VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, APRIL 25, 1980 NO. 29

April 25,1980 Tape No. 1035 AH-1 The House ~et at 10.00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER tSimms): Order, please! I am sure han. members will join wi~h me in welcoming to the galleries this morning nine students ;rom Makkovik All Grade School in Labrador and nine students from the Foxtrap Junior High School in Conception Bay South. We hope that they will enjoy their visit here. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS ~!r. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that all hon. members on both sides of the House and indeed all Newfoundlanders are very concerned about reports in connection with faulty equipment, a breakdown in equipment surrounding Ben Nevis and Hibernia wells. At Hibern .ia 0-35, a step-out well being drilled near the most promising hole, blowout preventers are acting up a spokesman said. Can the hon. gentleman tell the House, the hon. President of the Council who obviously right now is the "only one who can answer the question, how serious is this problem? How often does it occur? What is involved?

I mean, is there danger to the environment as the result of the breakdown, of this equiprr.ent acting up because this is the thin<J that com:rols blowouts from these wells? Does the han. gentleman have any first- hand information he can give the House? How serious is the matter? They had to shutdown, I am told, equipment on the two oil drilling rigs, Ben Nevis and Hibernia. And is there indeed a threat or any danger to the environment and to the fishery? Because the Premier hinted at it the other day when he came back from New York. What is precisely the situation? MR. SPEAKER: The han.

President of the Council. 2732

.'l:;:>ril 23 ,19SO Tape No. 1035 AH-2 :-8.. )L~lL~..LL : :~ !". Speaker, the=e have been shutdowns anc! there has ~een malfunctioni"o;; of equiPlllent and t:lu.s obviously wauld occur .

But: to our knowledge , ~nd, of course, tnis matte= is be.ing monitored, and the :it: uation wi"t:.h re.spect: t:o the act:ivities of the oil companies is ::e ing rr,oni't:ored ve.ry carefully, to our knowledge tilere is no - as a result of the orea.t..;.down in this equipment, there is no e.v.tra danger of t!.ny bl-:>wout or any environmental hazards a:;; a =esu::.c of it~ over and above ·. of course !t would be silly co say that chere were not because I am sure as the hon . me.'Tlher knows and all hon. members kno•• that t:here is a certain amount of con cern wherever dri.lling of this na·ture occurs. aut in reply to ~is specific question as a result cf this malfunctioning, really of equipment and that, there is to our knowledge, .a11d when r say to our knowledge t 'his matter is being monito ·red by cs, there is to our knowledge no immediate cause cf undue alarm. !>!R.

NEAR'!: MR . SPEAKER ( Simms): Lal'oile. MR . t-IEA.!~Y: A supplementary . A supplementa_~. The non. member for Mr.Speaker, this leacl.s to my second question about monitoring the offshore rigs. Is that the responsibility of t:he provincial gove.rnmen~ . the federal government or is t:he responsib ilit:y fer environnenta.l ;na_cters jointly shared by the Province ar.d che Governme .t'lt of Canada as indicated in the formula that was worked out between -t"e Pro~rince and t:he ~.l. nis<:er of ~tines and .Energy , Mr . Gi:U.espie i n Ott:awa? Who i s 2733

April 25, 1980 Tape 1036 EC - l MR. s. NEARY: responsible for it and do they keep a continuous check on it? Because_this matter is very serious, Sir. I do not know if hon. gentlemen are aware or not, but they call them BOPs ~blowout preventers. They are huge valves the size of this • House of Assembly, underneath the water, and in case anything goes wrong they are reading gauges on the rigs all the time_ and they are supposed to be able to IJSe what they call shut-off valves. Now 1 who keeps a check on that?

I mean, is there somebody on board the rigs all the time or do they just go out occasionally? ~ose responsibility is it for monitoring the offshore rigs? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W • MABSHALL: Matters of environment in that area, Mr. Speaker, are primarily the responsibility of the federal government and I am sure, as the hon. member knows, the federal government is keeping a very close watch, and as a matter of fact, I believe now is conducting a study to assure that its knowledge in that with respect to offshore drilling is up-to-date.

Further to that, of course, even though the provincial government has no direct responsibility in the legal sense, obviously, it has a great deal of concern with the matter and it keeps an eye on it and receives a report on this matter as well as other ~~~atters from time to time with resPect to the offshore. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementart. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for LaFoile. MR.

S • liEARY : On this particular aspect of it, Sir, would the hon. the minister undertake to get us a complete and full report from the environmental people who are watching the blowout preventers? Because the reports raaching us are that they are acting up, there is soll'e problem with them, and as hon. members know, if they cannot be .shut off then she is going to blow. And, you know, they had to shut down the rigs.

Obviously, it must be a pretty serious matter when they had to shut down the rigs because there were cracks in them - in the reamers and so forth, and in the valve itself 1 which is, as I say, as large as the HoiJSe of Assembly. But I would like to get something factual from the federal 27.34 o.~r-

April 25, 1980 Tape 1036 EC- 2 MR. s. NEARY: environmenta.l people, and I am sw:;e the hon. gentleman wculd feel more assured tcxl, hiJDSelf, if we can get fa.ct~l infon~ation to brinCJ into .this House so tha.t the people of this Province will be reassured that they can shut off the blowout preventers and that then is'' no possibility that she is going to blow out there ·now -any da.y at all. MR. SPEAKER. (Simms) : MR. If. MABSaALL: The hon. the President of the Council. Well, Mr. Speaker, u the hem.

JMIIIber is acc:ustollllid to do, from 1;ime to time when he uks questions, he <llso llljl]tes ce;ttain statelllel'lts that J: would feel should not be blum as the gospel. But certainly, we are all concerned · ~out this and certainly, we Will take that llllltter under advisement, because not only the hon. member but every person in Newfc~dland . is obviously very concerned, to assUre that the optimum safety procedures are being · implemented and tllat everything- is done. MR. S • NEARY : R.iqht an. 2735

.-·(--- .>.pril 25, 1980 Y.R. SPE!<.KER: (SirolllS) Belle Isle. M."<. E. ROBERTS : Tape No. 1037 SD - 1 T.~e hon. mewber for the Strait of Mr. Speaker, there are a number of other aspects of the oil exploration situation that we want to go into. Again, I am going to ask ~~e President of the Council (Mr. ~. ~~rshall) who seems to be in the barrel these days with the Premier and the :1inister of ~!ines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) both of whom, as I understand, are out of the Province and presumably, given the weather, not likely to be back today anyway. Hopefully they will be in t.'le House Monday.

I, first of all, wonder if the President of the Council could tell us whether the timing forecasts - they are in this mornings paper, and he has probably heard t.'le reports a:3 '"ell, quoting a Mr. Basten •-11ho is apparently employed with ~~bil Oil of Canada - of 1986 at the earliest for production from Hibernia assuming, as we all do and as we all hope, that the Hibernia find proves to be of a sufficient size and scope? Is that a realistic forecast?

What are the government - the government tell us they are monitoring it and I have no doubt they are, and could the minister tell us whether that is a reasonable sort of timing? I am not concerned to the precise day or the precise ronnth but give or take a year, are we looking at something •-11ithin five or six years? ~·!R. SPEAKER: The hon. t.~e President of t.'le Council. ~.ffi. ~--. }'.ARSHALL: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is difficult for anyone, including the gentleman who was quoted by the hen. Opposition House Leader (Mr. E.

Roberts), I would suggest, to give any kind of a specific date, particularly at this particular stage. We have heard, as I think has already been indicated, and I think we have got to couch our answers at all times, to say that if there is a cornmerical find, we all certainly hope there will be, but the fact of the matter is t.~e earliest figures that we had heard before would be possibly 1985, then this gentleman says 1986, 2736

.... "7 April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1037 SD- 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: and then there are all sorts of • permutations and combinations involved that I think would be impossible and indeed irresp~nsible for us to give any kind of definitive date because there are many aspects of it. The nature and the way in which the production, if it does occur, will be performed in one thing and, of course, of paraJrount importance is the issue of the environment itself and what environmental safeguards will have to be adhered to.

And, you know, as I say, at this particular stage I think it is much too early for any person, with respect the person who was quoted from Mobil Oil, to come up with any kind of a definitive statement with respect to the time. MR. E. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for the Strait of Belle Isle. :.IR. E. OOBERTS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member Thank you, Sir.

I understand what the minister is saying essentially that really nobody knows at this stage because there are a number of factors which are not determinable at this point and that 1985-86 is certainly on the optmistic side of early and on the early side of realistic, given what we now know. Let me switch to another aspect of the offshore thing if I might, Your Honour. Again I believe it was Mr. Millan who is the head of the - what is it called? - the Offshore Petroleum Directorate - super Agency. Mr. Millan - r-<.R. 5 • NEARY: The Director. MR. E.

OOBERTS: - the Director of that particular branch of the Public Service was 2737

April 25, 1980 Tape NO. 1038 EL - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: quoted as saying that about seven cents of every dollar being spent on exploration currently stays in the Province. ~ven that there are S220,000,000 to be spent this year by the oil companies off Newfoundland and Labradcr~ is that the figure the government has? Are we getting seven cents out of every doilar? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position now, you know, to verify that figure.

The only thing I can say to the hon. member is that as far as the government is concerned it has a concern that we get the optimum from each dollar that is spent and it is also a concern that our people in the business community in this Province take advantage of the opportunities that are available to them.

It has been stated from time to time, and, I think, with a certain amount of just­ ification, that because of the nature of our commercial activity, historically in this province over a period of years, that much of the business community has concerned itself with matters pertaining to agencies, rstail trade and what have you. In other wcrds, many of the business community in this Province have been to one degree and another really just manufacturers aQents. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. W. MARSHALL: Yes, manufactureres agents. And it is a matter of real, real concern to us.

I mean government cannot do everything, and we would like to see the business community in this province, you know, showing a little bit more initiative in many respects, and prepared to perhaps take a little bit more entrepreneurial risks than pe1:h.aps they have in the past. l'.nd we are quite sure that this will come in time. In answer to the hon. gentleman's question, I mean, I cannot say that, you know, that is the exact amount of the return derived from exploration in the Province but certainly ~~e government is working as hard as it possibly can to see that that is 273B

April 25 . 1980 Tape No. 1038 EL - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: 'llla.iti.mized and whatever the re .turn is, that it is increased. MR. E. ROBERl'S : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplemelltary, the hen. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERl'S ·: Your Honour, we, on this side, would agree with the goal. I cannot pursue it now, obviously, and so I will not we are not so sure that the government are taking the maxi= steps but we will come back to that.

Let me again, on another aspect of this oil thing, ask the minister i£ the govez:nment are prepared to table the exchange of letters between the hon. the Premier, who was then the Minister of Mines and Energy and the hen. Allistair Gillespie, who was then the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources in Otta,.·a, between the two levels of government with respect to the development of exploration and the issuing of joint permits? Could they be laid on the table of the House? Will the government consent to that? 2739

April 25. 1980 Tape No. 1039 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. President of theCouncil. Mr. Speaker, not having seen the detail MR. W, MAR.C"HALL: of the letters, I cannot at this time give an undertaking because there may possibly be ~omething in the exchange of letters which were as happens from time to time, corresponde~ce flowing from one minister. to ~other, from one Cabinet to another. MR. ROBERTS: My friend has them. MR. MARSHALL: I know the han. gentleman probably has them, undoubtedly he has, he usually has copies of most letters. as But I will certainly take the matter under advisement.

As far as I can see, I can see no reason why it should not be made public unless it is a matter of confidentiality, to protect confidentiality . for some reason or othe~ between the ministers. certainly take the matter under advisement. But I will MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: 1~R. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I have in front of me the Gillespie correspondence, the exchange of letters between the hon. gentleman's administration and Mr. Gillespie of the Government of Canada.

You cannot table them, I suppose, unless you quote from them but just to show you the air of co-operation that existed-and the rigs would not be out there, I think, hon. gentlemen are aware, but for this formula that was worked out. Is the hon. gentleman aware,for instance, that Mr. Gillespie in his last paragraph of a letter that was written to the Premier back in 1978,. says, 'I have desi .. nated Don Crosbie, Glenn Yungblut and Michael Bell of my department to be the Federal representatives of this proposed committee'. Is the hon. gentle- man aware of that? If he is not aware of it, Mr.

