Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 70 (34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-70

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, November 14, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Economic Growth Manitoba Rate Mr. Reg Alcock {Osborne): Mr. Speaker , last Thursday in his opening remarks to the First Ministers' Conference the Prime Mini ster spoke with pride about economic growth in Canada. He took great pleasure in refer encing a numb er of provinces where growth has been particularly strong. Ho wever, he did not mention Manitoba, and with some good rea son. Mr.

Speaker, since this adminis tration took office there has been a net loss of 7,000 Manitoba jobs. Housing starts in this province are down almost 50 percent and 268 Manitob a busi nesses have gone bankrupt in the last nine months leaving more than $56 million in unpaid liabilities. Mr. Speaker, can the Premier tell us why there are 7,000 fewer Manitobans working today than in May of '88? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): We ll, as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker , the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) could not have been watching very closely, because the Prime Min ister did specifically mention Manitoba in his remarks.

They may not have been in the printed record, but obviously the printed record was what his prepared notes were. He did, as well on two different occasions, refer to Manitoba's growth rate as being amongst the highest in the countr y. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that- *

(1335) An Honourable Member: Where? Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the growth rate in Manitoba is projected to be 3. 7 percent, a full percentage point higher than the national average. In fact at its rece nt review the Conference Board projected that we would be growing by 5 percent this year, one of the two highest provinc es in the country. The Prime Minister did in deed make note of that, because Manitoba's growth rate is very positive. Things do look very optimistic, and we are very delighted with that. Gov ernment Strategy Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr.

Speak er, rebounding from a drought is not real growth. Manitobans are leaving this province. In fact one of the reasons why our unemp loyment statistics are not as bad as they really are is that nearly 10,000 people have left the province. The net loss of residents last year was the largest since the Lyon years and next year it is predic ted to be 13 percent higher. Mr. Speak er, the Premier often spea ks- in fact the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has spoken at length about the Govern ment's new vision, a different way of managing. Mr.

Speaker, to the Premier: why are so many Manitobans reje cting his vision of this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, let us talk about visions of this province by the Liberal Party. The Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) goes to public fora in Toronto and Vancouver and calls us "a have-not" province. Now that is a real inviting approach. Now that is designed to make people feel good about the province that you repres ent, to go around the country and poor-mouth the province that you come from. That is some thing she should be ashamed of; that is the Li beral vision.

The Liberal vision of this province is that we should have higher taxes. They have the opportunity to see taxes go down in this province, to have a 2 percent reduction in income tax for every Manitoban, to have an average savings of $450 per family, and they vote against it because they want higher taxes for this province. They are against lowering the payroll tax, they are against reducing taxes for Manitobans, 470,000 taxpaying Manitobans. They are against it. That is the Liberal vision of what we should do in Manitoba. They ought to be ashamed of thems elves. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honour able Member for Osborne. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker , we are becoming increasingly have-not under this leader ship. Personal Bankruptcies Mr. Reg Alcock {Osborne): We now lead the country in personal bankruptcies. During the last nine months, over 1,000 Manitobans have gone bankrupt. How does the Premier account for that? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that ther e would have been many, many more people bankrupt under the Liberal policies that they projected. The Liberals, during the past year alone, Mr. 2818

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Speaker, advocated $700 million more be added to the deficit or the taxes of this province. That was what they did day after day after day during the past year. Their idea of how to make Manitobans better off is to impose $700 million of addition al expenditur es to raise the debt so that they would have more interest to pay, or to raise the taxes of this province by $700 million. That is a crying shame, that is why Manitobans have no concept and no idea of supporting the Liberal vision, because it would cost them money in their pockets and would drive more and more ind ividual Manitobans into bankru ptcy. *

(1340) Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, this Government's record is 7,000 fewer jobs, a 53 percent increase in personal bankr uptcies, a 70 percent incr ease in corporate bankruptcies, and people moving out of the province. Will the Premier answer the question? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member's question is repeating in substance a question which was previously asked, and therefore out of order. Unemployment Rate Women Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speak er, women over 25 have been particular ly har d hit.

Wh en this Government took office last May only 4.6 percent of that employable group were unemp loyed; today 7.4 percent are. Now how does the Premier account for this record? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , since this Government has been in office there have been, looking at the continuum of January -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order. Order , please. The Honourable First Minister. Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker , if the Member for Osborne would like to look at the statistics that have been presented I would recommend that he look at January to October of 1989, versus Janua ry to October of 1988, the entire performance of the first 10 months of this year, because that is what people base it on, not fluctuations from one month to another. Mr.

Speaker, employment increased 1.5 percent, 7,000 persons on a seasonally-adju sted basis; full-time emplo yment increased 1.2 percent, 5,000 persons on an actual basis; part-time employment increased 2.4 percent or 2,000 perso ns on an actual basis; unemp loyment decreased 3.8 percent or 2,000 people on a seasonally-adjusted basis; and the unemp loyment rate decreased 0.4 points to 7.4 on a seasonally adjusted basis. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Mr.

Filmon: So over a 10-month period, which is what you are looking at as a year-over-year basis, we have done much better than last year, and we are very proud of that accomplishment. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, I am looking at the 18-month record of this Government. Federal Equalization Payments Reduction Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, on a new question. In the Prime Min ister's opening remarks at the First Ministers' Conference, he stated that federal transfers are simply too large to be exempted from efforts to control our deficit.

These transfers fund health care, univ ersities, child protection and a wild range of services to vulnerable Manitobans. To the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). these transfers have already been reduced because of actions taken by the federal Government, and they were reduced further in this last budget. Can the Finance Minister tell us what further reductions he is expec ting, as a result of the Prime Min ister's statements? Hon. Clayton Manness (Mi nister of Finance): Mr. Speaker , equalization transfers for '89-90 are forecast at $852 million.

At this point in the fiscal year, we appear to be right on path toward that figure. With respect to '90-9 1, it is too soon at this point in time to ind icate what specific num ber we will be working towards with respect to equaliza tion. I would think and I would expect at this point in time there will be some small increase in the total num ber of dollars coming to Manitoba under equalization in the next fiscal year. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, the federal Government is right now making their decisions about their budget, which will be announc ed in April.

In light of the Prime Minister's statements, can the Finance Minister of this province clarify for us what the Prime Minister is speaking about? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker , obviously the Member is not aware of the methodology in place as to how we as a province ultimately determine and find out from the federal Government how it is and what it will be, in the form of a quantitative measurement of our total transfers. That information is presented to us in a next to final form, usually in late Januar y or during the month of Febru ary.

At this point in time, we are led to believe that particularly with an equalization, particularly within the Canada Assistance Plan, that there will be some increases, and with respect to the established program financing area that there will be more or less a static num ber. Economic Growth Initiatives Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we warned the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) last week that the Prime Minister is going to cut back on our transfer payments. We were disappointed that it was not in the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) statement at the First Ministers' meet ing last week.

My question is to the First Mini ster, and it is based on his statement at the First Ministers' mee ting. At the 2819

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 First Ministers' mee ting, the Premier of the province said, Manitoba is on the move. Maybe the Premier should have said that Manitobans are on the move, right out of the province. ..

(1345) My question to the Premier is, what is he going to do to keep Manitobans in the province? What is he going to do to keep Manitobans in the province? What is he going to do with the fact of the matter that Manitoba has the second worse bankruptcy rate for busi ness bankru ptcies and the worst rate for consumer bankru ptcies in 1989 of any other province of Canada? What is he going to do about it to turn around our economic opportunity for families in Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speak er, you know after I made that opening statement the Leader of the New Democratic Party is quoted as saying I did an excellent job and that he really agreed with every thing I said. Now he has changed his mind when he gets back to this Legislature. He says one thing in Ottawa and another thing in Manitoba. Will you make up your mind? Mr. Speaker, clearly Manitoba has the second highe st overall tax regime in the country, thanks and courtesy of the New Democrats who were in Government for 15 of the last 20 years. They put in place punitive taxes that tax jobs, that destroy jobs.

They put in place tax measures that burden down individ uals and businesses so that they could not compete with other people across the countr y. Since we have been in Government we have lowered taxes. We have reduced the deficit, and we have done all of those things to ensure that we can have a more competitive climate. In a speech that was given a couple of weeks ago by Mr. Jack Fraser, one of the captains of indus try in this country, he said that the New Democrats had created such a negat ive climate in this province that it was im possi ble for any busi ness to look at opportunitie s.

That is why we are starting to look at ways in which we can change that climate, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Doer: You have a lot of trouble quoting Mulroney's fundraisers in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker , in terms of objective financial analysis. There used to be a sick joke in this country around 1980-81- the last one out, please turn off the lights. That was under Sterling Lyon, and we are starting to see it under this Govern ment as well. Job Creation Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): My question to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) is, what is he going to do to reverse the job creation situation in Manitoba, which is ninth in Canada, in terms of revers ing the situation where Manitoba's employed has gone in 1989 to a certain level back to 1985, as opposed to other provinces where it is advancing in terms of job situations in the country? He has gone four years back in 18 months. 2820 Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Really, Mr. Speaker, the answer is economic growth. That is exactly what is happening in Manitoba's future.

We are projected to have the second highe st overall growth of any province in Canada this year, and next year we are projected to be above the national average again- above Ontario, above Albe rta, above many provinces in this country because our policies are starting to demonstr ate to people that there is confidence to be put in Manitoba, and investment to be put in Manitoba. Employment Training Program Implementation Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): The numb ers clearly indic ate that there are 12,000 people -(interject ion)- The Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr.

Connery) makes a comment from his seat . There are as many people less in the labour force today in Manitoba than there are in the whole community of Portage la Prairie, in 18 months. My que stion to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is -(interjection)- Well, it is about 10,000 to 12,000 people. My question to the-well, that used to be under NOP, it has probably gone down under Conservatives, Mr. Speak er. ..

(1350) My question to the Premier is, will he reinstate some of the job creation programs that were in effect before, which obviously resulted in full-time jobs? There are 13,000 less full-time jobs in a year and a half than there was when the Government started. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, order. The Honour able Memb er for Concordia. Mr. Doer: Will he reintroduce some creative jobs for future programs, job training programs with the private sector to get this economy going rather than driving people across to other provinces? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I will quote the Leader of the New Democratic Party as to what he thought were the biggest effects of the Jobs Fund when he was then presi dent of the Ma ni toba Government Employees Association. He said they created more jobs having people put up those green and white signs than they did in anything that lasted in the Province of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. That is exactly what he said.- (interjection)- He said that was the major accomplishment of the NDP's Jobs Fund, Mr.

