Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 11A (25th Legislature, 1st Session)

25-1-11a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Thursday, November 6th, 1958. Opening prayer read by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: P�esenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports of Standing and Select Committees DR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the fourth report of the select special committee. MR. CLERK: Your select special committee beg leave to present the following as their fourth report. Your committee has considered Bill Number 8,

an Act to provide assistance to farmers in establishing, developing and operating their farms, and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. All of which is respectfully submitted. DR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, that the report of the committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote, declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills Orders of the Day HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier): Mr.

Sneaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I think the members of the House and citizens of the province at large would be glad to know of this letter, which I have just re ceived from the Honourable R.L. Stanfield, the Premier of Nova Scotia. He writes: "Dear Premier Roblin, The people of· Nova Scotia appreciate greatly the generosity of your province in donating $10,000.00 towards the Springhill disaster relief fund. The need in Springhill is very great, and lv'J.anitoba' s contribution will help to meet this gr�at need.

I would be grateful if you would make it known of your government, and indeed to the people of the much we in Nova Scotia appreciate this assistance. R. L. Stanfield. 11 to the members province, how Yours sincerely, MR. A. A. TRAPP (Lac du Bonnet): Before the Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I V>muld like to direct· a question to the Honour able the Minister o"f Agriculture. Several days ago a request was made for the tabling of infor mation, or rather correspondence between the Federal Government 1

MR. TRAPP (Conti nued) and the Provincial Gove rnme nt , on the ma tte r of farm cre di t . I would like to know if th at will be ta ble d in due course ? HON . ERRICK F. \viLLI S, Q. C. (Mini st er of Agric ultu re and Im migr ation ): I've ·were just in doubt sl i�:,_;htly, in re gard to the conse nt of th e Federal Gov ernment , beca use you have to alw ays get that . But as I have now, today , disc ov ered the re is but one le tte r which point s to the f0ct th at fed eral officials are goi ng to be in Winnip eg an d will disc uss the Act wit h me . That is the only le tte r.

We wil l be gl ad to ta ble it . :MR. E. GUTTOK.IvlSON (St . Ge orge ): Mr. Spea ker , I1 d li ke to di rect a ques t ion to the Hono urabl e First Minist er . Is it his int en tion if·t he Hou se , th e work of the Ho use hasn't fi nish ed tomorrow afte rno on, to sit tomor row nig ht? And if so , if we have n't fi nish ed th e work Friday night , has he any int en tion of sit ti ng Satu rday? · MR . ROBLI N: I'm afraid we 1l l just have to se e what progress we make , Mr.

Sp eaker , bef or e I can give a pos itiv e an sw er to those st at emen ts, th ose re ques ts. l'v1FL GUTTORJVlSO N: A su bseq uen t qu est ion I'd like to ask , I'd like to direct one to the Mi nist er of Public Utilit ies . Has the gov ernment gi ven any consid er ation to expanding the pr esent policy of construc ti on, te l ephon e constr uc tion to rur al su bscr ib ers? HON . JO HN CARROLL (Mini st er of Public Utili ties ): You mean are we going to change the poli cy, the pol icy that 's been in forc e? We have n't as yet chan ged any policy with re gard to the expa nsio n of telep hone servic e.

No. !viR. GUTTO��NSON: But are you consid erin g changin� it ? M� . RO BLI N: •••..••• mem bers of the governme nt what advic e they are going to giv e the Crown . MR . 1'-1. A. G'J..AY (I nks te r): Mr . Speake r , may I ask a question of the Honou rab le First Min ist er alon g th e lines the hon our abl e mem ber has as ke d. Spe aking for my self , I woulc-1 ra th er post pone ti ll Mo nday th an sit on Satu rday . Let 's hav e one Sabbath fre e pl ease . MR. RO BLIN� I'll keep that in mind , Mr . Speak er . HON . ST EvvART E. McLEAN (Mini st er of Educati on ): !vir.

Speaker , I move, sec onded by the Honou r(lb le the Minist er of Agric ultu re that :tv'lr. Sp eake r do now le av e th e chair , and the House resolve it self int o com mi ttee to consid er th e fol lov .rin!I bil ls , #2

an Act to amen d the Publi c Sch ools Act , #8,

an Act to prov id e financi al assist ance to farme rs . Hr. Spea ker pr esent ed the motion and follm Hing a voic e vot e, dec lared it carr ied. 2

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Matthews please take the Chair. M.i.l. CHAIR.NA N:

Section 482 of the Bill • .MR. D. L. CA!vlPBELL (Leader of t}le Opposition ) : Mr . Chairman, I understand that this is the only

section of the bill that has not been finally dealt with in committee of the whole. Is that correct? This is the only

section of ••••• MR. CHAIR�!AN: Yes. The only

section of the bill what •••• . MR. ROBLIN : It was requested last night by the honourable the member for Rhineland that this

section should stand to enable my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition and others to debate it, which we agreed to do . MR. CAJI-iPBELL: I appreciate the consid eration of the committee in letting it stand, because I found it absolutely imPos sible to be here last night bec'ause of a previous commit ment. Non-political, I might say . And I wanted to, as I mentioned in the special comm ittee sit ting, I wanted to make some further remarks in connection with the matter of grants. And once again it1s our old friend "regulations" that I am referring to.

I understand th at Clause "A" of Sub-section 1 has been amended by striking out the words, "such amount as is stated in the regulations. '1 Is that correct 'j Now, what I would like to suggest, is that the same thing, exactly the same th ing be done in the next sub-section.

And my reason for suggesting that, in addition to the general question of having the Act leave so much of the business to the Lieutenant-Governor in-Council by regulation, is that, I think that, when there's so much attention being paid, and properly so, to the size of the grants that will be made available under this changed or extended policy, that it would be entirely approp riate to have the actual amount stated in the Act, or percentages, because I call the committee's attention to the fact that so long as the words in the fifth and sixth line of B, Claus e B, of Sub

section 1, remain in effect, that there is no commi tment whatever in this Act, that these percentages that are mentioned immediately thereafter will be paid, because the wording is th at, "toward pay ment of the approved exnenses incurred in each year by the board of the division, and the board of each school district included in the division, for the purposes hereinafter in this clause mentioned, such amounts as may be deacribed--prescribed in the regulations, but not exceeding in respect of any such approved expenses the following percentages thereof .' ' And then it goes on with the lOO perc entum, 75 percentum, et cetera. · I would think, Mr.

Chairman, that in a matter so important as this, that the policy having already been decided and enunciated by the �1inister and the gov �rnment, that there would not only be no objection to putting in the actual percentages that are to be paid, but that they would be quite prepared to do it as they were in the first sub-section . And consequently I have an amendment prepared along that line . 3

MR. CAMPBELL (C ont in ued ) Wh ile I am sp ea kin g th ough , I would li ke to refer to th e next page , top of the page, sub-c la use 9, where the pe rc en ta ges for the cost of each new se condar y sc hool build irtg is set for th . I rea l ize that this has alr eady been discu ss ed in the sp ec ial comm itt ee, but I would li ke to a�a in reit er at e th e poin t that I was tr yin g to make th ere .

That I think that the gr aduat ed sc ale s, and I know that I do not expre ss the una nimous vie w of my own group on th is , because th ere' s roo m for hones t diffe ren ces of opinion, of cour se , as to how th is shoul d be appr oached .

In my opinion , th e fact th at we ha ve the gradu at ion in the amount th at is contribu t ed toward construc ti on et cete ra of the sec ondary sch ool buil din gs is a gradu ation where the la rg er the sc hool the hig her the p�rc en tage that is pAid; th at it will add to th e cen tr alizing effect th at I feel quit e sur e a lot of th e pArts of this prov in c e will not want to se e in for ce. As far as I am con ce rned , I would pre fe r to see a fla t ra te, - as ge nerou s as po.s sible of cours e - but st il l a flat ra te , paid for all the vari ous sizes of secon dary scho ols .

Ho wever I real ize th at th is has been de al t with quit e ext en siv ely al rea dy, and I do not pr opose to mov e an ame ndme nt on it at thi s ti me . I me nt ion it si mp ly ind in rega rd to rev ert in g to th e oth er one , I offe r to you as an ame nd me nt , Mr.

Cha irm an , sec onded by th e honourab le the mem ber for Rh inelan d , th at the words , "such amount as may be pr escr ibed in the reg ulat ion s, not exc eedin g, " I've put those in quotat ion marks , th at the wor ds , quota ti on , "s uch amo unts as may be pr escr ibed in the re gulat ion s, not exc eed in g" quotation marks , be struc k out of li nes fi ve an d six of cl ause B, of sub -se ctio n 1, of se ct ion 482. I mo ve that , as an ame ndment , sec onded by the ho nourab le the memb er for Rhin ela nd . HR. CHAIRrvlAN: Pr ese nted the mo ti on .•.• S and 6 Clause B.

MEL ROBLIN: I wonder if th ose are the rig ht li nes , vrhat are the numbers in th e bi ll ? ONE OF THE MEMBE,ZS: 13 and 11+. MR. CIINPBELL: se ct ion . •••• I am in te res ted •.... in lin es of the sub - lviR. McLEAN: Mr. Cha ir m an , as a mem ber of an an cien t and honourab le pr ofes si on, I am just as much opposed to reg ulat ions as an yone else. How ever , in th is mod ern day and age , it' s a well knownfact tha t it is neces sary in many in s ta nc es , to pr ovide for mat te rs by way of reg ulat ion.

I th in k however that V�re may corr ectl y say that in th is bi ll we have gone as far as has eve r be en done be fore in any piec e of le gi slat ion hav in g to do with the Publi c Schools Act , .to eli m in at e the use or th e abuse of reg ulat ions, and in ma ny in st anc es hav e soe lled out in th e for m of the st atut es the pr ovi sion bein g pr ovided for . In th is in st anc e, howeve r, we consider that it is nec essary to ma in ta in in the Act , the pr ovision s, suc h as appea r in the origin al bill , and for that reason we are opposin g th e am en dm en t which has bee n offered .

There are two ge neral argu men ts on the mat te r. First is that 4

MR. MCLEAN (Continued) the weight of experience and usage is that .it should be provided for by regulation. As I pointed out in th� House the other day, the matter of school grants.has always beeri a matter of regulation and is so provided for in the present Public Schools Act.. I Pointed ou.t .that in the instance of

part 17, which provides for secondar""y school areas not only ar� the g:rants provided by regula tion but indeed, the whole body of �he s·cheme is in •• is set out by regulation and the

section 340 is littl(;'! more than an enabling

section to allow the Lieutenant Governo� irt Council to make regula tions in effect, by order-in-council to · .set out the whole law, in a sense as it applies to secondary school areas. So tha't the first point is that on the basis of the experi·ence and the usage that has been accepted that is what has beeri done before and I am certain .that those opposite who are now anxious to prescribe or limit the use of regulations would not have done so if they hadn't felt that it was necessary in the interests of goodadministration.

There is however another point that.I would want to make, because this suggestion was raised in, Qn, I believe on second debate, .on sec .ond reading, and imtnediate;Ly after that we began to consider from all.possible angles, the m�tter of limiting the use of regulations insofar as

section 482 is concerned. There was no problem with respect to sub .. clause (A.) l;>e� ause that is a once only grant that ct:;n easily·be fixed and there was really no object in referring to regulations there. Howeve�, with respect to the other grant's, and we examined it from every possible aspect to consider what would be the effect if we took out ·t'he provision for providing grants by regulation, and in every case,• our conclusion, it was abundantly eVidenced that we might be writing in a factor which would make it impossible to properly control the grants to be'made.

In other words that we would be writing into the bill a sort of, in a sense an escalator clause which we .c.Ouldn t t control, we, or whoever might be here, couldn' t control . at a later time. Because, of course, it's not suggested, 'it has never been suggested, that under any and all circumstances that the provision, the amount of money provided from the provincial treasury should always keep going up. There will always have to be ·some control. The effec tive control, of course, are the votes cif _the people of Manitoba.

They judge how we administe:r their monies. and to what extent we provide money for education, and we hav!:\'·indicated what the policy of the government is vv'ith t'espect to that • We, of course, are going to carry out that policy and intend to do so in the fu ture. But to not give us any '· latitude', if you :want to us-e that term, would be to make it extremely difficult ·to. exercise any control over monies that would be required for this purpose.

So it is for that reason that I. do.oppose the amendment Cl.nd say to the Ho:use that we carinot acce.pt it. · �[fm not certain whether it's necessary for me to say anything with respect to the second poirit<·cdncer'ning the capital. construction con'trJ.bution for secondary schools, beyond-pointing this out, that in the interim report of the Royal Co:m:t:1ission - which was.a unanimous report - as shown on paf:e 57, the recommend:ation of ·the commission was that certain grants up to 75%, or, at le�st b�:ing 75% to be paid to high schools of not less than twelve cla�srooms.

And that was confirmed further on page 93 when the recommendation of 75�� for 5

�ffi. McLEAN (Con t in ued ) constr uct ion of hig h schools was rec ommen ded. Now this re port is a �na ni mous rep ort. The chairman of the Com mis sion, the for mer Dep uty Ministe r of Educat ion in this prov in ce, Dr. Cuddy , a memb er of th e comn1i ssi on who ha s been, I thi nk, for a li fet ime associ at ed wit h educati on in Manit oba ; Br oth er Bruns who has been a sc hool pri nc ipal , a hig h school pr in c,ipal; Iv'lr's. vvood who has been a school te ache r ver y mu ch in t ere ste d in educ at ion, and Mr.

St efan Hans en, and rep re sen ti ng, I thin k it may be fai rly sai d , all sh ades of opi nion , ce rta inly from var ious view poin ts an d th at is th ei r unanimous re com me ndat ion . Now we hav en 't gon e as far as th at rec ommen dation . We are , it is tr ue , prov idin g th e la r gest assis tan ce for the twelve roo m or more high school but we hav e gradua te d th at ass ist an c e so th at in plac es where it is cons idered not adv is able to construct a lar ger hig h sc hool , th ey will re cei ve not the hig h amount but mo re th an th e basic su ppor t of 40%.

And in the scale which has been now adopt ed by the sp ec ial comm itt ee th ere is no in cen ti ve to a school di strict or school divis ion to const ru ct more cl as sro oms than th ey would ne ed , be cause as th ey go up in si ze, the contrib u ti on re quired goes up pro port ion at ely , alt hough it de crea ses , that is to sa y, as th ey reach this upper li mit the sch ool division does rec ei ve be tte r assis ta nc e in a sense th an they would for a lo wer scho ol. But it is in some resp ect s per haps a better sca le in that sense th an the one ori gin ally pro pos ed.

