Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, APRIL 3, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 40

April 3, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1035 The honourable Member for St. John's East. n-1 HON. W. W. MARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr. Speaker• today I do not think that this occasion should pass without the Rowse noting its sorrow and passing an expression of sympathy. I know all honourable members wouid wish to dp so, !)n the recent paBSing of Archdeacon Norman, who was Archdeacon of-Newfoundland and a very distinguished personage in the Anglican Church, who served throughout many of the parishes in Newfoundland.

Be had been very active for many years in the aff'aira of the church. He had been retired for a little while, and recently passed away. His interment took place today.at Coley's Point. Normally motions of this kind are placed before the House before this. We had intended to do so yesterday but I know the honourable members of this House would not like the time to go by without recoriillg their sympathy to the family of Archdeacon Norman, not only to the family but to the Diocese of Newfoundland on its very sad loss. MR. SPEAKIR: The honourable member for Bonavista North. MR. P. s. THOMS: . Mr.

Spealter, on behalf of the Opposition, we would like to support the government in this message of _aympathy to Hr•. Hierlihy and her relativea. Archdeacon Norman I believe was on:e of Newfoundland's most outstanding sons, especially in the Anglican Church. He served many missions throughout the Diocese of Newfoundland. Be had been for some fifteen or siKte~ years a very close and personal friend of mine and a very close and personal friend of ay father for a much lon~er period. '1'he honourable Member f.or Harbour Grace and myaelf attended the fuReral of the late Archdeacon Nonnan.

We would indeed sup- ~ort this motion. l believe Newfoundland and indeed the Anglican Church have lost an outstanding son. MR. SPEAKER: The Ron. Minister of Fisheries. HOH. H. A. COLLINS: (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Mr. Speaker, I wou.ld like to join wi~h the honourable members in paying tribute to Archdeacon Norman. HeYas ·well known all over Newfoundland and during the past 3122

April 3, 1974 Tape 1035 PK - 2 number of years he has travelled extensively to the various parishes and missions. His most recent charge was in Bishop's Falls which is part of my district. He had a lot cf relatives at Gander and in Concep~ion Bay.I would certainly want to be associated with those who have extended sympathy to the family over the passing of a very fine Newfoundlander. MR. SPEAKER: It has just been brought to my attention that we have •in the ~alleries today from the Municipality of Lumsden, Mayor Parsons. Councillor Dr. Manning and Town Clerk. Mr. Gray.

On behalf of all the honourable · members I would like to welcome these gentlemen to the House of Assembly and to the galleries. PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The -honourable Member for Fogo. CAPT~ E.W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a _petition from the people of Tilting.on Fogo Island. I think, Mr. Speaker, this is not a duplicate but it is certainly the second or third petition that il have presented on behalf of the good people of Tilting. The prayer of the petition is that the road from the Central High School on Fogo Island, all the way to Tilting,be upgraded and paved.

Now, Sir, this time of the year.like all other gravel roads in Fogo District, along the straight sh9re are in deplorable condition. This may be brought on through the mild winter and the melting of snow. However the people of Tilting have a just cause in having their request made to have their particular road upgraded and paved. I would suggest, 1-:r. Speaker• that perhaps the best anniversary that the government can help celebrate, if they will agree to upgrade this road and have it paved as well as all other gravel roads in Fogo District.

I am sure the people will be delighted and they will surely have something. to celebrate if they can get those roads upgraded and paved. I beg to have the petition laid on the table of the House and have it referred to the dt!l)artment to which it relates: MR. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Minister of Education. HON. C.R. OTl'F.MHF.IHF.R (~INISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker. 3123

April 3, 1974. Tape 1036 RB ~ 1 , with leave of the Bouse:: After the expressions of sympathy on the l!aasing of the archdeacon, the honourable gentleinan was up with his petition. I would like to make a brief announcement with respect to senior appointments, in a sense, really promot~ons in the Department of Ed.ucation.

(1) The appointment of Mr. Aaron Van Kesteran as Director of Vacational Education for the Province. He replaces Mr. W .J. May who some 110ntha ago was promoted within the govenunent service and now holds the position of Assistant ·Deputy-Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations·. Mr. I Van Kesteran is a graduate in Mechanial Engineering from the Technical . . . College of The Hague in Bolland and is a registered ~ember of the Institute of Professional Engineers. He came to Newfoundland in ·1947, I worked for seventeen years as Aircraft Maintenance Supervisor with KLM and with Allied Aviation in Gander.

In 1963 he was appointed Prin­ cipal of the Gander Vocational School, a position which he held until January, 1970 when he became Assistant Director of Vocational Education with the Departlftent of Education. Be is married, now resides in St. John's and has three children. I imagine he is pretty well known to a fair number of members of the House. The other is the appointment of Mr. Allan Guy who also has been with the Government in the Department of Education for a number of years, as Director of newly created Division of Research, Planning and Infor­ mation,in the Department of Education. Mr.

Guy is a native of hillln­ gate where he received his early education ~nd did under-graduate 110rk at Memorial, Carlton and Queens from which he ROt.his bache1or!s degree. Be got his masters in Educational Planning from the University of .Toronto. He has completed two years of additional work, working on his doctoral thesis in his spare time, his free time or his own tiae. ~- Mr. Guy as well, I would imagine, would be well known to quite a number of honourable members. He was a high school teacher in Twillin­ gate some years ago and a~ I mentioned is . a native of that area.

Be also taught in Botwood and Grand Falls. He was a Provincial school supervisor in the Green Bay_ White Bay areas and was supervising principal of the Twillingnte Regional High Scho_ol System and also was on the faculty of 3124

April 3, 1974. Tape 1036 RH - 2 the College of Fisheries for a while. He worked for some time as a planning officer with a Board of Education in Ontario and for the past three and one-half years he has been in charge of educational planning of the Department of Education. In his new job he is responsible for co-ordinating the department's efforts in research, accumulating, com­ piling statistical data and educational planning and he also provides for the consolidative service to school boards and to denominational offices with respect to educational planning in their areas of juris­ diction.

He is married and they have three children.· I table this in case any honourable members wish to peruse it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member from St. Barbe North. MR. FRED ROWE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House I would like to congratulate Mr. Van Kesteran on his appointment as Director of Vocational Education. Mr.

Van Kestern, although I do not know him all that too well, was a neighbor of mine for a very short period of time and he seems to be a very sincere and hard-working Newfoundlander and it is nice to see a· gentleman who bas decided to become a Newfoundlander being appointed to this high office. I would also, Sir, on behalf of my colleagues, like to congratulate Mr. Allan Guy as Direct ·or of the Division of Research and Planning, if I got it correct, the Director of Research and Planning in the Depart­ ment of Education. Mr. Guy, of course, is a native Newfoundlander. I went to university with Mr.

Guy and he has had a distinguished career in the field of education and I am sure that he will contribute greatly to the Department of Education. I would like to wish both of these gentlemen all the best in their new appointments and sincerely hope that these two divisions will really get moving. I hope to see a great deal come out of the Division of Research and Planning, in particular, Sir, because I have been wondering over the past couple of years just what has been going on in that particular area of the Department of Education.

Once again, I would just like to congratulate them and wish them all the best. 3125

April 3, 1974. Tape 1036 IB-3 MR. SPEA@: The honourable member from Twillingate. 'MR. H. W. C. GILLETTE: l would very much like to add ay congratulaUoas ~ to these two gentl~n. The former is a stranger to me both by a.. aad by person. The latter Mr. Guy is not o~y a native of Twillingate but he is actually a 3126 ...

April 3, 1974 Tape 1037 IB-1 relative of mine, his mother having been a cousin of mine. So! naturally, ~r. Speaker, I have a great sense of pride in the fact that Mr. Guy has risen to this position with the Government of Newfoundland. He has been very, very close to education in Newfoundland since graduating from high school. Just as a matter of ·a story of by the way, he made a trip with me when we covered some 700 miles,in my small cabin cruiser,when I was doing the North East Coast on a selling trip.

He has some pictures and also he has a sketch and drawing of the cemetery in Croque which is a very unique cemetery in this province. He was very much interested in all of the aspects of the North East Coast, particularly for his own educational purposes. I believe he ma.de a sketch at that time of every tombstone in the cemP.tery and the inscriptions on each and every one· of them. It is a cemetery which holds the seamen from the French and the British navies. I just mentioned that by the way, Mr. Speaker, but I want to repeat my congratulations to these two gentlemen, particularly to Mr. Guy.

I feel, as the member for St. Barbe North, that both these gentlemen will add considerably to the educational programme of the government, any government of this province. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: BON. W. ~ARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr. Speaker, pursdant to the debate of yesterday, I want to Five notice of motion of a resolution which should be of interest to all parties including the opposition. I give notice, Mr. Speaker, that I will on tomorrow move that the Standing Orders of this honourable House of Assembly be amended~ in the following manner:

(1) To amend Standing Order 49 which will read as follows: "49. (a) ~o member except the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition or a ~inister moving a government order and the member speaking in reply immediately after such Minister or a member r.aking a motion of ''No Confidence" in the government and a Minister 3127

April 3 1 1974 Tape 1037 IB-2 replying thereto shall speak for 1110re than forty-five minutes at a time in any debate. Par•graph (b) ~e Premier and the ~•ader of the Opposition shall not be entitled to speak for more than ninety minutes at any time in any debate except where the Premier moves a government order or ia replyfng to a motion of "No Confidence" 1n the government or where the Leader of the Opposition speaks in reply i111111ediately after a I Minister has moved a government order or makes a motion of ''No Confidence" in the govemment."

(2) This is ' also of interest. To amend the Standing Orders of the House of Assembly by ,adopting a new Standing Order b~arlng number 116 as follows: I "116. (

a) The proceedings of the Committee of Supply shall be limi .ted ,to not more than Seventy five (75) hours to be reduced in '\ accordanjce with the following provisions of this Standing Order. I "(

b) There may be appointed at each Session immediately following presentation of the motion to move the Rouse into Conmdttee of the Whole oa Ways and Means at least one CoDDllittee of the House which ' i shall be charged with responsibility of considering and reporting upon any estimates referred to it, each such Committee to consist of not less than seven nor •.·more than fifteen members of which fifty per cent of the complement of such Committee shall fora a quorum. "(

c) Th• Estimates of ten departments aay be referred to a Committee appointed pursuant to paragraph (

b) of this Standing Order in whic~ case three (3) hours shall be deducted for each department so refe'fred from the total' of "'Seventy five (75) hours of the Committee of Supply. "(

d) All Estimates which are .to be referred to a Coaaittee appointed pursuant to paragraph (

b) of this Standing Order must be referred within ten aeasional days from the date of the motion to 1110Ve the Bouse into Committee of the Whole on Ways and Means and the· Committee to which such Estimates have been refened must report . . . . . to the House within twenty five sessional days from the date of 3128

April 3, 1974 Tape 1037 IB-3 said motion; but in any case, a Committee to which any Departments estimates have been referred must report to the ' House as soon as it has concluded its ) 3129

April .3, 1974. Tape 1038 1H - l' consideration of that department. Paragraph (e) "Each report of the committ _ee appointed pursuant to paragraph (

b) of this Standing Order of the House shall be placed on the Order Paptt for debate at a sub­ sequent sitting provided that such debate shall be confined to not more than three hours. Debates upon such reports shall be in the House with Mr. Speaker in the Chair and shall be subject to the nor- 1 - mal Standing Orders ·respecting debates in the House provided always that at the ,expiration of three hours all such questions as IIUSt be decided in order to conclude the debate on the report before the Bouse shall be decided forthwith." Number (f): "Any estimates not referr-ed to a committee appointed pursuant to paragraph (

b) of this Standing Order shall be considered in Coumdttee of the Who.le on Supply and it shall be the duty of the Chairman to record the time spent in consideration of estimates in each department." Paragraph (g): "At the conclusion of seventy-five hours provided by paragraph (

a) of this Standing Order or such lesser nmnber as remain by reason of operation of paragraph (

c) of this Standing Order, the Chair­ man of the Connnittee of the Whole on Supply shall put all questions necessary to carry every vote and item of each estimate not referred t~ a committee appointed pursuant to paragraph (

b) of this Standing Order and such questions are not debatable. 1 have a copy, _Mr. Speaker, for the - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. BON. T. A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill: A Bill,"An Acj; Respecting A Provincial Court. BON. G.R: OTT'ENHEIMER (Minister of Education): Hr. Speaker, I give ~ice that i shall on toIDQrrov ask leave to introduce a bill: "An Act Respecting The Newfoundland Teachers' Association." ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Fogo. MR.. E. Y. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, 'before we get into Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Minister of Fisheries. 3130

April 3, 1974. Tape 1038 RH - 2 The Minister of Fisheries made a statement on one of the radio stations this mornin~, I am not sure which one. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: CJON. MR. WINSOR: CJON, was it? To the effect that refrigerated warehouses in the United States are now blocked with Newfoundland or fresh fish blocks. Can the minister tell _us if the case now is that the supply is greater than demand for Newfoundland frozen Eish blocks on the Arnetican market? KR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. HON. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, that is a little bit involved but I will try and answer the question in as concisive form as I can. Reports which we are getting from the United States, they are fairly accurate, we believe, indicate that most of the suppliers in the States do have a fairly high inventory of fish, It is higher than nor­ mal. I discussed the matter with the federal minister last Saturday and the Federal Govet'IU'lent is well aware of the situation as we are and as the industry in Newfoundland is also aware of it. They have discussed it with them.

