V91UIT)e 1 . PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEW.FOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, JUNE 1, 1976 Number 75 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

June 1, 1976, Tape 3048, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, just under two weeks ago on Thursday, May 20th, I informed the members of this House that I had written to Premier Bourassa and advised him that unless this Province received a favourable response by May 31st, 1976, to its request for an additional 800 megawatts of power from Churchill Falls, we would have no alternative but to terminate all work on the transmission lines and tunnel and to announce institution of the necessary steps to seek clarification of our legal rights. Mr.

Speaker, it is my unpleasant duty today to advise members of this House and the people of Newfoundland that I have not received the necessary assurances from Premier Bourassa and that therefore we have no option but to take those actions which I stated would be necessary in my letter of May 18th. Mr. Speaker, I deeply regret that the government of the Province of Quebec has placed us in this position.

We are now faced with the task of pursuing our legitimate rights and the people of this Province will meanwhile be denied the benefits of access to the low cost Churchill Falls power and the employment opportunities which would have resulted from the construction of the transmission lines and tunnel. We will also be denied the opportunities for the industry which this Province so badly needs and which this power would allow us to develop.

With the future development of this Province in danger of being stifled, because we do not have access to adequate quantities of reasonably priced power, and with the Province desperately in need of the stimulation which would result from the construction of the lines and the tunnel, it is indeed unfortunate that this position should have been reached. It is not the sort of outcome one would expect between friends and neighbours. It is certainly not 9274

June 1, 197~, Tape 3048, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : in the spirit of Confederation as the mutual development of our hydro resources in an energy-short country is surely in the interest of the nation as a whole. Obviously, Ouebec is thinking of itself alone. Mr. Speaker, I read into the records of this House on May 22nd, the contents of my letter to Premier Bourassa of May 18th.

In view of the importance of this matter, I propose also to read into the records the contents of a short telex I received from Premier Bourassa on May 25th, and the contents of a letter which I sent to Premier Bourassa on May 26th, fn response to his telex. I should add that apart from Premier llourassa' s short telex of May 26th, and a brief telephone conversation between Mr. C.W.Doody (Acting Minister of Mines and Energy) wHh Mr. Cloutier, Quebec's Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, there has been no further official communication from the Government of nuebec.

As Premier of Newfoundland I am terribly disappointed in the discourtesy shown to Newfoundland by Ouebec in the nast week in not contacting me directly on a matter of such great significance to both our Provinces. ~!r. Speaker, a translation of the French text of Premi .er Jlourassa' s telex of May 25th to me reads as follows: "I have taken notice of your letter of ~ay 18th reearding the provision of energy from Churchill Falls.

"I should tell you that from the legal point of view, the claim that you are submitting does not appear to us to be well-founded, according to the legal advice we have received on this matter. Moreover, I notice from reading your letter that you envisage the possibility that an agreement may be found between your Government and mine in order to solve this dispute by means other than recourse to the courts.

"I wish to inform you that the Government of Ouehec is ready to consider any reasonable suggestion that you '~ish to make, with the understand.ing that such a suggestion will serve the best interests of our two respective Provinces", 9275

June 1, 197~, Tape 3048, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: My reply to Premier Bourassa of May 20th reads as follows: "I wish to acknowledge receipt of the contents of your letter of recent date which I understand were telephoned to my office by Mr. Benoit Morin, Executive Assistant to yourself. I presume that the letter is currently in the mail to come to me, as it has not yet been received by my office.

"It is deeply regrettable that you did not address yourself to the main point of my letter of May 18th, 1976, in which I indicated that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador needed your decision by Monday, May 31st, 1976, on our request for an additional 800 megawatts of power by 1982 at the same price as paid by Quebec Hydro. "Your reply did not direct itself to what we consider to be a reasonable request. "As I mentioned in my previous letter, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador considers a favourable decision on the request for an additional 800 megawatts to be essential to further discussions.

In our opinion, the request is most reasonable. In addition, we hold fast in our resolve that our advice on the lease agreement is legally sound and we will stand on the strength of its arguments in presenting our case to the courts. "It is still my hope that both Provinces can agree on the joint development of the rivers which are common to both Labrador and Quebec, and that we can agree on a co-operative arrangement for the general development of hydro resources in Labrador. However, I am sure you can appreciate the need for a commitment from you on the 800 megawatts before further negotiations can take place.

"I look forward to a positive response from you and an agreement as to when it would be mutually convenient for us to meet on the issues which are so important to both the Province of Quebec and the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador." 9276

June 1, 1976, Tape 3048, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, lest it be wondered why my reply to Premier Bourassa's telex was so uncompromising, let me say that while we have not and will not close the door on a negotiated settlement of this matter, we are unwilling to be deviated from our reasonable and legitimate request for access to an additional 800 megawatts of power from Churchill Falls.

Further discussions ~~ith the Province of Ouebec, when they have already made totally unreasonable and unrealistic demands, will only be possible after they have acceded to the request contained in my letter of May 18th and repeated again in my letter of May 26th. Mr.

Speaker, the immediate consequence of the lack of a favourable response from the Province of Quebec is that we will have to terminate all work on the construction of the transmission lines and tunnel, At a time when the Province desperately needs the employment which would have resulted from the construction work, it is very reg~ettable that this decision has to be taken. However, my Government would be acting irresponsibly if it proceeded with the construction of the lines and tunnel in the absence of any assurances regarding the availability of power from Churchill Falls.

The management of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has therefore been instructed to terminate all work as quickly as possible, in an orderly manner, consistent with minimizing costs and maximizing the Province's investment in the work which has already been undertaken. The estimated total cost of work on the Gull Island project to May 31st, 1976 is $63 million. Costs to December 31st, 1976, including owners costs, interest, cancellation charges and construction costs are expected to total a further $14 million, for a total incurred expenditure of $77 million by December 31st, 1976. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to reassure the Honourable Hembers of this House that all but a very small fraction of the funds which will have been spent on the Gull Island project can be regarded as a sound investment. The vast bulk of the funds has been invested in engineering, design and other work which will 9277

June 1, 1976, Tape 3048, Page 5 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: retain its value and be of benefit when the decision to proceed with the Gull Island project is eventually taken. Some small part of the expenditure will, however, be lost as it represents items such as cancellation costs and money spent on items which are subject to deterioration, for example, roads. Mr.

Speaker, I feel I must stress that today's announcement in no way indicates a lessening in my Government's determination to build the transmission lines and tunnel connecting the Island portion of this Province to the hydro resources in Labrador and to the Eastern Canadian grid. Nor, Mr. Speaker, will I or Members of my Government rest until a formula is found for harnessing the hydro-electric potential of the Churchill River available at the Gull Island site and other locations in Labrador. The development of these hydro resources is of national importance.

The Federal Government and all other Provinces vmuld agree with this - all, that is, except Quebec. Mr. Speaker, just for the information of the House as well I will give a few of the facts that surround what is happening to Churchill Falls power today as it regards Ouehec. First of all, 33 per cent of all Quebec's total energy resources come from the Churchill Falls resource in Labrador. Secondly, that power is presently being paid for at 3.37 mils. The'power development at Bay James is today costing between 25 and 30 mils at the bus bar. Mr.

Speaker, just for information purposes, if we were getting 25 mils, the cost that developing power is costing in Quebec today, the revenue to Churchill Falls would be ~787 million more than is presently the case. F.~ually, Mr. Speaker, that amount would be more than the present revenue from all tax revenues of this Province. Double the amount, is what it would be. It would mean that this would be a have Province and not a have not Province. 9278

.TunC! 1 , 1 Q7 6, Tape 31')4 'I, Page! " - anh _!'RmiER v.omms: ~r. Speaker, we are n ~: asking for the lncrease, we are iust a~king for power to come back, a minimal amount of power, so that this Province can survive. l~st vear flttPhec Rydro,af ter allow-ins: for <ill the subsidization to attract industry into its ~rovince, still showerl a profi t of $42~ million . And that, Mr. Speaker, I say, was based on the Upper Churchill power at such a low rate . And these are the same people , Mr. Speaker, who will not allow us now to get this power back for our survival in thi s Province . 92 79

June 1, 1976, Tape 3049, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, an immediate consequence of the decision to stop work on the transmission lines and tunnel is the need to decide on some alternative means of providing the power required to meet the energy needs of this Province. The management of Newfoundland and Labrador hydro have studied the available options and have concluded that if Labrador power is going to be delayed beyond 1982, the preferred method of meeting the interim requirements is with a further 150 megawatt oil-fired generating unit at Holyrood. In other words, Mr.

Speaker, we are being forced into very expensive oil burning facilities rather than having the use of our own less expensive resources. This is a national disgrace which very nearly tempted this Province to take drastic action rather than go through the necessary legal steps. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, a time may come, and I hope it does not, when emotion overrides reason but this is a temptation which we will attempt to resist and I hope all elected members would. But, Mr. Speaker, the temptation is great when dealing with people whom we consider to be unreasonable. The fact is, Mr.

Sneaker, the cost of producing energy from oil-fired thermal resources in 1982, and the best estimate we have will cost 36 mils per megawatt. The other thing, Mr. Speaker, that I find almost unbelievable is that at a time when we have requested 800 megawatts from Quebec for use in this Province, Quebec has also at the same moment filed with the National Energy Board to export 800 megawatts to the United States. This, Sir, in my opinion, is not in the spirit of Confederation. ~R. ROBERTS: PRF.MIF.R MOORES: MR. ROBERTS: PREMIER MOnRF.S: •fuat price will they get?

I am not sure, but it is - More than three and-a-half mils. It is more than three but it is less than ten. 9280

,Tune l , l 'l7(.., TaT'e 3fl40, Page 7. -- anb '111. ROBERTS: PRF.MTF.P. MQ()RES: So they a~e ~ivinp, away our nower. They are giving away our pcn~er to the II . S. at the same time as we cannot get it back . ~IR. 51-'.AJ.UIOOD: They are not giving it away. PRrniER ~!OORES: They are not giving it a-..:ay but - :ow. S"'ALL'.~OOO: They are sellin~ it at a high price. PRF.'MT.F.R ~OO'RF.S: Well, they are sellinr, it under ten mils, but the fact is they are making a big profit on our power at a time ~rhcn we cannot r-et it back . ·~r.

S?eaker, my Government has no rlouht that chis Province has the right to request access to power f ~nm C.hurchill ralls and it very much regrets the failure of the Cov~rnment of nuebec to recopnize this rip.ht . ~fuile recent events shn\tld not h:we given me any cause for optimism, it is stHJ my hope lhat this matter can he resolved in an equitable and fair manner without the necessity of len~thv litis.:at.ion .

Meanwhile, the Province now has no option but to take the necessary legal steps, and we will, on tne advice of our Attorney General, commence today with the necessary demands upon appro:>r.iate parties. 11tese demAnds are a orereauisite to court action and Covernm.ent will he proccedi~ with them as auickly as possible . t seck the support: of this RonO\Irnb tc tlous~ and th!' ~uoport of aJl of the peonle of this Province, and for thnt matter the neople of Canada, to support u~ in this oarticu l ar action . AI.T. liON. liF.'fflF.~<;: MP. . $}\ALLWOOD: r.veryhody! Rear, hear!

All ~ewfoundland is going to do it! 9281

June 1, 1976, Tape 3049, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPFAKER: MR. ROBERTS : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, let me say first of all, Sir, that the action, the quite spontaneous action of my colleagues and of all on this side, and of all who sit on the other side of the House I think says more than any words that will be uttered by any member of this House. That action, Sir, shows where w~ stand and what we feel and what we believe in this matter. Mr.

Speaker, the Premier's announcement, or statement, comes as no surprise to us, just as Quebec's reaction or reply to the letter which the Premier sent the Premier of Quebec ten or eleven days ago comes as no surprise. And I do not say that with any happiness or with any joy, I say that with a very great deal of regret because I do not think anybody can take joy or happiness from what has happened in this matter. It is very much a matter of regret, Sir, that a sister province of ours, that happens to be our neighbouring province, has refused to negotiate in a reasonable and straightforward and open-minded manner.

