Manitoba Hansard — 9 May 2002 (Sitting 29B, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-29b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

� � Third Session • Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 29B • 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 9, 2002

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HA WRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LA THLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Ross mere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. ,- WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1295 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 9, 2002 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Assiniboia Memorial Curling Club Holding Company Ltd. Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): I beg to present the petition of the Assiniboia Memorial Curling Club Holding Company Limited, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Mani toba pass

an act respecting the Assiniboia Memorial Curling Club Holding Company Limited. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Mining Week Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): I have a statement for the House. Today I rise to again proclaim Mining Week in Manitoba from May 10 to 16. It is a real privilege and honour for me to be standing here in the House today as the Minister responsible for Mining.

I wish to draw everyone's attention to the proclamation that is on your desk, and to the beautiful carving that was produced from stone that was originated from the Tanco Mine and worked into the shape of the province of Manitoba by volunteer labour in the Department of Mines. The minerals that we mine in Manitoba- Mr. Speaker: Order. May I ask all honourable members when reading from Ministerial State ments to please follow the script, because it is not fair to the critic who will have to respond. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Ms. Mihychuk: Mr.

Speaker, I did not mean to confuse the members opposite or take away from the statement. I would be glad to follow the script precisely, and I am honoured once again to proclaim the week of May 10 to 16, 2002, as Mining Week in Manitoba. I would like to draw the attention of the House to the proclamation that has been distributed to all members. The minerals we mine enhance the lives of all Manitobans and contribute enormously to our quality of life.

We need to be aware of the importance of this industry, Manitoba's second largest primary resource industry that accounts for 3.5 percent of Manitoba's GDP, second only to agriculture which is 4 percent. The lepidolite carving at your seat was graciously provided to all of us by the Tantalum Mining Corporation of Canada Ltd., also known as Tanco. Mr. Speaker, the Tanco mine, located 175 kilometers northeast of Winnipeg, is the sole source of North American produced tantalum, which is used in cell phones, computers and other electronics.

Manitoba is the only province or territory that has seen a rise in exploration expenditures from 1999 to 2001. The unprecedented level of diamond exploration that began last year continues in the Northern Superior Province. Manitoba has the right geology for diamond deposits. My department is working hard to provide industry with the essential data it needs to attract even more diamond exploration. To ensure the ongoing viability of mining communities and to identify the challenges facing the industry, I commissioned a mining task force last November.

The task force gathered public input on the ways to strengthen the industry and promote sustainability. The message the task force heard was clear. The mining industry is important to Manitobans, yet it is facing enormous global challenges.

1296 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 Our Government's commitment to this industry is also clear. Budget 2002 announced the renewal of the Mineral Exploration Assist ance Program and the Manitoba Prospectors Assistance Program. Both were an additional three-year term. * (13:35) We have also introduced a new mineral exploration tax credit as a further incentive to Manitoba residents to invest in Manitoba-based exploration projects. This is all part of our strategy to boost investment in mineral exploration and develop ment in Manitoba as it is the lifeblood of our northern communities.

The mining industry has shown leadership in the Manitoba protected areas initiative, and is an active member of the east side planning round table. The sector has also collaborated with Aboriginal communities in developing the Mani toba minerals guidelines, a series of guiding principles to help build relationships and foster opportunities between the mining and explora tion industry and Aboriginal communities. Our Government also recognizes the importance of transparent multi-stakeholder ap proaches to managing our provincial natural resources.

New initiatives such as the Hayes River heritage designation will rely heavily on multi-stakeholder input, including the mining sector, in developing an approach that does not compromise future mining opportunities. It is critical that we find solutions to land use issues that are focussed on opportunities, whether it is economic development, such as mining and eco-tourism, or natural and cultural heritage, such as protected areas and traditional land use. I would encourage all Manitobans and all members to join us for provincial Mining Week celebrations at The Forks this weekend.

The activities are free, so bring the whole family out for a rocking good time. Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Thank you, Minister, for that statement and for the encouragement to the mining industry. We certainly on this side have a respect for the mining industry. We have shown that over the years when we were in government, and we strongly supported, as you claim to do, the mining industry. I have recently met with the presidents of two of the largest mines in Manitoba. I also had the opportunity to meet with the president and vice-president of the Mining Association of Manitoba.

I am clear that this is our second largest industry in Manitoba. It is a very important industry. A lot of people in southern Manitoba focus on agriculture, which is our largest industry, but as has been said this is our second-largest industry in Manitoba. It is so critical that we support this industry because out of every million dollars worth of ore extracted from the ground, $800,000 is spent in this province. It is a real generator of financial activity in this province, and it is extremely important that we focus on supporting the mining industry in this province.

I did find out that the mining executives are very, very concerned about upcoming legis lation, since they have in the last 10 years become the safest major industry in the province, agriculture being the least safe. So the workplace, health and safety rules that are contemplated are of a great fear, in fact, so much so that they have been experimenting with importing ore so they would not have to mine in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to have to report that but that is what I have been told.

Furthermore, we are undermining the miners because they have high paying jobs and they get the highest taxes in Canada west of Quebec. So we are not supporting them in a competitive tax environment. I am concerned about that because mining is so terribly important to us. * (13:40) Furthermore, if we really were serious about supporting mining we would not be closing the office in The Pas, the mines registration office, where besides dismissing three employees with a total of 75 years of experience we have a million-dollar building there for storing the mining samples.

What are we going to do with a million-dollar building when we close the office

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1297 in The Pas, the most favoured office in Manitoba for mining? Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to pay tribute to miners and those involved in the mining industry. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member requires leave first. Does the honourable Mem ber for River Heights have leave? {Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: I pay tribute today to miners in Manitoba and to those involved in one way or another in the mining industry. This is, as has already been said, a very important industry.

I think when the Opposition critic was talking and saying the second most important he probably meant the second most important primary industry, as opposed to secondary or manu facturing, but that does not take away from the fact that this is a very important industry and one that should be supported. I would briefly draw the minister's attention to the clause in the proclamation about win-win partnerships involving government, industry and communities. It would seem to me that there are two elements which are missing there.

One is the unions, which play an important role, a sur prising omission for the Government, but perhaps they took a Tory proclamation from before and did not change it. I think it is important that individual citizens are also recognized as playing an important role in these partnerships.

Let us pay not only a tribute but a thanks to the miners who often work under somewhat dangerous conditions, and recognize the importance of safety in this industry as well as other aspects which are important to make sure this industry is vibrant and growing, and that indeed we build not only the primary industry but also secondary industries based on the product produced in Manitoba's mines. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 12-The Consumer Protection Amendment Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, Training and Youth (Mr.

Caldwell), that leave be given to introduce Bill 12, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act, and that the same be received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Smith: This bill will provide protection for consumers from negative-option marketing practices, amend some of the collection practice prohibitions and the Internet agreement pro visions to harmonize with similar provisions across the country and increase fines for offences under the act. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us the members of the North American Indigenous Games Council. They are Alex Nelson, president, from the province of British Columbia; Mike Hawpetoss, vice-president, from the state of Wisconsin; George Lepine, secretary, from the province of Ontario and Susan Guerin, treasurer, from the state of Oregon. This group is here as the guest of the honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) and the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr.

Lemieux). * (13:45) Also seated in the public gallery we have the Springfield School's parent council. They are the guests of the honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler). Also seated in the public gallery we have from Garden Grove School 28 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Jim Lapp. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms. Barrett). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Hydro Rate Increase Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, during the Budget Address the Finance Minister indicated that the

1298 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 Doer government would be raiding Manitoba Hydro profits to the tune of $288 million, $150 million of that for last year's books, to balance the deficit from last year. Earlier this week when asked if Hydro rates would increase for Manitobans due to the raid, the Finance Minister indicated that we do not anticipate any great increases. My question to the Premier (Mr. Doer) is: What does he consider a great increase? Five percent? Ten percent? Twenty percent? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): To make the record absolutely correct, we do not anticipate any increases. Mr. Murray: Prior to the Government's decision to raid Manitoba Hydro for $288 million, Manitoba Hydro themselves pro duced documents that called for rate increases of 6. 1 percent over four years. How can the Finance Minister tell Manitobans that Hydro rates will not increase when their own documents are showing a 6. 1% increase over four years? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba Hydro has always been very conservative in its forecasts and has always predicted that one or two years out they would require a rate increase. However, the experience is that they have always exceeded their forecast in terms of profits and therefore it has not been necessary to have a rate increase. We expect this trend to continue. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Hydro documents clearly indicate a 6. 1% increase over four years, yet when asked whether Manitoba Hydro rates would be increased the Finance/Hydro minister indicated that he did not anticipate any increases.

I guess, my question: Would the Finance Minister ask the Hydro Minister if anybody can substantiate what Manitoba Hydro officials are saying: a 6. 1% increase over four years? Mr.

Selinger: After careful consultation with the minister in charge of Manitoba Hydro and the Minister of Finance, we have determined, based upon actual experience of profits exceeding forecast of $371 million between the periods of 1997 and 2001, the $371 million over forecast gives us some zone of comfort that once again, all things being equal, we will see very healthy profits from Manitoba Hydro and therefore no necessity for a rate increase. Manitoba Hydro Rate Increase Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, on Tuesday the Minister responsible for Hydro, the Minister of Finance, admitted to Manitobans and to this House that he had no idea what rate increases Manitobans would face with regard to their electrical power. This flies in the face of Hydro's own projections which call for a rate increase of 6.1 percent. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance how he could present a Budget to Manitobans which strips close to $300 million from Manitoba Hydro without first consulting the management of Manitoba Hydro to determine what effect this might have on ratepayers. Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Once again, just to give an illustration of what the experience has been, in the year 1997 the forecast was for a $48-million net surplus or profit; the actual was $101 million. In the year 1998, the forecast was $48.6 million; the actual experience was $111 million. For the year 1999, the forecast was $52 million; the actual experience was $100 million. For the year 2000, the forecast was $96 million; the actual was $152 million.

