Manitoba Hansard — 13 December 1999 (Sitting 13, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-13

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session -Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 13- 1:30 p.m., Monday, December 13, 1999

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCIIUK, Rosann, Bon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

485 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 13, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Education and Research Learning Information Networks for the period 1998-1999. Mr. Speaker: For the information of the Minister of Education and Training, we are presenting reports by standing and special committees. We will come to Ministerial State ments and Tabling of Reports.

Special Committee of Seven Persons Second Report Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Chairperson of the Special Committee of Seven Persons): Mr. Speaker, is there leave of the House to present the report of the Committee of Seven Persons? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present the Second Report of the Committee of Seven Persons. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Special Committee of Seven Persons, appointed to prepare a list of members of the standing committees ordered by the House, presents the following as its Second Report.

Your committee prepared the following list of members to compose the standing committees ordered by the House: Agriculture

(11) Messrs. Dewar, Dyck, Han. Mr. Lemieux, Messrs. Maguire, Nevakshonoff, Penner (Emerson), Penner (Steinbach), Schellenberg, Smith (Brandon West), Struthers, Han. Ms. Wowchuk Economic Development

(11) Mrs. Dacquay, Messrs. Derkach, Dewar, Han. Ms. Friesen, Mr. Jennissen, Han. Mr. Lemieux, Mr. Loewen, Hon. Ms. Mihychuk, Hon. Mr. Robinson, Messrs. Schuler, Smith (Brandon West) Industrial Relations

(11) Han. Mr. Ashton, Han. Ms. Barrett, Mr. Dewar, Ms. Korzeniowski, Messrs. Laurendeau, Loewen, Nevakshonoff, Pitura, Reid, Schuler, Smith (Brandon West) Law Amendments

(11) Han. Mr. Ashton, Ms. Asper, Han. Mr. Chomiak, Mrs. Dacquay, Han. Mr. Mackintosh, Messrs. Penner (Emerson), Penner (Steinbach), Rondeau, Schellenberg, Mrs. Smith (Fort Garry), Mr. Struthers Municipal Affairs

(11) Mr. Aglugub, Han. Ms. Barrett, Ms. Cerilli, Mrs. Dacquay, Mrs. Driedger, Han. Ms. Friesen, Mr. Loewen, Han. Mr. Mackintosh, Messrs. Martindale, Penner (Emerson), Smith (Brandon West) Private Bills

(11) Mr. Aglugub, Mrs. Dacquay, Mr. Jennissen, Han. Messrs. Lath/in, Mackintosh, Messrs. Reimer, Rocan, Santos, Schellenberg, Mrs. Smith (Fort Garry), Mr. Smith (Brandon West) Privileges and Elections

(11) Han. Messrs. Ashton, Caldwell, Ms. Ceri/li, Mrs. Dacquay, Han. Mr. Mackintosh, Han. Ms. Mihychuk, Mrs. Mitchelson, Messrs. Penner (Emerson), Rocan, Santos, Struthers Public Accounts

(11) 486 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1999 Ms. Allan, Han. Mr. Gerrard, Messrs. Loewen, Ma/oway, Penner (Steinbach), Reid, Reimer, Rondeau, Han. Messrs. Sale. Selinger, Mr. Stefanson Public Utilities and Natural Resources

(11) Ms. Asper, Messrs. Derkach, Dyck, Jennissen, Han. Mr. Lath/in, Mr. Ma/oway, Han. Ms. McGiff ord, Messrs. Penner (Emerson), Praznik, Reid, Han. Mr. Selinger Rules of the House

(12) Han. Mr. Ashton, Mrs. Dacquay, Mr. Dewar, Han. Mr. Gerrard, Ms. Korzeniowski, Mr. Laurendeau, Han. Mr. Mackintosh, Messrs. Martindale, Nevakshono.ff, Praznik, Reid, Rocan Statutory Regulations and Orders

(11) Ms. Allan, Ms. Cerilli, Messrs. Cummings, Dewar, Helwer, Korzeniowski. Han. Mr. Lemieux, Mr. Rocan, Han. Mr. Sale, Mr. Tweed, Han. Ms. Wowchuk Mr. Mackintosh: I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. *

(1335) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Education Research and Learning Information Networks for the period 1998-1999. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1998-99 Annual Report for Manitoba Health which includes the Annual Report of the Manitoba Health Services Insurance Plan, copies of which have been previously distributed.

I would also like to table the 1998-99 Annual Report for the Manitoba Health Research Council, copies of which have been previously distributed. I would like to table the 1998-99 Annual Report for the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, copies of which have been previously distributed. I would also like to table the 1998-99 Annual Report of Sport, copies of which have been previously distributed. Finally, I am pleased to table the Annual Report of the Health Information Services of Manitoba Corporation for the year ended March 31, 1999. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I have the honour to report that no Orders-in-Councils have been made pursuant to

Section 114 of The Insurance Act, R.S .M. 1987. c. 140, since the last session of the Legislature. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us today from St. Francois Xavier Community School fifteen Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Betty-Ann Tiltman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Morris (Mr. Pitura). Also, from Daniel Macintyre School, twenty-five Grade 11 students under the direction of Mrs. Connie Baker.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister for Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk). With us from Landmark Collegiate are twenty Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Greg Sawatzky. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Lemieux). With us from Morden Collegiate are forty Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Ron Peters. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

December 13 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 487 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Chemotherapy Treatment Hours of Operation Mr. Gary Filmon (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, last week in response to a number of questions by members on our side, the Minister of Health referred on numerous occasions to his government's news release of November 22. He said it had the answers to all of the questions that we might ask.

So we took the time to just review it thoroughly and on the second page it says: Effective immediately the number of chemotherapy treat ment hours offered per month by Cancer Care Manitoba's oncology day program will be doubled. In calling-not that we did not trust his word-Cancer Care Manitoba, we find that this has not happened, and so I ask the minister to explain why these hours have not been extended, as has been committed effective immediately in the November 22 news release. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for that question.

As the member knows, after assuming of fice, after only a number of weeks in office we met with all of the groups and organizations in the community and said what can we do to deal with the terrible devastation that has been left to us by the Conservatives in tenns of health care. What we did was put together a package of items and a short-tenn plan that would deal with the horrible issue of hallways. And I might add, on this day last year there were 52 people in Winnipeg's hospital hallways, and today, according to this morning's stats, we have only nine.

Fifty-two today's date last year, under that particular government. With respect to the specifics that were outlined by the Leader of the Opposition, I will take notice on that question and get back to him on that. * (1 340) Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the minister dodged the question, not terribly artfully 1 might say but he dodged the question, as he usually does. He refers to the fact that after the election they met with all these different groups. He made commitments about this issue during the election, but this is seven weeks after they took office.

November 22 he said effective immedi ately these beds would be open. We are infonned by Cancer Care Manitoba that that has not happened. So my question is: when will it happen? Is this just another one of these broken promises? Effectively immediately, not seven weeks from now, not four weeks from now, not after I have a chance to take a look. When is it going to happen? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, for a government that did not live up to any of its 19 95 election promises and was involved in some of the biggest fiascos that have ever been seen in this province, not only SmartHealth which was a cover-up by members opposite, I find it very strange that the fonner Premier did not have an opportunity to question us on that. But with respect to that particular issue, I want to point out to the member that we indicated we would get back with regard to the specifics of that particular issue.

I want to reiterate that, in our press release, we said that we would open and make the beds available as of December 1. Members opposite were saying, well, we had hope for tomorrow. We did provide hope to the people of Manitoba. We said we would end hallway medicine. We are going to live up to our claim, and that will happen in this province. Mr. Filmon: The member opposite, in his great arrogance, completely refuses or is unable to answer the question.

I am not talking about commitments in an election campaign, I am not talking about promises of future action, I am talking about a statement in the November 22 news release that he waved around all last week. It says effective immediately. Did he know what he was talking about when he made that commitment? Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated to the fonner Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, I will take that question as notice and detennine specifically what the fonner Premier is referring to because the infonnation-

488 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 99 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, the honourable minister has already stated he will take it under advisement. I think that is enough. There is no postamble required. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order.

Since it is their allegation now that while the matter has been taken under advisement there should be no further answers, why are they continuing to pose questions? Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Any questions taken as notice do not require a postamble. Government Agencies Surpluses Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): I would like to address my question to the Minister of Finance. We know that from time to time government agencies, especially agencies that are rate collectors, run surpluses.

The example of the Employment Insurance surplus that the federal government is facing comes to mind, especially at a time when we have our farmers in dire straits, low commodity pnces, and you have a federal government who have the distinction of walking around waving this bagful of money and not knowing where to spend it. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he could advise the House what his government plans to do with any surpluses held by government agencies such as MPI or Workers Compensation. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): would like to thank the honourable member for the question.

With respect to any surpluses held by agencies, first of all, we have to get the information those surpluses will in fact be there, and then we will decide in the course of preparing the budget and consulting with Manitobans the best use of those surpluses with regard to the existing policies for retained earnings in those agencies to ensure that they maintain their healthy financial circumstances. * (1 345) Mr. Rocan: A supplementary question to the same minister.

Could this minister assure Manitobans that any surpluses currently held by a government agency, such as Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation or the Workers Compen sation Board, would be returned directly to the ratepayers responsible for that surplus? Mr. Selinger: With respect to any surpluses or potential surpluses that may exist, those sur pluses will be used to further the objectives of that particular corporation. For example, the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation pre sently funds 12 police officers from the City of Winnipeg to deal with the car-theft problem.

That is a policy initiated by the former govern ment. It seems like a good policy because it is one that reduces the claims that are made against that corporation with respect to stolen vehicles. So. given that precedent. we will proceed in a similar fashion to make use of the surpluses to achieve the object ives that Manitobans set for those agencies. Government Agencies Surpluses Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, to follow up on the question from the member for Carman, the government of Saskatchewan, also a government of the New Democratic Party, has a policy where they take dividends from Crown corporations such as their hydro utility, their insurance agency and use that, in essence. subsidize the operation of government by increasing the cost of those basic public utilities.

We are asking the Minister of Finance today: will he say categorically to the people of Manitoba that his administration will not follow that policy used in Saskatchewan of transferring dollars from Crown corporations by way of dividends to subsidize the operation of provincial services?

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 489 Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Well, first of all, we are going to keep these Crown corporations within the control of the government. By doing that, we will ensure that any surpluses that are generated by those organizations are available for the benefit of all Manitobans. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, this is very impor tant for the people of Manitoba to understand the direction of this government.

