Manitoba Hansard — 6 August 2002 (Sitting 76B, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-76b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 76B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, August 6, 2002 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

4243 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, August 6, 2002 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Transcona-Springfield School Division Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield}: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Art Sayer, Tim Robinson, George Sinclair and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) to reverse the decision to split Transcona Springfield School Division and allow it to remain as a whole or to consider immediately convening the Board of Reference to decide the matter.

Trans-Canada Highway-Twinning (Virden) Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I beg to present the petition of Isabel Zorn, Edith Hutchison, Jean Johnston and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Transportation and Govern ment Services (Mr. Ashton) consider making the completion of the twinning of the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border an immediate fiscal priority for his Government and to consider taking whatever steps are necessary to ensure that work begins in the 2002 construction year.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Transcona-Springfield School Division Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members : Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the prov ince of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT on November 8, 2001, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Caldwell) announced a split in the Transcona-Springfield School Division but despite repeated requests has been unable to identify any benefits of this decision to the students and taxpayers of said school division; and THAT this decision was not preceded by adequate public consultation as outlined in

section 7 of The Public Schools Act; and THAT this decision would result in signifi cant hardships for the students in both Transcona and Springfield that would affect the quality of their education; and THAT the proposal by the Minister of Edu cation on February 12 , 2002, neither alleviates nor remedies these hardships; and THAT this decision results in an increased financial burden on the taxpayers of both the Transcona-Springfield School Division and the province of Manitoba; and THAT on March 13, 2002, the number of resident electors required by The Public Schools Act requested the Minister of Education to convene a Board of Reference to decide the matter.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education to reverse the decision to split the Transcona Springfield School Division and allow it to remain as a whole or to consider immediately convening the Board of Reference to decide the matter.

4244 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 Trans-Canada Highway-Twinning (Virden) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): These are the reasons for this petition: Over the years, the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border has been the site of numerous accidents, a number of which have involved fatalities.

The safety of the motoring public on the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border would be improved if the twinning of the highway were to be completed. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transpor tation and Government Services (Mr.

Ashton) consider making the completion of the twinning of the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border an immediate fiscal priority for his Government; To request that the Minister of Transpor tation and Government Services consider taking whatever steps are necessary to ensure that work toward the completion of the twinning of the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border begins in the 2002 con struction year. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Law Amendments Ninth Report Mr. Doug Martindale (Chairperson): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the Ninth Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its Ninth Report. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Meetings: Your committee met on Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 6:30 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building. Matters Under Consideration: Bill 35-The Child and Family Services Authorities Act/Loi sur les regies de services a !'enfant eta Ia famille Membership Resignations I Elections: Your committee elected Mr. Santos as Vice Chairperson.

Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting held on July 31, 2002: Mr. Cummings for Mr. Laurendeau Mr. Reimer for Mrs. Smith (Fort Garry) Mr. Nevakshonofffor Ms. Cerilli Ms. Korzeniowski for Mr. Rondeau Mr. Santos for Hon. Mr. Smith (Brandon West) Hon. Mr. Lemieux for Hon. Mr. Mackintosh Substitutions made, by leave, during committee proceedings: Mr. Dyck for Mr.

Maguire Public Presentations: Your committee heard 13 presentations on Bill 35-The Child and Family Services Authorities Act/Loi sur les regies de services a /'enfant et a Ia famille, from the following individuals and/or organizations: Maitre Marianne Rivoalen, Presidente, Societe franco-manitobaine Association des juristes Bobbi Pompana, Dakota Ojibway Child and Family Services Sydney Garrioch, MKO (Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak) Grand Chief Francis Flett, MKO (Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak) Trudy Lavallee on behalf of Chief Louis Stevenson, Acting Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4245 David Chartrand, Manitoba Metis Federation Leslie Spillett, Mother of Red Nations Women's Council of Manitoba Carla Engel, Metis Child and Family and Community Services Program Rosemarie McPherson, Metis Women of Manitoba Burma Bushie, Southeast Child and Family Services Donna Harris-Kirby, Private Citizen Elizabeth Fleming, Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba Inc. Leona Freed, First Nations Accountability Co alition of Manitoba, Inc.

Bills Considered and Reported: Bill 35-The Child and Family Services Authorities Act/Loi sur les regies de services a /'enfant eta lafamille Your committee agreed to report this bill, without amendment. Mr. Martin dale: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Law Amendments Tenth Report * (13:35) Mr. Doug Martindale (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Tenth Report of the Committee on Law Amendments.

Madam Clerk: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its Tenth Report. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Meetings: Your committee met on Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 6:30 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building. Matters Under Consideration: Bill 17-The Cooperatives Amendment Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les cooperatives Bill40-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act/Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route Bill 48- The Legal Profession Act/Loi sur Ia profession d'avocat Bill 50-The Resource Tourism Operators Act/Loi sur les exploitants d'entreprises touris tiques axees sur Ia nature Bill 51-The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 2002/Loi corrective de 2002 Bill 54-The Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Conflict of Interest Amendment (Con flict of Interest Commissioner) Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les conflits d'interets au sein de l'Assemb!ee legislative et du Conseil executif (commissaire aux conflits d'interets) Committee Membership: Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting: Mr. Dewar for Mr. Nevakshonoff Hon. Mr. Lath/in for Hon. Ms. Barrett Hon. Mr. Smith (Brandon West) for Ms. Korzeniowski Hon. Mr. Ashton for Hon. Mr. Sale Hon. Mr. Mackintosh for Hon. Mr. Lemieux Mr. Faurschou for Mr. Dyck Mr. Laurendeau for Mrs. Mitchelson Bills Considered and Reported: Bill 17-The Cooperatives Amendment Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les cooperatives Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Bill40-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act/Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Bill 48- The Legal Profession Act/Loi sur Ia profession d'avocat

4246 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Bill 50-The Resource Tourism Operators Act/Loi sur les exploitants d'entreprises touris tiques axees sur Ia nature Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Bill 51-The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 2002/Loi corrective de 2002 Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Bill 54-The Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Conflict of Interest Amendment (Con flict of Interest Commissioner) Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les conflits d'interets au sein de l'Assemblee legislative et du Conseil executif (commissaire aux conflits d'interets) Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Mr. Martindale: I move, seconded by the hon ourable Member for Riel (Ms. Asper), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Scott Smith (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Com mission for the period April 1, 2001, to March 31, 2002.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 304-The Winnipeg Real Estate Board Incorporation Amendment Act Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski), that leave be given to introduce Bill 304, The Winnipeg Real Estate Board Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi constituant en corporation "The Winnipeg Real Estate Board", and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr.

Struthers: This bill enables the Winnipeg Real Estate Board to determine, by law, the size and composition of its board of directors, the terms of office of directors and when within the year elections to the board are held. It also enables forms to be prescribed by by-law, rather than having them prescribed in the act. Motion agreed to. Bill 204-The Smoke-Free Places Act (Non Smokers Health Protection Act Amended) Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Morris (Mr.

Pitura), that leave be given to introduce Bill 204, The Smoke-Free Places Act (Non-Smokers Health Protection Act Amended);

Loi sur les lieux sans fumee (modification de la

Loi sur Ia protection de Ia sante des non fumeurs ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Livestock Industry Tuberculosis Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, the American government has declared Manitoba to be a tuberculosis zone. Effective August 17, all breeding cattle and farm bison that have been in Manitoba must be tested for bovine TB before being shipped to the United States. On July 25 the Premier (Mr.

Doer) stated, and I quote: "we will look at all measures we can take to try to deal with the problems of wildlife from Riding Mountain National Park going into the domestic livestock population ... " Mr. Speaker, given that the House recently passed powerful legislation dealing with the livestock disease, will the Minister of Agri culture today commit this Government to taking

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4247 the Premier's words "all measures" necessary to stem the spread of disease. Is the minister prepared to take those measures? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agri culture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for raising this issue which is indeed an important issue.

I want to tell the member the Canadian cattle association is here in Winnipeg meeting with CFIA today and having discussions about the movement of livestock and about whether or not there is the ability to draw a zone and make it a smaller area where the testing will have to be done. The member knows full well the legislation that was passed deals with the movement of domestic animals; it does not deal with the movement of wild animals. I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker, we have taken many steps since we have taken office to address the TB issue which the Opposition did not take.

We put in place a TB strategy committee, we put in place resources to track elk, we put in place funding to help with the fencing of hay, much more than the previous government did. They knew about this disease since 1997 and they did nothing. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Speaker, Bill 11 was just passed in this House. Can this minister tell this House today whether she is prepared to use the measures that were given by this Legislature, the powers given to her, and put into place a quarantine around Riding Mountain National Park? * (13:40) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, the powers that are within Bill 11 help to quarantine domestic animals and the movement of animals when disease is suspected. I have to ask the member, if he is so concerned about TB in the wild herd, why his government did not do anything. I want to tell this House when they were in government they knew there was TB in the herd in Riding Mountain. They were told not to capture elk in Riding Mountain, but that government, instead of addressing TB in the wild herd and taking steps to control the disease, chose to capture elk.

That cost the Manitoba government hundreds of thousands of dollars, because they captured diseased elk and did absolutely nothing about it. Mr. Jack Penner: I know the minister is per turbed because they have done nothing to stem the disease in this province.

Can the minister today tell this House whether she is prepared to offer to the cattle producers of Manitoba a compensation package that will help offset the costs all cattle producers and livestock producers will incur on breeding stock being shipped across to the United States and the testing and loss of income the cattle producers will incur because of her inaction, not to take action to maintain the disease in Riding Mountain National Park? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the member knows TB is a reportable disease that falls under the jurisdiction of the CFIA.

CFIA and the Canadian cattle producers are meeting today to talk about this. But, Mr. Speaker, I think it is absolutely appalling that this member would say we have done nothing when he knows full well in 1997, when TB was detected, they did nothing. They did not put together a TB strategy. Instead, what they did when they knew there was TB in the Riding Mountain herd, instead of putting together a strategy to address it and to try to control the disease, they went and captured them and tried to mix them into the farming community, into the domestic herds. Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Gaming Commission. On Friday, a Mr. David Doer of Soaring Eagle Accounting wrote a letter to Chief Pashe-r guess he is recognizing Chief Pashe as the chief indicating that he is resigning and his company is resigning from doing the accounting audit with regard to the gaming commission because they have had no co-operation for the past five months. I would like to table the letter of resignation from David Doer and Grant Hayton.

