r VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 1, 1977 NO.l03

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3604 Page 1 - ms Mr. W. Carter. in the LaScie plant we were not required to eng~ge a double shift until June 30 last year when in fact they are engaging a double shift in that plant because of the increased landings. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all of us here Y-s:~T . WINSOR: / ~e delighted to hear that the Minister of Fisheries has now become a prophet, he is prophesying from one year to the other. Capt.Dodd has lost his place in forecasting.

Hm-rever, Sir, we are very pleased that the fishery has gotten off to a good start. But there are some disturbing matters arising from the fisheries, and one is the situation which we find along the Northwest Coast where the fishermen have just started to fish, and they find)through storms and ice,they can no longer fish their gear because much of it is damage~ · and the government does not seem to have any programme to take care of them. And there is another disturbing matter, Mr.

Speaker, and that is the fishermen along the Northeast Coast have been notified that the price of fish is down four cents per pound this year. MR. W. CARTER: That is the salt fish. CAPT. WINSOR: Well, it is the price of fish. Whether it is fresh or salt, it affects the fishermen. So even though the minister paints at this moment a very bright picture as far as catch is concerned, there are, as I say, some disturbing factors about the fishing industry, but we hope that these will be resolved, Sir, and I am sure that we all look forward to a very succesful and prosperous fishery. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR..

SPEAKER : The han. Minister of Tourism. ~1r. Speaker, I wish to make the following concerning the establishment of national parks in Labrador. MR. HICKEY: \"tatement ------.... ·---·----~ -· -----... _ :101.00

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3604 Page 2 - ms Hr. Hickey. As members of the House are aware my department has for some time been holding preliminary discussions with Parks Canada with regards to the possible establiRhment of two national parks in Labrador, in the :Healy Mountains area and the Torngat Mountains. ~-fR. NEARY : Any telephones? MR. HICKEY: The amount of information availatle at this tL~e is not sufficient for government to make a decision on the desirability or otherwise of having parks established in either of the above areas.

In view of this the following course of action has been approved by government to obtain the necessary background information to further consider this matter. Both Parks Canada and my department will continue with a programme of public involvement to determine the attitude of the people of Labrador to the establishment of national parks. Particular emphasis will be placed on how the establishment of any park might affect traditional lifestyles. During the coming Summer months discussions will be conducted within the communities.

I have requested Parks Canada to provide ~e with a definite develonment plan for each area, namely, the Mealy Mountains and the Torngat Mountains area,by the end of this year. This plan will provide details as to the type and level of proposed development ' and the economic impact to be expected. Appropriate departments of government will be requested to do an assessment of the impact of national parks being established at Mealy Mountains and Torngat Mountains.

These assessments will be considered by government in arriving at a decision with regards to the net benefit of establishing national parks in the areas mentioned. ~fuen the above has been completed, government will have adequate information on which to make a final decision. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: The minister must have guessed that I was going to question him in the Question Period so he comes out and gives us a ministerial statement on it.

Our feelings are very similar to the minister's that we do not have sufficient information from National Parks in Ottawa ----------to make any decision or to get involved any further down the line in the 101.01.

June 1, 1977 Tape no . 3604 Pag e 3 - ms Mr. Strachan. setting of the two national parks, but predominantly the one in the Torngat Mountains . I should inform the minister t hat there was a fairly large meeting in Natin last night discussing the essence of what he stated here. :1.0102

+ June 1, 1977 Tape 3605 EC - 1 MR. STRACHAN: And I should inform him that although Labrador people in some cases have been negative towards parks, the meeting last night,apparently of many representatives including the Inuit Association and the council and elders,indicated that they are n~t against the parks totally as such; in fact,in some cases they are very much for the parks provided there _are_ guarantees of preserving the traditional hunting rights and being able to carry on their life­ style as in the past. And so we welcome the statement from the minister.

I should add that there was some question that the Province - and maybe the minister can dispel _ the rumour- there was some question that the Province did not want to allow the national parks to have that park in the Torngat Mountains because of possible future mineral development and there was apparently some question there. So later on, possibly in Question Period,I could maybe elicit a response from the minister on that. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Mount Scio. DR. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Glouster Place in the electoral district of Mount Scio. Glouster Place is a road approximately a fifth of a mile long running north off Ridge Road. It is just on the boundary of the Pippy Park proper and it is in the Pippy Park control zone. The prayer of the petition is as follows: We the undersigned supporters solicit your representation in our plight for the paving of Glouster Place. The conditions of Glouster Place,wh:Lch is one of the few unpaved roads in the greater St.

John's area,is deteriorating to the point where it often makes for hazardous driving and is causing great inconvenience because of dust conditions. Hr. Speaker, this petition was signed by all forty-three residents of Glouster Place over nineteen years of age. 10103

Jtme 1, 1977 Tape 3605 EC - 2 DR. WINSOR: I know the road well. It is in a deplorable condition and I pledge my support that - MR. NEARY: Many of these people must live on Ridge Road,not on Glouster Place. DR. ~\TINSOR: }fust of them~. I believe - on the corner. MR. NEARY: Only three or four families live in there. DR. WINSOR: Oh, no, you are wrong, - - -·-- . ·~ MR. NEARY: There are not that many houses. DR. WINSOR: There are quite a few new homes in there in the last three or four years, some lovely homes.

And it is in a deplorable state and I do pledge my support that we will be able to get this paved by the end of the summer, and I refer the petition to the Department of Transportation and Commtmications. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to support the petition and to say a word in support of it on behalf of those of us on this side of the House. I cannot claim to be as familiar with the Ridge Road and Glouster Place as the han. gentleman from Mount Scio or the hon. gentleman from LaPoile district (Mr.

Neary) but you know, it is obvious there is a need and I hope the need will be met. In saying that, Sir, I want to say again that there are many such needs throughout the Province. And I would hope this year the government will endeavour to provide pavement to a number of parts of the Province and will endeavour to provide it - and I think the hon. gentleman from Mount Scio (Dr. Winsor) would agree with this - in accord with the needs, with the priorities.

Because there are areas of this Province, Sir, where it is not just a question of one road not being paved; there areas of this Province where there are still no municipal roads paved at all,or next to none paved. And along those lines, Sir, it might be of interest to Yo.ur Honour and to the petitioners to note that I have 10104

June 1, 1977 Tape 3605 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: had some analysis done and I do not know the reasons for the state of affairs,although I can certainly take a hazard at them, but in the last year on the average there was - I have come by , I should say, a document that has been hitherto held secret and that is the analysis of exactly what work the Department of Transportation and Communications have done in every part of this Province in the last three or four years. And this has now . come to me and I will be making it public.

But on an average last year for every dollar spent in a district represented by a member on this side of the House, of provincial money as opposed to DREE money, there was three dollars spent in a district represented by gentle- men on the other side. And I find that a very interesting figure indeed. The Minister of Transportation is not here or I would ask him how this can be. l!R. DOODY: What is - the breakdown on DREE funds? MR. ROBERTS: I have a breakdown on the DP~E funds although I do not have the figure in front of me. The DREE funds will heavily favour the areas where the DREE roads are. MR. PECKFORD: MR.

SPEAKER: ~-m·. - PECKFORD : A point of order. A point of order has been raised. It seems to me that the hon. Leader of the Opposition is either in the realm of debate or very close to it, and I would just direct Your Honour's attention to the fact that it seems like he is fringing on breaking the rule if he has not already done so. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Hr. Speaker, I submit I had not trespassed into the realm of debate and 1.01.05

t June 1, 1977 Tape 3606 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: that I was not about to trepass into the realm of debate. The hon. gentleman for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford) would be well advised to take ~eed of the old legal maxim that every dog is entitled to his first bite. And I t-rould permit further, Sir, that Your Honour does not need any direction on the rules of the House.

The very most that the member might wish to do is to drmv to Your Honour 1 s attention what a member believes might be a breach of the rules, and request Your Honour to intervene, but I think it is presumptuous of the han. member for Green Bay to direct Your Honour to take any steps one way or the other. I do not think I was out of order, Sir. If I was then I will certainly apologize and withdraw any offensive remarks. I do not think I was out of order, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The point raised raises two questions, one of relevancy, one of debate. Certainly the hon.

Leader of the Opposition's remarks in my opinion were relevant, and I would not be prepared to rule that he had entered into the realm of debate. He was making reference to what he considered to be statistics on expenditures for road paving between various districts. That could obviously have developed into a debate on government transportation policy. In my opinion it did not, and is not at this moment debate. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~f R. ROBERTS : Thank you, Hr. Speal:er. I tvas replying to a question asked to me by the Minister of Finance. And ~y figures.as I said· did not include DREE.

The DREE figures are very heavily concentrated in the areas t·lhere the DREE roads are, including St. John's here, the district of Kilbride and so forth, the arterial road, and also of course the DPEE money is spent under a federal-provincial agreement to tvhich our government is party and in respect of which in fact our government calls the tenders ar.d awards the contracts. But the fact remains that out of provincial money for every dollar spent in a district represented by gentlemen on this side~three dollars is spent by gentlemen on the other side, and it is amazing.

And I say this for the benefit of the gentleman for Haunt 10106

June 1, 1977 Tape 3606 PK - 2 HR. ROBERTS: Scio (Dr. R. 't.Jinsor) if he wants to know hm.;r he can- and I am sure he Hants to have the road,Glouster Street,paved, I am sure he does·- and I tell him how he might help to get this paved if I ,give him but one figure; in 1965 there vTas spent in a district, a district represented in this House by a member,about $150,000 in provincial money on roads; in the next year there Has spent $1.466 millions~ about ten times as much.

And if I say to the gentleman for Mount SEio that that district was the district of Ferryland I kno"7 he '"ill understand and I know he will know what steps he has to take to ensure that the road on Glouster Street is paved. I support the petition, Sir, and I hope 1 as I have said before,that the government this year will do that which they have not done before, and that is not be narrowly and miserably partisan in attempting to make people suffer because they have expressed their free political preferences in a secret election. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition presented by my hon. friend,the member for Mount Scio,on behalf of the residents of Glouster Place. I have a feeling, Hr. Speaker, that a number of the names that appear on that petition are not really residents of Glouster Place but Ridge Road - they may live on either side of Glouster Place-because I do not believe there are forty-odd people living in that area. SOHE RON. l'1EMBERS: Oh, oh! ~ffi..

NEARY: I am very familiar with the area, Sir, because I once lived on Fox Avenue '"hich is right next door, and when I moved from Fox Avenue I was seriously considering buying a house in Glouster Place. I It was a beautiful spot. It is one of the most beautiful areas of this city, Sir. It is right on the boundary of the Pippy Park. It is in the control area but it is not in the Park. DR. R. WINSOR: They put eight new homes up there in the past year. HR. NEARY: Eight new homes in the past year, which goes 1.0107

June 1 , 1 977 Tape 3606 PK - 3 Hr. Neary: to show, Sir, that it is a very popular area. The whole Ridge Road and Glouster Place area is absolutely beautiful, Sir. It is an ideal location to build a house; it is a controlled area a:nd the boundary of the Pippy Park goes right along Ridge Road.

And I think before the last election when my hon. friend was running I believe the government paved part of the Ridge Road, they paved it from either end, but it is not paved in the centre because I drive up there every Sunday morning going to mass up on Nagle's Hill, and the road is paved along by the houses in the lower end, then there is a break, there is no pavement because there are no houses, and then as you get up near the houses on the other end the road is paved again, but there is no pavement on Gloust~r Place. AN RON. ~ffiMBER: NR . NEARY: They are working on it. They are working on it?

The hon. gentleman is working on it. Well I think the whole stretch of Ridge Road should be paved. And it is a pity, :101.08

June 1,1977 Tape 3607 - Afternoon AH-1 VR. ~·TEARY: Hr. Speaker, that r11hole area is not up~?,raded. It is one of the most beautiful parts of St. John's. Gentlemen,go up there at night and vou get a beautiful view of St. John's and of the harbour. HR. ROBERTS: There is a ~reat view from up there, is it not? MR.