I must say that I find it particularly galling,that refusal particularly galling, in the light of the information that Quebec is exporting this power. It is not even a matter of their being short or having to do without in their own province. They have surplus power that they can export and yet they will not negotiate with us. Mr. Speaker, I can only say that the a·ction of the Government of Quebec is not only disappointing in the extreme, it is going to be disappointing to every citizen of this Province, but equally disappointing to every citizen of Canada.

I think it is short-sighted of the Government of Quebec. I am sure they do not speak for the people of their ~rovince. The Government of Quebec have time and time again looked to all the people of Canada for support for what they believed to be their just and proper and legitimate expectations and asperations within 9282

June 1, 1976, Tape 3049, l'a!1;e 4 -- apb HR. ROBERTS: Confederation. And the Government of this Province, Sir, whether it be the administration that now holds office or their predecessors in office, have time and time again supported the Government of Quebec both in advancin,ll; and enhancing those legitimate and proper asperations. ~ow, Sir, when the shoe is on the other foot the Government of Quebec have revealed themselves to he selfish, short-sighted, stubborn, anc1 T v1ouJd almost go so far as to say, apparently determined to hurt this Province.

There can be no legitimate explanation, as I can see or that anybody has been able to suggest to me, for the refusal of the Government of Quebec to respond in a positive manner to the proposition, the proposals which the Premier put to them in th~ letter which he sent to Mr. Bourassa two weeks past. Mr. Speaker, the government must now pursue action. The Premier has told us that the Minister of Justice will today begin the necessary proceedings.

I assume eventually this will lead to an action against the Churchill Falls Corporation because as I understand it it is them we must sue because it is to them that we must look for Ratisfnctlon because we arO? relying, of course, on the statute l"'ssed by this House. The principal lease, I believe it is called, the principal agreement.

But whatever the form it must take, Sir, I assure the Premier and the House that all members of this House will support the government in acting vigorously, strongly in pursuing this matter to its ultimate conclnsi.on, r5.ght to the ultimate conclusion, and pursuing it actively and strongly and relentlessly. We have no option. We are now fighting our last option and we are fighting it with every resource we can command. Mr.

Speaker, I know the government will have the support of every citizen of this Province, and I can assure the Premier that - and I think I speak for a large body of people - politics stand aside in this matter. It is not a 9283

June 1, 1976, Tape 3049, Page 5 - apb ~. ROBER'l'S: matter that should or must become partisan. It should be all party supp~rt, all parties in this House and outside, because this, Mr. Speaker, is something that goes well beyond, way beyond any bounds of any partisan 111atter. We may differ over what has gone on in the past with respect to power poliC:y. Indeed we do differ. Mr. Speaker, 928~

.Tune 1, 197fi Tape 3050 JB-1 "r>. ronr.rTs: we do not qiffer on thi~ matter. He c1o not cH.ffer, first of all, on c'enotmdnr l"uehec for their actions and seconrlly, in sRyin~ to the govermrent, ' 'l' nl J steam aheacl. l'amn the torperlos and push thi~ thinr; through J-, C'cnu~e we shall fip:ht 11nd we must w1n. '' ",-. :-pe<1.ker, 1 would J ike to ask the unl'lnh10ns con:>ent of the l1<1use to Move " 1110Unn which I believe represents the. ~ense of the PousC', and tf s0meJ-,orlv on the government sine '•mnld like to rn<1vc it T w0ul d he delighted to have them do :it.

J cl:l rl n0t l1ave a chnnce to c0nsuJ t ~rj th j;entle""en opposite but let me reac1 the Motion And ask tf ,.·e may l1ave consent and _,e, for our part, would put it th1:our;l: witlJC1Ut c'ehate. I cannot speak for the other parties but J '"n spe;,k for my mm, Sir.

BE IT FESOLV:En that this Jlouse condemntc the refus11l of the Government of nuebec to cause Hyrlro-Qnebec to <1.l lo,,• Ne~>l foundland and Labrac1or llyclro to rece~ptnre from the output of the Tlppe1: Chnrchi Jl a nuantity of power suffi<eient to jm•tify the const-.-uction of a transl'lission line ."cr0ss l.nhrarlor ;md the Strrdts of Relle Tslanc1 to the !Rlnnd of Ne't<·fonncllnnd pay:lnp. therefor the Sal'1e price pai c:l for that pm<er hy l'vdrn-f1nebec to rhurch1ll Fill ls-T.ahrador C':0rporation, and 'lF JT FURTTIEP T'F.Sf1TYET> that the government take ;,1 J actions necessP.ry ;,nc1 11.ppropriate tr> ensure that the hest interests of this Province ~re protectecl and enhanced in this r1atter.

T would asl-c consent, Sir, to tr'OVe this motion. T believe .lt reprf"sent" the feeling of every single mewber of this House. I hel ieve it reprNJents the feeling of every sing] e person, every single eit !:>:en nf thj~ Province. ~·'r. Speaker, the Premier's announcement, as T saicl,comes 11~ "'-matter of nn surpri.se but a rnP.tter of very deep rep.ret. 1 rel:fe"e the !!overnment are cloi.ng the 0nly thi.nr they can c1o e~nd J believe, Si.r, they must have our snpp0rt. I c.an sPy they cln have ours. Thank yo11 w~ry mud:, Sir. He<Jr, he11r! }11'..

ROBERTS: ~'ay 1 have a "'ord? 1. asked leave to move th:ls mot1on 9285

Tape 3050 IB-2 HP, ROBERTS: but I am quitP. prepared,:f.f the Premier would prefer to have it :l.n his name, you know, infinitely prefer to have it in his name perhaps I could be allowed to second it,and indeed any improvements in wording I would be delighted to have that happen. I think, Sir, :It iR time, S:lr, this House recorded its view and I suggest we do it with a standing vote if that is in order. I believe every s:J.ngle member. feels as strongly as does the Prem:ler and as do I. Thank you, Sir. SOHE Jl(1N. ~IF.l''llEPS: Hear, hear! tm. SPEAY-.En: The han. member for Tw:l llingate. ~fTl. SW,LLHOOn: ''r.

Speaker, with regard to the suggestion made by the Leader of the Oppos:ltion, I say that,of course,"~<re welcome the suggeRt1.on esped11lly as :It :Implements a proposal that I made in the House here myself for this party when the matter first came up. The House may recall that 1 suggested that a resolution should be adopted by a standin~ vote and that we might show our earnestness hy singing The Ode To Ne~·7foundland. That appeared at the time to receive some degree of welcome but because of some rather acrimonious debate that took place later that same day the House Leader declined to have it proposed.

Now it is proposed, I for one welcome :1 t and I for one ••ill vote for it. I do not believe that ever before in Newfoundland's history d:J d any Premier have so un:l.ve.rsa] and so unanimous support from the people of Newfoundland and the people of this Province as the Premier h.qs today. I do not believe that there is a Newfoundlander Uv:lng in Newfoundland or Labrador who is not w:l.th the Prem:ler and with the administration :In this matter. This is not a party matter. It is not a p;nvernment matter. It is not an administration matter. It is not an Opposit:l.on matter.

ThiR is a matter that touches the very life nf 11ll tlle people of our Province. So all our people are back. of. the government and if there was never a Premier in our history who had universal and unanimous support before, then there is one toda.y and he can feel absolutely assured that he can go to almost any length, 9286

.r nne l , 1 Q 7 f' TRpe 3050 IB-3 FR. S~IALLH!10n: legaJ leneth, J awful l enp.:th, wHhout forfei tinp.: the support of the people, the entj re populat:!.on of Newfoundland. I am rather pleased that T introduced legislat:fon into this !louse ln the year 1953 p,ivjng to Br:lnco, British 11ewfound]ann r.orporation, the rights that they have.

They have no rights other than those conferred up em them in ~ hj 11 that T brought he fore this House and t·his House adopted and passec1 it into law after it rece:lver1 the royal assent, 1, that,'·!hich is still the ]a,_._. of this Province, at th -f s moment it is the lav of Ne,.,foundland, and in clause 9 of it, sub-~;ect:ion 5, it still says to this moment, tbis :Is now at this 1'\C'rnent the l.;n,· of this Jand, "In the event of the exercise of the water po••er rights llereby grantec1 the corporation, Brinco, shall not export any electric11l po•-'er froJTl the Province without the prev:fous consent of the p:overnment Hhich consent shall not be unreasonably vithhelc\ havi"p.: regard to the most economical and effic:!ent means of ntH izinp such electrical power and to the requirements or: consumers or potential consumers within Newfoundland and Lahrador." T ""' proml toil11y that T piJotecl tltat clm1se through this I louse and that this Uouse adopted it.

I am also proud of the fact that in 1962 •~1en this House conferred upon Churchill Falls (Labraclor) r0rpor.ntjon such rir,hts as they have to this moment - and they cou]d l1nve only the rights that this act conferred upon them in 196~ - and it is upon thjs cll!use that the Prer.der through the Attorney Genere~1 will enter acUon :In the court. That clause says that the first pr1ority of the power c1eve] oped on the ''pper Churchill shall be for tl1e people of Newfound] am'.

Now if the corporatlon went aheac1 and made a contract - they wen• a private corpore~ti.on, they were not the government, they ••ere not a department of the r,overnment, that '""re not a division of the p:overmnent, they were jt1st a private company known as Brit:!.sh Nm.•founcllancl r.nrporation nnd kn01·!n as Churchill Falls (Labr.ano-r-) Corporation - if that privnte company choos~ to make a private contract •1ith people in f;uebec and in so cloin8 ignored the law of this land, I "-'OU] d venture to say that t.hP.y are in an unfortunate position today. 9287

June 1, 1976 Tape 3050 IB-4 ~'l'. S¥ALLWI10D: and that the court shoul~ so find. I am proud that I aw the author of that clause as well. In short, }'r. Speaker, the government in going into court are l imHed to the laws that I introduced into this chamber and that this chamber passed into law and that is the law today. I am very proud of that fact.

Never, I think, never were the people of this Province so tmited before, even in vlorld War !.!_, even in World T<Tar .!_, even in the infamous IHA dispute, in no matter were the people of Ne,~foundland so united as they are today and so united in support of their government. It is the government of the whole population and perhaps that was never the case before. The Premier can feel quite proud of that and I am sure that the last thing in the world that- would occur to him 1s making any partisan use of that fact.

It would be a foul insult to the love and loyalty and patriotism of the Newfoundland people ,.mo are as one person, there hearts beating as one heart in this. T envy thP Prel'!fer the fantastic Newfoundland support that he is ~etting now in this. And may I say to him that that support and that affection and that loyalty are not to be found only within the borders of this Province. They are to be found across Canada, from coast to coast. All C•nada will approve what the government are doing. sm'E HON. ~IF~f!lETIS: Rear, hear! 9288

June 1, 1976 T~pe no. 3051 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, in the past two or three minutes we have had an opportunity to look at the resolution proposed by the Leader of the Opposition, and I should imagine supported by the han. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). I would like to add for the sake of complete clarity one small paragraph to it. And if I may I will read the whole thing so that the members of the House can see how it reads:

BE IT RESOLVED that this House condemns the refusal of the Government of Quebec to cause Hydro-Quebec to allow Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to recapture from the output of the Upper Churchill a quanity of power sufficent to justify the construction of a transmission line across Labrador and the Strait- of Belle Isle to the Island of Newfoundland, paying therefor the same price paid for that power by Hydro Quebec to Churchill Falls Labrador Coporation; AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the government take all actions necessary and appropriate to ensure that the best interests of this Province are protected and enhanced in this matter.