4248 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister responsible for the Gaming Commission who are Manitobans to believe. Are they to believe David Doer who says that for the last five months he has had no co-operation and could not get any information, or are they to believe the minister who said on July 24 that, in fact, good progress, significant progress in terms of coming into compliance has been made, when, in fact, Mr. Doer says no information can be obtained from his research into the accounting at Dakota Tipi? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administr ation of The Gaming Control Act): Indeed, I am very pleased to answer the ques tion. I want to put on the record that this member, who was a member of the previous government, was part of a government that signed an agreement in 1994, Mr.

Speaker, and had no audited statements submitted by Dakota Tipi in '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, and in fact the audit for '99 was not received until this Government came in, in February of2000. * (13:45) An audit was received in 2001, and indeed when there were inadequacies with the audit that was provided we took action and referred it back in January of this year. We need no lecture from the member opposite about the auditing process with Dakota Tipi. Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): My question is for the Minister responsible for the Gaming Control Commission.

Mr. Speaker, we have a letter from a Mr. David Doer as of Friday who indicates that for five months he had been trying to get infor mation from those on Dakota Tipi who were responsible for gaming and had not been able to even start analyzing the financial records. We have a Minister responsible for Gaming who said as late as last week progress was being made and that information was coming forward. Mr. Speaker, my question for the Minister responsible for Gaming in the province of Mani- toba is: How can he justify his comments last week? Is he trying to cover up for what is going on at Dakota Tipi?

What is he trying to hide? He cannot speak out ofboth sides of his mouth. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I am glad the member opposite, who was also a member of that government, talks about cover-up, because between 1994 and 1999, not only were the independent audits not provided, that Government refused to release information on communities who were in non compliance. We have released that. I want to say that we need no lectures from members opposite in terms of compliance with gaming.

Dakota Tipi did not follow that for five years out of that government. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a point of order. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Deputy Official Oppo sition House Leader): Beauchesne 417: should not provoke debate. The minister clearly stated in this House and in the past that they have been in compliance. He sent me a letter that said they were in compliance. Now he is denying it. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would just like to remind all honourable members, a point of order should be to point out to the Speaker a breach of a rule or departure from procedures in the House and not to be used for rebuttal or debate. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. The honourable Member for Turtle Moun tain does not have a point of order. *** Mr. Ashton: Once again, the members opposite did not give any information on First Nations gaming authorities that were not in compliance. We provided that.

Not only that, between '94 and '99, Dakota Tipi was operating, not only bingos that were not authorized by Manitoba Lotteries, but illegal slot machines. So, once again, we do not need any lectures from members opposite in terms of Dakota Tipi and gaming.

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4249 Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh). Last week I tabled a letter written by the Minister of Justice. The minister indicated that he did not know who he was referring to in that letter. His staff wrote the letter. He just signed it. That is what the minister wants us to believe.

My question to the minister: Now that he has had time to discuss this with his staff, is he going to finally admit that he knew all along who he was referring to, who was the Premier's brother in that letter? He knew that all along. Does he really expect Manitobans to believe he did not know what he wrote in his letter? * (13:50) Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to what mem bers opposite should know under the framework agreement they put in place in 1994.

It is interesting, right from day one, when they have raised questions in this House, and I went back to the Member for Lakeside's (Mr. Enns) original question on the involvement of Soaring Eagle, what was interesting is he never once indicated the key element here that they were contracted by Dakota Tipi. It was no secret that Soaring Eagle was working with Dakota Tipi. In fact, on July 24, I answered questions raised by the Member for Lakeside in terms of that. The key issue was the 15% commission. I want to put on the record that I apologize for being too generous to the Opposition last week.

They raised the issue of the 15 percent. They never once pointed out it was a violation of the siteholder agreement. It took the Minister of Lotteries to do that. As of this date, the VL Ts remain shut down. An Honourable Member: Mr. Speaker, some thing smells here. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Well, Mr. Speaker, the members on this side are absolutely right. Something does smell. Dakota Tipi First Nation Gaming-Judicial Inquiry Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): On three different occasions, the Minister of Gaming said that Dakota Tipi were in com pliance.

The Minister of Lotteries, she just did not know. We have the Justice Minister referring to a letter he sent in June where he did not bother to inquire who the third party was. Now we have the Premier's brother involved on a 15% take from VLT gambling. My question is directly to the Premier (Mr. Doer). Will he stand today and now clarify for all Manitobans the smell that is emanating from that side of the House and call a public inquiry? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I look at members opposite and, some of them, their faces look familiar from the 1990s when they had a level of ethics that was so low you could trip over it. I want to say on the record that they have all the way through this, I believe, chosen not to know the frame work they set up. The member opposite, if he would care to look at the framework, would understand that 1994 to 1999 there was non-compliance, there was illegal gaming activity, illegal slots and no independent audits.

When we came into office, we got them to submit independent audits and indeed, this is where they have played the word games-they provided financial information that was not adequate, which we sent back. They need give us no lectures about compliance or about gaming. In fact, if they want an inde pendent review they might want to review why for five years they did nothing with the Dakota Tipi and we have to. Mr. Tweed: I will ask my question directly to the Premier, because people in Manitoba want to know what is going on at Dakota Tipi.

Will the Premier call a judicial inquiry where people have to report and present under oath the facts of the dealings going on at Dakota Tipi in which his

4250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 brother was involved, on the take for 15 percent? Will the Premier call the inquiry? * (13:55) Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite talks about "on the take." I believe that was a name of a book on the Mulroney era, and I suspect the Filmon government will be the sequel to that book, because I can tell you, in this particular case, no relative of any member of this House has received any special favours. I contrast that to the 1990s. There are no million dollar stock options for members of any family on this side.

They have the nerve to get up and raise questions like that. An Honourable Member: Have you looked in the directory lately? Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Tweed: The government employees direc tory looks like a who's who of who knows Cabinet ministers and government members on that side. Again, I will ask the Premier: Will he do the right thing, since none of his Cabinet ministers seem to know what is going on when you ask them individual questions, and report to Mani tobans through a judicial inquiry as to the goings-on at Dakota Tipi gaming? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): I believe the minister has indicated last week that Deloitte & Touche, is it, has been hired to look at the issue- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain is waiting for his answer. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe Deloitte & Touche is looking at the matter of disbursements. I think that is very appropriate to happen. I am glad the ministers have taken leadership in this matter. It is a very serious issue at that community.

I think all members here should acknowledge the advice of the Minister of Aboriginal and North em Affairs (Mr. Robinson) who counselled us a number of times to the fact that there is a huge conflict in that community. There is tremendous social turmoil in that community, tremendous conflict. The federal government has hired . two bodies, The Exchange Group and, I believe, the Soaring Eagle group, one from Health Canada, one from the federal agency, the Indian Affairs Department. I hope shortly the federal minister, Minister Nault, will utilize

section 74 of the act and have a legitimate election in that community, along with the recommendation from the minister on a mediator. There is a lot of pain and obvious chaos in that community. The longer we wait for the federal minister to order an election, the longer the instability, the lack of consistency and lack of governance will take place in that com munity. Let us get on with the election. Flood Protection Committee Meeting

Schedule Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, the all-party committee on flood protection for Winnipeg and the Red River Valley met in March and the beginning of April. There were a lot of unanswered questions. It is understandable that some time was needed after the last meeting to address these questions. The clock is ticking and I ask the Premier today: When will the all-party committee be meeting again to see the updated proposal which we heard last week is to be submitted shortly and with high priority to the Canada strategic infrastructure fund?

When will this proposal be submitted to the all-party committee for input and review? * (14:00) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I reported at the last committee meeting that it was our intent to proceed with the floodway option with the federal government. There were two parties that agreed with that recommen dation and there was one individual who did not agree with it. In fact, that same individual went and bragged to the Selkirk media that he was delaying the federal Liberals from approving the floodway option.

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4251 I notice this weekend he is now criticizing us for not getting action from the federal Liberals. One position in Selkirk, another posi tion in Winnipeg. We have one position right throughout the province. I suggest the member get one position. Flood Protection Infrastructure Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): There were a lot of legitimate, unanswered questions, which is why the all-party committee was not ready to give all-party approval.

I would suggest to the minister and the Premier when he is going to the Canada strategic investment fund and knows the limits of $2 billion in that fund, I would ask the Premier: Where are the extra funds coming from above and beyond what can be obtained through the Canada-Manitoba strategic investment fund? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, I assume now that the Leader of the Liberal Party might actually have one position. I assume from his question he is not taking the view that he is blocking the floodway expansion option, as he bragged about in the Selkirk Journal.

He is in fact in favour of the floodway option pro ceeding, or is he in favour of the Ste. Agathe option? I am assuming he is now in favour of the floodway option. But, Mr. Speaker, let me assure the member opposite when I went around the committee and had approval from one party and the Govern ment party I did not wait for one individual from River Heights to hold us up. I wrote the federal government that same week. I have discussed this with Minister Manley, I have discussed it with the Prime Minister and we are proceeding with the floodway option with or without the Member for River Heights. Mr.

Gerrard: I ask the Premier, since he is moving forward without clarifying a lot of questions: Has the Premier got a commitment from the federal government? Where are the other funds coming from, except for the pro vincial funds, and why was he not lobbying last week the other premiers for support for a nation al program for disaster infrastructure prevention? Mr. Doer: Let me get this straight.

You have 13 different jurisdictions with a number of different projects that, quite frankly, are in a competitive situation one province to the other, and the member's advice to me is to get approval from the other members to say no to their project and yes to the floodway. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have gone to the Prime Minister. I have gone to Mr. Manley. I have gone to Doctor Pagtakhan. So far the federal Liberal government has not yet stated whether they are in favour of the floodway option, the Ste. Agathe option, or no option. We know where we are going. We are going with the floodway option.

The Conservatives know where they are going. They are going with the floodway option. The Member for River Heights is the only one in this House who is confused and does not have a position. North American Indigenous Games Update Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): After 11 days, the North American Indigenous Games have finished this past weekend. Many Manitobans have volunteered, participated in and watched these games with a great deal of interest. Could the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs please update the House on the accomplishments and impact of these valuable games? Hon.

Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question. I think that, first and foremost, it should be acknowledged that Aboriginal people did in fact feel a sense of pride following the closing of the games on Sunday of this week. I want to commend all 7000 athletes who came to visit the city of Winnipeg during the duration of the North American Indigenous Games. I believe the best way to summarize the feeling of the games themselves is that it was a huge success with tremendous economic spin offs for the city of Winnipeg and for the prov ince of Manitoba.

I believe it was a wise

4252 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 investment for the City of Winnipeg, the Province of Manitoba and indeed the federal government to partake and be a partner with the group that organized this event. I want to thank the volunteers as well, Mr. Speaker, including members of this House, members of this Chamber, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray), our Premier (Mr. Doer) and others for the amount of time they took off their ordinarily busy

schedule to partici pate in the volunteering at the games, which, without the volunteers, would not have been successful. Mr. Speaker: Order. Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I found it somewhat strange that the NDP broke out in laughter when asked about an independent judicial inquiry. I want to ask how funny is it that the Premier's (Mr. Doer) brother was going to get rich offVLT revenues that are supposed to go to programs and children on Dakota Tipi, but because he was caught he is not going to get rich.

How much money would he have pocketed as a result if he had not been caught? My question to the Minister responsible for the Gaming Commission: Is he aware of any other contracts that Mr. Doer has with other First Nations reserves in Manitoba? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I think in the

preamble to this question you see why the Conservatives all the way through have missed the clear and evident point that for five years when they were in government they did nothing: '94, '95, '96, '97, '98 and '99. What we have done as Government is we have required audits. When we did not get sufficient information in January of this year of the last audit, we sent it back. We shut the VLTs down. They remain shut down. We put in place a special operating review. We suspended the gaming agreement August 1. We have acted. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Official Oppo sition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. I ask that the minister listen carefully to the next question. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable ministers, 417: ministers should deal with the matter that is raised. *** Mr. Ashton: Well, indeed, Mr.

Speaker, what is fundamental also, I think this is where the members opposite have gotten so desperate, they keep avoiding to put on the record, as did the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) when he first raised in this House that Soaring Eagle had a contract with Dakota Tipi, as do other consulting groups, including The Exchange Group. The bottom line here, once again, for the member to talk about VLTs, there are no VLT revenues because we shut them down. Mr. Derkach: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach : Mr.

Speaker, since July 16 we have been asking this Government a number of questions and, from day to day, the minister comes back with different answers to this House. We asked who the agreement was with or whether David Doer, Soaring Eagle, had a contract with the Government of Manitoba. I want to table in this House an affidavit sworn in Queen's Bench court on the 26th day of July, 2002. * (14:10) I want to ask the Minister of Gaming who Manitobans are to believe, and whether he can clarify for us the statements made by Mr. Arden

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4253 Pashe, who is a counsellor at the Dakota Tipi First Nation, who said in No. 10 on page 3, and I want to quote: As such, I am advised by David Doer, employee of Soaring Eagle, and do verily believe that the Manitoba Gaming Commission entered into an agreement with Soaring Eagle to provide the said audit on or before August 31, 2002, together with the audit for the year 2001- 2002. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, once again, I do not know if the member recalls when the agreement was signed in 1994, but in 1994 the agreement they signed with Dakota Tipi established the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission. Indeed, once again, I want to indicate on the record, in terms of Soaring Eagle, the document they tabled themselves, which they are aware of through this court process, indicated that the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission hired Soaring Eagle. That has been something that has been the subject of questions, the discussion of this debate for a considerable period of time. Mr.

Speaker, Soaring Eagle was working on behalf of the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission. That has never been a secret. Quite frankly the member is missing the basic point which is that we have acted. As of this day the VLTs are shut down and the gaming agreement has been suspended, something that they never did in the five years they were in office. Gaming-Judicial Inquiry Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach : Mr.

Speaker, let the public under stand why this party is so concerned about where this Government is going. Day after day we get inconsistent answers in this House, answers that contradict the day before's answers. I want to ask the Premier (Mr. Doer) of this province: Because of the history of this issue, will he do the honourable thing now and call an independent judicial inquiry where people can be subpoenaed to come forward under oath and give evidence so this matter can be cleared up once and for all? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Well, Mr.

Speaker, this member should not talk about inconsistencies because right from day one the same member was part of the previous government that did nothing, has repeatedly put statements on the record that are patently false. I want to indicate if he reads the affidavit itself he will understand that the process here was that Dakota Tipi hired Soaring Eagle to provide the additional financial information that the gaming commission required in January of 2002. Unlike in the 1990s, we did not put our heads in the sand. Our Gaming Commission has acted to require that information.

He should read the affidavit because the contractual arrangement has always been between Soaring Eagle and Dakota Tipi. In fact my understanding is even that is no longer an issue because Soaring Eagle has terminated its contractual arrangement with Dakota Tipi. There was no contract with the provincial government. The member knows that. Dakota Tipi First Nation Gaming Agreement Suspension Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the Minister responsible for Gaming suspended all gaming on Dakota Tipi on August 1, 2002, pending the special operating review by Deloitte & Touche.

The minister further stated on August 1: We have now, pending the special operating review, put in place assurance that other gaming activities, including the Bingo Palace, will not operate. Can the minister explain why, despite his announcement, the Bingo Palace was open last Friday night, last Saturday night and Sunday night, and gambling was still taking place? Why is gambling still taking place? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, it is probably the same situation that occurred for five years when the members opposite were in government.

Not only was there a bingo operation, there were illegal slot machines operating and the members opposite did nothing about it.

4254 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 When we suspended the gaming agreement, what we did is we suspended the ability of any legal and authorized bingos to operate under that agreement. So, if there are bingos that are oper ating currently, that is outside of any agreement with the provincial government. In fact, I was made aware of this, this morning. We have made the appropriate legal authority aware of that, because indeed that would be a violation of our laws. I would hope this will be investigated for what it is.

The bottom line is no authorized gaming going on at Dakota Tipi, thanks to the action this Government took. Mr. Hawranik: On a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on a new question. Mr.

Hawranik: The letter from David Doer and Soaring Eagle Accounting dated August 2 and tabled in this House states that Doer was inform ed by the Manitoba Gaming Control Com mission that the bingo operations commenced last week and the Minister responsible for Gaming signed an Order-in-Council on August 1 of this year revoking the authority of the Dakota Tipi First Nation Gaming Commission to conduct and manage lottery schemes. Can the Minister responsible for Gaming confirm that the opening of the Bingo Palace is in contravention of the Order-in-Council?

Given that the minister is saying one thing one day and another thing the next and obviously he does not know the facts, this cries out for the need for a judicial inquiry. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is the member opposite who does not know the facts. I indicated that we had suspended the gaming agreement. Perhaps the member would care to listen to the answer. If there is gaming that is taking place it is outside of the gaming agreement. We have shut down any authorized gaming and the gaming agreement. We have shut down the VLTs.

I suspect members opposite may be aware of this kind of activity because it happened for five years between 1994 and 1999 and they did nothing about it. Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind all honourable members, questions and answers through the Chair, please. Dakota Tipi First Nation Gaming-Judicial Inquiry Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I want to quote from the minister's response on July 31, 2002: "I want to put on record again that it was Dakota Tipi and the federal government that hired Soaring Eagle.

The provincial govern ment has never had a contractual arrangement, has never hired Soaring Eagle, period." That is according to the Minister of the Gaming Commission. Today we table in the House an affidavit. Who is the public of Manitoba to believe? I want to ask the Premier (Mr. Doer) whether today he is prepared to clear the air once and for all and call an independent judicial inquiry where individuals can be subpoenaed, brought forward under oath to clear the air for himself and for this Government. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr.

Speaker, once again, if the member would read the entire affidavit, including

section 10, first of all it confirms what we have been saying on the record repeatedly in Question Period, that the Gaming Commission for the years 2000- 2001 had said the audit that was submitted did not meet the specific requirements of the Manitoba Gaming Commission. The document does not refer to any contract between Dakota Tipi and the Gaming Com mission. It refers to the fact that there was an agreement to get that information put in place, not a contract. There is no contract between the Province and Soaring Eagle. As we speak, the gaming has been shut down, the VLTs.

The gaming agreement has been suspended. We have acted, Mr. Speaker, unlike the members opposite. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question.

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4255 Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, day after day the Minister of Gaming continues to change his story from one day to the next. Mr. Speaker, when provided with the evi dence he then has to change his mind. David Doer, Soaring Eagle, were going to get 15 percent of all gaming revenues at Dakota Tipi until they got caught. It is now time to clear the air. I want to ask the Premier, who has a great responsibility for this issue in this province, if he is prepared to call an independent judicial inquiry to clear the air for Manitobans and for himself. Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, to have a judicial inquiry to investigate the fact that two independent accounting firms, one, The Exchange Group, the other Soaring Eagle were hired by the federal government for work that was going to be done. * (14:20) I have said it before and I will say it again, I do not care who is working for who. I do not care who is in a contractual relationship. I have said it before and I will say it again, we believe that the chief, under

section 74, the existing hereditary chief that they signed a gaming agree ment with in 1994, who had been a hereditary chief, unelected for 13 years, we believe, Mr. Speaker, that power Mr. Nault has talked about should be utilized. I hope the federal Order-in-Council is signed shortly. I believe the public will get an independent disbursement of the funds based on the Deloitte & Touche report. That information will be available to the Government, to the people of Dakota Tipi, to the federal government and of course to this Legislature. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Mr.

Speaker: I have a couple of rulings for the House. During Oral Questions on July 25, 2002, the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) raised a point of order concerning remarks spoken by the honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) while answering a question. The honourable Member for Russell asserted that the honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs had uttered a threat to the member to step out into the hallway. The honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr.

Tweed) and the hon ourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) also spoke to the point of order. I took the matter under advisement in order to peruse Hansard. The alleged intimidation of members is a serious issue. Beauchesne's Citation 93 advises that: "It is generally accepted that any threat, or attempt to influence the vote of, or actions of a Member, is breach of privilege." Similarly, Beauchesne Citation 99 states that "Direct threats with attempts to influence Members' actions in the House are undoubtedly breaches of privilege." It is for this reason that I took the matter under advisement.

