Manitoba Hansard — 9 October 1969 (Sitting 65-, 29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-65-

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, October 9, 1969 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving:Petitions. REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES 1573 ! • MR . LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker; I beg to present the First Report of the Special Committee of the House on Professional Assodiations. MR . CLERK: Your Special Committee on Professional Assoc�ations beg leave to present the following as their First Report: Your Special Committee met for organization and appointed Mr.

Desjardins as Chairman, and the quorum of the Committee was set at seven members. The Chairman read the Resolution establishing the Committee and gave an outline of the work done by previous Committees. . The Secretary was instructed to forward to the members of the Committee certain docu ments received by former Committees on Professional Associations. The Chairman was reqU.ested to contact Mr. J.

O"Sullivan, Chairman of a Committee of the Manitoba Bar Association, which studied the legal aspects and status of professional associ ations, and ascertain whether the report of his committee would be available, and if so, the Secretary be instructed to forward copies of this report to all members of your Committee. It was agreed that your Committee would meet in the third week of November. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR . DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Churchill, that the report of the committee be received. MR .

SPEAKER presented tlie motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS I I MR . SPEAKER: At this point, I should like to direcfthe attention of the Honourable Members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us 27 Grade h students of The Moor head State College Campus High School, of Moorhead� Minnesota. They are under the direc tion of Mr. Gerald Jacobs and Mr. Valberg Smith.

On behalf of all �onourable members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you here today. i We also have with us 60 students of Grade 11 standing of the Bort Richmond School. These students are under the direction of Messrs. Huebert, Hamm md Button. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. And we have lOO students of Grade 11 standing of the St. Norbert Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Robert Hauge, Mr. Robert Martin and Sister Blandine. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you here today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . WARNER H.JORGENSON (Morris): I rise on a question of privilege affecting the privileges of all members of this House. Yesterday there was received in the mail a letter from Mr. Ed.

Nurssberger - I don't know if I pronounce the name correctly - addressed from the Royal George Hotel in Transcona, to the Members of the Manitoba Legislature, and this gentleman goes on to congratulate the Member for Elmwood on the introduction of the lottery bill, and he goes on to explain how he has canvassed the CNR shops and sought approval for this bill.

Now my question of privilege is that the envelope in whicb: this letter came to members of this House is one of the envelopes that is recognized as ;the official stationery of this House, the Legislative Assembly, and I would like to know how this gentleman came into possession of an envelope belonging to the members of this House to: address his mail to the members of the Chamber. ! ·A MEMBER: Was there a stamp on it? i MR . JORGENSON: No stamp. I . HON. ED. SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Well, Mr.

Spe1Jker, I'm not quite sure how to respond to the point of privilege, and perhaps I shouldn't eveb. attempt to respond, bUt I should like to say to the Honourable Member for Morris that it wo�ld seem a legitimate point

1574 October 9, 1969 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd.) ..... of privilege and the government should want to undertake some investigation to see bow this came about, and if we cannot determine that I would volun teer to pay out of my own pocket whatever the cost of the envelopes were, although that wouldn't really deal with the problem satisfactorily. I want to say that for my

part I do not know any Mr. Nurssberger so I am really at a loss to know where be got the envelopes. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I think I might clarify the situation. The gentleman will be here himself this afternoon. It is his letter and I requested that the let ter be distributed. I did not know that it would be distributed through the envelopes of the Legis ture so I might bear some of the responsibility but the gentleman did not acquire the envelopes and distribute them. I bad the letter distributed for him and be will be here and he'll answer your other questions. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I just rise on a point of privilege, if I may have the attention of the Members of the House for just a few moments. Mr. Speaker, Icelanders have finally come into their own, and in today's Tribune . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Did I understand the honourable member to say that that's a question of privilege. MR . EINARSON: I just rose on a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well the honourable member may proceed. MR. EINARSON: I say again, Mr.

Speaker, in today's Tribune Mayor Stepben Juba, on behalf of the Viking Club of Winnipeg, has proclaimed today Leif Ericson Day in Winnipeg. Kjell Talgoy, the Viking's President, has said that today, October 9th, will become a national holiday in a year or two if the idea can be sold to politicians. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am here to sell the idea to the politicians of this hallowed Chamber. There is little doubt that the legend Viking explorer discovered North America in about 1,000 A.