For the year 2001, the forecast was $116 million; the actual was $270 million. * (13:50) The trend is very clear. There have been profits in excess of forecasts which allow us the opportunity to assure that Manitobans get the full benefit of Manitoba Hydro's dividends based on building a project, Limestone, which was expressly built for export purposes. It was always intended to produce benefits for all of Manitoba. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Hydro: Was he so desperate to hide the fact that he needed $150 million from Manitoba Hydro to cover last

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1299 year's operating deficit that he was willing to compromise the integrity of the management group at Manitoba Hydro by not consulting them about what effect the dividend would have on their company? Mr. Selinger: I have just illustrated for the House the extraordinary advantage that we have of owning Manitoba Hydro in this province, an advantage that we have protected in legislation by requiring a referendum before it is sold off, such as the members opposite did with the Manitoba Telephone System.

I can tell you our relationship with respect to any Crown in Manitoba is very respectful. We intend to keep them in the public domain for the advantage of all Manitobans, not say one thing and do another after we are elected, like the members opposite did. Financial Statements Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Hydro whether he will ask Manitoba Hydro to restate their third quarter financial report which he tabled in this House which shows in spite of earnings of $164 million, the cash position of Manitoba Hydro has decreased by $50 million to $14 million, or is this just part of his scheme to hide last year's operating deficit? Does that involve forcing Manitoba Hydro to produce inaccurate financial statements which do not accurately reflect the financial position of that company as it stands today? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, one day they accuse the Government for interfering in Crown corpora tions. Now we have the minister opposite- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the one hand, they raise concerns about Government interference with Crown corporations and, on the other hand, we now have a member standing up and asking me to interfere with the Crown corporation's preparation of its own quarterly financial reports.

It is an outrageous request to ask the Government to interfere with the Crown's preparation of its own quarterly financial reports. It flies in the face of their own recommendations. Public Schools Act

Section 7(2)-Compliance Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): The Public Schools Act clearly states there is a prerequisite to altering school division bounda ries, that being a boundary review commission must precede any changes. Can the minister confirm that he has met the prerequisites as stated in

section 7(2) of The Public Schools Act? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Members opposite referred to the Norrie report, the Manitoba School Divisions/District Boundaries Review Commission, which was undertaken by members opposite when they were in government in 1994 at a cost of some $700,000, in excess of $700,000, a report that also did not see the light of day until the change in government in 1999. * (13:55) Just to refresh the Member for Minnedosa's memory, the first recommendation of the Boundaries Review report is that the commis sion recommends the minister and the Depart ment of Education and Training adopt a strong leadership role in articulating a vision for the future in establishing education policy for the province.

That is indeed what we are doing. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, did the minister obtain a legal opinion that indicated that he had met the prerequisites as stated in

section 7(2) of the act, and can he table that legal opinion? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Minnedosa, who is a long-serving MLA in this House, is quite aware that, and I applaud that, too. The MLA for Minnedosa is a long-serving and respected member of this House. I know all of us in this House appreciate the wisdom he brings to this Chamber. The member also knows in accord with tradition that legal opinions are not tabled in this

1300 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9,2002 House, but in each and every case as we proceed with this process we are acting in all due respect I to process. Mr. Gilleshammer: Is the �inister satisfied that the public has had an opportunity to have sufficient input to be able to react to this proposal? Mr. Caldwell: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, this is an issue that has been in the public domain since the early 1990s. Mr. Bill Norrie and his com mission tabled the report in this House, I can give the precise date, November 30, 1994, after quite extensive consultations around the prov ince.

I know that my former colleague in Brandon, Earl Backman, the CEO of the City of Brandon at that time, the city manager, was the principal secretary of the report. In fact, my copy of the Norrie report is an autographed one urging me to get on with it, which I appreciate- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. An Honourable Member: Why do you not sell it for a fundraiser for one of the schools that you are raping? Point of Order Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, a point of order on that comment. I would like the member to withdraw that remark. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Is the honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth up on a point of order? Mr. Caldwell: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable minister, on a point of order. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, the comment by the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that there was a raping taking place in this province I believe is not worthy of this House. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I was not speaking of any raping.

I was speaking of the raping that this minister was doing of the education system, which is not out of order. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Deputy Govern ment House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, now that the Opposition House Leader has confirmed his comments on the record, I must say that I am surprised as Opposition House Leader he would use a term like that which is clearly unparli amentary, a term that specifically referred, in this case, to a minister. That kind of a term is not appropriate in this House, and I would ask you, Mr.

Speaker, to ask him to withdraw what was clearly unparli amentary language. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, I thank the members for their advice. I will take the matter under advise ment to peruse Hansard and consult the procedural authorities, and I will report back to the House. *** Mr. Caldwell: To conclude my response, as I said, Mr. Speaker, I take great pride in having had a number of conversations with the former executive secretary. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Minnedosa, on a new question.

Public Schools Modernization Act

Section 9.3-Justification Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, Bill 14, which can change the amendments to The Public Schools Act, adds

section 9.3 called the Validation of Manitoba Regulation 61/02 in which the minister feels the need to state that the regulation, in accordance with

section 7, is validated and declared to have

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1301 been lawfully made, and everything done pursuant to that regulation is validated and declared to have been lawfully done. Can the minister explain why he felt the need to include this provision in the act? Is this not an admission that he has not followed the requirements of his own act? Why does he have to validate his actions and repeat twice that this has been lawfully done? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I do appreciate the three questions that the membe r asked in his first question.

I think it is appropri ate to have a discussion around issues that are so greatly important to children and the future of the education system in our province, that there have been tremendous deliberations through the last numbe r of years, indeed, nearly a decade. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: Of course, this legislation is about children and enhancing educational out comes for children. Mr. Speaker, it is about redirecting educational resources from board rooms to classrooms. Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like the minister to focus his mind on

section 9.3. If the minister has followed due process and has followed legal opinion, as he stated in this House, why is it necessary to add

section 9.3 to The Public Schools Act to say that he is validating a regulation and that this was lawfully done? Why is it necessary to put that in the bill? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, of course members opposite will have a place at committee to discuss these things. In terms of- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would urge members opposite to send this to committee so we can begin this process. In this legislation and in all legislation pertaining to the public school system, children are our highest priority.

This entire piece of legislation is designed to assist children, improve their outcomes and enhance their outcomes in the public school system. It is designed to direct educational resources from boardrooms to class rooms so that children are the primary beneficiaries of educational funding. Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, I would ask the minister to focus on this

section of the bill, 9.3, and I would ask- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if the member might focus on the rules, and specifically Beauchesne which indicates quite clearly that there are no

preambles on supple mentary questions. I wonder if you could ask the member to focus in on our rules in Ques tion Period. Mr. Speaker: The. honourable Member for Minnedosa, on the same point of order. Mr. Gilleshammer: I believe that Beauchesne also says the minister should focus on the question and answer the question. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Deputy Government House Leader, I would just like to take this opportunity to remind all members Beauchesne Citation 409(2) advises that supplementary ques tions should not require a

preamble, and to add to the comments from the honourable Member for Minnedosa, to remind all honourable minis ters to deal with the matter that is raised. I would just like to remind all members of the House. *** Mr. Gilleshammer: I value your admonition on that. Mr. Speaker, is this not an admission that the minister has bungled this file and needed to add

section 9.3 in order to retroactively cover up for his failure to adhere to the requirements of

1302 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9,20 02 The Public Schools Act? Why does he have to do this retroactively? Mr. Caldwell: The answer :to his first question in his second supplementary is no. Public Schools Mode.rnization Act

Section 21-Justification Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I wish to table

section 21(2) of Bill 14. In the proposed Bill 14,

section 21, the Government intends to rob the people of Manitoba of any opportunity to challenge any changes made to school divisions by rendering any decision of any board of reference or a court of no force or effect. Why is this minister setting such a dangerous precedent by creating a system where a citizen's right to question their government's action is stripped and dissenting voices are silenced? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Of course, Mr. Speaker, we are not being democratic here at all. We are bringing the whole issue before the Legislature.

The bill will be before committee in public hearings. The bill was tabled. Indeed, at the first opportunity, if members opposite want to get the debate, let us get it to committee. Mr. Schuler: I ask the minister: Given that

section 21 is listed as a transitional piece of legislation, does he not know it is in times of transition that it is of most importance to guarantee the rights of the people to challenge their government in a court of law, like the mothers and fathers today in the gallery? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all members when the Speaker stands the members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence and also to remind all members that the clock is running. The more time you use for disruptions, the less the number of questions and answers we will have.

I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Caldwell: I do appreciate the Member for Springfield reading verbatim off his press release. In noting in paragraph 3 about dangerous precedents, I also note that it is an incorrect usage, but that is neither here nor there. * (14: 10) The amalgamation exercise that is taking place in this province has involved eight years of consultation. Manitoba along with Saskatchewan are the last jurisdictions in this country to undertake this exercise. As elsewhere in Canada, this issue is not about politics but about children. Mr.

Schuler: Why is this minister stripping the rights of citizens to question the actions of this Government in a court of law when it must be the right of every citizen to challenge their government? This is now a government by decree. Mr. Caldwell: I may be nussmg something, Mr. Speaker, but I am under- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: I appreciate members opposite playing to the gallery. I may be missing something, but it is my impression that we are having a public debate on this matter right now and we will continue to do so.

I urge members to get this bill to committee so we can move forward. Winnipeg Casinos Second-hand Smoke Effects Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation: In my view, though it would appear not the minister's view, Crown corporations should be exemplary in their business practices and leaders in the effort to have safer workplaces.

Since the Fox-Decent review committee on improving workplace, safety and health has said exposure to second-hand smoke is a serious health hazard under any circumstance and it is an occupational health hazard if workers are exposed to second-hand smoke during the course of their working day, I ask the minister what is her approach to the issue of exposure to high

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1303 levels of second-hand smoke for workers and visitors to the McPhillips Street Station and Club Regent Casino, for which she is responsible? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): I thank the member for his question. I certainly share his concerns about the effects of cigarette smoke, first-hand and second- hand. I do want to point out to him that in January of 2002 the City of Winnipeg introduced a by-law. It does not allow smoking in places that are accessible to minors.