Turning to the remarks made on July 25, page 3867 identifies the honourable Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs as saying: "We will talk about it outside, Mr. Speaker" prior to the raising of the point of order by the honourable Member for Russell. In his contribution to the point of order, the honourable minister is also recorded as saying on page 3868 of Hansard, "If he would like to talk to me about that on a personal level, I am certainly free to talk to him. I can talk to him in the loge or outside, and that is what I was referring to . . . . If he wants to talk to me, we will talk about it outside.

Mr. Speaker, that is simply what I was implying." After having read the comments of clarifi cation from the honourable Minister of Aborig inal and Northern Affairs, I am satisfied the honourable minister was not intending to convey a threat to the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach). As Beauchesne Citation 494 advises, "It has been formally ruled by Speakers that statements by Members respecting them selves and particularly within their own knowledge must be accepted . . . . On rare

4256 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 occasions this may result in the House having to accept two contradictory accounts of the same incident." There may be a difference of opinion between the two members as to the intent of the comment, but I accept the word of the honourable minister that he did not mean to imply a threat. I would therefore rule that there is no point of order, but I would also like to remind the House of the importance of members treating each other with dignity, respect and courtesy as we are all honourable members. I have one more ruling.

Following Oral Questions on July 25, 2002, the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) rose on a matter of privilege to assert that the Minister responsible for Transportation and Government Services had deliberately misled the House regarding the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission being in compliance with gaming regulations. After offering comments on the issue, the honourable Member for Russell moved "THAT this House censure the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr.

Ashton) for deliberately misleading the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba and that this matter be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections for review. The honour able Minister of Transportation and Government Services, the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) and the honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) also offered advice on the orderliness of the motion. I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities. There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for a matter to be ruled in order as a matter of privilege.

First, was the issue raised at the earliest opportunity, and second, is there sufficient evidence that the privileges of the House have been breached to warrant putting the matter to the House. On the first condition, the honourable Member for Russell advised that he did indeed raise the matter at the earliest opportunity, and I am satisfied that this con dition had been met.

Regarding the second condition, whether there is sufficient evidence that the privileges of the House had been breached, Joseph Maingot advises on page 224 of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada that an admission that a member had intentionally misled the House would be required in order to establish a prima facie case of matter of privilege. This concept is supported in Manitoba precedents by a ruling from Speaker Walding in 1985, a ruling from Speaker Phillips in 1987, by seven rulings from Speaker Rocan from the period 1988 to 1995, and by nine rulings from Speaker Dacquay from the period 1995 to 1999.

In her 1987 ruling, Speaker Phillips stated: A member raising a matter of privilege with charges that another member has misled the House must support his or her charge with proof of intent. As ruled by Speaker Dacquay on April 20, 1999: Short of a member acknowledging to the House that he or she deliberately and with intent set out to mislead, it is virtually impossible to prove that a member deliberately misled the House. I would note that the honourable Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton) did not identify to the House that he had intentionally misled the House.

Although the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) cited that the honourable Minister of Transpor tation and Government Services provided different information to the House on several occasions, he did not provide proof that the minister purposefully intended to mislead the House, nor did the minister admit that he set out to deliberately mislead the House. I would therefore rule that the matter is not in order as a prima facie case of privilege. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I respect your ruling, but I have great difficulty with your ruling, because Hansard does provide the proof.

Subsequently, I challenge your ruling. Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. * (14:30) Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, say yea.

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4257 Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to sustaining the ruling of the Chair, say nay. Some Honourable Members : Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr. Derkach : Mr. Speaker, I am asking for Yeas and Nays. Mr. Speaker: Yeas and Nays. A vote having been requested, call in the members. The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained.

Division A RE CORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Aglugub, Allan, Ashton, Asper, Barrett, Caldwell, Cerilli, Dewar, Doer, Friesen, Jennissen, Korzeniowski, Lath/in, Lemieux, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGiff ord, Mihychuk, Nevakshonoff, Reid, Robinson, Rondeau, Sale, Santos, Schellenberg, Selinger, Smith (Brandon West), Struthers, Wowchuk. Nays Cummings, Derkach, Driedger, Dyck, Enns, Faurschou, Gerrard, Gilleshammer, Hawranik, Helwer, Laurendeau, Loewen, Maguire, Mitchelson, Penner (Emerson), Penner (Steinbach), Pitura, Reimer, Rocan, Schuler, Smith (Fort Garry), Tweed.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 30, Nays 22. Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Islendingadagurinn Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to put a few words on the record about one of the most popular events in the Gimli constituency. This past weekend, I along with the Member for K.irkfield Park (Mrs. Stefanson), had the pleasure of attending the Icelandic Festival in Gimli. It is Islendingadagurinn. Throughout its 113 years, the Icelandic Festival has brought together thousands of people from around the world for fun, food, festivities and family.

It is a unique opportunity to celebrate Manitoba's rich cultural Icelandic heritage. The Icelandic Festival's popularity is en during. In fact, it is the second-oldest ethnic festival in Canada. It is held every August long weekend and has become a must-do activity in many people's summer vacation plans. This popular festival attracts more than 40 000 people a year to a town that normally has only 1800 residents.

This year's festival offered a great mix of new and traditional activities, including the ever popular pancake breakfast, art shows, sandcastle contest, beach volleyball, road races, fireworks, midway and of course the fabulous grand parade. The Saga Singers from Iceland, who performed a Viking musical, were well received. One of last year's new events, the Gimli Film Festival, proved so popular that it returned again this year.

When I see the amount of work that goes into this festival, and the many other events that take place throughout the Gimli constituency, I am reminded of how proud I am to represent this region of the province. There are literally hun dreds of hardworking volunteers in Gimli and the area who organize this massive undertaking every year in order to preserve the Icelandic heritage. To all the volunteers who worked so tire lessly to make the Icelandic Festival possible, thank you from all of us who attended the festival. Your hospitality was second to none.

You left us with a greater appreciation of what an important role Iceland has had to play in Manitoba's history and culture. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. North American Indigenous Games Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure and pride that I rise in this

4258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 Legislature today to speak of one of the premier sporting events of the year, the North American Indigenous Garnes, the largest multi-sport and cultural celebration of its kind in Canada. More than 6000 athletes participated in a total of 16 sporting events during the 11 days in various locations throughout the city of Winni peg. Our city and our province became the meeting place for more than 15 000 visitors from across North America, South America and Europe. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to congratulate the thousands of volunteers, the hospitality of the people of the province, the athletes, coaches, staff, cultural performers, corporate sponsors and the 2002 North American Indigenous Garnes host society, all of whom made this unique sports and cultural gathering a great success. I would like to express special thanks to the more than 1000 Manitoba athletes and their coaches for the outstanding level of participation during the competition. I understand that Mani toba won in the medal competition.

I would also like to thank the people who actually brought the games to Winnipeg, who many years ago bid on the games, worked it through many years and actually brought it to such a success. As a long-time contributor to the Indigenous Garnes, I am pleased to see the high level of participation from the people of our province. It was a pleasure to see the young men and women that I coached over the last decade that are now giving their time and knowledge as coaches and volunteers at this year's games. It was nice to see them giving back to their community and to the province.

It is also great to see many of the people from Assiniboia volunteering at many of the venues throughout the city. These games have been an opportunity to recognize and celebrate the leadership and dedication of Manitoba's First Nations and Metis people. They have left a powerful legacy of knowledge and experience within our Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal com munities, along with a re-affirmation of what we as Manitobans can accomplish. * (14:40) Metis singer Phil Desjarlais's quote in today's Free Press says it all: "I'm very humbled to be here, actually. It's great. This whole scene is just beautiful.

It makes us all proud." We are all indeed proud about this great achievement. Thank you. Manitoba Festivals Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to rise today to congratulate all the volunteers and organizers that organized the Manitoba Sunflower Festival which was held last weekend. There were some 120 floats that participated in the parade, and there were thousands of people that lined the streets of Altona, Manitoba to view the floats and to participate in the celebrations that were to follow in the next couple of days.

I also want to thank the sponsors and the participants in the all-congregational church service that was held on Sunday morning. It was a great event. The second part that afternoon, there was something that is held traditionally amongst the Mennonite communities. That is having faspa of watermelon and rollkuchen in the afternoon. I believe everybody that was there enjoyed that event. I also want to congratulate the organizers of the Flower Festival at Gardenton, the Ukrainian community and the Ukrainian celebration that took place at Gardenton as well.

I want to thank and congratulate the organizers of that event and the tremendous number of volunteers that partic ipated in organizing. This last weekend, I participated in the Blue berry Festival at Piney. The reason I say this, I think this just demonstrates how diverse a constituency I represent and how diverse the people are in celebrating the various events and their heritage and their backgrounds. The Blue berry Festival, again, I think, was a clear indi cation of people taking the time to organize a celebration and celebrate the great wealth of traditions that we have in this province.

Y ouville Centre Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Located in Riel con stituency, Y ouville Centre is a non-profit health

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4259 resource centre established by the Grey Nuns. Opened in January 1996, the centre offers a variety of excellent programs and a resource library as well as a computer through the Com munity Connections program for community use. A second centre on Marion was opened in 1984. Y ouville Centre aims to enhance the health of individuals, families and communities.

Some of its programs include: Taking Steps Bereave ment Walking Group, an eight-week grief support education and walking group for people coping with the loss of a loved one; the Young Expectations series, a prenatal education and support program for adolescents and young adults expecting babies; Eat Healthy, Feel Good program, information about a variety of related topics, including healthy eating and coping with stress; Type 2 Diabetes Education program; and a health series for mature women. Youville Centre also houses Boni-Vital Council for Seniors, a resource program that initiated the ERIK kit.

Y ouville Centre serves all ages. It provides information for people to make informed choices. The community is very grate ful to Sylvia Oosterveen, executive director; Suzanne Zonneveld, site co-ordinator; and You ville Centre staff members for their commitment to improving our health. Thank you all for your valuable contribution to our community in Riel. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. St. Pierre-Jolys Frog Follies Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise today to announce an exciting event that Evelyn and I were priv ileged of participating in in the Morris constit uency this past weekend. That is the St. Pierre Frog Follies. Who could love anything more than watching our little green friends jump with all their might to try to win this competition? To honour this annual event, St. Pierre-Jolys hosted a weekend of activities including children's entertainment, the parade and much, much more. Here is a bit of history about frog jumping. It began when a group of St.