The best intelligence which we can get would indicate that one of the reasons for this is the introduction of minced fish into the United States from Korea and Japan, pollock and whiting. But then again the best information from the Federal Government at this time is that it might be a temporary thing. We are looking forward to the position improving as the s1JT11111er comes on. MR. WINSOR: Mr, Speak.er, is what the minister saying now that we have reached the stage where the Newfoundland frozen blocks have reached the saturation point?

If this is so,does the minister think that this will have any effect on the price of fresh fish to our fishermen? MR. COLLIHS: No, Mr. Speaker, we are not anticipating any difference in price to the fishermen. The price at the stage at the moment is fairly stable. Prices have dropped back a little from the high of last summer and last fall. There is every indication that the price which will be offered for salt fish this year will be even better than last 3131

April 3, 1974, Tape 1038 RB - 3 year. So, in the event tbat the fresh fish market does not conti~ to 0 blprove,' certainiy frcna a Newfoundland fishe.rma11'• point of riev, we look at the salt fish market. That 1114=t'ket is really buoyant. So, we do not anticipate t.oo much difficultY.• It has-'t,een said that one of the reasons for the high inveatozy in the States or the slow moveinent of fish has bemt due to the fact . I . that consumptic,n- in Lent· was dow this ye•r ~•red with last I year. Of cour~e. the major problaa is · again the minced fish which has been brought in by .Japan and Korea ... 3132

April 3, 1974 Tape No. 1039 NM - 1 All told we are keeping in touch with the authorities in Ottawa,vith the industry and we are all optomistic that it is a temporary thing and by the time summer rolls around and inventories start to build up again that the position would have improved. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. BON. G.

OTTENHEI!-IER, Minister of Education: I undertook yesterday to get some information with respect to a question from the honourable member for Bell Island and this was regarding the government's new policy effective this month, April this fiscal year,of payments twice a month to recipients of social assistance. The payments will be made the middle and end, the fifteenth and last day of each ~nth and will in fact be two equal installments of the total amount, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St, Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the honourable Minister of Health.

Could the minister indicate whether or not there is a shortage of supply of nurses to the International Grenfell Association at the present time and what steps his department is taking to ensure that areas such as Labrador, St. Barbe North and White Bay North that are under the jurisdiction of the Internat~onal Grenfell Association will not suffer adversely from this shortage of nurses? DR. ROWE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is a shortage of nurses in the International Grenfell Association as well as other areas.

I think the main concern with the International Grenfell Association is finding nurses for some of their more isolated outposts and they are carrying on their campaign of advertising in the United Kingdom. A recent statement from Dr. Thomas indicates to me that the replies to advertisements in the United Kingdom for nurses have dwindled down to what he calls a tr1ckle, in other words ~here are relatively few United Kingdom nurses now applying to come out to work with the 3133

April 3, 1974 Tape No. 1039 NM - 2 ' .International C4enfell Association. Another point was that some of_ the nurses have been put off from coming out here because of certain psychiatric requirements These have now been deleted by the Nurses Association. People are given a year in which to work without a psychiatric exam.

The essential point is that there are not sufficient nurses in the United Kingdom applying to come to the International Grenfell Associatio~ where traditionally they had been receiving most of their nursing supply from,and advertisments are now being placed I in the Canadian and American journals as well. We are very aware of the situation and.are taking the necessary steps tbrou~h advertising to encourage people to cmae. MR. F. ROWE: Supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, has the minister given I any consideration to expanding the facilities of the various nursing schools in the province for the purpose of getting additional nurses trained within the province itself.because we know that they are overcrowded at the present time and cannot accept all the applicants , ( that they receive each year 1 DR. A •. BOWE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, just before the class ended in September o' last year we were inforaed that there waa likely to be I a shortage developing in the next year or two and we asked each school of nursing in the province to increase to a maximlDII their intake of students. In addition to which we have increased the numbers of training for nursing ali&istants. The other point I could mention is that the Miller Nursing Commission on nursing has now. been received, it is at the printers.

I have no doubt that when this is received back from the printers there will be certain recommendations there regarding the future nursing situation. MR. F. ROWE: tlr. Speaker, another question of the Minister of Health. Bas the minister's department.have any of his officials looked into the situation at the cafeteria at the u~iversity? Nov I am not concerned about whether the food is a little cooler or not 3134

April 3, 1974 Tape No. 1039 NM - 3 but on a television programme yesterday there was some~retty despictble evidence of dirty dishes and this sort of thing at the university, so I was wondering if the minister has had officials of his department 3135

April 3, 1974 Tape 1040 IB-1 look into the hygenic situation of the cafeteria at the university, DR; ROWE: No, Mr. Speaker, 1 did not see the particular statement nor was it brought to my attention, The last problem we had with the university was the question of the poisoning episode following which the public health inspectors made several visits and followed up on conditions there. I will take notice of what he has mentioned today and bring it to the attention of the chief of the heal.th inspectors. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to get back to the Minister of Fisheries on this very serious matter that was raised by my colleague the member here for Fogo. Would the minister indicate if because of the crisis that seems to be developing in the fresh fish industry - it is a crisis, ~r. Speaker - if the government are taking any steps to encourage more fishermen in the province to get into salting their fish because there is a great d~mand in the salt fish market? The price is good but it looks - AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: The price is going up.

MR. ~'EARY: The 'price is going up~ The chairman of the Salt Fish Corporation announced a couple of days ago that there would be an increase in price. So, would it not seem logical then and make a lot of COIIIIIIOll sense to switch from fresh to salt? Does the minister have any programme 1n his department to encourage fishermen to do this? MR. COLLINS: Mr, Speaker, there is really no crisis · ha• developed yet. As far as we can see, there is no crisis developing.

As I mentioned, I discussed this with the federal minister last week and we were thinking in terms of what the federal govemmeat ~ould do under the Prices Support Board in the event that some fish had to be withheld in canada for a time until the market levell~d off, until the supply was.disposed of in the States. With everybody on top of it now, we do not envisage any_ problem. With regard to my statement concerning the fact that the salt fish market is really buoyant and prices should be higher than last year, •e have had meetings ~1th the Salt Fish Corportation, with Mr.

Maloney ~nd with the new chairman of the corporation, Mr. Bradbury. We have also had meetings 3136 ..

April 3, 0 1974 Tape 1040 IB-2 with the people who normally produce salt fish. In other words, they buy the fish fresh from the fishermen and salt it. So, I have been assured that there will be adequate supplies of salt in the province for the summer. Also, I think that the industry and the fishermen and the government are ready for whatever might happen. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope the minister is right.

I wonder if I could direct another question to the minister and put my mind at ease concerning a rumour that I have heard that Fishery Products will be using two foreign draggers this year to supply fish to one of their fish plants here on the Avalon, I think in Trepassey it is, .;_f this be true and if so why?. Did they get permission from the Government of Canada and from this government here? Is it a fact? Can the minister confirm or deny whether this is true or false? If it be true, why? Why must they bring in foreign draggers? ~tanned by foreign crews I am told. MR. COLLINS: ~r.

Speaker, I think the announcement has been made. Fishery Products have entered into an agreement with the federal government whereby they have been permitted to bring in two Spanish trawlers, purely for demonstration purposes. One of the reasons for this, Mr. Speaker, is that last year we caught only about seven - in fact it was exactly 7.6 per cent of the cod quota in the ICNAF areas of 2.13, 3K and 30. Fishery Products are trying to prove that the Spanish method can be applied to Newfoundland. They have chartered two pair trawlers.

The crews are coming with them but it is ~urely on a demonstration basis to see how effective that type of fishing can be carried out. They will have Newfoundlanders I am told on the boat for picking up the experience and training and so on and so forth but it is purely a matter between the federal government and Fishery Products and on a demonstration basis, experimental work if you want to. MR. NEAFY:. Well, Mr. Speaker, this is quite a shocker. Could the ainister inform the House, Sir, if it is being done with the blessing and approval of the provincial government? Because I am sure if there were 3137

April 3, 1974 Tape 1040 IB-3 any objection from the province, the federal government certainly would not give Fishery Products permission to bring these two draggers in,manned by foreign crews,to supply our ~ocal fish plants,and we with the record unemployment in this province,. Is it done with the blessing of the provincial government? J-fR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it is not a question of with or without the ble~sing of the provincial government. It is entirely an arrangement between the F~shery Products and the federal government. It is on a demonstration basis only, for experimental purposes.

It is to try and improve our position in terms of being able to catch our quota of cod. We are looking at an ICNAF meeting coming up in Halifax this year when it is going to be embarrassing to Newfoundland, to Canada in fac-t, because we' are going to be seeking higher quotas, increased quotas and there is a real good chance that the foreigners 3138

April 3, 1974 Tape 1041 PK - 1 will look us straight into the eye and say; "Well, last year you only took about eight per cent of your quota, so how can you demonstrate to us that you can do better? I suppose the federal minister is taking.the position it is a very worthwhile experiment. It is not something which is going to last forever~ Certainly they need the cod fish.

They are catching cod fish not flounder or red tail or yellow tail or red fish, It is strictly geared up to cod because for some reason and maybe the honourable member will be able to tell us more than we know ourselves because we have not b~en around here that long yet, for some reason down through the years we never in this province proved to ourselves or to the world,for that matter, certainly we have not proved to ourselves that we are capable of going out there and catching fish. I mean the fisheries of the - Spaniards and the Portuguese havP been coming over for some time.

I would suspect that the federal minister got this in mind. He is trying to find ways and means to improve our capabilities in that field. The information which is gained will be available to the province and certainly we hope it will be useful to us in formulating our long term plans. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I wonder if the 11inister would inform thee House if the minister or his government, if there were any prior consultation by the federal Minister of Fisheries or the Government of Canada before this decision was taken? Sir, are there any consultations? Did the minister object?

