Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 61A (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-61a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. OP ENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Ho n. J. Waldi ng: Presenting Petitions . Reading and Receiving Petitions . Presenting Re ports By Standing and Sp ecial Committees MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Attorney-General RETURN TO ORDERS HON. R. PENNER: The Return on the Address for Papers and certain accepted motions, if I may. On the motion of Mr. Mc Kenzie voted April 19, 1982 from the Honoura ble the Minister of Agriculture.

On the Return to the Order of the House No. 2 on the motion of the Member for St. Norbert from the Minis ter of Agriculture. A Return to Order of the House No. 3 on the motion of the Member for St. Norbert from the Minister of Agriculture. A Return to Order of the House No. 4 on the motion of the Member for St. Norbert from the Minister of Agriculture. Return to the Order of the House No. 5 on the motion of the Member for St. Norbert from the Minis ter of Agriculture.

No. 6 on the motion of the Member for Lakeside from the Minister of Agriculture. · Fina lly, a Return to the Order of the House No. 8 on the motion of the Member for Virden from the Minister of Agriculture. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. V. SCHROEDER introduced Bill No. 38,

An Act to amend The Vacation with Pay Act; Bill No. 41,

An Act to amend The Employment Standards Act; Bill No. 45, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act ( 1982) (R ecommended by the Lieutenant-Gover nor). HON. M. HEMPHILL introduced Bill No. 42,

An Act to amend The Education Administration Act. Loi modi fiant la

Loi sur I' ad ministration scolaire. (Recommended by the Lieutenant-Govern or). HON. V. SCHROEDER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 46, The Health and Post-Secondary Education Tax Levy Act. (Recommended by the Lieutenant-Governor) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: May I direct the attention of honour able members to the gallery where we have 30 stu dents of Grade VII and VI II standing of the Churchi ll High School under the direction of Mr. Jim Sinclair. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Economic Development.

There are 83 students of Grades VII and VI II stand ing of the Provencher School under the direction of Mr. Paul, Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Ogere. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourab le Minister of Community Services and relates to the removal of Mr.

Douglas Wark as Man ager of the Brandon Work Activity Project and I would ask the Minister why he is contradicting existing prac tice in the Employment Services Division and unilat erally creating an artificial new position at an adminis trative level in Westman region. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. HON. L. EVANS: I can advise the honourable member that this government is putting a great deal of empha sis in various ways to bring in new programs to put welfare recipients to work.

As the member knows, this Budget that we just passed, the Estimates of the department that we just passed, substan tially increase the Budget for the Work Activity Projects and, indeed, in our Supplementary Budget we have another $900,000.00. But, in order to get more productivity for the dollars invested, Mr. Speaker, it's absolutely necessary that we strengthen the management of all these work activity projects, therefore, several months ago, we made a decision to separate the management of the department from the management of the project itself and, in this respect Mr.

Wark, who he refers to, was only a part-time manager. We think it's necessary, absolutely necessary, to have a full-time manager and, indeed, we have found one, a person who has had considerable business experience, a dynamic, bright person who knows the meaning of cost control. He is a well-respected individual in the community, Mr. Speaker, and among other things he's a member of the City of Brandon Police Commission.

He's tho roughly familiar with staff relations, staff training and office management and after being interviewed by the department he was deemed to be most suitable for this particular position. 2675 I don't know if the honourable member realizes or not but over the years, particularly the past two years when his government was in office, the costs of oper ating the Work Activity Projects have increased enor mously. For exam ple, in 1977-78 the average cost of a trainee in Westbran was $5,581; the last year of the Conservative Government it had risen to $12,031.00. Mr.

Speaker, we have a staff ratio of 4.5 to 1. What teacher in this province would love to have four stu-

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 dents in the classroom and only four students to deal with? Looking at these Work Activity Projects throughout the province we find there's been a decline in the past four years in the number of participants and certainly in the case of Westbran we have declined to an aver age pa rticipant level of only 56. As I indicated, Mr. Speaker, that gives you an average cost of $1 2,000. that's not good enough and somebody has to speak up for the taxpayers of this pro·1ince to look after their interests, therefore, it is our decision to separate the management in each and every case.

I think this is a right move and incidentally we're talking about contract people, we're not talking about Civil Service positions. If the Work Activity Projects cannot prove to be more cost-efficient in the future then we may have to consider phasing them out. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe it's clearly on the record that the Minister has now said that this decision to separate the Work Activity Project Manag er's job from the Employment Service Coordinator's job in each region was made several months ago. I want to ask the Minister, who made that decision and how widely does that apply? HON. L.

EVANS: Mr. Speaker, these decisions have to be made by senior management, including the Min ister and the Deputy Minister. I can assure the hon ourable member that the year ahead will be a critical year because. if we can't get more cost-efficiency than the previous government, I say we should consider phasing out the Work Activity Projects and looking at other means to put welfare recipients to work, for example, Mr. Speaker, I believe we should look closely at what we're attempting to do on an experi mental basis this year.

As the Member for Fort Garry knows we've allocated, I believe, $1 25,000 for Moth er's Allowance recipients to be subsidized in industry, to be subsidized in business. It may be very well that what we should be doing is redirecting these monies to subsidize welfare recipients to be employed by industry, by small business, by medium-sized busi ness. So this is the year of decision. If we can't, through a better systems approach, achieve that cost efficiency then I indicate to you, Mr. Speaker, that this change will have to be made. MR. L. SHER MAN: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the record will clearly show, either by direct statement or by evasion, that the Minister has confirmed that he has told the House the decision was made several months ago to separate the two functions in what has always been a dual position in all regions in the province, with the exception of Winnipeg region, where a different set of standards is in effect. That being the case, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister can confirm to the House that an audit has been completed in his department, by personnel, of the dual position of Employment Services Coordina tor and Work Activity Project Manager; that the posi tion has been reclassified up, from HSS4 to HSS5, based entirely on the principle that it's a dual position and is to remain as a dual position. I wonder if he can confirm that, the reason for the audit and the reason for the reclassification. HON. L.

EVANS: Obviously, the member has access to certain staff that I don't have access to -( In terjection) - obviously, they're very anxious to talk to the member, I would gath er. Mr. Speaker, I don't know the detail of the person's grade, whether he's a 5 or 6, a 2 or 1o ra 12 , I don't know. But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, you can talk all the jargon you like about Civil Service classifications but the figures are here -( Int erjection)- well, you don't like the truth.

Throughout the province the number of people in the Work Activity Projects has declined steadily; 19 77, 882; 19 78, 735; 19 75, 59 1; 19 80, 544, and in thecaseof the Westbran it's been a very very dramatic drop. In 19 7 4-75, there were 396 participating in the Westbran Project; '75-76, 275; '76-77, 244; '77-78, 16 2, then down to 12 2; '79-80 up a wee bit to 14 5, but then finally to 85 in 19 80-81 and this last year, only 56. We've got four trainees per staff.

We've got a situation that's simply too costly and how that member, that former Premier and that government, could sit there and say they're so cost efficient with this happening throughout the Work Activity Projects of Manitoba, just will not wash. And I say it's time we got managers of these projects who are business-oriented, had had some experience in meeting a payroll and knew something -(lnter jection)-yes, social workers are fine but sometimes a social worker need not necessarily be the manager of these projects; they make no apology for somebody with other experience being the manager of a project. MR.

L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister seriously telling this House, and telling his Leader, who has knowledge and experience of Mr. Wark, as three previous administrations in this province do; as a public servant of distinguished record who is consi dered probably the best Work Activities Project con ceptualizer and administrator in Canada, certainly in Manitoba, and has set up a Work Activity Project that was a model for Canada, certainly Manitoba, is the Minister trying to tell the House and tell his Leader that Mr.

Wark's qualifications are exceeded by the qualifications of a supporter of the Minister's who has never worked in the field, who got the job without having to be bulletined, without having to go through an advertising process, without having to be com pared against other applicants; who got the job because he needed a job and because he is a political supporter and a political backer and political friend of the Minister's; that those qualifications exceed the qualifications of Mr. Wark who has done this job cap ably and well for more than a dozen years, is that what he's telling us, Mr. Speaker? 2676 MR.

EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I am telling the member that I have a responsibility to the taxpayers of Mani toba which he reneged on. -( In terjection )- Well the figures are here, the figures are here, the costs have risen astronomically in Westbran, and indeed, some of the other projects and we believe that the way to cope with this is not on a personality basis like the honourable member chooses to -( lnterjection) yes, he does choose to pursue that course. We say we have to change the organization and change the sys tem and that's exactly what we are doing, we're chang ing the system. And I repeat, Mr.

Speaker, if we can't

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 put people through this program for less than $1 2,000 per person per year I say we've got to look at perhaps phasing out the Work Activity Projects or at least changing them drastically so that we can get more value for the taxpayers' money. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the audit done by pe rsonnel for the Minister in his department, reclassified the job as a dual position; in view of the fact that we went through the Minister's Estimates in this House one month ago without a word of any of this; in view of the fact that he says the decision was made months ago and Mr.

Wark was summarily told on May 13 th, move over and move out; in view of all those things and in view of the fact that this is a cost-sh ared program paid for by 50-cent dol lars from Ottawa, is the Minister undertaking to develop five new administrative jobs - whether per manent Civil Service or contracts is neither here nor there, it's still on the pay roll, it's still on the Budget - five new administrative jobs and trying to justify them in this House to cover up the fact that he has created a make-work project for his political friend, is that what he's doing? HON. L.

EVANS: Obviously, I'll never be able to per suade the Member for Fort Garry otherwise because he chooses to believe that. But I say this, Mr. Speake r and for the Leader of the Opposition who is sup posedly a cost-efficient type and I'm surp rised he let his Minister get away with this - the fact is that this coming year is a year of decision and if this new system and new organization will not work, as I said, we may have to look at better ways of helping to put welfare recipients to work; that has to be a prior ity.

And certainly this will be a prio rity in all the regions and, indeed, in the Estimates there were monies for additional people throughout the regions for more manpower counselling and I would be very remiss, Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Community Services in this day and age, if I didn't make this a top pr iority. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister advise the House how Mr. Burke "applied" for the job? When was it advertised? How did he apply for it and would the Minister table in the House a copy of that application? HON . L.

EVANS: Because this is a contract position and can be terminated, in fact, Mr. Speaker, I tried to get across to the Minister the point that we don't want civil servants in these par ticular projects. They may be phased out and the fact is that most of them, 95 percent-plus, 98 pe rcent, 99 percent are not civil ser vants, they are contract people. In some cases there have been advertisements but I'm advised in other instances there have been referrals and if you have someone who's competent, who's available and looks as though he can do a good job, then you utilize the person's services. But I repeat, Mr.

Speaker, if this doesn't work out then we will look for somebody else .. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister tell the House how did Mr. Burke get the job - the job was not advertised. I'm asking the Minister how did Mr. Burke get the job. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I don't know how many times I'm supposed to repeat myself. As I indicated to the member there was a policy decision made to make a change and there are some people that are available and those people (I nterjection )- I can tell you that I didn't interview him, Mr. Speaker.