Speaker, I just quoted from the documents 1 I would be glad to table them because I believe the press, the media of this Province should get a hold of this correspondence and put chings in 2740

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1039 DW - 2 HR. S. NEARY: their right pe:spective for a change. So I am going to lay it on the table of the House. But is the hon. gentleman aware of , the things involved in this correspondence in showing the air of co-operation between the Province .and Ottawa as far back as 1978? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, one of the problems in'getting up on a point of order during Question Period, from the government point of view, is that it might be construed that the government does not want a question levied against it. The hon. gentleman has made a speech, not a magnificient one,but a speech of his

interpretation and he gave an

interpretation so I will just merely answer it by giving an

interpretation of his question. It shows, as far I am concerned, the panic and the frantic nature of the hon. gentlemen on the other side to get them off the sticky wicket that they are on with respect to offshore ownership and they will try anything they possibly can including the Question Period. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewis- porte. ~R. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, my question is for t~e Minister of Labour and Manpower ('lr. Dinn) and it again relates to the offshore situation.

Could the minister tell the House exactly how many people are employed on the offshore , both onshore and offshore , and what the ratio is in terms of Newfoundland workers employed at the moment? ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Labour and Manpower. 2 7 41

~pril 25, 1S80 Tape No. 1039 ow - 3 M!L J . DI~N: Hr. Speaker, with respect fo the offshore I have not got the latest !igures and I am due to hav e an update of th~ ·figures this week. But I believe the last ~ figures that I had on the offshore were something over 400 people employed on the offshore , on the drill rigs that are out there now and on the supply vessel s. ....;..- 2742

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1040 NM - 1 MR. DINN: 'l'..b.e last time I sa• ,r the statistics on the qf~shore I had the ratios broken down in the different areas. With_resepct to the supply vessels in the offshore, the ratio is about-: believe, ~inety per cent on supply vessels are Newfoundlanders. On the rigs,I do not want to give the ~ouse incorrect information, but it is somewhere of the order of - it is over fifty per cent. And I do not know what the figure is right now. But I can get that for 'the hen. member.

Onshore we do not have as detailed a breakdown as we would like to have because it is simply impossible to get. There are companies starting almost on a daily basis. So I would not have that figure anyway. The Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. Barry) may have it when he gets back Monday but certainly that is not part of the statistics that we collect because we are mainly con­ cerned with employees in the offshore, although we do have statistics on employees on land with respect to the companies hiring for offshore. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Lewis porte. MR. WHITE: A supp~eme~tary.

A supplementary, the hen. member for Mr. Speaker, in view of the importance of this matter one would think that the minister would have such figures available at his fingertips immediately. I would like to ask the minister, what influence the government uses, if any, to get jobs for people on the offshore? The government has an employment agency within the minister's department and I am wondering if it is just a window dressing kind of thing or if it actually has any power with any of the oil companies in placing Newfoundlanders in jobs? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Mr.

Speaker, it is not this government's policy, either within government or outside of government in private enterprise, to force anybody to hire anybody. In the government service as an example,we have the Public Service Commission, which is an independent 2743

April 23, 1980 Tape No. 1040 N.'-1 - 2 :-.R. OINN: body that qoes hiring for government. Ana it is not my function to cUl the Public Service Commission and say, "You will hire this person or that: person or the other person." With respect. to t:h~ offshore, a procedure that is available is th~ foJ.lowing: gumber one, we get an application for a person to be reg~stered for the offshore: that person's application is checked out, it is then put in a registry and all of the offshore companies are sent a copy of that regist-~. When they are hiring they will hold interviews ana check the regist-ry.

If the person is not registered and i.s a Newfoundlander he is still not discriminated against, he is told to go to the Department of Labour and register. If he is registered then the company, if he has the quali.=ications, hires. But do not call the company and say, "John Jones is a friend of mine, you will hue h1.m . ·• Then after the company does the hi..,..;_ng, actually does tile hiring, 2744

April 25,1980 Tape No. 1041 AH-1 ~-"-~· DINN: a list of all the people that are hired is then sent to my department with the information that the company has received on them. That list is then checked with the registry and if the people are on the register then everything is okay. If they are not part of the register, then the company is called in and asked to explain why they hired John Jones from Connecticut. i;f they do not have a logical and reasonable explanation, if it is a job that a Newfoundlander can and should do.then the company will hire the Newfoundlander. That is the procedure. MR.

WHITE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary. The hon. member for Lewisporte followed by the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell the House whether or not it is to the advantage of any Newfoundlander looking for a job to go to the minister's department beforehand to be registered in obtaining a job with the offshore or is it better for them to go directly to the companies from whom they are looking for a job, Crosbies or Harvey's or any other company? l~t do we recommend to them?

A lot of us over here haq.e been recommending that they go through the minister's department. Is that a waste of time as the minister indicates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, it certainly is not a waste of time. The fact of the matter is, if they §ore not on the register there is a good chance that the company for speed, just for expediency for them and they have - MR. NEARY: list? MR.

DINN: to hire the persons - if they are hiring Friday afternoon What do you do if your name is not on the If they are hiring Friday afternoon, as an example,and a person goes into that office to be hired and he is not on the register it is quite possible that the company for the sake of expediency, if there is another individual that is qualified and is a Newfoundlander and 2745

.>.?ril 25.1 990 Tape :.~o. 1041 A.H-2 ~!R. DL."m: is on :he ~e qis~<r .it is quite possible chat the company may hire that person . because he is on the register , without . going through the riqmarole , ":'he face of t:he matter is that we do noc ,by regis-cering, pu sh one individual over anoth er individulll but: chey a~e ~egistered by a:eans of job de scr iptio n. For example , a roughneck or a roustabout . if they have esp er ience on c!:le rigs in that capacity, or dril ler or cnessmen and so on.

So they ar e reg ister ed in thac capacity and . .,hen a cotnpany do es not have enough applicat:loos of :;>eople with qualifications , they will often refer to ~~e regiscer and call up indivi duals that have applied for jobs or have registered for jobs on ~~e offshore. So it is quice an advantage !:0 regiscer and I would rec omme nd the ho n. re..~s opposite to have anyone who requests that they be registered for ~~e offshor e-- 1f they cannot get into st. John's ,for example,at a parcicular time to register , we will send out the registrati on fo rms. ~!?.. S?::A.'<E."t (Simms ) : MR .

WARREN : The hon .c:e:nber for ~orngae :-!ouneains . !1:: . Speaker, my question is also to the :1inister of Labour and Manpower (::tt. DL"'In) . L"'l view of che answe .rs chat he ju .st gave to the hon . !'\ember !or Lewisporte (Mr . \''hite) , I understand t!:ac Petro -Canada has announced their plans for offshore exploracion off the Labrador coast. As chose plans have been announced, is ::.'le miniS"Cer aware of labour opportuni t i~s that will exist ':he re and '"'ill Labradorians be given tlle preference ro ""'Orlc on those oil rigs 'tihen Pecro-<:anada 274 R

April 25, 1980 MR. G. WARREN r the Labrador Coast? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Tape 1042 EC - l begin their offshore exploration ~long The hon. the Minister of Labour and Mr. Speaker, I do not differentiate between a LabrAdorian Newfoundlander or a Corner Brook ~ewfoundlander or ~ St. John's Newfoundlander or ~ Labrador City Newfoundlander or a Makkovik Newfoundlander or a Conception B&y Newfoundlander - they ArB all Newfoundlanders to me Uld they all have the same opportunity to get jabs in the offshore. SOME HON. MEMBERS : KR. G. WARREN : MR. SPEJUCER: Torngat Mountains. MR. G.

Wli.RREN: Hear, hearl Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I probably understand the minister's answer, but is the minister saying that if the oil rig is working off HopedAle, Labrador, that residents in Hopedale who quAlify for A position will not be given a position because his name is not on the minister's list? MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. G. WARREN : Is that the reason - because his name is not on the minister's list? MR. S. NEARY: Right on. MR.

WARREN: He is up in Hopedale, there is no communication, he does not even know anything about it, is the minister saying, 'You do not know about it,your name is not on the list so you will not get the jab. ' Is that the ~wer? MR. SPElUCER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that that kind of a situation does not exist, and if the hon. member knows a situation like that exists, he should make sure that his constituents are aware. I think it is possibly one of the responsibilities the hon. member may have. MR. STAGG: That is right. 2747

ur- April 25, 1980 Tape 1042 EC - 2 MR. J. DINN: Now, we did a lot of advertising i~ the Province of Newfoundland, both ::m T.V. and radio, in the papers and so on, and we would. hope that we got to most of the people in Newfoundland.

But the fact of the matter is, if the hon. member knows of a person in Hopedale or anywhere else who wants to be registered for the· offshore, it is a simple -tter of him getting registration forms from me , and as a matter of fact, I will make registration forms available for as many people as are in the hon. member's district and make sure he can get them to everyone ,so that they can register for the offshore. There is no problem there, Mr. Speaker. Of course, the non. llllllllber has four or five mailouts a year and I will not take one of his mailouts away from him.

If he wants me to do it for him I will gladly do it because I am so interested in making sure that we get people, especially in the locations. I would think that the companies l:l.iring for the offshore may set up offices for _hiring in, say, Goose Bay or someplace up in Labrador so that everyone has the advantage of being hired for the offshore. MR. G. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. the member Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary.

I thank the minister for passing along the registration forms and whatever he is going to pass along to me. I would like to advise the hon. the minister that along the Labradnr Coast we have no television, we have no radio, we have no ~ewspaper- those are three things.we do not have, and very little do we hear from any hon. minister too. Therefore, I suggest to the bon. the llinister of Labour and Manpower that he make sure that his advertising goes out to all those COIIIIIlunities.

I will make sure that my constituents know it, but there are other places throughout Newfoundland and Labrador that are not aware of the opportunities that exist on offshor ·e oil. My last question is, • 2748

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1043 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: could the minister advise if Petro- Canada will be setting up an onshore base anywhere in Labrador? MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. DINN: Hear, hear! The han. Minister of Labour ~d Manpower. Mr. Speaker, with respect to - I am delighted the han. member is going to make sure that his constituents are made aware of the registry, and assist them in any way that he can to register and hopefully help them and assist them in getting jobs when Petro-Canada goes to Labrador and drills off the Labrador Coast.

The fact of the matter is that we are currently having negotiations with Petro-Canada because we have a breakdown now, or somewhat of a breakdown, we have not got the total detail, we have a breakdown now of some of the drill rigs that will be coming into the Province this year. We are not totally happy with the ·number of Newfoundlanders that Petro-Canada wants to employ offshore. We think we have people who are qualified to do some of the jobs that they are not permitting.

They are saying to us, at this point in time 1they will not permit Newfoundlanders, for whatever reason, so that those negotiations will go on until we are happy. Because ,indeed , we hold on this side of the House that we should control employment offshore as one of the things under.the regulations, and 1 of course,! intend to do that job and do it as best I can. MR. SPEAKER: answer. MR. THOMS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. THOMS: We have time for one final question and The han. member for Grand Bank. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. - Monday. (Inaudible) .

My question as well is to the Minister of Labour and Manpower and I was wondering if he could indicate to the House- as I understand it one should register. If one wants a job offshore one goes in and one gives his name and address, telephone number, etc., and presumably he indicates whether he is a Canadian or a Pakistani, or a Newfoundlander, whatever, when he - 2749

April 25, 1980 MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: Tape No. 1043 NM - 2 A Philippine. - a Philippine or whatever, and he - Not a Jap. Do not call them Japs. No, we cannot call him a Jap. But what I would like to know is what criteria is used by your department to determine who and who is not a Newfoundlander? What criteria is used? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Mr. Speaker, number one, I do not want to give or read for the hon. member the regulations or the guidelines - they have been available for four or five years now and the han. member should know them.