Both casinos in Winnipeg are of course restricted to persons over 18 years and therefore the casinos were not affected by this by-law. I could also point out that there are several other parts. Mr. Speaker, the casinos have state-of-the-art ventilation systems at both McPhilli ps Street Station and at Regent Street casino. As well, the member may or may not be aware that the gaming areas in McPhilli ps Street Station and Club Regent are 50 percent smoking and 50 percent non smoking. That is to say- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation: I ask the minister if she will provide results for this Legislature of studies of the workers at the casinos to determine whether there have been adverse phys ical or mental health effects as a result of the conditions at the casino and, of course, particularly related to smoking but perhaps also in other respects as well. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, the member of course would have to apprise me of what those other aspects or respects are.

I do want to tell the member that smoking is not allowed in any of the offices of Manitoba Lotteries, and I also want to point out to him that those workers who have especially asked that they have work that does not bring them in contact with second-hand smoke are being accommodated. So we are certainly working hard to address the needs of all workers at both our casinos. We certainly take this issue very seriously. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, in other health problems, I was of course referring to gaming addictions, which the minister, I presume, has some knowledge of this side effect of the casinos, but I would follow up in my supple mentary to the minister. Can the minister tell this Legislature whether there are ef forts to monitor the carcinogens, the cancer -causing chemicals which are present in smoke, chemicals like benzene, crylonytrol, benzopyrene in the casinos to determine whether there are detectable levels of these cancer-causing agents in the air in the casinos? Ms.

McGifford: The casinos of course are subject to the same kinds of inspections as other facilities in the province and the casinos, as I have told the member opposite repeatedly, are in compliance with all the requirements of the City of Winnipeg, all the laws and regulations. So that is the answer to his question. Highway Construction/Maintenance Capital Budget Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): I would like to preface my question by saying that, after decades of neglect, the highways in the Interlake are finally getting the attention they deserve by this Government.

My question is for the Minister of Transportation and Government Services. What is the re sponse of the construction industry to the five-year, $600-million highways capital budget that the minister has recently announced? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): I had the great pleasure of being up in the Interlake, in Poplarfield, on the weekend to look at Highway 68, which is going to get the attention it deserves. I have been in Minnedosa constituency as well as Rivers, but we are getting a great reaction.

I just happen to have with me the latest edition of the Mani toba Heavynews entitled A Brighter Future. I will just quote a smal l part. It said: After years of lobbying governments and addressing the public with the increased need for sustained funding infrastructure, they are now seeing early tender

1304 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 calls and awards, planning on a five-year, $600- million commitment, indeed a brighter future for Manitoba. School Division Amalgamations Legal Proceedings Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): The Minister of Education just confessed to this House that he is in fact missing something, something we actually agree with him on, and that is: Could he please tell this House will the Government again tomorrow remand the court case that the Springfield School Parents Council has against the Government.

Are they again going to miss presenting a case like they have done once and planned on doing tomorrow as well? Point of Order Hon.

Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): The normal rules in terms of Question Period are very clear in terms of asking for information, but for the member to stand and, in this case, ask a matter related to a matter that is before the courts and ask for the minister to interfere in that, the members opposite, before they try and howl me down, should be aware in terms of any matter that is before the courts, in any part of legal process, it is not appropriate for this kind of questioning, not only within our rules but not appropriate for this member to stand in his place and try and use Ques tion Period for issues which ought better be raised, quite frankly, in debate in the Manitoba Legislature on this particular bill, rather than in Question Period.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): If the acting Government House Leader had taken the time to look in Beauchesne, he would have seen that it had to be before the judiciary. We have already admitted that it is not. The question was: Will the minister prevent it from being remanded tomorrow? [interjection] It is not. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Southdale, on the same point of order, with new information? Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to refer the Speaker back to about a year and a half ago when a question was posed to the First Minister in regard to a pending court case in regard to a civil court case that was going to be going to the courts, and the Government at that time objected saying that it was before the courts. The Speaker took it under advisement at that time-you, Mr. Speaker-and came back with a ruling saying that the question could be asked because it was not before the courts. I would remind the Speaker of that ruling. * (14:20) Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order, with new information? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Yes, Mr. Speaker, with new information. Beauchesne Citation 409(9) says, and I quote: 11 A question cannot deal with a matter that is before a court. 11 The Opposition House Leader specifically asked, and in fact in his retort to the Government House Leader asked us to prevent the remanding of a matter before the court. Now, before the court, Mr. Speaker, deals with matters- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

May I remind all honourable members a point of order is a very, very serious matter. I need to hear the words that are raised by the members that are up on points of order. So I ask for your full co-operation, please. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, from my understanding of Court of Queen's Bench and related rules and matters, a matter that is filed before the court, a matter that is a statement of claim, an action that is started, a defense to that action, are all matters before the court, not to be dealt with in accordance with this particular rule and subsection. Mr.

Speaker: The Official Opposition House Leader, with new information? Mr. Laurendeau: With further information, Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to refer to

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1305 Beauchesne 507(2): "In civil cases the convention does not apply until the matter has reached the trial stage." Mr. Speaker: I have heard from enough members to make a decision whether it is a point of order or not a point of order, so I will be making a decision in a few seconds. Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Deputy Government House Leader, Beauchesne's 507 states: "No settled practice has been developed in relation to civil cases, as the convention has been applied in some cases but not in others." In Montpetit and Marleau it states: As regards to subjudice convention and that the responsibility should pr incipally rest upon the member who asked the question and the minister to whom it is addressed.

The committee clarified further that while all members share in the responsibility of exercising this restraint, the Speaker is the final arbiter in determining whether a subject matter raised during the con sideration of Oral Questions is subjudice. Also, going to a ruling in 1995 by Speaker Dacquay, she states: Where comments were of a general nature and were on legal process, subjudice convention is a voluntary restraint. So the member can ask the question, and it is up to the minister if they choose to answer it or not. So the honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable minister wish to answer the question? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, as court documents have been filed, I believe it inap propriate to comment on the specifics of a legal case. Mr. Schuler: I ask the minister: Is it going to be the strategy of the Government to keep delaying this court case until it becomes irrelevant and thus stifling the parents even further? Mr. Caldwell: Across this great province of ours, hundreds of trustees, elected officials, locally elected officials-{interjection) Mr. Speaker: Order.

I am sure the honourable Member for Springfield would like to hear the answer to this question. I would ask the co operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Caldwell: As I was saying, across this province hundreds of trustees, locally elected officials, are to be praised for their good work in moving this process forward. In Springfield we are creating a new school division that will be Manitoba's second-largest rural division in terms of budget and enrolment with a strong, strong assessment base enabling it to provide excellent educational programs for some 6000 students.

We are building in this province opportunities for students now and in the future. School Division Amalgamations Legal Proceedings Mr. Mervin Tweed (furtle Mountain): We have heard the Minister of Education say that he refuses to answer questions in regard to the amalgamation issue because it is before the courts. He has also been quoted as saying that he wants school divisions to move forward on this issue and continue With amalgamation, because nothing is before the courts. I ask the minister today: Which statement does he support artd which statement is the public of Manitoba to believe? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, the public in Manitoba can . believe that the Doer government is the education government for Manitoba. This Government has worked hard to rebuild trust with educators, trust that was squandered by members opposite during their time in office. We have, as a Government, since day one engaged in extensive consultations with parents, teachers, trustees, children, communities around building educational excellence in this province. I myself have met a number of times with some of the members in the gallery that

1306 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 members opposite have pointed to and are playing to. * (14:30) The trustees of the new Sunrise School Division, the second-largest division in rural Manitoba, are to be praised for their good work. Mr. Tweed: Will the Minister of Education confirm that with

section 9.3 of this Bill 14, this new act, if it is left in this act that the people that are challenging the amalgamation, the people in Morris-Macdonald who are challenging in regard to the school division, will lose their rights to do so? Mr. Caldwell: We covered this point a little earlier. The first opportunity upon the passing of the Budget, at the first opportunity, we tabled Bill 14. I myself at second reading-we were speaking to it on this side of the House-urged members opposite to get this into committee so we could have some public debate. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, on a new question.

Will the minister confirm that after the passing of this act, or with no amendments, any awards made to the people of Manitoba concerned about education, those awards will be ignored by this Government because of this legislation? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I am mystified as to what the member is speaking to, to be quite frank, but I can tell you that I personally have been in a little over 150 schools around the province since being appointed minister. I dare say that may be as many schools as the ministers under the previous government visited in the entire 11 years.

We are, as a government, engaged in a very meaningful and real sense with every concerned Manitoban around building educational excel lence in our public school system for students now and into the future. That will be the hallmark of this Government throughout this mandate. Mr. Tweed: A new question, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister confirm that in his new act, under

section 21 (2)( c): any decision by a court on appeal from an award of the board specified in clause (

b) is of no force and effect as of the day of this decision? Mr. Caldwell: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the member read the act and that is indeed what is in it. I would urge members opposite again to get this bill into committee so we can have this meaningful discussion. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, on a new question. We have a Minister of Education that has been called to account by the Auditor of the province of Manitoba in regard to his handling of the TRAF. We have had a minister who acted outside of the act when he fired the board in the school division of Morris-Macdonald.

My question to the minister is: Will he now be prepared to change the name of this bill from Public Schools Modernization Act to the Minister of Education cover your butt act? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before recognizing the honourable First Minister, I would just like to remind all honourable members that we have students in the gallery and it is televised on TV. I would ask members to kindly choose your words carefully. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank you for your reminder that even though we are in an education debate there are students in this Chamber and there are kids that watch this debate. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba has had for three or four decades now a number of school divisions that have been put in place.

There have been changes in population, changes in community, changes in choices for children in courses that are available, changes in courses that are avail able for children, changes in languages, changes in many other aspects of education, but there had been no changes in the boundaries to reflect those changes that have taken place. We in essence have had a situation- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 1307 Mr. Doer: This act, an action of the Govern ment, takes recommendations that were made in a commission, modifies them to deal with a lot of the feedback that was received in the past- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer:-and modifies them with an adjustment and reduction of boundaries by about 33 percent in the province of Manitoba. This set of boundary changes affects 1 100 000 rate payers in Manit oba. It affects 200 000 parents and it affects tens of thousands of children.

It also, in this bill, contains an ability of the public to have protection from unnecessary increases in administrative costs. This bill not only provides predictability from the number of school divi sions in Manitoba, allows us to merge divisions in hopefully the most effective way, and there is no perfect way, but in the most effective- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: -allows the efforts to reduce taxes for school divisions and flatten those taxes from doubling that took place in the 1990s to a much more modest flattening and lowering of taxes.

