!R. MCNEIL: }!r.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Mun~cipal Affairs and Housing. · Since ~ewfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation d-oes not come under The Landlord Tenancies - -- Act, do any rent increases by the Housing Corporation need Cabinet approval ? __ And if so ~·1hen did it receive its approvaH ~ 3544 -= :. ----

~rarch 24, 1977 Tape No. 1274 l.-m - 2 ::~. SPE.A..KER: The hon. Hinister of Municipal Affairs Housing. :·ffi. DINN: No, it is just subject to the approval of the minister I believe. . . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Stephenville. :'1R. HC~iEIL: A supplementary, I did not get the answer. I did not hear the ans-,;ver. }JR. DINN: Tney send the application to the minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HR. MCNEIL: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

MCNEIL: In this case 'tvhat recourse do .. the tenants have for --~ any rent increases_,. _ . :..1£.:" it is just in the minister's ha~ ~ _MR __ : __ s_P~EA __ KE_R __ : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. :HR. DINN: If they are approved by the minister they can meet with the minister~as they have in Stephenville's case 1 and discuss it. But there is no recourse as I understand it. MR. SPEAKER: · The hon. member for St. George's. -MRS. MACISAAC: A g.tiestio~ for the Hinis _ter of Hunicipal_ Affairs and Housing.

Could the minister tell the House if his department is taking any action, or looking into the fees charged by consultants, specifically on 'vater and · -s~werage projects? MR. SEEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are always reviewing the fees with consultants and it is a continuous progress. MRS • MACISAAC : A supplementary,. Mr. SP.~~!<er. MR. SPEAKER: A. supplement~ry. }ffiS. MACISAAC: Could the minister tell the House if there is any investig-ation oi ng on right now into the water and i sewerage project in St.

Geor_ge 1 s, with respe~t to engineering fees ; consultant fees, .' or -contract claims? ~fR. SPE~\KER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing~ MR. DIN}T: Mr. Speaker, yes there is a departmental investigation. 354~ ---- ! - . --

March 24, 1977 Tape No. 1274 NM- 3 ~fRS. HACISAAC: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HRS. HACISAAC: Could the minister tell the House if there has been any withholding of funds for the reconstruction of the road in St. George's, replacing of pavement1 MR. SPE.lu<ER: The hon. Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing. ~- DINN: I will have. to take that or..e as-=. not_ice, Hr. Speaker. XR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. _ ~KR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker·, a question· tc the Premier. v7ould the Premier comment on the statements, both-public· statements) printed and verbal,that the refinery at Come By Chance is rusting to a point that the rusting and deterioration at this point would - it is gone to a point where it could adversely affect the eventual sale of that refinery? ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER ~IOORES: Hr. Speaker, that is ne,ws to me and it is news ~o t~e government. We have had no report to that effect whatsoever. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir, -followed by the han. member for LaPoile, and the hen. member for Bellevue. MR. STI1MONS: Mr. Spea~er, the Minister of Tourism, _he is not around.~ ~erhaps the Premier in the absence of the Hini s ter of Finance, I had a questio~ for the Minister of Finance,if he is within the hearing of my voice,although it is a question that I am, sure the Premier may ~e familiar with I -v10uld think. A question -to the Premier in October 1975_the government, specifically Treasury Board 1 I believe, pr epared a debt profile, I believe that was the first time it had been done.

It was quite a volume and gave a fairly comprehensive profile of the government's debt position. I am wondering if such a document has been prepared since~ That one document was prepared in October 1975 which is now,you know,a year and-a-half ago and would therefore not be completely up-to-date, has a document been prepared since such as that or is one in the stages of being pre~ared? 3546 ,_. __

}f:arch ~4, 1977 Tape No. 1274 MR . SPEA-~R: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr . Speaker, as I assume the hon. member ~\ knows, p rospectus in every bond issue is a pretty th~h document t hese days when you go to the financial market,. · prospectus of the Province itself. As far as ·- 3547 NH - 4 -= -t --"'! -= ----

March 24, 1977 Tape 1275 IB-1 PREMIER MOOF.ES: the document he is referring to, whether that has been updated very recently. I will have to take notice of the question and ask the Minister of Finance· to answer it.· }4R. SPEA.KER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hen. the Premier. Would the. hen. the Premier tell the House what is happening now in connection with negotiations with the United States authorities in connection with the · Northside of the Argentia Naval Base? Iw'R. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIEF. MOORES: ~r.