AND - this is the addition - that this House unanimously endorses and supports the stand of the government on the matter of the recapture of power from Churchill Falls to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. HR. SMALLWOOD: MR. WELLS: That is the heart of it. That is the heart of it. So the end would be, "And that this House unanimously endorses and supports the stand of the government on the matter of the recapture of power from Churchill Falls to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador." MR.

SMALLWOOD: I wonder if the Leader of the Opposition would be willing to limit it to that1 That is the heart of it all. MR. WELLS: Well, that was the one I drafted myself when this matter was brought up,that last bit. And I think that is the guts of it, if I may say so. 9289

June 1, 1976 MR. SMALLWOOD: it that way - MR. ROBERTS: Tape no. 3051 Page 2 - mw If the Leader of the Opposition would move Mr. Speaker, I would prefer the whole thing to stand because I think it is important as well that we condemn the stand of the Government of Quebec. I think that is important as well as affirming, and we for our part are quite willing and indeed anxious to affirm the support of the House for the government in this matter, and I think the second clause is good.

I think it is necessary, because it gives the government,in effect,our endorsation to take all steps that they may deem appropriate in the future. There may be things that we have not discussed or come to yet. I think all three clauses. MR. WELLS: Certainly that would be very agreeable to the government, and I may say that the government deeply appreciates the expression on the part of the House in this matter, and I would ask that this resolution stand in the Premier's name. I move it. MR. ROBERTS: Well, that is certainly fine by me. I would like to be allowed, if I might, to second it.

I think that may be appropriate in the cireumstances. And if that is so, if it is agreeable, we will put it through without a debate, Mr. Speaker. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. WELLS: MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: By standing vote? By standing vote. Yes, by standing vote. Does the House wish to proceed with the vote on this resolution now? All those in favour of the resolution please say, "aye." Contrary minded, "nay." The motion is carried . unanimously. Is it the wish of the House to divide? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes, divide. MR. SPEAKER: Then we will take a standing vote of each name. 929.0

June l, 1976 Tape no. 3051 Page 3 - mw DIVISION: The hon. the Premier, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, the hon. Minister of Tourism, the hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, the bon. Minister of Health, the hon. Minister of Social Servic es, the bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, the hon: Minister of Justice, the han. Mr. Wells, the hon. Minister of Finance, the hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development, the han. }tinister of Fisheries, the hon. Minister of Public Works and Services, th.e hon.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, the hon. Minister of Education, Mr. Young, Mr. Goudie, Mr. N. Windsor, Mr. Dinn, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Woodrow, Dr. Winsor, Mr. Marshall, the hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Hodder, Mrs. Mcisaac, Mr. Strachan, Mr. Rowe, Mr. Simmons, Mr. Winsor, Mr. Flight, Mr. Lush, Nr. Rideout, Mr. Nolan, Mr. McNeil, the hon. Mr. Smallwood, Mr. Dawe, Mr. Moores. 0 0 0 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, before we go on may I raise another matter - and I am only half facetiously suggesting ~our Honour might wire to the Speaker of the National Assembly of Quebec in a collect telegram - SOME HON.

MF.l1BERS : In English? MR. ROBERTS: I would say send it in English and in French, Sir, so there is no possibility of any misunderstanding. Mr. Speaker, I think the House might wi~h to take note of the fact in the usual way that one of the last of our seamen, Captain Clarence Williams, a man who would be well-known to the Attorney General, died earlier this day,I regret to say. He was qulte an elderly man. He was seventy-eight years of age, and I would like to move,or if the Minister of Justice wishes to move it , I would be quite happy to second it in the appropriate way.

The House, I am sure, is familiar with Captain William's career. He was awarded an honourary degree by Memorial last Summer, the convocation , in recognition of it. 9291

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3051 Page 4 - mw Mr. Roberts. He was the last,! would think it fair to say, and if not the last, certainly among the greatest of the deep-sea banking skippers in this country of ours. He had his first command at the age of twenty, Sir, a schooner called the, Lilliam M. Richards, an~ over the years he commanded many of the schooners which fished on the Grand Banks and which carried our fish to the foreign going markets in. what was called the foreign trade.

He was a Fortune Bay man, Sir, born in Pool's Cove in May of 1898 and came of a seafaring family and carried on that tradition and added on to it. He commanded among other ships one of the famous general ships, the General Bing,owned by the Harris family of the Burin Peninsula, the L. A. Dunton which is now fitted out,I am told, a~ a museum in a seaport in Connecticut, and most recently Captain Williams served on the staff of the College of Fisheries, Navigation, Marine Engineering and Electronics. He served there for four or five years.

Indeed, I believe he is one of the original instructors there, Before that, Sir, he served as a member of the Royal Commission on the Fisheries, the one which was set up a year or so after Confederation under the chairmanship of the late Sir Albert Walsh who was then the Chief Justice of Newfoundland. Captain \Ulliams retired from active public life in 1969 and,as I am told,he died earlier today.

But I think it is appropriate, Sir, that the House should note the pass_ing of a man who made such great contributions, not simply to the public life of this Province, although he did there, but also to the commercial life and to the cultural life of this Province, the deep-sea fishery, the Banks fishery that is very much a part of what we are in this Province today. I think we should recognize, Sir, the contributions of those such as Captain Williams who made a lasting contribution to it. I would ask, Sir, that we move the usual and appropriate message be sent forward to those who are left to mourn, Sir. 9292

June 1, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: Tape no. 3051 The hon. Minister of Justice. Page 5 - mw I had not heard until this very minute of the passing of Captain Clar~ce Williams and it comes to me as a very great shock indeed. All my years growing up in Grand Bank1 Captain IUiliams was then sailing out of that port. indeed his oldest son and I were classmates, and we spent many a fond hour playing in Captain Williams' backyard. As the bon.

Leader of the Opposition has said, "He is one of the great master mariners of this century." Indeed several of the W1111amses from Pool's Cove were outstanding master mariners , and I believe Captain Williams is not the last, but one of the last of the William .s family. The story of Captain Williams' command, I think it was, of the General Bing when as a yery young man in the foreign trade he was severely injured at sea and managed to endure excruciating pain for several weeks until he eventually arrived in the port of St. John's, something that has never been told in detail and it should.

The mention of Captain Williams' name brings back very fond memories to me. I can recall aro und about 1937 or thereabouts, Captain Williams,after he had finished a successful Bank fishing season as master of the L. A. Dunton,

June l, 1976 Tape 3052 IB-1 f-IR. HICKMAN : took command of the banking schooner, Freda M in November and for his owners set sail for the port of Leith in Scotland in late Kovember or early December with a cargo of salt fish as an experiment to see if the Scottish market would show any interest in that product. This was the time of the year when most Newfoundland sailing captains tied up their ships. But that was not the way Clar Williams worked. If there was a challenge he took it. Fourteen days later the Freda M dropped anchor in the port of Leith in Scotland.

I think it was fourteen days and they did not know over there in Scotland what they beheld or what they were beholding. They had never seen a banking schooner of that type before. Before the end of January he was back in Grand Bank again with a load of coal, I think, that he picked up in Wales. That is very typical of the type of man he was. His first banking vessel, as I recall,was the L.A. Dunton. I can remember when he brought her down from Gloucester in the mid 1930's. She was an American built veseel, low in the water, not a good sailer but it had some power.

She was the first schooner that ca.e down with any auxiliary power. He was highliner on more than one. occasion during the years that he mastered that fine schooner, L.A. D\lnton. Too the contribution that Captain W:l.lliams made to the Walsh Commission on the fishery is well-known, as is the contribution he made during his years as a member of the staff of the College of Fisheries. To his widow, ~rs.

Williams, his son, Gor~on, his son, Captain Gerald Williams, his daughter, Mary and his son, Carl I join with other hon. membews of this House in extending my sincere sympathy in the loss of a great Newfoundland fishing and foreign going captain. f-IR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Tw:Ulingate. _MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Spes.ker, I hear with deep regret of the death of Captain Clar Williams. I knew him very well. I had profound

June 1, 1976 Tape 3052 IB-2 'MR. S~ALLWOOn: respect for him. I choae him as one of the members of the royal commission?headed by Sir Albert Walsh,to investigate the fisheries. He representing, of course, the deep-sea side of the fisheries. He was an extremely valuable member of that royal commission. I had something to do too in chasing him as a member of the staff, the teaching staff of the fisheries College. He was an outstanding Newfoundlander. I am afraid that there will not be too many more like him. There may be soft! but there will not be many.

He was a great man, a great son of Newfoundland, a great fisherman and a great pub11c man. }m. SPEAKF.R: The hon. Minister of Finance. ~. DOOnY: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement that I think is appropriate to make at the present time. The Province of Newfoundland today successfully raised a $30 million bond issue on the Canadian market. The issue has a ten and three quarter per cent coupon and it is prjced at ninety-nine and a half to yield ten point eight one per cent. The issue matures on June 29, 1997 and it has a one and a half per cent annual sinking fund.

The market reaction, Sir, to the issue was very favourable and indications are that the issue will be quickly sold out and indeed it is trading at a small premium over the issue price. This is the first borrowing, Sir, by the Province in the fiscal year, 19~6- 1977 and it was co-managed by Burns-Fry Limited and A.E. Ames. I am particularly pleased to be able to make th1s announcement in the light of the current situation with regard to Hydro Quebec and the Province of quebec. So it appears that the Canadian financial community feels that the Province of Newfoundland has legitimate interests and a good case.

There are copies here for anybody who is interested. SOME HON. W':~'BF.RS: Rear, hear! NOTICES OF ~10TION : }IR, .SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to 9295

June 1, 1976 Tape 3052 MR. H. COLLINS~ introduce a b:lll, "An Act To Amend The Hospitals Act, 1971." (Bill No. 82) MR. ROBERTS: Is that the ombUilsman? r!R. H. COLLINS: No. IB-3 f.ffi • SPF..AKF.R: f.m • PF.CKFnPD : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Rousing. ~·r. Speaker, 1 give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," (Bill No. l'4) and a bill, "An Act To Amend The Assessment Act." (Bill No. R1). MR. SPEAKE'!! : The hon. ~nister of Provincial Affairs and F.nvironemnt. }!R .• MUFPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I will on tomorrow ask leave to present a bill, "An Act To Amend The ro-operative Societies Act. II (Bill No. 83). }IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HIC!OfAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introdpce the following bills, a bill, "An Act To Repeal And lleplace The Tlistrict Courts Act" (Bill No. 80); a bill, "An Act Respecting The Sheriff Of Newfoundland J.nd His Officials". (Bill No. 85) • ORAL QUESTIONS: MR . SPF.AKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. R<'BERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier, one which I am sure he has anticipated.

In the l~ght of his announcement at the start of the day's session, will the government make it possible for the Rouse in this session to debate the Lower Churchill and the TTpper rhurchill, well to debate the Churchill and the power policy of the administration by first of all, allocating necessary time 9296

June 1, 1976 Tape 3053 MR. -aoBERTS: and secondly, in assuring that the House has available to it the necessary informat1on. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRF.MIER MOORES: ¥r. Speaker, the other day we did debate this IB-1 issue and there were other items brought up in 1t. What I would like to do is meet with the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Twillingate (l"r. Smalbvood) and review what the legal position and strategy of the Province is to ensure that we do not overlap what could be,in fact,damaging to the court case or to divulge stuff that we should not be at this time.

But certainly if it is agreeable with the two gentlemen mentioned I would certainly like to sit down and talk to them about the validity of which way we go about it. MP • ROBERTS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I think the Premier's position is a reasonable one. While I am not sure ff there is a room in this building big enough to hold the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), the Premier and myself all at once, I am certainly available and I am sure the gentleman for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) is.

The queRtion though is, granting and accepting that noth:l .ng wHl be said to prejudice our case, will we be given the opportunity to debate it in the House? PREl"TEJ! MOO"PES: The situation 1•, Mr. Speaker, I would certainly assume''yes''is the ans..,•er. But I would like to review, as I said, the legal poR:Ition of what the strategy is going to be and talk it over with these gentlemen to see if we basically, mutua -lly agree on what should he done. ~. ROB~RTS : That is fair enough. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. __!IR. SI~NS: 't-lr. Speaker MR. SPEAKEP : A RUpplemen tary? MR.