He was interviewed by the depar tment and by the Deputy Minister and he was deemed to be very suitable. MR. L. SHERMA N: Mr. Speaker, my information - and the Minister can challenge it and repudiate it if it's incor rect - is that Mr. Burke was hired by the Deputy Minister, interviewed by the Deputy Minister under instructions from the Minister that Mr. Burke was to get that job. My question now, to the Minister is, is the Deputy Minister now the pe rsonnel officer in his depa rtment? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, the Deputy Minister and the Minister ultimately take the responsibility for what goes on in that depa rtment as, indeed, in any depar tment. I'll take the flak at any time and the Dep uty Minister has to share his load too. The fact is, Mr.

Speaker, I would be very remiss if I did not address this pa rticular problem of Cadillac operations, I'm sorry to use that word, but under the pr evious gov ernment this developed into a Cadillac operation; not a Volkswagen from Steinbach but a Cadillac opera tion and I might, if he's familiar with the ARM Indus tries operation in Brandon, it's a poor cousin com pa red to this, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, about 10 days ago a question was asked of me relating to an investi gation of a senior member of the Depa rtment of Gov ernment Services.

I wish to advise the House in response to that question. I advised at the time that there were investigations. This morning cha rges were laid against one Victor Stewart Butler, Chief Engineer with the Engineering Bran ch of the Depa rtment of Government Services and certain companies with which he's associated, charging, among other things, a conspiracy to defraud and unlawfully accepting a percentage of the value of certain contracts let by the province to certain firms who stand cha rged with him.

I would like to say that the inquiry was initiated within the Depa rtment of Government Services as a result of certain information received and br ought to the attention of the Deputy Minister who - and great credit to him - immediately referred it to the Deputy Attorney-General who, in turn, immediately referred it to the Special Prosecutions Branch and as a result of investigations that took place over a period of time, these charges were laid this morning. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Gov ernment Services. HON. S. USK IW: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that, pursuant to that statement, it would be proper for me to then indicate to the Legislative Assembly what course of action is being undertaken by the depa rtment and I have here a few copies of a statement that I wish to present to the House, Mr. Speaker. 2677

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Members will be aware that where a matter is before the courts in this province the matter is not suitable or proper to be the subject of a question at question period. I'm not sure now whether the Minis ter is asking for permission to revert to Ministerial Statements, but I warn him that where a matter is before the courts it is really not suitable or proper to bring it before the House. The Honourable Minister. HON. S. USK IW: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the point that you are making.

The nature of this statement has nothing to do with respect to the case but rather with the disposition of the individual that has been charged within the department for a period of time until those charges have either been dispensed with or until the person has been convicted. So I would like to give that statement to the MR. SPEAKER: Is the Minister replying to a question or is he making a Ministerial Statement, in which case then he needs leave of the House to revert back to that. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, we would be prepared to revert to Ministerial State ments following the question period if the Minister of Transportation feels that it is necessary to make the statement at that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON . R. PENNER: Yes, that is satisfactory and I thank the Opposition House Leader for that suggestion. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Community Services. The Minister has stated publicly that he is "upset" with the manner in which this whole affair involving Mr. Wark and Mr.

Mick Burke has been handled. I would like to ask him who handled it and who he's upset with? HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the person who would handle it would be the Director of the Employ ment Services Division. MR. L. SHER MAN: Under your instructions. HON . L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the member asked the question and I' ve given him the answer. I believe there could have been better communication than there was.

As a matter of fact, there was to be a formal statement on this but, through the questioning of the honourable member, the matter got out into the press but we wanted to make a formal statement on the organization and this was one additional detail. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd ask the Minister whether he replaced the heavy majority of the board, some two weeks ago, of this classic example of a good work activity project, with his own appointees so that Mr. Burke's appointment and a separation of those duties and the removal of Mr.

Wark would not be questioned or not be impeded and so that he can revert to the practice for which he was widely known in the mid-1970s, during the Schreyer Administration, of tampering politically, intruding politically, in the Westbran Work Activity Project which was not under his department at that time. HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to advise the member that the Work Activity Project Programs developed under the previous governme nt - and I had some part to play in evolving these in this province, as a matter of fact, they are in many ways an offshoot of the Provincial Employment Program, this is where they had the seeds of germination. I' m pleased that I played a role in the previous government in establish ing, including the one at Westbran. But the point I make, I'm very dismayed, Mr.

Speaker, at the reduc tion throughout the province in the number of people covered by these projects and, indeed, it is a serious problem that there are many, many welfare recipients who are employable but who have not got jobs. This is meant to be a major effort to achieve that but I'm afraid it's becoming too costly and we may have to look at other options. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BAN MAN: Mr. Speaker, 1 'd like to ask the Min ister in charge of Mc Kenzie Seeds a question.

In light of his repeated statements in the House today that he is concerned about cost efficiencies - and those are part of the motivations in him making a decision - could he tell the Legislature why he fired the Board of Mc Kenzie Seeds when that particular board had man aged in the last couple of years to bring Mc Kenzie Seeds, the provincial company, into a situation where, for the first time in many years, they showed a profit last year and that's the particular board that he fired. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, it was deemed advisa ble to have a much broader-based Board. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, we put back on to the Board some of the people that the previous Minister in the previous government turfed out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Highways responsible for Trans portation. I wonder if the Minister could report to the House how long it's going to take to repair the culvert washout about seven kilometers west of the White Horse on No. 1 Trans-Canada Highway? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Gov ernment Services. 2678 HON. B. USK IW: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the situation was not a washout but rather the fact that a culvert has worn out and the completion date for construction is July 1.

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 MR. D. BLAK E: Yes, Mr. Speaker, just replacing a culvert, the thing has been out about three weeks now, the concrete is all in place. I just wondered if he could check with the department and see just what the big holdup is? It doesn't seem it's that major a job to re-route the traffic on such a busy artery at this partic ular time of the year.

It would seem to me that there may be some engineering problem there that we're not aware of but I wonder if he would check with his department and see if that really is going to take until July 1 to do that very, very small job, as far as the motoring public is concerned. HON. B. USKIW : Well, Mr. Speaker, I' m not certain as to whether or not this is an in-house job or whether this is a tender construction project. If it's subject to tender requirements then, of course, the usual time delays will take place.

But, if it's an in-house operation I' m certain that we will do everything that we can to speed up the construction. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Does the First Minister support, in prin ciple, Mr. Speaker, the position taken by the Canadian Labour Congress this weekend with respect to con cessions and does he recommend that position, in principle, in public sector and private sector wage negotiations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, this is a matter per taining to collective bargaining, a matter that must, in each given case, be determined democratically and this is certainly not a position that this government or any particular government need take a position on. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRI EDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Finance.

The Winnipeg Bible College Seminary located in Otterburne, which is one of the biggest employers in my constituency, operates basi cally on tuition fees and donations, can the Minister indicate whether the seminary is liable to the 1. 5 per cent payroll tax? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, very clearly the Member for Emerson couldn't have been in the House in the last few weeks.

I have stood here, it must have been 50 times, that I have said that the levy for health and post-secondary education applies to all employ ers in the province, that includes the particular employer he is referring to because all employers benefit from our health and post-secondary educa tion system which is running at a cost of more than a billion per year in Manitoba. That cost has to be borne by someone; we have lost over $700 million over the next five years in transfer payments for that purpose. This is our method of recouping a portion of that. I should also point out, Mr.

Speaker, that with respect to that particular employer, as other employ ers involved in that field, they are receiving funds which are deductible from the taxable income of the individuals who make those contributions and I believe that's a point that he should be considering when he is asking these questions. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minis ter.

Since the Winnipeg Bible College Seminary relies most heavily on donations and because of the poor economy is making fund raising very difficult, would the Minister consider exempting organizations like the Winnipeg Bible College Seminary from the 1.5 percent payroll tax? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that it would be appropriate for any employee or group of employees to be exempted from taking the benefits of the health care system and the post secondary education system in the province. The pay ment will come in all cases from the employers in the province.

We believe that it is a fair and equitable manner of distributing that particular burden which has been placed on us and we are required to obtain those funds fairly from all employers in the province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, on Tues day, May 11t h, the Honourable Member for Emerson asked me questions dealing with the applications received by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corpo ration for agricultural loans and how many had been approved.

I' m advised from the period of Novemeber 30 until May 13, 19 82, there have been 14 8 applications received by MACC. Head Office of MACC has approved 97, declined 30 and 21 are under considera tion. The figures that I have given the honourable member do not include those applications that are in the field presently being processed and I' m advised that there are somewhere between 60 and 70 applica tions in process in the field. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, the other day I had occasion to ask a question of the Minister of Finance about a legal opinion which he claims he has received from the Attorney-General's department or the Attorney-General himself. Could the Minister of Finance table the legal opinion which he referred to the other day which apparently tells him that the Legislature of Manitoba can impose a tax upon the Federal Government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. 2679 HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Speaker, I had indicated I believe previously that the opinion wasn't in written form, but I am astounded that the Leader of the Oppo sition is getting on again, together with the Member of Parliament for Provencher, and continuing to bring this question forward as though Manitoba doesn't

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 have the right to tax in this form, although Quebec does. Quebec has done it for 1 O years and there has never been a question, never a question from him when he was the Premier of this province.

If he believed, if he seriously believes that the answer to his question is that the Federal Government shouldn't be paying that tax, then he has been extremely negligent as Premier of this province in not going after the Fed eral Government to ensure that that portion of income, which is deductible by corporations paying taxes in Quebec and in Manitoba, not be deductible in Quebec from tax payable in Manitoba because that Quebec tax has cost Manitoba taxpayers a lot of money over the years. As well, Mr.

Speaker, the Federal Government is making similar payments in the Province of Ontario where they are paying half of Medicare premiums and for an employer who has an employee with a wife or a spouse and two children, that amount is $648 a year ; half of that is over $300 per year that the Federal Government is prepared to pay in the Province of Ontario. What the Leader of the Opposition is saying is, it's okay for Ontario to do it; it's okay for Quebec to do it, but for Pete's sake, Manitoba should allow those people to have those deductions and we should con tribute toward those provinces.

On this side, we disagree. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I' m aware and the public of Manitoba are growing much more aware that there are many fundamentals of the law and of the Parlia mentary process which will astound the Minister of Finance which are commonplace to the rest of us. I merely asked the Minister of Finance if he has a legal opinion, would he table it saying that the Prov ince of Manitoba has the right to impose a tax upon the Federal Government; that's all. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I have said at least once before, but I will say again, that I have a verbal opinion.

