Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY., MARCH 25, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE llf JAl\/fES RUSSELL Number 19

March 25, 1975 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 710 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable the Premier. Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal NM - 1 privilege, there is an

article in this morning's "Dailv News" which I would like to correct. It says, "A College of Mining is to be established here (meaning Springdale) Premier Moores said during the weekend." That is an incorrect statement, Mr. Speaker. The fact is that at that time in Springdale it was discussed hy a group of citizens and myself and the time when I did have occasion to speak that evening I said certainly the idea sounded as if it would be possibly a sound idea. It was the sort of thing that should be investigated by the Department of Education and other departments.

It was something that should be followed through with to see if there was any validity in it, but certainly at no time was there ever any ,mdertaking of the establishment of that college itself. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Transportation and Co111111unications. HON.J.ROUSSEAU (Minister of Transportation and Communications: Yes, Sir, Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise also on a point of personal privilege on a statement that appeared this morning in ''The Daily News".

The statement is very important insofar as I am concerned because it involves the very closest personal friend I have in government, but quite apart from that I cannot let the matter stand on record. I would suggest possibly, I have very little to say about the actual statement that appeared, somebody said I erupted angrily, maybe I did. I do not question that. Maybe what I think is 'angrily' somebody else may not think. Mr. Callahan is reported to have said that I was asked in my official capacity - that is good.

I accept that - if he thinks it was it is a matter of difference of opinion so I have no_ complaints about that sort of thing. There is one statement here that unsets me personallv and 2164

March 25, 1975 Tape No. 710 NM - 2 I would not want to let it to be kept on the record and it is II on page one, It says, Hr. Rousseau also put distance between himself and responsibility for the continuing ban by pointing out that he had only inherited a badly muddled situation, not any of his own doing when he took up acting duties for the ailing II Dr. Farrell.

Now I could not have recalled saying that yesterda , but I did go up this morninr and I listened to the tapes and all I am going to do is I am going to read what I said yesterday and hope that people will correct the statement and look at it objectively and that is about the only statement I have to say. But I do want to read what I said yesterday and I think because it happens to be a matter of concern to me that I would want this put on record. The honourable Member for St. Barbe North asked a question, "Mr.

Speaker, could the minister indicate what liasion there has been between the Department of - Oh I am sorry excuse me. "Would the Acting Minister of Public Works, Mr. Speaker, confirm or deny a report"and so on, so I will just read what I said and -''Mr. Rousseau,. Yesterday, or Thursday I guess it was, I had a call and all I said to the gentleman in question - it was not a new reporter, it was somebody in charge of circulation or advertising,! presume - and all I said was that I would have to check the matter out. I am the Acting Minister.

I do not know what the details are, So all I said was that I was going to check lt out and reply to the question I had posed to me by somebody in the advertising field. It was not a news story and I was rather surprised ­ this morning that that was there, which I undertook to check, but in respect to any statement on that the Premier has indicated he would like to say something. He is at a meeting now and I presume if the question is posed tomorrow he will have a statement on it. That is the " situation.

The honourable Leader of the Opposition asked a supplementary, ii '''fould the minister tell us whether it is proposed to end the ban that ,II 1\ is now in effect? I rose again and said, The Premier would want to make 2165

March 25, 1975 Tape No. 710 NM - 3 the statement on anything concerned with that and he has asked ,, for it to be deferred until tomorrow when he is here. The honourable the Leader of the Opposition posed another supplementary question, "I cannot make the minister answer a question• He has the right not to answer 1but reallylI mean he is neither answering nor not answering. Jrder, please! The Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary question : if I might. Mr. Speaker: Order.

The honourable the House Leader was up on• point of order and the honourable the Leader of the Opposition asked, may I ask a supplementary question, Mr. Spea~r, which he was allowed to do. He asked whether the minister can indicate whether any significant amount of government advertising at present has been placed in "The Daily News." He is the Acting minister of the ., ,,. department and thus it is appropriate. Another .

Order, please. 11Thus it is appropriace, Sir, that he tell us whether or not any government advertising, any significant amount of government advertising had now been placed in "The Daily News"?" ,, My reply was, I see some advertising there. Whether that is significant or not I do not know. Maybe we differ on the term ''significant." But as I say, and this is my position, that the Premier would like to reply to that question. He will do so tomorrow . And I will wait for the Premier's response tomorrow. The honourable Member for St.

Barbe North tried to have a question posed but the honourable Leader of the ~pposition had a further supplementary question, "Would the minister tell us whether has been any change in the past few days in the government's practice with respect to advertising in "The Daily News"?" I choose not to answer the question at that point in time and that is the sum and substance of what I said yesterday. Now how anybody could read into what I have just read as r.,y statement yesterday that ''Mr.

Rousseau also put distance between himself and responsibility for the continuing ban by pointing out that he had only inherited a badly muddled situation, not any of his own doing when ., he took up acting duty for tl;e ailing Dr. Farrell, you know it is beyond ny comprehension. So I would like to 2166

_March 25 1975. Tape 711 RH - 1 table this as a matter of record. I would like to indicate that as far as I am concerned in reading the text and listening to the tapes this naming and just reading the verbatim of the tapes, that to read that statement in this morning's paper out of what I said yesterday, you know, is a matter of concern to me. Certainly I can find no indication for that statement and I woulc' like to rise on that point of personal privilege and table the pertinent documents in the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! NOTICE OF MOTION: }1R. SPEARER: The honourable Minister of Justice. HON. T.A.

HICKHAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To .Amend· the Judicature Act. 11 ORAL QUESTIONS: :_~PEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista North. MR. P. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health. In view of the fact that at the hospital in Gander which has 131 beds at the present time and every bed is filled up and we also have people, sick people in the hallways, could the minister inform this honourable House - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. CROSBIE: (First

part inaudible) - is not allowed to recite alleged facts. He is not asking a question. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The honourable gentleman is not reciting any alleged facts. He is stating some facts that are preparatory and prefatory to his question. That is an accepted question form. If any honourable gentleman opposite wished to look at the Hansard of Ottawa or anywhere else they would see it is quite in order to phrase a question, not with a speech, but to phrase a question by explaining the circumstances which give rise to the question. It is done all the time. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable nember will be 2167

March 25, 1975. Tape 711 RH - 2 permitted to ask his question and if the Chair feels that he is out of order, it will certainly not hesitate in calling him to order. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was just giving the back- ground information for the benefit of the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR.

THOMS: Could the minister inform this honourable House if he has received any requests from the Board for funds to open up the two vacant wings that are at the hospital at the present time and if so, when can the Board expect these funds so that they can hire on the extra personnel to open up these wings which are badly needed at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health. HON. A. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is yes. The answer to the second part of the question, I am not able to tell you when. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier indicate to the House whether or not he is going to make his statement today concerning the ban on "Daily News" advertising? I am asking the Premier is he going to make his statement today? PREMIER MOORES: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, would the Premier indicate whether or not the ban has been lifted on government advertising in "The Daily News". MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all, there is no ban as such on advertising in "The Daily News".

I would say here now that this morning eating breakfast and reading "The Daily News" it was a job to swallow and keep from coming up at the same time because for the second day in a row we saw two editorials of a nature that is almost unbelievable in a daily newspaper in today's society. We have seen the last two days 2168

March 25, 1975. Tape 711 RH - 3 two front page stories, no reference to people like King Faisal being shot,which is a major international event, but certainly lots of coverage of t 11e fact that "The Daily News" are not surviving because of government advertising. Now, Sir, I find the attitude of ''The Daily News" both petulant, irrational and as far as the calibre of the editorial and management staff, one would almost say, I suppose, incompetent. Now, the freedom of t-,e press is something that each newspaper or each

section of th~ media as they may be have full control over. Governments ha~e no control in this part of the world, thank God, on the freedom of the press and the things that they may or may not want to say. However, Sir, the fact is that it seems ironic to me that · c>.ny newspaper has to depend on a government to be propped up to do it·s _job any more than any other business because a newspaper, after all, is a business.

This government's policy is, Sir, to advertise in "The Daily News" as we will be doing the same as we do in "The Evening Telegram", "The Western Star" "The Springdale News", "The Aurora" in Labrador West or what­ ever newspaper there may be. Certainly, the government adver­ tising will be appearing in "The Daily News", but Sir, that and the question of the attitude of the editorial staff of "The Daily News" are two different thinru;. The answer is yes. The government will be advertising again in "The Daily News", but certainly not because of the ability of the editorial staff that p,,ts out that paper. 2169

March 25, 1Cl75 Tape 712 (afternoon) I!l-1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the honourable the Premier. Would the Premier care to indjcate to the House whether or not the directive that has been given to the M1nister of Public Works, and Services concerning this ban has been rescinded or does the directive still stand on the record? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge there is no specific directive as such. I have talked to the acting Minister of Public Works and Services and suggested to him that the advertising in the"Daily News" be carried on as would be normal. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, on another matter. I would like to come around here to my old sparring partner and learned friend, my old college friend, the Minister of Social Services. I would like to ask the minister if his department and the government have completely reversed their attitude towards paying people on strike social assistance and if money has been refundecl recently that was deducted through payrolls last year, and that the government is now back to the same position that was taken by the former Liberal Administration three years ago. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HON. A.

MURPHY (MINISTER OF SOCIAL SERVICES): Oh my, what else is new. Mr. Speaker, I have very much pleasure in answering that question at this particular time. It came up, I think, on a certain open line this morning o~which the member, I think, was a distinguished guest. It relates to refunds that my department made to certain people who had been on strike and had received assistance under the old form that they promised by a promissory note, to repay monies pa1d to them while on strike.

It all arises, Sir, - and I may tell the story now because there is no privacy in the thing - the Buchans strike went on for quite a while. They were one of the parties concerned, Sir. After the scrike had finished there was representation made because of the very tough time these miners had had,and because of the fact that they found it impossible to repay their promissory notes the government in its wisdom decided to forgive them. But in the meanwhile we had four or five other 2170

March 25, M75 Tape 712 (afternoon) unions who had received assistance under the same plan, but had repaid their promissory note. So, we looked at the whole question, Sir, and morally, more morally than anything else, morally we felt that if we forgave (

A) his payments, we had to forgive (B), (C), and (D). I think that it just the story, Rir. We tried since we came in here to treat all people alike. We treat them as human beings with all the rights under the IB-2 law. For that reason, Sir, certain people who had repaid as they had promised monies that they had received in the form of assistance while on strike did receive their money back. I do not think any fairer, Sir, could be done to anybody under the law. MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister.

Will the minister indicate as I asked in the ·first part of my question - perhaps the minister was not listening to the question - does this mean now that the government have completely reversed its decision on their attitude towards paying social assistance to strikers or families of people who are on strike? MF. MURPHY: The law, as far as I know, Sir, unless it has changed since lunch time, the law is that anybody - what is the expression? Willingly, is it? - willingly leaves thier job, will not receive social assistance ~s such.

