British Columbia Committee Hansard (Blues) — 30 July 2020, p.m., Issue 17 (41st Parliament, 5th Session) (20200730am CommitteeA n17)

20200730am CommitteeA n17

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session, 41st Parliament REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY ,

SECTION A Virtual Meeting Thursday, July 30, 2020 Morning Meeting Issue No. 17 Presiding Officers: RAJ CHOUHAN, DEPUTY SPEAKER SPENCER CHANDRA HERBERT, DEPUTY CHAIR, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ISSN 2563-3511

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC Fifth Session, 41st Parliament SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................... Hon. John Horgan Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance............................................................................................................................Hon.

Carole James Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training..................................................................................................... Hon. Melanie Mark Minister of Agriculture.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Lana Popham Attorney General.................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

David Eby, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ............................................................................................................ Hon. Katrine Conroy Minister of State for Child Care...................................................................................................................................... Hon. Katrina Chen Minister of Citizens’ Services...................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Anne Kang Minister of Education ............................................................................................................................................................ Hon. Rob Fleming Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ..................................................................................................... Hon. Bruce Ralston Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy............................................................................................. Hon.

George Heyman Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ..............................................Hon. Doug Donaldson Minister of Health .....................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Adrian Dix Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ......................................................................................................... Hon.

Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness.............................................................................Hon. Michelle Mungall Minister of State for Trade...............................................................................................................................................Hon. George Chow Minister of Labour ...................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Harry Bains Minister of Mental Health and Addictions............................................................................................................................ Hon. Judy Darcy Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.................................................................................................................. Hon. Selina Robinson Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ........................................................................................................... Hon.

Mike Farnworth Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction..............................................................................................Hon. Shane Simpson Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture.....................................................................................................................................Hon. Lisa Beare Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure................................................................................................................ Hon.

Claire Trevena LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition................................................................................................................................Andrew Wilkinson, QC Leader of the Third Party .................................................................................................................................................................Adam Olsen Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................................................................................

Raj Chouhan Assistant Deputy Speaker............................................................................................................................................................. Simon Gibson Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ................................................................................................................ Spencer Chandra Herbert Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...........................................................................................................................................

Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel.............................................................................................................................. Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...........................................................................................................................

Artour Sogomonian Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ..............................................................................................Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst ................................................................................................................................................................. Jennifer Arril Senior Research Analyst ...................................................................................................................................................................

Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms..................................................................................................................................................................Greg Nelson

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ......................................................................... Penticton Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)................................................................ Surrey-Newton Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) .....................................................Cariboo-Chilcotin Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)..............................................

Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Begg, Garry (NDP) .......................................................................Surrey-Guildford Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) .........................................................Peace River South Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...........................................Prince George–Valemount Brar, Jagrup (NDP).......................................................................Surrey-Fleetwood Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)........................................................

Surrey South Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) .......................................Vancouver–West End Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...................................................... Burnaby-Lougheed Chouhan, Raj (NDP) .................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Chow, Hon. George (NDP).................................................Vancouver-Fraserview Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ..................................Columbia River–Revelstoke Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ................................................................ Langley East Conroy, Hon.

Katrine (NDP)...........................................................Kootenay West Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ............................................................. New Westminster Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ........................................................... Peace River North de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ..............................................Abbotsford West Dean, Mitzi (NDP)................................................................ Esquimalt-Metchosin D’Eith, Bob (NDP) ................................................................Maple Ridge–Mission Dix, Hon.

Adrian (NDP)....................................................... Vancouver-Kingsway Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...................................................................... Stikine Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP).............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Elmore, Mable (NDP).........................................................Vancouver-Kensington Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP) ........................................................Port Coquitlam Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP) ......................................................

Victoria–Swan Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal).............................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ..................................................Mid Island–Pacific Rim Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) .............................................Cowichan Valley Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...................................................Abbotsford-Mission Glumac, Rick (NDP).........................................................Port Moody–Coquitlam Heyman, Hon. George (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Horgan, Hon.