It may be that the Leader of the Oppo sition doesn't understand what a verbal opinion is. A verbal opinion is one that is not in writing. It just so happens that there are very many opinions given every day of the week that are valid opinions that are not in writing. This one happens to be, I believe, quite valid and not in writing. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Finance now telling this House that before embarking upon this new form of taxation in Manitoba, he did not secure a written, legal opinion as to the constitutional ity of the tax? Is that what he's trying to tell the House? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, it may well be that the Leader of the Opposition would like to get some legal work passed over to some friends of his, but it is my view and the view of this government that when you have provinces like Alberta, British Colum bia, Ontario and Quebec entitled by long-time prece dent to deduct those taxes, then we believe that we have the right here in the Province of Manitoba as well. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, the House is becoming very accustomed to the flimflammery of the Minister of Finance which he uses, I' m afraid, Sir, as a conve- nient substitute for his lack of erudition in the law and a number of other things. We can accept that in here because we know whereof we speak. Is the Minister of Finance saying that he imposed this new payroll tax upon the people of Manitoba without the benefit of a written legal opinion from the Attorney-General's department saying that he, that the Legislature of Manitoba, has the right to pass a law which imposes a tax upon the Federal Government as employer? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: The Leader of the Opposition is again mumbling from his seat after he has asked his question for the fourth time. I would point out that this particular tax is one which has been accepted by the Federal Government in the four most populous provinces of this country and in the four wealthiest provinces in the country, in fact. I should also say that the Federal Government doesn't have the difficulty in accepting this tax that the Oppo sition and Mr. Jake Epp do. Mr. Jake Epp and the Leader of the Opposition may have difficulty accepting it.

It may have something to do with changed federal-provincial relations since November 17 , but the Federal Government has indi cated very clearly that they are prepared to pay this tax in Manitoba and it seems as though the Opposition just really would love to see us and the Federal Gov ernment in the kind of gutter fights that they had for four years when that group was in office. Well, we're not prepared to fight We are not prepared to fight. We think this is a fair tax; it is a tax that puts the Federal Government in a position where it's paying its fair share.

Employers in the province are paying their fair share; the Federal Government has already indicated that it is prepared to pay it, they're not prepared to go to court to fight us on it So I believe that the question is thoroughly hypothetical. 2680 HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister, not having apparently already done so which was a pre requisite of a good tax law, will he now obtain from the Attorney-General's department an opinion which gives him some backing for the rather novel mouthings that he puts forward in the House about somehow or other a premium tax in Ontario being the same as a payroll tax in Manitoba? That flimflam may work on his side of the House; it doesn't work here. Will he now, after the fact, get an opinion from the Attorney-General's department as to the constitutionality of the tax?

I ask him to do this, Sir, because he gave notice today of first reading of the bill and I don't think the Legislature of Manitoba should be asked to pass this bill until such time as it has had a written, proper legal opinion from somebody other than his seatmate, a proper legal opinion from the law officers of the Crown as to the constitutionality of the law that he is going to be asking this Legislature to pass, vis-a-vis the Federal Government? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a few comments.

It would be a strange notion, indeed, of justice in this country where a province like Quebec is entitled to deduct this tax from the federal payroll and has done so during the reign of the former First Minis ter and that we wouldn't be able to deduct the identical

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 levy at half the amount; that's number one. That would be a very strange circumstance in a Confederation like Cana da indeed. Number two, we have never said that Mani toba's levy is identical to Ontar io's. Ontar io's levy is regres sive in that it is a full tax; it does n't matter how much or how little the employee is earni ng, $648 a year, every year whether they can afford it or not and the Gov ernment of Onta rio says that more than 70 percent of that tax is taken out of employers. Well, if that is true, that's over $500 per employee on the average in Onta rio.

So it's regressive and it is aimed at the employee; that's an other difference. So we're not saying this one is identical to Ontar io's, it has some similar properties. It is identical to Quebec's excepting that it is only at half the value. So again I would like the Leader of the Opp osition to consider why it is that the Province of Quebec has been able to levy this tax for a decade on the federal payr oll without his ever raisi ng an objection that I can recall and, when the Province of Mani toba does it at half Quebec's rate, that he wants to discover a flaw in this pa rticular tax in order that what?

He can cheer as our tax coffers are not filled as quickly as we expected; that we would have to cut back on programming or add other taxes. Is that what he wants? I don't think he wants that. Surely he wouldn't want that and if he does n't, then I would ask him to stop aski ng these questio ns. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I won't stop asking questions because my honourable friend demonstrates day by day, week by week, that he doesn't kno w what he's doing.

I merely asked the questio n for the bene fit of the 57 members of this House who are going to be asked to pass a law brought in by this incompetent Minister, without the bene fit of having a legal opinion as to its cons titutionality. That's all we're asking. The Honourable Minister may recall, Mr. Speaker, that this province had a law on its books since 1916 which wasn't challenged in the courts, which three years ago the Sup reme Court said was ultra vires. I remind him of that fact before he makes too many firm opinions about the constitutionality of his law.

Will he provide the House with a legal opinion from the Attorney-General's department of this province as to the cons titutionality of his new pay roll tax? A very simple questio n. HON. V. SCHROEDER: I don't know what has so exorcised the Leader of the Op position to believe that somehow Mani toba isn't entitled to pass a taxation act that he, as Premier for four years, ackn owledged by his in action as being perfectly legal.

He, himself, as Premier of this province knows full well that during the time he was in office that the tax in Quebec indirectly cost the taxpayers of Ma nitoba millions of dollars from corpor ations doing business throughout this country who could deduct their Quebec pay roll tax from the amount of their taxable income and , there fo�e. their taxable in come for Mani toba purposes was lessened by that amount.

Now when Mani toba ins titutes the same tax that he accepted as legal by his in action for four consecutive years he is suddenly saying that we need a legal opin ion to accept as being legal, a tax that he accepted by his in action as being legal for four years. I find that un acceptable. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Ques tions having expired, I believe the House had given its leave for the Honourable Minister of Government Ser vices to revert back to Oral Questions. The Honou rable Minister of Government Services. HON. S. USK IW: Mr.

Speaker, as a result of charges being laid under the Criminal Code of Canada against the employee of the Depar tment of Government Ser vices, arra ngements have been made to reassign him to ano ther division in the department which is an area completely sepa rate and un related to his former area of respons ibility and activity. This reassignment is being carried out pending court proceedings. This employee will be directly respon sible to the Executive Director of the Supply and Services Division and assigned projects primarily associated with that divisio n. 2681 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAK ER: The Honou rable Government House Leader. HANSARD CORRECTIONS HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I have two or three an nouncements. First of all, with respect to Hansard of Thursday, May 20, 19 82, on page 2654, in recording the Votes on the subamendment, the amendment and the motion on the Budget, there is an error on that page. The counts on the amendment and on the main motion are reversed. That is, the Ayes are counted as Nays and the Nays as Ayes.

It appears correctly in Votes and Proceedings but not in Hansard and I' ve drawn this to the attention of the Clerk and nowfor the record, I' m an nouncing it to the House. COMMITTEE MEETINGS HON. R. PENNER: Again there's an announcement, Sir. There will be meetings of the following Commit tees of the Mani toba Mineral Resources on Thursday, June 3, 10 :00 a.m.; and Mani toba Forestry Resources, Tuesday, June 8 at 10 :00 a.m. I just remind the House that there is a meeting of Privileges and Elections to take place this coming Thursday, May 27, at 10 :00 a.m. on matters referred, in Room 255. Mr.

Speaker, I now move, seconded by the Minister of Highways that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to con sider of the Supply to be grant ed to Her Majesty, to say that Education is continuing in the House and the Attorney-General's Estimates in Room 255. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Sup ply with the Honoura ble Member for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for The Pas in the Chair for the Depar tment of the Attorney-General.

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, H. Harapiak: Committee come to order. We are considering Estimates of the Attorney General's Department. We're on Page 14 in the Esti mates booklet. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. By way of introduction I would like to make a few brief remarks. First of all, overall you will note on Page 14 that there's an increase this year from $46 million approximately for the year ending March 31, 19 82 to $57 million for the year to end March 31, 19 83.

That's an increase in dollars of approximately $1 1 million. Virtually all of that, you will notice, is attributable to the increased cost of law enforcement, up almost $8 million from previous years, due substantially to the increased costs of the agreement which this province has with the RCMP for provincial policing. The pre vious Attorney-General bargained long and hard and I believe came up with the best deal that he could in the circumstances.

It had not yet been signed at the time that I took office, but I took a look at it and agreed that, first of all, we did have in the RCMP a credible, expe rienced police service that we could not duplicate, I believe, at that cost and that the best possible agree ment had been attained. The particular increase, of course, will be reflected in the costs of this depart ment through the next 1 O years it's a ten-year agreement. The balance of the increase, in the main, is attribu table to the following: new positions, 23.5 approxi mately, at about $387,500 and I'll say a few words about those new positions.

Salary adjustments, again in line with the scale increase and the annual incre ments of about $901 ,600 and an increase in the fees paid to the private bar participants in our legal aid system of close to $500,000.00. This was an increase long overdue that had been in the negotiation stage for 18 months - 2 years -a nd was consummated by the previous Attorney-General raising the private bar fee from $25 to $35 per hour.

Again, considering that it was the only increase for a period of approximately eight years, it was a modest increase to the private bar and one that was certainly needed given the increase in overhead costs. Then miscellaneous increases of about $250,000; these totalling approximately $2 million so the $1 1 million year-to-year increase is attributable to those elements; there is nothing extraordinary reflected in those elements. There are no new programs reflected in those elements; they are increases which are the result in the main, as I say, of negotiations and some new positions.

With respect to the new positions, again really, I may say, minimal in terms of the overall complement of staff man years in the department of approximately 98 1. Of the 22, the increase of approximately 23-1/2 staff man years, five of them are really attributable to a one-year experimentation, experimental program, where we have five articling law graduates who are clerking with judges of the Federal Courts. Again, this was something that was in negotiations, at an advanced 2682 stage of negotiations, with the previous Attorney General and I thought a worthwhile program and something which ought to be tried.

It's not expensive in terms of five articling students. Six of the 22 posi tions are attributable to the requirements in our Pro vincial Judges' Courts and are all clerical. The others are scattered throughout and will appear as we go from program to program through the Estimates. Further by way of introduction, I would just like to indicate - and I think it's appropriate to indicate in looking at Estimates which are projected expendi tures for a given year - as to where we are heading, perhaps in terms of new programs in the year ahead and in the years ahead.

I'll just flag these up by way of introduction, perhaps anticipating questions which might properly be asked later on. One program which will have some cost impact which is not within our control but we're preparing for will arise from the introduction of The Young Offend ers Act to replace The Juvenile Delinquents Act, April 1 st. 19 83. It will be noticed that this was, in fact, passed in the House; it has to be passed in the Senate and it will come into force on a day to be set in the Act which, I am advised by the Solicitor-General, will be April 1s t of 19 83. That will have some cost impact on Manitoba.

Not nearly as much as in those provinces which do not have, as we have, the juvenile age capped at 18 - some have it at 16 - and there may be considerable expenses in provinces like Saskatche wan and Ontario, on either side of us with the age at 16 , where they may have to look at some extension of existing facilities to deal with young offenders. We're not caught in that bind. We have the assurance of the Solicitor-General that there will be considerable federal input to the increased cost because it is attributable to Federal legislation.