S!}!}'()NS: Yes, I think it is certaJ.nly on the same subject, Mr. Speaker, the subject of the Premier's announcement. The Premier made reference during his statement to the application presently befo~e the National Energy Roard from Hydro Quebec to export 800 megawatts of 9297

June 1, 1976 Tape 3053 IB-2 !-1R. SIM}f()NS : power to the United States. Could the Premier indicate whether this government has either intervened to the National Energy Board concerning that application, either registered an intervention or does it intend to do so? _MR_~ SMALLWOOD: ~r. Speaker, to a point of order. tfR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. I wished to ask a supplementary question of the Premier on the question asked by the Leader of the Opposition. I do not know if Your Honour is going to rule if this late question by the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) is allowed and answered. Am I then out of order in asking a supplementary question to the previous one? MR. SPEAKER: No, the bon. gentleman would not be out of order in asking a question relating to the first question after. MR. ROBERTS: Has Your Honour disposed of the point of order or does Your Honour want further - 1-ffl. SPEAKER: I have disposed of it. The bon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, to answer the question. We have not as yet filed an intervention. But the likelihood is that we will. Ontario have,for obvious rea•ons.

The detail on it we just found out recently and we are presently finding out all the inforaation we can before we take the necessary steps. Jo1R. SIMMON~ A supplementary to my question, Mr. Speaker. Can the Premier indicate what the timing is on this application or at what point will it be heard? Is he in command of this information at the present t:l.me? PREMIER MOORES : No. MR. SIMJ'IONS: No. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Twillingate. ~. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question on the answer of the Premier to the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. The debate on 9298

Jun~ 1, 1976 Tape 3053 HR. SMALLW(l()Jl: Churchill Falls is I believe on the Order Paper, is it not? And I believe that - AN RON. MEl 'BEf! : No, it was on adjournment,you see. HR. Sf.!ALLW00n: - the debate has actually begun, has it not? MR. PECKR'RD: No, it was on the adjournment. IB-3 ~- Sl-'ALLWOOD : And that some hon. members have actually participated in that d~bate. Ami wrong in that? MF. PECKFORD: The debate on the adjournment. MP. ROBERTS: I can help the hon. gentleman on the point because the man Who moved the motion is not in the House.

The debate the other day on Churchill was on Standing Order 23, an adjournment mot1on and the debate ceased at eleven o'clock when the House adjourned that night. So to have a further opportunity to debate the matter either - I could tell you the way it can be done, Mr. Speaker. In my opinion it can be done either by the government putting a substantive motion down.,which is the way it should be done if it is to be done. It can also be done by an amendment to the Throne Speech. But the mot1on the other day was disposed of when His Honour left the Chair at eleven at nj~ht. MR. SIMMONS~ And under Standing Order 23.

MR. ROBERTS: Oh, and under Standing Order 23, if His Honour were to find that in order. JIIR. WELLS: I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition is correct, Mr. Speaker, and when the dehate concluded that evenin~ that concluded that debate. MF. ROBERTS: Debate then ceased. MR. WELLS: Yes. MR. SPEAKEP: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay De Verde. MR. ROWE: Jllr. Speaker, again in 9299

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3054 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rowe. reference to the Premier's announcement with regard to the 150 megawatt oil generating unit at Holyrood. The Premier indicated that this would be a very expensive undertaking. Could the Premier indicate to the House, Sir, approximately how much this is likely to cost? And whether or not Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro have looked at hydro resources within the Province itself, the Island part of the Province itself and made a comparison between the cost of hydro developed electricity and thermo developed electrici,y? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the study on the hydro,first of all to answer that question, the study on the hydro potential in the Province has been looked at, and it is being relooked at. The fact is that it is very expensive, n•t just in terma of coat of power, but it is also very expensive in the terms of the cost to the ecology, and at the present time there is no suggestion that any of this be developed. It is not the recommended course of action. The an·swer to the first part ~f the question is that for a 150 megawatt generating unit the cost is between approximately $70 million to $75 million. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue . MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Miniater of Municipal Affairs and Housing. It relates to a matter that was mentioned in last Fall's budget, I think it was last Fall's budget, several months ago at least. In view of the fact that many people throughout the Province are wondering when they can see implementation of the government's proposal to give a $500 grant, that, of course, goes along with a loan, to repair existing dwelling• - this is something separate from new homes and so on - can the minister tell us what is the status of that?

And what time we can expect something definite on it? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister pf Municipal Affairs and Housing, MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the bon. member is somewhat confused in what was indicated at that time. There is presently in effect a $600 grant for new homeowners, owners of existing new homes that are coastructed 9300

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3054 Page 2 - tW Mr. Peckford. that is into effect. That was put into effect when the fedeaal government decided to get out of the field altogether on their $500 grant. So we came in and took aver. The government went on to say that they were hoping to get involved in the rehabilitation of existing housing stock. Towards that end the Newfoundland and Labrador Housin~ Corporation have been negotiating with Central Mortage and Housing Corporation, and I have had meetings with the president of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, Mr.

William Theron and other vice presidents of that corporation in Ottawa, and we are pursing our negotiations with them for two particular programmes dealing with existing housing stock. However, there has been a number of complications in the negotiations because we are looking for more than they are willing to give. So negotiations are still ongoing, both locally and in Ottawa to try to successfully complete a programme of rehabilitation of existing housing stock. But up to this present mo•ent we have not got final agreements on those programmes. So until such time as we do we will not be making any statement.

I can though, Mr. Speaker, indicate that it looks that we will be signing a number of agreements with CMHC on the best terms possible that we can get, they are not what we want. But we have negotiated ever since last Fall for better terms and conditions but have been somewhat unsuccessful from what we actually wanted. But we will be in a position ,! would say,within the next two or three weeks to indicate the kind of programme that we are successful in signing with them. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the bon. Minister of Education.

A couple of days ago we were informed by the Premier of a new appointment for the present assistant deputy minister of Education. I wonder if the minister is in a position today to tell the House how that position, the assistant deputy minister of Education of Vocational Division, will be filled and when? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: I will take notice. That is the prerogative of the Premier. Of course, I can only take notice of that question. 9301

J~ne 1, 1976 Tape no. 3054 Page 3- mw MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Premier coming back for the question. I wonder 1f the Premier coul.d indicate to the House, Sir, what the lead time is on the 150 megawatt IUlit, thermal IUlit, at Bolyroodi Number one. And wbat then 1 you know, what eomeli after it~ What would be our needs then~ Alul could he relate our needs to the time fr811e with respect to the court caae?

In· other words,how long is ~he court case likely to take ad what do we do once that 150 megawatt thermal unit is in there'l What are we going to do about our electrical needs at that point? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, 9302

June 1, 1976 Tape 3055 PK - 1 Premier Moores: as far as the length of time of the court case itself that is impossible for me to forecast. As far as the lead time is concerned the order for the equipment at Holyrood, the 150 megawatts would have to be exercised by this Fall in order to have it by 1982 which is the time the Churchill Falls power would have come on or the transmission line would have been built. So~in other words,the order for it would have to be placed no later than this Fall for the generating unit.

And, Sir, as amazing as it may sound that would only give us approximately a yea~,to a year and-a-half's grace before we would either have to do it again or come up with other alternate arrangements. MR. ROBERTS: We are using about 100 megawatts a year. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Georges followed by the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MRS. H. MACISAAC: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. I would like to ask the minister what the situation is right now with respect to the strike at F1intkote in Flat Bay in St. Georges.

And whether or not the government has been approached with respect to assisting in bringing about a settlement? MR,~'>PJ!AKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, the situation is that the strike is still continuing. As far as being approached by anyone to provide assistance, yes we have, and we have had a conciliation officer assigned to the case for some months now, and that conciliation officer is still working with both the parties to try to bring about a settlement to the dispute.

I understand he is not having a great deal of success up to this point in time, but he will certainly keep working at it with a view to trying to get the dispute settled within thr shortest possible period. MR. SPE_AKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: A question for the Minister of Finance in his capacity as President of Treasury Beard. I wonder would the minister indicate 9303

June 1, 1976 Tape 3055 PK - 2 Mr. SiliiDions: - --- -- - what steps may be on-going to avoid a strike on the part of the NAPE workers, the general service unit. I understand, Mr. Speaker, and I think it is public,that the vote to strike was almost unanimous. And would the minister indicate first of all whethertthis information has been communicated to him officially, the r~sult of the strike vote now? And also whether he would indicate what steps may be on-going to reach a settlement? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. Yes. The general service people,through their negotiator Mr.

Locking , notified us yesterday officially that the strike ballot was in. I think the terminology was an overwhelming majnrity rather than - but anyway the point is that there was a majority in favour of strike action if an agreement is not negotiated in the intervening weeks. We have indicated,as I said yesterday , publicly on many occasions that we are prepared to go upward from our position as it is presently on the table. We would hope that the general service people will come down to meet us somewhere in that area.

Whether we have officially contacted the NAPE general service to that effect or not T do not know. I think a letter is being drafted today. But in any event, the information is certainly public knowledge. We have said many times that we are ready, willing and able to sit down. And the same indication was expressed in the letter that we received from NAPE yesterday that they are anxious to get back to the table. So I would be very surprised if negotiations do not resume within a day or so. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR • SPEAKER: The hon. member -a supplementary1 MR. SIMMONS: - ----- Mr.

Speaker, I certainly hope the minister is right that negotiations will resume and can be brought to a successful conclusion . In the event, Mr. Speaker, that that is not the case and the union exercises its option within the law to strike as of next Monday, can the minister indicate whether any steps are being 930~

June 1,1976 Tape 3055 PK- 3 Mr. !:immons : taken to deal with the situa.tion, you know, presllllling this strike does become a reality? When I say the situation, I am thinking in terms of expediting the necessary functions of ~~:overnment .and the payment of salaries and that kind of thing? Can he indicate whether any emergency plan is being comtemplated to go into action if the strike does take effect as of next Monday? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon, Minister of Finance. MR ._D..Q.QQ!.:._ No.

Of course we are working on the optimistic theory that a strike will not aake place, but certainly we are not ruling out the possibility th,at a strike may occur. To· that end the permenant heads of the various departments and d.ivisiOtt!> ' have been meeting, and I understand there is a further meeting this afternoon to lay contingency plans to handle the essen ·tial services of government in the event that such an unfortuna -te situation should occur • I think 9305

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3056 Page 1 - lllW MR. DOODY. particularly in areas such as the Social Services Divtiion where welfare officers have got to be available to make emergency payments and so on. there will be senior staff, hopefully,available to fill these emergency positions. These are, as I say, simply emergency plana, contisgency plana, that are being formulated, and we are certainly not looking forward to a strike. As a matter of fact we are looking forward to a very peaceful and,hopefully,a very quick settlement te the situation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice. Is the Province represented as an intervenor before the Supreme Court of Canada in the action now being heard, the reference with respect to the constitutional validity of the anti-inflation legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, not in a formal way. Notice was served upon all provinces, and it was agreed that certain provinces who have precisely the same position as we have, particularly Ontario, would intervene. But Mr. Keith Mercer of my department ia in Ottawa sitting in on the hearings, but not participating. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchana followed by the hon. gentleman from Conception Bav South. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Spaaker, I just noticed 7after being reoognied, that the minister to whom I was to direct this question is not seated so I will cede the floor with the hope that I will be recognized if he returns during the question period. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A question for the Minister of Justice that I posed in his absence yesterday during the ouestion period to the House Leader, that is on the opening of the new fire hall, I believe, on O'Leary Avenue:

(1) When will it open?