I ask the minister: does that mean that the ratepayers who pay automobile insurance, the ratepayers who pay for their hydroelectricity, the employers who pay for Workers Compensation coverage-does that mean that if he and his colleagues decide that any surplus would be better used by going into the general revenue of the province, he would rather see those dollars flow into the Treasury than returned to those ratepayers by reduced Autopac fees, reduced hydro fees or reduced Workers Compensation premiums? Mr. Selinger: I thank the honourable member opposite for his question.

It is important that these agencies maintain competitive rates for Manitobans, and that is a policy that we will continue. But it is also important to note that those agencies generate programs and use monies within those agencies to fund those programs. I have given the example of auto theft: police officers made available to the City of Winnipeg. Hydro already pays water rentals. That is revenue available to the government of Manitoba.

What we will do is we will make sure that those Crown corporations stay within the ambit of government control and that the revenues from those corporations will continue to fund the retained earnings policy and the investments that are required to keep those corporations competitive. Then we will take it from there. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, it is the "take it from there" that worries Manitobans. Will the minister simply confirm today that his adminis tration will not transfer any surpluses from those utility corporations by way of a dividend to the Treasury of Manitoba as his colleagues in Saskatchewan do? Mr.

Selinger: Look, the member opposite seems to be concerned about one particular way of plucking feathers from the chicken called Crown corporations. There have been many fashions in which Crown corporations contribute to the economy of Manitoba, and I have given some. Some of them pay a capital tax; some of them make transfers directly to programs, which are relevant to the mandate of that organization; others pay water rentals. There are a number of vehicles that are available.

All of those should be considered with respect to maintaining the purpose of that organization and, at the same time, ensuring that Manitobans get among the best quality of service in the world. The essential point here, Mr. Speaker, is that those organi zations remain within the control of Manitobans and that we have those options available to us. * (1 350 ) Crop Insurance Unseeded Acreage Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, listening to CBC this morning in an interview that was done with the wife of a farmer in western Manitoba, it was very indicative of how difficult the farm situation is in this province and has become. She said that she had a full-time job of f the farm, and she also said that her farmer husband is not going to be on the farm this winter; he is going to move to Alberta to see if he can get a job in the oil fields to support paying off the debt on the farm, the recurring debt.

There has been a lot of discussion about the possibility of changing crop insurance and how crop insurance is administered and applied. The former Minister of Agriculture for this province indicated a willingness to move crop insurance to a mandatory acreage insurance for unseeded acres. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture today: will she be directing her department to implement the unseeded acreage insurance as part of the basic mandatory insurance package for Manitoba farmers for the crop year 2000- 200 1? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agri culture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, the member raises a very important issue. Had we had this

490 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13 , I999 policy in place last year and had the previous government implemented that policy when it was offered to them rather than turning it down, we would have not had the situation in southwestern Manitoba where we had the crisis, and farmers would have gotten a payment. Certainly it is a program that we are looking at, and we would have to look at long-term programs so that the people will be able to have insurance, that they can have something to rely on when they face this kind of unseeded acreage rather than ad hoc programs as we have had to have this year.

Mr. Jack Penner: I want to ask the minister: does she know that the option was actually there, that it was an option? The unseeded acreage option has been there for some years now for all farmers in Manitoba. What I am asking the minister is: is she prepared to ask her depart ment to make it part of the mandatory basic insurance coverage, and is she going to do it for the year 2000-200 I? Ms. Wowchuk: Certainly we have had unseeded acreage insurance in the past. It has not worked. There was a very low take-up rate on it. We have to look at other options, and we are looking at this option.

I ask the member opposite to stay tuned; we will have an answer for you very soon. Mr. Jack Penner: I have been staying tuned and so have all our farmers in Manitoba been staying tuned to her negotiations with her friends in Ottawa, and it is very apparent that her ineffectiveness in negotiations- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you could draw the member's attention to Citation 4I 0 in Beauchesne: "supplementary questions require no

preambles." Mr. Speaker: On that point of order, the honourable Government House Leader does have a point of order. May I caution all members that a

preamble is not required for a supplementary question. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Emerson, please put your question. Mr. Jack Penner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. truly do apologize for bringing the correct information to this House because she has not been successful in convincing her federal counterparts to come with programs that will give our farmers in Manitoba comfort. I ask the minister- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, the member has just been brought to order, and yet he continues to flaunt the rules and your directive. I ask again if you would remind him to respect the rules of the House and your directives and simply pose his question with no supplementary. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Emerson, please place your question. * * * *

(1355) Mr. Jack Penner: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Then with my final supplementary question: what will the cost of premiums be if and when you decide to bring forward this program, and when will the applications be made available to Manitoba farmers? Will they be in time for the year 2000-200 I? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member for Emerson took some cheap shots at a very, very effective cabinet minister, and I am very disappointed in the language in his first out of-order question that he posed to the Minister of Agriculture.

We believe that the Minister of Agriculture has made more progress in II weeks on negotiating some of the very tangible options available for producers than the member opposite did in 11 years. The member opposite also asked how successful we have been with the, quote, federal government. We are working on a co-operative,

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 491 long-term-[interjection] Well, we can judge the zero results of members opposite's policy. I would ask members opposite, within the next three weeks we are very, very optimistic about concluding our negotiations in a very successful way for the producers of Manitoba and get away from the short-term, ad hoc crisis payments of the past and look at a more favourable program of the future under the leadership of our Minister of Agriculture. International Joint Commission Report Government's Position Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): The Inter national Joint Commission recently released an engineering report on Winnipeg's vulnerability to flood damage. The report concludes that there is a pressing need to improve the city of Winnipeg's flood def ences, as well as the flood protection measures in place throughout the Red River Valley. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier: does the government agree with all the recommendations of the International Joint Commission's report, which is the flood protection for Winnipeg? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, no. Mr. Helwer: Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister met with Mr. Axworthy last Friday. I wonder if he could tell us what discussions they had about the implementation of the International Joint Commission's report. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we both agreed that the recommendation to place a dam at Ste. Agathe and flood upstream communities would be very negative, and I am surprised the Conservative Party, with the question asking us to endorse all recommendations, would be endorsing a policy to flood all the communities upstream from Ste. Agathe. I am quite surprised that that is the position taken by the Conservative Party.

So we rejected the recommendation on the Ste. Agathe dam because of the upstream damage it would do. We agreed on that. We have our of ficials working in both departments on some of the measures that we can take in the short term. We are quite concerned about the '97 flood conditions and if there were any more negative weather conditions that would result in massive flooding in a number of communities.

We are also concerned about the operation of the floodway and its impact on upstream com munities, so we are looking, with the department of Natural Resources and the federal govern ment, at a number of short-term recommen dations that can hopefully relieve some of the pressure on flooding in Manitoba communities, both inside the city of Winnipeg and outside the city of Winnipeg. We are obviously looking at the longer-term half-billion-dollar item as in longer-term views. Mr. Helwer: Mr.

Speaker, could the Premier tell us: what is the government's time frame for implementing improvements to the province's flood protection system, as recommended in the International Joint Commission's report? Mr. Doer: I met with the officials from the department of Natural Resources upon the release of the report. They are reporting back to us early January on their assessment of the IJC recommendations. Obviously, the flood con ditions right now are favourable, but Manitobans know that flood conditions can change very, very rapidly in our province.

I think all the snow was melted in March of '97, and then we had that massive blizzard shortly thereafter, causing such horrific conditions for many communities, so we are meeting very early in January. We raised this subject. We talked about the IJC report extensively at our meeting with the two levels of government. We are trying to work on ideas that will deal with this next spring if we can. Mr. Speaker, obviously the longer-term recommen dations with the half billion dollars, we certainly want to have our own analysis of those recommendations. The other thing, Mr.

Speaker, we are also talking about is new highway construction. If they are going to pass over the area of the floodway, should we not be anticipating the inadequacies of our structures based on the existing floodway structures? So, in other words, if we build a road, such as twinning Highway 15 , should we not look ahead to the future rather than build things to the past? So we are already trying to do that as well in government policy.

492 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 99 * (1 400) Urban Shared Services Corporation Mortgage Value Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health on fiscal management. Curiously, the government's first major expenditure, the $24.5 million, was not on child poverty, not on education, not on the farm crisis but on the mortgage on a white elephant, and it was made before the Provincial Auditor could complete his investigations.

With the recent revelations that the former Tory government had committed to pay $10 million to SmartHealth for expenditures which were not approved, I ask the Minister of Health if he will give assurances to the people of Manitoba that he will not waste $10 million of taxpayers' money on unapproved activities. Will he show to the people of Manitoba that his business sense is improving, or is he going to throw away more money after white elephants? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Spea ker, I thank the member for that question, and it is a two-part question.

With regard to the mortgage, the member, I think, has difficulty understanding that the former government of Manitoba had already indebted us to that money. That money was gone when the former Premier and those Health ministers signed off. That money was committed. It was gone. It was a mortgage that was signed. Unauthorized by this Legislature, a 20-year mortgage was entered into. So all we did was take the mortgage and take it under our own ownership so we could have some control of it. So that money was not spent; that money was already spent by the previous government.

With regard to the SmartHealth boondoggle, Mr. Speaker, that was entered into by members opposite, and it is interesting that members opposite-we stood in this House day after day and questioned the expenditure of that funding, and I might add that the former caucus members supported the SmartHealth initiative. We always had difficulties with it. We did not think we should sign up a hundred million dollars of taxpayers' dollars on another boondoggle like Connie Curran or another frozen food boon doggle where they are going to make money. We are still waiting for the $4 million from Connie Curran.

We are still waiting for the $15 million a year from frozen food, and we are still waiting for the hundred million dollars from SmartHealth that they promised we would get. It is a travesty, Mr. Speaker, and I want to assure members opposite that we are examining this very carefully because we do not want to be part of a situation where the former government tried to conceal, in my opinion, what they were doing in regard to the SmartHealth agreement. SmartHealth Government Plan Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary on fiscal manage ment is to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen). How much money, I ask, has the provincial government actually spent, not committed, but actually spent under the terms of the five-year Winnipeg Development Agree ment, and is the low level of expenditure, as reported recently under the former Tory govern ment, the fact that there was little commitment to the City of Winnipeg and only 14 departmental staff to serve half the population of Manitoba? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I do believe the honour able member has one question; this is his second. I would ask that you rule his second question out of order, and we move on in rotation. An Honourable Member: Why did you not do that with the member for Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner)? An Honourable Member: He is allowed. Mr. Speaker: On the ruling of the honourable- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. May I caution all members that a supplementary question does not require a

preamble.