D. and Cbristopber Columbus, who for all these years has been credited with the discovery of this wonderful land, only came here after be visited with the Vikings in Iceland who told him, they bad discovered a land to the West. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, 1 was wondering if I could make two points in response to the point of privilege raised by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, those two points being simply as follows: would the honourable member not agree that no one can really have a full appreciation of the Icelandic peoples until be or she has tasted their peculiar dish known as Tortilla, which is a sour cream and yogurt and sugar combination; and the other point is that if Leif Ericson is sort of the Cbristopber Columbus of the Icelandic people, what happened to Eric the Red, or did his name fall into disrepute with the cold war? MRS.

INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, as a person whose ancestry was all of Norwegian extraction, I would like to pledge all the support I can give the Member for Rock Lake. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Government Services.

I understand that the security of the building was broken last night and I am wondering if the Minister can guarantee the House today that the security of papers etc. and many of the treasures that are stored in this building, is going to be reviewed or could be make a statement on it at this time? HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Government Services) (Selkirk): Well, Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice and check into the matters referred to by my hon ourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. During the hearings at Law Amendments dealing with the Fisheries Bill, we were certainly led to believe, or given evidence to the fact that the prices paid to fishermen on the lakes this year was couiderably better than in years past. It has come to my information directly from fishermen in the Lake Winnipegosis area that this does not seem to be the case; in fact there is quite a reduction in prices. If I may just quote for the Minister, pickerel prices, yellow pickerels last year that were paid 30 cents, this year 23 by the Board;

October 9, 1969 I I 1575 (MR. ENNS cont'd.) saugers 27, this year 20 by the Boa:J;"d. I would ask the Minister, I know it's -- the information just came to me yesterday -- could he undertake to contact the fishing co-operatives at Lake Winnipegosis and on Duck Bay to ver1fy this information, and to contact the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board as to whether or not this is accurate. It seems to be in direct contradiction to the evidence that we had received at Law Amendments. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural R�sources) (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, I will undertake -- I don't know whether it's necessary to contact the coopera tives as such, I think we can obtain the information directly from the Freshwater Fish Market ing Corporation, but I will undertake to obtain information on this point. I would remind the members of the House, however, that we did have a statement from an official of the Fisher men's Federation to the effect that they were satisfied with the prices being paid by the Board, generally speaking. This was the general observation made by Mr. Ateah, I believe. While I am on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table a Return requested by the Honourable Member fDom Morris, I believe, respecting the names of the companies involved in the process ing and marketing of fish in the Province of Manitoba and their locations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, just as a matter of clarifica tion, I think if the Minister will refer to his Votes and Proceedings, he will find that Mr.

Ateah - this is just a matter of clarification and correction of a statement - will the Minister then check into his Votes and Proceedings and find out if, in fact, Mr. Ateah did appear as the member of that Federation or did he appear on his own behalf? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I would believe that he appeared on behalf of the Federation, but the significant factor is he is an official of the Federation and he is known by all fishermen in Manitoba; he has dealt with members of my department, and he's known as the spokesman for the fishermen of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. , MR.

BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I would lik� to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and/or the First Minister: A few days ago, the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and I brought to t_he attention of the federal Minister of Forestries and Fisheries, a very serious potential economic pro�lem for the Municipality of Fort Garry and indeed the metropolitan area of Winnipeg and the Prpvince of Manitoba, with respect to the projected closure and move of the personnel from th�, Canadian Forestry Re- · search Laboratory there.

I know the Minister was in contact with the federal Minister to whom I have made mention, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to l:Bk � at this point if he can re port to the House on any results from that contact? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, as I reported last week the Minister in Ottawa was in London, England, and I believe he just returned a day or two ago. I did receive a reply acknowledging my telegram but I have received no further· information from the Minister in Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Since the House may possibly prorogue in the next week or two, I wonder if he could say, before the House prorogues, whether he is intending to commence with the construction of the Patterson Dam this fall ? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe I've replied to this question many times be fore and I'm afraid I can't answer in any greater detail than I have before. I have no further information to provide to the members. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights.

MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C. (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Honour able House Leader I wonder if I can ask a question of the First Minister. I wonder if he can inform the House when the Standing Committee on Economic Development will be called. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, soon. MR. SPIV AK: A supplementary question. Will it be called this session? Is it the inten- tion of the government to call it this session or not ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, when I say soon, I mean something like 24 or 48 hours. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. GORDON E.