It is our bel ief th at_ex pe rien ce will show th at the larg er schools will be req uired not be cause people will be brou ght from larg er ar eas but be cause more child ren will be at ten di ng sch ool from the exis t in g are as. Vie mu st n 1t overl ook th at factor that this plan in one des igned to ma ke hig h sch ool educat ion ava ilable to a la rger numb er of boys and gi rl s. And from the , as it were , the te rr it or ie s which are now re ason ably adjac en t to high schoo ls , th ere will come a larg er and larg er numb er of boys an d girls .

And that in itself will req uire la rger scho ols , asi de al togethe r from any ce ntr al izin g effec t th at this mig ht hav e. MR. CAMPB ELL: If th e mem ber v,rill per mit me , in as mu ch as I hav e been mov in g this mot ion, I th in k I can sta t e the rema inder of my argu me nt ve ry quickly and per haps the Ivlini ste r would pr efe r to deal with one at a ti me.

I want to th ank the Mini st er for his exp lan at ion beca use I thin k I can compl ime nt hi m mo st si nc erel y on atte mpt in g to look at these que st ions th at are ra ise d on thei r merit s an d to give the ve ry bes t explan at ion he ca n for ei th er meet ing the m or not me etin g th el.l as see ms th e be st to his judgme nt . I can sa y quite fra nkly th at I thin k the Mini st er has mad e an exc el len t job of pi lot in g the bill th rough the Hou se , th rough the comm it tee .

I congrat ulat e him not only on his inte rest in it but on his ca pability in advoc at in g the var ious prov isi ons of it , and I cert ai nly don 1t v.rant to impe de the prog re ss of th e bill at th is stage. Howeve r , be caus e my hon ourab le fr ien d is so wel l in formed on these ma tters and I shall say no mo re about the constr ucti on grants , I know it doe sn 't pro per ly ar ise und er this mot ion, exc ept to sa y that I giv e the Mi nist er cred it for not acc ept ing th e rec omme ndat ion in full of the Royal Com m iss ion, be cause I th in k this is bette r in my opin ion, th an v1hat 6

�ffi. CAMPBELL (Co ntin ued) they recormnended and th ere 'ar-e other. cases where their recommenda tion ha,.sn't been accepted • . ·. · .. And all I'm s uggesting is that we might get a little further ·.·.away from it than my honoura ble friend is doing. However, th at f s . · all the point .I w1.sh to make on that .. But in regar d to this .. one, Mr. Chair-man, !'m sur e that it is the Minister's intention to .. P-"·Y the percentages set out here. I 'm sure that that is the intention and, if it t s the intention, then I think it's better for ev�rybody concerned to state it without this qualifying phrase.

Be9ause, and ! recognize what my honour able friend has said, the force of what he said with regard to the necessity of some regulatory power. But if he will look at the first sub-clause under :1.1b11, I submit to you that he do esn't . need for regulation purpos e 's any 'elbow' room whatever on that one because what (

i) says lOO percentum of the actual salary paid to each teacher, the authorized teacher and the authorized, number of teachers but not exceeding. : the amount applicable to that te ach er as set out in the scale of · grants prescribed in the regulat ions. So on that one, which is ail: extremely important one of course, · on that sub-clause (

i) there is a.regulation in that sub-clause by itself to take care of any. of those 'elbow' rooms that he might need in that regard. Then the 75 percentum of the maintenance of school in ( ii), that one Lam sure is already covered under a

section dealing with the approved costs. And so all along the line, th Ej! (iii ) 60 percent UJJ1, etc., 11as required or authorized under regulations made. " You see the point is that you've got here not only regulations hut a double set of regulations because you have the controlling sub-clause with regulations in it and then several of the controlling sub-sect ions, no, clause, the controlling clause itself with regulations and then several of the sub- clauses themselves capable of regulations. Now I'm sure that my honourable friend intends to pay the amounts that are set out here.

Going on down to B( iii) and so on, 40 percentum of the cost of such capital repairs, renovations, replacements "as are approved by the Ninister. " And the one just before that, "as are ap proved by the Minister. " Vieli, I think that you've got double regulation here to provide the protection that the honourable the Minister needs. Howeve ;r, that's all I intend to say on the matter, Mr. Chairman, and we can have the vote on it so far·as I am concerned tha t's suffici ent. NR. D. ORILKOvV (S t. Joh n' s): Mr.

Chairman, it would seem to me that the Honou rable Lead·er of the Opposition doesn't understand this set-up at all. . If you assume the fact that the go vernment has not agreed to pay the full salaries or 75·% of th e maint enance of schools or .60% of the cost of transportation, that if they have not agreed to pa y the full. amount whate ver it .. may be in the particular district. · They have only agreed to p.8;y th e pe.rcentage according to the amount which they have set out as:being t he maximum allowable. Once you assume that, Mr.

Chairman,:it seems to me necessary that you must say somewhere, and if' you (3ay .it twice, I see no difference than if you say it in each sep�rate section, that you will pay ac cording to th� r�gulations. ·. Now, Mr. Chairman, ,.rhile I'm on my feet, I would like to say something although the Hon.ourable Leader of the Opposition · said he 7

V�. ORILKOW (Con tinued ) wasn 't go ing to mov e an am endme nt, I was happy to hear him say that he didn 't spe ak for his who le grou p but I wou ld lik e to say some thing abou t his rema rks abou t the grants fo r capital cost. I thou ght, Mr. Chairman, that the men bers of this House accepted in pr inciple the recom men dations of the interim rep ort of the Royal Com mi ssi on, and the bill, Mr. Chairma n. But as I listened to the Ho nourable Leader of the Oppo sit ion, it se emed to me that either he did n't unders tand the interim rep ort or els e that he actually obj ected to it .

Because the '-''hole po int of the interim rep ort and the bill, Mr. Chairman, is certainly built ar o und the idea that if we ar e go ing to have ad equ ate sec ondary edu cation, we must mo ve to wards havin g larg er sc hools with mo re cl asse s. No w the hon ou rable mem ber said I thi�k yester day in comm ittee that he thought that in a fou r- roo m high school, one cou ld provide an ad equate edu cation. 1Piell, Jvlr. Chairm an, let 1 s look at the si tuation.

If you take a high sc hool, gra de 9, 10 and ll and that 's what we will have with this se t-up, and you will take an av era ge of six su bj ects per grade - you have 18 su bj ects. No w that wo uld mea n if you had only fou r teachers that each teacher wo uld be re qu ired to teach appr ox imately fi ve cou r se s. Now I subm it, Mr. Chairman, that no teacher, I1 m not being cr itical of the jo b that's being don e. Th ey1v e don e the best that they cou ld but no teacher can be compe tent re ally to teach five co urses .

If yo u ar e go ing to have a fou r-roo m high sc hool certainly they 're not go ing to be able to do· the jo b which they can do in a larg er high sc hool where there can be more sne cializa tion. But even fo rg etting that for the mome nt, Mr. Chairman, if you have a fo ur roo m classr oo m it me ans that so many of the cou rse s which ou ght to be offere d cannot be offe red. No w, we heard this mo rning - we were in com mit tee and we heard the Pr es id ent of the Farme rs ' Union , Mr.

Pa tters on spe aking, and some of you will remem ber, he spo ke abou t the dr ift of the young people fro m the ru ra l ar eas to the city, and he po inted ou t that when they tame to the city they were unable to get sk illed work, in many case s, because of the type of edu cation which they had. vvell I submit , lvlr. Chairm an, that unles s we can �� et the ru ral ar eas to have larger high sc hools , in which you can have mo re sp ecializ ation, and mor e op tion that the young; people who ar e go ing to come into the ci ties and to wns, will not be able to get the jo bs which they will be lookin g for.

If you do n't have sho ps, if you don 't have home econ om ics , if you don 't have co ®nercia l, if yo u ar e re s tricted to tradit io nal course s, their ability to get jo bs will be that muc h les s. And, this is what the honou rable memb er is sugge sting, when he is sa ying that we ou ght not to encou ra ge the larg er high sc hool. I want to po int ou t one mo r2 thing, Mr. Chairma n, it se ems to me that one thing in which the ru ra l hit�h scho ols ou ght to be enco ura ged to rea lly pr omot e , is the field of sh o ps.

It is even mor e imp o rtant to the ru r al ar eas than to cities , because of ·what I' ve se en of a fa rm er he not only has to be -- know so me thing abou t crop s, he 1 s got to kno1:.· some thing abou t keep ing bo oks, he 's certainly cot to know a go od dea l abou t keep ing his equip me nt and m;:1 chinery in go od condition . And I can't think of a better way for him to lear n hov•T to do these things than in a mo dern 1

MR. OR.LIKOvv ( Continu�

d) well equipped shops room . And, for all these reasons, Nr.. Chair man, it seems to me t,hat we ought to be - encourage the g:cowth -- I don't say that iNe can -- I don't disagree v.lith the tc:,overnment when they reject, at .:least for the present, and maybe fo r a good long time.; the . idea that no high school shbuld be less than twelve rooms, I think that 's probably not practical at this ti me� but certainly we ought to encourage high school'3 to grow in size, and we can give all of this service we want to that idea, Mr. Chairman.

If we don't give a financial inducement to the ]_ocal area s to work for, then certainly we're not going to get it. And I certainly support this clause a s it is and reject comnletely the suggestions made bY the Honourable Leader of the Ooposit ion . MIL vV. C. :tv!ILLER ( Rhineland) : Quite frankly, I must confess that I canno t followthe argument of the honourable member for St . Johns. When he suggests that the Leader of the Opposition stated or inferred that the'teacher grants should be spelled out in leg islation, he is suggest ing the same practice that is followed no w.

And I want to ·suggest to ·my honourable friend, the Minister of Education, that there is a

section in the Public Schools Act, where the amount is sp elled out under which the great majority of the grants are pAid .. And - I'll come to that, I'll come to that . And it's under �ection 179, sub-section 3; ffunless otherwise provided, the guaranteed annual support of each school district shall be' $2,500.00 in respect of each of the authorized numbers of teache rs."· Now that is the controlling

section . Under the proposed bill, it is suggested that this

section do not apply, and all the Honourable the Leader of the Opposi tion is suggesting that the alternative formula be put in the Act. And, I suggest to you� Mr. Chairman, that such is an easy matter, because, I 'm quite sure, and I agree ·with the Leader of the Opposition when he s'uggests that the Hinister has given serious study to this bill. Vie all admit that . I want to commend him for it; but surely, after looking at the recommendations of t):le interim report, on p�ges 73 and 74, if he doesntt agree with that, I suggest to you, quite frankly, that he must have made up his mind to an alternative policy.

And that is the only thing we want to know. And that should be spelled out in the Act . Now, as my honourable friend, my impatient honourable frieni, the Hon ourable the first Minist,er refers to secondary grants, yes, those are provided by regulations . But, I also want to suggest to him - he's been in this House for some considerable time, and whenever there was a;: ch ange. contem plated, a change in grants con templated, under the regulations, what did the Minister do? In his statement to the House, he indicated the amount . That has not been done in ,:this case . · And, with all due deference tv!r.

Chairman, I think the �iniste � is in a oosition to indic�te to the House, even if he w�ntd to keep up the regulation, he is in a obsition to now -- now Mr. Cha irman, to suggest to the House vlhat he proooses to do. \Nhat is the government's alternative policy to the recom mendations of the Royal Commission? M.�. F. L. JO BIN (Flin Flon): ••••• the matter of teachers' salaries and leaving them to regulati ons ? I think it's regrettable 9

MK. JOBIN (Con tinued ) from one aspect that they vrere left to regulati ons, regrettable inasmuch as and having been in committee, inasmuch as the teachers' society did not have the onnortunity -- I think they could have if they had availed themselves of it -- but they expressed lhe opinion that they didn't have the opportunity to talk upon salaries, because that was being left to regulations. Now, I think that the committee would not have objected if they had expressed their opinions on this particular matter.

Because they didn't, and because teachers in my own constituency have asked me to mention this, I would like to point out some of the things that should have been discussed in committee, so that we, the legislators could have paid some atten tion to it. I know that the Minister will set the regulations on the salary schedule, but he'll do it after the teachers make representation to him, after the trustees make representation to him. But I suggest to this House, it would have been much better had it been in the Act so that we could have debated the Pros and the cons.

The way it1s going to end up now is that the Minister and his colleagues will decide. But, I think we could have arrived at a better solution had we di scussed the matter of the salary range, at least in the committee stage. Now, some of the things that have been brought to my atten tion, and the honourable member from Burrows raised some of these here about ten days ago, the one consideration in the table referred to on page 73 (

a) talks about present exnerience counts 50% of merit here completed to a maximum of 5 years . Teachers wonder, those teachers with twenty years experience, they ask, "what's go ing to happen to me. Do I start off at the maximum at the 5 year level?" These things weren't asked in the committee, but they are the concern of teachers. That is, a teacher with not much experience, where does he fit into the new salary schedule? The other matter that has been raised, I1ve seen reports of it in the paper, but we didn't have the chance to debate it actually, is this matt er of the variance in salary

schedule between the elementary and the secondary teacher, of the same academic standing. Some teachers, at least, object as well to the dependent allowance, between the elementary and the secondary level. Others too, we know, again from the press, oppose as being impractical the general principle of merit rating. Others it is true, think that merit rating is good, if a good system can be brought out to bring this into operation. Teachers again -- and we didn't hear this, and yet this is to be left to regulations, teachers wo nder why, the Royal Co@nission in their

schedule on page 73 and 74 should give more attention -- more provision beyond the two years of facul ty . -You'll notice in the schedules on page 72 and 73 , two years of faculty is the maximum on which merit rating -- or on which salaries can be based. That is, two years of faculty, plus whatever years of University they have . And the final observation is that the teachers in my area -- my constituency complain about is this matter of te nure.

And while I don't think that anything can be done about this without ch anging the Statutes, regulations may be able to bring about this recommendation contained on pat;e 75 of the report, and that conc erns tenure. Under that, any teacher can be bumped, if a teacher v.rith 10

MR. JO BIN (Continued ) higher qualifications comes along. That's the pure and simple truth of the matter . And, I think tE�achers generally think that a teacher th at's been teaching this year, or just the last two or three years de serves to be bumped, if they don't keep improving their standards. But, my group of teachers wonder about that particular teacher that's been in the service for 30 years, that just can't improve their standards. Are we surely by regulations, we1re not going to permit the bumping of a teacher that has been in the service for so many years?