Did his government object to this nonsensical move? Was there any objection on the p~rt of the province? MR. COLLINS: Mr, Speaker, we were advised of the fact after it was consummated. As I said, there 1s no reaeon why the federal minister ahould get in touch with us because this falls completely within the jurisdiction of the federal government. We were told about it on Saturday after the deal has been consummated. HR. SEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Does the inister intend to protest this move? Or what is the policy of his government on it? Are they allowing these fbreign draggers to 3139

April 31 1974 Tape 1041 PK - 2 come in here to supply our local fish plants with the blessing of the federal g~vemment? Are they going to protest it? 'HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Is the minister going to protest this? AN HON. MEMBER: Speech! Speech! MR. NEARY: Will there be a protest? MR. COLLINS: Time will tell. - MR. NEARY: Time vill tell. Go ahead. MR. WINSOR: · Mr. Speaker, a 9Upplementary queetion following the question by my colleague regarding the foreign draggers.

Last year I believe Fishery Products brought over a trawler the "Boston Yot!:k" or a similar name to experiment upon the Hamilton Banks. I believe the charter of that vessel was jointly shared by the provincial and federal. My question to the minister is: Has there been any report from that experiment? Was the experiment successful? What did they find? MR , COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there was an experiment~carried out using the "Boston York". The cost was shared by the federal fish, provincial fish and Fishery Products. Some fishing was done on the Hamilton Banks.

I think one of the things which was proven is that it is not a very economic area to fish in. However before one can draw any firm conclusions they 111USt_ take into account the fact that maybe the ship was not the right type ship. It is difficult to ay if it were a ·succeas or if it were not a succea because there are so many imponderables. Depending upon where you might go to the Hamilton Banks, it might ~etermine,what you catch is going to depend upon the ice so on and so forth. The information which was gathered was useful.

It might be note•.fOrthy to mention the fact that Fishery Products did not undertake a similar operation this year. AN HON. MEMBER: So it wa:s not successful. MR, BEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could direct a question to the Hon • . the Premier? In view of the information that has come out in the House this afternoon, will the Premier tell us what has .happened to his famous trawler fleet, twenty trawlers that they were going to build to supply the fish plants around this province? 3140 .,

April 3, 1974 Tape 1041 PK - 3 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudi ,ble. MR. NEARY: Six being built now at Marysto~. Have there ·been any more contracts let? AN HON: MEMBER: lmludible .• MR. NEARY: That is it. AN RON. MEMBER: . !inaudible. MR, NEARY: That is not it. Well would the Premier give us same up to date informat:Lon on thi.s? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No information. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudi~le. Hll, NEARY: Pardon? What is it? AN HON. MEMBER: No.t to you, be says. MR. NEARY: Well to the Hous.e - would the Premier · give the .~ouse some informati~ on it?

Well, do uot sit there like a dUJlllllY ! MR. SP~: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down! . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR, MOORES: I will gladly answer ihat question .. 3141

April 31 1974 Tape no. 1042 Page 1 - Kl It i.s typical of the Member for Bell Island. He knows 110-re about personal innuendo to another person than he does about the fishery certainly because the record of the previous administration in the fishery was not that great. Regarding the trawler prograime, the gove1:11ment have awarded the first six tenders to Marystown. It is as we have said earlier the int~ntion of the government to become involved with further development ~n this regard.

These boats are expensive and the fin~cing, the orderly introduction for them into the catching capacity of the province, must be done in an orderly manner in conjunction with the trade and the union and so on. It is the intention of this government to pay some attention .to the fishery as opposed to that mecaa of information from Bell Island who would not know a cod from a sculpin. MR. NEARY: That is really, really smart, Mr. Speaker. It is really funny. I know the difference between a man and a politician. Mr. Speaker, there is another question for the Hon.

Premier: (Be is in such a sensitive mood today) Would the Premier inform the Rouse if the government have made any representations to the National Harbours Board, re the freight delivery services down here on the St. John's Waterfront, which could possibly bring down the cost -of living in this province if the improvements were made? HR. MOORES: Continuously, Mr. Speaker. MR.

NEARY: We are really getting the information today. tir 1 I wonder if tbe Premier, in view of the thi~gs that have been said about the second oil refinery, Sir, and people expecting to get employment there this summer, would indicate to the Rouse the actual start up date of the second oil refinery? When will people be able to find employment on the second oil refinery? MR. MOORES: MR. NEARY: I would assume, Kr. Speak.er, as soon as it starta. Would the Premier indicate to the House the starting date? Is there a target date for starting the secon~ oil refinery? ~- MOORES: The contract has been let, Mr.

Speaker, and as I understand the engineering plans have been drawn up. The company who is building 3142

April 3, 1974 Tape no. 1042 Page 2 the refinery have this information. The company appointed by the government, representing the government's position - I have to look at these plans. I am sure, Mr. ~peaker, above all else, it will be started as quickly as possible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier indicate to the House how long it will take this French fi~ to draw up the plans for the refinery? ·will it be six months ? A year? Two years? How long will ft take? MR. K>ORES: Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the honourable gentleman that it will not be anything that he could not put on the Order Paper and get an answer to because it will be at least that long. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Will the second oil refinery start this year? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! This issue of the secnnd oil refinery and questions thereto have become a debate between the Hon. Member for Bell Island and the Hon. Premier. I am sure that the honourable members are aware that this is not really the purpose of the oral question period,to get involved in a debate.

It is the feeling of the Chair that we should continue with either other questions or Orders of the Day. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hon. Minister of Health. In view of the reports that 2,000 employess in the hospitals in St. John's are threatening to go on strike because of lost time or unsatisfactory arrangements for the emergency that was declared during the re~ent storm in St. John's, what steps has the minister taken to try to offset this confrontation which seems to be brewing~ between the hospital boards and the government and the employees in the hospitals? DR. ROWE: Mr.

Speak.er, the Department _ of Health is caught in the middle of this because it is between the Newfoundland Hospital Association and the Treasury Board. We have spoken to bo~h parties. We are not involved in the i111111ediate negotiations. 3143

.. April 3, 197.4 Tape no. 1042 Page 3 HR. NEARY: Treasury Board is an arm of the government, is it not'? · Could not the minister consult with his colleague, the Minister of Finance? DR. ROWE: I have said that .I consulted with the• HR. NEARY: Would the minister give the Hous·e the information? What was the result of the - DR. ROWE: MR. NEARY: I will not speak on behalf of Treasury Board, Hr. Speaker. Well would the minister undertake to get the information? Thia seems to be developing into a very serious matter. DR.

ROWE: I will undertake to speak to my collea:gue the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board. HR. NEARY: DR. ROWE: MR. NEARY: Give the information to the House? That would be up to my colleague. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the rebellion that is just about to take place on the outer regions of St. John's where the llinister has imposed a land freeze, although be does not like to refer to it as a land freeze, would the minister indicate to the Bouse if the I government intends to revise its land freeze? MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of any rebellion that is taking place with regard to the so-called 3144

April 3, 1974. Tape 1043 RH - 1 land freeze which is not a land freeze. Then again, it is pointless to try to get that across, I suppose. We have said on numerous occasions and I have said here in this House before that we will do a complete reassessment of the land development co~trols in the St. John's area in the spring,but there is no way we can do it before the spring comes; when the snow is off the ground. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. MR..· SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: Sir, a supplementary ,. question: Would the minister indicate- if the Government have any plans to purchase the land? I know the inven­ tory is going to take some time~ The land is frozen at the moment. Does the Government have any plans _ to purchase the land from the owners or are they just going to proceed with half a programme, half a pol~cy? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. MAYNARD: I think, Mr. Speaker, it is a question that could be put on the Order Paper. It is not one certainly of immediate urgency. We are dealing with the fanning community in the area of St.

John's and whether or not we might have a policy or formulate a policy to purchase land or do otherwise with it will come at a later date. I am not going to....answer the question now. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member from St. Barbe North. MR. F .D. RO~"Et Mr. Speaker, a question to the honourable Minister of Education: Is the minister aware of the fact that the President of the University feels that enrolment will~ still be down again next year at the university and hlllldreds of young Newfoundlanders will be turned away from the University? MR . C. OTTENHEIMER: I am aware of that. Yes.

It was reported, I believe, in this morning's Daily News. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Education: What do the minister and his Government plan to do in order to ~et back the student enrolment at the university to sOl!Je -degree of normality, similiar to what it was a couple of years ago? 3145

April 3, 1974. Tape 1043 D - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speak.er7 certainly in the kind of econ0111Y we live in, we do not direct and require people to go to this institution or that institution. So, I really do not know what one could answer there. I presume the honourable gentleman is referring t·o,, the Student Aid Programme.

I presume that he is referring to the Student Aid Progral!lllle and asking or wishing to have answered ~ather, the question with respect to the Government's Student Aid Programme for next year which I, of course, am not at liberty to reveal until the estimates of expenditure are tabled in the Legislature,until after the budget speech. MR. SPEAKER: This being Private Members' Day, ~e will continue with motion number (7), I think, on the Order faper. I think the debate, last Private Members' Day when this was discussed,was adjourned by the honourable member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: I must s•y, Mr.

Speaker, I find it kind of difficult to get back to a speech that I started over a month ago relating to the. amendment to the Private Members' Resolution put by the member for St. John's North. The amendment, of course, was put by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition, I believe during the course of his remarks relating to the motion. Sir, at that time when I was speaking,just over a month ago, I expressed the feeling that I did not know whether or not I should commend or condemn the honourable the member for St. John's Horth for bringing this particular motion into the House.

Sir, I commend the gentleman for his intentions of bringing the motion into the House but Sir, I really have to criticize him and condemn him for not bringing in any substantial motion, a motion with some teeth in it in order to govem election expenses and what have you. Sir, there ~re simply no teeth in the member'• resolution and this is 3146 ..

April 3, 1974 Tape 1044 PK - 1 why the Hon. Leader of the Opposition was forced to bring in this particular amendment. Sir, the other question that I asked at the time and wondered out loud at the time was, why would it be necessary for a government backbencher to bring in such a resolution or a private members' bill calllng for legislation with respect to the conduct of elections and election expenditures and donations and this sort of a thing?

Sir, I express the feeling that if this government, this present government were indeed a team, which have been suggested from time to time,that they certainly must have been able to have a caucus, bring this particular matter of election expenses and donations and what have you up in caucus and make a recommendation to the cabinet and it would be considered at the cabinet level, legislation would be drafted and it would be brought in as a government bill. Sir, this is s0111ething that I find very, very difficult to understand indeed, why in fact legislation has not been brought in by the present administration.

Instead, we have a private members' bill comi~g from of all places the backbenches ·of the present administration. Now, Sir, since this motion has been put, we have heard from the_ Hon, Minister of Finance, we have heard from the honourable Member for St. John's East and the Member for Bonavista South on the government side.

Sir, in the course of my remarks over a month ago I suggested that nothing has come from the government side of this House on the I debate on the amendment so ably put by the Le_ader of the Opposition, nothing has come from the opposite side - of the House except an attempt to cloud the main principle of the amendm~nt put by the Leader of the Opposition. Sir, there have been a twisting of wouds, a convolution ~ of words, great red herrings have been dragged across the floor of the House of Assembly in an attempt to confuse the ame_ndment put by the Leader of the Opposition.

There have been a ateady rash, Sir, of criticism from in particular the Hon. the Minister of Finance and to a certain degree from the Member for St. John's East and from the Member for Bonavista South, criticism of the Opposition, the present 3141

April 3, 1974 Tape 1044 n: - 2 Opposition in this House of Assembly, of the previous administration, criticism of the federal government, criticism of school boards and the churches with respect to anything having to do with election donations, expense  or the conduct of theae elections, Sir, which I interpret as nothing more than to cloud the issue or the main point of the amendment put by the Leader of the Oppoaition. Now, Sir, I was out of the ' House at the time t~at the Hon. the Minister of Finance was peaking. However, I did read through the verbatim re'ports.