JOHNSTON (Leader of the Liberal Party) (P9rtage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister. Co�ld he inform the House, I il J

1576 October 9, 1969 (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd.) ....• with respect to his trip to Japan next week, could be inform the House what senior staff personnel be will be taking with him from the Department of Industry and Commerce? MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Accompanying me will be the Assistant Deputy Minister of Industry and Commerce and the Director-General of Business Development of the department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR.

SPIVAK: A supplementary question -is it the intention of the Honourable First Minister and the Minister of Finance and others who will be accompanying him, of travelling to and visiting and dealing with people in Hong Kong? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it is not the intention of the Minister of Industry and Commerce, that is to say myself, to travel to Hong Kong, but simply to Japan in order to respond to the invitation from the Government of Japan that was extended to my predecessor that is to say, my good friend from River Heights -and subsequent to return to Canada without going to Hong Kong, In the case of the Minister of Finance, l'll let him answer for himself. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.C. (Minister of Finance) (St. John's): Mr. Speaker, I think I should respond.

I didn't bear the question too clearly but the question wasn't only am I going to Hong Kong but there was something attached to the question. All the member wanted to know was whether or not it is my intention to go to Hong Kong? MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, in order to clarify, may I just simply pose a question then directly to the Minister of Finance? Is it his intention to travel to Hong Kong on the trip that be is going to be taking with the First Minister and to deal with some of the banking offici als in Hong Kong? MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I must proceed from Japan to San Francisco to commence a series of appearances,-which I referred to before, before members of the invest ment community of the United States. The trip takes me, automatically apparently, through Hong Kong, or in any event that's part of the same package, but I have very limited time avail able because I have to be in San Francisco, and if it is possible from Tokyo -and from here efforts are being made -to line up anything that I can do in Hong Kong I certainly will, but I am not under the impression that this can be done.

I might also --probably it's only a reminder to the honourable member rather than information, that there is no indication as yet that there is more money available in Hong Kong for loan purposes. MR. SPIV AK: A supplementary question to the First Minister. I wonder if he can inform the House whether the contacts that were first established by the Deputy Minister of Industry and Commerce a year ago last June have been maintained by the government in connection with the possibility that loan capital for industry and for government be made available. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, it's my clear understanding that the contacts made by the Deputy Minister of Industry while he was inJapan lastyear have been maintainedby himand by my department, and that in fact, during the six days of the trade mission to Japan, that we will be visiting personally some of the people involved in these contacts made last year. MR, SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry, the First Minister misunderstood my question. My reference was to the contacts made in Hong Kong. MR.

SCHREYER: With respect to Hong Kong, my understanding is, as was given by the Minister of Finance, that the money in capital market in Hong Kong, while it does offer some prospect of Manitoba issues being taken up there, that at the moment it's not really that aus picious. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister of Finance, and I ask it because of the manner in which be has endeared himself to all members of this Chamber in the last few months- I would ask him if be can assure us that be won't leave his heart in San Francisco. MR.

CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, in view of the comments made by the honourable member, I should tell him that I am intending, at my expense, to take my heart tbere and bring it all the way back to Winnipeg. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I would be allowed to wonder out loud if the Honourable Member for Fort Garry left his heart in ott awa during the three years be was there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General. HON. AL. MACKLING (Attorney-General) (St. James): Mr. Speaker, a number of

October 9, 1969 1577 (MR. MACKLING cont'd.) . . . • . questions from across the floor have been directed to the Minister of Transport and he has asked me, in respect to police eMorcement on the Perimeter highway, where there have been serious accidents; and my department advises that they have communicated with all of the enforcement agencies, the Royal Ca�dian Mounted Police, the Fort Garry Police Departmen�, the St. Vital Police Department, the East St. Paul Police De partment and the West St.

Paul Police Department, and all have undertaken in part to increase· I patrols and increase surveillance of the most hazardous areas. I am also given to understand by the Minister of Transport that the Highway Traffic Board has at, his request convened a meeting and have approved a reduction in speed permitted within specified intervals on these intersecting highways, so that rapid progress has been mlide in connection with this matter� MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR .

JORGENSON: Since the Attorney-General answered this question on behalf of the Minister of Transport, are we to understand now that he has been instructed not to answer any questions unless he's spoken to his lawyer? ! MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Mihlster. I wonder if the First Minister would indicate to the House which province the consultant - I believe it's a Mr. MacLeod - is from, that is reviewing the productivity reports :for the government. · MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm surprised a little by the curiousity of my honourable friend. Should it matter very much what province the consultant cqmes from as long as he has had experience in the administration of some sister province or an9ther? To answer his ques tion specifically, Mr. MacLeod happens to come from the administration of the University of Saskatchewan - Dr. MacLeod comes from the lidministration of thej University of Saskatchewan and from the Government of Saskatchewan. ' MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . LEON ARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr.