Bump the young ones that should be improving, but let's not in regulations--and I'm not su�gesting that you're going to--but this report suggests that you do . So because the .teachers didn't say these things, and I'm not speaking for the Teachers' Society as a whole, but because they didn't s�y these in committee, because it wasn't in the bill, I at least can say them on behalf of the Teachers' Society of Flin Fl an. - J.vlR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, I am not just too certain whether the honourable member for Flin Flan desires an answer from me on the points that he has raised, and I have no desire to not take the House into my confidence . I could though, say a few thing:s on--as I've already indicated that the grants proPosed wil l follow by and large those recommended in the interim report . \Vith respect to the grants to ward teachers 1 salaries, they will not be as large as the grants recommended by the report , although the dif fe rence will not be too substan ti al .

I noticed that the ot her day I was reported as saying we were not going to have merit rating. Actually, I didn't think I said that, it was--one of the few occasions when I made a somev,rhat, I thought, innocuous statement, but the fact of the matter is that we do not propose to tie merit rating to the scale of grants . I make it clear, however, that I feel definitely that merit rating will eventually have to become pArt of the plan, and my hoPe is that we will, and I perhaps should correct another statement that was made, I don't propose to ask the Teachers' Society what they think about merit rating.

I'm going to ask the Teachers' Society to work with the Trustees Association and the DePArtment of Education to evolve what will be an acceptable system of merit rating, but for the present, we are not tying the grants to a system of merit rating. The schedule, when adopted, will include the principle of a variation between grants payable in respect of persons teaching in elementary schools arid secondary schools.

I know now that that idea will not be approved by the Manitoba Teachers' Society; I have assured them that they will have an opPortunity to make their views on that as well as ot her matters knov-Jn, and there' 11 be no desire to keep it a secret and they will have an opportunity to express their opinion.

However, I think that the reco mmendations of the interim renort have consid erable force, in th at, they point out that this particular type of grant, of making a differentiation between the grant that is paid to a teacher with a certain experience and training - if teaching in an elementary school and if teaching in a secondar�y· school, there should be a di fference, and it's based on th e theory, at least, th at this method will assist in having the qualified secondary school teachers teaching in our secondary schools. ll

Mi1. Me LEAN (Continued) The fact of the matter is that our great difficulty at the mome nt is not s.o much in obtaining teachers for elementary .t5chools, but there is a very serious sho rtage of qualified teachers for the second ary schools. And, this idea is based on the theory that it will assist in getting the qualified secondary teachers in to the secondary schools. Now, the experie nce--a year frorr. now, or two years from now, we will be much better able to say whether this--whether in actua l fact that is the result. We are, however, adopting it because it is the recommendation of the interim report.

I may say to the commi ttee that we are eliminating from t he grant schedule, the rec ommen dation with res pect to dependentsf allowances. I understand th at the best thinking is that th;tt iB not in keeping with modern views on things of this sort, and !f;O that that part 'Hill not form part of the grant .Gchedule. Then finally I think the matte r of t enure is covered by

Section 7 of the bill, particularly sub-section z, and certainly that is there to provide that teachers will continue to have the same rights, and .of co urse the matter of tenure is protected by .o ther legislation, as you indicated in the--as the honourable member for Flin Flon indicated. I think that that is perhaps, may be some explanation, it may be of some assistance to the committee in considering how the grant

schedule will look or what it will look like,, when it is actually made. MR. JOBIN: •••• the matter of tenure - \·,rhere did you say that was covered, please? MR. :tvlcLEAN: In

Section 7, it's on page 42 of the print ed bill. Although that's not the sole protection of course, the protection actually comes in, now I' m not certain what the exact name of that Statute is, where tenure of teachers is protected, and this

section is designed to just simply ensure th at the rights and--that are accrued to any individual teacher by reason of other la ws and existing contracts will continue under these division plans, without any interruption. MR. BEND: I wonder, Mr. Chairman , I would like to ask the Minister just one question . I notice he said that it was his plan not to embody the recommendati on of the commission v.rith respect to dependents1 allowa nc es. Now, does that account for the varia tion •••• that your mentioning that the grant ·will not be quite as high as rec ommended. Is that the reduction? MR.

McLEAN: \';ell, it is one of the reductions, it's not the sole reduction. We've sc aled it down a bit in some other spots, or propose t ci scale it down a bit in some other places . �t�. BEND: •••• the reduction is greater - the overall reduc- tion is greater than that amount? MR. McLEAN: That is correct, yes. 12

MR. MILLE�: .•• • just refer to the question raised by the ho nourable the member for Flin Flan.

Section 363, provides for bargaining rights and tenure and so forth . HR. G. MO LGAT (S te. �ose): •••.• in view of the co mments of the hono urable member for -- I'm sorry I don't know the constituency ••••••• St. John's. He was speaking mainly on the matter of the- what you might call the inducement grant to lar?er high sch ool s. And, I don't understand the amendment as referring to th at. It seems to me the amendment merely refers to specifying in the bill, that matter that the go vernment will pay a fixed percentage.

I just wanted to clear that up, if, because I'm sure he left the impression with the committee --the impression he left with rne was that the main purpose of the amendment was to do away with that sect ion and that's certaJ.ihly not my impression, not what I vo ted on. �lR. ORLIKOVJ: M'r. Chairman, I didn't 'l!lrant to speak twice, and so while sp eaking of the amendment I made so me comments about the sugge stion which the i10nourable Leader of the Oppositi on made about the flat grant. Certainly I understand the inducement, but I wanted to speak only on ce and I used that op por tunity.

I under stand very well what the hono urable member was suggesting. MR. CAMPBELL: M'r. Speaker--Mr. Chairman, I was the one who first inst ituted the error-because I should not have spoken on both matters at the one time but I was trying to save time and so I made the remarks while I was sneaking. But actually, of course, the amendment ·as I think, all the members are aware now, the amendment deals only with clause b of subsection 1 of 482 and just strikes out the oper ative part that deals with regula tio n says. The other

part I should have waited to speak on later. I am sor�y if I led my honourable friend from St . John's into an error in tha t regard because he certainly was in an error in his argument. MR.. CHAIRMAN: When a member who has been in th e House for 23 years admits error, it is encou ragj_ng to the new members that come al ong. In fact, I co rrected so mething here, the name and seconder, the men conc erned was getting mixed up on their consti tuencies so I checked that up with the clerk to make su re. Now are you ready for the amendment?

The amendment is as follo ws: Mov ed by the hon ourable member fro m Lakeside, seconded by the honourable member fro m Rhineland tha t the words "such amounts as may be prescribed in the regul ation not exceedj_ng" be struck out of li nes 5 and 6 of clause b of subsection l of secti on 42. MR.. McL E.AN : Should we not deal with 11a 11 first - this i'i a pro pos ed amendment to 'rbn. We haven't p;1 ssed clause "a" yet. MR . ROBLIN : •••• the whole secti on, Sir, or do we have to start from the beginning? lvlR. CH AIRlv1AN: I think we've moved alon g with the -- getting 13

down here with the dis cus sion so that 's why t}Je hono urable member from Lakesi de sl ip ped al on g to "b" which I though was go in g to be al l ri ght . Subsect ion 1 cl aus e a •• • • MR. PREFO NTAIN E : ••••• the offi d<1l name of' the Lead er of the Oppo si tion in this House should be the lv1eT'1ber for Lake si de? MR •. CHAIRM AN : I st and correcte d , the Le ader of the Opp osi ti on ••• MR. PR EFON TAINE : But his off ic ial ti tle here is not the memb er for Lake si de , it is the Lead er of the Oppo si ti on . MR . CHAIR MAN: Yes . MR .

PRE FON TAINE : And I thin k the motion should re ad mov ed by the Lea d er of the Opp osi t ion not by the memb er from Lakes ide . IvlR. CHAIRM AN: Thank you , we 'r e gett ing it rig ht now . MR. CAHPBELL : Ivlr.

Chairm an, I W:'led to say when I was occu py in g the plac e ac ross the way where my hon oura ble frien d the Fi rst Minis t er si ts now , I used to say when some of th ese ar gume nt s ca me up about whether the co rrect tt tle for the head of the governmen t in a provin c e was Pr emi er or Pr ime Mini ste r , .I UR ed to sa y that I di dn 't care which they call ed me as lon g as they calle d me ei ther one lon g en ough. But nm-r that the st r;ng has te mporar ily run out I can say that I don 't min d the leas t li ttle bi t the way in which I am refe rred to here .

Someti me s we refer to one an other in un compl iment ary te rms but , as a mat te r of fact , I un der stan d that the way I pr es en te d the mot ion, howev er , is co rr ect beca use when I wr it e in the na mes I writ e my name and the name of' the secon der not the co nst itue nc ie s, so in case they thin k I hav e been com pound in g the err or I want to put that stra ight . MlLCHAIRt, 1AN: Cla use (

a) pa sse d as ame nd ed; cl ause(

b) was ame nd - ed ea •• ••• MH.. CAhPBELL : That 's where the amendment come s in. MR. CHAI RMA N: No, b11t , it was ame nd ed before by- -aft er the word "men t ion ed but sub � ect to such a •••• • MR . RO BLIN: Iv�. Chairman , but I thin k if you put the mot ion of the Honourab1e the Lead er of the Oppo si t ion now we ca n vote on that an d then re turn to the other . MR. CHAIR MAN : Ye s, I di rln 't want any conf usion when we ca me to the other ' in thin kin g that it was this on A that was ame nde d .

The amendment mov ed by the Honou ra ble the Leader of the Oppo sition, secon ded by the memb er from Rhinelan d that the word s "such amount s as may be pr es cri bed in the reg ula tion not ex ce edin g11 be st ruck out of' lin e s 5 an d 6 of cl ause b of subsec tion 1 of se ct ion l1-82. Ar e you rea dy for the �u es tion? Those in fa vor of the amendment 14

pl ease signif Y • The cl erk co unt ed 19 in favor and 26 op posed • . Read ing o;f the bi ll was continued, and read to sub- sect ion 3. MR. TEILLET : Sir ; are we . sti ll on 482, 41 x) ? lviiL ROBLIN : No, we pa ss ed th at . MR. TE ILLET : · I was wait ing for the Cha irma n to ca ll the sche dule a, b ,c, et c ., unde r 'ix' here , and th e amendme nt s I :�eve in my ha nd . MR. ROBL! N : We ju st pass ed 'ix ' as ·a me nded , ther efore it is not nec es sary to ca ll the secti on s . MR. TEILLET : . · Because I d id want to say so met hin g about th at sc hedu le . MR.

ROBLIN : I think ther'e would be no ob je cti on, Nr . Chair man if my honoura ble frien d would wish to speak ·n ow , and even t hough it 's p� sse d we' l l reconsider it . 1-B .• TEILtET : T ha nk you Mr . Premier . I am refe rrin g

part icula rly to "h n, the 75%, and th e reaso n I br ing this up at thi s ti me is that in c ommitt ee the other ,day there happe ned to be a li ttl e co nfus ion at that ti !he and I th ink t he Mi nist er . himself felt some·what lo st in the mele e of amend!hents th at wer e surro und ing him at th at ti me and I di dn 't get a chan ce to voic e my op inions , so that I woul d like to take th e· o pportunity of doing it now. That

part i cul ar sect ion the Gover nment had preYio lll sly , or in the pri'nt ed Bill under "d" , ap pl ied a ra te · of 80% for twelve ro oms or mor e. Now I do want to make a plea her e fo r a ret 1Ur n to that amount. Fi rs tly, I do n *t th in k it wa s given suff icient co ns ider ati o n in co mmit tee and I th ink the ar ea of the prov irJ.C e which is mo st lik ely to be affe cte d by the t'l.<relve roo m class gr oup - class of sc hool , is th e suburb s and som�t ime s I am t empte d to ca ll th em the or phans of the Provin c e of Nanit oba . We have in the.

City of vvinn:i.peg two ver y pov.rerfu l daily :nel'.rs pape rs ; we h ave in rural Manit oba a. very, very stron gly and well or ganiz ed voice to speak for tho se se�tors � whe reas in the suburb s, tho ugh we do ha.ve so me very e xc ellen t and ver .y voca l week li es, the;i:.r influe nc e does not ext end ver y much beyond t he ir boundar ie s, so that ve ry oft en the voice of the suburbs is loRt a nd I th ink th<it is whe re the �c hool population probl€ m is mo st a.cut�;. · · ' , ' · · ' •· · . · · · . I think : :ft was th e Pr emi er , the ot her day , who called it - I thin k .

I, had ij�P,:rd the ex pre .ssiqn somewhet'�· else .,. but (.l. b;elieve it was he who used th e expression th at the sch ool po pulat i·o:n of the suburbs is ex pl os ive and I bel ie ve thot to be tr ue . You hav e the re, in ,the main, a popula. t i on which is y ounge r than I th ink you woul d find .any\Vhere else in the provin ce , all w:i,th growing chil dr en. They have had to go to those are as becau,se 'it, is easie r to buy home s - the new hom es, beca use of fin anc ing, the 15 .

grea t er eas e of fin ancing . They require houses of fiv e or si x rooms . Their taxes ar e proba bly the highes t that you fin d any where , some of them in some ar eas runnin g ve ry near ly to $500 .0 0. Now, those are the pe ople that are in the gr eat es t diff icu lty . They ar e the peo ple who would ben efi t very gr ea tly fr om th at cl aus e beca use I don't know of any sc hools that have been built in those ar eas recen tly that don 't come up to this 12, 1 4 an d 16 room group in g .

There , 12 rooms is not abnor mal and alt hough 5%, the dif feren ce betw een 75 % an d 80% may not nec es sar ily mean a gr eat deal to many peop le , an d I doubt if it would mean too gr ea t an amount in the ent ire sums of money for educati on, I do sugge st that it could mean a great de al to those are as , an d I do thin k that is where you vd ll fin d that cl aus e to apply with greater effect than an ywhere else . I suspected the other day that the suggest ion hn d some sympathy from the Pr emi er.

I thin k he was quit e sympat het ic to the idea and I do appeal to the Minister nov .r, and to tr'e House , to co ns ider this ver y se riousl y. It 's areas li ke the subur bs of Winnipe g, li ke the ci ty from which the Honour abl e Mini ster of Educ at ion comes from, the ci ty of Portage 1� P� airie - those would be aff ect ed , but prim arily these la rge subur bs, explosi ve suburbs aro und the City of Winnipeg who.h ave had so much tro ubl e, so much diffi cult y in this sen se . Now un fortu nat ely , I must con fe ss Mr .

