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November 24, 1986

33rd Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L068 - Mon 24 Nov 1986 / Lun 24 nov 1986

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ARTS FUNDING

TARIFFS ON SOFTWOOD LUMBER

READING MACHINES FOR THE BLIND

TARIFFS ON SOFTWOOD LUMBER

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

GRANTS TO WELLINGTON SOUTH

ORGAN DONATIONS

DEATH OF A FORMER MEMBER

MEMBER'S COMMENTS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

PAY EQUITY LEGISLATION

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

ORAL QUESTIONS

PLANT SHUTDOWNS

PAY EQUITY LEGISLATION

HIGH-TECHNOLOGY FUND

NURSING HOMES

ALCOHOL ON OPP BOAT

ADULT EDUCATION

ALCOHOL ON OPP BOAT

INSURANCE RATES

HYDRO RATES

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

STABILIZATION PAYMENTS

MUNICIPAL TAXATION

ASSISTANCE TO REFUGEES

DRUG BENEFIT FORMULARY

VISITOR

TABLING OF INFORMATION

USE OF GOVERNMENT OFFICES

PETITIONS

DAY CARE

EQUALITY RIGHTS LEGISLATION

MOTIONS

WITHDRAWAL OF BILL 68

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

PAY EQUITY ACT / LOI PORTANT ÉTABLISSEMENT DE L'ÉQUITÉ SALARIALE

SIMCOE DAY ACT

SECURITIES AMENDMENT ACT

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS IN ORDERS AND NOTICES AND RESPONSES TO PETITIONS

MOTION TO SET ASIDE ORDINARY BUSINESS

PLANT SHUTDOWNS

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ARTS FUNDING

Mrs. Marland: The persistence of the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) in proceeding, against the advice of the Bovey commission, with an amendment to the Retail Sales Act that he quite mistakenly believes will affect only international performers and commercial ventures represents nothing more than this Liberal government's continued determination to destroy the foundation, profitability and financial integrity of our arts organizations. It is an effort to ensure that our important theatre industry is more dependent on the whim of this Liberal government, the most offensive kind of patronage imaginable.

Bill 26 has serious and long-ranging consequences for every sector of our arts community. Currently, because of their charitable organization tax status, community-based and nonprofit theatres can support local volunteer concert organizations, can aid the careers of Canadian performers and can provide first-class entertainment on a regional basis across Ontario. Their contribution to the quality of life in this province is recognized by the sizeable contribution to their operating budgets provided by every municipal taxpayer in this province annually.

Now, because the Treasurer misunderstands the operation of theatres such as the O'Keefe Centre, Roy Thomson Hall, the arts centre in Ottawa, the Centre in the Square in Kitchener and the Thunder Bay Community Auditorium, the profitability and financial integrity of these important institutions are jeopardized.

TARIFFS ON SOFTWOOD LUMBER

Mr. Wildman: I rise to bring to the House's attention another deadline I hope this government will not miss, as it did the November 3 deadline, for filing an intervention with regard to the softwood lumber countervail tariff. This government missed the deadline on November 3 and, as a result, cannot make an intervention in the appeal process; at least it cannot speak before the commission. However, there is another deadline, this Friday, that will make it possible for this government to file at least a written intervention.

There are large numbers of layoffs occurring throughout northern Ontario as a result of the imposition of the 15 per cent countervail tariff. It is imperative, particularly now that the Premier (Mr. Peterson) has failed in his attempt to win over the other Premiers and the Prime Minister of this country to the position that we should be fighting the countervail, for this province to make a presentation on behalf of the producers and the workers of this province separately from whatever action the federal government takes on behalf of this country.

If we do not make a presentation indicating that we are not prepared to have our stumpage fees decided in Washington, DC, then we are opening the way for this country to move to a situation where the Americans will decide all our ways of dealing with private industry in this province. It is imperative that this government make the deadline.

READING MACHINES FOR THE BLIND

Mr. Newman: I had the opportunity earlier this year of attending the convention of the National Council of State Legislatures in New Orleans, where I noticed the use of reading machines to assist blind and visually impaired individuals. In 1985, the Texas legislature enacted legislation to place 70 reading machines in public and college libraries serving blind and visually-impaired patrons. In 1979 and 1981, New York and New Jersey did similar things.

The advantages of placing reading machines in libraries are many. It provides the cornerstone for a resource room serving the blind. It allows instant access to books, periodicals and reference materials. It enables blind patrons to convert print to Braille and encourages blind schoolchildren, employed adults and retirees to use public libraries independently. It enhances career training and independent research among the blind. It provides access to information for the learning-disabled. It enables adults in literacy programs to keep up with printed information.

I suggest that Ontario look very closely at the possibility of introducing reading machines in public libraries and college and university libraries for the service of the visually impaired.

TARIFFS ON SOFTWOOD LUMBER

Mr. Pierce: I want to address the House again today concerning the mismanagement of the softwood lumber tariff by the Liberal government. The Premier and his government failed to take action months ago before the tariff issue blew up and left northern Ontario in the fallout. It was not until the Progressive Conservative Party began raising the issue in the Legislature and called an emergency debate that the Liberal government started to notice there was a problem.

This government should have been in Washington months ago pointing out the differences in Ontario's lumber industry compared to the major provincial lumber producers. Ontario's uniqueness should have been made known. The responsibility for making the Americans aware of Ontario's uniqueness does not fall on the shoulders of the federal government. The responsibility of providing the Americans with information on Ontario's lumber industry is totally the responsibility of the provincial government.

It has become more and more apparent that this part-time Minister of Northern Development and Mines (Mr. Peterson) is not addressing the needs of the northern industries and, in particular, those that relate to the softwood lumber industry.

The Premier's words in Vancouver this past weekend will not bring back the 900 jobs already lost in northern Ontario, nor will they save the jobs that were lost and will be lost in the future. The first ministers were not prepared to accept Ontario's proposal to go the full legal route in protecting our lumber industry. What is the Premier now going to do to protect the lumber industry in Ontario?

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

Mr. R. F. Johnston: I rise to inform the House today that the social assistance review committee that has been going around the province is this week holding its important meetings here in Toronto.

It will be receiving here, as it has elsewhere, poignant testimony from recipients of our social assistance system and a lot of solid analysis of what is wrong, reconfirming the alarming poverty in which many people live, the glaring inequities between classes of recipients, the social stigmatization that our present system has placed on them and the future of hopelessness for those children of the poor that we have left them, as well as an appeal system which is totally inadequate for the purposes.

We held workshops in my riding on October 18, and a number of participants will be making presentations to the commission at the end of this week. I hope other members will assist the poor in their areas to get their views before the committee as well.

Although Mr. Thomson has been called visionary in a recent article, I am a little concerned that many members of the committee are now talking about having to be very practical and consider the realities that a government's expectations may place on them. I hope this government will follow our lead and say it is a time for vision, a time for a total overhaul of the system, and that soon the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Sweeney) will make some announcements in this House to change some of the inequities in this system, giving a sign to Mr. Thomson's committee that all is possible in Ontario for change. They do not have to be restrictive at all.

GRANTS TO WELLINGTON SOUTH

Mr. Ferraro: I rise to thank two ministers on behalf of my constituency, specifically the Minister of Citizenship and Culture (Ms. Munro) for recently announcing $96,000 for a library in the township of Puslinch and the Minister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. Eakins) for the Wintario grant of $100,000 that will assist in the building of a community gymnastic facility.

I was inundated by comments from my constituents. In many cases, we have not had anything like these two announcements in Wellington South in well over 30 years, possibly 42 years. Therefore, I am grateful to both ministers.

ORGAN DONATIONS

Mr. Andrewes: Melissa Mendoza died at the age of 17 months suffering from biliary atresia, a condition that causes bile to build up in the blood, a condition that could have been treated if a satisfactory human liver could have been located for transplantation.

Melissa had been on a waiting list for more than four months. Her doctor suggested that too often physicians fail to ask for organ donations or are too busy in the hustle and bustle of providing excellent treatment to pose these questions. However, grieving relatives are often unaware that organ donations are needed and that the tragedy of the moment might be lessened in some positive way.

As community leaders, we should seize on the example that Melissa's death has provided to develop through our education system and other forums a social conscience in support of organ donations. As there is dignity and purpose in life, so too is there in death, where life can be offered to another human, thus creating an opportunity for that person to complete his own commitment.

Mr. Grossman: Mr Speaker, perhaps with your indulgence and that of the government House leader, I might ask that we be given an opportunity to comment upon the passing of the former Attorney General, Arthur Wishart. Would this be an appropriate time?

Mr. Speaker: It certainly would be the appropriate time.

DEATH OF A FORMER MEMBER

Mr. Grossman: The province learned with some sadness this morning of the passing of someone who was, I believe, among the too few people who really leave behind a large reputation and a mark on this assembly, in this case the Honourable Arthur Wishart, former Attorney General, former Minister of Financial and Commercial Affairs and former government House leader.

Mr Wishart was suddenly and unexpectedly taken from the back benches and put on the front benches, as the government House leader will remember, and was suddenly appointed Attorney General when many people were expecting someone else to get that appointment. He surprised most members of the assembly, and the public perhaps, with some major achievements and by bringing an important degree of humility, common sense and real decency to the job.

He was one of those people who have enormous numbers of friends throughout the assembly from all three parties. He could note among his achievements the passing of the first Legal Aid Act, the Law Enforcement Compensation Act. He served later as chairman of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board and was the first chairman of the Commission on Election Contributions and Expenses.

After leaving political life, he served as a trustee of Algoma University College and remained throughout all that time someone who was looked to by many members of the House as a great symbol of a bit of the transition that this Legislature went through from the early 1960s into the 1970s, as he retained very strong roots in his community and a very appropriate view on life in Ontario, while also proving to be quite a progressive and reform-minded Attorney General.

In closing, I thought it would be interesting to reflect back on the fact that, among the responsibilities that fell to him, he found occasion to release Morton Shulman from the post of chief Metro coroner. At that time, Dr. Shulman said, "If you want to dislike Arthur Wishart, you have to keep away from him." That says a great deal about the former Attorney General.

On this day, I would ask all members of the House to join with us in expressing our condolences to Mr Wishart's family and to all of the people of Sault Ste.

Marie, who had a very special attachment to someone they considered far more than their member and their MPP; someone they considered a genuine friend and a real believer in what their own community was all about; someone who served above and beyond their own community in a very special way; in my view, in many ways unmatched in terms of his breadth of understanding, decency, common sense, sense of humour and likeability, an unusual and unique combination of assets that served the people of Sault Ste. Marie and Ontario and the people of this Legislature extremely well.

We extend our condolences to his family.

Hon. Mr. Scott: It falls to me on behalf of the government to signify that our party joins with the Leader of the Opposition in the remarks he has made today about the death of Arthur Wishart. He was a member of this House for almost 10 years, where he served with distinction, representing his friends and neighbours in Sault Ste. Marie.