The fact of the matter is tha~ you know, it should not be considered as a matter of urgent public importance here in Oral Question Period here in the House. The fact of the matter is that there are registration forms and it is just a matter of the person putting down his name, address, his social insurance number - MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: know - SOME HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: His place of birth. Your religion, your politics - No religion on there, no politics, but you Oh, oh! Order, please!

I do not think we have - if the hon. members opposite continue with the position they have on the offshore we will have no need of having people register as to what political persuasion they are because - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR .. DINN: be a member left over there. M..~. SPEAKER: has expired. Oh, oh! Order, please! - the fact of the matter is there will not Order, please! The time for Oral Questions 2750

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1044 EL-l MR. E. ROBO:RTS: MR. SPEAKER~ (Simms) : Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker. The hen. member for the "strait of Mr. Speaker, before we - Oh, oh! Order, please! O~der, please! I have difficulty hearing the hen. member who wishes to speak. Order please! The hen. the Member for the Strait of Belle Isle. l'IR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, now that the Minister of Fisheries has responded to Your Honour and is trying to behave, I would like to raise a matter. The members of the House, I think, are aware tha~ in an accident in St.

John's, I believe two days ago, a young lady was killed, the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Joe H~rvey. Joe Harvey, of course, served in this House briefly. But, h~ was twice elected, in fact, to this House and might I suggest that perhaps the usual motion - I did not have a chance to speak to my opposite member,the gentleman from St. John's East (W. Marshall, but the usual motion might go extending the sympathy of us all to the family on the death of this young lady. MR. W. MARSHALL Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I had noted the death in the paper and was not really aware who the parents - Joe Harvey, was described - were, in fact. Certainly we would want to be associated with it.to extend our deepest sympathyon a very traaic h~n~~~ing and event in the passing of their daughter who, I believe, was only twenty years old. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : You have heard the motion. Those in favour, aye, contrary, nay, carriede 2751

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1044 EL - 2 NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the President of council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of ·the Minister of Justice, (G. Ottenheimerl, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Anmend The Change Of Name Act." MR. NEARY: Are you changing your name or what? .MR. SPEAKER (Sirmnsl : I am sorry, the hon. the Minister of Education. MS. L. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Armnend The Education (Teachers' Pension) Act." MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MS. H. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a· Bill entiltled - "An Act To Ammend The Judgement Recovery Newfoundland Act." MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! I am still having difficulty in hearing so~ of the ministers present their notices. I notice that some members are having conversations. Maybe it might be more appropriate to have them out in the corridor somewhere, but I have difficulty hearing what the hon. members are saying.

The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ~sk leave to introduce a Bill entitled, Highway Traffic Act." 2752 "An Act To .&..11111end The

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1045 DW - l ORDERS nF THE DAY On motion,that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply on Head III, Executive Council, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please! I would like to inform all hon. members that we have six hours and twenty-seven minutes remain- inc;. We are on Head III, Executive Council. Shall 302-IJl carry? The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: I predict, Mr. Speaker, that Head III will carry approximately six hours and twenty-six minutes from now.

As I understand it,Head III is the last of the Heads to be referred and that will leave the nine hours for the concurrence debates. Hopefully, by the way, we wi!l be able to change the format of those debates and make them a little better than they were last year. And at the end of the six hours and twenty-seven minutes, or whatever that period is 1 we will carry the Estimates. Your Honour, is require~ by Standing Orders, if memory serves me correct!~ to put them all without further question 1 in the delicate words of the draftsman.

And I may add 1 after the kind of performance we saw yesterday from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) at about a quarter - well, not a quarter to six, I am sorry, yesterday was Thursday so the House at 5:30 went into the Late Show. Having heard the Minister of Finance speak at 5:15 we ought to have gone into the Late Show at 5:10 and used our time a little more profitably. I was disappointed. You know, I like the Minister of Finance. Some of my best friends are Ministers of Finance. They need friends, they have few enough.

And the way that •this Province's fiscal and monetary- well 1 we do ,-,ot have a monetary policy we barely have a fiscal pol i c·· and the way that the minister is running it he is going ?71:\~ .... ""''-'

'110' ' April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1045 DW - 2 :.!R. E. ROBERTS : to need, I can assure him, all the friends he can get. But that i:s another st ory. If eve r we get the Budget-debate we will talk about what we regard as some of th~ sins of omission and some of the sins of commission of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in his capacify as the government's chief financial man. But yesterday he went beyond that and he launched forth into uncharted waters and he came to grief. I understand from my friends in the medical trade that the han. minister as a doctor had and, I have no doubt , has a good reputation.

He is regarded as being a first-class pediatrician and that doubtless fits him to be a part of the present Cabinet. He is right at home with that. But reall y when it comes to this - Your Honour , d~es not know what a pediatrician is& Your Honour is looking quizzical, Your Honour is doing me the grave courtesy , which I much appreciate , of listening to what I say.I appreciate that, and I want to b~ sure Your Honour understands as well as listens. AN HON. MEMBER: (I naud ible ). MR . E. ROBERTS: I am getting warning signals from my colleagues to the stern here, Sir, I do not know what that means.

I am not, in my view 1 being the least bit disrespect- ful of the Chair and if I am I hasten to sa y I ha ve n o intention or thought of that. In fact,I think that the committee has never been more ably Chaired than it has been in this House of Assembly. And heavens knows, as Your Honour, will be told by some colleague~ that I have had differences of opinion from time to time with han. members who have sat in the Cha ir of committee. Anywa~ the point I was making is that tho;, 'li.nister of Finance - I am sorry? ~1R. HOLLETT: I was telling 'John' to take a bow. 2754

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1045 ow - l ~R. E. ROBERTS: t<lell, I do no~ mine him takin g a bow as long as he does not wave his arms, t~e waving the arms is - you know the time is no~ up yet, Your aonour. I mean 1 the nice thing about committee is that I only have to sit down for a little bit and I can come back a~ain. But I do not want to have sport with the Minister of finance (Dr. Collins) because really tha~ is unfair . MR. T. t.OSR: pediatrician is. ~R • . E. ROBERTS: You did not define what a ~y friend for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) does not know what a pediatrician is. A pediatrician - MR. T. it4 MR. E.

MR. m 4 • LOS?.: ROBERTS: LUSB: No, I said you did not define I did not find it or define it? You did not define it. MR. E. ROBERTS: These teacaers, Mr. Chairman, you think they really would be more precise. Well, ! will take him outside and tell him afterwards what a pediatrician is, behind the curtain. But anyway I do not want to go on 2755

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1046 SD - 1 HR. E. ROBERTS : about the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) because really that is quite irrevelant to the point. Now, yesterday there were some quite splendid speeches made on this side. I regret that gentlemen opposite were not able to respond in kind but I suppose that is - the way it goes. But I think that a very significant point i .s beginning to emerge and it is beginning to emerge quite clearly.

It has taken a while for it to come out and hen. members opposite probably do not realize it has oome out, and if they realize it is coming out they are reluctant to accept it because, of course, they have been posturing. Those of them who understand it-I suppose there might be one or two or three who understand the nefarious strategy that the government have adopted in lieu of being able to come to grips wit.'l the problems of the Province, two or three understand, the rest have just been posturing like a bunch of little tin pouter pigeons striding about in the square with their chests puffed out posturing.

They have no more idea what they are about, Sir, the, the han. Minister of Finance's patients did. The children who were six months old and a year old would have had as much knowledge now of what is going on, Han. gentlemen and I include in that han. ladies opposite,although I am not sure either if the two lady ministers have graced the debate with their views, but han. gentlemen opposite no more understand, most of them, what this whole debate this whole question of offshore is about.

They are posturing, they are grabbing frantically on to what they believe and hope will be their salvation, the glory road that will enable them to be re-elected and so forth. But two things are coming through quite clearly, First of all, this government has no specific position on offshore. They do have the posture, they do have the empty rhetoric which they put up as an answer to everything. I was surprised the other day~ My friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr. G.

Warren) raised a problem affecting the conditions of jails in the Province and he asked it of the Premier and the Premier made answer and for once ~he Premier did not say, well, we would have good jails if only we 2756

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1046 so - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: owned offshore oil. But that has . become their refuge. They are unable to cope with the problems of the Province, we are seeing that, we have seen it in the budget, we are seeing l t e•Jery- single day. MR. G. WARREN: t1k . E. ROBERTS: P.ight on. And you know, the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. C.

Brett) taking refuge and he has only begun to get the heat that is going to come on him this year because his colleagues have given him no money, no money at all, to enable him to meet the needs 1 or the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor) who is hidden behind the skirts of a property tax and that is beginning to come home to roost . MR. G. WARREN: What a government. MR. E. ROBERTS : But all that bon. gentlemen opposite have is 'we own it and then they get on to this cheap second-clas s - you know, Dr.

Johnson, a very wise old Englishman said that "Patriotism is a last refuge of the scoundrel." And we are seeing on the other side a group of gentlemen- I am not saying that they are scoundrels, if the cap fits they may wear it but I am not saying it fits- but we are seeing a group of men and women, a group of members of this House who are taking refuge in patriotism as if somehow that were an answer. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is the first thing. This governrrent have a posture but a posture is not a policy. A posture is not an answer, a postur e is not a firrn means of coming to grips with some of our problems.

Do you know the most important thing this administration is going to accomplish in this second session of this General Assembly, Do you know what it is~ 1\s incredible as it sounds it is something that is going to be done by the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. E. ROBERTS : for itself . The flag. - whose record of a<:hivements speaks 2757

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1046 SD - 3 MR. $ .\RREN: Right on. MR, E. ROBERTS: His record of achievements speaks for itself, Sir, 'and in kindness I will not mention it - in kindness to him. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. E. ROBERTS : But he will accomplish the most important achievement of the Peck ford administration in its first year in office and that is to give this Province a flag. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. E. ROBERTS : You have only two minutes left. Only two minutes left? I was just gettingrwound up but I will be back. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. E. ROBERTS: But, Mr.

Chairman, that is all they have accomplished. So one thing I want to say, in phase one, is that all we are seeing is a posture instead of a policy. We are seeing the bitterness.the frustrated bitterness of the gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) spewing out in the House, we are seeing the bile the political bile of rrr:1 frier..d from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) spewing out. MR. F. STAGG: I felt you would get around to me. MR. E. ROBERTS: Get around to whom? MR. F. STAGG: I felt you would get around to me. MR. E.

ROBERTS: I am bound to get around to the gentleman from Stephenville, Sir, when one is walking down the road and ones sees a certain substance then one has to get around it, one has to get around it, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. E. ROBERTS : friend. You know - MR. F. STAGG: Oh, oh! Of course I get around to my The hon. gentleman is (inaudible) 2759

April 25, 1980 Tape 1047 EC - l SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Cllairman, I am quite willing to engage in banter wi _th my friend, even when he loses his teaper, as he is on the ~rqe of cl.oing now. I say to him, go back to reading about Anne M=ay, it will cl.o hilll mora good and it will do the House 1110re good. Now 1 Mr. Chairman, I will come back a little later, Sir, in this debate tnis 1110rning. I want to talk about the fact this administration have radically chanqed their policy and they no lonqer are tal.kinq ownership, that is not the issue. MR. G. WARREN: Right on. MR. E.

ROBERTS' They are no longer talkinq ownership. OWnership has never been an issue across this House. The government have finally realized, or finally admitted that they h&ve realized, whichever is the more correct description, tn&t ownership is not the issue on this whole offshore question, it is control. That is the issue. ~at is the heart of it, that is the guts of it - if tn&t is a parliamentary word, and I think it is - tn&t is the pith and substance of it. MR. F. STAGG: (Inaudible) • MR. E.

ROBERTS: And I say to my friend from Stephenville that I say 'pith 1 • He may say what he wishes, but I say 'pith 1 , Sir, pith and substance. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. E. ROBERTS : Now, Your Honour is makinq a sign which I think indicates that I have come to the end of my brief - Is that a half­ minute signal l.ike on television? You know, the Olaintan is new to politics, but how quickly he learns. You would think he was in a T.v. studio , like this. Anyway, Your Honour, I take it I have used up my allotted ten minutes.

