Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 32A (26th Legislature, 3rd Session)

26-3-32a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Name ALEXANDER, Keith BAIZLEY, Obie BJORNSON, Oscar .F. CAMPBELL, D. L. CARROLL, Hon. J.B. CHRISTIANSON, John Aaron CORBETT, A. H. COWAN, James, Q. C. DESJARDINS, Laurent . DOW, E. I. EVANS, Hon. Gurney FORBES, Mrs. Thelma FROESE, J. M. GRAY, Morris A. GROVES, Fred GUTTORMSON, Elman HAMILTON, William Homer HARRIS, Lemuel HARRISON, Hon.Abram W. HAWRYLUK, J. M. HILLHOUSE, T.P.,Q .C. HRYHORCZUK, M.N., Q.C. HUTTON, Hon. George INGEBRIGTSON, J. E. JEANNOTTE, J. E. JOHNSON, Hon . George . JOHNSON, Geo. Wm . . KLYM, Fred T. LISSAMAN, :R. 0. LYON,H on. �rling R., Q.C. MARTIN, w·. G. ·McKELLAR, M. E. McLEAN,H on.

Stewart E.,Q .C. · MOLGAT, Gildas MORRISON, Mrs . Carolyne ORIJKOW, David PAULLEY, Russell PETERS, S; PREFONTAINE, Edmond REID, A. J. ROBERTS, Stan ROBLIN, Hon. Duff SCARTH, W .B. , Q.C . SCHREYER, E. R. · SEABORN, Richard SHEWMAN, Harry P. SHOEMAKER, Nelson SMELLIE, Robert Gordon STANES, D. M. STRICKLAND, B. P. TANCHAK, John P. THOMPSON, Hon. John, Q.C. WAGNER, Peter WATT, J. D. WEIR, Waiter WITNEY, Hon. Charles H. WRIGHT, Arthur E. Electoral Division Roblin Os borne Lac du Bonnet Lake side The Pas Portage la Prairie Swan River Winnipeg Centre St.

Boniface Turtle Mountain Fort Rouge Cypress Rhine l and Inkater St. Vital St. George Duff erin Logan Rock Lake Burrows Selkirk. Ethel bert Plains Rockwood-Iberville Churchill Rupertsland Gimll Assiniboia Springfield . Brandon Fort Garry St. Matthews Souris-Lans downe Dauphin Ste. Rose Pembina St. John's Radisson Elmwood Carillon Kildonan La Verendrye Wolseley River Heights Brokenhead Wellington Morris Gladstone Birtle -R ussell St.

James Ham iota Emerson Virden Fisher Arthur Minnedosa Flin Flon Seven Oaks Address Roblin, Man . 185 Maplewood Ave., Winnipeg 13 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd ., Winnipeg 29 Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 86-9th St . , N. W. , Ptge. la Prairie, Man . Swan River, Man . 512 Avenue Bldg ., Winnipeg 2 138 Dollard Blvd ., St. Boniface 6, Man • Boissevain, Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Rathwell , Man . Winkler, Man . 141 Cathedral Ave ., Winnipeg 4 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital , Winnipeg 8 Lundar, Man.

Sperllng, Man . 1109 Alexande r Av e., Winnipeg 3 Holmfield, Man. 84 Furby St ., Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg ., Selkirk, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Legislative Bld g., Winnipeg 1 Churchill, Man . Meadow Portage, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 212 Oakdean Blv d., St .James, Wpg. 12 ·Beausejour, Man • 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man . Legisl ative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 . 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 Nesbitt, Man . Legisla tive Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. Manitou, Man. 179 Montrose St., Winnipeg 9 435 Yale Ave.W., Transcona 25, Man . 225 Melrose Ave., Winnipeg 15 St.

Pierre, Man. 561 Trent Ave ., E.K il d., Winnipeg 15 Niverville , Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 407 Queenston St., Winnipeg 9 Beausejour, M� . 594'-.Aj:iington St. , Wfunipeg l.i> ·Morris . Man. · Neepawa, Man. - R�s�ell �. Man�_ 381 Guildford St. , St. James, Wpg. 12 iiamiota , Man . Ridgeville, Man. Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Fisher Branch, Man . Reston, Man . Minnedosa, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 4 Lord Glenn Apts .1 944 Main St ., Wpg.1 7 . /

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBLY OF MANITOBA 8: 30 o'clock, Monday, March 27th, 1961. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mines and Resources - 1. Administration. Item (a) - passed. Item (b) - passed. (a) (2) - passed. (b) (1) - passed. MR. PAULLEY: Hold it, hold it, Mr. Chairman. Ques tion on reading the results of a record of Hansard, my honourable friend the Member for Carillon referred to Hansard because · it didn •t record that a certain item had passed. Now I hope that by virtue of the fact of you say ing pass ing on two or three items that Hansard does not reveal that these items have passed when in effect actually they have not.

Now there were questions directed to the Minister prior to the supper recess under his salary, I'm sure that he's going to answer to that, and I do be lleve that there's one or two more questions on it, so I suggest rather than any item being passed that we revert back to salary. MR. A. J. REID (Kildonan): Mr. Chairman, in the Throne Speech it was mentioned that funds will be sought to purchase Grand Beach property and also that. certain improveme nts wlll be made to Winnipeg Beach property.

Well I hope, Sir, that when the Minister brings down his estimate he'll give us a breakdown on these items because I have sp oken to him about Winnipeg Beach propertie s and also he has had delegations, but nothing has been done lately on this pro ject. Campers and local residents have paid taxes in these areas, espec ially the Winnipeg Beach area, for years.

Firstly I have no objec tion to the purchasing of the Grand Beach pro perties, or in fact any areas for parks or recr eational facUlties, but I firmly believe that the old established facilities should definitely be given some consideration and not be allowed to revert into a dilapidated condition such as I understand the Winnipeg Beach site is becom ing. In fact, when I vote for the estimates I want to know what is going to be done definitely with such sums of money. Now, Sir, I understand that commerc ial fishing is at a very low ebb through such insig nificant prices paid to fls hermen and lack of markets.

Well, Sir, here I have a booklet pub lished by the Mines Department; here's what it says: "An ounce of whitefish. In recent nine year period 149 to '58, commerc ial landings of commercial whitefish in Canada have averaged 24. 6 million poun ds. This figure is nearlY; one-quarter of the we ight and almost one-third of the value of all Canadian commerc ial fresh-water fish. Convert the various dressed and fillet we ights of whitefish and equivalent land or round weight, indicates that 93 percent of the above catch was exported.

The domestic disappearance figures, fish which Canadians ate at home, amount to 1. 8 million pounds . This would represent about half of ten percent of the catch not exported in terms of eatable we ight. On the annual basis this works out around one-fifteenth of a pound per head of population, or just about an ounce of whitefish yearly. " Well, Sir, the po int I'm getting at is that in many countries the consump tion of fish is far greater than it is over here.

I don't know whether their standard of living is lower than ours, but I belleve one of the ·main problems is the wide spread in the price that is paid to fishermen, and eventually what the consumer has to pay. I believe that the department should publicize more the food value of fish, and that in comparison it is not high in proportion to the price of other food pro ducts. Speaking of fishing, Mr .

Chairman, I believe that special concession should be made when it comes to matter of fishing licenses, espec ially for a group of tourists from outside of the provinc e who may possi bly just be visiting us for a day or so. It's true -- I read a little

article in the Wildlife of March 16 1 -- that now for angling you only have to have one license for the whole season, for summer and winter fishing; that is a little improve ment for the local fishermen. Also I notice a little news slip in the paper recently that the Department of Mlnes and Natural Resources had auctioned off seized cars and firearms, etcetera, and I was just won dering if this auction is publicized, and is it open to the public, and also if the former owners can bid on their former po ssessions ? Mr.

Chairman, I was just wondering what happened that private shooting lodge and lake that the government bought a couple of years ago somewhere in the Netley Marshes. When I looked through the Annual Report of Mines and Natural Resources I could see nothing on it. I was just wondering what's so secretive about it, or maybe it's not open to the public and just a few officials have the opportunity to shoot there. I would appreciate if the Minister would in form us on that project. March 27th, 1961 Page 1333

MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains): I'v e always taken a very keen in terest in matters that come within the purview of this department, and, as I've said previously on other occasions, I feel that Manitobans have been blessed wi th a bounty beyond that of most people in this world, and I think that all the members of the House, as well as all Manitobans , realize that their heritage ls one to be very carefully preserved and to be im proved. Now there are matters in these particular estimates that I'll refer to as we come to them, but there's one thing that has struck me as rather odd.

The Minister in his address mentioned the fact that he has reorganized the form of his estimates, and I'v e no objection to that, but one of the duties of the oppos ition is to check on the policies of the government, their expenditures and so forth, and I find it very difficult to com pare this yea r's estima tes with last yea r's , not only because of the change in the format, but the figures given on the left-hand side of this year's estimates, Mr. Chairman, which are supposed to correspond with the figures of the current year's esti mates, do not correspond in many instances.

The first one is under Adm inistration, in (a)(

l) Other Salaries; ln this year's esti mates we have the figure $51, 635

whereas the item in last year's, that is the current year's estimates, is $65, 990. Well , these two figures should be the same. And there are quite a .number of these discre pancies right throughout these estim ates and I intend to raise them as we come along. I do not see how we ca n check on this department properly unless the Minister is in a pos ition to explain these discrepan cies, and some of them are pretty heavy.

I can understand one or two of them where he added another subdivis ion; under Field Operations, that may explain some of them, but like this one her"', I can't see an explanation and I'd like to have it. MR. HA WRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, we 're all aware that there's a big project going up north. This is just a question regarding an

article that appeared in the paper about the fact that certain si gnifica nt historic si tes were being destroyed by the construction crew in the build ing of this dam at Grand Rap ids . It seems that a former factor of Hudson's Bay Company, Mr. William MacKay, made a statement to the press that he said much of the old Hudson 's Bay tramline which was used to ferry the Old York factory boats had been wrecked by the construc tion crew.

Now, there was some explanation given later on and I was just wondering whether there was any truth to that or if something had been done to safeguard some of these historic sites in that part of the country? MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks) : Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words on the Minister's salary. I'm very pleased to note that the various fish and game assoc iations in Manitoba are so pleased with our Minister. I notice that he is very -- I think the word is ubi quitous -- he seems to be all over and everywhere at once , and I would like to ask him a ques tion about fishing li censes .

I notice that licenses are now $1. 00 for the whole year, but it says $1. 00 for all Canadian residents. Is that right, or is that for Manitoba? The Province of On tario has a license for Ontario and another one for residents of Manitoba. I just wondered whether that was . . . • • . . • Also I notice that in flight operations in Manitoba -- I'm very con cerned about the amount of area that is be ing covered by our Manitoba Government Ai r Service machine s.

I notice that nowhere in the report can I find the number of machi nes, but I believ e there are nine -- putting two and two together I believe we have nine machines -- and these machines are used so many ways that it's amaz ing when you realize how much work they really do.

And that concerns me wi th these em ergency services that they're being called upon to help wi th, and I know that when an emergency arises everything else stops -- that the work of mercy, of course , con:e s first, but in the report I notice that much more time is being given to the De partment of Health and Welfar e, and it leaves me to wonder why some cons ideration is not being . given to an ambulance air service si milar to the one in Saskatchewan, now that we're developing the north, and I wonder whether these aircra ft -- I believe they're sma ll aircra ft and I know they have low landing speeds -- but I'm just wondering whether they are equipped to take care of these emergencies which wi ll arise more frequently now that we're developing the north country.