Beyond that, he was a minister of the crown and a particularly distinguished Attorney General of the province. Taking office at a time of some difficulty, he ensured the office maintained the lustre it had before him. He left it a more important place than it was when he entered it. Even today, there are senior members of the staff of the Ministry of the Attorney General who are shocked and saddened by the knowledge of his death, but who are warmed by the recollection of his presence and the very real contribution he made to the administration of justice in the province.

As the Leader of the Opposition has said, to those who knew him Arthur Wishart was above all a decent and thoroughly honourable man. He could be an active and aggressive politician in the best tradition of this assembly, but at base, his honour, his integrity and his respect to his colleagues inside and outside the House were profound and important to him.

If I may add a personal note, when I was called to the bar in 1959 I went to practise law with Andrew Brewin, QC, a distinguished member of the New Democratic Party. One of my first assignments was to take cases that Arthur Wishart sent down from Sault Ste. Marie. I never quite figured out why he sent them to Andrew Brewin, but I think he did because he saw in Andrew Brewin those qualities he sought for himself, qualities of honour and decency, and which he so markedly achieved.

He was a taskmaster of very modest proportions. All the mistakes I made in the first few years of practice, which perhaps his office or clients were required to pay for, were always noted but very quickly forgiven. For my own part and my party, we regret the death of a distinguished and honourable Ontario citizen, but are cheered and strengthened by the example of his life.

Mr. Martel: I want to join with my colleagues who have already spoken. I guess I am the last in this caucus to have served directly with Arthur Wishart. He was a man before his time. I realized a few years ago that Arthur was one of a rare breed of cabinet ministers who would accept an amendment even in a majority government. I think it floored most of his colleagues in his own cabinet that he would accept an amendment from an opposition member of this Legislature. Those of us who witnessed that got beyond knowing Wishart as an individual sitting across the way but as a human being.

We had an opportunity to speak with him on many occasions. He enjoyed what he was doing. One could go over to see him in his office. He always had a sense of humour. He was always willing to help. He never lost his love of the north. I remember Arthur Wishart chairing the committee that helped us save our suds in the north. Arthur was the individual who studied that and made recommendations which the government adhered to; otherwise, our suds industry in the north would have been wiped out.

He had a uniqueness about him of being able to get quickly to a problem with a very sensible and sensitive recommendation. I do not think I can ever recall Arthur Wishart trying to belittle or put anyone down. He did it in a political way. That is fair game in here, but he never resorted to anything of a personal nature. That is why so many of us were so fond of him.

My colleague the member for Algoma (Mr. Wildman) tells me Mr. Wishart had suffered an accident a couple of years ago and had never recovered from the seriousness of that accident. I want to say that those of us who were indeed fortunate enough to know him will miss him. On behalf of our party, I would like to extend condolences to the Wishart family.

13:50

Mr. Morin-Strom: I would appreciate saying a few remarks as well on behalf of the citizens of Sault Ste. Marie.

It is a sad day for our community, but it is a day on which we can remember the many years of dedicated service that Mr. Wishart provided to this province and to the city of Sault Ste. Marie. We are much richer for those memories and for the actions he took on behalf of our community, as a member of the government of Ontario and as a member of the cabinet in the 1960s and into the early 1970s. His years of dedicated service as a lawyer in the community preceding that were of great significance to Sault Ste. Marie.

Although he was not a Sault native, he spent the vast majority of his years in the Sault. He was born in New Brunswick but came to the Sault relatively early in his legal career. After having been the mayor of Blind River for a short period during the Depression and after about 25 years of legal service, he was elected as the representative for Sault Ste. Marie and served a term of nearly 10 years. Particularly noteworthy is the work he did on behalf of Algoma University College in Sault Ste. Marie. It was pleasing that he was remembered very recently with a tribute to him in the renaming of the library of that college as the Arthur Wishart Library.

One story that comes to mind regarding Mr. Wishart goes back to his years as the mayor of Blind River during the Depression. He was asked about a contract for highway construction in the community of Blind River. He was concerned because they were going to use machines for the building of the road instead of using more intensive manpower. The contractor from southern Ontario said: "What do you expect? Do you think we should use shovels instead of machines?" Mr. Wishart's reply was: "No. I would hope you would use spoons."

Mr. Wishart provided a tremendous service to our community. On behalf of the residents of Sault Ste. Marie, I want to express our appreciation for those years of service. We very much appreciate the fine comments made on his behalf today in the Legislature.

Mr. Speaker: I will make certain a copy of today's Hansard is received by the Wishart family so they are fully aware of the words of sympathy spoken here today.

MEMBER'S COMMENTS

Hon. Mr. Nixon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: You will recall that on Thursday afternoon you had reason to dismiss the member for Ottawa Centre (Ms. Gigantes) from the House for calling another member a liar. The honourable member who was the recipient of the insult was not present at the time. I want to point out that the member for Ottawa Centre has taken her seat without making any attempt to withdraw the comment.

We have had this discussion before. It is quite easy for people to say it is a matter of little or no importance and the fact she was suspended from the House for the rest of that sitting was sufficient. However, I bring to your attention, sir, that the fact there has been no withdrawal means she is continuing to do the business of the House as a member in the presence of another member whom she said is a liar.

It is strange; that is a particularly unacceptable insult in this House. In my view, it is impossible for a member who has been designated as a liar by another member to continue in any sensible and reasonable way to go forward with the business.

I am not speaking for either of the members, obviously. I am simply speaking as a member of this House, and I say to you again, sir, and to all members that there is good reason for the requirement that this epithet not be used; that is, it is impossible to continue the business of the House following its use with the expectation that the statement is going to be acceptable and that it is going to form a part of the record of this Legislature.

There is not much I can do about it singlehandedly, other than to continue to raise it when it happens. That the honourable member was dismissed from the House for a few hours following her use of the epithet has little or nothing to do with the case. My own view is that an honourable member, on reviewing the whole situation, should simply come into the House and withdraw the statement; then we could go on with the business. If it is not withdrawn, the implication is that the person believes another member to be a liar, and that is unacceptable in this chamber.

Mr. McClellan: The member for Brant-Oxford-Norfolk (Mr. Nixon) is well known for the views he holds on this matter, and he has raised the point he raises this afternoon a number of times in the past, certainly since I was elected to this House. Regardless of the general interest with which we all hold his views, they have little to do with the standing orders or the practices and traditions of this House.

I understand the member was found to be in violation of standing order 19(10). The provisions of the standing orders as set out in standing order 21(

b) are very clear:

"When a member is named by the Speaker, if the offence is a minor one, the Speaker may order the member to withdraw for the balance of the day's sittings; but if the matter appears to the Speaker to be of a more serious nature, he shall put the question on motion being made, no amendment, adjournment or debate being allowed, `that such member be suspended from the service of the House,' such suspension being for any time stated in the motion not exceeding two weeks."

Obviously, Mr. Speaker, you ruled at our last sitting that the offence was a minor one and that the member was suspended for the balance of the day's sitting. That is exactly what happened. In the past, when the member for Brant-Oxford-Norfolk has raised this point, he has not been upheld; he should not be upheld this afternoon.

Mr. Speaker: I have listened very carefully to the two members who have spoken. As in the past, this matter has been brought to the attention of the House very firmly. I believe it has previously gone to the standing committee on procedural affairs. To my knowledge, there has been no recommendation for any particular change in the standing orders. If it is the wish of the House that this matter be reviewed by the standing committee on the legislative assembly, that certainly is in order. However, according to the present standing orders, I have no choice other than to name a member for the balance of the sitting on that particular day.

13:58

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

PAY EQUITY LEGISLATION

Hon. Mr. Scott: It is an honour for me to introduce in the assembly today pay equity legislation for the private and broader public sectors.

As every honourable member will recognize, one of the most significant social developments of our time, almost a revolution, has been the changing role of women and in particular their contribution in the work place.

In just 20 years, the full-time work force in Ontario has almost doubled, to 44 per cent of the total work force. Within a decade, more than half the full-time work force in Ontario will be women. These women are not now and perhaps never were secondary wage earners. In fact, almost half of them are the sole support of themselves and their families. Almost 90 per cent of single-parent families in Ontario are headed by women who need and want to work.

However, in spite of their rapidly increasing numbers over the past two decades, women are still clustered in a small number of occupations. In spite of their achievements, they still take home only 64 cents for every dollar earned by men. When you think about women's achievements, when you see their sheer numbers in the work force, you would expect to see corresponding progress in the way in which they have been compensated. Sadly, this has not been the case.

14:00

Whether it is because of so-called market forces or whether it is because of conscious or unconscious discrimination, the fact remains that the kind of work women do has been undervalued compared with jobs traditionally performed by men. We know that time alone cannot remedy, because it has not remedied that situation, and that good intentions are not enough. For example, in 17 years the wage gap has decreased by only four per cent.

This government recognizes that the solution to the problem cannot be simplistic. A number of different responses are required. Education will play a part, as will training and employment equity and child care, but pay equity is and will remain a very important, indeed a central part, of the solution. It alone can address the issue of gender-based pay discrimination in the private and broader public sectors and the impact of this discrimination on pay practices.

Since we tabled the green paper on pay equity in this House last November, we have consulted with many groups and individuals. We have talked to women, to labour and to business. We held a series of public consultations. We formed two advisory groups, one labour and one business. Through these discussions, we gained a deal of insight about how pay equity legislation could be implemented and what its effects would be. Those consultations will continue as the bill moves through the legislative process.

What we learned from our consultations reaffirmed our belief that so-called women's work was being undervalued. While various presenters may have argued about the way in which the wage gap should be corrected, there was nevertheless a consensus that it should be corrected.

In addition, we learned that the public and the interest groups shared a view that the legislation should be implemented in a fiscally responsible, fair and judicious manner, responding both to the needs of the women who have been subsidizing our economy for too long and to the needs of modern business to be competitive at home and abroad.

In this regard, we have developed a self-managed implementation approach that will make sure the bill is enforced effectively while minimizing the bureaucracy.

I would like to take the members to the highlights of the legislation.

First, the bill will cover all employees in the broader public sector, which includes municipalities, school boards, universities and hospitals. It also covers all employers in private sector firms with 10 or more workers. It will apply to both full-time and permanent part-time staff.

Second, job comparisons: Jobs being performed primarily by women will be compared to jobs held primarily by men. To be eligible for comparison, a job category in general must be 60 per cent female-dominated or 70 per cent male-dominated. Comparisons will be made in an employer's own establishment; in other words, comparisons will not be made between wages paid by one employer and those paid by another.

Third, method of implementation: The legislation places the onus on both employers and employees to ensure that pay equity is achieved. Employers, and bargaining agents if applicable, will first be required to review workers' salaries and identify any pay inequities for female-dominated job categories. Pay equity wage adjustments must then be made to compensate those underpaid employees.

The development of a pay equity plan prior to wage adjustment is mandatory for all employers in the broader public sector and for employers with more than 100 employees in the private sector. These plans must be posted in the work place. A plan is not mandatory, but optional, for private sector firms with 10 to 99 employees. Nevertheless, these employers will be expected to make wage adjustments too if pay inequities exist.