I wouldn't want to put that undertaking in the bank just yet but I have reason to believe that there will be some reasonable federal cash input in the increased cost there, but that's for '83-84, and I'm mentioning it now. We have an implementation committee, representa tives of my department, representatives of the Department of Community Services and Corrections, representatives of Legal Aid as well, looking at the impact of The Young Offenders Act. Under active consideration, but I wouldn't want to put a timeline on it other than it will not be in '82-83, is the concept of the Unified Family Court.

Members will perhaps recall that this was on the drawing boards in the mid-70s and was close to implementation but was never implemented and a report to me on Family Law by Robert Karasevich, I've just received but not had a chance to peruse, strongly advocates that we move ahead with the Unified Family Court and that may be something that we're looking at in '83-84. The Law Reform Commission will be reporting to me shortly on fusion of the two trial divisions with federally appointed judges, i.e., the County Court and the Court of Queen's Bench and again, if this does take place it will be for '83-84.

Again I think, not before '83-84 in terms of imple mentation, we are - and I think this is well-known - looking at the enactment of a Law Enforcement Review Act which will provide a different kind of mechanism for the review of citizens' complaints against the police. I think in terms of the time that it

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 will take to have any draft bill thoroughly reviewed by all constituencies affected, police departments, police associations at the time of introduction into the House and passage; the time of recruiting persons for such a function, I think it would be reasonable to expect that there'll be no cost impact in '82-83 but if it is passed, there will be in '83-84, Those are some of the main programs that are a year ahead, More immediately, I think it would be appropriate to refer to two or three things that are on the drawing board now as it were and may have some cost impact during this year, if implemented in this year.

The Vic tim Witness Assistance Program, which was funded substantially by the Federal Government and was very successful, has been renewed with federal funding for '82-83 at an approximate cost of about $75,000, but there's about $55,000 of that Recoverable from Can ada, So it's a low-cost program but it's a program that I believe is badly overdue. It's a program which allows people who are, in the first instance, victims of crime and have to be wit nesses; and secondly, witnesses generally who get lost often in the system.

There's an office in the Court house where special attention is paid to making sure that when persons come for trial dates they don't come and find that the trial date has been moved ahead and they've made arrangements to come off the job or anything like that and then find that, for reasons unknown to them, the trial has been cancelled or postponed or something has happened that they don't understand. They feel, particularly if they're the vic tim, already hurt by the fact of the crime, again hurt by the system.

The Victim Assistance Program will not only provide victims and witnesses generally with that kind of assistance, but will be helpful to them in a counselling way to let them know what to anticipate in the court procedure; what faces them as they come in to the court process, Further, consideration is being given, and when I say consideration is being given, I want to be very careful, no decision has been made at any level but consideration is being given and there is a potential cost impact for further development of a Human Rights office in Thompson.

Now if that opens, it would open in the fall of '83 and would have an '82-83 cost impact of about $36,500.00, Approval has just been given in principle to the development within the struc ture of Legal Aid of a Public Interest Advocacy Centre to mobilize resources within Legal Aid to more effec tively represent consumer groups in certain very spe cial circumstances, which groups want to make representations on their behalf as consumers with respect to things like utility rates, things of that kind, There's an anticipated cost for '82-83 of about $55,000 there.

There will be instituted later this year a Fine Option Program and this will provide an option, a work option, for persons who are fined and given as the case usually is, a term of imprisonment in lieu of pay ment of the fine; persons who can't pay the fine -they don't have the money - end up at terrible cost to themselves and to the taxpayer in jaiL The Fine Option Program will provide a program of community work; communities will be involved in this program and that will be implemented in '82-83, It is in the Supplemen tary Supply Bill at an estimated cost for this depart- ment of about $85,000 - I think it will be less, more like $70,000 but that $85,000 is the outside amount Half the cost of this program is borne by the Depart ment of Community Services and Corrections, Again, as a cost item not reflected in the Estimates, members will recall that under the previous govern ment, Marshall Rothstein was appointed as a commis sioner on the question of mandatory retirement and there was a budgeted amount not paid in '81-82 because the bill was not received in time.

The bill for Mr. Rothstein's report has now been received at $98, 186.55, The debt will necessarily be a charge on '82-83 - this is $85,000 under budget There was budgeted for that report approximately $280,000.00, This is not, let me say in fairness to Mr.

Rothstein, a bill which is exclusively for his services, but encompasses the services of a special assistant and encompasses as well the services of office expenses, the costs of printing the report, miscellaneous costs of that kind, so that the total that will be charged against '82-83 is $98, 1 86.00, Finally, just a few small items that will impact on this year's Estimates.

Members will have noted that Legal Aid Manitoba has eliminated the user fee which was instituted in early '77, I believe - no, late '77 if I'm not mistaken - '77-78, that's right, and it's expected that this year's costs in terms of lost revenue for the elimi nation of the user fee will be $50,000.00, Finally, an unbudgeted item which, I think, will have some impact on this year's Budget will be some costs associated with constitutional questions that will not otherwise be borne by the Department of Civil Litiga tion.

We have to anticipate now with the proclamation of The Constitutional Act 1982 on April 17th, that in accordance with the Constitution within one year there will be a Constitutional Conference. If that Con stitutional Conference takes place earlier rather than later, then there will be counsel fees that will likely be associated with that conference in terms of the prepa ration of the province's position, particularly with respect to questions of Native and aboriginal rights. Finally, on that item there's a constitutional case involving the significance of

Section 23 of The Mani toba Act which, not too strangely, as is often the case, arises out of a parking ticket being fought by a young man by the name of Bilodeau which has great consti tutional significance for the Province of Manitoba involving the validity of our statutes. That case will be heard, it is anticipated, later in the year in the Supreme Court of Canada and special counsel is being retained on that question because of its significance.

There was not, when the Estimates were prepared and committed to print, an item that encompassed these two constitutional costs that I'm estimating - opti mistically perhaps - but estimating is all I can do at $50,000.00, 2683 There is a total here in these items that I have men tioned which will likely have a cost impact in '82-83 of $420,000.00, I should say that there may be two offset ting items, one has to do with the Canada Legal Aid Cost-Sharing Agreement; we expect a federal announcement on that some time within the next few weeks.

It's our hope from what we've learned to date that there will be some increase by the Federal Gov ernment in its share of the cost of Legal Aid. Again, because of changes that have taken place in the way

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 in which the trust funds kept by lawyers bear interest, because there's been a change that will increase the amount of such interest, and under The Law Society Act that interest is shared between Legal Aid and the Law Society Educational Program, usually but not necessarily in a ratio of 75 percent to 25 percent, that there may be a substantial increase. It's quite possible that the total amount of interest that will be earned on the trust accounts in '82-83 will be closer to $1 .5 mil lion than the hitherto $1. 0 million.

If that is so and if the division takes place in the same way, we might antici pate an increase and it goes into Consolidated Revenue although attributable to the Legal Aid Program of about $375,000.00. Those then are some of the programs which are developing and are not reflected in the Estimates out side of the Victim Witness Assistance Program which is reflected in the Supplementary Sup ply Bill now before the House.

My final comment, by way of introduction, is that in preparing these Estimates for submission to commit tee and through committee to the House, I worked from the Estimates that had been prepared through the various depar tments and commissions and pretty well stuck to those Estimates, cutting appr oximately 22 positions that had been asked for, and reducing the original asked amount by about $880,000 and have now come forward with the Estimates that ap pear in print with some additions that might impact during '82-83 as I have indicated. That much by way of intro duction, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for St. Norbert like to respond to this point or do you want to get into the Estimates? The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Before I make a general comment, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could ask the Minister a question. The Attorney-General is reputed, shortly after having been ap pointed Attorney-General, to have said that he got tired of trying to earn an honest living and got into law with Joe Zuken's firm. Would he now admit, Mr. Chairman, that since he is the Chief Law Officer of the Crown, this is the most dishonest living he has ever earned? HON. R.

PENNER: How can you say that of a job that keeps somebody occupied from 7:30 in the morning until 11 :30 at night for less money than I was earning before I came here? MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, many of the refer ences the Attorney-General has made are - under standably so in a transitional year - to items which were under active contemplation by our government and I refer to, for example, the Fine Op tion Program where we had passed the legislation, I believe, at the last Session of the Legislature and a program was under way and discussions under way in order to implement that program in this coming year.

The Vic tim Witness Program, I think, was under active con sideration as was The Law Enforcement Review Act, the amalgamation of courts question had been referred to the Law Reform Commission and, hopefully, we will be receiving a report from them shortly. The Minister did refer to a number of matters under which we can raise questions, I think, as we get to the individual Estimates in departments. A couple of questions though, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has referred to 23 new staff person years and has referred to where 11 of those are located.

It would be helpful, I think, if he could indicate at this stage where the balance of the positions have been allocated. He has also referred to special counsel for the constitutional case, the Bilodeau case. I wonder if he could indicate whether he has changed counsel. Thirdly, it was the practice for a number of years, Mr. Chairman, when I had the privilege of carrying through these Estimates, I think at that time, for the then Member for St.

Vital, our now Speaker, to undertake when we got to Salar ies, to have some officials present from the Liquor Control Commission in view of the Attorney-General's responsibility for the Liquor Control Commission in order that he would be in a better position to answer some questions at that stage. If he would be kind enough, we would like to follow that practice, particu larly in view of the Budget and the large increase in revenue that the Liquor Control Commission has been asked to provide to the government.

We would like at that time to get some indication from the Com mission as to exactly how they propose to raise that amount of money and some compari son of prices with neighbouring provinces. If the Attorney-General is in a position, perhaps he could answer those few ques tions now. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, yes. With respect to the new staff, they are as follows. So I'll give you the overall breakdown and then we can look at the exact positions as we come to each one oft he appropr iations.

In General Administration, it's 1. 39 one staff man year, 39 weeks - Civil Litigation, 2; Criminal Prosecu tion, 26 weeks; Law Reform Commission, 26 weeks; Manitoba Human Rights, 1; Land Titles, 1; Queen's Bench - these are the articling law grads, it should really be Queen's Bench, County Court and Court of Appeal, 5; Provincial Judges' Courts, 6, and as I inti mated, these are all clerical sp read throughout the system; Sheriff's Office, 2; Legislative Counsel, 26 weeks; Public Trustee, 2; Legal Aid, 2; Personal Prop erty Security Register, 13 weeks.

That's a sub-total of 24 staff man years and 26 weeks. 2684 There's a reduction re the Chief Medical Examiner because of the arrangement where that person is now appo inted as a faculty person and we'd buy back some of the time so it's not a staff man year. So the net total is 23 staff man years, 26 weeks. With respect to the Constitutional case, no, I have not changed counsel. The same counsel will con tinue.

What I have done is I have retained strictly on a consulting basis on some of the constitutional aspects for an opinion, Professor Dale Gibson of the Faculty of Law at the University of Manitoba who has given us an opinion that counsel, Kerr Twaddle, has wel comed. We have, in fact, a depa rtmental working group, given the significance of this case, that has been working very closely and very well. That includes Mr. Tallin, Chief Legislative Counsel, myself, the Deputy and the Assistant Deputy, Mr. Twaddle, Mr. Gibson and Roger Turenne, the Chief Co-ordinator of Language Services.