NEARY: It is really an outstanding area and I ~•ould like to see that particular - I would like to see-,first of all,orderly development take place in there in Glouster Place because it is a beautiful area,and in order to do that you are going to have to put do;~ curb and gutter because there is no curb and gutter there now, pavement and so forth. Does that not come under the citv of St. John's? AN HON. ~HBER: No. HR. :"mARY: No. It is no man's land. No man's land. Well it must be right on the boundry, the citv boundrv. ~R. WINSOR: It is in the Pippy Park control area but not really in Pipuy l:lark. HR.

NEARY: Yes, Well 3ometimes I wonder about that Pippy Park, Sir. Do we knottl ~vhat r-1e are doing tying up all this beautiful land when people are so desperate for building lots for housing development? T'fe got this huge area tied uu- I think it should be released- tied up for this crowd over at the university so that they can trot around on their leisure time. ER. PECKFORD : MR.. SPEAKER: ~. PECKFORD : A point of order. A uoint of order has been raised. It would seem to me, Mr.

Speaker, that the hon. gentleman in supporting the petition to do with road improvements is now talking about the Pippy Park area and the commission and it seems to me that he is both irrelevant and debating. MlL SPEAKER: The subject matter of the petition has to do uith the paving of a road in a specific area and any detailed o~ developed remarks on the •visdom or othen1ise of having a Pipnv Par'Y Commission and its operation would be irrelevant. A comparison~ or an allusion :10109

June 1,1977 Taoe 3607 - Afternoon .AH-2 HR. SPEAKER: for purposes of comparison as long as it Tt7as not developed would,I thin~,be understandable. The hon.member. HR. NEARY: The hon.acting Government Rouse Leader seems to be awfully sensitive today, Sir, for some reason or other. He must be still smarting under the attack he got in putting his estimates through yesterday. But, Sir, it is a nice area. I believe probably now it is controlled by the Metropolitan, by the St. John's !'tetropolitan Board.

But I would like to see the area developed in an orderly fashion and I am all for pavin~ that stretch of road because - MB.. NEARY: Is there ~ oriv~te meeting or something going on here? ~tt. CMTNING: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. NR. SP~..KER: A ~oint of order. I am trying to listen to the hon.gentleman who is speaking but with the conversation going across the House ~!R. CANNING: I just cannot hear him. I think they are out of order and I wonder if "tve could have order - here so we can listen to one another in this House' MR. ROBEPTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: Hon.Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I a one of the offending parties,I confess. I apologize. I was just asking ~<~hen the real House Leader would be back, Sir, and the hon.gentle~~n opoosite was trying to help me because it is in the interest of all concerned that ~.:re have the House Leader back. But I am sorry. I was guilty. t·1R. PECKFORD: To that point of order, ~r. Speaker. ~ffi. SPEAKER : Hon. gentleman . HR. PECKFORD: I was one of the offending parties too and I want to apologize because I was communicating across the House to find out "t..rho the Leader of the Opposition \vas. NR.

SPEAKER: The point of order has heen dis~osed of and the raucous atmosphere has now subsided. ~'fR. NEARY: 1:-1r. Speaker, it is getting to be a hard place, Sir. It will soon be time to close her down now. It is a good thing 1Y'e only have about another week or so to eo or shP. wnnl il hP 1..01.10

June 1,1977 Tape 3607 - Afternoon AH-3 }·fR. NEARY: like one of the taverns rlo~mtmm. All thev got to do is bring the dart boards in nolv, Sir. I do hope that the member ~vill have success, Sir, in getting this piece of road paved because I think it is a very deserving case. It is only - what?- a few hundred yards? DR. ~H~lSOR: One-fifth of a mile. MR. ~mARY: One-fifth of a mile.

Well I am sure that the Minister of Transportation can dig down in his pocket if he has to and find that people that live much to pave one-fifth of a mile up in Glouster Place. -\- for thl:!se ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS TO ~~ICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN Fan. minister of Public Harks f, Services. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yesterday the hon.member for LaPoile posed a ~question to me as !1inister of Public Harks which I undertook to check on. I have referred and discussed the matter 'vith my colleague. the Minister of Tourism,'tvho 'tvith leave will reply to the question. MR. NEARY: Is that in connection rN.ith the golf course?

Is the minister going to give me an ans'tver? MR. SPEAKER: Hon.Minister of Tourism. HR.. HICKEY : Mr. Speaker, the question as I understand it was what cost ~to the Province the golf - x· NEARY: Wnat or otherwise does the Province have? involvement , what connection financial HR. HICKEY: Which is ~-1hat cost to the Province. ~JR. NEARY: Hell not necessarily. I have not been able to find out what the cost is of the Norma and Gladys. rffi.. HICKEY: I agree with my hon.friend, Hr. Speaker, :10111.

June 1, 1977, Tape 3608, Page 1 -- apb ~~1R. HICKEY: that it is time we got out of here because now we are matching wits for sure. The proposed golf course at Sandringham or in the Terra Nova National Park, wherever it might be, whatever site it might be on,\.,rill ·- cost this Province nothing, not a red cent, not a nickel. :1R. NEARY: What about manpower in getting the land assessed and purchased? f'.1R. HICKEY: No, nothing at all, Speaker, except that a couple of my staff help out Parks Canada people.

I am sure han. members of this House would never object to that. :··1 R • N E A R Y : Who expropriates the land if necessa rv? i1R. HICKEY: We are always ready to co-ooerate with federal officials - :m. ~~EARY: If the land has to be expropriated? r-m. HICKEY: - on any issue, on any project which is of benefit to the Province, especially at a time when jobs are required and jobs are needed. ~'1 R • N EAR Y : Well if you are going to create jobs- 1'1R. HICKEY: I am sure no member of the House, ~, '.r. Speaker - r~ R. NEARY: - you can do a better job than building a golf course. i•1 R . H I C KEY : i1 r .

S pea k e r , I s h o u 1 d 1 i k e to be heard in silence. I stand on my rights. ~·! R. S P E.l\ K E R : The h on . gent 1 em an has the r i q h t to be heard without interruption. t'lR. HICKEY: As I said, I am sure no han. member of this House, and by now not even maybe Mr.Rodriguez 1..0112

June 1, 1977, Tape 3608, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKEY: in the House of Commons, would object to this golf course which is necessary and which is a project which will - MR. NEARY: How many people can afford to buy golf clubs and golf shoes and go in and lean on the bar of a golf club? MR. NEARY: How many in Newfoundland? Are you going to discuss this tomorrow as you said? t·1 R • ~ I E A R Y : Yes. 1"1 R • H I C K E Y : Then why do you not wait? Mr. Speaker, what a job I am having trying to answer that auestion. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, it was not my intent to make a speech, but may I repeat for the benefit of my han. friend who is interjecting and interrupting me, the golf course wherever it might be, at Sandringham or whatever part of the Terra Nova National Park, as required by the Gras ~1orne agreement of 1972, and I might say, a concept, a great imperial concept conceived by the former government of which the han. gentleman was a part. i":1R. NEARY: That is not so. ~ ·1 R • H I C K E Y : Not so? It certainly was so. The former Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, Mr.

Callahan,signed the initial agreement and insisted on a golf course. f•1R. NEARY: place. ~~~.HICKEY: Let us get something in its Never mind getting anythinq! Where was my han. friend then? t1 R • S P E A K E R : Order, please! Order, plea$e! I am not sure if the han. gentleman has finished his answer, but there should be no debate during this period. 1.01.13

June 1, 1977, Tape 3608, Page 3 -- apb ~1 R • H I C K E Y : r~tR. SPEAKER: I could not agree - There should not be interruptions from han. gentlemen sitting on my right '\:: and the han. gentleman should not debate but merely give his answer. r1 R. HICKEY : Mr. Speaker, I could not agree with Your Honour more. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~1R. HICKEY: Hear, hear! You are very tolerant, Sir. I will repeat again for my han. friend, because he keeps interjecting, the golf course will not cost this Province one single, solitary red cent. ~ 1 R. NEARY: of it? ~1 R • H I C K E Y : r.-1 R. NEARY: the elite. ~1R. HICKEY: r·1 R .

N EAR Y : 1-lR. HICKEY: Can we get something in place No, we will have a golf course. We will have a golf course for No. For the aristocrats. No, the ordinary fellows like me can go and play golf. MR. NEARY: The ordinary fellows could not even afford to buy a golf club. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. i'-JR. ROBERTS: ORAL QUESTIONS The han. the Leader of the In the absence of the Premier and the Minister of Justice - rm. CANNING: \-!here is he? ;.1 R • R 0 B E R T S : I do not know where the Premier is. I never know where he is. He may be playing golf, it is a nice day.

I had a question for the Minister of Transportation,who is not here, and for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, and they are all the same 10114

June 1, 1977, Tape 3608, Page 4 -- apb rm. ROBERTS: question. Perhaps I could address it to the President of the Treasury Board w~o, in the long run, not only has to pay the shot. but is responsible for the administration of contracts. My question is this: Has there been any change made by the government in the standard contracts form which I understand is in use, in effect, in respect of highways contracts, contracts for highways projects?

The particular aspect in respect of which I am enquiring is, is there now in effect a requirement by government on a contractor that a contractor must hire locally owned trucks in an area rather than brin gin a in trucks 7rom ou~ide? Is there any change in the contracts? -1'1R.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. ~,, R • 0 0 0 0 Y : I honestly cannot an sv1er i t ' Your Honour~ I will have to take it as notice. r,1 R • R 0 B E R T S : A supplementary. 11R • S P EA K E R : A supplementary. ~,1 R • R 0 8 E R T S : I thank the minister and, you kno~tJ, I arn satisfied that all he can do is take it as notice, but would he also, since there has been no chanqe - -+- I suspect, would he also enquire as to the status of a promise, a commitment made by the gentleman from St,Barbe, as he now is, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, at a meeting held in Maynard•s Club in Hawke•s Bay in the Summer of 1975, when he announced and undertook that such a change would be brought into effect in respect of the 1976 year,which it has not been or v,ras not" been in respect thereafter.

It is a very current and very live issue on the Northern Peninsula right now, Sir. 1.01.15

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3609 Page 1 - ms Hr. Roberts. But the commitnent was made by the gentleman from St. Barbe. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. gentleman from Burin - Placentia West. 1'-IR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance, the President of Treasury Board. Would the minister tell the ~ouse or bring the House up to date on the current negotiations between ~he Police Brotherhood, the Nurses' Union and any other groups that the Treasury Board are negotiating with for contracts at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: Yes, the Police Brotherhood contract has been the conversations on that particular contract were suspended last ~ week, and I would not be at all surprised if I were to personally \ meet with some of the Brotherhood officials today to see if we can resolve or at least hear the outline of the outstanding differences The nurses' contract has gone to conciliation, and we have not anything from that as yet. We do not know where the conciliation stands. }m. NEARY: What about NAPE? MR. DOODY: Which NAPE? MR. NEARY: Are you negotiating with NAPE right now? HR.

DOODY: There is always some unit or other under negotiation. But there is nothing close to a crucial area. The Waterford, we are still 'tV"aiting for the report from Hr. Hart. He was scheduled to get us in his mediation report yesterday or today but as yet \ve have not hear from him. So everything else seems to be fairly calm • ~1R. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Do I understand correctly or interpret the minister's answer correctly that negotiations had bogged down with the t Police Brotherhood but will be resumed again this afternoon, and would the minister indicate if there is any possibility of settlement, or at the parties too far apart at this particular moment to get an agreement? 1.0:116

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3609 Page 2 - ms }ill. SPEAKER : The han. }linister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I ·do not think that the parties are too far apart to get an agreement, Your Honour. The record of Treasury Board's negotiation on behalf of government during the past several years \vith the forty-some units of the public service has been a rema~kable one. I think the only strike has been the unfortunate Haterford one which has been very spectacular and· one that has lasted far too long.

Generally speaking the negotiating capacities of both sides have been excellent and r,.;e have managed to achieve agreement, as I say, in all these areas during the past several years. There is absolutely no reason to suspect that the same cannot be achieved with the Brotherhood in this particular area. :-I:R. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. ~1R. SPEAKER : A supplementary, MR. NEARY: In connection with the Waterford strike, _\/we have not had an U?dating from the minister now- the minister was ~ay for a rest~so we were told by the hon.