We just get a series of words such as; mischievous, pernicious, political _quackery, obnoxious, trashy, not a jot, not a tittle, not an iota. Sir, an ~utpouring of adjectives and adverbs simply to confuse the main point or the main principle of the amendaent put by the Leader of the Opposition. · Sir, the Minister of Finance attacked the previous administration for not: .. br:i.nging in such legislation during their twenty-three years of governing this particular province.

Sir, over a month ago when I was speaking I made certain charges or I attack the points made by the Minister of Finance and by the Member for St. John's East but I did not substantiate the charges at that 3148

April 3, 1974. · Tape 1045 RH - 1 time and this is what I intend to do today, Sir. S_ir, the honourable the Minister of Finance ·on February 13 said, and quoting from the Minister of Finance; "I introduced a resolution be­ fore the House while I sitting here as a Liberal backbencher. Like my honourable friend, the member for St. John's North, when I- introduced a resolution before the House requesting action similiar to that re­ quested by the honourable the member for St.

John's North in his recent resolution, I spoke on it and I was scorned by the government of the day about it, by the Leader of the Government I was treated with contempt.'' This is the kind of thing the honourable the Minister of Finance gets on with, Sir. "In any event, the resolution was not accepted by the House," the Minister of Finance goes on to say, "The Premier of the day piled three or four reports on the table and said that this was trashy and the House should not consider it. It was obnoxious. It was redundant.

It was pernicious, it was everything under the sun, that the member who moved the motion was the same way. Nobody on the Liberal side of the House, and four of the honourable gentlemen opposite were in the House th~, supported it whatsoever. For the previous twenty-three years of our existence not one jot,tittle o~ iota was done to reform electoral law in Newfoundland except to bring bills before the House gerrymandering the various districts.

This is all the previous Liberal Government neer did in this direction." Now, Sir, I would suggest that it would have been a much higher ground for the honourable the Minister of Finance .to take if he simply, if he could tear himself away from the past, forget that the previous administration is not in power, forget that J.R.S. is not on this opposJ ite side of the Bouse, forget that the leadership campaign is over, that the election of October, 1971 is over and deal with the present and not the past.

This is precisely, Sir, what the honourable minister has been doing consistently on every occasion in this House, attempting to criticize, not attemptinP, to criticize, criticizinp, the previous administration on every occasion no matter what the topic is at hand. 3149

April 3, 1974. Tape 1045 RH - 2 Now, Sir, usually the Minister of Finance attacks the Opposition for disagreeing or being negative, disagreeing vith the Govermnent or being negative in its approach towards the Government. Sir, the Minister of Finance did the exact opposite, a com~lete turnaround in the course of his remarks at a later point in his speech when he attacks_and CTiticizes the Opposition for agreeing.

Quoting from again Sir, the Verbatim Report of February 13,"Why is the Liberal Opposition of this House now coming on to say how much they are in favour of these changes?" Presumably he was referring to the fact that we were in favour of something along the lines of the motion put by the member from St. John's North and in favour of the Federal bill C 203, I believe it is, governing election expenses. ''Why is the Liberal Opposition of this House now coming on to say how much they are in favour of these changes?" AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Could we have a quorum call, Mr. Speakerl MR. SPEAKER: We have a quorum. MR. F.

ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I think this a shocking state of affairs when honourable members on this side of the House have to consistently call for a quorum. AN HONOUR.ABLE MEMBER: know that'l One day we are going to out-vote them. -Does he MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the hollOUrable the Minister of Finance asks why the Liberal Opposition in this House is nov coming on to say how much they are in favour of these changes.

"Because they are out of power," . .. he suggests, Sir,~because they are finding it more difficult to get money than the party that is in power." Sir, the minister i~ completely inconsistent throughout his attack on the amendment put by the Leader of the Opposition, The Minister of Finance attacks the Leader of the Opposition for a speech that he made a few months ago. I cannot remember exactly where it was. I think it vas either in Corner Brook or Stephenville, but, 3150

April 3, 1974 Tape 1046 PK - 1 Sir, the Hon. Minister of Finance attacks the Leader of the Opposition for his speech that he made regarding election expenses. The Leader of the Opposition made a speech a few months ago in whtch he was in favour of this and he gets up in the House with his amendment. He suggests that it is all hypocrisy.

" It is just hypocrisy: He may believe it also but the real reason why they are now so for it when before they would not consider it,was that before they thought they had the advantage over the Progressive Conservatives, if they did something like this the P.C.'s would be able to battle them on equal terms. Sir, this is another example of simply attacking for the sake of attacking, dragging a red herring across the amendment put by the Leader·of the Opposition, which attempts to put a little bit of meat into the private members' resolution moved by the Member for St. John's North.

Sir, the Leader of the Opposition is not being hypocritical whatsoever. Over the years, Sir, people do thi~, even members on this honourable side of this House, they have a change of mind, they have a change of rhilosophy and of ideas. God help us, Sir, in this House if everybody ceased to think or .change their minds! We still can have a change of philosophy on items that are brought up in this House. Surely, Sir, it is the right of the Opposition to have a change of mind based on their experience. Sir, What is wrong with that?

It seems to be wrong, Sir, for the Leader of the Opposition to change his mind but it is quite all right for the Minister of Finance to take his stand, different at this point in time from that which he took in 1968 and 1969 when he was the so-called defender of 1ustice at this time. .. Sir, another example of a red herring that can be found in the Bon. the Minister of Finance's speech is wh•n - Mr. Speaker, I insist on calling a quorum again. MR. SPF.AKER: (STAGG) : Would the Clerk count the House,please? There is a quorum. MR. ROWE, F. B. Mr.

Speaker, it is the gov-e~ent's responsible to maintain a quorum in this honourable House. 3151

April 3, 1974 Tape 1046 Pl:. - 2 MR. NEARY: Get a new Whip, I would suggest. HR·. ROWE, F. B • AN HON. MEMBER: The Whip is not d~ing his job, Mr. Speaker. Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Speak- from their own seats please. MR. ROWE, F. B. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance in his debate attempted to drag another red herring across the amendment. The honourable gentleman opposite,the minister says, MR.. PECKFORD: On a point of order• Mr. Speaker. The honourab.le Member for St. Barbe North for the last three or four minutes has been talking about - AN HON, MEMBER: What is the point of order, Mr. Speaker? MR.

PECKFORD: the resolution that is on the floor as if the Minister of Finance had a resolution dealing with red herring. Now, Mr. Speaker, I thought that the resolution that was brought in by the Member for St. John's North - MR. ROWE, F. B. What is the point of order, Mr. Speaker? Will the member state his point of order. MR. PECKFORD: I am in the process of stating it, Mr. Speaker. Then the amendment brought in by the Leader of the Opposition had to do with election expenses.

The amendment explicity says that the Leader of the Opposition or the Opposition want the government to bring in some legislation within thirty days. Now, Mr. Speaker, I sub'glit that the Member for St. Barbe North all he is doing is discussing the speech by the Minister·of Finance and trying to contend that red herrtng _were brought across the floor of the House and hence he is out of order,~- Speaker. MR. ROWE, F. B. I submit, Hr. Speaker, that is not a point of order, it is a matter of opinion between two members of tlii"s honourable House. I am debating the issue at hand, I am not criticizing the Hon.

Minister of Finance personally. I am debating what it is that the Hon. Minister of Finance said in his debate and I assume that this is the purpose of this House of Assembly. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the point of 3152

April 3, 1974 Tape 1046 PK - 3 order is not a point of order, it is merely a differ ence between two members. MR. NF.ARY: Could we have a ruling, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Yes, lam inclined to agree with the honourable Member for St . Barbe North that while ne may wander far afield at times, he is generally speaking within the realms of relevancy. While it is good at t:illles for honourable members to bring up points of order in \lhich they give their opinions, the rules are . 3153

April 3, 1974 Tape No. 1047~ 10-11 being traversed. However,I do feel at this time that the honourable member is within the rules. NH - 1 MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Finance said, Sir, that the honourable gentlemen opposite are going to force us to introduce legislation within thirty days, going to force us. I heard somebody mention arrogance a few minutes ago.

What could be more arrogant than the House of Assembly passing a resolution like that: They are not only going to introduce legislation Mr.Speaker,the members of the House tell usthey are not only going to introduce legislationthey·are going to do it within thirty days. Now, Sir,this is another example of much to do about nothing. Honourable members on this side of the House are not strong on this particular point and I am prepared to move an amendment to delete thaf particular

section from the amendment put by the honourable the .Leader of the Opposition. The Leader o'f the Opposition was simply emphasizing the fact that this is something - that had to be dealt with as quickly as possible. It should not be allowed to drag and die out during this particular session of the Bouse of Assembly. Sir, another example of distraction.mentioned by the Minister of Finance was when he said, ''Mr.

Speaker, we are now supposed to meekly follow the Bouse of Commons of Canada." Or tomorrow will they bring in a resolution to this honourable House,some other act passed by the Parliament of Canada • Will we be asked to pass our own Family Allowance Act? Will we be asked to pass the National Defence Act? Will we be asked to pass a LIP Act? Ve do not need it , we have lots of lip across the House.

Sir, what kind of argument and what kind of statements are these put by the honourable the Minister of Finance whom I understand, Sir, is a lawyer,and we would expect some greater degree of logic in the honourable Minister of Finance's debate and argument than that which we find in this inconsistent and convoluted speech that 3154

April 3, 1974 Tape No. 1047 NM - 2 he presented with respect to this particular amendment. Sir, another example of distraction, deliberate distraction I submit, Sir, to distract from the main point of the amend~ent put by the member for White Bay North. It may very well be that some or all or many of the provisions in the preaent federal legislation will be suitable ~o be introduced into our legislation.

For the Leader of the Opposition to suggest seriously that within thirty days the government introduce into this House a law on this subject similar to that passed by the House of Commons in Bill C-2O3 is the height of ludicrousness. He is asking the House to do something so ludicrous and so unheard of that it boggles the imagination. ''I would say that this amendment must have been drafted by the member for Bell Island. It certainly was not drafted by anybody who was fair thinking.

It was drafted by the honourable member for Bell Island; well it is certainly mixed up enough to be.k Now, Sir, I am flabbergasted, my mind is when I hear an honourable ~.inister of the Crown coming on with such garbage and such foolishness in those quotations that I related to this afternoon, Sir. Sir, another point the Minister of Finance brings up ~s this; He says that we cannot pass legislation directing radio and television stations to make free time broadcasting available to political parties in Newfoundland. There is no way even if we were so inclined, Mr.

Speaker, that we could plainlJ adopt the legislation passed by the House of Commons. The honourable Leader of the Opposition is barefoot of ideas. Now, Sir, is the Minister of Finance suggesting that we cannot negotiate with the federal government or federal agenci .es. or federal departments pertaining to such matters? I submit, Sir, that we can. As a matter of fact when this adm1nistr4t1on took over, ~.r. Speaker, there was a great trooping of members opposite to Ottawa with a film crew to show a great buddy buddy relationship existed between the federal administration in o·ttawa and the provincial 3155

April 3, '1974 Tape No. 1047 NM - 3 administration which was supposed to be contrary to that which existed previous .to the March election. Sir, I am suggesting that there should be no trouble whatsoever in negotiating with the federal authorities or CRTC or the federal government or any.federal agency if there is a simple matter of a question of whether free radio and television time can be made available to political parties. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, the honourable Leader of the Opposition just last week managed to get fifteen minutes of free television times I believe. MR. WM. ROWE: And radio. MR. F.

ROWE~ And radio time. MR. ROBERTS: Except CBC. MR. F. ROWE: Except the CBC,and this did not require months of negotiations or anything else with the federal government. Sir, the Minister of Finance, I submit, was not only shallow in his arg~ents and inconsistent in his arguments, lacking in logic in his arguments with respect to the amendment put by the member for White Bay North but, Sir, I submit that the Minister of Finance was indeed hypocritical with his stand on certain points and I, Sir, refer to his stand on patronage when it comes to elections and events following elections.