Fourth, the timetable: Since the mandate we believe the public has given us is to balance women's economic needs with the realities of the business environment, this legislation will be implemented in a staged process based on the size of the organization. It will be implemented first in the broader public sector. Second, in the private sector it will be phased in in deliberate steps in order that we may learn from our experience as the legislation is implemented.

It is interesting to note that when wage adjustments are started in the broader public sector and among those private employers with more than 500 employees, in three years from proclamation 60 per cent of the female work force will be covered.

Fifth, the Pay Equity Commission: A Pay Equity Commission will be established to administer and monitor the implementation of the legislation. It will provide specialized educational materials and consultative services to those affected by it. For example, it will give guidance to small business people who may be unfamiliar with even the simplest job comparison techniques. It will also conduct an educational campaign to inform employers and employees of the rights and responsibilities under the legislation.

If there are complaints from employees, review officers from the commission will investigate them. Complaints that cannot be resolved at this level will be referred to the commissioners for a hearing. The commission may order compliance and impose fines.

Sixth, pay equity adjustments: Employers will not be required to adjust wages annually above one per cent of the previous year's total payroll, but these adjustments to wages of male and female workers in female-dominated job categories will continue to be made until the goals of the pay equity plan have been met. No employee's wages can be reduced to achieve pay equity.

One of the important requirements of this legislation is to ensure that the lowest-paid women receive compensation adjustments as quickly as possible.

Section 12 of the bill addresses this problem by creating fast-track payouts for such job classes.

Seventh, allowable wage differences: Certain differences in pay for jobs of comparable value will be allowed, but employers must be prepared to justify them and to prove they are not a function of gender bias. Allowable differences would be those resulting from seniority, temporary training assignments, merit pay, red-circling and skills shortages.

Eighth, job value: Employers will rely on the job comparison method of their choice to compare their employees' jobs. Methods must be free of gender discrimination, however, and the criteria for job comparisons must include, at least, skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions.

Finally, unionized work places: In unionized work places where a pay equity plan is mandatory, the plan will be negotiated by the employer and the union as part of the collective bargaining process. If agreement cannot be reached, the Pay Equity Commission is available to resolve the issue. Within the parameters defined in the legislation, there will be issues that employers and their unions will negotiate. These may include methods of comparing jobs, whether a job is male-dominated or female-dominated and the rates at which wage adjustments can be paid out.

We realize some Ontario workers may find themselves without a comparison group because they are in a work place that is totally female. Let us take child care workers as an example. Child care workers in municipalities will have male comparison groups, but those in small nonprofit child care centres may be working in an all-female establishment. The bill, which was drafted as gender-based antidiscrimination legislation, will not assist the latter group, whose work has been undervalued and underpaid for too long.

This is a serious problem which must be addressed, and I am therefore proposing that this issue be examined on an urgent basis as soon as the Pay Equity Commission is established. I will require that the Pay Equity Commission act quickly so that any undervalued workers without job comparison groups can receive wage adjustments on the same timetable as other workers in establishments of the same size.

In conclusion, this is truly an important day for the women and men of Ontario. We believe fundamentally that the work women do in offices, stores, hospitals and schools across our province is valuable, not only to those businesses but also to society as a whole. We believe the time has come to assure that gender discrimination, conscious or unconscious, has no place in our society or in our work places.

14:10

The pay equity plan for which I seek the honourable members' approval is a serious commitment to reform. It specifies clearly the exact change to be achieved, namely, the removal of gender discrimination in pay practices in our province. We believe the bill is clear in intention, flexible, nonarbitrary in execution and effective in result.

There will be objections, but I believe there is none that cannot be answered by logic or accumulating experience. In assessing those objections, we will have to distinguish between appealing rhetoric and solid progress based on careful planning. The purpose of this plan is not to do the impossible but to ensure the possible.

I am honoured to have the opportunity to introduce this legislation today. I do so in the firm belief that it is another major step on the road to economic equality for women, a goal that will benefit us all.

Mr. Gillies: With regard to the statement made by the minister responsible for women's issues on his announced legislation, we would like to point out a couple of things. While time does not allow for a detailed critique of the legislation now, a number of questions remain to be answered and we see a number of flaws and inadequacies in the bill.

The first question is in regard to the time, the 25 hours plus spent by the justice committee, which was 100 per cent of the justice committee's time in the past month, on amending and improving Bill 105. The government has to decide what it intends to do with Bill 105. At least in the estimation of our party, that bill, as amended in terms of the broad public sector, does a better, more comprehensive and more effective job of bringing pay equity to the broad public sector than does the bill he has introduced today.

If the government decides not to proceed with Bill 105, we will, of course, be disappointed. We will be especially disappointed, to be charitable, about some of the procedural tactics exercised by that party during those hours of debate. However, if it chooses not to proceed with that legislation, we hope it will at least proceed in very short order to proclaim pay equity in the narrow public service for its own employees by regulation, which we believe it can do.

The legislation brought forward by the minister today is flawed in a number of respects. He himself has touched on one of the larger problems, that this bill will do nothing for women employed in private sector work places that are almost entirely female, the 65 per cent of female employees in the private sector who work as child care workers, as librarians, in nursing homes, in rape crisis centres and in transition homes, and in all those other types of work places where there will be no opportunity to compare their wages against any comparable group of males.

That is a problem not for later resolution by the commissioner but resolution now by effective legislation.

The gender predominance feature of this bill, the 60 per cent and 70 per cent features that we struck out of Bill 105, remain in this legislation. We believe it is a flawed concept that allows for employers who so wish to manipulate their work forces to avoid the legislation. We say the 60 per cent and 70 per cent should go. That will be a particular problem in small work place establishments.

We believe the phase-in period is inadequate. The amount of time the government is proposing to take is another problem. Under Bill 105, as amended by the opposition parties, we believe equal pay for work of equal value would have been achieved in five years. One can make one per cent increments for many years under this legislation and still not achieve equal pay for work of equal value. The bill is flawed and is in need of very considerable amendment.

Mr. Rae: In regard to the statement made about pay equity, I want to say to the government and to the minister we look forward to the introduction of this bill for second reading, we look forward to its going to committee and we look forward more than anything else to a different attitude from this government on the rights of the majority of this Legislature to amend legislation it is bringing down. The attitude that says, "It is our way or the doorway," has to change. This government has to understand that this legislation is not perfect -- no legislation is -- but it sets out a framework that we believe has to have some changes made to it.

I want to discuss those changes with you, Mr. Speaker, and I want to say to the Attorney General, now that he is sitting down again, the government's attitude that it is not prepared to discuss changes of any significance is an attitude that has to change. The Attorney General is shaking his head. That is precisely the attitude he took with Bill 105 and precisely the attitude that has been taken --

Hon. Mr. Scott: I never said any such thing.

Mr. Rae: The Attorney General can dish it out but he cannot take it. He can just sit down and wait his turn. He will get a chance to reply. He has had his press conference and his chance to speak to the press. He should now give us an opportunity to respond, which is what we are doing.

There is a question here. Half the women in the province will not be covered by 1990. By that year, 50 per cent of the women in this province will still not have equal pay, and there are literally tens of thousands of women who will never be protected by equal pay legislation, because the Liberal Party is determined to exclude them.

Those are two issues this House has a right and an obligation to deal with and to face up to. If this Legislature decides to make changes, the government can no longer say, "Then you are not going to get any bill at all." We are determined that this Legislature is going to produce equal pay legislation that will put money into women's pockets now, not in 1990, not in 1995, but today. We can afford to do it.

Ms. Gigantes: I have a few more words on the subject of the proposed legislation affecting equal pay for women in Ontario. I want to raise the additional point, which has become a very touchy point in this Legislature, about who is to pay for equal pay in Ontario.

The fact is that the proposal before us would call upon the working men and working women of this province to pay for equal pay adjustments for the women of this province, and there is nothing in the legislation that would ensure that equal pay adjustments being given to the women of this province would not be coming out of their own general annual wage increases. That is something we have to look to in this legislation.

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

Hon. Mr. Riddell: I am delighted that two previous members of the Legislature, Bill Hodgson and Michael Cassidy, whom I spotted in the gallery a few minutes ago, have come to hear the glad tidings this government continues to bring to the agriculture and food sector of this province.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, the needs of the agricultural community are constantly changing; so our programs must change as well.

One of our first acts as a government was to institute our short-term family farm interest rate reduction program, co mmonly known as OFFIRR. It has meant $45.6 million to 9,500 farm families across the province.

Earlier this year, we introduced a follow-up program. Our new offer is one of more assistance to more people for a longer period. In total, we committed nearly $150 million to reduce family farm interest rates over the next three years. Today I am pleased to announce some further enhancements for the Ontario family farm interest rate reduction program, a package of improvements we are calling OFFIRR Plus.

There are some very important pluses in this package. We recognize that the combination of poor commodity prices and record-breaking adverse weather conditions dealt a crippling blow to many producers in the province. Even established producers need some support to bridge this unusually difficult period. Therefore, we have broadened the eligibility for OFFIRR to deal with the economic hardship Ontario farmers are facing right now. We are also including a one-year provision for those affected by the adverse weather we experienced this year.

Taken together with the amendments I announced earlier this year, OFFIRR Plus is expected to pay out an additional $96 million, to bring the total to $246 million over the next three years. OFFIRR Plus raises the limit on the amount of farm debt eligible for interest rate reduction by $100,000, from $260,000 to $360,000. We are also opening up the program to more farmers. We are increasing the net worth level at which benefits begin to reduce from $500,000 to $750,000. We expect 18,000 farmers to apply for OFFIRR Plus.

There is another plus to OFFIRR Plus for those taking

part in Ontario's beginning farmer assistance program. The requirements have been changed to provide increased benefits to beginning farmers. The maximum eligible debt under OFFIRR will no longer be reduced by one dollar for every dollar that is covered under the beginning farmer assistance program.

Most farmers in Ontario are being hurt by low prices, but for some, 1986 dealt them a double blow. Earlier this summer, I toured areas throughout the province that had been devastated by rain and hail. I promised I would study all possible ways I might help the farm people beaten up by Mother Nature.

Therefore, we are including a one-year provision for those affected by the adverse weather we experienced this year. For eligible producers who suffered a crop loss in excess of 30 per cent, OFFIRR Plus provides adverse weather assistance. This can reduce interest by an additional eight percentage points on debts equal to the value of crop losses over 30 per cent to a maximum of $250,000. In most cases, this would mean interest costs cut back to zero.

This adverse weather provision means an eligible producer can receive $20,000 in benefits in addition to the OFFIRR rebate if more than 30 per cent of the crop has been lost. We expect to help out 3,000 to 4,000 producers with about $10 million in compensation for bad weather. The weather provision benefits do not affect crop insurance coverage, and participation in crop insurance programs is not a factor in deciding who is eligible or in establishing the amount of assistance.

Mr. Stevenson: In response to the statement by the Minister of Agriculture and Food on OFFIRR Plus, it is conceivable that this program may be a plus, but it is very clear that the minister's understanding of the financial needs of farmers in Ontario is a minus. As a result, basically what we have ended up with here is a big zero.