(2) How many will be employed there? 930fl

June l, 1976 Tape no. 3056 Page 2 - mw Mr. Nolan. And thirdly, if I may add another portion to the question, is the minister giving any consideration to augmenting the volunteer fire brigades who are doing a very fine job, as I sm sure he knows, with some permanent staff other than in St. John's? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if the han. gentleman will put a string around his finger to remind himself to ask me that question again on tomorrow, I will have the answer in more detail. MR, NOLAN: That will be the third time. MR.

HICKMAN: Well, I was not in the House yesterday so this morning bright and early I asked for a definitive date so that I could reply to the question of the han. gentleman for Conception Bay South ~r. Nolan) and the Fire Chief, Cecil Sooley, will give me this information tomorrow, and I will be able to enlighten the House with all the clarity that the House demands and is entitled to on that very issue. MR. NOMN: How about the volunteer fire bridages? MR. SPEAKER; The han. member for Baie Verte - White Bay followed by the han. gentleman for Eagle River. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. Could the minister tell the House whether or not he has received a copy of the report released, I think it was May 21, by the asbestos working group of the subcommittee on environmental Health? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. MR . COLLINS; Yea, Mr. Speaker, we received the report yesterday. MR. RIDEOUT; I will leave the supplementary for another couple of days. MR. SPEAKER; The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I am caught in the dilemma, too, because my question was for the Minister of Tourism who is not in the House.

He promised me a statement he would Rive the House todav 1 but did not give it. In his absence then I would like to ask the Minister of Finance a question , in a lighter vein. Could the minister 9307

June 1. 1976 Tape no. 3056 Page 3 - mw Mr. Strachan. assure us that he will in future instruct the graphic artists who do stylized drawings of the Province on the cover of the estimates to show the Province in its correct relatiou.ship as far as shape and size is concez:ned? I was par .ticularly interested bec:auae area wise .... 1.f , •.• r it shows that Churchill Falls lies ~ wi~h the boundaries of this Province as though we had already conceded Quebec territory'l MR, SPEAICER: The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOOPY: I have already anticipated the question from the bon. member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) and I h4ve so instructed the graphic artist, who did the design. I congratulated them o.n their imagiAAtion, but I 8DI afraid I was not quite aa complimentary with regard to the act~l dimensions of the cover. Yes, I 8DI quite aware of the cover. It looks like a codfish gone ape. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Terra Nova. MR. •. LUSR: A question for .the Minister of Education, Mr. Speaker. The president of the university said recently that in two years he envisaged a cris;t..s in the supply of trained school teachers for this Province.

I wonder if the minister is in a position to tell the House hoy accurately this forecast compares with his own department's projection• for the same time period? !1308 / v ,..

June 1, 197f Tape 3057 IR-1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Education t-IR. HOUSE: Jdr. Speaker, <~e have not got a projection on that - we have got a projection, we do not think there is going to be a shortage. Rut we have not done a detailed study of it. I think this ste~d from a statement I made a couple of days ago before the president made the statement. I was asked about the number of teachers in the Province. There are a number of teachers, I do not know how large, but there are a number of teachers who are presently qualified Who cannot ~et positions.

I qualified that also by saying that there are a lot of school hoards in the Province that say that they cannot get qualified teachers to go to certain areas. We] l as it stands there is an oversupply of teachers now at the pr.~sent time. Now a few years ago the department was encouraging a supply of teachers by providing grants to go in for teacher training. But when we d1d not need so many teachers we cut that down. So I do not know. They are saying at university we need 300 per year. I do not know how accurate that is.

There was a report done five or six years ago which stated that we would have a shortage teachers now, at the present time. That projection, of course, is not true. We have 7,700 teachers in the field and the school population is levelling off and 1t seems to us that even though we improve the pupil-teacher ratin the number of teachers will not appreciably exceed that number, 7,700,tn the foreseeable future. So, while I cannot say it is wrong or that the facts that they nre presenting at the university are wronF, I can say that we do not think we are going to have a shortage of teachers in the next two years. MF.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Eapoir followed by the bon. member for Stephenville. MR •. SI!-IMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to ask a question because all the fellows you want to ask them of are not in the House. But I do have - oh, the Jdinister of Tourism is back again. Over the weekend, ~r. Speaker, the minister got his hot little hands on 9309

June 1, 1976 Tape 3057 IB-2 J'AP. SIMMONS: $500,000 over in Port Aux Basques. I wonder would he indicate. as a result of the presentation from the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce on behalf of the federal government, would he indicate now what the status of the center is for Channel-Port Aux Basques? 1·'herher a new design has been agreed on? And whether or not the work will actually go ahead t~is year? ~'R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. RH'J<EY: ¥r. Speaker, I am not in a position to say anything w:lth regards to the design.

I confronted the Chamber of Commerce and the town of Port Aux Basoues on Saturday.when I received the check,with two problems: One, the design,and two, the location. I am waiting to hear back from the town council, of course, which is really the prime spokesman for the people of that town. I have informed the Chamber of Commerce who are very, very active and very interested in this project that as far as we are concerned there are a couple of problems with regards to the location of the building inasmuch as the on again, off ap;ain project of Granrl Bay has caused som~ c~ncern over the past.

It is one of the reasons why we could not pin down a locat:lon_, we were waiting. Finally Canadian National made up it's mind on that. Now there is some indication that the CN must address itself to rerouting the traffic flow. Now, before we spend $500,000,nevertheless or notwithstanding the fact that it is federal money, before we spend this money to complete this project,of course,one would have to be sure as to where the traffic flow was going to go and what rerouting is going to take place.

Because it would indeed be rather crazy to put the kind of an ewtahl:lshment that t•P have in mind on the s:lte of, let us say, where the Annie Coadv is located only to find that the traffic is bypassing it and then you get a traffic jsm of people having to turn around or come back; jnneed some of them missing it altogether. So that is really where the situation is. As soon as those two items are resolved we are ready to call tenders. 9310

June 1, 197fl Tape 3057 !'8-3 MR . SHq.q_"'N~: A supplementary. Has ~he Minister had any recent discussions with CN or is he in a position t o say or to know when CN might give him or hts derartment some firm decision as it affects his project? !-IR. §f.EAKEP: The hon. ~inister of Tourism. Jo"R. I!ICJ<F.Y: t have mane an official request - I should not say ! have - but, ~rr. Speaker, I have instructed my staffJ immecliately on returnfnr, from the weekend at Port Aux Basques, 1 have instructed my staff to make c~ntact with Canadian National and also to prep are a letter for my stpnature, make it official, asking the m 9311

June 1, 1976 Tape 3058 PK - 1 to tell us very clearly by map what they propose to do by way of rerouting traffic, if anything, and pointing out to them the importance of it, and that our project must go ahead as soon as possible. And, of course it is very critical to us that they tell us now whatever changes they are going to make, or if they are not going to make any and that before making any in the future they take into account that this establishment that we hope to put in Port aux Basques is very vital to the travelling public and especially visitors who are coming to the Province for the first time.

SOME RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville followedrby the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. W. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister of Justice. When will tenders be called for the proposed Community Correctional Centre in Stephenville? When does he expect the work to begin on the necessary renovations? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, what I have to say now is subject to my checking with the Department of Public Works and Services.

But immediately we obtained. about three weeks ago as the hon. gentleman is aware,enthusiastic approval in principle from the Stephenville Town Council, the Department of Public Works and Services through their minister were asked to prepare the necessary detai~ed specifications to enable the minister ~o call for tenders. As of last week the specifications and plans had not been completed to that extent but it has been impressed upon the Department of Public Works, by ~overnment, as a matter of policy, that this is to be treated as a matter of great urgency.

So I would hope that tenders will be c~lled within the next two or three weeks. And as soon as the tenders close, assuming that there are tenders and that they are at all satisfactory, a contract will be let forthwith. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. 9312

June 1, 1976 Tape 3058 PK - 2 MR. S'PF.ATCF.R: Th~ hnn. ~mber for Windsor-Buchans . - I will allow one supplementary. MR. MCNEIL: When does the minister expect to have the Centre open for occupancy? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Justice. ------ MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, that depends on when tenders are called, and when a contract is let. And it is always a very hazardous thing,! suggest,for anyone to predict when a construction project is going to end.

That new phrase, that delightful phrase, time frame, our time frame ; which is a thing that covers a multitude of sins;and tenders and specifications is by the Fall. But please do not held me to that date if the tender calls indicate that it is later.

But I want to reassure the hon. gentleman in this House that this is number one priority in the Department of Justice and the government has given us absolute endorsement, the Town Council of Stephenville have enthusastically approved the proposal and offered to serve with us, to serve on any community committee,which is so vital to a Community Correctional Centre, and there will be no time lost at all in bringing this to a successful conclusion. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

He will recall a question some time last Fall about the government's attitude to the Patterson Report which recommended the amalgamation of Grand Falls-Windsor, and the minister's commitments to the House are on record. In view of those commitments what is now the government's attitude of councils, both councils have pre•used the report, they have made public statements~ what now is the government's attitude with regards to the Patterson recommendation that the towns of Windsor add Grand Falls be amalgamated? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A question has been asked if anybody wishes to answer , then he may. If not we will proceed on. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Hous••g· 9313

!June 1, 1976 Tape 3058 PK - 3 H6K. A. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the position is the same as it always has been in that the government through the department waited to hear the views of the two councils in the region, and that I intand,as minister,to meet with both councils, either together or separately or both to further discuss it. In the first instance i~ must be initiative from the local area.

The department does not feel that we should,as a result of any study or any recommendations made out of a study,that we should automatically implement those because they could be against the majority of bhe citizens in a given area. But I want to sit down and discuss the report in detail with the countils in the area, and to see whether they are interested in pursuing either the specific recommodations or modifications thereof towards some kind of regional authority in the Grand Falls-Windsor area. MR.. SPEAKER: The time is up. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Order 21.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The QUUing Of Titles Act", (Bill No. 20). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, this bill really has to be examined in conjunction with the Crawn Lands Amendment Act which passed second reading and which was so fully debated in this hon. House yesterday. I This -ill simply extends, confers upon the Court the jurisdiction to award a certificate of title against Her Majesty when twenty ye•rs possession has been established prior to January 1, 1977.

And as I say the bill was debated quite fully yesterday and this is only complimentary to the Crown Lands Amendment Act. I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~fR. E. M. ROBERTS: I thank you, Mr. Speaker, and as the minister says this bill ~eally was debated in principle,and quite the.aughly, by the House yesterday. I suppose the only affect of this bill really is to implement the principle to which the House quite readily gave its

June 1, 1976 Tape 3058 P K - 4 MR. ROBERTS: assent yesterday. I do not think much more need to be •aid to The Quieting of Titles Act. I see it is being used more and more and it is certainly one way under which a, one means by which a citizen can have his title to a piece of land confirmed. I suppose it is really the only way we are going to have for a long time, at least by court order. Many titles are quieted by treaty between private individuals and disclaimers and affjdavits and so forth and titles in effect have quieted all of the time.

But we have to have a procedure whereby an individual or a corporation,far that matter : can go to court and get a title quieted in a legal sense. This act merely speeds it up a little bit or makes it a little clearer with respect to the Crown. I realize the Minister of Justice is having trouble hearing, and I realize it is not his fault, But his colleagues outside are being vociferous and perhaps they can be either less vociferous or more distant. It is truly very difficult in the House - I owe the gentleman from Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) an apology because yesterday I took a flick or two at him because I thought he had interrupted me, and it turned out he had not interrupted me4 He had in fact said shut up ' quite audibly, but it was not to me, it was to one of his other colleagues. I said to him outside of the House that I apologize, ~nd I would like to make it clear to the Rouse that it was not him any more than it is not the Minister of Justice who is offending this time. But all I need.say, Sir, if the HoBae was as quiet Sir, as The quieting Of Titles Act then we would do very well indeed.