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 493 The honourable Opposition House Leader, for clarification. Mr. Laurendeau: For clarification, Mr. Speaker, my point of order is that his second question was not a supplementary question but a new question to a new minister. It had nothing to do with the first question, so that would be referred to as a second question, which he is not entitled to. Mr. Speaker: On the same point of order, the honourable member for River Heights. Mr. Gerrard: Both questions deal with fiscal management. One is a supplementary to the other. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member does have a point of order. A supple mentary question is raised to clarify information on the previous initial question. Would the honourable member for River Heights, please rephrase his supplementary question? Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Health: given the circumstances around the SmartHealth expenditure, what are the minister's plans for SmartHealth in the future? Mr.

Chomiak: After being very concerned about this deal for some time and raising it over and over again in the Legislature, and after not rece1vmg any satisfaction from members opposite during the election campaign, we indicated we would undertake an audit of the process. The present Deloitte and Touche firm are actually looking at every financial con figuration of this particular deal.

I want members opposite to realize not only are there issues of expenditure of money and what appears to me to be an attempt by the former government to cover up their tracks in this regard, but there are also concerns about how far behind we have fallen in technology as a result of all of the initiatives in Manitoba being poured into this particular SmartHealth enterprise.

So not only are we exammmg all of the facets of the deal that was entered into by members opposite, but we are also pursuing all of the options available to us with respect to how we can develop the infrastructure technology in the health sector in the province of Manitoba, which has been locked into this SmartHealth agreement that is supposed to realize $10 0 million in savings, and all that money-pardon me, $200 million was supposed to go to enhance health care, and, like Connie Curran and like frozen food, we have not seen any of those dollars. In fact, it has cost us money. Audit Tabling Request Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My second supplementary to the Minister of Health: will the minister provide reassurance that he will make this audit fully public before there are major decisions on new expenditures in this area? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, right now, because of the nature of the agreements entered into, we have asked Deloitte and Touche to give us accounting as well as legal advice with respect to the agree ments, the negotiations and the counterclaims that were entered into by members opposite. We are very concerned.

To say that we are concerned would be an understatement with respect to the way the members opposite dealt with that agreement. We will make, on behalf of all of the public of Manitoba, all of the information possible public because of the concerns that I have with respect to negotiations, because of concerns regarding litigation and likewise. At this point, we are in a situation where we are awaiting the report from Deloitte and Touche, but I will make as much public as possible so that Manitobans will know what the story was with respect to the members opposite and the odyssey of SmartHealth.

Aboriginal Gaming Policy Selection Committee Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, on December 6, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs stood in the House and said, I quote: we are committed to the Bostrom report. My question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs is: since he is so com mitted to the Bostrom report, will this govern-

494 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 99 ment ensure that the selection committee is not a two-person committee, as outlined in the briefing note to this minister, but that it is comprised, as stated in the Bostrom report, of, and I quote: representatives from the First Nations, business, government, the general public, with assistance from experienced individuals in the industry? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, yes, we are committed to the Bostrom report.

Its implementations are dealing with bringing revenue, economic development and employ ment opportunities to First Nations which is extremely important, and I am sure members opposite would realize that. We have made a commitment to look at using the material within the Bostrom report, so I thank the member very much for that question. Mr. Loewen: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will not have the temerity to ask the honourable minister-to thank him for his response for not answering the question. * (1410 ) Consultations Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): My question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs who remains, as he says, committed to the Bostrom report: will he confirm that no destination gaming facilities will be allowed to proceed before input from surrounding com munities and municipalities has been both provided and given as stated in the Bostrom report? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, our government is not encouraging or standing in the way of First Nations that are exploring their options with regard to this matter. There are ongoing negotiations.

We are not standing in the road of First Nations people. All I would like to say is that the negotiations are ongoing at present with AMC, and AMC is having ongoing negotiations with First Nations communities. We did not stand in the way of any kind of agreement. We did not put roadblocks and barricades in front of First Nations people trying to do better for themselves. Request for Proposals Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, it appears this government is doing nothing but listening to newfound friends, as opposed to consulting. My second supplementary question to the minister.

Based on his own briefing notes from his own department, will the minister now simply answer a simple question: is this govern ment fast-tracking native gambling with a deadline for the RFP criteria as stated in here, principles, as indicated in this briefing note? Is native gambling being fast-tracked, yes or no? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, with regard to a number of different issues that were raised, the member opposite referred to "friends." Well, friends, the First Nations community of Roseau is consulting with one of their friends, Mr.

Ernst, and we are not standing in the way of any First Nations community consulting with anyone with regard to this issue. As I mentioned previously, there is ongoing consultation taking place, and there is dialogue happening. So what I would like to say is that the negotiations are still taking place. Thank you. Disaster Assistance Federal-Provincial Agreement Mr. Scott Smith (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Highways and Government Services.

Being the minister responsible for The Emergency Measures Act, I wonder whether his office has heard anything at all from the federal government officials regarding Manitoba's ongoing request for a federal-provincial agree ment on disaster assistance for farmers in south western Manitoba and in western Manitoba. It should be similar to the Red River Valley

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 495 agreement that was received by the Red River Valley residents in 19 97-if the minister would. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, this province, going back to June 7, the previous government has been asking for one simple thing for southwest Manitoba in its time of difficulty.

It is the same kind of treatment that Saguenay received in '96, that Red River received in '97, that the ice storm received in '98, specifically that items such as weed control, applied fertilizer, forest restoration will be covered, and also there will be a jobs and economic restoration initiative similar to what took place in 19 97. We understand the difficulty in southwest Manitoba, and we urge the federal government to be ju st as generous as it was in the '97 situation in Red River. Titanium Mine-Cross Lake Land Dispute Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, currently 750 kilometres north of Winnipeg, near Pipestone Lake, lies what could be a $500- million titanium mine and the potential of approximately a thousand jobs. Unfortunately, this potential project has been delayed due to a land dispute as to who should own the resource. As the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines has hired Mr. Lyle Skinner to do a fact finding mission, can the minister advise this House as to the time frame given to Mr. Skinner to report back to her department, and will the minister commit to tabling a report upon its completion? Hon.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for asking the question about mining. I am very pleased to report to the House that indeed we have been working very diligently with the community of Cross Lake on trying to develop a process of trust, which is the first step required in any negotiation with First Nations. Unfortunately, negotiations had been poisoned, deadlocked, because of the hard feelings between the previous government and the community of Cross Lake. It was not until we had successfully- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Speaker, we are pleased to announce that we have successfully incorporated all First Nations industry and government in the first ever aboriginal protocol document, the first in Canada and North America. That is the first step towards getting the mine. Thank you. Mr. Pitura: I know that there are several options. The question is: what is the minister's plan in reference to the option of either the government or Cross Lake First Nation buying out Gossan Resources' 50 percent share of the deposit? Ms. Mihychuk: Mr.

Speaker, the negotiations with Cross Lake are in a sensitive position. We are working very closely with the band, with Gossan Resources, with the principals involved. It would be totally inappropriate to do the negotiation here in the House, and the member across the way should know better. Mr. Pitura: Mr. Speaker, can the minister then advise the House what the estimated cost would be of the share that Gossan Resources owns? Ms. Mihychuk: I guess that depends whose side you are on, and that varies. We are in the midst of negotiations. We are talking to all members of this.

It is very important to the economy of Manitoba, as the member knows, very important to the people who live in the North. This is finally an opportunity where we can see First Nations participating as an equal partner. We will do everything we can on this side to get the project to work, not like years of stalling and unfortunate negotiations which sidetracked the whole project for years and years. Call Centres Government Position Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, the members for Fort Rouge, Flin Flon, Lord Roberts and Burrows have referred to the employment opportunities offered by call centres numerous times as McJobs. Last week the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms.

496 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 99 Mihychuk) said in reference to Gage Marketing opening a second call centre in Selkirk that the centres are an integral part of our economy. Mr. Speaker, to the minister: according to the NDP, all call centres are an integral part of the community, or are they McJobs? Can you have it both ways? Would you please tell us? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): We have The Full Meal Deal with the Faneuil deal from members opposite.

Certainly I wonder if the member for Fort Whyte is now claiming that $20 million in public liability for the Faneuil deal for 400 jobs was free enterprise that he supports and his party supports here in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we-I think all of us- An Honourable Member: Big Whopper. Mr. Doer: Well, it was a Big Whopper. Twenty million dollars for 400 jobs at Faneuil, another one of the troika of boondoggles for members opposite. SmartHealth, frozen food, Fane uil, regrettably, have cost this province a consider able amount of money. Mr.

Speaker, I think it is important that, wherever possible, private industry and the government work-[interjection] * (1 420) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I think it is very important that all of us do what we can to make sure there are more full-time jobs available for our kids and our grandchildren, because we want and we know that a society that strives for full time employment for our young people, for our unemployed people has a greater chance of putting down roots in our community and growing our communities and growing our future.

So we make no apologies in trying to focus in on strategies that deal with full-time work. The Gage Marketing company, I think, to the credit of the members opposite, did meet its initial employment targets, not like all the other companies that received money from the members opposite. The new operation in Selkirk, we believe also will meet its employ ment targets. We are also pleased to see that it is working on e-commerce and other ideas of the future in Selkirk. All jobs are not created equally, and all grants, obviously, were not equally accountable to members opposite.

We want to have a much more consistent policy so we can stay away from Faneuil in the future. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Farm Family of the Year Award Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Conservation Districts Association held its annual meeting a short while ago. Every year that association awards the Farm Family of the Year Award to a family in Manitoba who exemplifies and uses farm practices that encourage conservation tech niques, accepted practices that improve the environment in rural Manitoba.

I am very proud to inform all my fellow members here today that constituents of mine by the names of Steve and Anita Kindzerski and their family were recipients of this award just two weeks ago at the Conservation Districts annual meeting. Steve and Anita and their family farm south of the community of Rorketon. I know the family from when I was the school principal at Rorketon. I know that the Kindzerskis are very committed to the conser vation farm practices that they have been recognized here for.

I want to add that this is the second year in a row that constituents from Dauphin-Roblin have received this award, as Joe Federowich and his family won this last year. So I am very pleased to join with everyone here today to congratulate Steve and Anita Kindzerski and their family on the receipt of this award. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Child Poverty Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr. Speaker, Thursday last, December 9, the

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 497 member for Riel (Ms. Asper) chose to rise and make some comments regarding the issue of child poverty and how it pertains to the city of Portage Ia Prairie, which is my constituency, and I feel I must respond. I find it extremely disturbing that another member of this House would rise and put remarks on the record about another member's constituency without prior consultation with that elected representative for that constituency.