This allows for this transition of a 33% reduction. It is not going from 50 or 100 divi sions down to 2 or 1, it is not just the status quo, it is a balanced approach. Yes, Mr. Speaker, change is difficult, change is challenging, but I am proud of the fact for the first time ever- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, this is a very serious matter. It is a very important policy issue. I can hardly hear myself speak from the heckling from members opposite. I would ask you and ask all of us to have order on important issues in this House. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on the same point of order? Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Sorry, Mr. Speaker, not on the same point of order. * (14:40) Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, it is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister to conclude, please. Mr.

Doer: Finally, for the first time ever, all Manitobans will have protection in

an act that will limit the amount of administrative costs to 4 percent, 4.5 percent, more money for the classrooms, less money for administration. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Laurendeau: I previously rose on Beauchesne 417 where I stated: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, you ruled that it was a dispute over the facts. This minister continues to not deal with the question that was put to him, and I would ask him to deal with the matter that is before the committee, not before the House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would ask all ministers to deal with the matter that is raised by the question. I would ask all ministers to please follow the citation in Beauchesne. ***

1308 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 Mr. Speaker: Has the honourable First Minister concluded his comments? Mr. Doer: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Order. Prior to going to members' statements, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Rivers Collegiate 40 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Jim Peirson and Mrs. Leslie McFadden. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilles hamm er).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS YM-YWCA Women of Distinction Awards Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): I had the pleasure of attending the YMCA-YWCA 2002 Women of Distinction A wards ceremony last night. Present were the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms. McGifford), other ministers, MLAs, and various dignitaries as part of the large crowd gathered to celebrate Winnipeg women. It was also rewarding to have many past winners of the awards present.

The Women of Distinction Awards recognize the often unheralded achievements of inspirational and devoted women who have made a true difference in our communities and given encouragement to others through their creativity, passion, leadership and dedication. These awards began in 1977 when members of the Winnipeg YWCA decided that a forum was needed for recognizing the often overlooked achievements of exceptional Winnipeg women. At last night's event, the 26th awards ceremony, nine women were honoured for a diverse range of activities in nine categories.

These women were: Young Woman of Distinc tion, Christine Langtry; Education, Training and Development, Beverley Zakaluk; Arts and Culture, Patricia E. Bovey; Business, Trades and Professions, Zorianna Hyworon; Science, Technology and the Environment, Val Buschau; Community Volunteerism, Gail Asper; Com munications and Public Relations, Linda Lee; Recreation, Sport and Active Living, Lisa Fraser-Gilmore; Health and Wellness, Jane Runner. The Gerrie Hammond Memorial Award of Promise was presented to Jocelyn Hirose for her strong commitment to her school and com munity.

We can all learn from these outstanding women's examples. They inspire us with their stories and show us how we can become involved in our community. They have added to the quality of life that we as Manitobans enjoy. They have earned our admiration and respect. I would like to offer congratulations to all of last night's winners, as well as those who were nominated for these prestigious awards. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr.

Speaker, I, too, would like to congratulate not only the winners of last night's Women of Distinction Awards but all of those who were nominated and all the work that went in to those nominations by many, many people throughout the province of Manitoba. Again, for the third year, I would like to express my disappointment that the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms. McGifford) has not stood up and made a ministerial statement. Obviously, for this Government, these Women of Distinction are not important enough to be recognized by the minister.

I would like to congratulate the nine winners who have already been named: Christine Langtry for the Young Woman of Distinction is someone that I know personally and I take great pride in supporting and congratulating, as well as all of the others; the recipient in the Education, Training and Development category, Beverley Zakaluk; the winner in Arts and Culture was Patricia Bovey; in Business, Trades

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1309 and the Professions, Zorianna Hyworon; in the category of Science, Technology and the Environment, Val Buschau; the recipient of the Community Voluntarism award was Gail Asper; in the category of Communications and Public Relations, Linda Lee; for Recreation, Sport and Active Living, Lisa Fraser-Gilmore; and, finally, in the category of Health and W ellness, the winner was Jane Runner.

I would also like to extend special congratulations to the winner of the Gerrie Hamm ond Memorial Award of Promise, Jocelyn Hirose, who is a young woman in Senior 4 who attends Miles Mac Collegiate. Congratulations to all, and I would hope that next year the minister will recognize these women in the appropriate manner. Telehealth Program Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, patients and mental health service providers throughout Manitoba will now have faster access to psychiatric specialists through the Manitoba Telehealth video conferencing network.

The official launch of the network at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre was held yesterday in Selkirk by Manitoba Health, the Selkirk Mental Health Centre officials and network repre sentatives. Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to represent the Government at this launch. The Health Minister (Mr. Chomiak) officially launched the network, which uses state-of-the art technology, on February 25 of this past year. This initiative further expands our Government's ability to deliver quality mental health care services to residents of Manitoba.

The initiative includes 23 Telehealth sites across the province and is funded as a two-year cost-share initiative with $1.5 million from Manitoba Health and $3 million from Health Canada. Participants of both ends of the video conferencing network can talk to, hear and see each other. With the addition of this technology at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, the assessment and information sharing will be improved for all involved in the treatment and care of those receiving services from the centre. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba is a perfect setting for Telehealth technology as currently up to 30 percent of Manitobans have to travel to access a specialist's care. Beyond reducing travel time for patients, this Telehealth Network decreases professional isolation, improves access to con tinuing education for rural health care providers. It provides better planning for patients returning to their communities and saves health for health care providers. Increasing the access to doctors and the opportunity for face-to-face consultation can play a major role in early diagnosis and treat ment for Manitobans.

This is a significant part of our plan towards the prevention of illness and the promotion of wellness for all Manitobans. Thank you. Manitoba Day Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, Sunday, May 12 is not only Mother's Day, which is a very special celebration, but it is also a very special birthday for our province of Manitoba. Manitoba celebrates its 132nd birthday. Throughout Manitoba, heritage organi zations, the Historic Resources Branch and schools are teaming up to create heritage projects to commemorate this birthday.

These projects have been designed to educate about different periods in Manitoba's history, as well as demonstrate a variety of aspects contained in Manitoba's rich culture. As Manitobans, we are blessed with a province that is culturally diverse and possesses a unique and fascinating history. Manitoba Day benefits all of us because it gives us the opportunity both to celebrate our province as it is in 2002 and also to reflect back on the series of events that made Manitoba what it is today. I would like to extend my best wishes to the 35 individuals who will be participating in the various projects.

This will be a tremendous learning experience, one that will enrich their lives as they continue to reside in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope that on May 12, Manitobans of all ages and from all diff erent regions take some time to celebrate and learn

1310 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May9, 2002 more about this wonderful province we call home. Thank you. * (1 4:50) Buffalo Barbeque Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assinibe»ia): I rise to inform all members, indeed all of Manitoba and those in the province during the long weekend about the Optimists' 38th Annual Buffalo Barbecue that will be held on May 17, 18, 19 and 20 at Heritage Victoria Community Centre at the comer of Ness and Sturgeon.

This event will be occurring in the wonderful constituency of Assiniboia, and, therefore, it is nice to see that the whole part of the city will focus in this area of the city this weekend. The Buffalo Barbecue is sponsored by the Optimist Club of Assiniboia. A number of excellent activities including a midway, bands, fireworks and all sorts of other events like the parade will once again be part of this event. The Buffalo Barbecue parade will be held on the Monday and go from the old Unicity site all the way to the Heritage Park Community Centre.

This a great event that will highlight and focus attention on Assiniboia, and I would like to publicly thank the Optimists, the many community volunteers, Heritage Park Com munity Centre and the businesses who have contributed to this area. I would also like to invite all members, indeed all Manitobans to this wonderful event. It is truly full of family events. It has face-painting. It has buf falo burgers. It has a lot of different activities that are occurring that should be interesting, not only to the whole family, but to everyone. So please come out and enjoy the fun in Assiniboia. Thank you very much.

MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Apology Request Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): I rise on a matter that occurred in this House yesterday, a matter that cuts to the quick of my being, a matter that you witnessed, a matter that involves myself and the Member for Riel (Ms. Asper). The member approached you, while in the Chair, and myself, while socializing with you. She made the description as to my conduct yesterday afternoon as being despicable. Mr. Speaker, despicable. Let me read from the Webster's dictionary: Based on evil, off en sive to the senses, repulsive, disgusting, cheap, worthless.

This is how the member for Riel describes the honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie. Perhaps the Chamber is listening. Mr. Speaker, I have been a member of this House for a little more than four years. I have been raised to be respectful. I treat this position as MLA for Portage Ia Prairie as one of privilege, one that has only been experienced by 17 people of the tens of thousands of people who have lived in Portage Ia Prairie over 13 0 years. To be referred to as being despicable is truly reprehensible and extremely objectionable and I think should be recognized in this House with an apology.

Throughout my tenure here, I have taken it upon myself, as most members have, to recog nize the rules of this House and to acknowledge protocols which have been accepted over the existence of this Chamber. I believe that this Chamber should be reflective of our community as a whole. We enter this Chamber. It should be one where we reflect the moral values and the very fabric of the communities which we represent. It is vital that we do so. Yesterday to be described in that manner is beyond my understanding.

I want to acknowl edge that there is a member from Assiniboia that is chuckling and finding this address humorous. Throughout my tenure here, I believe that it is imperative and incumbent upon the individual in this Chamber to have knowledge and under standing of the rules of the House and to reflect upon those rules in the manner in which they conduct themselves. I know that the record will not reflect the dialogue addressed to me by the Member for Riel. However, Sir, you were present and witness to the text of her address to me. The text to her address was apparently emanating from a

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1311 ruling which you had made earlier in the day, a ruling that I was involved with in bringing to your attention on a point of order. This ruling, as are all rulings, is one that is reflective from yourself upon precedent and understanding of the rules. The Member for Assiniboia, who is finding this address humor ous, was at the point called to order. Point of Order Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): I am sitting here shaking my head. I do not know what he is saying that I find it amusing. I do not like it being said for actions that I am not doing.