This h~ppened, Sir, about sixteen months, twelve or fourteen months, with the first question, this happened just over a year Ego. So, there is nothing that exists now, because since January 1, I believe it was, that was brought in, Sir, that those who leave jobs willingly, who leave work and refuse to take work, will not receive social assistance. MR • . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Would the minister then care to indicate to the House whether social assistance now, whether you are on strike or not, really does not make any difference - social assistance •.-1ill be based on need in the future as it was prior to this administrati~n taking over. Would the minister care - MR. 'MURPHY: No, I do not care to answer it. 2171

March 25, 1975 Tape 712 (afternoon) MR. NEARY: The minister does not care to answer it, MR. MURPHY: It is all set out very clear. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, would the minister care to tell us if his department or any department of government is paying the expenses for the member for Bonavista South to be jetting off on Anti-poverty conferences? If so, would the minister care to indicate whether or IB-3 not it would be better to send welfare recipients on these conferences or is he expecting the member to become a welfare recipient rather soon? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

That question will be placed on the Order Paper. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may. Wait now. ~- NEARY: On the Order Paper. The Speaker said on the Order Paper. MR. MURPHY: Wait now. Wait now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. MURPHY: This is a matter of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Privilege over order. MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order,please! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Privilege over order. MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Social Services rose on a point of privilege which takes precedence over a point of order. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, just to get this matter cleared, Sir, before everybody in this province says, because the gentlemen has said in this House that the honourable member for Bonavista South receives money from the Department of Social Services to travel all around. There is no such a thing, Sir, and I absolutely deny it. Order, please! I 2172

March 25, 1975 Tape no, 713 Page 1 - mw absolutely deny it, Sir, There is not one cent being paid to the Member for Bonavista South or any other member to jet all over the world, and I think again it shows the very low down contemptuous attitu~e of the member opposite to put such a thought into people's minds. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bonavista South, MR. MORGAN: Mr, Speaker, on a point of personal privilege. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: (Inaudible) • MR, MORGAN: For the past number of years, I have been actively involved in volunteer groups in this Province, the Human Rights Association, the Citizens' Rights Association, low income groups and now the Anti-poverty Organization of Canada. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, will you tell MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the fact that I am now elected by a convention held in this city of St, John's, elected as a representative of the poor people of this Province, as the Anti-poverty Organization representative for Newfoundland, the fact that I have now been invited to attend two National Conferences, paid for totally by the National Anti-poverty Organization, from grants received from the federal government, number one, through the Secre~ary of State and number two, through the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, so, Mr.

Speaker, I take strong exception to being slandered when I am offering my time and efforts to do my best to help the poor people of this Province, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I would like to ask Your Honour to get the tapes, the verbatim report of the House, Sir, and check the remarks of the Hon. Minister of Social Services and the Hon. Member for Bonavista South, Sir, In both of their remarks, they made accusations and libellous, as far as I am concerned, and slanderous remarks. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 2173

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 713 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: They made an attempt at character assassination, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: What character? MR. NEARY: Mr. -Speaker, this all resulted from a question that I put to the Minister of Social Services. AN HON. MEMBER: Thie is out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is an oral question period. Your Honour did not rule my question out of order. My question was perfectly in order. I asked the minister who was paying for these tripe, if the minister's department was paying for them. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: I certainly did, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want Your Honour to - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: - check the tapes to see, Sir, - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Hpn. Member for Bell Island rose on a point of order. It has taken him a considerable length of time and is uaing up valuable time of the question period in making his point of order. MB.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will end up by asking Your Honour to check to see if there was any unparliamentary language used.

If so, Sir. either one of those gentlemen should retract their statements and apologize to the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: MR.SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I would like - Order, please! The Hpn. Member for Bell Island requested the Chair to check the tapes. That can only be done if a point pf privilege is raised and the Hon. Member for Bell Island rose on a point of order so the Chair - 2174

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 713 Page 3 - DIW MR, NEARY: Hr. Speaker, maybe I rose 011 the wrong point, Sir. I rise now on a point of personal privilege and rather than go through it again, Sir I I ask Your Hpnour to get the tapes to see if there is anything unparliamentary in the re111arks made by the slanderous gentleman from Bonavista South an,d ~he ignoramus 1;rom St. John's Centre, Sir, lilld. if so 1 Hr. Speaker .:. Mll • . SPEAKER: Order, please! Order please!

The Hon, Member for Bell Island rose on a point of order and then changed i:t to a point of privilege, In his re111&rks the Chair certainly considers referring to an honourable member as an ignoramus is certainly unparliamentary, I would ask. the Hon. !fember for Bell Island to withdraw that term. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Jill. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, of course I withdraw it. I mean ;l.gnoramua in the sen.s.e of not lmowing the rules of the House I Sir, as. far as the oral quasti.on ·.period is concerned, AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPE!\KER: Order, please! 217 •·

March 25, 1975 MR. NEARY: Tape 714 (Afternoon) PK - 1 In that sense, Sir, in that sense,! think, the member is ignorant of the orders of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: But I certainly concede, you know, to Your Honour, and I will withdraw it. If Your Honour thinks it is unparliamentary withdraw it. That is why I am asking Your Honour to ask these two gentlemen to withdraw their accusations that they made, Sir. And that is why I am standing on a point of personal privilege and asking Your Honour to check the tapes, because this is what has caused this House - MR. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: Order, please! the decourum - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The honourable Member for Bell Island is proceeding to make a speech and the Chair recognizes another honourable member. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice, Sir, concerning fire hall facilities in St. John's. Would the minister care to indicate if the government have any plans to expand the fire hall facilities in the City of St. John's, the same as they are doing for the police? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman is being slandered. Slandered. The honourable gentleman for Bell Island is being slandered because he has the reputation in this Rouse of being a gentleman who listens carefully to every news item that comes over the radio, he reads every paper that is circulated in the Province, he clips them night and day. And, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that the honourable gentleman for Bell Island has somewhere along the lines read, learned that a new fire station is being built on O'Leary Avenue, I believe work has already started on it, If it has not it is only because the frost is not out of the ground. And this new fire station will be open and in operation during this calendar year barring force majeure and strikes or anything of the kind. And I thank the honourable gentleman for Bell Island for giving me the opportunity to once again make that announcement. 2176

March 25, 1975 Tape 714 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Hear! Hear! A supplementary question, Sir. Mr. Speaker, it so happens that I am so far ·ahead of the honourable gentleman that it is not even funny, Sir. I am well aware of that fire station - !'IR. SPEAK.ER; l1R.. NEARY: Order, please! The question I wo.uld put to the honourable gentleman if he would just listen, Sir, for a minute is, will the government be expanding any of the existing facilities or building larger facilities for the firemen in St. John's, larger buildings)that is what I aE:ked the minister? ~'!R. P.ICKI!AN: NR.

NEARY: Are the government going to put up larger buildings? No, :Mr. Speaker. No? Will that is the question I asked. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Lnbrador North. HR . M. HOOD'WARD: nr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Can the minister tell the House if the Correctional Institute for Native People that have been talked about for Happy Valley-Goose nay will get started this Summer? MR. SPEAKER: !1R. IIICKMAN: The Hon. Minister of Justice. I would like to be able to say yes to that, Mr.

Speaker, but that would be very presumptious on my part because I am sure that the Solicitor-General in Ottawa and the Minister of Indian Affairs, the Hon. Mr. Buchannan would not appreciate it. The position on the prospective Community Correctional Centre in Happy Valley is as follows: the Federal-Provincial Committee on Corrections which was initiated 1 or set up on the initiation of this administration 1 recommended that / or indicated that in Labrador that consi<leration should be given to a community correctional facility)not just for natives but Primarily.

One ofthe priorit y areas and priority recommendations in that Commission was. that a firm of consultants , with experience in ascertaining the correctional needs of the Province and recommending the type of institution,,, be retained. This was accomplished not too long after we received a report of the Commission, and K. L. NcReynolds and Associates of Thornehill, Ontario who have designed and supervised the construction of one or two or maybe more institutions in the North, and one in the 1either the Yukon or Northwest Terriorities and the other in Manitoba where there is a large native population 217 l

~I.arch 2S, 197S Tape 714 (Afternoon) PK - 3 amongst the inmates)did this work, completed it, submitted it to the Solicitor-General of Canada, the Hon. Warren Allmand and myself. In that report one of the recommendations is that there be a eo.mmunity Correctional Centre . This, Mr. Speaker, will involve a great deal of support on the part of the community, which the honourable Member for Labrador North ., I think, is aware wi ll be available. I have met 2178

Harch 25, 1975. Tape 715 with one of the service clubs. I think it is the Kinsmen Club in Happy Valley and they have indicated their willingness to work with the correctional authorities if an when this is done. RH - 1 The responsibility as this honourable House knows for matters involving natives rests in the honourable Judd Buchanan. In January I met wit:: the Solicitor General of Canada and asked and submitted to him that this proposal should - we are now ready, willing and a:le to start talking dollars and cents,not only for that instit1 tion bet at least one other institution recommended in the r,·port.

Ile has undertaken to seek approval in principle from his colleagues. Otherwise there is no point in our meeting and working out grandiose plans if when he goes to his colleagues, when the Solicitor General goes to his colleagues in Ottawa, they say, no,we do not agree of the principle of either total responsibility by the Federal Government for Happy Valley, a joint Federal Provincial institution for the Province. It would be a wasted effort. So, the honourable Mr. Allmand,and I am sure he has no hesitancy and no objection to saying this, has undertaken to make the submission ~or approval in principle.

We have indicated to him that if the plans are completed, that is the conceptual plans, that as soon as he gets this approval in principle we will be ready to talk dollars and cents with him and very anxious to co-operate. May I say the Solicitor General of Canada has shown a great deal of sympathy for this proposal and I am sure that if he has his way the approval in principle that he is seeking will be granted. I also met with the honourable Mr.

Buchanan and there I asked if we could meet to discuss what I think will be certain exciting proposals with respect to the whole concept of the criminal justice system as it relates to the native Canadian livine; in the Province of Newfoundland. He has indicated, he did 2179

March 25, 1975. Tape 715 RH - 2 indicate that as soon as he got back to Ottawa he would have one of his officials contact mine and to my pleasure and delight within a matter of two or three days the communication came and the name of the official who will now work with the officials in my department. So, I simply want to assure this House that as of today, whatever has to be done by the Province in the sense of planning, and the research of the assessment has been completed, Ottawa has shown a great deal of sympathy and I now await with eager anticipation a favourable decision from the Government of Canada.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the }linister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Sir, in connection with the proposed regional water and sewer services that are to be made available in St. John's. Would the minister indicate when the St. John's home builders and the developers can expect a rlecision to be made on this matter so that they can proceed with badly needed 1or they can proceed with plans to build some badly needed houses in the City of St. John's? MR. SPEAKER: and Housing.