Speaker� on the lighter side, I was going to direct this question to the House Lelider but since he isn't here I should perhaps direct it to the Attorney-General. Because of some of the explosions that 1took place in the House yesterday, could the Minister inform me if it had anything to do with the stealing of dynamite caps from Grandview from Manitoba Hydro yesterday? , MR . CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, may I try to answer the qu�stion because I doubt if members on this side of the House are competent to comment on the explosion that took place in this House nor on the caps he refers to, and while I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, as acting House Leader may I remind members of the House that there are a number of people waiting and hoping to make their appearances before Law Amendments Co�ttee and I am wondering at what stage the House would be prepared to ask you to leave the Chair. If it's acceptable now, then -- hearing no objection, Mr. Speaker -- I'm sorry. I heard an objection. HON. JOSEPH P.

BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation) (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, it's not an objection. I would never object to anything the Minister of Finance would say. I need him as a friend when it comes to the budget. I would like to make a statement in respect of the Beltway. During the past few days there has been much comment and discussion on it and references about the cost of acquisition of land by Metro and the1 government. This depart ment is now conducting an in-depth review of transactions that have taken place to date, and when it's completed the findings will be mlide public. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, may I now move that ..• I MR . EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, could I ask a question of the First Minister before we adjourn? Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister. Due to the very serious economic conditions in the rural �arts of Manitoba, would you, as First Minister of the Province, consider delaying your trip to Japan next week in order I that you may travel through rural Manitoba and talk to the many farnl.ers and businessmen? MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, that proposal might have some merit if it weren't for the fact that I do believe that I have travelled through more of rural �anitoba than my honour- able friend. ' MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, you might have to clarify the procedure. I don't think I require a motion. I think it's a request that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair. MR . SPEAKER: If it is agreed by the House I can leave the Chair. MR . CHERNIACK: Then if it's agreeable, I would suggest tha�, Mr. Speaker, you leave the Chair and that we go to Law Amendments. Now the oniy question in my mind is whether we L--�--� L

1578 October 9, 1969 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd.) ...•. adjourn the House or hopefully Law Amendments will be ended early enough for us to come back and transact business -- (Interjection) -- I would be optimistic enough since I know Mr. Speaker is not intending to leave the building, that we do ask him to leave the Chair in order to permit us to convene in Law Amendments and then we could notify the Speaker when that committee has risen to report. In the event that we do not complete by 5:30, then I would undertake that we will find a quorum suff icient to come in here and adjourn the House. MR . JAMES H.

BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, by way of clarificati on - I don't want to add on to what has been said, but is .it the intention of the Leader of the House to follow the same procedure as yesterday? That is, we return to the House at the call of the Chair, which of course will be the bell? MR . CHERNIA CK: That we return to the House at the_ call of the Chair, of the Speaker? I see. Well then I appreciate the honourable member's assistance in setting up the procedure for this afternoon. MR . McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day would I be permitted one more question?

I was planning on asking a question about these dynamite caps that were stolen in Granview from Hydro, and I wonder if the Minister or possible the Attorney-General can give me any information as to what is taking place .. . MR . MACKLING: Like any other offense that is co=itted in the Province of Manitoba, my department will be investigating, I'm sure. MR . WATT: A further question to the First Minister. I didn't quite get his answer to the question posed by the Honourable Member from Souris-Killarney? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the Honourable Member for Arthur, I simply indicated to the previous question that for the past many years I have travelled through and tried to make myself acquainted with the many different rural areas of Manitoba.

I feel that I am quite familiar with the different rural areas of Manitoba and the kind of economic problems being faced in recent months, and for that matter for the past year and a half and more, and the Minister of Agriculture has just had a task force conduct some in-depth analy ses, and we have in response to that come forward with a bill to increase by $5 or $6 million the amount of loan capital that will be made available to farmers who want to try to convert out of grain into livestock production or hog operations, or even for those who wish to remain in grain but who have certain obligations to meet, and I don't see that there would be any useful purpose served by postponing at this time any trade mission effort that has already been ar ranged quite a while ago.

MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, will you now leave the Chair, please. ********** (Resumption of 2:30 Session after Law Amendments Co=ittee.) HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would now go back into Co=ittee of the Whole House to tidy up the Bill 46 which was not concluded. Mr� Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Co=ittee of the Whole House to consider Bill No. 46 and Bill No. 45. MR .

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. We're dealing with Page 13 of the bill. MR . ENNS: I thought we were on the amendment. MR . CHAIRMAN: Has the Honourable Member for Rhineland a point of order? MR . JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Yes. You mentioned that we were dealing with Page 13 of the bill. We were dealing with the amendment or the motion that I presented to you earlier.

October 9, 1969 1579 MR . CHAIRMAN: I have a proposed motion from the Honom;able Member for Rhineland. MR . ENNS: .Could I ask the Chairman to read the motion plt�ase, for the benefit of the members of the House? MR . CHAIRMAN: Yes. The motion is that subsection (

b) of

Section 33 of the Bill be deleted. I would now like to make the following comment on that motion. We had a similar - I - motion to this in Committee and it deals with the question of whether or not in fact a motion is necessary to delete a

section of a bill, and I would refer members to Beauchesne Page 170, subsection (14), which says that an amendment which would produce the same result as if the original motion were simply negative is out of order. It seems to me that. motions of this kind I . . are, first of all, out of order mainly on the grounds, aside from tb'e fact that it's in Bea11Chesne which is sufficient authority, that they are not really necessary. When the

section of the bill is reached, the Chairman in committee asks whether that

section passed. If a member voices_ opposition to that

section passing, then it is only necessary for the1 Chairman to either ask for a voice vote to clarify the situation or for the member in oppositio:q. to ask for ayes and nays. It just seems to me that this kind of motion is not essential; the member can achieve exactly the same - exactly the same, namely, that if he wishes it to be deleted he simply at that point voices opposition, in which case a vote can be taken. So I would lf"le that this amendment is out of order on the grounds that it is, according to parliamentary p;rocedure, out of order and also on the grounds that it is not necessary. MR . FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, I would have to challenge your ruling because we're dealing with this bill page by page and how else can we vote on a specific item? - MR . PAULL EY: Mr. Chairman, may I say to my honourabll friend that irrespective of whether we're passing the bill page by page, he still has the prero ia tive of calling on a specific item within that page. So he's not deprived of that right. MR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, it's either I place the motion,or you call a specific item. Otherwise how can we have a vote? And I think it's much simpler to bring in an amendment like this or a motion like this and have a vote on it.

MR . PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, on this particular page, because of my honourable friend having some reservations on it, m1ay I suggest that on this particular page we call it item by item in order to give my honourable friend the opportunity. MR . CHAIRMAN: I think that's clear, that I will call this page by section, and when we come to that

section the Honourable Member for Rhineland can signify a nay when the Chair man asks as to a pass or not, and then at that point, if the member .feels that he has supp ort or wishes to have a recorded vote, we can ask for a recorded vote. l That simplifies the pro- - cedure of always moving a motion that is out of order and that is not necessary. Page

Section 32 (a)--passed; (b)--passed; (c)--passed. MR . FROESE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can call for a vote now on this but by calling for a vote now honourable members might want to debate it further. MR . PAULLEY: I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that my honourable friend just needs to wait until we get to that particular

section and then point . . • MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. i MR . WATT: We're there. We're at this

section now, and ho1" can the member ask for a vote in the Committee if he did not make a motion? MR . CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, but .•• MR . WATT: He has moved that the

section be deleted and wb'at's wrong with the motion? This is what I . . . I ! MR . PAULLEY: .. . because that same conclusion can be reached by voting against the section. MR . MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. If the Honourable Member from Rhine land says nay to 33 (b), will you then put the vote ? MR . CHAIRMAN: It is not necessary for a motion to be introduced because when the

section that the person wishes deleted is reached, an opposition by voice signifies tbat. If a vote is wished to be taken, the member can simply request a vote. So it's not necessary to write out a motion and send it in. I Dealing with Page 13 again.

Section 32 -- now I believe the member is interested in

Section (

b) of 33, is that right ? MR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I think if you wanted to rule my motion out of order you should have done it long ago, not after we've debated it for an hour dr so. Secondly, I called

1580 October 9, 1969 (MR. FROESE cont'd.) . . • . . for a vote on this. MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's start again and we'll get this cleared up right now. 32 (2)--pas- sed. A MEMBER: Is that 32 or 33? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well it's renumbered on the top of Page 13 as

Section 32 and the member is interested in the very next one I'm about to call.