Pierre residents decided to develop a unique and memorable way to welcome people into their small town. On July 14, 1970, Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles visited St. Pierre-Jolys. They were greeted by a crowd of 5000 Franco-Manitobans who were just hopping to begin their weekend long welcome gala festivities, the most exciting event being the ever popular frog jumping com petition. Mayor Femand Lavergne had issued a public challenge to politicians and mayors of other towns to attend the festivities and to each bring a little green competitor with them.

The occasion was most defmitely successful as it was thoroughly entertaining. The winner of this mo mentous competition was Mr. Albert Driedger, Reeve of the Hanover Municipality, with his frog, Georges, who jumped an incredible seven feet one and a quarter inches. But, just like the Olympics, Mr. Speaker, frogs are jumping farther. This year, the winning frog jump was over 12 feet. To this day, the competition lives on.

For those of you planning to participate, here are a few tips on selecting your little green gaffers: No. 1, you can rent frogs from the Lily Pad Frog Farm or bring your own from home; No. 2, the hind legs must be muscular and strong; No. 3, the nose should be evenly shaped to guide the frog in a straight direction; No. 4, your frog should not be too big or too small, it should be just right; and, No. 5, do not hold the frogs in captivity too long or they may bond with you and refuse to jump away.

So, keeping all this in mind, on behalf of all the members of this Chamber, I would like to pay tribute to this historic and exciting event and encourage all Manitobans to take part. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is leave to waive private members' hour? Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement to waive private members' hour for today? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintos h: Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is leave for two

4260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 sections of the Committee of Supply to meet in Rooms 255 and 254 simultaneously with the House this afternoon while the House considers legislation? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for two sections of the Committee of Supply to meet in Rooms 255 and 254 simultaneously with the House this afternoon while the House considers legislation? Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you also canvass the House to see if there is leave to sit this evening from 6:30 p.m. until midnight to consider Estimates in three sections? Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the House to sit this evening from 6:30 to mid night to consider Estimates in three sections? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you can vass the House to see if there is unanimous consent for the House to vary its sitting hours tomorrow morning and Thursday morning to sit from 8:3 0 until noon and for Thursday, of course, instead of from 10 until noon? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the House to vary its sitting hours tomorrow morning and Thursday morning to sit from 8:30 to 12 noon, instead of from 10 a.m. to 12 p.m? [Agreed] * (14:50) Mr.

Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, before calling debate on second readings, the Government will not be proceeding at this time with Bill 12. Would you please call the bills in the following order: 27, 41, 49, 39 and, by leave, 304? Mr. Speaker, in addition, following calling of 304 by leave, would you call Bill 204 by leave? Mr. Speaker: Just for information of the House, Bill 204 will follow 304, and they both require leave, once we reach that stage. Okay. That is just for information. We will resume debate on second reading, and the Government has announced it will not be proceeding with Bill 12.

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Biii 27-The Safer Workplaces Act (Workplace Safety and Health Act Amended) Mr. Speaker: We will move to Bill 27, The Safer Workplaces Act (Workplace Safety and Health Act Amended), standing in the name of the honourable Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Portage la Prairie? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: No? It has been denied. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Briefly, Mr.

Speaker, I am in general support of this bill and a better workplace, health and safety, but I have some concerns about certain sections of this bill. There is considerable diversity of opinion when one is looking at safety and safe processes whether the sort of administrative penalties are a plus or a negative. I think this is an area which needs to be looked at very carefully. I hope we get some good input at the committee stage on this and a number of other clauses. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr.

Speaker: The question before the House is Bill 27, The Safer Workplaces Act (Workplace Safety and Health Act Amended). Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bi11 41 -The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 41, The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner). Is it the pleasure of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Steinbach?

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4261 Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: It has been denied. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I appreciate the opportunity to put some words on the record regarding Bill 41. I think this bill really brings home what this Government is all about, that is, a government of broken promises, a government that runs by a hidden agenda and a government that cannot manage. Mr.

Speaker, this bill demonstrates clearly and will continue to demonstrate for years to come to Manitobans how badly this Government has managed the finances of the Province of Manitoba in their just over two years of govern ing. I do want to make it clear that my criticism of this bill is to be directed clearly and directly at the Premier (Mr. Doer) of this Province who is behind this bill, particularly with his closest advisors, what one would look at as yesterday's NDP. There is no doubt that the Premier, Mr. Doer, Mr. Kostyra and Mr.

Schroeder, who is the chairman of Manitoba Hydro, have clearly been at work behind the scenes and put the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) in an unten able position. I want to say from the outset, Mr. Speaker, that I do have respect for the Minister of Fi nance. He has shown that he has integrity throughout his two and a half years as Minister of Finance.

Unfortunately, in this case, he has been put in a position by the Premier and by the Premier's advisors where he has been forced to day in and day out stand up and try to justify to the people of Manitoba why it is that this Government is forced to go into Hydro and raid $288 million, not out of a pot of cash sitting at Manitoba Hydro, but in fact even worse. They are going to Manitoba Hydro and forcing them to borrow money in order to help the Doer government out of its problem with its $!5 0- million deficit from last year and in fact the operating deficit that they will again have this year. Mr.

Speaker, to lay out this story, we have to go back to March of 2001. That is really when the crux of this matter began to unfold. At that time we advised the Minister of Finance that he needed to pay careful attention to the economic downturn that was in the works in the U.S., that there was certainly going to be a spillover into Canada and into the province of Manitoba, and he needed to get his fiscal house in order. He needed to get his Government's spending under control. Otherwise, this Government was head ing down the road for deficit financing. The minister refused to acknowledge that at that time.

As a matter of fact, he instead chose to in glowing terms describe how Manitoba's economy was still moving ahead. According to the statistics there was still economic growth in the province of Manitoba. But what was hap pening behind the scenes, and he must have been aware of it, he must have seen it, and hopefully he had the strength to advise his Premier of that, in fact corporate profits were on the wane. All across the U.S., all across North America, because of the economic recession we saw the corporate profits run a downturn.

The result could only lead to government revenues being on the downfall as those reduced profits in turn reduced the amount of income taxes that cor porations were going to pay to both the federal government and the provincial government. But the minister refused to acknowledge that. As a matter of fact, the first time he acknowledged it I believe on the record was in this year's Budget. So we knew a year and a half ago that this Government was in for tough times. Economists were predicting it. We advised them. Did they react? No.

They chose to ignore and they merrily went along their way, increasing their spending in virtually every department and increasing it significantly in many, many departments, all the while trying to convince themselves that some how the economic downturn would go away and the money would keep flowing. Well, Mr. Speaker, that did not happen, as we knew it would not. As a matter of fact, we found out when the Government finally released its six-month statements last year, and they released them towards the end of December.

We finally found out from this Finance Minister that this Government was in serious, serious trouble. At that point they started floating solutions. Their first thought was, well, we will raid the

4262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 rainy-day fund for $185 million. That was announced at the end of December. * (15:00) Again, keeping with this Government's agenda of managing by deception, they released those statements shortly after Christmas when most Manitobans were either still on Christmas vacation or really not paying attention to the financial affairs of their Government because they were in the mood to celebrate another new year.

Purposely, when people were away, when people were on vacation, this Government and this minister made a purposeful decision to re lease this bad news hoping that Manitobans would not find out, would not pay attention, and life would just go merrily along. Mr.

Speaker, I am sure they were shocked and devastated at the response from Manitobans who indicated clearly, in very clear terms to this Government, that if they ended up in a situation where they had to drain the rainy day fund of $185 million and risk the total collapse of the rainy day fund due to their mismanagement, due to their overspending within two years, as was the path this Government was clearly headed down, that there would be a serious price to pay from the voters in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Now, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we did not hear much until later in February, when the Govern ment released to the public new information, information that there had been a federal ac counting error and that, in fact, perhaps, perhaps the federal government was going to be demand ing a significant amount, an amount in the hundreds of millions of dollars from the Prov ince of Manitoba; and, again, their story: Oh, woe is me. What are we going to do? We might be faced with this. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that sets the stage for this Government's shenanigans.

This minister announced in his Budget in April that this Government would dip into the coffers of Manitoba Hydro, would go to Manitoba Hydro and force them to borrow $288 million to cover this Government's mismanagement, to cover this Government's spending platform that is totally out of control. During the lead-up to this Budget, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) must have found himself in a horribly, horribly conflicting situation because he is also the minister respon sible for the well-being of Manitoba Hydro.

So on the one hand, he knew full well that Manitoba Hydro did not have the cash, and he knew that because he was asking their advice in late February, in late December, in January and in February. He was getting information on a regu lar basis from Manitoba Hydro as to what effect taking a significant amount of money out of that corporation would have on the corporation. He knew, he was advised that Manitoba Hydro was not sitting on a flush bank account, that Manitoba Hydro did not have a huge pile of cash for the Government of Manitoba to draw on, but he was caught in a situation where the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and his advisers were demanding, demanding that he come up with cash from somewhere because they were seeing the revenue shortfalls and because this Govern ment was unwilling and his ministers right across the board were unwilling to make the tough decisions and to hold back on their spending.

As a result, they were going to be faced not only with a $150-million deficit from last year, but, in fact, they were going to be faced with a situation where they were going to be running a deficit in the year 2002-2003 unless they forced Hydro to go out and borrow cash and pay a short-term dividend to the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this bill that has been introduced, I hope this Government is ashamed of it. They should be ashamed of it, particularly with regard to the

preamble in the bill, because what are they trying to tell Manitobans in this bill? They are trying to convince Manitobans that, as a result of a federal accounting error and, worse yet, as a result of the events of September 11, that this Government has no choice but to raid Hydro to the tune of $288 million. Now, that is clearly deception. This Government knows full well, and, in fact, they were in discussions with the federal government at the time and, I understand, had

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4263 fairly positive discussions with the then-federal Finance Minister, Minister Martin, that in fact the issue about the federal accounting error was going to be managed and worked out in a matter that was fair to all the provinces that were involved, not just to the Province of Manitoba, but to all the provinces. This Government has known, this Finance Minister has known, for quite some time that the federal accounting error would not pose a huge problem to the Province of Manitoba, and that the federal government was willing to deal with it in a fair manner.