While I can appreciate the member for Riel's concern regarding the very important issue of child poverty, I take issue with the way this member attempted to gamer political mileage from the issue of child poverty. Unfortunately, child poverty is a reality, not only in Portage Ia Prairie but all across this nation. The comments she made about the poverty level in Portage were, in fact, based on the census data of 19 96, not necessarily accurately reflecting what has happened in this community since that date. Mr.

Speaker, I can proudly say that residents, including myself, from Portage Ia Prairie have not buried their heads in the sand and have been very active in addressing this consideration, which unfortunately is an abnormality, of which the member for Riel (Ms. Asper) was obviously not aware. We in co-operation with, that means I as a member, the Youth for Christ, the local Portage Ia Prairie School Division, the City of Portage Ia Prairie and others, have undertaken to address this issue.

Here in Portage la Prairie we are very proud to say that we are on the leading edge of addressing poverty, and the 19 96 figures do not adequately reflect the situation. I am very proud to say that we have some of the initiatives that were outl ined in the throne speech where the schools are open on every occasion where warranted. Each of us as elected representatives must be extremely careful about the types of remarks we make in this House. The remarks must be accurate and fair, and they must be responsible for that statement. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member's time has expired. Vidir Machine Shop Mr.

Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to acknow- ledge a fine example of industrial development in the Interlake which I had the distinct pleasure of seeing this past week. The development I have referred to is called Vidir Machine Shop, and it was established by a Mennonite family, the Duecks in the Okno area just north of Arborg. The company, which employs in the neighbourhood of 80 people, manufactures equipment for the carpet industry, mainly rolling and cutting machines but also storage and dispensing racks, which can be found in most major retail outlets across the continent.

The company was started up by the father, who had hands-on experience installing carpets which led him to envision machines and equip ment which would make this task easier. I want to acknowledge this particular accomplishment and that of the Mennonite people in general in the Okno and surrounding areas for their diver sification away from primary agricultural production, which I feel is the key for survival and growth in rural communities such as you will find in the Interlake.

Modem, environ mentally friendly manufacturing such as this, accompanied by a parallel program of research and development, will ensure that this com munity of people will continue to grow and flourish as we enter into the new millennium. While there. I was also shown an experi mental heat-generating system that utilized round bales but took the process a step further in that temperatures achieved were much higher than normally reached by conventional burning, and the result was very little smoke released into the atmosphere.

Actions such as this above all should be acknowledged, utilizing surplus capital to develop technology which will lessen the damage mankind does to the atmosphere. Hats of f to Vidir Machine, Mr. Speaker. Jack Murray Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, Jack Murray passed away on November 18 , 19 99. Jack Murray was a very devoted husband, father and grandfather. Jack spent most of his productive life in Morris as a businessman, as mayor, and at the time of his death, his second term as councillor for the Town of Morris. Jack served as mayor from 19 71 to '86. He was actively involved at the Morris Develop-

498 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 99 ment Corporation and the hospital board. At the time of his death, Jack was very much involved at the Morris Area Seniors, the Morris Manor Board, the Valley Regional Library and the Morris Ambulance Board. Jack was also a member of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Board. Jack was an avid reader and had an extensive compendium of books in his study. Jack also had a very keen sense of humour and always had a joke or two to share with me after he gave me his advice for the day.

In fact, his sense of humour was capsulized by his son David at the funeral when he shared with us that Jack Murray wanted to be cremated on his death, and the reason he gave for wanting to be cremated was that would be absolutely the last time people could ever call him an ash. Jack Murray has left behind a legacy for the town and the community of Morris. His presence will be missed, and I know his wife and their children, Jackie [phonetic] and David, will carry the torch which he has passed proudly and with great energy. Thank you. Assiniboia Community Activities Mr.

Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): I would like to bring all members' attention to a number of activities that I have recently attended within the Assiniboia constituency. Ness Middle School, Hedges School, Heritage Park Children's centre, Fairlane daycare centre and John Taylor Collegiate concerts have all just recently taken place. I was impressed by these activities. They had excellent student, staff, parent and com munity involvement. I must commend all those who have spent countless hours volunteering their time and talents in these and other endeavours.

These activities provide excellent oppor tunities for the growth of all our children. Studies have shown that most CEOs and com munity leaders have participated in extra curricular activities such as bands, sports teams, et cetera. These activities develop interpersonal skills, communication and teamwork skills which contribute greatly to our society. Our government supports these and other initiatives which help develop the youth of our country into adults. Thank you very much to all those people who have spent countless hours in activities to make our society stronger. * (14 30) Committee Change Mr.

Speaker: The honourable member for Pembina, on a committee change. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs be amended as follows: the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) for the honourable member for Southdale (Mr. Reimer). Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a matter of House business, it is my understanding that there has been agreement to proceed with the condolence motions this afternoon and, following that, moving to Orders of the Day, the second reading of Bill 2, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? [agreed] Motions of Condolence Walter Clifton McDonald Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Filmon), THAT this House convey to the family of the late Walter Clifton McDonald, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereave ment and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public

December 13 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 499 service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. Motion presented. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, Walter Clifton McDonald served in this Legislature and was elected in 19 49 as a member of the Liberal Party of this province, November 10 in fact. He represented the electoral district of Dufferin. He was re-elected in 19 53 and again in 19 58, and he served his province until 19 59. Walter is certainly a person who should be remembered in this Legislature for his com munity contributions and his community activity.

He was a person who was employed by the Canadian Bank of Commerce, and he returned to Roland, Manitoba, after working in Ontario and Manitoba where he worked in the insurance business of his father. He operated this insurance business until 19 86. Walter was a school trustee for 25 years, and certainly he represented the community of Roland in that school trustee position. From there, he went to the Board of Regents of the University of Winnipeg, and then he was subsequently elected to this Legislature.

Walter was a person who was involved in the establish ment of the original Boys and Girls Club in his home community of Roland which eventually became the 4-H Club of that community. Mr. Speaker, he was an individual who was a devoted member of the Freemasonry. He joined the Masonic Lodge in Fort Frances in 19 27, and in 19 29 he affiliated with the Lodge No. 70 in Roland. He was elected the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge in Manitoba in 19 48. In 19 45. he had become a member of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry in the Winnipeg Valley.

He was elected a 33-degree Mason in '55, and in 19 76 he was elected to serve a three-year period as a Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of Canada. He was a charter member of the Royal Order of Scotland of Manitoba and served as the first Provincial Grand Master, a position he held for 10 consecutive years. He received the Legion of Honour degree in the order of DeMolay in 19 71 in recognition of contributions to Freemasonry. Mr. McDonald, as I say, was an individual who was elected for three terms in this Legislature, a record that not very many members are able to duplicate.

He obviously was a person who had a great deal of credibility from his own community in that he had served on the school board and the board of regents. Mr. McDonald was predeceased by his wife, Jean. He has four children-Mildred, John, Isobel and Barrie. On behalf of our party and members of our caucus, Mr. Speaker, we want to offer our sincere condolences to the McDonald Family and thank him for his contributions to his community of Roland and to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Gary Filmon (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased, on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House, to join with the Premier in paying tribute to Walter Clifton McDonald and expressing our great appreciation and respect for a lifetime of service that he devoted not only to his community but to the entire province. Walter McDonald was not an individual that I knew, but certainly in reading his biography, you can see the rich history that he had of service and commitment to his fellow human beings.

The Premier has referred to his involve ment in the beginnings of the 4-H Club in his area, the devotion that he had to the United Church and teaching youth group Sunday school, the service that he had ultimately on the board of regents at the University of Winnipeg, his involvements to the highest levels in the Masonic Order in our province. All of these speak of a person who was very committed to public service and to the support of his fellow human beings throughout his community and the various organizations that were important in that community, in and around Roland, Manitoba. Mr.

McDonald, of course, served in this Legislature for nine and a half years. That is a period of time that is longer than the average. I believe it is about six years. So he had a significant contribution to make during his service here in this Legislature. * (1 440)

500 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13 , 19 99 He was active, as you can tell from his biography, for a long, long time, certainly at 96 years at passing. He was well into his 80s when he was still running his insurance agency. That is a very significant period of service in the business world as well as a member of many organizations and his public service. I think all of us should be grateful for Mr.

McDonald's time in this Legislature, for all of the contributions that he made to public life in and around the community of Roland and for the great dedication he had to improving the circum stances of young people through his teaching of Sunday school, his establishment of the Boys and Girls Club and 4-H clubs and his service obviously at the board of regents at the University of Winnipeg and 25 years on the school board. So I am delighted to join with the Premier (Mr.

Doer) in expressing the condolences of members on this side of the House to his children, Mildred, John, Isobel and Barrie, and to his 17 grandchildren and his 12 great -grand children and to also express our gratitude for Walter Clifton McDonald's devotion and service to the people of this province. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I rise, Mr. Speaker, to add my voice to the leaders of the NDP and the Conservative Party to the expression of condolences to the family of Walter Clifton McDonald.

I rise to add my voice to the appreciation for an individual who served Manitoba for many, many years, born in Roland in 19 03, and in the years since then, through his contributions to the school board, his contributions to the Masonic Lodge, his con tributions in many ways to the community of Roland and indeed the rural area around Roland. They speak highly of Mr. Clifton McDonald, who was for almost I 0 years a member of this Legislature, a representative of the Liberal Party at a time when there were major Liberal initiatives to enhance electrifi cation in rural Manitoba.

I think that it is a testament to the ef forts of Mr. Walter Clifton McDonald and other Liberals of the day, their concern for rural Manitoba and indeed for all of Manitoba, that we have had major progress in those years and indeed since then. So I will conclude just in saying that it was Mr. McDonald who contributed a full life with an extraordinary record of service to Manitoba and indeed to the Liberal Party and to rural Manitoba. My condolences to the family and to friends. Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Today I would like to say a few remarks in remembrance of Walter McDonald, the late member for Dufferin.

Before I begin, though, I would just like to comment on what a worthy exercise I think this Assembly is conducting today. It is a great honour for each of us to recognize our predecessors, and I think the families and friends of those who we remember here are grateful for our words. When we recognize those who have passed on before us, we pay tribute to the longevity and sanctity of this Legislature. Frequent reflection on the contributions of those who have passed before us serves as an invaluable guide to continuing the sound governance that this province has enjoyed.

Walter Clifton McDonald, the late member for the electoral district of Dufferin, was born in 19 03, nearly a century ago, to a wealthy land owning family in Roland, Manitoba. In fact, the town of Roland got its name from Walter's father. Roland McDonald. Walter inherited a large land-owning estate in the locale of the province and was an esteemed member of the community. The late member would call Roland home for his entire life and was dedicated to the continued prosperity of the town.

