Manitoba Hansard — 7 March 1973 (Sitting 15, 29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-15

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o' clock, Wednesday, March 7, 1973 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker . INTRO DUC TION OF GUESTS 343 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to the gallery where we have 50 students of Grades 5 to 9 standing of the Walter White School . These students are under the direction of Messrs . Borden Ha snik and Frank Lodawyks . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Mem ber for Gimli . We also have 45 students of Grade 11 standing of the Riverton School . These .students are under the directio n of Mr.

Frank Gus taw and Mrs . Luprypa . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourab le Member for St. George . On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legis lative Assembly I welcome you here today. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR . HARRY SHA FRANSKY (Radis son) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to pres ent the petition of Mennonite Hospital Society Concordia praying for the passing of

an Act to ame nd

an Act to incorporate Mennonite Ho spital Society Concord ia . MR . SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions ; Presenting Re ports by Standing and Special Committe es; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Repor ts. The Honourable Minister of Agricultu re. MINIS TERIAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF RE PORTS HON . SAMU EL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet) : Mr . Speaker , I wish to table the Annual Report of the Department of Agriculture for the year ending Ma rch 1972 and the Annual Report of the Reso urc e Conser vation Co mmi ssion for the year ended March 31, 1972 . MR.

SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Minister of Labour . HON . RUSSE LL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transco na): Mr. Speaker , I beg to present the report of the Departm ent of Labour for the year 1972 , and I may say there are mime ographed copies for the members which will be distri buted but we haven 't been able to receive the normal printed copies and they will be sent to members in due course . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General . HO N. A. H. MACKL ING , Q.C . (Attorney-General) (St . James): Mr .

Speaker, I wish to table the following reports pursuant to the Co ntrovert Elections Act, a report from the Co urt of Appeal and the Co urt of Queen's Bench -- they are nil reports; a report from the Provincial Auditor covering the Auditor 's Report; and the financial statements for the year ended March 31, 1972 of the Liquor Co ntrol Co mmission; and the 49th Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of the Liquor Co ntrol Co mmiss ion for the fiscal year January 1, 1972 to December 31, 1972 , and there are additional copie s. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourab le Minister of Tourism and Recreatio n . HON . LAURENT L.

DE SJARDINS (Minist er of Tourism, Recreation and Cul tural Affairs) (St . Bonifac e): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following report s; the Annual Report of the Ma nitoba Ce ntennial Ce ntre Co rporation , and Auditor 's Report for the year ended March 31, 1972; Manitoba Arts Co uncil Annual Report, the Audi tor 's Report for the year ending on that same date; and also the Seventh Annual Report of the Horse Racing Co mmi ss ion for this year; and I am enclosing ten copies of each report . I also have a statement to make , Mr. Speaker .

Ma nitoba's tourist industry enjoyed another boon year in 1972 when an estimat ed 3.5 million out-of-provinc e visitors came to the provin ce . This is an increase of about 225 , 000 over the number of tourist visitors re corded in 19 71. I would like you to know tl;!at an important part of this overall rise in the tourist figure comes from the increase in the number of direct entries over the internati onal boundary from the United State s. Acc ording to year -end figures for 1972 released recently by Statistics Canad a, about 1.1 million perso ns entered Manitoba from the south .

This re flects a 19 .4 percent increase over the 1971 fi gure for direct border entri es . Of this number about half were in the long term category -- that is, those who stayed one or more nights in the province -- up 20 .4 percent from 1971 . This is even more significant when the same

344 March 7, 1973 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF :ijEPORTS (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) •.... report indicated the non-resident visitor total for Canada showed a decline of 3. 6 percent in 1972 as compared to the previous year. There were also more non-resident vehicles coming into Manitoba from the south. Total traffic entries at U.S. border crossings into the province in 1972 were 378, 853 -- up 23.4 percent. The long term traffic entries totalled 161,470 -- up 22. 8 percent.

It is evident that Manitoba promotions in the U.S. tourist market, particularly in the near market areas of the American Midwest, are having a beneficial effect on our tourist industry. More Americans are choosing Manitoba as a vacation destination and more of them are staying longer. The remaining 2 .4 million non-resident visitors came mainly from other Canadian provinces. Tourist spending in Manitoba also reached a new peak. According to Canadian Govern ment formula, used for the first time in 1972, total tourist spending in Manitoba was estimated at about $192 million.

Of this figure roughly $48 million was spent here by American visitors and the balance, $144 million, came from other Canadian visitors and from Manitobans vacationing more than 25 miles from home in their own province. I wonder if the page boy could distribute these. The "Visit Friendly Manitoba" has taken on a new significance with the launching this week of a comprehensive new package tour program that offers a wide variety of Manitoba 's recreation spots and activities as attractive destinations for vacationers.

The program has been coordinated and developed by the Tourist Branch in response to recommendations from the travel industry and that pre-planned package tours are the kind of saleable attraction that will bring vacationers and tourists to Manitoba. In support of the program our department has published a 36-page 4-colour brochure containing an initial listing of 20 tour and vacation packages designed to appeal to a wide range of vacation er requirements.

The brochure offers all-purpose indoor and outdoor family vacation packages, year round and seasonable excursions, independent and guided tours and cruises, honeymoon and anniversary vacations, wilderness fishing and hunting, wildlife photography, golfing, etc., to list but a few of the options offered. For example, Lake Winnipeg cruises are included in season for weekends or a full five days; weekly tours to remote fishing and hunting resorts, rail tours to Churchill or air tours to Rankin Inlet, bus tours to various parts of Manitoba, some as far as Thompson.

There are hotel and sight-seeing packages of a year round variety for Winnipeg with optional sports and cultural attractions added. The tours are designed for the most part to originate from Winnipeg. A prepaid package would include accommodation and transportation and its cost would be according to the type of tour, method of transportation and length of stay involved. The assembly of the package tours and negotiation of contracts with the various participating tour facilities and transportation services has been carried out by the Manitoba Tourist Branch.

Thunderbird Travel Limited of Winnipeg has been designated as the central booking agency for the package tour plan and will be responsible for future pro motion of the program. All recognized travel agents are commissionable on vacation packages they sell to their customers based on the plan. The first printing of 150, OOO copies of the brochure is now being distributed to travel agents and transportation companies in Canada, United States and Europe, and the Canadian Government travel offices around the world. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Honourable Minister on behalf of our party for his announcement this afternoon indicating the various tours that are going to be arranged for visitors to our great province. I find this is most interesting. If my memory serves me correctly we discussed this matter at some length in a debate of the Minister's Estimates last year that these type of tours would create a lot of interest to thos e people who choose to visit our great province. I would also, Mr.

Speaker, indicate that our policy in matters such as this would be to see that part of the "Make Work Programs" of this government for our unemployed people would be in the tourist industry to help encourage more permanent jobs and assist this great growth that we are indicating or finding again today in the tourist attraction of our province. It's most encouraging and I welcome the amiouncement by the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. (Izzy) ASPER (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party also welcoi:nes

r March 7, 1973 345 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TAB LING OF RE PORTS (MR . ASPER cont'd) ••••• the improvem ent in the figures and the increase over last year . I' m sure that the Minister will agree with me when I say that we have still a long way to go and that Manitoba has yet to achieve its national share of the tourism potential , and that in the last year or so that he has introduced some improvement to the program, Mr.

Speaker , it's still our position and I' m sure his too, and the Minister of Finance' s position , that one of the most exciting, one of the most tantalizing tax revenue prospects for the Province of Manitoba is the continued expansion of the tourist potential. I believe the Minister 's depart ment issued figures recently indicating that as much as 40 percent of the tourist dollar winds up directly or indirectly as tax revenue through income tax, sales tax and so on, so that obviously it 's an area of endeavour and promotion that we would sU:pport the continued expansion of.

As well we regret, though, that the government Tourist Promotion Divisio n has not yet helped us to achieve what the Royal Commission Report of over four years ago said we could look forward to in Manitoba . I' m referring to the report that indicated that we had a poten tial of approximately $400 million of tourists' spending -- we've only reach $1 92 million . We'd like more information and we hope, Mr .

Speaker , that in the repo rt or in the Estimates of his departme nt we'll be able to find out just how much of the 150 million-odd spending referred to in his statement was by Ca nadians outside of Manitobans and how much was really Manitobans just travelling around the province. We again , Mr . Speaker , encourage the Minister in his job.

We know it's a difficult job; we would encourage the government to make greater sums available to him for the attain ing of the objectives that the TED Co mmission set out and I would draw to his attention that only this morning, or yesterday rather, the Province of Ontario, which already has a massive tourist industry, announced a, I believe , 50 million or 50 percent increase -- I' rp not sure which -- but a major 50 percent increase in tourist promotion spending which enables the Minister of that province to produce some staggeringly impressive results and we would wish the Minister well in that kind of endeavour in Manitoba .

MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works . HON . RUS SELL DOERN (M inister of Public Works) (Elmwood): Mr . Speaker , I have a statement unless the Honourable Me mber for Rhineland was wis hing to comment on the previous one . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please . No one else except recognized parties may comment on a Minister's statement . The Honourable Minister of Public Works . MR . DO ERN: Mr . Speaker, I would like to make a statement concerning the burning issue of the location of the washroom in Memorial Park. MR . SPEAKER: Order , please .

Does the Honourable Minister have a written state ment for the members of the House ? MR . DOERN: I' m sorry , Mr . Speaker , I do not. MR . SPEAKER: Our rules call for it as the Honourable Minister is aware . Shall we proceed by leave ? (Agreed) Very well. MR . DOERN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. It is obvious that some comment is necessary with regard to the regrettable situation which has arisen as a result of this governme nt's desire to install washroom facilities in the park adjacent to the Legislature , comm only referred to as Memorial Park .

Construction of this facility was proceede d wi th by the govern ment in good faith on the as sumption, perhaps prematu re, that the des irability of this facility was generally acknowledged by all levels of government. These assu mptions have perhaps been aborted by misunderstandings which have arisen between various representatives of the municipal and provincial governments . It should be made plain that the Province of Manitoba was amongst the first, and per haps "the" first government to wi llingly submit itself to municipal zoning in the City of Winnipeg Act .

To our knowledge none of the City of Winnipeg's zoning res trictions have been violated . It should also be noted that aithough the province does not wish to become engaged in discussions as to the legality of the position of either the city or the province, the legal position is certainly not one which the province admits any sensitivity to insofar as its actions are concerned . The Co mmittee on Environment informed us today that they have not approved the application of Robisko Construction Limited, our contractors, for permission to construct

346 March 7, 1973 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS (MR. DOERN cont'd) •.•.. washroom facilities in Memorial Park. The Committee further "requests the Provincial Government to locate this facility in the immediate vicinity but not in Memorial Park." Consequently 1 have issued instructions to my department to inform the contractors that after their normal working day today that he is to cease construction until such time as he is notified.