John (NDP) ................................................ Langford–Juan de Fuca Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ........................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) .......................................... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain James, Hon. Carole (NDP).................................................... Victoria–Beacon Hill Johal, Jas (BC Liberal).................................................Richmond-Queensborough Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)............................................................................... Delta North Kang, Hon.

Anne (NDP)......................................................... Burnaby–Deer Lake Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)..............................................................................Shuswap Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) .............................................. Boundary-Similkameen Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ........................................................Vancouver-Langara Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ..................................................... Courtenay-Comox Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal).............................................

Kelowna–Lake Country Ma, Bowinn (NDP) .....................................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ........................................................................Nanaimo Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) .......................................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Martin, John (BC Liberal)....................................................................... Chilliwack Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)..................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ........................................... Prince George–Mackenzie Mungall, Hon.

Michelle (NDP)......................................................Nelson-Creston Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ............................................................ Cariboo North Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)............................ Saanich North and the Islands Paton, Ian (BC Liberal).......................................................................... Delta South Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.) ........................................................... Abbotsford South Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ............................................................................. Langley Popham, Hon.

Lana (NDP)............................................................... Saanich South Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ............................................................Surrey-Whalley Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) .......................................................Surrey–White Rock Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ................................................. Richmond South Centre Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ............................................................................. North Coast Robinson, Hon.

Selina (NDP) .........................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)................................................................................... Skeena Routledge, Janet (NDP) ....................................................................Burnaby North Routley, Doug (NDP) ................................................. Nanaimo–North Cowichan Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ................................................................Nechako Lakes Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ..............................................................

Kootenay East Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ......................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)..................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sims, Jinny (NDP) ........................................................................ Surrey-Panorama Singh, Rachna (NDP) .........................................................Surrey–Green Timbers Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ................................................................. Kelowna West Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...............................................

Parksville-Qualicum Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)..........................................Kamloops–South Thompson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)........................................ West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)................................................ Vancouver–False Creek Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...........................................West Vancouver–Capilano Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ................................................................. Fraser-Nicola Thomson, Steve (BC Liberal)......................................................

Kelowna-Mission Thornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...............................North Vancouver–Seymour Throness, Laurie (BC Liberal) .......................................................Chilliwack-Kent Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ................................................................North Island Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ................................................. Richmond North Centre Weaver, Dr.

Andrew (Ind.)................................................Oak Bay–Gordon Head Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal) ................................Vancouver-Quilchena Y ap, John (BC Liberal)............................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Mission............................................................................Simon Gibson Abbotsford South....................................................................... Hon. Darryl Plecas Abbotsford West......................................................................

Michael de Jong, QC Boundary-Similkameen...................................................................... Linda Larson Burnaby–Deer Lake....................................................................... Hon. Anne Kang Burnaby-Edmonds................................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Lougheed .................................................................... Hon. Katrina Chen Burnaby North .................................................................................

Janet Routledge Cariboo-Chilcotin .............................................................................Donna Barnett Cariboo North.................................................................................... Coralee Oakes Chilliwack ............................................................................................... John Martin Chilliwack-Kent ...............................................................................Laurie Throness Columbia River–Revelstoke .........................................................

Doug Clovechok Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................................. Joan Isaacs Coquitlam-Maillardville ...................................................... Hon. Selina Robinson Courtenay-Comox................................................................... Ronna-Rae Leonard Cowichan Valley .............................................................................

Sonia Furstenau Delta North.............................................................................................Ravi Kahlon Delta South ..................................................................................................Ian Paton Esquimalt-Metchosin ..............................................................................Mitzi Dean Fraser-Nicola .........................................................................................

Jackie Tegart Kamloops–North Thompson .............................................................Peter Milobar Kamloops–South Thompson..................................................................Todd Stone Kelowna–Lake Country .....................................................................Norm Letnick Kelowna-Mission ..............................................................................