The government does not yet seem to understand that between its first and second budgets a whole new ball game in North American agricultural funding started. They have responded to that with the lowest increase in agricultural funding in any of the past three budgets. At the same time as Saskatchewan increased its budget by 100 per cent in one year and Alberta by 75 per cent in this current year, here in Ontario we have a 13 per cent increase at a time when, as I say, funding to agriculture has entered a whole new era.

We are still tinkering with existing programs at a time when Canada and Ontario need a bold new approach to handling the agricultural issue in this country. Even more imperative is the fact that the Americans get half of the money they get up front, while most of our farmers applying for this program will not have the money in their pockets before the next crop goes into the ground.

Mr. Hayes: I would like to make a comment dealing with the OFFIRR Plus program. As my colleague along here somewhere said, this is an offer that some cannot refuse.

It is a step in the right direction to meet the immediate and short-term needs of farmers today, but the one thing that still bothers me is that today's announcement does not take care of those people who are working at off-farm jobs. These people have been excluded in the past from taking advantage of the OFFIRR program to meet some of their needs and to reduce their capital costs. I am hoping the minister will take that into consideration. When these people who have to work at off-farm jobs have applied for the OFFIRR program, they have been considered not to be full-time farmers.

That is hardly fair, when one sees the sacrifices they make to go to these other jobs to help finance the farm operation.

I hope the Minister of Agriculture and Food will take another look at that part of this program.

14:26

ORAL QUESTIONS

PLANT SHUTDOWNS

Mr. Grossman: I have a question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. Can he tell us the profit margin of the Goodyear plant in Etobicoke?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: We have reviewed those figures briefly but are waiting for further details. We did meet this morning with the president and chief executive officer of Goodyear Canada and we will be meeting tomorrow with some of Goodyear's top officials, who will be coming in from Akron, Ohio.

Mr. Grossman: When the minister met with the president this morning, I am sure the president indicated the Goodyear plant was profitable or that it was not profitable. Can the minister share with the House what he was told about the profitability of the operation?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: The president of the Canadian corporation mentioned Goodyear had been part of a takeover bid by a foreign concern and that because of the high equity debt it would have, it would have to look again at some of its operations throughout the world. Again, we will be looking for clarification on that tomorrow from the people from the United States.

Mr. Grossman: There are 1,500 workers who believe what they are told when they hear the operation has been a profitable one. The minister is facing 1,500 job losses in the west end of this municipality. Can he tell us today, three days after the announcement, whether that operation is a profitable one or whether it is not? That is the simple question. By this afternoon he should know whether that is a profit-making enterprise. Is it or is it not?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: If the member were to look at the figures, he would see that the operation appears to be a profitable one. We will be asking for further details and confirmation of those facts tomorrow when we meet with those officials.

Mr. Rae: That is the kind of lousy answer the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) used to give.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Grossman: My second question is also for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. If it is a profitable operation, would the minister explain why members of his government have the slightest reservation in standing up today and saying right away that they will spend whatever moneys are necessary to keep a profitable operation in place in the west end of this municipality? In what circumstances would the minister do that?

Mr. Breaugh: This is a deeply religious moment.

Mr. Gillies: What do you think we did with Massey-Ferguson? We did it. Why can't they?

Mr. Martel: Another socialist conversion.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Once again, I will just wait.

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: I am sorry. I did not hear the last part of that question.

14:30

Mr. Grossman: I want to restate the question for the minister. If this is a profitable operation, can the minister explain to us why, having spent $45 million in loans and $10 million in grants to Suzuki and $35 million in loans and $15 million in grants to Toyota, he would have any reservation whatsoever about giving a great deal of money to keep this profitable operation open?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: First of all, we regret very much the decision of that company to close that plant or to talk about closing it. We are very concerned about the job losses that are going to happen there. In our discussions this morning with the president and the chief financial officers, we touched on the subject of some type of money help, either to keep that plant going or for a new plant location. Those discussions will go on tomorrow.

Mr. Grossman: What the 1,500 workers want to know is something very simple. The minister has spent $55 million for Suzuki and he has laid out $50 million for Toyota. The 1,500 laid-off workers simply want to know whether he is prepared to give a commitment to spend money to keep open a profitable plant. The answer is simple. Either the minister is prepared to do it or he is not. Which is it?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: We are prepared to look at all alternatives.

Mr. Grossman: I wonder whether the minister is prepared to share with the House this afternoon the reasons his leader stated on April 11, 1985, in a visit to the Burns Meats Ltd. plant, which had also been closed, that, as I am sure the minister will recall, a government formed by him would: (1) require mandatory corporate consultation; (2) amend the Employment Standards Act to provide mandatory severance pay for all employees who were employed more than one year; (3) remove the 26 weeks' severance pay ceiling; and (4) provide interim funding until private financing or worker equity can be raised to save profitable operations.

Can the minister explain why, 18 months after that visit to this closed plant, his government has refused to move on any one of those four things, all four of which would have helped the 1,500 laid-off workers at Goodyear?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: The Leader of the Opposition seems to think he is the only one who has concern about any workers laid off in this province. Our Premier (Mr. Peterson) and this government are also very worried about any layoffs, and we intend to do what we can to keep them working.

Mr. Rae: I have a question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. The reality is that the casino economy of which his party and the other party to my right are such able apologists has victimized 1,500 workers at the same time as $93 million in profit is going to Sir James Goldsmith, who simply purchased shares and then had them bought out. If that is not an example of an economy that has lost its sense of moral integrity, I do not know what is.

Why has the government not introduced any kind of legislation with respect to plant closure in terms of justification, information, some kind of leverage over these companies that trade in chips -- blue chips and other chips -- and people's lives? When is the minister going to introduce legislation which will finally mean that when he meets with the president of a corporation he will not be cap in hand but able to do something about it?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: I do not believe we went cap in hand to them at all. I was very upset, as were the other members of this government, when we found out through the news releases on Friday afternoon that they planned to have this closure. We called the president and told him we wanted to speak to him this morning. We have also told the people from the United States that we wanted to talk to them not later this week or next week, but tomorrow.

I also do not appreciate people being laid off because of corporate takeovers. We will examine this matter very closely and deal with it as we see it.

Mr. Rae: Let us see what the minister is prepared to do about this casino economy. This is a casino economy in which $2.6 billion has been expended in an utterly worthless economic activity, trying to take over a company and then fighting the takeover. The victims, the people who are paying the price for that worthless economy, for which those people over there have been such effective apologists for so many years, are the workers.

My question again, specifically to the minister, is why does he not have any kind of legislation with respect to plant closures requiring justification, requiring any kind of protection for the workers, so that when he talks to these companies he is not simply down on his knees but is able to do something for the workers other than simply going there and asking, "What is going on?" He does not know what is going on because he does not have the legislation. Why does he not have the legislation?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: These are some of the matters that do concern us. As the member knows, the company has given six months' notification, but when it comes to severance and justification, those matters have not been clarified, or the reasons have not been given to us. Those are some of the questions we will be asking their officials tomorrow.

Mr. Rae: They do not even have to answer. They do not even have to tell you the time of day if they do not want to.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mrs. Grier: I do not think it is good enough for the minister merely to tell us the questions he is going to ask. What this House and the people of Lakeshore would like to hear from the minister is a commitment that he will demand from that company a public justification of the actions it has taken and that he will also be prepared to implement some kinds of adjustments that will cushion the wider community, as well as the workers, from the effects of this closure. I would like the minister to tell us now and give us a commitment that this is what he is going to do.

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: I will certainly make known to our officials and to the company officials the comments that members have made today and the questions they have raised.

Mr. Rae: Boy, if anybody has declared moral bankruptcy in this province today, it is the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. Utter powerlessness in the face of corporate greed; that is what we are looking at.

PAY EQUITY LEGISLATION

Mr. Rae: I have a question of the Attorney General, the minister responsible for women's issues, about the legislation he introduced today. Can he confirm that, as a result of the legislation the government has introduced, half the women of Ontario will not be covered by pay equity legislation by the year 1990?

Hon. Mr. Scott: I do not think that is correct. What we can say is that more than 60 per cent of the women in the work force will be covered within three years after proclamation; that is, wage adjustments will begin for them within that period.

Mr. Rae: If the minister wants a chance to change his answer, I will give him a chance, but I can tell him his answer is incorrect. His arithmetic is wrong, to put it politely, and he is leaving far more women out in the cold for a longer period of time than he has been prepared to admit in the House today.

My second supplementary to the Attorney General has to do with the fact that there is a requirement that employers set aside one per cent of payroll for equal pay when it is eventually introduced, into the 1990s. Is there anything in this legislation that would prevent an employer from systematically reducing other pay increases to meet that one per cent of payroll?

14:40

Hon. Mr. Scott: First, on the figures, and I will check to correct them, my understanding is that 60 per cent of those who are covered by the pay equity legislation --

Mr. Rae: That is not what you said.

Hon. Mr. Scott: It is precisely the same; but all right, 60 per cent of the female work force will commence adjustments by the third year of the plan. If that is incorrect, I will undertake to let the member know.

The answer to his second question is no.

Ms. Gigantes: Can we ask the Attorney General to take a look at his own green paper again to refresh his memory about how many women are going to be covered and when under this legislation? My reading of the green paper indicates that those women working in the labour force who will covered after six years of this planning process represent 49 per cent of the women in the private sector only. What the Attorney General is offering us is a piece of legislation for women in the private sector, half of whom will not see anything for six years.

Hon. Mr. Scott: Of the working women in this province, eighty five per cent are going to be covered by this bill. It is true the bill is a staged approach to the problem in the sense that wage adjustments are paid out starting at different dates and over a time. There is no other responsible approach to the problem.

In two areas where the New Democratic Party had governments, British Columbia and Manitoba, legislation for pay equity in the private sector was never introduced. When the honourable member, as she does today, says outside the House that I and this government are spineless, she will want to remember that when the NDP formed governments, did it introduce pay equity in the private sector? No, because they were gutless, and they had majorities.

Mr. Grossman: The Attorney General should have stuck to his first strategy of trying to get the member for Ottawa Centre excluded from the House so he would not have to face her questions today, rather than lose his temper, as he so often does.

HIGH-TECHNOLOGY FUND

Mr. Grossman: I have a question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. The minister will know his leader has been talking a great deal on his concern about the auto pact being renegotiated at the same time as the Goodyear plant and others are shedding employment in the auto sector, thus effectively undermining that most important sector, notwithstanding the rhetoric.

The minister will also know there has been a large announcement from his own government about what was billed as a $1-billion high-technology fund, chaired by the Premier (Mr. Peterson). As we are almost three quarters of the way through the fiscal year, with only four months left, can the minister tell us how many times the Premier's technology fund council has met and how much of the $100 million set aside for this year has been distributed so far?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: I believe the council has met on three occasions, although there have been many meetings of staff of some of the council members. At this point, only a small amount of money has flowed, basically because we want to be able to set the proper criteria before any funds do flow. We have received more than 250 applications from people who are looking for funding, but we want to make sure the criteria are properly set before the funds flow.