"Newfoundland, Sir," he saye, the honourable Minister of Finance, "is no different in this respect than any of the other nine provinces nor is it different from the Government of Canada. Patronage, Sir, is the system in all ten provinces and the Government of Canada. Mr. Speaker, when I think of the fuss," an~ this is quoting the Minister of Finance, Mr.

Speaker, "when I think of the fuss that was made last year about one George McLean who got several small advertising contracts from the Newfoundland Government and compare it with the situation to Ottawa where tens of millions of dollars are paid out yearly to advertising companies that run the Liberal Party's advertising and political campaigns nationally, it Just makes me 3156

April 3, 1974 Tape No. 1047, 1048 NM - 4 wonder. Patronage of the sort that McLean got in Newfoundland is small potatoes compared to patronage being handed out." Now, Sir, he does not substantiate these charges. They have been substantiated in this province.' An honourable member asks, Sir, "Are you admitting that McLean got patronage?" Mr. Ci:osbie - ltR. BARRY: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, is the honourable member going to read back to us the Minister of Finance's speech.

It is all very well to relate in passing to some of the irrelevant or unsupportable arguments used by the Minister of Finance, if there are any and I doubt there are, but do we have to listen to the entire speech of the Minister of Finance again? If the honourable member cannot get his own speech for presentation to this House,then I suggest he sit down and give somebody else a chance. MR. F. ROWE: To that point of order, Mr.

Speaker, I can well understand why the ~onourable fli.nister of ~.ines and Energy would not want to hear the honourable Minister of Finance's speech once again because it was lacking in logic. Sir, the point 1$ that - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: I am speaking to the point of order, Mr. Speaker: MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG): The honourable member may make bis point. MR. F. ROWE: Yes, I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Mines and Energy does not have a point of order.

As I understand it, Sir, this Assembly is establi~hed for the purpose of debate and I can be no more relevant than to refer to and rebut some of the statements made by the Minister of Finance 9 and if it hurts the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, that is his problem. MR. CARTER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, we might make the point that if he is going to quote the ~.inister of Finance he should at least read what he said forwards rather than read it backwards. 3157

April 3 1 1974 Tape No. 1047, 1048 NM - 5 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. Could I speak to the point of order? MR. SPEAKER(MR. STAGG): The honourable member has already spoken to the point of order, has he not? · MR. F. ROWE: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG) : · He -spoke to the same point of order, If the honourable member might resume his place. Is the honourable member seated? The point raised by the honourable the Minister of Mines· and Energy is certainly a point of which I think the honourable member for St. Barbe North should take note.

Re is reading quit,e extensively 'from a speech by another honourable ! member and ~ne of the standing rules of debate in the House is that honourable member_s should compose their own speechea and they should not read either speeches prepared by themselves or by other people. However, the honourable member is, generally speaking, using it for reference,but I do think that he is reading from it somewhat more extensively than necessary. 3158 ~--

April 3, 1974 Tape 1049 IB-1 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would submit that for ratification of all honourable memhers and Your Honour that if I did refer to remarks made by the honourable ~inister of Finance strictly by memory, that through human error itself I would probahly end up misquoting the honourable the ~inister of Finance. On that point I will be ruled on a point of order. The only way that I can accurately quote the honourable the Minister of _Finance is to quote from the verbatim report, Sir, from which I will continue to do so. Sir, I can assure the honourable member ·for St.

John's North that I am reading from the front to the back. If he hears from the back to.· the front, that is his problem. Now, Mr. Speaker, the point that I was making is that the honourable the t'-1nister of Finance has taken an extremely hypocritical stand on .,this whole business of patronage because, Sir, when the honourable minister - MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGC): Order, please! •' The honourable member's word hypocriticar is a form of the word hypocrite which in Beauchesne is abusive and insulting language. Maybe the honourable member might in continuing his speech make his point using other ~orda. MR. F.

ROWE: Mr. Speaker, may we have the citation on that? MR. SPEAKER(~. STAGG): Yes,

section 155, 4,Beauchesne. MR. F. ROWE: For my own - AN HONOURABLE ~MBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Did he wish to speak to a point of order? AN HONOeRABLE MEf-fBER: Inaudible. !'IR. F. ROWE: Okay, Mr. Speaker, I will continue and I will say that the honourahle the ~inister of Finance's stand with respect to patronage if not hypocritical is certainly completely inconsistent with statements that the honourable '·'inister of Finance made during the 1969 leadership campaign aQd statements made during the two provincial elections.

When the minister was asked in this honourable House if he were admitting that !-(ctean got patronage, the honourable Minister of Finance said, "I certainly admit it. What else do you think he got? I mean 3159

April 3, 1974 Tape 1049 1B-2 we are not fools here." Sir, the Minister of Finance asks us what all the fuss was about over McLean. I ask the honourable Minister of Finance what all the fuss was about in the declining years of the Liberal Administration when the word patronage was brought up on a number of occasions by the honourable Minister of Finance in this Rouse, on open line shows, on puhlic stages and during the election campaigns? Sir, I can assure you if that is not hypocritical, the least it is is that it is inconsi~tent. AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: You are not allowed to do it by the backdoor. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable Minister of ~.ines and Energy will ha~e all kinds of opportunity to get up and make his speech. Unfortunately, Sir, the poor old Minister of Finance usually has to bear t~e brunt of the criticism from this side of the Bou~e because the honourable the Minister of Finance is practically the only person that does any speaking on the other side of the House and is the only leader on the other side of the Rouse. If some other honourable members said something, we should be able to debate what they had said. AN HONQURABLE MEMBER: God help the other side then!

AN HONOURABLE ~ER~ They need a leader. MR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, the mi~ister - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Is "this in order, Mr. Speaker! Arrogance! A quorum call please, Mr. Speaker. A..~ HONOURABLE ~MBER: A quorum, Mr. Speaker, a quorum. MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG): Would the clerk count the House, please? We have a quorum. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, the honourable ~inister of Finance in his debate suggests tnat there is no need for public financing of elections. 'Well, Sir - just one second now, where did it go? Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Finance said that if we provide in effect a disclosure law you will see contributions 0 of political parties dry up inunediately because the people 3160

April 3, 1974 Tape 1049 who donate large amounts of money are not going to want their names disclosed when they do it. IB-3 Now, Sir, I suggest that we have to pay the price of democracy in this province or any other part of the Western World. I would suggest that it would be less expensive in the long run if we did have public financing of election expenses because somebody pays for election campaigns in the final analysis. I would sub~it, Sir, that in the final analysis and indirectly the people of this province pay for every leadership campaign, every election campaign.

It cost more, Sir, than it would through proper controls and if it were done. through public fina?cing. So, Sir, I would like to make a point that if we are to have democracy in this province or any other part of Canada that the province and the people of the province should be prepared to pay for it and it would cos~ less in the long rtn1 to do it through public financing than through this system where you get large corporations and what have you donating to political parties. They expect something in return for it. Obviously they are not written contracts. This has been a part of our history, Sir.

It has been a part of the history, of Canadian politics and I submit that in this day and age that we should be reaching the point where we say let us pay at a cheaper price; at a less expensive price for our democracy. Sir, if you carry this argument to its logical conclusion, why the members of the House of Assembly, their salaries are paid by the public chest. Why not the election campaign itself? Sir, the Minister of Finance in his attempt to 3161

April 3, 1974. Tape 1050 RR - 1 attack,as well as attacking the Opposition and the Federal Government, lashes out, Sir, at the CRTC, at radio stations and at T.V. stations and Sir, I refer honourable members to page 720 of the VerbatiJD ll.eport. 1 will not read that particular section~ Sir; lt is there for every­ body to read. Sir, on page 730 the Minister of Finance makes an astounding admition, an astounding admition indeed. "Finally a blow was struck for democracy and we had an election," the Minister of Finance says, "because all that the resignation did of Mr.

Saunders from the House of Assembly was to result in an election. Mr. Saunders resignation permitted that there would be an election. That is all it did, per­ mitted there be an election." Now, Sir, 1 do not know if 1 am misinterpreting or misreading what the honourable Minister of Finance was suggesting at this point in the game but surely the Minister of Finance is not suggesting that any means justify the end. Surely he is not suggesting that cheating, bribing ·, do anything, to have an election call or to win an election.

Sir, these are the things that I feel duty bomid to bring up\ with respect to some of the points that the honourable Minister of Finance made. The honourable Minister of Finance suggested, Sir, that this resolution calls for something that the Government is already considering or already doing. Mr. Speaker, I ask you this question. If the Minister of Finance is saying that this resolution calls for something t~at the Government are alrea~y doing, what are we doing debating this resolution? Why was it'brought into the House to start off with? Why was it not brought in in the fonn of legislation?

Was it discussed in caucus on the other side of the House? Sir, I submit that the Minister of Finance was attempting to distort and distract and confuse and pull red herrings across the floor of the House using confrontation tactics to cloud the point of the amend­ ment put by the Leader of the Opposition. Sir; the principle of the amendment was lost completely as a result of the honourable Minister of Finance's vicious attack on everything in sight, including CRTC, 3162

April 3 , 197 4 • Tape 1050 RH - 2 radio, T.V., Federal Government and the Provincial Opposition. Now, Sir, the honourable the member for St. John's East if he can tear himself from the Rules of the House, insulted, if I might say, his · own colleague, insulted his own colleag~e. the member for St. John's North. Sir, the honourable member for St. John's East said - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have to insist on calling a quorum. 1 think this is a despicable display of attendance in this honourable House. MR. CROSBIE: Despicable listeners. MR. NEARY: Adjourn the House.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Being no quorum, Sir, 1 move the House adjoum. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Quorum. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, without a quorum. MR. SPEAKER: A quorum. A quorum. AH HONOURABLE MEMBER: We have a quorum, MR. SPEAKER: We have a quorum, if any honourable member should wish to speak. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr. Speaker, we have no quorum. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. ROWE: I am sorry! I was not in my seat, Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: 1 assumed that the honourable gentleman yielded the floor. MR. ROWE: For what purpose, Mr, Speaker? MR.

SPEAKER: On two occasions I indicated there was a quorum and no member t~ok his place, so I recognized the Hon. Minister of Justice. AN HONOURABLE tmMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. ROWE: The Hon. Minister of Justice is now recognized as the speake~? HR. SPEAKER: Yes. KR. ROW!'!: Hr. Speaker, I accept (Blocked out by applause). I would lilce to ret!lind the House, Mr. Speaker, that I was not in my seat. KR. SPEAKER: . The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. ROWE: That is justice, Mr. Speaker! That ia justice! I hope that the Minister of Justice is capable of explaining an attempt, Mr. Speaker, 3163

Apr_il 3, 1974. Tape 1050 RH - 3 to stifle debate in this House, when you have five or six members from that honourable side of the House, Sir, out strolling around the corridors. HON. T.A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, may I very brief- ly refer to the resolution that is befor.e the House in particular the amendment as moved by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition. It does appear to me that in debating the principle of this bill or this . resolution we seem to have lost sight of the main reason, I assume, why the honourable the member for St.

John's North brought this resolution before the Rouse. That was namely to give honourable mein­ bers an opportunity to present to the House and to Government and to this Government that must share the, indeed must not share but au.st ca~ the responsibility of bringing legislation policies before the House. But is very conanendable. most commendable that the honourable the member for St. John's North seized upon this opportunity and stayed within the rules of the House to give Government benches the opportunity to hear the resolutions, the recommendations of the members of this Assembly . As I see it, Mr.