He has also confirmed that. That was confirmed in the news in the Winnipeg Free Press in an

article on Friday, where he once again confirmed that even the new Finance Minister, whom we were led to believe by this Government, at some point, was maybe not as willing to treat the Province of Manitoba and the other provinces that were affected in a fair and even-handed manner, but, on Friday, we have the Minister of Finance admitting that he spoke to Minister Manley last week and that Minister Manley, and I will quote from the minister: He realizes it was a federal responsibility, and it is up to them to come up with a fair solution. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, there will be no significant damage to the Province of Manitoba as a result of the federal accounting error. We knew that. The Government knew that. The Government knew that last year when they started discussions. The Government knew that all spring before the Budget. The Government knew that until the introduction of this bill, but they went ahead and did it anyways. I have to give the minister the benefit of doubt. Maybe, somehow, in the far dark corners of his mind he thought that there might be some ramifications, but, I think, really what happened here is that he had no choice.

The Premier, Mr. Schroeder told him that he had no choice but to continue on with his policy because, in fact, regardless of what the federal government did, the money had been already spent. They had already overspent last year by $150 million. They ran a $150- million deficit. They did not pay one penny to the federal government. They are going to take $288 million out of Hydro, presumably, as they say, because of some federal accounting error and because of problems that might arise from that, and, in fact, they know (

a) that they have not spent one penny to date and that none of the $288 million is going to be used with regard to the federal accounting error and (

b) that there is a very good chance that it may not cost the Province of Manitoba one red cent because, as Mr. Manley has indicated, as Mr. Martin indicated, the federal government will find a reasonable and fair solution to this problem for all of the provinces involved. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is one area of

preamble that this Government should be amending, should be withdrawing, but it is not the worst. The worst part of this bill is this Government's attempt to blame their economic circumstances on the backs of the people who perished on September 11. This Government needs to be ashamed of that. That was a terrible, terrible moment in all of our lives to witness those tragic events, to see live on TV what had transpired and to realize that thousands of people had perished in those tragic events and that a great many, the majority of those bodies would not even be recovered.

This draw of $288 million is not about September 11. This draw was about this Govern ment's inability to manage the economy. It was not September 11 that caused the economic downturn. That economic downturn and the re sulting reduction in corporate income tax reve nue for this Province was well underway and the minister knows it.

The minister knows it because he had seen the six -month financial statements and he knew from the projections where his corporate revenue was going, but this Govern ment was caught in a terrible box. * (15:10) In the spring, they tried to convince everybody that everything is all right. The economy is okay. We are not going through this recession that the rest of North America was going in. It is not going to affect us. We have a diversified economy and everything will be all right. Well, in fact, they knew everything was not going to be all right.

I am sure the capable officials in the Department of Finance must have advised this minister and this Government that everything was not going to be all right.

4264 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 Instead of looking for a solution, instead of taking the hard decisions and looking at which of the programs, they were spending taxpayer money on which were not creating the results that were needed, were not efficient, were not providing good value to the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba, instead of looking at those programs and looking at where they could pull back on their spending-perhaps in the Department of Justice where the budget has gone up by over $35 million in the last two years; perhaps they could look at that, understand clearly that money is not being used pro ductively.

Crime was not down. Crime is on the increase. That is just one small example of this Government's inability to manage, its inability to manage the resources the people of Manitoba have given it. For this Government to indicate in a piece of legislation that is before this House that will for all time in the history of the province of Manitoba indicate this Government feels as a result of the tragedy of September 11 they had to go in and raid Manitoba Hydro of $288 million is not only a travesty, it is an embarrassment.

I would hope this Government would take the high road, do the decent thing when this bill comes to committee and remove that reference to September 11 , perhaps instead refer to an economic downturn, because we could all under stand that. Economies go up; economies go down. There are good times, and there are not so-good times. That is what we have seen. We have seen that all across North America. I hope this Government has the courage to remove that clause in the bill and to stand up and admit to everybody, not only the people in Manitoba.

How does this Government think that the relatives of those people who perished in that tragedy on September 11 feel about their loved ones being used as a scapegoat by the province of Manitoba? I am going to ask them to give some thought, to have some feeling for those people who lost loved ones on September 11 and for this Government to do the right thing, to amend this bill at the committee stage to simply indicate because of their fmancial situation, because of a downturn in the economy, this Government needed, in their opinion, to raid Manitoba Hydro for $288 million. I would ask the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) if he would consider that and consider bringing that type of amendment forward when this bill reaches committee. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we will get into the details of exactly what has gone on here and the accounting behind this raid on Manitoba, how this Government has dealt with the accounting, how this Government has dealt with the em ployees of Manitoba Hydro, particularly senior officials at Manitoba Hydro who have been to the Public Utilities Board for a five-year review and have put their hand on the Bible and sworn under oath to tell the truth and have been cross examined by a number of lawyers representing a number of interested groups as well as the lawyers of the Public Utilities Board.

It paints a picture of a government and a Minister of Fi nance under immense duress. This is a govern ment that will not do the right thing when they are faced with the facts. This is a government that has not only ignored what has been said under oath by officials at Manitoba Hydro but in fact has stood in this House on a daily basis almost and contradicted them. From a political perspective, I guess that is what they have to do. I guess that is what the Minister of Finance has to do because his Premier (Mr. Doer) has put him in this horrible, horrible box.

I am sure one day the Minister of Finance, when all is said and done, will likely indicate that, yes, he did know that Manitoba Hydro was going to have to go out and borrow the money in order to pay this dividend because he had the integrity to stand up and say that their promise to fix hallway medicine was irresponsible. I believe he recognizes this draw on Manitoba Hydro as being irresponsible as well, but I believe his Premier has put him in such a position, his Premier and his advisers, that he has no choice but to make the best of a very, very bad situ ation. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in terms of the ac counting, it has been shown clearly that Mani toba Hydro, although it has generated record profits in the last number of years, although its management has been fiscally responsible and has done their best to attempt to keep their spending on capital projects in line with the cash that is generated by the company, and in fact the Crown Corporations Council indicated that that

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4265 target was met last year, that Manitoba Hydro, who needs to spend a bare minimum of $300 million a year on capital expenditures just to keep the plant running, just to keep the hydro generation stations working, just to keep safety at the necessary level, has to spend $300 million at least, at a minimum. That was confirmed by the CFO of the corporation, Mr. Vince Warden, in testimony at the Public Utilities Board under oath. So it came as a shock when the Government released the nine-month report of Manitoba Hydro.

This came after they had announced they were going to take $288 million out of Manitoba Hydro. Contrary to generally accepted account ing principles, this Government chose not to note in the third-quarter fmancial statements and they chose not to restate these third-quarter financial statements to indicate that they were taking $150 million out of last year's earnings in the form of a dividend. This must have been a horrible shock to the senior management at Manitoba Hydro, whose president and CEO is not only a chartered ac countant but a Fellow.

He has been appointed a Fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Manitoba. For him to have to lead an organi zation that publishes a quarterly financial state ment which is in direct contradiction and in obvious contradiction of the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants handbook I think must have been a terrible, terrible event for him. As a matter of fact, Mr. Brennan has stated on the public record, in an interview he gave to a local magazine, that one of his great prides was the fact that he had been awarded a fellowship by the Institute of Chartered Accountants.

This minister forced him into a position where, as a Fellow, he had to issue a statement which was against the regulations of the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants. So not only is this minister in a horrible position, he, in turn, is then putting the senior management at Manitoba Hydro in a horrible position. * (15:20) Mr. Deputy Speaker, that statement for December 31, 2001, clearly indicates the direc tion the corporation is heading. For those nine months the corporation had a profit of $154 million.

Yet their cash position had only in creased by $16 million, and at December 31 the corporation had $14 million in its bank account. So they had already generated over three quar ters of the profits they were going to generate for the whole year. Did they have $150 million in the bank? Did they have $130 million in the bank? Did they have $120 million in the bank? No, not even close. They had $14 million in the bank. This minister has the gall and had the gall to stand in this House and try to claim their dividend was coming out of export profits. He knew that was not accurate. He knew that was wrong.

Yet he had no choice because his Premier (Mr. Doer) put him in this horrible position, this horrible conflict-of-interest posi tion, where he had no choice but to stand up and try and defend a scheme that had been concocted by the Premier of this Province and his closest advisors. The situation did not improve for him.

The situation did not improve and, as a matter of fact, it deteriorated dramatically when the officials of the Manitoba Hydro Corporation, senior offi cials, went down to the Public Utilities Board and swore under oath to tell the truth to the questions that were being asked of them by the lawyers at the Public Utilities Board. What came out of that? What came out clearly was not only that the corporation had no cash, but under oath officials of Manitoba Hydro indicated they would have to go out and borrow money. Mr.

Speaker in the Chair They would have to increase their bor rowings to pay the dividend that was being demanded by this Government. They go on at length under testimony. Under questioning by Ms. Kathy Kalinowsky, Ms. Carolyn Wray went on at length to explain the fact that the corporation has significant profits and has a significant amount of retained earnings does not at the same time translate into that corporation having cash. She was simply ex plaining what everybody in the know-I am including the officials at Manitoba Hydro, I am including the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger), I am including the Premier (Mr. Doer) and I am including his advisors-all of those in the know

4266 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 knew, that Manitoba Hydro did not have and was not going to generate sufficient cash to pay the $288 million that is being demanded by this piece of legislation. They also knew this Government was going to have to change the law in order to take the money out of Manitoba Hydro.

Thank goodness that the people who were responsible for passing that act had the good sense to understand that Manitoba Hydro was going to be a gem for this province and that the worst thing that could happen to Manitoba Hydro would be that various governments from time to time would just reach in and steal cash from the corporation. So they specifically put a clause in The Hydro Act indicating that governments could not take money from Manitoba Hydro, that there could be no co-mingling of funds. This Government, this minister and this Premier paid no heed to that. Instead, they said, look, we need the cash.

It is simple. We are in big trouble here. We have been told by the public just as we were told on the MPIC affair, if we draw down the rainy day fund, that the electors are going to be angry. So we will concoct this story and try and convince them that over at Manitoba Hydro, which is separate and a little more inclined to keep their numbers private we will just concoct this story about how we are going to go and take away from this big pile of cash that Manitoba Hydro has.