Mr. Grossman: The minister has inadvertently forgotten the one commitment made so far by the high-technology fund, which is $17.5 million to the Premier's associate Abe Schwartz, for Exploracom, in the heart of downtown Toronto. I remind the minister that $17.5 million is probably two or three times the value of the Goodyear plant, which is closing right under his nose in another part of this city.

Can the minister confirm the figures put out in answer to our question 397 in Orders and Notices, that out of a $100-million high-technology fund, with jobs disappearing at an incredible rate in the auto sector in particular, he has so far disbursed $114,000, in this case all of it to the university research incentive fund, and that the administrative costs are almost as large, $99,700?

Can the minister explain why, with jobs being shed all over the province, he is in a position after seven or eight months with the Premier's technology fund where he has spent $200,000, half of it in administration and not one cent to keep a job in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: As I stated, I believe those are the correct figures and that is all that has flowed from this fund. But this government plans to be a little more careful on how it disburses money than the previous government did with Suncor and the IDEA Corp.

Mr. Gillies: What a careful government. Graham Software, Wyda and Exploracom -- how careful can you get? You are careful with everybody but your buddies. They are who you should be careful with.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Windsor-Riverside (Mr. D. S. Cooke) would like to ask a question if he can get the House's attention. The member for Brantford (Mr. Gillies) might control himself, and the member for Windsor-Riverside will ask his question.

NURSING HOMES

Mr. D. S. Cooke: I have a question for the Minister of Health. I wonder whether the Minister of Health knows that 18 charges laid against the Beacon Hill nursing home in Windsor in 1984 were quashed last week by a justice of the peace, Ron Griffiths, who said, "The delay has been unreasonable and the only remedy available to the court is to quash both informations," because the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of the Attorney General had not dealt with this case in two years in the courts.

Hon. Mr. Elston: I am aware that the matter was quashed by the justice of the peace, but I can tell the honourable gentleman it was not for a lack of preparation or for not being ready. The question was delayed for some time because of the delay through the Supreme Court of decisions which the member knew were being taken on the Elm Tree matter. Those things caused considerable delay. We are in the process now of reviewing the opportunities to appeal that decision.

Mr. D. S. Cooke: The fact of the matter is that there were charges still left after the decision on Elm Tree. Some charges were withdrawn and some remained, yet still the ministry did not proceed on this court case. Does the minister not think such charges as not reporting injury, lack of adequate staffing, failure to reassess residents or failure to provide restorative care, to mention a few of the charges, are serious enough? Does the minister not understand that the owners of the nursing homes in this province are laughing at him because of his lack of action on amendments to the Nursing Homes Act? When is he going to bring in amendments and take this matter seriously?

Hon. Mr. Elston: We have taken this matter very seriously indeed. We have conducted very wide-ranging consultations with respect to the amendments to the Nursing Homes Act.

The hearing itself was scheduled to take place very soon after the Elm Tree decision came down. We are looking to appeal the dismissal of those cases because, like the member, I believe those charges are very serious infractions and ought to be dealt with. We are looking at the opportunities we have to appeal that case.

The amendments to the Nursing Homes Act, which the member had a draft of several weeks ago, are coming through the system and will be in front of this House before Christmas.

ALCOHOL ON OPP BOAT

Mr. Harris: I have a question of the Solicitor General. Last week, information came to light that the Solicitor General had broken the law and as chief law officer of the crown had ordered members of the Ontario Provincial Police to break the law. This breach took place a few days before the minister made a major statement announcing a province-wide crackdown on drinking boaters.

On Wednesday and Thursday, the minister was away and his staff refused to acknowledge where he was and refused to give us any information on the many questions we have. I presume he was reflecting on tendering his resignation. Perhaps he was off boating for four or five days. Who knows? In the light of this and in the light of the four or five days he has had to reflect, I would like to know whether he has offered his resignation while this investigation is under way.

14:50

Hon. Mr. Keyes: I am very proud to stand here and repeat what I said to the media before. I did not offer my resignation, nor do I have any intention of tendering my resignation over this issue.

If the member wants to check on where I was on Wednesday and Thursday, business must go on despite what some may raise to try to put one in a frame of mind that would not let one be productive. I do have another ministry, namely, the Ministry of Correctional Services, and I was working on some issues for that on Wednesday. On Thursday I was at St. Lawrence College speaking to the Ontario Gerontology Association, which has concerns about health care for seniors. In order to be there on time with the snowy weather we had, I was absent from this House.

Mr. Harris: Questions were raised in the Legislature on Wednesday and Thursday while the minister was away, and we have had no statement today. The Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) indicated that nobody else had been appointed to act on matters concerning this investigation and that we should go to the Solicitor General himself.

If the Solicitor General feels qualified and comfortable to answer, I want to ask him questions with regard to this investigation. Some questions that have been asked and have not been answered are: On how many occasions has the boat in question been used by the minister and other members of the cabinet? Is the minister prepared to throw out the 60 charges against the 60 people in the Kingston area charged with the same offence that the minister has admitted to? Is the minister comfortable answering those questions? Should we be dealing with him on this matter?

Hon. Mr. Keyes: My information is that the questions were answered very adequately by both the Treasurer and the Attorney General (Mr. Scott) on the two days in question. As the member knows, a report has been ordered by the Attorney General into the entire issue. When the issues that have been raised by questions are dealt with in that report, they will be made available to all members of this House.

ADULT EDUCATION

Mr. Allen: I have a question of the Minister of Education with respect to an imminent crisis in adult education that will come with the transfer of taxes from the public boards to the separate boards on January 1, 1987. The minister will know that countless numbers of both adult separate ratepayers and adult public ratepayers take their adult education from the public boards in this province.

All through the Bill 30 debate, that question was before us, and his ministry assured us that existing regulations and legislation would cover the matter. What is the minister's response now that the Metropolitan Toronto School Board has a legal decision which tells that public board, and presumably the rest of us, that public boards may not legally use public ratepayers' money to provide adult education to separate ratepayers?

Hon. Mr. Conway: I thank the honourable member for his question. He correctly recalls the circumstances of the debate in the standing committee on social development vis-à-vis Bill 30 and adult education. I have done what I said I would do, which was consult widely.

I obtained Jane Dobell, a very distinguished representative of the public school community, and asked Mrs. Dobell to prepare recommendations on the basis of her expertise and her own consultation, and she has done that. Within a very few days, certainly this week, I expect to be making a statement on this very important matter of adult education in this assembly.

It is critical how the minister is going to respond. Can he assure the House that he will not respond with a mechanism that, in effect, caps the absolute amount of grants for adult education and fosters duplication among the boards in the field of adult education; but with a mechanism that will provide reasonable compensation across the boards and not result in any adult being denied access to the programs of adult education on any board, regardless of the assessment?

Hon. Mr. Conway: In this matter, as in so many others related to school policy, I am very anxious that there not be needless duplication. I must say parenthetically to my friend the member for Hamilton West that it was with no little disappointment that I noted in the papers last week certain individuals in the school community in Metropolitan Toronto were raising this as a concern, but on the other hand, from what I could see or hear, doing very little to provide the right kind of climate for consultation and dialogue.

Mr. Davis: The minister must have 50 letters on it. He does not bother to respond to his correspondence, and he knows it.

Hon. Mr. Conway: The member for Scarborough Centre intervenes. He has not been leading the parade by way of providing advice.

My colleague the member for Hamilton West and I will well remember what the party opposite did when it was in government to continuing and adult education. It eviscerated the program. We have no interest in that kind of policy.

My colleague will be anxious to be in the House later this week to hear a statement that I hope will address all his concerns. I want to share with him the view that adult education is a very important part of public education, and we want to see it proceed in an orderly and cost-effective fashion.

ALCOHOL ON OPP BOAT

Mr. Harris: I would like to ask the Solicitor General what advice he is giving the Ontario Provincial Police about policing charges for offences similar to the one he has admitted committing this summer.

Hon. Mr. Keyes: I do not give any specific instructions to the police in regard to the matter. As the member knows, the rules are written down and they enforce them at their own discretion as they see fit.

Mr. Harris: The members of this House and the members of the public find it impossible to believe the police officers in the Ontario Provincial Police, who are charged with enforcing the laws, do not have some question about what they should be doing during this period of covered-up investigation, about which we do not know the length, who is doing it or what is going on.

Mr. Speaker: Question.

Mr. Harris: Given my comments on his previous answer, is the Attorney General aware of what is happening with those similar charges that have been laid against other people around the province, specifically those 60 people who have been charged with the same offence in the same riding in which he resides?

Hon. Mr. Keyes: In deference, the reference made by the member in his question was to the Attorney General. Perhaps his mind was thinking ahead of his mouth. Since it is a matter of the courts, it should have been directed to the Attorney General. If that is what he intends, I bow to the Attorney General. If he wishes to direct it to me, I will answer it.

INSURANCE RATES

Mr. Wildman: I have a question of the Minister of Financial Institutions regarding insurance. Is the minister aware that in my riding, in the community of Blind River, Mr. Venturi, owner of the Lincoln Hotel, who has had only three minor claims in the past and who renovated his hotel at a cost of approximately $185,000, installing new burglar alarms, fire alarms and fireproofing, had his insurance jump from $5,643 last year to $17,595, an increase of 211 per cent, when his former insurer dropped his policy and he had to go to Pafco Insurance Co.?

If the minister is aware of that kind of increase, can he indicate what on earth is being done to insure that tavern and hotel owners in this province are able to obtain affordable liability insurance so that they and members of the public are protected?

15:00

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: I am not aware of that specific incident, but I am certainly aware of many things like that, which have happened to tavern owners. I have heard from them. I can say that the Ontario liability insurers have been attempting to provide insurance for those who cannot get it or who felt they could not get it. Basically, we have been able to resolve it. As far as the cost is concerned, unfortunately that is something I cannot do anything about. The marketplace is working. There are people canvassing other markets and coming up with premiums they can deal with.

Mr. Wildman: The minister should be aware that in this case Mr. Venturi went to the Ontario liability insurers and they referred him to Pafco, which is apparently the only company in this country that is providing this kind of insurance. As long as Pafco provides insurance, even if it is at ridiculously high rates, he cannot get any assistance from the Ontario liability insurers.

Is the minister aware that Mr. Venturi and many other tavern owners like him will not be able to increase the premiums they are paying, cannot afford insurance and will operate next year, if they are not already operating, without any liability insurance? If he is aware of this, will he please tell us how many tavern owners in this province have no liability insurance? What is he going to do to ensure that not only can they obtain insurance, but also that it is affordable?

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: I disagree with the member when he says they will operate without any liability insurance. I am not aware of any tavern owner in Ontario who is operating without liability insurance. We have set up the Ontario liability insurers to cover people who cannot get insurance. If insurance is available in the marketplace -- the member says Pafco is providing it -- then the competitive forces are in action and there are companies that can meet it. That is how the system is working.