I'm very doubtful as to whether they are equipped with oxygen; I'd like to know what quali fica tions the pilots have -- well, I know they're ca lled upon to do so many different jobs , from dropping fingerlings into the lakes to taking survey parties in the north; I'm much concerned wi th that. I think that some thought should be given to properly train personnel, the plane should be properly equipped now in this business of these emergencies in the north. MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, dealing with the items that have come up, I think I would Page 1334 March 27th, 1961

(Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) •..•• like to start first of all with Grand Rapids which was brought up by the Leader of the CCF Party just before we adjourned. He asked many questions about the Grand Rapids development, and he had a brief which I have seen, which came out of Flln Flon, and unfortunately the brief that he had contained many inaccuracies because the brief was based on the forebay of the Grand Rapids forebay being at 846 feet.

Now the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board have a license for 844 feet, but for a good number of years they won't be using that foot age, they will be oper ating only at 842 feet, and the brief that the me mber has, also refers to some 3, 600 square mi les which will be inundated by water. Actually the amount will be some 2, 400 square mi les .

The brief also referred to the Hudson's Bay Hallway be ing subjected to danger by the forebay flooding, and I can assure you that the CNR would never allow such a condition to happen, and that the op erating levels of 842 or even at future ope rating levels of 844, the CNR railway will not be subjected to any danger from the forebay. At the f!gure of 842 and at 844 for years to come, the No. 10 highway will be miles away from the forebay flooding. In addition, he mentioned that The Pas would only be about sLx miles away.

Under the operating conditions of 842, or in years to come of 844, The Pas wlll be much further from the forebay area than it is at the present time , and these figures in respect to The Pas and the damage that might be done up at The Pas and Opasquia Valley, and once again I can assure him that no decis ion would have been made on a higher forebay level with $3 mi llion having been spent on the experimen tal project in the Opasquia area.

These figures neglect the fact that the Saskatchewan River is going to be very well controlled in compartments with the darn at Outlook in Saskatchewan being constructed at the present time, with another darn at Squaw Rapids in Sas katchewan being constructed on the Tortue River. All of these darns will have a tendency to put the rivers into com partments and thus control the flow of the river. In addition, another darn -- I ca::J't recall the name of lt -- but an irrigation scheme in Alberta, which in ad dition has a controlling factor on the Saskatc!1ewan River and the forebay at Grand Rapids.

He mentioned many things in his spe ech this afternoon. He mentioned about the fact Cormo rant may have the fishing in Corm orant Lake affected by the high forebay levels, and once again he was thinking in terms, or the brief was thinking in terms, of 846 feet. Actually the amount of water that will be pushed back up onto Corm orant Lake will not be very much; the Village of Cormorant will not be affected, and we do not anticipate that fishing on Cormor ant Lake will be affected either.

With the matter of timber resources, I think it is to be re mem bered that the area that is going to be flooded is a wet lands area, and in the wet lands area we do not have any forest of any significant value. On some of the levies we may have forests but most of those are poplar stands which are not of a great deal of comm ercial value. And what is left in the coniferous forest in the forebay area at the present time in those wet lands , is all young growth. The major forest industry which could develop north of Grand Rapids wlll not be affected by the forebay flooding.

In fishing, the com merc ial fishing in the Cormo rant and Cedar Lake areas amounts only to some 200, 000 pounds at the present time, and we have every hope that with the fore bay, when it is inundated, that we will be able to have an intensive and more controlled fisheries activity in the area of Cedar Lake or Chernahawin and Moose Lake.

There is some concern for the com merc ial fishery on Lake Winnipeg, and wi th tagging which will be done this year in the Grand Rapids area, and with tagging that will be done in the north arm of Moose Lake area, we anticipate we will be able to find out more about the fish mi grations of this area and add to the studies that have been made up to the present time , which have indicated on the sur face that there is not such a great migration of fish up the Grand Rapids into Cedar J_,ake and into the Moose Lake areas.

Now the whole forebay project has been under consi deration by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources in the past because the department, when water conser vation was with us, had to make these various hydraulic surveys.

Agricultural development will not be affected a great deal, and it is not true that there was no study made of it, because when the Grand Rapids project was looked upon many years ago, the PFRA and our own soil-testi ng resources of the Lands Branch were utilized in an area which was just north of the Summerberry Marsh, and it was found that the agricultural potential there would be too cost ly; the amount of diking and drainage which would be necessary would be too costly for the value that we received • . .March 27th, 196 1 Page 1335

(Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) .•••• The study that was made on the Grand Rapids dam on the Saskatchewan River, the econo mic value of it, has been assessed to far outweigh ·the other values that might accrue from com merc ial fishing or from forestry or from cropping in that area. We do have, at the present time, a Forebay Comm ittee with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources acting more or less as agents in the area for the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board, and that has one of our senior officials and one of the senior officials of the Hydro-"Electric Board on it.

They in turn have set up an Advisory Comm ittee utilizing the game and fish resources of our department or at least the experts in our department and Ducks Unlimited and hydraulic men from the Depart ment of Water Conservation. We have a Forebay Commi ttee operating in The Pas which has a senior member of the Department of Health and Public Welfare on it and a senior member o f the Department of Mines and Natural Resources.

The Departn:e nt of Mines and Natural Re sources and the Hydro-Electric Board have a man operating in the area at the present time, looking into the various problems which will be set up by the Grand Rapids Forebay Development. The people of Chemahawin and Moose Lake have also got committees, particularly the people of Chemahawin. Three sites have been surveyed as poss ible sites for the subsequent or the mov ing of the Chemahawin site to come, and nothing will be done without the full consent of these people. They are being kept informed and we are seeking their advice.

They know of the three areas involved and they wlll be able to make their choice. We are working very closely with the Department of Indian Affairs and with our own Department of Health and Public Welfare who are responsible for the Metis people, and taking every precaution possible to see that these people's rights are protected. I thl!ik the member is neglecting that with the people of Chemahawin and Moose La ke, that actually the Grand Rapids project may benefit.

Because they are going to be moved, they will" be paid some comp ensation, but generally speaking we want to move them-into better conditions than they have been living in at the present time. He ·a lso forgets that the people of Grand Rapids as a result of the Grand Rapids Fore bay Develop- ment and the Grand Rapids Hydro Development have had pretty well a new lease on life. Fish ing on Lake Winnipeg has been deteriorating, particularly whitefish fishing over the past two years. Now they have a town-planning comm ittee of their own. They have new industries that are going to move into Grand Rapids.

No doubt there will be fish filleting plants. We antici pate that there wlll be a rough fish removal plant up in Grand Rapids in the future and they have a road which connects them with the southern part of the province. For Grand Rapids and the people that live there, the Hydro-Electric Development in that area has been of immense value.

And that value is also going to spread out toward the people of Chemahawin and the people of Moose Lake, for with power in the area, the possibllities of developing the forest resources there are much higher than they have ever been before,. and I feel sure that it's right to .say that the people of Chemahawin and Moose Lake will gain more from employment in "the forest resources which we hope will be developed as a result of power being in the area than they would from trapping .or from fishing.

I think he forgets, too, that the power requirements in the province have apparently been increasing by about seven percent per year, and that we are going to need power if we are going to develop secondary industries · in the Province of Manitoba and thus create employment. I wonder, when he is speaking about the muskrats and about the fish, if he is also thinking of the men who need jobs, and who can only be provided jobs by secondary industry and development of the province which requires power.

I wonde.r too if the man who sent him the brief had thought of that angle, of men being put to work as a result of power through development in the Province of Manitoba. It seems strange to me that the man who wrote the brief is a labour man, a man who is charged with looking after the interests of labour. I can appreciate and understand his concern, and I ad mire the fact that he stood up to protect the moose and the fish and the muskrat and the duck. I am also interested in them, and I believe that in the past ·year I have shown this.

But I think we also have a decision to make as to whether or not we are going to provide for expansion in this province, and for work for men, and I wonder if he were to face the same question as to whether you were going to develop for work for men through expansion of the province in rela tion to what you were going to lose in muskrats, moose and ducks and the few trees that we have there, what his decision would be, or what the decision would be of the man who wrote the brief and who represents labour in Flin Flon. We will take every precaution that we poss ibly Page 1336 March 27th, 1961 -

(Mr. Witney, cont' d. ) ..•.• can to see that the people ofCI:ennhawin and Moose Lake are taken care of. I feel sure that with the control of the forebay area, that we will be able to do inten sive resources management; we will be able to find areas where we can recrea te muskrat habi tat and at the same time increase habitat for the ducks. The Mawdesley area can be controlled and the Mawdesley area, if we wished, could be used for agriculture if it is deemed necessa ry, or it can be controlled and used as an area for muskrat and for ducks.

There's cert ainly one significant factor about the Grand Rapids forebay, it will be a good duck nest ing area although it may not be a good duck breeding area. And that will be impo rtant when the ducks are mi grating back and forth across the country. We have had during this past year a United States Wildlife Report made on the area, in order to protect, and to make sure that we could have suggestions on what we could do to protect the resources in the forebay area, and that report has come down now with a few copies, and it is be ing studied by the officials of my department.

The Mineral Surveys -- we do know that there is some amber in the area but we have not experienced any great interest in mineral resources in that particular area, and myself, for my own thinking, if the re was any money to spend in the development of mineral resources of the province, I think they could spend them quite well up in the areas around Flln Flon, Lynn Lake, Snow Lake and Thompson where we do know that there is mineral potentlal at the present time.

At any rate, the mineral exploration ls not denied by the forebay area, because the sur veying for minerals is going on all the time through the ice; drilling is going on through the lee, geophysical work ls done over ice, aero- magnetic work is done over ice at the same time. So I really feel, Mr.

Chairman, that everything has been done at the present time to protect the wildlife resources in the area, and I do feel that while it is regret table that we are going to cause difficulties for the various types of wildlife , that the big asset of the Grand Rapids, wit h its power fo-.: development and expansion and jobs in the Province of Manitoba, far super »edes the values of muskr-at, fish and other wildlife .

I feel also that wlth the land which we are acquiring around the Delta and in the Netley, the other game management areas that we have been able to establish, that we can nullify, to a certain extent, the damage which wtll be done by the flooding in the forebay area. The Honourable Member for East Kildonan has mentioned the Grand Beach property. The Grand Beach propert-y has now been bought and at Grand Beach we have begun our initial inves tigations and started work for this coming season.

We are now preparing, up there, a parking lot in behind the sand dunes which we anticipate will handle about 800 to 1, 000 cars. We will be providing in those areas picnic table s, fireplaces , toilet faciliti es , and we wl ll be doing landsca ping on the sand dunes in order to stop them from blowing. We will also be taking care of the present sanitary facilities that are there, and improving on them, and doing everything that we can to make better conditions for the increas ing numbers of people that are going into the Grand Beach area.

As we get our feet on the ground -- because we took it over just about the beginning of December of 1960 -- as we get our feet on the ground, we will develop it as solidly as we have developed other areas of the province. In Winnipeg Beach, the Province of Manitoba will now, with the Town of Winnipeg Beach, buUd modern sanitary facilities and a change house, providing that the Town of Winnipeg Beach will negotiate with the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for a loan to establish sewage facilities in the Town of Winnipeg Beach, and our modern facilltles will be tied on to those sewage facilities.

The negotiations must commence now so that these facUlties can be built this year in order to handle the summer crowd at Winnipeg Beach this year. You mentioned also the auction of seized materials for jacklighting and the instructions were, and I believe they were carried o1,1t, that those auction sales were to be advertised in the dally news papers, and that those who had materials seized were to be notified. Your re marks about the Plum Lake Marsh building, those buildings have been sold. I couldn't tell you what the return on them was at the present time, and the area was closed to hunting.