Spe aker, the NDP's policy of short-term, make-work jobs that resulted in nobody being left employed after the mone y was spent, resulted in higher taxes, higher debt, and the poorest business climate in this entire count ry. We are not going back to that. Economic Growth Government Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): In October of 1987 there were 413,000 full-time jobs

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 in this province. In October of 1989 there were 407,000, Mr. Speaker . Any way the Premier tries to cut the rhetoric, he is failing in creat ing full-time jobs and full time opportunities. Also he has assigned to this province the for sale signs, the foreclosure signs and closed signs in this province. The Premier smiles, but he is doing nothing to get the economy going. My question is, what economic strategy has the Premier got for Manitobans so that we can stop this exodus out of our pro vinc e and start provi din g opportunities for Manitoba families in Manitoba? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speak er, lower taxes for ind ividual Manitobans; 2 percent reduction in their income tax; increase in their tax deduction for children from $50 to $250 per year; a savings to individual taxpayers of $6 1 million per year; lower busi ness taxes; the payroll tax being eliminated. For 70 percent of those who had being paying it prior to our taking Gove rnment, now they are off the payroll tax. Reduction of the debt what is it lead ing to? Five percent growth, the second highest of any province in the country, and projected to be above the national average in economic growth next year.

That is the policy, that is the direction, and it is a very positive one. Repap Manitoba Inc. Swan River Plant Delay Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr. Spe aker, my questions are to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and concern the Repap opportun ity. We unde rstand that 60 people have been laid off in Sprague as a result of lack of cutting rights, and the Mem bers will remember the Swan River plant was designed to replace and fulfill a need for a waferboard plant there, and tree cutting rights were integ ral to that part.

Now we see that the Minister, after seven hours of meeting with Repap officials, they want to renege and withdraw the Swan River deve lopment. Mr. Speaker, I asked yester day what the impact would be on The Pas and the Swan River facilities from the delay in the communities, and I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough to tell us what the negative imp act of the delays that are anticipated will be? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, with due respect, the question is almost incoherent. I have trouble really gaining from the question specifically what it is the Member wants to kno w.

Let me say though that Repap has absolutely no intention in withdrawing from the Swan River area. Mr. Angus: Mr. Speaker, the question yesterday and the question today is the same. What is the impact on these communities from the delay in action that is being perpetrated upon us by this corporation? What is it going to cost us in delay? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker , I think I heard the Member say that the delay was being perpetrated by Repap with respect to the communit ies.

As I ind icated, Repap is at this point in time still waiting for the Environment Commission to make a report to the Department of the Environment as to whether or not there should be a licence granted. That has not occurred yet . Repap is well within the terms of the agreement, and inde ed can do nothing until the Govern ment, after hearing from the Environment Commission, decides whether to grant a licence or not. *

(1355) Asset Recovery Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): My question is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). Is Repap going to be allowed to continue to remove $1. 5 million a month, or $18 million annually, from Manfor's bottom line? If the corporation defaults , is any of tha t mone y recov erable in any way? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like the Member to state his case in greater clarity. Is he today alleging that $18 million a year is being made at Manfor and is being withdrawn from the Province of Manitoba?

I can assure the Memb er that the Government of Manitoba has a tremendous amount of call on any liquid assets of old Manfor, so to speak, and consequently his thesis is com pletely wrong. Crow Benefits Impact Rail Lines Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): A few days ago, made available to us was the consultant's report on the impact of a change of payment of the Crow benefit. While this is a rather supe rficial report, it is admi ttedly a preliminary one, but it does open up quite a few questions.

One of the things that it makes very clear is that a change in payment would result in a major increase in the producer's cost of shipping grain, particularly for those produc ers who are on branch lines. My question is to the Minister of Transport. Does the Min ister have any projections that would ind icate what change would occur in the utilization of these branch lines as far as grain shipment is concerned, and how would this impact on rail line abandonment, rail line rehabilitation and associated freight services for people on those branch lines? Hon.

Al bert Driedger (Mi nister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, we have grave concerns as to what the possible impact would be. It is for that reason that I have people of my staff who are on the comm ittee that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) has set up to look at the impact of any changes in paying the produ cer, because most certainly if the movement was in that direction, we anticipate ther e would be changes in terms of rail line abandonment. It would probably escalate that. There would also be an impact on mun icipal and provincial roads.

Most certainly these are things that we bring forward to the comm ittee, and bringing our concerns forward in terms of potentia l impact that it would have. We do not have any specifics on it at the present time. 2821

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Impact Highways Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): The Minister has alluded to the impact that this would have on the road structure, both the highways and the market roads. Does the Minister have any information as to what the increase in maintenance costs would be, or to put it bluntly, how much would it be and who is going to foot that bill? Hon. Albert Driedger (Mi nister of Highw ays and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I think it is premature to speculate as to what the cost would be because the action has not been taken.

This kind of action is under discussion at the present time. Once something more definitive comes down-m y staff is looking-but it is very hard to establish what the trends would be until we have a definitive policy that comes down. Crow Benefits Impact land Values Mr. Laurie Evans (fort Garry): A final ques tion, and this one would be to the Minister of Rural Develo pment (Mr. Penner). It is clear from the report that the increase in costs of grain shipment to the producer would be somewhere in the range of 300 percent to 400 percent.

Can the Mini ster give us any ind ication of what impact this would have on land values, particularly in areas where produc ers are producing grain specifically for the export market? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker , the Honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mr. Laurie Evans) asks a question that I think he does not have an answer for and neither do I have an answer for. However, I- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. *

(1400) Mr. Penner: -want to say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I beli eve the study tha t is un der way and the consultations that are going to take place with the commun ities in this province will give us a fairly clear indic ation as to what the assessments of the commun ities are on the impacts that they are going to incur and the economic benefits that might in fact accrue from this sort of a position. Thompson Crisis Centre Closure Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Minister of Communi ty Services (Mrs. Oleson) in regard to another crisis situation in her department.

At the end of this month the Thompson Crisis Centre will be forced to close the office it has had open for 2822 more than a decade in Thompson. In fact it is having to relocate entir ely to the shelter in our commun ity. What is more, this will result in the loss of many services the centre has provided up to this point in time, and the centre is faced with a situation of running out of funds by the end of this year. All we have seen from the Government is an audit. There has been no commitment to long-term funding in dealing with the critical situation facing the crisis centre. My question is to the Minister.

Will she intervene personally to ensure that the crisis centre does not have to close down its office in Thompson and to ensure that it is able to continue to offer the very needed programs it has offered for more than a decade in the community of Thompson and throughout the North? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Yes, my staff have been working tor some time with that particular agency to ensure that we get all the details of the problems concerning their deficit, and certainly it is not the intention of the department to close that centre. Minister's Intervention Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I am ask ing the Minister to intervene directly because the Crisis Centre is going to be closing its office at the end of this month, and that will result in cuts in providing counselling to men, for example, which is 10 percent of its caseload, and result is cuts of services in other areas. I would like to ask the Minister, will she intervene now? We are only two weeks away from the situation where they may have to close their office, and while they will be able to continue some services in the NorWin Shelter, they will have to el iminate many of the services they offer currently. Hon.

Charl otte Oleson {Minister of Family Services): It should be evident to the Member with the increases that this Government has made in the whole wife abuse field that we are inte rested in the perpetuation of these badly needed services to women. I will inquire further as to the situation as it is today, but my und erstan ding is that the department has been working very closely with this group and hopes to resolve their problem. Service Reduction Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I have fina l supplemen tary, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the funding increases are not helping the shelter in northern communiti es, I would like to ask, will the Minister look at maintaining the current services and provi ding the same type of services available in Winnipeg, in particular a funded 24-hour crisis line which is not available currently, is run totally by volu nteers, before we face the loss of that service? Right now the crisis centre in Thompson is faced with having to shut down a lot of services it currently offers because of the lack of su pport from this Min ister and this Govern ment. Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): I totally reject that there is a lack of services and interest

Tuesda� November 14, 1989 by this Government in shelters. I think a 47 percent increase in funding to that particular area is definit ely commitment. Now with regard to the crisis lines, the Mem ber should be aware that very soon the provincial crisis line is going to be put in place in Winnipeg to deal with the provincial, out-of- Winnipeg, shall we say, crisis. That will go a long way to helping the people of Manitoba. Bill No. 3 Statistics Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minn edosa): My question is for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae) -(interjection)- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker , Bill No. 3 has been law in Manitoba for two weeks and is of great interest to Manitobans. Can the Minister advise the House how it is working? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I thank the Honourable Member for his interest in the protection of Manitobans and I will attempt to give him a response respect ing figures I have received from the City of Winnipeg police. I do not have figu res for the whole province but those num bers will be coming in too.

We unde rstand that in the City -(interjection)- of Winnipe g-i t would be the first time-sin ce November 1, when Bill No. 3 was proclaimed, there have been 63 apprehensions and licences suspended; 11 of those were suspended drivers and their vehicles were seized. Seventy-five vehicles have been seized under Bill No. 3; 11 of th ose were suspected impaired drivers and their licences were already suspended. There have been five appeals of the vehicle impoundments. Two of those have been successful, and three have been denied. So 73 vehicles are being held in towing company compounds.

The Honourable Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) asks about- ***** Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. The Honour able Member for Thompson, on a point of order . Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): This is important information, but I would sugg est it would be more appropriately raised as a minis terial statement since the Minister obviously has had this statement prepared. I would ask that he not waste the important Question Period time, and raise this information as a ministerial statement, tomorrow perhaps. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order.

I would like to remind the Honour able Minister that answers to qu est ions should be as brie f as possi ble. The Honourable Minister of Justice to finish his answer. Mr. Mccrae: Of course, Mr. Speaker, my answers should be brief and to the point, and that is exactly what I was doing. I would remind the Honou rable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) that very seldom in this Session have Mem bers of the Government Caucus asked questions in this House. We do not think that we are being abusive at all. ***** Mr. Mccrae: As I said, the Honourable Member for Concord ia (Mr . Doer) asked about Brandon.

It might interest him to know that the first apprehension in the City of Brandon was also a suspended driver so that driv er lost his li cence and his car in the same occurrence. Over this past weekend there were 32 impaired driving matters, and six were already suspended and had their vehicles seized. There were 19 suspended drivers and the legislation appears to be working well in protecting Winnipeggers and all Manitobans. Ryan Sais Social Assistance Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): My question is to the Minister of Economic Securi ty.

Yesterday in this House I raised the unfortunate case of 12-year-old Ryan Sais, whose social allowance has been callously and unjustly cut off by this province. His mother has been told to tap the $10,000 that was awarded to Ryan eight years ago for injuries sustained in an accident. This mone y is intended -(interjection)- to com pensate Ryan- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Rose: -for his injury when he turns 18, and not to pay for the food he eats, the clothes he wears, or the roof over his head. I first raised this issue with the Family Services Minister (Mrs.

Oleson) on October 18, nearly a month ago, without any response. Yesterday the Minister kne w little about what I was talking about. So I would ask her again today, will she finally take action? Will she finally intervene on behalf of this child and restore the $245 per month, plus drug, dental and other valuable benefits that Ryan Sais is entitled to under the Canada Assistance Plan? Hon.