I am not doing anything incorrect. I am shaking my head in disbelief. I am not laughing. I am shaking my head because I do not know where this is coming from, a personal attack, and I am just shaking my head. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Assiniboia, he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Faurschou: Mr. Speaker, and again, playing games, as it was referred to yesterday by other members of the Government side of the House. All of this, Mr.

Speaker, is extremely stressful on myself, and I do not appreciate having to stand this afternoon and use a very rarely used portion of our Order Paper. It is one that is treated with seriousness, and comes with a great deal of reflection and understanding that one only has one opportunity to rise during a session. So I treat this matter very seriously. We, in this Chamber must look at each one of ourselves as being that of our community and being able to return to our community proud of our conduct, understanding our conduct, and able to defend our conduct. For the Member for Riel (Ms.

Asper) to return to her constituency and to express to her constituents that she finds the member from Portage la Prairie as a despicable individual, I think she would be very hard-pressed to do so, and I would look forward to the debate in any forum. Mr. Speaker, I have lived my life from the position of believing that one should act as a leader through his or her conduct. One must be responsible for that conduct, and, therefore, reflecting upon each and every action that one undertakes, physical or verbal.

I have tried in every fashion to attempt to be respectful of every member within this Chamber because we come here as privileged individuals from across the province, a privilege that less than one-one hundredth of all Manitobans will ever have the opportunity to experience. So, indeed, it is a privilege, one that should not be taken lightly. Mr. Speaker, you ruled in favour of the point of order, and I was taken to task on that point of order. Each and every one of us is provided for by the Clerk's office a rule book, an under standing of protocols and procedures that are adhered to within this Chamber.

We are also provided with instruction from the Sergeant-at Arms. We are also counselled by those from the Clerk's office. We have had opportunity to speak and look to your wisdom and understanding of the rules and learn from those. All of these opportunities are afforded each and every member of this Legislative Assembly. * (1 5: 00) Clearly, to attempt to talk to me in your presence was an effort to reflect upon your ruling, and to have you present at that position and to be privy to what her feelings were about your ruling, only I was the individual she was speaking to.

You explained to her very clearly an understanding of the rules, an understanding that I am certain the Member for Riel should have at this time. She is obviously a senior individual, a mature individual and has now tenure within this Chamber and should know of the rules. So then why did she approach you, Mr. Speaker, and myself to use this type of language of expression when it clearly was a reflection on your ruling and taking that in almost a very disputive type of manner? j Why did she attetnpt to do so and then after clear explanation by yourself acknowledge that perhaps she was in error and perhaps that the

1312 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 ruling and the understanding and the involve ment of the Member for Assiniboia could in fact have a drink for his consumption within the Chamber? The understanding was that it was just not to advertise. Mr. Speaker, she retired after that explanation, obviously feeling a little embar rassed, perhaps a little ashamed of being once again called to task for her lack of understanding and ignorance because this is not the first time that she has brought her ignorance to this Chamber.

The people of Portage Ia Prairie are still looking for an apology from the Member for Riel for bringing to this Chamber a statement calling Portage Ia Prairie the poverty capital of Manitoba and then lamenting on facts that were dated. The Winnipeg Social Planning Council came out in the press and expressed that the member's statements may have been true for a short period of time but were not true at the time to which she made the statement.

A little background behind the statement of calling Portage Ia Prairie the poverty capital of Canada-the particular statistics which the honourable Member for Riel was referring to were the statistics that took place one month after Portage Ia Prairie residents extended their hands of friendship to the former residents of the Waterhen First Nation. They came to Portage Ia Prairie homeless. We provided homes. We provided places to stay. Yes, they went onto the roll book as being those in need of social assistance, income assistance, and we are called to the carpet by the ignorance of the Member for Riel.

Again, she shows ignorance in another fashion here. I believe that the Member for Riel should stand in this House, apologize to the people of Portage Ia Prairie for her ignorance and apologize to you, Sir, the Lieutenant-Governor, as represented here by the Mace, and all members in this Chamber. To call me, as the Member for Portage Ia Prairie and my actions throughout this tenure within this Chamber as being despicable is in fact itself despicable. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: Any other grievances? [interjection] Before I recognize the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would just like to let members know that I know we are kind of working in the dark, but Government Services has assured us that the lights will be coming back within an hour. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): After careful reflection and having an opportunity to talk to a couple of my colleagues on both sides of the House, I would like to apologize to the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) for any words which I might have said which have caused any concern. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order that I had taken under advisement, the honourable member has cleared up the matter. That should take care of the matter, and I thank the honourable member for that. Point of Order Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order, by the way. I hesitated to interrupt the proceedings as the honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) was in full flight on his grievance, and therefore I decided to wait until he was done.

But Beauchesne's 168 was very clear, and the member on three or four occasions makes reference to the Speaker participating in a particular conversation or being present. But Beauchesne's 16 8 was very clear: that the actions of the Speaker cannot be criticized inci dentally in debate or upon any form of pro ceeding except by way of a substantive motion. I would just like to caution all honourable members, when we are rising when particular grievances are in debate that, Mr. Speaker, you in the office that you hold, we may not be critical of your presence or indeed any part of the conversation.

So I just raise that on a point of order, Sir. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Deputy Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Steve Ashton (Deputy House Leader): On the same point order. I thank the member for those comments, because I was tempted to rise on a similar matter.

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1313 I think it is very important to recognize that indeed there are no on-the-record references to conversations with the Speaker. If one refers back to the evolution of the Speaker's role in Parliament, I think the members opposite will see that. I would caution members, as well, too, Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, in terms of relaying what are essentially private discussions in the House, particularly when other members who were party to those discussions are not here.

I realize members may have frustrations and issues of concern, but the appropriate way in which to raise those matters is through points of order, in which case there is an opportunity for the member who is involved in that discussion to then be part of that point of order, too. I realize the member may have had some frustrations with events that occurred yesterday, but it is usually not a practice in this House to relate private conversations of any kind in this way and particularly matters involving the Speaker. So I concur with the point of order raised by the eminent former Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, on the same point of order? Mr. Faurschou: Yes, on the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. I believe that I did refer to you on, I believe, several occasions and add my apologies, and I wish to suggest that it was inadvertent, and I apologize for doing so. * (15: 10) Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Carman, I thank him for raising that point of order because Beauchesne is very clear that the actions of the Speaker cannot be criticized incidentally in debate or upon any form of proceedings except by way of a substantive motion. The honourable member is absolutely correct. I was going to review Hansard and then I was going to deal with the matter. I wanted to review Hansard to make sure that I heard or that Hansard recorded what I was going to say.

But, because of the retraction of the honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie, I thank him for that, and that should deal with the matter. So I thank all members who were involved in assisting in the ruling. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Emerson, on a new point of order. Point of Order Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, on a new point of order. I am just observing that the lights in this Chamber have dimmed very signif icantly, and I am sitting here wondering whether that might be an effect of the Government of Manitoba shorting Manitoba Hydro by $288 million. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Deputy Govern ment House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Not only does the member not have a point of order, I suspect it may be a power surge caused by all those export sales to the United States. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Emerson, he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Speaker: Any other grievances? An Honourable Member: No. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS * (15:10 ) Hon.

Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin), that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to.

1314 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May9, 2002 COMMI TTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSERVATION Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Estimates of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will be continuous consideration of the Esti mates of the Department of Conservation. When this

section last met, there had been agreement to skip ahead and ask questions on issues dealing with drainage and diking. Is that still the will of the committee? We are on line 3. Regional Operations (

h) Fire Program

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, page 46. What is the will of the committee? Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): I believe I requested of the minister that there were some colleagues of mine that are in and out of the different committees currently operating to be able to come back and ask some questions if the minister concurred, and we can do that, quite frankly, on the Minister's Salary at the con clusion of the Estimates. I am prepared to see the wheels tum for a little while anyway. Mr. Chairperson: I understand it is the will of the committee to continue on page 46, 3.(h)(l) . Agreed? [Agreed] 3. Regional Operations (

h) Fire Program

(1) Salaries and Em ployee Benefits $4,6 17,500- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $7,81 4,900. Shall the line pass? Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): On this line, were there other funds that were used out of emergency funds? This is the base Fire Pro gram-salaries, benefits. Can I ask on this line how many additional dollars had to be acquired to fight fires in the province last year? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): Mr. Chair, my information that for last year-1 think I was about to answer this question yesterday, actually-the base for the Fire Program budget is $12 million so that was spent last year.

Then there was another $1 7 million that was spent from the emergency budget. Mr. Cummings: That would have been all of the money that the department needed out of emergency funds. Mr. Lathlin: Yes, I am told that normally it is about $15 million that is needed, on the average, from the Emergency Fund. * (15: 20) Mr. Chairperson: I will read line 3. Regional Operations (

h) Fire Program

(2) Other Expend itures $7,81 4,900-pa ss. 3.(

j) Office of Drinking Water

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $8 12,700. Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, perhaps this is as good a time as any for me to ask the minister to, if he can, supply us with an idea of some of the special internal task forces, as I talked about, within the department that have been established to do a number of different things. There is the land stewardship group. There is, I do not know if he ha5 a special task force on the drinking water problems, monitoring. Is there a special task force established, for instance, on the east Lake Winnipeg resource development examina tions?

I would also like to include the Aboriginal council that the minister has referred to. The request was if the minister could provide the committee with a listing of these internal committees, their staffing and their costs. If you have it in printed form, that would be acceptable; I would accept that in that way. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, yes, I can indicate to the member that, for example, the east side round table has been established. The members have been appointed, and we have appointed the chairperson there, Phil Fontaine.

The amount of money that has been committed for that initiative is $400,000, with a staff commitment of 2.5. I should say that from the 2.5, 0.5 of that is a secondment arrangement with the Manitoba Model Forest organization. The remaining two person years are internal secondments. I believe, Mr. Chairperson, he also asked about the Aboriginal Resource Council. The Aboriginal Resource Council is comprised of some 14 members. Our commitment for the Aboriginal Resource Council is $50,000 and with a staff commitment of 1 person year. The Manitoba round table. I believe the member is familiar with the round table.