These officials , that you speak of, shooting in the marsh, I'd appreciate it if you could give me more information, but I doubt that any officials -- and I know that as far as I am concerned, no offi cials of the De partment of Mines and Natural Resources have been given any privileges over anyone for shooting in the Plum Lake Marsh area. Reference was made to archaeological sites and we did have investigations made of the archaeological sites in the forebay area by an experienced man, and he found that there were March 27th, 1961 Page 1337

(Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) •••.• not the large number of archaeol ogic�l remains as had been re ported in the newsp apers ; and he found that the damage that had been reported in the newspapers was not going to be as great as indicated. We have been keeping abreast of that, and money is set aside for further archaeological studies in the forebay area if they are found necessa ry. The fishing licenses: we do have resident and we do have non-resident fishing licences .

Our fishing licences for the res idents are $1. 00 for wi nter and for summer, and, I think the non-resident fishing licenses are $6. 50 for the summer and wi nter. The matter of having a daily licence for non-resident people was considered last year, and we came up with the con clusion that it was too cumbersome to administrate, and came down to the decis ion that we would not carry it out in the department. Mention was made of the air services for emergency. The Departrre nt of Public Health and Welfare have been us ing our alr services to a greater degree than they had ever done be fore.

And that is because the Department of Health and Public Welfare have been more active than ever before through their northern health services in the north country. We have found that we have been able to cope wi th all emergencies that may have arisen in the north cou ntry wi th our present facilities. I think the reason that there are more ls simp ly that through the Department of Health and Public Welfare we have had more people in the area and the emer gencies have been drawn to our attention to a greater degree than they had been done in past years .

I believe that the Manitoba Government Air Service is quite well equipped to handle this type of operation, and I believe they have the proud boast that they have never had to leave anyone in an emergency yet in the north country, despi te such matters as the dP.rkness and some of the flying conditions. When you sp eak of the Government Air Service I think you must remember that Saskatchewan has about two-thirds in agricultural country, and the Saskatchewan Air Service, I believe, was started at a period when their road system was not as good as it is at the present time.

In Manitoba here we have about two -thirds of our province covered by Precambrian and I don't feel, with the record at any rate that we have been able to meet Bn emergencies in the province, that there is any need for us to embark on any government air service. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I was very, very interGsted to hear the rema rks of the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I did not, this aiternoon, men tion the fact that the brief that I had before me was wl'itten by a member of the Canadian Labour Congress stationed in Flin Flon.

I first of all want to say to the Honourable the Minister, that I disagree wi th him when he attempts to raise the point that, because of the fact of the neces sity for industrial power, electrica l energy, here in the sou thern part of the province, that we should try to counter-balance and exhibit any surprise at all , because a representative of labour ln Flln Flon suggested poss ibilities of looking after muskrats and wil dlife, as against the industrial development of southern Manitoba and the availability of power.

I think this pin po ints, Sir, if I may, the regrettable fact that all too often -- and apparently the Minister is one of those -- the regrettable fact that people think that representatives of labour are only in- I terested in labour itself, because we're not. We are inte rested in the whole well-be ing of the Province of Manitoba and the Dom inion of Canada, and one of the reasons that we raise these points, as I raised them this afternoon, is because of the fact that we are interested in the pro motion of the best for all of the people of Manitoba.

I said this afternoon that we felt, or it was felt that there may have been other areas of potential electrical production that may not have had the adverse repercussion which apparently may result from the development at Grand Rapids.

Now the Minister is perfectly correct when he states that the brief does make reference to an elevation of 846 feet, and the Minister, if, I recall correctly what he said this evening, has said that the elevation will be more in the neigh bourhood of 842 feet, four feet less, but I wonder, Sir, he tells me that he has read this brief, I won:ier whether he did or he did not take into consideration some of the facts or suggested facts, and I must say in all fairness, :M:r.

Chairman, that these are suggested facts, because I am not too conversant myself wi th the area, but in the brief that was· referred to both by my self, and the Minister tells me he has read it -- he told the comm ittee here tonight -- whether or not he has taken into consideration the points raised in the brief as to the net effect of even rais ing the level to 842 feet, because in the brief we are informed that this flooded area, a reservoir, would make one huge lake out of such lakes as Moose Lake wi th an elevation of 838 Page 1338 March 27th, 196 1

(Mr. Paulley , cont'd .) .•••• feet above sea-level; Cedar Lake with an elevation of 833 feet; Cross Lake with an elevation of 819 feet; Drift Wood Lake, 839 feet; Kelsey Lake , 842 feet; Connolly Lake , Mud Lake , Red Rock Lake, Laundry Lake, Lamb Lake, Trader Lake, Head River, Little Fish, Poplar Lake, Mawdesley Lake, which the Minister referred to, of 842 feet; Little Cormo rant Lake at 842 feet, and lf it were not - the brief says -- lf it were not for the Canadian National Railway Line to Ch urchill, this lake would extend into Big Cormor ant Lake itself, which has an elevation of 842 feet.

The brief goes on -- dozens of other sm aller lakes would be added to the above lakes that will eventually be one big lake. Then, Mr. Chair man, and I think this is very significant, the brief goes on to say that the above facts can be substantiated from the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board Grand Rapids Project key map of the power site and reservoir. However, standard maps show a much lower elevation, some of these three feet less than those shown on the Hydro map, so I think , Mr.

Chairman, that there's more to it than using the opening sentences of the brief which refers to an elevation of 846 feet, and the elevatlon as suggested by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources at 842 feet, because lf the brief is correct, and I suggest -- (Interject ion) -- I don't know. I don't know , and I'm asking the questio ns, and the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources has told the comm ittee tonight that the elevation is going to be at 842 feet.

The brief that I have in front of me enumerates all of these lakes that I have referred to as being less than 842 feet, and also goes on to say, as I have just repeated, saying that there is a discre pancy between the Hydro Board's maps and standard maps of three feet. My honourable friend the Minister of Public Utilities says, "no". I wonder how much consideration he has given to this , because I am sure that the people who have looked into this are not irresponsible people.

They must have rece ived their facts from data that is available to them and also available to the Minister of Public Utilities, and I am SU!."e that I would not have rece ived this brief, indeed I don't think that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources would have received this brief, lf there wasn't substantiatfon in large measure for the facts that are contained in here.

My honourable friend shakes his head, but neither he nor the Minister of Mines and Natural Re sources has given sufficient evidence to this commi ttee to refute what has been in this brief, and I welcome it and that was my purpose this afternoon when I raised the question en the in troduction of the Minister's report. Now then, the Minister also, Mr. Cha irman, made reference -- I believe he made re ference -- to the question of taking care of the Indian population in the area and alternative sites. I gathered that from the Minister.

I want to ask, Sir, was there or was there not a representation made to the Department of Mines and Natural Resources of those concerned with these reservations ? Did the Bishop of Brandon make represen tation to the Department? The reason I say the Bishop of Brandon, and I am speaking of the Bishop of Brandon of the Anglican Fraternity, Mr. Chairman, because I understand that his diocese extends into this whole ;u-ea. I want to know whether or not repre sentations and the fears and the apprehensions of this noted gentleman were made to the department in respect of the people on these reserves.

Was there any satisfactory conclusion arrived at? My honourable friend the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources told us a few moments ago that the conditims in respect of our Indian friends will be far better as a result of the development. He tells us that due to the fact of the industrialization, as the result of the development of Hydro power in around Grand Rapids , that there will be steady employment or employment created for the peoples on the reservations.

But I say to my honourable friend, in all due respect to that, that many of the peoples on our reser vations are perfectly happy and satisfied with carr ying on the lifelong traditions of their great race and nation in trapping and other methods of a livelihood. Many of them do not want to go into industrial emp loyment in pulp mills and the li kes of that. So I ask my hono urable friend -- are they going to be satisfied with the change in the modus opera ndi of their livi ng? To come out of the wilds and go into industrial emp loyment in pulp mills ?

I ask my honourable friend, what guarantee of a satisfactory and acce ptable nature has been made to these people on the reservations who are going to be affected by this development. I think these are very, very pertinent questions. I think the author of this report, or this brief, that I have before me, and also that the Minister has considered, has to be given far more cons ideration than he has been given at the present time. And I say, Mr. Chairman, in all due deference to my honour able friend the Minister of Mines and Natu�al Resources, that when he raises the point, because March 27th, 1961 Page 1339

(Mr. Paul ley, cont'd. ) • . . . • of the fact that this was written by a .man who was assoc iated wi th labour, that he is we ighing up the question of muskrats and fishing and the likes of that as. against the industrialization and furthering of the power requirements of southern Manitoba, I suggest that it is just a red herring over the whole issue. And I want to know from my friend the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, or from his colleag ue, the Minister of Public Utilitie s, who is res ponsible for this development. I appreciate the fact that we do need power.

Let there be no misunderstanding about this . I appreciate the fact that we do need additional power in southern Manitoba, that the re sources on the Winnipeg River have just about, well, they have been used up. That we have had to go into thermo power for the generation of required electrical energy in the southern part of Manitoba. But I do say this; the other surveys have shown that there are alternative sites in northern Manitoba. Poss ibly , Mr. Chairman, they wi ll be more expensive, and I ap preciate that.

But I'm wondering whether or not, in view of the inform ation that I have before us , whether we 're outweighing the short term benefits in reduced costs in the development at Grand Rapids wi th the overall and extended benefits that we will lose in this particular area if those factors that I raised of the benefits of income in trapping, income from our wildli fe, our forests and our mines, are set aside for all time. Because it will be for all time.

Wliether we 're we ighing and prejudicing the future of this very productive area which I think has been established, against a lesser cost of the development at Grand Rapids today. I think this is very pertinent. That, coupled as I mentioned before, with the dislocation of so many of our Indian, Metis and white trappers who have become established in the area. I know, Mr. Chair man, sometimes there is a lot of criticism levied at some of us who happen to be of pale skin variety, of taking away the inherent rights , traditional rights and earned rights of our Indian and Metis friends from them .

The reason that this question arises is that rather than carry on in this development to add more fuel to the fire of the loss of the privile ges and rights of our ancient cousins and brothers in Canada, that we may yet have time before there is too great an expenditure in this particular area, to prevent hardship to these people . Now I would like to ask my friend the Minister -- I'm not trying to raise this, Mr. Chair man, in any sense wi th a political viewpoint or a political attitude.

I'm genuinely concerned, and I'm sure my honourable friend the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is , as to the poss ible consequences on this general area as a result of this development. There is a differ ence of opinion apparently insofar as the elevation levels of the lak es; my honourable friend the Minister of Public Utilities has nodded his head once or twice when I was making references to the elevation of the lakes which will be in the forebay area partly .

These figures -- they're contained in the brief -- surely can be substantiated, and as I said, my honourable friend the Minister of Mines -- my friend is shaking his head again -- I say that the se figures are not figures that were pulle d out of a hat. I say that they have been established. The Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources told us that the elevation level in the forebay area will be 842 feet.

The figures that I have illu strated and taken from this brief indicate many lakes that will be under the 842 elevation level and also establ ishes the fact on this brief that Big Cormo rant Lake itself will be at the level of 842 feet and then goes on to say that there is a discrepancy between standard elevations and those of the Hydro Power map.

And then again I say to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, I think that the committee would be most interested to know as to the question of representations that have been made to him, as I men tioned, or to the government by the Bishop cf Brandon, who is charged wi th the responsibility of some measure of care, at least, to these people, because it is his diocese. Has the govern ment, has the Hydro-Electric Board been able to give any answers that are acceptable to the Indian on reservations and the trapper and the hunter who must speak for themse lves ? I think, Mr. Chairman, this is most pertinent.