The Department of Public Works proceeded with the project after discussing the matter with Environment Committee Chairman Abe Yanofsky and Councillors of Midland Community Committee. On Monday February 19th, Chairman Yanofsky indicated to us that if there were no objections from Midland Community Committee Councillors, Environment Committee would immediately give approval to such a routine matter. The councillors were informally can vassed and informed the Department of Public Works and Mr. Yanofsky that there was no fundamental objection.

The following day we issued instructions to the contractor to commence construction, which he did. On Wednesday, February 21st, a councillor or councillors objected to the location and the matter was referred back to Environment Committee for further discussion. A week later on March 5th, Environment Committee met and due to objections by some Legionaires denied the province a building permit. I might point out for the edification of honourable members that today, after the Session, the Honourable H. R.

Pawley and myself will meet with representatives of the Canadian Legion to discuss their objections, and on Friday, March 9th at 11:00 a.m. members of the Environment Committee will meet with the Honourable Ben Hanuschak and I to discuss their objections to the location of the washroom as well. I think it is essential that the various levels of government have a good working relationship and it is in that interest that we meet with members of the Environment Committee in an attempt to iron out the problems.

Both members of the Midland Community Committee and members of the Environment Committee recognize the need for washroom facilities for users of the park. At issue is the location. Since some members of the Legion have objected to the location we are also prepared to meet with them to discuss their objections and present our plans. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, the Minister has retreated from the position that he took initially in this particular case.

He retreated in the face of the outflanking movement that was created by the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg and members of the Environmental Committee, · unlike my friend the Minister of Mines and Resources, who proceeds unabated with any plans that he originally starts. The Minister may use this opportunity when he has created this hiatus to perhaps hold public hearings to determine the level at which it may be desirable to flood Memorial Park, and failing that, failing any agreement on what may happen in Memorial Park in that instance, perhaps it might be possible to build a monorail to the nearest biffy.

The Minister now has created an opportunity for himself to take several alternatives that are open to him, and I hope that his next step wi ll be such as to note creat e the problem that he created for himself in this instance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it's a regrettable matter in this House that the most powerful elected representative of the City of Greater Winnipeg had to come into this House • . . -- (Interjections) -- My honourable friends can hardly wait. Perhaps later on we'd care to talk about this.

But I say, Mr. Speaker, that it's a sorry state of affairs in this Legislature when the Mayor of this City has to take the action that he did in order to be heard, in order to be able to have the Minister to pull in his horns. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, it certainly is a disgrace. When a Minister of the Crown can break the law and then stand up and back track and get away with it, it's a disgrace. -- (Interjections) -- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Will the Honourable First Minister state his matter of privilege. POINT OF PRIVILEGE MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the point of privilege is that the Member for Portage la Prairie has just said that the Minister can break the law. When he says that with such confidence, is he referring to

Section 654 or is he referring to

Section 607 of the City of Winnipeg Act? There is no admission whatsoever that any law has been broken, and

' March 7, 1973 347 MINISTERIAL STATEME! <lTS AND TABLING OF REP ORTS (MR . SCHREYER cont'd) •.••. therefore the honourable member should wi thdraw that state ment unless he is acting in the role of a judge here. -- (Interjections) -- MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . , MR . G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr . Speaker, the Premier has given his opinion, and we appreciate his opinion, but in the opinion of many in this House and many outside, the Minister has broken the law .

Now perhaps if the Minister will be able to respond again, I would like to know who is going to pay the extra costs caused by his hasty action. If there is going to be extra costs attached to this and it was a mistake within the department, are the taxpayers going to pay that bill ? Obviously, my friends say opposite, obviously the taxpayers are going to pay the bill. But all I can say .•. MR . SPEAKER: Order please . MR . JOHNSTON: •.• Mr .

Speaker, is that I hope the Minister has learned a lesson, and I hope that when he speaks to the Veterans, whenever it is during the week, that he will not only listen to them but he will take their advice and keep that objectionable thing off Memorial Park. MR . SPEAKER: Any other ministerial statements or tabling of reports ? Order please. Order please. The order of business now calls for ministerial statements, tabling of reports . Notices of motions . The Honourable House ·Leader. TABLING OF RE PORTS (c ont'

d) HON . SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C . (M inister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr . Speaker, excuse me, I' d like to table a Return to an Order of the House No . 33 dated May 11, 1972 on the motion of the Honourable the Member for Charles wood . Mr . Speaker, just while I'm on my feet, I have asked periodically ·about reports from the Federal-Provincial Study Board, and I believe that I have indicated that I did not receive reports from that Board. I' d like to now say, Mr.

Speaker, that I did receive the report for the termination of 1972 yesterday, that I intend to file it in the House, I am merely awaiting confirmation by the other partner to the Study Board, the Honourable Minister of Fisheries. At the same time, Mr . Speaker, I will admit that I think I advised the House that I had not received previous reports from the Study Board . There was a report which I had forgotten about, which was received for the period ending December 31, 19 71. It was very preliminary in nature, Mr . Speaker; there was no intention to mislead the House; I had forgotten that I had received it .

It too will be tabled with the concurrence of my federal counterpart on the Study Board , and I regret any inconvenience that I would have caused any body by the inadvertent statement, Mr . Speaker, that I thought I had not received a previous report. MR . SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills . The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. INTRODUCTIO N OF BILLS HON . HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk) introduced Bill No. 17,

an Act to amend The Department of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs Act . MR . EDWARD McGILL (B randon West) introduced Bill No . 12 ,

an Act to amend the Brandon Charter. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (L eader of the Opposition) (River Heights): Mr . Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. It relates to a question arising out of the Estimates that were tabled last night. I wonder if he can indicate to the House whether there will be any additional unconditional grants or additional amounts be given to the City of Winnipeg or other municipalities in Manitoba this year other than in the Estimates. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, that is a matter of policy to be determined. My honourable friend will appreciate the fact that during the course of preparation on the

348 March 7, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. SCHREYE R cont'd) .••.• Estimates as presented last night, that the federal budget was brought down, we received a notification of additional revenues to be made available to Manitoba by transfer from federal source, and accordingly we do have to make some adjust ments. We have not completed that exercise yet; we hope to be in a position to report to the House relatively soon. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder then if the First Minister can indicate whether this will be done by supplementary Estimates to be presented to the House. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, yes.

By definition the Estimates that will have to be brought forward as a result of revisions due to the changes in the federal budget will be brought here by way of supplementary Estimates. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, then on the basis of the answer given by the First Minister, the municipalities and the City of Winnipeg can assume that there will be more money avail able from the province. MR. SCHREYER: That would be a correct assumption. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Mines Minister in connection with the contract that was referred to as being terminated yesterday in the question period. Did the government simply not exercise an option to renew, or did they in effect terminate a two year contract and in effect fire the research group. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I haven't read the material. My understanding is that the contract provided for two phases, with the first phase being completed on March 30, 1973 giving us an option to take the second phase, which we didn't take.

That's my understanding but I haven't read the document. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister then examine the document and answer the question after he has examined the document? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the answer that I gave is as I understand it at the present time. May I say that if there are different

interpretations that can be read by any person with respect to it, it will not change the action of the government with respect to doing this work in House. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister is, did the Minister decide to cancel because he became aware that the studies that were being conducted were leading the researchers, particularly Dr. Newbury .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is repetitive even though it has been altered slightly. The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I regret that innuendo was left on the floor without an answer being permitted. I indicated in the House that I had no knowledge whatsoever of what reports were coming, I have no knowledge whatsoever, and as a matter of fact my only verbal communications with the Study director indicate nothing untoward. The sole reasons for dealing with the matter as it was dealt with were given to the House; there were no other reasons. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct three questions to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

Could the Minister inform me and my constituents when the next phase of The Pas special area agreement will be signed ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. RON McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs) (The Pas): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARROW: Well, could the Minister tell me what's the matter? MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I could answer that question very simply. There is some hold-up or delay on the part of the Federal Government. The negotiations between the provincial officials and the federal officials have been going on for over a year now.

My understanding is that an agreement was reached at the civil service level last fall, early in the fall, and the normal procedure would be for the Federal Government then to pass the agreement to its Treasury Board and through Cabinet and then it would come to the Provincial Government to go through our Cabinet. My understanding is the agreement has gone through the Treasury Board in Ottawa; I am not aware if it has passed through Cabinet in Ottawa. To ensure that there was no delay on the part of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, the Manitoba Cabinet

!---- ------- -- March 7, 1973 349 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (M:R. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• passed the agreement a number of weeks ago and are holding it now waiting on the Federal Government decision. So, Mr. Speaker, we 're just waiting at this point on the Federal Government. MR. BARR.OW: Will the agreement provide for assistance to the community of Cranberry Portage to obtain a water system? MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the nature of the agreement is that the provincial minister responsible and the federal minister responsible are not allowed to aµnounce any matters contained within the agreement until there's a joint annotmcement. However, I could assure the Member for Flin Flon that his constituents in Cranberry Portage will not be forgotten. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. I wonder if he will undertake to see that his Cabinet Miulsters are made accessible to the members of his caucus. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I don't understand the question, so perhaps my honourable friend could rephrase it. -- (Interjection) -- Mr. Speaker, I thought that my honourable friend would do the courtesy of malting the question intelligible. MR. PAULLEY: Oh, he can't ••. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, if my honourable friend is not going to make the question intelligible, then I will not dignify it with an answer. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I will put the question again. Will the First Minister undertake to make the members of his Cabinet accessible to the members of his caucus. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what my honourable friend is referring to, but I do know that a former Conservative Leader, John Diefenbaker, was stabbed in the back by his own caucus, so if my honourable friend is referring to that -- (Interjection) - MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General. In view of the findings of Chief Justice Tritschler, how long is the government going to defer clarifying its position on proceeding with criminal charges against Kasser and Reiser? MR. MACKI.JNG: I'm not aware, Mr.

Speaker, of any findings of Chief Justice Tritschler, but I have made it clear and Crown counsel in court made it clear that proceedings will be brought against certain named individuals, namely Messrs. Kasser and Reiser and others, in accordance with the advice of counsel and in accordance with the administration of justice with which I am charged and this government is charged, and it is not a matter for the prosecution by the courts, and I want to make it very clear that I don't think that further fishing expeditions on the part of the Opposition is in the interest of the administration of justice. MR.

CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General has just made reference to ... MR. SPEAKER: Will the honourable member ask a question? MR. CRAIK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It's a supplementary question with regards to his counsel which he has made several references to. Was it not his counsel who yesterday said in court that the evidence was in upon which to proceed? MR. MACKI.JNG: I'm not going to make any further comment about what proceeded in court. The honourable member can read about it. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question to direct to the Attorney-General.