His contributions to the region are many. think it is very appropriate for me, as a representative of that part of the province, to mention some of them here today. As I have noted in this House before, Roland is the birthplace of the 4-H Club of Canada. In his youth, the late member was one of the charter members of this organization, which was called then the Roland Boys and Girls Club. It was his participation in this club that would mark the beginning of his community involvement. In his adulthood, he went on to serve on numerous boards and committees.

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 501 Quite notably, he served as a trustee of the Roland School District for 25 years. Despite his dedication to his family's insurance business, the late member's services were by no means limited to his home com munity. He spent four years on the Board of Regents of United College, now the University of Winnipeg, and, as we all know, he was an elected member of the Manitoba Legislature. The honourable member was first sent to the Legislature by his constituents in 19 49, when he ran as a Liberal Progressive.

The voters of Dufferin returned him to this House on two subsequent occasions before he was defeated after some 10 years of service. Although I never knew Walter McDonald personally, I share a special bond with him. Throughout his long life, he was a dedicated and honoured member of the Masonic Lodge. I too am committed to the Masonic Order. This com monality makes us brothers. It is a true privilege to be a Mason, and the late member did our heritage proud, as was described to me one time on one of my outings with the former Premier, a very dear friend of ours, D.L. Campbell, who spoke very highly of Mr.

McDonald. He was elected a 33-degree member of the Masonic Lodge in 19 55. He served as a Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council and was a charter member of the Royal Order of Scotland. In 1971, he received a Legion of Honour degree in recognition of his contribution to Freemasonry. It is indeed an honour to have served with this man. To conclude my remarks, I want to extend my condolences to the McDonald family. You have met with great loss, but it is a loss that is shared by all of us. Walter was a valued member of this House during his time of service.

It is with heavy hearts that we remember him today. His contributions to the province of Manitoba are very much appreciated. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to put just a few comments on the record regarding Walter Clifton McDonald. In the early '70s, I had an opportunity to meet with him several times. Among the many accomplishments that he had, another one was that of giving legal advice. I do not believe that he was a lawyer. However, he did offer advice. In this capacity, I purchased property and he did the paperwork for me at that time.

I learned to know him as a man who was a dedicated person, someone who was dedicated to his community. As has already been said, he lived in the Roland municipality, in that area, for most of his life. He served many of the people within that area. So I had my opportunity to learn to know him in that capacity as one who was doing some of the paperwork when legal transactions needed to be made. He was a friendly man. I enjoyed visiting with him. He told me of the opportunities that he had had in his lifetime and the many opportunities that he had had to serve the public in many different ways. He was energetic.

I always found him inspiring, so I, too, would like to also express my condolences to the family and just thank them for the opportunity that I had to learn to know him and for the inspiration that he was to me. * (1 450) Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt this motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Would honourable members please rise and remain standing to indicate their support for the motion. A moment of silence was observed. Cornelius W. Wiebe Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard), THAT this House convey to the family of the late Cornelius Wiebe, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereave-

502 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 99 ment and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. Motion presented. Mr. Doer: I think we all knew of Dr. Cornelius Wiebe. We were aware, certainly those of us who had not had a chance to meet him directly, of his reputation. I certainly had heard of his reputation before I was elected to office and have heard about it since I was elected to office. He was an individual who is being eulogized today, but, Mr.

Speaker, he was a person whose legislative achievement of one term on June 6, 19 32, to reside in this Legislature to 19 36 is quite frankly dramatically eclipsed by his human reputation and record as a medical doctor in Manitoba. I believe the headline in the paper stated that 6,000 babies were born under his medical supervision. Six thousand babies in the Pembina Valley were born under his medical supervision.

What a tremendous, tremendous legacy that he has to the thousands and thousands of families over the 50 or so years he was a medical doctor it must have been longer even-that he had provided so much joy and so much happiness to so many people through his work as a medical doctor in the Pembina Valley. I recall, of course, that he was given the Order of Canada a couple of years ago. I remember Romeo LeBlanc issued the Order of Canada.

I remember the kind of media attention it so correctly developed and received for this great human being that was being awarded the Order of Canada in his nursing home at 10 5 years of age. As I understand it, he had only moved shortly before that to the nursing home, that he had resided in his own residence prior to that period of time. Mr. Speaker, Dr. Cornelius Wiebe retired at age 85, but what stories he could tell. It is, again, the history, and the media contained some of the stories upon his death in July of this year, of Dr.

Wiebe going to farm homes and delivering babies at those farm homes, but getting there by sleigh to be able to have this joy successfully completed by the families that he was involved in. He not only had the personal satisfaction and joy of being such a well-known medical doctor in his own community of Winkler, but he also left other programs behind for his fellow citizens. He worked hard for handicapped kids, and he esta blished the Valley Rehabilitation Centre in his community. He was a founding member of the Bethel Hospital in Winkler. He was involved in the school board for 25 years.

He was a member of the College of Physicians and Surgeons. He was a president of the Manitoba Medical Association, obviously having the respect of his peers. So as we recognize Dr. Wiebe here today for his term in office, we have to acknowledge that his contributions in medicine, as I say, eclipsed his political career in this Legislature. Mr. Conrad Santos.

Deputy Speaker. in the Chair But we would like to congratulate him for that election here to this Legislature, because it, again. shows and demonstrates tangibly the respect and credibility he had in this community, whether it was to hold office in the school board which it appears to me he has held through out his provincial legislative term, or to hold office in the Legislature, or to hold office for a period of time with the College of Physicians and Surgeons and the Manitoba Medical Association. I know of many people who claim to have come to this world with the help of Dr.

Wiebe, and I am sure that there is, as I say, lots of stories across the way. I am sure there are lots of members across the way whose first speech was actually given to Dr. Wiebe and not to this Legislature. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Dr. Wiebe is succeeded by his daughters, Vema Bueckert and Thelma, and his son, Leonard. His first wife, Helena, predeceased him, and his late wife, Ann, also predeceased him. Dr. Wiebe certainly leaves to mourn a number of grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 503 Mr. Deputy Speaker, it was obviously a long and successful and warm life he led. In reading some of the biographies on Dr. Cornelius Wiebe, it certainly came to my attention that Mavis Reimer wrote a book: Cornelius W. Wiebe - A Beloved Physician. As we pay tribute to his legislative career here in this Legislature, we pay tribute to a life that contributed to his fellow human beings, and a life of medicine that is full of joy and full of thousands of people of Manitoba and beyond that have benefited from his medical skills and from his medical dedication.

Mr. Gary Filmon (Leader of the Official Opposition): It is a pleasure for me, on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House, to join with the Premier (Mr. Doer) and his colleagues in paying tribute to Dr. Cornelius Wiebe. Mr. Speaker in the Chair Although Dr. Wiebe only served in this Legislature for four years, his biography reads as a lifetime of service to people in so many different respects. As a family practitioner for 53 years, he has contributed mightily to the development of families and the community in and around Winkler.

He, of course, was founder of Bethel Hospital in Winkler, an institution with which I am familiar, having been there and visited people at various times over the years. He organized the Winkler branch of the Association of Retarded Children in 19 58 and established there a school for retarded children in 19 63 and the resulting Valley Rehabilitation Centre. a sheltered workshop that I have visited on a number of occasions as well that to this day continues to do a wonderful job of providing activity and a productive work environment for those with mental disabilities.

Twenty-five years on the school board during that period of time in which he was a full time practitioner, delivering, as the Premier has indicated, over 6,000 babies, remarkable that he had the time to do all that.

In three different terms he spent 10 years as an elected member of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of our province culminating in the presidency in 19 45- 46, president as well of the Manitoba Medical Association in 19 52-53 . * (1 500) He has served his community and the people of this province in so many different ways that he richly deserved the honour of being invested in the Order of Canada by Governor General Romeo LeBlanc earlier this year. It really is a remarkable record of service and achievement that we are celebrating in recognizing his life and his career here in this Legislature. So, Mr.

Spea ker, my colleagues and I add our wishes of celebration to those that have been offered by the Leader of the New Democratic Party, the Premier (Mr. Doer), to the children of Dr. Wiebe, Verna, Thelma and Leonard, and the five grandchildren and 11 great-gra ndchildren who survive him. Theirs is a very rich legacy from their father, grandfather and great grandfather, a legacy of tremendous and devoted service to his community and to the people of this province.

He leaves behind so many achievements in the field of medicine and in the field of setting up institutions for those with mental disabilities in our province. He leaves behind a great record of devotion to so many different organizations, and we, as a province, are richer because of his devoted service to community and to province. We extend our condolences, and we also celebrate the many things that Dr. Cornelius Wiebe left for our province to be richer. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I am here today to jo in with the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition in extending condolences as the member for River Heights and the Leader of the Liberal Party to family and friends of Dr. Cornelius Wiebe. Indeed, for an individual who lived for some 10 6 years, it is perhaps less condolences than a real celebration of achievement, a time to say, wow, what an individual and what a contribution that Dr. Wiebe made to Manitoba. Born in Altona in the 18 00s, he began the practice of medicine in Winkler in 19 25. Dr. Wiebe serves as an example of the sort of

504 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13 , 19 99 contribution that physicians can make to the public life of Manitoba and indeed to politics in Manitoba. Though he practised for 53 years, he was elected and served admirably and faithfully for Morden and Rhineland from 19 32 to 19 36. He contributed, not just in the political arena and not just in the delivery of many thousands of babies, but in many other ways to the health care system of Manitoba. He founded the Bethel Hospital in Winkler in 19 35.

He served as an elected member ofthe College of Physicians and Surgeons for three terms, the first of which from 19 42 to 19 47, during which period he served as president of the College of Physicians and Surgeons, 19 45 and 19 46. He was, in addition, president of the Manitoba Medical Association, 19 52-53 . I want to speak for a moment on his contributions to children, not only in delivering babies, but his concern for the health of children, his concern in particular for those children who were retarded, those children who had disabilities in one form or another. Dr.

Wiebe organized and supervised the Winkler branch of what was then the Association for Retarded Children in 19 58 and established a school in Winkler in 19 63 and the Valley Rehabilitation Centre in 19 70, continuing to be active and concerned about the health care of children well on in his years. Indeed, his concern for health care continued with his founding in 19 82 of the Dr. C.W. Wiebe Foundation, providing instruments and technology not otherwise available for the Manitoba Health Hospital Commission Plan. So year by year, decade by decade, in many facets of health care, Dr.

