Manitoba Hansard — 20 November 1989 (Sitting 74A, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-74a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 20, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROC EEDINGS INT RODUCTI ON OF BILLS BILL NO. 87-THE EMP LOYMENT STANDARDS AM ENDMENT ACT

(2) Hon . Gerrie Hammond (Minister of Labour) introduced, by leave, Bill No. 87, The Employment Standards Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les normes d'emploi. INTRO DUCTION OF GUESTS � Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct ' Honourable Members' attention to the gallery where we have from the Pinawa Secondary School twenty six Grade 12 students. They are under the direction of Mike Bigelow and George Turner. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lac Du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). Also this afternoon we have twenty students from the Polyvalente Tournesol School in Windsor, Quebec. They are under the direction of Mr. and Mrs. Mastine.

On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Karen Ridd Arrest - El Salvador Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Cummings). Mr. Deputy Premi er, this morning we learned that a Manitoban, Karen Ridd, a social service worker, has been arrested in El Salvador. Karen is the daughter of Carl Ridd whom many of us know through associations here in the Legislature.

Can the Deputy Premier tell us if his Government has been in touch with the Department of External Affairs or will they get in touch, so that we can facilitate the return of Miss Ridd to her family as soon as possible? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, I certainly want to extend the concern of all people in Manitoba for what has happened, and I want to assure them, assure the family and assure the Opposition that we will be making that contact, because certainly we hope that Manitobans, no matter where they go to work, can expect the support of the people back home for what they are doing. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker , I thank the Deputy Premier, and we hope that he will be able to facilitate her immed iate return to our province. 2986 Free Trade Agreement Subsidy Negotiations Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a new question, Mr.

Speaker, my question is again to the Deputy Premier. Those of us who watched Venture last evening were extremely disturbed by an account of Canadian business closings, their operations in Canada, and some who are expanding but who are doing all of that expanding south of the border and not in Canada. *

(1335) It is a particular concern when the su bsidy negotiations are beginning next month in Ottawa, and provincial and federal economic and social assistance programs will be under review to determine whether they comply with the Free Trade Agreement. Because the Free Trade Agreement is so broad, there is no legal obligation to consult with the provinces to discuss provincial programs which may be on the chopping block. Can the Deputy Premi er, or perhaps the Premier himself, tell the House today what programs have been identified in Manitoba as to be potentially negotiated? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I am not aware of any programs such as the Leader of the Opposition has referred to. Mrs. Carstairs: The Americans have clearly indicated that they believe all of our programs in social service areas, from the Med icare Program right through to agricultur al programs and the Wheat Board, are in fact subsidy programs, and they want those programs on the negotiating table. Can the First Minister tell the House today if the issue of subsidy negotiations was raised at the First Ministers' meeting last week, and what was the response to those questions raised? Mr.

Filmon: For more than two years, since the Free Trade Agr eement has been an issue in Canada, Mem bers of the Opposition, Li berals and New Democrats, have suggested that our social programs and medical programs were somehow at risk. Mr. Speaker, there has been no evidence whatsoever that any of those programs are at risk. Would the Americans do it? Would the Americans bring that up as an issue? Of course, they would bring it up as an issue. Does the agreement give them any more ability to make this an issue in terms of our trade agreement? No, it does not.

It did not prior to the Free Trade Agreement, and it will not as a result of the Free Trade Agreement. Beyond that of course we have a dispute settlement mechanism which will, if they raise the issue, have it

Monday, November 20, 1989 before a tribunal that will ensure the letter of that agreement is carried out, not the wishes of some politician who is in Washington and who the Member for Transcona (Mr. Kozak) spoke to last week when he was there. It has absolutely nothing to do with it. Those programs are not in any way affected by the Free Trade Agreement despite what the Leader of the Opposition says. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, the First Minis ter is being ostrich-like.

We have watched over the past year the di smantling of UI C and the lowering of benefits, particularly affecting this province to the greatest extent in the entire country. We have watched the Wheat Board be eroded with the contribution coming from our Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay). Can the First Mini ster tell the House, are there procedures -(interjection)- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Leader of the First Opposition. Mrs.

Carstairs: The question is, are there procedures to involve the provinces, since the Free Trade Agreement is strictly between the federal Government and the Government of the United States? Are there procedures so we will be instantly informed as to what programs in this province may well be affected by subsidy negotiations? Mr. Filmon : The Leader of the Opposition is being Chicken-Little-like. There is nothing within the Free Trade Agreement that puts at risk any of our social or medical programs, not at the federal level, not at the provincial level.

So it is not a question of being informed, it is question of her being informed about what the agreement states, and it is not in the Free Trade Agreement. *

(1340) Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, what is in the Free Trade Agreement is a decision on both parties to discuss subsidies. That is in the Free Trade Agreement. Can the First Minister of this province tell us what input the provinces, and particularly this province, are going to have in those subsidy negotiations, because we have no faith in the federal Government in not negotiating all of our programs away? That is exactly what they did under FTA. Mr. Filmon: Social and medical programs were not bargained away under FTA.

Let the Leader of the Opposition not put that kind of foolish, irresponsible statement on the record. She continually makes those kinds of blanket, irresponsible statements that are designed to stir fear in the hearts of people. They are absolutely what they are intended to be; th at is fearmongering. That kind of irresponsibility has no place in this Legislature. Mrs. Carstairs: The question is very simple. Does this Government have sufficient concern about programs available to Manitoba citizens that it a say in the subs idy nego tiations, which begin almo st immediately between Ottawa and w''"h,inr1tnn? Mr.

Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition may be a little behind in her reading. I can tell her that at the Premiers' Conference in August, in Quebec City, that was one of the communiques, that the First Mi nisters demanded an assurance that they would be involved in the ongoing implementation of the Free Trade Agr eement , as they were involved in the discussions that led up to the Free Trade Agreement. Karen Ridd Arrest - El Salvador llllr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

It follows the first question that was raised to the Deputy Premier dealing with the imprisonment today of Karen Ridd, an imprisonment in a treasury police prison that took place today. She was arrested with other refugees at the Episcopal church. I talked to Mrs. Ridd this morning about this arrest.

I would ask the Premier, in terms of the provincial Government, have we sent yet a strong commun ication to the External Affairs Department, the Honourable Joe Clark and his department?- because in answers in the questions about Karen Ridd in the House of Commons this afternoon posed by Ed Broadbent there was very little commitment from the federal Government to condemn the Government of El Salvador for the arrest of Karen Ridd. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Leader of the New Democratic Party may be aware that I know the Ridd family personally.

I have been tied up in meetings all morning with the Canadian Manuf acturers' Association so I have not been informed of the details of the news reports. I would certainly ensure that a commu nication was sent to Ottawa to insist that the imprisonment of Karen Ridd is protested in the strongest possible diplomatic terms. El Salvador External Affairs Intervention llllr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the Government of El Salvador is engaging itself in a systematic removal of international witnesses, whether it is through alleged assassinations that took place last week with Jesuit priests or the elimination of people by kicking them out of the country and having further atrocities take place in that country. I would ask the First Minister, has he expressed any opinion to the External Affairs Department in terms of the $8 million in aid from Canada going to the Government of El Salvador, which many of us believe is being used for a terrorist and extreme government on the citizens of El Salvador? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have not been in contact with the Department of External Affairs 2987

Monday, November 20, 1989 on the matter. Obviously the events unfolding in El Salvador since last Friday have been a tremendous concern to all of us and I will certainly be in contact with External Affairs expressing our concerns about Karen Ridd and the events that are taking place there. *

(1345) Government Condemnation Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, last week Joe Clark, according to Mrs. Ridd, called the Government of El Salvador a moder ate government, and she has great concern, as many Manitobans do, that we are continuing on with more of an American approach to El Salvador rather than an independent Canadian approach to the atrocities that are taking place in that country.

Will the First Minister outline not only our condemnation for the arrest of Karen Ridd and her impr isonment but also recommend to the Canadian Government that there be strong and independent condemnation of the El Salvador Government and there be condemnation of the granting of funds by the U.S. Government to this regime, which on Saturday kicked out a Lutheran minister from Canada and on Sunday three members from the Lutheran congregation have gone missing. Will he in strong terms express his condemnation on behalf of the people of Manitoba and peace-loving people everywhere? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I will ensure that we express to Minister Clark our extreme concern about this and our desire that the federal Government take an independent position and evaluate the concerns and the actions of the Government of El Salvador to ensure that we are doing whatever we can to protect not only the innocent Canadians who may be involved in the struggle, but that we evaluate the position of the Government of El Salvador with respect to our involvement. Canada- U.S.S.R. Trade Port of Churchill Usage Mr.

Gary Doer (leader of the Second Oppos ition): I have a final supplementary on another international but very important matter to Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister of the country is in the Soviet Union conducting negotiations that are alleged to have a potential $1 billion in trade benefit to Canada. I notice in the First Minister's statement to the Prime Mi nister in the First Ministers' meeting there was not a mention of the Port of Churchill.

I would ask the First Minister whether in the material going to the Prime Minister in negotiations with the Soviet Government and the President of the Soviet Union whether we have in fact asked for and proposed in those tr ade negotiations a strong transportation linkage with the Arctic port, the Port Churchill, which is so vital to Manitobans and northern Manitobans? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the Member knows full well that we have consistently supported the 2988 ongoing use of the Port of Churchill, ensuring that all of the economic activities in Churchill and surrounding areas be strongly supported by not only this provincial Government, but by the federal Government. We have been involved with them on matters of tourism, the rocket range, the proposed national park and many other issues, including the transportation of grain that the Min ister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger) has successfully pursued.

We will continue to be in contact with the federal Government to ensure that where there is a place, a viable place, for the Port of Churchill to be involved in any dealings, nationally or internationally, that that consideration will be given. An tonio Ferreira Deportation Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr . Speaker , my question is to the First Minister. Our nation, like others, will be judged on the treatment of its citizens as well as the treatment of those wishing to be citizens. The federal Immigr ation Department, however, is today forcing the dep ortation of Portugue se construction worker Antonio Ferreira.

Mr. Ferreira has shown his commitment to his wife through a three-year common-law marriage leading up to his recent formal marriage to his Canadian wife, and they are expecting another child as well as that they are proud parents of a two-year-old girl. He has bought his home and proven he can work to support a family. Has the First Minister been informed of why Immigr ation now wishes to deport this Manitoba resident? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): No, I have not, Mr. Speaker. Family Services Involvement Mrs. Gwen Charles (Se lkirk): Mr . Speake r, my question is to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson).