I'm sorry to say to my honourable friend, whom I ad mire very, very much, the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that the answers that he has given to me in reply to the points I raised just prior to the supper sitting, have not been satisfactory to me, and I would like to hear further from him as to these additional points which I now raise. MR. SCARTH: Mr. Chairman, wi ll the honourable gentle man permit a question? Has, to your knowledge , or has it ever been suggested, that any mineral discovery has ever been made in any of this area which will be inundated? Page 1340 March 27th, 196 1

MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr. Chairman, I'm very glad that the questlon has been asked of me, because it was a point that I intended to touch on and forgot. And I think that it ls a most pertinent question and requires an answer. My honourable friend the First Minister of the Province, according to Press reports today , on Saturday attended the opening of the smelter at Thompson.

I was privileged as a me mber of the Legislature a few years ago to go on an excursion to northern Manitoba, as the results of the very benevolent Cherokee, of the present Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues, who were in office at the time, to have an oppor tunity to see something of the great north of this province. At that particular time we wer·e shown Moak and Mystery Lakes as a potential for nickel development in northern Manitoba. We were informed at that time that the grade of ore was low grade in that area, and then sub sequently Thompson was discovered. The point that I'm trying to make, Mr.

Chairman, I thank my honourable friend. I agree that there hasn't been any development in this particular area, but surely to goodn ess he will agree with me that there wasn't any development in Thomp son either. Discovered -- (Interj ection) -- no, and there wasn't any dis covery in Thom pson. There wasn't any discovery so far as Chisel Lake was concerned until the last two or three years, of any magnitude. There wasn't any development of Lynn Lake for many years. So I say that the question, the question that my honourable friend raises is a very valid and per tinent one.

And I'm suggesting to him that simply because of the fact that there hasn't been any disc overy of mineral wealth in this particular area, shouldn't be any reason for inundating the area so that those discoveries should not be made . And again, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank my honourable friend for asking me the question. I did have a note of it here, and would have overlooked it if he hadn't asked the question. MR. SCARTH: •.•.•.•••••. on a prospecting trip, Sir. MR. PAULLEY: Well, that may be, Mr. Chairman. Maybe my honourable friend won't take me on a prospecting trip because I might disco ver something.

I think that in this partlcular case I have discov ered something. I think that I have discovered that there hasn't been enough consideration given to the whole aspect of this question of the dev elopment ln this particular area. MR. A. H. CORBETT (Swan River): Excuse me, I can't keep out of this altogether.

I just wish to tell the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that lf he can discover minerals ln that limestone area which extends for 50 miles probably north of that, he will be looked upon as a great Messiah in the north country because the places that he mentions where minerals have been discovered is the Precambrian Shield which is an entirely different formation; and so far as I know the only minerals of value we've discovered in the limestone area is the lime stone that we 're crushing -- the Saskatchewan Cement Com pany or the ••.••••••• Cement Com pany is crushing up at Mafeking there.

They've got acres of it and hundreds of feet of it there, but as far as I lmow there's been no mines in all the history of Canada discovered where the country ts covered with several hundred feet of lime stone, and that overlays all that country until you get to the break in the formation. He mentions the elevations at Cross Lake -- there's two Cross Lakes, one a Little Cross Lake and the Big Cross Lake _;_ and he mentions the Big Cross Lake elevation at 819. Well 819, would mean that if that is connected with that present system they'd never be able to hold any water in for the Grand Rapids Dam.

That Cross Lake is down the Saskatchewan. River about 30 or 40 miles or maybe more than that, I'm not just sure, it doesn't make any difference anyhow. It's not in that area at all, and as far as the power is concerned, the elevation, the ground elevation of The Pas is approximately 865 feet. The big flood they had there in 1948 had reached an elevation I believe of 850 from the Saskatchewan River but it didn't flood any of The Pas. And another thing, lf that country was so good that is being inundated ln there I'm quite sure the Indian population in that area would be greater than it is at the present time.

The population of that area is confined to Moose Lake which has good hlgh banks and well above the elevation of the lake and the Chemah awin where there was a bunch of Caribou poachers used to live there, used to shoot CaribQl for their hides and they weren't a very des irable lot. We didn't think an awful lot of them, but the population in that area is very limited. I'm not so sure, maybe the Minister of Mines and Resources can give me the population; but around Grand Rapids there is a population on the higher ground.

Around Chemahawln right close to Cedar Lake there were on a •••••.•• • there too, but the general country all connected with that forebay lf lt was suitable for any settlement March 27th, 1961 Page 1341

(Mr. Corbett, cont'd. ) .•••• it would have been settled long ago, but it has not been settled. Around Moose Lake there's some settlement, but Moose Lake has high banks and there's some high ground there but even ln flood conditions from the river has been subject to flooding ln the past. MR. PAULLEY: •••..• ••• •.• lf I may, Mr. Chairman, and I regret taking the time of the committee but I just thought -- (Interjection) -- well, all right then, I don't regret it because I think this is very vital to the future of Manitoba, and I don't think that we here in this House should laugh it off.

I think it's very, very serious.

After all, we 're here in the year 1961 and after we 're gone others wlll be following, and I think it is an obligation of those of us that are here today to draw these matters to the attention of governments who have the responsibillty and who have the power to use up our resources to the detriment of future generations, and I want to say to my honourable friend I can appreciate the fact that he may be perfectly correct when he says that the development may have been tremendously larger in this particular area had there been anything found there, but I also want to say to my honourable friend that insofar as development of the whole province itself, we have not yet reached a million of population.

We look to the future. The First Minister and those oppos ite had, as one of their plan�s in their platform, the fact that they were a forward-looking government, and that's all that I'm asking of them today. It might be perfectly true, as my honourable friend, the Member for Swan River has said, that there have been no discoveries in these areas but I want to point out to him, and that's the point that I'm trying to establish, what investigation has there been made, before these areas are lost, as assuredly it appears from the brief that we have before us ?

If it can be substantiated, and I make no apologies for us ing the word "if" in this case. All I'm asking is of this comm ittee and of this Legislature and those responsible today -- are you sure, are you sure that the action you are taking today will not prejudice the development for the future? I've no poiitical axe to grind and I've stated that. I'm sincerely apprvaching this just with that obj ective in view, and I can appreciate very much the remarks of my honourable friend the Member for Swan Rlver.

There haven't been a developm ent there, but surely he will agree with me that there hasn't been the development in the whole of the Province of Manitoba which the resources of the province should be entitled to. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to deal with this same topic, so perhaps the Minister wouldn't mind.

The Minister perhaps knows or will recall that when the United States Federal Government undertook the development generation of hydro,-electricity in the Tennessee Valley in the early 1930s, they did so only upon the setting up of an authority which had the general power and authority to not only look at the generation and distribution of power, but also had the authority to decide upon matters relating to conservation and allied matters.

Now, I think that the point that my leader is raising, with very valid reason, the fact that so far we have not been given adequate explanation as to whether or not we in this province did, in fact, have any department play in the role of the "devil's advocate" at the time when the decis ion was made to go ahead with Grand Rapids.

The Minister should be able to assure us here that at the time that the Hydro-Electric Board and the government dec ided to go ahead with Grand Rapids that the Department of Mines and Resources did, in fact, evaluate and assess the natural life resources that might be lost as a result of this decis ion. We haven't really been advised of this to any appreciable extent, and I think we are entitled to some more full explanation as to who did play the role of the "devil1s advocate"; what resources will be lost, and so on. I think that this is a good point. MR. WITNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I'm a little surprised that this subject of Grand Rapids comes up now,_ because if I recall correctly, it was a matter for the Throne Speech, not this year but the year before. It seems rather strange that after we have gone through a whole year and two legislative sessions, and we're in the second, that the matter of Grand Rapids should come up now. One would think that the matter would come up at the time the subject had been referred to in the Throne Speech back in 195 9.

I think that the whole matter should perhaps be fully clarified, because I apparently haven't been able to satisfy my honourable friends with the remarks that I made, but I was unfortunately unable to get hold of this memorandum which had been written ln answer to the point that had been made by this brief from Flin Flon, and it had been filed away and during the supper hour I wasn't able to find it. I think maybe as a re sult of the interest and the result of the concern, that I had better enter back into the announcing Page 1342 March 27th, 1961

(Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) ••••. abillty, and to read, so that this will be on the records, and my honourable friend will be able to study the brief versus the answers, and it may take a llttle time with no comm erc ials in between, Mr. Chairman. Page 1, Paragraph 3 -- (Interjection) -w e'll do that -- (Interjection) -- I won't be con trolling that one tonight. First attention to development at Grand Rapids for power purposes was given about 1912 when a series of low head plants were studied.

The costs estim ated at that time were naturally high and the distance from the load centres, plus the fact that more attractive sites on the Winnipeg River were available, made the development of Grand Rapids unattractive. Later on during the 1930's, attention was given to the Dauphin River power scheme which involved diversion of the Saskatchewan River into Lake Winnipegosis, thence to Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg via the Dauphin River where a single head development of approximately 90 feet was studied.

The main advantage of this scheme was the fact that it brought the source of power closer to the southern part of the province and thereby reduced the estimated cost of transmiss ion. The cost of power for this particular development was considerably above that which power could be developed for on the Winnipeg River and, in ad dition, excess ive flooding around the shore of Lake Manitoba would be involved. With the rapid development of soils mechanics after about 1940, it became practical to build much higher earth fill dykes.

Considerable advancement in the techniques of long distance power transmissi on also took place about the same period. With this knowledge, in 1953 the Board again directed attention to the Grand Rapids power site thinking in terms of a single plant development. Investigations and studies were advanced during the period 1953 to 1956 and resumed again in 1959 and indicated that power could be developed at Grand Rapids and transmitted to the southern part of the province at considerably less cost than any of the pre vious schemes which utilized the flow of the Saskatchewan Rlver.

Page 1, Paragraph 5 - The memorandum states that the upper llmlt of the reservoir will be at elevation 846. � The Board's application for an interim licence requests the right to an upper limit of elevation 842 with permissi on to go to elevation 844 at a later date should operating conditions at elevation 842 warrant the higher level to be both practical and econo mi cal.

No change in the major structures for the increase is anticipated, but some additional freeboard dykes would probably be required and seepage through the bedrock in areas that are not curtain grouted would be an important factor in the decis ion to increase head. Page 2, Paragraph 1- The reservoir created by the forebay is estimated at 2, 400 square miles and not 3, 100 square miles as indicated in the memorandum. Furthermore, it is quite likely that the upper portion of Moose Lake would be controlled at a lower level by a regulating dam at the Narrows.

Surveys are underway on this structure, although no definite decisi on has been made. The Department of Mines and Natural Resources are quite interested in controlling the northern part of Moose Lake at a lower level and it would likely be required for the Board's purpose in the event that they raised the elevation to 844 to prevent flooding along the Hudson's Bay Railway adjacent to� Cormorant Lake. At elevation 842, Cedar Lake and Moose Lake con tinue to be separated by a height of land, although connected through Moose Creek and the Dead River.

Page 2, Paragraph 3 - Again we would point out that the reservoir is estim ated to be 2, 400 square miles and certainly we cannot allow the reservoir to interfere with the Canadian National Railway line to Churchill. During the late fall, the Saskatchewan Rlver will enter the reservoir at a point a few miles below the Town of The Pas as indicated but, during the spring and early summer conditions will be much the same as at present. Page 3, Paragraph 2 - Creation of the Grand Rapids power reservoir will in no way af fect flooding in the vic inity of the Town of The Pas.

Furthermore, large reservoirs being created upstream including the South Saskatchewan, Squaw Rapids and the Brazeau River will tend to reduce flood flows and provide a more uniform flow in the river through The Pas area. Page 3, Paragraph 3 -W e see no concern in any delta forming downstream from The Pas. This would be si milar to the present formation at the inlet to Cedar Lake which does not retard the river during periods of high flow, since the river quickly cuts its way through any sediments that are deposited.