Speaker, ·the main object of controlling the election of expenditures by political p~rties and candidates is the reduction of excesses of expenditure, the elimination of possible tyranny which, as I am told, used to transpire many years ago in democrati~ societies over contributors and on contributors to the government of the day. What is equally important, Mr. Speaker, .is to eliminate in the minds of the public any concept they may have of waste and corruption within political parties exemplified by their extravagance at the time of an election. Mr.

Speaker, long before I was fortunate or unfortunate enough to find myself in public life, if there were-one thing as a taxpayer and as a voter that I resented very much indeed particularly in federal elections, having to be subjected 'to six weeks of some of the most frightful propaganda that one could imagine. Day after day the candidates droned on, insulted the intelligence of the electorate by sug~esting that they had . 3164

April 3, 1974 Tape 1051 PK - 1 to repeat it every day so that everyone would fully remember the rather mixed up, on occasions, platforms and programmes that were presented to the voting public. I would think, Mr. Speaker, that the voters and taxpayers of Newfoundland would hesitate for a long, long time before they would say to their elected representatives, "Take some of my tax money and help pay for some of the hal~-witted propaganda that we have to listen to,whether we like it or not,during election campaigns." Mr.

Speaker, any candidate for election, any political party has an obligation to clearly and definitively state to the electorate what his platform is, what his ideas are, what the party that he represents intends to implement should that party be called upon to form an administration. This, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, can be done very cheaply, very effectively without having to call upon the taxpayers of Newfoundland to dig further into their pockets and pay for it. I have no doubt at all, Mr.

Speaker, that if the people in Calvert were asked whether they would like to have their potholes filled or whether they would rather contribute towards the election expenses of candidates for offices that with very little reluctance they would choose the former. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a way to continue, to assure tha perservation of democracy without asking the taxpayers of Newfoundland to pay for elections. Mr. Speaker, it can be done very s:l..mply and with a reasonable degree of effectiveness.

I am not bold enough to suggest that it will be done with t~tal effectiveness and that is by way of legislative limitation on the amount of money to be spent by candidates and by political parties. The government of this province have done a fair amount of work. Last year when I, under the restt"Uctur:fing bills, was ~iven the responsibility to administer the Election Act or at least as the ministe~ referred to in the Election Act have been doing some work in (1) trying to Ascertain the effectiveness of the legislative machinery that is presently enforce.

The consensus of opinion amongst those who have vritten an the subject in Canada and those who appeared before the 3165

April 3 1 1974 Tape 1051 PK - 2 .Barbeau Committee set up on election expenses which filed their report with the Government of Canada in 1966 is that by far theway for the most progressive and best legislation in Canada is not the bill C203 before the House of Commons but rather the act which was introduced and passed in the Legislature of Quebec a number of years ago.

It would not be proper for me to c0111111ent on the practices that at one time had been followed allegedly in the Province of Quebec but there have been several books written concerning regimes of former prime ministers of Quebec which indicated that sometimes their rules left a great deal to be desired. · One piece of legislative ,cestriction or requirement in a Canadian province which may be of interest to honourable me.hers and which in my opinion is relevant to the debate ia in Manitoba. In the Province of Manitoba it is provided that candidates are not permitted to spend more than forty cents a voter.

Quebec is more generous. Quebec allows fifty cents per voter up to the first 10 1 000 voters, fifty cents for the next 10,000 voters and forty cents thereafter. British Coltm1bia does not set any limitation at all. Bill C 203 limits candidates expenditures to one dollar per voter for the first 15,000, fifty cents for the next and twenty-five cents thereafter. That certainly would be one provision that would be 11robably a little bit rich for our blood. Nova Scotia sets a limit of one dollar per voter up to the first 5,000 and eighty-five cents for the next and seventy-five cents for the next.

I have to confess that I was in Halifax one day last veek vhere there was an election campaign being waged and despite these limitations · and assuming that all political parties stayed within these limitations the three· parties contesting that election and the candidAtes for these parties did not seem to be lacking for . sufficient funds to conduct the election campaign and get their platforms across to the voters of that province. Some provinces, Quebec does provide a modest reimpursement to candidates who recieved a certain percentage of the vote cast in an 3166

April 3, 1974 Tape 1051 PK - 3 election. We have found t-hat in our studies to make sure that when we come before this House - There · is a lot of time yet• Mr. S11eaker, this administration have just completed two years of office and the Election Act 11rovides for five years that when a bill is brot1gbt before this House that it will be realistic and a bill that is capable of effective c~ntrol and effective im1>lementation. This will require, Mr.

Speaker, for instance; mayb.e some great .Democrats in the Province of Ne:wfoundland will violently oppose even the principle we are talking about now · because this would require for instance the registration of political· parties,to be effective, to guarantee the effective enforcement of legislation. If legislation cannot be effectively en:forced, Mr. Speaker, then I submit we should not bring it in and there is no reas,on ~by it wo'4d receive or should receive the endorsement and approbation of 3167

April 3, 1974 Tape no 1052 Page 1 - MW honourable members in this House or any other Legislature. To be effectively implemented, you first would have the registration of political parties. Who is going to mak~ that learned, fair and equitable decision as to what constitutes a political party? There will be no difficulty for the chtef electoral 'officer recognizing the Progessive Coservative Party of Newfoundland, the Liberal Party of Newfoundland, the New Democratic Party of Newfoundland and maybe even the Social Credit Party.

He could possibly find but he might have some difficulty in recognizing the New Labrador Party. His problem there would be that that party, I believe, has stated in it$ constitution or certainly in the number of candidates that it has been running in elections, that it is primarily a party centred in one part of the !rovince of Newfound~and; namely, the three electoral districts of Labrador.

We may some dff find ourselves with all kinds of 1musual parties and groups who would get together and say that they are going to contest two or three districts and we are going to - well if we recall in the federal election, all kinds of parties break loose across Canada in certain areas. They never get very far. It costs the electorate a lot of money and that sort of thing in getting ready for them, preparing for them. But who makes the decisions?Are we going to define it?

What kind of definitive description are you going to have insofar as regist~red.political parties are concerned; On the other side of the coin what would be the reaction of this House,for instance,if a political party dedicated to the over­ throw, not the government - any party that is in opposition is dedicated to the overthrow of the government - is dedicated to the overthrow of our democratic institutions~ If the late Tim Buck were still alive today, what would the chief electoral officer do if that gentleman came along and said, "I want to be financed by the people of Newfoundland in the forthcoming election and if I am elected, it is my stated policy that the House of Assembly will forthwith be dissolved and never again will we have elected represenatives." What would they do with that? 3168

April 3, 1974 Tape no. 1052 Page 2 - MW Mr. Speaker, these are the questions that any conscientious informed government must direct its attention to before making a final decision as to the kind of legislation that should be brought in. It has been suggested by some people who have done a great deal of research in the field of election expenses, of election costs, that these things can be worked out on a voluntary . basis between parties. This has been tried. It was tried in Finland, Sweden, and in West Germany, Mr. Speaker. Tbe successes were very limited indeed and they were not long lasting. The result is, Mr.

Spe·aker - HR. NEARY: Could we have a quorum call, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. HICKMAN: There are fourteen. MR. $PEAKER: There is a quorum. MR. HICKMAN: There was a quorum when it was called, Mr. Speaker. May I note that that there were fourteen. I commend the Hon. Member for Fogo for staying in his aeat,keepi~g the quorum. Mr. Speaker, the result is that the Canadian Provinces, those who have brought in legislation, have felt;to be effective there has to be legislative provisions, Mr.

Speaker, in the United Kingdom, the Mother of Parliament, whose traditions we very properly follow to a large extent in this House, the Mother of Parliament has been woefully unsuccessful in the legislation that they introduced insofar as the controlling of election expenditures are concerned. In the United Kingdom, they control by legislation the expenditures of candidates but do not control the expenses of registered political parties . The result has been, Mr.

Speaker., that all candidates for Parliament assiduously stay within the cnnfines of the lP.gislation and the limitations thereof and whack it to her out of the party treasury. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Provinces of Quebec, Nova Scotia, Manitoba and British ColUl:lbia, who have brought in legislation, still find that they have had their problems and they are still encountering probl~ms 3169

April 3, 1974 Tape no .1_052 Page 3 in trying to adequately enforce it, to try and keep the lid on and at the same time allow candidates the opportunity to discharge their responsibility in getting their philosophies across to the voters. The Government of Canada in its wisd011, sometime in the 1960's, set up the Barbeau Committee on election expenses. That committee after substantial hearings and a great deal_ of research, a committee that was composed of very competent people and research staff, presented their report in 1966.

One would have thought that the federal government would immediately seize that report of the commission and say this is what we want, get the legislation before the House. The government 3170

April 3, 1974 Tape 1053 IB-1 of the late Mr. Pearson and the government of the present Prime Minister, very properly and they could be commended for it, said that before we take this step it will require a great deal of study by the ministers and the members of the cabinet and the minister responsible for the administration of the act. It took them seven years, almost eight years, before the Government of Canada felt that it had now come up with

an act which met some of the recommendations of the Barbeau Committee and then brought it before the House. There have been all sorts of innuendos and suggestions and I have heard them during this debate, that the New Democratic Party should take credit for the final bringing of that bill before t~e House. I do not think that was the case at all, Mr. Speaker. I think it was the case that ordinary prudence dictated that there be a great deal of study into that committee's report before bringing the legislation before the House which as I say, Mr.

Speaker, the authorities, writers say is not as effective, not as progressive, not as good as the Quebec legislation. So, I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this government is _very fortunate, should be eternally grateful to the member for St. John's North for having the wisdom to provide the Progressive Conservative·Govermuent in Newfoundland the opportunity to hear from all members of the House on their divergent views as to the type of legislation required. In that respect, ~r. Speaker, we are not ·alone in our belief that there should be some control on election expenses.

We believe - I certainly believe that we can preserve all the trappings of democracy and all the rights of democrats by limiting the amount of expenditure that is necessary. Even the limitation of expenditures, Mr. Speaker, has created outcries in some jurisdict~ons within Canada because. on the limitation~ of expenditures, in some legislation.there have been ex~lusions. For instance some of the provinces exclude publications in newspapers and editorials and news reports that are published in a somewhat different manner than under the guise of an advertisement.

Padio and television stations have complained that they have had 3171

April 3, 1974 Tape 1053 IB-2 great difficulty and wil~ experience great difficulty under the federal act in tryin~ to decide what constitutes election broadcasting and what constitutes politicing by members under the guise of press releases during election campaigns. Other jurisdictions have excluded the reasonable cost incurred by a candidate and his agent for food and lodging and travel but have never been able to put a definition on what reasonable cost is. So that, Mr.

Speaker, anyone who subscribes to the view that a bill should be brought in within thirty days or sixty days in a parliament that still has a life expectancy and a legislative life of and a statutory life of another three years, in my opinion is not being realistic and is quite unaware of the kind of problems that have to be - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Quorum call. MR. SPEAKE.R: Order, please! Would the clerk count the House,please? AN HONOURABLE ~'.MBER: Adjourn the House, Sir. MR. HICKMAN: Anybody who speaks in the House has to be comited, Mr. Speaker, I submit. MR. SPEAKER: There is a quorum. MR.

EVANS: They do not count even when they are in here. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, again before this debate closes, I would like to hear from honourable members. I have not yet heard from honourable members in this House ~ho participated in the debate. Honourable members opposite, many of them spoke for an hour and a-half and it is their right. I would like to hear them submit their views as . to the qualifications for official agents, the kind of auditing system that will have to be imposed in so far as candidates expenses are concemed, the limitation on the returns by all candidates to the cheif electoral officer.

There is no doubt at all, Mr. Speaker, that for any legislation to be effective we must have competent, independent auditors to audit the accotmts of the registered political parties and to audit the accotmts as they relate to the election of candidates. Who is going to pay for that? Should the taxpayers assume that cost? Or should you simply say to a 3172 .