Wiebe made a significant contribution. I should add that in addition to politics, serving in the Legislature in addition to his work in the health care area, his work and his dedication to the local school system, his service for 25 years beginning in 19 29 on the school board is also notable. So we are here together to honour and to celebrate the life of Dr. Wiebe, who made an incredible contribution over many years, a contribution that was recognized earlier this year in May by the special trip that Governor General Romeo LeBlanc made to Winkler to invest Dr. Wiebe as a member of the Order of Canada.

I should add, Dr. Wiebe was a life member of the Manitoba Liberal Party. It is in this context that I have a particular pleasure for his contributions as a Liberal and in the Liberal Progressive administration back in 19 32 to '36 and his contributions in politics. I would emphasize and applaud and note the importance of the continuing growth of health care professionals in politics from then till now. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I want to begin my reflection by saying what a true honour, what a privilege it is to rise and recognize Dr. Cornelius Wiebe in the House today. Dr.

Wiebe was and continues to be a real inspiration for us all. It is with the greatest respect that I make my remarks today. He will be well remembered. Just as an aside, he was instrumental in assisting me into this world, as he was with my three brothers and my two sisters. So of those 6,000 that he helped deliver, we were some of them. Dr. Wiebe was born in 18 93 at a time when the world was a very different place than the one we know today. In his early life, automobiles and electric lighting were still a rare luxury and life was harder on almost every front.

That noted, it is all the more incredible that he was able to grace us with his presence for 10 6 years. This is a man who had completed his schooling by the time the First World War broke out and was a practising medical doctor before the Second World War. In reference to the early times, I remember the stories that he told and some of them were sort of scary. There were times when he made house calls, and he did that at great length and would never think twice of going out.

In fact, it had been in spring and some of the bridges had been washed out, and he needed to get to this home where a lady was delivering a child. The bridge was out. He had a nurse with him, and this is where the story comes from. He did not repeat this, but the nurse did. So they had driven up to where the washout was taking place. He had backed up and taken a real good speed and

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 505 in fact had made it over the washout and did deliver the child, so this was truly doctors going to the homes and practising medicine. The life of Dr. Cornelius Wiebe was a full one, even for a man who lived to 10 6 years old. He began his career as a physician in Winkler in 19 25, and he would remain in Winkler for the rest of his lif e. The achievements in his medical career are numerous.

They include the founding of the Bethel Hospital, the Winkler branch of the Association for Retarded Children, the Winkler School for Retarded Children and the Valley Rehab Centre. * (15 10 ) I would just like to expand on those. It was his desire that those children, and in those days they were called "closet children," that they come out of closet, that in fact they would be recognized as children and truly people who could and would be productive and would be able to accomplish something in this world.

It is a week ago on Friday that I went to a concert where 12 0 of those people, who have some mental disabilities, gave a Christmas concert and they sing wonderfully. They have some absolutely astounding talents, and yet though as they were at that time, and this was many years ago when he started the Valley Rehab Centre, these were children who were not recognized for the abilities that they had.

When it comes to music many of them shine, and here again I want to give the example of two elderly ladies who attended Valley Rehab, and yet though musically the one plays the guitar, the other the piano, and they will just keep on going. They know all the Christmas carols that are out there, and the way to get them to stop from performing is to pull the plug on the electric organ and then stop. They do not mind, but they can keep on going. So these were the talents that Dr. Wiebe saw in people. It was his desire that the Valley Rehab be established and of course as I indicated he was instrumental in doing that.

Further to this, along with four other doctors, he established the Winkler Medical Clinic in 19 74. Dr. Wiebe was elected to the Manitoba College of Physicians and Surgeons on three occasions between 19 42 and 19 63 and served as that organization's president from 19 45 to '46. He also acted as a president of the Manitoba Medical Association in 19 52 to '53. His contribution to the town of Winkler and his contribution to medicine and patient care in this province was invaluable. I have called Winkler home for many years now, and I can testify to the tremendous legacy Dr. Wiebe has left there.

The many generous initiatives he undertook will be appreciated for many years to come. Dr. Wiebe's accomplish ments are to be found outside the medical profession as well. Beginning in 19 29, Dr. Wiebe was a member of the local school board for three decades. From 19 32 to 19 36, he served the people of Manitoba as a member of the Legislative Assembly. It should be humbling for all members who sit in this Chamber today to be in the company of this most extraordinary man. The province is indeed fortunate to have benefited from the services of Dr.

Wiebe, and here again I would like to just take an aside, when he was 98 years old, he reprimanded some of his colleagues, the local doctors, for not having attended some of the medical conferences that were taking place in Winnipeg. He in fact asked if he could have a ride to Winnipeg when the next conference would be taking place. He was a lifelong learner, and if we could use that term it would be certainly something that we would want to say ofDr. Wiebe. It has been said that Cornelius Wiebe was born ahead of his time.

His tremendous com passion for the handicapped, regardless of the fact that many of them had been reje cted by the rest of society was a sign of a true philanthropist and pioneer. This last summer, the Governor General of Canada, on his reception of Dr. Wiebe into the Order of Canada, said that although Dr. Wiebe was born in the 19 th Century, he did not have a 19 th Century mind. His Honour told Dr. Wiebe, and I quote: you were way ahead of your time in your desire to give education and training opportunities to people with a mental handicap. Today I would suggest that perhaps Dr.

Wiebe is still ahead of his time, as our society

506 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13 , 19 99 can still learn much from his leadership, his dedication and his compassion. I happened to be privileged to be present at the time when he did get the Order of Canada, when he got that award, and he tried to shrug it off and say, well, it really was not something that he deserved. He was very appreciative of it. In talking to him at that time, he recognized the fact that he had been around for many, many years, but, certainly, he wanted to give recognition to other people who had helped him accomplish so much.

With those words, I would like to conclude by saying again how much Dr. Wiebe meant to the people of Winkler. The beloved physician will be long remembered and forever loved by those who have had the good fortune of knowing him. On behalf of this Legislature, I want to extend our best to those family members who have survived him and to say thank you to the doctor for everything he has done for us. Thank you. Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to express condolences for Dr. Cornelius Wiebe. I feel honoured to speak at this occasion.

I realize he once sat in this Chamber as an MLA from 19 32 to 19 36 , but I want to pay tribute to him as a doctor who was well known across Manitoba. We all know that Dr. Wiebe lived in Winkler and served his community as a doctor from 19 25 to 19 78. He was very involved in his community in many ways, but I will be concentrating on his career as a doctor and leave his community contribution to other MLAs from southern Manitoba. Before I say any more about Dr. Wiebe, would like to point out that I grew up on a farm five miles north of Boissevain, which is about 15 0 miles from Winkler.

The question is why would I be interested in paying tribute to Dr. Wiebe who lived in a community 15 0 miles away? Well, Dr. Wiebe served our family for many years. His name was often heard in our community, in our home. He was we11 known in many communities across Manitoba, not just Winkler. Our family often went to see Dr. Wiebe in Winkler. We appreciated the service of the local doctors, but the reputation of Dr. Wiebe was so great that we would travel to Winkler for a second opinion. When our family had been to Dr. Wiebe, we felt we got a definitive answer. Because we had such great trust and faith in Dr.

Wiebe, we then felt assured we got the proper answer. I have risen today to speak in this Chamber because my family felt that Dr. Wiebe at one time saved our father's life, and I would like to share this story that speaks highly of Dr. Wiebe with you. I can reca11 my father getting very ill in the year 19 54. We took him to the local doctor in Boissevain, and we were not quite happy with the results. That evening, our family had a serious discussion about what to do. We knew he was very i11 and we decided to take him to Dr. Wiebe in Winkler.

Winkler, as I have said, was ISO miles away and much of the way there was a gravel road. The roads were quite rough, and the maximum speed was about 50 miles per hour, so it was a three-hour trip. A 11 these obstacles did not stand in our way because we had our minds made up that we had to get our father to see Dr. Wiebe in Winkler. We did not even make an appointment with Dr. Wiebe. We just placed our father in the back seat of the car and went to Winkler. We knew Dr. Wiebe would accept him, and we knew he would be placed in a hospital right away.

We then felt that our father was in the best medical care possible. There was a time, as a family, when we felt that father might pass away because he had sleeping sickness. However, over several weeks, he recovered, returned home. My father lived a long life after that. Our family thanks Dr. Wiebe for the care that he gave our father. We think that he was instrumental in restoring his health. We pay tribute to this great doctor, who was a servant to a11 the people who came to him for help. Dr. Wiebe was a great doctor because he was a caregiver who took a deep interest in the people he served.

So today I have risen in this Chamber to pay tribute on behalf of my family for the services that Dr. Wiebe provided to our family over the

December 13 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 507 many years. We will always remember his great work. That is why he was invested with the Order of Canada in May 19 99. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I humbly rise today to put a few words on record in appreciation for the tremendous service that Dr. Wiebe gave to this province and indeed to his country. I think the family of Dr. Wiebe is extremely honoured and proud and should be honoured and proud of the tremendous service that he provided not only to his community but to the community of humanity at large.

Much has been said about his work that he did for those who were less able to help themselves and for the tremendous appreciation that he had for educating especially our young and for the services in the medical area. * (1 520) But I know Mr. Wiebe in a bit of a different sense. When I was elected in 19 88, he wrote me a little note and indicated that true leadership was not only earned but in fact had to be demonstrated. He indicated clearly that com munity service had rewards way beyond what could be stated verbally.

I think he demon strated that kind of involvement and belief in community by appearing in person at the Threshermen's Reunion just two years ago when he was I 04 years old. He was sitting in his car watching the opening ceremonies, which we held at that time on a flat deck outside. When I approached him after the ceremonies, he said: this is truly what we have to do. We have to leave a legacy for our young people, for how are they going to know where they came from if we do not give them that? He was involved in the ag society.

He was involved, although maybe not always personally, but demonstrated that kind of leadership by being there and by participating and by encouraging the establishment of the Thresher men's Museum between Morden and Winkler and ensuring that the history that the area and the province should be proud of was visible. He was involved in many, many other functions, far too numerous to name, outside of his medical profession and outside of his involvement in the educational community for the establishment of such institutions we call now as the credit union in Winkler, the co operative movement in Winkler.

Many of the other foundations that have been established to help people were his true identity. Those of us who have served in his footsteps really as members of the Legislature, as community leaders and other aspects, can always point with pride at history and the leadership that Dr. Wiebe demonstrated. So to his family today, we say to you we are proud to have been associated with him; we are proud to have followed in his footsteps in this Legislature, and we truly have a deep appreci ation for his service to his community, his province and his country. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Would honourable members please rise and remain standing to indicate their support for the motion. A moment of silence was observed. James Wallace McKenzie Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Filmon), THAT this House convey to the family of James W.