Steve Thomson Kelowna West ..........................................................................................Ben Stewart Kootenay East.......................................................................................Tom Shypitka Kootenay West........................................................................ Hon. Katrine Conroy Langford–Juan de Fuca .............................................................. Hon. John Horgan Langley .....................................................................................................

Mary Polak Langley East.........................................................................................Rich Coleman Maple Ridge–Mission.............................................................................. Bob D’Eith Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................Hon. Lisa Beare Mid Island–Pacific Rim................................................................ Hon. Scott Fraser Nanaimo......................................................................................

Sheila Malcolmson Nanaimo–North Cowichan............................................................... Doug Routley Nechako Lakes........................................................................................ John Rustad Nelson-Creston ................................................................... Hon. Michelle Mungall New Westminster........................................................................... Hon. Judy Darcy North Coast ...........................................................................................

Jennifer Rice North Island.............................................................................. Hon. Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................................... Bowinn Ma North Vancouver–Seymour........................................................Jane Thornthwaite Oak Bay–Gordon Head............................................................Dr.

Andrew Weaver Parksville-Qualicum.......................................................................Michelle Stilwell Peace River North ................................................................................... Dan Davies Peace River South ................................................................................ Mike Bernier Penticton ................................................................................................. Dan Ashton Port Coquitlam...................................................................... Hon.

Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Coquitlam.......................................................................Rick Glumac Powell River–Sunshine Coast....................................................... Nicholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie....................................................................Mike Morris Prince George–Valemount ..................................................................

Shirley Bond Richmond North Centre..........................................................................Teresa Wat Richmond-Queensborough.........................................................................Jas Johal Richmond South Centre ......................................................................... Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................................

John Y ap Saanich North and the Islands .............................................................Adam Olsen Saanich South .............................................................................Hon. Lana Popham Shuswap...................................................................................................... Greg Kyllo Skeena........................................................................................................... Ellis Ross Stikine....................................................................................Hon.

Doug Donaldson Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................................ Marvin Hunt Surrey-Fleetwood.....................................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey–Green Timbers........................................................................Rachna Singh Surrey-Guildford......................................................................................Garry Begg Surrey-Newton ..............................................................................Hon.

Harry Bains Surrey-Panorama ...................................................................................... Jinny Sims Surrey South ................................................................................ Stephanie Cadieux Surrey-Whalley ......................................................................... Hon. Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock .............................................................................. Tracy Redies Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................. Hon.

George Heyman Vancouver–False Creek........................................................................ Sam Sullivan Vancouver-Fraserview...............................................................Hon. George Chow Vancouver-Hastings ............................................................... Hon. Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington....................................................................... Mable Elmore Vancouver-Kingsway..................................................................... Hon.

Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara................................................................................ Michael Lee Vancouver–Mount Pleasant..................................................... Hon. Melanie Mark Vancouver–Point Grey ............................................................Hon.

David Eby, QC Vancouver-Quilchena........................................................Andrew Wilkinson, QC Vancouver–West End .....................................................Spencer Chandra Herbert Vernon-Monashee ....................................................................................Eric Foster Victoria–Beacon Hill.................................................................. Hon. Carole James Victoria–Swan Lake.................................................................... Hon. Rob Fleming West Vancouver–Capilano...................................................................

Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky................................................................Jordan Sturdy Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; Independent 2; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS Thursday, July 30, 2020 Morning Meeting Page Committee of Supply Proceedings in

Section A ......................................................................................................................................................... 303 Estimates: Ministry of Advanced Education, Skills and Training Hon. M. Mark S. Sullivan D. Clovechok B. Stewart S. Cadieux J. Thornthwaite L. Throness

THURSDAY , JULY 30, 2020 The committee met at 9:31 a.m. [N. Simons in the chair.] Committee of Supply Proceedings in

Section A ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ADV ANCED EDUCATION, SKILLS AND TRAINING On Vote 12: ministry operations, $2,366,498,000. The Chair:Good morning, colleagues. Good morning, all those who are watching from near and far. Welcome, everyone. I’ d like to begin by recognizing the territory where I am speaking from, which is the territory of theLək̓ ʷəŋin̓ əŋ- speaking peoples, today known as the Songhees and Esquimalt Nations. I’ d also like to welcome everybody from across British Columbia, in the territories of Indigen- ous peoples, north and south, east and west.