Section 32 (b)-- MR. FROESE: No, I'm calling for a vote on this. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member signifies a "nay" and wishes to have a re corded vote, ayes and nays. Has he support for his proposal? Ayes and nays. Call in the members. We're dealing with Bill 46, Page 13 at the top.

Section 32 (b). In asking for a vote to pass there was opposition expressed and a request for a vote. All those in favour of supporting this

section remaining and being included in the bill, please rise. 18. A COUNTID STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas, 27; Nays, MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare the vote against lost and the

section therefore remains. (Sections 32 (

c) to

Section 37 were read and passed.) HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment: That

Section 39 of Bill 46, as printed and renumbered as

Section 38, be struck out and the following

section substituted therefor: "38. This Act comes into force on a day fixed by proclamation. " MR. CHAIRMAN: Proposed change that

Section 39 renumbered

Section 38, the following words be substituted: "that this Act comes into force on a day fixed by proclamation. " The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, before accepting that amendment I'm a little puzzled by the amendment. The First Minister has indicated the support or that the necessary monies for this bill are there and will indeed be forthcoming, and normally a bill of this kind would of course come in effect, as stated in the bill, by Royal Assent.

Has there been some further search for unused capital supply that has made this amendment now necessary, or can the Minister explain why the reason for proclamation? I would ask the Minister to explain. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, there is on technical hitch with this bill at the moment and that is that under the provisions of the guarantee there is some question by the banks as to whether or not they shouldn't go over the new bill and compare it with the previous legislation to make sure that we haven't compromised their position in light of previous arrangements, and I sald that I would undertake to hold it subject to proclamation until we have had an oppor tunity to meet with them. MR. CHAIRMAN presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (The remainder of Bill 46 was read and passed.) Bill 45,

an Act to amend The Winnipeg Charter. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs� MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Transportation, that the proposed clause (

a) of subsection (1) of

Section 273 of The Winnipeg Charter, 1956, as set out in

Section 1 of Bill 45, be amended (

a) by striking out sub-clause (

i) thereof and substituting therefor the following sub-clause: (

i) on the north by the centre line of the lane south of Portage Avenue between Kennedy Street and Hargrave Street in the city and the easterly extension of that centre line to the centre line of Main Street in the city, and (

b) by strking out sub-clause (iii) thereof and substituting therefor the following sub-clause: (iii) on the south by the centre line of the lane south of Broadway between Kennedy Street and Garry Street in the city and the eastern extension of that centre line to the centre line of Main Street in the city, and . Mr. Chairman, the intent of this amendment is to include both sides of Grah.am Avenue on the north side and both sides of Broadway on the south side.

The reason for this is due to the fact that there is a proposed establishment of Centerpoint located on Grah.am Avenue and this would involve a building of some residential size, from our understanding, and it would only be eqmtable and fair lf they should proceed, that not only part of that building should be covered by provisions of this legislation but all the building would be so included by this legir:t latlon. On the same basis, we are of the opinion that it would only be fair to include both sides, both the north side and the south side of Broadway in the same amendment, Mr. Chair man.

October 9, 1969 1581 MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, this amendment comes as a result of the hearing that took place at Law Amendments and discussions that have taken place since then, and I think is a correct one. I may say as well that the suggested changes by the Honourable Member for ste. Rose and the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney appear to be incorporated in this amend ment, and I think it's to the credit of the government that they've �en prepared to act in the I l . way they are now in altering the tax freeze area of the core. If you recal , Mr.

Chairman, the . I Honourable Member from Asslnlboia had suggested an amendment,' which was defeated, which widened it tO a much greater area and there was a general feeling ihat it was too wide and a belief that in. effect it would defeat the main purpose of building and developing the core area into a residential district to be able to complement the total development that can occur in the commercial fields on Graham and on Portage.

And while I feel that from our point of view we will give support, because this is consistent with the views that we have expressed in the Com mittee and expressed to the members on the other side, while we'll give support to this, I think we should put one caveat on this indicating to the government that fthink a review of the core area would have tO be seriously considered by the time the next se�sion comes, and the ex perience of the manner in which this operates will have to be viewcli .

There is no doubt as I .. well that there are substantial developers who have holdings on the I other side of Portage Avenue- that is, the north side of Portage Avenue- between Po�e Avenue and Notre.Dame. Reference was already made by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia of the old St.