McKenzie, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. Motion presented. Mr. Doer: James Wallace McKenzie, or as most of us would know him by, Wally, passed away in September of this year at the age of 85. I think all of us on the campaign trail at that time stopped and thought about that and were very saddened to hear the news.

I know that members opposite were in the same caucus as him, and I have heard stories, upon my election in '86,

508 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 99 about his oratory skills, his sense of humour, his warmth, his kind of feisty representation of his constituents. It is an honour to stand here today, but I was very sad to hear of his passing just a few months ago. Wally, Mr. McKenzie, was elected on June 23, 19 66. He was re-elected in '69, '73, '77 and '8 1. That is truly a remarkable political career. He did not seek re-election in 19 86. Twenty years of elected terms in Manitoba is an achievement rarely met by members of this Legislature that have the privilege to serve.

He did not seek re-election in 19 86, and with his reputation I know he certainly had the credibility of his community to carry on when he made his decision to pass the torch to another member. Wally was from Plenty, Saskatchewan. He served in the RCAF from 19 41 to 1945.

You know, I am attending a funeral tomorrow of an old friend that served in the Second World War, and you are reminded when you read this. the material of James Wallace McKenzie, that, every day, people who fought and basically risked their lives so that we can have elections, so that we can have democracy, so that we can have freedom of the press, every day, another person passes away and another person takes with them the great fight for democracy that they risked their young lives for years ago.

I want to thank James Wallace McKenzie on behalf of his fellow citizens and his country for serving in the RCAF during the Second World War. Wally was the director of the Co-op Credit Society of Manitoba. He was a member of the Chamber of Commerce. He was president of the North Central Hockey League, and I do not know whether the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Lemieux) was influenced in his early hockey career in the Russell community and that quadrant of the province from his volunteer work in that regard. He was an executive member and officer of the Army and Navy Legion in Inglis, Manitoba.

He was married to Hilda Rose in 19 39. He had three children, Donna, Judith Anne and Glenn, and, of course, we know Glenn is the mayor now of Swan River and a person who is dedicated to his community and his fellow citizens, carrying on the political legacy of the McKenzie family. He was selected by former Premier Lyon to be the Deputy Speaker in 19 77, and one can imagine the criteria for a parliamentarian like former Premier Lyon in terms of making those decisions.

Even though I was not in this Legislative Chamber, I can imagine that this selection or this nomination to fulfill this duty was a clear indication of his knowledge of the rules and his ability to chair this Chamber, because I know that former Premier Lyon put a high priority on parliamentary democracy, the rules of the Legislature and parliamentary debate. * (1 530) Mr. Speaker, I know, aWol say, that Wally was well known by members opposite. I know he was well known by our members who served prior to 19 86. I am sure some of the more interesting stories wiii be revealed to us today.

I can remember some of them in the media, but I think it is safe to say that my experience with Mr. McKenzie was that he was a gregarious individual, a friendly individual, a feisty individual, one who could make his point with a sense of humour and one who always remembered his constituents. On behalf of our party, I would like to send our condolences to the McKenzie family and thank the McKenzie family for the contributions and sacrifices they made so that Wally could contribute so much over 20 years to our community and contribute so much over his 85 years to Manitoba and Canada. Mr.

Gary Filmon (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is also a privilege for me on behalf of our party and my colleagues to be able to say a few words in remembrance and appreciation of the life and service of James Wallace McKenzie. As the Premier (Mr. Doer) has indicated, Wally passed away in the midst of our election campaign this fall. It was a great shock and sadness to us. I was up in Swan River at the time, and his son Glenn, the mayor up there, was not there because he was with the family. We were all very saddened by it. I had sent him greetings and congratulations on the

December 13 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 509 occasion of his 85th birthday back in June, so we were very sorry not to be able to be there at the funeral of somebody that we all very much appreciated and admired. His legal name was James Wallace McKenzie. I only knew him as Wally or Warfield. I assumed that that nickname was because of Wallis Warfield Simpson, the wife of King Edward VIII, but Warfield was what he was often referred to within our caucus. He was absolutely a gentleman, a gregarious, friendly, warm, outgoing individual whose face always had a perpetual smile and a very strong handshake.

Wally was somebody who had lived life with people, and he was part of the group that Duff Roblin tried to surround himself with. Duff, when I sought his advice about how you seek a person to run as your candidate, he said you go to the community and you find the most popular individual in the community, and it does not matter what their politics are, you convince them to run for your party. After Wally served in the grain industry in Inglis and those of you who know Inglis know that it is the grain industry, all elevators, grain elevators there.

Regrettably none of them are functioning any longer and they have been named a heritage site because of all of these grain elevators lined up in this small community. But Wally stepped aside from the grain industry and started a general store and as the general storekeeper he knew everybody in the com munity, and everybody liked Wally and so he was a natural for Duff to recruit as a candidate for his party. Certainly there are many, many stories and they are all happy stories about Wally.

Even during the time that I was running against his son-in-law for the leadership of our party, Wally remained absolutely friendly, always had a kind word and a smile on his face. In the days after he was out of this Legislature, he would show up at events in Russell or Roblin or Inglis with a smile on his face asking where is Janice or how is Janice doing, and it was just a wonderful, wonderful experience to be in his presence.

I referred in my remarks to the throne speech earlier about feeling that I had served with giants by being elected as early as I did in 19 79 and being there at the end of some of the eras, people like the two Sauls, Miller and Chemiack, and Bud Boyce and Morris McGregor and so on. Well, Wally was one of those. He could stand up on the spur of the moment and speak on any issue with great clarity and great conviction and add to the debate very strongly in this House. Wally also, of course, added to the fun quotient in this House at all times.

In those days we sat three evenings a week and there was firstly the old St. Charles crowd, the St. Charles Hotel crowd who had essentially bunked together. People from all parties, Liberals, New Democrats and Conservatives, from out of the city lived at the St. Charles Hotel, and there was a very great camaraderie. The Premier (Mr. Doer) refers to the views of those who served with Wally from his party. Indeed many of them knew Wally as a friend because they all lived at the St. Charles Hotel and there were many social events.

In those days of course, with sitting evenings, there was always the question of whether or not you had enough time to go home for dinner or whether or not you would stay down and have dinner and with whom you would have dinner.

In our caucus, by the late '70s, many of the rural members now had apartments in the surrounding area to this Legislature, and being the generous spirited people they were and the very hospitable people they were, would always find a reason to invite somebody over and it might be that Henry Einarson had brought in some chickens or that somebody else had brought in some venison if it were the fall. But the other occasion always seemed to be that it was Wally McKenzie's birthday, so we had to have a get-together.

I can always remember as a rookie member of caucus thinking to myself, oh, gosh, well, that is a great idea. I will phone Janice and tell her I will not be home for dinner because we are celebrating Wally's birthday. Well, she caught on before I did that Wally's birthday seemed to come up with great rapidity and she said, well, it certainly is not a year since the last time you celebrated Wally's birthday. I finally figured out that Wally's birthday was a proxy for getting together and having a celebration, and it did happen more than once a

510 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13 , 19 99 year I am afraid to say, but it was always terrific and that was the signal that we would get together over dinner somewhere at one of the apartments downtown. The other thing, of course, and you see it in Wally's biography, he played and coached baseball and hockey. I can recall Wally, at 70 years of age, playing with us in a game against the media and playing very, very well. Wally was still a very able ballplayer. I was told that he was a semipro in his day. Certainly I believe that by his skill with the bat at 70 years of age. It was a sight to see.

He still laced on the skates, they tell me, well into his later years, involved in so many different things. The Premier (Mr. Doer) has mentioned the Legion. He was very, very proud of his service in the air force. He was a member of the Lion's Club, and he received an award for humanitarian service from that organization, honorary life member of both the federal and provincial Progressive Conservative parties. I was very pleased to be a part of the ceremony at which he was installed an honorary life member of our provincial party. One other story that I had almost forgotten was in this House.

We are not allowed exhibits, Mr. Speaker. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) recalls this. We were in opposition, and Wally got word from some people that, well, firstly, he happened to notice that there were pigeons dead around the building, and that seemed to happen regularly. Wally sleuthed out the reason why. Of course, Government Services, in their wisdom, had found that there was just too much mess around the building. The easiest way to clean it up was to get rid of the pigeons. The easiest way to get rid of the pigeons was to poison them. The minister got up and denied it.

The next day Wally came in, repeated the question, and reached under his desk and pulled out of a brown-paper bag a dead pigeon. The House erupted, of course. It made the six o'clock news. The Speaker ruled him out of order, but Wally made his point. That was Wally. He had so many different ways in which he contributed to life in this province. * (1 540) The other aspect of Wally was that he loved to sing. In those days we had a number of talented musicians within the caucus. Certainly my colleague, who I know will want to add to the discussion on this motion, the member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enns), was one who, like myself, sang with Wally at caucus get-togethers, but Wally was a musician. Wally had played in a dance band, in fact many dance bands, I understand, in the Russell area for many years and entertained with his double-bass violin at personal care homes even later on after his time in public office. Certainly Wally's family has much of which to be proud. They have a tremendous legacy of public service.

I want to, on behalf of Janice and our family and all of the people who have admired and worked with Wally over the years, offer our condolences to the family but also our congratulations on the legacy that he has left of great service to this province and great contributions to this province. To Pat, to Judy and to Glenn, to the nine grandchildren and five great-grandchildren, we extend to them certainly our best wishes in the celebration of a life of service and devotion to the province of Manitoba. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, I, too, am honoured to rise this afternoon to add a few words in the celebration of Wally McKenzie's life and to add a few words in the motion of condolence to his family in the recent passing of Wally. Wally was my first call when the election was called in August. My wife and I decided that we would begin our campaign by visiting our former MLAs in our area. As members know, Wally McKenzie and Harry Graham were both still living in our communities. Wally was our first call on that particular afternoon.

Wally and Hilda had just celebrated their 60th anniversary and Wally had celebrated his 85th birthday just a few months before that. Although Wally was suffering from some illness, he still was very much interested in what was going on in the campaign and indeed in how our province was progressing. Through the years that I represented our communities, I have to say that Wally was not

December 13, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 51 1 only a mentor but a great teacher in the ways in which an MLA should and could represent his or her constituency. As members have said, as the Premier (Mr. Doer) has said and the Leader, Wally was a long-time resident of the community of Inglis. He and his wife, Hilda, moved to the Inglis community shortly after they were married where Wally undertook to operate and to manage the Reliant company grain elevator at the time. It is still one of the elevators that is standing in the community and has been designated as a heritage elevator.