Speaker, as the-House knovs the negotiations regarding the Nort~s~de have been very slow because of the tri-parted, 1 three government's involvement in trying to get the thing sprung loose. I understand the end of this month, within a few days, representation will be going to Ottawa to meet with officials there to start formalizing and finalizing the eventual disposal of the property. }fR_. NEARY: - A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Is the Premier saying then that the United States -- · authorities have turned the property back to the Governme~t of Canada --------- ~and it is only a matter now of working out the details with the Province? PREMIER MOORES : I think it has reached the stage, Mr. Speaker , where negotiations are reac~ing the final stage and this is why we are going to Ottawa, to try to bring that into a .finalized posi~ion. As soon'~s we come ·back we ·will gladly give the House a report.

But ~ ~ I know the hon. member -realizes how confused and complicated those ~egotiations have·been at. all level~ and all departments, because there have been many departments, MOT, External Affairs, many groups have been involved in these particular negotiations. I think finally it is getting down to where- definitive steps-can be taken. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Sir. -r-·fF.. SPEAKEP: A supplementary, the original questioner. NEARY: Would the Premier tell the House if this Province, the 3548 -- ~ --

Harch 24, 1977 Tape 1275 IB-2 MR. NEAPY: government, have asked the United States authorities to put a freeze on demoliti on:- on tearing down all the buildings on the --Northside until the negotiations·are complete? ~!R. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PRE}qER ~CORES: I will have to take notice of that, Mr. Speaker~ I ~not know_ that. ~ MR. FLIGHT: A supplem.entary, Mr. Speaker. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The bon. gentleman for W~ndsor- Buchans and then I will recognize the bon. member for Bellevue followed by Conception Bay South time-permitting. ~.

FLIGHT: Would the Premier indicate if the properties that the on. member is referring to, the United States properties, is involved in the proposa~ that the ¥inister of Transportation has set forth with regards to rerouting the tractor-trailer trucks from Port aux Basques to Argentia? PRE1AIEP. MOORES : I do not think so, Mr. Speaker, no. MF. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: . Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Forestry, has any consideration been given to changing or. extending the dates during which cutting permits, the cutting of fire wood an so on ~are being issued ar will be issued.

Right now I think the deadline is }'farch 31. Is there any thought given to extending that or changing it? ~-!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry. I MR. MAYNARD: No there is no thought in changing it at this time, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. gentleman can come up with some specific reason why>I would be willing to consider it. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? KR. CALLAN: Hr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer and I want to debate it on Peter Gzowski. -----------~- SPEAKE~: The bon. member for Conception Bay South.

NOLA..~: A question for the ~inister of Transportation and Co~unications, - 3549 - - -----~

March 24, 1977 Tape 1275 IB-3 ~. NOLAN: ~r. Speaker. In view of the current mail strike in this Province I am wondering if the minister is in a position, Mr. Speaker, to provide us with some information regardin·g motor registration. That is I understand the cutoff date that we all have to have licenses is about the twenty-eighth, I believe,of this month. And in view of the mail strike, and so on,licenses I would ' think and plates are tied up in the mail. l~at contingency plans or extensions, if any, does the minister have to cope with this current situation? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Transportation. _::s;· MORGAN: Mr. Speaker,::!.t is obvious that the three day old postal strike in St. John's is definitely going to have an effect on the t registration "of the motor vehicles around the Province and particularly the rural outport areas of the Province who ha.ve to mail their applications for licenses or registration. So I am watching the situation closely. I am hoping that the postal strike or wildcat st~ike, whatever it is, here in St. ~ohn's will be over tonight.

But if not tomor~ow we will have to make a decision with regards to the deadline, whether or not they are extending the deadline beyond March 31 or the possibility of arranging a means whereby a- person I . - . . . --· ··~~ can show evidence that they have made application by means of money order, etc. to using that as authority to operate a vehicle or drive the_ir vehicle. So pending on the outcome of the strike situation in St. John's, the postal strike this evening, tomorrow a definite .. decision will be made by the department as to what will be done with regards to the registration~ MR.

NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ¥R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Original questioner. MR. NOL.AN: Just as a matter of clarification. Is the minister saying that there will be· an announcement here in the Rouse tomorrow on this situation? ~. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the House will be informed tomorrow 3550 - .. 4.;::;, -- = --~·

March 24, 1977 Tape 1275 IB-4 ¥R.. MO GAN: afternoon or tomorrow m.o:tning whichever sitting we have what the decision is of the department. The-h9n. me~er fpr·- ~urin- Placentia West. ¥R.. SPF..AKER: ~ CAmliNG: ~·directed at Mr. Speaker, I have a question about questions to the Minister of Pub lie Vorks. -~ ·- - :::.-. ----~

March 24, 1977, Tape 1276, Page 1 -- apb MR. CANNING: tast year I presented several questions to the Minister of Public Works at that time. I did not get any replies, but the situation was that the minister was ill during most of the session.- On Tuesday, February 8, of this session the questions appeared again on the Order Paper directed to the · - - -- ---... ,..-· --· Minister of Public Works, and my question is, of course, do I expect an answer?

Has anything been done on those questions?. · - - - - -- Does he have his officials looking up the statistics that I have ~~~d for, or the information I have asked for? If so, when does he expect to have the·answers come to the House? MR. ROUSSEAU: Is the han. member speaking about one ~articular question _Cn: all the questions that be has asked? There is more than o~e, is there? MR., CANNING: All the questions I asked in relation to the Department of Public Works. MR.

ROUSSEAU: Yes, the officials are doing them and as soon as we get them - it looks like we ar~ trying to answer all xe questions for the bon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), but that· is not the case. As they come tcr the minister's .desk, of course,. - ' they are tabled. MR. NEARY: You are only answering the easy ones. MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not know. I know the hon. litember asked one question about the civil servants, the names or the classifica~ions and that, which is not in the Department of Public 'Works.

The only possible. way that could be done would be through .. the Department of Finance and those questions would then be forwarded to the appropriate departemnt. But as soon as the quest .iens arrive on any minister's desk they are tabled in the House immediately. As soon as I have the answers to any one or all of the hon. member's questions, they certainly will be tabled in the House, yes. 3552 ---- . . -- ~

March 24, 1977, Tape 1276, Page 2 -- apb ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I would like permission of the House, and I k~ow it is late,. I was not he.re-, unfortunately, when the . ~Ministerial Statements were given. It is regarding the seal hunt -- ~nd an action, I think, that we as a House should take, and as a government. But I need the unanimous consent before I -can say it~ MR. SPEAKER: Do hon. members agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The bon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I think most newspapers and most people feel very seriously about the fact that the seal hunt, even though it is reaching a conclusion, in preparation for next year and to offset the adverse publicity that is particularly SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: I have set u~a group to bring together a programme covering all aspects of it and when I do get it I certainly, together with my colleagues and Opposition members, I will . gladly pursue the approac~ that that should take.

But in the meantime, Sir, there has been, in the House of Representatives in the United States,a unanimous resolution passed condemning the seal hunt and I~ sure that was_. done witho~t the people of the u.s. House of Representatives realizing what ramifications and exactly what it is they were involved in. On the strength of that I today wired the President, Mr. Carter, Senator Kennedy and the House Leaders of the two Houses and other relevant people, and I can table this or I can read it into the record or whatever the House - MR.

ROBERTS : If the Premier would read it into the l:~cord - PREMIER MOORES : Okay~ 3553 - --.:-...,

March 24~ 1977, Tape 1276, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: "The purpose of this telegram is to express my concern and the concern of my government that the resolution approved by your House of Representatives condemning . . .our seal hunt on the .East Coast of Canada is based upon a totally inadequate understanding of the facts. I would be grateful if you will arrange for this communication to be tabled in your House of Representatives and in the Senate. I wish to place the following observations on the record so that the issues surrounding our seal hunt can be better understood.

It should be recognized that the seal hunt has a long history of tradition in this Province and that the great controversy surrounding the hunt has been perpetrated by individuals and groups whose intent is mischievous to say the least. It is my intention to deal with the management of the resource~ the economic importance~ and the need for the hunt, and the method of killi~. One, on the question of management · it should be noted that scientific advice is provided by internationally recognized experts in the fields of seal biology and population · dynamics.

In undertaking an assessment of the resource, our scientists in Canada work very closely with their counterparts in Norway and Denmark. - In addition,management advice has been sought from an independent committee which is composed of· sci en tis ts·, veterinarians, and various members of humane societies. The ·total allowable catch for 1977 has been set 167,000 seals, in view of the fact that this level of harvesting will not damage present seal stocks •. It is important that the seal stocks be kept within ~nageable size in relation to the fish · resources upon which seals are dependent for food.