It is just getting started, but somebody else will take up the cudgels and I shall come back, because there is mucn more to be said on this point. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chainnan, my hen. colleague an opportunity to have another ten minutes. 2758

.April 25, 1980 Tape 1047 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: It is so refreshing, Mr. Chairman, . to hear that at lut the gre.at fraud ~t has been pe~trated on the people of this Province is being exposed for what it is. I am sure th.at .all bon. DMJmbers on this side of the House now will, for the first time - beca.use we have sat here day in and day out, we have had our patriotism questioned, we have been accused of being tr~i tors. Well, the name calling - the likes I h.ave never heard in my eighteen years in this House. MR. F. STAGG 1 Not all of you have been - MR. s.

NEARY: And now, &ll. of a sudden, in a matter of twanty-four hours, the light is be9inning to shine through. The Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins I got up yesterday and ne ended up his speech by saying, 'I do not c:are how the c:ontrol is confirmed - use whatever one of the five ways you want to use.' That is what the bon. gentleman said. The bon. gentleman gave us a sixth wa.y to confirm the offshoA ownership. The fact of the lliiltter is, Mr. Chairman, that the handling of the offshore has been a shambles and we had evidence of that this 1110rning when the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J.

Dinn) got up and, much to the shock of members of this House, so&id that in order to get a job on the offshore service vessels or on the offshore rigs, your name has to be on a list. I can confiZlll that. That is a fact. I have had numerous Newfoundlanders par.ade into my office and c.all me on the phcne and say, 'I went to Crosbie's Offshore, . I went to this company or that company. I hild a job, but baca.use my name was not on the list, I could not be accepted.' And I am t.alking about Newfoundianders. And they have given me instances and cited cases of where you had to be a Tory in order to get a job.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Not so! Not so! MR. s. NE~: It is so. Mr. Chairman, we h;ave one of the most diiLngerous and dastardly things right now happening in this Province, as far as the hiring is concerned, that I have ever seen in my life. And let me show members the difference between the hiring for the Upper Churchill and the hiring that is going on now. 2760

April 25, 1980 Tape 1047 EC - 3 KR. W. PAl'l'ERSON : You had to C:O!De to Conf ·ederation . Buildinq. MR. s. NEIUtY~ Oh, no, you did not have to c:ome to eonfederati6n Buildinq. The difference . is this 1 Mr. ·Chaixman - and the non. gent.l.eman II;Dpws wh.f.t tile -difference is - Usten to the difference. MR. W. PM"mRSON: It is written right into the BRINCO ac;reemant. MR. S. NEABY ~ 'l'be diff~ce is this. In case the non. lllelllber for Placentia is so preoccupied wi.th makinq grata& for the pxovincial government for pxovincial parka, let l1illl listen. MR. W. PAT'J.'ERSON : ~. S.

NEARY~ Anyt:h.inq (inaudible) Let hiill qo out and play with his qr&t:aa, tbe contracts he has for tile provincial - · 1\0tb.inq but a little goody qo out and play with that. I am ta~g fac:ts here. SOME KON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY : Ke has a contract for ~nq grates for p~al. p~ - let lliJI:I go and play with his little contracts. SOME HON.~RS~ Oh, oh! 2 7 6 '1

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1048 NM - l MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am laying out facts and if the hon. gentleman cannot take it, if he cannot stomach it, let him get out of the kitchen. Well we are going to start fighting. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: We are going to start fighting back and I am going to tell the hen. gentleman the difference between the hiring for the Upper Churchill and the hiring that is going on at the present time. Grante~, Mr.

Smallwood, when he was Premier, asked people to write in, send in letters and send in your name so he could find out how many people were available for employment on the Upper Churchill. That was done. And that is what the hen. gentleman did. But the difference is this, that companies had the right to hire Newfoundlanders even though their names were not on that list. MR. WHITE: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And they do not have that right today. That right does not exist in this Province today. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY : get a job. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear!

If your name is not on the list you do not That is right. Companies cannot hire Newfoundlanders - They can hire them. They cannot hire Newfoundlanders. I have had them parade into my office and call me and come to my home to tell me they had jobs. They had jobs on the offshore. And they were hired.

They were said, "Sure, you can go to work Monday morning." But on Monday morning they were told, "Boy, look, I am sorry to have to embarrass you, your name is not on the government list." My hen. friend said, "What is the criteri2 of a Newfoundlander?" Well, I would be interested in finding out of there is any - the hon. gentleman but I am more interested in finding out if there is any - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 2762

JlF- April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1048 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: - I am more interested in finding out if there is any discrimination as far as these lists are concerned. MR. DINN: None. Not any. MR. NEARY: The minister says, "None." MR. DINN: Not any. MR. NEARY: What do we do? Do we take the minister's word for it? we were told by the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) that he is an honest man, he would not do anything wrong. He gets his legal fees from the Bank of Montreal while he sits in the Cabinet, but he stands up and tells us he is hone1t and he abstains from meetings that are held in connection with this hank.

He would not do anything wrong. And nobody said he would. N?b~d~_said he would. He went and took to the airwaves last night to say, oh, I made it up. I made it up. It is illegal, it is against the criminal code in other provinces to do it but it is all right to do it in Newfoundland. Mr. Chairman, we have a similar situation with the Minister of Manpower (Mr. Dinn). He says, "Oh, I would not do anything wrong. I would not discriminate against a Liberal. I wculd not discriminate against a man on religious grounds. I would not discriminate against a man because of h±s race, his colour or his creed.

But how do we know that, Mr. Chairman? And how do we know that somebody else would not discrimate? Maybe the minister is honest and decent and on the level and fair and just. I would question it. The hon. gentleman has such a buttoned down mind, all he can think about is vested interests, the telephone company, anti-labour. We have in this Province a Minister of Labour (Mr. Dinn) who is anti-labour. MR. PATTERSON: Who dished out (inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the han. gentleman should go out and play with his grates, play with his grates and forget it. MR. PATTERSON: Do not worry (inaudible). 276J

April 25, 1980 MR. NEARY: MR. PATTERSON: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1048 WI - 3 We know all about the hon. gentleman. You are not going - The hon. gentleman manages to jump over seven years of Tory corruption to go back to the Slnaliwood era. Mr. Chairl!lan, my hen. friend will have his opportunity now to get up for another ten minutes but ! want same 1110re information on this hiring policy of this gover:nment. I want to fin1 out if it is possible to get a job without your name being on that . - -~ ·- . -· -~ list . !o!R. DINN: - yes. MR. NEARY: It is not. It certainly is not.

Peeple have had jobs - Well, if the hon . gentleman says it is, let him stand up and say it. And I know people who have had jobs, Newfoundlander s, qualified Newfow:~dlacders, who have had to step asic! .e fo r unqualifiec! Newfour.d.landers , by t h'e way, and we are crea·c.ing a bad image and a bad reputation in the offshore because t:he minister is forcing unqualified people when there are qualiliecl Ne•..r.foundlanders available. But because !:heir names are not on t:he list, !:hey cannot ge1: t:he j obs .

Government members and mini sters have heard t:he complaints from the various companies, saying , "1.-/e want qualified New-foundlanders." And ;:.hey cannot: get them . They cannot hi.re them . I am talking about tradesmen who are unemp loyed. Our tradesmen are !"creed to go out to Fort 'Mac!-lurray, out to Al.berta 276 4

April 25,1980 Tape No. 1049 Mi · i MR. NEARY: because their names are not on the list. This Mussolini-like p9licy has to stop, Mr .• Chairman. I agree with Newfoundlanders getting the first crack. The Premier had to go off the other day to !he Empire Club and one of the main reasons he had to go, by the wa~ was not to talk about Newfoundland's offshore posi~ion but to try and mend the fences, the damage that he had done u~ in Upper Canada, up in Ontario with the hiring p~actices of this Province.

Every Newfoundlander up there - and I had 9hone calls and letters from Newfoundlanders saying, you are the next to go home. The open Lines up there, letters to the editors in the news~apers, where there are so many Newfoundlander~saying, send them all packing back home. I am for Newfoundlanders getting the jobs but I am afraid that there has been an awful lot of damage done with this dangerous hiring policy, this Mussolini-like policy that has been established by a minister who is so anti-labour, can think of nothing only the vested St. John's establishment, the vested interest in this Province.

I would like to have a little more ~laboration on this hiring policy and I want to know from the ministerif it is possible for qualified Newfoundlanders to qo to the various companies involved in the offshore development and get themselves a job? And, incidentally 1 as far as the Smallwood era was concerned, all the contractors at Churchfll Falls had to do was to keep sending in a list, send in a list. MR. CID!:IRMAN (Butt): has expired. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. STIRLING: Order, please! The han. gentleman's time I will come back again, Sir. The han. gentleman for Bonavista North.

If the minister is going to answer some of the questions I will certainly yield to him, if he will answer some questions. HR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the minister. MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, I first of all want to thank the hon. member for Bonavista North (l1r.Stirling) for yielding because I think this is a fairly serious thing that we are talking about here this 2765

r ~•- April 25,1980 Tape No. 1049 AH-2 MR. DINN: morning and I just want to set the record straight as to what the position is. Now the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) agrees with the position of the government with respect to hiring in the offshore. He ·says, a direct quote, he agrees with "Newfoundlanders having the first crack~' Well, Mr. Speaker, that is what I agree with it. That is what this government agrees with, that Newfoundlanders have-the first crack at any jobs in the offshore. Now.how do Newfoundlanders get the first crack?

Somebody goes down to get hired in the o~fshore and he walks into the office when they are doing the hiring and he says, "I would like to have a job in the offshore." "What is your experience?" And they go through that. "Are you registered with the Newfoundland government?" That is one of the criteria. They have a list there and they go through it. "Nowthe easieet thing for you to do if you are qualified , if you are the kind of guy that we want 1 go into the Department of Labour and Manpower. Give us your name. We will call up for you. We will get a registration form. We will fill it out for you.

No problem at all. Register. Make sure that we keep within the offshore regulations. Make sure we are within the guidelines because we 'N'ant to co-operate." The companies say to them , 'We want to co-operate with the Newfoundland government. We want to give the Newfoundlanders every opportunity.'They understand. It has been explained to tha~ very clearly that w~ have a basic social and economic problem here in this Province.

When I have to stand up here in this House and attempt to defend a 15.7 per cent unemployment rate in Newfoundland which ,to my way of thinking, is deplorable- albeit it is better than last year. 1\.t this time last year we had a 20.1 per cent unemployment. This year it is 15 .7 at this point in time and I think it will get better as the year goes on. For me to have to stand up in this House and try to defend it is almost impossible. We have a very serious problem here in this Province and we want the companies, we have asked the companies to co-operate .

Now 1 hon. members opposite make great to-do's about the super depletion allowance and 'the oil companies would not be in here if they did not have it'. Well, the fact of the matter is that they do not have a super depletion allowance right now, that has been cancelled 1 and they are still in here. As a matter of fact 1the drilling programme 2766

April 25,1980 Tape No. 1049 AH-3 MR. DINN: offshore this year is way ahead of what it was last year. We have Petro Canada no•., telling us how many drillings they are going to make this year and the locations and how many ships they are going to have in. And we are discussing with them how many Newfoundlanders should be employed in jobs because we have lists of cooks and electricians and roustabouts and roughnecks and drillers and mess· men that we want to see get jobs in the offshore where at all possible.

Some of the companies have come to us and said, 11 Lool:, just to U:;?qrade, just so we r:o r .. ot have =ri.ction develop in b1e off shore. vie '•Till take some of the cooks that we had last year and upgrade them. We will send them here or send them there. We will send drillers out to Alberta for a few weeks experience so that they understand the lingo, and they understand what they are getting into." And this kind of co-operation we have as a result of the companies accepting the legislation that we passed in this House of Assembly, and the regulations.

No~what I said to han. members this morning and their want is always to misinterpret, for whatever reason, I do not say deliberately misinterpret, it may very well be that way but that is not what I am saying, I am saying that the regulations are such th~t what we want the oil companies to do, the procedure is this, and every month we update our registry. We send it down to them. We have a list of people who come into - maybe into the Department of Labour and Manpower this morning. We attempt to inform these offshore companies who came in this morning so that they have a crack at the jobs in the offshore.