Just this past summer, there was a bit of a box lunch and a picnic next to the elevators, and the paint had come off the one elevator. It had not been restored yet, and you could see the Reliant name on the elevator underneath the paint that had come off, and we had a bit of a conversation about Wally's years as he operated and managed the Reliant grain elevator. Wally and Hilda became known in the community very quickly because of their tremendous participation in all aspects of the community lif e. As has been said, Wally participated not only in sports but in all avenues of community life.

He belonged to the com munity organizations, the Lion's Club and many other smaller organizations within that com munity as well as his church. Both he and his wife contributed very much to the community. As their children came along, their children learned that community life was important and they too contributed. Wally loved sports and was an athlete to be contended with, whether it was in baseball or in hockey. As a young man, I am told, there were very few people who could indeed compete with the skills of Wally, whether it was in baseball or in hockey.

But he went on, after participating actively himself, to coach many young people in our communities, not only in the community of Inglis but in Roblin and in Russell, and soon the entire area came to know Wally as a man who not only loved sport but loved people, loved young people and helped to develop their skills in sports and in community lif e. When Wally was elected in 19 66, it was no surprise to the communities that he represented because he was so well known in the area.

We talk about his love for music as well, and the bass guitar or the bass violin that he used to take with him wherever he went it seemed. He told me later-he said: You do not know how many votes this bass violin was able to get for me through the election campaigns. Because he would even take it with him during the campaign and in the evenings he would pull it out and get together with some folks and strike up a tune or two. It just got people together.

Christmastime or times of holidays, Wally would often find himself in the midst of some senior citizens with his bass violin, singing and playing this bass violin. When I became the MLA for the area, one of the first questions that was thrown at me when I came to visit some seniors was, well, what instrument do you play? Wally played the bass violin, so what instrument do you play? As it happens, I do play a guitar and I do sing a little, so I have done that a few times at some of the senior citizens homes.

But indeed many of our people in our community are going to remember Wally for a long time because of the tremendous contri butions that he made to his constituents. Wally was continually advocating for his constituents. I remember times when people would talk about the fact that Wally would try so desperately to do something for a constituent and, if he was not able to do it through the legislative process or through lobbying ministers, Wally would try to help the family, if they were in financial difficulty or if they were experiencing some difficulties in a personal way.

Christmastime would often find Wally delivering hampers to families that did not have as much as perhaps he did. He wanted to make sure that they enjoyed their Christmas season as well, a very generous man, generous to his family, generous to his community. Indeed today I want to simply express our condolences and appreciation to his family, to his daughters and his son, for a life that was lived in dedication to a community, dedication to the province and indeed to the country. I know that his family are very proud of the contributions that Wally made to this province and to his community.

Indeed all of us will remember Wally for many years very fondly for his contribution here in Manitoba. Thank you. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I also

512 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 99 want to put a few words on the record in terms of my recollections of Wally McKenzie. It is interesting, because until today I did not know that Wally McKenzie had any other name than Wally. *( 15 50) I sort of recall listening to some of the comments that have been made that he was really larger than life to begin with anyway. I think anybody who sat in this House will remember his many contributions in debate that have been alluded to. Ref erence has been made already to what I tried to use as a precedent as House Leader on a couple of occasions.

I used to call it the Wally McKenzie dead-pigeon precedent, but it did not work. What I think the Premier (Mr. Doer) sort of pointed to too is that when he did it, the way he did it. I still remember him reaching into his desk, and of course you do not know if some body is going to pull out a note or something, and out came this dead pigeon. Being a Monty Python fan, I kept waiting for a few comments from Wally, and he could have probably delivered it very well, sort of, this pigeon is dead. He had such a flourish.

The funny part was I still remember the grin on his face when he did it, because the whole House erupted. The Government House Leader was standing up on a point of order, and he was just smiling. He had made his point, and it will go down without precedent in Manitoba parliamentary history. In fact, he tabled it. That is the other thing that should be pointed out. He tabled the dead pigeon. I suppose that raises the question, because I assume when documents or items are tabled that we keep them somewhere in the Legislature, I am not sure where that pigeon is right now. Maybe it has been stuffed.

I am wondering if Binx Remnant, upon retirement here, is actually going to take that as a souvenir from his time here. But you know, that was very much the style of the times. I think it is hard for new members to sort of recognize probably the style of legislative proceedings we had in those days. The former Premier alluded to the fact that we had three evening sittings. We are right at the tail end of an era when I, as a new member, getting elected did not realize the seasonal nature of being an MLA in those days. We had no travel allowance out of session. It was assumed that we would sit.

Usually we would sit until we dropped, you know, speed-up and then we would go back to our communities and then return for a sitting. That did create an entirely different atmosphere in this Legislature. It is funny. I pushed in our caucus and I know as Opposition House Leader for 10 years, every chance I could get I wanted to reduce those evening sittings but, you know, with that sanity that came with fewer evening sittings, we lost the sort of social atmosphere of this Chamber. I think that it really was an important part of the life of many people, especially from rural and northern Manitoba.

What I also am struck by too, by the way, as look back on that period when I think of Wally's participation in the House is that it was a pretty controversial period. You know, we had the French language issue, the bells rang for a period of time. I remember, as a new govern ment member, the Government House Leader having the brilliant idea of coming in December, and this was somehow going to result in the session being speeded up somewhat.

We sat in December of 19 82, and we were still sitting in 19 84, but you know what was interesting despite the heat of the debate that took place at the time on that issue, I still recall the fact that at every session end, there was a tradition of members visiting each other's caucuses, any of the heat of debate was put aside. I still remember going to the Conservative caucus, along with many colleagues and joining the musical singsongs. I can still sort of picture the many players in the orchestra, Arnold Brown and Wally McKenzie being leaders in the band, and the member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enns) was a strong participant as well. I remember members of the press gallery there. What I am struck on, as I hear the comments today, is in many ways I think it came from a generation that went through the war, knew all too well the sacrifices of war and perhaps taught those of us of a younger generation about the joy of lif e. When I think of Wally McKenzie, it is probably something I did not see in his larger-than-life

December 13 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 513 approach to politics. It was probably very much a part of his experience, so I remember him fondly. I will remember far more than just that one particular incident. I remember his participation in the debates but also the fact that he, as strong as he would get in debates-and believe you me, he, like most members at the time, particularly rural and northern members, I think it was a real tradition and still is in some ways, a strong representation of constituency-! do not remember him saying an unkind word about anyone after the debate was over.

I think in a way that summed up his careers, a variety of areas of public service, a very important part of this Legislature. I know he will be missed by everyone that knew him. Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): I counted among the privileges of my life to have come into this Chamber at the same time as one James Wallace McKenzie on June of '66, and I too want to add my few words of condolences and appreciation for the life of Wally McKenzie. I agree with everything that has been said with one small correction, Mr. Leader. It was the St. Regis Hotel and not the St. Charles.

Indeed Wally, it could be said, was a charter member of the St. Regis Racing and Chowder Club that met on occasion Friday afternoons. We were not sitting and some very important caucus decisions were arrived at on those occasions, but I and the Minister of Highways alluded to it just briefly. It was a different era and one has to appreciate it. We have much more generously looked to the needs of MLAs today than we had then. We had no members' allowances, we had no constituency of fices. We were 22, 23, 21 members in opposition with the services of one receptionist-secretary and everything.

What I remember most about Wally McKenzie was no matter how serious the enjoy ment of the evening last was, he was at the desk in the caucus room writing out long letters to his constituents. He was a model for looking after his constituents. There was not a request from a constituent that he did not personally respond to. As I say, this was prior to the days that we had the resources that we today have. It was also known in his constituency that anybody from the Russell area or the English area that needed a ride home just had to be at the St.

Regis at around four o'clock or three o'clock on a Friday afternoon, and he would get a ride home. I do not think that Wally drove home very often without taking a constituent with him. Looking at my friend from La Verendrye, you are right, Mr. Premier (Mr. Doer), Graham and McKenzie, they formed a pretty formidable defence unit on our hockey team that we had fun with. It was an all-party team, by the way. We took on the city fathers, Steve Juba in the net, and Steve Patrick of the Liberal Party was our coach. You can imagine Warner Jorgensen and Sid Green on the same forward line. It was exciting.

But Harry Graham and Wally Mackenzie made a formidable duo on the def ence for the members of the Legislative Assembly hockey team. Well, Mr. Speaker, to the family that I know well, the memory of Wally McKenzie is very strong with me. He was a personal friend of mine. It was the Premier's call, as it always is, that takes one person into cabinet and leaves somebody else not in cabinet. It was my good fortune to be brought into the Duff Roblin cabinet immediately after that election, but I can honestly say and I think if Mr.

McKenzie were with us today he would say that that never interfered with the enjoyment that we both had in serving our respective constituencies and in serving the people of Manitoba to the best of our ability. One other thing I might say, Mr. McKenzie had, obviously with that record of 20 years of public service, a keen nose for things that were happening. I can recall him being the only one perhaps as we were moving toward the '69 election who held up the warning bells.

We were focused on the Liberal Party and their newly elected Leader who were the Official Opposition at that time with some 14 members, but Wally would remind us, watch the New Democrats, they are coming, and come they did in '69 to form the government. But those are some memories that I have of my dear friend Wally McKenzie. God bless him and our thoughts are with the family. Thank you.

514 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13 , 19 99 * (1 600) Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): It is my pleasure to rise today to put a few comments on the record in honour of Mr. Wally McKenzie. A friend of mine who taught school with me always said that the measuring stick that he used to judge a success was what his students said about him down the road. Would they have kind things to say about his performance as a teacher, or would they have bad memories?

Well, I took that same theory and applied it to conversations that I have had with some of my new constituents in the Roblin-San Clara-Boggy Creek area and had opportunities recently to speak with them about Mr. Wally McKenzie. Mr. Speaker, Mr. McKenzie passes with flying colours the test when it comes to having served his constituents. I heard nothing but positive comments from his former constituents whom he represented for nearly 20 years in this Legislature. One of the comments that was repeated over and over was that Wally knew everyone. There was not a time in a person's life when Mr.

McKenzie would not have sent a note or a card, whether it was a happy note on a wedding or a sadder note at the time of a funeral in the family. Wally McKenzie was always there for his constituents. His former constituents whom I now have the pleasure of representing told me that I could use Wally McKenzie as a role model in the way to treat constituents. They would go on to say that any of us in this Legislature today could use Mr. McKenzie as a perfectly good role model in how to serve your riding and how to serve the people whom your represent. They note that Wally had tha

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-13
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Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 13.pdf
Language	en
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