Premier,for a couple of weeks, and we really have not heard too much about the strike at the Waterford. I did hear a release on the radio the other day that the number of police, members of the Ne~vfoundland Constabulary who were doing duty at the Waterford, has now been wound down I believe from thirteen on a shift to nine or something on a shift. I do not know if this is correct or not, but perhaps the minister might take a few moments and bring us up to date on the . situation at the ~-laterford seeing that ~ve have not heard anything about it since the minister took his rest two weeks ago? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. DOODY: Yes, Well, I have naturally checked since I got ', back from my rest, Mr. Speaker, and the situation at the Waterford, . in terms of patient care according to the administration and the medical people and the Department of Health here,is excellent. The security staff has been · reduced ' as the hon. member indicated. There are fewer policement on duty there now than there were prior to a couple of weeks ago. And everything seems to be quiet and calm and things are working quite ~.;ell and there is nothing to report that has changed in any wav.

Things are going along as they had been. And hopefully ~vi th the help of Mr. Hart we will get :1.01.17

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3609 Page 3 - ms ~r. Doody. the thing resolved and the staff back to work and the strike settled as soon as possible. going on fairly well. But right now things are MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary. \.Jould the minister indicate when he expects to get Mr. Hart's report? I drove by the Waterford yesterday. The ~ picket lines are still up. I find it very difficult to believe that everything is going along normal at the Waterford when 450 of its workers are out on strike and have been out on strike for several weeks.

Could the minister give some kind of an explanation for this? MR. DOODY: Are you finished now? MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. DOODY: Well, sit down like a good fellow. MR. NEARY: All right, okay. 1vffi. SPEAKER : The han. Minister of Finance. NR. DOODY: It is really no surprise to me, Your Honour, that the han. member finds it difficult to understand this problem. I notice that he has the same 1.0118

June 1, 1977 Tape 3610 PK - 1 Hr. Doody: difficulty with most problems that confront him. But the simple truth of the matter is that the situation is as I described it and I cannot help but once again reiterate the fact that things are going along extremely well in there. }"R. . NEARY : There must be something wrong. J.vlR. DOODY : You know,I can issue an invitation on behalf of government and on behalf of the administration, on behalf of the staff to the han. member to dro~ in there at any time and take a tour if he feels like it. ~fR. NEARY: But the hon. gentleman will take me en a guided tour. HR.

DOODY: I would be delighted. well as soon as the strike is over I 'l·lill go in with you. l·iR. NEARY: If we we!!t in now we might be mistaken for - r·IR. DOODY: That is right. And as a matter of fact, I think I would prefer to wait until this han. House is adjourned before I go in because the tendancy is to keep people like us in there. MR. NEARY:, You would only need one doctor !'.ow .. ~fR. DOODY: It is probably too much for the administration to avoid. ~-IR. NEARY: I might - MR. DOODY: But I can assure you that things are well. If they 'lvere not you 1vould hear about it. !.1R.

NEARY: But it is hard to understand it. HR. DOODY: There are onl~ half as many ~atients there as there were before the strike for one thing. ~fR. NEARY: But where are the patients? ~lR. DOODY: As the hon. member has mentioned before there are extra staff, nursing people brought in from outside St. John's. HR. NEARY: How about volunteers? Any volunteers? HR. DOODY: There are a number of volunteers. It is not as great as it was in the beginning because there are more professional people in there now. My wife, for instance, still goes in there from time to time.

And this is a firsthand report that I got from her only yesterday, she came out - 1.0119

June 1, 1977 Tape 3610 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Is this going to cause the government now to take a whole look at the way that Waterford is being operated? MR. DOODY: Yes, I think that the administration is going to have to take a serious look at the whole situation. But then again, as I say, the number of patients in there is not as large. But the out­ patients area in the other hospitals has obviously MR. NEARY: It is unbelievable. MR. DOODY: - their workload has picked up considerably. MR. NEARY: It is unbelievable, you know. MR. DOODY: But it is true nevertheless. --1- MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. P. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, the question I have I address to Minister of Industrial Development. I think he is in either corridor or in the office outside. I am hoping he will return to his seat by the time that I preface my question. And my qu~stion is based on this, that in the last few days, last week or so, there have been, according to the media that dockyard officials are about to clamour to Ottawa to have a synchronized lift for the dockyard in the West End of St. John's.

They have reported that they are losing, I think, several millions of dollars worth of work, maintenance and suchlike owing to the fact that they do not have a synchronized lift. What I want to ask the minister is this: Number one, should the federal government, the bigger Crown corporation accede to the wishes of the dockyard here and install a synchronized lift, what does he think the effect is on the one at Marystown?

And number two, the fact that they say they are losing quite a lot of orders because they have not got that facility - we got it at Marystown and it is not working to its full capacity - what does the han. minister suggest would happen when the greater Crown corporation with more money behind it sets up the same facilities and then the lesser - not the lesser corporation, but the corporation with the lesser money, the Provincial Crown corporation - has to compete with the Federal corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial Development. :t0120

June 1, 1977 Tape 3610 PK- 3 HON. J. LUNDRIGAN: Hr. Speaker, I can appreciate the hon. gentleman's concern over this particular matter because at this really~there has been a problem of adequate work f or lfarystown let alone further competition. He have been pretty closely in contact ~.rith the CN and particularly Industry Trade and Commerce as it relates to the facilities here in St. John's.

There is definitely a need for improved facilities on the East Coast of Canada for heavy artillery, I will call it, the heavy ships, the heavy shipping, and \ve feel ourselves that as a department of government that there has to be improved facilities right here in the CN dockyard. Just to give the member one indication of the reason for it ,which will provide no competition for Harystown as ~ve have now supported officially as a Province the Canadian National's efforts to have the Soviet fleet serviced in the CN dock in St. John's.

Up ur.til recently} the last two years,when negotiations took place bet~veen the Soviets and the CN the federal government were very, very reluctant to allow the turnaround of the Russian ships here because of the fact that we did not ~ave control of the 200 mile limit. Of course, now that we do have control that reason is eliminated and r,.7e see no reason why CN or a Russian crew should not be allowed to turnaround through Gander~. 1.0121.

June 1, 1977 Tape 3611 EC - 1 MR. LtJNDRIGAN: if you want,or indirectly through CN here in St. John's and we support every effort to have that type of servicing done. If that can be achieved then of course the facilities are inadequate. Aside from that,the synchrolift, a capability that has been requested, we perceive it to have no real competitive- ness with Harystown., the type of work we are doing in Harystown. And we are confident that with some of the new activity,such as the announced programme by Mr.

Barney Danson yesterday with something like $36 million - wa~ it? - in ,;10rk to be appropriated for just the navigational design work to be done for the military, that these types of yards 1 like the CN here,will have a much better future if they have better facilities. So in a nutshell, it should not provide any unfavourable competition for Marystown. And I think that with the new emphasis in the shipbuilding industry by fisheries and some of the new military aims as well,there should be plenty of ·activity down the road for both the shipyards. HR. CANNDl'G: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. l!R. CANNING: That was a long answer, Mr. Speaker. But number one, the first thing that comes to my mind if I may preface my question is the fact that the modern shipyard built at Marystown was one of the most modern in the world when it was built. I think it was the second shipyard that had a synchro·r.ized lift. We could take up ships in a few minutes. If,say, St.

John's is asking for modern facilities to be able to meet that demand of the extra work,could the minister tell me if his government would consider extending or expanding in Marystown where they have already people who are familiar - you know, we have a good staff there, everybody knows that; we have good work from welders up who are already familiar with repair of draggers and the maintenance of ships and whatnot.

Again,on the other hand, the other question I would like to ask the minister is what he thinks of it - it has come on him like it has come on me- the fact that the CNR, as everybody knows, is subsidized by millions and millions and millionsi money does not mean anything to 1.01.22

June 1, 1977 Tape 3611 EC - 2 MR. CANNING: CNR. So all right, when they get the dockyard going up there and get a synchronized lift and they start competing with the provincial one at Marystown,I do not think we have a chance in the world to keep that yard going up there. I mean, you know, I respect the minister's opinion - I just want an answer to it. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker - MR. CAL'lliiN G: It is by no means any criticism, you know, of him or the operation there or anything else. It is just that I want to know at the moment ~.;rhat we do expe~t _to happen. MR. SPEAKER: HR. LUNDRIGAN: The bon.

Hinister of Industrial Development. Hr. Speaker, if the CN had taken the proper initiatives and interest in the dockyard here we would have had much more modern facilities today than we have. And we feel it would be negligent on the part of the government not to support the CN and Industry Trade and Commerce who I believe will be taking some initiatives on the East cc.ast of Canada with new capability in docking and the type of facility that we have here in St. John's. So we do not feel it is going to provide unfavourable competition for Marystown.

Now just to indicate - the situation in Marystown indicates whether there would be need for expansion. He have just had the Ambassador from Norway to Canada who visited the shipyard to inspect the tugs that have been under construction for some months now for the Norwegian company and he could hardly believe - he was so impressed with the skills, the capability and the efficiency of that relatively small facility by world standards.

And I will say to the member that with the new dawn of activity on the horizon for shipping and ship related activities, marine related activities, even though we will have the ups and downs and the peaks and the troughs that Mr. Burgess talks about and Mr. Barclay talks about we will still have, we think, quite a bit of activity over the next decade or so in shipbuilding and ship related activities. And I hope that if the kinds of building programmes get off the ground in the next number of years that we think 10123

June 1, 1977 Tape 3611 EC - 3 MR. LUNDRIGAN: will get off the ground~I would not be surprised if we are going to be looking at increasing the capability out of Marystown. MR. CANNING: MR. SPEAKER: - MR. CANNING: Mr • . Speaker ~· a final supplementary. A final supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I am iust not clear, I do not havP. my question answered as this moment. The main part of my question is this, that the dockyard, the CNR at St. John's are - I mean, there are people demandin~ now, suggesting and demanding~and they are about to make representation to Ottawa for a synchronized lift.

One of my questions is if there is a synchronized lift there and Marystown has to compete with the CNR, I ask him what effect does he think it ·. ~rl.ll have on Marystown? And number two is that this jusiness of what business we have or what you have coming up or anything else, or this business about the Norway tugs 1 you know, that is not too good a - 1..01.24

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3612 Page 1 - ms Hr. Canning. contract. I am sure he is aware of that. We are not going to make any money on them. We are probably going to lose money. I do not know if we will get any more tugs or if it is going to be economical to do it. But, Mr. Speaker, why I am asking the question~ to me at the present moment, to get a syncrolift for St. John's, get the CNR backing it, and then the ?rovincial government - I mean, we will call it a :?rovincial Crown corporation, backed by the provincial government.

If you have not got enough money to keep hospital beds open this year, what is going to ha~pen to the yard at Marystown? That is my question, and I would like a straightfonvard answer. The question is simule and plain. I would like an answer to the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The hon. minister. }'IR • UJNDRI GAL~ : Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to see the hon. gentlemen having a bit of spirit. That encourages me somewhat. MR. C~~ING: I am concerned about this. ~m. LUNDRIGAN: I hope it sort of manifests the spirit he finds in ~arystown. Last year there was a substantial loss in Marystown.

This year we hope to break even on an operational basis~which is a substantial improvement over the past year. Number t~ro, last year, Hr. Speaker, we were able to out bid the CN dockyard here on a number of contracts, competitive bids. And I have got confidence that with inc~eased facilities here- and assuming increased facilities which is a long way down the road if there is a go ahead on new capability - I have got confidence that we can compete in Marystown. We will get our share of work. MR.. CANNING: We are -losing bids up there now.

We got a ship the other day turned away from Marystown because they could not compete. So,I mean,do not talk to me about winning. We are losing. MR. LUNDRIG.A..~: :-rr. Speaker, the hon. member is manifesting a level of pessimism which is certainly not in tune with the attitude in Marystown Shipyards today. 1..01.25

June 1, 1977 HR. CA..'iNING. MR.. LilliDRIGA..~: Tape no. 3612 Page 2 - ms No! He will compete. Already we have shown - and last year I was surprised there was not a fuss out of the shipyard when we competed favourably for contracts that were bid on mutually by both the yards, and we competed over several of the Atlantic yards as well dmm in Harystown . . HR. CANNING: l-fR. LUNDRIGAl'i: For what? Last year ,.,e did something like $4 million worth of repair activity; $8 million worth of new construction. There are 350 full-time jobs down there at the moment.