There have been allegations that her social assistance staff has interfered in the reporting about this resident. Can the Minister give us a result of the investigation her dep artment has under taken to determine what influence her staff has had on the effect of Mr. Ferreira's residency? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): I am informed that the staff have been following this case and have dealt with it appropriately. *

(1350) Antonio Ferreira Government Intervention Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, because the federal Department of Immigr ation has once again shown its determination to move out residents of Manitoba and have them deported from Canada, will this Government intervene on behalf of Mr. Ferreira to make sure he has had a fair and just hearing? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice and get the information on the details of the case prior to giving a response to the Mem ber for Selkirk.

Monday, November 20, 1989 Speech Th erapist Shortages Government Initiatives Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Questions have been asked repeatedly by our own Health Critic regarding the lack of speech pathologists for preschoolers. The long wait for assessment causes delays and increased cost of therapy for those childr en and their families. We are continuing to hear that the same problems occur in the schools. The Flin Flon School Division has been without services of a speech pathologist since last summer. They state in their letter that this particular problem is true for six other positions in this branch.

Some areas have been without services for two years. To the Minister of Education, what steps are this Minister taking to correct these problems with these much needed services in all of our province, but more particularly in our northern part of the province? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): It is true that we do have some shortages in regard to professional people in the hearing and speech pathology area. Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you that we have arrangements with our neighbouring states to the south with regard to exchange programs, and in fact earlier this year the First Minister signed an agreement with Minnesota whereby students from Manitoba would be able to access the universities in Minnesota at no dif ferential tuition fee and vice versa, it is true. For that reason we are able then to send our students south of the border to take advantage of the programs which are offered there. Additionally, Mr.

Speaker, every year I send staff from my department to recruit graduates from the universities who graduate speech pathologists. It is no dif ferent this year. We will be spending considerable sums of money to ensure that we can recruit as many people as we possibly can into this whole area. It is true that there is a lack of people, trained professionals, in that profession. Recruitment Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): This letter states in very severe terms the difficulties that they are having up in the North, up in Flin Flon.

What more aggressive steps will you be taking to try and recruit, to lure some of these people from other jurisdictions? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we are using every possible means that we can. There is indeed a salary scale in place whereby we try to attract people of that profession into our province. We work together with school boards to ensure that we can offer a very positive kind of environment to those people to attract them to the various communities.

We indeed do a fairly significant marketing program to ensure that we can attract every possible individual into this province, because we know that there indeed is a shortage throughout the province in that area. Policy Statement Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): I wish the word "ensure" would also include the area up in Flin Flon.

Will the Minister endeavour to live up to the statement that is in the August 1989 Special Education Report that says that it is the policy of Manitoba Education and Training to provide for all children in Manitoba access to learn ing opportuni tie s which are commensu rate with their needs and abilities? Will the Mi nister endeavour to live up to that particu lar statement? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Yes, Mr. Speaker. Goods and Services Tax Impact Ab original People Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): My question is for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

Last week, the Minister and also the Liberal House Leader both said they opposed only details of the GST as being flawed, and not the principle. Would the Minister release today the provincial study of how the GS T will im pact aboriginal people living on reserves in Manitoba, as the Minister should be aware of the GST technical paper released by Michael Wilson? The paper admits that the federal Government has not done any consultation or analysis of how the GST would impact the reserves. *

(1355) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I do not have the report with me to release, but let me ind icate to the Member that certainly there is an awful lot of uncertainty associated with how it is that the federal Government is going to apply the GST to reserves in Manitoba, indeed throughout Canada. We have tried to ascertain the impact and how the GST would be implemented and applied. To date we have not received full clarification as to th e implementation of the GST. Mr.

Harper: My supplementary to the Minister is: will the Minister consider doing an impact review of the GST on Indian reserves and aboriginal communities? Since there are clearly tax exemptions for Indian people, will the Minister consult with tl:le aboriginal people on this outrageous tax? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, probably it will come as not news at all that the provincial Government is looking at all taxation as it applies to reserves, giving some of the decisions that have been reached by courts in other parts of the country.

I believe our Assembly of Chiefs is also looking at the total impact of taxation, and certainly the goods and services tax is a very critical and relevant aspect to that whole consideration. Goods and Services Tax Government Position Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the First Minister. Since 2989

Monday, November 20, 1989 the First Minister failed to raise the cuts in post secondary education, will he now state to this province that he will not accept the GST regardless of changes to the current proposals, since a tax by definition hurts Northerners and reserves rather than urban centres and constitutionally is invalid according to

Section 87 of the Indian Act? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will repeat for the benefit of the Member for Rupertsland that we have gone on record publicly as saying that the tax is unacceptable and that we believe the proposal ought to be withdrawn. That is the position not only of this Government but of all the provinces in the country, who together at the Premiers' Conference in Quebec City signed a communiqu e. If he had listened to the presen tations in Ottawa last week, every single provincial Premier indicated that it was unacceptable and the proposal ought to be withdrawn.

Drought Assistance Acreage Involved Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, the widespread drought in 1988 of course devastated much of western Canada and was very well-publicized. I think everyone recognized it, including the two levels of Government, but this year, because the average yields are much higher there is a tendency to ignore the fact that there was considerable drought in 1989. In fact the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities has indic ated that one-thir d of the farmers in Saskatchewan actually had yields lower in 1989 than they did in 1988. Can the Minister of Agricultu re (Mr.

Find lay) give us figures as to the extent of the drought that occurred in southern Manitoba in 1989? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that about one-third of the cultivated acreage in Manitoba suffered from some element of drought this year, either from lack of moisture or from heat or the combination of the two. In 1988, over the entire Province of Manitoba where the drought impacted, we paid $1 30 million on crop insurance.

This present year, 1989, right now our indemnities that we have paid out in crop insurance exceed $80 million and we expect the final tally when all the claims are in to be $120 million, $130 million, maybe as high as $140 million of payout to farmers in the drought-affected area of the Province of Manitoba. For this year, the level of coverage on a province-wide basis is almost double on a per-acre basis than what it was in 1988, giving rise to the significant increase of payments in a much smaller area of the province. •

(1400) Crop Insurance level of Coverage Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, was the level of coverage in crop insurance in 1989 sufficient to elimi nate the need for any dr ought-assistance package being considered for Manitoba farmers this year? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Last year, about this time, I went around to a number of public meetings and I was repeatedly told the crop insurance at an average coverage of $65 an acre was not adequate. I agreed with them because I know the cost of farming. I asked repeatedly, what level of coverage do you think is adeq uate?

Cover our costs of production; they said, $80, $90, $1 00, maybe up to $110 an acre was the coverage they wanted. We made some program changes this year that gave farmers an average coverage in wheat across the Province of Manitoba of $11 2 an acre. All crops averaged right across the province $10 1 an acre. So we achieved the level of coverage that the farmers asked for, but I know there is still economic hurt in the farm commu nity and in all the agribusiness of those communities where the drought impacted this year.

We will analyze whether there are crops in regions for which there was not adequate coverage, and if we can make an adequate, well-documented case to the federal Government for drought support we will do it. Drought Assistance Federal Package Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister is indicating that he is at least willing to reconsider this. On Saturday the spokesperson for Charlie Mayer's office said that at that point his office had not been contacted by the Manitoba Government requesting any assistance for a drought-aid package.

Can the Minister then confirm today that contact has been made and that a drought package for southern Manitoba is in fact being considered? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): In terms of making a decision as to whether a drought-aid package will be requested, there has been an ongoing discussion with myself and farm organizations in terms of trying to develop any information. Certainly farm organizations and I have had contact with federal offices to indicate there is a concern out here and there is some need to analyze whether there is need for a drought payment. That is the process we are in.

Those contacts are ongoing, maybe not in written form, but they are ongoing in a verbal sense. I will be talking to that Minister tomorrow in Ottawa. Farming Industry Minister's Statement Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the issue of drought is only one aspect of the difficulty farmers are facing at the present time. I was very disappointed to read recently that the Minister, in speaking at the Mani toba Pool Annu al Me eting, ind icated that Manitoba's farming industry has emerged from the 1980s competitive and solvent. He said the overall farm debt picture is much better than many people think.

I ask this Min ister, with farmers facing high interest rates, two dr ought years in a row as we have heard 2990

Monday, November 20, 1989 and we have discussed here in the House today, rail line abandonment that is growing in many areas of this province and low commodity prices that they have suffered for a number of years, how can this Minister make those kinds of ridic ulous statements to the farmers of Manitoba? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): The Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) finally asked the appropriate question, where are the facts. I will put the facts on the table right now. Farmers own 80 percent of their equity and that has been a consistent basis.

We have 25, 000 farmers in rural Manitoba and only 300 cases per year coming to the Mediation Board. So that does not give rise to the laughable comment that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) just put on the record when the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) predicted gloom and doom. The farm commu nity is optimistic. They meet their chall enges, and they have done it consistently throughout the 1980s, where we have had high interest rates, low commodity prices, trade wars and drought.

They have met those challenges well, and they will continue to meet them well regardless of the ridicu lous comments from the Member for Dauphin. Government Initiatives An Honourable Member: Happy days are here again. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Obviously, Mr. Speaker, for those 300 farmers before the Mediation Board. In view of the fact that farmers in Souris see things quite differently-as a matter of fact, Wayne Finlay, who happens to have a name very similar to this Minister's, said they are in for massive foreclosures in that area in the coming year.

I would like to know which Findlay/ Finlay knows what he is talking about. I would say it is the Finlay from Souris, not this Min ister. I ask this Min ister, in view of the fact that he refuses to assist the farmers in making their case, he said they have to make their case to Ottawa. I ask him, what action is he prepared to take? Is he prepared to get off his hands, prepared to put forward a strong case and develop that case on behalf of those farmers so they can receive the assistance that they should because of the difficulties they have been facing? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): As usual the Member for Dauphin does not pay any attention, even to a person's name. The person's name is Walter Finlay, not Wayne, and we had a major discussion in Souris, back and forth between the farmers and myself, and I said I was prepared to, if they could put the facts in front of us plus the facts that we can develop through crop insurance, put the case together to determine if there is a need in certain regions of the province, take that case to Ottawa.

That is the nature of the discussion that has been ongoing with the farmers and the farm organizations in rural Manitoba. It is not their negativism that the Member for Dauphin always wants to put on the record. The farmers of Souris and area are very responsible kinds of individuals and they know that they will not get support unless they can develop an adequate case. We will work with them to achieve that. Mr. Plohman: The Minister does not listen to what they say but he gets their names right. I guess that is what is important for him.

He said in his statement to Manitoba Pool that we need to develop programs and policies. I ask this Min ister, what policies and what programs is he bringing forward since his Rural Development colleague Minister (Mr. Penner) has not brought forward any policies to assist rural areas, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger) has not brought forward any policies and programs to assist those facing rail line abandonment?