Paul's College site location which is approximately a five-acre location , which would be an ideal loca tion for the development of residential apartment premises, and the objective in creating such a tax freeze is not to give the developer a concession that he would not otherwise have, whi.ch would put some money into his pocket, but the objective of trying to deal with the tax freeze is to be able to give an incentive to make things happen. That site has now remained vacant for approximately six years, if I'm correct- six or eight years.

Thel'e has been more than one developer who has tried to deal with this on a commercial basis, for commercial undertakings and in turn for residential undertaking, and I think that in order to try and see that things do happen in Metropolitan Winnipeg, as we have to try and consider that things should happen in Manitoba, that there are a lot of innovations that have to occur, the tax freeze is one.

The government has introduced it and we support it; we support the amendment but we suggest that we may very well have to review the lines that have been set, and there may very well have to be consideration for adding to it and widening it in order to encourage. other developers to con sider Winnipeg for development rather than other communities. And may I say, as well, that dealing with the area below Bro::mway to Assiniboine Avenue, the government in its wisdom has determined to make the line, the iline of the lane.

There was a proposed amendment to be introduced by ourselves, by our party J substituting Graham Avenue for Portage and substituting Broadway for Asslnlboine, but1:we're prepared to accept this. But there are substantial holdings that may change hands below the centre line, the centre line of the lane, and between that, the lane portion and Assiniboine Avenue, and it may very well be that there will be need to have the tax incentive, the tax freeze area extended to include that if developments are to occur. Now we don't know this; we'll have to wait and make that judgment. But all I'm suggesting, Mr.

Chairman, is that in accepting this amendment from our point of view, we would want serious consideration to be given to a review of what has taken place, to be able to talk to those who are involved in development, and to be able to determine whether in fact the core area should be widened. , And, Mr.

Chairman, here would be a good example of where � e Standing Committee on Economic Development would have an opportunity- once it's called�- to hear from those people who are concerned about development and who have developed in thl.s province and in the Greater Winnipeg area, and who would be interested in developing in this area, to determine whether in fact, first, the tax freeze as proposed is the best method, and in turn whether the core area itself has been defined in a limited way which would restrict the development, and whether it should be extended or not.

But I'm looking forward to the opportunity in the stand ing Committee on Economic Development for such a discussion and for such information to be furnished for judgments to be made. At this time, however, by making the changes that are being proposed, it would appear now that the Centrepoint area and other areas in other projects that have been suggested on the other side of Graham, will now be included within the tax freeze area.

1582 October 9, 1969 MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR . JACK HARDY (St. Vital): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if I might direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs in his capacity as Minister of Government Services. It would appear now at the moment that, with this amendment, it would include the pro vincial government parking lot at the corner of York and Edmonton, I believe. --(Inter jection) - Yes, fine. Now my question: Is that a leased property or is it government owned? MR . PAWLEY: If I answered you I'd be guessing so I have to take it as notice. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR . ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Chairman, just one question. I was wondering, with the changes he made in the boundaries, the Mayor of Winnipeg yesterday suggested that what he's aiming at, or what the city is aiming at is to get at vacant property. And I would suggest, rather than cutting down the centre line of Main Street, that between there and the CNR tracks is a good volume of vacant property. MR .

CHERNIACK: If I may answer that, I was the one that was able to discuss this pro posed amendment with the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg and with the Director of planning of Metro. They both expressed complete satisfaction with the proposal. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Chairman, I feel the amendment is much better than what the bill was before.

However, it doesn't go as far as what I proposed in Law Amend ments Committee yesterday, because I feel that this will become a perennial problem and we'll have a bill next year here to extend the tax freeze, and extend to what it is at the present time. I think the proper course that the government should have taken is to work out and define what is the centre core of the City of Winnipeg. I think that should have been the first --(Interjec tion) --I've read the copy. I have one, and I'm familiar with it, but I still feel that it was the number one thing that the government should have done.

And secondly, if they wanted to just have a tax freeze in one part of the city core of Winnipeg, this maybe would have done the job what they wanted to do to sort of start the development, and, say, next year we don't have to proceed with it.

My argument at the time -yesterday -was, and still is today; is it fair, are we dis criminating in any way against the landowner or developer on the other side of Portage who has an extensive amount of investment tied up in land in parking lots and his land is not in the premium location as the land that we have the tax freeze at the present time, which I feel is probably the best, the most premium land there is in the City of Winnipeg or right in the city core. However, I made my point yesterday; I will not pursue it; and I think the amendment makes the bill much better than it was before. MR .