April 3, 1974 Tape 1053 IB-3 political party that that is.your cost 1 that if you want to retain a a chartered accountant, and i .t would have to be a chartered accountant I would_ submit, to do this kind of work, it is going to cost many thousands ' of dollars. But, the political party says, I am not going to do that. Alternatively are we going to use the taxpayers money and take an already overworked a~ditor gene~al's department and suggest that they throw down their work on the accounts for three to _six 111011ths and do that auditing?. 3173 \

April 3, 1974 rape 1054 PK - 1 'Ihe audit must take place in any _jurisdiction, Mr. Soeaker, where they have control on election expense~ and the returns filed at a maximum of six months from the date, from polling date. Some jurisdictions require that _every election voucher over fifty cents or · one dollar must form part of the record which is trans­ mitted to the chief electoral officer and must form also part of the audit of an approved auditor. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is why I say that the amendment that is before this House is not realistic. indeed it is quite unrealistic.

This is why government will continue, I hope, to make absoiutely certain that before a bill is brought before this House that we have to attempt to find the answers to these questions. Should we 111ake a difference, for instance, in the expenditures allowed candidates in certain parts of Newfoundland, in that part of Newfoundland comprising of the three electoral districts of Labrador? Should they be allowed a higher expenditure? There are places along the south coast where the coat of conductinf an election, because of geographical reasons, Centre. is considerably higher than St.

John's You would find for instance, Mr. Speaker, that both of the major parties in this province, I suspect for financial reasons, have been forced to lean very heavily upon provincial broadcasting and provincial television programmes. Yet many of us campaign, some of us at leas~ in areas where we have our own local radio stations or local television stations, where the candidates themselves cannot rely upon the provincial broadcasting, the provincial propaganda that has. been emanating from their party headquarters.

Thia means that candidates in that area are faced with expenses far, far in excess, I mean their own personal expenses,than those who can avail of the coverage and surely of the propaganda that is issued by their own -parties. These are the reasons, Mr. Speaker, why 1 can say that as a minister in the last few months,having resumed responsibility for this bill, that we have been givin~ a great deal of study. Look at th~ reco11111endations, representations made, for instance, by the New Brunswick Federation of 3174

April 3, 1974 Tape 1054 PK - 2 Labour, where they too asked for a limitation on expenditures but then point out the real problems in trying to enforce the act and hoping and suggesting to their government that when they do bring it in they find the formula and it will be a far more efficient · one than the one that is indicated in Bill C 203 to enforce their act. Mr. Speaker, there have been a lot of couanents made, a lot of issues raised.

Some are irrelevant I guess in the general context but relevant in the sense that it is only within the past few years in Canada and in the United Kingdom that people have felt it necessary to ask their legislators to impose some form of restriction on election expenses. They have done it,I suspect, Mr. Speaker, because the voting public is becoming more and more critical of its elected representatives. This is a great pity.

I like to believe, rightly or wrongly, that any member who seeks election to public office does it out of a desire, sometimes ·a burning desire,to serve his province or his country or his municipality. He does it in the sure and certain knowledge that if he does not perform competently that he will be and should be subjected to constructive criticism. When he enters that kind of life he is prepared for it. He has no right to assume nor no right to believe that the criticism of that member will go beyond his competency. In the last few years, Mr.

Speaker, and in particularly in the second general election of this administration, the one of 1972, and I say this not at all in a way to disparage those who have gone and served before us but I would say on both sides of this House that both parties attracted into the political field the most competent group of men- who sour.ht elected office since we attained the right of self­ government over a century ago. There are many honourable members in this House today who are aaking a pretty severe financial sacrifice to sit in this House, many members - .AHHON. MEMBER: Inaudible • 3175

Aptil 3 1 1974 Tape 105/t Pr. - 3 MR. HICKMAN: There are members in this House and they are on both si~es of this House. There is the honourable gentleman for White Bay North who is a _professor - AN HON. MEMBER: St. Barbe North. MR. HICKMAN: St. Barbe North, whose income I am quite certain vas far greater than it is now and his expenditure was about one-third. There is the honourable Member for Carbonear whose income I am quite certain was far in excess.

I can go on and take I would say every honourable member of this House and it would be hard to find one who today is not in a far less affluent position than he was before the voters sent him to this province. But I would like to believe that the honourable members were willing to take that chance. 3176

April 3, 1974 Tape 1055 IB-1 I would like to believe, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable members in this House and candidates who were not successful entered the political profession in the belief that it was an honourable profession.

I believe that when any of us see statements outside this Rouse, generalized statements - these are the worse statements of the lot - generalized statements as to the integrity, in particular the integrity of elected representatives, that we should not take any gnat -delight because at that particular time it may be aim~d at some other honc;rurable individual and honourable member of this House. I do not believe, for instance, Mr.

Speaker, that the political history of Newfoundland is such that we, as I believe some speaker said, above all else, above any other legislature must bring in legislation of this kind that is now being debated under this resolution. If one is a student of Newfoundland political history re.grettably one has come across two or three episodes in the political life of Newfoundland of which we should not be very proud. I do not think anybody will point with pride to the findings of the Hollis Walker Enquiry.

It would be quite wrong to generalize and say all members who were in the Parliament of Newfoundland at that time were something less than honest because that is not what the Hollis Walker Enquiry found. It is regrettable that from time to time you may find one or two individuals in the days of Responsible or Representative Government who behaved not in accord with the best rules of honesty. I will say, Mr.

Speaker, that for every Newfoundland politician from the time Representative Government was first granted and then Responsible Government and until we lost our democratic rights with the advent of Co111111ission of Government, that for every one who had been found to have profited, to have become wealthy, you ~ill find twenty-five who died in a far worse position financially than they were when they first were elected to office.

If in time the government of this province bring before this House and the House approve legislation controlling election expenditures, if and because it is felt necessary to improve the image of the political 3177

April 3, 1974 Tape 1055 IB-2 people in our pr.ovince, then so be it, it will have to be done. I cannot think of any other reason why it should be done. If we can satisfy the people of Newfoundland that you do not have to make contributions to political parties in order to get the same fair treatment from the government of the day,as a person does not, then obviously we should not concern ourselves about political expenditures at all. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that it is in that light and in that light only that a responsive government should and is looking at the the type of legis~ation that will in time come before this Legislature. The amendment to the resolution,in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, is not acceptable, not acceptable 'in the sense, Mr. Speaker, that it does not take into account the· various considerations tha·t any responsible government must examine before bringing the legislation before the House.

I would ask this House to take some comfort in the fact that this type of study that I am referring to has been going on within the confines of government for several months. I believe that we will certainly be in a position. I think it is fair to say that there will be another federal election long before there is an election in this province. It will be very interesting to see if there will be any noticeable change in the six we~ks of expensive propaganda that is spilled out over the airways and through the media - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: They only do it for twenty-nine days. MR.

HICKMAN: Or whatever the limitation is or if there will be any reduction in the traveling expenses during the sixty days of the candidates. I would be bold enough tp suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we will not see any reduction. If we should not, then it shall be obvious that sore of the fea -rs that have been expressed by those who have examined the federal act and compared it with the Quebec act are not important. Mr. Speaker, 1n closing I commend the honourable the memher for St.

John's North for his tremendous foresight, his tremendous _concern as a great democrat t~ allow this resolution to be conjured up in his mind and then brought before the House and then permit all honourable members to participate in what has been a good debate. 3178

April 3, 1974 Tape 1055 IB- 3 One honourable gentleman got up and s.aid - AN RONOlJRABLE MEMBER: All honourable members ~r one? MR. HICK!-'AN: One honourable gentleman got - up and he spoke at one point when I noticed there was far less than ll quorum here. .He was on the opposite side and he spoke on and on and that: was fine. Tb.ere · was nobody called a quorum. He started out by saying that he thought the debate was '11\l.Ch too . long and sat down at the end of his ninety minutes. There i!s nothing wrong rith that because what he was saying and the· wide-ranging debate we had cm it was very wo-rth-v.hile.

For the,13e reasons, ~r. Speaker, as I say I commend and thank the member ·for girlng us the opportunity to debate it. I will not vote for 3179

April 3, 1974 Tape 1056 PK - 1 the amendment that we are now presently debating. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Harbour Main. HON. W. G. DAWE (MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT): Mr. Speaker, first of all I would also like to congratulate the Member for St. John's North on moving this resolution. He did a marvelous job of presenting it to the House. I ~Till take issue with the words from the honourable Member foT Bell Island when he stated that Mr. Smallwood was the first person to raise this issue. He was not,as we all know,because the Hon.

Minister of Finance raised it quite some time ago, a few years ago. At that time Joe Smallwood said it was silly. He did not expound very much on it. Of course, following in his footsteps the honourable MembeT fo-c Bell Island got up and he also said it was silly. He said, Mr. Speaker, "The whole thing is silly. It is uncontrollable." But all of a sudden~ when he spoke on the resolution this time he stated "It does not go far enough." 'the honourable Member for St. John's North, if nothing else, has at least caused a very beneficial discourse on the subject of public financing, of election campaigns.

It is indeed, Mr. Speaker, most interesting for any of us who have been involved in election ca11\l)aigns du-cing the past number of years to review the happenings during these years, the manipulations, the intrigues which at that time went on by the various c~ndidates and the political parties. 1 am sure if it were written in book form, Sir, it would be a most interesting subject to read. · I have been involved in elections and political life for quite some time. I have on ~hree occasions gone to the electorate,myself looking for support.

I first became involved in politics when the former member, Y. forget which district - it was Bill Browne, he was sitting here in the House and a federal election came along, so he resigned his seat and tried for the Federal District of St. John' 8 East. But indeed it was a most unique experience. It was an eXJ)erience of a lifetime. I do hope that some form of le~islation will be introduced 3180

April 3, 1974 Tape 1056 PK - 2 in this House.whether it will be the resolution as proposed but amended, but I believe that there should indeed be some control on election expenses. I do not really agree that the election expenses should come from the public treasury, because I do not believe that our people should be taxed for this purpose. I certainly feel _, however, that there should be controls. In years gone by, Mr. Speaker, the ProgreesiveConservative Party found itself in desperate straits financially. They found themselves no doubt in the same position as the Liberals find themselves today.

We had very little to fight a campaign on. Our candidates had to find funds as best they could, through their own personal means and efforts. If they did not get enough funds,they had to just go out door to door,campaigning and meeting people in the streets and just hoping for the best. · I have seen the day,when helping to fight campaigns and even fighting one myself,when we had no money for cars or helpers, posters, television, radio. We had no money for anything at all, Sir, while our opponents were splashing it all over the place.

The various businesses throughout the province were not so much inclined to support the Progressive .Conservative Party financially. A lot of it was because out of mere fear, because of fear of reprisals by the former administration. We had no hope at all expecting a donation from anybody. To have a donation from anybody who had a liquor licence, that was certainly out of the question. On one occasion I heard that businesses around the province, particularly the large ones who depended on government patronage,were instructed that they were not to contribute more than $5,000 to the Tory campaign.

These instructions went out quite specifically and, of course, we felt the results of it, while the Liberal Party of course had unlimited funds, no problem;with Doyle and all the liquor licences around the province, there was just no limit. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, perhaps even up in the millions,to fight an election campaign. Every lounge in the province was expected to contribute, It was either that or they might be closed down for a period of time. 3181

'April 3; 1974 Tape 1056 PK - 3 I know one t$vern owner, Mr. Speaker, who discussed this matter wi.th me one day shortly prior to the October election in 1971. He was not a suppo.rter of .the administration as many were. He was amazed, there was no such thing as a request for funds, it was a demand. No such thing as; "What are you prepared to give us?'' They came along with a speci~ic amoun~ •. It .depended on how good your business was, the amount of booze you sold a year and the amount of money that they thought that you sho~ld·be making as a result • ... 3182

April 3, 1974 Tape no. 1057 Page 1 - MW Just lE;t a tavern-owner back in those days show outwardly that he supported a Tory Candidate, he would be closed down solid,like the Furey's in Harbour Main. The Liberal Party, Sir, had unlimited funds. One did not have to be a financial wizard to understand why. There were -great proliferations of posters, four by eight, radio advertisements and television advertisements.