The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs HON. B. PECKFORD: I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, whether I understand the question clearly. As a matter of fact, I met with the Home Builders Association this morning. I know you are talking about the Bay Bulls Big Pond. It is difficult to assess right now in talking with the consulting engineers, FENCO, last week just when the water will come on stream. There are two or three different alternatives presently being discussed which have to go before the water and sewer board on April 7. So, until we have that meeting on April 7 with the water and 2180

M:irch 25. 1975. Tape 715 RR - 3 sewer board to j ust assess whic h way we arc going to proceed technically with the Regional Water Sup1>ly, we will not be able to indi cate to City Council who then could indicate to their hoac builders when they could start developin g . To just pursue that a bit further, in a meeting with the hOl'le huilder s this mornin i we discussed this whole matter as well as others doing with housin g in St . John ' s and we are goin t; to r "conven e again to further disucss it after they have had meetings with City Council on Thurs day . AN HONOURABLI! MEMBER: Tha~ is action, boy! HR.

SPl!AKER: The honourable Member for Labrado r Nor th. MR.WOODHARD: Mr. Sl'leaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Industrial Development. I wonder if the minister could inform the Rouse if the plans or the negotiat1.ons with Ottawa with regards to the transfer of mili t ary reserved land in Goose ilay have been finalized and when can we hope to get the transfer to be completed and the community to get on about doin g their j ob of running the community? 2181

March 25, 1975 Tape No. 716 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. Bon. W. DOODY, Minister of Industrial Development: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for the opportunity to comment on that. We have been undergoing a series of frustrating discussions with the Ministry of transport in Ottawa, the Ministry of External Affairs and to a lesser extent the people of DREE with regard to the turnover of facilities in the Goose Bay area.

The member is undoubtedly aware of many of the implications and ramifications since he himself is a member of the Goose Bay Committee. The problem has been one of, to a large extent, dollars and cents and to a lesser extent perhnps 1although it seems to be even more frustrating 1one of jurisdiction. The federal government authorities are somewhat reluctant to pass over title to the lands conditionally which was the original committment which we have had from them.

We have asked them to give us some funding in terms of the capital projects that the province has to undertake in terms of the Goose Bay transfe~ and I am thinking in terms of something like $10 million to $12 million in costs of services that the Province will have to undertake, upgrading of sewers and pavements,of the energy supply, the electricity for the area and other costs. About a year or so ago, maybe a little more than that, I contacted Mr.

Marchand who was then the minister responsible and let him know of our concern and he suggested with·,our concurrence that the thing should be done in sections, that the land and housing in the Goose Bay area should be turned over to the province as soon as the situation could be resolved in terms of these relatively simple things and then as we came to the services, the infrastructure areas, the capital projects and the expensive things 1 that they could be looked at project by project and the costing could be done on a joint federal-provincial situation or resolution could be achieved.

Unfortunately they have run into problems,presumably with Justice Federal or with External Affairs Federal, I am not quite sure which because as I say it is more of a frustration than anything 2182

March 25, 1975 Tape No. 716 NM - 2 else. We have made little or no progress toward that end. We have drafted agreements for joint federal provincial signature. We have gotten literally nowhere with them.

The last communication that we made was a telegram which we sent from our department on February 27, outlining in very ~imple detail the position of the Province, the frustration that the people in Goose Bay were feeling and the fact that just a simple turn over of the land and housing in the area would certainly go a long way toward resolving!! am sure)the feeling in Goose Bay which is that nobody really cares about what happens. The thing is just sitting there. We said we will just let the money part of it sit until such a time as it is resolved.

We can spend a lot of time talking about it if necessary, although really I do not think that that is necessary.

But just for the sake of the people in that area let us turn over now the land and the housing, the apartments, the industrial buildings or these areas which may be used for industrial purposes, warehouses, other vacated buildings and up to today, Sir, we have had on that particular tel~gram, this is just an example of an ongoing series of letters, and telexes and telegrams and representations, we have had a simple acknowledgement from the office of the minister of the receipt of the telegra111 but we have had no irdication of whether or not they are willing to go along with it or to discuss it or to consider it or to do anything else with it.

So as much as I would like to be in a position to indicate to the honourable member, and indeed to all people in this honourable House and to the Province of Newfoundland that the situation is resolved, quite the opposite is true, Sir, despite all the representations and the efforts that we have made to the contrary, to my knowledge we are not all that much closer to solving the problems of the people in the Goose Bay-Happy Valley area than we were practically two years ago when we started the Goose Bay Project group. ORDERS OF THE DAY: 2183

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 717 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Order 4. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on said bill, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! On motion clause 38 carried. MR. CROSBIE: Mr, Chairman, subclause 3 of clause 39, there are a couple of words left out in the last line. It should say, the manner prescribed in paragraph (

h) of - and then add the words - subsection (1) of

section 17, On motion amendment carried, On motion clause 39 as amended carried. On motion clause 40 carried. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, in clause 41, in the third line, there are some words that should now be deleted. I move that we take out the words in the third line, the words being, other than those barred by

section 23, because that

section has now been eliminated. So it would read, incurred by the Corporation may be brought by or against the Corporation. On motion amendment carried. On motion clause 41 as amended carried. MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour this strikes me as a somewhat curious clause. What I am really saying is that I do not understand why it is in here. If there obviously is a reason why it is in here, perhaps the minister can enlighten us, Are we contemplating a change of frequency? MR. BARRY: If I could have a moment, Mr. Chairman, I will just check my notes on that one. There is nothing new in that 1I do not think.

A change of frequency, that is the same section, Mr. Chairman, that is being carried on from the old act, the Power Commision Act, the Power Corporation Act, which was passed last June and is contained 2184

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 717 Page 2 - mw in this act as well. It is a power which the Corporation believes is necessary. It is not that it is contemplated that there is any specific - MR. MURPHY: Any fifty cycle left? _!{R. BARRY: - area today - there is some fifty cycle, Buchans, for example. But it is not because it is contemplated but in the event that it does prove necessary, Mr. Chairman. It is a power which a corporation should have. MR. ROBERTS: Buchans - (inaudible). MR. BARRY: It is an area around the Buchana area. MR. MURPHY: MR. BARRY: I understand. MR, ROBERTS: MR. BARRY: MR.

ROBERTS: Corner Brook turned over. There are outlying areas around the Buchans area, Buchans is the only substantial town. Buchans is the only substantial town, I believe. On motion clause 42 carried. On motion clause 43 carried. Mr. Chairman, I do not object to clause 44 but I find it curious that clause 42 and clause 43 say, in effect, the Corporation, you know, may do certain things and has the power to change frequencies and so forth and so on. Clause 44 says that no action shall be brought after a period of one year.

I just do not understand, if by clause 42 and clause 43 certain powers are given to the Corporation or assured to it by legislation, then clause 44 says, no action can be brought irrespect of the use of those powers after a period of a year. Well, you know, if it is lawful to do something, how could an action justify - an action could lie.· I suppose somebody could always go down and swear out a writ, you know, and it would then go before a court and the court would strike it out on the grounds that there was no cause of action. But I just do not understand why a one year limitation is put in. 2185

March 25, 1975 MR. BARRY: Tape 718-(afternoon) Well, again, Mr. Speaker, I have not had that specific point brought to my attention before, but I would assume that the fact that the IB-1 power. as given to the Corporation to change frequency, does not necessarily mean that this can be done without compensation in the event that there are either agreements or possibly even understandings held out to customers prior to the changing of frequency. It may be 1 in other words, that there may be actions lie against the Corporation in the event that there is a change of frequency either under contract or tort law.

It is desirable that this not be sort of hanging, that any uncertainty arising from a change of frequency remain hanging like a cloud over the Corporation for an extended period of time. I am always reluctant to see these limitation periods in there, but I am told that to give a clear picture as to the potential liabilities of the Corporation when bond issues arise and so on, that this is the type of clause that is desirable in order to give certainty as to what the potential liabilities of the Corporation are. I do not foresee this as being of any immediate current application, but again if we have the

section with respect to the change of frequency in there, Mr. Chairman, as I say, presumably this could lead to potential actions being brought against the Corporation. It is desirable to have these actions brought as quickly as possible after a frequency change. MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I think I follow what the minister says. But then that gives rise to a further question which I suppose really is the whole point of it, but I wanted him to approach it the way he was good enough to. There is nothing unusual about limitation periods.

Indeed there is a general statute of limitations that govern actions and different types and different periods. Here in (44), Your Honour, we are having a one year bar against actions arising out of some acts or some omissions by thr Corporation with respect to the powers under (42) and (43). Back in (41) the Corporation have adopted a ·general two year rule. Now, I have 2186

March 25, 1975 Tape 718 (afternoon) two questions. First of all, why do we need special legislation as opposed to the general law, the general limitations principles which apply to all actions in this province? Why do we need special rules here? Secondly, if we are going to have a special rule, and I w.111 concede there may b·e circumstances which justify it, but I ask the minister to indicate what in his mind these are - why is it two years for certain types of actions and one year for others? Is there a reason or is this just a purely arbitrary thing that some draftsman has dreamed up?

I appreciate the minister's mental processes, I think, when he says it was in a previous hill, but there are many things in the statutes of this Province that have got therP. that should n~t be there now. Either conditions have changed or they should never have been there to begin with. What often happens is a draftsman is given very general instructions by a minister or by cabinet or by a cabinet committee, and out of this he produces a fully fleshed bill that has in it all sorts of clauses, usually the ones, Your Honour, found at the tail end of

an act that give the most Draconian and marvellous powers, you know, that really nobody gave any instructions in respect of them. Just the draftsman puts them in because the instinct of most draftsmen, I have found, is to give the government all the power they can and to reduce both the power of the citizen and the power of the House. Well, that is fine hut we should not do it without knowing what they are doing.

So, could the minister indicate why we have special limitations rules for actions against this Corporation, and secondly, why we are to have inconsistent rules in respect of any special rules there may be? MR. RARRY: Mr. Chairman, this is another one of those sections which has been carried forward from previous legislation. It is a situation where, as far as Jam concerned, there is no particular problem that I am aware of, and I have not been mac1e a.rare of any particular problem with that section. I do not consider it a IB-2 useful exercise to direct the law officers of the crown or the solicitors 2181

March 25, 1975 Tape 718 (afternoon) IB-3 of the Corporation to engage in an extensive search of the history or the

section or an extensive analysis of the best possible approach to this particular area. We have had a

section here that has been in two previous acts. It has not caused any problems that I am aware of. There has not been any public outcry. 2188

March 25, 1975 Tape 719 (Afternoon) PK - 1 As far as I am concerned it is not likely to cause any problems in the future, it may be useful in the future, and for that reason it is difficult for the proposed legislation. Now the Hon. Leader of the Opposition asks w~y have a different limitation period in

Section 44 than in

Section 41? Well

Section 41 deals with any actions that may be brought against the Corporation for any matter whatsoever

whereas

Section 44 deals with actions brought specifically resulting from a change of frequency. And

whereas, Mr. Chairman, it is, I submit, reasonable to expect any potential litigant to start action within one year in the case of a change of frequency, a very significant event, that an event which in the past has from the reading that I have done at times created a fair amount of controversy in this Province and in this honourable House. I believe they had a fairly extraordinary session of this honourable House prior to the decision to standardize the frequency across the Province and to change the areas in Central Newfoundland and on the West Coast from fifty cycles to sixty cycles.