There is nothing on that registration form "that asks whether you are a PC, or a Liberal, or an NDP - born in Newfoundland! you are living in Newfoundland, ~~d you have certain experiences. You have worked as a roughneck. You have worked as a driller and we want to make sure that that Newfoundlander is hired. If he has the qualifications .we want to make sure that that Newfoundlander is hired. I am surprised that another Newfoundlander would get up in the House and call that a Mussolini tactic. That is not what it is all about.

We are attempting to solve a very difficult social and economic problem in this Province. As I said, we have a 15.7 per cent 2767

- April 25, 1980 Tape 'l!o. 1049 AH-4 MR. DINN: unemployment rate in this Province and it is intolerable. And we have to do things to make sure that that does not continue. That does not mean we make jobs for jobs sake. I am totally opposed to, for exampre, just making jobs to take people off welfare, give them jobs that·are reasonable, 276R

April 25, 1980 Tape NO. 1050 EL - 1 MR. J. DINN: give them jobs where they will be paid, where they can stand up as Newfoundlanders and stick their chests out like they are used to doing. It is not a Mussolini tactic, Mr. Speaker, to lay out a procedure. I do not think I have ever sat or ever stood at a counter over in the Department of Labour and Manpower when a person was registering to ask him if he was a Liberal or a Tory or an NDP or whether he was a member of the SIU or a member of the Steel work industry. That is not ~hat it is all about. That is not what it is all about at all.

It is a procedure laid• down so that number one; we have a list of qualified people and we give those qualified people- and the hon. the member for LaPoile (S.Neary) agrees with it- give them first crack at it. If they have the qualifications, we are attempting to insist that these oil comp~es hire our qualified Newfoundlanders, people whom we have trained in our Trades Colleges, people who have had to go to Alberta, have had to go to the Beaufort Sea. And if that is wrong, then I stand accused of attempting to solve a very serious social and economic problem in this Province.

Now, as I said before, the unemploy­ ment rate last year at this time was 20.1 per cent. This year it is 15.7. Next year, please God- MR. S. NEARY: The fisheries. MR. J. DINN: and it is not just fisheries, it is not just fisheries. The hon. member, if he just took Statistics Canada data and had a look at it, he would see that the Linerboard mill construction and fisheries on the N~heast Coast, and fisheries in the St. Barbe district and in St. Anthony that stayed open in the winter - MR. STAGG : MR. J. DINN: are seeing on the West Coast. MR. THOMS: talking abou-c ?

Confidence in the economy . confidence in the economy is what we $35,000 for fishing. What are you 2769

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1050 EL - 2 MR. J. OINN: And, Mr. Speaker, it is going to.get better. Hon. members opposite may not like it, but it is going to get better. And I will say why it is going to get better. MR. STAGG: They are deaf now • they are deaf now. MR. J. DINN: It is going to get better because the linerboard mill is going to go into production ~ AN. HON • MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. J. DINN: - On

schedule • October 1 ,Mr. Speaker, we will have loggers in the woods and we will have people working at the Linerboard mill. And we will have more fish plants opened next winter - more fish plants opened next winter, Mr. Speaker. Hon. members opposite may not like it but that is the way it is going to go. MR. STAGG: They are all becoming P.C.'S MR. J. DINN: And, Mr.

Speaker, two up in Harbour Main, the hon. member says. we11 1if we can do it if we can provide that, if we can provide that kind of stability, if we can provide that kind of climate so that people will move into Newfoundland 1 so that finally Newfoundlanders start sticking out their chests again like I like to do as a Newfoundlander 1 stand up anywhere in· this Dominion, anywhere in this world and say come to Newfoundland 1 you have all kinds of opport- unities 1 but you will do it under guidelines.' It is not geing to be develop or perish~ It is not going to be - come in ,we will give you all the money and you develop on your basis,.

Mr. Speaker, from now on, entrepreneurs will-know, oil companies will know that what we are doing here in Newfoundland is going to be done on a very well-planned basis. And we are going to give Newfoundlanders first crack and we are going to tell the companies how that first crack can be gotten, that you have a registry of Newfoundlanders with experience who can do the job on the offshore and Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Eagle River (E. Hiscoe;.~ - I will assist him in any way possible or the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (G. Warren) or the hon. member for St. Marys - the Capes 2770

-·~ April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1050 EL - 3 MR. J. DINN: (D.Hancock). I will do anything within my power. SOME HON • MEMBERS : ._oh. oh l MR. J. DINN: The election is over. The election was over in June. We all know the result of that. We~l, I am not here to fight an election right now. I will fight an election when the next election day rolls around. But, right now, we have to co-operate with hon. members opposite and with people on this side of the House to make sure that Newfoundlanders get their just rewards, get the opportunities for jobs. SOME • HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. J.

DINN: And I am not apologizing to anybody in this House or anywhere else. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Right on, right on. MR • • CHAI~.AN: (Butt) The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. L • THOMS : Thank you, Mr. Chairman, there ~e just a couple of things I want- ed to speak on in relation to some of the comments that were made MR. NEARY: MR. L. THOMS: were made today. MR. NEARY: MR. L. THOMS: (Inaudible) piece of rubbish. - yesterday and some of the comments that Who built the linerboard mill?The Liberals.

There is one thing that bothers me, whenever we talk about offshore oil and gas, the attitude that is taken by some members whenever we talk about a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada. Now, I realize - I do not think my friend, the President of CounciL holds this particular view but I heard several members across the floor of this House yesterday cast aspersions on the Supreme Court of Canada and the judges of that Court MR. NEARY: Right on ! 2771

April 25, 1980 Tape 1051 EC - 1 MR. L. THOMS: For anyone to suggest in this House that ~ewfoundland would not get a fair hearing before the Supreme Court, I think, is scandalous. I really believe it is scandalous. I have not heard it from the President of the Council (Mr. W. Marshall) • I am not quite sure whether I heard it from the ~~ember for Stephenville (Mr. F • Stagg) or not. I believe that ~ewfoundland woW.d get a fair hearing. I am not saying it is the proper route to go. MR. HISCOCK: It might be the only one to go. MR. L. THOMS: It might be the only one to go, yes.

Maybe we can negotiate an agreement with Ottawa. For sure, there is one thing I do think - I think, instead of the Premier of this Province being in HalifaX speaking on Canadian unity, he shoW.d be in Ottawa trying to find out what the present government's position is on offshore oil and gas~ But that is not the strategy. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR. L. THOMS: If Pierre Trudeau were to say to the Premier of this Province, 'It is yours, you own it, you can do what you like with it.

You can develop it, you can bring it ashore, you can leave it there - it is yours, the most disappointed person in this Province would be the Premier of this Province. MR. S • !fEAR'! : MR. L. THOMS: great fighter. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR. L. THOMS: Right on, he would lose his image. He ... auld lose his image as being the Pierre is not about to do that. You will not know if you do not ask him. He would have nothing any longer to wave his arms about and look like a raving maniac. He would have nothing else to shout and scream about in this House and everywhere else. He would have nothing else to do.

Sut for ministers - I heard this from the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. ~. Morganl yesterday - to suggest that if we should go tc the Supreme Court of Canada that we have lost before we got into court because we have a bunch of bigoted, prejudiced iudges on the 2772

April 23, 1980 Tape lOSl EC - 2 MR. L, THOMS: Supreme Court of Canada. MR. S • NEARY : Bora Laskin would be interested in hearing that. MR. L. THOMS: Indeed, Bora. Laskin would be interested in hearing it~ I think it is something that is being said in thls House by members on the opposite side that is scandalous and should be pointed out. I do not want to hear any more of it, and I certainly do not want to hear any more from the member for Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, we have seen a situation - I will tell you what the Premier of t.'lis Province is doing for Canadian unity. He was speaking in Halifax yesterday or today on Canadian unity. On May 20th in Quebec there is a vote, a very important vote dealing with whether or not this Canadian federation remains as one family, Now, do not tell me, Mr. Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture (Mr. R. Dawe), that the caribou situation in Labrador could not have waited until after May 20th. MR. F. STAGG: All the caribou were taken. MR. L.

THOMS: Do not tell me that the Premier of this Province could not have waited until May 21st to break off negotiations with Quebec. AN HON • MEMBER: Why not? MR. L. THOMS: Because what is happening in Newfoundland today - maybe the member for Menihek (Mr. P. Walsh) wants Quebec to separate thereby qiving more fuel to separatists in Labrador. And you heard them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L. THOMS: The Minister of Rural Development denies it exists. 2773

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1052 so - l MR. L. THOMS : But you heard it in meetings in Goose Bay because you and I were sitting on the same Select Committee and we heard the ·Executive Director or President, whoever he is, of the Labrador Resource; Advisory Council. You heard him and he was openly advocating the separatis~ and a separate Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right on. MR. L. THOMS: I believe my friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr. G. Warren) who was at the same meeting brought it up in the House a couple of days ago. And what is this government doing? Funding that movement, funding it. MR. S.

NEARY: Funding it, that is right. MR. WARREN: $120,000. MR. L. THOMS: $120,000 is the figure that I have heard. What - so Bill Flowers can go around Labrador advocating separatism. I think it is an- irresponsible act of this administration and c~is Premier, what he has done in the last few days in this Province. We have been negotiating with Quebec on the Upper Churchill and the Lower Churchill and the caribou herds for years now, another twenty or twenty-five days would not have cost us anything. And I understand that Rene Levesque is having a ball with this in Quebec. MR. WALSH: .MR. L. THOMS : MR.

WALSH: says to him. MR. L. THOMS: is doing to us. MR. S • NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS : to this nation - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THmiS : nation. Oh, sure (inaudible) He is having a ball with it • That is what the rest of Canada He is - look what Newfoundland Ruined. Oh, oh! Maybe you do not care what happens Oh, oh. - but I do care what happens to this 2774

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1052 SD- 2 MR. NEARY: They do not. MR. L. THOMS : No person in this Province disagrees =re with the garllage that I read' from my own brother this =rning in the Daily News. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. L. THOMS: Tripe I I do not want to become the fifty-first state of the united States. I do not want this Province to become the fifty-first state of the United States. And I will fight against it and I told this to a very close friend of the Premier's who was advocating the separatism of Newfoundland from the rest of Canada with an eye to joining the United States. MR. J.

HODDER: He wants to be King Brian (inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: He wants to be King Tut AN HON. MEMBER: He wants (inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: That is right. MR. L. THOMS: And I will fight it while I' have a last breath in me to prevent that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. S. NEARY: He wants his own flag - do away with the Union Jack, his own little kingdom, his own army. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, ten minute~ go awfully quickly. I would like to have a few brief words. In a committee meeting,.. I believe it was only yesterday, I made a statement to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.J.

Dinn) that I found our Newfoundland first policy re'pugnant. It is repugnant to me. The minister agreed and he said, "It is repugnant to " me, "But" ,he sai<;J.,"They are necessary." And well may they be necessary but they are not easy to swallow.

You know, the most ridiculous state- ment, I think, I have heard in connection with that was the Minister of Labour and Manpower who said, "w"hen we get total employment in the Province of Newfoundland," he said, "I am going to get aboard ~~e plane and I am going to go all ac~ss Canada, I am going to Toronto, I am going to Calgary, I am going to go down to Boston, I 2775 ·'

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1052 SD - 3 MR. L. THOI'.S: am going to knock on every door of every New- foWldlander who has left - all 500,000 or 1,000,000 or however many there are out there, and I am going to bring them all back to Newfoundland." Of course, he may get a surprise, he might find that an awful lot of them do not want to come back, they are settled away. MR. F. STAGG: we do not want them. MR. L. THOMS : I do not know who the member for Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) wants, I really do not know and I do not particularly care.

But what has gone on here these last couple of days, the comments about the Supreme Court, what has happened in our breaking off the negotiations with Quebec at ~!lis crucial time, I do not like and I will continue, and I do not care how many people say that I am unpatriotic, I will continue to speak out on these matters, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIR!1A\''I: (Baird) The hen. member for Stephenville. MR. F. STAGG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms) has gotten up in his usual way with nothing to say and has expanded nothing in the ten minutes but I must say he is getting quite good at it.