Page 3, Paragraph 4- We are of the opinion that the ultimate costs of the Grand Rapids project, as presently estimated, are realistic and quite adequate to do the job. March 27th, 1961 Page 1343

(Mr. Witney, cont'd.) ••..• Page 4, Para graph 2 - Cedar Lake and Bignell Indian Reserves will be extensively flooded, but the effect on Moose Lake Rese rvation is only marginal . The Btgnell Reserve is presently uninhabited and negotiations are underway with the Indian Affairs Branch for exchange of lands to provide new Indian Reserves. We see no losses being incurred in the vicinity of the Cormorant Lake settlement other than the possible effect of trapping on the Summerberry fur block.

Page 4, Paragraph 3 - Present plans, as developed by the Forebay Commi ttee are de signed to keep all affected se ttlers within the area. Some of these, particularly those at and in the vicinity of Chemaha win, will be moved to a new location probably east of Collins Island on the eastern shore of Cedar Lake. Planning and negotiations are advancing satisfactorily and the inhabitants are being kept fully tnformed and involved ln the choice of any new location. At Moose Lake , only a re-arrangement of buildings is required to remove some of the dwelltngs that would be affected by flooding along the shoreline.

Surveys of roads to both the new location for Chemahawln and to Moose Lake are presently underway. Page 4, Par agraph 4 - Every effort is being made to provide adequate compensation and maintain, as near as possible, equivalent economic conditions. Page 5, Pa ragraph 1 - Every effort is being made to co-o perate with the Indian Affairs Branch and, in an exchange of letters between the Ministers of the Federal and Provincial De partments concerned, the intent is clearly spelled out.

The only major move required is that for Chemahawin and, as ment·ioned above, it is likely that the new location will he on the east ern shore of Cedar Lake , but the exact location will only be decided upon after the settlers concerned are in agreement. Page 5, Paragraph 2 -W e apprecia te the moral obligations of the Government towards the Indians and these will be observed in all negotiations. Page 6, Para graph 1 - The Fish ·and Wildlife Service of the United States Department of the Interior has completed an extensive survey of the area and thei:.c· report should shortly be available .

Certainly there will be loss in resources values, although this is not so i.n the case of every type. For instance, comm ercial fishing is considered to improve. These values are less than that which will be obtained from the development of power, and several programs are planned to offset the effects of forebay flooding. There should be little or no effect to any mineral resources due to flooding since access to these should not be affect.ed too much, as suming, of course, that there are mineral values in existence, which we are inclined to doubt.

Page 6, Para graph 2 - Available information does not indicate any extensive mineral resources in the area concerned. The limest one is approxim ately 500 to 600 feet thick in the area and is underlaid by the Preca mbrian Shield •. Page 6, Para graph 3 - The prices mentioned in the memorandum for clearing at Grand Rapids are for hand clearing in the imme diate fore bay where care must be taken not to block or hide any sink holes that might exist near the proposed structures. Machine clearing, which is also in progress over a much wider area, is be ing done at prices of $79. 50 and $89. 50 per acre.

We understand that the Forest Service is arranging to dispose of any merchantable tim ber that might be affected by flooding. Generally speaki ng, the forest cover affected by flood ing in the immediate vic inity of the plant is of no merchantable value. It is not intended to clear the entire forebay other than that area immed iately upstream from the project and areas which the Forest Service deem necessa ry, which would be carried out under a ten�y-ear plan established for the purpose. Page 7, Paragraph 1 - Commerci al fishing, we understand is ltkely to improve in the area after rais ing the forebay.

This is indicated by local Fisheries authorities, as well as Fish and Wildlife Service in the United States Department of the Interior. Page 7, Par agraph 2 - We accept the statement that trapping of fur bearing animals will be adversely affected by the project. Page 7, Para graph 3 - The following figures may be of interest as com pared to those quoted in the memo randum. During the term of the Summerberry Fur Farm project, 1940 to 1959 (20 years) , a total of $4, 71 3, 000 worth of fur has been removed involving a total of 10, 115 trappers, an average of about $250, 000 per year for 500 trappers.

In that time 2, 612, 000 muskrats were caught . Tne best cr?P was obtained in 1946 when a gross of Page 1344 March 27th, 19Q1

i (Mr. Wltney, cont'd. ) ••••• $813 , 240 was real !.zed Lnvolvlng 1, 048 trappers. The pelt price that year averaged $2. 48. From the forego lng , it will be noted that the crop value varies con·· siderably fro m year to year, both due to production and to price.

Page 8, Paragraph 2 - With the possibillty of a control dam at the Narrows in Moose Lake, the area north and west of Moose Lake would be available for agricultural development, if preferable to wildlife. ' Page 8, Paragraph 3 - and here it refers to some personal people which I don't think we should mention right at this moment. · Page 8, Paragraph 4- It is questionable to what extent the Grand Rapids forebay will affe ct water fow l. Also, there are numerous fringe areas which improvements can be ef fected to offs et open water disadvantag es.

Page 9, Paragraph 1 - Normally, Ln spring and early summer the reservoir will be at its lower level which ls similar to that in the state of nat ure. It will be raised gradually through late summer and fall and lowered down agaln gradually during the winter mont hs. Page 9, Paragraph 2 - We doubt if anyone would object to an inve stigation but we are confident that the conclusions would favo ur power development. Page 9, Paragraph 4- The only adverse eff ect of the project on the Town of The Pas would be Ln trapping and hunting •.

There are several ways in which the project is a beneflt to The Pas, including employment and the purchasing power c;.·eated by a demand for supplies and aerial transportation. . Page 10 - Thls is gener ally a recap of previous statements. Certainly the cost of the development should not excede $143 million dollars and could be somewhat less.

Page 12, Paragraph 1 - The drop through Grand Rapids is 70 feet and not 100 feet as ind icated, and any power development designed to avoid flooding on Cedar Lake would have inadequate storage capacity considering the fa:ct that the flow ln the Saskatchewan Rlver varies from a high of about 100, 000 cubic feet per second to a low of about 1, 800 cubic feet per second. Such a development would be much more costly per unit of power produced than the scheme presently under construction. There you are, Mr.

Chairman, our answ ers wlth respect to this brief that has been re ceived, and the honourable member will have the opportunity to study them at his leisure. I should like to draw to your attention too, the Memorandu m of Understanding between the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board and the Department of Mines and Natural Resources of the Province of Manito ba, which provides for an expenditure up to $3 million over the next ten years. These studies will be· initiated and are well unde rway, some of them at the present time.

A study to determine what timber salvage is possible and what other clearing would be required to the upper forebay area, and when al:!d how much clearing will be undertake n, and other for estry problems associated with the Grand Rapids Hydro-Electric development. A special study of the Mawdesley area to determine how it should be developed; whether it should be developed for agriculture Ln the future or for wildlife.

A study of the problems involved in moving and re-settling the Indian and half- breed. settlements at Moose Lake and Chemahawin, including the method of pay ment of compensation for damage and inconvenience suff ered by such Indians and half- breeds. A study to determine the practicabllity of constructing works or developments which would substantially offset the adverse effects of the power development on wildlife .

Consideration will be given to the possible construction of auxlliary reservoirs along the borders of the lower forebay area in which water can be maintained during the time that the maln reservoir is belng filled, so that during the periods of drawdown in the main reser voir, water in the auxlliary reservoir can be maintained at a level suitable for wildlife pur poses. A study to determine what, if any, steps will be required to protect the flshery in the forebay area, the improvement of spawning beds, etcetera.

A study in respect of future zoning in the Grand Rapids area, including in dustrial, resi dential and recreational developments. Then we have studies to affe ct the free traders in the area and two studies to affe ct the free traders Ln the area at Moose Lake and also the Lamb cattle ranch. March 27th, 1961 Page 1345

(Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) •..• I feel, Mr.

Chairman that we have taken every precaution, that all the study that was necessa ry was given to this project before; that it has not been a rush deci si on, nor has it been a rash decis ion, and I feel also that in the economic welfare of the pro vince that the Grand Rapids Power Development is necessary, and you wi ll see from these studies and from what has been read, that we will be able to offset to a cons iderable degree, and in some degree we will be able to have more intensive management of the resources of that particular area and I should like to say that I think that the Indian people and the Metis people are ready to progress.

I think that they have gone beyond that pos ition of just wanting to stay on the reservation forever. With education, I think they want to have new opportunitie s.

I think they want to learn a new trade such as forestry; I think they want to have tb,ese roads which we are going to investigate into Chemahawin and into Moose Lake, and I think, in general, that the Grand Rapids forebay for the people of Grand Rapids , for the people of Chemahawin who are goi.D.g to be moved, for the people of Moose Lake, and even for those Indian people up in The Pas area, and that eventually over the period that it will be proven that the Grand Rapids Development will be of greater value to them.

I even feel that with the care that we can take, that the wild life damage will be offset very considerably indeed. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I apprec iate very much the trouble that the Minister has taken to lay this information before the comm ittee. First of all, I make no apologies for not having raised this particular question over the course of two --the Throne speeches.

I think the Minister will appreciate, as I'm sure most members of the comm ittee will, that the mere fact of this question appeari ng in a throne speech a couple of years ago 'only gave impe tus to investigation into the whole matter, and the reason I'm rais ing the questions this year, or at this particular time, is because of the fact that the information is only just now being placed in my hands. I think, and I would apprec iate --I don't think that the Minister answered my question in respect of the energies of the Bi shop of Brandon on behalf of the Indian on the reserves.

I asked him whether or not representations had been made, whether as a result of those representations any satisfactory conclusion had been reached between the parties con cerned. Now, in the last document that the Minister referred to he indicated a number of studies wi ll be made as to the net res ults of the creation of this reservoir in the forebay. The point that I raised I think has been substantiated by the Honourable the Minister wi th his last docume nt.

My question, and I think it was pertinent, I still think it's a very pertinent and not an imp ertinent question, and the Minister certainly hasn't indicated that it was --but how much of this study was made prior to go ing in to the development at Grand Rapids ? He tells us that these things are going to be done. He made reference there to expenditures of money. I be lieve one amount of money, as I recall it --I didn't jot it down --was somewhere in the neigh bourhood of $3 milli on.

I'm not sure whether that was for co mpensation or otherwise, but there was this, that studies are going to be made as to the net effect on our fur-bearing ani mals; studies are going to be made insofar as the net results , poss ible results, in reference to our wildlife in the particular area; that studies are going to be made in respect of agricultuml development in the particular area. And the point has been raised in the brief that I have re ferred to, and in the remarks that I am making, is the question that it does appear.

It does appear that these studies were not made to any great conclus ion prior to the development. And they're now being drawn to the attention of this commi ttee as a result of thinking on this. And I apprecia te the fact, J.lllr. Chairman, that sometimes hinds ight is a lot better than fores ight. And these questions may not have been contemplated or cons idered just by the announcement of the development at Grand Rapids at the time the announcement was made. So I think it is justi fiable that these questions should be raised at this particular time.

I think the Minister · has substantiated just reasons as to why they should be. raised now. And again, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to carry on this --can't actually call it a debate because I think that it is very, very vital. The Minister has drawn to the attention of the commi ttee the answers of the department in respect of many of the items that have been raised, and I apprec iate that very, very much. And I thank him for it.

These are very, very pertinent questio ns , I think, and require answers, some of which have been given, but as I mentioned a moment or two ago, Sir, that by the very fact that either the Hydro-Electric Board or whoever is responsib le, that studies are now being made, or will be made, as to the net effect of this on the area is an indicator that they were not done before. Now the Minister mentioned the fact that I believe it was the United States, some Page 1346 March 27th, 1961 \

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) .•.• United States Department, was in, and possibly are working at the present time, to try to assess the damage that might result, or the dis placement if you don't like the word damage, which might occur, as a result of this de\ 'elopment. So I think it's very, very vital that these questions should be raised and should be considered by the con:mi ttee. :MR. ROBLIN: :Mr.