HYDRO RATES

Mr. Andrewes: My question is for the Minister of Energy. The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr. O'Neil) indicated today that the government has some concerns about corporate takeovers. We will assume those concerns can be translated into Bill 142. Since the minister withdrew Bill 142 from Orders and Notices last Thursday, we can only assume he wants some time to consider the amendment we said we would put forward. Does the minister agree that determination of Ontario Hydro's wholesale electrical rates should be made by a tribunal following a public hearing?

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: According to the member's question relating to the bill that was to be put forward, the bill was to protect consumers in Ontario. There were great difficulties in designing a bill if we were going to reach up through corporate structures to do that. The bill was designed to put a picket fence around the distributors and make absolutely certain that the distributors were protected. That is the question as it relates to the bill. If the member has another question, I will be pleased to answer it.

Mr. Andrewes: If the minister does not like the amendment we put forward, which would protect consumers from Ontario Hydro putting in place electricity rates above those that are necessary, can we be assured that he will be introducing his own amendment to require wholesale electricity rates to be set by the Ontario Energy Board?

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: It is obvious the former minister does not quite understand the system. There is great concern by this new minister that it would impact on our borrowing from other jurisdictions if we were to step in and do that. That has to be taken into account. It is a very important issue and we are examining it now. This government does not put forward a bill until it understands the complete ramifications of the bill and how it will impact on the people of Ontario.

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

Mr. Hayes: My question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Food. As the minister knows, the Ontario Institute of Agrologists has released an important report on the future of the agricultural sector. The report shows that on a dollar-to-dollar basis the American and European Community governments provide far greater assistance to farmers than Canada does. As an example, in 1986 it is estimated that Canadian assistance to barley producers is 33 cents a bushel,

whereas in the US it is $1.06 and in the European Community it is $3.11 a bushel. Given those conditions, does the minister agree that our farmers cannot compete, no matter how efficient they are?

Hon. Mr. Riddell: Our farmers have done a very good job of competing up to this point. I agree that we are caught in the cross-fire of a trade war between the United States and the European Community. It is true that about 50 per cent of the farmers' income in the United States comes by way of government subsidy. On account of this last Food Security Act, about 70 per cent of the farmers' income from the European Community comes by way of subsidy. That makes it very difficult to compete, but we are competing.

We will continue to provide programs at both federal and provincial levels to see that our farmers can remain in a competitive situation. For very obvious reasons, we do not have the treasury in this province or in this country that the United States and the European Community have.

Mr. Hayes: The minister knows price supports and financial assistance are only part of the answer. He knows people in the food production industry have had a belly full of discussion, consultation and review of these questions by government. What they need is help in the short term and a greater certainty in the long term.

Can the minister tell us today when his government will spell out to the more than 500,000 people who work in the food production sector exactly what its policy is for the long term so that they can know what to expect in the years to come and plan their futures accordingly?

Hon. Mr. Riddell: The honourable member is well aware of the fact that the national agricultural strategy was tabled at the first ministers' conference in Vancouver last week. Once again, agriculture is taking the lead because it is the first time in the history of this country that provincial and federal ministers have been able to get together to devise a national agricultural strategy so we can take our place in the global market as a country and not be competing against the treasuries of other provinces. That is a step forward.

We have a framework upon which we will build. We will build and we will come out with programs that will run over longer periods. In the meantime, we have to address the difficulties farmers are facing with what one might call short-term programs. Today I have announced a very enhanced Ontario family farm interest rate reduction program which, contrary to what the official opposition critic says, is a better program than those offered in either Alberta, Saskatchewan or Michigan. We are very proud of this program and so are the farmers.

Mr. Stevenson: I also have a question for the Minister of Agriculture and Food. In spite of the minister's rhetoric, the property tax rebate program here in Ontario is still the biggest assistance program to Ontario farmers in total dollars. Why are the forms to the farmers about three months late going out this year?

Hon. Mr. Riddell: Perhaps that question should be addressed to a ministry other than this ministry. It could be because of the postal situation we have in this country. I understand that four cents of the 34 cents is actually spent on delivering the mail and the other 30 cents is for storage. Maybe the honourable member should talk to his counterparts in Ottawa.

Mr. Stevenson: From the minister's answer it is very clear he did not have the foggiest idea that the rebate forms were late this year. As I recall, last year, the assistance to the farmers was in place in time for the last payment of taxes. Can the minister tell me how many millions of dollars his delay has saved his government to put into other agricultural programs?

Hon. Mr. Riddell: A very short answer would be none.

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OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr. Martel: I have a question for the Minister of Labour regarding Robert Hunt, a company that has been able to violate the Occupational Health and Safety Act with impunity for the past six years, including such things as 39 workers sent to hospital on one day and 13 on another in March 1986 for a toxic substance on the floor, and excessive hours of overtime.

Is the minister aware that the union finally gave up trying to get help from the Ministry of Labour and took Robert Hunt to arbitration for threats against staff by the supervisor? They won that arbitration under

section 24 of the act. Can the minister tell me whether he now is prepared to lay charges against Robert Hunt for its action against the employees?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I have heard something of a recent arbitration regarding a reprisal allegation. I have not had a chance to look at it personally. I will look at the results of the arbitrator's findings and let the honourable gentleman know. The member, and indeed the company, will see in due course what actions we will take, if any.

Mr. Martel: Since his ministry has a policy of not prosecuting if there is a successful arbitration, and since this excludes two thirds of the workers who cannot go to arbitration because they do not have the right in this province, is the minister prepared to change the policy of his ministry and prosecute where intimidation has been proved? When the minister is reporting to us, whenever it is, will he tell us how many times the ministry has prosecuted under

section 24 of the act?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: On the latter point, my friend would find that it would take some time to gather statistics. To be fair to the member, I would guess that the statistical number would not be high.

I will indicate to the member and to my colleagues in the House that as we look at amendments to the act that will come forward later this session, in a general sense the issue of workers' right of refusal and actions to protect workers in the event of reprisals ranks very high on the list. I do not believe we can move forward in terms of the rights of workers to refuse unless we are very tough on what happens when reprisals take place. If there are reprisals, provable reprisals, the ministry and the government, through our act, will be very tough in terms of those reprisals.

STABILIZATION PAYMENTS

Mr. Stevenson: I have another question for the Minister of Agriculture and Food. I noticed the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Revenue run and whisper in his ear about property tax relief. We will see what he whispers about this one.

The minister is requiring beef producers to pay $6.60 per head as they register their cattle, yet the ministry sent the tapes to Ottawa only about two weeks ago for the $13.20 payment on the tripartite stabilization for the second quarter. How many millions of dollars is this delay in payment saving the government and costing the beef producers of this province?

Hon. Mr. Riddell: It is obvious the member knows not of what he is talking. This is about the third time I have responded to the same question. I have tried to impress on the honourable member that we have sent all the information to Ottawa, where this is compiled. My suggestion is that the member contact his counterpart in Ottawa to see why Ottawa is delaying getting the information and payments back to the farmers. It is not our fault that the delay is taking place. We get the information to Ottawa as expeditiously as possible.

Mr. Stevenson: I would like to believe that, but I can assure the minister that many others in the province have phoned and questioned his ministry staff, and they do not believe the answer the minister just gave. I quote Henry Ediger of his ministry, who said, "The subsidy for beef cattle would have been $46 a head, not $13.20, had the aid program been in full effect since the beginning of the year."

We know the minister signed the stabilization agreement two months before any other government signed. We also know his position on the payments got to Ottawa at least six weeks, and maybe two months, later than the position of Alberta. How much did the minister's indecision and delay cost the beef producers of Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Riddell: The fact that I signed two months before any other minister of agriculture signed shows the leadership we display in this province.

If we go back in history a wee bit, we find the previous government tried to get a tripartite stabilization program in place for four years, and when I became the minister it was only a matter of months before we had a tripartite program in place.

We have moved; we have a program in place. The honourable member is well aware that a committee composed of livestock producers and provincial and federal government people is responsible for this program. It is not this Minister of Agriculture and Food who makes the rules and regulations; it is a committee of beef producers.

MUNICIPAL TAXATION

Mr. Grande: My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. The minister will remember that on July 10 I presented a petition in this Legislature with more than 3,200 signatures from residents of the city of York telling his government that, on the one hand, they are paying the highest rates of property tax in Metropolitan Toronto and, on the other hand, they have probably the worst level of municipal services in Metropolitan Toronto. These residents are demanding that special direct grants from his government be established to meet this crisis.

The answer to the petition, which he provided in October, was at best very confusing. Let me ask him a very direct question: Will he provide direct grants so the people of the city of York will not have to pay the highest property taxes and have the fewest municipal services in Metropolitan Toronto?

Hon. Mr. Grandmaître: I agree with the honourable member that York may be paying the highest municipal taxes because of its low commercial and industrial base. However, at the same time, once a year the Ministry of Municipal Affairs compensates municipalities with a lower commercial and industrial tax base. Only recently I turned over $3.5 million in resource equalization grants to the city of York. The $3.5 million will compensate for some of the low growth that is happening in York, but I cannot resolve all the low growth of York.

Mr. Grande: The minister will know the $3.5 million he is talking about was given to the city of York in 1983, 1984, 1985 and 1986. Therefore, it is nothing new; the city has had this grant for a while.

Does the minister not remember -- and he should flip over the page I have provided for him -- that in May 1984, the member for London Centre (Mr. Peterson), the leader of the Liberal Party of that time, the then official opposition in this Legislature, asked the people of the city of York to convene a special meeting at the municipal offices in regard to high property taxes? Is the minister now saying that in 1984 the Liberals acknowledged that property taxes were high when they could not do anything about it, but now that they can do something about it, they are saying they can do nothing about it?

15:20

Hon. Mr. Grandmaître: I just agreed with the member that York is paying the highest municipal taxes. I am not disagreeing with him; I am agreeing with him. At the same time, I am providing York, not only the city but also the region, with resource equalization grants. That is what we are doing.

This year we looked at all low-growth areas, and northern Ontario and eastern Ontario showed that their growth was lower still than York. That is why eastern Ontario and northern Ontario were better compensated, but the member's day will come. I cannot help the low growth of York because of its low commercial and industrial tax base.

ASSISTANCE TO REFUGEES

Ms. Hart: My question is for the Minister of Citizenship and Culture. A number of groups in York East are very concerned about the settlement of refugees in Ontario. Some of these groups are already making inquiries about how they can assist the refugees in their settlement. What are the policies of her ministry with respect to the settlement of refugees in Ontario?

Hon. Ms. Munro: As my honourable colleague knows, Ontario assumes total responsibility for all the settlement services of refugees. That information is given out widely through the ministry. One of the avenues through which it is given out is our Welcome Houses, which are represented both in Toronto and in Hamilton. We are also endeavouring to establish closer relations with the federal Ministry of Immigration and to deal with other ministers.

I can assure the member that in working with communities we do indeed have the infrastructure, and the communities are very much linked with establishments such as Welcome Houses. If the people of Ontario want to help to contribute, as they have in dealing with and finding homes for our refugees, Ontario welcomes them and will welcome their involvement.

Ms. Hart: My supplementary to the minister has to do with the co-ordinating effort with the federal government. Can she tell me in a little more detail what efforts have been made to date?