It was a fairly emotional and controversial and extensive undertaking at the time, Mr. Chairman. At the present ti~ it is something that we have accepted as a matter of force that sixty cycles is the obvious way to go, but we had previously in Newfoundland a situation where, I believe it was because of the British influence, the influence of the managers of our pulp and paper mills in Corner Brook and Grand Falls where they brought in the British or the European fifty cycle frequency - MR. MURPHY: The old A.N.D. Company, MR.

BARRY: and you then had a · lack of unifonnity across the Province• You did not have any standard frequency which, of course, has a significant affect as far as appliances are concerned and so on. So that when this decisiqn was made to move to sixty cycles,back in the fifties, ''Ank" I believe - HR. MURPHY: MR. BARRY: AN HON; ME}IBER; !IR. MURPilY; was. Only about - In the mid-sixties, the early sixties before Bay D'Espoir - Inaudible. That is right. I think after the 1962 election)it 2189

March 25, 1975 Tape 719 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. BARRY: It was a fairly significant and controversial and emotional thing. I think the belief was, and I think the same situation will occur nowJthat a change of frequency in an area is of such significance that it is unlikely that any individual is going to sleep on his rights, if he is being damaged or harmed, or feels that he has a cause of action in any way then he is going to be immediately made aware of it - and one year 1or one year limitation period is there for a reasonable period to have to limit this type of action.

But in the more general type of action, Mr. Chairman, I submit, that two years is more of a standard thing. You have your two years for your motor vehicle accidents. You have your two years for breach of contract, I believe. Mr. Chairman can give me some advice on this - I have forgotten my Statute of Limitation, it is so long since I practiced law. I would not recommend to anybody here just saying let us tear out these sections altogether and rely on the Statute of Limitations, because the Statute of Limitations, in my experiencer -.. Mr. Chairman, is a very confusing piece of legislation.

It is legislation that we have had with us - what,for hundreds of years? brought over from the British jurisprudence. MR. HICKMAN: MR. BARRY: MR. HICKMAN: MR. BARRY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. BARRY: MR. ROBERTS:' MR. BARRY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. BARRY: It is new to this province. It is new here but it ~as - New in Englarul. Well it is over one hundred years ago - No, it is not more than a century old. But, but - - experience and Lord Campbell's Act allowed - Lord Campbell's Act was in the 17th - 18th century? 1840 in round numbers. Anyhow, 2190

March 25, 1975. Tape 720 RH - 1 one of the problems that has arisen, Mr. Chairman, · and what makes it so confusing is that in the process of incor­ poration, bringing over the British statute in North America, piece~ have been left out and there have been changes and even a very fundamental - MR. ROBERTS: Discovered one this morning that you cannot - you can unreasonably withhold consent on the assignment of a leasehold interest in this Province.

MR, BARRY: Even, I guess, the most basic limitation period that comes to mind for the average man in the street, the squatter's rights, there is, in my opinion and some more experienced lawyers do not have the same doubt, but in my opinion there is a lot of doubt as to - MR. ROBERTS: You mean the twenty and sixty - 11R. BARRY: Right - as to whether there is any such thing as a limitation period against the Crown in the Province because of the fact that in incorporati~ the legislation in Newfoundland a significant

section of the old British statute was omitted and left out. MR. ROBERTS: Omitted by intent or by - MR. BARRY: Who knows? That is one of the problems that you have with legislation. We do not know why it was changed. JIB.. ROBERTS: Well, the way we whiz legislation through here, you sometimes wonder how many of those we are going to bequeath to our heirs. 1ffi.. BARR~: ------ Mr. Chairman, this again, I submit, is not a fundamental point.

I can understand the Leader of the Opposition's queries on it, but I would submit that it is not unreasonable to have a shorter limitation period for actions arising out of a significant occurence such as change of frequency which insures, I think, that nobody is going to be penalized for sleeping on their rights. This is such a significant occurence that everybody in the Province could be expected to be aware of it and for that 2191

March 25, 1975. Tape 720 RH - 2 reason the one year limitation is set there rather than the more standard two years in the previous general section. MR. ROBERTS: If it is two years in running do,:,m action, it is pretty significant. You know, if you are run down, you got two years to get out your writ. I do not see why it is not two years here. On motion, clause 44 through 46 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Shall clause 47 carry? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, only one comment on (47).

I mean these are the usual regulations clauses that say in effect that no matter what anything else in the bill says, the Cabinet can make the regulations they see fit. The only request I would make1 or suggest they make in respect to (47) which deals specifically with pensions is the - it is not an amendment, it should not be in, but I would like an undertaking from the minister that it will be tabled in the House details of such pension plan as the corporation, when I say may establish, I have no doubt they will establish one.

I am not particularly concerned about, you know, any arrangements made with any individual. If we have any questions about an individual they will be raised in the proper time and at the proper place, but what does concern me is the situation which arose in the mid-1960's when government finally began to get into the pension business. We had a civil service pension plan that I believe was introduced by the _CoDDD.ission of Government that represented the modern thinking of 1938 but was really quite outdated by the time 1968 came. We now have quite a good pension plan.

When we began to look at these pension plans we began to discover that the crown corporations, the little empires that surround the duchy of the government, these little empires each had their own pension plan. They offered significantly different 1 and in most cases significantly better benefits, all of them 2192

March 25, 1975. Tape 720 RH - 3 funded out of the same pu':llic trough. Here we are now, we are creating a great monster of a corporation that may well have a thousand or more employees that will be responsible for millions of dollars a year and quite rightly they are going to have the power to make pension plans. There is no requirement in here that the - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry'? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. t!R. ROBERTS: Oh, gosh! Yes.

The Housin~ Corporation had a group life plan that was the envy of - and nobody in here r~alized it until one day the civil service came in and asked if they could have a group life plan and they were told, well, that was a matter for negotiations and you know, be negotiated out. After all, it is a benefit in the same way as a salary increase or anything else. We were told that, well, the Housing Corporation already had a group life plan, a medical plan, an income maintenance plan, some - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. 1lOBERTS: Yes, well all civil servants have a guaranteed~ it h only the politicians that do not. A.'l .)1 lNOUP.ABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. 0.0BERTS: The Power Corporation'? Well, you know, this -- ---- just proves, I guess, the point of what I am saying. The Minister of Sccial Services has supported it and sustained it. There should at least be a requirement that the House be informed in a formal way. An undertaking for 2193

March 25 , 1975 Tape No. 721 NM - 1 the minister would be adequate for these purposes, that details of a pension plan will be made public and then if there is some difference between that and the Public Service Pension Plan, if that difference is not justifiable then there would be an opportunity to debate it and to discuss it and to defend it or otherwise, as the case might be.

It is not a picayune question at all because I suppose in most employee-employer relationships these days, pension plans and the other plans referred to, sick plans and group life and all these are really a very significant part of the re111Uneration which the employee expects to get in return for his services. Certainly ~hen you come to compensating the higher paid officials they can be of immence significance in getting money into the hands of these people. So, you know I do not object to it. The Corporation have to have the power and this is the sort of thing that it is reasonable to let the Cabinet rule upon.

If they are satisfied and they approve that is enough. That is the power we can delegate but I ask the minister if we could have an assurance that he will make public the plan whenever it is adopted and I assume that will not be very long because if I know anything about the way public servants work, about the first item on the internal agenda of the new Hydro Corporation will be their pension plan and when that is done then they will turn to some other items perhaps of interest to the more general public. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Chairman, I see no problem in keeping honourable members informed with respect to pension plans or any other significant developments with respect to the Hydro Corporation and I am sure this is something that it would be very, even if government wanted to be, somewhat difficult to keep as a state secret. The invasion of Normandy they managed but I do not think - HR. ROBERTS: The invasion of Normandy was made public at the appropriate moment, at three o'clock in the morning on June 6, 1944. MR.

BARRY: Well, until the Premier goes down to see the Lieutenant- Governor I hope that we will not have any such surprise to lay on the honourable Leader of the Opposition. 2194

March 25, 1975 Tape No. 721 NM - 2 MR, ROBERTS: Today? Today? AN HON. MEMBER: The sooner the better. MR. ROBERTS : Open line on CJON this morning, I am worried now, they say we are going to win. MR. DOODY: Twenty-one to eighteen. MR. ROB.ER.TS : And the honourable gentleman's wife called four times for the Liberals and seven times for the Tories. MR. DOODY: Inaudible. On motion clause (48) carried. On motion clauses (49) and (50) carried. MR. ROBERTS: Clause (51) Your Honour the choo-choo was going down the track rapidly.

The only question here why the retroactive clause, Obviously the govenunent intend to proclaim it with effect from a date bel!ween now or whenever His Honour gives assent, as I assume His Honour will;and sometime -between now and January 1, again there mnst be a reason for it. It is not unusual to have retroactive clauses in legislation but it is certainly not the usual thing. MR. BARRY: Well, Mr. Speaker, in our more serene moments - MR. RO'BERTS: Does the honourable gentleman have one? MR. BARRY: In the isolation of the Cabinet Room we - AN HON. MEMBER: The ivory tower. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, and it is isolated down there. MR. BARRY: You know the scenario that contemplated that all honourable members were reasonable men, we forgot about the honourable members opposite. It was a mistake there Your Honour, and we contemplated that this act could have possibly gotten through the previous session - MR. ROBERTS: It could have if the honourable gentleman had seen fit to introduce it and debate it. MR. BARRY: If you recall, this was on the Order Paper, Mr. Chairman, in the previous session.

At one stage we were looking at the possibility of having the act apply as of January 1, 1975 so as to have the books of the Corporation start from January 1, 1975, have the Corporation go on a calendar year which the Corporation put forth as being highly desirable from their point of view. I have to confess that - 219ti

March 25, 1975 Tape No . 721 NM - 3 MR . ROBERTS: How about t he gove rnment's point of view? MR. BARRY: I was just going to m.ention. I have to confess tha t this was a matter of some debate as to the desirability of the Corp oratio n being on a diffe r ent year end than the Province itself was. I forget how we r eso lved it or reconciled it. We caltle to an amicable solution anyhow . 2196

March 25, Tape no. 722 Page 1 - mw But this may be a new point right now, Mr. Chairman, since we are into, what is it, March 25. This, as far as I can recall, Mr. Chairman, this is the reason this was put in with the possibility of having the books of the Corporation start of from - MR. ROBERTS: Do you still intend to have the books begin on January 1? MR. BARRY: To be quite honest with you, I have not been in communication with them on that point. I do not know if there is any great advantage to be gained from it for this year anyway. MR. ROBERTS: Why not just drop the proclamation clause period? MR.

BARRY: What is to be lost by having it in there? There is no great harm. MR. ROBERTS: What is· to be lost by taking it out? Yesterday the honourable gentleman was knocking down amendment after amendment on the grounds it was superfluous. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I submit that the one who proposes a change in the status quo must show some reason for it. MR. ROBERTS: That is the election campaign you are talking about now, and we will propose good reasons. On motion clause 51 carried. Motion that the committee report having passed Bill No. 1 with amendments, carried.