And I do not think the member should really get too uptight. MR.. CA~lNING : The yard did not inspire - MR. LLJNDRIGAN: \ole have a prejudice in favour of Marystown Shipyards, because it is our o'vn Crown corporation. And as a department we do not feel that it is unnecessary or that it is going to be" a disadvantage to Harystmvn if there are improved facilities at the CN dockyard right here. That is the position we have taken. We have analyzed it very carefully. We have sat down, and we have taken almost a prejudiced position in favour of Marystown.

Now we said that is our first concern because it is our own Crown corporation, our own government Crown corporation. And we have concluded as a department that it is not to her disadvantage at all, it is to her advantage to improve the capability that we have overall here in this Province whi ch is to support any activity. And we are complaining that there is not enough aggression being used by CN and Industry, Trade and Commerce to improve the facilities at the CN dockyards in St. John's. HR. CANNING: ~1R . SPEAKER: A further supplementary.

The han. member for Baie Verte - 'ifuite Bay followed by the han. gentleman from Eagle River. HR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Social Services. I wonder if the minister could tell the House \vhether or not he is aware of the news reports today, I believe it was, that a lady and her daughter had to spend some time sleeping in a truck because they could not get assistance from his department for shelter? I wonder if the minister could tell us if he is aware of it and what his dep?rtment is doing about it? 1.0126

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3612 Page 3 - ms HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. ~· BRETT: }fr. Speaker, I believe that that information '\ came out yesterday evening or yesterday afternoon. Actually it is a seventeen year old unmarried mother and her two year old child who allegedly spent a night in the cab of a truck and another night in a shed somewhere. She was in a boarding house here in the city, and her board was paid up until Jwe 20, s:J :;:1ere was no need for her to be out in the street. I understand that there was some minor trouble at the boarding house.

However, our staff was not aware of the fact that she had left the boarding house until . thev heard it by way of the electronic media, and they had no idea that she ~•as out in the street. Apparently she has been after the staff, the city welfare, for some time to set her up in an apartment. And, of course, it is not the policy of the department to provide apartments for unmarried mothers and their children~ not if ~•e can find some alternate means, so she was refused an apartment. She could be using this as a leeway to put pressure on us. I am not suggesting that she is but it is possible. :10127

r June 1,1977 Tape 3613 - Afternoon AH-1 1'-tF'". BRETT: Somebody may be wondering T,7hy she could not go home. Nm-1 this is a real problem case. The girl was at one time a ~vard of the director and p~obably does not have any place to go other than a boarding house.But anyway the case is in hand and we are looking after it ri~ht now, Sir. l'ffi.. NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: ~~. NEARY: A sul?plementary. A supplementary. Hould the minister check into it to see if the young lady has been told by her social ~vorker some time ago to find an apartment and the del?artment would pay the rent?

Did the Yllinister check to see if that fact ~vas authentic and correct because that was in the ne~vs report and I ~ave done a little bit of checking on it myself. I am familiar with the case and have been for a couple of days. The yound lady ~vas told to find an · apartment. W11y does it take so long? ~.fuy is it such a long nroceedure for a social worker to make a decision after sending people out to look for apartments. They hunt sometimes for ~"eeks and months on end and then when they find the apartments they cannot get the application processed or they cannot get the decision taken quickly.

By the time they get the decision the department is probably gone to somebody else. ~lliy does it take so long to make these decisions? Has the minister checked on that? ~!R. SPEAKER: The on minister. MR. BRETT: ~r. Speaker, I am not aware of what the staff at city welfare told this particular case. I would estimate there must be hundreds like this going through welfare in any given month so I am not sure what they told this particular girl and neither am I aware that it takes all that long to get apnroval from the director.

It may take a long time to get an apartment~and of course I have told this House many times why that is. The fact is that ~eople would prefer to take indel?endent people into their apartments rather than people who are on welfare. I am not aware that there is an undue delay. There are a large number of cases going through so you know going through the bureaucratic 1.Q1.28

June 1,1977 Tape 3613 - Afternoon AH-2 ~1R. BRETT: system there may take a week or so but I am not aware of any undue delay. \ ~fR. SPEAKER: Hon.member for Eagle River followed by the han gentleman for ~Vindsor-Buchans. MR. STRACHAN: Could the minister of Tourism tell us whether if everything ~-,_goes all right and people are consulted, they agree to an national park i!l department and the administration are eager, enthusiastic about setting a national park in there provided everything else is okay? HR. SPEAKER: Han. minister. MR. HICKEY: Hr.

Speaker, I can only give a general ans~ver to ~hat because I think I should first of all say that the administration is interested in whatever is best for the people of Labrador. Hy statement today indicated that the total economic impact of a park Hould have to be established and the economic benefits ~vould have to be \\'ell documented before we ~vould take a final decision.

The hon.member mentions the mining aspect and I can only say to him that my statement again refers to assessment by various departments .Certainly the Department of Mines and Energy and my colleague, the Minister of Mines and Energy will be totally involved in any development of parks in Labrador because of the possibility of minerals or what have you.

And before any final decision is taken vlith regards to transferring territory to the federal government all of those things are taken into account.I can say to him that finally,with regards to the other part of his question, all other things being equal if it is shown that the development of the park in Labrador will preserve the traditional lifestyles, or take into account that and certainly not ignore that~and at the same time show some real economic benefits then certainly this administration is anxious and eager to see park development take place. :10129

June 1,1977 NR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: HR. STRACHAN : Ta?e 3613 - Afternoon AH-3 A sup?lementary. A supplementary. A final supplementary. Could the minister indicate clearly to us whether he would favour,and his department and hopefully the administration 111ould favour a national park as an economic development in the Torngat Mountains rather than any mineral development ~,Thich may occur there. Because as you can imagine any mineral development occuring in the Torngat Hountains will have a worse effect on the lifestyles:~ and the park is certainly more favourable of the avo. Could he indicate? MR.

SPEAKER: Hon.Hinister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, obviously this is a question which requires a great deal of information being made available. And as I said earlier 9 the economic benefits of course are not always considered in terms of dollars and cents. In taking into account the total economic impact~one certainly does take into account the damages. if one could put it that ~'lay, changes in lifestyle, etc. I am sure that it is the desire of this administration to see jobs created, to see areas such as that part of Labrador developed.

However<Jit might ~rell be established that the declaring of an area as a national park and the transferring of a fair tract of territory to the federal government would not produce-and I say it may show this- that it would not produce the 1-:ind of economic benefits that the passing over of such a large track 1vould ~o1arrant. So there is a ~7hole host of things involved and I do not think that anyone at this time can give a definite answer to the hon.member's question.

I think it is safe to say that this administration will do whatever is in the best interests of the people of Labrador taking into account all '.aspects and all facets of the proposition• 1.01.30

June 1, 1977 Tape 3614 PK - 1 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: ~lr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs. There are some small~unincorporated areas in the Province, one in my o~m district, proposing to go to Canada Works to make application for funding for water systems basically, in particu~ar. XR. J. DI1"'N: Unincorporated areas? MR. FLIGHT: Unincorporated areas. And it would seem, Mr. Speaker, it ~vould seem probably the only way that they are going to bring this about, and it seems it is there · and it is a programme that we can take advantage of.

The question is would the minister's department, Municipal Affairs 1 make available to those communities the kind of expertise that they would need to put together the kind of a package that Canada ~urks has got to have?

You know, in unincorporat ed areas t here is probably no expertise, there is no '-'Jay of determining what that system would cost in labour and othenvise, labour and materials.so as to put together the package I • and make the application, I am wondering if the Department of Hunicipal Affairs would assist those unincorporated areas in putting together that package by providing the e..'Cpertise, services or what have you , out of the department? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. lvffi.. J. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, there are limited resources down in the department, but if you are talking about a few communities certainly I \vill see what I can do to make the expertise available. If you were talking about 500 it .;,;rould be impossible, but if you are talking about a few communities I will certainly have a look at it and make them available if it is at all possible. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. ~1R.

FLIGHT: I am just wondering if the minister is mvare of any of those unincorporated communities that .;,;re are talking about that are badly in need of water systems having made that type of an application to his department for that type of assistance that I have asked about? 1.0131.

June 1, 1977 Tape 3614 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: He, Hr. Speaker, have a fe~v :iater Committees that have gone that route, yes. HR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. HR.

NEARY: Along the same lines, Sir, as the question put y my han. friend, if we are going to have on stream pretty soon the regional \vater supply, and they are under no jurisdiction at the moment, and I believe that is going to force the minister into a position to set up a regional government or some aspect of regional government in the area. \fuat procedure Hill the minister use to set up this regional government? :-IR. LUNDRIGAl'I: He will take your application aow. NR. SPEAKER: The hon. :>1inister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing. HR. DINN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that we would get legislation through the House in this session to set it un. ~1 R. NEARY: But what procedure? How ~vill they be appointed or elected? HR. DINN: Well,through the legislative procedure, We have not got the draft bill or the draft legislation ready yet. But it will be through the Legislature. It will be done in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Lewisporte, followed by the han. gentleman for Bay of Islands, time permitting. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance, the President of Treasury Board.

And I ask the question as a result of an ad that I saw in yesterday's edition of The Globe and Mail with respect to a new top level fiscal officer for the Province. And I wonder if the minister could tell us what it is all about? What the position is all about? 1.0:132

June 1, 1977 Tape 3614 PK - 3 HR. SPEAKER: . The hon. Hinister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I do not know if that is the same position that the \ han. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) ~vas enquiring about a few weeks ago, that of the ADM, Assistant Deputy Minister, who has resigned. other gentleman ~vho is leaving us is the Director of Fiscal Policy. This may be the gentleman whom you are referring to, Mr. Brown, Joe Bro~who has been with us for about two years, He is from Calgary -and he is unfortunately going home, and so we have got to replace him. Ads have been placed in all of the various newspapers. MR.

I.JIUTE: A supplementary. "MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one supplementary. The MR. WHITE: The supplementary is sort of doubled-barrelled. I wonder if the minister could tell us whether or not the ADH's position has been filled, and whether or not the government will be advertising in local papers for those positions, particularly the one that I saw in The Globe and Mail because I have not seen it locally? :t-1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. ~1R. DOODY: To the best of my kno~vledge they all .are advertised in local papers, certainly the directive is to that effect.

Whether or not this actual one has, obviously I have not pursued all of the newspapers, but the policy is that they are advertised in the local papers. On the first part of your question, 1..0133

June 1, 1977 Tape No. 3615 NM - 1 MR. DOODY: the ADM position has not been filled. It has been narrowed down to about three people now and the Civil Service Commission and the Intervie\v Board are \vorking on which of these three will be most acceptable. '!-ffi.. SPEAKER: A final question, the hon. gentleman for Bay of Islands. MR.. WOODRmv: Mr. Speaker, I informed my han. colleague, the ~nister of Tourism, that I would ask him this question.

In view of the fact that our provincial parks are overcrowded and the people are encouraged by the Department of Tourism to build private parks, ifrbuild 1 is the proper word to use here, would the bon. minister tell the House if any loans or grants are available or will be available for this purpose? HR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: _ ~f this kind ' no subhead in assistance. The hon. Minister of Tourism. Mr. Speaker, we are very anxious to see develo~ment take place.

There is no programme at the moment,and my estimates at the moment,to provide any financial During debate on the estimates I indicated that ue are negotiating with the federal government, with DREE, for an agreement and we would hope that if we are successful in reaching a successful conclusion in those negotiations that an agreement might have some kind of programm~y we can provide some assistance. Certainly it is our desire. We do not have anything at this moment. We are anxious to see something like that happen and we are working towards that end. 10134

June 1, 1977 MR.. SPEAKER: MR.. MARSHALL : 1-f.r. Speaker. Tape No. 3615 ORDERS OF THE DAY: It being Private Members' Day, motion 7. The hon. member for St. John's East. I am looking at a different Order Paper, The purpose of putting on this motion, Mr.