Hon. Ms. Munro: We have had a number of representations at the ministry level with a working committee as such, dealing with the federal Minister of State for Immigration, Mr. Weiner, which has attempted to co-ordinate in as humanitarian a way as possible the links that are necessary. Links have also been made in dealing with various church groups and community groups.

I am confident that any peoples who do arrive in Ontario by choice will receive the safe harbour they so desire. Anyone wishing to know the co-ordinating links may contact our ministry, any of the Welcome Houses or immigration or refugee offices located across this country.

DRUG BENEFIT FORMULARY

Mr. Jackson: I have a question for the Minister of Health. It has been more than a year since he first announced there would be some new drug pricing legislation. Pharmacists and consumers have been waiting two years for a new formulary, which will enable consumers to benefit from price reductions on some drugs and which will add to the list lower-cost generics which have come on to the market since then.

The minister has announced a December 1 formulary, and pricing adjustments normally occur one month later on January 1. What will he do to ensure that this formulary will reflect current changes and will be in sequence with the market?

Hon. Mr. Elston: We have put together the best information available which will reflect, in our current circumstances, the prices we have been able to arrive at on the basis of what is known as the best available price. That was the amendment suggested in the legislative committee by the opposition parties, speaking on behalf of some of the associations, notably the Ontario Pharmacists' Association. That material has been assembled to the best of our ability from information gathered under our existing system.

We are looking forward to the December 1 date, when the Drug Benefit Formulary will be put into effect with some new prices that will indicate some savings. There will be additions of some of the new drugs, as the honourable member has indicated, and we hope to be able to deal effectively with the federal excise tax, which has been an abiding concern and problem for pharmacists and consumers right across this province. Everything will come to us and will be put in place by December 1, and that will be the date when we will start adjusting according to the new formulary.

Mr. Jackson: After two years, I hope the minister's staff will be assembling more pricing information than what was available prior to the beginning of November. Will the minister be asking for prices effective January 1, or is it his intention to keep the formulary out of date so that consumers will be unable to gain immediate advantages of price reductions and will be forced to wait months for less expensive new generic drugs that will be added to the list?

Hon. Mr. Elston: There are several parts to that question which I think need answering, although I will be brief in my response. First, I thank the member for pushing so avidly for generics in the light of the fact that his federal counterparts wish to eliminate the generic advantages our system has had for the past several years. I can tell that the member is not particularly up to date on what all of us, as a party, have put forward as our position.

As the minister in charge of carriage of this situation, I met -- although not nearly often enough -- with the federal colleagues who would see me in May and June of last year. We will continue to adjust and reflect the need for changes in the formulary as the information comes to us. We are thankful for the member's help in suggesting that the prices be lowered, because we would all like to strive for competitiveness in the marketplace and save the consumers some money. I am willing to work along with the member to help save the consumers some money in Ontario.

VISITOR

Mr. Speaker: I would like to inform all members that we have a guest in the Speaker's gallery today, Lucien Lamoureux, a former Speaker of the House of Commons in Ottawa. Please join me in welcoming Mr. Lamoureux.

TABLING OF INFORMATION

Mr. Wildman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: You will note that under standing order 31(i), the government has two weeks to respond to a petition, provided it is properly worded and accepted by the House. I introduced a properly worded petition on October 22. By the most liberal

interpretation of standing order 31(i), I should have had a response by November 20. I have not heard anything from the Liberal government, and I ask you, Mr. Speaker, in your capacity as the chairman of this Legislature and this assembly, to ensure that the government lives by the rules of the House.

Mr. Speaker: The member has brought that to the attention of the House, and I am certain the government House leader has taken note of that.

USE OF GOVERNMENT OFFICES

Mr. Breaugh: Mr. Speaker, I have a point of privilege and I seek your assistance with it.

Last week, I approached the member for Northumberland (Mr. Sheppard) privately and pointed out to him that it had been brought to my attention that someone was operating a business out of his legislative office. I did not think that was appropriate, but I thought the easiest and fastest way to deal with it was to consult the member.

Today, in my office, I once again received correspondence from a Jeannette Larabie, who is now offering a travel business from a legislative office in the Whitney Block. I also discovered there is a complete Amway distributorship operating out of that office.

I am not sure our standing orders cover this. I am not sure the office in the Whitney Block is under your jurisdiction, but I am sure something is wrong here. It is clear to me that another business should not be run out of a legislative office. In fact, I find that two businesses are being operated out of this office.

My staff, and I have only two people who work here at Queen's Park, does not have time to run a business on the side out of my legislative office, and I would not want them to do it in any event. It offends me somewhat that two private businesses are in operation out of a member's office. That may not be contrary to the standing orders, but I believe it is wrong and I would like you to investigate it.

15:30

Mr. Speaker: I thank the member for bringing that matter to my attention. I thought all members were fully employed with the work of the assembly, etc. I am not certain whether I have any authority, but I will certainly review the comments made and discuss them further with you privately.

PETITIONS

DAY CARE

Mr. Bernier: I would like to table in the House today a petition signed by 78 constituents of the Kenora riding. They are petitioning the Liberal government to stop the withdrawal of indirect subsidies to day care centres until a viable funding alternative is in place.

This petition is signed by Anne West of the Norah Love Children's Centre parents' committee, Box 177, Sioux Lookout, Ontario.

EQUALITY RIGHTS LEGISLATION

Mr. D. R. Cooke: I have a petition signed by approximately 440 constituents. It is addressed to the Legislature, myself and the member for Kitchener-Wilmot (Mr. Sweeney). It is in opposition to Bill 7. I would like to quote it in part, because part of the argument is unique. It reads:

"We are supportive of the Ontario Human Rights Code...and agree that the legislation was both appropriate and necessary and wish to point out that a vital tenet of both the human rights code and the Christian faith is the principle of the inherent dignity and equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family.

"Our opposition to the proposed amendment is based on our desire to preserve the Judaeo-Christian values which have been the basis of the moral code of this province and this country.

"In accordance with the position adopted by the Catholic bishops of Ontario, we feel amendments in the present form fail to distinguish between sexual orientation as a condition of man and sexual orientation that may be seen to describe a form of sexual behaviour, such as homosexuality and/or any form of sexual promiscuity which represents a lifestyle that is contrary to Christian morality and will cause great harm to our society. In failing to distinguish between a condition and a form of behaviour or lifestyle, this legislation may be viewed and used to condone and promote a form of behaviour that is detrimental to society and inconsistent with Christian principles."

MOTIONS

WITHDRAWAL OF BILL 68

Hon. Mr. Nixon moved that the order for second reading of Bill 68,

An Act to amend the Securities Act, be discharged and the bill be withdrawn.

Motion agreed to.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

Hon. Mr. Nixon moved that the member for Brantford (Mr. Gillies) and the member for St. George (Ms. Fish) exchange places in the order of precedence for private members' public business and that notwithstanding standing order 71(h), the requirement for notice be waived with respect to the ballot item standing in the name of the member for St. George.

Motion agreed to.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

PAY EQUITY ACT / LOI PORTANT ÉTABLISSEMENT DE L'ÉQUITÉ SALARIALE

Hon. Mr. Scott moved first reading of Bill 154,

An Act to provide for Pay Equity in the Broader Public Sector and in the Private Sector.

L'hon. M. Scott propose la première lecture du projet de loi 154, Loi portant établissement de l'équité salariale dans le secteur parapublic et dans le secteur public.

Motion agreed to.

La motion est adoptée.

SIMCOE DAY ACT

Mr. McLean moved first reading of Bill 155,

An Act respecting Simcoe Day.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. McLean: The purpose of the bill is to change the name of the public holiday celebrated in many municipalities on the first Monday in August from Civic Holiday to Simcoe Day, in honour of John Graves Simcoe, who was appointed the first Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada on September 12, 1791, convened the first Legislative Assembly and also established the capital of the province at York, now Toronto.

SECURITIES AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Kwinter moved first reading of Bill 156,

An Act to amend the Securities Act.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: I am introducing today for first reading the Securities Amendment Act, which amends the Securities Act principally in the area of takeover bids and issuer bids. The legislation is a result of a review by the Ontario Securities Commission, in consultation with the securities industry and other provincial securities administrators, which was begun in 1982.

It is substantially what was contained in Bill 68, which was given first reading on December 3, 1985, and reintroduced on April 22, 1986. Bill 68 has been withdrawn.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS IN ORDERS AND NOTICES AND RESPONSES TO PETITIONS

Hon. Mr. Nixon: Before the orders of the day, I wish to table the answers to questions 402, 413, 414 and 448, the interim answer to question 454, the response to petition, sessional paper 210, and the interim response to petition, sessional paper 221, standing in Orders and Notices [see Hansard for Monday, December 1].

MOTION TO SET ASIDE ORDINARY BUSINESS

Mr.

Brandt moved that pursuant to standing order 37(a), the ordinary business of the House be set aside to debate a matter of urgent public importance, that being the announced closure by Goodyear Canada Inc. of its manufacturing plant in Metropolitan Toronto with the attendant loss of more than 1,550 jobs in that community, the fact that the government has totally failed to respond to protect the jobs of the workers and the community economic base they represent, the fact that there is no process of public accountability in such instances that would ensure every possible alternative is explored to prevent the closure of the plant, and the government's failure to implement a comprehensive industrial adjustment program.

Mr. Speaker: The notice of motion was received in time by my office, at 11 a.m. this morning, which complies with standing order 37(a).

I will listen to the honourable member for up to five minutes, as well as representatives from the other parties.

Mr. Brandt: I fully appreciate, as do the other members of this House, that we have other urgent business that was to come before us today, but I feel that at this point the matter pertaining to the proposed Goodyear closure is perhaps the most critical issue we have to deal with today.

15:40

Up until this time, the only reason we have heard that makes any sense whatever with respect to the closure is that it is somehow bound up in the financial dealings of Sir James Goldsmith, the financier who apparently was interested in a takeover of the Goodyear plant. As a direct result of that gentleman's involvement in Goodyear affairs, it now appears that about 1,550 jobs are in jeopardy. I suggest as well that the matter will not end with the 1,550 jobs. My own community is involved in the production of rubber, as many members are aware, and there could well be some negative spinoff effects as a result of the plant closure now being proposed.

Many additional jobs are at risk here: those of suppliers, truckers and small business people; but the part that bothers me most about this whole question is that Goodyear is, in fact, a profitable Canadian operation. According to the best information I have been able to receive -- and I listened carefully to what the minister had to say on this matter during question period -- it would appear that in a nine-month period, Goodyear has had a net profit in Canada in excess of $11 million. That $11 million would indicate to me that the plant should remain open.

If it were a plant that was not operating on a profitable basis, if it were showing significant losses, I would be somewhat more sympathetic to the kind of problem the Goodyear people are apparently trying to face, but this is an entirely different problem. We are talking here about a profitable operation and about a manufacturing plant in the heart of Metro Toronto that has no reason to close down. There is a market there; there is a product that is viable, and every single indicator is that the plant should be saved.