The

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1315 amount of funds committed to the round table is $75,000; staff is four. With those four staff person years, that includes staff time from five other contributing departments. The provincial water strategy steering com mittee. A commitment of $20,000 was made, and two staff years are helping out there. The Assiniboine basin advisory committee. $5 1,10 0 is committed there and- An Honourable Member: $5 1 ,000? Mr. Lathlin: $5 1, 100. An Honourable Member: How much? Mr. Lathlin: $5 1 ,000, $5 1.1.

Well, maybe the best way I can answer that with respect to staff years is, depending on the level of activity, we could have one person working there, and then sometimes there will be nobody working there, depending on the activity that is being carried out. There is also the Lake Manitoba regulation review advisory committe e. There we have committed $15 0,000 and one staff year. I should also say that this includes some remuneration for the chair for that advisory committee. Lake Winnipeg Management Board, $20,000 has been committed, two staff years.

The West Region Tribal Council co-management agreement initia tive. We have not yet determined how much money is being committed there, because the way it has been working thus far is they have been doing their work. There are meetings with us. I also believe that they were able to access some federal funding to help them along with the develop ment of the MOU. OCN management agree ment. The same thing there; there is really no money identified yet. I believe they might have also accessed some federal dollars. The MMF, so far, we have not committed, but meetings are ongoing.

The bovine tuberculosis management task force, there is $10 0,500 committed, 1. 5 staff years. The Endangered Species Advisory Com mittee, $6,000 was committed there, and one staff year. The procurement implementation committee, there have been no funds committed there, but we have 0.25 staff years helping out. The next one is Northern Regional Waste Management Committee. Mr. Chair, $5 ,000 has been committed there, and 0.5 staff years. The Lake Winnipeg Fishermen's Advisory Board, $1 0,000 was committed, and one staff year attached to it. That is the list that I have, Mr.

Chairperson, in response to the member's request for a list of task forces. Mr. Cummings: Would the minister care to table the individuals who are filling these positions that he has just reviewed with us? We have identified the dollars. I wonder if the minister-! do not need it today, but if he would be prepared to table the list of people who are on these committees and advisory bodies. Mr. Lathlin: Yes. We can provide a list. I believe the member was asking for a list of members on those committees and boards advisory committees. We can do that. Mr.

Cummings: When was the last time the Assiniboine advisory committee met? Mr. Lathlin: The Assiniboine basin advisory committee, I believe the member is referring to, that particular committee, the last time they met was a little over a year ago. During last year they did not meet at all. * (15: 30) Mr. Enos: We are now dealing in an area of the department's activity that is extremely important to all Manitobans, possibly made more important in the last little while because of situations developing in other parts of the country. I am referring to, of course, the safety of our drinking water.

I will just ask a quick lead-off question. I note that there is a substantial increase here in the Other Expenditures in this division of some $700,000-800,000, from $1 .1 27 million allo cated last year, that has been bumped up to $1.8 million this year. Can the minister provide the committee with an explanation for that increase? Is that essentially more staff to enable the department to carry out more inspections? Is it part of the licensing staff? Just a general overview of what accounts for that increase.

131 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the increase that the member is referring to. is as a result of the recommendations of Doctor Kettner, who did a study on drinking water, anq presented a report. Almost all costs are related to new staff, mainly public health inspectors. Mr. Eons: I will ask the same question that my colleague has been asking all throughout this part of the Estimates. What is the current va cancy rate in this division; in this section? Mr. Lathlin: I think the member probably knows that this is a brand-new initiative.

There are presently 13 vacancies out of 18. Mr. Eons: Well, I hope that, as the minister has indicated to other questions, his goal is to fill these vacancies, at least to the 3% level that he himself has expressed as hopefully an achievable goal, because Manitobans do expect all of us to ensure their drinking water. I want to raise another matter that is very much at heart here or part of this responsibility. I am delighted that the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) has joined the committee for this period of time, because it involves her concerns as well.

It is not my intention to tum the discussions of the Estimates here into agricultural discussions, but there has been and is an ongoing concern throughout Manitoba with respect to the significant expansion of the hog industry and the construction of the large hog barns with the quality of drinking water, or ground water pol lution, just like that.

Your department, sir, has been good enough, for instance, to forward to my research assistants a listing of some 26, 27, I suppose closer to 30, communities that have come under boil water advisories or outright boil orders over the past year, year and a half, and I thank staff for that information. I want to ask the minister right off: Can the minister indicate to me: Has there been in any one of these circumstances that, where the department has found it necessary to issue a boil order or a boil advisory, the responsible pollut ing agency has been specifically traced back to a large mega hog bam? Mr.

Lathlin: In response to the member's question, there is the list that I have here, dated April 16 . I believe the member has the same copy of the list. The list I have is Manitoba communities under boil water advisories or boil orders. There is not one that is directly traceable or can be attributed to large-scale hog opera tions. This does not mean an absolute clean bill of health. However, it is still encouraging, I should add. I will give just maybe three ex amples where we had boil water advisories or boil orders.

For example, at Rock Lake beach cottages, probable cause there was suspected poor well construction. In Balmoral, July 21, 2000, the investigation showed failed septic systems as being the probable cause; poorly constructed wells and surface water seeping into groundwater by uncapped drainage wells. So it gives you an idea of, generally, what the reasons are. Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the minister, that does not necessarily mean that everything is 100 percent okay.

I think what it does mean is that the officials that had been entrusted from your department, from Agri culture, I still call it the former Environment Department, I am referring to the technical review committee that oversees the plans of any major hog operation of size. In fact, I have complimented this Government. It used to be a voluntary review of these plans, which most aggressive and progressive proponents of hog barns would avail themselves of, but your Government made that mandatory, and that is a good move.

It tells me, essentially, that these senior civil servants, these experts, know what they are doing when they are reviewing plans, when they are citing them, when they are approving of the construction, including the lagoons, when they are approving the manure management plans about how the manure has to be responsibly spread over the appropriate numbers of acres. The fact that today you cannot point your finger and specifically blame one of the large mega barns for direct pollution of our drinking water supplies says a great deal. I want to expand on that, because the industry is under severe attack.

We should be mindful of this, because this is one of the few bright spots in agriculture. We are just undertaking a debate in agriculture now as a result of the new U.S. farm bill. This industry is now one of the few bright spots in Manitoba's

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1317 agriculture. It employs thousands and thousands of people, and it is under attack and it can be lost. * (15:40) In fact, I regret to say that your Government is funding an organization that wants to wipe out these ten thousands of jobs and the large hog farms in this province. When I say under attack, I will just show you, just in the last week's Winnipeg Free Press: Province Pigging Out On Swine-regrettably, unfortunately.

Due to the action taken by the previous administration and myself, as Minister of Agriculture, in creating a more flexible climate for hog production, our hog production has still grown substantially. But it is coming to an end, and part of it is because of this very issue. Here, in last week's, I believe last week's, Wednesday or Thursday paper, we had this complaint about an individual in a district, where an entire local council has been voted out of office; to be replaced by an anti-livestock coun cil.

I am talking about Piney, where the munici pality has now placed a moratorium on any and all future hog expansion in that council, and that is being replicated across the province. I predict by this fall's election, there will be very few councils left that are pro-agriculture. It is largely because of the fearmongering and the scare that is created in the paper virtually on a weekly basis. This gentleman here says: "Just last week, Bezditny, who has lived in the area for decades, took a sample of his well water to a lab in Winnipeg for testing.

He was told that the water contained elevated levels of colif orm bacteria, and now has to boil it before using it to cook or drink." Then he makes this statement: 'I never had this problem before the barns,' he said. A month ago, in March, a major story on the hog question in Manitoba: Livestock Becomes An Election Issue. This is where the reeve of the municipalities is resigning, councillors are resigning, and it is quite coincidentally, it is a story pro and against it. But up against it on the same page: Water Tested For E.

Coli in the Birds Hill Gravel Pits-does not identify any source, does not fault a hog bam for it. But the editorial placing of these two stories, people reading the stories say: Well, here we are, the damn hogs are polluting our water in the Birds Hill area. The fact of the matter is, we cannot, despite the fact that you have a list-we have some 30 instances where we have had to impose caution with respect to use of our drinking water. You have just put on the record, sir, that there has not been a single identified case that is traceable to a large hog bam.

So I am asking the department, and I am asking the Government, to come more vigorously to the defence of this industry. I appreciate that there are other problems with the industry. It is true, as honourable mem bers like to remind me. Another side product of the hog production still does not smell like raspberry jam, but the food nutritionists who are working on this scheme will resolve that problem. Let us not confuse an issue which is an unacceptable, to some, agriculture odour, from an environmental danger. That is what is happening.

That is what an organization like Hog Watch Manitoba, which I understand got $50,000 from this Government, has: a sole purpose of shutting down the hog industry in the province of Manitoba, and with it thousands and thousands of jobs. Every 2000 hogs raised provide six jobs in the province of Manitoba. So I am asking the department; I am asking you, sir, as minister, responsible minister, when you issue boil orders, or when you have cause to express concern. I appreciate that it is sometimes a difficult science to be precise about.

There are many causes for ground water pollution, I would suspect, but, by far, the largest cause is our own human activity with septic tanks that get overcrowded in an area; get saturated. I expect other agricultural practices, the beef industry, the chemical industry.

I happen to know that it was a concern to me, as Minister of Agriculture, years ago, that our soil specialists, for instance, identified rich Portage Plains area, where we have our most intensive vegetable growth, as being one of the most seriously polluted areas for nitrogen leaching to levels which became of concern to us because of the heavy application of chemical fertilizers in the intensive farming of vegetables. * (15:50)

131 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 As far as John Doe reading the paper, with the help of militant, well-funded, government funded, I might say, activists; they blame every incidence of water pollution· on the hog industry. That simply is not fair, that simply is not fair. If they succeed, as they are succeeding, you will watch this industry dwindle .. That is one of the few things that we have going for us in Manitoba.

Partly because of the elimination of the Crow, now that it costs our grain farmers just about triple what it cost them prior to August 1, 1995, to ship their grain to saltwater ports for export, we have to feed it either to cattle, to hogs or to poultry. That is the future of farming for Manitoba, and this division of your department could be a vital and important assist to it, not to whitewash or be an apologist for any part of the industry. Your responsibility is to ensure the safety of our water supply.