And I would say to the Mini ster of Justice, Sir, in closing the debate for my part on second reading of this magnificent reform he has introddced ~ that what we need, Sir, is not just The Quieting Of Titles Act, what we need, Sir, is a quieting of members act and that should get unanimous support as well, Sir. SOME RON. Mm1BERS : Hear, hear: 9315

Jun e 1 , 1976 Tape 3058 PK - 5 MR. SPEIXER: I.£ the hoe. member lt,eaks now he closes the debate. The hon. Minister of Justi .c:e. MR. HlClOfAN: Mr. Spealter, only for the sake of atanding I have nothing else to say. MR. SPEAKER: I will move the question I presume. Is it the pleas1,ire of the House that the bill be now reed a second ti!ne. Tho.se in favour "Aye", contrary ''Nay" , carried. On motion, a bill "An Act Further To Amend The Quieting Of . Titles Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Rouse presently by leave. 9316 ,..

Jane 1, 1976 Tape no. 3059 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Order 22. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Child Welfare Act, 1972." (Bill No. 17) MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr . Speaker, this is a verv minor piece of legislation, housekeeping legislation. The first clause or the first part of the amendment corresponds with the propesed amendment to the~mp.loym~n~ of Children Act which, of course, comes under the - or is administered by the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations?

And clause no. 3 will permit any regulations under this act to have effect prior to the date of publicat,nn in the Newfoundland Gazette, if the regulations so state. This was bDosght about because of some concern expressed in the cost-shared programmes between the federal and provincial government, some concern as to whether or not the allowances could be paid before they were actually published in the Newfoundland Gazette. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, as the minister has said, this is more or less housekeeping legislation, and brings this act in conjunction with the Employment of Children Act, and will also permit the regulations to have effect prior to publication. I do not think it is a very important thing, but at the same time perhaps necessary. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Child Welfare Act, 1972," read a seoond time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 17). MR. SPEAKER: Order 23. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Medical Act," (Bill No. 18) MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I will move second reading of this act. This is an amendment to the Medical Act which would permit the practise of acupuncture. At the moment the practise of acupuncture in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is not regulated. It is carried on by medical practitioners, but there is nothing to prevent 9317

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3059 Page 2 - mw Mr. Wells. me, if I wanted to, for example, from treating Your Honour by way of acupuncture Of course, it is obvious now that acupuncture has become a respectable part of the practise of medicine in thia part of the world. It is necessary that it be brought under some control so that it is done by properly qualified medical people and not quacks or people who might take a three day courae somewhere and carry on with the pEactise of acupuncture. So this bill will amend the Medical Act, Mr.

Speaker, to permit the practise of acupuncture to be barried on by registered medical practitioners and dentists, except in circumstances, and by peraona approved by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council 1 and approval would only be conaidered if the Newfoundland Medical Board recommends auch action. So the purpoae of this amendment, Mr. Speaker, is to make sure that those who carry on the p••ctise of acupuncture carry it on in a safe manner so that there can be no harm come to the public who receive this treatment, and accordingly I move second reading. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Mr.

Young): The hon. member for Baie Verte -White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I think while this looks like a very small piece of legislation, l think it is a very important one as the minister suggested. Acupuncture has certainly become accepted by medical practitioners in the Western World, in this part of the world over the past number of years. And in that reapect I think it is right and proper that the use of acupuncture should certainly be properly regulated by the laws of this Province.

I am a little concerned about the exceptions stated in the explanatory notes to the b1ll, and maybe the minister could have a word to say on that when he winds up the debate. It says to be used by medical practitioners and dentists except in circumstances and by persons approved by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. I suppose that is by the cabinet. That is what it means to me anyway. Who are we talking about approving? What are the exceptions? Who will those people be? And for what purpoAe does the minister or the government intend that these people 9318

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3059 Page 3 - mw Mr. Rideout. would practise acupuncture? To me the only people who should practise acupuncture are qualified med:!.cal practitioners under proper medical use. So I am a little bit concerned about the exception. Maybe the minister .auld allay that fear when he replies to the few words I have said. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young~ When the minister now speaks he closes the debate. MR. WELLS: On that point, Mr.

Speaker, it was felt in drafting-now I might say that the government of Newfoundland has the view that o•ly people ~ho are qualified in medicine or dentistry should carry on the practise of acupuncture. It may be, however, that as the whole practise of acupuncture is advanced in North America and in Canada and in Newfoundland,it may be that it might be found that Jl oerson who is nQt_. some time in the future, not "' ~ully qualified medical practitioner, but none the less had perhaps a three or four year university course almost like a paramedic, such a perso~ conceivably could be licenced to practise.

Something like that, a paramedical person. But at the moment cert~inly it is our feeling in government that only a properly qualified doctor or dentist should do this treatment. And so, Mr. Speaker, I think this is a good amendment to the Medical Act, and hope that it works out well, and accordingly I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Medical Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Coomittee of the Whole House presently by leave. MR. SPEAKER (Mr.

Young): Order 24. (Bill No. 18) Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act." (Bill No. 22) MR •. WELLS: In the absence of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker, I w~ll move second reading of this bill. It is

an act to amend the Pharmaceutical Association Act and is to be cited as the amendment act of this year. As the explanatory note says, "The Parliament of 931~

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3059 Page 4 - mw Mr. Wells. Canada has repealed the Proprietary or Patent Medicine Act with effect from July 1, 1976. Such medicines will now be governed by regulations under the Food And Drug Act (Canada)." The amendment, therefore, is made necessary by that change in federal r~gulation and will permit the continued sale of the medications in the non-pharmacy outlets. So basically as I understand it, it is patent medicines. This is what the bill is designed to allow.

And as I say it arises simply and only because of the change in the Federal Act, and accordingly I would move second reading, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And with the concurrence of my colleague, the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) who is our spokesman on health matters, I would like to say a word or two with respect to the bill, but also to the act which it amendE, and the word or two with respect to the bill itself I can dispose off quite simply.

The bill as the minister says is a very minor consequents! amendment, consequents! to some action which was taken earlier by the Parliament of Canada, by the Government of Canada. Of course, we support the bill for the reasons which the minister has enumerated.

I would like to touch briefly though on another matter arising under the Pharmaceutical Act and it is too bad the Minister of Health is not here, but I would like very briefly to bring to the attention of the Minister wibhout Portfolio the situation in respect to the so-called free drug plan which is administered under the Pharmaceutical Act and under the supervision of his colleague, the Minister of Health .Bythat I mean the scheme or plan under which a person receiving social assistance is also entitled to receive drugs which are paid for bv the government, and in turn the government, Sir, receives from the Government of Canada, under the Canada Assistance Plan, 9320

June 1, 1976 Tape no 3059 Page 5 - mw Mr. Roberts. fiftv per cent of the cost of meeting those prescriptions. Mr. Speaker, my concern is this. I think that plan is•being widely abused. I think it is being abused, not necessarily by recipients, I think it is being abused by druggists and by pharmacists practising under the authority of the Pharmaceutical Act .• I would merely bring it to the attention of the minister. I do not beliPVe in trotting out names or specifics, although I could give some if he wishes.

I believe the Pharmaceutical Association ~ who have taken a very responsible position in this matter, the professional association, have brought the matter to the attention of the NiniRter of Health on a number of occasions and have had a less than satisfactory response. Well I find that disquieting, Sir, because the sums involved are relatively large and the principle involved is a very great one. And I think the government's response should be much more positive and much more encouraging.

What is happening, Sir, is that on occasion -and I think the pattern shows that it is confined to relatively few pharaacists, relatively few drug stores - drugs are being dispensed in greater quantities than they are prescribed or at much higher prices. There seem to be some drug stores who have two levels of prices, and what actually happens is in you go, and you say, "Here is my prescription, here is my drug card, I would like my hundred asprin," ~r whatever , to take a generic, and to take a non-presceiption item for the discussion, 9321

June 1, 1976 Tape 3060 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: and the drugg:l st says, "Very well, that is going to be $1.23", or whatever the pr1 ce is0 This he says, "Oh, you are on the govenunent, you are on the welfare plan." "Yes", you say, "I am". ''Well," he says, "in that case the price is $173", a higher price, the second price ancl the higher one. As I say I do not believe this fA the place to bring out specific names and specific examples of what are , after all, only allegations.

There may be defences, there may be explanations but I do want to bring to the attention of the minister and of the House the fact that this is happening, I understand. I do want to bring to the attention of the minister and the House that the pharmaceutical board or the association, whatever the governing body of the pharmaceutical profession is, has brought it to the attention of the ¥inister of Health and for one reason or another the Minister of Health has done, as far as anybody knows, little or nothing about it. There has not been a vigorous investigation.

There has not been a ruthless rooting out of any abuses that may exist. The matter is quite serious. The amounts of money involve!! under this free drug peogramme are staggering and have grown almost beyond belief. I do not have the estimates in front of me, Sir, we have finished debating them 1 but I would venture that the amount of money, Sir, is now several millions of dollars in total, possibly of the order of $3 million or $4 million. I will wager, Sir, that that amount has increased by fivefold in the last four or five years.

So, you know, it is a matter to which a min:l.ster's attention as the Minister of Health should be directed. It is an important matter. We must have a programme under which people can get access to drugs when they need them, but I think we have got to make sure that programme is not abused. And my concern now, Sir, is that it is being abused. My concern, let me clarify it, is that it is being 9322

June 1, 1976 Tape 3060 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: abused,not hy recipients. In this case the welfare recipient .is an innocent party. He goes to his doctor. He needs a prescription. The doctor writes the prescription and the man carries it up to his druggist and he gives it in. MR. RIDEOUT: The vote is ~3.7 million. MR. ROBERTS: My colleague from Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) tells me that the vote this year is estimated to be $3.7 million. '!'hat would be a gross figure and as I say, I would wager that is four or five times What it was four or five years ago. It has gone up astronomically. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, in many cases people on social assistance are receiving the very best in drugs, far better than the people who are paying taxes, pepple who are working and who are not able to qualify for social assistance, and this is so often true. You knm,•, the guy Who gets it right in the neck or in another part of his anatomy in these matters is the guy ~.m.o is just not on welfare. Re is just above that line, usually with a struggle. Often he does not qualify for subsidized rental housing programmes. He does n'ot qualify for these special drug programmes and so forth. I have many examples, we al 1 do.

Every member of the House has examples of people who are .1ust staying off welfare, juRt above the ] ine and not qualifying for social assistance because they have a job and, you know, it is barely paying but enough to keep them above the line where they can qualify for help. Of course it infuriates these people to see other people going up and getting apparently unlimited suppl tes of drugs. I also think it would be worth checking into the patterns of drugs.

I have seen some studies, perhaps quick ones and not thorough ones, hut studies nonetheless which indicate that the per capita consumption of drugs on the social assistance programmes is far higher thRn the per capita consumption of drugs in the Province as a Whole. I do not think - 9323

June 1, 1976 Tape 3060 IB-3 MR. MURPHY: Particularly where we have to send them out to districts like yours, from Corner Brook and places like that. :MR. ROBEFTS: Well, no. The Minister of Provincial Affairs mentions sending thin~s to districts like mine, from Corner Brook. I said no only with respect to the fact there is a hospital at St. Anthony which dispenses drugs. But I do not believe people on social assistance by and large are any less healthy than the average citizen of this Province and by and large they should not use any greater drugs.

But also this plan that :l.s administered by the Health nepartment is being used as well to prescribe drugs which by no standard are medical drugs. And it pays for many drugs that in the ordinary course, you know, are not medically necessary although they, true, are prescribed by doctors. But you know, weight reduction pills and this sort of thing. AN HON. MEMBER: Birth control. MR. ~ORERTS: The hon. minister mentions birth control pills and so forth. But, you know, I think these are things which we should look into because the costs are large.

I do not want to deny any person in this Province who needs assistance and who qualifys for it, I do not .want them to be denied that assistance. That would be close to criminal. But, Sir, we have gone too far the other way. I do not. think it is the welfare clients, to use that term, the correct term, who are really benefiting. I think it is some druggists, one or two applies in the barrel, Sir, are perhaps not all they should be. Now, I do not want to give examples but I w:lll gladly let the minister have outside the House, such information as I have I will tell him from whence my information comes.