I ask him, what programs and policies is he developing to assist farmers facing the impacts of free trade, low commodity prices, high interest rates, and rail line abondonment in the rural commu nities? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Findlay: We have done a number of things in the past, whether it is reduction of education tax or drought programs in the past, the kind of things that are helpful to the farm comm unity, plus crop insurance programs, plus risk protection programs of tripartite stabilization.

Th ose progr ams are only stopga p to the major difficulties the farm community faces in terms of the high interest rates, the low commodity prices, drought and trade problems. Our agriculture in this country and this province is geared to export markets and they must be able to competitively access those export markets or they are not going to be able to survive in the future and those are the kind of program policies that we will be looking at with a futuristic approach rather than the hindsight approach. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! St. Charles West land Sale Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please.

The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. Order. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): I have a question for the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger). I am sure the Mi nister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has informed him of a noise complaint from one of my constituents on Optimist Way when he was doing door knocking. Incidentally, Mr. Speaker, he provided my constituent with no answer. My question to the Minister is- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 2991

Monday, November 20, 1989 ***** Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; ord er, please. The Honourable Min ister of Finance, on a point of order. Ho n. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I have a very important point of order. As a matter of fact, I did provide an answer, and that was to remove themselves of their sitting MLA. That was the answer I provided. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister does not have a point of order. ***** Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia was just about to pose his question. Mr. Mandrake: Why did the Minister authorize a sale in St.

Charles West to a private developer of two lots for $3,895 per lot, which violates his own guidelines of 1, 500 feet setback from a major highway? *

(1410) Mr. Speaker: Honourable Minister of Highways and Transporta tion -o rder , please. I am sure the Honourable Member for Assiniboia would like to hear the answer to his question. Order. The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation. Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Speaker, my first supplementary to the Minister is, I would have hoped that he would have had an answer, because I asked the same question in Estimates. Mr. Speaker, these two lots are- ***** � Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. The Hon ourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon.

James Mccrae (Go vernment Ho use Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the Honourable Member has been around here long enough to know that you do not have to have a pream ble for a supplement ary question. Before he embarks on a lengthy

preamble he might keep that in mind. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Government House Leader. Order, please. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, kindly put your question now. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Speaker, these two lots are exactly 85 feet from the Perimeter Highway. Why do we have regulations when this Min ister disregards them? 2992 Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transpo rtation ): Mr . Speak er, the Me mber has indicated that he raised the question in Estimates.

I have to indicate that during the Estimates process, in the rush to get through my Estimates, he put so many questions on the record and we have been trying to follow through. I have been trying to get a whole bunch of the answers back and reams of stuff that I have basically brought to him. I apologize that I have not addressed this one, and I can indicate to him I will have an answer for him by tomorrow. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Speaker, I will table this letter for the Minister dated September 27, 1989, whereby he provided me wit h the answer. I will have to give you a copy of this- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mr. Mandrake: My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is, this Minister authorized a land transfer of 3.351 acres in exchange for .709 acres from the developer. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, order. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandrake: The Minister of Health thinks it is very, very coy to have been a paratrooper. Well, I am a proud paratrooper, not like him. He is sitting here all this time- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mr. Mandrake: And he is- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order.

I would like to remind the Honourable Member for Assiniboia this is not a time for debate, this is Question Period. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, kindly put your final supplementary question now, please. Mr. Mandrake: This Minister, Sir, authorized a land transfer of 3.35 1 acres in exchange for .70 9 acres from the develop er. Would he tell us what was the actual cost to the developer for this land, and was this a fair market value for the land? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I will check. Maybe I have answered that one as well. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair

Monday, November 20, 1989 and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOT ION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Su pply to be gr anted to Her Ma je sty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Member for Burrows (Mr. Chornopyski) in the Chair for the Department of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs. CONCURRENT COM MITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HEALTH Mr.

Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): If you take your place we will call this meeting to order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Health. When last we met we were dealing with item 4.(

b) the Chief Provincial Psychiatrist: 4.(b)

(1) Salaries, $142, 100-th e Honourable Minister. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr . Chairman, before we carry on with debate in Mental Health Estimates, I have one question that was taken regarding nursing vacancies. A nursing vacancy survey by the Manitoba Health Services Commission, in co-operation with Manitoba Health, the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses and Manitoba Education, is conducted on a monthly basis. All facilities over 50 beds, the Department of Health, Health and Welfare Canada, schools of nursing, and the Mental Health centres are included in the survey. *

(1430) This survey provides information on the number of EFT positions; the number of vacant positions and vacancy rate by facility, by bed size and by region; the number of EFT positions and the number of vacancies by type of position, by region, by type of position, by facility; the number of EFT positions and number of vacancies by type of position, by facility; and the number of same vacancies as previous month by facility. A substantial amount of staff time is required for follow-up in order to obtain information from all the facilities. Therefore the survey results tend to be delayed by three to six months.

The most recent available results are for March, 1989. More recent results will be available in approximately three weeks. The present nu rsing vacancy rates by nu rsing category March 31, 1989, are, in terms of the category of administration, 3.8 percent; general duty RN, 3.2 percent; general duty RPN, .3 percent; general duty LPN, 1. 2 percent, for a total vacancy rate of 2.8 percent across the system. Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Last week when we were discussing that, I think we were at Mental Health Clinical.

Now does the Minister wish to go back to Chief Provincial Psychiatrist so we could ask him some specific questions? Mr. Orchard: I believe we are on that item right now, Chief Provincial Psychiatrist, so questions would be most appropriate. Mr. Chairman: We are on item 4.(b)(1). Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister of Health tell us, and maybe he could ask the Chief Provi ncial Psychiatrist, what specific recruitment measures have they taken?

Since we do not have many psychiatrists in Canada who are willing to come to Manitoba, what have they done to recruit people outside this country, and what is the rate of their success, and can he table that? Mr. Orchard: Well, we have discussed this, in part or in full, over the past number of days that we have debated Health Estimates. We have discussed it to some degree in Research and Planning when we were dealing with that at the start of the Estimates, more recently, in terms of this specific

section of the Estimates. Manitoba, I believe, has led in the federal-provincial commit tee to develop strategies to overcome the psychiatrist shortage. That is an initiative that Manitoba has put before our federal-provincial confreres. I believe the officials committee is to report to the Deputy Ministers by December of this year. As I mentioned earlier on, the Canadian Psychiatric Associ ation annu al national convent ion was in Newfoundland and for the first time the province and the association hosted a short reception.

During that reception aspects of career practice in Manitoba were discussed, as one could understand, with a number of Canadian and even American psychiatrists who were present at the convention. That initiative alone has lead to dis cussions on a fairly serious basis with one individual. We recently , within the last num ber of month s, interviewed all of Saskatchewan's psychiatric residents in an effort to present to them opportu nit ies in psychiatry in Manitoba.

A specific selling point there of course was entry into or description of our Career Residency Program to possibly encourage some interest from current psychiatric residents in Saskatchewan. Mr. Chairman, that is some of the initiatives that we have undertaken in the last little while. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, as the Chief Provincial Psychiatrist is responsible for co-ordinating the head of the psychiatry units both in the City of Winnipeg and the rural centres, can the Minister indicate to us what specific measures are being taken?

This is not an uncommon situation to have over the weekend when you cannot have an acute-care bed, and at times the patients have to stay in the observation unit even when they need an acute-care bed. In many cases the patient may have to transfer from one place to another and that is not only causing substantial stress to the patient and the families, but I think it is draining the tax dollars. The assessments are being du plicated, because when one patient is transferred to the other hospital at the time the assessment is made again, and 2993

Monday, November 20, 1989 there is involvement of the time factor, the emergency departments of two hospitals are innovatively involved. What specific initiatives have been taken in the past one and a half years to make sure that there is uniformity and the availability of the vacancy of the beds in a central system where the residents on call or the psychiatrist on call can phone in and find it out so that the time can be saved? This is my second question. At times the patients are brought into the emergency rooms on a warrant by the police.

At times the police do not phone the hospital units and they bring those patients, and that is again causing this same situation. What is being done or what will be done to make sure that the police are also informed almost on a daily basis about the bed vacancy in various hospitals, so that there is not a duplication of services, No. 2, there is not stress to the patient, and No. 3, that the care can be given at the earliest time possible? Mr. Orchard: Specifically in terms of the availability of acute treatment beds, Dr.

Wightman, at the Health Sciences Centre, has recently accepted the role of co ordinating the psychiatric bed situation each day so that we attempt to avoid the type of circumstances that my honourable friend has just described. Mr. Chairman, that of course was part of the reason for the initia tive with the Salvation Army in the establishment of the eight-bed crisis stabilization unit at the Salvation Army. That is an intermediate care facility, intermediate level care facility which we hope will red uce the demand on the acute-care facilities.

In addition to that, some initiatives in terms of the reform of the Mental Health system have concentrated on a more enhanced level of capability within the community. Some of the initiatives that emanated from the reform of the Mental Health Division within the department and the commi ssion in the subseq uent $900-plus thousand that was dedica ted to six community based projects. In part, some of those are designed particularly in the City of Winnipeg to provide additional support and early intervention in the community.

Some of the earlier identification of problems and some of the earlier, if you will, community- based resol ution of those problems will, we fully expect, reduce maybe attempt of admission to an acute care bed at some two or three weeks down the road should the individual's difficulty be essentially unintended. Mr. Chairman, I say to my honourable friend that a number of initiatives are under way. In terms of the recruitment effort, let us not forget about the attempt at salary enhancement that was made, and I think with some success.

We have, I believe, the latest number of increased psychiatrists who are now practising in the Province of Manitoba. To some deg ree that has been stimulated, I think, by an overall activity that it is a balance of an obvious desire to reform the system, that Mental Health is a priority of Government, it is a recognition in part of the need for competitive salaries which the $1 0,000 annual would allow us to reflect in terms of our recruitment efforts. 2994 I think we are seeing some reasonably positive signs.

We have increased the number of actively practising psychiatrists in the last two years, primarily in the last 18 months by 15. It is starting to show some effects, but I simply say to my honourable friend, there is no overnight and easy solution. We are working on it in a number of fronts, inclusive of focusing the issue of recruitment and training at the national level in terms of us leading the committee which will report to the Deputys this December. *

(1440) Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister has not responded to my second major question in regard to when the patients are brought by warrant by the police. They are brought to the various emergency rooms and when they come there, most of the time if their bed is not available they have to be transferred to another unit. I think that is unfair to the police and unfair to the staff because assessments will be made on a repetitive basis. What is being done to make sure that the police have knowledge of where the beds are available in the city? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, that is exactly the kind of function that is envisioned with Dr. Wightman's involvement from the HSC to co-ordinate where acute treatment beds are available for such emergency requests for admission. Hopefully that will identify the kind of di fficulties that my honourable friend has identified. Mr. Cheema: Those difficulties are well-known to, I am sure, Dr. Wightman and also to the head of the emergency department and to the Chief Provincial Psychiatrist.