Cha rlotte Oleson (Minis ter of Family Services): I took the opportunity yesterday to review this when the Member raised it, and I should tell the Member that the staff had acted in accordance with regulations that have been in place for some time. However, I have asked them to review this policy in light of this type of thing, because I do have great concern for this young boy, and I have asked staff to review this policy in light of the fact that it is a policy that has been there for some time, but it may have implications that we may have to look at. So I do assure the Member that we are looking at that. Mr.

Rose: That is great for the study, Mr. Speaker, but what is this Minister going to do for Ryan, who is desperate right now? 2823

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Social Assistance Regulation Amendments Mr. Bob Rose (St Vital): Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion to the same Minister. Ryan's mother is indicating that the loss of assistance to her son may indeed force her into a desperate situation to tap this $10,000 fund prematurely and use the money for other than its intended purposes, as I stated earlier. In my view this province is blackmailing this family.

Will this Minister pledge today to change the welfare regulation, which she knows is flawed, that allows her department to cut off assistance to a 12-year-old child because a court awards him a sum of money as compensation for a personal injury? Why has she so far seen fit to abide by this ludicrous regulation? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of family Services): Mr. Speaker, if the Member was listen ing, I indica ted in my previous answer that we are reviewing that and looking at the implications of changing that regulation. Mr.. Rose: Mr.

Speaker, obviously Manitobans will know quite well, as will her colleagues, that is not good enou gh-s tudy, study, study. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. I would like to remind the Honourable Member this is not a time for debate; this is Question Period. Ryan Sais Social Assistance Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Vital, kindly put his question, please. Mr. Bob Rose (St Vital): My question is to the same Min ister. Mr. Speaker, a promise to look into the matter is cold comfort for this family. What they need is a Minister who is prepared to take action now to help.

Why does this Minister choose to go along with this callous policy? Why is she prepared to let this family suffer by cutting off social assistance? Why is she forcing them to use funds for food, clothing and other necess ities- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The question has been put. The Honourable Minister of Family Sarvices. Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of family Services): Mr. Speaker, I will repeat again for the edification of the Member that I have undertaken to review this policy, in the light of what implications it may have, immedia tely, and see what we can do for this young fellow. *

(1410) Parent-Child Centres Interim Funding Ms. Judy Wasylycia-leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speak er, I have a question again on the Parent-Child Centres. As Mem bers know, there is a crisis facing those centres with the closing of Elgin, and the potential closing of Ellice and Strathcona. This time I would like to ask my question to the Minister of Education.

Will the Minister, on behalf of the hundreds of families and children in the inner city, on behalf of the over 3,500 single-parent families in the inner city, on behalf of the ethnocultu ral communities who depend on this service, on behalf of those who realize that this is the best program around in the inner city for mums and their ch ildren, convene a meet ing with his own department, his colleague, the Minis ter of Family Services, her department officials, the school board officials, and the members of this very im por tant communit y organiza tion, will he call a meeting immediately and come up with an interim funding arrangement so that this tragedy does not have to happen?

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker , once again I have to tell the Memb er for St. Johns that certainly my department does not have the mandate to fun d all types of organizations of this nature who do not have any connection with the school system in this province. I have to indi cate also that we have met with these Parent-Child Centres who are the street-based parent child centres, and we have ind icated to them that as the Department of Education we can only fund them through a program called the Com pensatory Program, which they have to apply through their divisions.

If they can approach their school divisions and their schools and get that school division or school to suppor t them by applying for a com pensatory grant, then we would look at that positively in a committee that is responsible for that and we will certainly consider that. Ms.

Wasylycia -l eis: Gi ven tha t the Min ister of Education has told these groups to go to the school board to get some policy statement of support, and they are doing so this even ing, can the Minister tell this House whether or not a positive policy statement from the school board will guarantee some immediate access to the Compensatory Education Support Fund, regardless of whether or not that centre is physically located in a school? Mr. Derkach: Well, once again, Mr. Speak er, the Member for St.

Johns is being somewhat foolish in the way that she poses the question, because she is indicating that any time there is a request made by anyone we should automati cally fund it, regardless of the criteria that have to be met, as long as we just keep thr owi ng mone y at situations. That is an irresponsible way to look at things . Certainly the Member for St. Johns should know better. Mr. Speaker, the only way that funding can be accommo dated for those kinds of situations is within the mandate and the criteria that are set for compen satory funding.

If in fact that Parent-Child Centre meets those criteria then there would be a possibility to look at it in a positive way. 2824

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Winnipeg Education Centre Ca pital Construction Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Johns, there is time for one very short question. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker , to the same Minister with a new question.

Given that the Core Area Initiative tomorrow will make a decision about reallocating the half a million do llars now slated for capital construction costs of the Winnipeg Education Centre, will the Minister give a commitment to this House and to the Manitoban people today that he is prepared and his Government is prepared to proceed with the capital construction of the new Winnipeg Education Centre, some thing which the Minister's own review supported, and will he- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Order. The Honourable Min ister of Education. Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Education and Training): Once again that qu estion was asked a week ago. Had the Member been in the House, she would have listened to the answer at that point in time. I indicated to the House last week that in fact there is a study that is nearing completion with regard to the Winnipeg Education Centre, a study that has not been undertaken since the Winnipeg Education Centre was es tablished, and was necessa ry. ***** Mr. Speaker: I would like to rem ind the Honourable Minister that the -(interject ion)- Oh, the Honou rable Member for St. Johns (Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis), on a point of order. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Yes, on a point of order. I believe that the Minister did not hear the question and realized I was asking him about the fact that Core Area, tomorrow, will make a decision about reallocat ing the half a million dollars slated for capital construction for Winnipeg- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. The Honourable Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). ***** Mr.

Derkach: I would like to finish the answer to this question because it is an important issue, and in fact it would be pointless for us to go through the exercise of getting a study done and results of that study made known and still make a decision before those results are known. So, Mr. Speaker , we will wait for the results of that study and then we will make the decision with regard to the Winnipeg Education Centre. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMM ITTEES Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Chairman of Committees): Mr.

Speaker, might I have leave to revert to Present ing Reports by Standing and Special Committees? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert back to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees? (Agreed) Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker , the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resol utions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), that the report of the commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. ORDERS OF THE DAY *

(1420) Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Honou rable Minister of Hig hways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Commi ttee to consider of the Supp ly to be gr anted to He r Majesty with the Honourable Mem ber for Minn edosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Member for Burrows (Mr.

Chornopyski) in the Chair for the Department of Co-operative, Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs. CON CURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HEALTH Mr. Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): Order, please. I would like to call this

section of the Committee of Supply to order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Health. When the comm ittee last sat the committee had been considering item 3. Community Health Services (

a) Regional Services:

(1) Salaries, $26,434,600-the Member for Ellice. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Chairman, yesterday the Minister said he would have a sheet-a process written out for me in terms of responsibilities of the authority of regional directors in regard to job responsibilities of their su pervisors within the region. Does the Minister have that information today? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Chairman, the ADM is not here yet. I am hoping that he arrives when she arrives. Ms. Gray: Yesterd ay, having had a chance to look at the

schedule where Mr. Toews has been hired, it does 2825

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 ind icate in his

schedule that one of the elements he is to incorpo rate in the new regional structure is office management functions in each office location vested with a single position. I am wondering if the Minister could explain what that phrase means, or that sentence. Mr.

Orchard: Maybe this is not going to be a complete enough answer, if it is not my honourable friend will pose another qu es tion, but basically the office management function in there is to co-ordinate and assure delivery of clerica l work, et cetera, et cetera, sche duling of vacations to make sure that those are happening in a co-ordina ted fashion throughout the region and would be a Clerk 5 level . Ms. Gray: The Minister has then ind icated that this office management function deals specifically with clerical /adminis trative staff as opposed to field staff. Mr.

Orchard: I think that is a reasonable conclusion. Ms. Gray: Who then is responsible from the di strict offices to ensure that the office runs smoothly, i.e., that when someone walks through the door and wants to see a worker that in fact staff are available; that in fact, all the Mental Health staff and all the Public Health staff do not take vacation on the same day, et cetera, et cetera, day-to-day operations. Mr. Orchard: That is one of the issues that is under discussion.

We are pointing toward an appointment of one of the more senior people in that office to make sure those functions happen, in terms of client service and they are followed through on, and completion of task is somewhat more assured. Ms. Gray: I can appreciate somewhat that the Minister does not have ail the details of this reorganization but my question is, given what the Minister has just said that as an example they are looking at appointment of a senior person who may carry on some of those functions.

Will all those details be clarified before jobs and positions are bulletined so that in fact staff will know exactly the type of jobs that are available and what they may or may not be applying for? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, that is the ultimate goal and hope we come within a high relative degr ee of percentage of achieving that in terms of es tablishing the job description for yet to be advertised positions. Ms. Gray: It is good for the Minister to say you want to achie ve that.

Does the Mini ster however feel that in fact that particular component, i.e., clarifying those details is critical given that that very problem has caused and attributed to some of the grievances that are now on the books? Mr. Orchard: That is why Government has taken a very deli berate and a slower than some would appreciate time to resolve this issue. Pro blem identification has been one aspect, discussion and feedback has been another aspect, interdepar tmental mee tings has been another aspect and we finally concluded with the retention of Mr.

Toews to give us the best advice on how to bring this whole issue to an equi table reso lu tion. Again, the specifics of my honourab le friend's qu est ion are cer tainly being considered and hopefully will be add ressed. *

(1430) My honour able friend has worked in the Civil Service and knows that the goals that are set sometimes are simply not met That was certainly the case in this whole reorganization, certainly the case. We do not intend to create problems in the proposal we are deve loping. I cannot give my honourable friend a job descri ption where the responsibility for such and such a senior position at 1200 Portage Ave nue will be to unlock the door at 7:53 in the morning and then lock the door at 6:02 in the ev ening. I cannot say that is going to be part of the job description.

As tightly as possible, job responsibilities will be part of any advertising we do and certainly any description of job respo nsibilities to those indi vidua ls inv olved and work ing within the system. Ms. Gray: I have a little trouble with the Minister's response because the example he gave of locking and unlocking the door sounds ludicrous to me. I have never seen that written in position descriptions, unless the Min ister is looking at position descriptions that the rest of us do not have access to, and the only ones I could think of would be his Cabinet Ministers.

I do not know which positions he would be referring to. That is not what I asked at all. What I am saying is that in fact my question was: will there be clarification of the structure including whether in fact there is a senior person desig nated in the offices so that staff, when this reor ganization occurs, will have the opportunity to know exactly what options they have open to them and what possibly they should be applying for, if in fact those jobs are bulletined?