Speaker­ and I will read it in a moment because it has been on for a long time~ it has not been before the House though- is NM- 2 really to serve as an annual reminder and request of the government to bring in compulsory legislation requiring pension plans to be provided by private businesses for their employees. ~ow over the past two or three years I have mentioned this and had hoped perhaps to have seen this type of legislation come before the House for consideration,and unfortunately it has not as yet.

Now perhaps first of all I could just read the resolution to refresh the House's mind as to what exactly is involved in it.

First of all it says that, "This Province is without legislation compelling private enterprise to provide pensions for employees." Then it goes on to say, that, "There had been many people who after working for many years have found themselves at the end of the years retired or discharged from places of employment without the benefits of adequate or in many cases any pension at all." And it goes on to say that, "This is obviously a hardship to many,persons being retired at the end of their productive years without the right to the pension." And the operative part of the resolution says that, "This House ur~es the government to take immediate steps to introduce legislation compelling employers to provide adequate compulsory pension plans for employees,such plans to apply to the broadest possible categories of enterprises and employees and to have the 1.01.35

June l, 1977 Tape :'To. 3615 }!R. 't-!ARSBALL : 'maximum range of portability feasible." Now this resolution - I cannot think of any more important legislation that could be brought into this House - is aimed to remedy a very restressirtg and grevious ~~[ - 3 cir~umstance which has occurred fro.m time and again in the past in this Province and will occur again in the future unless steps are tru~en to protect these people, that is the employees in private businesses 10136 ..

June 1, 1977 Tape 3616 EC - 1 NR. MARSHALL: who work their lifetime and find themselves 'tvhen they are unable to ~vork either (

a) without any pension or (

b) with a pension 'toJhich is so minute that it is indescribable.

We know for instance that there are many instances of persons - and I do not single out Water Street for this purpose, but when you talk about employment for some reason or other your mind usually turns around to the situation on Water Street - there are many people who have worked for many years downtown for various firms and retail trades who in the past have found themselves working thirty or forty . or forty-five years and have found themselves at the end of that period of time in effect laid off without a pension or put out with a pension which is so inadequate that it is, you know, like $20 and $30 and $40 a month, and it might have reference to pay scales going back into the 1930's or the 1940's.

And even at that the minuscule pensions that are provided for these people depend upon the benevolence of the employer. It depends upon the continued occupation, the con­ tinuance in business of the company employing them. It depends upon the gratuitousness of the employer. And I do not think that this situation ought to pertain. On the other hand,there are many other firms who employ persons in the same category who do provide adequate pension plans. And certainly it would appear to be quite unfair that one class of business should pr~vide it - where one business provides it and another does not.

I have known instances here~ ~nd I think . we ·all have, even of cases where a firm paid in good faith retired persons who had worked there for a long period of time - employees - put them out on pension and found that due to business reverses they could not continue to pay the pension and actually had to cut the pension off. I know of an individual one individual particularly~ of course I will not mention names here - one individual ,.,ho worked \vith a firm for forty or forty-five years, and he received a pension and went to live on the outskirts of the city of St. John's. 1.0137

JlUle 1, 1977 Tape 3616 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: And he was paid this pension for two or three years and then he received a letter from the employer stating that 'Very, very sorry, but due to circumstances beyond the employer's control the pension could no longer be paid.' And that individual, that particular individual- and he was not the only one in that business; there were a large number of them - was unfortunately cast upon really the welfare of his own family. He had to actually pick up and move away with his daughter. What he was looking forward to in his years of retirement was no longer possible.

And certainly one does not need to go into the details one can certainly imagine what kind of a traumatir experience that was to the individual concerned. Now I say this not by way of casting and heaping blame upon the company concerned or the employer concerned - and it was not just one company, there were . others as well - because at the particular tiine there were certain business reversals; mainland companies came in, there was more competition, they had to make attempts to look after the people who were then in their employ - nothing they could do about it, just economically they could not do it.

But I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that particular individual, those groups of individuals should not be in that particular position. What should happen is there should be a pension plan to 1.0138

June 1 1977 ' Tape no. 3617 Page 1 - ms ~1r. Marshall. which the individual, the employee,and the employer, will contribute an equal amount; that this money is not to be held either by the empl?yer or the employee, and it is not to be within their control, but it has to be paid into a third party, has to be paid into a trust company, a life insurance company or any of the other agencies which provide for the investments of funds, the provisions of annuities and the provisions of pensions over a period of time.

Because if that were done what would have happened is that the employee who ~"as pensioned at the time Hould not be cast upon the mercies of the company. His welfare would not depend upon the continued success of the business of the company.

His welfare would not dependent upon the gratuitous payments by the directors of the company, but he ~~uld have an absolute right to that pension, it would be protected insofar as any pension could possibly be protected, and he would have the security of knowing that in his final years he would get a just return and be able to enjoy the benefits of a pension in the same way as a person who had been pensioned from the public service, say, or from a company which in fact maintains this type of pension. He would not go through the agony that these people 'vent through years ago.

Neither, I suggest in all fairness,would . the employer at the time who had to take this step go through the agony of having to take it, because it was not at that particular time done, I know, TNfth any particular belief or any particular intent or desire to hurt the employees or any lack of recognition of responsibility of the employer to provide for the employees in their_years of retirement. But it was purely and simply done as a matter of necessity that that business could not continue to bear the heavy amount of liability that was cast upon it by having to pay out these pensions.

So that is the situation that this particular act is aimed at. And I am not asking either, Mr. Speaker, for something which is unknown, which has not happened before. Some seventy-five per cent 10139

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3617 Page 2 - ms ~!r. Marshall. of Canadian citizens are protected by acts which· are somewhat similar. The Province of Ontario has a Pension Benefits Act. The Province of Alberta and Saskatchewan also have these particular acts and also the Province of Quebec. All of these acts are fairly uniform and actually people can transfer from one province to the other, from one place of employment in the province to another and enjoy the benefit. Now what has got to happen, l1r.

Speaker, is, as I say, there has to be legislation brought in as soon as possible in this Province to provide for compulsory pension plans in private industries. These plans have to be paid fa~ It is not a case of the government having to pay for it. It is the case of the employer pays part of it and the employee pays part of it. The monies are taken, and they are put outsiCe the control of both of the parties, and they are there for against the time when that person retires and that person then will be assured and have the security of a continuing pension.

I have certain material here on this particular resolution relating to pension plans as there are certain other aspects that ought to be included in the proposed act. For instance, there aught to be ~.;hat is called an actuarial evaluation of the soundness of the pension plan itself.

And this would not only apply to the pension plans being brought in by virtue of the legislation instituting the cornpulsoriness of the plan, but it would apply to all pension plans, because I think it is a matter of concern for the state to see that the individuals concerned are not resting on false hope in the security of having their pensions.

And the monies that are paid in should not be invested in speculative investments, and thereby risking a complete if not absolute depreciation of the capital of the funds so that the pension as envisaged would not be able to be applied; but there ought to be in this Province a machinery whereby there is an evaluation of the soundness of the pension plans themselves. The pension plans, the compulsory plans that are brought in, as the resolution indicates should extend to the broadest body of persons 10140

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3617 Page 3 - lti S that you can possibly have, the broadest body of description of ~ployees. Now in Ontario,which was the first Province to bring in

an act of this nature, the Pensions Benefit Act -in 1962, 1963 that act was brought in - and it had a provision requiring employers with fifteen or more employees to set up and maintain a mi~imum standard pension plan. Subsequently, "that particular provision was eliminated in favour of creat_ing a plan that had complete and absolute portability and, you know, other stringent regulations. But that is one of the ideas that th:is resolution connotes that it should apply to the broadest possible categories 1014:1

June 1, 1977, Tape 3618, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: of employees, that there ought to be inspection of the plans. The plan should come into effect,as most of these do, after a person has been in employment for six months. The plan should provide that after a person has been in the employ of a company for a period of ten years and reaches the age of forty-five, that the plan itself is what they call vested.

In other words, the contributions are locked in and then when he reaches the age of retirement, even though he leaves his employment, that he will be able to get a pension at that particular time based on the amount of the reciprocal contributions. The legislation should also provide the plan be portable; that if a citizen goes from A to job B that he should be able to take that particular pension with him. In other words, it should not depend upon his continued employment in the firm that he is in at the particular time. This is what we are aiming for, ~r. Chairman.

I am not going to speak for any length of time on this because, as I say, this resolution is brouqht before this House, really, to serve as a way of urging the government to bring in this legislation, to remind them that it has been discussed in this House and there were sentiments passed that it was a good idea~and to express the fervent hope that the pension legislation would be brought in at the earliest possible moment.

Because I know and we all know that there are many people now in this Province who have been employed by businesses, who have been retired either with no pension or with a pittance of a pension, who, if they receive anything at all recieve it by way of gratuity from their employers whose security is linked with the fortunes of the business with which they have been employed over a period of time, who are subjected to the agonies, and this is all you ~0142

June 1, 1977, Tape 3613, Page 2 -- apb i1R. r·1ARSH.l\LL: can call it, the complete agonies of not having any security whatsoever in their age of retirement. I think that that is a social evil that has to be remedied, and the only way it can be remedied is by this Legislature taking an introducing and passing the appropriate legislation. It is also, 11r. Speaker, unfair, as I say, for one class of business or one company to maintain a plan and another company not to maintain a plan, because it is really unfair competition.

In fact there are many firms in this Province now who are maintaining plans,and adequate plans, for the provision of pensions, and others that are not. The others that are not are in competition with them and that in itself is unfair. ~low I realize, ~1r. Speaker, that in the present economic situation you cannot always just rush in and bring in legislation without determining its consequences. But I would suggest, i'1 r. Speaker, that the consequences of bringing in legislation of this nature can only be beneficial, that it ought to be phased in as quickly as possible.

I know regard has to be taken to the economic consequences on the economy but I cannot see :10:143

June 1,1977 Tape 3619 - Afternoon AH-1 MR. XARSHALL: how , balancing ~vhatever detrimental consequences there may be against the social benefits, how anyone can come in with other than a ringingly affirmative "Ave 11 to this type of legislation. I am not prouosing something which is really an airy - fairyidea that has not been done before. Governments are wont .from time to time to ask~n~ they have this in other provinces ? Why they have to make that reauest from time to time I do no know 7but I suppose it is for their mm security.

But the answer to it in this case is yes, seventy-five per cent of Canadians, approximatelv seventy-five per cent of Canadians,are protected by pension legislation of the type advocated here and it most certainly should be done.

As I say then in conclusion,I would hope that the government - and if the government does not next year, I ~vill myself bring in a private memher 1 s bill in the hopes of really pressing the matter because I think it is an urgent one , it is a matter of grave urgency,and the longer it is put off the gr~ater the agony and the misery to people in the years to come; that I will bring in a bill myself,but really it is the job of the government to bring in legislation of this nature and I hope they will. So I ask then, Mr.

Speaker, for the support of all members of the House to this resolution TV'hich urges the government to take immediate steps to introduce legislation compelling employers to provide adequate, compulsorv- in other words, compulsory pension plans,to the categories provided. It is a condition of their continuing business in this Province that thev carry this pension plan for employees, sucn plans to apply to the broadest possible categories of enterprises and employees and to have the maximum range of portability feasible.

It is only,as I say,by passing this legislation that we can redress the agonies that have been experienced by a large ~ody of peoole over the years and it is only by passing 1.0144

June 1,1977 Tape 3619 - Afternoon AH-2 ~- MARSHALL: legislation like this that \ve can give security to a large body of people who have worked for an employer or ~ _ -· set of employers for a long number of years and are entitled ~Then they come to the age of retirement to the security of pension benefits kindred and similar to their associates who happen to be· employed in other companies \vhich maintain these pension plans. \ MR. SHALL WOOD : Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for Twillingate. HR.

SHALLHOOD: I will vote for this resolution and I rise ON really to congratulate the hon., and learned member for St. John's East on his action in bringing this resolution before the House. His action in this matter is an excellent illustration of what is known in English political history as Tory democracy. And it was the Liberal ?arty of the ~nited ~ingrlon that fathered virtually all of the social reforms that :Sn~land has known; virtually all~ but not all.