What I am saying is we are dealing with one side of the clinical people who are involved with the patients, and secondly, the police force who bring these patients on a warrant signed by either the family physician or by a psychiatrist. They bring these patients to the emergency rooms and at times we do not have a bed available. So in that way I think it will be an excellent id ea to have comm unication from Dr. Wightman's office to the police force and set up a commi ttee so that the duplication of services can be avoided, and also the patients are given the best possible treatment as early as possible.

That is not being done at present. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, to correct my honourable friend, that is the purpose of Dr. Wightman's involvement and there is communication twice daily to the City of Winnipeg police to indicate where there are acute care beds available but that does not prevent people coming in on their own as well as the occasional instance where the police have brought an individual to a hospital where the commu nication was there would not be a bed available. But that is exactly the direction that we are attempting to achieve with Dr.

Wightman's committee, inclusive of communication as to where beds are available. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, not only the police force and the psychiatrists are probably not aware of this

Monday, November 20, 1989 commi ttee. I think the primary care physician and some of the social workers and also the mental health worker are not aware of this committee. I think there has to be some commu nication developed to let them know that we have a comm ittee where the information can be provided so that the patient can be sent to the institution where they have an acute care bed available. Can the Min ister confirm that? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, beds are very highly protected by all of the institutions and this is a fairly innovative first step to have Dr.

Wightman co-ordinate the availability of supplies for all of the hospitals across the system. I think it is a pretty significant indication of the kind of atmosphere of co-operation that is out there between the facilities. As my hono ura ble friend knows, having di rect involvement in the system from time to time, those available beds are a very preciously guarded commodity at each institution but this is a very real and I think a very positive step toward bringing some co-ordination of the system together with Dr.

Wightman being, as I say, in da ily comm unication with her confreres throughout the system as heads of psychiatry at the various hospitals. All I can say to my honou ra ble friend is the observations he is making today have been recognized and this is a very significant remedial action that is being undertaken with Dr. Wightman and in co operation with Dr. Rodgers, the Chief Provincial Psychiatrist, in the Mental Health Division. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, one very practical difficulty and I am sure in one hospital, and maybe in other hospitals, is that the observation units do not keep patients who are either suicidal or on a suicidal observation, and that poses a lot of difficulty for the emergency staff and that is true for Seven Oaks Hospital. I am sure the Chief Provincial Psychiatrist is aware of that. In that situation, if the patient has to be kept in an emergency room for six to eight or one day it is very difficult.

So can the Minister find an alternate solution to this problem because there should be some mechanism to accommodate these patients? For example, if we do not have a bed in the whole city and there are no other alternatives available, to send some patients home or dislocate one patient from one unit to another which is not uncommon but at times when we have no such alternatives the patients are kept in the emergency rooms and that causes a lot of di fficulty for the emergency staff.

So what will be done from this Min ister's office to ensure the adequate protection to these patients and to the emergency staff or the reallocation of some of the extra resources, if need be, are given to those institutions? Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend again is identifying a problem within the mental health system. That is probably one of the easiest jobs of a critic. There are difficulties that are in the system and will continue to be in the system.

However, those difficulties are recognized and they are being addressed on almost all fronts of difficulties in terms of psychiatric and mental health services. The issue of suicide was very specifically addr essed in terms of the Suicide Information Centre. The focus group there has tended to be youth, but suicide information is valuable to all care givers, and that was a significant recognition of suicide as a growing social problem that the Mental Health Division ought to and Government ought to address. Mr.

Chairman, we are simply not going to resolve all of those di fficulties overn ight, but we are taking significant steps, significant strides. I point out to my honourable friend, the last time we met and discussed Estimates was Thursday of last week.

That was the first day of a kickoff of a three-day seminar, Thursd ay, Friday, Saturday, with among the major focuses being suicide, mental health problems, suicide amongst Natives, adolescent Natives, a very significant first step in terms of creating a cultural awareness of what may be underlying these problems and driving people to the decision of taking their own lives as adolescents in the Native Community.

I simply say to my honourable friend the problem is recognized, and the problem is one of many that we are moving on, not only in terms of active recruitment of staff when resources are available as well as pro actively investigating whether there are better ways that we can approach the issue in terms of the utilization of the resource. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, I would agree with the Minister that a definite number of initiatives have been taken, but my question is very specific.

When one patient is certified, if that individual is suicidal and if we do not have a bed in the whole city and we do not have another alternate facility, that patient-in certain situations like Seven Oaks Hospital you cannot keep that patient in the observation unit. That is their regulation, so in that situation it causes a problem not only for the patient but for the observation staff, and each staff gives their own reasons. What specific steps can be taken or will the Minister take to ensure that the adequate resources are available to handle such situations? Mr.

Orchard: My honourable fri end, recognize, understands the problem. The problem did not just pop up like a mushroom overnight, and some of the things that we are doing are inclu sive of earlier intervention in the community which is a positive step, because then hopefully the person never gets to the emergency ward and never needs a bed in a facility.

We are working with the development of intermediate placement opportunities like the Salvation Army, which could include someone with suicidal tendencies in the hospitals as an intermediate step, because all of these approaches I believe over the longer haul ought to result in a lesser demand of acute care facilities. In the meantime until they are effective and doing their job, We have from time to time, not all the time 2995

Mcmc:Jlav. November 1989 but from time to time with individuals, a circumstance where they are in an observation ward suicidally inclined and do not have the opportunity for placement. *

(1450) In circu mstances like that, some hospitals have chosen to provide direct staff support to the individuals so that they do not have the opportunity to be left alone to further contemplate suicide. That appears to be quite helpful in replacing the bed, and maybe that is more light at the end of a tunnel than making beds available, but making people available. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, as long as the Mi nister is aware of the problem and they will address this specific issue, I am satisfied. I do understand the problems. Most of them are not going to disappear overnight.

I think some of them have to have immediate attention, because it will just take one person. That actually happened a few years ago out of one hospital, and that is why that hospital refused to keep a patient who was suicidal in the observation unit. That would be disastrous. I am just questioning the Min ister. Mr. Chairperson, my next question is about the Mental Health subcomm ittee of the Health Network. The question is: when will the Mental Health subcomm ittee to the Health Advisory Committee be established, and who will be the members chosen on that comm ittee?

I apologize if that information has already been given. Maybe I did not read that. Mr. Orchard: It is in the process of being established, and to date I have not been advised of the make-up and who will be on the subcomm ittee, but that will be publicly announced when established. We intend to have some quite broad representation again, not only of professionals but of the various agencies and service del ivery consumers.

We certainly want to try to balance urban and rural representation on the committee, because the issues are approached substantially different and resourced substantially different, rural versus urban, particularly the City of Winnipeg urban. We also want to attempt to have some representation from the ethnic and multicultural groups on the subcommittee. That is in the process of being formed, and I will report to my honourable friend directly when the subcomm ittee is established. Mr.

Cheema: We are definitely satisfied with that answer, because it is extremely important to have the consumer groups, the family groups and representation from the broad

section of the community rather than one or two groups. Certa inly ther e has to be representation from the rural community as well as northern and Native communities. I think it is extremely important for the delivery of mental health care to have input from each and every group, because mental health crosses all the barriers. I think it is crucial for us to have representation from each and every group. Can the Min ister of Health tell us how the regional and provincial advisory committee on Mental Health will be laid, and how will they actively be co-ordinated? 2996 Mr.

Orchard: My honourable friend is referring to the recently set up regional councils. They are quite new, I think it is fair to say, quite excited about the prospects, because they have never before had the opportunity to participate in a cross

section of membership such as currently is on the regional councils. The membership has not been chosen by Government. Membership has been chosen basically by the mental health community itself, which is I think a significant initiative and a signi ficant step on the "empo werment" of the communi ty in terms of addressing their own needs. The reg ional, and my unders tanding is the provincial committee will report to the ADM's office and receive substantial co-ordination and guidance through the executive director of programs. llllr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass; item 4.(bX2) Other Expenditures $39,700 .00-pa ss. Item 4.(

c) Mental Health Programs: Provides for the planning and development of a compr ehensive, balanced and integ rated provincial mental health program with emphasis on Prevention, Clinical and Rehabilitation. Provides for standards and evaluation techniques within the mental health system. Item 4.(cX1) Salaries, $68,000.00-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister of Health give us the name of the external agencies funded under mental health programs? Mr. Orchard: Saved by the person with all the answers.

The Canadian Mental Health Association, Manitoba Division-do you want the 1989-90 requests? Canadian Mental Health Association, Manitoba Division last year received $55,000 and this year have requested $69,500.00. Ma nitoba Mental He alth Research Foundation received I think $15,000 last year-no, the money did not flow last year, did it-oh, it did, okay and will receive 15,000 again this year. The Society of Self-help Incorporated will receive $25,000 this year.

Again, I just want to tell my honourable friend that this is a maximum budgetary allowance, and they have to indicate to qualify for the maximum amount that they have spent the monies in accordance with their projections and their plans during the past year.

Sara Riel Incorporated $481 ,000, a fairly significant increase in the request here, because last year's was jus t un der $390,000; Ma nitoba Friends of Schizophrenics Incorporated $161, 600 this year, up from 154,600 last year; Eden Residential Care Services Incorporated 147, 100 request this year, $14 0,800 last year; the Canadian Mental Health Association Westman Region 440 House will receive $132,300, up from $126,600 last year; and the CMHA Winnipeg Region will receive $21 5,600, up from $193,900 last year.

Community Housing Alternatives will receive $77,000, and I do not have a final actual figure, but that was the adjusted vote that they had last year. Residence Langevin Incorporated will receive $23,700, a thousand dollars more than last year; and the YMHA Jewish Communi ty Centre of Winnipeg will receive $36,600

Monday, November 20, 1989 compared to $35,000 last year. The North YM- YWCA will receive $84,200 in terms of their request this year,

whereas last year they received $80,600.00. Community Therapy Services $116 ,000 of their request this year compared to $111, 000 for last year, and the Salvation Army, The Haven, $108,800 compa red to $104, 100.00. In terms of the Manitoba Mental Health Research Foundation, I was correct. Last year there was an appropriation which did not flow of $15, 000 and the same amount of money is being made available this year. *

(1500) Then there are some additional monies that have been approved since the preparation of this grant list and that is an additional $60,000 to the Canadian Mental Health Association, Manitoba Division, in terms of their activities in developing the alternatives program. So that is an additional $60,000 to the CMHA, Manitoba Division. The CMHA, Winnipeg Division, received $8,500 in terms of support for their development of the Network Committee on Mental Health and for the first time and that is a new support funding to the CMHA, Winnipeg Division.