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 With respect to the request to have officia ls of the Manitoba Liquor Control Com mission at the time the Minister's salary is discussed, by all means, with the General Chief Executive Officer and the Chairman of the Co mmission. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, I think the general manager is sufficient. HON. R. PENNER: Okay. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, on constitutional negotiations, has the Attorney-General any plans in mind as to whom he would retain for advice outside of his department or other government departments? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I have retained for an initial opinion, Mr.

Colin Gillespie of the law firm of Taylor, Brazz ell, McCaffrey - whatever, it goes on forever sometimes - Carr. Mr. Gillespie is specializing in Native and Aboriginal rights questions and I've asked him for a preliminary opinion on the significance of the Native rights in Manitoba, the extent of treaty rights, what Native rights there are outside of treaty rights, what are the parameters of Aboriginal rights in the Province of Manitoba and I'm having that kind of input from Mr. Gillespie at this time. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, has the Federal Minister of Justice established a time

schedule or a schedu le of meetings on this subject? HON. R. PENNER: Not to my knowledge. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, just one other spe cific question. Does the Attorney-General plan on introducing any amendm ents to The Builders Lien Act at this Session of the Legislature? HON. R. PENNER: I have in fact been working with the Legislative Counsel on that and with the special advisors to the Legislative Counse l, Mr. McJannet and David Newman, and there are some imperfections in The Builders Lien Act which is I think quite under standable in a new Act.

There is not unanimity between counsel or among counsel on some of the best means of resolving those problems. It was my hope to be able to introduce the amend ments in this Session. I am still aiming to do so, but I should say that a lot will depend on how members genera lly feel as to the length of the Session. It's not easy legislation and what I would propose to do is once I've had a look at the draft in final form is, in fact, discuss it with the Op position House Leader and the Member for St. Norbert to see whether it's possible to expedite its passage. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr .

Chairman, the Attorney General referred to a possible recovery of costs from the Federal Government with respect to the imple mentation of The Young Offenders Act. I take it that question has not been resolved yet. HON. R. PENNER: There is a general undertaking on the part of the Solicitor-General. I'm not so sure that undertaking is the right word, but it certainly has stated that accepts in general the federal responsibi l ity to assist the provinces financia lly because of the cost of implementing this program.

I accept the Solicitor-General at his word, but between the word and the deed falls the shadow of federal-provincial politics. I'll believe it, I guess, when I see it, not being from Missouri but from Manitoba, which has some what the same problems. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, could the Attorney General indicate what his plans are for dealing with provincial offences in young offende rs? Does he plan to bring forward legislation before the effective date of April 1, 1983? HON. R. PENNER: Yes.

As I mentioned earlier, we do have an implementation group that have representa tives from the Juvenile Court system - Judge Kimel man, for example, Chief Judge of the Juvenile Court - from the Com munity Services, from Legal Aid, and one of the responsibilities with which that implemen tation group is charged is to review whether or not there is, in fact, a gap that will be created with the imp lementation of The Young Offenders Act. Well, there will be a gap because as the Member for St. Norbert knows there are a number of what are called status offences in The Juvenile Delinquents Act.

That is they are not offences if committed by an adult but only if committed by a juvenile, and The Young Offenders Act will only accept ju risdiction over a young offender if that offender is charged with a crime as defined for adults. So that will leave for considera tion, what do we do with some of the things that have hitherto been charged under The Juvenile Delin quents Act sim ply because the person was a juvenile?

For exam ple, that ill defined and perhaps undefin able amorphous entity - sexual immorality - the type of thing, I sup pose, which one judge said he knows it when he sees it but he can't define it. One wonders what he was looking at when he made that statement, but there are problems here. My own opinion is that there are a whole number of the status offences which we'll likely not want to treat as offences, nor is it the intention to create a sort of provincial juvenile court.

The thought is that some of the matters that were dealt with under The Juvenile Delinquents Act that may require attention, but not in a criminal law correction syste m, but perhaps under the provisions of The Child Welfare Act for example. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, the Attorney General has been quoted and reported upon with respect to the Charter of Rights on a number of occa sions and perhaps he can attempt to clarify his posi tion.

He issued a news release on January 29th of this year in which he indicated that Manitoba will imple ment fully all provisions of the Charter of Rights ex pected to be entre nched in the Canadian Constitution. In a news

article subsequent to a speech he gave, the report indicates that he was forming a Departmen tal Task Force to propose changes to any Manitoba statute which conflicts with the Equality Rights sec tion of the new Charter of Rights. He has ap pointed Professor Gibson, the Chairman of the Human Rights Com mission, to conduct a study into the impact of the 2685

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 new Federal Charter of Rights and Freedoms on Mani toba law, pa rticularly in areas of possible conflict between the two. Subsequent to that announcement, Professor Gib son is quoted as saying that: "H undreds and perhaps thousands of sections of Manitoba statutes are void under the provisions of the new Charter of Rights and Freedoms." It is reported that Professor Gibson said: "The government can take several courses of action to deal with nonconforming legislation.

It can refer the statutes to the courts for an opinion, wait for an indi vidual to argue a case before the court or invoke the notwithstanding clause in the Constitution." The Attorney-General has indicated in the House that he expects to receive a report, pe rhaps not the full report but at least an interim report by the end of the summer and has undertaken, I believe, to distribute that report to members of the Legislature when he receives it.

Is it the Attorney-General's position that he and this government will never use the notwithstanding provi sions contained in the Constitution and that he will amend all provincial legislation to conform with the Charter of Rights and judicial decisions. That appears to be the posture that the Premier and the Attorney General have taken.

If it is, I would say to him, it may not be the wisest decision to make because he may very well find there will be judicial decisions that will be made in the future interpreting the Canadian Char ter of Rights and its effect on Manitoba law that will not be acceptable to his government and he may wish to use the notwithstanding clause provision in the Constitution. I wonder if the Attorney-General could indicate his position on that question. HON. R. PENNER: Yes.

First of all, with respect to the Departmental Task Force headed by Professor Gib son and employing some Faculty of Law students over - the summer, certainly that report when ready will be tabled. I believe it will indicate that there are, I'm not so sure thousands, but certainly many provisions of gen eral statutes which are possibly offensive to the Char ter of Rights. It would not be possible for that Task Force to review all of the public statutes of the Prov ince of Manitoba.

I've asked that it concentrate on the main ones, the ones that affect most people most of the time and that is those who come, in a sense, into conflict with the law, so that high on the list of priori ties for examination will be The Highway Traffic Act, The Liquor Control Act, just to use these as examples. Now, in the event that the report says that

Section 132 - and that's a fictional number - of a certain statute offends a certain

section of the Charter of Rights, that is true, there are two courses. One is to say oka y, we know that, thank you very much, and wait until someone raises it in the court and let the court decide. It seems to me that I would not want to be that passive and I would not want the government to be that passive. Where I've come to the conclusion after consultation within the department that the opin ion is right, that the

section clearly offends, I would rather be in the position of amending the statute so that we're not caught in a sense after the fact, that someone has to go through the whole expensive bus iness of litigation and the expenses, both that of the individual alleged offender and the province, to estab- lish something which is fairly clear on its face. Sometimes, the kind of amendment which might be necessary to make a statute conform to the Charter would be relatively minor.

It might have to do some thing with improving -and I'll use this as an example because it does creep up in many provincial statutes - improving the standards required for the issuance of search warrants or the conditions under which search warrants might be required and where they might not. Now, with respect to the notwithstanding clause, the position I have taken is this - and let me just summarize it very, very briefly- let us suppose that a court says that a certain

section offends the Charter of Rights, and the charter after all is a charter of funda mental rights and freedoms, and if that's clearly estab lished let's say at the appellate level, it might not have to go to the Supreme Court, that that is so.

Then for a provinc e, any province, to say notwithstanding that it has been found at an appropriate judicial level that this law offends fundamental rights and freedoms, we're going to have it anyway, I really don't think that is an appropriate step for a province to take if the province is committed, as this province is, to the notion of the Charter of Rights as being a constitu tional Charter of Rights and qualitatively different than the Statutory Bill of Rights. You have one or the other to try and live in some nether world.

Some limbo in between means that you have neither, you don't know what the law is, and certainly one of the principles of legality is certainty. We should know what the law is and not have a situa tion where any government so minded can do an end run - I've used that term before - around the charter. You see, and I'll conclude - and I hope this hasn't been too long an answer - with this observation. 2686

Section 1 of the charter does say, "subject to such reasonable limitations as are acceptable in a parlia mentary democracy." Now, that assumes something about our legal system and about our parliamentary system which I think is right: namely, that we do rec ognize certain reasonable limitations. That's part of our legal and political heritage. I don't think that we're going to have, as is anticipated, a number of wild decisions that carry our political and legal system to some kind of world of judicial and political horrors. I don't anticipate that.

I think that what will happen is that courts will look at the reasonable limitation. I' ll use one example. Someone might come and argue that for a condition with respect to the imposi tion of bail that the person - let's say in certain cir cumstances - has refused bail, that constitutes viola tion of the mobility rights in the charter. Well, no court in my view, and certainly no Appellate Court, if a lower division court were to hold so, would sustain that notion.

They would say, well, it is a reasonable limita tion on one's freedom of movement that if a person is charged with a serious crime, and bail - let us say in a homicide case -is refused, I think that will be held as a reasonable limitation. So I really don't see the need, first of all, given

Section 1 of the charter for enacting the notwithstand ing clause; secondly, if a province says it's prepared to do it as, indeed, has the Province of Quebec, it tears the charter into shreds and tatters. It makes it a nonen tity and I'm not prepared, nor the Premier advises is he

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 prepared, to take that position at this time. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm not advocating at all, similar legislation to that of the Province of Quebec. I'm trying to determine whether the Attorney-General in this government will reserve the right in the future to use the notwithstanding provi sion of the Charter where there is a judicial decision that is not acceptab le, but any legislator who deals with legislation in the rights of competing groups, they must balance the rights of one group against other rights.

The Attorney-General seems to be say ing that he's prepared to let the court make that final decision on social issues. Let me ask him a question. Let's suppose the courts struck down the first-contract legislation that the gov ernment is proposing as violating one of the funda mental freedoms. Is the Attorney-General saying that he and his government would accept that decision and would not in that case use the notwithstanding clause although they with their philosophy, their polit ical philosophy, felt that first-contract legislation was the right thing to be done in Manitoba? MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN, A.

Anstett: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Well, first of all, on the general question with respect to the spectre which is raised and been raised most forcibly, not only in this prov ince but, I think, nationa lly of the courts making a final determination and the imp lication there is that is unusual in our system and ultimately a thing to be abhorred.

In fact, we have a constitutional system and there have been important pieces of social legislation struck down by the Federal Government on the grounds of unconstitutionality within a framework that we know:- name ly, that the particular Act whether it's federal or provincial is ultra vires, that is, beyond the power of the particular enacting jurisdiction. That has taken place. I'm sure that the Government of British Columbia, for examp le, when it in the late '60s, early '70s passed a bi ll with respect to LSD which was not then dealt with by federal legislation; it was a new phenomenon.