Can he advise how many meetings were held by one or more members of the Inquiry Commis sion and one or more members of the present Cabinet in private at other than a public hearing? MR. MACKLING: The honourable member is concerned to try and cast a smear on the Commission of Inquiry or others and I'm not about to respond to his smear tactics. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, my question is in reference to a statement made by the Attorney-General that meetings had been held. My question today is simply to ask him to advise the House when the meetings were held that were referred to by him in his answer yesterday.

MR., MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, when the Commission of Inquiry reports, all of the details of all and any procedural meetings that were necessary will be divulged, and I don't intend to engage my honourable friend in a worthless exercise at this time. MR. CRAIK: One further question. Why did neither the government nor the

350 March 7, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ••••• Commission voluntarily disclose that private discussions did take place between the government and certain members of the Commission? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, response is made to a question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Attorney-General. -- (Interjection) -- Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, if you could restrain the braying of the Whip of the NDP we could get through the question period.

My question to the Attorney-General is: how many others which he has just referred to -- and I'm certainly not seeking the names - how many others other than Reiser and Kasser are about to have proceedings taken against them? MR. MAC KLING: The Crown never advertises its shopping list for prosecutions and will not do so at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Honourable the Attorney General.

With respect to the meetings which were indicated did take place between one or more members of the CFI Inquiry Commission and the government members, can he tell the House if there was a minute kept of any of the private meetings between one or more members of the Inquiry Commission and one or more members of the government? MR. MAC KLING: Mr. Speaker, that question has already been answered. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the Minister indicate when the information or the proceedings of such meetings will be made public as are other affairs of the Commission? MR.

SPEAKER: The question has been answered. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General. Can he advise who Mr. Scott Wright represents before the Commission of Inquiry? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I would have thought the honourable member was a resident in Winnipeg and in Manitoba during the course of hearings and read the newspapers from time to time and was aware of the answer to the question he asks. POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable Member for Morris state his point of order. MR.

JORGENSON: Yes, Sir, you have frequently cautioned members of this side of the House not to preface their questions with statements which are not to the point. I think the same applies to the answers that are given. If the Minister does not have an answer he knows his alternative, but to permit him to make statements such as he has been making in reply to the questions that have been asked him is a violation of our rules, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister on the same point of order. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, speaking to the point of order raised by my honourable friend the Member for Morris, while I'm not one who has ever pretended to be expert on the rules nevertheless I have sat in a legislative body about as long as my honourable friend, and in two different parliamentary bodies at that. My honourable friend knows very well that when putting questions before Orders of the Day that the questions must be put in the interrogative without preface and without being argumentative.

The nature of the reply, the answers, if my honourable friend will just cast his mind back to the years when he spent ••• A MEMBER: What mind? MR. SCHREYER: ••• over in parliament, he will know whether the format was correct or not, used by my colleague the Attorney-General. MR. PAULLEY: It's only half there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Let us proceed with the Oral Question Period. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: I should like to direct my question to the Attorney-General. On a couple of occasions he said meetings were held in the presence of solicitor. I wonder if he'd care to name that solicitor. MR. MACKLING: The Attorney-General's Department has a number of solicitors and we engaged counsel, and I'm not about to indicate which counsel were at what meetings and all

March 7, 1973 351 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR . MACKLING cont'd) .•••• of that will be reported when the Co mmis sion of Inquiry makes its report. MR . JORGENSON: A further question -- I wonder if the Attorney-General would advise the House whether it was a solicitor from the Attorney-General's Department or someone from outside . MR . MAC KLING: The Commission, Mr . Speaker, the Commis sion of Inquiry will be making a report and all of the information that is necessary about Co mmissi on meetings and the presence of counsel will be recorded. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR .

STEVE PATRICK (As siniboia): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. In view of his answer to a question last sess ion, where he said he would meet with the people of a Unicity Bank, has he met with the directors of Unicity Bank -- Unity, Bank, to see if it can be located in Manitoba ? Unity Bank. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON . LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce) (Brandon East) : Mr . Speaker, I will take the question as notice. I don't recall the exact statement or commit ment that I made. MR . PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker , a supplementary. I am sure that the Minister must remember if he's met with the directors of Unity Bank or not . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel . MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question to the Attorney-General. Can he advise whether Mr . Scott Wright played a

part in screening the documents pertaining to the present government's participation with the CF1 project before forwarding them to the Inquiry Commission? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR . MAC KLING: Mr. Speaker, I want to put on the record the honourable member continues to fish.

All of this will be disclosed by the Commission of Inquiry report, but I want to indicate to him, I want to indicate to him that counsel for the Crown communicated immediately after the appointment of the Commission of Inquiry and invited them to see all documentation that was in any one of the files that we had in respect to this matter, complete and full disclosure was given to the Commission of Inquiry. MR . CRAIK: Yes, Mr . Speaker. I have a further question to the Attorney-General. Since Mr .

Frank Meighan has been denied access to any government documents that have been filed with the Commission, when will these be given an opportunity for inspection , the docu ments that have been withheld as well ? MR . MAC KLING: Mr . Speaker, the Commission of Inquiry conducts the Commission, and I don't . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, the Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Mines Minister . Was the decision that he took to not renew, as he would say, the contract of Dr. Newbury .•• ? MR . SPEAKER: Order. I believe that question has been repeated before . MR .

ASPER: Mr. Speaker, on the point you're making the Minister answered a ques tion that I had not asked. He presumed the question • • • MR . SPEAKER: Order please . I will not have a debate with the Chair . The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. I realize that the Premier is the Minister in charge of dominion -provincial relations and, of course, the Minister of Finance.

In view of the many heavy responsibilities likely to come up this month with the Dominion- Provincial Relations Conference, does the Premier expect to appoint a separate Mi�ister of Finance? MR . SCHREYER: Well , Mr. Speaker, of course I look forward to the day when that will be possible and I continue to hope that it will be possible relatively soon, but in the mean time I continue to carry this .burden of office. It is one which I cannot complain about since all my colleagues and I have asked for it in a sense. MR . BARKMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Premier tell us when he intends to bring down his budget ?

352 March 7, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SCHREY ER: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is hoped that the budget can be brought in soon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR . J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr . Speaker , I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture . Mr. Speaker, the farmers from Manitoba are busy cleaning and preparing seeds for spring planting. Is the Minister of Agriculture charging the farmers a cent a bushel for the wheat seeds and the cleanout of this grain being sold to feed mills ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker , I don't know what the position of the Commission is with respect to by -products of grain that is cleaned through the various seed cleaning plants and subsequently sold, but I can take that question as notice and inform my honourable friend at a later date . While I' m on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer a question put to me the other day by the Member for Rhineland and that is , what penalties are farmers going to be suffering under the new protein grading system, that is the new grading system for wheat, and presumably it's an anticipation of decisions yet to be made and therefore, Mr.

Speaker, it's hypothetical at this stage. We are watching the situation to determine whether or not the government at the provincial level should make some determination with respect to that poli cy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . Oh, sorry. Did theHonourable Member for Arthur have a supplementary? MR . WATT: Well I had a supplementary, or first question in regard to the question that's just been asked . Could I ask the Minister if the Department or his Department have been studying -- what procedure they have taken in the United States in regard to protein grading? MR.

USKIW: I didn't quite get the question, Mr. Speaker. I think it has to do with what systems are applied in the U.s. I' m not aware of it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the First Minister, and ask him if all of the documents which pertain to the present government's involvement in Churchill Forest Industries have been forwarded to the Commission. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, all of the documents that are relevant have been made available to the Commission .

It is my understanding that the Commission did follow the pro cedure of having its staff and counsel come to this building in order to make a full and system atic review and analysis of all relevant documentation, and accordingly those documents were taken. I might add also that I did send letters of request to two predecessor premiers asking them for concurrence in the rather extraordinary step of making all cabinet documents avail able, and received a reply which was forwarded to the Co mmission . MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker, a further question to the First Minister.

Would he be prepared t<i say who made the determination as to which were relevant documents? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the Commission of Inquiry, and I quote more specific ally the Commissioners themselves on their own judgment and on the advice of the Commis sion counsel . It is my very distinct impression, Sir, that the Chief Justice, E. Rhodes Smith, the chairman of the Commission, is satisfied that all rel evant documentation is either in their possession or available and bas been reviewed and seen by them . MR. JORGENSON: I wonder if the First Minister could advise whether or not Mr.

Scott Wright was present at the first perusing of the documents. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I could not say wi th finality that be was or was not . It's my impression that the Commissioners themselves and their counsel made the judgment and decisions as to documents required by the Commission, and in any case the reference to Scott Wright, Queen's Counsel, is one which -- I' m not sure what my honourable friend is trying to get at, but I feel quite comfortab le whatever my honourable friend is trying to get at. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr .

Speaker, the question is to the Mines Minister. Is it correct that the second phase of the Nelson-churchill River study that he has announced will be taken over by his own department ? Is it true that the second phase is the part which was designed to give an independent estimate of the environmental damage that the project would cause ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources.

r-- ----- -- - -- March 7, 1973 353 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. GREEN: The entire study which was reported to the members of this House and funds for which were voted by members of this House for the last two years, had the purpose of dealing with the two projects, Lake Wim1ipeg regulation, the Churchill River diversion, and in as broad a generality as I can put it, were designed to examine how the projects could be handled so as to maximize their benefits and minimize their problems insofar as problems are created by any change in the ecology.

Phase I and Phase II of the study -- I don't know the terms of reference offhand but I'm saying that that was the purpose of the total study and certainly changes in ecological matters would be part of the study but within that context, Mr. Speaker. MR. ASPER: . . . Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister. Will the now estimate of environ mental damage arising from this project be in effect made, not by the independent contractor, but by the very department that's creating the damage? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there isn't a single person, whether I've had arguments with them or not, whether it's been Mr. Booy, or Mr.

Newbury, whether it's any person on this staff during the four years of office, who will have made a charge that I have told him what should be his judgment. The staff people in my department are as independent, or more so, than the staff people who happen to be working for the University.

They are giving me their professional opinion, they are advised to give me their professional opinion, they are advised not to base that professional opinion on any political favour or fear, and that is what we have expected from all people whether they have been working within the staff or whether they have been working without the staff, and it's significant, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Newbury and Mr.

Booy, both of whom were working as members of the Water Commission, never ever breathed a word of charge that while they were on the Commission that they were encouraged, induced, or in any other way expected to say things to favour the administration. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, they were told specifically that we want their independent professional judgment without fear or favour as to how that could affect this government politically, and they have done that, Mr. Speaker, and that is exactly what our own staff people are told.

I have every confidence in the professional integrity of the staff who works for the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. Mr. Speaker, they are as pure or purer a staff who are responsible to nobody and who don't have any consequence to fulfill the recomme ndations that they make. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. A supplementary. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR.