On motion that the committee rise and report having passed Bill No. 1 with amendments and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole reports that they have considere4 the matters to them referred and report having passed Bill No. 1 with amendments and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted. On motion committee ordered to sit again presently. On motion amendments read a first and second time On motion Bill No. 1 ordered read a third tjme presently by leave. 219'1

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 722 Page 2 - mw On motion a bill, "An Act Respecting The Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro-Electric Corporat.ion, 11 read a third time, ordeTed passed and title be as on the Order Paper, MR. CROSBIE: Motion 4, Mr. Speaker, Conm!ittee of the Whole ' on certaiu resolutions and Interim Supply. MR,, SPEAKER: Motion No. 4, the Hon. Minister of Finance. HON. H. R. V, EARLE (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I have a message from His llonour, the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. SP:E.AICER: March 24, 1975, the Hon, Minist·er of Fil1allce.

I, the Administrator of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit estimates of sums required fo.r the public semce of the Province for the year ending 31st. March, 1976 by way of Interim Supply, and in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867, as amended, I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly, signed by the Administrator. On motion that the !louse resolve itself into CDllllllittee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair, 2198

March 25, 1975 Tape 723 (afternoon) IB-1 A bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thousand Nine F1mdred And ';eventy- Six And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service." MR.. CRAIRMAN: The honourable the Minister of Finance. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that it is for $92,030,000 which is exactly six/fifty-seconds of the estimates for this coming year.

That represents six weeks of interim supply which should allow this Rouse ample time to pass the estimates so that we will be in a position to carry on the business of the government in the period while the estimates are being discussed. Now, the break down of this is given in the bill, department by department. If somebody wants to do a bit of arithmetic and divide it by six/fifty-seconds, they will find that this supply is right through the piece. The details of course are contained in the estimates which have already been distributed to the House and we will be dealing with them department by department. _MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, as the minister has said this is purely an interim supply bill to give the government a little walking aro1md money between now and the period when we assume and we hope the estimates and the supply bill will have been approved by the House. We have no objection to it. Six/fifty-seconds - you know, it is six weeks worth of supply. I notice it is not broken down evenly by department. It is not six/fifty-seconds of the requirement for each department. The total may be six/fifty-seconds, but in some departments it is - I am sorry. AN HONOtrnABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBF~TS: In any event, the fact remains that the estimates are before the House and we are debating them as extensively as the rules will permit. So, on our side we see no need to have a great deal of discussi0n of this bill because essentially it is almost a procedural thing so the government can issue the pay checks and pay their bills and do the other things that they have to do in the period between now and the 2199

March 25, 1975 Tape 723 (afternoon) IB-2 middle of May by which stage~presumably)the government will have obtained supply from the Rouse. On motion, Head of Expenditure 1 through to Head of Expenditure XX, carried. On motion clause (1) carried. 2200

March 25, 1975 Tape 724 (Afternoon) On motion clauses (2) and (3) carried. On motion Recitals and

Preambles carried. On motion title carried. On motion

preamble to the Resolution carried. On motion title carried. On motion Bill and Resolution without amendment, carried. On motion that the Committee rise report having passed the Resolution and ask leave to sit again, Y.r. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report that they have adopted a certain Resolution and recommend that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same. MR.

SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole reports that they have considered the . matters to them referred and directs him to report that they have adopted a certain Resolution and recommend that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same and ask leave to sit again. PK-1 On motion report received and adopted, Conmittee directed to sit again presently by leave, carried. On motion Resolution read a first time. On motion Resolution read a second time.

On motion a bill , "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Seventy-Six And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service, " read a first time, ordered read a second time now by leave. On motion bill read a second time ordered read a third time now by leave. On motion bill read a third time ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. CROSBI:C: Motion (3), Your Honour, Supplementary Supply. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a message from His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. 2201

March 25, 1975 Tape 725 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. Speaker: March 24, 1975 the Hon. Minister of Finance. I the Administrator of the Province of Newfoundland transmit Supplementary Estimates of the sum that is required for the Public Service of the Province for the year ending the 31st. March, 1975 by way of Supplementary Supply. And in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867 as amendeg I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly. Signed the Administrator. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please! A bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Seventy-Five And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, in introducing this Resolution and Bill I only have to say that it is for $42,046,000 which is covered by all the special warrants which were issued during the year. These warrants were distributed to the House approximately a week ago and have been in members possession.

They are for monies which were provided for various departments as covered by these warrants. And that the total is for $42,046,000 and I have much pleasure in moving the adoption of this Bill. AN HON. MEMBER: .MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: Hear! Hear! The Member for Bell Island. Mr. Chairman, we will agree, of course, to this Bill being passed without too much delay in the Committee. I do not think the minister made it quite clear what this $42 million is for, although he did mention that the warrants were tabled there a week or so ago.

This $42 million is money that is being spent over and above what they estimated in the various departments. And later on, Mr. Chairman, both in the budget debate and when we are going through the item by item analysis of the estimates we will come upon some of these things again, 2202

March 25, 1975 Tape 725 (Afternoon) PK - 2 and then we can have - we will probably go into some of these matters in greater detail at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the Resolution carry? On motion Resolution carried. On motion Heads of Expenditure II to XX carried. 2203

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 726 Page 1 - mw On motion clause 1 carried. On motion recitals and

preambles carried. On motion title carried. Motion that the committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. On motion

preamble to the resolution carried. Resolution: To be submitted to a Connittee of the Whole House in relation to the grant of Supplementary Supply to Her Majesty. On motion title carried. On motion that the committee rise and report having passed a certain resolution and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Co111111ittee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report that they adopted a certain resolution and recommend that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same and ask leave to sit again. MR.

SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of Supply reports that they have considered the matters to them refer .red and have directed them to report having adopted a certain resolution and recommend that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same. On motion report received and adopted. On motion committee ordered to sit again presently. On motion resolution read a first and second time.

On motion,a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of M;lrch One Thousand Nine Hundred And Seven~y-Five And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service," read a first time, ordered read a second time now by leave. On motion bill read a second time ordered read a third time now by leave. On motion bill read a third time ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. 2204

Marer 25, 1975 Tape 727 (afternoon) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The District Courts Act." MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. HICK}fAN: This is a fairly formal bill. There is before the House of Commons, the Parliament of Canada, a bill to amend the Judges Act, which provides for supernumerary judges for dis~rict courts and county court judges. These two sections correspond with the provisions in the Judges Act and has been approved by the r.overnment of Canada. I move second reading. MR.

SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a second time? IB-1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is on his way in. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBE'llTS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the government for their courtesy in not informing they were going to be doing legislation. AN HONOURABLE 'l-1EWIF.R: Filli.ng in. MR . ROBERTS: Well, they can talk about filling in, but, I mean, I would just like to thank the Minister of Justice for his courtesy and his colleagues as well. The bill itself is fairly straightforward.

It provides for the creation of the supernumerary judges, We now have, I think, five district court judges in Newfoundland with provision for two more. This would create extra judges. It would give us a lot of judges. I did not hear all of the minister's remarks. I am not quite sure why - the minister may well have dealt with this in second reading - "!R. HICKMAN: If the honourable gentleman would want to yield I will - MR. ROBERTS: Well, I will yield, but I would like to hear just - the minister may have said it in second reading. I did not hear all of his speech. MR.

HICKMAN: If the honourable gentleman will yield - MR. ROBF.RTS: I shall yield gladly, Sir. MR. HICK~.AN: This bill~as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, arises out of the 2205

March 25, 1975 Tape 727 (afternoon) IB-2 fact that there is now before parliament a bill to amend the Judges Act to provide for supernumerary judges in the district and county courts similar to the provisions applying to the superior courts of Canada. In order for that provision of the act to apply to any particular province, provincial legislation is required.

This simply provides - this will create the position that when the Judges Act of Canada, the amendment is passed, the district court judge upon reaching the age of, I think, it is fifteen years on the bench or the age of sixty and not less than ten years, can if he so desires, elect to become a supernumerary judge.

There he will be on the - if it is a supernumerary judge from any one of the five district courts in the province, his successor and occupier of that office would be in a position, should the need arise, to ask him to come back and try a case where a judge disqualified himself or a judge is ill or is on vacation. That is all there is to it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister. The minister has not told us anything we did not know because what he has told us is what the bill would do. What I had hoped he would tell us is why the government brought in the bill.

Well, I understand that at least two of the judges, two of the five district court judges we have in Newfoundland today, may possibly become supernumerary judges. I am sorry, the minister is looking quizzical. MR. HICKMAN: You may be right in - MR. ROBERTS: Well, you know, I have no privileged information on it. I have certain information which I would assume is widely available to the profession of which I am a subscribing but non-p,acticing member. I have no objection to the bill itself, but I think it should be noted we are getting a lot of judges in Newfoundland now.

We have four on the high court, the Supreme Court. We have five district court judges at present. I believe Ottawa are proposing to create two more. That is seven. That will give us seven district court judges, the possibility of seven supernumerary district court judges, three appellate judges, men or women, well)men in this csse. There are no 2206

March 25, 1975 Tape 727 (afternoon) women are eligible at this point. Men who will sit on the court of appeal. That is twenty-one judges possibly. Then we are not countinR the so called provincial judges, the magistrates, nor are 220·1 IB-3

March 25, 1975. Tape 728 FJI - 1 we counting the possibility of supe~umerary judges on the Supreme Court, But we have no supernumerary judges on the Supreme Court at present. Indeed, it might be very useful if we did because the court work/ I understand is fsllinp; behind because of the fact that as yet no successor has been appointed for the late Mr. Justice Higgins. A supernumerary judge would be useful. We are getting a lot of judges. That may be good news for the lawyers or it may not. The bar of Newfoundland is now the largest it has ever been in numbers.

I would think that what - 150, 160 members of the bar? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Close to it, I think. MR. ROBERT_S : 150, 160 - So, all I can say is for those of my brethren who are both learned and who aspire to the judicial heights of the bench that the odds are pretty good because when this bill goes through giving an extra seven positions available; assuming the Parliament of Canada approves the money necessary and the Government of Canada are willing to appoint the judges, that means the odds are about one in seven that a member of the bar will get to the bench.

I would think every lawyer in the Province, Sir, will rejoice this night at the beneficence of the Minister of Justice thus increasing the odds. I look around my honourable colleagues, the learned gentlemen in the House, the Member for St. Jolm's East who is available these days, the Member for Burin who has been available for some time, the Member for St. John's South who, I would think, has no aspirations for judicial office but has aspirations for another branch of government, the Member for St. John's West - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: No, he is certainly not available for this.

I could look around the House, a nUDJber of gentlemen who are present, 2208

March 25, 1975. Tape 728 RH - 2 but who are not members of the House. I think it is encouraging, Sir, that one in seven members of the bar in Newfoundland can expect at any given point in time to be a judge. We may be the most over-judged people in Canada. I do not have the figures for the other Provinces of Canada, Sir, but I would doubt whether any Province of Canada has quite as many judges as we do on a per capita basis.

The Province of Ontario has 6,000 or 7,000 members at the bar and I am morally certain there are not 1,000 1udcze.A r.ounting the supernumerary judges or 1,600 judicial positions available in the Province of Ontario . There are about twenty men on their hif',h court and about eight or nine on their court of appeal and then, I suppose, the county courts, which we call ,listrict courts, there may be 100 of those and even double them for supernmneraries. You rnay have 400 or 500 men.