If the number of seals is allowed to increas~ with no killing, or without other constraints, then there 3554 - . -·-~

March 24~ 1977, Tape 1276, Page 4-- apb PREMIER MOORES: will be au imbalance in the eco-system between seals and fish. You will appreeiate that the fishing indus cry is extr~ly ~porta,nt to . our_ Province~ and that · seals are a predator of fish. Excessive international fishing efforts in our wa.ters has severely depleted our fish stocks ·so th.at it is -- --- ·-- ~ ·- --·· -·-... --......_. " -: - ~

Harch 24, 1977 Tape no. 1277 Page 1 - mw Premier Moores. seal stocks be kept at levels which t-rill allm-r regeneration of fish stocks.

(2) It is impossiBle to assess the importance of sealing in ~ewf?undland without also considering the_ social and economic conditions which exist in this Province. You must realize that our population is scattered our thousands of miles of heavily indented coastline. This resulted from . the fact that people settled in those areas with the greatest access to the resources of the sea. From an economic standpoint our· fishermen depend upon the freeu?m t~ engag~ ~~ a number of different fishing activities in order to achieve an acceptable standard of living.

Sealing is pursued at a time of year when it is virtually impossible for our fishermen to engage in other fishing activities. There are few alternative employment opportunities, particularly during the period of the seal hunt. The contribution of over $2 million which the seal hunt makes to the Newfoundland economy is therefore more highly valued than the cold statistics would suggest. Indeed this contribution provides the necessary income supplement for more than 5,000 seal hunters

(3) There has been a great deal of controversy with respect to the question of killing methods and the main reason as well if the method of killing is humane and whether it brings a quick and painless death to the animal, with the absence of psychological stress or fear. A variety of methods have been tried and the most humane method which has been: found for the killing of seal pups is clubbing with a wooden club. I am pleased to report that the Canadian seal hunt is now the best supervised and regulated animal killing operation in our society.

This fact is acknowledg _ed by reputable · _h~mane ·groups and societies in Canada. Seals are killed with clubs especially designed for this purpose and death is instantaneous. It is my firm conviction 3556 : . . - · -~

March 24, 1977 Tape no. 1277 1l'age 2 - mw PREMIER HOORES : · that the controversy which has arisen concerning the seal hunt has been deliberately 4reated by self-interested groups. These groups are deliberately using the attractive physical appearance and the emotional appealing - characteristics of the baby seal in their endeavour to arouse public sympathy ·and to finance their own pockets.

I am calling upon you to question the motives of those who are appea~ing to our emotional instincts in order to further their own material interests ~h~~gut I • • giving due-consideration to the slander thereby inflicted upon our fishermen, and indeed upon this Province. I am asking you to reconsider your resolution and I hope that this communication will enable you to weigh the issues concerning the seal hunt from a more balanced )?erspective." Mr. Speaker, that was the telegram that has been . sent to these various people. MR. ROBERTS : They may hold that as collateral.

PREMIER MOORES: The b~~nce of paYmen~ problem may be with us, Sir, but the telegram did go. And I did want to bring to the House's attention that the preparation for next year's controversy, if you like, I think we all have mutually -~~gether ~e responsibility to start to prepare now. But this particular even in the US, I did not feel it should go without being challenged, and that is why I restimulated the . teleg~am. SOHE HON. }!EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins)": Order, please! If the hon. Leader of the Opposition will permit me - MR. ROBERTS: Yes, of course. MR. SPEAKER (Dr.

Collins): -as it is five o'clock and according to Standin~ Order 31 I have to inform hon. members of the '· 3557 - ~-- --- .. - . ......_

!:-1arch 24, 1977 Tape no. 1277 Page 3 - mv Mr. Spea ker (Dr. Collins): matters to be debated on the adjournnent. Three subjects have been received, and in order of their receipt the - ~ hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) wishes to debate with the hon. Minister of Finance concerning the government's : refusal to fund the pensions of its employees and set them under a trusteeship with contributions and benefits ·established on sound actuarial principles. The second one, the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr._ Callan) wishes to debate with the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation with regard to the government's programme) or lack of it.) surr