Also new is a $12,500 education support funding grant for the first time to the Society for Depression and Manic Depression in Manitoba. Also, we have provided $6,000 to the Canadian Mental Health Association, Manitoba Division, in terms of to help them have more ability to encourage citizen, consumer participation on the empowerment of the individual support of $6,000 to help them encourage that initiative which we think is a valuable long-term initiative. Mr. Cheema: Can the Mini ster supply us with a photocopy, if it is possible now, for the various agencies so that we may have some questions on it? Mr.

Orchard: Yes. I think that was page XYZ of the large sheet of external agencies. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, I wanted to ask a question of the Minister. There is one group called the Winnipeg Cha pter of Compa ssiona te Friends Incorporated. This special group deals with parents and families of those who have lost children in recent times.

This is a self-help organization which has been in Winnipeg for the last 12 years and has seen a tremendous growth and had a number of volunteers and people who are putting in their time, but this particular organization had difficulty having access to any of the external agencies fund. I have given in information, and I will share with the Minister that they have gone to the City of Winnipeg, they have gone through Community Services and also from the Minister of Family Services but, unfortunately, they are not getting anywhere.

I think if you look at their whole structure and how they provide services to a number of individuals in a time of grief and how they share with each other, and not only are they giving the families support but also saving tax dollars because if they do not provide them services people will end up in the hospital and in the doctors' offices which will have a tremendous amount of cost to taxpayers. I would give the Minister of Health the information provided to me by the chairperson of the organization and I will ask him to review it and make a decision. I think it will be worthwhile to help these individuals.

It is not advocating for a special group. We are asking to help these individuals who have gone through grief and unfortunate circums tances with no fault of their own, but they need some help and I think they are doing tremendous work. Mr. Orchard: I acce pt my honourable friend's comments because I am acquainted with- now I do not know whether it is members of the specific group that my honourable friend has just indicated, but certainly parents who are grieving from loss, particularly of children. Certainly by their very existence they offer incredible support to bereaved parents particularly. Mr .

Chairman, I have nothing but praise and accolades for people who lead organizations like this. They provide to the communi ty a needed service, they are very, very supportive and they know how to provide that kind of support because with few exceptions, each person involved has gone through the bereavement of a family member , a child.

They can lead the newly bereaved parents almost step by step through the various react ions and emotional react ions to the unfortunate circumstances that the family faces; and from that standpoint, probably are as helpful as any group can be to parents outside of the formal health care system and formal and professional help. In a lot of ways the support they can offer is so touchingly unique because of the experience they have faced themselves that in some ways they provide support that cannot be provided by Government, hence I think it is fair to say, the existence of the group. Mr.

Chairman, we have, as my honourable friend might well appreciate, a number of requests from self help groups who wish to access themselves of financial support from Government, primarily just to undertake a central office function. Those requests are given quite serious consideration and of course have led us to some positive decisions in that regard with some of the operational programs that I just mentioned to my honourable friend, $60,000 to the Canadian Mental Health Association, the Friends of Depression and Manic Depression, et cetera.

We have not made any decision or no decision has been recommended to me on this organiza tion's request. I cannot indicate to my honourable friend even the status of whether there is a formal request before us at this stage of the game. I will just simply say to my honourable friend, I guess past demonstration is an indication of the future. We have seriously considered some modest funding support to these types of groups and will consider seriously future requests. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the Minister for the answer.

This issue was brought to my attention about four to five weeks ago and they have given me their whole file which indicates they have approached the City of Winnipeg, they have talked to some of their local M.P.s and they have talked to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson). 2997

Monday, November 20, 1989 Their request is very reasonable and I will provide a copy to the Minister. If you go through the whole file, it is self-explanatory and the amount of work they are doing and the amount of money they are asking for in no way even matches that. I think we will save more tax dollars by providing this association funds. I have no doubt in my mind that will be a very valuable service.

Certainly we could have raised this issue in a different way but I thought probably the best way was to go through Estimates and convince the Minister of Health and certainly request him to at least commun icate with these people. I do not think they have received any communication through the Min ister of Health yet, but certainly I think they will be very pleased to have any positive response or any consideration for the future. I will certainly convey to them that we have discussed this issue and I will send them the copies of the Hansards so that they know exactly what happened. *

(1510) Mr. Orchard: Mr . Chairman, tha t is an entir ely reasonable approach that my honourable friend has taken and befitting of his role as critic. As I say, we have discussed within the ministry and with the Mental Health Division support to a number of groups, self-help groups, and as we can we have provided some modest assistance from Government. That is certainly an action in the past as an indication to the future. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minster of Health tell us how many new program initiatives have been put in place for the last 18 months under the Mental Health Promotion Branch? Mr.

Orchard: Are we finished with the Mental Health programs then? Mr. Chairman: Item 4.(c)

(1) Salaries- pass; (c)

(2) Other Expenditures $1 29,500-pa ss; (c)

(3) External Agencies $1, 693,400- pass. Item 4.(

d) Mental Health Promotion: Provides for public education and preventive programs in mental health in co-operation with external agencies and community groups to promote a healthy emotional/ psycho-social lifestyle; 4.(d)

(1) Salaries $207, 100-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister provide me the answer I asked in the previous section, now? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, some of the initiatives in the new direction were in part answered yesterday, or not yesterday but, pardon me, Thursda y, last day we sat.

One of the initiatives that I find to be a most exciting initiative, and I think over the long run may well tell us how we can very effect ively util ize not unli mi ted resources one can expect of personnel and service delivery people within the regions as well as within the Mental Health Division, and I alluded to it briefly, I believe it was on Thursday of last week, about the unfortunate murder-suicide, the father and his family. 2998 The Mental Health Division undertook an initiative that I thought was very, very progressive in terms of its approach to community assistance.

As I understand the background, they sought advice from Edmonton for instance, from their confreres in Edmonton, as to how the community there had reacted to the devastating tornado. They found that there was a lot of trauma that needed counselling, intervention, advice, et cetera.

On the basis of that experience the division took a pro-active program to the community, to the schools, to help children of the same age group as the children whose lives were lost, and parents, teachers, counsellors in the school system, so that the community could talk about the tragedy and come to grips with why it happened, and to have maybe a better understanding, No. 1, but certainly no pent-up feelings and frustrations that could lead to anxieties, stress and problems down the road. That was, I think, a most pro-active and progressive intervention on the preventative side.

In other words, on the Mental Health Promotion side, that similar activity has lead up to some interesting initiatives just recently and I will deal first of all in two areas primarily. One of them is the forest fire initiative, or post-forest fire initiative, but one is very much ongoing right now in terms of assistance to the residents of Lynn Lake. Lynn Lake is facing a community crisis in terms of the potential closure-well, and I believe in fact, closure of the mine and that being the main economic engine in the community has a devastating effect on the community.

As a result, we have people from both Selkirk and in Brandon in Lynn Lake. They have been in there since November 3 of this year and have provide d 24-hour service. Ther e are five people involved, three adult, and two child and adolescent mental health cli nicians. Their services are being provided to Lynn Lake as part of Govern ment's response to help the communi ty adjust to a very stressful and anxious period of time, probably one of the more anxious periods of time that a number of the residents of that community will go through.

Now I think that is again a most pro-active and progressive approach to prevention, to the promotion of wellness in mental health. Again, and this is where I got into the discussion with my honourable friend the other day when we talked about the psychiatrists in Selkirk, all we asked of the psychiatrists was to assist us for three months in Brandon as civil servants, as employed staff, and they chose to put conditions to Government that we could not live with to accede to that request.

Now, had we followed my honourable friend's advice we would have caved in and it would have set an incredibly bad precedent because the individuals who are participating at Lynn Lake right now are doing so as emplo yees of Government. It is part of their obligations that their jobs entail and they are doing it as professionals, as professionals in the Civil Service. They are not asking for an arm and a leg to do it, nor do they believe they should. That is why I said to my honourable friend last week, if he knew the circumstances he would not be an advocate, as he and his Party have been in terms of

Monday, November 20, 1989 the Selkirk situation because today we have, as I say, five workers at any particular time from the department in Lynn Lake. They are away from their family, they are away from their homes, they are away from their children, they are away from their routine jobs and there is no question their regular job commitments and assignments are being left unattended in part while they are there, but Government considered that was a priority to provide that assistance and the staff has done that willingly and very effectively. I simply say that is a new direction we are taking that we think is most effective. *

(1520) In addition, we have a number of other areas but possibly my honourable friend might want to pose some more questions because I am not sure I am touching the kind of new initiatives that he wants to discuss. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, I think we did discuss some of the initiatives that will be involving the elder ly, Natives and immigrant refugees. That was discussed on Thursday and I thought that was the place we would ask those questions. Can the Minister of Health tell us, and particularly, what this Government is doing to remove the stigma attached with mental health illness?

As we have seen recently, there was a cartoon in the Free Press and there was a much publicized case out of Newfoundland when the girl landed over there and there was a tremendous amount of cry from the mental health groups and that is right. There should not be any jokes or any kind of stigma attached to mental illness. That can only be done if the public is being educated about such illness. I am sure 25 to 30 percent of Manitobans do go through some kind of anxiety or stress at one time or other in their life.

This is not uncommon and many people are afraid to admit they have a mental illness or they have difficulty in coping. What is this Government doing to remove that kind of stigma and to promote that you do not have to worry, you can discuss your problem and come forward? Mr. Orchard : I would venture to say that has been the end goal of almo st every initia tive that we have undertaken in the last 18 months. The Canadian Mental Health Association, Manitoba Division, although I am unaware, I would assume that this is part of the national campaign that the Canadian Mental Health Association has, is Stop Stigma.

The president, Bill Martin, provided me with probably one of the first posters of Stop Stigma, it is just coincidental we happened to be either meeting or I was down at their facility. That poster hung for many, many months, and I believe it is still in my office. It is highly visible to anyone who walks in the door. I mean, it is there. In terms of the Stop the Stigma campaign, let us deal with some of the opportunities we have tried to create for greater understanding in the commun ity. I think we have taken and essentially opened up the planning process of mental health significantly.