That plant has been operating in Etobicoke for some 69 years now. In fact, the community grew up around that plant, as many members are aware. What concerns me as well, and one of the reasons I have put forward the proposal for an emergency debate on this issue, is that from January to August of this year, the government sitting across the aisle from us has sat by idly while some 15,000 announced or actual layoffs have taken place in the short course of some seven months. I suggest that those numbers are becoming extremely critical, and the 1,550 that were announced by Goodyear simply add fuel to the fire.

I ask where the minister has been during the course of this entire discussion. According to the minister's response to a question in question period, he heard about this for the first time on Friday. I suggest that there is an anticipatory role for the ministry to play. The minister should acknowledge that you can foresee this kind of thing happening when you see some of the tell-tale signs that are before you.

Let me cite some of them.

(1) We had a takeover threat in this particular plant, which was announced in many of the newspapers.

(2) We have a plant that is somewhat antiquated; it is an old plant. Again, the minister should have seen that there might be some problems related to that.

(3) We have very intense foreign competition in this industry at present, and the industry generally is facing some problems.

With all of the those signs, I would think the minister would anticipate a problem and would attempt to sit down in advance to work out some kind of solution, one by which the jobs could be saved. I might add that the former government, at a time when there were some difficulties with respect to Massey-Ferguson in Brantford, did bring forward the necessary dollars to save that plant and that operation.

There are 1,550 direct jobs at stake here. I suggest that throughout the course of this emergency debate there will be some ideas, some thoughts and some suggestions to give the minister some leadership as to how he should proceed at this time to try to save those jobs. I do not believe it is too late if he takes the necessary action. Out of this debate, l hope there will come some ideas that he can put to use in saving the jobs in Etobicoke.

Mrs. Grier: I rise to indicate the support of our party for an emergency debate this afternoon on what is a very crucial issue not only to my riding and community of Lakeshore but also to the province as a whole. As has been said, this is certainly a profitable firm and a profitable plant. There has been a history of co-operation between the members of Local 232 of the United Rubber Workers union in that plant and management in coping with the reality of its being an old plant and the reality that is required in a modern economy.

We must have a debate today and that debate must lead to legislation, so that we in this Legislature are not for ever closing the barn door after all the horses have bolted. This is not a new issue. It has been before the House on many occasions with many closures. There have been many debates and many questions.

We in this party had anticipated the need for legislative action. That is why, in the accord that was signed between the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party, there is a very specific commitment to the reform of job security legislation, including notice, justification of layoffs and plant shutdowns and improved severance legislation. The debate we have today has to result in just that legislation. It also has to result in some commitment that we will save the specific jobs at Goodyear in New Toronto.

I welcome the conversion of my neighbour to the right, the member for Sarnia (Mr. Brandt), on this issue. I point out to the House that had the select committee on plant shutdowns and employee adjustments, which was convened in 1981 by the former government, been reconvened after the 1981 election, we might have had legislation that would have prevented this province from being in the situation in which it now finds itself.

We cannot afford to delay any longer. Not only must we have legislation that protects the workers and the community, we must also have the requirement that there be public justification so that we can all know the financial background and the rationale. It is not good enough that jobs in Ontario will be sacrificed for corporate stock market manipulations in Akron, Ohio, and that the production that is now needed in this province and is taking place at that plant should merely be shifted to some other province or, in this case, to some other country.

This closure will have enormous effects on my community, on the employees who are already there and on the pensioners of that firm, many of whom live in southern Etobicoke. I hope this debate will be a productive one and will lead to action on the part of the government.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: We have no objection whatsoever to the designation of this matter as an emergency. The fact that some perambulatory British peer, in trying to maximize an already unconscionably large fortune, should be meddling in the corporate intricacies of Goodyear Tire and Rubber surely is not an adequate reason that the employees in Ontario should be facing a layoff. I agree with those who have already spoken and with the views expressed in question period that this sort of thing is totally appalling. I have no objection to its being designated as an emergency matter.

As has already been pointed out, the government was made aware of this on Friday afternoon. In response to questions earlier today, the minister said that while he had already been talking to the Canadian president, he and his officials were insisting that the international senior executives come to Toronto so that the matter might be reviewed tomorrow.

I suggest that the House might consider having this debate tomorrow rather than today. As usual, the Progressive Conservatives have quite readily shown their pre-eminence over the New Democratic Party in matters having to do with labour negotiations. They got their motion in in good time and there it is; so everybody knows, on an objective review, who the real friends of labour are. That is not in question. They had it in in good time.

However, this afternoon by agreement of the House leaders we were to debate some very important amendments to the Ontario Human Rights Code. A number of people have made special arrangements to be present for the debate and the vote. Those include a number of my cabinet colleagues, who were persuaded -- as a matter of fact, they were extremely eager to do so -- to rearrange their intricate schedules set far in advance so they could be present in the House and express their personal views on this sensitive and important matter. I am sure they can continue to set aside their schedules for as long as required.

I suggest this emergency matter will still be an emergency tomorrow. The minister has already indicated he will be able to report to the House from the senior executives not only of the Canadian subsidiary but of Goodyear Tire and Rubber as well. I wish I could promise that we would have Sir James himself here so we could say and do to him some of the things that spring to mind.

Aside from that, I simply indicate that the debate of this important matter might very well take place tomorrow, not that I and my colleagues have the disposition of the matter, but we would undertake to support without any equivocation that the debate would go on then. It would be reasonable and appreciated if the business as already established were allowed to continue today.

15:50

Mr. Speaker: I have listened very carefully to the three spokespersons, as I am sure all members have. According to standing order 37(b), it is my job to place the motion. Shall the debate proceed?

Motion agreed to.

PLANT SHUTDOWNS

Mr. Brandt: In the brief opportunity I had prior to this debate being allowed to proceed, I mentioned to the minister that there should be some anticipatory response from the ministry in the case of a plant closing or a proposed plant closing of this type. I indicated there were a number of red flags out there relative to the Goodyear situation that should have raised some level of concern within the ministry.

It bothers me that the situation as it relates to a proposed plant closing in my own area is somewhat similar to the Goodyear situation. The minister may recall the letters I have written to him and the Premier (Mr. Peterson) indicating there is a very serious problem relative to the Ethyl Canada plant located immediately to the south of my riding, in the great riding of Lambton, which is currently the responsibility of the member for Lambton (Mr. D. W. Smith). On a number of occasions, I have pointed out that the government should respond to those situations; it should take some action relative to a proposed plant closing that would save the jobs.

What can one do in this case? In the first instance, I suggest the reasons given for the plant closing in the case of Goodyear are totally inadequate. To suggest that the necessity of closing this profitably operating plant is a result of a takeover bid by Sir James Goldsmith, because of a modest cash flow problem the corporation has, makes absolutely no sense whatever to me.

I do not know what responses and answers to questions the minister has received from Goodyear up to this point, but I would like to point out that back in April 1985, a working document was circulated at that time by the Liberal Party of Ontario. On page 7 of the working document, it says, "A Liberal government will ensure that where justification for a plant closure is inadequate, the full cost of all concessions granted to the firm be recovered."

That was one of the policy positions the Liberal Party was putting forward. It also indicated that in addition to creating new jobs, existing employment must be protected. I could not agree more. It pointed out the terrible statistics of that time, that during the previous three years there were some 25,600 jobs that had been lost. I point out that in only seven months, 15,000 jobs have been lost or are about to be lost as a result of the inaction of this government with respect to this type of problem.

It also goes on to say in its working document that not every plant closing is unjustified or that facilities should be forced to remain open when economically unviable. I agree, but here we have a set of circumstances where the plant and the corporation in Canada are profitable. As a result of activities that are well beyond the operations of this plant, there has been some suggestion that a closure is imminent. As far as I am concerned, that is totally and completely out of the question in terms of being fair to the workers at that plant.

It is interesting that today we had the Attorney General (Mr. Scott), as minister responsible for women's issues, introduce legislation for the expansion of pay equity in this province. Yet there will be no equity for the Goodyear workers after they are laid off; there is no way they will be able to get a balanced paycheque or to continue to fund their responsibilities, because their jobs will no longer be there.

What can the minister do? I am not going to stand here in my place and simply criticize, but I suggest he might take the suggestions of my leader, who today indicated some of the investments that have already been made by the government to create new jobs, particularly in the automotive industry. The minister can sit down with the Goodyear officials and try to find out exactly what the cost is of modernizing, upgrading and making the current plant more acceptable, what the cost might be for that kind of action on the part of the minister and the government.

If the government can invest millions of dollars in creating new jobs, there is just as much rationale and just as much logic in investing money to save existing jobs. Manufacturing industry jobs are vital to our province; they are high-tech types of employment that are very difficult to replace. Once lost, they usually end up going to some other country or some far-flung area of the world, never to return to our province or country again.

We cannot afford to lose these jobs, and my party will support any responsible action on the part of the minister that will invest in the retention of these jobs in this province. We feel that is an appropriate response and one that may well be welcomed by the Goodyear people.

I am not talking about a giveaway or about corporate handouts; I am talking about looking at the most serious problem that has to be solved in this instance, the saving of the 1,500 jobs, plus the downstream spinoff, which is very considerable as well. It may even go back to my own community, which in part supplies plants such as Goodyear with the butyl rubber used in the production of tires.

The Premier talked about mandatory corporate consultation when a situation such as this develops, but I have heard nothing other than a surprise announcement on Friday followed by a litany of very weak reasons that have come forward from the corporation as to why the plant is going to be closed. There has been no consultation to any great extent other than the very limited discussions the minister has had with the corporate officials, which I believe he indicated took place this morning.

Where was that consultation? In my view, it should have been held some months ago, when this problem could be seen starting to come down the road. The earlier action is taken on a matter of this kind, the more likely there is to be a successful result. If you wait until the horse is gone, it is far too late to close the barn door. That is what has happened in this case. The minister is now scrambling; he said he was shocked and concerned. I share the concern he has about the loss of these jobs. I am sure he did not welcome this announcement or sit around over the weekend saying he hoped this would happen.

To be shocked and concerned, however, is not adequate in terms of what had to be done in this case. I cannot agree with all the proposals that will be brought forward by the third party relative to a legislative package that would control all elements of plant closings, but there are elements in what they are talking about and there may be some good ideas they can bring forward that should be looked upon as being positive suggestions in the light of the situation we are facing. I would put those in position alongside our suggestion that some government funding should be used to keep this plant operating in Ontario.

16:00

I point out to the minister that very little of the money in his high-technology fund has been spent to this point. I do not want to get into a political debate about some of the commitments made for Exploracom and some of those other questionable investments, but I do want to say that the 1,500 or more jobs in Etobicoke are equally important as any high-technology jobs that may be involved in a computer company in downtown Toronto. The minister should look very carefully at the amount of money he has available to him, committed through the budget of the Treasurer (Mr.

Nixon), and perhaps use at least a small percentage of that to try to save these jobs and jobs in other communities. I again bring up the concern I have shared with the minister on a number of occasions about the problem of Ethyl Canada in the Sarnia-Lambton area.

There are a number of things the minister can