Chairman, I think that I may be the only one wi th whom the Bishop of Brandon had any conversation about this particular development, so perhaps I should respond to the request of my honourable friend for information on that point. I think a very suitable term was used by the Member for Brokenhead when he as ked, ''\\no was the devil's advocate?" Be cause I think I can say that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources was certainly one of the "devil's advocates" in this particular matter. In fact, I think that you can say that the whole of the Cabinet has done his share in that role in this project.

I think that it's necessary to un derstand how these things develop in order to come to some conclusions as to whether the right thing was done or not. The sequence of events is this: that in the first instance it is up to the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board to decide, or to recommend to the government, what in their view from a technical and economic point of view, as providers of hydro-electric power, what in their view is the proper sequence of development of the various posibilities that are open in respect of hydro electricity. That's the first thing.

And members wi ll know that for many years, as the Minister has said, they have been considering the correct sequence of develop ment of various types of power supply, thermo and hydro-electric alike. And it is only when they come to the point that they are wi lling to recommend to the government that in their con sidered opinion a certain project is the best one from an economic and technical point of view, that the matter becomes one of which we take notice -- in notice in the sense in which I am go ing to elaborate on in a minute. So that's exactly what happened.

The first thing is that the Hydro-Electric Board tells us and convinces us and we endeavour to convince the House that a development at Grand Rapids is the next best step to tak'l in Hydro-Electric development in the province. That, of course, is what happened. That, of course, is that set of decis ions which come first and on which we have to dec ide whether ·we're going to recommend to the House that we proceed or not. That, of course, is just what happened.

That piece of advice was tendered to us with pretty com·inc ing evidence that this was the proper thing to do, and I don't think there's much dis pute about that anywhere, that it is the proper thing to do from an economic point of view. Now it's at that stage that it becomes not only the responsibility of the Hydro-Electric Board, which it is in the first instance, but also the responsib ility of the Adm inistration to co-ordinate all the things that are going on in that area, and to make sure that a full account is taken of the prob lems which that economic development calls for.

Now, the first thing that you have to recognize is that no matter how sound and attractive a project of this sort is from the economic point of view , somebody else is going to think that it's not so good, because they are people perhaps who are immediately affected personally and individually by these developments, and one of the things that we have to watch very carefully is to see that the most full and sympathetic consideration is given to their si tuation.

One must understand that when a vast project like this takes place and small individual people like the Indian and Metis settlers up there, and others, are affected, that they must look to the govern ment for justice; they must look to the government for a sympathetic handling of the problem, and for a full consideration of their situation. Now we have tried to give that full and proper consideration of their situation in that respect.

As a result, it becomes apparent that from the point of view of the natirral resources in the area, which has been fully discussed, and I won't go into it again, in respect also of the people who are in that area, and any other factors that are germane, arrangements have to be made to take care of the problems that arise. So hav ing made your decision, that it's a good thing to go ahead, you then do what you can to devise those relatives and reliefs which are obviously required for the problems it created, both human and material in the area.

That is exactly what we have tried to do and I wouldn't like the Leader of the CCF Party to think that it was only after we got considerably advanced, let us say, in the project of build ing the plant, that we started to think about these other things, because they all happened at about the same time. And over the course of the last two years we have been negotiating wi th the Hydro-Electric Board to put down in writing the best we can, all the things that need to be March 27th, 196 1 Page 1347

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd. ) ..•• taken care of and looked into in this respect, particularly with respect to the human beings .concerned. Now the answers to these problems are not obvious. '!'he an swers to these problems require a good deal of consideration and study from all angles to try and get the best solution.

And that is the reason why, in the agreement with the Hydro-Electric Board, we endeavoured to stipulate those things we thought should be looked into, knowing full well that they would not provide the answers overnight; knowing full well that there would have to be a study, but also knowing that it would be some three or four years from the time that we begin this thing that the water actually appears on the scene and the problems that we anticipate begin to become actual.problems. So we have a little leeway of time to try and settle these dif ficult matters.

I want to assure the commi ttee, and may I say in parenthesis that I think it is quite proper that members should ask what we're doing about this, and believe me, there's no exception taken by my colleagues or myself to those questions. Because there's nothing the matter with "those questions at all. All I'm trying to say is that I think we have, to the best of our ability, taken them into account. I listened very carefully to the different speeches that were made, and I really cannot think of any major matter which we did not also agree should be taken care of in these negotiations .

So as a result, a comm ittee was set up to administer the terms of the agreement that has been read and other matters which come up, because we don't think it's all-inclusive conclusive. There'll be problems we haven't thought of, because we're human. It will require some consideration, but we think we've got the major ones nailed down. A comm ittee was set up in which the government was represented and in which the Hydro Board was represented, to review what the Hydro Board was doing to make sure that they were taking into account the human and natural problems involved and were arriving at the best solu tion.

Some of the terms of reference of that commit tee, most of them I think, have been placed before the comm ittee now so we know what they're tryi� to do. Now in addition to that, this supervisory comm ittee has underneath it a number of sub commit tees, the most im portant ones of which are those that are dealing with the people.

Their sub-comm ittees have been set up on the spot in The Pas and in the neighborhood, to cons ider the problems on the spot with the Indians and Metis who are affected and other folks, to try and get answers which they will agree, so far as humauly possible, huinan nature being what it ts , they will agree as being fair and just.

Now to make sure that this was done, and to make sure that we were not in hibited for lack of funds or anything of that sort, it's been arranged that the Hydro Electric Board will set aside a very substantial sum of money -- we hope it all won't be required, but at least it's taken into account in financial arrangements -:- a substantial amount of money to see that these measures are carried out and that we have the resources and understanding right from the start that these things have to be done, that money will have to be spent and very con siderable time and consideration will have to be given to the points that have been raised, so we have tried as a government.to be that "devil' s advocate" that has been referred to, and while I wouldn't say that we thought of everything, I do think we have thought of the major points that have been raised here tonight, and we have set up machinery and mechanism for settiing them and for solving them; we did think of it when the whole project was first envisaged.

Some of the propo sals that were in the original terms of reference are well advanced. I think some of them are completed. I think the United States people have come and gone, although there may be further studies, reports yet to be heard from them. But I want to lay before the commi ttee and to re inforce what the Minister said, that we have tried to consider all these things.

We've set up the machinery to do · it, and as· far as we can tell on the basis of present results, it's going for ward in a sati sfactory manner, and that anyone that writes us a letter and expresses any fears on this matter, is taken seriously. We try to answer their objections or their observations in ·· a reasonable way and to explain what we're trying to do, and I think that the discussion in the House wlll help perhaps to give a wider public knowledge and inform ation of what's going on in this respect.

So I just intervened to make those few remarks because I had the excuse to do so when you talked about the Bis hop of Brandon, because -- (Interjection) -- well, don't worry, I'll come to him. The Bishop of Brandon was in to see me and he expressed his fears for the future of the native peoples in Grand Rapids, and, I am working now in my memory, but my recollection is that I gave him a pretty full account along the lines of what the Minister said tonight, of the measures that were being taken, and I suggested to him furthermore, that if he Page 1348 March 27th, 196 1

\ I (Mr.

Roblin, cont'd. ) .. . had any reservations about it o:r;. if he thought that there was anything we overlooked that should have been taken into account, I would very much welcome his vis it ing us again and giving us his views, and as a matter of fact he undertook to do that, and my present understanding is that I'm to have the pleasure of a visit from him some time in the fairl y near future, at which time we will again review progress to date and see if we think that the matter is going all right, and he is going to be very helpful to us, I know, because he can give us in a rather unique way, some idea of the feelings and the fears and the troubles that will vex the minds of the Indians and Metis and other people up there who are concerned, and that is extremely important for us to have that kind of contract wtth the people concerned.

And our great worry is that we wouldn 't like to think of any grandiose public development mov ing in there and sort of riding rough-shod over the rights of the humans and the individuals whose way of life and whose homes are stake in this issue, and I must say that I'm grateful that the Bishop came to see us, and we' re looking forward to see ing him again and will hear what he has to say. But our point of view is that we're willing and happy to hear the represen tations of any group that are interested in this project .

There may be very good ideas that they can give us as to how we can do a better job and we're looking forward to the contributions that they can make. We're trying to consider as reasonable people what we ought to do here. We think we have the main points covered, but we're glad to hear any observations that might help us to do a better job. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, I might just add a word on the - to what the Premier has said here.

I would li.ke to assure my honourable friends that the Hydro-Electric Board is certainly aware of the costs with respect to the natural resources in the area that was to be affected, and in fact there was a great deal of interest in this matter in The Pas and I went up there last year and I happened to have the notes before me, on a speech that I made on April the 27th. It was a combi ned meeting of The Pas Chamber of Commerce and the Farmers' As sociation up there, at which time we discussed fully the loss in resources and potential resources of that area as the result of the Hydro-Electric development.

That was at The Pas, and at the same time, of course, we had representatives there from Moose Lake and people who have in terests in the actual flooded area. Now as I recall, Dr. Bell was wi th me on that occas ion; we did discuss agriculture and potential agriculture in the same area, and since that meeting I've had' no complaints coming from that area with respect to the presentation that was II!ade at that time, but I would like to assure you that the costs of resources were studied very, very fully by the Board at that time.

Now there was some suggestion, too, made with respect to other sources of power that might be developed without the adverse effects, and I presume that my friend is thinking of the Nelson River Power developm ent as opposed to the Saskatchewan River. The only other alternative , of course, is additions to coal and steam.

If that's what my honour able friend is thinking, I would like to read into the record some of the order of magnitude costs which were available and which were presented at the same meeting; and the costs are these: the Grand Rapids is being developed at a cost of $350 per kilowatt, developing 330, 000 kilowatts at that si te. The cost of transmissi on from Grand Rapids is $22, 500 , 000. Whiskey Jack, which is a site on the Nelson Hiver, we can develop at a cost of $480 per kilowatt -- substantially higher. The size of that particular devel opment would be 140, 000 kilowatts .

Now Whiskey Jack is 370 miles from Winnipeg. The cost of transmissi on -- they would have to use a differ ent type of two-wire instead of three-wire transmiss ion and the cost of transmiss ion, estimated in order of magnitude, $74 million from Whiskey Jack to the Winnipeg area. Now there are two other locations which must be developed one in conjunction with the other. There's Whitemud Falls at a cost of $275 per kilowatt for 230, 000 kilowatts ; and Red Rock Falls at $350 per kilo watt for 17 0, 000 kilowatts ; making a total development there of 400 ,0 00 kilowat ts.

It's a pretty subst antial plant but the cost of transmissi on from that area, 400 miles, is approximately $80 million; so you see the substantial difference in cost. The Nelson River power was considered as was Grand Rapids and, as I mentioned last week, Grand Rapids was only marginally preferable to further additions to coal steam , so I think that if we're thinking in terms of other capacity, we have developed the right one in terms of economics and power generation. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tell us how many people will have to be moved out of the area?

Give us a breakdown of how many Indian and Metls and how many white settler s? March 27th, 1961 Page 1349

MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, there'll be mostly Indian and Metis people -- about 750 of them. I think the breakdown is approximately 50-50 on Indian an.d 50% Metis. The white people are Ln very small numbers. There's only a matter of, I'd say, about under a dozen. MR. GUTTORMSON: Was there much privately-owned land that had to be purchased, and how was it purchased? Was it expropriated, or what method was used wi th the land that is privately owned? MR. WITNEY: There was no privately-owned land to my knowledge involved in the area. It was all Crown land or Indian Reserve land. MR.