So, I say to my brethren at the bar, Sir, that the odds in Newfoundland are twice as good and I would hope there would be an influx of lawyers into Newfoundland for the benefit of my colleague from Bell Island who has such a regard for members of my profession. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. }fR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Chairman, if I were the Member for Bell ----- Island, I would not press this Law Society to be an honourary member.

The honourable gentleman may have been intimately associated with the bar, my friend from Bell Island, Sir, but he has been honourably associated as well with it and that is a proud distinction. We support the bill but, I must say, of all the problems facing Newfoundland today, I would not have thought this one was very high on the list. If we intend to have a couple of judges who have indicated that they intend to or would like to l ~ave the active bench and to become supernumerary judges and all that that entails, well sobeit.

But I must say, of all the problems facing Newfoundland or even of all the problems facing the 2209

March 25, 1975. Tape 728 RH - 3 administration of justice in this Province, I would have thought this particular measure was very far down any list of priorities. As is well known1and I make no secret of it and honourable gentlemen opposite try to throw it up to it as if they feel somehow it is reprehensible; I do not practice the bar of this Province, either the bar in the courthouse or any other bar in this Province, and I am not intimately familiar with the workings of the judicial system.

But I understand from the lawyers with whom I occasionally have converse from time to time that there are considerable problems.

There are considerable problems jn having appeals heard in Newfoundland, considerable problems in getting transcripts, not in lack of judges or lack of judgment or slowness in rendering judgment, but considerable difficulty apparently in going through the techniques of the technical aspects of having transcripts prepared because, of course, before a matter can go to appeal) Your Honour, an appeal is not a trial • An appeal is a recon­ sideration of the evidence and the materials involved in the original trial.

That involves transcripts of the oral testimony and the oral testimony, the oral evidence can be a very large part of the evidence introduced in a trial. Well, I understand the very real difficulties in having that information prepared so that appeals can 2210

March 25, 1975 Tape No. 729 NM - 1 go forward. I understand also there is a considerable amount of difficulty with a number of other aspects of the administration of justice in this Province. I regret that the minister bas shirked his duty and has not dealt with those other aspects. The Law Society I understand have submitted a number of briefs to him. I understand that individual solicitors and members of the Bar have approached him to make representations.

"The Evening Telegram" has a ritual editorial which comes out every six and one half weeks about the need for a royal COlDlllission to investigate the ad~inistration of justice in Newfoundland. While I hold no brief either for the "Telegram" or for ritual editorials, an idea should not be scorned just because it is in the editorial columns of "The Evening Telegram." Perhaps some consideration should be given to that. I do know that in many parts of Newfoundland, Sir, and this act will do nothing to help -this, our people do not have access as they should to ~he system of justice.

We have, thanks to Ottawa, got a criminal aid . scheme that is pretty good. It is pretty good for the lawyers and it is pretty good for their clients. I understand now that any person, any citizen of the Province who is charged with a serious criminal matter, you know)can expect to be defended by a legal counsel and if he does not have the money to pay the just fees then the Legal Aid Society under their rules will pay them, in certain cases in civil action. But we do not have full access to the civil law under a legal aid system.

Even more than that, Sir, the distribution of lawyers in this Province is such that many citizens of the Province effectively have no access to the service of a lawyer. Oh they can get a lawyer if they are in court on a criminal charge and facing the possibility of a term in jail or something very se~ious like that, they can get a lawyer if they are relatively well off and willing to pay the price to have a lawyer come to some community where no lawyer is in practice. But if a person in Twillingate, in the constituency of my friend, the Member for Twillingate, wishes legal advice he really 2211

March 25, 1975 Tape No, 729 NM - 2 cannot get it unless he is willing to go to Gander, the nearest solicitor and I think there is only one firm practicing full time in Gander, Mr. Richard Eason and his associates. Marystown I think has one firm only, a branch of the legal octopus participated in by my friend for Placentia West, the firm of Thoms, Fowler, etc., etc. The Happy Valley area or Labrador has resident lawyers only in Labrador and there is one firm or two in Labrador West, again difficulties of access. MR. CROSBIE: That is not relevant. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, honourable gentlemen opposite say it is not relevant. It is completely relevant. The government are bringing before the House, a bill, "An Act To Amend The District Courts Act," and I am giving my thoughts that this bill which purports to improve the administration of justice by creating additional judges, I am saying there are more important things that could be done and if the government are going to do this sort of thiag then let them bring in a scheme to try to encourage lawyers to settle in the smaller communities. The Northern Peninsula, Sir, between Deer Lake and St. Anthony, 300 miles. MR.

CROSBIE: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: You know there are certain rules, Mr. Speaker, as to debate in this House , Now we are debating an "Act To Amend The District Courts Act," to provide for supernumerary judges, that is 1 judges who can be styled judge of the District Court and they can exercise the powers but in effect they are retired. Now that is the whole sum and substance and the principle - AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR, CROSBIE: The sum and substance and the principle of the bill and all that is relevant to discuss, Mr.

Speaker, is the - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! 2212

March 25, 1975 Tape No. 729 NM - 3 MR. CROSBIE: Is the principle of this bill which is whether there should be supernumerary judges or whether there should not be supernumerary judges under "The District Courts Act," and all this comment and talk about lawyers practicing in Marystown, practicing here and so .on, it is all irrelevant, and I ask Your Honour to keep the honourable gentlemen relevant to the principle of this simple amendment which deals with supernumerary judges. MR. ROBERTS: If I-may speak to that point of order, I submit that I was adhering well within the rules of relevancy.

The rule of relevancy would mean that we discuss the principle of this bill and the principle of this bill ii; to amend "The District Courts Act," and I am giving some reasons why in supporting the bill I do not feel that it goes far enough and I submit that that is relevant and I should be allowed to continue without harassment from the honourable gentleman from St. John's West. May I proceed, Sir, or does Your Honour wish - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: Not having a copy of the said bill b·efore me I am perhaps not in a position to say whether the honourable Leader of the Opposition was relevant to the bill or not. It appears as if he may not have been as relevant perhaps as he should be to the principle of the bill• However,he will be permitted to contin¥e. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you Your Honour. I had largely concluded my remarks with the effect of these interjections and harassments by - if Your Honour would like a copy I would be glad to let Your Honour have a glance at my copy, 2213

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 730 Page 1 - mw I had hoped that Your Honour would have been supplied with bills. AN HON. MEMBER-: : Are you questioning the Speaker's ruling? MR, ROBERTS : AN HON. MEMBER: No, who is - (Inaudible), AN HON. MEMBER: breath. ne a man and never mind muttering under your MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, apparently the House Leader cannot accept the rulings but as I was saying, I had largely finished what I had intended to say on the bill, The effect of these interjections by the House Leader is to prolong debate and not to speed it up.

But if he wishes to interject, let him interject away as it were. I do not feel that this is a priority item in the administration of justice in this Province, I think that there are a number of things which could be done, which would be of infinitely more use to the people of this Province, to the bar of this Province and above all to the system of justice in this Province.

That is what we should be concerned with in this House, We should not be concerned only with minor technicalities but rather with ensuring that we have in this Province a system of justice which is effective, which is practical and which is accessible to all of our people, We do not have it now. This bill will do nothing at all, nothing at all, to make it more accessible. It will not provide the people of Newfoundland with a better system of justice. All it will provide is a few more judges. Well, well and good. I have no objection to a few more judges.

It is good for the judges but I would like to see something that is good for Newfoundland as well, MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable minister speaks now, he closes the debate, ne Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I hope the Minister of Justice, Sir, did not think that I was going to let this opportunity slide by without having 2214

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 730 Page 2 - mw a few words about the minister's department and about the principle of this bill, Sir. Mr. Speaker, as the minister indicated in the beginning, Sir, this bill will amend the District Courts Act to provide for the additional office of supernumerary judge for each District Court, Well, Sir, this may or may not be a good thing. I look at it, Sir, fairly objectively. I look at it in a positive way, I hope, Sir, that it will not be just ~a move that is being !lade by the Minister of Justice to create another little soft>cushy situation, I hope, Mr.

Speaker, that if this bill is passed by the honourable House and that we have one or two or three or four or ten supernumerary judges in this Pwovince that it will speed up justice in this Province.

Your Honour is probably aware, if Your Honour is not aware I am sure that some of the members on the government benches, especially the more learned members on the government benches, are aware, Sir, that there is a terrific delay in getting people before court in this Province. ttThether it is a private prosecution, Sir, or whether it is somebody who is being prosecuted by the Crown or by the police under the Criminal Code or what have you, civil cases~ :ft seems, Mr.

Speaker, that it takes years and years some times before these matters are ever brought before court, And we are told from time to time, Sir, by the Minister of Justice and by various other spokesmen for the Government of Canada that the reason is is that there is a shortage of judges in this Province and that we do not have an Appeal's Court in this Province, The 1iinister has told us in this honourable House that that is one of the reasons for the delays. We have cases, Mr.

Speaker, in this Province that are outstanding now, not for a matter of months, Sir, - the Hon, Premier is looking over and sort of pointin~back and forth. I was hoping that the Hon, Premier would forget about that. That is not the case I was referring to. AN HON, MEMBER: You are not knocking it, 22i5

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 730 Page 3_ mw .MR. NF.ARY: No, I am not knocking it, But, Sir, there are eases that are outstanding for as much as a year and a half and two yeai'S. The people who are charged have iic,t been brought to trial and the feeble excuses that we are getting, Sir, is that the Crown is not ready to proceed with the case or we have to wait untU this one is - AN HON. MEMBERt That is your reason. 2216

March 25, 1975 Tape 731 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. NEARY: No, that is not my reason. I am here all of the time, you know, any time the thing comes up I am prepared. But, Sir, - and Mr. Speaker, I raised a matter in the House the other day and we cannot discuss it because the Minister of Justice,and probably rightly so_, indicated to Your Honour that the matter is before the Court. But, Sir, that matter has been before the Court now since last July, and why has not the trial date been set? Why? Because we are told that there is a shortage of judges.

The position that was left vacant by the Late Judge Higgins has not yet been filled. Maybe it is not the fault of the provincial government, Sir. It may be the fault of the Government of Canada. Mr . Speaker, as an ordinary layman I do not understand, I cannot understand, perhaps the Minister of Justice when he is closing the debate can tell me, why does it take so long to appoint people to the Bench? Why? MR. RICKMAN: He never asked me. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, the honourable minister interjected a little bit of partisan politics. Well, Sir, - AN HON. MEMB.ER : Inaudible. MR.

H1ClCMAN : for the minister's information, Mr. Speaker, I will tell you this that personally speaking, and I cannot speak on behalf of my colleagues, personally speaking, Sir, - AN HON. MEMBER: Speak on my behalf. Speak on my behalf. MR. NEARY: No, I am speaking on my own behalf. I would prefer, Sir, that the judges that are appointed to the Benches of the Supreme Court were not appointed along partisan political lines. I would prefer, Sir, that they were appointed on their qualifications. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Hear! Rear! Now, Mr. Speaker, you know - Inaudible. You know, Mr.