SOME HON. ~!EMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. F. STAC-G: He is getting q~ite good at saying nothing but stretching it over as long a period as_pcssible. MR. L. STIRLING: Which is your domain. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. F. STAGG: Now, the member for Bonavista North (Mr. L. Stirling) has not been in the House for the past two weeks, he has been on the mainland making money or whatever, dealing with his business, on vacation o~ whatever, he has not been dealing with the affairs of the House so he thinks that if he comes back here 2776

" April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1053 NM - 1 MR. STAGG: and he interjects in somebody else's speech that he can get some coverage and make people, his constituents, forget that he is not attending to the business he was elected for. But maybe he will have a chance a little later on. MR. STAGG: Now, I want to deal with the Supreme Court of Canada again. This is probably as close as I am ever going to get to speaking to the Supreme Court of Canada, probably similar to my learned friend from Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms). But I am of the opinion- MR. THOMS: Speak for yourself. MR.

STAGG: - that the Supreme Court of Canada recently is showing a distinctive bent towards the federal centralists view and I am not - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Shame! Shame! Shame! MR. STAGG: Yes, the BC reference case is - AN HON. MEMBER: A long time ago. MR. STAGG: - a long time ago. It is the latest. It is the latest. And I am not assured in the least that a reference to the Supreme Court of Canad~ as our friend from Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) had distributed to the media on the West Coast recently, his position on offshore oil and gas, he says that the Prime Minister of Canada would not oppose a reference to the Supreme Court. Well 1 I do not suppose he would oppose a reference to the Supreme Court. But if it got to the Supreme Court would he then not appear? Would the lawyers for the federal government not appear? I doubt it. I doubt it very much. What we have in Ottawa, gentlemen, Mr. Chairman, what we have in Ottawa is a centralist Prime Minister.

He told the students of Memorial University in January of this year - the students of Memorial University, by the way: who will be the people who will be sitting in this Chamber in ten years time, ten or fifteen years time - the students he was talking to there are the politicians of the 1990s. Some of them might even get there in the 1980s. But they are the people he was talking to. And it was the 2777

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1053 NM - 2 MR. STAGG: view of the Federal Liberal Government that we have for another five years, because there is no way he is going back to the people until 1985. MR. THOMS: No way. MR. STAGG: It is a centralist governm~nt. He said, "You would be fabulously wealthy. Fabulously wealthy." Could you not just see him and the scorn that he was heaping on us Newfoundanders at that time, scorn~ AN HON. MEMBER: We will see if he is bluffing. MR. STAGG: Mr. Trudeau is only interested in what history has to say about him, and how he dealt with Quebec and what a great citizen of Quebec he was.

That is what he is worried about. AN HON. MEMBER: He elected five out of seven. MR. STAGG: Yes, you elected five out of seven on a charade and a sham, on eighteen cents on a gallon of gas and now you have the very budget - AN HON. l'l.EMBER: With your help. MR. STAGG: Yes,with my help to some extent- MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): Order, please! MR. STAGG: - the hen. member was able to misinterFret some things that I said, because I was standing up for what was correct and hen. members are able to twist and turn and deceive the public on many occasions, just as the federal government does regularly.

It is de rigeur for the Federal Liberals to change their minds. Price and wage control, have we forgotten price and wage control and ~e promise not to envoke it and to win an election on the basis of it and then come in and envoke it? And the budget that they were slavering at the jaws to defeat in December of 1979, major portions of that budget have been introduced. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 2778

April 25, 1980 rape No. 1053 NM - 3 MR. STAGG: And the Prime Minister, he was then Leader of the Opposition, down here telling the youth of our Country, telling the youth of our Province, and the youth of Canada, what he thought of Mr. Peckford, as he said, and he almost spit the word out. AN HON. MEMBER: I have difficulty - MR. STAGG: What he thought of Mr. Peckford's position. Well 1what is the position? What is the position of Mr. Peckford and Mr. Clar~? There are four principles that they enunciated, four principles that they agreed on 1 and here are the four principles. I am going to read them.

Basic principles concerning offshore mineral resources. And I have to read from my copious notes here, Mr. Chairman. I hope I can get through them within the allotted time. How much time do I have? Seven minutes left? Five minutes left. First princ·iple, the Province of Newfoundland should own the mineral resources of the Continental Margin off its Coast insofar as Canada is entitled to exercise sovereign rights over these resources in accordance with international law. Such ownership should be - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. STAGG: Shut u~ will you? I am trying to read.

I cannot read well when somebody is interrupting me. Such o~nership should be - MR. THOMS: - your own party. MR. STAGG: - to the extent possible. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): Order, please! MR. STAGG: This is our position. This is our position. We agree with this position. 2779

April 25,1980 Tape No. 1054 AH-1 MR. STAGG: Such ownership should be to the extent possible of the same nature as if these resources were located within the boundaries of the·Province. The legislative jurisdiction of the Province shouid,to the extent possible 1be the same as for those resources within the boundaries of the Province. Can anythin~ be - clearer than that? That is the position of Peckford. ~hat is the position of Clark. And the position of Prime Minister Trudeau was enunciated at Memorial University, he does not believe in any of that. He believes that if you get some mone1, yes he will bring you up.

He says he will gi•Te you some money and he will bring you up to where you are a have Province. We will determine when you are a have province. Statistics Canada will probably do that. Number two principle; Such ownership of and legislative jurisdiction over offshore resources by Newfoundland will be consistent with and subject to the division of legislative competence as between parliament and provincial legislatures under the Constitution of Canada agreed to by this government and the previous government.

The third principle; The legislative jurisdiction and responsibilities of the Government of Canada in areas such as the projection of the environment, national defence, customs and excise, shipping and navigation, external affairs, the management of international interprovincial trade and pipelines will continue. The fourth principle; The above principles will be further confirmed and implemented by the signing of an agreement between the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and by appropriate legislative action and constitutional change.

Now, that is the will of a great patriot, a great Canadian, the great Joe Clark and a great Canadian, the great Brian Peckford. That is the position of the Government of Canada and that is the position of the Government of Newfoundland as enunciated last Fall. What is the position of your leader? The position of your leader is that he does not want to say anything because he might want to be an ambassador or whatever. My understanding is that he is not going to lead you much longer and what are you doing? And what is the position of the present Prime Minis~er of Canada, the centralist Prime Minister of Canada?

Wh~ do 2780

April 25,1980 Tape No. 1054 AH-2 MR. STAGG: we have to ask him? The man has said on any number of occasions that he does not want the regions of the country to be powerful. He does not agree that Newfoundland should have control and ownership of its offshore resources That is what he said. He said it at Memorial University. If he has changed his mind and wants to confirm what is in these exchange of lett:rs and to confirm the basic four principles that we have here all he has to do is say it. He does not exist outside of Canada. It is something that is most important to all the provinces of Canada.

It is becoming important to Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia is saying much the same thing as we are. As a matter of fact 1 there was an editorial in the Evening Telegram yesterday, I wish I had here, saying Nova Scotia has even gone further than us , they are claiming out to the middle of the Atlantic. MR. NEARY: Halfway to England. MR. STAGG: Halfway to England. Well, that is certainly a change from the Regan formula, the Minister of work and Play, as he now is.

The Regan formula would take whatever Ottawa would give him and he tried to slither and slink his way back into power in Nova Scotia but the people of Nova Scotia did not believe him and now they have a PC government in Nova Scotia. Thank God for Nova Scotia. They are taking Newfoundlands lead. Read Atlantic Insight . Read the editorial in Atlantic Insight about Nova Scotia's position vis-a-vis Newfcnndland. Nova Scotia is ten years behind Newfoundland. And Brian Peckford and Joe Clar !< :.;ere the wave of the 1980s, the wave of the 1980s and Trudeau is back in the 1960s.

He is still fighting the battle that he is more responsible than anyone else, losing to Rene Levesque. It is his fault. It is Pierre Trudeau's fault that we have the separatist problem in Quebec. He gives rise to people like.Rene Levesque. He is a confrontationalist. He would prefer to go to war, at least in the argumentative sense, I think he is a pacifist in the military sense. AN HON. MEMBER: Chicken. MR. STAGG: My hon. friend says, chicken. \lell - t MR. STIRLING: Your time is up. MR. STAGG: Well, gentlemen, I would like for you fellows 2 7 81

?.p:il 25, 19 80 ,!R . Sl'AGG: MR . N"EAiU': MR. STAGG: Tape No . 1054 to suggesr. r.o - fellows? AH-3 Yes, you fellows over there because you do not have any femal~s on your side. MR. STIRLING: You may have more than or.e on yow:s . MR. STAC-G: I would like for you fellows r.o add:ess yo w:selves, hon. genr..lemen opposi te, to address yow:se:lves to these :ow: principles and where does che t.eader of r.he Governmenc of Canada and the Leader of the .Libera~ party, to whom all you people 2782

April 2S, 1980 Tape No. lOSS ow - 1 MR. F. STAGG: aspire,perhaps 1 because you want to escape to Ottawa, a lot of you. You had better escape to Ottawa fast"because the means of escape is being cut off for you here in Newfoundland because you are all going aown the drain in the next election. I might even run against two or three of you myself- we will have to amend the House of Assembly Act for that. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I would like to have another crack at them a little later but I understand my time is up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) MR. T. BENNETT: Hear, hear! The hon. member for St. Barbe . Mr.

Chairman, it seems to me that we are only discussing two major problems, or it seems like the government side of the House can only find two major problems to revolve a discussion around. To me it seems that nobody over on that side of neuse recognizes that we have other problems like a third and a fourth and a fifth and a sixth and a seventh and a eighth and many, many more. It seems to me they have only two problems, one seems to be revolving around oil offshore and one seems to be revolving around hydro.

It seems to me that they forget we have other problems like fishery, like farming, like timber, like highways, like trans­ portation, like everything else in the Provi nce, like the people who are unemployed, and like Air Canada who are making all the money employing our unemployed people up on the main- land subsidized by the Federal Government. It seems to me like some of these things are being forgotten. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that Air Canada is making the money from the unemployed.

I think it is about time we started talking about some of the unemployed people we have here and what are we doing with them, what .,e are 'doing for them •. 2783

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1055 DW - 2 MR. T. BENNETT: I happen to be fortunate e~ough to represent one of the better districts in the Province and unfortunate enough to represent among the highest unemployed in the Provoince. Last Winter sixty or seventy per cent unemployed is a disgrace to any province. A disgrace to any government! We have in the balcony a man who went out and worked very hard toward the fishery and from what I understand not from him, but from others who aspired in the same direction as he down through the years to develop our fishery, never could ' ~t ~ first·base in the district of St.

Barbe and, indeed; in most of the other parts of the Province. They have worked their hearts and souls out and what do they get from govern- ment apart from red tape and stumbling blocks? And I was involved in business myself and this was all I got_ I am out of the business now, I am just in here now trying to talk on behalf of the Province and on behalf of the people in the district I represent. Having been in that district and having worked there in the last - it is ten years ago I remember some great explosion took place up in the Flowers Cove area. We were then talking about - the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) could probably tell us exactly how many dollars of the taxpayers' money went down the drain with that explosion to bring hydro across the Strait of Belle Isle. And here we are today still wondering if we are going to be able to finance the Lower Churchill. We are still wondering. It seems to me that the hon. gentlemen across on the qovern­ ment side have all the clean linen ~ hang on the lines that run down through Quebec and we have all the dirty linen. It seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that way back in the sixtie~ or whenever negotiations took place with Quebec to put that power line down through to the U.S., somebody had brains enough then to enter into negotiations at 278~

April 25 , 1980 Tape No. lOSS ow - 3 MR. T. BENNE _TT' that time. It may have been a bad deal but today we cannot even find people on the govern­ ment side who seem to have the ability, Mr. Chairman, to go and negotiate to qet power lines or even hang their clean linen on existing power lines. We continue to cry over spilled ~ilk. we cohtinue to cry over it. AN HON. MEMBER: )o!R. T. BENNETT: Wastihg the people's time. Wasting the time of the House of Assembly when we have so much to do, so much work to be done, so much more important things to do and every time that anybody in this House of Assembly tries to present 2 78~

-p April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1056 EL - 1 MR. BENNETT: anything a little bit constructive, they go back over the twenty-five years ago - the Smallwood era. Well, I am glad to have lived in that Smallwood era. and I. am glad to have lc:.nown some of the Politicians · who governed the Province at that time. I am also happy and glad to be able to look into this Budget Speech, Mr.