GUTTORMSON: Where are the Indian and Metis being moved ? Has it been decided where they're going to be taken? MR. WITNEY: There are three sites that are being looked at at the present time. Three sites have been studied and the Indian people have been looking at them themselves, the Indian and the Metis people, and the sites that will be chosen will be chosen by the Indian and Metis themselves. There is one on the east and south side of Cedar Lake closer to Grand Rapids it self. I believe here is another on the south and the west and I'm not sure where the other one is, but there are three. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I was interested ln the figures that the HonolU'able the Minister of Publlc Utllities gave and, if I heard him correctly, he said that the only alternatives were going to the Nelson River or else to steam. I just woudered if he had the com parable figures and I' m sure it would be interesting to have them on the record at this same time wi th regard to the Dauphin River scheme.

That one was considered, and I believe that the Dauphin River and the Saskatchewan and Grand Rapids are mutually exclusive -- it was a case of balancing one against the other -- and I'm just wondering if the Minister had those figures. It would be nice to have those at the same time. MR. CAROLL: I'm afraid that I don't have the figures available at the moment, Tner·d were two problems with respect to the Dauphin River scheme as I recall it. They weren't able to develop as much head on the Dauphin River as they are able to develop at the pl ,eseut Grand Rapids site.

Secondly, there wU l be of course much greater property damage as a result of maintaining the reservoir on Lake Manitoba, so there are these disadvantages. Presumably, the disadvantages are so substantial it rules it out as an economic proposition in relation to the other possibilities. Thls site was not even considered se1·tou sly to my know ledge and hasn't been s lnce the 19 30's. MR.

CAMPBELL: I think it was considered very seriously since then, but my under standing was that it had been found uneconomical as compared with Grand Rapids some time ago, but I just wondered if the figures had been taken because I believe those two were direct alternatives to one another. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I' m also interested in the cost figures of -- once the Grand Rapids development is completed, what is the price going to be for power once it will be transmitted to southern Manitoba and being used here? What wi ll they have to charge for that power ? MR. WITNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I think we're on the Department of Mines and Natural Resources estimates and I submit to you that that was a question that should have been. asked under the Department of Public Utilities. MR. DOW: We have talked pretty well of the north country in regards to this department, but I would like to add a few remarks to what I consider the forgotten south over the past num ber of years.

One of the remarks made in the heading of the Mines and Natural Resources book, page 124, in regard to summer resorts and public camp sites, it says: "the enjoyment ·o f outdoors beyond our urban centres has become increasingly a greater part of modern living. " This I substantiate and believe. In the past year I had the pleasure of accompanying the Minister of Natural Resources on a n extensive tour in what I call the better part of Manitoba and the gateway of Manitoba for United States tourists, that is, through the Turtle Mountains.

I think he will agree with me that in that one day we saw more activity from wild life than you sometimes see in the Assiniboine Park, and all in its natural state. I must comm end the Minister that certain improvements have been made in the Turtle Mountains much to the pleasure of -- and here again, Sir, I'm not speaking of the Turtle Mountain constituency, because that area services at least eight or nine constituencies in the southwestern part of Page 1350 March 27th, 1961.

(Mr. Dow, cont'd. ) ••••• Manitoba. It is one of the few natural summer recreation grounds undeveloped that we have within the province; particularly within the southwestern province. Now, Sir, if you will consider that in 1959 that in the ports of entrance from United Stat es, in the customs entrance that are adjacent to the Turtle Mountain Forest Reserve, that there were double the entries that there were in the Gretna port and there were half as many as ther� were in the Emerson port.

I'm safe to say that a big part of the revenue for the Province of Manitoba from non-resident tourists for game and hunting licences came out of that area than it did from any other part of Manitoba. There is no question that the area that I'm talking about is one of the points that could be the delight of all the province if it was developed.

We talk about the various landmarks and trademarks we might have to attr act tourists , and we go to Bemidji and we see Paul Bunyon and his blue cow; we go to the north country and they have their Trapper's Festival; ·· and I submit to you, Sir, that the old. sleeping turtle that was the landmark through the commission trail of the old pioneers that came in to homestead southwestern Manitoba is something that we can develop, of intere st to this genera tion and generations to come. The old sleeping turtle is a landmark on the horizon of a series of hills that are above the flood level.

It is also the second highest elevated area that we have in the Province of Manitoba and, with the planning that can be developed through the Mines and Re sources Branch, I am sure that we have an attraction here that will be attractive not only to the tourists from United States , butl submit to you that a lot of the people of urban Winnipeg would be delighted in having the opportunity of going back to nature in its rough, if it was developed as I think it can be .

I was interested in the Minister's remarks today in regards to certain events that have · happened in regards to shooting of ducks, particularly redheads and canvasbacks. As you know, again in this particular area, we have a shooting area. The Whitewater Marsh is one of the outstanding shooting grounds in the province. It's one of the permanent migration areas from the birds in the north to the south and it does attract hundreds, I would say literally hundreds of hunters from all over Canada and United States.

I can sympathize with him, that what he said about the hunters shooting redheads and canvasbacks and trapping them in the mud, is true. It's not what I'd like to say is true sportmanship but, nevertheless it's a fact, and just how we're going to get around it , whether we require more enforcement officers I don't know. But it is something that concerns me, that sportsmen, thatwill go out and take advantage of the laws of our country, will do those things.

One other point that I have mentioned, and the Minister is well acquainted with, is the flooding of the natural habitat of breeding grounds for the wild fowl in this same Whitewater area. I mentioned before that it is a control deal from the Water Conservation or the Mines and Resources Branch. I don't know who's responsibility it is but, in my opinion, it is not an expensive job.

It's something that we should take advantage of what nature provided and in so doing, rather than have the disadvantage of the floods coming in the spring after the eggs have been laid and the flooding has destroyed the natural nesting ground of the wild fowl, that it could be controlled to preserve this and would have some bearing on increasing our duck population which the Minister is so concerned with and which I share his concern. I mention these few things in our particular area, Sir, and I do so in the belief that the Minister is acquainted with it.

He has shown some improvements wit hin the last year and I hope that in 1961 -62 he will continue his endeavours to the best interests of Manitoba. MR. TANCHAK: I think the Honourable Minister will recall that during the last session I had, on several occasions, spoken to him about summer resorts and/or a game and fish preserve south of Gardenton. Also he had a request from the Gardenton Chamber of Commerce to check into the advisability of establishing such a resort south of Gardenton. The Minister promised that he would check into th is.

He promised me, and I think the Chamber of Commerce got that answer too, and I wish to report that I think there was -- I know in fact that there was a biological and a topographical survey in that area this last summer. I would like the Minister to indicate what the result of this survey was. If he has it on hand now, if not, later. He could answer it later. MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, I know that the biological surveys were made but I'm not familiar with what the results of them were, and I'll have to obtain that for the honourable member for a later date .

I must comment on the remarks made by the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain because I did have a very pleasant trip _through the Turtle Mountain area March 27th, 1961 Page 1351

(Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) .•.•• and will agree with him that it is a very fine area. We are, at the present time, delineating the area as a provincial park and we are completing our work so that the lake area up there, Lake William, will be in operation this year for the travelling public. We have been also around Whitewater Lake investigating the possibility of pUtchasing the pri vate parcels of land so that we will be able to have a buffer zone of Crown land around the whole of the Whitewater Lake.

We have been investigating also in the area some reports that Crown land had been cultivated instead of being used for hay cutting as it was supposed to have been. We recognize the Whitewater Marsh as a very valuable waterfowl area, and I can assure him that everything· will be done to see that lt is maintained in that position, because we are in the position where we must maintain all the waterfowl nesting areas that we have in the province to a maximum degree of efficiency. To be continued on next page. Page 1352 March 27th, 19 61 .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Res olution 53 - passed. Item 2 - Forestry Branch (a) -p assed; (b) passed; (c) -p assed; (d) -p assed; (e) -p assed; (f) -p assed. Res olution 54 ..... MR. CAMPBE LL: Mr . Chairman there is one matter that I wish to raise in regard to Forest Management; perhaps there 's some other item under which it could come but it seemed · to me that this was the appropriate one .

I'm told that the Pine Falls Paper Mill is now being pretty choosy about the wood that they take for their operations the re; that they are taking only choice green wood, and that this has created a cons iderable hardship for people who have had wood on hand . As a matter of fact members of the comm ittee will remember a discussion that we had a year ago last winter I guess it was when some of the members from this side of the House complained very emphatically, and I believe successf ully in the end, about the restric tion that had been placed on trucks hauling cordwood on certain roads up there .

Those restric tions I believe were lifted or partially lifted, but I am informed that a large quantity of pulp wood, due to the time that those restrictions were on, was left in the bu sh . In fact I've been told that hundreds , if not thousands, of cords were left in the bush. It is now a very great loss to those people because the Pine Falls Mill is not taking that cured pulpwood .

I'm told also - and I don't pretend to be a specialist in these matters, I rely upon information from people in the district - but I am told that because of the increase of beaver in that part of the country that many dams have been erected and that that is resulting in the water-killing of hundreds if not thous ands of cords of good wood, and that that wood will not be able to be marketed to the pulp mill as it could be forme rly because of this new pol icy .

This I sup pose could be raised equally appropriately under the Game Branch because I ask the dual question: Is there anything that can be done to pers uade the mill in question to mal�:e use of this water-killed wood and/or alternativeiy, at the same time is it proposed to reduce the numbers of beaver in the area. I'm told that it is now amou;<ting to a consid erable hazard to the wood crop in some low-lying areas . MR. WI TNEY: Mr .

Chairman I had hoped to visit the Pine Falls Pulp and Paper !vlills prior to the estim ates and I Vlould pos sibly been able to answer this question much better, but I understand that it is quite true that the Pine Falls Pulp and Paper Mill have been deman ding a better quality of timber . I believe they have been dem anding that better quality of timber because due to competition from other mills throughout the North American continent they have had to produce a better quality of products .

I think also that they have put in some new methods in their plant which call for a l:: etter quality wood in order to produce this quality product which is now needed. As far as the beaver damage is concerned if the res idents in the area will re port it to the conser vation officer at Lac du Bonnet he vvill go out and see whether the possi bi lities are there for live trapping of these beaver and alleviating the problem. MR . CAMPBELL: Does it have to be live trapping Mr . Chairman? MR. WITNEY: Not necessa rily. It doesn't have to be live trapping .

I think they quite often do live trapping though and transport them to some other area; but it can be a straight kill if the conse rvation officer feels that that's warranted . MR . CAMPBE LL: This probably belongs in the Game Branch rather than under this particular item but inasmuch as we're on the discussion I gather that the beaver pelt is not worth very much money at the presen t time, but is it fact that even under those circumstances that the beaver is protected as well? MR . WITNEY: No, the beaver is not protected, Mr .

Chairman; they can trap it and get what value they can receive from the fur or the conser vation officer can move in and alleviate the problem for them . MR. HRYHORC ZUK: Mr . Chairman, the Minister mentioned the fact that there 's been a outback in production of pulp, ties and other forest products in the Duck Mountains . There may be good and sufficient reason for that, Mr . Chairman, but I thiiLlc that the human elemen t is being overlooked in this regard.

We must bear in mind that the area lying between the Duck Mountains and Lake Winnipegosis was prim arily settled because of the heavily timbered area in those parts . There is very heavy timber there and the people settled there because there were jobs available in the various saw mills that were set up and from the beginning of the cen tury the settlers there have depended to a large extent on the timber resources as supplementary revenue to their farming .

Now farming in large se ctions of the area is not sufficient to give the families the revenue they need to maintain themselves and give themsel ves a standard of living that they should have, and they have to depend on forest resource s. Now the areas outside of the March 27th, 1961 Page 1353

(Mr . Hryhorczuk, cont'd .) •••.. preser ve or the rese rve , the Duck Mountain Reserve, is now devoid of timber, but for, I would say for a good 25 to 30 years, all ties and pulpwood shipped out of either the area outside the reserve or in the reserve was shipped by the settlers on indivi dual permi ts . It was only rec ently that we bro ught in the timber sales, and it so happens that timber sales have been gradually pushing the individual or settlers permits out of existence; where at one time we had no timber sales now we are getting to the stage where there are very few settlers permits .