CHAIRMAN: On the proposed amendments. Well, I don't think we can move that fast.

Section 1, subsection 273, 1 (a) (

i) as amended --passed; (H)--passed; (iii) as amended --passed. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, on the next, the (iv)

section dealing with Kennedy Street, was there no request made that we have a similar provision made to extend to the lane beyond MR . CHERNIACK: No, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIV AK: Mr. Chairman, I think this would not include the St. Stephens chur ch location. As amended now, it would include it. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. McKELLAR: ••• a question. Would it include that new development taking place on Donald and Broadway? MR . CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. McKELLAR: The whole complex? MR . CHERNIACK: No, te the lane. MR .

McKELLAR: Yes, but not the housing complex. MR . CHERNIACK: To the lane. MR. SPIV AK: •.• if I'm correct, the portion between Broadway and the lane is the commerci al, and from the lane down to the Assiniboine happens to be the residential in this particular case.

October 9, 1969 15 83 MR. CHERNIACK: That's not my impression but, \\hatever it is, that's the way the ball bounces. MR . CHAIRMAN: (The remainder of Bill 45 was read sectio� by

section and passed.) The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I realize the hour of adjournment is around but I wonder if, by leave, I wruld have the indulgence of the House to make a very qrief comment on a bill that we just finished passing. It would be very brief. · MR . CHAIRMAN: Does the Member have leave? MR . PAULLEY: On the bill that has just passed? ·• MR . ENNS: No, I'm referring to Bill No. 46, The Agricultutal Credit bill. MR . CHAIRMAN: He's referring back to a previous bill. MR . PAULLEY: My honourable friend will have the opportunity on third reading. MR . ENNS: Well, fine. MR .

PAULLEY: Or if it's just a brief one, I've no objection. If it a brief one, by leave we'll allow my honourable friend. MR .

ENNS: I only wanted to say to the Honourable Minister c;>f Agriculture, and indeed to the government benches, that it's not too often that a bill is broukht into the session rather late with the relatively short time that we've had, and aside from the criticial comments and the reservations expressed with respect to that particular bill, we have, on this side, certainly recognized the intent of the government and, in doing so, expresseq. our own genuine concern about the situation facing agriculture in Manitoba, and that we have proceeded with the bill in the, I think the members opposite would agree, in the relatively rapid manner that it has pro ceeded through the House.

I believe that I have to say that, in spite of the Minister's reluctance in certain areas to furnish members on this side with specific infomnation as to interest rates, as to how the operative

section of the bill is going to in fact be dealt with. We have in fact said, "We'll trust you and we hope that you will work this out to the benefit of Manitoba farm ers," but I think at this particular time, at this particular time, th� t it has to be stated that we went along with the bill because of our concern for the agricultural situation in Manitoba. MR . GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: Are you asking leave to make a comment? 1 MR . GRAHAM: Yes, I would like to have leave of this . • • ' MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I may suggest to my honourable friend that that would not come in Committee of the Whole House. I move, Mr. Chairman, that the Committee rise. (I'll deal With your problem, Harry, in a moment.) MR . CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House has considered Bills 45 and 46 and has asked m� to report same with cer tain amendments. IN SESSION MR . DO ERN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honouritble Member for Winnipeg Centre, that the report of the Committee be received. MR .

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . PAULLEY: Mr� Speaker, my honourable friend the Member for Birtle-Russell has a Bill No. 48, dealing with the matter of the Rural Municipality of Shoal Lake.

The bill has only come on to the tables of the honourable members this afternoon, but I think my honourable friend is desirous of asking leave that it may be given second readb).g now, with an exte�U�ion of the hour, in order that it may be considered possibly this evening in Committee of the Whole House rather than going back into Law Amendments Committee so that the matter may be con sidered. I leave the procedure in my honourable friend's hands. MR. SPEAKER: Is leave granted? (Agreed.) The Honourable Member for Birtle-_ Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the House Leader for expressing it in words far more capably than I. · MR . GRAHAM presented, by leave, Bill No. 48,

an Act to validate By-law No. 801 of the Rural Municipality of Shoal Lake, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker� I beg to move, seconded by � e Honourable Minister of

1584 October 9, 1969 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd.) . . . • • Health and Social Services, that the House do now adjourn. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House adjourned until 8:00 o'clock Thursday evening.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-65-
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 65 .pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7735c9ad447d3d7fa6cc2257cdcf25e485373c82

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).