That is the question because if they do not know and do not have those opportunities, some people may move into positions and end up being in classifications either of a higher classification or a lower classification and they would have gone into those jobs with less than adequ ate information. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I believe I have answered in the affirmative to that question approximately a dozen times already. That is why I responded, at 7:53 the do ors are unlocked because my honourable friend used the word in her last question as she used before, "exactly" was the word she used.

Exactly means unlock the door at 7:53, read ing her terminology of questioning, and I am telling you that is not going to be in the job description, but as close as is conceivable in designing job descriptions the duties, the responsi bilities and the expectations will be laid out to those individ uals who are either in the positions or will be applying for the positions. Now if that is not clear, my honourable friend can ask exactly what needs to be clarified and I will attempt exactly to do that. 2826

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Ms. Gray: Well, the record will show how many times, if at all the Minister has answered the ques tion. I would sug gest tha t he might want to review position descriptions and get an orientation from the Civil Service Commis sion but there may be some problems in doing that as well. With a further question to the Minister, he ind icated yesterday that exit interviews were common practice and I was not sure if he was suggesting they were common practice in the northern regions or in fact if it was common practice across the province. Could he clarify? Mr.

Orchard: The question was fairly specific, if I recall the question from the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). It was, have you determined why it is difficult to staff in Norman, in Thompson and in Parkland, to a lesser degree, but nevertheless different circumstance than in the rest of the province. When the question was asked specifically on those regions the answer was that we are attempting to determine that and we have unde rtaken exit interviews with those individuals leaving positions in those regions. Ms. Gray: Have there been exit interviews conduc ted in the Winnipeg regions?

I ask that because -are there any regions where in fact within a particular component, i.e., clerical, or public health, continuing care, has there been any notice of a high turnover of staff in the last two years? Mr. Orchard: I am informed that is a regular occurrence throughout the regions. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister ind icate if there has been any pattern that has developed and I think in particular of clerical staff, thinking of certai nly a numb er of staff changes? Has there been a noticeable pattern in terms of why staff are leaving any particular types of jobs? Mr.

Orchard: Not that staff has informed me. Ms. Gray: The Minister has said that now there will be a movement back to one region. Will there, as well, be a movement back to a centralized rec ruitment and training service for the Continuing Care Program? Mr. Orchard: Discussions are pointing us in that direction, but we have not finalized the mechanisms. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister tell us, does he have information today as to what the cost is of the various office buildings that his department is renting? Mr.

Orchard: I do not have that detail today, if my honourable friend wants some answers we will attempt to provide them. If she would provide office buildings by name we could attempt to provide them. If you have any specific buildings that you want information on, then please- Ms. Gray: The specific building I am inter ested in, because I unde rstand ther e may now be very few staff on the 5th floor, 352 Donald, I am wondering if in fact there are any staff there if we are still paying rent on this building and what we are using it for. Mr.

Orchard: I am told we have some staff there but we are making the surplus space av ailable to Government Services on an as needed basis. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister know what we are paying for rental of that space? Mr. Orchard: No, the Minister does not know, but he will try to find out for you. Maybe I can help my honourable friend. Apparently all of the space is purchased by Government Services and we do not contribute towards the cost of it. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister ind icate, in Estimates last year I raised a concern about ratio of clerical staff to profess ional.

If I recall, I am not sure it was a concern by the Min ister or his staff. Has there been any type of workload review or have there been any concerns expressed over the past year ab out the cleric al component? *

(1440) Mr. Orchard: Yes, and certain processes are in place right now. Decisions have not been finalized. Ms. Gray: I notice under the staffing component for the regions that the numb er of SYs have not changed from last budget year and in fact I do not think it changed from the year before. Can the Minister indicate, have there been any increases or decreases in any programs in staff years for the reg ions? Mr. Orchard: Are you talking all regions, Winnipeg regions? Ms. Gray: All regions? Mr. Orchard: All regions. I will answer the basic question. There has not been any change in the staff complement.

There have been some changes within the mix. We have some gains and losses compared to-in terchanges within Family Services which net out with us having the same complement. We have had one SY transferred from Resource Co-ordination or to Resource -h ow can you have two "froms"? I have got two "froms" for one person. I stand corrected, we have had a change of one-half staff year, down.

It involv es a transfer of three staff years from Family Services, two transferred to Family Services, one transferred to Mental Health Promotion, one transferred to Mental Health Rehabilitation, one transferred from Brandon Mental Health Centre, one transferred to Brandon Mental Health Centre, a half SY in that case. We have had three transfers over on the fitness group, of cou rse as we discus sed in Health Promotion, over to Ind ustry, Trade and Technolo gy. Ms. Gray: The two SYs transferred to Mental Health, are those SYs with bodies attached or were they just vacant SYs? Mr.

Orchard: It did vary, somet im es with body , sometimes without body. 2827

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Ms. Gray: The two positions I think the Minister mentioned, Mental Health Rehab and the Mental Health Promotion, with those particular SYs are those vacant positions that have been transferred? Mr. Orchard: How be we discuss that when we get to Mental Health? The staff in Menta l Health might be appropriately able to answer that. Ms. Gray: If the reg ions had the positions and transferred them, surely they would know if the staff went with them. Mr. Orchard: We will give you every detail we can. We have all the time in the world.

The position transferred to Mental Health Promotion was a position with individ ual attached, Ivan Seunarine, the Mental Health Rehabilitation was a position which was vacant. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister have information on staffing positions at the regional levels where there are SYs or term positions held by Health, but they may be being utilized for Family Services work? I ask that question because of the teams or the concept at the field level where we have Family Services positions in Health.

Is the Min ister aware if any of his positions which have been designa ted for Health are actually being used for some work in the Department of Family Services? Mr. Orchard: I am informed that it crossed the system as two to three positions which, depending on need between Family Services and the Department of Health, may be used for short-term recru itment to fill a specific need. Ms.

Gray: Since there has not been any upward change or even downward change in the staffing complement of the regions over the last couple of years, I suppose we could assume that there is no need expressed by reg ions, et cetera, for any increase in staff, or that in fact the needs expressed and somewhere along the way that those positions get cut before it reaches Treasury Board. Could the Minister ind icate, first of all, have there been any workload reviews done in any of .. the regional programs that he is responsible for in , Health in regard to resources available to those programs at the field level ? Mr.

Orchard: Yes, and one of them is, as l mentioned earlier on in a question, under clerical. There has been a workload review on clerical. Recommendations are being pursued, as my honourable friend can appreciate, some of these recommendations have staffing and financial implications in which ther e is a process of Government inclusive of Treasury Board and Estimates which have to be followed through on. A review in some regions is contem plated for both Continuing Care and Public Health. The Continuing Care one is in process. Ms. Gray: Is the Continuing Care one workload review or is it caseload reviews? Mr.

Orchard: I am informed it is a workload review. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister indic ate, were there any requests for increases in staff in any of the various programs from the reg ions for this budget year? 2828 Mr. Orchard: An easier question to answer would be, were there no requests for increase in staff, to which the answer would be no. *

(1450) Ms. Gray: My qu est ion is, gi ven the in creased emphasis, at least on paper, of this Government towards health promotion, and disease prev ention, given that as far as Government staff is concerned, the two profes sionals or programs that usually deal with that area are public health nurses and home economis ts, can the Minister explain why there has been no increase in any of these type of staff over the last num ber of years? Mr.

Orchard: Not that I want to be critical of my honourable friend in the tenure of this question because she can correct me if my assumption is wrong, but I detect from my honourable friend's question that she is reflecting her Civil Service employment where it becomes the mentality that the only people who can deliver health promotion messages are civil servants. Therefore, if you are commi tted to health promotion you hire extra staff. Mr. Chairman, that is exactly the opposite to what we endeavoured to do in terms of the health promotion paper.

We have not initiated a substantive effort to hire more civil servants to deliver health promotion messages. We have seconded, invited and participated in a partnersh ip forum with many people in Manitoba who are already there in the various non- Government organizations, in the workplace and various organi zations throughout the province, who are already there in delivering health promotion messages to Manitobans in their own right, be they the Heart Foundation, be they the Lung Association, Diabetic Association, et cetera, et cetera.

As a result of the announc ement and a substantial amount of discussion with those non-Go vernment organizations, those not-for-profit groups, those many thousands of volunteers in Manitoba, we now have upwards of 30 formal partnerships in process and formulation and active with various groups assisting and acting as partners in health promotion throughout Manitoba, with a modest budge t using existing volunteer and already delivered programs enhanced with the assistance of health promotion in Govern ment.

Genuine partner ship, not simply the creation of an image of health promotion because we have hired more staff, but real deliv ery at the community level by building upon the strengths of many organizations out there that have worked in isolation from each other and from Government by bringing them together in terms of the genuine partnership in Health Promotion, and we see that already showing signs of success and it is only the first step. We think there is substantial opportunity to build on that good will, that desir e in the community to deliver a Health Promotion message in partnersh ip with Government.

So that is why there has not been a substantial in crease in Health Promotion staffing because we believe and we think we are on the right track and we think there is success in terms of the

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 approach of inviting those already in the community to help us with Health Promotion. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, well, I have no problem with the partner ship in a combi nation of Civil Service and commun ity , but in the examples even that the Minister has given he refers to excellent organizati ons, Heart Foundation, Diabetics Association , but they all deal with specialized programs to special ized target groups.

What commun ity organizations are out there that deal specifi cally with the areas of family nutrition and/or deals specifically with single parents on a low income in regard to their nutrition choices in the whole area of lifestyle for that particular target population? Who does that, who is responsible for that? Mr. Orchard: Well, as we discus sed for a substantial amount of time last week, that is an approach in which several areas of the Department of Health provide information. They provide that kind of informatio n, that is what the "Towards Healt hier Eating" message is in part targeted towards.

Now my honourable friend, if you want to rehash nutrition after we have passed the Estimates that is fine, but we dealt with the issue I thought in a rather complete and full manner last week. If my honourable friend wants to revisit, I have all the time in the world. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Chair person , I am not necessarily re visiting an issue, I mean I think the answer is clear by the non-a nswer from the Minister that in fact the whole area of single parents and actually doing the individ ual tea ching with them prov iding what I would call "storefront opportunities" where you have a trust rel ationship with the commun ity and you begin to work with these families.

In fact that has always been a low priority of the past admin istration and continues to be a lower priority with this admin istration because staff have only so much ti me, and how much of that time is spent on ind ividual health promotion activities and working with these families? Again, we supposedly did not have the statistics in Maternal and Child Health, the amount of time is very low, but as the Minister is aware, he is correct, we could sit and de bate the whole area of service delivery and nutrition and how you reach people in target populations for the next three days but we will not do that.

A further ques tion- Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Chair man, you see my honou rable friend was into this issue in Materna l and Child Health in which at that stage of the game I ind icated that a substantial amount of counselling was provided one on one, exactly as my honou rable friend has brought forward. Now those are single mothers, part of the counselling involves nutrition, how they ought to feed thems elves in their pregnancy period, that is exactly the one-on-one counselling my honourable friend is talking about today which we discussed at substantial length I believe last week.