I’m really pleased to be able to participate and hear the estimates of the Ministry of Advanced Education. Would you like to begin with some opening remarks, Minister? Hon. M. Mark:Thank you for acknowledging the Indi- genous territories where people are joining us from, near and far. I am at the Legislative Assembly on the traditional territory of theLək̓ ʷəŋin̓ əŋ-speaking peoples. It is my honour to present the 2020-21 spending estim- ates for the Ministry of Advanced Education, Skills and Training.

Before I begin, I’ d like to just pause for a moment to acknowledge the production that people might not see from home — how many players are involved to get us wired up and miked up, with the lights on and the sound checks. It is quite a production, as we cope with COVID. Just to also acknowledge my dream team: Deputy Min- ister Shannon Baskerville; Assistant Deputy Ministers Nic- ola Lemmer, Bindi Sawchuk and Kevin Brewster; executive lead Tony Loughran; and other executive directors who are joining us. Thanks to the members opposite for allowing me to provide a few brief introductions to today’s estimates.

It’s hard to believe that we’re in year 3 of our four-year man- date already, and what a year it has been. The global COV- ID-19 pandemic has affected all of our lives in ways that we couldn’t even imagine: the way we work, who we spend time with, and even how we get our groceries have all changed. Post-secondary education is going to look differ- ent for a while, but we are all working together to make sure it is as accessible as possible.

I’ d like to take a moment to recognize our post-second- ary institutions, which are under immense pressure and are working every day to ensure that students are able to continue learning. Our institutions are more than physical spaces; they are communities led by faculty, staff, trades- people and, of course, students. Ensuring that students can access and be successful in their post-secondary training and education is my ministry’s highest priority.

We are opening doors, which had been closed, to ensure that all British Columbians can access affordable education and skills training. [9:35 a.m.] This includes the implementation of the declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples, as well as the calls to action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Indi- genous people are empowered to participate in the work- force and are building thriving careers to support them- selves, their families and their communities through post- secondary and skills training. I have visited these com- munities and have seen firsthand the transformative power of education.

This includes targeted programs for Indigenous teacher training, driver training for people in the north, and trades training programs. Continuing to invest in post-secondary education skills training will support our economy and empower people to participate in the workforce. Access is key and at the heart of everything we do. We will continue to be committed to moving the dial and opening doors for affordable educa- tion close to home. Last estimates we talked about how Budget 2019 elim- inated the interest on B.C. ’s government student loans, answering a major call to action.

Instead of worrying about growing debt, we want students to focus on learning and for graduates to put their knowledge to action. We made life more affordable for students by a record invest- ment in open educational resources — over $3 million in 2019. Students in B.C. have saved $18 million in textbook costs since the project began, answering another call to action. This year, in Budget 2020, we’ve gone a step further to open doors to even more students with the launch of the B.C. access grant, a long-standing call to action based on research and advocacy.

The B.C. access grant provides up to $4,000 to help with upfront costs of tuition for more than 40,000 students, about twice as many as within the former program of the past. Budget 2020 continues investments in 2,900 tech and engineering spaces, a major enabler for B.C. ’s tech industry, which has advocated for homegrown talent. We also invested in training for health professionals, early childhood education and skills training. We’ve increased funding for tuition, free adult basic education and English- language-learning programs for 20,000 students.