Chairman, that I do not have - I would li ke to pr opose an amendment - I do not have the cons en t - I have n't con sult ed our group on this question an d I have some ser ious doubt s that I would have their entire support ; but with your per miss ion I would li ke to propos e an amendment to that cl aus e to the effect th at that fig ur e be ret urned to 80% . I therefore move , secon ded by the honoura ble member for Ste.R os e, that the word "seven ty-five" in the firs t li ne of it em 11h11 of sub-c la use ix of cl au se b subs ect ion 1 of

section 482 , I suppose I should stat e in the propos ed amen dme nt , that the word "e ighty" be subst itut ed therefor e. MR . CHAIRJvlAN : We ar e ver y glad to have his oP in ions on this , but we have alr eady pa ss ed this sub-cla use . MR. RO BLIN: Whether or not , I must co nf ess I hav en 't the ref er en ce at my finger ti ps , but is it out of order or is it in ord er? It is a fi nan c ial matter my hon ourahl e fr ien d is propos in g her e , and while I bel ie ve he is en ti tl ed to re duc e sums , I don 't belie ve he is ent itled to in cr eas e them. Nmv we could ask the cle rk to check .

I may be mis in formed on that , but at fi rst thought I'd just sa y that it is out of order on that gr ound . Jl.l:R. . TEIL LET : vvell , might I word this then, Jv!r. Chairman, "t hat the Hou'se give cons id erat ion , or the Gover nm en t give consi de rat ion to the adv is ab ility of ". Would that lo ok aft er that ? M,q_. ROB LI N: I' m not cle ar . I must co nf ess -t his is alw ays a tri ck y poin t . I know that in re sc1u tio ns 'g ive con s idera t ion to the advisability of 1 , cl ears the thin g . �hether 16

it does in this

part icu lar inst anc e I ' m not cl ear , and my impr e ss ion is y it does not cl ear it , but I would : b e willin g ce rtain ly to listen to any obinion there might be on that . Pe rhaps the Cler k would look it up , an d fi nd out whet her �"'e are ri ght or v.rron g on it , and g et it stra ight . MR. TEI !..LET : Mr . Chairma'n, I thi n,k I would be quit e sat isfie d to ac cep t a rulin � 'of the Chai� on th is .

I don 't know - I c erta inly would li ke the opportu n it y of br in ging it before the Hous e, on the other hand of a vote fro � the Hous e, but on the other hand , if I am out of order , I will. acc ep t the rul in g from the Chair . JviR. T.P . HIL LHOUSE , Q.C. (S elkir k) : Jvlr. Chairman , while the Cl erk is loo king up his ruling on this

part icular point , an d subj ect to whatever rul in g the Clerk may, give , and subj ect to what ev er disp osi ti on the Committ ee may make , I would li ke to suppo rt the hon ourabl e memher for St . Bonif ace in his submi ss ion to the Committ ee . I have in my own co nisti tuency - now ju st to give the Contrnittee an idea of what this 5% is goin g to mean. I have in my own const ituency one sc hool , the co nstru ct ion of which will start early in April next year . That school is goin g to cos t ;�3 20 , 000. 00 . No,�r 5 % me ans .� 16 , ooo .. oo to thAt distri ct - well 5 % more . And I feel too , Mr.

Chairman , that we 'r e perhaps get t in g p.way fro m the in duc ement and I ,don 't urge the fin anc ial induc ement as the only co n sider at ion fdr ad op t ing the rec ommend at ion s of the Royal Commissi on . I thin k the prim ary in duc ement is the be nefit to the childr en . But I do say this , that peoo le ar e prac tica l , an d the fi nanc ial in duc eme nt is going to be a big consi derat ion in whatever decis ion thev . moke in for mi ng those larger groups . And I would urge the Gov er nme nt , if it ca n fin d a way of re chan gin g this back to 80 % --to _ chanfl'e it . MR. E.R.

SCHRE Y'ER (B roken head ): Mr. Chn irman , I would jus c like to co mmen t bri efly on that al so . !t see ms to me that one of the more importan t asp ects of this Bill was that those cl aus es which were de al in g with the perc en ta ge gr an ts for constru ct ion , indu ci ng the are as to build bigger s cho6l s , an d I thin k that we were pr etty wel l all in ag re eme nt that there are cer tai n in heren t advan ta ges in hav in g .l arger school s. And i.t see ms to me that with the ame ndment now befor e us that ·we are ge tt in g away fr om th at .

I would mer ely li ke to emol)hsiz e al ong with the Memb er for Se lki rk th at ·the 1-1ini ster should try an d fi nd some way to get back to the orig in al . �·tR. McLEAN: Nr . Chairmar., jp. st dne' thing so t won 't hRve to co rrect Ha nsard tomorrov·i. I d on ' t \-rant an ybody accus in g me of co mint; f�o m> Portage .lR. Pra i!'ie . Thq.t 's a fi .ghtinp· acc usa t ion where I come 'f!'o m. No'lftr, Hr .

Chai:rman, ·· r think, to se t the recor ds stra ight , you will recall we had con s ider abl e disc ussion on this . point when in the sp ec ial commi ttee , and I broug ht in for the co mmit tee t s co nsider at ion, a sc hedule \Jirhich nov·T forms part of the - which is the amen dme nt . But you V�.rill also reca ll that I sai d to the Committ ee th at so far as the Gove rnment v.'as

co nc er ned , we we re prep ared to st ay with the gran t sc hedul e we had in the ori gin al bi ll , up to SO% , or, if the Committe e pr efe r:r-ed, we would adopt the other sche dule which goes .to 75%. And it was the decisi on of the Committee to adop t that sched ule , and that 's where we are . Now, we had the se disc us sion s an d I' m as suming that ev er yone was be ar ing in min d the al te rn at ive s.

I appr ec iat e the arg ument made , very forc ibly by some , th�t if you make an y diff eren ce , that is an y di ffer en c e be tween 40%, whic h is the basic grant , and any larger amount , of course you ap pear to be in ducin g or en c ouragin g peop l e to build large r sc hools . And there are those here who don 't fe el that 's a go od thin g.

So that if it was app ar ently the opinion of the Committee that 75% graduated as we hav e it in this sca le , was a fair proposal to not make the induc eme nt too grea t , an d yet at the same ti me to put it on a fair basis as sc hools moved up from 4 to 5 an d so on up to 12 rooms . Now I' m ra ther in clin ed , perhaps , to sa y that we should stay with the sc hedul e the commit tee ag re ed on, alt hough I was willin g and the Govern men t was willin g to hav e ad opt ed the other sched ule , in fact that was the on e we put fo rward , and I so st ated to the Committ ee . MR .

GUTTORM SON : I would li ke to direct a que st ion to the Minist er . If this amend men t that has been just proP ose d was pa ss ed , would it aff ect the other - it wouldn 't affect the other s in any way would it ? !VIR. McLEAN : No, this has only to do wit h constru ct ion grants for high sc hools . MR . GUTTORI'-ISON: No , what I mean t to sa y, would it affect all the rest of the school s und er the co nstr uct ion grant s? MC . McLE AN : Oh, well , I' m sor ry I' m-- that 's up to the Commit tee .

I as sume that you want to -- we we nt to some tr oubl e to work out this scale which se emed to be fair and not give an undue pref eren c e merely beca use you mov ed up to the next bracket so to · speak . And the - if you change the top amount , then you would possi bly wish to ch an ge al l of the from 'a' to 'h' , but •... MR . TEIL LE T : Wel l, l-fr. ChRirman , cer tai nly the pur no se of the ••• Oh, I' m sorry . MR . ROBLI N: Mr .

Chairman is rea dy to rul e now an d we can hear what the rulin g is an d see where we go fro m there . :tvhL CHAI �UJlAN: Pr ivat e members may in tro duc e res olu t ions that do not dire ctly in volve the exPe n di ture of public money and have no operat ive effect , but simply express an ab stract oninion on a mat ter which may nec essi tate a futur e gran t . MR . ROBL I N: lvir. Chairma n? -I don 't kn 0\17. \Mould that be your onin ion, 18

l•lR. CHAIR MAN : I- I, that 's my ooinion - that 's my decision on the matte r . It 's quit e out of order no ,.,1 we 'v e pa sse d this . MR . :MILLER : Mr . Chair man, I - if we re f'er to our rules , or the appen di x theret o, the word in g of , on page 62, is the same as the Chairman re ad , and then it goes on- -" the foll owing phraseol ogy could be con sidered . as ab str� ct in deal in g with �x pen di ture of public money ". In the opinion of thi s Hous e the Govern men t should give co nsi de rat ion to the adv is ab il ity of .• MR .

RO BLI N: I'l l admit this is alway s a di fficult poin t to decide , but .it see ms to me that if th e hon ourable member 's res ol ut ion was put an d carried , that it isn 't any abst ract res olu ti on at al l. It 's a posit ive pFtrt of the bi ll and will hav e an effect on the res olu t e in that way . And I thin k , I must co nf es s, I' m not co nsid erin g the me rit s of the case be ca use they 'v e been exp ressed by the Minist er .

We 'v e been through that ar gument - I won 't re peat it , but I do rea lly thin k that it is out of order an d the Chair ma n has rul ed in that way an d if th e Committ ee would li ke to vo te, we could dec ide what we think . But I thin k it 's out of orde r . MR . TEIL LET : I as ked it simply to cl ear the matt er . I accep t the Chair 's rulin g in this que st ion , an d I wil l withdraw the amendme nt , an d would ; if I may just cont in ue for a secon d, appeal to the Min is t er of Education to recon si de r this port ion for the next sessi on of the House.

I would want to ex pr ess my re gre ts to him if I did actu ally say - I ce rta inly had no in te nt ion of plac in g the hon ourable mini ster in Portage la Prair ie , an d for the sake of Han sard , I will rep eat what I thought I had said , - "th e hon oura bl e minist er 's ci ty as well as Port age la Pr air ie .

J.Vd .• CAMPBELL : On the poin t of order , I thin k th at the decis ion is quit e O.K. here , but ina smuch as Chai rman 's dec is ions like Spe aker 's deci si on s , be come to some ext ent ·a pr ec eden t , an d as le ast the sa me Chairman would feel that he was bound by them la t er on , I thin k we should be clea r' oh what we want to do in thi s matte r . Now, I ag ree complet ely with the First. Mini ste r that it is no t within the compe t en ce of a pr ivat e memb er to move a vo te, a mo ti on or a res ol ut ion that wi ll in crease or req uire expe n di tures by the Crown .

But ..:. an d to the ext en t that the honourabl e memb er would tr y to put 80 in inst ead of 75, then I would thin k that this is out of order . But on the other hand so lo ng as the honou rab le member was pr epare d - an d I kn ow that that coul dn' t be don e with re gard to this par ti cular bi ll in this way - but so lon g as he is prepared to mov e at some other and ap pr opr i�t e ti �e , the abetra ct res olu ti on sa ying that the Gove rn men t should co ns ider the adv is ability of doin g it , then I' m sur e that I wo uld con ten d that that would be in orde r .

Quit e fran kly, I don 't see how it could be intr oduc ed at this st age . MR . ROB LIN : I1 ve sai d , and there 's ce rtain ly no in te nt ion 19

on my part , an d I� m sure none on the part or the Chairman to abr ogat e in any way our cust omary proc edure OI in tr oduc in g so called abstract re solu ti ons . The re ma inder OI the Bill was pa sse d an d allo wed to stan d. MR . CHAIRM AN : Bill No . 8,

an Act to provide assis ta n ce to rarmer s in es ta bli shin g , dev il opin g and ope rat in g th�ir Iarm •. Mr. Chairman re ads Bill

section by sect ion an d the co mment s and ame ndme nt s Iollow. MR . R. PAULLEY (R ad isson ): Mr . Spea ker , were there any major ame ndme nt s mad e this mornin g that were not co nt ai ned on the mimeo graphed sheets that we got fro m the Mini ste r that might be adv isable ei ther to spell out at · the ti me we come to them? MR . ROBLIN : I ju st don 't get what you me an by 'major ones '. I do n't thin k the word 'maj or ones ' -- II there is any doubt , we 'l l spe ll them out . t-1R. CH AI RMAN: Sect ion 2 D, E, as ame n de d. MR. CAMP BELL : Just to be cle ar , :Mr.

Chairman, would you in dica te the natu r e OI the ame nd men t? MR . WIL LIS : Ir I may, 'D ' is , a rarmer means a per son whose pr in c ipal occu pat ion is ra rmi ng . Then 'E' , ra rmi. ng in cl udes the til lage OI the soil , st ock- raisin g, da iryin g , poult ry raisin g, agr icultu r e an d rur ran ching . MR . CAMPBELL : do they? Those two re pla ce th e pr esen t (

i) an d (i

i) MR. vVILLI S: -Yes . The Iirst on e deii nin g the ra rmer is .'D' the next one is 'E ' . Yes , und er 2. That 's ri ght . MR. CHAIRM AN :

Section 4 , Sub-sectio n 1. :tviR.. WILL IS: Mr . Chairman, I have an ame nd men t .t o suggest here which I thin k will be accepta bl e to the House . It Ioll ows the dis cus si ons whic h we had be rore. Stri ke out after the word Gov er nor - Genera l in li n·e 3 an d inse rt the wo rds "two of whom shall be rep resen tat iv es OI rec ogniz ed farm organ iza ti on s ".

The whole thin g will tpen rea d," The organ iza t ion es tab lis hed un der Sect ion 3 shall consis t· of Ii ve per son s appoin te d by orde r OI the Lieu t en ant -Gove rnor -in- Counc il , two OI whom shall be re pr ese n t at ives OI re co gniz ed far m organ iza t ion s an d three OI whom may - I should emphas'iz e that - may be member s OI the Civi l Serv J..ce OI the Gov ern me nt of Manit oba . :t--iEL CHAil \IYlAN: Sub-s ect ion 3. t-1R. CAMP BELL: Mr. Speaker , Ivir. Chairm an, be rore that is 20

pa ss ed , fi nally passed , the di ffere nce tbat 1 se e· in th is one and the amendment th at was pro po sed in the co mmitt ee, spec ial committ ee, which I do not have a co py at the moment , would be that this one· (i nterj ect ion) I thin k the other on e said two of whom would be nominat ed by · ••• MR. WILLIS : Ye s, that ''s sl ightly differ ent in th at resp ect . Our pla ns have follo wed the usual one wher eby th ey would probab ly give us three name s from which we would sele ct one . MR.. CAMPB ELL : I dQn-' t know what my co lle ague s thin k about that .