I would like to see you do that in a manner and way that, at least to some extent, sets out the factual information as distinct from the outright misrepresentation and propaganda that we see that is intimidating rural councils throughout Manitoba. Councils across this province are passing moratoriums on any future hog production. They are passing by-laws far more stringent than those that were passed by the provincial government, and are still, to this day, among the most stringent in the country for fear of not doing enough to safeguard water supplies. So, Mr.

Minister, I make a specific appeal to you, I would like somebody to tell me-the only trouble is you have 13 vacancies in the staff in this complement-but I would like somebody to go out to Piney and to Mr. Bezditny's well, and find out what the cause of his pollution problem is. He has attributed it to hog barns in a very public way and the Free Press has attributed it. I would like to find out, I would like at least a disclaimer or let your colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) be able to put in disclaimers, that hogs were not responsible for the E. coli tested in the homes around the Birds Hill area and the gravel pits area. I am going to be taking up this matter. This matter is, I think, of more and direct concern to the Minister of Agriculture, but she needs your assistance in this regard. It should be of concern to the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) for the thousands of jobs that are at stake, and there are thousands of jobs at stake.

If it were just a benign kind of thing, I would not be so exercised about it, but, I can, for the last two and a half years, this has been a mounting thing. There has been an

article like this in the papers, virtually every other week. In the case of my colleague, the member from Emerson, who was here yesterday in the committee, his whole rural council of Piney just walked away from their jobs, and that constituency is now represented by totally non farm people, whose first action was, no . more livestock in that municipality and that is spread ing across the province. When that happens, and it is based on misinformation, on outright fear mongering and a totally unacceptable bad rap being given to an industry, I would suggest to you, Mr.

Minister, having concerns, there are many First Nations groups that should be considering the involvement in the hog industry on some of the spaces and wide open lands that they occupy in different places. I simply ask you, though, that where pos sible, I know it is not always immediately ready to pinpoint the source of pollution, but I would ask you to redouble your efforts to, simply not to publicize, to spend a bit of time. Because of this action, it seems to me it is a little bit more important that the public hears.

I would like to know, it is my constituency, Balmoral, where a boil order closed down a couple of schools in my constituency; boil orders. People do not know. They see a hog bam going up eight miles distant, and they blame that hog bam for that. I would like, among the resources that you have in the department, simple notices to come forward from time to time. The department sends their inspectors out. They either approve of the water supplies, or, if they do not, they put a boil order on it. When they come back three weeks later or six weeks later, the situation is rectified.

There ought to be a little notice saying why the order was put on in the first instance, either local or domestic septic tanks, municipal lagoon sludge, which is another

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1319 main offender, or the agricultural feed lot, beef feed lot; or if chemicals from chemical fertilizers have been arrived at. It is extremely important to the hog industry, Mr. Minister, that they be treated fairly in the question of ground water pollution and the safety of our drinking water. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the case that the member is raising, I just want to tell him that the department did not support the contention that Mr.

Bezditny's well was contaminated by livestock We did not support his contention, and we said so. The problem is the newspaper chose not to report it. In fact, Mr. Bezditny's sampling procedure, according to our people, may have been inappropriate, and he was advised so. The way he sampled may have compromised the integrity of whatever he was sampling. Staff advised Mr. Bezditny on the proper sampling procedures. They suggested to him that his well be resampled and, in fact, offered to inspect his well if contamination was confirmed.

I want to advise the member that, I guess the way I would put it is, in my job as the Minister of Conservation, we have to take a balanced approach. We cannot go too much on one side and too much on the other side. I think, so far, we have not had to take any real action against anybody. As far as the group that was funded by government, again, you know, I want to defend that by saying that this Government wants to be inclusive with other groups. I know that these people will express their views and concerns and so forth. It was the Eco-Network that was being funded by government in the amount of $50 ,000.

Hey, you know, they are there; we have to work with them. That is my view on that. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): Item 12.3. Regional Operations

G) Office of Drinking Water

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, $8 12,700-p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures, $1,009,400-p ass; Resolution 12.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $47,597,900 for Conservation, Regional Opera tions, $47,5 97,900 for the fiscal year ending the 31st day ofM arch, 2003. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chairman , this item should not pass. We have been spending the last hour and most of previous day looking through Regional Operations.

Despite the statements that the minister has put on the record, and I think he knew at the time that he put them on the record, there is a continuing and ongoing shortage of front-line personnel in the various regions; and while he says that he wants to put the people out that are going to be in front of the public, that are going be front-line personnel being able to deal with the day-to-day operations of the department, sadly, the vacancy rates that he is running in this area do not substantiate his statement. * (16:00) There was a lot of press on the office of the drinking water.

I mean, everywhere you tum the Government was all of a sudden going to give us purified water every tap we turned on, because we had a new office. Now we find out that we have 13 out of 18 staff members that are not yet in place, and we have a budget that has been allocated, but only a small number over this past year that have been re-allocated. When we talk about the staffing of this area, in the notes it indicates that they will be transf erred out of other areas. That tells me that we are going to end up with shortages in other areas.

So it is our contention that the minister has dropped the ball on these front-line responsi bilities, where the people in Manitoba see the NROs, where they see the enforcement respon sibilities being carried out, where they see the public relations responsibilities being carried out. I think that this minister needs to be held accountable and that the front-line workers need to receive the support that they deserve and have the jobs filled so they can do the job in the coming year.

Over the past time this area has gradually been whittled away at in terms of vacancies, and I suggest that until the minister can prove he is going to fill these vacancies appropriately-he has been allocated the budget. The budget is much the same as it was before. That tells me that these vacancies were there last year. I reject this budget until we can have further verification. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): So

section 12.3, resolve that there be granted to Her

13 20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May9, 2002 Majesty a sum not exceeding $4 7,597,900 for Conservation, Regional Operations, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2003. Voice Vote The Acting Chairperson (lVIr. Struthers): All those in favour of the passing of the resolution, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): All those against. Some Honourable Members: Nay. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): In my view, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): I think we should do a count-out vote here, Mr. Chair.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): Do you have the support of another member? Mr. Laurendeau: I have got the support of about eight members. It outnumbers three the last time I checked. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): A recorded vote has been requested. We will go to the Chamber to count the vote. The conunittee is recessed. The committee recessed at 4:04p.m. The committee resumed at 5:15 p.m. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Chairperson: The hour being after 5 p.m., the committee rise. FINANCE * (15 :20) Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Conunittee of Supply, please come to order.

This afternoon this

section of the Conunittee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Depart ment of Finance. Considerations of these Estimates left off on page 86 of the Estimates book. Resolution 7.4. Taxation. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Madam Chairperson, I was going to continue I think where we left off yesterday at five in regard to concerns from constituents, the Home Builders' Association, contractors and renovators, on the new tax on wages for people in plumbing and electrical wiring.

The point at which we left off yesterday, the honourable minister said he would provide me with the letter that he had used to attempt to create an understanding. I, at the same time, tabled four pages of notes used by the Workers Compensation Board, I guess, as a formula for deciding what percentage was labour. So my esteemed colleague is also interested in addressing this, but I think before we do that, we would just like to hear the explanation that the honourable minister said he would put forward. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): just want to give the backgrounds of this issue.

The Mechanical Contractors Association of Manitoba asked for the Department of Finance to work with them on what they called a PST review committee meeting. The first meeting was January 11 , 2000, and they met in the Mechanical Contractors Association board room at around noon.

Present at the meeting were Mitch Zajac from Mikkelsen-Coward & Co.; John Schubert, McCaine Electric; Dan Gusztak, EIW Construction Services; Ian Hendry, Allco Electrical; Clarkson at Taxation Audit Branch, one of our people; Brad Refvic, who is with us today from Taxation Division; Jack Cununing, Construction Association of Rural Manitoba; Perry Snedden, Neepawa Plumbing & Heating; Monique Nemberg, Neepawa Plumbing &

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1321 Heating; Ron Hambley, Winnipeg Construction Association; Gervin Greasley, Winnipeg Construction Association, now retired; Fred Nicholson, Mechanical Contractors Association of Manitoba; and Linda Gransden, the recording secretary. The purpose of the meeting was to find common ground for a better method of applying the PST on tangible personal property.

At that time, at that meeting, the Winnipeg Construction Association, and the minutes show this, indi cated they would contact the Manitoba Home Builders' Association to obtain information on the value of housing construction. So there was an undertaking taken there by the Winnipeg Construction Association to contact the Home Builders' Association about this issue. That is January 11 of 2000.

Then on December 4 of 2000, which would be several months later-it is sometimes confus ing, January to December-they wrote me a letter, the Mechanical Contractors Association of Manitoba, Marcel Brissette, president of the association. I can provide copies of all this material. They opened up that letter by saying, the topic was the PST on real property tangible personal property contracts. The construction industry in Manitoba is encountering significant problems applying the current confusing system of collection of PST for projects that involve both real property and tangible personal property.

We believe the changes are urgently needed. The problems in clude difficulty in determining what constitutes real property versus tangible personal property, cumbersome accounting processes to account for equipment and materials, and an almost uni versal lack of understanding among contractors regarding the system of taxation applying to such a project. The result, and I am quoting just selectively here, is lost taxation revenue and a high cost of administration both to the construction industry and government. It has even affected the contract bidding process.

In a number of documented cases, one contractor received a contract over another simply due to an error in calculating the PST. Unfortunately, this was only discovered following an audit by the Finance Department long after projects were complete. So that really was the industry saying to us that the uneven application and the confusing understanding of how this tax should apply has resulted in some contractors losing contracts, and they wanted the playing field leveled. So I think it is very important to understand that, that this whole review of this source of taxation was initiated by the industry itself.

Once again, I will give you that letter. Just to go on, it is clear that this is a serious problem both for the construction industry and for those who administer the system for gov ernment and that something must be done.

From our discussions, they go on to say, we feel confident that it is feasible to development a simpler system to apply PST on these types of construction projects that would be easy to understand and apply, cost less to administer both by the construction industry and govern ment, create a level playing field for contractors by ensuring the PST is being applied the same on all bids, and collect at least the same amount of tax revenue and most likely more with improved compliance.

A number of solutions were considered, ranging from the exemption of all installations involving the taxation of TPP, that is, tangible personal property, to applying the PST on all construction projects. Then they go on to say: We recognize that your Government has made a commitment to work with business in a co operative mann er to strengthen our province's economic climate. We request that your Govern ment support this initiative by directing your department to work with the industry to develop a solution in time for the 2001 Budget.