Who had ever heard of it? They passed some amendment to The Provincial Health Act purporting to deal with it as a health problem but, in fact, providing penalties because of its concern that the Federal Government had not acted. The then Government of British Columbia thought that this was a very very important piece of social legislation. and I don't pass judgment on whether they were right or wrong. But the B. C.

Court of Appeal and ultimately the Supreme Court of Canada struck down that legislation as being ultra vires, that in fact, it was in essence criminal law and only the Federal Government could pass criminal law. So this is nothing new in our legal traditi on, nothing new at all. We've had pieces of social legislation in Manitoba dealing with the question of special needs under the Canada Assistance Program struck down at the Appellate and Supreme Court level, if memory serves me, as being ultra vires, beyond the power of the Provincial Government, so it's nothing new.

The question is asked more specifically, what would the province do if a particular piece of legislation such as the first-contract legislation were held to be in violation of fundamental-freedom? I just can't imagine that happening. But let's suppose that a particular piece of legislation which represents a firm commit ment on the part of this government were to be struck down by the courts as being in violation of the Charter of Rights. Well, for a court to do that at the appe llate level, to go higher, the court would have found that, in fact, what we have done was a violation of fundamen tal freedom.

I think we would have to examine that legislation and try to re-enact it in a form which was not offensive as found by the court. That's part of the political cost of accepting the notion of an entrenched charter. I admit that it can create difficulty. They've lived with it for a couple of centuries in the United States and, although the United States is often cited as a horror story, it's just as often cited as an example of good government. I think that by and large the assessment of the effect of the first 14 Amendments of the U.S.

Constitution, their Bi ll of Rights, that the overall assessment of its impact has not at all been ruinous to the fabric of a democratic society. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, hopefu lly, to con clude this subject, is the Attorney-General indicating that there's not the slighest chance that they would use the notwithstanding clause in the Constitution? HON. R. PENNER: It's not for nothing that the Member for St. Norbert has a reputation of being a good law yer. They say on a clear day, you can see forever, but never is too big a word for political life.

I think I would have to say that one can conceive of possibilities where a government might want to con sider the notwithstanding clause. Quite frankly, I can, given the reasonable limitation clause, but I don't think that I want to put myself in a position of foreclos ing all future governments in this province from the kind of extreme situation which was utterly unfore seen and for which no apparent remedy exists other than the notwithstanding clause. Now that is a bit of an equivocal answer, but you see, it's not for nothing that I've been a lawyer for a long time either. 2687 MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN, P.

Eyler: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate whether new legislation that has been brought into the House, say, at this Session, in particular the Rent Control Bill, is there a procedure for reviewing new legislation prior to its introduction in the House in order to determine whether, in the opinion of those who review it, it complies with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? HON. R.

PENNER: It's a very good question, and to be very frank about that, in my view, we have insuffi ciently developed the mechanisms, so far, for scrutin izing legislation as it's coming up the legislative pipe to make sure, insofar as we can, that sections of it do not offend the charter. Let's take that particular exam ple, The Rent Review Regulation Act, that if there are concerns of that kind that are expressed, as I am sure they will be, if they are there at Law Amendments or

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 whatever committee the legislation comes before, that I not only hope, but I expect that we will take a very close look at such concerns and make such changes as may be necessary if we are convinced that, indeed, there is force to the argument. We're certainly not going to be dogmatic about any particu lar

section of any legislation and say, well it's ours, therefore it must be good, in that sense, and if repres entations are made, cogent representations, that there's a potential breach with the Charter of Rights, we'll certainly have a very good look at it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Attorney-General would, perhaps as a small test or experiment, be prepared to request Professor Gib son's Committee, or whatever committee he wishes, to look at Bill No. 2- and we haven't seen the details of the first-contract legislation - but to look at that bill also and provide a copy of their report to Members of the Legislature before they are dealt with at the Law Amendments Committee stage in order to determine whether or not, in the opinion of the group that looks at them, they comply with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. HON. R.

PENNER: I'm quite prepared to do this. I'm not enamoured of the particular mechanism being proposed, the idea that is being suggested of very close vetting of legislation, particularly new legisla tion, is a good one and I accept it. I am prepared to have a very good look at the '3R' Builder and Regula tion Review Act, or is it the Rent Review Regulation Act?

The 3R Act - could we refer to it as that? - with respect to a number of provisions that may be pro blematic even before it comes before Law Amend ments and if I'm of the opinion or members of my department share that opinion with me that they're potentially offensive, to discuss it with the Minister. MR. G. MERCIER: Did the Attorney-General indicate he would provide a copy of the committee's report to members of the Oppo sition? HON. R. PENNER: Which committee? MR. G. MERCIER: We really haven't determined which committee would look at it.

I had referred to Professor Gibson's Committee because that was the only one that I was aware of that the Minister had in place to look at Manitoba Legislation. HON. R. PENNER: The undertaking I have given is, first of all, with respect to the Gibson Report; we'll call it that or the Gibson Task Force. The Gibson Task Force is not and will not be looking at the 3R Bill; there will not be time.

I have undertaken to take a look at the 3R Bill myself to see whether there's any advice I can give to the Minister, but that would not be the type of advice which I think would be the subject of a report to be tabled in the House. I am sure that if I give advice to the Minister that there is, in my view, a

section which violates the charter, that there would be little difficulty in the Minister taking a good look at that particular section, together with Chief Legislative Counsel, to see what alternatives might be proposed. But there has to be a certain level, when we're working at the Cabinet level, of the exchange of interdepartmental and Cabinet memos that are not the subject of reports being tabled in the House. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. A. AN STETT: Mr.

Chairman, with regard to the question discussed earlier, the constitutional discus sions both last year and this year, I wanted to ask the Attorney-General if he has, at this time, or if he can obtain during the Estimates, the cost to the taxpayers of Manitoba of the representations, counsel, travel, etc., associated with Manitoba's role in the constitu tional negotiations over the last fiscal year '81 -82? HON . R. PENNER: Yes, if you'll bear with me, I have those figures and facts. The total constitution expenses 19 81 -82, are $1 44,267.24. Of that sum, ap proximately $96,977 was lawyer fees.

There were other profes sional fees; printing and stationery for $20,000, pos tage, phone and telex, the high price of communica tion, I sup pose, $1 8,000, and miscellaneous, making a total expended on the constitutional exercise of '8 1- 82, of $1 44,267.24. MR. A. ANSTETT: I would like to thank the Attorney General for that information. The next question relates to corollary to the consti tutional discussions and that is the cost to Manitobans of the Supreme Court ap peal and our representations, additionally, on the ap peals by certain other provin ces in which we enjoined.

What was the amount of money involved in that or is that represented in the earlier figure? HON. R. PENNER: It's contained in the earlier figure; I haven't got a breakout of the cost at various levels. Don't forget there was an ap peal before the Court of Appeal in Manitoba and then before the Supreme Court. I don't have a breakout on a court-by-court basis. MR. A. ANS TETT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair man. One other question with regard to the discussion in The Young Offenders Act.

Will these changes that are being proposed affect the Voluntary Probation Officer Program in which Judge Kimelman was involved with certain community groups, whereby young people were provided with obligations to per form community service?

I think, perhaps, specifically in my constituency, operating out of the Beausejour court, assignments were done with community groups in the RM of Springfield, particularly in Cooks Creek, a very, very successful program and I'm wondering if the whole funding under The Young Offenders Act is going to affect this in any way, whether it will enhance it or whether this is going to be diminished because of that. I know there have been concerns both ways about that program. 2688 HON. R. PENNER: I agree that has been a very good and a very successful program and I don't think it will disappear.

Certain programs of that kind hitherto associated with the Juvenile Court will be maintained but be of - this is not a nasty word - a bifurcated

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 jurisdiction, a split jurisdiction. That is, some things will be run under The Young Offenders Act and some things will be run in whatever mechanism we have for dealing with persons below the age and not in conflict with the law in the sense of having committed a crimi nal act. The implementation committee to which I referred earlier is looking at programs now existing and what programs can successfu lly be transposed between one system and the other. MR. A. AN STETT: Mr. Chairman, the Attorney General very specifically addresses my concern.

I understood that there was going to be some splitting of responsibilities and essentia lly a program with dif ferent components. I guess my concern that I would like on the record, and appreciate the Attorney General's comment upon would be, that this particu lar program which I persona lly feel has been very successful not fall by the wayside during that period; in fact, that it be viewed as something which could become an essential component and have a useful role to play under both sections of this bifurcated program, if we can describe it as such. HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, there is no reason at all why this program should fall by the wayside and, in fact, I see if anything an increased need for it. MR. DE PUTY CHAIR MAN: Are there any other ques tions on the opening statement? The Member for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a question or two for the Honour able Attorney General dealing with the translation services and our relatively slow approach to translation within the Legislature. I wonder if the Minister would be able to provide us with a breakdown of what costs on transla tion are apportioned to the Department of Legislation.

What part goes to actual court costs and what part may, in fact, go to another department such as the Department of Cultural Affairs? MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN, A. Anstett: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: All translation costs are under the Department of Cultural Affairs. The Department of the Attorney-General bears none of those costs. They're all allocated to the Department of Cultural Affairs and there is a translation section, a translation unit pres ently housed over on York Avenue, I think it is, that has the responsibility for, in the main, to aspects of translation.

Let me just deal with French-English as a particular examp le. One has to do with the legal side and the other, general. With respect to the legal side, there are persons employed as legal translators, but that is in that department and those are the ones who primarily have the task of translating statutes which, as you will have noticed already in this Session and in the pre vious Session, come forward to the Assembly in both languages. MR. H. GR AHAM: A supplementary question then.

Dealing with the operation of the Law Courts in gen- eral which have always in the past provided transla tion services to varying degrees, I would like to ask the Attorney-General if there has been any significant increase in the costs of translation services since the Supreme Court decision? HON. R. PENNER: No, there has not, not within the court system itself. The increase in cost has been with respect to the translation of statutes. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: Any further questions on the opening statement? I take it actually we're on 1. (

b) Executive Management

(1) Salaries- pass; 1.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass; 1.(

c) Administrative Ser vices

(1) Salaries. $583,800- pass. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I' ll ask a question that could be asked here or probably later. I wonder if the Attorney-General could indicate the status or pro gress of any of the computerization program that has been looked at for a number of years - promised. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. As the former Attorney General knows, the Department of the Attorney General is uniquely suited to the development of Data Processing Systems.

There's an immense amount of data which is fed into the system and all of it, well most of it, is of considerab le value in terms of it being stored and readily accessed. That has to do with such things as the Personal Property Registry System, the family maintenance system, accounting systems. Our record with the systems and this, under the former Attorney General, certain ly has been a good one.