ASPER: Did the fact that internal studies in the Minister's department have an aura of confidentiality about them, influence or cause the decision to take the study back into the department where it could be kept confidential? MR. GREEN: I have indicated, Mr. Speaker, that there was a problem between the government and the independent contractor that my honourable friend is referring to, as to trying to separate their responsibilities to the project, that is the contract, and their willingness and freedom to engage in an attack of the project, that that was a problem, and we felt, Mr.

Speaker, that there would be no constraints whatsoever and that they needn't have a problem in their own mind and that there need be no question of professional ethics because now, Mr. Speaker, without any constraint at all they can attack the project until Hell freezes over and they have no problem. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is tantamount to the following situation; I really don't see what the fuss is about. The International Nickel Company hires McGill University to do a study on mineral resources, and during the course of the study Mr.

Kierans says that the International Nickel should be expropriated and taken over by the government and taxed out of existence, and Mr. Kier ans' contract terminates at the end of March 30; and the honourable member is suggesting that International Nickel would be doing a terrible thing interfering with the aca demic freedom of Mr. Kierans unless they renew his contract. No, Mr. Speaker, we expect no different treatment from Underwood McLellan, from the University of Manitoba, from any other consultants that we have hired, than would be afforded to private enterprise.

The public is asking for exactly the same . . . MR. SPEAKER: I believe the Honourable Minister has made his point. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, a ffoal supplementary.

354 March 7, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR . SPEAKER: The honourable member has had two supplementaries on the same question. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister and it arises out of the statements of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and the fact that tomorrow I gather we'll be dealing with the Estimates of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resourc es .

First in view of the fact that a precedent bas been set with the Kierans Report being tabled · in the House , I wonder if the First Minister would undertake to table the Planning and Priorities Analysis of the policies of the Department of Mines, Natural Resources and Environmental Management and I wonder if he'd undertake to table that so that we could deal with that when we deal with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources . · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minist er . MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, the Honourab1e the Leader of the Opposition can't have it both wa ys .

If he is suggesting that he would have wanted to object to the tabling of the Kierans Report he should have indicated so . I believed, I sincerely believed at the time of the tabling of the report that we were making available information to honourable members that they would find whether they agreed with it or not, that they would find informative and interesting, and accordingly it was tabled. No w my honourable friend is asking for internal working documents and, Mr .

Speaker , a review of Hansards of the last fourteen years will show the attitude of the previous Conserv ative administration when it came to the tabling of reports, let alone internal documents . I can remember ad nauseum the former Attorney-General of this province making the point , correctly, under the rules that interdepartmental memorandums and working papers, docu ments , etc ., were not matters subject to being tabled in this House .

Now if my hono urable friend the Leader of the Opposition suggests that the procedure that has been followed for many years is one which is to be -- is repugnant and should be repudiated, let him say so clearly and we may just do that, but let him repudiate his past practices first . MR . SPIVAK: Mr . Speaker, I take it that the answer from the First Minister is no, he's not prepared to table the Planning and Priorities . • • MR . SPEAKER: The honourable member ask a question ? MR . SPIVAK: Yes, well, I would like to get the same

preamble that the First Mi nister undertook with his answer, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to be given the same rights . Mr. Speaker , my question then to the First Minister is, why in view of the planning and research capacity already existing in the department, why this analysis commi ssioned and done by Planning and · Prioriti es ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet is one that has existed I believe since 1967 or '68. I believe it certainly was established not later than 1968.

We found that with the existence of such a mechanism, which l:>y the way exists in other provinces such as Ontario for example, that if such an entity exists it had better be made use of, and made use of in a way that will be helpful in reviewing the policy and policy direction of any given department.

Acc ordingly the staff of the Planning and Priorities Co mmittee of Cabinet, staff members were assigned according to their varying background and training, et c., to make a systematic analysis and review of the major policy directions in the various departments, and to come forward with such proposals or recommend ations as they felt they could defend and justify to Cabinet in the ordinary course of policy decisio n-making. All in all, Mr . Speaker, and in short , it's a very normal process indeed. MR . SPEAKER: The HonotU"able Member for Rock Lake. MR . HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr .

Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. My question refers to the Veterinary Clinic at Cypress Rivel" and I wou �d like to ask the Minister could he infQrm the House as to whether the Commission has given a decision as to whether or not they're going to build in Cypress River. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricultu re. MR. USKIW: Mr . Speaker, I think I'll have to take that question as notice and answer my honourable friend at a later date. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to address my question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has his department, or is the government giving support to a proposal put forward by Mr . Runciman, President of United Grain Growers, the

March 7, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. FROESE cont'd) .•••• farm income security through a price compensation plan? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Speaker, we have not been involved. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. 355 MR. GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Will incorporated community clubs be able to make use of the loan money that is now being made available to municipalities under this new program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR.

PAWLEY: I would first like to thank the honourable member for providing me with notice of the question. The fact is that the Manitoba Special Municipal Loan and General Emergency Fund is available to provide loans to municipalities, and to that extent the loans would not be available to incorporated community cl ubs. The only way that an arena for instance would be able to obtain a loan would be if it in fact was part of the assets of the municipality. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Mines referring to the general subject of tabling of documents referred to by the First Minister. Since the Minister's Estimates are first on the list for examination, and since his responsi bilities include that of the operations of the MDC, would he now table the Annual Report of the MDC which he now has in his possession? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I will table the report before we get to our Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General.

In view of the sharp increase reported in juvenile crime, as reported in today's Tribune, is the Minister considering setting up some program to deal with it similar to the one he's set up for the dealing with the abuse of alcohol? MR. MACKLING: The short answer is yes, Mr.

Speaker; the Manitoba Police Commission has embarked on a wide range of activities and I'll be filing a report likely during the course of my Estimates' review which will indicate the concerns of the Police Commission in various areas which includes public relations and the relationships between police and others in the community, including young people. • . • • . Continued on next page.

356 March 7, 1973 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Osborne. MAT.TER Ol);, UR GENCY MR . IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Point Douglas that the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of public importance , namely that the recommendation of the Executive Policy Committee of the City of Winnipeg to contract out work now done by employees of the city may result in costs rising to $30 million and unemployment of hundreds of people , and that these results will effect the eco-. nomic well-being of the people of Manitoba and the fiscal policies of the Government of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

According to our rules I will now entertain five minutes by the parties to debate the issue of urgency, only the issue of urgency. The Honourable Mem ber for Osborne. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN : I would like to make clear the point that the government party will have an opportunity of dealing with this motion in the same way as any other party. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Osborne. A MEMBER: That's right, any member . . • any member can make it MR. SPEAKER: Ord er, please. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, the House Leader has risen on a point of order and notwithstanding the inane interjections of the Mi nister of Labour, I want to speak on the point of order as well. Government does have the opportunity to respond to the point of order and that opportunity's provided when the Member for Osborne speaks. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR . JORGENSON: I'm told now he 's not a member . • . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The Chair recognizes parties and members represent ing the leader or anyone else only when I'v e had notific ation, otherwise I recognize individuals first and then parties, and that's the precedence that shall take place today. The Honourable Member for Osborne. The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Yes , Mr.

Speaker, I apologize to you, Sir, for ris ing to the same point of order raised by both my colleague the House Leader and the Member for Morri s, but I would like to if it'.s possible, Sir, clear assurance that there will be an opportunity for myself, or someone designated from the Treasury Bench, to respond to whatever that motion is and to the comments made by the honourable member who is proposing it. MR. PAULLEY: That's c�rrect. That's in accordance . . • MR.

SPEAKER: That is what I indicated, that unless I am informed by a party that some one is representing it, then I have to assume that the individual is standing on his own feet and the party has the opportunity to explain its position. The Honourable Mem ber for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: I asked, Mr. Speaker, if we may have a copy of that motion. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member's entitled to a copy of the motion. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie on the same point of order. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Yes , Mr.

Speaker, I wish to speak on the point of order, and I' m offering a word of caution to all sides of the House that if the go vernment has a spokesman as well as the member who's introducing the motion from the same party well then that precedent will stand so that in the future any member plus any member of his party may speak on behalf of the party and we haven't been doing that up until this time. A MEMBER: Yes we have. MR. G. JOHNSTON: No we have not. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Osborne. MR. TURNBULL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party state his point of order. MR. ASPER: We have not received a copy of the resolution, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Would the pages hand the Honourable Member for Wolseley a copy of the resolution. -(I nterjections)-- The Honourable Me mber for Osborne. MR. TURNBULL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm sorry that my motion caused such concern among the members present and I suggest the Rules Committee regard the change in the rule as an urgent matter as well as my motion.

March 7 ,. 1973 MATTER OF URGENCY 357 (MRo ASPER cont'd. ) Sir , I refer you to

Section 103 of Beauchesne which does point out that urgency is when the ordinary opportunities provided by the Rules of the House do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and public interest demands that discussion take place immediately. Sir, I can think of no matter before this Legis lature today that is of greater urgency than the decision that may be taken by the City of Winnipeg Council this evening.

I think that it is clear that as that decis ion will occur this eveni ng there will be no other opportunity for a mem ber of this House to raise the subject matter, namely the proposal to contract out the work now done by the Ci ty En gineer ing Department. By the time any member here has an opportunity to discuss this matter our good civic government and orderly administration in the Ci ty of Winnipeg could be laid off and these men, Sir, to be put on welfare ; for two reasons.

One that the wages paid by the private contractors are generally lower than wages paid by the Ci ty of Winnipeg and that contractors . . 0 MR o SPEAKER: Order, please. I must caution the honourable member that he is debat ing the substance of the motion and not the urgency. MRo TURNBULL: Yes , Sir. And that contractors will in fact require that some of these individ uals who are working for private contractors will have to acquire social ass ist ance. Sir , by the time another opportunity arises for members of this House to discuss this proposal, the economy of the City could be affected detrimentally.

By the time any member of this Legis lative Assem bly has an opportunity to discuss this matter the assets of the Ci ty of Winnipeg may be sold off.

These assets are now worth, I'm told, a book value of 1. 7 million but the cost may be as high as 30 milliono Sir, the decision of the Ci ty Counc il is based on a report the cost studies of which are now in dispute , and I think it is clear that the Ci ty of Winnipeg as is its wont will be on the steps of the Legis lature soon not with the type of publicity stunt that occurred ye sterday but with a petition asking the Cbvernment of Manitoba to provide to them additional tax sources. That , Sir , I think is a foregone conclusion.

And if the costs of this proposal to contract out rise to the $30 million, the Ci ty of Winnipeg will be here very quickly asking that the members of this Legisla ture provide them with additional moneys. They have only recently come here , Sir , to ask for 25 percent, 25 percent of the provincial tax paid. Sir , I thi.nk that this report, this decision of the Ci ty of Winnipeg is one that requires discuss ion by the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba.