As fa r as I'm co nc erned , I th ink perhaps th at 's a pr etty fa ir compr omise . MR. CHAIRMAN:· Se ct ion 7, cla use 'f' ,· as ame nded • . :MR. SHUTT LEWORTH : Could you give me a d efin it i on of li ve stock in the Bill? It se ems to me th e purch ase of li ves to ck-- Could we get a d.efi nit ion of liv es toc k? MR. \viL LIS : ••• Our ame ndment that we le ave it exactly th e way it is in th e Ac t origin ally . 'T he purch ase of livestock '• The purchase . of li vestock .

The n, I think that will co ver all the suggest ions which were made ; br eeding stock is out ; basi c herd is out ; ju st lives t ock . I th ink th at will co ver all th e obj ect i.ons which were made � lvtR. MOLGAT : The ame ndment as pr esen te d in this ame ndment is ame nded again ba ck to the or igin al bi ll? MR. WILLIS: It 's canc elled and we go back to th e origin al as print ed which says the Purchas e of Liv est ock . I th ink that will co ver all the obj ectio ns made . MR. CAMPBELL : in the bi ll as it Mr . Cha irman, I th ought we have an ame ndment MR.

WILLIS: vve had an amendment which was off ere d in commit tee whi ch was. wit hdrawn and now you have just as it was before - Sect ion (

f) is four worc:l_s - The Purcha se of .Liv es t ock . MR. M.N. HRYHORCZUK , Q.C . (E th elbert Plain s): Mr . Cha irman , ••••••••• .• to the committ ee wasn "t withdr awn in the co mmittee : what th e Honourable Mini s-ter I unde rst and is sa ying is th at he hims elf ha s put it back to the origi nal - not on th e ad vi ce of th e committee . M1\.. WILLIS : I th ought it was wit hdrawn in Com mi ttee but if' I am mi sta ken' there , I' d be ve ry happy to move th at now - th at the amendment be wi.thd rawn and that we fol low th e ori gin al , which I thin k will satis f'y eve ryone. MR. CAMPBE LL : Mr .

Cha irman , I th ink it goes ba ck to this f'act , doesn 't it , th at lo oking back at 2 (

d) and (

e) th at there is 21

a defi nit ion, doesn 't (

e) give a d� finition of Livest ock? MR . �I LLIS : (

f) gave a defi n iti on of li vestock an d (

f) was this - the purchase of ba si c herd li vestock - th at is to say li ves tock to be kep t and used f}r imarily for br eeding purpo ses an d not sole ly for finishing for sa le . Now there were obj ecti ons to that and it is now our wish - I thought it wa s ment i oned this mor ning - that we go bac k to the original, ju st as it was, which will cover all the ar gume nt s I think in re gard to stock fo r fin ishin g and for rat ten ing and ba sic herd - just to le av e it - The Purchase of Livestock. MR. HRY� ORC ZUK : Mr . Chairm an, I do n't know whet her this . will be help ful or not but it may be . In the amendment to Sec ti on 2, I bel iev e it 's the new (

e) in the defin it ion of farm ing - mayb e set s out what li vestock is in t en ded to be an d if that is co rrect , then the Mini ster would be rig ht in reta inin g the origin al sect ion that we 'r e on, but I'd li ke to have that ame n d ment (

e) re ad �o se e if I' m co rrect in the in t erpretat ion . MR. CHAIR MAN : Defini t ion (

e) eh? MR. WI LL IS : Stock raisin g is inclu ded there • Farmin g inclu des the ti ll age of the soi l , stock ra is ing , dai ry , etc . JvlR. CAMPB ELL : Mr . Chair man, I got the Mini st er such a short ti me ago suddenly re -con si derin g Sect ion 2, and when we got down to (

d) the Mini st er ga ve tJNo sect ion s there (

d) an d (

e) that now take the pl ace of 'D ' (

i) an d (i

i) an d I thought that - an d I-- are now I thin k ca lle d (

d) and (

e) and I thought that (

e) gave a de fin itio n of li ves to ck. Is that not cor re ct? lviR. WILLI S: ••••• No , it 's not corre ct . No , it gi ves the def init ion of farmi ng wh ich in c lu des li ves t ock . MR. CAMPBELL : Mr . Chairma n, is it ri ght that up to da te , we ha ve no def ini t ion of li vestock in the Bill ••• ? A MEMBER : That 's ri ght , that 's why I br ought this up . .tvit'- . CAMPB ELL : I woul d suggest that we should --- • IvlR. SHUTTLE�IO RTH : · Mr.

Chairman, we in t en ded to move that in the Committee , but we had pass ed ov er it this mor nin g or the other day without my no ti ce, an d we in ten ded to move , that in the commit tee we defi ne 'li vestock '; beca us e unl ess you define 'l ivest ock ' it isn't --- We have a def ini tion of far min g , ye a, that in clu des some of these things , but not a de fi nit ion of 'l ive stock ', ·a nd it was poin te d out in corunitt ee the other day we have 'li vestock ' def ined in many di fferen t wa ys in other bills • .tviR.

ROBLI N: wby don 't we just add it to this 'F' .h er e; the purchase of li vestock in clu de d? And then give the def init ion. .tvlR. SHUTTLEv ,fORTH: Ye s, you ca n do it that way • 22

MR . ROBL IN: What is the def in it ion? :tviR. SHUTTL EWORTH : in farmin g . Wel l, we 'd hav e the same thin gs in cl uded MR . ROB LI N: co ns ider it . Well would you write it down and we can MR. N. SHOE MAKER (G lads t one ): In the Ac t respecti ng li vesto ck an d live stock pr oducts , it defi nit ely defin es li ve stock and this is what it says . ''Livestock means horses , catt le , sheep , swine , l� ve poultry and bees .n I thin k the honou rable mini st er has a co py of that Act there . I thin k that that defin ition would be •••• MR.

MOL GAT : It isn 't though beca use we have in c lud ed fu� ran chin g in the defi nit ion of fa rmin g . This does n 't in cl ude fur bea rin g animal s. Apart fro m th at I thin k it covers every thin g . MR. ROB LIN: I un ders t and my honoura bl e fr ien d's writ in g out a defin ition over there . We ca n wait for him. Would it me et the wish of the committee if we wer e just to proc eed for awhile and that will give you ample ti me ? ••• Ye s? Then we 'l l go on and then we ' ll come back to thi s it em . MR. CH AIRMAN: ''H" as am end ed . MR. C M'IPBELL : What is the amend ment ? I' ve ••• • MR.

CHAI RYillN : . • • • • • purp oses re lat ed to esta bli sh- men t an d de velop men t of the lan d and to the ·f armin g opera t ions of the borr ower as ap prov ed by the directo r s, in cl udin g the word "an d " to the fa rming ope rat io ns foll owing the word "lan d" - strik ing out 'a nd opera t ion ' at the be gin nin g of the se con d li ne - stri ke ou t 'o pera t ion - than Devel opmen t of the la nd s and to the far mi ng operat ion of the bo rro wer . MR. CHAIR MAN : Cla use (

c) MR . CA MP BELL : Was ther e an amendment here , Mr. Chairman? Is the ame nd men t the one that ..•••.• ? MR. WILLI S: It 's all just a bout the chatte l mo rtg ages , etc . MR . GAMPBELL : But is it exac tly •• was the am endment ad opt ed in the committee this mornin g? I' m sorry that onc e again I had to le ave ear ly, for a me et in g. It was a no n- pol it ical meet in g, but I had other commitme nt s. MR . WIL LIS : I was su ppo se d to go ·t o the same pl ace . MR . CA MPBELL : Ye s, I not ice d that my hon ourable fri en d d id n't show the sa me in te res t in the meet in g that I did . I 23

forgive him though, he's very busy. lvllL irVILLIS : I can read that for you now if you want me to. Bus-section 7 - For the puroose for which the monies or any of the monies are loaned is th e purchase of livesto ck . and other chattels or bo th ; in add ition to being sec ured by a mortgage on land as provided by Clause (

b) the monies loaned (

i) shall be secured by a fi rst chattel mo�tgage (

a) on the livestock so purchased a natural increa se ; (

b) on the other ch attel s so pur chased and on chattels other than livestock th ereafter acquired by the bo rrower or (

c) about such livestock and increase and such other cha ttel purchaser thereafter acquired and (ii) may if the manager so re quires be secure d by a chattel mortgage sub je ct to the basic herd livestock or other cha ttels or both owned by the borrower at the time the loan is made as the manager may des ig nate. That should be ----basic herd livestock should be just livestock because now that's the definition of it. So we �ould strike out just the two words 'basic herd'. Then it would be "on such of the live stock or other chattels or both "· That's the amendment which was approved in committee. MR.

V\.MP BELL: Mr. Cr.airman, I had been in looking this amendment over th is morning and it seems to me that will all respect that this is considerably worse than the sub-section we were a:oending. Because what we were objecting to there, was that the land had to be en cumbered for the loan on livestock. Now, as I read this one, it not only encu mbers the land but it also can encu mber - it must encumber the land and can encumber the other livestock and even other chattels. Surely, I th ink that one should be reconsidered, Mr. Chairman.

NR . ir·iiLLIS : Members of th e committee will correct me if I am wrong, but I think there was a motion moved this morning to have it on chattels alone, which was turned down. MR . C AMP BELL: Well if that motion has already been r10ved and defeated then--then was there a motion with regard to other chattels in addition to the ones covered by the mortgage being included and their increase� .MR.. 1.\TJ:LLIS : I don't · know the exact wording of that but the general trend was tha t it was to coveF livestock or and chattels only.

In other word s, doing away with the necessity which is there now of ha ving a mortgage on land. MR . C AJvlPBELL: Tho.t one was defeated? MR. V,'ILLIS : That one was defeated this morning. Ml'-. C AJvlPBELL: Then, I should not move that one ag ain, but on the other hand there's another principle invo lved , I think, which is perhaps equally import ant, and that is that under this one as I read it, the other chattels in addition to those covered by the loan can be encumbered. 24

li;!R. WILLIS : This is to cov er the purcha se of machin ery . lvLR. Q\NPBE LL : Ye s, but this is .• ...•. the two are in clu de d? IvlR. \v'ILL!S: That 's ri ght . MR . C AMPBELL : And the purpose for �"'hich the money is loa n ed , or an y of the mon ies are lo aned , the purchase of live stock or other chat te ls or both , in add ition to be in g se cur ed by a mortg ag e on lan d pr ov ide d in cla use (b) , the money loa ned shall be se cur ed by a firs t chat te l mortga ge � then (

a) on the li vesto ck so purc hased an d the nat ural in crea se ther eof . I would ce rtain ly not obje ct to that . · Then (

b) on other chatt els so pur chased - chatt els other than li ve stock ther ea ft er acq uir ed .••••• • l\;1R. R OBLI N : Well , I thin k, Mr. Chairman, if the Honoura ble the Leader of the Oppo si tion \'iil l just consi der thi? si tuat ion, he 'l l see why this might be desi ra ble . It 's possi ble that the first chatt el mort gage might be tr aded in on somet hin g else or some tr ans action or that sor•t ta kes place ' in which on e item is subst itu t ed for an other .

If that shoul d happen , it would be fair I thin k that the le nd in g organiz ation should have some hold on that se co nd chat te l bec aus e otherw ise ,a s far as I kn ow, in the leg al li ne of thin gs it would n't have thot clai m at all , but you can �as ily vi sual iz e that this sort of thin g cou ld happen in good faith , and it 's the ki nd of pr ov isi on that I thin k we could well make �oo m for . MR . C� iPBELL : •••• such a si tuat ion mi ght arise with machine ry, le t us sa y . I would not thin k that could ar ise with li ves tock. MR . ROBLIN: The cow is so ld and the pr ogen y ar e there .

M.�. CAMPBE LL : · No , but that 's alr eady co vered by the . fir. st one . My honou rable f� ien d was not ta lkin g abou t sa le , he was talkin g ab out � -ab out tra ded in for somethin g else . MR . RO BLI N: 1�!ell , the same ar gumen t app lie s to bot h. .f\1R. GAMPBELL : Not in the pract ical sen se , I' m sure .

But then, go in g 6n from ths�e , then the sec on d part , m�y , if the m�n age r so req uir es j be ·s ecu re d by a chattel mort gage on such of the then 'b asi c herd ' is st ruc k out an d 'l ivest oc k' subst itu te d, se cured in the chat te l mort gage on su ch of the li ve stoc k or other chat te ls or both, owned by the board at the ti me the lo <"m i13 made , that the mana ger may des ign ate . '" . : :·, ··;r· ·:.,-.,:· •' ... .... ·. ' .. : ' . MR. 'vviLiiS: l\;lr. Chairman, the so le purp ose of it is this .

That it was thought that the man who �r-ras go ing to borr o'v'r the money should be abl� to unc as secu ri ty both the li ve stock he ho.s no\ ;T and the ma chinery he has now . He should be ahl e to use t oo, as secu�i ty, the li v � stock perhaps which he is goin g to buy wit h the loan, the ma chin ery which he is go ing to buy with 25

the lo an. This , in eff ect , in creases the possi bil ity of his se curity an d helps him, in ou r opinion, to get a larger lo an . IvlR. HRYHORC ZU K; Mr. Chairman , that doesn 't exp lain all of the sec ur ity that is asked for und er these claus es . In ad dit ion to what the Honoura bl e Mini ster has me n tio ned , they also as k for sec ur it y on an y chattels or li ves tock that this borro wer may purchase an y time in the future . And I thin k that that

part icular provi sion ther e is pr etty dras tic , an d I don 't recall hav in g seen it an ywhere in my pra ctice of dra win g up a chatte l mortg age , when you ar e ta kin g a chatte l mort gage on pr operty which the borr o'\Arer may ac quire some da y in the futu re . I am quit e in agr ee me nt with all that the Honoura bl e Mini st er just men t ion ed , the inc rea se in li ve stock , the li vestock that he purcha ses wit h the money thit he borr ows , an d the imple me nt s he purchases vd th the money that he borr ows .

That is per fectly all rig ht, but when you ar e askin g the borro wer to giv e you se curi ty on anyt hin g he may purcha se aft er he has execu t ed the mortgage an d not with the monies that he obtain ed un der the lo an ••• MR. V�IL LIS : One of the ma in purposes , too , :tv!r. Chairman, which we had int en de d was that where a man has machinery on which there is a chatte l mo rtg age , he has it 2 or 3 ye ars and he wa nt s to tur n it in on an other ne w outf it , that the chat te l mortg age should have as se curi ty that new re pl ace me nt .