The tracking of family maintenance payments between spouses and the initiation of enforcement action has been enhanced enormously by the Data Processing Sys tem we have in place there. 2689 The Personal Property Registry System which was introduced by Mr. Sinnott, who is with us today, is the registration of security interests in property other than realty has more than paid for itself. In terms of accounting systems, we have in place a pilot system now at 207 Dona ld, that's the Provincial Judges Court office, to handle rural court fine collec tions and distributes these through the accounting records.

With respect to development plans, here again under the leadership of Mr. Sinnott, we had approved recent ly at Treasury Board level some developmental plans for the Land Titles system and that will be at the beginning a selective automation of certain functions to improve the security, the accuracy, the efficiency of the Land Titles system. The first phase of that automa tion will bethe general register which has been, as any lawyer who practises any kind of conveyancing knows, a horror and the cost is both to the province and to individua ls.

Again, the developmental plans include a system called "Promise" which is an acronym for something I wouldn't even hazard a guess but that, I know, is an automated case tracking system to be inst alled initia lly in the Provincial Judges Court and the Criminal Div ision. The benefits of that will be the automation of some of the tremendous amount of paperwork, improved scheduling of court dates and the improved

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 reporting of statistical data. Again, as one, who in years gone by, practised in the criminal courts as I did in the civil courts, the question of being able to get a handle on statistical data, of who it is that is appearing before the courts, with what regularity and what crimes. We have general statistics but they are far too general and it is our hope that the "Promise" system will access more of that infor mation. Now there is some delay encountered in instituting the "Promise" system.

We're waiting for an amended version of the program We now have finally accepted delivery of the latest version and that will be available in Manitoba; we may be the most up-to-date system in North America on that and the insta llation work is expected to start very shortly. Court accounting sys tems are in the developmental stage that will provide for certain automatic accounting functions to increase the efficiency of court operations. There are a numb er of other small applications that are being developed. MR. DEPUTY CHAIR MAN: Item 1.(

c) Administrative Services

(1) Salaries $583,800- pass; (c)

(2) Other Expenditures $89,000- pass; (

d) Canada-Manitoba Gun Control

(1) Salaries $47,9 00.00. The Mem ber for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Attorney-General if he has been receiv ing as many letters from concerned citizens as many of the MLAs have, regarding a possi ble or proposed change in gun control legislation at the federal level? If he has been receiving it, what advice is he giving the various concerned peop le? MR. DEP UTY CHAIR MAN: The Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: I guess I'm usually the last person in the world to hear about these things, but I haven't received one letter of concern about anticipated changes in gun control legislation and I will freely admit my ignorance in this regard, but in no other. I haven't even heard of anticipated changes in federal legislation with respect to gun control. MR. H. GR AHAM: Well, Mr. Chair man, I've had representations from various sporting groups and indiv iduals in society. Most of them, I believe, are referring to a private member's bill being proposed in the House of Co mmons by Warren Allmand.

I was quite surprised that the Attorney-General hasn't received any comp laints from individ uals and groups in society, because they seem to know our names anyway and are sending us their concerns on seem ingly a fairly regular basis. HON. R. PENNER: I haven't. I now understand the reference a little better if it is as indicated by the Mem ber for Virden. I thank him for the information - a private member's bill. - then its chances of seeing the light of day are pretty slim and I don't expect that there will be any significant change in gun control legislation for some time.

I say that, given the rather sorry record of the passage of legislation partic ularly criminal legislation through the House of Co mmons. The Young Offenders Act, about which we were talk ing a short time ago, was first mooted in 19 74. 1 partic- ipated in some of the early discussions on that bill; it was a White Paper on young persons in conflict with the law when I was a member of the -( lnterjection ) in the late 60s - you see, I'm younger than I thought, or is it older? I'll settle for either.

But it's taken an unconsciona bly long period of time for that legisla tion to, as it now has, be enacted and so too, with other Federal Legislation. In any event, to the Mem ber for Virden, there is no anticipation at all of any change of that kind. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (

d) Canada-Manito ba Gun Cont rol,

(1) Salaries - the Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chair man, I wonder if the Min ister could simply indicate on this item whether or not he has had occasion in the six months since he's been in office to make any representations to the Federal Government with respect to this progra m. HON . R. PENNER: No, I haven't, but I am in receipt of informa tion from the City of Winnipeg that the City of Winnipeg is most unhappy with respect to the cost to the City of Winnipeg of this progra m.

The City of Winnipeg does feel that its cost is far exceeding the reven ues, that the revenues that were anticipated from the program were somewhat exaggerated - by whom I don't know or in what way I don't know -and, indeed, as recent ly as a couple of hours ago today, I was discussing this question with representatives from the City of Winnipeg and simply took their con cern as notice with a promise to representatives from the City of Winnipeg as an undertaking I will give to the Mem ber for St. Norbert that, indeed, I do want to look at this partic ular operation.

I have not had the opport unity to do so hitherto, but if there is some sense that the costs are outstripping the revenues, then there is a case to be made to the Federal Gov ernment for increased federal contributions. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: Canada-Manitoba Gun Control

(1) Salaries $47,900- pass; (d)

(2) Other Expendit ures $8,300- pass; Item 2. Legal Services (

a) Civil Litigation

(1) Salaries 1, 045,200.00. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chair man, the Attorney General indicated there were two additional staff man years in this department. Are they lawyers? HON. R. PENNER: There is one Legal Counsel 2 and one Administrative Secretary 3, are the additions in that program. 2690 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chair man, I think this is an appropriate place as a numb er of others to raise this qu estion.

Short ly after the Attorney-General's appointment he indicated that he was keeping the CFI case open and is reported to have said that in both the civil and criminal actions, the government will be checking its expenses to see if they are warranted. We are sti ll ahead on a cost-benefit basis, but on both matters we are scrutinizing each step. I wonder if the Attorney-General could indicate, perhaps just to con clude the whole subject, the status of the civil and criminal prosecutions and whether or not he's made

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 any judgment on these matters or any change in procedures. HON. R. PENNER: I had hoped to be in a position to make recommendations to Executive Council sooner than now. The matters, of course, as the previous Attorney-General knows, are extremely complex. I would expect that, certainly, we will be carrying for ward the civil action against the AD . Little Company, at least for some time. I'm having that file reviewed now very carefully and am expecting an opinion within the the next four to six weeks as to the next steps to be taken.

With respect to the criminal action, I've instructed counsel for the province to examine some documents which have recent ly come to light in Switzerland, so that a full opinion might be given to me as to the status of the actions in Switzerland, which are potent ially against three persons there. Ricer. Zingre and Wuest, and I expect that the report that I will have on the status of those actions might have some bearing on whether or not any further proceedings will be taken against the principal involved name ly, Alexander Kasser.

At the moment the situation with Kasser is that the court in Innsbruck has, on the indictment there. found no case and it's dormant in Austria. Whether or not there is any basis for it being carried forward, I'm not yet in a position to say. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: Civil Litigation

(1) Salar ies, $1 ,045,200- pass. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman. perhaps just one question again. Some of these questions can be ans wered under courts or under this section. Perhaps I could ask one fairly brief question.

As a result of the decision of the Supreme Court case in the Polglase decision from British Columbia -a nd this may be more appropriate under courts, if the Attorney-General wants to refer to it there, fine - but could he indicate whether there has been an increase in applications in family matters to the County Court and the Queen's Bench away from the Family Juvenile Court, as a result of that decision? Has it been significant? HON. R. PENNER: I can only answer the question, as I say, anecdota lly and impressioni stica lly.

That is, I don't have the numbers, but I have been told by per sons who practise Family Law actively at all three levels, that is, the Provincial Judges' Court, Family Division; County Court and Court of Queen's Bench, that indeed the number of applications coming before the federal courts have increased significantly since the Polglase decision. I may say that the Federal Minister of Justice and indeed, as I understand it, all provincial Attorneys General seem to be agreed on the need for some change to

Section 96 of the Act, to give wider jurisdic tion to provincial judges. I am meeting with the Fed eral Minister of Justice in early July to discuss that question with him and some other questions as well, but that one

part icularly, and hope to be able to urge upon him the steps to be taken to amend

Section 96, so that provincial judges do have the wider jurisdiction. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Attorney General is correct. I think there's unanimity on the question of amending the Constitution to give provin cial appointments the power to deal with family mat ters.

In view of the significant change in matters com ing before the federal courts as opposed to the provincial courts in family law matters as a result of this decision, has the Attorney-General given any consideration to and he may have and it may have been rejected - to suggesting that the Federal Minis ter of Justice appoint provincial judges in order to give them the jurisdiction to deal with all of these family court matters at the present time until the Constitution is amended, so that there is no significant transfer of applications from provincial courts to the federal courts? 2691 HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, perhaps this may be the last question before "committee rise." One of the alternatives that has been looked at is a possibi lity I believe it's used in one other province, perhaps Newfoundland - of making provincial court judges local judges of the federal courts so they can in fact deal with these matters which are then sent up almost as a report through a federal court judge to say. okay - I'd rather not move on that because of the significance of taking that step without first con ferring with the Federal Minister of Justice, but it is obvious ly something to be considered. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman. it seems to me even though there's unanimity, perhaps that the process of constitutional amendment will still be quite slow for other reasons. It did seem to me and does seem to me to be an interim step that could avoid a lot of problems and a lot of transfer of jurisdiction between the courts. So perhaps it is something that should be given some serious consideration, particularly if other provinces are experiencing as they probably are, similar transfers of applications from the provincial courts to the fed eral courts. HON. R. PENNER: I agree. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Civil Litigation:

(1) Salar ies, $1 ,045,200- pass; Other Expenditures, $87,900 -t he Member for St Norbert. MR. G. ME RCIER: Could the Minister indicate how much - I believe it would be within this department -is included for retention of outside counsel? I think there's been a practice of including $50,000 per year, is that simply maintained? HON. R. PENNER: I believe that in a fit of unbridled optimism. again, in preparing these Estimates, there was no sum provided for the retaining of outside counsel. I'll check into that and -( lnterjection ) $1 0,000 for the record. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30 p.m ..

I am leaving the Chair in accordance with Rule 19 (2), for Private Members' Hour. Committee will reconvene at 8:00 p.m. this evening. Committee rise

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 SUPPLY -EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, J. Storie: This Committee will come to order. I direct members' attention to Page 46, the Estimates of the Department of Education, Item No. 4.(b} Cur riculum Development. We are continuing with Item 4.(b} (1 ), Salaries. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I think that we had all of our questions answered on that and, in fact, were about to pass the item when time expired, so pe rhaps we can pass that item. If I'm not mistaken, the Minister gave us the latitude to discuss Cur riculum Services under the same item, and so actually that one can be passed as well. We can go through (b} and (

c) and then get to item (d} if we would. MR. CHAIRMAN: If that's the understanding, (b) (1 ) pass; 4. (b}(2)- pass; 4.(b) (3)- pass; (b) - pass; 4. (c) (1 )- pass; 4.( c) (2)- pass; 4.(c) (3)- pass; 4.(c)(4)- pass; (c)- pass; 4.(

d) Native Education,

(1) Salaries - the Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, under this item the Member for Roblin-Russell had brought up a situation that exists in a number of school divisions in his area and, in fact, I believe exists throughout the province in a number of situations in which services are being provided to Native students on a shared-services basis with a number of divisions. Would this be the appropriate place to discuss that item? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M.