Surely the existing system of 80 percent done by private contractors and 20 percent by the public sector is sufficient for the public sector has a big enough share; surely the wages paid to the men of the City Engineering Depart ment need not be turne d into profits for contractors.

MRo SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Mi nistero MR o SCHREYER: Mro Speaker , at this time I would like to indica te very clearly that notwithstanding the subject matter of the honourable member's motion , and notwithst anding the conviction that the honourable member has in the matter, or my own, the fact remains that the subject matter referred to - my honourable friend's motion - is something which comes within the purview of decision- making of the Ci ty of Winnipeg under the authority vested in it by

an act of this Legis lature, the Province of Manitoba. Having said that I make no secret of the fact that in my own personal opinion that there is much in what the Honourable Member for Osborne has said that one can agree with, but that is not how the relationship between two levels of government, each operating within their own proper spheres is to be carried out.

One always continues to hope that there can be a maximization of harmonious re lations between two levels of government whether it be prov incial and federal, or whether it be provincial-municipal, and so whether it be in the case of this particular policy di spute , or whether it be in the case of any administrative dispute , there must always be a genuine effort to seek the most harmonious relations and solutions possi ble. Therefore , Mr.

Speaker, in addition to that fact, in addition to the fact that there is no urgency at ail involved here in the sense that the matter is not something that is to be decided properly by this Legisla ture , I do not see how urgency of debate in this Legisla ture is attached to the subject matter in question. I would, of course , like to indica te that the province feels that in all of its dealings with the Ci ty of Winnipeg to date, that apart from disag reements of policy questi ons we have tried to be scrupulously fair in our relationships with Ci ty administration.

I know there are some who would argue that we have not followed certain sections of the Ci ty of Winnipeg Act in our

358 MATTER OF URGENCY March 7, 1973 MR. S(JHREYER cont'd. ) • . . own procedures, Well Mr. Speaker, that's a matter of

interpretation , a matter of some difference of legal opinion. Earlier in response to the Mem ber for Port age la Prairie today I indicated that there were differing legal opinions with respect to two different sections of the City of Winnipeg Act, but cle�rly in this case, Mr. Speaker , it is a matter coming within the City of Winnipeg purview, under the City of Winnipeg Act; urgency of debate in this Legislature does not exist as such, . although the policy matter is important. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, the last words of the Premier I will agree,that the rule very clearly provides that the subject matter for debate must come under the purview of the government in question, This one obviously does not. Sir, the Fi rst Minister was given wide latitude in dea ling with the question of urgency and it now becomes obvious as to the rea sons why they insisted upon the right to speak in order to silence one of their own members.

All I can say, Sir, to honourable gentlemen opposite is for heaven's sake, pull yourself together and try and get along without bringing your family disputes into this Chamber time after time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKE R: Order, please. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I find myself in complete agreement with the Premier but I wo.nder whether he would have been so temperate in his turndown of the motion had it been a member from this side who proposed such an asinine motion in the first place. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

Order , please. The honourable member is imputing motives. I wish he would retract . . . MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well then I withdraw the word asinine -- · I say stupid. MR. SCHREYER: . . . observation. Would the honourable member permit an observa tion. I can assure him most readily that if it were my honourable friend the Member for Portage la Prairie , I would be equally gracious and kind and friendly. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder how members of this House would feel if an MP in Ottawa stood up and asked for an Emergency Debate on matters that were to do with this Legislature. -( Interjection)- My fi:iend says it's been done; well I doubt it very much that anybody that had the brains to become an MP and go to Ottawa would insert his nose into the business of a provincial legislature. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. G, JOHNSTON: So I can't help but make the observation, Mr.

Speaker, that the motion, the motion that we are considering whether or not to debate, I don't think has done any good at all for the cause of friendly co-operation between the City of Winnipeg and this Legis lature. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. I thank all the honourable members for their contrib ution in respect to urgency. I have to concur with those who indicated th,at there is no urgency and that it doesn't fall within the purview of this House. Beauchesne's citation 100 subsection (1) says, "that the matter must involve the administrative responsibility of the government". It clearly does not.

Therefore I must refuse the motion. I should also like to indicate that not only today, but yesterday as well , those who are making motions should sign their motions when they forward them to the Chair. Thank you. Any other oral questions? The Honourable First Mi nister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, if there are no further questions before Orders of the Day I have condolence motions. ORAL QUE STION PERI OD (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rh ineland. MR. FROESE : I have a question that I would li ke to direct to the Mi nister of Mines and Resources. Could he inform the House as to who is the present legal counsel for the Manitoba Development Corporation ? MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Mi nes and Resources. MR. GREEN : Mr. Speaker, there is one staff counsel, who I believe is Mr. M. Freedman, and, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that maybe one-third of the rest of the lawyers in Winnipeg are making a living now froni the Manitoba Development Corporation. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, a few days ago I was asked a question by the Honourable

March 7, 1973 359 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd. ) . . • • . Member for Ri el. The question was: is the Depart ment of Touri sm , Recr eation and Cultural Affairs engage d in expropriating land in West Hawk Lake. Now I gave the answer to the honourable member who is not here, but in view of the fact that this was asked in the House the answer is no. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR, SPEAKER: Ord ers of the Day. The Honourable First Minister. MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCE MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker , pursuant to notice given in this Chamber on Fr iday, and then again yesterday, I would like with honourable members' permission, to proceed with the dealing, treating of four motions of condolence. The first has to do with the late Gordon Beard, MLA , former member for the Constitu ency of Churchill. Mr. Beard passed away a matter of three months ago or so at the age of 51, a relatively young man.

He was a native Manitoban, born in Neepawa back in the 1920 1s, served in the Canadian Army during the Second World War, and moved to the Dauphin district sometime soon after the end of World War II to establish a busine ss there. He moved, as many honourable members know so well , to the Thompson area in the late 1950's to establish a busine ss there. Subsequently he was elec ted to this Assembly in the early 19 60's. He served as a member of the Assembly for a period of six years, I belie ve, four of which were with the party of the Official Opposition, now, the government then.

He resi gned in 1968 for reasons having to do with the northland and northern development and returned to this House in 1969 as an Independ ent member. I think that every one in this Chamber would be able to agree with alacrity, that Mr. Beard was one who spoke with feeling , who spoke with understanding , who spoke with practical commonsense about the north and the problems associated with the small and remote commun iti es, and with northern mining towns , and the problems of ec onomics and eco nomic develop ment, transportation costs , etc. , etc. , ins ofar as northern communities were concerned.

He had a particular and very continuing survei llance on many programs that were being evolved with application and relevance to the north, the use of the Port of Churchill; and in more recent years, his interest bro adened to include an interest in the high Arctic. It is a matter of intense personal satisfaction to me that I spent with the late Gordon Beard a number of days in northern Manitoba together, he and I, and also in the Arctic district of Keewatin this last late, this last July, and had opportunity to discuss many, many aspects of government responsibi lity and northern development with him. Mr.

Speaker I could go on and on but at this po int I would like to move the sending of a Motion of Condolence to his surviv ing wife and two children, and to le ave other words of expres sion in his memory to a person who is also well known to him and who shares res ponsibility for the same part of the province. So accordingly, Mr.

Speaker , I move , seco nded by the Honourable the Member for Thompson, that this House co nvey to the family of the late Gordon Wilbert Be ard who served as a member of the Legis lative Assembly of Manitob a its sincere sympathy in their bereave ment, and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service , and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resol ution to the family. MR. SPEAKER pre sented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the Premier for giving me the opportunity to say a few words about my departed collea gue and my con stituent. I was al ways concerne d, Mr. Speaker , that the day would come when I would have to say something about a departed member because I have felt that in politics there's often people that are, you know, less than exemplary and it would be very difficult for me to get up and say something nice about a rogue . I am happy to say that I do not have such a problem. I think ev erybody in this House , and outside of the House , will agree with me that Mr.

Beard was probably as fine a politician as sat in this Legis lature since its inception a hundred years ago I have had the plea sure , Mr. Speaker , of sharing an office with him si nce about 18 months ago , and sharing our geographical posi tion in this House, and sharing our Independence together,

360 March 7, 197 3 MOTION OF CONDOLENC E (MR, BOROWSKI cont'd. ) . . • • • and on many occasions voting together on various issues in this House. Mr. Speaker , Mr. Beard, like myself was one of the original pioneers into Thompson. We are often referred to by our friends as the Founding Fathers of Thompson. When we arrived there , there was nothing but muskeg and swamp and black flies and mosquitoes and a headframe. I worked on the headframe and Mr.

Beard was a little more fortunate he had a coffee shop and a dining room in a local hotel, which we used to frequent very often and when we got tired of eating the camp food we would go to his hotel. As I continued to work underground and work with the union Mr.

Beard was elected to the Legis lature and attempted to represent all of us in this newest community in Canada and after many years of frustration, understandable frustration, he resigned in 168 and as a result of that an ele ction was called and I ran and got elected, so I suppose if one can be ever grateful for getting into politics that I should be grateful for him launching me into politics because certainly had he not resi gned it is difficult to say what would have happened. The probability is that I would not be here today. Mr. Speaker, all of us in Thompson had respected Mr. Beard, certainly since '68.

I don't think it's any secret we were just as disi llusioned with him prior to '68 as he was with the inability to get anything for the north. After his resignation I .think he became perhaps one of the most popular people in the north, and since his election in 169 he worked tirel essl y for all of the north, which included my own constituency. He will be missed by all of us there , as I am sure he will be missed by the memb ers. I would like to close in express ing my appreciation again to the Premier , and to Mrs.

Beard we offer our condolences and our prayers and we pray for her spiritual strength to carry on with her children on her own. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words on· the Motion of Con dolence for someone who was our colleague and someone who was a friend to all of us, a man of the north, as we knew, whose vision and concern, and whose diligence and human warmth really truly knew no bounds. Gordon Be ard was a man who made an inde lible impression on all who met and came· to know him as a man from the north.

Gordon was a big man , we knew that, but even his size could not contain the size of his heart. No sense of urgency would stop Gordon from pass ing the time of day with another person; and his supreme character was his ever abiding interest in people. Gordon Beard staked out his place in this Legis lative Chamber. It didn't take him long to make his concerns known to everyone in this House , yet in remembering his speeches here in this Legis lature, they were characterized, as the First Mi nister indicated , by common sense and by wisdom.

He was a man not to be ignored when he pleaded for the north, for Manitoba, and for Western Canada, and for the country of which he was so much a part. Gordon was a progress ive person in his outlook. His vis ion of the north was far ahead of the rest of us as he outlined the character of the north, its physical presence and the place it had in the mosaic of our province. I and all of us knew Gordon Beard well and we all considred him a true friend.