Now as I say, I have all the time in the world to talk this over with my honourable friend , the home economis t, who knows all of the answers even to questions that have not been asked, but you know ther e comes a time in comm ittee when an answer is given and if does not happen to suit the fancy of my honourable friend , I mean we can keep on repeat ing the answer, repea ting the answer, repea ting the answer, I have all the time in the world. Ms.

Gray: Well, pregnancy is not the only time that we deal with nutrition in families and the Minister can talk about the qu estions and the answers in the prec eding references that we have dealt with in Supplementary Estimates, but once you read through the answers you could probab ly condense it into about a paragraph because the actual information that the Minister has provided as opposed to rhetoric is very, very little.

So whether the Mini ster does not have the informati on, chooses not to give the information, or does not have the interest in disease prevention and health promoti on, I do not know the answer to that. I will move on to another area though. I have one other area that I want- Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if my honour able friend might offer me, because this is one area she did not ask about, my honourable friend might recall the political fire storm that erupted about four years ago or thereabout s in terms of removal of the home economist within the Department of Health.

One of the functions of those home economists which we fought for -(interjection)- well, my honourable friend says that is not the issue and she has not even listened to the answer yet. Goodness gracious, I have to sit here and lis ten to your qu es tions tha t could be summa rized to one word.- (interjection)- Yes, let us sum marize the questions.- (interject ion)- Mr. Chairman: Order, please. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, part of the reason why in Opposition we believed the Government was making an ill-advised move in the home economists was because part of the work of the home economists was nutritio nal cou nselling to single parent families in the lower income bracket in the core area, City of Winnipeg. They provided advice on how you shop wisely and economica lly and how you budget in a household, and how you make a limited food dollar give you the greatest nutritional value.

We had fought for the retention of that program and it still is serving that low income target group of primarily, not exclusively, core area single family poor, and poor in general. That is another initiative. I realize my honourable friend did not ask that que stion, but when she is asking what is Government doing to meet the needs of these people, Government is undertaking a num ber of initiatives.

Then when my honourable friend asks, well, you cannot be serious as Government about Health Promotion because you have not hir ed 1,500 civil servants to deliver a Health Promotion message, I say that is not what we are doing. * (1500) 2829

Tuesday , November 14, 1989 I used the example, and then my honourable friend said, oh, well, that is not good enough, because that does not reach a target group of the lower income people, the single parent families, and I have just given her two examples where we meet with those people even one on one as we discussed last week . I do not know how more definit ive I can get in terms of program description for my honourable friend. If she is not satisfied with those answers, then carry on with the questions, I have all the time in the world. Ms.

Gray: If the home economists, and the Minister has brought this up dealing with low income families in the core area, I must dispute, in fact, we even have a certain proportion of our home economist staff working in the inner city as opposed to the suburbs. Perhaps the Minister could give us that break down? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I will provide tha t information to my honourable friend. Ms. Gray: I would suggest that what may happen is in fact that you have less home economists working in the inner city per population as you do in the suburbs.

Again I question the validity of the Minister's statements in regard to working with inner city groups. The Minister-and I have admitted this before -talks about home economists in the Department of Health. He did not save staff positions in the Department of Health. He tried to save the directorate and I have said in the past on record, the Minister did a good lobby job, so did the home economists across the province do a good lobby job, but with the help of the Member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard), the now Minister of Health, did do a good job of trying to salvage that particular home economics di rectorate.

I have no qualms about saying that at all. Mr. Orchard: 3:02 compliment. 3:02 p.m., Tuesday, November 14. Ms. Gray: The clock is fast-and that is it for the year. Mr. Orchard: A compliment from Avis Gray. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Ellice. No, I ju st have a qu estion on the r.omr1"1''"'"'"'r1 system on home care. There have been some concerns expressed that there are computers in the district offices for resource co-ordinators and that in fact they are sitting idle, they are not being utilized, and my information could be not up-to-date.

Can the Minister ind icate if the computers that were designed, the programs for use by resource co-ord inators so they can do matching and assigning, is that program fully operational? Mr. Orchard: I am informed that is part of the MSSP system which until we develop proper controls which is done and is being tested and implemented very shortly. Ms. Gray: Well, if I recal l, the program or system was being tested about two years ago. Have there been some glitches and what has been the problem or the holdup with implementing this program? Mr.

Orchard: Apparently it was developed and ready to go last fall, but concerns were expressed and those concerns were investigated and the program was put on hold until those concerns were resolved. it is now presumably piloted in Eastman region and ready to go barring any unforeseen glitches in Eastman region. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Well, I do not want to be left out of the Minister's diary so I have searched diligently for a reason to compliment the Minister- Mr. Orchard: Another compliment? Mr. Storie: I have not found one yet. Mr. Orchard: Well, strike him off the record. Mr.

Storie: But I assure you that I will continue to search and I am hoping that after I am finished my questions I will actually have a reason to complim ent the Minister. I would like to deal for a moment with the issue of northern primary health care. I know that the community of Sherridon, for example, was looking for the services of a public health nurse. I unde rstand they currently have a community health worker but were looking to upgrade their services, and I am wondering if the Minister can indi cate whether Sherridon might expect to be accommodated in the near future. Mr.

Orchard: That issue has been discussed at the departmental level and the regional level and there are no imm edia te plans to put a public health nursing position into Sherridon. Mr. Storie: No compliment for the Minister. Mr. Orchard: Okay. Mr.

Storie: Num ber 2, I am hoping that the Minister, the department and regional staff are reviewing the requir ements in Sherridon and not only in terms of perhaps some arbitrary guidel ines that deal with the numb er of community residents required before the department determines that it is appropriate to provide that kind of service but it is a fairly isolated communit y.

I am sure the department is incurring considerable cost in transporting people back and forth from that community under somewhat treacherous circumstances because the existing pioneer standard road that goes into the community is not always passable and certainly not capable of bein g of much use in emergency circumstances. So I hope the Minister will keep an open mind, and the department will keep an open mind in terms of providing that service. I had some other questions about the possibility of establishing a breast scree ning device, a mammograph in the Flin Flon area.

The Minister received a petition of some 1, 100 residents of the Flin Flon area requesting some additional services. I think the rationale that they 2830

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 used to ma ke th e request were qu ite though tful particularly acknowledging that Flin Flon is an aging communit y, that there are many, many elderly single women in the commun ity and those num bers continue to grow. They seem to be an at-risk group. I am wondering whether the Min ister, first of all, can ind icate whether the advisory comm ittee on breast screen ing programs, whatever the title of that comm ittee was, has reported as it was supposed to do in October, and if it is reported, what the results of that report might be. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, before I move into the mammography program, I do not want my honourable friend's comments to leave the im pression that there are no community health services in Sherridon. There are community health workers there who have been there permanently and public health nu rses who reg ularly visit. That circumstance has existed for a numb er of years.

There has never been a permanent public health nurse at Sherridon, including the 19 81- 1988 period that my honourable friend was a Cabinet Minister and no doubt made that request to his Minister of Health across the Cabinet table, not across the Estimates table. I do not want my honourable friend to leave the im pression tha t we are trea tin g the res ident s of Sherridon in a different manner or fashion.

We are probably using the same sort of decision-making criterion for staffing that were used from the time when my honourable friend was a Cabinet Min ister and have come to the conclusion that particularly with fluctuating populations as happens from time to time in a mining community that we find the services of the communi ty health worker permanently in residence and of public health nurses in on a regular basis to be not an ideal circumstance.

Obviously a community would even like to have a physician there, but certainly a reasonable position I think it is one that has been consistent for the last numb er of years. * (15 10) Turning to the ma mm ography program , my honourable friend might recall that we annou nced a mammography initiative in the throne speech debate and we have sinc e tha t anno un cement struck a comm ittee of fairly broad mem ber ship on mamm ograp hy.

They are in the fina l stages of dev eloping a report which will provide best advice as to di rection of Government and how we unde rtake a mammo graphy scre ening prog ram and how we implement that program throughout Manitoba. One of the things that I asked to be part of, it was a balanced opportunity for service del ivery including rural and northern Manitoba. They are also dev eloping for us what they think is a best estimate of the financial implications of such a program. I have not received that report, it simply is not ready at this stage of the game.

I am expecting that the concerns expressed by Flin Flon, which are not unique, they are concerns expressed by women across the province, outside of the City of Winnipeg, will be add ressed in any proposed program that Government would unde rtake. 2831 Mr. Storie: In reference to the Minister's comments about no significant change in terms that the primary health care as provided in Sherridon, I did not indic ate that was the case. The community of Sherridon in 1987 and '88, the circumstances were substantially different.

In fact, there was at that time an operating mine and 140 emp loyees in the area and in fact plans were afoot, a facility was placed in the community for the purpose of housing a public health nurse. The community I think was expecting that th ose services would be available and of cou rse circumstances have changed and I think everyone recog nizes that, but they do need nonetheless I think the services of a community based public health nurse to deliver primary care.

I simply made the case tha t there ma y be ec onomic arguments tha t the department can make to facilitate that, to justify that, so I simply ask the Minister to continue to look at it. If he wants a compliment, then I would expect that he will be generous in his review of that matter. I wanted to also comment on his suggestion that the circumstances in Flin Flon were not unique.

I have reason to belie ve that perhaps they are unique, both in terms of the num ber of women who are above the age of perhaps 50; the percentage of elderly residents in the communi ty; its isolation; the cost for Manitoba Health Services of providing this service when service is provided out of the community; and the cost to the individuals who have to transport themselves if the costs are not covered by the Northern Patient Transportation Program. So I think that there are all kinds of reasons why this may be quite unique.

Not trying to downplay the needs of other rural re sidents, or other northern residents, but there may be an arguement for placing on a priority basis the needs of this community and this region. The Minister indicated that he did not have the report. I contacted his staff who ind icated that the report was on the Minister's desk. Mr. Orchard: No, I have not received the report. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, if the Minister has not, the fact is that the report is certainly available. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect to my honourable friend, I have not received the report.

It is not ready, I am informed, to be brought to me and I have not received the report. I cannot answer for my honourable friend who has contacted as he says "a staff" who says that the report is on my desk because that simply is not accurate. It is not on my desk. It is not ready to be put on my desk, and it is a coming out of the-my words are on the record. I hardly think my honourable friend would think that I would put myself in a position of saying a report was not ready that was sitting on my desk.