Speaker, when Mr. Diefenbaker was there it was the same thing, when Mr. Trudeau is there it is the same thing · - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 2217

March 25, 1975 Tape 731 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. NEARY: If Mr. Stanfield were there it would be the same thing. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: He will never be there. Mr. Speaker, I - Inaudible. I fail to see, Sir, I fail to see what your political affiliation has to do with being appointed to the Bench, and people getting a fair shake.

You know, what difference does it make what a man is, if the present Minister of Justice has the qualifications, and he aspires to the Bench, and he has a good record, and he can look at things objectively, and he has his sanity, he is in complete control of all his faculties why should he not - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: You just disqualified - MR. NEARY: I did not automatically disqualify the minister I hope, Sir. But, Mr. Speaker, why should the minister be not appointed to the Bench?

You know, it does not make any difference to me, I mean, if I break the law and I get hauled up before a judge of the Supreme Court it does not make any difference to me if he is an N.D.P. or a Tory or a Liber .al, at least I do not think it is 0 I would like to think, Sir, that justice will be done, and that is the important thing. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN FON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Inaudible. I beg your pardon? It might take a while to get a chance to know - Well, Mr.

Speaker, there has been a delay - and probably this is the reason why a lot of these cases have not yet been able to get before the courts, and whether or not the.,appointment of supernumerary judges will cure this, will remedy this situation or not, Sir, the minister certainly did not make it clear in his introductory remarks. As a matter of fact, Sir, when the minister got up and introduced this bill in second reading, "An Act Further To Amend The District Courts Act" I must confess that up to that point I was not really to familiar with the term supernunnery judge. MR. HICKMAN: Supernumerary. 2218

!-larch 25, 1975 Tapr 731 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Supernumerary. AN HON. ID')fBER: Inaudible. Wt. NEARY: Well I thought the judges were all going to be put in .the convent there for a while - super. But, Mr. Sp~er, until my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition came in and enlightened us all with his few remarks in the House, Sir, and as I listened and followed very attentively to what my leader bad to say,, Sir, I suddenly realized that this particular bill :Ls far more significant and far more important, Sir, than the Minister of Justice was leading us to believe. AN HO.'J. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Well, Sir, it IDUSt be important because it is after taking precedence over unemployment, cost of living - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Come-By-Chance, Chui:chill Falls. It has taken precedence over everything else in this honourable House today. So, Sir, it must be 2219

March 25, 1975. Tape 732 RI! - 1 quite an important piece of legislation. I am just that naive and stupid, Sir, to believe that that is a very, very important piece of legislation and that the House Leader should call this bill before he called the Minister of Manpower's estimates.

So, Sir, it has to be a very important piece of legislation and I am going to support it, Sir, and I am going to support it for one reason only, not that I want to see the judges when they become aged sixty or if they have fifteen years or aged sixty in ten years service that they get put ont to pasture and they can have a little bit of gravy, you know. They can pick up a few extra pennies here and there. I am not supporting it for that reason, Sir.

I am supporting it because I hope that this will remedy a very, very bad situation that we have in this Province inasmuch as it is taking too long to get a lot of cases before the courts of this Province, Sir• And as long as these delays are caused, Mr. Speaker, and I know several of these people, I know these people have discussed their problems and their cases with me and I am only an ordinary layman and they are completely frustrated and hamstrung and in a lot of cases, Sir, are almost forced into bankruptcy because of the delays.

So, I would like for the minister when he is closing the debate to tell us whether or not this is going to take care of this problem. I hope it is, Sir, and that is the c,nly reason I will support this bill. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: I move the adjournment of this debate. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable minister has moved the adjournment of the debate. Those in favour of the adjournment of the debate "aye", those against "nay". Carried. On motion that the House resolve i tself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order! 2220

March 25 1975. Tape 732 Manpowetr and Industrial Relations, Head VI MR. CHAI:RMAN (Stqg) : Shall 501-01 carry? MR. MA1NARD: Mr. Chairman, I suppose it is approvrute to have a few words on the Head, I am sure. Other members are going to have a few words as we_ll. Maybe the appropriate thing to do would be to . give a report, first of all, Qf the activities of the department during the past year and an analysis of what ~e hope tc;, do during 1975.

Perhaps the RH - 2 most appropriate way :l,s to take the department by sections because we have a ntm1ber of various sections in the deparµne11t which are labour, industrial relations branch, manpowet', human rights division, engineering and technical services. etc. So, the labour one 7which is the one that is known to the public, the labour section, I will give a few statistics.

The division is concerned with the adminis -tration right now of _day. to day activities under four separate acts, the Labour Relations Act, the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act, Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act and the Newfoundland Teacher Collective Bargaining Act, as well as being responsible for what is known as the Trade Union Act. 222i

March 25, 1975 Tape 733 (afternoon) IB-1 During 1974 the department received some sixty-two requests for conciliation services to assist 1mi011s and employers in dealing with disputes or working out contracts. The greatest number of these were settled with the help of the conciliation officer alone, approximately seventy per cent.

We have shown through experience over the years that the most appropriate way of settling labour disputes or assisting in settling labour disputes is through the work of a conciliation officer although there are times when we do have to go beyond the conciliation officer stage and appoint conciliation boards. We only do this where a dispute is protracted to a point where it can seriously affect the economy of the region or the Province. We are very careful in our analysis of the situation before a board is appointed.

We find that normally it does not do much more than delay the inevitable possibly for a few weeks. During the past year we referred seven disputes to conciliation boards. At the end of the period these conciliation boards have contributed to the settlement of four disputes. Some conciliation board findings are used as a basis for further negotiations. Others are rejected outright. Others are accepted in total. We also receive requests)of course,for arbitration to deal with differences that may arise in a collective agreement between unions and employers throughout the life of the collective agreement.

Last year during the 1974 calendar year, sixty-two arbitration decisions were filed with the department following the adjudication of grievances brought before arbitration boards. Many of the differences be~een employers and unions which arise during the term of a collective agreement are dealt with by arbitrators or arbitration boards without prior reference to our department. It is only the most difficult ones that we assist in.

There is usunlly a mechanism within the collective agreement for dealing with these disputes, but there are times when we do have to become involved in arbitration and when we are called on to become involved, of course we do so. At the present time there are approximately 230 collective 2222

March 25, 1975 Tape 733 (afternoon) IB-2 agreements in force in the Province. During 1974 there was a further 130 agreements filed with the department. These agreements terminate at various times throughout the year. This coming year, 1975, as all honourable members are aware by this time, is going to be one of the busiest years, if not the busiest year on record for the Department of Labour, the labour section. At the beginning of the year, 1975, there were 130 collective agreements to be renegotiated. That is approximately half of the total collective agreements in force in the Province.

However, the 130 collective agreements that were to be open for renegotiation throughout the year comprise the very large segment of the organized work force in the Province, probably around the vicinity of seventy-five per cent. We have the construction industry, the public service, the fisheries, and most of the - and mining - most of the larger industries are represented in those 130 collective agreements. So, it is going to be a busy year from the point of view of conciliation work by the department.

There is also going to be numerous new certifications of new bargaining tmits made by the Labour Relations Board. It is difficult to tell how many, but we estimate probably 100 new certifications will be issued. This,of course,means that there will be 100 new contracts negotiated. Mest of 2223

March 25, 1975 Tape No. 734 NM - 1 these will, because of the various factors this year, inflation and this sort of thing, most of these agreements will need conciliation services. So our conciliation staff are going to be very hard pressed to keep up with the work load, And talk about numbers 1not quality 1because certainly from my point of view the quality of the conciliation staff we have is second to none, but unfortunately we do not have the sufficient numbers to spread around and there are times when I have one conciliation officer trying to handle five cases.

Of course,apart from the disputes which are the things which are more in the public eye, the conciliation staff also has to assist in many other functions which takes up a considerable amount of their time, such as investigations for the Labour Relations Board in determining whether a bargaining unit has the required percentage of members before it goes before the board for certification or otherwise, invesitgations for revocation of collective agreements and these are very, very time consuming. They are things that have to be done and the staff carries them out in conjunction with their other conciliation work.

I would like to say just - to give a few statistics about the number of work stoppages that we have had in the Province over the past year, the calendar year of 1974, There were a total of ninety during that calendar year, fifteen of these were what is termed as legal, there were strikes at the termination of a collective agreement, the remaining seventy-five were considered as having been illegal strikes, in other words strikes during the term of the collective agreement. The total time lost as a result of these ninety work stopages amounted to some 88,000 man-days or approximately 708,000 man-hours.

That translated into the loss to the economy is equivalent to approximately 1,000 people being out of work for a period of four months. Work stoppages during 1974 involved some 15,000 employees. Only 1400 or a little 2224

Karc-h 25, i975 Tape NO. 734 NM - 2 over 1400 of that ll\Jlllher are considered to have beeJi engaged in what is again commonly biown as legal strikes. To give a c:oaqsarison of the work stoppages that occurred during 1973 so that the overall number increased from: 1973 number of seventy-six to nine_ty in 1974. However. the JlUDlber of illegal work stopages increas.ed from fifty-six in 1973 to sevei:i.ty-five in 1974. But the number of man-days or man-hours lost in 1974 was approumately one-third of that for the previous year.

It simply means that the strikes• even though there were more strikes in 1974 there were les·s man-hours lost so therefore the strikes on the average lasted a less amount of time. shorter periods. Some of the more serioµs work stoppages are well known to the mem))ers of the House and I do not thinlr, it would be appropriate to go over them here at this time • 222~

March 25, 1975. Tape 735 RH - 1 Our Province and indeed the whole of Canada seems, Mr. rhairman, to be plagued by illegal work stoppages and I have heard numerous col!Ullents on the cause of illegal work stoppages and I have heard numerous suggestions put forth as to what the cure is. The fact is, of course, that no one as yet in any juris­ diction, whether it is in Canada or in other parts of the Western world, have ever been able to determine what is the real cause or indeed, what, if any cure there is for illegal strikes. Now, I am not suggesting for a moment that there are no solutions.

I am merely saying that so far no one has been able to find the answers. However, I might point out that everyone in every jurisdiction, every labour department across North America, at least, are looking, searching for a solution to illegal work stopuages and I suupose somewhere down the road we may be able to find a solution. Nm-,, illegal work stoppages per se appear not to involve the Depart- ment of Labour that much, but certainly in one way or another all work stoppages involve our department and it adds to the work load that we have.

Throughout this year 1 as noted in the Throne Speech, we will be bringing before the legislature further legislation emanating from the Cohen Commission Report. Some of the report has already been implemented in the form of the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act. Some of it was implemented part1 ally, at least, in the Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act a few years ago. There are other parts to the report that we intend to incorporate into a new Labour Relations Act. Now, this has been a long drawn out process.

It has been. some 010 years in the making. but it was necessary for us to have the full participation of both the labour element and management before we could put together

an act that would be workable. The various sections in the act have been studied, or in the report 2226

:-larch l5, 19"/5. Rll - 2 rather, have been studied quite thorou~hly by both sectors of the Province . They have made their suggestions. I mi ght say that there are a larg~ number of reco11111endations in the Cohen C-0mmission Reoort ci1at have been agre ed to. either in the original form or in a modified form by both labour and manage­ ment and these sections, of course, will be ltoing into the new acc.