But, in fact, the truth came out, and the truth came out very clearly at the Public Utilities Board's hearings, which is the purpose of those hearings. It is the one opportunity where the public gets representation to ask the senior managers of this monopoly very detailed and very serious ques ions about the direction the company is going in. It is the only protection the ratepayers of Manitoba have against either abuses from the company or the abuse of power that this Govern ment is demonstrating through this bill. Mr.

Speaker, it is very clear from informa tion provided to the Public Utilities Board that there are a number of significant, significant concerns that need to be addressed by Manitoba Hydro operating independently and operating on its own and without the heavy-handed government reaching in to reduce their cash position.

They are faced with a very clear reality that, if this province suffers a five-year drought, not only will they go from a profitable situation to a loss situation in the matter of a year, but those losses will be so great that in a period of five years the entire equity of the corporation could be eaten up. That would leave Manitoba Hydro in a situation where they could not even generate enough cash internally to make the payments on what we now learn is over $7.4 billion of debt that is being carried on the books of Manitoba Hydro. Mr.

Speaker, we have a situation, and the possibility of a drought is not some wild incident that was concocted for the benefit of anybody. We are seeing, in very stark terms, the drought that is affecting Alberta, the drought that is affecting Saskatchewan, the drought that is affecting western Manitoba to a somewhat seri ous degree, and, in fact, if it had not been for storms earlier in the spring, Manitoba Hydro would be suffering this year. In fact, all of Mani tobans would be suffering from a lack of water. That would definitely have a significant finan cial impact on Manitoba Hydro. Mr.

Speaker, we also see projections from Manitoba Hydro that did not indicate clearly that they will not be able to attain their debt equity ratios in the prescribed time. We see that has been extended from 2004 to 2009-2010. We also see that ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro are going to feel the pinch. Manitoba Hydro is projecting rate increases of 2 percent a year. It was starting in 2002. Then this Government decided they had better cover their tracks. They had better make sure there are no rate increases at Manitoba Hydro prior to the next election. This is part of their hidden agenda.

It is the same thing they have done with the public insurance company. Instead of going through the natural process, instead of letting it evolve through hearings at the Public Utilities Board, this Government is setting rates at the Cabinet table in order to try and curry political favour with the people of Manitoba. That will come back to haunt them-[interjection] That is right. The mem ber so rightly indicates it is an attempt to take the spotlight off of their raiding of Manitoba Hydro for $288 million.

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATNE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4267 Ratepayers will feel the effect of that. Officials of Manitoba Hydro, again, under oath, spoke very clearly that there was a need for rate increases and, in their view, that there was a need to do them on a small, incremental basis year by year to avoid the situation where they would have to have a very, very large increase in any one given year.

They stated clearly their policy is to keep electrical rates below or at the rate of inflation. * (15:30) Because this Government has tampered with their ability to raise rates, because this Govern ment is setting this type of policy at the Cabinet table and completely ignoring the Public Utili ties Board in its role, ratepayers are going to be faced with some very significant increases after the next election. This Government knows it. This minister knows it. He should have the courage and the Premier (Mr.

Doer) should have the courage to stand up to the people of Manitoba and tell them what ef fect this raid on Manitoba Hydro will mean to them in terms of their rates in the year 2004, the year 2005 and the year 2006. If perchance we do see a drought, and that is a very real possibility, those rate increases will be compounded significantly by this Govern ment's decision to raid Manitoba Hydro for $288 million.

We could well be looking at 6, 8, 10% annual increases in electricity charges as a result of this Government's management and as a result of the deception that has been put upon the people of Manitoba by this Government. As I indicated, debt at Manitoba Hydro is going up and up, over $7 billion in debt this year. This year their debt is larger than the gen eral purpose debt of the Province of Manitoba. This Government, instead of doing the right thing, standing up and saying we overspent, the economy turned on us, we spent more money than we generated.

Instead of taking that honest response to the people of Manitoba, they come here with this half-baked scheme to take money out of Manitoba Hydro to cover up for their problems. They are simply forcing Manitoba Hydro to go out and borrow money to pay for the problems that were caused by the Government of Manitoba. In simple terms, this is off-balance sheet accounting. This is the same type of accounting that got the Enrons and the World corns of this world in big, big trouble. So I would ask them to do the right thing. I see my time is almost up. I do want to indicate that I hope the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) will take the amendments that I have suggested and give them serious thought prior to the committee meeting and have the courage to bring forward amendments that reflect exactly what the situation is that this Government is facing. Because of their mismanagement of the economy, because of their inability to recognize that they were spending far more than they would receive, they ran into a situation where they needed cash, and they forced Manitoba Hydro to go out and borrow that cash in order to fill their coff ers. Mr.

Speaker, I think this minister should also apologize to the senior staff at Manitoba Hydro for the position that he has put them in. We have a situation where most of the senior management went to the Public Utilities Board and swore to tell the truth and said one thing under oath. The CEO did not go there, but they brought him here to committee, and none of the people that went to the PUB came before the committee of this Legislature. So we got a little bit of a different story.

This Government has forced them into a position where they had to twist and tum the facts, not to indicate the truth, but to indicate what this Government wanted them to tell. I admonish this Government for that. They are, in tum, not only placing the senior management of Manitoba Hydro in an untenable position, but they also are showing a complete and utter disregard for process and for the Public Utilities Board. Thank you. Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): I just want to put a few comments on the record about this ill-thought-out legislation and might ask the Minister of Finance if he might stand behind the principles that I know he has as an individual, a minister whom I have some respect for. I believe he came into this position believing he would be able to impact and influence a lot of positive things for the province of Manitoba. I think, Mr. Speaker, he must be extremely disappointed

4268 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 today with his Premier (Mr. Doer) and those that advise his Premier, namely, Mr. Kostyra and Mr. Schroeder. I just want to go back to when I was first elected in 19 86, and the government of the day, the NDP government, had a very small majority. I experienced, in my first days in this Legis lature, some of the underhanded things that had been happening while the NDP government had been in power. We found out very quickly that, before the 19 86 election, they interfered very dramatically with the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and Autopac rates.

Manitobans saw very clearly, after the 19 86 election and they formed government, that the rates in Autopac had been kept artificially low before the 19 86 election. Then, after the election, we saw a gov ernment, the NDP government, by the stroke of a pen around the Cabinet table, significantly increase Autopac rates. Mr. Speaker, I want you to know that the public outrage was immense, something I had not experienced before, and we saw many members of the public certainly take this gov ernment to task.

As a result, it was Eugene Kostyra's budget in 19 88, the same person that is advising the Premier today, it was his budget that was defeated by one of the NDP members on that side of the House when they were sitting in government that caused the 19 88 election and changed the government in the Province of Manitoba. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we see the same kind of activity, and the now-Premier was sitting around the Cabinet table when the decisions were made to not tell the truth to the people of Manitoba on the financial situation of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation before an election in order to get them re-elected, so that they could then manipulate and raise rates significantly. We also saw in 19 86 the sad situation that the Workers Compensation Board was in.

When we came into office in 19 88, we took several years to try to turn that corporation around and deal with the issues, and we are seeing again-now that a NDP government is in power, we are seeing for the first time ever the need to increase workers compensation rates. We have seen time and time again the mismanagement and the political manipulation of Crown corporations by a New Democratic government. What we are seeing today, is the same thing with Manitoba Hydro, where we have political manipulation, political interference with our Crown corporations.

We saw an attempt by this Government to take $30 million out of MPI to use for education, and we saw the significant public outcry. Manitobans have not forgotten what the NDP government did back in the eighties that politically manipulated our Crown corporations, our Crown jewels. We saw the public outrage, and we are seeing again today the manipulation through Manitoba Hydro.

I want to indicate that when my constituents heard that as a result of the $288-million grab, as a result of the borrowing that will have to take place and the interest costs on that borrowing, when we see the increase of the water rental rates at Manitoba Hydro, we realize and Mani tobans realize that this Government is taking a million dollars a day out of Manitoba Hydro. Now, Mr. Speaker, that money is money that belongs to Manitobans. Manitobans pay Hydro rates.

If, in fact, there is to be a benefit, Mani tobans should receive that benefit by way of reduced Hydro rates, or that money should be used for capital expansion of Manitoba Hydro, so that all Manitobans can benefit. What we are seeing here is Manitobans paying one of the highest provincial income tax rates across the country, and also on top of that, they are being double-taxed, because the $288 million that is being raided from Manitoba Hydro is going into the coffers, the same coffers that Manitoba taxpayers pay into, to fund spend ing problems that this Government has en countered. * (15 :40) Mr.

Speaker, I just want to indicate that my 20-year-old son and I had a discussion last night. We do not discuss politics on a day-to-day basis, but he was making comment to me saying, boy, this Premier (Mr. Doer), and he used his name, I will not use it in the House-but says, he sure does not seem to have trouble spending other people's money.

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 4269 Well, that is the mentality of this New Democratic government, Mr. Speaker, and they believe, if they put blinders on, they can justify spending and overspending, and it is other people's money. The money there belongs to the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba.

We know, just looking across the way, that there are not too many on the other side of the House that have ever had to meet the bottom line, that have ever had to meet a payroll and have difficulty understanding what living within your own means and spending according to what you earn is extremely important. They believe that they can just run deficits and try to find the money in other pl�ces. [interjection} Well, the Member for Elmwood (Mr.

Maloway) is one of the members that continues to remind me about the hay wagon and the protest in 19 87 that was orchestrated by Mani tobans because they saw through the mis management and the spending ways of the New Democratic government. I would daresay today, Mr. Speaker, that, if that hay wagon was back out there today, it would have to have kerosene lamps on it. Because of the way this Government is treating Manitoba Hydro, we may not be able to afford hydro in Manitoba, and kerosene lamps might have to be used.

I want to remind the member from Elmwood that it was mismanagement under Eugene Kostyra, who was the Minister of Finance at the time, that defeated that government. I would hope that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) today would take a sober second thought about what the implications of this bill are going to be because I do not believe that he wants to go down in history like Eugene Kostyra went down in history, when his own members of his caucus voted against a budget because they were not being truthful to Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, I think that this present Minis ter of Finance should rise above that and say that he does not want the same legacy and the same reputation following his name as the Minister of Finance as Eugene Kostyra had.