As we discussed earlier tod ay, a subcommittee of the Health Advisory Network involving individuals who are professionals, consumers, workers, volunteers right throughout the system will be part of that subcommittee. That builds upon a very direct initiative that we started in Dauphin as our first-I flew to Dauphin to make the announcement, I thought it was such a significant announcement. To me in many ways it was symbolic, because it built upon a direction that I suggested in these very committees when I was Opposition Critic, of how we bring mental health services more to the communi ty.

I use specifically the example of Dauphin as an area that we could undertake community based projects, the multid isciplinary team approach and enhancement of that level of service. It was only fitting that when we announced the enhancement project that was part of the six projects under the reorganization, the monies freed up through reorganization, we also announced and had lunch with the first regional mental health council in the history of the province.

A council as I say to my honourable friend was not hand picked by the Minister, it was chosen in the Parklands region through substantive discussion and has individuals as members of that committee that are both consumers and professional service del iverers. We talked about this last week on Thursday. There is always risk to empowerment of the individuals.

I am wiiling to take that risk, because as I have said before, I sincerely believe that individuals who I have had discussions with over a four- to five-year period of time are not understating the situation where they sincerely believe ther e is a better way for Government to approach. They are not saying spend more resource, pour more money into the system. They are saying use your money more appropriately. I sincerely believe that they can guide us as we reform the mental health system in Manitoba.

The regional Mental Health councils, I think, offer a vehicle of pretty reasonable input to that whole reform process, because all of them understand there is not a spending power involved and they are not there to be advocates of more spending in their region, but rather more intelligent resource allocation throughout the system.

Almost every initiative we have taken in Mental Health is to bring mental health up. into the forefront as a health issue of one we are serious about attempting to bring a better level of service, a greater involvement of communi ty and professional and consumer alike in terms of the decision making.

All of it is focused around that it is not to be hidden, that one may have either a chronic or in deed a temporary relapsing mental illness problem that needs assistance, maybe from the community in some instances, and maybe inclusive of assistance from some formal support or admin istered program of Government, that mental illness is yet another challenge to the health care system. We are prepared to address that challenge and to make people comfortable with talking about mental illness as an issue. We are not, by any means, leaders 2999

Monday, November 20, 1989 in that as Government, because I think the Canadian Mental Health Association, this has been their primary role and focus for all the years I have had anything to do with them. We are really building upon their years of work and initiative. To indicate to my honourable friend yet another initiative in terms of removing the stigma-I think my honourable friend would have received, and if he has not he will very shortly, an invitation, which I have sent to all Members of the Legislature inviting them to a play that I am hosting in the Legislature here on December 15 , I believe.

Well, it is after the Session is up. The play is called "T here is No Shame." It is sponsored primarily by the Manitoba Division, Canadian Mental Health Association. There are a number of div erse actors and professionals involved in the production of that. Its sole focus is to remove the stigma. I hope my honourable friend can attend and as many of his caucus Members as well, because I think it would be most enlightening for all of us to enjoy the production first off, but more importantly to un derstand the meaning behind the production and to receive a greater level of awareness and personal knowledge.

I would encourage honourable friends' participation. Mr s. Gwen Char les (S elkirk): Mr . Chairp ers on, because of the importance of this area I would like to add some comments on the record. The Minister last week was trying to explain how important the $12, 000 was that his department had handed over to the society depression and manic depressives. I appreciate the Minister's difficulty in trying to define how much that little bit was and certainly support his dedication to making Mental Health an issue in this Government.

I would like to-as a past depressive in my teenage years was severely depressed and now am speaking at many of the meetings on depression and supporting various self-help groups on depression-I would like to encourage the Mi nister and his department to do all they can to focus in on mental health awareness. I guess the comment that was just made, that in essence handing over a lot of the responsibilities to Canadian Mental Health Association, I would like the Min ister to elaborate upon that, because I feel it will always take the leaders in the community to bring awareness to any program.

Perhaps self-help groups are not the best ones to always come out in an awareness campaign, and the general public tends to write them off as a self-interest group, but when someone from outside of the interest area says this is important and points out how much money can be saved, in the very tangible terms of what can be saved financially-and that is not speaking even of how many lives are saved or how much a person's competence can be saved and keeping people in the work force-could the Minister elaborate on where Government can perhaps take more, and will take more, of a role in making awareness, and not, as I am sure he was saying, leaving it completely up to CMHA but perhaps where their partnership will come into play. * (15 30) Mr.

Orchard: Well, I guess it is by demonstration as much as anything, because I have on several occasions, in terms of media interviews for instance if you will, stolen the theme of "stop the stigma," because I think it-and they are not my words, it is not my original coining of a saying-b ut it add resses, in much more under standable and lucid terms, what we are trying to do as Government. I want to tell my honourable friend I appreciate the support that she has indicated, because Mental Health is one of the most difficult of the Health issues to come around.

It used to be that you simply did not talk about it if someone in the family maybe had some difficulties, and you sort of hoped it would go away. I do not know what the circums tances were. We used certainly descriptive language that simply would not be used today, even 15 or 20 years ago. We openly discuss and talk about the issue.

I think that is all very, very healthy and very, very helpful in terms of assistance, because one of the greatest, I think-and I speak from naivety here more than anything-one of the greatest assets toward support of people with mental illn ess is jus t simply understanding, not ostracization, or whatever that word is, but simply und ers tanding and even a friendly approach to the individual in a formal or informal circumstance. That probably was not possible even a decade ago, or was not considered to be a normal approach. That is not the case today.

If we can do anything as Government-and I guess this is why I have made the commitment not only in Opposition but also in Government to try and provide some small amount of assistance and leadership in terms of echoing the message that the Canadian Mental Health Association has brought forward, in terms of their approach to commu nity involvement and community understanding of the issues of mental health, because they are very complex issues.

I think Government has been a partner-well, formally or informally, it does not have to be a written agreement by any means-with the Canadian Mental He alth Association in attempting to further the removal of barriers and stigma and to increase the understanding. Now, I have to tell you-and I am speaking personally here-that in the last four to five years I have found members of the Canadian Mental Health Association, Manitoba Division, to be most helpful.

They are willing to take time out almost any time to discuss the issues, to discuss approach, and it is not always-you know there are times when we each play devil's advocate with each other to test out ideas and to test out approach in what will work and will not work. I think it is fair to say that in the past year, year and a half, that we have had a very, very good working rela tionsh ip with the Canadian Me ntal Health Association, Manitoba division, at the departmental level.

I think it is fair to say, and maybe I am being overly optimistic, but I think there has been more open and more direct and more valued communication and consultation between my department and the Canadian 3000

Monday, November 20, 1989 Mental Health Association in the last year to year and a half than ever before. I think that is healthy. It helps us each to achieve our respective goals which are in many, many, many cases exactly the same. Although we do not have a campaign that the Canadian Mental Health Association has, we certainly do have the support that we provide for them in terms of their initiatives and their di rection in terms of removing the stigma from the issue of mental health. Mrs.

Charles: Could the Min ister indicate whether his department is working with other departments, in particular the Department of Education, to make Mental Health awareness a discussion topic in the schools so that children and teenagers and even adult school attendees will have the opportunity to realize that they have as much right to mental health as they do to physical health? Mr. Orchard: I have to apologize to my honourable friend, I was back and forth with the executive director. I am sorry, I missed the question. Mrs.

Charles: Basically it was, is this department, in consultation with any other departments, especially the Department of Education, in making the topic of Mental Health awareness part of the program for the students themselves, not just for the caregivers, as I was saying, making it very obvious to everyone that mental health is as much a right as physical well-being? Mr. Orchard: Yes, we have an interdepartmental comm ittee for instance with both Education and Family Services to help develop several aspects of program.

One, for instance, is a treatment education program for six- to 10-year-old children with a tendency to occasional violent behaviour, to try to understand that phenomenon and try to provide educators and guidance counsellors with some better methods of assisting those children and understanding the uniqueness of their problems. We have specific consultation with Seven Oaks School Division and Child and Family Services Northwest in the development of a suicide protocol. That is part of the suicide prevention initiatives that we started about six or eight months ago.

If I can follow up on that, that is with Seven Oaks in particular, but we have consultation with Winnipeg School Divisions on what might be an appropriate model or what might be an appropriate make-up of a crisis response program for adolescent suicide as well as other situations of trauma. We have ongoing consultation with Winnipeg School Division No. 1 specifically for the development of crisis teams for all the schools in Winnipeg 1 and the training of the team members. Let me follow up with a little more information in terms of the Suicide Prevention Intervention Network, that is SPIN, acronym SPIN.

Again, it is a volunteer organization made up of representatives from our division, from Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and U of M, Grace, Department of Education, MATC, and Health Sciences Centre. Basically SPIN is providing increased professional and public knowledge of the circu mstances around youth suicide and the issues involved in youth suicides.

They have undertaken a number of presentations to both school staff and students, the school staff being not only the teaching staff but of course, as one would expect, counsellors and other guida nce individuals, and have conducted two-day workshops on youth suicide prevent ion, intervention and postvention.

Then of course as I mentioned just Thursday, Friday, Saturday of this past week, the two-and-a-half-day workshop on Native youth suicide prevention, because as we discussed Thursday of last week, Native adolescent suicide rates are significantly a multiple higher than what they are for any other group of Manitobans and we put some specific focus there. That is our co-ordination with SPIN, but the Youth Suicide Information Centre was one of the six pilot projects tha t we annou nced last fall with the reorganization and reform of the Mental Health Division. It is now up and running.

Again, we are providing public and professional education to the schools, to students, the general public, on how to recognize and deal with youth suicide. We have undertaken several initiatives all aimed hopefully at addressing in a pro-active way the issue of youth suicide. We are doing it in partnership, if you will, with a number of organizations and with particular emphasis on direct and close work with the Department of Education and a number of the school divisions and the professionals involved in the education system. *

(1540) Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I did want to make a few comments in this very important area. I echo the comments in terms of awareness because I think the key to success of any commun ity-based effort in the mental health field is going to be not just putting programs into place, not even just having the advisory committees in place, but is community support. I do believe that there has been an improvement in recent years in this particular field, and it is because of the activities of the CMHA and other organizations in promoting awareness.

I would want to stress that I do see a bit of a dilemma in this particular area in that in other areas of health we have moved to a significant increase in health promotion. I realize there are other functions of this particular department that will deal with that and the outside funded organizations are very involved with that. I do believe that promotion in this area is key. It is key in an institutional sense. There is a tie-in in terms of the level of institutionalization in my opinion with the fact that until recently the stigma has been there.