That , I thin k, is import ant ; other wise , if you don 't have it , if you don 't per mit that , you fin d the man with an en t irely new outfit of ma chin ery , which is compl etely unencu mbere d , but you have a chattel mortgage which do es n't hav e as se ts. MR . HRYHORC ZU K: that ty pe mac hinery . But this does not con fine it even to You go further than that in tliis ame ndment . !YlR. W.B. SCARTH , Q. C. (R iver Heig hts ): ' Mr . Chairman, this is a very common type of con vey an c in g .

If a merc han t gi ves a chat tel mort gage on his stock, it co vers the goods that come in fro m ti me to ti me , and a chatte l mort gage on in crease of lives to ck is very , very common practi ce . MR . HRYHOR CZU K : That isn 't the poin t of arg ument . lV.UL CAJviPBELL : That 's not the se ction that is bein g disc us se d at the moment . So far as that one is con ce rned , I have no obje ct ion s to that on e , but if the honour abl e gen tl eman will loo k at (b) . On the other chat tels so purchase d and on chatte ls other than li ves tock , ther eaft er ac quire d by the borro wer .

MR . vviL LIS : New mac hinery . }{il . CAMPBE LL : How are they goin g to, in pract ic e, keep that up? Ho1J,Tever , it has been co ns idered an d I have no ame ndment to move . MR . CHA IRMAN: Se ct ion F, G. H, I as ame n ded . 26

MR. viiLLIS : 60 year s ins t ead of 50 - a lot of good men around ab out that age . MR. CA :tviPBELL : That sti ll le av es you an d me out . MR. CHAI RMAN : Subs ect ion 1; 4 as amen ded , for the pur poses of this ac t , an d 5, lea v ing out the wo rds "co mmerc ial curren t va lu:e " . MR . CA MPBE LL : As far as 4 is co nc ern ed , I would ask the Mini ster , Mr. Chairman, that 4 is •••• MR .

WIL LIS : St ri ke out the word "agr icultu r� l" then· add om. the en d of the act an d then it will r ead , last li ne rrit s value for the purp os es of this ac t", which was considere d. to make i 1t much wider . l"IR. CHAIRM AN : Sub-sect ion 8 as amen ded . MR. C AMP BELL : What is the ame ndment in $ ? IvL.q, . vHL LIS : T hat 's the one you have on your de sk , mime o g� ap hed wit h re gard to the ra te of in ter es t . !viR. CHAIR MAN : compoun de d" . That is "i nt eres t on lo ans shall not be :t'-'IR. V'iiL LIS : That 's ri ght . MR. CHAIR NAN: Sub-section 10 as amen ded. MR. MOLGAT : Mr.

Chairman , di d we do sub-section 9 - 1,2,3, sep arat ely ? In 3 there is an amen dment is ther/3 not ? MR. WI LLIS : .w e st ri ke out the quest ion !tor if the secu ri t y dep reci at es in va lu e". That 's out . MR. MOLGAT : Mr . Chairman, di dn 't we agree . to lea ve that in, and add in stea d , 11through any fault or neg l ige n ce on the part of the borro wer " ? MR. vviLLIS : Ye s, that 's ri ght . 9 as amen ded . MR. CHAI RN AN :

Section 11. :MR. C AMPBE LL : Whic h on e , Mr. Chairma n, is Sect ion 11? It see ms to me that we added some sub-se ct ion s here or chan ged •••• MR. WIL L'IS : It sa ys 'P rin te d' • 11 is as prin te d, but 10 has two se ct ion s . l•L.\.. CAIViPBELL : MR. CHAI R:tviAN : 10 has an ext ra

section added .

Section 11 pas �ed . 27

MH.. CHAIRM AN; Sect ion 14 . MR •. CAMPBE LL : Are there an y amen dment s - Could we hav e the amen dmen t s in 14, Mr . Chair man. lv'IR. CHAI RMAN: Yes , in 2 in 14 "appr oved by the Lieu ten an t Gov er nor -in-C ounc il " str ikin g out the word s "the Mini st er in �i tin g" . lvlR. CHAIR MAN: Sect ion 16 , sub-se ct iori 3 as ame n ded . lv'IR. WIL LIS : There 's a spec ial amendment there . I move it , sec ond ed by the Min is t er of Education . Pr opose amendment of sub-se ction 3 of

Section 16 of Bill No .8, The Agr icultural Cred it Act , that · all the word::; in the nin th li ne of sub-s ect ion 3 of Sec tio n 16 of th e bill be str uck out an d the foll owing word s subst itu t ed therefo re : "in the tr ust an d sp eci al divi sion of the · consol idated fund and us ed for the ben efit of the corp orat ion" mer ely a trea sury ad ju stmen t . MR . ROBLI N: That 's what I un de rt ook to br in g in . lv'IR. • C HAI Rlv1AN : Agr eed? Sect ion 20 . MR. CAMPBE LL : I would li ke to ask the ci rcumst anc es und er which the Mini ster thin ks that Se ction 20 would bec ome oper at ive . MR.

WIL LIS : It appear s in there be ca use I went down to Ottawa an d had an in t erv ie w with the Mini st er of Agr ic ult ure , Mr . Harkne ss , and I as ked him about their �lan s as to the enlarg eme nt of the Farm Loans Act and whether it was goin g to come about . He sa idt"It may, but my advi ce to you is to in clu d e a cl aus e in your s which would per mit you to co -ope rat e with us should we deci de to come forward with it ". I di sc us se d with him the word in g of the �lause and thi s res ul ts from that con versation. MR. CAMPBEL L : Mr.

Chairman, I was just going to sa y that sur ely if the Federal De par tme nt of Agri cultu re , the Fed era l Gov ernm en t decide to expan d or modern iz e their Farm Loans Act , surely, they won 't be lo anin g money to the provin c ial fun ds , und er the Farm Loans Act . MR. ROBLI N : You ca n't tel 1. MR. \viLLIS : This is al ong the general li ne s suggeste d to me by the Federal Minist er , that 's al l I can s ay. MR. ROB LI N: Now we go back to paragrap h "Fn . lvlR.. SHUTTL EviORTH : I sugg est , M r . Chair man , tha c we put a defin it ion clause in

Section 2 of the bi ll , wh ich would de fine li ve stock as follo ws : "Li vesto ck me ans ho rse s , ca ttl e, she ep, swine , goa ts, li ve poultry, bees an d fur br eedin g st ock" . I thin k that covers the fie ld . 28

!viR. WILLIS : That 's agr ee able to us . Some compl ain ts sa y we did n't in clu de whit e mi ce, but don 't li sten to them . u MR. RO BLI N: No , le t's be cl ear ab out this . I thin k the amendment that 's before us is an amendment to par agrap h , to Sect ion 2 of the Act . And I thin k you had bette r put the que stion on par agrap h 7 F, an d then we 'l l be sur e th at we have it rig ht . l'v!R. VV IL LIS : It says just the purc hase of li vest ock . lvlR . CHAilUViAN : •• •• then we add this in

Section 2 of the Act to the de fin it ion of 'li vestock '. MR. \dL LIS : Livestock, and then you refer to it in 7 F where you say just the purchase of li ve st oc k, which is th e origi na l word in g . MR . SCHRE YER : Mr . Chairm an , just for cla ri fic at ion, would the Mi ni ste r explain now un der the defin it ion of li vestock we have be e -kee pin g or bees ra ther , an d fur bear in� an imal s. Now, what would be the acre age req uir emen t appl ica bl e ther e? V'iould the acre age re quir ement st ill be 50 ac res or ••• l'v!R. WILLIS : It 's wiped out . MR .

SCHRE YER : The acr eage req uir eme nt then on ly ap pl ies to market gard en ers , is th at co rrect? lvffi.. C AlvlPBELL : Mr. Chair man, be fore the Act is fin ally passe d and I per haps mi ssed it when we we re goin g thr ough it in committee as a whol e. Was there an amen dment move d r egard in g the in te res t rat e? Did it re main at 1% ? 1% ab ove the co st to the prov :tnc e? Wa s there an amendment mov ed on that ?

M._q_. 'WILLI S: -And defea t ed . r:'m .• CAivlPBELL : Was the am en dment (I nt e rj ec tion) ••• I had int en ded to sa y in the speci al committee deal in g with the que st ion of in te rest , I think I just should put on reco rd that the Farmers Un ion Local of lv1ather have wired me - this c .;:tme some ti me ago an d I in ten de d to pres en t it at the committ ee , because when they showed int eres t en ough to wire on it , I thin k it des er ves to be not ed - sayin� : 11Mather Loca l of Manit oba Farme rs Uni on Loca l 17 8 wishe s to exp ress thei r opinion on Gov ern me nt Farm Loan polic y.

We suggest no fa rmer can pay 6% in te res t at curren t prices , suggest 2% . May be of some help to the farmer s. Sign ed , George Fin to n11 • I si mply rec ord that be ca use they to ok the trou ble to se nd it in. MR . CHAIRM AN : Prea mbl e. Title •••• Bill be re port ed . Wil l you rise to re port ? !vir. Spea ker , I beg to move , sec onded by the Member from Win nipeg Cen tre , that the re port of th e Committee be rec eived . 29

Nr . Speaker rea d the mot ion, put the que st ion an d aft er a voic e vot e dec lared the mot ion ca rr ied . NR . McLE AN : Sir , I move , sec on ded by th e Honou ra ble Mini ste r of Health and Welf ar e, that Bill No .2,

an act to amend the Public School s Act , be now re ad a third ti me and pa sse d. Mr. Spe ake r put the ques t ion and aft er a voi ce vote decl are d the mot ion ca rrie d . IYJR. WIL LIS : Mr . Spea ker , I beg to move , se co nd ed by the Mini ster of Educat ion, that Bill No .$,

an act to pr ov ide assist anc e to farm ers in es ta bl is� pe velo ping and operat in g their farm� be now rea d a thir.d ti me an d pa sse d . MR. SP EAKER : It has been moved by the Hono urable , the IYlinist er of Agr icultu re , secon ded by the Honourabl e, the Mini st er of Educa t ion, that bill No . $,. an cct to pr ovide assi stan ce to fa rmers in esta blis hin g , de vel oping an d opera tin g thei r far ms be now re ad a third ti me an d pa ss ed . Are you re ady for the que st ion ? MR.

CA MPBEL L : I don 't rise to oppose the mot ion an d not to speak on it ei ther , si mply to ask a que st ion that I neg le ct ed to ask in the Co imnit tee of the Vv'hole today, and perhaps as the que st ion ap plie s to both bills no .2 and no .$, perhaps the Fir st lvlini ste r would wi sh to answ er . That is , I not ice that both of those - I must ap oJ,.ogiz e, I as ked th is que st ion be fore and I' ve forgot te n the answ er - both of them I not ice come int o effect on pr ocla mat ion rather than ass en t .

Would the First IYlinister in form me on ce ag ain as to th e reason for these bi lls be in g by proc lam atio n rather than by royal ass en t , and in a smuch as .they ar e by procla mat ion, would he in dica t e to the Hous e wh en it is the in ten t ion to pr oclai m them. �� . ROBLI N: Bill No .2, it come s in to effect when it recei ves the ro yal assen t . Bill No .$ may be de layed a li ttle while be ca use there are ce rt ain admi nistra t ive an d pr oc edural mat ters that will have to be put en train be fore we would wish to proclai m the bi ll .

Our in ten tio n is , thou.P:h, is to proc lai m it just as so on as we possi bly can ge t those preli min ary arra ng e ment s comple ted. Mr. Spea ker put. the que stion an d aft er a vo ic e vot e deelared the mot ion car ri ed . The Commit te e of Supply . MR. ROBL IN : Mr. Speaker , I beg to move , sec on d ed by the Honoura ble , the Mini ster of Agr icultu re , that Mister Speaker do now lea ve the Chair , an d the Hous e reso lve it self in to a commit te e to con s ider of the su pply to be gr ant ed to Her Maje st y. IY� .

Speaker put the que stion and aft er a vo ice vo te decl ar ed the mot ion ca rried . MR. SP EAK ER : The House do now re solve it se lf in to a commit te e of supply an d the Honoura ble Memb er for St .V atth e�s ta ke the · chair . 30

VJR •. CHA IR MAN : o� Capit al Suppl y. We are re suming the de bat e on Re solu ti on 3 lv'R. SHUTTLEvv'ORTH : Mr . Chairman, I won der if the Minis t er could in di ca te to the Commit tee how muc h of the work is lef t on the co mpl eti on of that se ct ion of ro ad on the per imet er ro ut e from Wave rley Stre et to Oak Bluff . I was over it a fe w we eks ago and it was, I thought, pract ically comple t ed at that ti me , but I not ic e an it em in the se es ti mat es for the co mpl etion of the con cre te pav eme nt an d I wo nd er if that pav eme nt won't likely be compl eted this fall .

MR. \'VIL LIS : It may be but I co uldn 't give any de fi nit e assu ran ce in reg ards to it , the lat est re port I' ve go t. �ffi. SHUTTLEW ORTH : It see ms to me , Mr . Chairm an , that in look ing over some of these it ems , an d I thought I hea rd the Mini ster say yest er day , that ther e was not hin g in these es t imat es that there had been money provided for in this curr ent year ; it would be compl eted now . There is an ite m there, Mr.

Chairman, ' that I think possi bly if the weat her holds for a few days will be complete d, an d I have n't had ti me to go over these too car e ful ly but ' I not ice that on highway 21+, a br idge there , for next year 's program . Well , I kn ow, ��r . Cha±r man, that ther e was money vot ed for it in this pa st year 's prog ram.

Now, it see ms to me that there are one or two it ems that I ca n pick out li ke that ; there may ge a good many other it ems in this progra m that mone y was vo t ed for last year , and I would li ke to hav e from th e Mini ster , if it was possi bl e to have , ahd I know he ca n't give any de tails at all , but a rough br eak down of what is in this progra m 'that V>Jas in last ye ar 's prog r,am . tv1R. PRE FONTAIN E : Mr .

Cha irman , I asked the �l inist er "':-o build two ro ads that �o uld touch the const itue n cy of Car il lon, th� ext ens ion of 23 highway from LaR ochelle to No .l 2, an d al so me nt ioned the Mississ ippi Park way . In ord er of pr ior ity I woulo thin k that the highway which wl ll help ve ry much to de velop the dairy ar ea up an d ar ound Grunthal should come firs t . HON .• MARC EL BO ULIC (C ypr es s) : Mr. Chairman , I fi rs t of all want to than k the Hon ourabl e Min is t er for the prompt act ion that was taken on the Carberry Ac ce ss road .