There were reforms introduced into parliament and adopted by narliament, introduced by Tory ·governments in the United Kingdom,particularly and especially under the leadershin and the inspiration of the great Benjamin Disraeli, Lord Beaconsfield. They \vere known as· the Tory democrats.

Lord Randolph Churchill was one of them, the father of the great Sir Winston Churchill,and they were others, so that it is not true to say that all social reform brought into the parliament of the United Kingdom or brought into the parliament of Canada or brought into the legislature of ~ewfoundland has been brought by Liberals. }fost of it, nearly all of it, yes, but not all.

And today \ve have a very good example of an hon. member of this House \vhose record, \vhose ideology, \vhose philosopliy, whose frame of mind, \vhose habits and whose precedence all indicate that he is Conservative , not necessarily Tory but pretty Conservative. So when an hon.member who is so conservative in most matters brings this kind of reform before the House~it deserves attention and he deserves the congratulations of every :101.45

June 1,1977 Tape 3619 - Afternoon AF.- 3 MR.. SNALUlOOD : thinking hon. member. I know that he does not mean the House to adopt the principle that if you ~-rork a month or a year with some firm you should thereby become entitled to a pension at pension age. I know that he must surely mean.,as he rather indicates in the

preamble to the resolution,that what is intended is that if a man or woman has worked faithfully for a substantial 1.0:146

June 1, 1977 Tape 3620 EC - 1 MR. SMALUJ'OOD: period of time for a private employer then that employee, as in the case of a public employee, one employed by the government or any kind of elected authority~ought to be entitled to a pension.

In other words~it seems to me that what the hon. gentle- man is suggesting is that part of the income of an employee of a private employer ought to be a prospective pension when he reaches pensionable age, and that private industry, private enterprise establishments - commercial companies, industrial companies, financial companies-ought to be req~ired by law in a civilized country~ and one might even say in a Christian country, required by law to set aside as part of the running expense of the business, not merely the wages or salary paid week to week or month to month to the employee, but an amount over and above that to provide for a pension for that employee when the employee has served a given number of years and reaches pension age.

If the number of years with a given concern be not quite enough then the years served with some other company may be added. That is what I think the hon. member means by portability. If I work for five years with a firm and eight years with another and ten with another and so on until I reach pension age then all these years are put together. Now I do not know who would pay the pension. The resolution - MR. NEARY: That is a good question. 1-!R. Si:-1ALL\vOOD: Well, the resolution does not indicate that, but perhaps there could easily be set up a fund just as you have an unemployment insurance fund. HR.

MARSHALL: If the hon. gentleman would yield a moment. HR. SMALUVOOD: Yes, and I will be anxious to hear this from the han. member if he would let me first pose the problem. And then having posed it I will be happy to hear the hon. member's answer~ his I solution. Just as today with regard to unemployment insurance a man can work a year with one company and ten with another and six months with another and eighteen years with another and then finding him- self unemployed can resort to the unemployment insurance fund, a fund 1.0147

June 1, 1977 Tape 3620 EC - 2 MR. Siv'..ALLWOOD: natianally administered and built up by contributions from the Government of Canada, from the employers and from the employees. So it really does not matter who was the last employer, the fund takes care of him. And similarly I would imagine there could be a fund created, maintained and operat .ed for the purpose of prdviding a pension to the pe.rson after he has served the requisite number of years and reached pensianable age. Now that is the problem. Where would the money come from to pay a pension 10148

June 1, 1977 Tape 3621 PK - 1 :rr. Smalhv-ood: at pension age to a person ~vho has worked 'tvith a number and variety of companies. And if the han. member can give us an explanation of that I am sure tl:.e House will be pleased. So I ~.vill relinquish my place merely for the purpose of hearing the explanation. HR. HAF..SF.ALL : Thank you, ~·1r. Speaker, and the han. member for Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood). Hhat ~vould happen would be this money the employer and the employee 'tvould be paid into a fund, like company and insurance company,in the same \vay as pension funds are paid now.

And these contributions tvould be ivhat we call after they get a certain period of time in, locked in; in other -v10rds, they could not be taken out of that fund but if he ivent to another company ':·lhere there was a similarly arproved fund, the funds could perhaps be transferred to that other fund, that other trust company, that other insurance company or what have you.

And in ansHer to the question, the thing I thought I made clear - I was not explanatory enough -v;hen I was speaking ,obviously - when I said it should be beyond the control of the employer and the ei'I'.ployee to be paid in to the trust company and as a part of their duties they ~vould be the ones that would pay out from the earnings and the income on the fund to the employee. So it ivould not in any Hay depend upon the fortunes of the company or any control at all of the company over that employment - ~ffi . NEARY: Is the han. member serious or just pulling our leg? ~.fR.

HARSHALL: No,that is the way it would work. ;fR. SMALLHOOD: I thank the han. member and learned gentleman from St. John's East (Hr. Harshall). Perhaps this ivould Hark, perhaps ~.Jith a lot of careful adjustment and care it could be made to work. It ~vould seem to me at first flush, without going into the matter in any detail~that a national fund to Hhich all employers-whether they employ one, two or six persons, or 600 or 6,000 or 30,000-would contribute. So that what you would have 't·muld be a national fund, nationally administered and portable, applicable in the ten provinces 1..0149

June 1, 1977 Tape 3621 PK - 2 Hr. Smallwood: into t..;rhich every employer, large and small and medium would pay annually as no~1 they pay for unemployment insurance. After all, Hr. Speaker, I think what the;hon. gentleman has in mind is insurance, that there ought to be a fund. There was a time when l·lorkman '.s Compensation had no fund. There was no fund. If you worked for an employer and you got killed or injured there was no fund which would pay you any kind of compensation.

You could go in court, you could sue your employer or,if you were killed in his employ1 your wife, your ,..;ridow, your dependent could sue the ernoloyer, but it was up to get you yourself to get the money from the empl~yer. When I took over the administration of the new Province I brought legislation in creating a fund into which every employer paid regularly at certain rates that were laid down by law, the rates depending on the degree of risk in the kind of employment.

If you were working in a printing estE-blishment you ~..;rere not under such risk as you would be in certain other employments, and so the rates varied according to the degree of danger in the employment, and the payments out of the fund depended in no deg~ee on the will or the desire or the wishes of the private employer. All the private employer had to do was to pay into the fund, and his concern ended there just as it ends also '"hen he pays into the unemployment insurance fund which is an insurance fund just as workmen's compensation is an insurance fund.

I would assume that the best thing would be-if we could not have it nationally across Canada which '"ould be the best thing, but which could only be done by the Parliament of Canada--if it is to be a purely' provincially thing then it has to be across the board within the Province and one fund exist into which every employer of any number, from one up, ,.TOuld pay regularly every week \ that that person or those persons tvas or t.;ere 101.50

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3622 Page 1 - ms Hr. Smallwood. employed by that employer, and they would have nothing to do with the payment of the pension. That would be the function of the fund which could be administered by a trust company, as the hon. gentla~an suggests, or by a state appointed board such as the Workmen's Compensation Board 9 or as national insurance on the national scale. I would be interested to hear the han. gentleman's reaction to that thought. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, there is nobody here in this Chamber at this moment who is going to vote against this resolution.

It is a resolution asking the government to introduce it immediately. They are not going to introduce it immediately. It is getting too late in the session. But if we adopt it as our feeling that it ought to be done, I have no doubt that the government in due course will be guided by our opinion. They would be pretty short-sighted if they did not. It will not cost the government anything. It ~vill not cost the Treasury anything, and it will be a piece of social justice, a piece of good solid old-fashioned Liberalism brought in by a Tory democrat.

And the government, which is alleged to be Tory and which in my opinion is not Tory, I think that the government are nondescript. I think that perhaps all political parties in Newfoundland today are more or less nondescript, and I do not draw a sharp distinction. I wish I could. I wish I could say, There are the Tories and here are the Liberals. I wish I could say, but honestly I could not say i~ with a feeling that I was honest in doing it, that I was intellectually honest. I ~ish these distinctions could still be drawn. I wish that the people of Newfoundland would not need to have it pointed out to them.

I wish they would recognize instantly who is a Liberal and who is a Tory. Now the hon. gentleman from St. John's East (1trr. Y..a.rshall) is perhaps one of the only two Tories -genuine, honest to God Tories-there are over on that side of the House. The other one is from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter). His neighbour is, I believe, genuinely a Tory. 10151

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3622 Page 2 - ms HR.. PECKFORD : Are we further from the left than the han. gentlemen on the other side? ~fR. NEA...'q_Y: Yes. NR. SHALLWOOD: More to the left? MR. PECKFORD: Yes. HR. SHA.LLIJOOD: When it comes to socialism and nationalism and nationalization and communism, yes. The government over there are far more communistic, far more socialistic than the party over here. After all,it was they who nationalized Churchill Falls. We built it. They nationalized it. We built or caused the building of the great paper mill. They nationalized it. He helped the building of the plant in Eurgeo.

They nationalized it. They are far more to the left than the party here on this side. I do not know whether they should be proud of that. And, Hr. Speaker, I do not know if Your Honour 'rould consider that I have been wandering a little aside from the main topic so admirably introduced by the hon. and learned member for St. John's East (Nr. ~1arshall) for whom on times I have profound respect and admiration, and on times quite a contrary feeling as I am sure must be his experience as well.

I must confess that the number of times \vhen he has seemed to be rather incapable of restraining his admiration for me, the number of times has been strictly limited, but there have been many times when like his colleague from St. John's North he had no difficulty at all in showing the other kind of sentiment. Anyway I congratulate him. I am going to vote for this. I hope that everyone here will vote for it. It is voting in principle. That is all we can do here todav. We are not the government.

The government can bring the legislation in, and in due time no doubt they will, but we can-support it in principle by voting for this }fR. SPEAKER: ~1R. NEARY: resolution. ----\-- The hon. membe~ for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, now that the mutal admiration society for today, Sir, has concluded its meeting, I would like to have a few words on this resolution and probab~y get down to brass tacks.

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3622 Page 3 - ms HR. Neary. And the han. gentleman in winding down his remarks there referred to the administration as being more to the left than han. gentlemen who sit on this sit on this side, and I must say that I was rather impressed with these words, Sir, coming off the lips of a gentlemen who spent several weeks down in Cuba waiting for Fidel. :MR. SMALLWOOD: Hell, I came away. I did not stay. MR. ~TEARY: That is right. MR. DOODY: You turned left and visited the Great T,.J'all. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to knock the resolution.

I can see that it would be a very, very difficult plan indeed to put into effect. As a matter of fact I am amazed, Mr. Speaker, I am amazed that the han. gentlemen who just took his seat, who was praising up the han. gentleman for bringing in this great reform which he compared to some of the great Liberal reforms of Canada, that the han. gentleman forgot to mention the Canada Pension Plan. The Canada Pension Plan does precisely what 1.()1.53

June 1, 1977 Tape 3623 EC - 1 :HR. NEARY: the hon. gentleman was talking about. The Canada Pension Plan gives everybody a pension across Canada everybody. HR. SMALLWOOD: 'HR. NEARY: Yes, I am getting $80 a month. The hon. gentleman is getting $80 a month- and completely overlooked the fact that what the han. gentleman is asking for in this resolution as far as the private sector is concerned has already been done and implemented by the Liberal government up in Ottawa. the Liberal government of Canada. HR. SMALLWOOD: Brother Trudeau. }'!R. NEARY: No, not brother Trudeau, It was done - HR.

SHALLWOOD: Brother Pearson. MR. NEARY: Brother Pearson. MR. DOODY: He needs his privacy. HR. NEARY: But, Mr. Speaker, this resolution raises the whole matter of pensions. And, !1r. Speaker, every magazine, every news­ paper that I have read across North America for the last year or so now - every one - every magazine, every newspaper, they have a theme for the last year involving two words. You will find it in practically every newspaper. I am surprised my han. friend has not seen it, who is so well read, better read than I am,although my father used to read everything he could lay his hands on.