I am anxiously awaiting the mamm ography report so that we can get on with the job of preventative health care for women in Manitoba, something that has been advanced by a numb er of people for a num ber of years. The report is not ready and is not on my desk. Mr. Storie: The Minister seems quite exercised that I would suggest that. I am simply reporting what his

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 department has told me to be the case. Now whether the Minister has a faulty memory or perhaps the Minister does not check his desk regul arly. ***** Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. Mr. Chairman: The Honourab le Minister on a point of order . Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, now my honou rable friend says: just saying what the department has told him. It started out with "a staff." Now it is the department, the Assistant Deputy Minister, who is in charge of the program is ind icating the report will be ready shortly. It is not completed.

Now surely my honourab le friend is not going to ind icate that some started out staff, now the department is right, and I am wrong when I am saying that I have not received the report. Where is my honourab le friend coming from? Mr. Chairman: A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. ***** Mr. Storie: The Minister is very obviously defensive about this. My concern is whether the Minister is genui nely concerned about moving in this area. He has said, well, it is an area of concern and not only in rural Manitoba but in other parts of the province, and he is right.

My concern is that the report be acted upon as qu ickly as is pos sib le. My concern is tha t the implementation of that report do justice to the needs of my constituents, the people in the Flin Flon area, as well as other parts of the province. If the departmental staff are ind icating the report is ready in some form, then I would certainly want the Minister to be aware of that, to make himself aware of that, and to act as expeditiously as possible to develop a scre ening program for the Province of Manitoba. This is a very serious matter.

I gue ss if the Minister has not seen the report then I have to accept from him, his mouth, that he has not seen the report. I simply ask him: will he be releas ing the results of that report after he has taken the time to familiarize himself with it? Will he release it? Is that going to be a public document, or is the department preparing to implement that without a further round of consultation? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend now said well there is a report that may be ready in part or in whole.

I am simply saying that when the report reaches me, which it has not yet because it is not com pleted and ready , tha t it will be acted upo n exped itiously . This Government did not make the commitment, first time ever a commitment has been made in mammography by any Government in the history of the Province of Manitoba, we are simply not interested in doing anything but pursuing it as a health initiative of the Province of Manitoba. Let my honourable friend sleep well at night, Government will act expeditio usly on the report.

When 2832 I have received the report and reviewed the report, the public nature of it will be dete rmined. I cannot ind icate to my honourable friend, without seeing a report, how it will be dispensed with. That decision will be made when I see the report. *

(1520) Mr. Storie: I would assume that if the Minister knew his business, if the Minister had actually given this task force specific instructions, and he ind icated in his previous monologue that he had given them specific ins truc tions to deal with the whole qu estion of implementation and asking for a balance in rural and northern Manitoba, but if he had actually structured the task force terms of reference in a logical way that he would be ready to implement as soon as he received the report.

Now he is saying, well, he is giving himself leeway for inaction and what the people of the province want, what women want in particular, is action. I would like to know whether the Minister is intending (

a) to release the report when he has a copy of the report in his possess ion, a final and complete copy. Is he planning to release it, and (

b) is there to be consultation prior to the implementation of whatever is recommended? Two simple questions. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend's specific question before was, will the report be made public? I indi cated to my honourable friend I have not seen the report, therefore, I have not made a decision in that regard. My honourable friend transferred that into some conclusion in his mind that we were going to delay implementat ion. That is not correct, and I have ind icated that to him on three different occasions. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Chairperson, this would not be the first time this Government, or this Minister, has used the tactic of revie wing a review to delay implementing some thing. The Minister will forgive me if I attempt to get some commitment from him, in terms of what his intended course of action is, and what the prospects would be for ind ividuals who might want to have some input before there is implementation. The Minister cannot seem to answer those questions. That is fair enough. I guess people will have to guess about the motives of the Minister and the necessity of his particular course of action.

Guessing is always of course subject to error, and the Minister will have to pay the price for that guessing as well. He certainly left the Opposition no choice but to gue ss what the intentions, are and that is not always the most successful. I was asking the provincial gerontologist whether they had any figures, with respect to the predomina nce of seniors, elderly, in Flin Flon, in northern Manitoba. I am wondering if the Mini ster has had a chance to pull any of those figures together. Is there a simple source, an accessible source so we can- Mr. Orchard: We are checking, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Storie: One of the other things that Community Health Services does is help to deliver enriched services,

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 enriched seniors services, enriched housing and the whole range of additional services that are provided to seniors. I am wondering whether the Minister can ind icate-it says support services to seniors I am only guessing that is in this-Mr . Chairperson, am I in the wrong line, what does support services to seniors mean in the context of Community Health Servic es. Mr. Chairman: Yes, we covered the suppo rt services for seniors yesterday in some detail. Mr. Storie: You will have to forgive me, Mr.

Chairperson, I was not in attendance at the discussions, and I am just wondering if the Minister can provide the comm ittee with a list of the projects that are underway in the province and their loca tion. There is a suspic ion, certainly in northern Manitoba, and perhaps rural Manitoba as well, that the range of services that are available in some communities, and particularly in larger communiti es, simp ly is not avai lable in northern Manitoba. That is primarily because of cou rse there are not the same numb er of service groups; there are not the same num ber of volunteer organizations.

Those organizations do not have the same depth as the organizations in southern Manitoba. I am wondering if the Minister can give us that information, if we could have some idea of where those enriched services are available and where they are not. Mr. Orchard: First of all, Mr. Chairman, let me tell my honourable friend that support services for seniors, although we have already passed the item, I am quite willing to give my honourable friend some information.

Support Services for Seniors is a program whereby Government approves volunte er-ba sically the financial assistance for a community organization, or group, or community resource council to hire a volunteer co ord inator. From thence the communit y themse lves determine what range of addit ional services will be provided, based on the uniq ueness of the communit y, its specific needs, the demographics of its population, lack in terms of commercially available services, et cetera.

If my honourable friend is ide ntifying some areas in his constituen cy wher ein he believes there is an inadequa te provision of services, my honou rable friend ought to approach the communit y leaders in that commun ity.and indic ate to them that should they put a proposal together and approach Su pport Services for Seniors that they may well qualify for financial assistance for the hiring of a volunteer co-ord inator, and the volunteer co-ord inator can then make efforts with the community to provide for instance, Meals on Wheels, friendly visiting, telephone visiting, drive to shop, volunteer driving programs, not-for-profit yard cleaning services, not-for-profit home repair services, not-for-profit home cleaning services, a whole range and plethora of services, which the communit y thems elves can implement using volunteers or not-for profit services.

It is enti rely at the behest, Mr. Chairman, of the communit y. I would answer my honourable frie nd's specific questi on, there are a numb er of organizations who are currently funded under Su pport Services for Seniors. The Ashdale Holdings Inc. in Ashern is one; the Gimli Seniors Resources Council Incorporated is another; the Bethel Me nnon ite Care Services In corporated in Winnipeg is the third; the Brandon Housing Authority Incorporated is another; the Chalet Maloin Inc. in St.

Malo is another; the Roblin Communi ty Help Centre is yet another; the Dauphin & District Community Resource Council is another; the Ethelbert Support Services to Seniors Inc. is in existence; the Fisher Branch Medi cal Facilities Incorporated is another; the Foxwarren Leisure Centre Incorporated is supported by Support Services for Seniors; the Foyer Vincent Inc. in Winnipeg is another; the Franklin Manor Incorp orated in Dominion City is another one; the Gateway Manor Inc. in Teulon is another; Gladstone Area Senior Suppo rt Program Incorporated is another- ***** Mr.

Chairman: On a point of order, the Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, we have limited time here to ask the Minister questions. I had asked whether the Minister could provide us with that and I appreciate the Minister's co-operative spirit in terms of read ing into the record all the 56 different projects. My question though for the Minister's edification was, could he tell me whether there was any northern project? If there were could we have those provided in a list to us as well. Mr. Chairman: Order, please. The Member does not have a point of order. The Honour able Minister. ***** Mr.

Orchard: Well, because this list was distributed and his colleague sitting next to him has it I thought I might help out with the commu nication in the NDP Caucus and read it out to him since his colleague did not share with him information that was given to this commit tee yesterd ay. Now let me take the time and I will find out whether there are any in northern Manitoba. I will provide that information to my honourable friend if I can find it. Is Swan River close enough? Swan River Senior Citizen Centre Inco rporated. No, that will not do. There surely must be one. An Honour able Member: The northern Parkland.

Why do you not just give him a list? Mr. Orchard: I already have tabled the list and I am reading it for my honourable friend. I want to tell you that in the list that I have here now there are none from my honourable friend's constituency and ther e is absolutely no reason that I can conceive of that Flin Flon as a communit y-spirited town would not want to apply to Sup port Services for Seniors. I would give my honourable friend my personal obliga tion that if such an application were to come in that I would have the Support Services for Seniors staff expedite the approval 2833

Tuesda� November 14, 1989 of that so that Flin Flon can get on with providing a wide range of services to their senior s in their communit y. •

(1530) Mr. Storie: Well I appreciate the Minister's undertaking, it is most gracious. My point in asking, however, was not- Ms. Gray: There is your compliment. Mr. Orchard: Oh, what time is it? Three- thirty. That is two in a day. Mr. Storie: However, my point in asking was not specifi cally related to Flin Flon. The Minister missed the reference to the fact tha t in many northern communities, including areas where there are senior cit izens housing, for example, Wabowden, No rway House, there are no service groups. There is no Kiwanis Club, there is no Rotary Club, there is no Lions Club.

There are very few volunteer organizations. The fact of the matter is that these communi ties have a more difficult time in formulating responses to these kinds of initiatives. The Min ister, I guess, may be rightly proud of the fact that there are so many projects across Ma ni toba deve loping the partner ship in healt h, whatever. The fact of the matter is that it may need a different approach in some other communities and Flin Flon certainly is not the most und erserviced area when it comes to seniors services.

There are many other smaller communities that simply will not or do not have the resources to access this kind of program ming. I am wondering whether the Minister is prepared to offer some support for those communities that do not have a volunteer sector in the communit y. Is that possible? Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend talks about Kiwanis and Lions et cetera, et cetera. I just want to tell my honour able friend that the vast majority of these support services for seniors programs are not involved directly with a service club.

They are a group of ind ividuals, community-minded, communit y-spirited indiv iduals who have got togeth er. ! want to share with my honour able friend one that I think is a very, very interesting one. It is the Hamiota Seniors Council Incorpor ated and there is one other communit y. I will get the second one for my honourable friend. The Hamiota Seniors Council Incorporated is a group of seniors thems elves who have said we have an obligation to our community in Hamio ta.

This community has given us our opportunity for livelihood, a lifestyle, an enjoyable environment to raise our families, a tremendous commun ity, and we participated in the benefits of that commun ity. Therefore, upon retirement we believe we have a contribution that we should continue to make to the Commun ity of Hamiota and the surro unding district.