Chairman, and on Page 138 ,realize in the ten years from 1960 to 1970, there is an obligation still outstanding on the part of the government for something like $200,000,000 but if you go on from 1970 on down through to the present day, you will find that it is something like one and a half billion dollars. You know, to me, it is non-sensical. We do not seem to have money for - what have we done ?· What has this government done in eight years? Where have they built the high schools? Where have they built the universities? Where have they built the trade schools? Where have they built the Trans ca~aca? - AN. HON.

MEMBER: Hospitals. MR. T. BENNE'l"l" : Where have they built the hospitals? Where? Where has the one arid a half billion that these bonds displayE­ where have that one and a half billion ', where have the $4,500 per capita for every man, woman and child, where have the $4,500 gone in the last ten years? MR. WALSH: (Inaudible) district. MR. T. BENNETT: Mr. Chairnan, the road up to the North- ern Peninsula was built before 1980.

I will agree there is a fair amount of paving done now with the Federal dollar gone up in that direction and I can see right here in front of me, today where, in a newsclipping, the park authorities - the Gros Morne park authority are aspiring to spend something like $7,000,000 within the park area. Our Minister of Transportation (C. Brett) cannot find fifteen or twenty or - I can find money enough to put a ramp in woody Point. But our Department of Transportation cannot find it. They have not got it. Or, at least, I am led to believe that they 2786

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1056 EL - 2 MR. T. BEm"ETT: have not. Perhaps, they have it; I hope they do have it, because that is going to be a disaster. MR. F. STAGG: (Inaudible) irrelevant. MR. T. BEm!ET: Okay, so it is not relevant. But it is still the ·taxpayers'dollars. You keep talking about the government not jumping into things without knowing what they are doing. And to me, it seems like they - this suggesting that we jumped into confederation and right now, after only thirty years, a short time, they want another jump, in which direction, I wonder? You know, to me, it does not make sense.

They say that they want to jump into things. I do not see them jumping into anything. I do not see them jumping. I just do not see them jumping. I do not see them jumping. They are jumping into debt. They are jumping into forever and ever and ever increased and escalating debt without producing or without displaying anything to the taxpayers of this province. What is really happening to the dollars( That is what they are jumping into, Mr. Chairman. With a provincial debt that .has more than tripled in eight years of disaster-the government trying to blind­ fold the news media and the Province.

Oil- hydro~ oil- hydro, the only two things-blindfold-and ~eglect everything else that will employ people, the basic industries 1 the basic jobs, the things that will create jobs. AN. HON. MEMBER: $35,000,00l (inaudible). MR. T. BENN!;TT: We are going to have to wait another seven or eight or probably ten years for any revenue coming from offshore oil, if we ever get offshore oil revenues. And what do we do in the mean­ time? What are we going to do?

Are we going to develop secondary industries rather than ship everything out of the Province, like the present government condemned the previous government for before the previous 2787

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1056 EL - 3 MR. T • BENNETT : government even had the chance to build the highroads and plants and fishplants and things to acoomodate the resource of the Province that we had, the raw materials, before we even go~ in, .place to harvest? And now, we are in place to harvest a lot of the resource and I think we should very hastily move in a position to create secondary resource. They keep on suggesting that we should go talk to our counterparts in Ottawa. Have you people not talked to Ottawa yourselves: Wh¥? We are not the government. You people are the government.

I wish you would go to Ottawa, you as the government. Talk to 0ttawa - MR. S • NEARY: Right on. Or get out (inaudible) MR. T. BENNET'!' : Talk to Ottawa. Look, you are no further away than the telephone. We can make the appointment, sure we can. You are no further away than the telephone. Call the Prime Minister. Tell us what the Prime Minister's policy is. We will let you know if we agree. MR. STAGG: The Prime Minister told us what his policy was. MR. T. BENNETT: And I suspect you do not understand what it is, and that is ~hy all the schmozzle and all the discussion revolves around it. MR. THOMS: Right on. MR.

T. BENNETT: Mr. Chairman, I think it is about time we came back to reality. X think we have a lot of things in this Province going for us, and I think it is about time that we realized it, recog- nized it and went to work on it instead of pie in the sky. Thank you, very much. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) : The hen. the Minister of Finance. 2788

.... "" April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1056 EL - 4 DR. J. COLLINS: Mr.· Chairman, I suppose a response is required to some of the addresses given by members opposite. I have tried to make some notes, Now, they are rather skimpy, because really there have been 27Bq

•# April 25, 1980 Tape 1057 EC - 1 DR. J. COLLINS : very few points made and I have tried to keep track of ones that did require an answer. And there really was very little. For .ins~ce, the hon. House Leader opposite 1 last night when the House rose, I thought he was going to rebut what was said on this side e.rlier in the day and in particular, as I was the last speaker, he was going to rebut what I said. Well, I listened for a full five minutes - and I timed it on the clock up there - I listened for a full five minutes &nd he did not make a single rebuttal, he did not make a single point.

As a matter of fact, it was all total drivel. He was more or less carrying on a conversation with his companions behind him. There was almost a totU absence of anything to put your teeth into. And that seems to be the tone that is coming across from the other side of the House.

There is a lot of wind and a lot of rhetoric and a lot of flapping, but really 1 on this very important issue which we seem to be getting into in discussing the Premier's Estimates, that is the implications for the Province of our offshore resources, this very important issue we are getting into is being downgraded into a lot of wind and a lot of flab. !lowever, I did make some effort to pick a few points that I thought should be responded to. Now 1 the House Leader opposite (Mr. B. Roberts) said this government has no policy with regard to offshore. He called it 'posture'.

I would say that we do have a very clear policy. Our policy on the offshore is that we· own the resources on the Continental Shelf and on the Continental Slope. That is one aspect of the policy. The other part of the policy which is extremely important - MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please! DR. J. COLLINS : - and which our members opposite do not seem to be able to accept - because it has been traditional Liberal policy never to accept it - and that is that not only ownership, but exercise of ownership, members opposite cannot understand that.

They cannot understand that when you have ownership you must also exercise it 279n

April 25, 1980 Tape 1057 EC - 2 DR. J. COLLmS: or that is a total negation of ownership. And that is our policy. That is what we are trying to do. That is a primary .consideration. The thing is always put up that this government has no policy because it only talks of ownership. This government does not talk only of ownership'. It talks of ownership, undoubted, indubitable, cannot be alienated, but it alsd talks about exercise of it. We will exercise the ownership because we have the right to exercise it, we should exercise it, we would be irrespo1111ible if we did not exercise it.

Now I understand from members opposite that they cannot understand that and they do net wish that to happen. They wish us to say, 'Yes, we own it, but let us negotiate with you to see who will exercise it. And if you say, 'We want to exercise it,' they probably would go along with that. They certainly would say, 'If you want to exercise it as much as we will,' they will go along with that. That is a total absence of deep thinking, I would say.

It is the most shallow way of thinking, that you just say, 'I own, but I do not do anything about it.' You have to do something about it to have a valid thought in this matter. Now, the members opposite really are taking a new tack in this whole thing. I think it has become clear in the last twenty-four hours that they cannot respond to the question we pose, that is, What is your policy? We have stated our policy, quite a clear one, quite a defenceful one, one that the people of Newfoundland recognize - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please! Order, please! DR. J.

COLLms: - and one that the people of Newfoundland support - because they are supporting the position that this government is taking- and when we have asked the members opposite to state their policy, they finally have given up. They have finally said, 'No, we cannot answer that question because we do not have a policy.' So they have now changed their tactic, and their change of tactic is that they will not say what 2 7 9 1

April 25, 1980 Tape 1057 EC - 3 DR. J. COLLINS : their policy is, they will now mer!lllY say, 'We know that you have a policy over there. We will now, first of all, question the mechanics of your policy.' They bring in that point, they will say 'the mechanics of your policy' and in questioning the mechanics, what they are bring up are unsubstantiated points·, unsubstantiated charges such as that we are trying to have people hired for purely political considerations - totally unsubstantiated. And, also, they are bringing up various other innuendoes.

There is not a single, solitary concrete point that the way we are pursuing our policy, the mechanism, in other words, of our policy, is anything but th.e best in the circumstances they are presenting to us. They are merely questioning us on the basis of unsubstantiated charges and innuendo. I would like them to bring forward a fact, ;r. concrete fact that one can look at.

Now, having really worked that one out and not qetting anywhere with it - because they do not have any facts at hand- they are now saying, 'Not only have we' -that is the members opposite - 'no policy , but we are going to question if you have a policy.' But then, having gotten nowhere with that they then say, 'Well, you do not have a policy anyway. ' There are a number of things that have come out , though , that I think one can say , even though members opposite do not recognize it or do not state it, there is in actual fact a Liberal policy in terms of the offshore.

If you listen carefully and piece it together, you can actually come up with the policy opposite, and I think it was said by a number of people this morning, various aspects of it. For instance, the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms) said, 'Newfoundlanders first, are repugnant to me.' In essence, he is saying that the - MR. L. THOMS: MR . Oil!.I~.AN (Butt) : for Grand Bank . MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, a point of order. A point of order, the hon. the member I think the rec~r.d will show that I said that the policy of Newfoundlanders first, the policy itself, was repugnant 2792

i\pril 25 1 l98Q Tape 1057 EC - 4 MR. L. THOMS 1 to me. And not only · that, QQt the. Minisf:!t r of :LAbour and Manpower (Mr. J. Diz!ll) agreed, the fact that - had to have that. requlation waa HpUCJll<mt to him. I d.i.d not say tl!at trewfoWldl.anders are repuCJll<Ult to .., , Which is what you just saicl. Mil. J. DIN5 1 Q. CHAIRMAN (Butt) 1 Minister of Labour and ManpoWer • Mr. ChaUmaA, to that point of'" order. To the point of order; the hon. the .MR.. J. DDiN: To that point of order. The hon. the member filr G:tand Bank (Mr.

I.. 'rhoms) in ~ rebutta.l, in his indefiUIBiDle position, has brouqht up the pelicy of the Ministor of Labour and Manpower. 'rhe policy of the Minister of Labour and MallpOWer 279:1

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1058 NM - 1 MR. DINN: is that we have a social, economic - MR. NEARY: If your name is not on the list you do not get a job. MR. DINN: - problem here in this Province, and that we have a 15.7 per cent unemployment rate and that we have a policy of Newfoundlanders first. Whilst I would liek to open the flood gates, if I were in the same position as Alberta - MR. THOMS: Be relevant on the point of order. MR. DINN: - If I were in the same position as Alberta is in - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) them all. MR. DINN: - we could open the doors and allow anybody to come in and take the jobs.

But w-e have qualified people here in Newfoundland MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. DINN: - whilst we have those qualified people here in Newfoundland we are going to have the companies hire Newfoundlanders. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt ) : Order, please! MR. DINN: And Newfoundlanders first. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Eear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! To the point of order I will have to take this under advisement right now and check Hans~rd before I make my ruling. The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, in case there was any offence given it was not intended.

I was merely trying to say what the han. member said. If it helps I will say that the hon. member's point was that employment then of Newfoundlanders first is repugnant to him. He was referring to the policy in terms of the employment of Newfoundlanders. MR. THOMS: A point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the han . member for Grand Bank. 279L

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1058 NM - 2 MR. THOMS: The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is still misquoting and I can only come t~ the conclusion, deliberately misquoting me. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Shame! Shame! MR. THOMS: This is not what I said. MR. STAGG: The han. member is misquoting himself. MR. THOMS: This is not what I said. I said I find that a regulation which says Newfoundlanders first, or Quebecers first or anybody first, the concept, the idea, the principle is repugnant to me. I also went on to say - MR. COLLINS: In regard to what? MR.