So I would hope that this minister, who, I believe, has some in tegrity, would stand up and be counted, would stand up and indicate that the advice that was given to him by his bureaucrats and those at Manitoba Hydro, who knew the bottom line and had shared that with him, with his Premier, and with his Premier's advisers would in fact recon sider, withdraw this bill and prove to Mani tobans that he cares significantly about the bottom line, he cares about those that under sworn testimony in front of the Public Utilities Board have told the truth, that he would re consider moving this bill forward and have the courage of his convictions , which, I know, he has, and remove this bill, pull this bill and protect the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro and the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words about this bill which deals with the NDP government taking $288 million from Manitoba Hydro. It is of considerable interest when one looks at the long term debt of Manitoba Hydro that, in 19 99, in the annual report released just recently, the long term debt stood at $5.88 3 billion. After a year of government, we have the long-term debt at $6. 61 1 billion. After two years of NDP govern ment, Manitoba Hydro's long-term debt is $6.968 billion. After three years ofNDP govern ment, it is $7. 13 7 billion.

The increase in the debt of Manitoba Hydro is partly related to the need to provide this money to the Government of Manitoba because the Government of Manitoba cannot go out and borrow money under The Balanced Budget Act. The NDP government wanted to make sure that they look pretty and did not draw down the rainy-day fund. It is with sad commentary that the NDP government has taken and is continuing to take, over the next couple of years, substantial mil lions of dollars from Manitoba Hydro. Es sentially, as a result of taking this money, Mani toba Hydro must go increasingly into debt. * (15 :50) Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba Hydro contributes in water rentals and assessments and a variety of other ways to the coffers of the revenues of the Government of Manitoba. I think that Manitoba taxpayers would expect some reasonable contri bution from Manitoba Hydro to helping make sure that the Government revenues are in reason ably good shape. But the way that this was done

4270 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 by the current Minister of Finance, who has become, in a way, the minister of ad hockery, in his last-minute approach to shifting many mil lions of dollars around, has not been an approach which meets the normal standards of good gov ernment and good planning. When you take it the last minute after the year has passed, 15 0 million from the year ju st passed, as the NDP have done and are doing in passing this bill, then it is a poor approach to long-term planning. It is rather short-term ma nipulation.

It is too bad that this Government, which, at times, though it has seemed well in tentioned, has sought to govern through short term manipulation instead of long-term plan ning.

Many of us who are citizens of this province and care deeply for this province would wish for a better approach to long-term planning, in which it is possible for companies like Manitoba Hydro to be able to plan over a several-year period without having to worry that the Gov ernment may dip into its pockets for the coming year or for last year for many tens of millions of dollars in order to meet the short-term needs of the NDP government, rather than the long-term planning needs of Manitoba Hydro and of the Province of Manitoba.

This session of the Legislature which began April 22, about six weeks after the average of the last 30 years which is the beginning of March, is another example of the kind of ad hoc approach to governance that this NDP gov ernment is pursuing. They start late and continue well into the summer, leave people guessing and make it difficult to plan, whether they are legislators or people working in the Legislature or people working in a variety of other areas of government.

It is a sad commentary on the nature and the performance of this Government that they have worked on the basis of last-minute manipulation and an ad hoc approach to the way they do things, rather than good, long-term planning. I have had the occasion to talk to a number of Manitoba Hydro employees who are rather perturbed at the way this Government has operated, perturbed that the corporation in the effort to provide energy to this province has been undercut by these kinds of last-minute decisions.

This ability of companies like Manitoba Hydro, Crown corporations like Manitoba Hydro and people who work on behalf of them, to plan is clearly pretty important, and in hydro-electric power this is probably more important than a lot of other endeavours, because you have to plan long terms in terms of construction of dams and making sure that there is adequate energy supplies for businesses and for individuals and for export.

To have a minister who imposes last-minute decisions with very substantial financial impli cations on a company which should be based on solid long-term planning is certainly a difficulty for Manitoba Hydro and a rather poor example for not only the company but the Province. Manitoba deserves better than this when it comes to leadership. If what served this Province best was the kind of ad hoc thinking, last-minute manipulation as we are seeing from the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger), then it is probably fair to say that Manitoba would have done better compared to other provinces in Canada than it has in the last 40 years, many of which have been the result of a lack of leadership by NDP governments and, of course, some by Con servative governments. But the problem has been that we have not done as well as other provinces, and we should be doing better.

One of the things that clearly has happened is this kind of political manipulation, for the Government to try to take advantage, rather than a government which thinks in the best interests of all citizens and plans in a framework which is most appropriate for the generation of electricity, power and energy for Manitoba citizens and indeed for the prosperity of all Manitobans. When this legislation comes to a vote, I stand opposed to this kind of ad hockery, and I will vote against this bill. It is not a good bill. It is based on poor, last-minute financial planning. We need to do better. Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): I am pleased this afternoon to rise in regard to Bill 41' s debate. I want to register at this time my

August 6, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 4271 opposition to the passage of this bill. I want to state on the record that I believe this particular bill is one that serves the interests of government but does not, in any way, shape or form, serve the best interests of a Crown corporation of which I personally, as a Manitoban, am very proud. I believe the operations of Manitoba Hydro over the past decade have been exemplary. I believe the pride of accomplishment is shared throughout the workforce that is employed by Manitoba Hydro. I know many of them per sonally.

They all are very, very proud of their employees with Manitoba Hydro and treat the success of Hydro as a success of which they share personally. However, there is great dismay amongst the members of the Manitoba Hydro workforce in regard to this bill that they believe, in the long run, is not in the best interests of their employer, Manitoba Hydro. They believe they have made great strides over the past decade in facing down an inordinate amount of debt that the corporation had, carried over from the previous adminis tration when darn projects were under construc tion and a great deal of expenditures were made.

The ability to pay down those debts has been enhanced by the export of power from Manitoba to other jurisdictions, namely south of the border, where the change in exchange rate be tween the currencies of Canada and the United States has enhanced the amount of compensation Manitoba Hydro has had from the sale of hydro south of the border. This, in tum, has provided Hydro with the ability to pay down the debt. In essence, we as Manitobans have taken a greater equity position in Manitoba Hydro. I believe all Manitobans were proud of that fact. However, Mr.

Speaker, with the passage of this bill, all of that is turned around. Hence, as a Manitoban I am personally very, very disap pointed because the operation of Manitoba Hydro has been in the best interests of all Mani tobans to date, but I believe that Manitoba Hydro, in its best efforts, cannot accommodate what this bill requires of it without providing some shortcomings in either service or perfor mance to the ratepayers of Manitoba or to its customers, domestic and abroad. Mr. Speaker, I state my opposition to Bill 41.

I do believe that Manitoba Hydro is a well run Crown corporation which all Manitobans can be proud, especially those Manitobans em ployed by Manitoba Hydro. * (16 :00) I might just say that, on the occasion that Manitoba Hydro employees showed what they are made of, the right stuff, when they went outside the boundaries of Manitoba and entered the province of Quebec to assist in their righting of the power lines that were down by the ice storm and showed a great deal of capability, they did Manitoba proud in their efforts to restore power to those in Quebec that were without because of the ice storm.

When they returned home, we all could be very, very proud of what they were able to accomplish. I also want to say, Mr. Speaker, that Manitoba Hydro has, until this time, really shouldered its fair share of dividends to the taxpayers of Manitoba with low rates to the ratepayers as well as monies paid towards the general revenues fund of the provincial gov ernment through water rental, which ef fectively is a tax paid in lieu of the Crown corporation status being exempt of income tax. They have provided a great deal of resources to the past governments as well as the current government.

In fact, over $10 3 million was generated through the water rental to the provincial Treasury from Manitoba Hydro this past year. I will say that is truly an amount which would be in excess of what that Crown corporation would have paid had it not been a Crown corporation and exempt of provincial income tax.

With those few words, I do want to say that I am not in support of Bill 41, and I believe that it is very short-sighted, but, in no way, do I want to imply any ill feelings or imply any ill effect that I see from a consumer standpoint towards Manitoba Hydro because I do believe that the corporation has come through some very, very adverse times, whether they be from the inor dinate amount of debt that they had from previ ous governments or the storms that plague our province, from time to time. They have restored power to Manitobans in very short order. For

4272 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 6, 2002 that, I would like to say thank you on behalf of myself and the constituents of Portage la Prairie. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No. Any speakers? Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, I only want to rise today to voice my opposition to this Bill 41. It is an extreme atrocity that this Gov ernment would think that they could up and take $288 million out of a Crown corporation in the manner in which they have done.

It is part of the hidden agenda of this Government, and I am only going to take a few minutes to point out a couple of the shortcomings. Our Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) has pointed out all of the technical detail around this particular bill and why one should be opposed to it. I just want to say that this along with the Doer government has felt that they could just bury this one like they did or tried to, the Manitoba Public Insurance, of which they had to overturn in a matter of days, and they have not chosen to do anything of the sort with this.

They have tried to bury this and not make it an issue in spite of the testimony that has been talked about by our Member for Fort Whyte, the critic for Hydro. It reminds me of the five simple promises that this Government had in the election, of which they have broken all of them, including the one of course to fix hallway medicine. That one is still ringing in the hallways of the hospitals in Manitoba. For many who need care in this province, it is just not there for them. They are having to go elsewhere to get that health care.

The point I want to make is that this Government is spending a million dollars a day to finance a raid on Manitoba Hydro that was part of their hidden agenda, that they did not come forthright with the Manitoba voters in the use of these funds. Just to put it into perspective and show that there is no shame in this decision by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), or, perhaps, as pointed out earlier, maybe it was beyond his venue or purview. Even though he has the final say, perhaps it was in the NDP's plan all along to take $40,400 an hour from the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro.

That is what it amounts to when it costs over a million dollars a day to finance a decision like this, $40,4 10. Manitoba Hydro has been a good corporate citizen in the province of Manitoba, has been since its beginnings and has been in existence. It has participated willingly in a number of projects that have come to Manitoba.

I would like to say that if you are going to take a million dollars a day to fund a $288-million decision that was made under somewhat spurious reasons, as has been pointed out, then what will the rate of increase be over and above the 13 percent that they already had in the two years that they had, the 13 percent that was already on the books to be increased. I would just like to point out that this $288- million decision will be forever on the minds of Manitoba taxpayers, as Hydro's debt has now increased to over $7. 1 billion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

An Honourable Member: Qu

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-76b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 76b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	78d448872f1a7dafa94eff770577731a69ee2f89

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