As a re sult, a group of communit y- minded, commun ity-spirited seniors got together and formed the Hami ota Seniors Council Incorporated, and they unde rtook with a co-operative effort, a partnersh ip with Government, to achieve funding through support services for seniors so they can offer as a group of seniors, working with other seniors in their commun ity, a range of programs that Gover nment does not provide . That is seniors he lping seniors.

As a matter of fact, there is a conference ongoing in Brandon, Ma nit oba, right now, seniors helping seniors, just exactly the kind of community spirit that my honour able friend the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) so desires to exemplify in his constituency and in communities of northern Manitoba. I want to tell my honou rable friend I am here and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) is here to participate with those community-minded individuals in northern Ma ni toba in my hono urab le friend 's constituency.

We will help and assist them with a formulation of their project to access funding for them for programs that they, on a volunteer basis, want to create as about 117 other commun ities in the Province of Manitoba have done, in a desire to build upon community strengths for seniors to help seniors and for commun ity-spirited, community-minded individuals to have a vehicle and a forum to make services more readily available to those seniors in their communities that they want to say, enjoy your retirement in our communities and here is how we are going to help you.

We are prepared to join and form a partnersh ip with the communit ies in my honourable friend's constituency. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the Minister's rhetoric- Mr. Orchard: Rhetoric? Mr. Storie: The fact is the Minister does not understand the nature of the commun ities that we are talking about. It is quite obvious by his comments that we are not talking about the retired Royal Bank manager and the retired -(interjection)- whatever . In most of these communi ties they have very few professional people retire in their commun ities.

Obviously by the fact that this program has been ongoing for a numb er of years- Mr. Orchard: What a slap in Hamiota's face. What a silly person. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I did not reference any communit y, for the Minister's information, but my point tha t I am making is that these communi ties are substantially different in their makeups than many of the commun ities that are refe renced in this list and in what these communities need by virtue of the fact that there are out of 117 no northern communities. If that does not tell the Minister some thing, he is being dense.

The fact is that what I am asking for is, is the Minister prepared to provide some su ppor t for these commun ities in terms of develo ping and understan ding what the programs are, deve loping and understan ding what might be ava ilable, and work ing with the communiti es, not reac ting to some thing the communities request. The need is still there whether the communities have requested it or not. 2834

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Is the Min ister exte nding his invitation now for de partmental staff to get involved in this search for a better life in these northern commu nities? Is that what he is offering? If that is what he is offering, it is somet hing different than he said in the first instance. Is that what he is offering? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, you know my honourable friend has sat around the Cabinet table where the support services for seniors program was app roved in terms of its approach.

It was an initiative brought forward I bel ieve primarily by Betty Havens, the chief provincial geronto logis t. It was an initia tive tha t understood the needs in the commu nities. It was approved , and my honourable friend says I agree. It was approved by a Cabinet that he sat around. My honourable friend, I just want to tell him that nothing has changed in the Govern ment's approach. The guideli nes are the same as what he approved back in 1985. My honourable friend says that I am dense in tha t I do not unde rstand the needs of northern Manitoba.

Where in the world was this brainchild of the North, the Memb er for Flin Flon, when it was approved and he left out criteria that would apply to northern Manitoba. You want to talk about dense, I consider that ignorant. Mr. Storie: What the Minister does not appreciate is that in fact there was very little seniors housing in most of remote northern Ma nitoba until the pre vious Government got inv olved. Ye s, the Gov ernment introduced the support to seniors program, and yes, there have been some successes.

The question now becomes, does the Minister have the will or the ability to change the guidelines to reflect the fact that to this point there have been very few northern projects approved? Does the Minister have the will to improve the program? That is all we are asking. I am not placing the blame, I was not being critical of the Min ister for not changing criteria. I simply asked, is he prepared at this point to acknowledge the fact that the criteria are not working in northern Manitoba, that it is time to do something different to make it work.

If the Minister has to use the offices of the com muni ty health re gional offices or his own departmental staff, is he prepared to do that? That was the question. Mr. Orchard: I am not only prepared to do that, we are already doing it. We are working with groups in Thompson, we are working with groups in Flin Flon, we are working with groups in Lynn Lake, we are working with groups in Cranberry, we have two proposals in The Pas, all of which we think with the gu idance of our Government and the wonderful efforts of the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) will come to fruition.

I think that is a pretty significant change in mentality since May 9 where communities in northern Manitoba are all of a sudden recei ving recog nition from this Government. Mr. Storie: The Minister cannot have it both ways. He just says he did nothing to change the guidelin es, that they were exactly the same. He cannot go ahead and take credit. I am glad to see that there are some proposals on the table. *

(1540) If the Minister would listen for a minute, if the Minister would acknowledge that Flin Flon-1 said I did not think Flin Flon and The Pas were the most unde rserv ed. The fact is that there is good accommodation for seniors, there are seniors projects there and most of the communiti es he mentioned, more than one. My question was more directed to Wabowden and Norway House and the smaller communities where there are also seniors residents, where there are increasing num bers of seniors and whether they could access some of the benefits. The Mi nister tel ls us there are proposals.

It is disappointing that the Minister has not been able to approve any of those points, but I am assuming that will come, even with the guidelines that we est ablished. The Minister is trying to take credit on the one hand and say things are impossible on the other because of what the previous Government did or did not do. My question is, is the Minister going to be working providing staff to support the needs of those smaller communities in northern Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, let my honourable friend unde rstand. Certainly, the guidelin es have remained the same. The policy has remained the same.

There is now pro-active work with the commun ities that I have mentioned to guide them in their establishment of Su pport Services for seniors programs. That initiative is available to any community in Manitoba. Is my honourable friend suggesting that Government has to lead community initiative if the need is ther e and the communi ty recognizes it and my honourable friend, the MLA for the area, is aware of the programs? Why would my honourable friend as an MLA not inform the commun ities as to the wonderful benefits that are there for them if they approach Support Services for seniors?

I want to tell you that what I did from time to time, and maybe this is a different philosophy of being an MLA than my honourable friend holds. As an MLA, I would be approached by or gi ve suggest ions to community groups on how they cou ld access Government programs, what was available, and how they go through. I would put those groups in contact with the appropria te personnel and whatever appropriate department. I would be the facilitator between need in a co mmunit y and avai labi lity of Government programs.

My honourable friend seems to be suggesting that the MLA in his area is not adeq uate to do that and Government must do it for hi m. Well, he just said no, he was not, that he is adequ ate. Get on with the job. Inform your communities, let them know it is there. It has been ther e for five years and the MLA has not let his communiti es know. Surely my honourable friend is not saying Government is at fault when the MLA has not communic ated with his own residents. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, the fact of the matter is that most of those communities do not have -the 2835

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Min ister does not understand the nature of those commun ities. Is the Minister saying that as an MLA, I can call for the support of the Department of Health staff to attend meetings in those communities, that they will undertake, show some initiative, when it comes to assisting in the preparation of plans and proposals in those communities? If he is then that is a new service and we are glad to have it Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, I am shocked and disma yed that the MLA for Flin Flon who sat around Cabinet would not know that staff of all departments are available to explain community programs on request by the communities. That is a dismaying piece of information that my honourable friend has put on the record. Of course this Government is willing to work with commun ities and have staff fully available to explain programs that they may be able to become part of. My honourable friend, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), was comple tely unaware that was a role of Government.

I am shocked to hear that after eight years as an MLA he is finally learning that. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, I do not want to get into the de bate between the two Members here. I think the point though, of the Member for Flin Flon, is that there are communities in which the organiz ational base does not exist to the extent it does in other communities. In my own constituency, for example, I work very closely with local seniors and with the Rotary Club in terms of the proposals going back the last several years for a seniors drop-in centre and for a seniors facility.

I would ind icate to the Minister that there will be further applications from local seniors now that the seniors residence is scheduled to open. The seniors drop-in facility, in fact, is scheduled to open in December. I do not think that is really the point. I think the point of the Mem ber for Flin Flon was tha t th ere are communi ties where there is not the organizational base. I know in the case of Thompson, for example, the role of the Rotary Club and the work of the seniors thems elves was absolutely critical.

I remember when we first raised the whole question of the need for a seniors facility, a drop-in facility and a housing facility in Thompson seve ral years ago, quite frankly, there was skepticism from departmental officials. The programs existed, they were explained to people but there was skepticism. People said, well, Thompson is a relatively young communit y, there are not the number of seniors to justify a seniors facility and we proved them wrong. I can tell you how we proved them wrong.

In my constituency seniors went door to door to talk to people and provided a tremendous amount of information to the provincial Government at the time. The Rotary Club, provided the organizational resources. It was really the combination of the two that made the difference and I was very pleased when the Communi ty Piaces funding was made available in 1987 and also when the housing units were approved in 1988 for the facility. It was a true community effort. I do not want to get into the politics of it. I think it is a community effo rt.

I am only raising that to ind icate 2836 that I think the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie} had a point in terms of the situation in other communi ties because without the work of the seniors in Thompson and without the work of the Rotary Club we may still have been discussing rather than acting upon the need for a drop-in facility and a housing facility. Incidental ly, in case the Minister is not aware, the facility is full right now in terms of applications.

That I think is some thing also that speaks to the foresight of the people who four years ago, and for many years have been talking about the need for a seniors facility. I remember raising it during Estimates in terms of various different departments where the funding would be available. I would say that it is a good case example. I think the Minister will find that there will be applications coming in from Thompson following that. I think that is the di rect result of the fact the organizational base is there and I think even the fact of having the facility is going to bring people together.

I think you are going to find our seniors group in Thompson very active. I hope that in the next few years, when we also have that list of programs and grants being offered, to see the seniors from my constituency on that list and I can tell you that they will be. I also hope, as the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) did, that there will be further improvement in other communities. I would include Wabowden in that. I know Wabowden's situation very well.

There is a seniors facility, but as the Member for Flin Flon pointed out, it is fine to point to Government programs and point to the assistance of the departme nts of Government being available and that is the case, but if the organizational base is not available, then the process goes nowhere. It is a very similar deba te we have seen in Community Places where the Government on coming into office immedia tely moved and req uired 50 percent funding from remote communities for badly needed community projects. I raise that because in the case of Thompson that was not a difficulty.

In the case of the seniors facility, for example, because of the support of the community in the particular organization of the Rotary Club, the 50 percent funding was avai lable. In communi ties, such as Wabowden and other remote communiti es, that may be needing facilities, whether it be Community Places facilities or other programming initia tives, that organizational funding base is not available.

That I think was the very important point that the Member for Flin Flon raised and it is not a question of this exchange back and forth about who was doing what as an MLA, providing information or whether the assistance of Government is available, I think we have seen and the experience we have learned. I have certainly seen this as a Member of the Legislature, is that sometimes you can make a serious mistake in treating everybody equally when circumstances are not equal.

If you assume in your programs that there is an organizational and a resource base in a commun ity, and that organizational and a resource base is not available, that can leave the community ess entially shut out in the cold. It is not that they do not need the service, it is because they do not have the resources, and they do not have the organizational base to vocalize in that sense.