On the acciden ts th at have happened in Carberry , as the member for Glad ston e men t ioned last nig ht , ab out a month ag o aft er the last fatal ac ci den t , I cont act ed the Dep ar tme nt of Pu bl ic Works an d they will hAve some kin d of an in ve stig at ion . It is surpr is in g that on one of the stra ightes t str et che s of road so many acci de nt s se em to happe n. There is much heav ier tr affic a li ttle further west comi ng out of Shilo , an d you never he� r of any fat al ac ci de nt s there ·, but at the Carberry cor ner a numb er of pe ople have die d through acc iden ts th is summer.

The hon ourabl e member from Gl adst one also me nt ion ed the Car berry-N ee pawa Ro ad . I am sur e that when our plan come s out that the Mini ste r will ta ke in to consider at ion that ro ad v-rhich is much need ed . I al so no ti ce that the Minister in vited some of the Iviembers 31

fro m the othe r si rle of the House to see hi m after the show . f hQpe I can se e him after the sh ow to o, beca us e we ne ed ve ry badly a br idge on the As si ni boine , north of Tr ehe rne .

I was qu it e hanpy to se e th at work will be don e on 13 an d 34 hi ghways , 34 hi ghway , th at sec t ion , th at 1$ mi les is mo st ly , is prac ti cally all in the Le ader of th e Onposi t ion's const it uen cy, but is of gr eat servic e to my constituen cy. ( Now, the Hon ourab le Memb er fr om Rhinela nd see ms to have be en quite shoc ked when th e Mi nister unwra pped his roa d prog ram , but as you know , be in g in th e Cabinet , I knew of some roads th at were goin g to be on an d you can ju st im agin e my con st ernat ion wh en I found out- -I lis t en ed to hi m and I didn 't hear an ythin g ooout one of th e very impo rt ant ro .ad s in Manit oba .

I re ad th is prog ra m and it wa snt t th ere ei th er. And I mu st pr aise the Pr ess be caus e they hRve been adcused on di fferen t occasi ons of not re port in g the news cor rectly. But I ca n as sur e you , l<lr . Minist er , that they have saved the day in my ca se bec ause thi s mo rnin g I found that nine mile s of road fro m No.2 hi ghway th ro ugh Notre Dame is inc lu ded . Thank you . 1'-lR. CAMPBELL : Mr .

Ch ai rm an , I pre sume the Hon our abl e the 1'-iinister is goin g to ans wer the poin t tha t ·"ras rai sed by my collea gue·, the memb er for Mi nne dosa re the 'Jiiaverley St reet -Oak Bl uff . I think he ask ed the que st ion with reg ar d to that . ) MR . B. CO RBETT Swan Riv er ): I vJas somev,rhat surpr ise d, aft er the Mini st er of Publ ic 'vvorks , th e Honou rable Mi nister o:f Public Works had been congrat ul at ed by all th e mem bers in the Oppo sitio n on how we ll he had done for the m , to hear the hon oura ble memb er for Cypress get up and chid e him a li ttle bi t .

As far as I'm conc erned , up in our count ry we have , I have no narti cular int erest in roads bec aus e our const itu ency hapnens to li e , doe sn 't lie on east and we st hig hway but it lies on the north and south ma in en tra nc es in to the north country . and , n<Jt.u ra l ly, we get all our roads fixed up with out any tro uble at all . And I wish to co ngratu lat e the Mi nist er on his very fi ne prog ra m and I hope that no mo re of our si de will get up and clai m th ey ar e be in g short -changed . Thank you . MR.

MILLER : Today I as ke d the hon ourable min ister of Agr iculture a ques t ion in connection with access ro ads . I wonder if he would be ki nd enough to an swer th at? Oh , I have your self an d ten other boys to an swei th at . !'-'lit. WILLIS: First on the list is the 1'-'Iemb er for Rhin elan d . As far as the access ro ads ar e con ce rn ed ea ch one of the m is trea t ed on its mer it s an d we are in fa vour of th em and it 's ju st the da nger el eme nt which I sp oke about ther e before . !viR. lviiLLER: May I in te rj ect here?

V/hat I aske d was whet her or not an y mo nies th at are , ·whether th e new policy anpl ies to the prog ra m th at had al re ady been appro ved but where the mo ney has not be en ex pen ded and .c annot be ex pended this year , the vot e expir es an d whether they ,.,rill be trea t ed on the same ba sis as he pr opose d to tr eat others und er the new progra m . 32 .

MR. WILL IS : The ans wer is yes . IvlR. MILL ER: ••• Fine . MR . vviLLIS : The Memb er for In kster sp oke about the possi bili ty of build ing roa d s with gov ern ment equip me nt, an d v.re did have some when I was here pr eviously but when I ca me back it had gone . An d th e policy was chang ed . We had th e idea at th at ti me th at with some gov ern ment equipment you could do a numb er of the sm alle r job s whic h you pr obably di dn't want to let out on contrac t.

And in addition to· th at , hav ing gove rn me nt eq uipmen t was a check on th e cost of buildin g ro ads be cause if you build the m yourse lf you ca n see re lat iv el y as to whe th er you ar e gett in g good value fr om the contr actors but I wa s succ eeded by a comp let e pr ivat e en t erp riser an d , in th e me ant ime , ap paren tly th at equip me nt was disp ose d of and now we don 't have any at th e mome nt an d we hav en 't any esta blis hed pol icy to get any at th e moment . lv1R. C AMPBELL: compl et ely tr ue ?

That ••• is th e Minist er sayin g th at 's MR . w'ILLI S: ·well , to th e bes t of my knowledge . I inq uired about it and I sai d. : "\Vhat happened to th at equiomeht ?" and they sai d : "W ell it was so ld in th e mean t ime ." I st ill th ink , of cour se , we have so me equip me nt but not th e bigger �uipment which was •• We had two outfits then tha t could eo out and build any ki rtd of a ro ad , but I th in k no lon ger ••• IvlR.

CAJ'v1PB ELL : I thin k the sta t eme nt our hon ourable fri end was ma ki ng in di cated th at all of it was gon e . 1'-'IR .• WILLI S: It 's not imp ortan t but we had , if my inf orm ation is correct and I th ink it is , I in qui re d a bout it , Mr . Stran g was here at th at ti me and he v.ras han dlin g our outfi t . We wo ul d go out and build a five mile stretc h at th at ti me which appar en tly is not being done at the pr esen t . I1 m subj ect to correctio n but that , I inq uired when I re turn ed and th 3.t was what I was told . The mem ber for St .

Boniface sp oke in re gard to the ne ed of bridges and I agree with him en ti rely th at th ey are nee de d , in

part icular I thin k , th at th ere are at least two bri dge s pr etty badly ne eded at the pr esen t ti me and ce rt ain ly we 'r e not ove r loo king th em and I woul d hope th at th ey would come al ong in due course. • •• I hope not . (I n renly to some mem her 1s comment ). The Memb er for Logan I am glad is back again. May I pa use to congr atulat e him on th e gr eat es t vic tory , I th ink , th at thel"'e ev er has be en in Civic electi ons in th e City of \'Jinni peg •••••• Pardon? MR . JO BIN: Polis h , polish, pol is h . Mrt..

WI LLIS : And as he has in di cated ve ry cl early that he isn 't a memb er of any part y and there is no apple poli shin g , alt hough I see op posite me expert s in that pr o fessi on . So I do say to th e Memb er for Logan that he , too, hRs h.:;.d a 33

han d in b ridg e build in g and I'm glad for his sake that th e D� sraeli Br idge is on th e wav wit h an ass ist fro m the pr ev ious go vern me nt an d an assi st fro m this gov ern me nt , s0 this is , as I see it, a co mpl et e co ali t ion for th e bu ildin g of the Di sraeli Br id ge .

The Hon oura bl e Memb er wa s inquir in g in re gard to the que stion of salt and al l th e tr ouble they had 'vith it and no \\7 we have ch loride here but I thin k it would be co rre ct to say th at they wer e us in g sod ium chloride whe re as we are us ing ca lc ium chlo ri de an d th at th at 's not nearly as dam agin g as the oth er is . Sodi um chlori de , if they keep away from th at , why th ey will pr obably not be in tro ubl e and ju st use calc ium chloride in st ead . ThP- honoura b�e mem bers spoke about th e question of r ep air s to asp hal t and con crete hi ghways.

It would be my opinion that you have mu ch less on count ry hi ghways . Mav I say, that so far as hi ghways are concern ed , wh il e 75 is an exc ell en t hi ghv.ray , it will be a mu ch better hig hway th an it ever was when we c;ive it an as phalt cover in g. The n you will have what , in my opi ni'on, is pr etty well the · ideal hig hway . It ·will hove th e concrete for the soli d base , it will have the asp halt for th e smo oth to p an d the � you have what should be th e perfect road and al thou gh 75 is go od , it should. be soo n mu ch be tt er • •••• I be g your pard on? .• IvlR.

LUC KO : •••••••..••• on the to p? MR . CANPB ELL : ••••••••• is not on this p�·ogra m is it? MR . WIL LIS : No it isn' t. No . Aft er bl ackt op it is sheer del ig ht . That 's what comes aft er it The Hon ourabl e mem ber for Carillon spoke in re gard to election pledges and I not ice d th at one of the other mem bers sai d aft erw ar ds th at he was on the ro ad to oblivi on. But , of course, th at 's ju st th e idea of the memb er fro m this si de of the Ho us e.

The hon oura ble mem ber for Car illon sn ake about th e que stion of ---this wa s an election prog ra m . \rvell , I'm ce rtain that hi s party is an expert in th at reg ard be cause if you'l l exami ne the expen di tu re s every year , you ca n-you don't need to enq uire when th e elect ion s were held , you ge t the ex pen di ture s. You get th e expen di tur es an d you'l l see th at nic e big bulGe every ti me . Ju st at election ti me , ••• and a •••• Jv!R. CAJV:P BELL : '\1\iell, we have ••••• ••••• 1n past yea r . HR .

WILL IS : Ho , but th e bi g bulge al·wavs come s at elect ion ti me comp ared wit h th e other years surrou ndLtlg it an d if you watc h it •••• IvlR. CM�PBE LL : You go back an d check it 0 JvLJ:Z . VviLL IS : I am . I di d. MIL CAJv lPB ELL : Not if . . . ... . �·L.q, . \rHLLIS : That 's the que st ion. 34

, MR. PREFO NTAI NE : progra m ••• .. ·· ;· My re fer enc e was to the ti ming of the �JR.. WILLI S: In con trast to the ti ming , \'.re have ti med it beca use we thought that you honour able members opposite would hav e the co urage to throw us out and if you did •• of the grea t nec essi ty of ro ads , and we were consc ious of the feel ings of the people of Mani t oba and conseq uen tly , we put on this pr ogram in case you threw us in to the ash heap . J',-JR. CAMPBELL : Mr . Chairman , the Hon ourabl e Mini ster has made one sta t eme nt here th at I ag ree with .

I ••• lJJR. vVI LLI S: Thank goodn ess for that . IvlR. ROBL IN: I do n't know whether I think the Leader should take him up on that . M.t:t. CAMPBELL : I thin k that point ca me in •• .tvlR. w'ILLI S: The prog ram of cou rse , which you have now in the fall and the member for Car illon as ked why we had it now , was so that they co uld sta rt on the work . There is an add it ional feature which was not previo usly ment ion ed which is of importan c e.

If a contracto r can get a co nt ract now , in the fa ll , he can compl etely fin an c e his operat ions because if he has a co nt ract the bank will fi nanc e him, the machinery company will fin an c e him, and he is well on his way. Which woul dn 't otherw ise be the case beca use he co ul d do noth ing unt il he gets the con tra ct . Aft er he get s the co nt ract he has to sc ra mble for cash in order to ca rry out that co nt ract an d get his mon ey. MR. PREFO NTAI NE : I would li ke to ask a que st ion . Will the con tr acto r be pl ea sed to pay , will he pay in te res t for si x months for no thin g? MR.

ROB LI N: I' m sure my honour abl e fri end re ally knows the an swer to that que stion is "n o" . MR . vv'ILLIS : I thin k that 's the compl et e an swer for it . That 's what en abl es him to buy it and ta ke del ivery an d he , in the spr ing , can st art wo rk ing immed iat ely . • •••• • if I un der st ood the member for Car illon corr ectl y he asked me if we had plan s for the build ing of No .2 3 east fro m where it is now . Was th at your que st ion? MR . PR EFONTAI NE : From LaRochel le , ye s. MR. vviLL IS: Yes . Ea st of LaRochel le . There are no immedia te plans in that re gard .

Then the Honour abl e Member sp oke about the .Mi ssissi ppi Park way and I should li ke , I' m glad to be ab le to say a word in re gard to it . Mi ssiss ippi Park way should co me to Manit oba in the south-eastern port ion . while the exact loca t ion is not yet 35

co nf irmed , it will be _in that gen eral directi on there and procee d north . As so me of the mem bers may not know , the State of Minnesota is mo st anxio us in re gards to this , becau se th ey have a large terr itor y of land there , probably a hundred sq uare mi les V.lhich is entire ly surroun ded by the Lake of the 1:/oods and they can 't even get to th at territory nov\' excent over water . Th is will , in effe ct, give Minnesota an en trance to their own property which is quite a large track thr ough Manitoba .

And they have agr eed to pay fifty percent of the co st of this hi�hway within lvianitoba in order that they may get to their own terri t"o2v , the nor th-west angle . Th en we would exoect to bu ild that north again from there to Falcon Lake . Th ere is another im portant .feature in reg ard to it, I think, is that as far as the pro vin ce of Ontario is concerne d , it onen s up fo r them a large and beautiful :Qeach ther e which wa s not prev iously accessi ble and which will nm_, , become accessi ble throu gh the Mississi ppi Park v my .

Th e planning , muc h of the planning has been go ing on now for two or three year s in re gard to the Parkway and the previ ous gover nme nt had the first hand in that , and it has continued fro m ther e. We hr�d an imoo rtant me etinf!, there at' ••.. • about three we eks ago , and the Gov ernor wa s there . Gov er nor fre ema n wa s there and he expresse d his interest in re gard to the Pa rkway and he said they were in de adly earnest and they wanted to do it as so on as po ssi ble . Th ey had approv al of the National Fed eral Govern ment in regards to it.