I read a fair amount of things myself. I am not a heavy reader, but I read the newspapers and magazines~ I get them off the newsstands. MR. SMALU100D: The hen. member must realize that if that is all he reads, the newspapers and magazines, he is one of the great illiterate ignoramuses of Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: am an illiterate ignoramus. MR. SMALLWOOD: :1-:IR. NEARY: I realize that, Sir. I realize it that I If the hen. member's reading is limited to But at least, Mr. Speaker, I can say this, that I think I am fairly well informed on what is going on in North America and in the world today. MR.

SMALUlOOD: And especially Newfoundland. 10154

June 1, 1977 Tape 3623 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: ~.J'ell, not only in Newfoundland because what goes on on the mainland of Canada and down in the United States usually goes on in Newfoundland. MR. SMALLWOOD: Ends up here. MR. NEARY: And two things that have been outstanding, that have stuck out over the last year - number one is productivity. Everybody but everybody 9 every administration, every government today, everybody in authority today~ business and industry, are talking about productivity, especially in Canada. MR. SMALLl.J'OOD: And rightly so. MR. NEARY: And rightly so.

And you will find that theme in practically - you will find feature articles written in huge numbers over the past year or so. And President Carter~ one of the first things that he did when he was installed as President of the United States, called labour and business and industry together to try to solve this problem of the work ethic ana productivity. And in Canada we have an even worse problem. We have the worst record of productivity in the industrialized world. And Prime Minister Trudeau and the Government of Canada have been struggling with that problem now for some time.

And I have suggested in this Province long ago, two years ago, that we establish a productivity council in this Province. So that is one theme, one word that has become common practically to all governments in North America and I suppose pretty well, in the free world. And if we do not do something about it ' in Canada we are going to price ourselves out of the market. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is the lack of it that is causing most of the inflation. MR. NEARY: The lack of productivity. And, Mr.

Speaker, the other thing that is starting to rear its ugly head, as the Minister of Finance is probably more aware than anybody in this han. House, is the matter of pensions and the problems that are going to be created five, ten, fifteen years from now by lack of actuarial - MR. DOODY: Soundness. HR. NEARY: - soundness of the pension plans that we have in Canada. 1.01.55

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3624 Page 1 - ms Mr. Neary: We have, Mr. Speaker, three levels of pensions in Canada at the present time. Well, we have four 1 actually. We have the private sector. And as my hon. friend points out in the resolution all of the private sector are not covered under pension plans. There are private pension plans.- But all business and industry is not covered, and in some cases the employees are at the mercy of the employer. But everybody today is guaranteed to get a pension.

I remember when my late father retired from DOSCO after working for twenty years - he was working on a farm before that - he worked with DOSCO for twenty years, he got a pension of $22.50. That was his pension. MR. S~ALLWOOD: A month? HR. NEARY: A month. Twenty-two dollars and fifty cents a month. And so I am well aware of the problem that my han. friend is trying to focus attention on, because there are retail clerks, people who work dmvntown who got $30 a month. Some got nothing. They were just given the golden handshake and put out to pasture and had to resort to welfare, had to resort to the dole.

I know what the problem is that my han. friend is trying to focus attention on. And it was big in my han. friend's district, out it is not a major problem today. It may be a bit of a problem. There are probably still a lot of employers - and I would submit, Sir, that all the big employers in this Province, like Bowaters, Price - I remember we had our own private pension plan when I lost my job in 1966 with DOSCO 1vhen the mine closed. They refunded me my pension plan money. HR. DOODY: ~1R. NEARY: Your share of it, but not their share. Not their share, no.

They gave me back, they refunded my share, plus compound interest, and that is 1vhere I got the do~vnpayment for the first house I bought in St. John's. Although it was a big problem a few years ago, my hon. friend seems to think that it is ~rill a major problem, and it could be. You may have a lot of employe -rs in downtown St. John 1 s who today have no private 'Pension 1.0156

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3624 Page 2 - ms Hr. Neary. plans. These pension plans, as the House knows, are contributory. They are funded by the employee contributing so much and the employer contributing so much. In some instances unions have managed to negotiate pension plans which are a little more generous where the employer contributes 100 per cent, but that is very rare indeed. So that is one level of pensions. The other level of pensions is the pensions in the public service, both in the Government of Canada and . the peorle in the Provincial Public Service.

And then you have the old age pension, and you have the guaranteed income supplement that my hen. friend made no reference to, two more great Liberal reforms, the old age pension, and the guaranteed income supplement. And then you have the Canada Pension Plan. So "tve have a variety of pension plans. At least from what I can read and from what I can hear and from what I can observe the soundest one of all is the pension plan, the privately funded pension plans. The pension plans in the private sector which are funded - MR. DOODY: Fully funded. MR.

NEARY: - fully funded are the only ones today - that are considered to be on a sound financial basis. They are the only ones. And people in authority are becoming very, very concerned about pension plans in the public service, whether it be the Provincial Public Service or in the Canadian Public Service pension plans, especially those that are not funded. They are becoming very concerned about them. Ana to add to the trouble. Sir. oeoole in authnritv are becoming very concerned about the Canada Pension Plan.

Now the Canada Pension Plan, as members know, was set up, I think, about eleven or twelve years ago - I do not kno~ a little over ten years ago, I believe. After ten years you were considered to have paid your maximum in the Canada Pension Plan. You get maximum benefits although you still contribute so that everybody was guaranteed a pension. And :101.57

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3624 Page 3 - ms Hr . ::ieary. everybody thought it was a bottomless pit. They were talking about reserves of $500 million, $1 billion, a couple of billion dollars . When it was introduced there was no thought, no thought at all of the Canada Pension Plan fund ever drying up, no thought at all. 10158

June 1, 1977 Tape 3625 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: It looked like a real pot of gold at the end of the rainbow with all kinds of money, As a matter of fact there was so much money going into the Canada Pension Plan that the Government of Canada, the Canada Pension Plan people,decided to loan, to give loans to the provinces and that is where a lot of the money that is being borrowed by this Province, by all the provinces come from the Canada Pension Plan. Now all of a sudden there has been a rude of wakening.

There was never any acturial study done, Sir, to see what the drain on the Canada Pension Plan would be over the next ten, fifteen or twenty years. And the real danger nmv, Sir, what people are afraid of, including the Government of Canada and the Canada Pension Plan people, what they are afraid of; Hr.

Speaker, that ten years or fifteen years from now not only will the fund, this huge $500 million fund, ~.;rill have had evalJorated, but money ~vill have to be taken from general revenue and put into the Canada Pension Plan fund to pay out pensions to the number of people that will be retiring at age sixty-five over the next ten or fifteen years. Does my han. friend realize that, the member who just spoke. MR.. S:M...ALLWOOD: Yes. HR. NEARY: Hy han. friend realizes that. HR. Sl'!ALLWOOD: I am just writing a piece on Liberalism for the Laurier Ball, ~R. NEARY: I see. HR.

S¥.ALLWOOD: so I am in complete agreement with every ~vord the hon. gentleman is uttering even vThen I do not hear him, and I hear every word of it. }!R. NEARY: lvell I just made vrhat I considered to be a very - it is the first time it has been made in this House ·-what I consider to be a very startling statement, and it is not original, MR. SMALLWOOD: Say it again. MR. NEARY: - I am not the author of it. My i:•an. friend may not realize it, my han. friend was Premier of this Province when the Canada 101.59

June 1, 1977 Tape 3625 PK - 2 Hr. Neary: Pension Plan was introduced by the Government of Canada ten or eleven or tHelve years. ago. At that time the people of Canada were lulled into a sense of security the .likes of which they had never known, that there would be so much money going into the Canada Pension Plan that it would never dry up. As a matter of fact, the Government of Canada decided to make loans to the provinces. My hon. friend will remember when the questions used to be asked by the Opposition, Where are you going to get the money?

My hon. friend used to say, We will borrow it from the Canada Pension Plan because they got barrels of it; it is running out of their ears. But does my han. friend know that ten to fifteen years from nm·7 that these reserves will have dried up and that money 'tvill have to, unless they do something about it, that money will have to be taken from general revenue and put into the Canada Pension Plan Fund. HR. SHALLWOOD: \•Jhich was done once, had to be done 'tvith the Unemployment Insurance Fund. HR.

NEARY: It had to be done more than once with the Unemployment Insurafrce Fund; it had to be done a number of times with the Unemployment Insurance Fund. And this could be a disaster, Sir, unless something is done about it, and it 'tvill be a disaster in this Province, rlr. Speaker, If the Hinister of Finance~ and the minister indicated it]I believe in his budget speech, unless this House, especially the minister, and I believe the minister is very conscious of it because, ~1r.

Speaker, Your Honour is probably aware that on two or three occasions recently the problem that arose in negotiations with various groups of negotiating with Treasury Board, the main problem with the teachers was pensions, the main problem with the Waterford Hospital strikers at the moment is pensions, and it is going to get worse. Because, Mr. Speaker, there is no relationship, there is no relationship between what is being contributed to the pension plans, and they are not funded, and what is being taken out.

There has never been a study done to see Hhat the drain 'tvill be on the plans five, ten, fifteen years from 10160

June 1, 1977 Tape 3625 PK - 3 Mr. Nearv: ~·fuereas now the minister may be a little bit ahead of the game, there may be more revenue coming in then is being paid out, that will eventually come to an end, and it will come to an end as far as the Canada fension Plan is concerned. And if something is not done about it, and it is going to be a big issue in the future~there is going to be a disaster.If they have to start taking money out of the general revenue to pay pensions-if this Province has to do it, if the Government of Canada has to do it- it is going to be a sorry day.

And the young people, the generation that is coming behind us Hill be the ones that will be taxed to the hilt to pay for our stupidy and to pay for our blunder. vJe have a chance to do something about it now, Sir~ In this Province' we ha~e to have an actuarial study done as quickly as possible, at an early date as possible as far as I am concerned, to see where we stand concerning the pension plan for the public service in this Province and how ~ve can go about funding it- if ~;re can fund it. Maybe it is too rich for our blood nm.;r, maybe it is impossible to fund it. MR.

DOODY: It is partially funded. ~ffi.. ;iliARY: It is partially funded. HR. DOODY: I ~vill tell you in a few minutes. l·fR. NEARY: ~Jell I would certainly like to hear the minister's comments on this matter, Sir, because hen. gentlemen may not be aware, but they ~vill be aware over the next f ev1 years, 10161.

June 1, 1977, Tape 3626, Page 1 -- apb r·!R. NEARY: that the big issue, the big controversy, the big problem for the future will be pensions. Nobody has ever stopped to realize the number of people that will be retiring over the next ten or fifteen years. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, that there was never a study done before the Canada Pension Plan was implemented? That it was a political decision, an idea that was brought up, that was thought to be good for the Canadian people.

A great Liberal reform and no actuarial study done to see if it was sound, how long it could operate in the black before it would become a drain on the public treasury. Does my han. friend realize that? But it was done. :··~R. Si1ALU!OOD: I did not at the tir.1e, no. ~1R. NEARY: It was done. They still have time to do something about it, fortunately. But if something is not done quickly then I am afraid we are going to be in trouble, that we are going to mortgage the generations coming behind us and th~~- w ill pay throuah the nose. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that not the basis of the trouble at the Waterford? :-~R.

NEARY: Yes, and it was the trouble with the teachers. And there is going to be trouble with the public service. And it is going to qet worse. It is going to keep cropping up, not only here in Newfoundland, but right across the whole nation. So, Sir, not only do we need the kind of legislation my han. friend is striving to bring in here, and I do not want to knock this, it is motherhood. I know what the gentleman is trying to do, focus attention on the problem that he has orobably in his own district, trying to get a little - 1..01.62

June 1, 1977, Tape 3626, Page 2 -- aob i·l R • S !1 A L LV/ 0 0 0 : He is trying as a Tory to win over the Liberals of St. John•s East. t1R. NEARY: - trying to get a little political mileage and you cannot - MR. WOODRm\1: ~~R. N E.ll.RY: Both of you _would be hard employers. The han. gentleman is tryinq to get a little political mileage and you cannot blame the han. gentleman for that. It is not the first time the han. gentleman brought this resolution in. I believe this is the second time. This may be the first time it was debated. I am not sure if we got to debate it before or not.