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 I know, I am sure the Minister would have been the first one a number of years ago, the then Minister when I raised the need for seniors housing to say, well, where is the application, where is the interest from seniors, where is the support from the service club? That question was raised by the department, and it was not until that was available that the call in the communit y, the desire in the communit y, was translated from a generally accepted need into action. *

(1550) I would like to ask the Minister, just so we can perhaps move on to a couple of other areas in this particular section, if those communities are not forthcoming, some of the more isolated commun ities, whether he would I think in more of the spirit of what the Member for Flin Flon was talking about and what I think that he even was saying to a certain extent, be willing to look at the criteria that exists for such programs, to look at the possibility of perhaps deve loping a separate criteria for isolated northern communi ties, so that perhaps in the future we will have a list of somewhat more than the current 50 odd organizations that will include some from northern commun ities.

I would like to ask perhaps to move on in other areas. That is my final question in this area. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I will give anything my hon ourab le friend suggests due and necessary consideration. I want to tell him that I certainly am pleased that he, as the MLA for Thompson, able to at least attempt to clarify what the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) was attem pting to say about northern commun ities. I appreciate his attempt at clarification of the Member for Flin Flon's attempt at clarification. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Thompson. Mr. Ashton: I did ask a question. Mr.

Orchard: What was the question again? I am sorry. Mr. Ashton: This is almost a replay of Question Period the other we ek. I was jus t ask ing whether the department would- apart from that exchange, I tried not to get into that as much as possible, I believe that is between the Member for Flin Flon and the Minister of Health and that was in terms of the remote northern communi ties-to perhaps review the criteria. With the Minister for Cultural Affairs (Mrs.

Mitchelson) here, I would point to what happened in the case of the decision to move to 100 percent funding in remote northern communities on Communi ty Places. That was not always the policy, by the way. It was decided to move to that policy under the previous Government because it became apparent that having the same criteria in each area of the province led to a lesser num ber of applic ations in com parison to need in northern communities. In that same spirit, I am asking if the Minister would be willing to look at the criteria as it relates to northern commun ities.

Perhaps he could consult with the NACC, with the MMF, the various tribal councils, the MKO, the various northern organizations to determine whether the criteria actually are going to meet the needs in those communi ties. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, bear in mind that this is not a funded program.

This Support Services for seniors provides some assistance in terms of retai ning a volunteer co-ordinator and instead of having an unpaid vol unteer co-ord ina tor who has to experience as ind icated to us, burns out under the workload and opts out of that kind of community service, that the Support Services for seniors provide some assistance toward the salary component of a volunteer co-ordinator primarily.

It is up to the community thereafter to devel op through primarily volunteer efforts within the commun ity, in other words not for pay, a range of services that they will provide to seniors in their communities. There is no 50 percent guideline for funding as my honourable friend referred to.- (interjection)- Well, we are not talking about Commun ity Places, we are talking I think about Su pport Services for seniors. The analogy of Commun ity Places is simply not an appropriate one because ther e is no percentage of funding in Support Services for seniors. Let me give you an example.

The Franklin Manor Incorporated, Dominion City, is requesting a $6,400 grant this year. On the higher end of the range is an organization like the Portage Housing Authority which will receive this year $36,200.00. Those are to fund volunteer co ordi nators in the community based on several criteria, i.e., the size of the community to be served , the num ber of projects to be unde rtaken, the size of the absolute num bers or actual num bers of volunteers to be co ordina ted, so that each community varies significantly in the amount of resource that can be given to, or provided to, as an individual commun ity.

There are no set guidelines. Let me give you another example. Two Winnipeg projects, for instance, the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority Incorporated in terms of their tenant reso urce program is accessing this year $78,400.00. As well, Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority Incorporated, for their meals program, is accessing this year $114,000.00.

My honourable friend can appreciate we would not, in all like lihood, provide that level of support to Wabowden, because I think my honourable friend would recognize that the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority Incorporated, in terms of the num ber of people they serve with their meals program, would be probably a multiple of the entire population of Wabowden. It would hardly be an expectation tha t we would provide $114,000 to Wabowden.

It is very much a negotiated situation with each commu ni ty and ther e is an opportunity for every communit y, from large to small, to participate in this program, and we welcome that participation. Ms. Gray: The Mini ster said that he had some information for me, and he was waiting for his ADM to arrive. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, now I forget who asked the question but it was in terms of the Extended 2837

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 Treatment Bed Review, which was one question yesterday. They wanted to know if anybody from the seniors groups were on it. We have Ron Birt as the chair, Eleanor Giffin from Portage la Prairie is a member. Dr. Paul Henteleff who is a geriatrician is on it; Mr. Colin Lount; Mrs . Joyce MacFarlane; Miss Evelyn Shapiro, who is the previous home care director . That is not right. She is with the University of Manitoba, she is not a home care director. We have a little glitch in the information here that is pencilled in -(interjection) she used to be, oh. Previously, yes.

That is what it said here, so there was not a glitch in the information then , and Mrs. Edith Swanhill, who is a previous home care co-ordinator , as well. Now I have other answers or do you want to ask questions on this answer? A question was posed : who represents continuing care of the Winnipeg Region Implementation Review Committee, the Toews group? It is Cathy Lussier, Regional Continuing Care Co-ordinator, Winnipeg South Region, phone no. 945-5558. I do not have the home address. The other question was how would a job be changed by the regional director? I will provide this information.

Regional directors, as management, have a responsibility to ensure that the organization is current and that it is in keeping with the goals and objectives of the department. This means that from time to time departmental activities, program and priorities, will change and job responsibilities will be adjusted to reflect organizational needs . Changes may be made because an individual's job has changed through automat ion, et cetera or as a result of organizational change . Regional directors are responsible for ensuring that the operation is relevant.

They are authorized to adjust activities of staff as they relate to job responsibilities. II responsibilities are changed significantly, the new position desc ript ion is submitted for auditing to human resource management. The classification review can be initiated by the employee or by management. Through the audit and review process, the job description is evaluated to identify specific changes and compared with similar positions within the department to ensure interna l consistency .

Human resource management will prepare a review report including recommendations and submit this to the Civil Service Commission for their review and decision. Ms. Gray: The Minister then is indicating that if a regional director wants to basically take away functions from a particular person, some job functions, and give it to another person that ultimately affects their classification. There is really nothing stopping that regional director from doing that arbitrarily . Mr. Orchard: I do not know whether my honourable friend's tenor of her question is accurate.

My honourable friend is seeming to connote a malicious intent in such a move by a regional director, and I do not think that is what she intended. Ms. Gray: What the tenor of my question was, given how you have explained the process , in fact to me there is not an accountability procedure built in whereby you 2838 would, as the Minister has suggested, not have regional directors who may decide to use that particular authority , which sounds exten sive to me, and in fact move their friends or people who they favour, have them take on more job responsibilities.

What I am asking is: what is built in to ensure that does not happen , should that possibly happen? Mr. Orchard: Well, I think that was implicit in the answer. If responsibilities are changed significantly, the new position description is submitted for auditing to the human resource management of the Department of Health. If the classification review can be initiated by the employee or by management, in that, Human Resources will prepare a review report including recommendations and submit this to the Civil Service Commission for their review and decision. So there are checks and balances all throughout.

If a staff believes, as my honourable friend hypothesizes, that they are being unduly and dastardly treated by some cruel and heartless regional director, they have a check and balance process in the procedure to human resources of the department and thereafter to the Civil Service Commissioner . Ms. Gray: Well, the Human Resources and then the Civil Service will classify the position, and they do not necessarily look at how the decisions were made, in terms of who took on what job responsibilities and why, correct? Mr. Orchard: I am sorry, I missed the first part of that question. Ms.

Gray: The Minister is saying that the Human Resources Department and the Civil Service Commission will look at the classification of that particular position, but they do not necessarily have the responsibility or do not necessarily look at the reasons why, or the decisions surrounding why, certain job functions were given to some individuals and taken away from others, correct? *

(1600) Mr. Orchard: If there are new duties assigned and taken away from one employee, given to another, that is part of the questions asked by Human Resources. Why from this to this? Very much so, that is part of the discussion . Ms. Gray: Just to clarify for the Minister; if that in fact was not asked or addressed, would the Minister then say in fact something was very wrong in Human Resources or the Civil Service Commission? Mr. Orchard: I sense from that question that my honourable friend is saying that four years ago that might have happened, and I cannot answer that. Mr.

Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Thompson. Mr. Orchard: I have a couple more questions that were asked the other day, if I could beg the indulgence of my honourable friend from Thompson (Mr. Ashton) .

Tuesday, November 14, 1989 I was asked to provide a position description for the executive di rector of operations and the assistant to the executive di rector. How about if I just give my honourable friend this, because I would not want to take up committ ee time by reading seven pages of intensive read ing. My honourable friends might say I was trying to waffle Estimates and I would not want that accusation to be level led. How many speech pathologists in Winnipeg versus rural?

Okay, this is total, the best estimate school division outside funded agencies, et cetera, et cetera, including such organizations as St Amant Centre, which of course is not funded by this department. We have, for all intents and purposes, 91 effective full-time positions in speech pathology in the City of Winnipeg and we have, inclusive of the school divisions and the Department of Health and Commu nity Services, a total of 46 in rural Manitoba. Primarily, I simply caution my honourable friends, in the school divisions, the vast majority being in the school divisions.

The position descriptions for the medical officers of health, their duties and qualifications, this can vary, region by region. I am going to have to have this summ arized for my honourable friends. Or I will tell you what we will do, we will go one better, we will not sum marize it, we will give it to you. This is open Government epitomiz ed . Well, some of you are pretty open, like you leaving work past ten o'clock. Here is a medical officer of health for Westman region to give you an idea of how they fit into the system. Now are there any other questions? Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr.

Chairperson, can the Minister of Health tell us, he just read the names from the Health Advisory Network, if there is any senior from a consumer group on the Health Advisory Network out of those names? Mr. Orchard: On the Health Advisory Network, yes. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairper son, can he tell me if there is a person on the Extended Treatment Bed Review? Mr. Orchard: You know I am at a loss to tell you whether there are any seniors ther e because I do not know the age of these people. I know that one individual is a retired individual. Mr.

Ashton: I have asked or given some ind ication yesterd ay, I just wanted to ask some questions on the medical officer of health. I would like to ask the Minister how many vacancies there are currently in terms of the regional medical officers of health? Mr. Orchard: As of November 1989, there are three positions vacant. One is in active recruitment; one position is held for Winnipeg region to be filled with the new regional director recruited, that is the position we are going to use; and one is in joint recru itment with the Univ ersity of Ma ni toba to attract an epide

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-70
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 70.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	76aab3aae98d4e2ae21d90030a53ecd9846c89fa

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