THOMS: I also went on to say that this policy may be a necessary policy. But again you are twisting my words by saying that in somehow or other I am casting an aspersion an Newfoundlanders. Why would I do that? I am a Newfoundlander. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): To the pcint of order, the han. rnemeer for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I believe, Your Honour, if the minister persists an attacking my f~iend and misquoting him, I believe Your Honour has to give a ruling because we just cannot have that sort of thing going on. He is deliberately doing it.

So maybe Your Honour would like to take five minutes and give us the ruling so ~e can dispense with this matter. Otherwise the bon. gentleman cannot carry on. DR. COLLINS: I want to speak, Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order? DR. COLLINS: To that point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: The han . member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) was clearly referring to our employment situation, our employment policy, the employment of Newfoundlanders on a preferential basis and I was making 2795

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1058 NM - 3 DR. COLLINS: the point that he finds this repugnant to him. That is all I am making and if he wishes that I phrase it in some other ~ay, as long as that meaning comes through, I will do it. I will do it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR. COLLINS: The point I was making, Mr. Chairman, if I may speak to the point of order, was that in terms of the Newfoundlander first in employment situation, the han. member was making the point that this was repugnant to him. MR. THOMS: Withdraw it. l-IR .

CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, I will check with Hansard and just see what had transpired because when the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) was speaking I was not in the Chair so I will take it upon myself to check Hansard and give my ruling later. The hon. Minister of Finance's time has expired. The next speaker, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I only wish that Your Honour had rose the Committee and looked into this matter. But Your Honour will choose another course and I cannot question that.

I mean that is Your Honour's prerogative.· But I do want to comment on a number of matters that were raised by previous speakers on the gover~~ent side of the H~use. At long last, Mr. Speaker, in this session of the House we finally got the ministers and the government in the position they should be in and that is defending their policy. We finally got them, they are up one after the other defending their policy. And I do hope that the press will forgive us, will forgive us that we cannot go down item by item of the Executive Council and the Premier's salary and so forth. We will get around to that.

We still have five hours left. But we finally got them in a position that chey should be in. The Opposition's job in this House is to zero in on the weaknesses in government policy and make them get ~p and explaili and defend themselves. And that is what they are doing and they are making fools of themselves in the process. MR. WARREN: Right on. Ri~ht on. We just heard from the baby doctor. 2796

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1058 NM - 4 MR. NEARY: We just heard from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), we just heard from the buttoned-down mind, the Acting Premier, and_what he was doing, Mr. Chairman, what he was doing, he was trying to make up to his colleagues for a blunder for puttin~ his_ foot ~u-~ 2797

. .~..: .. April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1059 SD - 1 MR. S • ~:t:ARY : obviously has the hoof mouth disease-for putting his foot in it yesterday by saying - MR. E. ROBERTS Wait until the Premier sees his answers. MR. S • NEARY! That is right. By ending up his speech when he said, "I:do not care which one of the ffve options we choose to confirm the offshore management, let us use one of them." DR. J. COLLmS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

A point of order, the hon. the A point just came up about quoting prorerly and I would just point out that the han. member for LaPoile, if he is going to quote me I would like him to read Hansard or read from Hansard if he is going to quote and not put his

interpretation on it 1which is totally inexact. MR. E. ROBERTS: . MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. To the point of order, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isl~. MR. E. ROBERrS: Mr. Chairman, of all the inane and ineptl·r stated points of order I ever heard that has to be the prize. 1•'::/ han. friend from LaPoile (Mr. S.

Neary), indeed, was not quoting t..F:!e han. gentleman and to finish with 1 all he was doing was debating, I would not even say it 'N'as a difference of opinio~ between two han. members in that time honoured rubric because I am not so sure that when the Minister of Finance spoke yesterday he even expressed an opinion. But I mean, there is no point of order there at all and my friend from LaPoile ought to be allowed - he has only got ten minutes, this deliberate strategy or what appears to be a deliberate strategy of harassing him ought really to be stopped so he can car~J on ~~i th some very interesting stuff.

MR. WARREN: Right on. 279A

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1059 SD-2 MR. CHAIRMAN: (BUTT): To the point of order I would rule that there is no point of order but obviously a difference of opinion between two han. members. The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I was merely summarizing what the hen. gentleman said. And in

summary what the hen. gentleman sajd . yesterday when he concluded his remarks was that he did not.care, he did not care which one of the five options, what route the government chooses to confirm - AN HON. MEMBER: Which government? MR. NEARY: The provincial government. AN HON. MEMBER: The federal government. MR. NEARY: Ah, that is what the han. gentleman indicated to the House. I am summarizing - DR. COLLINS: The federal government. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman. MR.

THOMS: Read Hansard. ~~- NEARY: It does not make any difference, it is still just as bad if he says he does not care which route the federal government chooses, that makes it worse. I mean, that is going to get him in more hot water with his colleagues. gentleman is suffering from ho~f ln mouth disease. MR. WARREN: Two hooves in one mouth. The hen. MR.

NEARY: And what he was doing today, he was trying to remedy and trying to correct and rectify the damage that he had done and I am sure that his colleagues must have sailed aboard of him yesterday when he went out of the House and his new­ born colleague probably trying to prop him up, the expert on offshore oil and gas who has all the answers and a policy of his own, tried to prop him up. But, Mr. Chairman, ·what is unfolding in the two days of debate that we are having on this matter,and it should be trashed out thoroughly, laid on the Table of the House so that the members can see it.

The people of Newfoundland will see it if we can ever get the message to filter through to the eyes and ears of the people of this Province. If we can get that message to filter through surely they can see the weaknesses in the government's argument. And if they can see it the £er~g of Newfoundland will then

. ., J\pril 25, 1980 Tape No. 1959 SD - 3 MR. S • NEARY: see it - the weaknesses. And the number one weakne .ss in this, Mr. Chairman, and we heard it again today, the Ministe:r of Finance (Dr. J. Collins), a senior minister in the adainistration, with his buttoned-down mind, i.n his narrow· minded w~ sto .od up and said, "What is the Opposition's position on offshore?" ~ou would not know but we were the gove~nt. Have they forgotten that they are the government, they are governing this Province? The real question - MR. WARREN: They do not act like it. MR. s.

NEARY: - the red herring he is trying . to create to hide the real question is, what is the government's position, what option - we are asking the government now for twenty-four hours - what option are they going to use to eonfib!l the offshore r:i.ghts because obviously they are uncertain about it. If they felt in their heart .s that they own it, as they obviously do 1 they would proceed and ignore everybody: in the world; ignore the Q:>vernment of canada, ignore the Opposition, ignore the oil companies, iqno:i::e everybody if they are so sure. But the word is coming through to me, ~!r.

Chairman, that they are not sure, they are uncertain, they are aslc:ing the Government of Canada - MR. WARREN: AN. HON. MEMBER: MR. S • NEARY: They have not got a clue. To make the decision. - to make the decision for them, that is what they are up to and they are caiiiJuflaging the issue 28 00

April 25, 1980 MR. S. NEARY: tion's policy?' is? MR. L. THOMS: Tape No. 1060 ow - 1 by saying, 'What is the Opposi­ What difference does it make what our policy You will soon want to know what the United Church policy is. MR. S. NEARY: Yes, you will soon want to know what our policy is on marijuana; what is our policy on mari­ juana1 what is our policy on the fishery, what is our policy on this, what is our policy on drinking, alcoholism! MR.L. THOMS: down a Budget. MR. S.

NEARY: Maybe they will get us to bring I mean if that is what they want 1 why do they not just remove themselves from office and let us run the affairs of this Province. It is a phony argument, the myth, the fraud has been exploded and they are over there now trying to weasle their way out of it. MR. G. FLIGHT: of gas over there anyway. MR. S. NEARY: Oil and gas. There is a lot We have been hearing so much about oil and gas, the gas, I am afraid,is on that side of the House, there may be oil on the Grand Banks but the gas is over there. And then we heard the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) get up and do some fa?CY figure skating on thin ice regarding the government's hiring ' policy.And I say to the minister right now, and he cannot deny it and he cannot contradict it, that unless your name is on that list there is no job. I called the manager of Canada Manpower a few days ago and I said, 'Do you do any hiring for the offshore?' He said, 'No, we are not allowed. We cannot even refer they said, 'because you cannot get a job offshore unless your name is on the government list. Unless your name is on the government list you cannot get a job.

The same way with these people who came to see me who had jobs 2801

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1060 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: secured, who went to the com- panies and got their jobs and then when they reported for work they were told, 'I am sorry, boy, look you have the qualifica- tions,I wanted you in the worst kind of a way because you are qualified, but I am sorry I cannot hire you because we have bee-n informed by the Department of Labour and Manpower that your name is not on the lis.t. And can you blame these people for feeling that they were discriminated against on political grounds because they happened to be Liberals,by the way. MR. J. DINN: Table it, table it. MR. S.

NEARY: I w~ll table the hon. gentle- man before I am finished with him with that kind of a Musso- lini policy, the anti-Labour Minister. Here we are in a Province with a minister who is anti-labour and then he says, 'Oh, Labrador Linerboard he told us, 'is going to employ a lot of people'. Well, how many times did we hear from the representatives of the telephone company? How many tirnes did we hear Labrador linerboard is in the wrong place?

It is impractical, unrealistic, it will never work it is in the wrong plac~.And now all of a sudden it is the Saviour f it becomes, the Saviour of the unemployed in this Province. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time has expired. The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I did not have an opportunity when I rose last time to finish answering all the points that were raised.But one of the points I was trying to get through is that the

interpretation I have of the remarks made opposite, in particular by the member for Grand Bank (!!r. Thoms), was that he finds repugnant our policy of ensuring that Newfoundlanders have first shot at employment offshore. 280{

April 25, 1980 Tape No. 1060 DW - 3 DR. J. COLLINS: Now1 that is the first point~ And I make that point in trying to decipher what the policy opposite is in terms of tne offshore. Because as the bon. member who just sat do"wn said, 'We are not going to say it, we are not going to reveal it, we are going to keep. it secret.' He is implying that he has one but, I mean, one can only say that if they do not reveal it you have to wonder if they have one. But nevertheless,one has to try to see 1 if they have one from the remarks they made, what would that be?

And that is the first point in their policy, that they would be against our local preference first. In other words, say in terms of the creditors, shall we say, for Come by Chance, they do not want local preference put in there. Just that sort of example. in their policy. No~ that is the first . point Now, the second point of their policy is that they would wish to - MR. L. STIRLING: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. Order, please! A point of order, the hon. member It is one thing for the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) .to make a mistake and interpret and misinterpret something, but then the member again brought up a point of order and Your Honour is going to check Hansard,but he has now brought in a completely extraneous piece of material which is absolutely 2803

April 25,1980 !~. STIRLING: Tape No. 1061 AH-1 a distortion by saying that this party does not support the position of supporting the creditors on Come By Chance. That is an absolute dist.ortion of the worst order. SOME HON.MEMBER: MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : DR. COLLINS: HR. CHAIR!-!AN: DR. COLLINS: Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, oh! .The big lie does not work any more. Mr. Chairman. The han. Minister of Finance. In bringing that in I was making the point - Order, please! I am speaking to the point of order, Mr. The han.

Minister of Finance is speaking to the point of order and I would ask all han. members to be quite. The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: I brought in that point to illustrate what the han. member for Grand Bank (Mr.Thoms) said when he says, "I am against the policy, the implication of loca.l preference. "This is what he said in speaking a little earlier. I am against the whole policy of local preference and this >ms an example that one has to arrive at if you are against the policy of local preference. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order.

I would rule that in this particular case,since it does- it is in line with the first point of order that was raised by the han. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) so I would rule at this particular time that the han. member for Bonavista North (Mr, Stirling) who raised this 9oint of order has no point of order but he rose on a point of clarification of remarks that were attributed to his party. MR. STIRLING: A point of orivileae. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. member for Bonavista North on a point of privilege. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr . Chairman,~n reflection it was not simply a point of order.

What the Minister of Finance has done (Dr. Collins) and persisted in doing in explaining th