But I can tell him that it cornea fro• members of the profession who are concerned because they feel that, you know, the whole plan will come into disrepute because of this and they also feel,as citizens, and they are concerned, that the government are being ripped off. I do not want to use that - that is the sort of term people use trying to make cheap headlines. 932~

June 1, 1976 Tape 3060 IB-4 MR. POBE'RTS: But the governmen r are paying more than they need to pay· to ~et the service that should br gotten and it is because of these unscrupulous people who are abusin~ the plan. I may add I have spoken to one or two people in the insurance business, the medical insurance business , and they find out the same thing. Indeed T know of one .or two firms around town, Sir, Which have refused and are refusing as a matter of policy to accept claims from certain dru~ stores because they feel those claims are inflated. The mechanism is simple and I mentioned it earlier, Mr.

Speaker, the mechanism is one prf.ce for the guy who is having somebody else pay for it and another price for the guy who is paying for it himself. '!'he first prf.ce is much, much higher than the second price. That is unfair. It is not the place to go into the whole problem, Mr. Speaker, hut ft is the place to go into the government programme.

All I want to do is to bring it to the attention of the ministry publicly because, as I say, my information is that the pharmacists association, _the pharmaceutical association have raised the matter with the Minister of Health on occasion and have not had a meaningful response. Let me just mention one other thing, Sir, on this subject, the age old topic of generic drugs. Is there anything new on this? The arguments are well known.

But is the Province prepared or contemplating introducing legislation allowing generic drugs to be substituted for presc~iption drugs where a pharmacist feels it necessary; A doctor now can prescribe a generic drug if he wishes. But we all know the reasons why,and there are proper reasons why, understandable reasons as well as proper, why many doctors prescribe brand name rather than generic drugs. But the fact remains that the generic drugs by and large are much, much cheaper and as far as I know every hit as efficacious.

Take aspirin which is a very common drug, not a prescription drug, hut you can buy a brand name of aspirin at say, one dollar for 100 tablets and you can buy a generic brand, 9325

June 1, 1976 Tape 3060 IB-5 Ml1, l!OBFRTS: a non brand aspirin for say one quarter of that cost. The same sort of things are true. You know the drug companies have done ~Teat thtngs. They do some strange thinp:s, I believe it is still true that thPy are giving the Province, the Health Department, free tranquilizers, valium and librium. • When I was Health }'inister I was shocked to discover we were being p,iven several million tranquilizers, pills, a year, valium and ]ibrium the two most widely prescribed ones.

The reason for this , of course , was to drive out that manufacturer -Roache, J believe, make them - was to drive out all other comparable products to get a monopoly. We took some appropriate steps then.

But without r;oing into the never never world of prescri.ption drugs and everything else I do want just to raise the question - it has been debated many times, there are arguments pro and con- I am asking whether the government have any intention of amending the pharmaceutical act, this bill now,or the act which is now being amended,to allow a druggist who is a oualifierl person,man or woman to prescribe,to substitute a generic for a brand where that is desirable and necessary( It could be a substantial saving. I do not think there are any medical reasons against it.

A.s far as I know the profession has now settled that question. Some provinces, I believe, do in fact do that. But T want to raise these two points, ¥r. Speaker, because I believe they are relevant. I think they are important and I think they are ones which the ministry might wish to look into.which I believe they should look into. I would ask the minister if he could let us have an indication,in the absence of his colleague, where we stand now. ~m. SPEAKER: Tf the minister speaks now, he closes the debate. }~. WELLS: I thank the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, for raising these points.

When I was Minister of Health , for a period , one of the things that surprised me, I think, more than anything else in the Health 9326

.Tune l, 1976 Tape 3060 I'S-6 }fl'. WELLS: Department was when I went down to the government drug store - I do not know if thet is the proper name for i t or not, down in Fort Pepperrell, Pleasantville area , Central Pharmacy - I was aston i shed not bein& famfliar with these things, astonished at the variety and ranP,e of dru&s, both pres~ription and non-prescription that were there and were Rhipped and sold all over - not sold but shipped all over Newfoundland to supply the indigent.

Tben,of course >in addi tion to what comes out of that central pharmacy there is also, as the hon . member says, the drug cards which are presented and the prescriptions supplie~ to i ndigent persons by the regular drug store. I mean, 1t is astounding the scope and volume of this busines~. The othe r thing that surprised me, of course, were i tems that ~re not in the normal thinkin& of all of us, prescription drugs. They might be birth control pills .

They might be aspirins, all sorts of things, librium , valiUD, every conceivable kind of substance clown there which were supplied in lar&e quantities to indigent persons. 9327

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3061 Page 1 - mw Mr. Wells. You know any government is pleased and glad to be able to supply drugs and other necessities of life,in the proper fora and under prescription etc.,to people who cannot afford to pay for them. I mean this is an excellent thing, but it is like everything else, sometimes abuses can creep in. There is no doubt about it that $3.5 odd million 7 whatever it is that is being spent on this , is a considerable sum of money.

Now there is not one taxpayer in Newfoundland who would begrudge it provided that it is properly spent and the best value is obtained and drugs are not dished out in greater quantities than are necessary. So I commend the hon. member for raising the matter. and it is something that I shall recommend to my colleague. the Minister of Health. Certainly government is concerned and wishes to ensure that money is not being wasted by oversupply. unnecessarily large amounts of these various drugs,which are quite costly, supplied when it is not necessary and it is something well worth looking into.

On the question of generic drugs as distinct from proprietary names this has always seemed to me to be something which would be of benefit to both the ordinary citizen and also. of course, benefit to government,financially , in the supply of drugs to indigent persons. And I might say that it is not the intention of the government 1 nor is there a bill going to be presented to the Legislature in this session to deal with that matter 1 but it is something, I think. we could well and ought to take a look at, because what the hon. member says, according to my information, is quite correct.

And the generic named drugs are­ invariably it seems ~ much. much cheaper than the proprietary or brand names, and I think it is something that is deserving a look at. lecause as alwaya,with these various social welfare schemes, Mr. Speaker. it is a que~tion of supplying legitimate needs but it also. where government is involved. is a question of supplying these needs without spending more money than is necessary to do it. So, as I say, I thank 9328

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3061 Page 2 - mw Mr. Wells. the han. member for these references, and accordingly I move second reading, Mr. Speaker. On motion, a hill, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Coamittee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill Ho.19). MR. SPEAKER: Order 25. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Development Areas (Lands) Act." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Mini~ter of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSIAU: Up she comes, Mr. Speaker.

Before I start off the bill I might say that this is the technical term for the words 'land freeze', the designation of development land. And in essence this bill proposes that the administration of the Development Areas (Land ) Act be transferred to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and that the act be amended to provide authority for regulating the use of land for agricultural and other purposes. Presently the act is administered by the Minister of Industrial Development and it applies only to the control of land for new industrial or commarcial purposes.

The bill proposes that the act be used to extend the control of land beyond ctiat of industrial speculation and provide a basis for implementing a provincial land use policy. It is essentially enabling legislation by which specific development areas could be established by Order in Council as and when appropriate. The establishment of these areas would facilitate a syat~tic and orderly approach to provincial land use and permit sufficient flexibility for the progressive investigation and solution of particular problems. In essence, Mr.

Speaker, what it does is enables the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, through the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture,to designate lands in the Province for the optimum or most practical use that government would deem fit for that particular tract of land. 9329

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3061 Page 3 - m:w Mr. Rousseau. Now it was under this Act that the designation and development land on the Avalon Peninsula,or the so-called land freeze,took place. I will not address myself to that now, I think I have talked about it before,unless any members raise it, of course,now then I will attempt to answer it when I move second reading of the bill. MR. SPEAKER(Mr. Yo~: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, we support certain aspects of this particular bill, but there are a number of questions we would like to raise in the meantime.

Essentially this amendment or this bill changes the title,"an act to provide for the orderly develoment and use of designated areas in the Province and to prevent speculation in land in those areas.'' Now, Sir, the two operative and probably most important phrases or words in that particular title are ''the orderly development. " Obviously that is motherhood, and we do indeed support it. It is greatly needed in this Province, although as I suggested yesterday,in speaking to another bill_sometimes this causes hardship with respect to gaining building permits in certain rural parts of our Province.

Sir, I think, anything that would prevent the speculation in land in these particular areas is commendable, but I would just like for the minister to elaborate somewhat on, you know, functionally, in what particular ways will this bill in fact decrease or prevent, as the title of the acts says, prevent, actually prevent speculation in land in these particular areas?

And while I am speaking the minister could acknowledge negatively or positively am I now to understand that the development of land under the juris.iction of the minister besides industrial land, hydro electric purpose , will include agricultural, commercial, industrial, recreational and residential or other purposes? Well, Sir, the point that I would like to make here , if that is the case ,is that the development of land in this Province practically wholly and solely appears now to come under the 93JO

June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3061 Page 4 - mw Mr. Rowe. jurisdiction of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture or Crown Lands, looking at it from the Crown Lands point of view. Now, Sir, therefore, one is moved to ask the simple question: Where then comes the function of the Provincial Planning Division? Does this include municipal land or all other l~nd outside of municipal land1 Because what I am trying to get at, Mr.

Speaker, is this; that now that we apparently have control of the o•derly development of all land and the prevention of speculation of land in the Province now under the jurisdiction of one minister it seems to me that all of these other areas in government to which the Crown Lands ·Division and the minister have to go to for referrals before proving lands for commercial development, recreational development or residential development, it seems to me that if these divisions 1 or what have you)can be brought under the jurisdiction of the minister's department then some formal and functional division or committee within the minister's department should be established in order to have a smooth liaison with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing, for example, with the Department of Health, for example, with the Urban Control Division and the Provincial Planning Division.

Because, as the minister well knows, one of the problems encountered by many of our citizens now with respect to agricultural, commerical, industrial or residential or, you know, the development of land for any other purpose, is awaiting these referrals. And we have staff changes in these other divisions, and I do not think there is any real smooth liaison between the Crown Lands Division, which finally puts the stamp on the approval or disapproval of these applications. That is all they do.

They finally put the stamp, because their approval or disapproval is based upon the referrals gotten from other departments. And I think the most important referral is the one that is gotten from the Provincial Planning Division~if I remember correctly. 9331

.June 1, 1976 Tape no. 3061 Page 5 - mv MR . ROWE: So I would like to hear f rom the minister if any steps are being taken to have a smoother liaison in order that these applications may &e more readily dealt with , more readily processed and more readily approved, if at all possible, because 1t is a real problem in the P1:ovince at the p1:esent time? And the last point 1 guess I would want to make is that I would for the ministe'r to ind.icate specifically in what way this act will prevent speculation, because n332 ...

.Tune 1, 1976, Tape 31'lf;2, Page 1 -- aph speculation is something that ts very dHficuJt to prevent and I cannot see anything that the government has come up with in recent years that will end speculation except to stick a freeze on everything. If you have that kind of a situo.Uon you cannot have speculation but you c~tn certainly have - you have your freeze and vou can have the very opposite - you may well end speculation but you may well end development whether it is industrial or commercial or recreational or residential, at the same time.

So freezing certainly does not end speculation it ends everything. lt just freezes everything. So I do not think that ts the answer. So I will certainly appreciate it ,,;hen the minister closes the rlehate 1 some of my colleagues may have some comments they may ''ish to make; hut I vmuld like the minister to try ann ;m~n-rer these couple of questions and prohlems that I have indicated to the minister. ~1R. NOLAN: --·---- -- Hr.

Speaker in reference to this hill, a couple of observations: One is we are seeing more and more of the~ Crmro hecominp, involved in the alleged orderly develqpment and hopefully to avoid speculation or unnecessary commercial speculation and so on. But we also find a situation '"here if you talk to the man in the street they are now looking towards the Crmm in a somewhat skeptical manner because they fee] now that it is going' into the political arena, and those that can huild, develop and so on must have the right friends in thP right places. HR . ROPSF.F.All: That is not so. HR.