I recall last year almost to the day, when I was recuperating in the hospital , on a Friday at the con clusion of the first week of the session Gordon visi ted me in the hospital and spent time -- he visi ted me after hours so that he could spend time, and he spent a lot of time in the course of the evening with a discuss ion of the e•.•ents of the week as he summarized them, as he saw the political intrigue , as he dealt with what he considered the cut and thrust of debate. Alth.Jugh he was an Independent in the true sense of the word, Gordon had an interest in the political process and in all political

partie 1;1. He was a member of the House from 1962 as the First Mi nister indicated until his death, with a brief recess from 1968 until the 1969 election Now he began as a member of the Progressi ve Conserva tive caucus and when he died he was sitting as an Independent , but in no way, Mr. Speaker, did that reduce the admiration we held for him; it only served to emphasize his independent spirit and his irritation for getting things done. Today in many circles , Mr. Speaker, the name of a politician is viewed with certain skepticism.

Gordon Beard's contribution to the esteem of public service will go down in the annals of our province 's history. Politics and the north were his life. Gordon believed that the political

March y, 197 3 36 1 MOTION OF CONDOLENC E (MR. SPIVAK cont'd. ) . . . . . service was the highe st goal for man. He sought politi cs as a means for accomplish ing his goals for the north . For him politics was the highest prcr fession and he served himself and our province in a way that sets an example for all of us. Mr. Speaker, no words can truly expre ss the emotional impact which I, and I am sure all our colleagues in this Chamber , feel on thi s motion of condolence. I can only hope that my few words can do some justice to a man who served well and for whom we have a total respect. MR.

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye . MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I will also try hard not to make my remarks too per sonal because so many of us knew him perso nally and knew him well. Mr. Speaker , I think that we would all agree that Gordon' s pass ing away was rather untimely, if we can use that word, at a re lative ly youthful age. However, all of us would agree perhaps if Gordon Beard had not pers onally applied himself so unselfishly and applied himself so diligently with problems of the north and as a member of this House , I say perhaps this might have extended his life.

However, now that he is gone, all of us in this House will remem ber him for years to come as a likeable, constru ctive and a peaceable man. I beli eve much more could be said. I know that many members here today would like to say some of the thing s that are on top of their minds , of the many things that we shared with Gordon while a member of this House But as has been said, we all knew him personally, and I know we agree that he has left a great void in this House and even a greater void in northern Manitoba. So, Mr.

Speaker , our group is happy to assoc iate ourselves with this motion of condolence to be sent to his wife , Mabel , his son Bi lly and of course his daughter and son-in- law. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker , I too wish to assoc iate myself with the Condolence Motion that's before us.

Gordon Beard was a very close friend of mine , indeed I enjoyed his support , espe cia lly during this last Legisla ture very very much; and it just so happened that probably I was the only member of the House except for the Mi nisters of the Crown that attended the conference in Churchill last summer, where we had some pleas ant times together and also where we discussed a number of matters that were so close to his heart. He was a great champion of the Hudson Bay Route Assoc iation and to which meeting he went even last spring to address them.

He honestly did his level best for his constituency and for northern Manitoba. I know all members of the House will miss him -- probably I will mis s him more than any of the others -- and I certainly want to pay my respects and express my condolences to the Beard family, to Mrs. Beard and her children. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may be permitted to add a word of sympathy to the family of the late Gordon Beard. I do this, Mr.

Speaker , by the fact that Gordon and I were sworn in together as members of this Legis lature in 1962 , and from this meeting, Mr. Speaker, a lasting friendship developed. I having live d and worked and served in the North west Territori es, this somehow drew Gordon and myself together in the bringing together of minds. I, Sir, shall miss him. During the Throne Speech debate , Mr. Speaker, almost without exception during those eight days, member s have prefixed their remarks with words of respect and admiration to the memory of Gordon Beard. We served together, Mr.

Speaker, on the Northern Task Force; we travelle d into the far rea ches of the North. He contributed much and, Sir, in my opinion the report, the outcome of that work, is part of his memorial. Mr. Beard, Mr. Speaker, had an unique dialogue with the people of Indian, Metis and Es kimo blood; he was a pricele ss gentleman and respected by them. Sir, we have too few of his breed in this day and age. He gave every substance , oft time s beyond endurance , Mr. Speaker, many time s to the expense of his pers onal family, sometimes at the expense of his health. In recent years, Mr.

Speaker, Gordon Beard has been successful in pl acing before the people of Canada the problem s, the trials , and trib ulations of white and Indian and Es kimo alike in north ern Manitoba. Sir, northern Manitoba is the better for Gordon Beard having passed that way. And again , Sir, I extend my condolences to Mrs. Be ard and her family. MR. SPEAKER: In accepting and concurring with the Motion of Condolence , would the members please rise for a moment of si lence. The Honourable Fi rst Mi niste r.

362 March 7, 1973 MOTION OF CONDOLENCE MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, it is obviously not possi ble for one to speak with as much perso nal feeling in the case of a former member of this As sembly who was here at a time before the memory invo lvement of anyone that is here today. That is the case with the late Oddur Olafson who was MLA for the constituency of Rupertsland in the period of 1936 to 194 0. Mr. Olafson passed on last December 16th at the age of 84 years. He was born in Riverton and live d there for all , or if not all, for most of his life.

He was inv olved with a number of busine ss enterpri ses in the Province of Manitoba, including Falcon Construction , Monarch Construct ion, Lake Winni peg Fur Farms. He was also active in the Masonic Order and in the activitie s that surround the Masonic Order. The late Mr. Olafson, if one could just turn one's, try at least to turn one's mind back to the years of his serv ice here ill this Legis lature , 1936 to 1940, serving a constituency that even today is one of the more difficult to serv e. In those days it must have been difficult indee d.

The constituency of Rupertsland in the late 193 01s, it was an area of the province in which there was a virtual absence of the most basic kind of transportation acce ss except by water on the eastern shore of Lake Winnipe g and by the most primitive kind of bush airplane s. Communiti es like Li ttle Gr and Rapi ds, Berens River, and communitie s between Lake Winnipe g and the Ontario border further north must have been like making a great adventure journey into some far distant place. It must have had that kind of relative distance and time factor in those days. So we assume that the late Mr.

Olafson therefore was in a way represen ting very much a frontier region in the province in that time. I would move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Rupertsland, that to his surviving wife , two daughters and three sons, that this House convey to the family of the late Oddur Olafson its si ncere sympathy in their bere avement and its apprecia tion of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service , and that Mr. Speaker be re quested to forward a copy of this resol ution to the family. MR. SPEAKER presen ted the motion. MR. SPEAKER; The Honourable Member for Rupertsland.

MR. ALLARD: Mr. Speaker, the life of Mr. Oddur Olafson spanned almost a total existence of the Icelandic settlement in this province , having been born and lived all his life in Riv erton, as the Premier stated. He was also the founder , which the Premier did not state, of Olafson Tra nsportation Company and as such trave lled the length and bre adth of the lake on busine ss, as well as in his occupation as a politician, and had fr iends from one end of the lake to the other. He was a great sportsman. He was interested, especially in boys and in hockey, and a very community-minded person. Mr.

Speaker, I am honoured to second this motion of condolence. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Well , Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege on behalf of the Conserv ative Party to expre ss condolences to the family of Oddur Olafson. While I did not know Mr. Olafson , I think it should be said, Mr. Speaker, that anyone who chooses to seek public office is giving a service to his community and to his country, and by the des cription the First Mi nister has made of his life he is no exception in this case .

He was a busy man in his own community and he still found time to offer his services to his community. And it is my privilege , Mr. Speaker to expre ss on behalf of our Party condolences to the family of Oddur Olafson. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Li beral Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to associate the Liberal Party with the motion before the House, to expre ss our condolence and last re spects to the memory of Oddur Olafson.

As the Fi rst Mi nister said, it is somewhat unfortunate that no-one is here to speak on his behalf who knew him but it is a matter of some poetic justice perhaps , symmetry, that one member of this Chamber Reverend Petursson did officiate at the final ceremoni es, I believe , for the burial of Mr. Olafson. From what we know of him he was a man of many parts. He had a phenomenal enthusiasm for life and all of its challenges.

He was an entrepreneur in the true Manitoba pioneer sense; he founded several companies, engaged in experi mental innovative transportation technique in one of the most difficult areas of the province. He tried ranching; he experim ented with ranching , and many people in the area today remember him as having intr oduced a way of life and an economic viability to fur ranching in partic ular. He was a man of great figure . Those who remember him in the district as a young man

March 1, 19 73 MOTION OF CONOOLENCE 363 (MR. ASPE R cont'd. ) . . describe him as a man who couldn't resist a challenge and couldn't resist the commitment to help others, and as he chose at one short period of his life, four years , to serve in public office I think demonstrates this.

If it's true that each of us through our lifetime is really building a mosai c, a pattern, of what our lives were , then look ing back on the life of Oddur Olafson one must say that it is a very impress ive pattern, so for that reason we are proud to join in the Condolence Motion and express our sympathy to his very large family whose , I am sure , memory of him is enriched by the length of life and the accom plis hment he had. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROES E: Mr. Speaker , not having known the honourable member, the late Mr.

Ol afson, however anyone see king and serving public office in this Legis lature I think is deserv ving of public recognition. Therefore, I would like to associate myself with the Motion of Condolence . MR. SPEAKER: In accepting and concurring with the motion of condolence would the honourable members please rise for a moment of sil ence. The Honourable First Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: I would like now to presen t to the House and to you, Sir, the Motion of Condolence relating to the late Alexander Kei th - I'm sorry, Sir -- the late Arnold Keith Alexander who was a member of this As sembly from the period 1958 to 1969. The late Mr. Alexander was one born in Manitoba also , educated in the Russe ll-Roblin area of the province. He served in the Canadian Armed Forces for quite a number of years in the early 1940s through until the period of 1954 , He became a member of this Assembly with the formation of the new government in 1958 and served for the next 11 years.

I, Sir, am not aware of the circumstances of the passing of the late Mr. Alexander and would only wish to add that to his family this Legis lature wishes to send the following motion: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, that this House convey to the family of the late Keith Alexander who served as a member of the Legisla tive As sembly of Manito ba its sincere sympathy in their bereavement, and its apprec iation ot his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service , and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resol ution to the family. MR.

SPEAKER pre sented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McK ENZIE : Mr. Speaker , I thank the Honourable the First Minister for extending me the privilege to speak to the motion that is before the House in condol ences to the family of the late Ke ith Alexander who passed away at a very young age of 51 years, December 1972. He was a very active person in the Russell-Roblin area, as the First Minister has stated, having served in the Air Force as a pi lot.

He attended the University of Manitoba, Arts Deg ree , and studied theology, and in 197 u he became a full-time Lay Minister for the United Church of Canada, and until shortly before his death he served the Benito-Kenville pastoral charge in our province . He was a member of the Masonic fraternity, a member of the Legion and, as the Fi rst Mi nister said, served the Members of the Robl in constituency in this House with great distinction, and I am sure , Mr. Speaker, that the record will show this man con tributed a great deal to the debates of those days and to the progre ss of our great province .