Over 1,300 former youth in care are following their dreams because of the provincial tuition waiver program. Students face unique stress and challenges, and COV- ID-19 added an unprecedented challenge for all students. 303

That’s why we expedited the launch of Here2Talk, B.C. ’s 24-7 mental health counselling and referral service, to post-secondary students. A major call to action from men- tal health advocates and students, both of whom helped design this service. We are delivering on our promise to ensure students have a place to live when they go to school. We have been investing $450 million in the construction of approximately 5,000 student beds over six years, a key pillar of our ten-year housing action plan.

Since 2018, we have worked with communities and our public insti- tutions to fund 1,975 student beds, an increase of 1,419 percent, from the 130 beds that the former government had funded. In 2019, we continued sexual violence awareness cam- paigns that have run in August and January annually. We are also making sure that health professionals in every corner of the province have the training they need, so that communities can access health care close to home.

In 2019, we listened to communities in the north and announced the first-ever nursing program in the northeast and the first-ever northern medical diagnostic sonography program, answering a call to action, which we are proud to deliver in 250 communities. In September 2019, we opened Camosun College’s new health and wellness centre, and just a month later announced the college’s sonography program, a first for Vancouver Island. We also broke ground for the new health care sciences centre at BCIT and announced fund- ing for medical specialist programs.

Affordable and access- ible skills training ensures no one is left behind so every- one can share the wealth of our strong economy. We are providing skills training for people over 55 and support for people who face multiple barriers to employ- ment. We’re investing in skills training and employment programs for young people through the workforce devel- opment agreement. These programs support vulnerable and underrepresented people and help them to get the skills and employment supports they need to get good jobs.

It means hope and opportunity for vulnerable pop- ulations facing employment barriers — survivors of violence, mental health challenges and homelessness. Our government also continued to invest in trades training to ensure that the trades are recognized for their value to our province and our economy.

Our investments mean that we are turning the dial to ensure more women, Indigenous people and youth realize the benefits and advantages of crossing the finish line and getting their ticket and their red seal. [9:40 a.m.] We know that education and skills training is key to our economic recovery, and we will continue to invest so that people can study close to home, follow their dreams and build our province back better. I look forward to responding to questions from the members opposite. S. Sullivan:Thank you, Minister.

I am joining you from the traditional territories of the Squamish, Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh. I’ d also like to acknowledge the Métis, Inuit, urban Aboriginals and non- status Indians who have made their home here in Vancou- ver–False Creek. Thank you to the minister for making her staff available for a briefing by Deputy Minister Baskerville and her team and for making her senior ministerial assistant, Michael Snoddon, available on call. I’ d like to commend the minis- ter on their professionalism.

I’ d especially like to thank Dion Weisner and Nick Heinemann, my senior legislative research staff, who managed all the details of this session. I can tell you the citizens are very well served by the confidence, commit- ment and energy of the staff to keep the wheels of gov- ernment turning. I’ll be asking some questions for the first hour, followed by questions by several members of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition and then members of the Third Party. If there’s time at the end, I will ask a few final questions. My first questions are about the impact of COVID on the ministry.

It has been a wild year, and I know the min- ister has had a lot of balls to juggle in the air. My question is about how COVID has impacted gov- ernment revenues, expenses. I’m especially thinking about any fees for the post-secondary institutions or the private training institutions. I know there’s a cost recovery there. Were any of these deferred? If so, can the minister break down the total amount they deferred, how many institu- tions were involved and the average amount per institution that was deferred? And when will the deferred amounts be paid to the ministry? [9:45 a.m.] Hon. M.

Mark:The post-secondary sector will experi- ence financial challenges due to reduced tuition revenues from declining domestic and international student enrol- ment. My ministry is working closely with each of the 25 public post-secondary institutions to estimate and under- stand the impacts. My ministry will not be in a position to estimate the fin- ancial impact until the fall enrolment numbers are con- firmed in late September 2020. Until then, we are monit- oring the situation closely. S. Sullivan:Can the minister confirm post-secondary institutions are not eligible to post deficit budgets?