There have been very few promotional programs in place, very few communi ty-based alternatives. As much as there has been a shift to the commun ity-based system in recent years, I do believe that institutional dynamic is still very much there. I do believe it will remain that way until there is a greater level of community support. I believe it is building. 3001

Monday, November 20, 1989 I note in conversations that people have been involved in the regional area. They do notice a significant difference. I do not think we can underestima te the existing stigma that is out there in terms of society as a whole in terms of mental illness. It is imbedded right into our language. You just have to listen to kids in school. Some of the worst insults that can be thrown at individuals are of this particular nature. It is something that is ingrained in our upbringing. I noted for example in the last committee hearings the Member for The Pas (Mr.

Harapiak) asked questions in terms of youth and Native youth and programs in that particular area. That is where I have seen perhaps some of the greatest frustration as a Member of the Legislature, as a public official talking to people in commu nities that have been devastated by youth suicide. The sad

part is as much as we often like to think that if it could only be identified before and treatment could be put into place, that is not effective in that situation because many of the young people who commi tted suicide, many of the Native people in particular, were in fact opposite to the kind of character profile people would expect. It is always the quiet ones, that is the comment that I have heard time and time again from people in the Native communities that I visited, the elders who I have talked to and that is what is so devastating. It is always the quiet ones.

In fact, it is often not the kids who are in trouble the most because in an ironic way the kids who are in trouble for other reasons do have at least some access to some supports that do exist within the system. I think one of the biggest problems in particular in terms of Native youth is the stigma, the internalized stigma that exists. The people who do have problems in the mental illness area first of all do not recognize it and even if they do recognize it they are essentially brought up as part of their society to deny that there is a problem.

To admit that there is a mental illness problem is just absolutely beyond many of the people in the commu nities in general, in soc iety. It is mo re concentrated particu larly in some of the outlying communities, and that has to be devastating.

I believe that once again we end up back into the situation where even if we have a more community based system in terms of treatment, identification of problems, et cetera, we still are not going to be able to deal with the situation facing many youngsters in the community generally, and particularly in the Native comm unitie s because they do not have read ily identifiable symptoms. I have talked to teachers who have taught students who have committed suicide and that is the one thing they have said, there was virtually no indication prior to what happened that there was even a problem.

Often the case is that the problem itself would be-the alleged reason behind the suicide would be almost minor to an outside individual. It is not an event triggered situation which to my mind indicates there was a deeper seeded problem, a much deeper-seeded problem. I do believe that is where, when we are talking about Health Care Promotion, that we do need to pay a significant amount of attention to as well, and that is in the mental health care field. I am not trying to take away in any way, shape, or form from the work that is done by outside organizations or the work that is done with this particular

section of the department. I do believe if we are going to get to the root of some very specific problems, the more general problem being the stigma, the Minister I think quite eloquently outlined in his comments, I think it is going to require a significant increase in terms of promotion starting right in the schools. I do not believe that there is a promotion of mental health issues and concerns in the schools to the extent that there should be. I believe one only has to talk, in fact, I know one only has to talk to kids of whatever age to see that is exactly what is happening in the school system.

I do not really notice much difference amongst the kids anyway in terms of their perception of what a mental illness is than when I was in school. I am sure it is the case for other Mem bers of this committee in terms of when they were in school. I do believe we should be-perhaps not directly through this department but through the Department of Education and some of its functions and through the individual school boards, in the schools promoting an awareness of mental health care issues.

I would like to ask the Minister to the extent to which there is any liaison with other dep artments in particular the Department of Education in terms of mental health care issues. I do know we are getting into the Department of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services in a few minutes, or a few hours I guess, whenever we do get to the next section.

I am particularly interested in the tie-in with the schools in terms of the promotional side and particularly given not just some of the issues I have touched on but also the very real and gr owing recognition of problems in terms of child abuse, which does have very significant mental health ramifications. I would like to ask the Minister what liaison there is with the Department of Education in terms of mental health promotion in the schools and in particular in terms of child abuse. *

(1550) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, our co-ordination with the Department of Education is, as I indicated in my last answer to I believe the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Cha rles), in terms of working with education and working with school divisions. Primarily the emphasis often there is on the suicide issue as a specific, narrow and more focused issue but there is a significant portion of activity. Let me offer my honourable friend a couple of more things because he mentioned the Native mental health issues in suicide.

I only had one copy of the recently developed activity book and I would like to give copies, we have got enough copies for every MLA that is here today. This to me is an ideal use of resource in terms of dealing in a very, very direct and understandable way with a traumatic issue ltke the forest fires were to northern Manitoba. 3002

Monday, November 20, 1989 It starts out by talking about how fires are good and you have a youngster out in front of a little wee bonfire warming his hands, or her hands, I do not know which. Then you have a candle showing some light, et cetera, and then there are four more opportunities to show, by drawing your own circumstances, where fires are good. Then it talks about when fires are sometimes bad and they can harm people, homes and forests and asks if you can think of other ways in which fires are harmful.

You know a Native youngster might be pretty upset because his father's trapline has been essentially destroyed, or the moose habitat is gone and the game is gone so they have to go quite a bit further, or a particular fishing spot may not be good for a year or two. The opportunity is there to express those sorts of feelings. The pamphlet takes off through and then ends up with a large return fold-out

section where individuals can create their own headline for their own thoughts and ideas on what that forest fire situation meant to them. Those are going to be subject to a return, a contest, and a use in terms of a display at a later date when they are returned. The one thing I was particularly intrigued with was the effort of dealing directly with the evacuation efforts. They have an armed forces aircraft and a bus, and they have got great big window opportunities so children can draw either happy or sad faces depending on what their feelings were, in those windows.

This is an excellent way to put to paper what your thoughts are and allow professionals to identify what some of the difficulties may be so that they can be dealt with in a professional way. We are deemed, because of the work of Dr. Rodgers, to be one of the national leaders in terms of issues specific to Native mental health policy and programming. I think that is something that we all too often do not take, understand and give credit to indi viduals like Dr. Rodgers for their contribution nationally in that regard.

We have undertaken and had significant requests for specialized training packages from workers with a number of the band councils. The training package is designed really to introduce awareness, education, and support methodologies to many of these workers. Eighty-three of them in total have asked for and in part or whole received some specialized training on mental health as a specific issue affecting Natives, both northern and remote. We are undertaking a number of initiatives that I think are pro-active and very positive and I think will yield results over the longer haul. Mr.

Ashton: I am just wondering in terms of the child abuse area, what the activities are of the department. I realize it is an issue that cuts across various de partments, obviousl y the Attorney General 's Department in terms of the legal aspect, and obviously the Department of Education in terms of identification of suspected child abuse in the school system. I am wondering if the department has any activities whatsoever in terms of child abuse particularly on the promotional side. When I say promotional, I mean the education of children in terms of what child abuse is obviously, and the reporting of child abuse.

Does the department have any role in this particular area? Mr. Orchard: In terms of abuse as the specific issue, the role northern children's Mental Health workers are currently providing is assessment and treatment for both abuse victims, families and the offenders. They are providing consultation to other systems regarding mental health treatment and abuse, with school systems being an impo rtant compon ent. Our staff are participating in child abuse teams, that is rural and northern initiatives and efforts.

In terms of Winnipeg we have an acute treatment and consultation team to provide assessment and brief treatment for abuse victims, families, and for the offenders again. There is the same kind of consultation services to other systems. In the Mental Health Division we provide mental health input to the provincial Advisory Committee on Abuse. We serve as the resource centre in many ways to answer requests for information regarding abuse and mental health treatment.

At the regional co-ordinators' meeting this year, one of the issues that emerged was the desire by the regional co-ordinators to undertake a more leadership role, if you will, in the child abuse issue from the Mental Health Division. That was an issue brought forward by all co ordinators in all regions and one being explored I think now. Obviously we cannot do it in isolation, we would provide that greater support and co-operation with the school system and family services. Mr.

Ashton: I would encourage that greater role because I do believe we have to move beyond ide ntification and treatment into really promot ing awareness in this particular area. Just one final question and that is, the Minister outlined the provincial Advisory Committee on Abuse, I was wondering if he could perhaps, not necessarily now, but at some point in time provide a list of the individuals on that committee. Mr. Orchard: Yes, can do. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, according to the 1987 Chief Medical Examiner's report, we have the third highest suicide rate in Canada. Can the Minister of Health tell us that in order to tackle the problem what evaluation study he has put in place or he will put in place to see which age group is most vulnerable for a suicide rate in Manitoba and each region? How are they going to start a special program to deal with that problem? *

(1600) Mr. Orchard: That is a statistic we are well aware of. It is unfortunate that we achieved that third highest 3003

Monday, November 20, 1989 rating because as we discussed either last week, Thursday or Tuesday, Native suicides are significantly higher and drive our provincial average up to the third highest in Canada. To attempt to come to grips with that issue, we have undertaken several initiatives. The first one of course was the Youth Suicide Information Centre as part of the six new communi ty-based projects that were a part of the $900-plus-$1, 000 freed up in the reorganization of the mental health system.

We are very pro-active in our support of SPIN as we have discussed earlier on and working with school divisions in terms of attempting to bring a greater level of awareness, identification and prevention activity to the school system as wel l. For many years the de partment has been involved with counselling bereaved family members in terms of a successful suicide so the department is not only attempting to provide assistance after the fact.

Our efforts of recent, in the last 12 months in particular, have been very much focused on the prevention and education side so that if we could free up all of our staff from the post-suicide counselling role because there were no more suicides that would be ideal and have the efforts focused. We are now focusing on education and prevention which of course is the goal, and very difficult to achieve I think my honourable friend would have to agree, but nevertheless a goal that I do not think anyone would disagree with in this House. Mr.

Cheema: According to the statistics here, the second highest rate for suicide is between the ages of 30 and 39. Can the Minister of Health tell us what special measures they have taken to reach that age group which is quite uncommon to have a suicide rate that high in that age group? Mr. Orchard: If my honourable friend-a nd he has the information in front of him-will see that youth suicides are by far our greatest actual numbers of completions. A higher degree of attempt or discussion of suicide is probably amongst the youth.

Although the group that you have identified of 30 to 39 is an important group they are a more difficult group to reach because the y are often indepe nd ently functioning individuals who have some maturity and some skill in hiding the signs. Adolescents and youth are much more open and offer the signals much more readily.

Our focus in terms of suicide prevention is in creating an awareness of recognizing those signals when youth and adolescents are commun icating them because I think-I do not know what the percent is but it is an extremely high percentage who communicate that, and in doing so are asking for help or asking for someone to reach out and touch them and give them the kind of support they want. You are talking a very difficult phenomenon, 30 to 39, and I think again if there was a breakdown in terms of an identification of a specific group.