Th ey have permit ted them to spend mo ney ou tsi de of the United States on this highway within the Prov inc e of Manitoba and while we haven 't compl eted the su rveys \v i thin the Pr ovince of l•lanitoha , I expre ssed the opinion that -lvhnitoba "l.·.ras re ady , willing and able to co operat e with the State of Minnesota in buildi ng this highway in Manitoba which will open up to us a large tourist trad e in that area , which will ooen up to the State of lvlinneso ta again an entrance to their own nort h-we st angle, which will open up for the provin c e of Ontar io a large and beautiful beach , a

section which should become an excellent summ er re so rt and wh ere , no do ubt , many of our peoo le will go instead of go ing to Kenora because it is mu ch close r . And so the Hi ss iss ippi Park v-ray is an importan t ve nture in the build ing of ro ads and it is a great exam ple of the fr iendshi P between our tv.ro countries , that we ca n coop erat e in build ing this high,Hay which is benefic ial for the peop le of l,Iinneso ta, Manitoba and Ontari o .

The Mem ber fo r Bur ro ws got a little off the ro ad there yest erd ay , and he got into the que stion of co alition a bit and I thought at the sa me time it mu st hav e been very di fficu lt for them in t�tat gr oup not to accent the off ers v.'hich had been ma de by the other party. The Lac du Bonnet Mem ber po inted out that No .5 9 highway is most danger ous as far as grav el trucks and school children are concern ed . May I say to him that 1:ve vrill def initely have a good look at that and ve ry soon becaus e it is a mat ter of great im portance and I thank him for bringing it to my attentio n.

I think it is a gbod idea and I 'm hopef ul that we may be hel pful . I wish to thank the lvlemb er for Giml i for his ki ndly remar ks in re gard to that part of the country and as the Ic elanders and the Ir ish wer e br ought up ve ry close to gether as the pr evio us 36

memb er pointed out , that they di dn 't put S\-rord s v· ith each other at times acr oss the bnv ; that we are very close , and therefore I' m happy that he is please d V!ith the pro�orramrning in that ar ea . The mem ber for Ni nnedosa hr1s aske d the que st ion as to how muc h of this pres ent estima te vias in the previo us es tim ate.

I can 't be entirel y accurat e in re gards to that but I as ked the Deputy Hi niste r and he sai d 11none11 • No'·', I wo uld like to do ubl e check that but in ma ny caser_;, in many cases there are r cad s in here whi�h we re built , so me cases they got a dou ble try but in many cases these r cads now ar e a continuat ion and a se al co at . But , I would like to check particularly on the bridge wh ich , that you me ntion on No .34 becaus e I don 't hav e de fi n�t e inf ormat ion on "th at indiv idual item. 24?

In any even t , the prog ram is almost entirely new and if there is , if there are one or two items there, why I v.1ouldn 1t deny that althour;h I don 't hav e accurat e infor m ation in reg ard to what was on the previo us program and which \\'as carrie d fo rw ard . But almo st entir ely it is a new progra m al thou gh in many ca ses it 1 s an ex tensi on, of course , of the other progra m . :tviR. TRA PP : Mr . Chairm an, there is one question . I wa s very interes ted in the refe re nce mad e by the Ho nourab le Minister in re gard to the Jvlississi pni Park vvay de velop ment .

I was interes ted to hear that he sai d that there was a fi ne be ach in Ontario wh ich wi ll be develop ed by th is ro adway plan into that area . I' m wo nder ing and I' m askin g this ju st for infor mat ion purposes as to wh ether the Ontar io peop le , wh o will lo cate, who will deve lop that ar ea in Ontario will use our Manitoba ro ad in connection , as an access to that ar ea , and as to viliether Ontario will co ntribute anything towards the co nstruc tion of that ro ad to that beach?

I wo uld also like to know v.;here that beach is lo cated because I happen to know that there are very few ways that one can ge t into that certain sect ion withou t goin g throu gh Manitoba . J'.m .• SvvAIL ES : I wa s ve ry mu ch su rpr ised indee d to learn that the Departm ent v.Tas lacking up-t o-dat e heav y roa d bu ild ing equipmen t .

It 's my impres sion that the Department had a fa irly compl ete line of ro ad eq uipme nt two or th ree year s ago and it se ems to me to be a funda mental necessi ty fo r the Dep artm ent to have some up-to -date heavy equipme nt. so that wor k could be . don<? on the road by the Denartme nt itself to check, not only on costs and on the qu ality of wo rk being done by co ntractors , but also on the probl ems that are encoun tere d in roa d buildi ng over di ffer ent ty pes of cou ntry and , I think, that it vJould be desi rable for the Department to acquire so me up-to-dat e road build ing ma chinery with which they vv ould be nble to constr uct any kind of road .

With the huge pr ogra m that is lying ahead of the Departmen t ther e is no dou bt that such equipmen t could be kept in ful l use and full benef it co uld be obtained fro m it befor e it wa s "'' or n out . J:vh� . CAI,;PBELL: In re gard to the rem arks that have ju st bee n ma de by the Honoura ble Memb er for Ass iniboi a , I wo uld think that it vJ ould be hel pful if the Iviinister wo uld br ing in at the eve ning . 37

session, if he ha sn't got it now , a list of the eq uipme nt that the De part me nt has . My rec ollection is quit e clea r that there is some very expensi ve and , I wo uld thin k , mo dern machinery there as well , up-t o-dat e as my honou rabl e fri en d calls it . But , I don 1 t thin k I would want to agree with my honourab le fr ien d to o far that the De partm ent would li kely get back int o an exte ns ive road build ing pro gram .

I think the purpo se is the one sugge ste d by the Minister of en ough to keep thems elves well infor med b� actu al prac tice of just how exp ens ive some of these con str uc ti on proje ct s are , in c lu din g the layin g of surfac e, an d I am quite sure that that fe atu r e has been ke pt in min d .

I1 m sur e al so that my hon ourabl e frien d much as he would li ke to see th e Govern ment do ing pract- . ic ally all the wo�k , he 1l l fin d that in the last year or two at le as t , that the highways branch has bee n ab le to get "'10rk done more cheaply than they could do it thems el ves be cause the con tra ctors have been ver y , very anx ious to get ·v;o rk and go od con trac tors too , an d have been te nd erin g very lo w. Now, Mr . Chairman , mig ht I suggest that the Min ister brin g in a li st of the eq uipmen t that they have there be ca use , I agree , this is an importan t quest ion .

I think it would be bett e.r if the Min ist er .w ould pe rhaps an swer these di fferen t questi ons on e at a ti me but app ar en tly he pr eferG to ta ke them in gr oups . So, I would li ke to ask him about the Min nesota Par k'-'1ay as well . I pr esume it is agr eed be tween the Stat e of Minne sota and the Pr ovin c e of Manit oba that they v-lill share in the bui ldin g of' that road . I exne ct th ere h"ls been no chan ges in pol icy in that re gar d- -that I don 't kno w, be cau s e I harl to be absen t las t even ing .

I dnn 1t know whethPr the Mini st er re porte d on the ro ad that some arti cles in the p"l .per see m to su ggest was go ing to be pro j ect ed away on to the No rth coun try . Ha s a re port been made to the House on that parti cular one? Now, even though it is not in clu ded here I thin k the member s of the committ ee sh oul d have the fact s wit h re gard to an y prog ram of th at kind that is co nt emplat ed .

Then I would li ke to re turn to th is qu est ion of some of the work on the Tr ans Can ada peri met er route, an d es pecially the parts that ar e some of the Trans Can ada highway it self that I thought were in this year 's program , but they see m to be on our li st her e again today . Sure ly, the Trans Can ada highway from the Se in e River to the pr esen t Tra ns Ca nada has been un der cons tru ct ion , yet I see it here grad ed--for gradi ng and grav el lin g. Surely St .

Mary 1s Ro ad to the Red River is in cl uded in th e same contract which is pr ese ntly in prog ress out here at the souther n li mit s of the ci ty. As my coll eag ue s sai d , I have n't seen it for some li ttle ti me but the prog ress that was be ing made at th at ti me would in di cate to me that that must be nearly comple te d , if not comple te d . And I would thin k, the same wo uld apply to Red Riv er to Wav erle y Stree t .

In to ta l, it see ms to me , that a great deal of this program was ac tual ly pr ovided for in this ye ar --in the pro gram for thi s year , outlin ed by the pr eviou s go ve rnment - and they had the mon ey authorize d for it as well . Could the Mini ster giv e us somethi ng more defi nit e with re gard to that si tuat ion? �m . TEILL ET : ..• Sir , if the Mini st er woul d ind icat e to us the roa d ref erred to by the honourab le the Pr ov inc ial Secretary, I do n't see m to locate it here.

MR. \•liLLIS .: ••••••••• to go the other way. The . road ind ica t ed by the Pr ov inc ial Sec r etar y is the la st ite m on ther e . It says , it shoul d say, without lookin g at it - Hi ghway No . 2 south to Notre Dame de Lourde s. In re gar d to the ro ad men t ioned by the Lea der of the Oppo s itio n . It was in cl ud ed in the progra m, an d I must sa y that I' ve not ye t be en able to fi nd out how it got los t te mporarily, but it was appr oved and has been appr oved for a month, at leas t •••• Ye s .

But , in re ga rd to the ro ad s ment ion ed by the Leader of the Oppo sit ion I would ra ther cons ult with the en gineer s-- brin g them in a sta t eme nt in reg ard to that and , I thin k , that woul d be much mor e sat is fa ctor y; and we will also look at the 0_ues ti on of mac hin ery, beca use I just made a ca sual in quiry in re gard to that an d got the ca sual .answ er which I men t ione d the re . Beg your pardon? •.. I don't get all those asi des of yours. MR. GRE ENLAY : ••••••..• some eq uipment with the provi n ce 's name on it goin g aro und . MR.

WI LLIS : I' m so rry , •.• I'l l have to ask you aga in. What was it you sa id? l-'IR. GR EEN LAY : :Mr. Chai rman , I said that I see consi d erab le eq uipment moving aro und the Pr ov in c e wi th the provi n ce 's name on it . MR. WI LLI S: Oh, that 's fine . That mi ght be ma in t en an ce eq uipment , but we will get at le ast the fa cts with re gard to that . The Fir st Minis te r men tio ne d the share as far as the Missis si ppi Par kway is co ncerne d , an d he was down there and I thi n k, made the origin al arra ngeme nt s, an d ther e has be en no chan ge si nce that ti me .

But there has been de fini t e ass urance from the pe ople of Minne sota that it is their d.e si re to pay 50- perc en t of the cos t , and that we wi ll plan the ro ad toge ther , and that it will be a jo in t ve nt ure ; an d they 'v e had en gine ers up there just recen tly, within the las t two we eks , to check it ov er , beca us e I un ders ta nd that the te rrain is a li ttle diffi cult in plac es and they have to pic k an d choose wher e the ro ad is to go . The membe r fo r As sini boi a ma de a re corrunendat ion wi th re gard to equip men t , and I would be gl ad to look in to that .

For the be nefit of the member for Lac du Bon net , and for an y of the member s, they can see the whole pi ctu re on our own map as far as the Mis siss ippi Par kway is con c er ned , in eff ect . In other words , if you lo ok at our own road map, you 'l l see the nor th west an gle, that port ion of :f\'linnesota and ours . We have a no rth west an gle fore st res erve just alo ng sid e and it is the int en tio n of the peop le of Minne sota to build the ir road no rth from Warr oad .

And ag ain, the exac t loc at ion is not cl ea r, · but you will kee p in min d that the ir purp ose is to ge t to that nor th-we st an gle . It 1s a mat te r of gett in g the pro pe r road through there to the nor th we st an gle of th e Lake of the v'loods. Then when you go jus t no rth of that again you se e Shoal Lake, which is the On tario Lake . They have to go , I should judge , sever al mil es acr oss to Shoal 39

Lake to get to that be ach on the we st si de, and I' m in formed that it 's a very good bea ch , an d that it isn 't to o f'ar acr o ss there to Falcon Lake . So, the road which would be built - Mississi ppi Par kv!ay - would se rve the no rth wes t angl e, go no rth to the nor th-we st an gl e about 3 0 mi le s, which woul d ser ve the peop le of Minne sota , an d then go nor th again fa irly well in that li ne v.rhich would to a deg ree , s er vc Shoal Lake , alt hough they would have to build their road in.

On tario woul d hav e to huil d thei r ro ad in to Shoal Lake then it would hook up some place nea r Fal con Lake, no rth of that agai n . It mak es a - - I thin k it will beco me a tour ist me cca do'l.-m ther e beca us e ther e are goo d lak es.

I think there will be a sense of cur iosi ty if nothin g else , by the people of Minne sota , that they should go and vi sit this pa rt of Minne sota that lie s -- that they ha ve to go through Ivlanitoba to visi t , an d I thin k they \·.rill be up there in very la rge num bers , and it 1 s a good thing for .tvlanitoba - it 1 s a good thing fo r Hi n ne sota - and a good thin g fo r Ont ario . And that bein g so , I would expect that as so on as pos si bl e, it would be cc.nmpl ete d an d we 'd get the gr eat ben ef it s fro m it .

And I don 't think that anyone would say that this is a-vro ng 't hing to do but ra ther that it is a new an d exc it in g idea as far as touris :t tr aff ic is co nc erned an d the re sult of it ,.vould be that we 'd get more On ta ri o people in Manit oba and more peop le fro m Ivlinne sota in Manit oba and it should be all for the good of Manit oba . MR . G REENL AY: Mr .

Chairman , I wond er if any att en tion is bein g given in the plan nin g of this roa d north from the bound ary , from north of War roads wher e it goes up to Fal con Lake , - is any att en ti on be in g given to making an ac cess ro ad to our own be ach on the Lake of the Woods? When I' m referr in g to Buffalo Poin t- Buffalo Poin t - I don 't know whether ver y many members know or not , we have a very nic e pi ece of co unt ry which st ic ks out in to the Lake of the Woods. There 's a very nic e be ach ar ound it .

I ha ve vi si te d it an d there were some nego t iat ions goin g on with reg ard to maki ng it ava il abl e for se tt le ment . Now I kn ow that in ti me s of high wat er , there was some diff iculty of ac cess . There was ab out a quarter of a mile which was fai rly boggy but v1e we.r e to ld by engin e ers that in vest igat ed , that there was a hard sub s oil that could be us ed to put up a grad e acr oss that low sp ot an d ce rtain ly I thin k that some at te n ti on should be paid to it beca use it 's a very lovely piece of count ry an d a very lovely beach is ar ound it .

It 1 s on the Lake of .the Woods . I belie ve that it is al l in clu ded in an In di an Re ser ve , but it is hardly ever us ed as such and from so:me casual pr eli min ary en quiri es, we were given to un derstan d th at it would not be impossi ble to have that turn ed o

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	25-1-11a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	25th 1st hansardpdf 11a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	776d4c6f56b35094e9001e7bc863aa7b2a95101c

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