Surviving besides his wife are his sist er, Mrs. Sprung of Manitou and his mother, who resides in Roblin. His father pred eceased him in 1968. He was a very interesti ng man, Mr. Speaker. He's one of the few people in life who bec ause of his tee1ings and his deep concern for his fellow-man he left a very lucrative occup ation to enter the Ministry and served as a Lay Minister until the time of his death. I am sure , Mr. Speaker, that we all here today sincerel y regret that this man was unable to finish the work· in which he had become so vitally interested. So, Mr.

Speaker , on behalf of myself and the members ot our Party and the people of Roblin cons tituency , which I am most honoured to represent, I jo �n the Fi rst Minister in ext ending our sympathy and condolen ces to his family. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , on behalf of the Liberal group we join in sending our condolence s to the Kei th Alexander family. I believe three ot us had the ple asure of sitting with Mr.

Alexander for several years in the early sixti es and I can say without fear that we found him to be extremely witty and intelligen t and he made a contribution to this Chamber and

364 March 7, 1973 MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCE (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd. ) . . . . . he made a contribution to the progre ss of this prov ince. We are proud to be assoc iated with the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FRO ESE : Mr. Speaker, and speaking to the Condolence Motion of Keith Alexander those of us who were in the House when he sat with us will remember him as a dear friend. And I can recall when he spoke , he spoke with enthusiasm and he really enjoyed a spiri ted debate.

I'm sure that he will be remembered by all of us who knew him , and we would like to express our condolences to the family. MR. SPEAKER: In accepting and concurring with the motion of condolence would all members please rise for a moment of sil ence. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. SpeaKer , I come now to a former member of this Assembly who passed on most recently and therefore is the last of the Condolence Motions to be pre sented to the House. I refer to the late Ev elyn Foster Shannon, Esq, , ML A, for the constituency , I think, as it was then called, Transcona-Spr ingfie ld.

The late Ev Shannon as he was known apparently to those who knew him, to his friends and neighbour s in Transcona, was also a native Manitoban having been born in Rapid City, Manitoba and educated at Ke lvin High School here in Winnipeg , and who livea in Transcona from early on in the 192 0s.

He served in the Royal Flying Corps and on his return from the war went into the lumber dealership business in the Town v1 Transco na; and of course we do have , Si r, m this Chamber one who without reflect ing on his years in a way that he may not be pleased with, nevertheless I must say mac any thing -that has happened in Transcona si nce 1925 or 30 he will be well aware of and in a much better posit ion to speak to than I. Let me add, Mr. Speaker, that the late Mr.

Shannon at one time repre sented an area, a constituency part of the area of which included the Beausejour district which in turn touches on my own life, my own lifetime , I had no perso nal acquaintanceship with Mr. Shannon but I do recall in the election campaign of 1940 or 45 when I was perhaps just a boy of 5 or 8 years old that as often happens there were el ection slogans being used. Mr. Shannon was a sitting mem ber, was running for re-election, one of his opponents was a Mr. Pulfer -- Mr. Pulfer's name was spelled P-U-L-F-E-R.

Someone in jest changed the "E" to an "0" and the slogan was, "Pull for Shannon" - The third candidate in that constituency was a gentle man by the name of Barefoot and so someone in jest added to the commercial sticker or slogan, the words - "Pull for Shannop and go Barefoot", -- and of course one has to have a sense of humour in politics or else it would become intolerable. I don't know if the late Ev Shannon ever remarked or commented to my honourable col league , the Minister of Labour, about that particular experience but it is one little anecdote of life that I do happen to recall from boyhood days.

Well, Mr. Speaker, it is I belie ve a very good tradition and practice that this Legisla tive Assembly has maintained over all these years to send a resol ution of condolence to the survi ving family and accordingly in this case, I move, se conded by the Honourable Minister of Labour, that the House convey to the family of the late Ev elyn Foster Shannon, who served as a Member of the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba, its si ncere sympathy in their bereavement and its apprecia tion of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service and that Mr.

Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resol ution to the family. MR. SPEAKER pre sented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm an old traditionalist and one of the reasons that I appreciate so much the conduct of this House is that each year when there has been the pass ing of a former member of the House that a Motion of Condolence is presented by the pres iding officer, normally the Premier. And the motion, Mr. Speaker, is always the same.

There is no difference made in the formal motion between the persons concerned; no mention is made in the formal motion as to what party the individual happene d to have served; hut it is a general recognition of devotion to duty by former members. This year, Mr. Speaker, I have li stened, as indeed the members of the House have , to these Motions of Condole nce. I have had the honour of sitting in this House with seven of the departed members. I have had the honour and the pri vilege of being associated with Ev elyn Shannon and his family over the years.

The only one that I did not have the honour of knowing was Mr. Olafson. Mr. Speaker, one of these day

March 7, 1973 365 MOTIONS OF CONDOLE NCE (MR. P AULLEY cont'd. ) . . . someone is going to stand up in this House and express a Motion of Co ndolence for all of us that are here today. And I think that we 're among an honoured group of people in Manitoba. · I've had the opportunity of being here for some 20 years and I doubt, Mr. Speaker , whether I would need the fingers of one hand to count th ose that were not real devoted citizens of thi s great province of ours. Such was Evelyn Shannon. He was a fraternal brothe r of mine and on a number of occasions we sat within a Lodge room.

He was a man that was honored and re spected in the community ; he was the Mayor of Tr anscona for a number of years; and he was a Liberal , but had the real affection of all of the people of the tllen Town of Tr anscona. In his political career as represen tative of the Co nstituenc y of Springfield he acquitted himself admirably in this House and it was most unfortunate that really his term of office ended as the re sult of an accident that he had. But he did, as I indicate,Mr. Speaker, repre sent Transc ona and the Co mmunity of Springfield well.

He had three sons who were very very closely connected with my family, grew up to gether and knew each other very well. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker , somewhere down along the line there is a remo te re lationship between Evelyn Shannon and one of my daughters. I attended his last rite s. The funeral home was filled to capacity an indication of the affection with which he was held, not only with his lodge members but with the community as a whole. And while sometime s, Mr.

Speaker, we recognize that eventually we all must pass to the great beyond, we cannot help but regret the passing of those whom we respected and were associated with. So , Mr. Speaker , I want to thank the First Minister for giving me the opportunity thi s afternoon of expres sing to Mrs. Shannon and the three boys , and Evelyn's descendants , the apprecia tion of a life well spent in not only devotion to his native province but also to his community of Trans cona and to his family. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INE Z TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, the Progres sive Conserv ative mem bers of this Assem bly wish to assoc iate themselves with the messa ge of condolences which is to be address ed to the family of Mr. Evelyn Foster Shannon. Few people have such an opportunity to serv e the ir fellow citizens as did Mr. Shannon.

He served as Mayor of Tra nscona, as a Member of this Legislature; he serv ed his country in the Royal Flying Corps in 1918; his busine ss career encompassed a lumber dealership, real es tate and insurance; and after his service as an MLA had been completed he continued to serv e the public as a civil ser vant in the Manitoba Hi ghways Department until 1968. He was also active in a number of service clubs. Although none of us who are members now had the privil ege of knowing Mr. Shannon, we wish to extend to his family and his friends our sincere sympathy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assi niboia. MR.

PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on behalf of the members of our party on this condolence motion. It was not my pleasure nor it was not my privilege to know Mr. Shannon per sonally but the record speaks for itself. He was a good public servant, he was a mayor , he was an MLA, and I have tried to get some information from the people that knew him and I was advised that he was a real good public ser vant. So, Mr. Speaker, I wish to assoc iate the Liberal members with this condolence motion to the family, to the late Mr. Shannon and to his family. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR.

FROE SE : Mr. Speaker, not having known the late Mr. Shannon, however I would like to associa te my se lf with what has already been said by other members of this Legis lature here today and give my condolence to the Shannon family. MR. SPEAKER: In accepting and concurring with the motion of condolence , would all the members please rise for a moment of si lence.

366 March 7, 1973 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe we are now in Private Members ' Hour and si nce there are no Orders for Return which have been received I would think there is no debating of Orders for Return and that the next item would be Private Members' Resolutions . MR. SPEAKER: Right. The Honourable House Leader is correct in his assumption. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , calling of the Orders for Return is normally done on regular time. I have no objection to it be ing done now. Mr.

Speaker, with the consent of all of the mem be rs of the House, I would ask that we call the Orders for Return then. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR, JORGENSON : Mr. Speaker, that arrangement is perfectly agreeable to us except that I notice that the Member for Ass iniboia has' the first Pri vate Members' Resolution and I would suggest that I would defer to him to determine whether or not he's prepared to go ahead with his resol ution. If not, then we'll deal with the Orders for Return. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, the only difficulty with that course of action is that each per son following the Member for Ass iniboia would then have the same choice;

whereas if we all agree by unanimous consent that we want the Orders for Return called, we can do so. MR. SPEAKER: Then we agree that we go on Orders for Return first - Agreed ? · Very well. The Honourabl e Member for Riel, the first Order for Return. ORDERS FOR RE TURN MR. CRAIK : Mr.

Speaker I beg to move, seconded by the Honourabl e Member from Swan River THAT an Order of the House do issue providing information on the amount of money paid by or on behalf of The Pas Forestry Complex to Stothert and Company, including: 1. the amount paid to Mr, Stothert or his firm in resp ect of consulting ser vices ; 2. the amount paid to Mr. Stothert in his capacity as General-Manager of the Complex. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion, MR .• SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Government has no objection to this Order.

MOTION CARRIED MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. A MEMBER: He's absent. MR, SPEAKER: Oh! The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charlesw ood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Mem ber for Pembina THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following infor mation: 1. The amount of office or other space purchased, rented, or leased by the Prov incial Government or its agencies since the compilation of the information provided in Sess ional Paper No. 81 of the Fourth Sess ion of the Twenty-Ninth Legisl ature, 2.

The date of each particular purchase, lease, or rental transaction. 3. The persons or companies with which each transaction occurred. 4. The amount of building space involved in each particular trans action. 5, The amount of money paid out in respect to each particular transaction. 6, The department or agency of the Provincial Gover nment on whose behalf each part- icular transaction was made. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR, GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I assume that the honourable member is moving this on be half of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR.