HEMPHI LL: It doesn't appropriately come under this category and, in fact, we have pe rhaps passed the category that it would have come under, which was Grants to School Divisions. I'm quite pre pared that any questions that were missed, because we didn't know or realize the appropriate area that we would handle at another time, we might just continue with what is, in fact, in the Native Education Branch and deal with that at the end of the session and any others that were missed. MR. G.

FILMON: In that case I would just simply ask the Minister, in view of the fact that there does not appear to be any major increase in the funding given under this section, $461 ,000 versus $484,000 this year, are there any new initiatives that are carried on in that section? HON. M. HEMPH ILL: Mr. Chairman, I think the initia tives for the coming year are the completion of activi ties that were under way.

There were a number of major programs, a Native Studies Prog ram that was being developed for Grades 7 to 9 which is in the process of being completed; programs for Native lan guages in Cree, Ojibway and Dakota, levels K to 7; revising the K to 12 Social Studies curriculum and making recommendations to the Social Studies work ing party. I think in this area, we are maintaining and finishing up the existing progr ams and we are com pleting a series of K to 6 language development teach ing units for August.

Major thrusts for the Branch over the next few years will be the provision of consultative inservice support to assist teachers in the use of materials that we've been focusing on developing for the last couple of years. A lot of the materials are now ready and it's helping teachers get them in to the existing curricu lum that we will be concentrating on. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I'm familiar with some of the initiatives that are being carried on and I believe they include more or less a development of materials that will assist teachers and educators in various areas in dealing with the special needs of Native students and developing sort of attitudinal prog rams that will help them in integrating within the school system and placing special emphasis on their differing needs and differing social circumstances and so on.

So if this is the case, then perhaps we can pass along to that and then I would, at the end of this item, just ask the questions about the shared use of facilities and the funding that is being given to divi sions in order to accommodate Native students. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d) (1)- pas s; 4.(d) (2)- pass- the Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could just indicate if there are concerns or problems on the horizon with respect to divisions that currently are accommodating Native students on almost a contrac tual basis with various Bands threatening to pull out and therefore leave the division with excess facilities, short of resources and whatever have you, as a result of it. 2692 The Member for Roblin-Russell indicated a number of divisions in his area, students in the Rossburn area and so on, Pelly Lake School Division, in which they are threatening to pull their students out of the Divi sion and form either their own educational facilities, or whatever have you, and that has implications on the public school system in the area, whether or not the Minister has people working with these groups to try and if not mediate, certainly discuss the options so a decision will be made that doesn't hurt the students or those who are involved in their education.

HON. M. HE MPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I think I menti oned when we discussed this item previously that we are aware and watching what is going on in a number of areas and that these are legal contractual agree ments between schools, between the Bands and the Federal Government and the school division. It is our understanding that in the particular case raised by the Member for Roblin-Russell, negotiations and discus sions were still under way and that we're hoping that they will be able to be resolved between the parties who are the ones that should be resolving the issue.

We're going to have to, I think, recognize - and I mentioned this too - that we're in a pe riod of transition where there are changes being made and most of us are encouraging more involvement and activity and pa rticipation by the Native people in their own affairs and things that are very important as the education of their children. So, it's going to take a lot of coopera tion and a lot of concern by all of the levels that are presently responsible so that the children aren't in the

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 end, the losers. I have written the Federal Minister, Mr. Munro, and indicated that in terms of the tripartite agreements that are presently required, that at the provincial end we are prepared to change the legislation so that school Bands are un der the category of institutions that can directly negotiate contracts and will not require agreement by the three levels. We're prepared to do that in the next Session to eliminate some of the problems. MR. CHAIRMAN: Continuing with Item No. 4. (

e) Vocational Education; 4. (e)

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, there was a Co operative Vocational Educational Project commenced in 19 81. Is the government carrying on with this and what intentions does it have with respect to this par ticular area? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we do intend to continue with the program that was initiated last year. Twenty-six students have already com pleted the program; 17 of them in mechanical repairs and 9 in metal machinery. The Member for Tuxedo will perhaps notice that there was an increase in staff man years.

That was to allow for two additional people in this Co-operative Vocational Program. The two existing areas that I mentioned are metal machine and mechanical repairs and we were looking at developing a dental assistant program. These people have not been hired. We are not yet sure, I think, if we are going to be able to develop the program in time for implementation in this Budget year.

There are a number of things related to the planning, I think, that we may have to look at and those people may not be hired, in fact It doesn't mean that we're not prepared to continue the program; it just means that it's not quite ready to go into the third program of activity this year. MR. G. FILMON: In the field of Vocational Education, and I know this overlaps with the area of teacher development, but does it continue to be a problem to be able to hire and develop teachers who are ade quately qualified in the field of Vocational Education? HON. M. HEMPHI LL: No, it does not, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Item 4. (e) (1)- pass; 4. (e)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass; 4. (

f) Measurements and Evalua tion; 4. (f)

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: This was an area that was deve loped, set up under the previous administration. Is the Minister satisified with the functioning of this

section and what are her intentions for the future with respect to the Measurement and Evaluation section? HON. M. HEM PHILL : Mr. Chairman, the present plans for this

section are to do business as usual, I suppose, might be a way to describe it They have been in the process of evaluating about two programs per year and allowing school divisions to decide whether or not they want to test the whole class and use the information at the classroom level which is an addi tional benefit, I suppose, to the provincial information that we get We have no changed plans. We're continuing with the assessment We had writing in '79; reading in '80; science in '80; mathematics in '81 and chemistry in 19 81; health this year and writing is the course that's coming up in the next year. MR. CHAIRM AN: 4. ( f)(1 )- pass; 4.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass; 4.(

g) Bureau de !'Education Frani;:aise, 4. (g) (1 ), Salaries. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: The Chairman did an admirable job on the pronounciation there. I wonder if I could just ask the Minister if we could have the latitude to dis cuss under this all-French language training with respect to whether it be core or immersion or ques tions which will come up, because I've more or less indicated to our members that this would be the place to discuss it Then we could, I think, have a little easier time of covering all our questions that way.

I wonder if the Minister could perhaps begin by giving us some indication of growth, which we all know exists in French language training throughout our provincial education system, giving us perhaps the numbers of people who are now enrolled in Frani;:aise, immersion, core French and other similar programs in the province at the moment? HON. M. HEM PHILL : Mr. Chairman, the Member for Tuxedo is quite right when he talks about, I think, significant increases in numbers of students taking these programs in the last couple of years.

With Eng lish as a second language, the Immersion Program now has about 6,000 students and that is an increase of about 40 percent within the last year from about 4,500 students to about 6,000 students. The conversa tional French is 75,000 students and that is a fairly stable student population in Conversational French. The Core French, which was introduced by the pre vious government as a pilot project and is in its second year, has had a very significant increase. It started out with 1, 300 in the first year, 2,2 00 in the second year and will be up to 3,500 students.

The Native French is a fairly stable population, French as a first language, about 6,000 students. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: The reference to Native French is Frani;:aise, where that is their primary language? 2693 I'm also familiar, Mr. Chairman, with the fact that a good deal of the money, the funding, that is available in this area does come from the Federal Government I wonder if the Minister could give us some indication of breakdown in funding for the various types of instruction, and how it is allocated? HON. M. HE MPHI LL: In a general

summary, out of the $4.2 million in 19 80-8 1, the revenue from Canada, we received about $2.6 million which was approxi mately 62 percent In general, I think it's fairly accu rate to say that we always recover 50 percent and that

Tuesday, 25 May, 19 82 because of our ability and the ability of our staff peo ple in making sure that we get our fair share, number one, get everything that we're entitled to: but number two, take advantage of money that is available for spec ial programs. We often recover more than the 50 percent, up to 60 percent; I think we do very well in that area. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Min ister could indi cate which of the program areas will be emphasized, and which of them appear to be going to be giving some major cause for expansion in the future, or is it all of them?

The Minis ter has given us some indication in the last few years on each one although I'm not sure if she gave us the figure for Franc;:aise other than the $6,000 this past year, how it has grown as well, and just give some indication of projections for the near term on those. HON. M. HEMP HI LL: Mr. Chairman, I think the two areas, the Native French is a fairly stable population, there isn't a major expansion there and the Conversa tional French seems to be staying fairly stable.

I think if we had to guess or if we had to project, since we shouldn't be guessing, our projections would be that there might be a decline in the Conversational French as there is an expansion in the Core French, because they would be moving out of the one into the other. The Core French Program. we expect to increase the numbers coming into the program this year at the same level as came in last year. There were, I think, 2,200 add itional students in the program last year and we are accept ing an add itional 2,200 students into the program this year.

Immers ion is growing signific antly and I would say that the Immersion Program and the Core French Program are the two areas where the major movement is. To give you an example: Immer sion went from 1,840 students in '77-78 to 2,476 in '78-79, to 3,086 in '79-80, to 4,327 in '81 and we're project ing 5,915 in '82. Core French and Immers ion are the two MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Min ister could dis cuss to some extent what problems she foresees, firstly, in finding qualified teachers to teach all of the various specialized subjects in the French language.

As a parent of a couple of children in this area I know that to be a problem. And secondly, what that the expansion of the immersion Programming and the core French programming, what affect it will have on unilingual English teachers seeking employment in the future within the public school system? HON. M. HEMP HIL L: Mr. Chairman, I think I remember in the dis cussions we had earlier talking about teacher supply and talking about the ways that we meet the areas where the high demands are.

One of them is that we do have annual discussions and meetings with the presidents of the universities and the deans of the faculties of education to communicate expansion of program and program needs that we are finding in the field so that they do get annual information on what the major areas of need are. Secondly, the study that the Research Department did for us when they looked at how teachers were being utilized in the field, I think clearly showed that our problem is not always one of having trained teachers but using them for the special ized training which they have.

That a number of teachers might have been, I wouldn't say misplaced, but may have been teaching programs or courses totally unrelated to their area of knowledge. One of the major areas identified was the ability to teach French, that there were a fairly large number of teachers who communicated academ ic skills, train ing, a feeling that they were capable of teaching in this area and yet were not being used to teach the pro grams at all. So perhaps we continue with those things and we improve the training, but we certainly should look at the utilization of existing trained people.

Also, I think it's becoming fairly clear to students who are going into the field of teaching, they are getting good information about where the heavy needs are. where the demands are not just when they leave school, but earlier on. This is being ident ified as an area where there will be expansion and need and, therefore, we hope that more of them will go into that field. MR. G. FILMON: Yes.

The root of the question that I was getting at was the difficulty, I believe, that exists and will continue to exist until an adequate source of supply is developed for the teachers in an immersion program or even in a Franc,;aise program to go into specialized areas, such as somebody who can teach Grade 11 Biology or Grade 11 Physics, who

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-61a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 61a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7712013f7f7bb3bf9be3718b26e72c0a58a5cb6c

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