There are other recommendations in the Cohen Report thet will be inplemented which have not been entirely agr eed to by both side, hut they will be implemented or will be proposed in the act because of the departmental adminis t ration. But I do not think ther e will be anythin~ in the new act t hat will ge t either lahour or management upset or , at least , l hope not because the aim and objective of bringing in a new act is to t ry to bring peace and harmony on the labour scene in the Province , not to try to ere.ate further division betveen the tm) sectors . Another

section of the department, Mr. Chairman , is the Larour Standards Division. tlow, this aRain i s a division that is not hea rd of too much, hut they do work very quietly and very effectively and it is a very important division to the people of t he Province, especially the people who are organized into soMe collective or organi zed by unions and have a collective aireement . During the past twelve months the Labour Standa.ds Division bas recovered over $100,000 on behalf of nearly 1.200 e!'lpl.oyees ai ainst whom 2227

March 25, 1975 Tape 736 (afternoon) IB-1 breaches of the Labour Standards Legislation had been committed, Now, these breaches come mider various acts, such as the ~inimum Wage Act, the Employment Notice of Termination Act, the Annual Vacation with Pay Act, the Workmens' Wages Act, etc. The Labour Standards Division has a staff of eleven. We have regional offices at Grand Falls and Comer Brook. There main job is to investigate complaints that an employee has beenlshortchanged is the word, through the provisions of the Minim~m Wage Act or that insufficient notice had been given on their termination of employment.

The Labour Standards Division, the inspectors investigate and if they find that there has been an infraction of the act or one of the acts included, they lay charges through a magistrate~ court to recover the wages that are owing to the employee. We have also throughout this past year and previous to that made a thorough analysis of the various acts under the Labour Standards Division and we have now come to the point where we are con~lidating all of the various Labour Standards Legislat:lon into one comprehensive Labour Standards Code.

We expect to also bring this piece of legislation before the House of Assembly in the not too distant future and the code will contain a numbe~ of provisions which will iaprove the working conditions of the unorganized sector of the labour force.

When we talk about the amount of money that is recovered by the Labour Standards Division, the amounts 1of course,do not sound all that impressive, but it is extremely important to the people for which the money was recovered because the $10C, $200, $300 or whatever the amount may be is important to a person, especially a per~on who is making barely the minimum wage level. So, it is an important job that we will continue and hopefully we will be able to do more of it and increase our ability to do more of it throughout the coming year.

Under the new Consolidated Act the Minimum Wage Board as we know it now will be disbanded. The only act that has a board at the 2228

March 25, 11H 5' TApe 736 (a£ternoon) present time that investigates and has hearings and su~gests to the government what the level of mini.mum wage should be is the Hinimum Wage Act. Flowever, we are going to replace that board with what "'ill be known as a Labour Standards lloard. That board will hold hearings and will recommend to government standards not only for minimum wage but for notice of termination,for vacation with pay IB-2 and this sort of thing, the "1hole broad spectrum of labour standards.

As soon as the new act is brought in and as soon as it has gone through the legislature, we will be setting up the new Labour Standards Boa.rd which will be a considerable improvement over what we have had up to thi s date, al·thou gh I might say that the Minimum Wage Board .has done a fair al1l0unt of work in the past t:1-!o or three years. They are now in hearings and wi.11 soon within the next couple of months sug ~est a new

schedule of minimum wage to government that government can cons ider for implementation over the next year or two years or three years, whatever the case might be. 2229

March 25, 1975 Tape 737 (Afternoon) PK - 1 One other

section of the department that is becoming more and more important, and people are getting to know much better, of course, not only in Newfoundland is this happening but all across Canada, and that is the Human Rights Division. And Human Rights has become a fairly active force in all jurisdictions in Canada over the past three or four years. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MAYNARD: It is becoming more and more known here in the Province of Newfoundland.

And I am sure that the public once they are able to get the'information on what their rights are under the Human Rights Code they will be taking advantage of that protective legislation. As members are aware we brought in some amendments to the Human Rights Legislation in the Fall of 1974 sitting of the Legislature, which has been passed and proclaimed. It is now in effect. We are now at the point of trying to analyze just what we will need in terms of staff, in terms of facilities to be able to properly implement the Human Rights Code.

It is impossible to do that, of course, until such time as we are able to ascertain what response there is going to be from the public for protection under the Code itself. We are also heavily involved with discussing Human Rights legislation, Human Rights procedures with other jurisdictions across Canada. I understand that the federal people are now about to bring in a Human Rights Act that may complement or it may override,we do not know as yet, the provincial legislation.

We are hoping that it will go along and be a complementary piece of legislation to the provincial legislation but we have to wait and see that. However, we are trying at the present time to set up a properly constituted commission and to determine what expansion we have to have in the division. We may again be making some further changes in the present legislation over the next year depending, of course, on what happens with the national conferences that are going on from time to time, both on the director, deputy minister level and the ministerial level.

So honourable members may be seeing some further amendments to the Human Rights Code depending on these discussions. 2230

March 25, 1975 Tape 737 (Afternoon) PK - 2 The

section of the Department of }fanpower and Industrial Relations which is fairly new, and it is almost at the same time becoming more and more important 1is the Manpower Division. I think it is probably a division of the department that very little was known about until the name of the department was changed to the present name of Manpower and Industrial Relations. There are very few people in the public of Newfoundland knew that the provincial government was involved in Manpower at all.

However all provinces across Canada within the last year or so have come to realize that they must themselves get more involv•!d in Manpower procedures. Up to this point in time the federal government has done the bulk of the Manpower work. they, of course, paid out most of the money, but they have also set most of the policies. And these policies,although they are supposedly well thought out and they are suppose to be well implemented,they are not applicable to all sections of Canada, because Canada is a very diverse country in many ways.

And what is applicable to Newfoundland is certainly not applicable to British Columbia or Ontario or Quebec. Unfortunately federal policies tend to be standard ac:ross Canada. And in that 2231

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 738 Page 1 - mw context we often find that their policies, even though the federal people mean very well in instituting these policies, they do not apply to various sectors. For the first time in history, I think it was last August,the Manpower Ministers of the various provinces got together in Edmonton and had the first Manpower Ministers' Meeting, There was a follow up to that in December,which I attended. I did not attend the one in Edmonton. My colleague, who is now Minister of Transportation, did.

But I attended the one in Regina and I found out that with the exception of Alberta there were no provinces in Canada that had a comprehensive Manpower policy. We also found out that even though we did not particularly like the way that the federal government were administering Manpower policy, although we each had different views of it1 of how it should be done, we also found that the reason the federal government were administering the policy and were sort of taking over what is assumed to be a provincial field, was simply because the provinces had never bothered to do anything themselves.

We came away from that meeting with one thing in mind,that all provinces, if they wanted to have an input into Manpower training, re-training, placement services so on and so forth, all provinces would have to formulate comprehensive Manpower policies on a provincial level. When that was done, we could then try to co-ordinate as much as possible, try to streamline as much as possible across Canada with, of course, regional differences, provincial differences entering in.

We would then approach the federal government and possibly regain some of the jurisdiction that had been sort of given up by default because the provinces had not had a policy. Now this is the exercise Chat this Province is involved in right now, trying to put together a comprehensive policy. We have various people working on it. We would hope to have some substantial work done on this within the next couple of months. When we do that, we decide what we can do or what we should do as far as Manpower is concerned. 2232

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 738 Page 2 - mw Then I think we can discuss on a very realistic basis with the federal government, what we need. The key, of course, to any Manpower policy is the creation of jobs. Once jobs are created, once the other departments of government find the means to create jobs, then it is our responsibility as a Manpower department to have the appropriate trained personnel to be able to take advantage of those jobs. This is what we have been attempting to do all along but unfortunately, because of the lack of a comprehensive policy, we have not been able to zero in on the problem properly.

We have got to expand both the progr.anmes and the personnel required to administer the various progranmes but at the same time, we have to create some sort of a sense of direction as to where we are going and what we are trying to accomplish, One of the major things that we have to undertake in our department, and I find this is true again all across Canada, is research and statistics, not statistics for the sake of gathering them up into nice,neat, little folders, but statistics only to the point where they can be used for actual,real planning. Up to now we have had, as I said, a very ad hoc approach.

There has been no data available to us, and we have not tried to accumulate all that much data on the various components of the labour force. We do not have a proper profile of the work force, We have no idea of the numbers - well I was going to say, no idea, but that is a little bit in error - but we have a very vague idea of the number that is employed in the Province in each trade, each occupation, We have very little idea of how many vacancies may exist in any one occupation. We have 2233

March 25, 1975 Tape 739 (afternoon) very little idea whether we are overtraining or whether l••e are doing less than necessary. So, all we are doing and this has been done in IE-1 the past for X number of years, is trying to make a very educated guess. An educated guess, although it may be the only thing to do at times, is not a very accurate methoc1 of determining manpower needs and what we have to do in the way of training and retraining, mobility, and all the other elements of the manpower policy. For instance, we hear every day that there are 43,000 people unemployed in the Province.

Statistics Canada tells us this. We have no way in arguing with it. It may or may not be exactly right. It may be off by ten per cent, fifteen per cent. We do not know. It is a frightening statistic. Even if it was only half of that it would be a frightening statistic, but it is just that, a statistic that is done in a nice, neat little folder by a Statistics Canada flash sheet that comes out every month. We fold it back and we have no idea of whether there are really 43,000 people unemployed or whether there are 33,000 or whether there are 53,000. We do not know how many are seasonal.

We have no idea how many are unemployed through voluntary means. We have no idea how many are unemployed because they have insufficient training whether in the particular trade they have been working at or whether they have insufficient training to go to another job. We have no idea how many are in the wrong location for the jobs that may be open. There are many jobs open from time to time with no one to fill them. So, unless we are able to gather this type of information and put it to good use, then there is no way that we can tackle the problem of unemployment.

When I talk about a manpower profile,and talking about simply that, of us knowing how many people, exactly how many people are unemployed, how many jobs there are available, what kinds of jobs they are and whether or not we have the people to fit in to the jobs and if they are the wrong location how can we get them there or do they want to ro - once we have that jnformad on, we can realistically say that we have not battled totally the issue of 2234

f.larch 25, 1975 Tape 739 (afternoon) IB-2 unemployment but we will he able to cut down the nwnhers a considerable amount. For instance, it is totally unrealistic - I knmo the numbers are included there - it is totally unrealistic to say that the fishermen along my coast, the one I am most familiar with, are unemployed. There are no fishermen on my coast unemployed at this point in time although he is included in the statistic that comes out from Statistics Canada. So, we have to separate the seasonal people from the, I suppose, full time people. Once we do that, we will have a much more realistic figure.

I am sure that with all that information we would still probably come up with a very frightening statistic, but at least we would have more realism about it and it would be much easier to deal with. So, that is the aim we are trying to take in the Manpower Department. It is going to take some time to put all of this together,