But the han. gentleman•s heart is in the right place. He is well intentioned, but it would be a real jungle to try to bring in a piece of leqislation to compel all employers in this Province to have a private pension plan with their employees. It would cut across the trade union movement, it would cut across just about every jurisdiction that you could name. It would be a jungle. It would be almost impossible to administer. The han. gentleman says, No. The han. gentleman may be - r1R. HOOOROH: It would help the ordinary people in Newfoundland. 1,1 R • N EAR Y : What would help the ordinary people? ~!

R • \·J 0 0 D R Ot·J : What he is talking about. And I would like to recall the expression The vlater Street Ganq. They should have brought it in years ago. ~~R. SnALL\•1000: t~hat did they ever bring in? ~1 R • ~·1 0 0 DR 0 1·1 : ~~at h i n g . i-1 R • S n A L U~ 0 0 D : i'·1R. NEARY: Street Gang, it is the ~1R • S ~1 A L U!O 0 0 : We know what they took out. r-.1r. Speaker, it is the ~·Jater what? - The Waffle Iron- The Waffle Iron Merchants. 1.01.63

June 1, 1977, Tape 3626, Page 3 -- apb r-1 R. NEARY: - the \ .. J a ffl e Iron Merchants - r1 R. DOODY: The Rags I r~erchants. f1R. NEARY: Yes - what do you call them? - i'1 R. DOODY: The Rags r~ e r c h an t s . :·1R. NEARY: - the Rags ~1erchants that my - :-1 R. S~MLUIOOD: Ah , that is enough of that. That is enough of that now. r1R. NE.A.RY: - han. friend is getting at. That is what my han. friend is getttng at and I cannot say that I blame him. Because - MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). ~1 R. NEARY: No? i·1 R . DOODY: Or exercise books. ~1 R.

NEARY: t·1y han. friend is trying to get at the Wate~ Street Gang that exploited the workers. If they gave them a pension at all it was a very small pension. Ten, fifteen, twenty dollars a month, the golden handshake, good bye! So long! You were a nice employee! Good bye! So long! He will see you! But all that is - Sometimes they gave them a watch too. 1'1R. NEARY: Hell, yes, that is right. Is that not the golden handshake? Rags r··1 R . S t·1 A L L\~ 0 0 D : The watch was not always golden. i·1 R . N E A R Y : N o , s om e t i m e s t h e \'I a t c h w a s a cheap imitation.

They would say, \>Jell, we presented so i·1 R • S r•l A L UJO 0 D : r-1 R. NEARY : it to So-and-So That is right. T h e y w o u 1 d s a y , ~1 e 1 1 , vt e p r e s e n t And you would have your picture taken. I can see it now, Sir. As a matter of fact, they used to do it with DOSCO when I first went to work in 1945, when I first went on the payroll of DOSCO. They had 1.01.64 -

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3627 Page 1 - ms Mr. Neary. no pension plan, no pension plan for their employees.

And every time some poor old fellow retired after 1:1·renty-five or thirty years or thirty-five years of service -bent over, a~thritis, emphysema, just able to get along- they would take him in, the manager would appear on the scene, probably the first time for the year, and they would have a few words and a few sandwiches and a cup of tea, and they would present him with a watch, and they ~.;ould put a thirty-five or forty year pin in the lapel of his coat, and he would get up and make a speech and say, what a wonderful worker he was and what a great man he was, a great family man, a ~.;onderful producer, he produced for his country and then they would send him off, and he \vould have to go down to the dole office and get dole the next day.

NR. CAi'lliiNG: MR. NEARY: Go home and starve to death. That·is right. And I have great sympathy for the people that are victims of these employers who would exploit them. But I can see that there are a lot of problems. And my han. friend says, \.J'ell, what about the poor people? The Government of Canada have tried to cure that with the Canada Pension Plan. I do not know if my han. riend has been here - ~-fR. ::m.ETT : ~-fR • NE..<\RY : They are not making a very good job. The Government of Canada,my hon. friend savs,is not making a very good job.

Well my han. friend should remember that it was the Government of Canada that brought in the old age pension. Okay? .A!.~ H('N. ME..~ER: Right. HR. NEARY: It was the Government of Canada that brought in the guaranteed income supplement. HR. S¥.ALLWOOD: MR. UEARY: The Liberal Government. The Liberal Government. 10165

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3627 Page 2 - ms ~-fR. NEARY: And it \vas the Liberal Government of Canada that brought in the Canada Pension Plan. HR. SMALLWOOD: MR. NEARY: universal. MR. HOODROH: the same thing. HR. NEARY: thing. MR. HOODROW: MR. NEARY: HR. DOODY: And unemployment insurance. That is universal. All three plans are Any other government would have done Any other government did not do the same If they had in power they would have. These three plans, Sir, are universal. If they get their way now they will bring in a guaranteed annual income and sink the nation right under water. ~ffi.

NEARY: No, they will not. Now therel That is Toryism. That is Toryism, Sir. If the Government of Canada had any sense - :1R. SM.t...LUIOOD : It is probably true. MR. NEARY: - if the Government of Canada had any sense what they would do is bring in the guaranteed annual income and link it to the Gross National Product. MR. SMALLWOOD:. MR. NEARY: too quickly. MR. DOODY: Yes, that would make sense. Ah, my friend, do not shoot it down Have you heard the hon.Minister of ~ublic Health and ~~elf are, -Mr. Lalonde - or whatever his name is mention anything about productivity~ MR. NEARY: No, I have not. MR.

DOODY: I have heard him talk about the guaranteed annual income to a certain extent, and I ran out of the room -.;vi th terror. rffi. NEARY: Your own Minister of Social Services went up to Ottawa and was one of the few ministers - I believe the only one, I am not quite sure now - was the only one - there may be one other­ who objected and would not participate in the guaranteed annual income. MR. BRETT: That is wrong. That is wrong. 1.01.66

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3627 Page 3 - ms MR. NEARY: Well, why does not the minister set me straight. How many provinces? l1R. DOODY: MR . NEARY: :!R . BRETT: MR. NEARY: They "tv-ere all against - This Province said no that I am sure of. We did not say, No. I do not know how many other provinces. MR. MR. DOODY: NEARY: This Province said.no to the financing procedures. This Province said, No. MR. BRETT: MR. NEA..._-q_y: NR. PECKFORD: MR. NEA..._-q_y: MR. BRETT: MR. NEARY: Energy may not realize annual income. MR. PECKFORD: not arguing that. They did not say, No. They did say, No. No, you are wrong again.

I am right there. No, you are not right. Hr. Speaker, the han. Hinister of Mines and it, but I am the godfather of the guaranteed You are the godfather of everything. I am MR.

NEARY: When I brought it before my colleagues in Cabinet - and I do not know if my han. friend remembers it or not, because every time I brought in a great Liberal reform in to Cabinet, a great social welfare reform in to Cabinet, there were three or four of my colleagues who would dance the jig, who would go up in the ceiling, who would say, take them all down the harbour and drown them, and it used to take me six months sometimes to get a very minor change in the department that I was representing. It took me - do you realize, Mr.

Speaker, it took me six months to get the name of the de~artment changed ~·7hich 1.vould not cost the taxpayers of this Province one red cent. And I believe I told the House how I accomplished it one night. I was talking to my han. friend here about it several times. I had three or four reforms that I wanted to bring in. I wanted to get rid of the voucher and pay people by cash, by cheque. I r.Yanted to change the name of the department, and I w·anted to bring in all kinds of other reforms, the only 1.0167

June 1, 1977 Tape no. 3627 Page 4 - !!l S }:_1r. Neary. reforms brought into that department since Confederation. And I kept after it and after it and after it, and I was getting frustrated and I was reaching the stage where I was saying that if I do not get thes.e reforms through then I am going to throw in the towel.

And one night I came into Confederation Building, and my hon. friend was in his office, but I did not know the gentleman was there at the time, and the security person came up to me and said, The Premier's daughter is looking for him, and they think something might have happened to him up in the office. Could you go up? Bo you have a key to get in? \"'ell, I ~vent up, went up in the private elevator, went in to the· 1..0168

June 1,1977 Tape 3628 - Afternoon AH-1 HR. NEARY: Cabinet room, went in and knocked on the door and my hon. friend was having a snooze, I woke him up and T.o7hen I ~voke him up he had on a dress shirt and he was in his shorts and he had a pair of suspenders on~I rernember,and his socks and I said - HR. SMALL~·JOOD: ~1R. NEARY: Do not go into such detail.

I said,"Your daughter is looking for you': He said, "Yes~' the hon. gentleman said,"Yes, she is ahvays looking for me~' So he said, "Come in'; and I ~vent in and while the hon gentleman ~vas getting dressed to go out to a }·fasonic degree ,I think it was, the hon. gentleman was goint out to, he was trying to get all his degrees in one year or a couple of years and he '\'.o7as getting the thirty-second or thirty-third that night if I - HR. S~.ALU700D : Thirty-second HR.

NEARY: Thirty-second that night,and he said "How are things going in the department?" And I said~ ''Hell they are going fairly well, Sir, exceot that I am getting frustrated trying to get these reforms through Cabinet!' "What reforms?" he said.,and I told the hon.gentleman about them about ten times before that. I outlined them and he said,"These are great Liberal reforms.

Bring them up at the next Cabinet meeting~' Hell I brought them up and I said, "Hell nmv you better be prepared because So-and-So is going to Eiance a jig, So-and-So is going to go off his head, So-and-So is going to go out of his mind, So-and-Sois going to suggest they are all going to be shot." He said, "That is all right let me handle it:' I brought in my proposal and thanks to my 1-!on. friend bet~veen the t'1;vO of us we managed to get it through despite the opposition that morning ,and we almost started a third Horld T.\Tar. HR.

DOODY: I£ I can catch Premier Hoores in his shorts I can get the budget balanced. 10169

June 1,1977 Tape 3628 - Afternoon AH-2 HR. }l'EARY: The moral of that story, Sir, is if you wanted to get anything done when the hon.gentleman was Premier you had to catch him with his pants do~·m. But anY'N'ay, Mr. Speaker, 'l'rith all due respects, Sir, the gentleman's heart is in the right place and I am not going to knock him, I am all for it. But I am going to say this, Sir, that ~ve should during this debate take a few moments to ponder over this matter of the oroblems that are arising with all the pension plans especially in the public service across this nation. It is virtually impossible, Mr.

Speru<er, for the government of Canada to even think about at this moment reducing the old age pension age from sixty-five to sixty. ~at would bankrupt the Canada Pension Plan overnight and that is ~vhy they have not done it as much as they Hould like to do it and as much as the Trade :Inion Hovement and the Canadian Labour Congress and everybody else would like to lower the pension age so that it \•TOuld allmv young people to get into the emnloyment market. it is virtually imoossible to do it, Sir, because if they did they ivould l:>ankrupt the Canada Pension Plan overnight. Your Ponour, my time is up.

I wish I had more time to talk about it hut I believe I have made the point and I look for;vard to hearing from r.rhP.t the Minister of Finance has to say about this ~1R • SPEAY..ER: pensions. ~ Ron. "t:!iniste ~ of Finance. whole matter of ~ DOODY· Mr Speaker, I just cannot resist the invitation ~fr~m the ~on . member·. . The resolution that the bon, member for St . John's East has introduced to the House, Your Honour, is obviously a very v1ell thought out resolution and one v7hich has great social benefit. I can see that there are many people in the Province particularly, as has been mentioned,in the St.

John's area who would undoubtedly benefit from such a plan. It does occur to me,and I thin~ that " the hon.member from LaPoile has touched on it,but those people who :10170

June 1,1977 Tape 3628 - Afternoon AR-3 MR. DOODY: would be in the greatest position to benefit from it would be in the smaller employment units which may make it that much more difficult to implement. But since govert:tment is so deeply involved into the books and records of all the various companies and bull's-eye shops and stores and so on around the Provin .ce now I guess one more auditor coming in with a little black bag and another set of regulations is not going to overburden the small businessman to any great additional extent.

The benefits of a pension plan are somethi~ that has been unknown to me personally and to a large extent that area of the Province from which I came .My background,the old part of dmvntown St. John's ~ the great criteria down there when I was growing up was the jealousy over a family that had a steady job. If they had a steady job it was on the sufferance of the employee and they had to be very thankful and very grateful that it wa.s available. There was never any suggestion of