SPEAKER: That is correct. MR, GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the gover nment has no objection to filing this return. would warn the House that the compilation of the information will be an onerous job but it will be attempted. There is no objection in principle to filing the information. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed Order for Return by the Honourable Member for Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Rock Lake THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return providing the following information concerning the Executive As si stants to every one of the Ministers :

March 7, 19 73 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) 1. the number of such Executive Ass istants; 2. the name of each; 3. the contractual terms of employment of each; 4. the salary of each; 5. the date of the appointment of each; 6. the nature of the appointment of each (whether by compe tition, bulletin, etc. ); 7. the profes sional qualifications of each. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable House Leader. 367 MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the government is prepared to fulfill the terms of this Order. MR. SPE AKER: Very well, so ordered. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR.

BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Rup ertsland THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. the number of doctors performing abortions in Manitoba; 2. the amount paid to doctors per each abortion; 3. the cost of post-abo rtion visi ts to doctors' offices; 4. the names of doctors pe rforming abortions; 5. the names of the members of the Abortion Committee; 6. the number of abortions paid for by Medicare per formed in other Canadian hospital s; 7. the number of abortions paid for by Medicare perf ormed in the u. s.

A. ; 8. the number of abortions paid for by Medicare pe rformed in other countries; 9. total Medicare payment for abortions outside of Canada. MR. SPE AKER pres ented the motion. MR. GREEN : Mr. Speaker, again the terms of this Order are particularly onerous to fulfill but the Government will attempt to do so, subject to us supp lying that information which is within Government competen ce, information of which we are aware. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? So ordered. The proposed Order for Return by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Ass iniboia THAT an order of the House do issue for a return with respect to the employment of Messrs. Dr. Peter Briant former M. D. c. President. Mr. Robert Carr former ass istant Deputy Minister of Health and Social Development. Dr. Weldon former se cretary of Planning and Priorities and Priorities Committee. Mr. Andre Oulette, former Deputy Minister of Health and Social Developm ent. Mr. Cass-Beggs former chairman of Manitoba Hydro, answering the following questions in each case: 1.

Were these jobs filled by the above-mentioned advertised, if so, in what publications . 2. How many people were interviewed for each position and by whom was the interview conducted. 3. In the case of interviews how many interviews were held with each of the above mentioned and what was the duration of each interview. 4. What were the qualifications of each of the above that convinced the government to hire the individuals in each case, state the period of employment and salaries and expenses for each of the above-named for the period employed. 5.

What were the financial terms of settlement when they left government service, where a financial settlement was made. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speak er, the Government has no objection tO filing a return on this Order. I would warn the honourable member that some of the information not be as precise as is implied by the answers, such as the number of interviews and the exact length of time, but to the extent that we can provide the honourable member with answers to the questions we will do so. MR.

SPEAKER: The propose d Resolution of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON JOHNSTON: I move, seconded by the Member for La Verendrye THAT an

368 March 7, 1973 ORDERS FOR RETUR N (lVIR, GORDON JOHNS TON cont'd) • . .•. order of the House do issu e for a return showing with respect to the name, qualifications, pos ition and salary of each person hired by Order-in Council si nce July, 1968 to the present time. 2. The name, qualifications, pos ition and salary of each person earning over $10, OOO per annum hired through the Civil Service Commission since July 1968 to the pres ent time. lVIR, SP EAKER pres ented the motion. lVIR, SPE AKER: The Honourable House Leader. lVIR, GREEN : lVIr.

Speaker, Orders-in- Council are of course, a matter of public record and are available without the government filing a return. If the honourable member wants someone to do this type of paper work which is normally not required, we would prefer the paper work to debating as to whether this should be done but it is not normally the case that persons hired by Order-in-Council become a matter of an Order ior Return because it is already public.

With respect to the balance, we are perfectly agreeable to providing the information. lVIR, SPEAKER: Before I accept the totality of it, I would like to indicate that the Chair was remiss in not indicating that the first

part is public information and should not have been included in the question. So therefo re, if that is agreeable the remainder of the question will be accepted, Agreed ? So ordered.

The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. lVIR, GORDON JOHNSTON: I move, se conded by the Member for La Ver endrye, THAT an order of the House do issue for a return showing with respect to each member of the govern ment civil service who made trips outside of Canada on government business in the years 1968 to the pres ent time give the following: Names and pos itions held of every individual on each trip, the places vis ited, by each individual ; The cost of each trip; The purpose of each trip; What was accomplish ed by each trip; and Who authorized the trip. MR. SPE AKER pres ented the motion. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader, MR. GREEN : Mr. Speaker, again this is a difficulty only in terms of the onerous job of compiling it, The Government has no objection to providing the inf ormation. Some of the questions are rather _subjective· - what was accomplished by each trip ? I assu me that the answers could be equally subj ective. MR. SP EAKER: Agreed ? So ordered. MR. GREEN: The honourable member is - when he says "the cost of each trip", I assu me that he's talking about the cost to the Government of the Province of Manitoba? MR, PAULLEY: Not individual cost, That's fine. Not the individual ... MR.

SP EAKER: Agreed ? So ordered. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON JOHNSTO N : I move, sec onded by the Member for Ass iniboia, THAT an order of the House do issue for a return showing the following: The total cost of the Judge Hewak's Commission Inquiry. MR, SPEAKER pres ented the motion, MR, SP EAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: The Order is perfectly agreeablt; Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE AKER: Agreed. So ordered. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR, JORGENSO N : Mr. Speaker, if I may be permitted to move this Order for Return on behalf of my colleague, the Member for Lakeside.

And I wonder at the same time if I may, in order to get it off the Order Paper or dealt with, move the other one that was stood just a few moments ago, if there is no objection to the House. On the top of page 2. MR. SP EAKER: Is that agreed to ? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Morris. MR.

JORGENSON: I move, sec onded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all corres pondence and contractual agreements among the Manitoba Government and the Manitoba Hog Marketing Board and Burns Foods Limited relating to the sale of pork to J"apan. MR, SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agri culture. MR, USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure as to the intent in the Resolution so I have to at

March 7, 1973 369 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. USKIW cont'd) ••••• this point refuse the Order. It's not clear enough. MR. SPEAKER: In that case it will be transferred for debate. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. · JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, if the Minister is not sure then perhaps there are one or two courses open to us - either we can move it for debate or we can ask the Minister and leave it standing on the Order Paper until we find out just what the Minister - what is confusing about this particular Order for Return. So if it's agreeable with the government I would ask this matter stand. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Hous e Leader. MR. GREEN: May I suggest that it could stand on the Order Paper. That in the mean time the member who wants the information and the Minis ter of Agriculture could possibly talk to one another and by that time, if it's not ••. MR. PAULLEY: If it's presented and ••• MR. S�EAKER: Agreed, that we leave the matter in abeyance. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Minister of Labour is indicat ing that the motion was presented and has been declined.

Could we perhaps have unanimous consent of the House tO regard the motion as not having been presented, so that there is no breach of the rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. Agreed? The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, then I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake THAT an Order of the House do issue providing information concerning any pension arrangements made on behalf of Mr. David Cass -Beggs. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Cass-Beggs was also appointed by Order-in-Council.

I wonder if it would satisfy the honourable member if we did file a return but gave only such information as is not already in an Order-in- Council, if such exists. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? So ordered. Now we reach a resolution proposed by the Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, no, I wish to move ..• MR. SPEAKER: Oh, sorry that would be government business ••• Yes it is government bus iness . MR. GREEN: ••. unless there is a private member who wishes to speak on any of the resolutions which take precedence then the next item on the Order Paper is anything that has not been discuss ed.

A MEMBER: Leave has already been granted ••• MR. SPEAKER: Shall we proceed past Private Members'? GOVERNMENT RESOLUTIONS MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable the Minis ter of Agriculture that the Report of the Special Committee of the Legislature appointed to con sider the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceedings of the Legislative Ass embly of Manitoba and allied subjects received by this House on Monday, February 26, 1973 be referred to the Committee of the Whole House for consideration and thence reported to the House for concur rence. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROES E: On a point of order, is the Minister not going to speak and to elaborate on . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, just by explanation, there will be all kinds of time during committee for members to talk, not once, twice, but three times. I assume that will give full scope of debate to all of the honourable members and therefore I have no intention of making any remarks. That doesn't preclude other members. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Speaker, I really had thought that we would get a generalization or some further comment in addition to the report that is on the Order Paper and the motion

37 0 March 7, 197 3 GOVERNMENT RESOLUTI ONS (MR. FROESE oont'd) • • before us, because we are dealing with a report here that brings in something new and there was also a pres entation made to the committee .•• MR. SPE AKER: Would the honourable member address himself to the motion. The motion asked that the House go into Committee of the Whole to disc uss the report. That is the motion before the House. So would the honourable member address himself to that motion. MR. FROESE: Well, certa inly, Mr. Speaker, when the motion is being put that we can disc uss the matter of the report. MR. SP EAKER: Order, please.

I believe our rUles indicate that a member has to make his debate in respect to the motion before the House. I'm just asking the member to conform to our rules. The motion is that the House go into Committee of the Whole to study the question of the report. That is the motion before us. That's the debate the honourable gentleman can participate in right now. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. GREEN: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker. I move that, Mr.

Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to disc uss the aforementioned rules of the House. MOTION pres ented and carrie d. MR. SP EAKER: Honourable Member for Logan. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMA.t�: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: I intend to say as little as I possibly can; people accuse me often of doing the opposite. The report of the Rules Committee is very brief, I would hope that we could pass it expeditiously.

It deals with permiss ion being given to the media to record both by tele- . vision and by radio matters that are taking place in the House, on the understanding that it will be done at media expense and that there will be no governmental costs. There are two substantial amendments to the rules, and only two, both of which I understand really have been requested by opposition members.

One is that on the Estimates, that instead of breaking down the time into departments as we did last year we would go back to the position prior to last year's rule and that the Estimates will take 90 hours and will be called by the government at their disc re tion and will be debated by the House until they are concluded and that the termination will take place at the end of 90 hours. The rule, Mr. Speaker, -- Mr.

Chairman, one matter was the subject of some minor controversy is whether speeches be li mited to 30 minutes, The Rules Committete recommends that speeches be lim ited to 30 minutes, including Cabinet Ministers. We've accepted this, Mr. Chairman, on the good faith, which I think is important in the House, that a Minister pres ent ing his Estimates' would almost certainly be allowed beyond 30 minutes if he was dealing with the introduction of his Estimates. The committee will have that in their control at the pres ent time. We are prepared to pro ceed that way in the hope that that works out.

If it doesn't work out as we hope it would then of course that will be for those who disagree with it to try to make another change. Last year the Honourable the Minister of Labour pointed out that on third reading of a bill which is reported from a Committee of the Whole House, there was no debate and most members agreed that this was probably an inadvertence, so the suggested rule is that when a bill is reported from the Whole House it will come to the House for third reading in the same way as any other bill comes for third reading. Those are the only two rule changes.

The other matters contained in the report are really matters which affect practice and taste and are reco mme

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-15
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 15.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7814412fbb7a0b65d40b7b72626e6d83f4772bf4

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