NOLAN: --------- That may not be so. I am not saying it is. But the fact is it does not mal-:e any difference- if enough people believ~ that this is so. As an example, on the farm land freeze, I mean, on the farm land freeze where you have had instances of people, developer~ and so on going to people and making them Rn offer provided they can get a permit to build. No one is ar~uing that we need to retain farm land in this Province. 9333

Jun e 1, l 'l 7Ei, Tape 306?., Pag e 2 - -- apb MR. NOLAN: No one is arguing that at all. But this to me is imposing an unjust and a very severe penalty on people who have no recourse. No recourse. And it is no good looking to the Crown because they are not getting any help, and it is most unfair. This is expropriation without compensation. And if you are going to take that land,as you have done ,you should pay the people the going price, Otherwise, come up with some other solution that will be satisfactory to them.

But the way it stands at this moment, it is going to get the minister, eventually, in trouhle and in some cases unfairly, I think, because from my own private discussion with him I know that he is trying to do a p,ood job to the best of his ability and the advice he is getting.

But the fact is now that ~rith the freeze the way it is, that you have said to these people, "This is your land for farming. you cannot use it for any other purpose, but you are not doing anything else, you are doing nothing." The case, for example, that comes to mind of a widow ~rith, I believe, fifteen acres of land who was offered a substantial amount of money by a developer only to he told no that he I guess or she could not get the necessary permit so that lady is now living in almost abject poverty all because of the Crown.

That is expropriation without compensation and surely to God there is something within the Ruman Rights of this country or the Province that forbids this. Because if there ts not i.t looks like a coverup racket of some kind. Now the minister really has a situation here that he has to - I know he has had representation from various groups in some areas. As a matter of fact I believe he has unfrozen, if that is the word, some land perhaps even in my o~>n area. So I am certainly not criticizing him for that.

But the point is that it is being looked upon now,and perhaps unfairly - because I had certainly not said so neither privatelv nor publicly- as havin~ ~one into the political 9334

.Tunc 1, 197f>, Tape 301)2, Pnp;e 3 -- apb ~IR. NOLAN: arem, and you must be on the ri~ht side, so to speak, in order to develop. And as long as this i.s sufficiently widespread and enough people believe it, eventually it becomes a fact.

If you take, for ex<unple, the land helon~ing to say, the member for ~~illingate (Mr.Smallwood) tomorrm• and say, "He are freezing that land for farm land,' ' and Sti!Jposinp: he is living tn almost or near abject poverty, and supposing he has sixteen or t1~enty acres of land, and let us assume that someone comes and offers him a substantia) amount of money so that he can develop that land hut he cannot do it all because of a Jaw that is brought in here. We all need more and more farm land. No one is going to arp;ue with that.

But if you have th1s expropriat -ion 1~ithout compensation it 1s absolutely criminal, it i.s wrong, and I hope the minister 1•ill address himself to it. ~~ ~~EAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor-Ruchans. MR. l"LIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in the few words that I have to say I "ant to endorse the stand taken hy my colleague from Trinity-Bay de Verrle (Mr. Rowe) and my hon. friend from Conception ~ay South (Hr .Nolan) . Now, Sir, the Department of Forestry and Agriculture, the Crown Lands Division, must be the most bureaucratic division of government today.

Bureaucratic, painstaking, frustrating For anvbody who has to deal with it. There may be reasons. They may he understaffed. But I suspect it is not all understaffed. As the minister well knows there are applications sitting down in Crown Lands today that were sitting there for six months before they were registered. Now the problems come. After they are registered they have to p,o out for referrals and it is when they get into the referral stage that the time starts to be consumed.

Now if this Act or this amendment is goin~ to change or going to make it easier for people of this Province to deal ~'ith r.rown Lands, then certa:!.nly it is about time 9335

June 1, 1976, Tape 3062, Page 4 -- apb 'IR. FLIGHT: it was brought in. It is a good Act. But when the minister is closing the debate I would like for him to take a minute and tell this House why it is that it takes anywhere up to D~o or three years to get a grant, a lease or a ueed for a piece of Crown land in Newfoundland. And that is what it is taking. I have handled cases since I have been elected. After I was elected I started to move them, but they wer~ sitting tn desks in Crown Lands for six months prior to that.

And some of those applications were developments, commercial developments. livelihoods and jobs were depending on the approval of th~~ 1~n~. I cannot conceive any excuse for it. I .1ust cannot conceive anything that would require holding up this land application approval to the extent that we have proof that it is being held up. I have the same grave concern, Sir, for the freezing of land in this Province as my hon. friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) just indicated. There is land frozen in this Province today that I would presume was frozen in the name of saving agricultural land, that is rock.

You could not r,row a blueberry hush on it unless you spread sod on it, but it is frozen. It seems to me that there is a very grave danger of the government of the day, the government who extends these freezes, and insists on these freezes, being accused of manipulating land in this Province. I think the onus is on the minister to find out .1ust ~•hat justification there is for the extensive land freeze ve have and if indeed it is, as was referred to by the hon. member, expropriation without compensation, and just what purpose is being served by this.

I think it is a very dangerous way for us to go with regards to land development in this Province. I think the whole idea of land freeze in this Province should be reconsidered and reconsidered very carefully. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! '1R._ .SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. HR . SMALLWOOD: '1-lr. Speaker, I am a little unsure of 9336

~IR . SMALL\-JOOD: myself, a little uncertain in '~hltt rights I have i~ t his prese nt debate or ~h at r i~ht s any hon . member has . This i s merely an amending bill to amend in a f~ rl"lntivl"lv P~tnor Cl"snr.r.ts ;m Act (>f the T.cp,isl nturc eMctPd some tine n~o. '"lloml as the , "The n<"velopmen t /1 reas (1.1nds) Act . l f'l 71 ." ~:n~1 vhat I <0 a b it unsure abou t is , what rip.ht h~ts a MPml>£'r P.(> t •··'lPn 1\n anf!nclll'en t is \>rc:-ush t in, prol'OSP.d hy the i:<WP.l'nr.1£'nt to an existing Act, '~hnt ri.~ht hn.s a memhPr of r:.he llou~P. P.ot to rlP.al with tlu> Act that i.s amE'ndecl?

Is he confi.nerl, i.s hP lirnir:<:'d to t he amr.>.ncll'lents? And i.f he is limf.terl to thE' ronendn•Pnts rnay h<> not nlso debatP th" thinp; that is hein~ m"enrlerl? ln s!lor t , let me ~ivE' the House :m ex;unple of \olh:tt I r!'an . "SC'ct1on 4, Clause 4, T'nra~ranll (

c) of ~ection S(

l) of t hP sn\rl Act 1.« re!'E'..:J.led and the foll01dng is suhsti r:uted thPrt'for: '' The-n 1t P.OPS on and P.iVI'S the pr oposed substitution namely: ''(

c) th<" nnpl'lc:1t.~.on ~>f such Jnntls f.~>r ~t~ricultornl, r.oTI'm<>r<;.inl. Jnrlust:rwt. rPcreational., residential or other nurposcl'> . " Now thttt 111 all. It stoT's thPrc • ... 9337

June 1, 1976 Tape 3063 IB-1 MR. SMALLWOOD: I must confess, I am a bit ashamed to confess it, I do not know whether the minister :Introduced this bill with a speech. If he di.d not, :l.f he proposes merely to answer points, close the debate by answerin~ points that have been raised, then it would mean that there has not been an explanation of this amending bill. MP.__.lPODY: _ :t-'r. Speaker, there was an explanation. MR. S~~ALLWOOD: There was. Oh you mean a printed one. }')>. OOODY: No, no. The minister made a speech. ~IF. Sl'fALLHOOD: Oh, the minister did give one.

I had to go out to serve the public in another capacity, an electronic capac:l.ty and so I was absent from the Chamber and therefore did not have the pleasure of hearing the explanation. But certainly to take this amending bill as it is with such explanatory notes as appear on the right hand side is absolutely not enough explanation, not enough to make us understand what it is all about. Nuw to what extent I could go on in,as the hon. member for W:lndsor-lluchans (Mr. Flight) did, I believe the hon. member for r.onception Bay South (:t-'r.

Nolan) did, to deal withfue general overall question of land, land freezing, land use, frankly I am in doubt. T do not think I have that right. I do not th:lnk that any hon. member has the right to debate the big basic act when the p,overnrnent are proposing merely a number of relatively m:l.nor amendments. But I have to say this - and I hope, Jolr.

Speaker, that you will bear with me - I have to say that I am absolutely convinced, I do not know of auything I am more convinced about than I am convinced that the state, the central authority of Newfoundland wh:lch :Is this state, the government, must control the Queen's land. They are the Queen's ministers and all the land of this Province except insofar as some of it has been leased - well not insofar as it has been leased because it may well be leased and still belong to the Queen - but except insofar as freehold land has been put in possession of some individuals or some companies, the Queen owns all 9338

June 1, 1976 Tape 3063 IB-2 MR. SMALLWOOD: the land there is. I do not know, the lawyers may tell me that even after some fee simp]e is put into the hands of someone, a company or an organization or an irlrlividual it may still be the case that the Queen owns that land but in another sense, I do not know. But certainly what has not been granted does belong to the Queen. That is what we mean when we say the public land. The public land is the land that belongs to the Queen and the Queen cannot pe~sonally administer the land so Her ministers do it for Her. In other words, the government.

It is absolutely right and proper that the government shall administer the Queen's land and come into the House here and ask the House to make certain rules to govern the government, rules by which the government will carry out the1r function of administering the Oueen's land. I take it that that is what the Development Areas(Land~Act is about and that is what this amendment i.s about now. Now, the right of the government to freeze land is surely as basic a right as the government could possibly have.

If the government aclm1nister the Oueen's land for the Queen, then the government must have the right to give, to withhold, to lease, to sell, to freeze, to permit and not to permit the use and the kind of use that shall be made by people of the Queen's land. Surely that is as basic a right and as basic a duty as a government could have except the most basic of all which is to protect people against a foreign foe, against a foreign army.

The control of the Queen's land :Is so basic, it is so fundamental to everything else that it would be silly to question the right of the government to administer that land in the Oueen's :Interests, which means in the public interest. Now I ~o not see that this bill touches on that or :Impinges on it at all. I do not see that that principle is involved here. The principle of the bill itself, that this is to amend, is established and accepted and is now the law of this ,rovince, a law made by this 933~

June 1, 1976 Tape 3063 IB-3 MJ?. S:P-IAII.WOOD: House. And long before that law was made by this House, the principle was there anyhow, the Queen was the owner of all the land. It was the Queen of England who gave Newfoundlanders the right to have elections. It was the Queen of England,wr Her parliament in England, that gave Newfoundlanders the right to have courts of justice. It was the Oueen of England that gave some individuals land or gave Her aeent, the Governor, Her representative, the right to grant land and subsequently gave Her Government the right to grant land.

I hope nobody is calling that into question. That would indeed be loves labour lost.If a government have not got the right under law to regulate the Queen's land, then they have got no rights at all. They are not a government. Now, what all that has to do with this bill I am not sure. MR. NOLAN: Hm., about if it is not Queen's land? How about 'If it iR private l.anc't? MR.

SY-!.ALLWOOD: If it is private land the right of them in a domain is again one of the oldest principles and one of the most firmly established pri.nciples of Rritish jurisprudence, British law, llritish par] iamentary principle, Bri.tish government, the ri.ght of the government to control all land, whether privately owned, publicly owned or what. The right, the basic, underlying, underpinning r:lght of a government to regulate the use of all land surely cannot be disputed.

All land, no matter where the title may rest, whether it be with the Queen or whether it be with an individual or whether it be with a company, the actual overall control of it must be with the government, with the public authority. It cannot remain exclusi.vely with private aut