Well, we obviously did not meet that deadline, but that was the initiation of the process after the initial meeting. Then there was the letter that was sent to me by the Home Builders' Association. On May 1 of this year I replied to that letter to Gerry Trottier, the president. I indicated to them that over a year ago the construction industry requested a review of sales tax on construction contracts because the complex application increased administration costs for business and resulted in an unlevel playing field regarding contract bids.

The working group that was set up included the Winnipeg Construction Association, the

13 22 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May9, 2002 Construction Association of Rural Manitoba, the Mechanical Contractors Association of Mani toba, and the Manitoba Electrical League. We go on to say: Ultimately, the admin istrative change that was announced provided the optimum solution to these problems. The application of sales tax will now be charged on the total selling price, which is understood by contractors and is easy to administer. This change applies to mechanical and electrical contractors only, as these trades are having the most difficulty applying sales tax.

The majority of trades involved in residential construction, including concrete foundations, walls, roofs, windows, doors, drywall, flooring, eaves troughing, shingles, stucco and painting, are not affected. As a transitional measure, where contracts signed before April 23 provide no opportunity for price adjustment, the additional tax will not have to be added to the contract. So we have provided a transition clause in there as well. Mr. Jim Penner: I am sorry, I did not get that. Mr.

Selinger: I was saying that it goes on to say in the paragraph at the bottom of the first page of my letter to the president of the Home Builders: As a transitional measure, where contracts signed before April 23 provide no opportunity for price adjustment, the additional tax will not have to be added to the contract. For contracts with a price adjustment clause, which is in accordance with the established Canadian con struction contract standards, the additional tax will be applied. So that is that letter, and I think we have a copy for you. We have a couple of copies.

I would like to file one with the Clerk and one with the Official Opposition critic. Also, I am going to file a copy of the letter that I received on December 4 requesting that we review this matter-the Mechanical Contractors Association. Mr. Jim Penner: Signed by Marcel Brissette? Mr. Selinger: Yes. I will put a copy with the Clerk anyway. Would you have a copy of the January 11 , 2000, minutes? I will file copies. That is the one where they indicated they would reach out to the Home Builders' Association for information. Mrs.

Joy Smith (Fort Garry): I came today because I have had some questions that have come to my office, so I would ask, Madam Chair, that the minister give me a clear scenario of how this applies in the real world. For instance, if the owner of a plumbing and heating and electrical business owns this busi ness, he has employees, he has been in business for some time and has a PST number that is in place right now, how do the ramifications of this new tax impact on a family business like this, if you could give me a scenario of how things will change. Do they need a new accounting system, for instance?

What happens to the present PST number? Just how does this apply in a real business sense? * (15 :30) Mr. Selinger: The current situation is for a small contractor, let us call it Fort Garry Plumb ing and Heating for sake of discussion, when they buy their materials, they have to pay the tax on it. Under the new system, when they buy their materials, they will not have to pay the tax.

They will be able to hold those materials in inventory without the tax, and then we will only levy the tax on the labour and materials once they actually do the actual contract and meet the specifications of it and complete that contract. There is an advantage. First of all, it is simpler to apply the tax, and they can carry their inventory tax free and only have to put the tax on the materials that they carry in their inventory when they do the installation. So we believe that will be a great improvement for them in two senses. They will have less carrying costs and a simpler application of tax.

They will not have to figure: Do I have to apply the tax here on just the materials or the labour and decide? They will just apply the tax on the material and labour, on the end product and service that they provide. Up to that point, they will not have to apply the tax on the inventory that they hold. We have got a draft bulletin to everybody, but our informal inf ormation in talking to the industry is they believe this will simplify their lives consider ably, Madam Chair. Mrs. Smith: Is the minister saying that these businesses will not, indeed, be paying more tax,

May 9, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 23 that it will be more streamlined because they are able to not pay tax on the inventory that is already in their businesses? Mr. Selinger: Right now the materials are taxed when they buy them at the wholesale level and keep them in inventory. Under the new regime, they will have more working capital because they will not have to apply that tax when they acquire the material and put it in inventory. They will only have to apply the tax when they actually provide service and the materials to the customer. They will apply the tax at that point.

So, in effect, they will apply the tax on top of the price they are charging the customer and do not have to carry it in the in-between on the materials. It will reduce their overhead costs, increase their working capital and be much simpler to decide where they will apply the tax, because they will apply it on labour and materials regardless of which customer they have. Right now, depending on the type of customer, they have to decide whether the tax applies or does not apply, and they have to decide on a bid whether or not the tax should be put into the bid or not.

In the present situation, it is almost to somebody's advantage to think that they do not have to apply the tax on the labour, so they get the bid. The person that follows the rules clearly and does apply it on the labour is at a bidding disadvantage. Under the new system, it will be a level playing field on bids for services and contracts because, under all circumstances, they have to put the tax on both labour and materials. We think it will be simpler, level the playing field, reduce their inventory costs and thus increase their working capital. Mrs. Smith: You make it sound as if there is no additional tax.

Could you explain to me, Mr. Minister, what the additional tax is? Mr. Selinger: There were circumstances before where it was not necessary to apply the tax on the labour. Those circumstances were fuzzy at best and unclear. That is where the customer will receive an extra tax where they might not have had to have it applied before. Because it was so unevenly done, it was kind of a hit-or-miss system. That was the feeling. We will give an example here. I will just try to give you a practical example. For example, the renovations sector saw the current system as a nightmare, and they asked for it to be dealt with.

The cost impact will depend on the labour and material mix on a contract. It will not be a 7% increase. For example, prior to the change, the contractor would include in their price the tax component of materials. This amendment will tax the whole job, as I have explained, materials and labour. Depending on the mix and value between labour and materials, the quantum of the increase will vary. For example, a new water heater, before the change, you would get a bill for $500 for the job. The new water heater would have cost you $400 plus RST of $28 for $428, plus labour of $72 to install it, for a total of $500.

Now the bill will be $400 plus $72 for labour, for a total of $472, plus retail sales tax of $33, for a total of $505, a $5 increase for the tax on the labour of $72. The type of job will determine the tax impact. Remember that repairs to other areas such as carpentry, painting, concrete work will see no changes at all. For these areas, they will apply it on that labour component, and that labour component depends on how difficult the installation was and what type of installation they are doing.

For the service provider, in effect, there is less tax that they have to carry, but there will be, in cases where we apply it on labour, more tax for the customer. Mrs. Smith: So, basically, if you were in a business, to give it a very simplistic scenario, you would get your materials. You would store them until somebody wanted something reno vated, and the business would not pay the 7% tax on that. It would be in abeyance until it was actually sold. Then, when it was sold, dependent on what the job was in place, the contractor would apply the 7 percent to the labour. Is that clear? Mr.

Selinger: Yes, they would apply the tax to the entire job, labour and materials. So they would apply the tax on the total value of the job, the labour and the materials. Mrs. Smith: How much revenue does the minister think that the Government will get as a result of this new tax? Mr. Selinger: On an annualized basis, we antici pate it could be $10 million.

13 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2002 Mrs. Smith: So, basically speaking, what has happened is the cost of renovating your house has gone up 7 percent on the job. Is that correct? Mr. Selinger: As I illustrated in that example, it only goes up on the labour component of the job which may have been previously exempted. So in the case of a heater of $400 and $72 labour, you only get the retail sales tax now applied to the labour component. So in this case of a $500 job previous to the change, the tax would go up $5 on the $500, which is 1 percent. Now it depends on the mix, right.

If you have such as a car repair, which in this case this tax would not apply, but in my case, I just had a small repair done on my car. The mechanical component was incredibly cheap. The labour was incredibly expensive, and that is already taxed. So, in this case here, we have to be careful to note that it is only on electrical and mechan ical contracts. It does not apply to basements, walls, windows, doors , drywall, flooring, eaves troughs, shingles, stucco, siding, et cetera. That stays the same because there was no confusion about that.

It was in this area of electrical and mechan ical contracts where they wanted clarity. Mrs. Smith: Would the minister then tell me: Would these businesses need to have new accounting systems in place to make sure that everything is accounted for? * (15 :40) Mr. Selinger: In the view of the Department of Finance accountants, they think it will signifi cantly simplify accounting.

It will make it easier for them because it is just the total end cost of the service you provide, one calculation, not a myriad of calculations depending on the type of job and a constant process of deciding whether it applies or does not apply, and then every con tractor or service provider applying it differently, so you get a very uneven playing field and everybody being frustrated and feeling they are losing business because of the lack of clarity in the present rules. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Minister, could you let me know: Does this affect in any way businesses who have PST numbers at this point?

Is there any change there? Mr. Selinger: For an existing registrant, there should be no change in their RST tax number. My officials believe, though, that some people were providing these services without having an RST number, and now they will have to get a number. They will not be able to pretend that they think they do not need a number, and sort of the hidden economy will dry up in that sense. Everybody will get registered, and that, once again, will level the playing field.

So we think that, for the legitimate businessperson, they will be better protected and more fairly treated in comparison to some of the suppliers that thought it was not necessary to register and collect the tax. So our guys are going to out and say now there is no doubt about it. You have to have a RST sales tax number and you have to collect the tax, and for the legitimate businessperson, they should be ahead of the game. The incentive for everybody to register now is that they will be able to buy their inventory without having to put the tax on it.

So it is a good measure to actually stop this hidden economy, because it gives an incentive for everybody to come into the system, and then it gives a simpler system to apply the tax across the board and make sure everybody is treated fairly. That was the inspiration behind it, and that is why the industry approached us, because they could see somebody with no tax number not applying the tax. They could see that they were. They were losing contracts. You start to get resentful if you are paying tax and you are losing business to somebody who is not paying tax. It is a hassle.

So I think it will be well received by the industry. To the official critic, the paragraph on the top of page 2 in my letter to Mr. Trottier, we try to explain that: The Taxation Division and the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, the agency which, I might note, stiffed us on the overpayments, or made that error, exchange information and co-operate on audits on the underground econom

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-29b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 29b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	770b7e0af86b83e391af2a3431ccdbff62092614

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