There may have been a cutback in production, but I think that instead of displacing the individual permit with a timber sales, what we should try and do is to give the individual settler as much an opportunity to take out pulp and ties as possible . I know there is a question of supervision here and so forth, but when it's a matter of very badly needed income I think the additional supervision that would be needed to look after settlers individual permits should be overlooked at least at a time such as we have right now where the economy is pretty strained .

I would suggest that the Mini ster do his best to evolve some policy whereby the tim ber sales, the number of timber sales would be cut down and the settlers perm its increased accord ingly. MR. WITNEY: Mr . Chairman, I think the honourable member has mentioned one of the reaso ns why we have been cutting down on the permi ts and bringing in the sales . He mentions that the timber resources outside of the forest reserve have gradually been depleted.

The rea son we are putting the timber sales in is beca use the timber sale provides more than any other medium the me ans of conducting trapper fo rest management in these particular areas , because it calls upon, not only the use of just one or tvvo species of timber, but it calls upon the use of all the species of timber that are available there, and it calls for such matters as the lopping of brush L.i order to crea te regenerati on .

The matter of permits and sales has been a very pres sing one with the Department of Mines and Natu.xal Resources , particularly forestry, and I think that we must :recognize this pl'inciple; I t:bii-1k ;ve must :recognize that the reso11rce s, particular ly the renewable resources, must be allowed and manage d so that they can stand on their own fe et, if we wish to have them as renewable reso urces for the futm ·e . I'm advised and I have become convinced, that the method of using the timber sales as agah1st the permit is the method that is needed.

The permit is in a way a form of high grading, because the people take out of the bush only what they need -- maybe the timber for the railway ties that you men tioned or maybe the timber fo r the ja ckpine pulpwood that you mentioned -- the poplm: is left and the other material is left, and it is not utilized. As a result it takes up available space for the other types of trees that are merch a.11 table which could grow and be utilized in the future .

Now most of these timber sales, many of them at any rate, we don't fe el are too small for two or three people to combine their resources to fo rm a small business and to set some capital up and to move into the bush and to utilize it properly and give themselves an opportunity of making more money than they are at the presen t time .

We fe el that once this system of the timber sale has been accepted, once it has proved itself, that many of these people , the people that you are speaking about, providing they do get together and take out sales , and these sales are available to them , that they will be able to make more money and we will get better utiliza tion and managem ent of our forest reserv es . I fe el Mr . Chairman, that it is essential with the number of people who want to go into the bush, and we are having more all the time, that these larger units be utilized instead of the sma ller units .

We do have in administration a great deal of problem with the smaller unit, but that is not the reason why the timber perm its are being replaced gradually with the timber sales . The reason is simply that the timber sale allows us to ma nage that reso urce better than we can under the timber permit and we fe el we must have that opportunity to manage that resource if we are going to have it there for the people in years to come .

We feel also that if these people will utilize their own initiative, band together, small businesses if you wish, put up capital and move into the bush in the more economic opera tion that they too will benefit in the long run. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr . Chairman, I quite agree with the Minister ir>..sofar as manage ment is concerned, but I don •t agree with him on tw·o counts . The suggestion that two or three band together in order to buy a timber sale has been tried out, but it hasn't proved satisfactory .

The main reason is this; that there are certain interests who can outbid the settlers when they band together, when they are buying these sales, and this has happened again and again and again up in my area -- and not only that I understand it is the policy of the governm ent that one Page 1354 March 27th, 196 1.

(Mr . Hryhor czuk, cont'd.) ..•.. person can only hold one sale . Well it is a lmow fact that al though there are sales in the name of several pers ons, actually one timber interest has financed those various operations and had outbid the loca l settler s, and that is something that so far as I lmow no solution has been found for .

I quite agree that for better management a larger unit is preferable, but when you have a situation where the settler, in spite of the fact that he is prepared to go along with his neighbours and take up a block which is manageable, is bid out of the market altogether because he can't stand up against these interests that are just too much for him. MR . WITNEY: .... •.. we have been experimenting with the sealed tender in order to prevent this bidding up in the auction sales and putting the small man out of business . We recog nize that fact a.lld we reco gnize that there are certain proble ms with it.

We do feel as we are experimenting with the sealed tender that we will be able to eliminate some of the probl ems which you have mentioned. But we also feel that we must utilize the bigger unit if we are to preserve the forest for utilization for a long time to come, and we feel that to the e:1>."tent that we think yve had better utilize the bigger type of operation and solve our probl em, the type of problem that you have mentioned, as best we can and as fast as we can in the future , and that is why we have over several areas of this province extended into the sealed tender .

We have done so in the Whiteshell; we have done so in the southeast corner of Manitoba; but I stand to be corrected -- I don't think we have done it as yet in the Duck Mountains . MR. GRAY: Mr . Chairman, I was a little late this evening and I wasn't here when the reforestation was reported by the Honourable Minister. My question is , to what extent are timber been used for different purposes and destroyed by fire against reforestation. In other words is the program of reforesta tion being matched by the amount of timber that is being des troyed by fire or being used by the paper companies or others? MR.

WITNEY: Mr . Chairma.ll I don't think that the Manitoba Pulp and Paper Compa11y deliberately destroy timber by fire; I don't re ally think that was what the honourable member meant. It is difficult to answer the question because we can't tell exactly when a fire year is going to be . We did have a very serious fire year last year, and we had a relatively light fire year the year before, but I would venture to say that from the reforestation plan that we have that we will be able to catch up on whatever loss is being experienced tr.rough means of forest fires .

We are gradually and steadily expanding our forest fire protection system . We have installed four new towers in the Province of Manitoba this year, one in the southeast corner and one up on the Interlake road, the new road up to Gypsumville, and two in the north country, particularly up in the area of Sipiwesk and along the new Simonhouse road . With the expansion of these fire fighting facilities and with the constant experimentation in new equipment and with the plans that we have for reforestation, we feel that we can overcome the damage that is done by the forest fires alone . MR .

HRYHORCZUK: Mr, Chairman before we pass that item , the Minister overlooked my question under (1) as to an explanation of why the left hand column in this year 's estimates doesn't compare with the current estimates, but I have the same question to ask in forestry . Probably there is a better answer in forestry than there was in that number one, but there are others that we can come to . Now if we look at salaries under Forestry, salaries are shown in the left hand column which is for the year ending March 31st, 1961 as $141, 255 .

If you look at the current estimates, that is those ending March 31st, 1961, the amount if $488, 245, a dif ference of $340, 00 0. When you come down to construction and maintenance, the item here is $81,6 90 in the estimates we are now considering,

whereas if you look back in the current es timates the amount is $11 9,3 50. Well the reason I raise this Mr . Chairman, is that if you were only to look at the estimates we are now considering, the figures given there would be misleading, because they do not jibe or compare with the figures were actually established for the current year's estimates -- what I mean, the current year ending March 31st, 19 61. A very good example of that would be back in Administration, other salarie s. In the left hand side you show last year's appropriation as being $51, 635

whereas the appropriation actually was $65, 990 . MR. WITNEY: You mean in last year's estimate book the appropriation is shown as that figure that you gave me? MR. HRYHORC ZUK: I have the estimates for the year ending March 31st, 1961, before March 27th, 19 61 Page 1355

(Mr . Hryhorczuk, cont'd.) .•... me. If you look under Administration , the appropriation under other Salaries was $65, 990 and this appropriation in this book that we are now considering shows it to be $51, 635 . Now that appears right throughout the whole estimates . I'll point them out to the Mini ster as we get to them , and I would like to have an explanation of it so if I'm asked, I' ll be in a position to explain it. MR . WITNEY: Mr . Chairman, the honourable me mber has stumped me for the mome nt because I haven't got the book for last year with me .

If he would allow me, I will obtain that and the explanation can be given to him . MR. IffiYHORC ZUK: ••.•••• under Forestry, (a} (b) (c) (

e) and (f). MR . WITNEY: Forestry, (a) (b) (c) (

e) and (f). MR. IffiYHORCZUK: And under the Game Branch -- while we're on this, Mr . Chair man, I might as well give all the discrepancies and it will save us the trouble of stopping at every one of them . Under the Game Branch (a) (b) (

c) and (d). Under Fisheries Branch (

a) and (b) . Under Surveys Branch (a); and under Lands Branch (a) . That's where all the discre pancies appear between the figures given this year and the actual appropriations that were made during our estimates in 196 0. MR. WITNEY: Yes I'll have that Lniormation. MR. CHAIRMAN : (f) - passed. MR . CAMPBELL: Did you call (f) ? MR. CHAIRMAN : Yes (f ). MR . CAMPBE LL: Under (

f) I was wanting to ask the Mini ster what about the winter ¥:vrks program in this last two or three months compared to the winter works program of last year and the year before? My information is that there have been very few people at work in these recreational areas and that according to the program that was laid down a few years ago, that there still is lots of work to be done. Would the l\ll..inister tell us if this is a fact that there are a small numbe r of people working cutting lines , brushing, c!earing roads, etcetera, com pared to last year and the year before .

And why, if it's a fact, that there still is a lot of work to be done on that program; and what is to be done along that line in the Whiteshell area? MR . WITNEY: Mr . Chairm an, part of the reason that we haven 't got as many casual employees working on winter works at the present time is because of our completion, as men tioned, or bringing to near completion , most of the Trans-Cana da camp and picnic ground agreements this year . As I men tioned in the opening remarks we have got early all of them, at least 95 percent, and at a minimum of 85 percent .

So the capital construction has been done on these projects and conse quently with that there's less need for part-time employe es . Now we do have this year the camp and picnic site winter work agreement operating and we have the forest access-road agreement operating. With respect to the camp and picnic site winter works agreement, we have an agreement with Canada where they pay approximately 50 percent of the total cost . For the current fiscal year we are working on a program the total cost of which is $10 0, 000 .

With respect to the second one , the forest access -road agreement: It's a twelve month agreement, operatLllg from December 1st, 1960 through to November 30th, 196 1, and we have operating under this one a total of $134, 000 before the end of this fiscal year . Now in the program that we have for the balance of the fiscal year we have work being done at William Lake; we have our Trans-C anada Highway sites being cleaned up; and we have mis cellaneous works in our northern sites , southern sites and western sites, and in misc ellaneous wayside developmen ts .

In the forest access roads for winter works up to the end of this fiscal year we have the Whitemouth Lake Road east being worked upon; the Dauphin Cabin south road; the Sandilands west fireguard road; the west fireguard road in the _White shell; and the Jackhead Road and Jackhead Harbour Road also. In the Public Works would be accounts that's adminis tered -- capital account which is administered under this department and Public Works, we have the road location to Cedar Lake; the road location to Moose Lake; and the Woodridge Road West to P. T .H. No . 12 and the Caribou Lake Road.

So altogether up until the end of this fiscal year in winter works programs we have $100, 000 -- at least the camp and picnic site winter work agreement ends on April 30th, 1961 -- for $1 00, 000, and the forest access -road agreement is a total of $134, 000 before the end of this fiscal year . JlrlR . CAMPBELL: Mr . Chairman, the Minis ter has told us of the amounts of money involved in these various projects . Can he translate that into terms of men employed, people Page 1356 March 27th, 1961. -

(Mr . Campbell, cont'd.) ••••• employed? And could he probably, not now b

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-3-32a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 3rd hansardpdf 32a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	779d5e82c758879ab7b677d663ad209dce291d0d

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