Sir, who will ever forget the 3-D coloured pictures in October, 1971, of Joe Smallwood.and little mirrors that said, "Will the lady on the other side please vote Liberal." There were larger pictures, postcard size. These costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. I understand that it cost $60,000 just to fly them in. I recall the period of the campaign when the Liberal Candidates in my district, two of them, had no posters. They had nothing to give out. They were all running around in a tizzy wondering what they were going to do about it.

Finally out of the blue came this big jet with a full belly load of these 3-D pictures, _ mirrors, little gimmicks and so on. That load cost somewhere in the vicinlty of $60,000 just for air freight alone. Can we imagine at all, Sir, is it imaginable, what the overall expenditure must have been for this type of campaign, for this election? It must have cost at least $1 million in 1971 - · it had _,,,. \ to. Then, of course, just prior to the election in October, 1971, we had certain ministers coming out on television, advertising parks, advertising safety on the highroads, etc.

This was a government programme, it supposedly was not political. They had the Minister of Economic Development on every now and again telling us how beneficial it is to~ have these parks around the province and what he was going to do to estabish more parks and so on. Then we had the former Minister of Highways getting on showing us how to be safe on the highways, what we should do and what we should not do. These were paid .by the government, right out of the government's coffers. Of course. as soon as the election was over these advertisements disappeared.

We might note also, Sir, that these advertisements were made up by the then publicity firm which 3183

April 31 1974 Tape no. 1057 Page 2 - mw was employed by the Liberal Government, much the same as McLean's by this administration. I think they were called McClarens, if I am not mistaken. They were the ones who were aoing all the public relations work for the government. They did it for the election campaigns as well. They were paid handsomely.for it. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Liberals are indeed in favour of public financing of _election campaigns. This is something they have always been accustomed to. They _had twenty-three years of it. When Joe Smallwood first took over the administration of this province, Mr.

Speaker, he went further than just using public funds.- the p~blic chest as he referred to it in one incident, in order to frighten the people,to coerce them, to bribe them, to ue it as a threat, to force them to vote for his candidates. Mr. Speaker, just let me cite one incident which happened and which is recorded in the "Sunday Herald" dated June 19, 1949. Here is an example of how he used the threat of public funds to get his candidates elected. It is all recorded here. This was a 'political rally -which they had ddwn on the Southern Shor~. Greg Power was running.

Smallwood got on the stage and he said: "If you do not vote for Greg Power," he warned Ferryland voters at all meetings, •not one cent will you get from the government during the next forty years. Mark it down., I mean every word of it." I am just quoting from the paper itself. "You have turned me down three times," he declared at meetings in Renews, Fermeuse, Admiral's Cove and other places along the shore. "Ferryland has voted against me in two referendums and in the provincial election but I won in spite of you. Now I do not need you.

I have been elected." He warned, "You need me.· I am sitting right on top of the public chest. Not one red cent will come .out of it for the Ferryland District unless Greg Power is elected." That is marvelous stuff for a Premier of a province. AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudible) • MR. DAWE: Yes, the Liberals want to get back to it, they want to use the public funds again to finance their campaigns. 3184

April 2, 1974 Tape no. 1057 Page 3 He went on, ;'Unless you vote £or my -man, you will be out in the cold for the next four years, Qne year for every time you turn me dawn ... That is Hilterism. He reminded all his audiences; "I will know this time exactly how you voted. The votes are being counted in the polling stations and on the night of the election I will know what settlemen .ts were for me enc,\ ·what ones were againat me. Any settlement which su.pports me by voting for Grei Power ,will be helped by my government. Tho.se settlements wbicQ vote against Greg Power will get nothing, absblutely nothing." . Be went on then, of course, . to degrade 3185

April 3, 1974 Tape No. 1058 NM - 1 Major Peter Cashin who was running against Greg Power and so on. It is all outlined here. That is the kind of tactics we had to put up with in the past. I would be frightened, Mr. Speaker, I think to know that any administration, whether it is this one or any other one, would have control directly by providing the funds to a certain candidate to run in an election. What a threat! What a whip! What a club to hold over any person~ Can you not imagine if some person like ioe Smallwood were to take charge of the administration, I can imagine now exactly,what would happen.

There would be no need for an election .. because all the members opposing would be threatened off by the non- availability of funds. But in those days they had unlimited funds. They.could lay their hands on any amount of cash. They could splash where they felt like it. They had money to buy cars, to hire persons, unlimited cars. -I have seen in the District of Harbour Main on several different occasions where there were as high as eighty cars hired by the ~iberal candidates, supposedly to transport persons to the poles but in actual fact it meant that they were buying votes.

Not only did they hire a car, they hired a person to go along in the car along with the driver. That meant one extra vote or at least they thought it did. On polling day alone we saw an expenditure often well in excess of $4,500 for cars only. Now if wewere to use that sort of thing as a guideline, as a yardstick, and if we were to introduce legislation and pass it to the effect that candidates will be financed, · where do you draw the line? How much do you give them? What do we recommend?

Would the Liberals who have been so used to campaigning in this fashion, would they settle for a paltry $2,000 to go out and fight a campaign? l doubt very much, Mr. Speaker, especially in view of the fact that they already owe $500,000. Of course this is not to ~ention the four by eight (I must mention again) coloured posters which were in every nook and cranny in the district during the election, expensive posters, four by eight with 3186

April 3, 1974 Tape No. 1058 NM - 2 colour pictures. Each one cost perhaps $50 or $60 1 and it might be· ' even a conservative estimate then. We were never so fortutiate as to know or have the opportunity to know what such posters cost, Mr. Speaker, because every time·l ran and every time I supported anybody who did run we had to be contented with the printed posters, the Tory blue on white. MR. NEARY: Who got the member to resign? MR. DAWE: I did not resign yet. MR. NEARY: No, but Saunders did. Who.bribed Saunders? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! AN HON. MEMBER: We are not debating Saunders. MR.

DA~E: ~ot only that, Mr. Speaker, I know one Liberal candidate who splashed around quite a sum of money during the October 1971 election campaign.

I know one candidate, Sir, who having been approachea"by a constituent in an effort to have something done with a local road which actually did not go anywhere except to perhaps his potato garden, he was asked by this particular candidate how much it would cost and he said; ''Well, I do not know, a couple of hundred dollars I suppose," whereupon the candidate puts his hand in his pocket and hauled out a magnificient sum of money and passed• him over $250 and told him to get it done hi~elf, That is a prize example of paying for your votes. MR. NEARY: Who paid Saunders? AN HON. MEMBER: None of your business. MR.

DAWE: This is only an example, Sir, of the sort of spendthrift bunch who were on this side of the House before us and who had no concern whatsoever for money, contributed funds or government funds or whatever. These are the people vho now want the public of this province to pay their way the next time. But now, Sir, that their re­ sources are gone, that their pot is dried up, now that they are in the hole $500,01)(),they are all for a motion which a few years ago they turned dawn flat . 3187 ...

April 3. 1974 Tape No. 1058 NM - 3 The taxpayers of this province. Mr. Speaker. are not ~oing to stand for this Legislature to institute legislation which will ultimately cause an increa~e in taxation just so that we can perhaps even pay off.as they no doubt expect. the $500,000 which they owe. MR. NEARY: Whe,re did the $2,500 come from for the stadium? MR. DAWE: I am sure they would be happy if the Minister of Finance were foolish enough to go down to his office and have his staff type out a cheque for the $500,000 to pay their debts. That would be lovely,would it not? MR. NEARY: Where did the $2,500 come from?

MR; DAWE: I do not think they have a fool on a hook though. They are just going to have to pay it off the best way they can. MR. NEARY: That is speculation. MR. DAWE: Of course no doubt a goodly sum of that $500 1 000 was as a result of election campaign expenses in the last by-election down in Hermitage. They are not above spending huge sums of money either, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Tell us about the bridge in Manuela. 3188

April 3, 1974. Tape 1059 RH - l The bridge in Manuels has been taken care of, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DAWE: You would love to know~ would you not, Mr. Speaker, I am certainly in favour of the principle of the motion before the House. I cannot agree with the amendment to it because we have already been, well, practically,liscussing this now for a good part of thirty days.

I do not see how we could possibly bring in legislation which would go through this House, not this type of legislation where every member wishes to express his opinion on it.- thirty days certainly is not realistic whatsoever, But I agree with the resolution, the principle. I would support it whole­ heartedly if it were amended to the effect that there would be con­ trols · and not necessarily public financing.

I like the idea of regulatory legislation, I do not think it is fair to the people of this Province to have two parties going out during a campaign and splashing unlimited funds around with no con­ cern for anybody only themselves. Really, Mr. Speaker, when the election is over, having spent such huge funds, is it really the consensus of the people that the party who actually won was their real choice or in such circumstances would it be a matter of just being bought? I would go to the electorate at any time, Mr.

Speaker, with no more than $2,000.00 and at the present time we have a fair sized district, It stretches for about twenty-five or thirty miles, somewhere in the vicinity now of 11,000 voters, We do not have to be extravagant. All we have to do it get out and meet the people - give them our programne and what we would propose to do for them. Ve do not have to buy them, Mr. Speaker, and we have not yet, A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR •. DAWE: Ve talk of and defend democracy, Mr. Speaker, but is it ... really democracy if you go out hoping to buy your way,which is not, surely is not the way in which it works.

There is no wonder, Mr. Speaker, that people are critical of elected representatives. They have seen a tremenduous display,over the past twenty-three years prior to this administration, of spendthrift and waste and buying and coercion. We 3189

April 3, 1974 . Tape 1059 RB_; 2 cannot blame them re-ally for l,eing suspicious. Perhaps it would be worthwhile, Mr. Speaker, if we considered setting up a committee to look into this situation, to bring forth recoll'Dllendations, study it. Perhaps a committee could be set up, give them a period of time, let them bring back their reconnendations. Perhaps we will get something concrete out of it, something worth­ while. Mr, Speaker, I cannot go along with the amendment to this resolution. .

I think it is completely ludicrous., I cannot fully go along with 'the resolution itself because as I have stated I do not believe that our people should be paying my way to a seat in this Rouse .• If anybody sho.uld pay perhaps it should be the mewnbers them- selves. Therefore, 3190

April 3, 1974 Tape 1060 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker, shall vote against the amendment. I feel compelled to also vote against the resolution. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Green Bay. MR. A. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I Just want to say a few words on the motion and the amendment that was put by the Leader of the Opposition. AN HON., MEMBER: MR. PECKFORD: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. PECKFORD: Inaudible. There is the expert on rules again, Mr. Speaker. Inaudible. The whole problem with the amendment on this resolution is one that I referred to in a previous speech in this House.

It is simply this; that some time ago the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture introduced a bill in this Ho.use to rationalize the forest industry, to bring some sense of stability to it, to reorganize it. The Forestry Bill is one of the most important pieces of legislation to ever come before any House of Assembly in the last ten or fifteen years. This bill the Opposition would prefer to have - AN BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. PECKFORD: I am trying to make a comparison, Mr. Speaker, between that and the amendment put forward by the Leader of the Opposition.

Now the Leader of the Opposition wants this present election expenses thing to be discussed and for legislation to ~-e brought to the House within thirty days. There is no election in sight for a year, a year and a-half, two years,perhaps longer, Mr. Speaker. We have plenty of time,as honourable ... members,for all of us to discuss this matter thoroughly, to perhaps incorporate parts of Bill C 203 from