Unfortunately I think our Native com mu nit ies are qu ite a high percentage of that 30 to 39. 3004 Mr. Cheema: The next group in the statistics is from age 50 to age 89 and different categories of 10 years. Total cases are: 14 from 50 to 59; nine from 60 to 69; eight cases from 70 to 79. That is about 24 cases with a very significant age group in the seniors. My question is, what specific programs, as far as the prevention is concerned, are put in place to deal with the seniors population that seems to be the next age group? Mr.

Orchard: I have to indicate that more emphasis to date has been specifically on the youth. If you can provide that support to a youth, the chances are very remote that they would be a suicidal 30- to 39-year old or a suicidal senior. This is basing the program on those with the longest period of time in which they might consider such

an act. Let us not overlook the fact that in terms of service del ivery across the department in the regions and through our various institutions a significant amount of the multid isciplinary team approach and counselling to adults can provide education intervention and prevention programs. (Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) I simply say to my honourable friend, I am not a practitioner.

I am not a mental health expert or anything like that, but the signs are so much more difficult to identify amongst adult people because they are very much more difficult to detect Hence, if they are more difficult to detect, they are certainly more difficult to provide preventive intervention. Mr. Cheema: I think the Minister has not addressed the issue of the seniors here. From ages 50 to 89 there are about 24 deaths by suicide by a variety of reasons and this book does not really tell us whether those were because of overdose, hanging, strangulation, or use of other measures.

I think this is a very significant area and it needs attention in terms of how the programs will be put in place to deal with the seniors population. Mr. Orchard: I think my honourable friend was just making a comment. Mr. Cheema: While we have this report on, last Friday I had a specific question for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) during the Question Period that was in regard to the Brandon Mental Health Centre.

After the inquest there were a few recommendations and one of the recommendations was that both front entrances of the centre should have panic bars and automatic buzzers which will activate the door when it is opened. One door had this kind of measure, but the other door did not have it and that was supposed to be put in place. Can the Minister of Health tell us whether those and there are two other recommendations: one also deals with them putting more observation during the off hours, and also providing an observation unit, observation place in the corridor while the patients are going out.

Can the Minister confirm that those measures have been put in place or not? Mr. Orchard: If the specific question is in terms of the security system on the front door, no, it has not been. Mr. Cheema: I think it should be done as one of the recommendations. It does not really cost that much to

Monday, November 20, 1989 put such a measure in place so a possible loss of life can be prevented. Can the Min ister now direct his department to do that? Mr. Orchard: I will even go you one better. We are currently undertaking a complete-a functional study they call it, of the Brandon Mental Health Centre. My honourable friend has been there, he will know that there has not been, for approximately 20 years, any new construction out there with the exception of this past summ er. I had the pleasure two weeks ago Friday to cut the ribbon on the new work activity area attached to the Brandon Mental Health Centre.

That is the first new construction that has been unde rtaken in the centre for a number of years and is really an appropriate one in that it brings people in from the community who are placed in the community and gives them day work activity and training to lead, with some success already, to community employment. That is not the only issue, there is the security issue at Brandon Mental Health Centre but that is only one of several issues. A number of the buildings need major repair, from repair of the roofs to fire code upgrading to air ventilation upgrading.

As my honourable friend knows, those old buildings, some of them are dated circa 1900, are not centrally air-conditioned and in the summertime they are extremely hot.

In terms of reaction to that report though, rather than do the security aspect in terms of physical locks and other electronic wizardry, we have attempted to provide a greater supervisory ability there so the patients have more opportunity to be outside of the environment particularly in the summertime, outside the environment of the buildings with a greater degree of supervision so that hopefully we do not have circums tances such as what happened approximately three years ago. * (161 0) Without denigrating the issue at all to my honourable friend, it is a delicate balance in terms of allowing some patient freedom and movement.

Again, you are not dealing with completely predictable reactions in those circu mstances some where between absolute incarceration and complete freedom in the commun ity. We try to walk that tightrope. In the majority it has been walked most successfully, but occasionally and unfortunately there is an incident that leads to renewed calls for security measures, et cetera. Although appropriate, they may not always have prevented the incident that stimulated the report. That is an unfortunate reality of the institutional environment and the balance that you try to provide hopefully with some success.

The functional study, to be kicked off, will certainly include the security aspect as one of the physical components of the facilities. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): The Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I certainly thank the Minister for that answer. Out of a similar report there was one case, this was suicidal and this person was at Headingley Correctional Institute. There are four recommendations put forward by the Ch ief Me di cal Exa miner and the second rec ommenda tion is the staff mem bers at the correctional institutions should be certified in CPR.

Can the Minister tell us today, or maybe he can tell us tomorrow, whether that has been put in place? I think it is extremely important to have people trained in a basic life-supporting system, life-supporting skills, so that if there are any unfortunate circumstances the inmates can be helped. Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Acting Chairman, we will get the specifics of the answer for my honourable friend. I know that there is a significant amount of staff at both centres, Brandon and Selkirk, who have that medical training and capability, but as to whether it extends to every member or not, I do not know.

Were you talking Heading ley there or not? An Honourable Member: Heading ley. Mr. Orchard: Oh, I am sorry. I cannot answer for Heading ley. Sorry. Mr. Cheema: Then I think probably we will ask the question of the Min ister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) then. I think that may be the right place then. Mr. Orchard: No. Family Services. Mr. Cheema: Family Services, okay. Can the Minister of Health tell us where does he feel the role of psychologists are in the prevention of mental illness under this branch? Mr. Orchard: I sense a trick question here from my honourable friend.

I want to tell my honourable friend that the services of psychologists in the mental health system are not only appreciated but highly valued and have been I think for some time. There are a numb er of psycholog ists on staff throughout the institutions as well as the department. They provide us with excellent service and are an important part and component of what I have described.

I would like to claim that it was a new idea of my own but it was not, but it is part of the multidisciplinary team approach to mental health issues wherein you encourage and utilize as appropriate the skills of various professionals trained in the issues of mental health. Psychologists certainly are utilized in that regard and valued in that regard by the ministry. Mr. Cheema: We all know that the psychologists are providing excellent service, but my question is very specific now.

What is being done to make sure that when we do not have the psychiatrists but a number of services can be provided by psychologists, in some cases maybe even better services can be provided by these individuals, what specific measures have been 3005

Monday, November 20, 1989 taken to make sure that their services are being used to the best possible? I know for sure that many people are not aware of their services, including the primary care physicians, even including some of the hospitals, some of the nursing staff, some of the social workers. What is this Government going to do, if they have not done so far, to make sure to commun icate with all these individuals, to make sure that their services are being used to the best possible? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I guess to put it blunt ly, all of the positions we have available for psychologists in Government are filled. They are filled because we value the kind of services they provide. The difference-and I should not have to tell my honourable friend this, he knows this-in terms of psychiatrists/psychologists is that psychiatrists have the abil ity I belie ve to do medical interv ention, be it administration and prescription of pharmaceuticals,

whereas psychologists do not have that ability through their academic education. Mr. Acting Chairman, we have had a number of di scussions with the Ma nitoba Psy cholog ical Association, and they have been along the lines of their ability to provide greater participation within the health care system. I think it is fair to say that the ultimate goal that they envision would be having psychologists able to bill fee for service in terms of the services they provide.

We have not been able to favourably consider that goal of the Psychological Association for some very obvious reasons, the most pressing one being financial resource. Should my honourable friend occupy the chair, he will soon find out how many people want billing privileges, and they are substantial and everyone can make a very excellent case. In terms of not making those services available, it is not a denigration of the professional contribution, it is unfortunately a reality of resource limitation.

Until we get the health care system reformed and people healthier and taking more responsibili ty for their personal well being, and not relying automatically on the formal acute-care treatment system which is extremely expe nsive and in many ways highl y concentrated at the physician level, we may on reform of that system find ourselves with resource available to support a number of groups who provide health promotion prevention to the system in a very, very effective and widespr ead means. I talked to my honourable friend today, that is not one of the current realities that I have to offer. Mr.

Cheema: This question I do not know whether it belongs to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) or the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). It is regarding the certification procedure for the Manitoba psychologists. They have expressed concern in the past that the psychologists were providing service in the schools that some of them they do not have to be registered. *

(1620) What is the Minister's view on that because the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) has reported in the media two or three months ago saying that he is going to meet with the association and discuss the certi fication proced ure, whether that should be regulated by one body or they want to keep the system as such? If the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) does not feel comfortable with that question, we can certainly ask the Minister of Education. Mr. Orchard: Yes. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is one of the easiest questions and some of the easiest answer.

That is very good but certainly I think they have a very reasonable approach, and they have approached the Minister of Education. Hopefully that issue should be resolved because to have uniform services, you should have one regulating body that should be supervising the professional expertise of any group. I do not think Manitoba psychologists should be treated anything differently.

Certainly when they are in favour of such a move, and it was supported by our Education Critic, the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, and certainly we believe it should be the way that they should come under one body and have uniform rules. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, when I answered "yes" to my honourable friend's trick question there, I never realized until this question how he was trying to rope me in and get me into a direct conflict with my honourable friend, the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach).- (interjection)- He said it is all right then? Mr.

Acting Chairman, the issue of the professional certification is a real one. I just want to remind my honourable friend that there are circumstances North where we are always talking about profess ional recruitment difficu lties that are quite adequately addressed by professionals who are doing an effective job of service delivery. That makes the issue a little more complex than a simple yes answer. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): We are dealing with Mental Health Promotion: 4.(d) ( 1) Sala ries $207, 100-pass. 4.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures $26,000-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Just one final question on the issue I forgot to ask. Are there any vacant positions in the department right now, in this branch? Mr. Orchard: We are advertising for the director. Mr. Cheema: In Manitoba Health? Mr. Orchard: Yes. Where? Mr. Cheema: Where we are now at 4.(

d) under Mental Health Promotion. Mr. Orchard: We are advertising for the director. Mr. Cheema: Is this the same position we discussed earlier that was vacant? 3006

Monday, November 20, 1989 The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Shall the item pass- pass for a total of $233, 100.00. We go on to Mental Health Rehabilitation. The Mental Health Rehabilitation provides for the development of all psychosocial rehabilitative program needs in relation to proctor, day programs, recreational, prevocational, vocational employment and lifeskills training. 4.(eX1) Salaries $192,400-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Is there any position vacant under the professional and admin istrative support staff? Mr. Orchard: Again, we are advertising for the director. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, the Minister is in a good mood. I do not want to annoy him but certainly since we started discussing the Mental Health reforms, we have pleased him. Repeatedly a number of positions have been vacant, and how can he justify implementing all the programs when he has so many positions vaca

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-74a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 74a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	772e909df44cd9ec48a4172dc184bd241359b4d5

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