I’m wondering: if there is a significant shortfall in revenue at B.C. ’s post-secondary institutions, is the minister prepared to aid them financially? Or what options do these insti- tutions have? Will they be required to increase fees and tuition or, potentially, lay off staff and faculty to ensure a balanced budget? During our briefing, the ministry staff said they won’t know enrolment until later in the school year. Is the min- 304 Committee of Supply,

Section A Thursday, July 30, 2020

istry currently operating with the assumption that post- secondary institutions won’t require increased financial aid? This would be a question. [9:50 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark:I will be working with each of the public post-secondary institutions for the budget forecasts once the fall enrolment numbers are confirmed and the budget has confirmed the financial implications. We will be work- ing with the Minister of Finance on options. That includes seeking approval, if necessary, from the Minister of Fin- ance and at each of the institutions on what the forecast will be.

It’s too early to speculate on the financial implications at this time. At this moment, there are no increased fees. S. Sullivan:Thank you, Minister. Now, I don’t need to have any certain figures. I mean, this is estimates. So we know that there is a lot of wiggle room. Has the minister been briefed about preliminary figures of what the revenue, the expenses, potential short- falls and the status of the institutions will be in terms of their final budget?

I’m just hoping that I could at least get a sense, an estimate, as we say, of the financial situation both of her ministry and of the institutions. [9:55 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark: To the second part of the member’s question, there is no impact on the ministry’s budget at this time. I have been briefed at a high level but not institu- tion by institution. My staff are working closely with each institution and monitoring — it is a very dynamic situ- ation on how enrolment looks for the fall — to see where the losses or gains in revenues will be.

As you may or may not know, students enrol, but who actually attends by the end of September pays their tuition. That is how dynamic it is, and we won’t know until the end of September. [10:00 a.m.] S. Sullivan:Okay. I’m just trying to get some sort of sense. I know that it’s too early to know for certain what the numbers will be, but I know that all institutions and all ministries are constantly doing updated budgeting. So has the minister…? I know that the minister is obligated to share that at estimates.

Is the minister saying that she has not been briefed even on the estimated budget and revenue implications, expense implications for the ministry and for the institu- tions? I don’t need to get any details. I just need to get estimates of what these answers are. Hon. M. Mark: I have received a high-level briefing about the potential forecast scenarios. It’s too early to speculate without final enrolment numbers being con- firmed. It’s like this every year. We won’t know until stu- dents show up. I appreciate that you want to look forward and have that certainty and affirmation. So do I.

There is a lot of uncer- tainty because of COVID. But year over year, the institu- tions have different scenarios based on their semesters and enrolment, and we won’t know what the revenue looks like and what the budgets look like until students sign up and get to class. I appreciate the member’s question. We are seeing strong enrolment numbers. Therefore, I’m seeing…. I want to be optimistic that the numbers look like they’re going up. S. Sullivan:Well, all budgets, even the budgets at the beginning of the year, are estimates, and they are subject to lots of changes.

There’s constant planning that goes on and constant readjustments. I guess I’m not getting any numbers at all, any estimates. So I think that I’ll just go to more philosophical ap- proaches. I will move into a different area.

First of all, I do want to just acknowledge that the most striking part of the ministry service plan and budget is the drive for Aboriginal academic participation and excel- lence, and I acknowledge the minister for her strong pas- sion and commitment to this. [10:05 a.m.] There are two theories about how to achieve participa- tion and excellence for populations that haven’t tradition- ally been part of that. One is to funnel resources into larger institutions, which have certain advantages, and the other is to put resources into smaller, stand-alone institutions.

I’m quite fascinated by the debate that’s taking place in the United States between the public college system and the Black colleges, for example. It’s a very interesting debate on what is the best way to integrate and to have great achievements. The larger institutions have these advantages of scale, but the smaller institutions can be more responsive to individual needs and cultural issues. My question to the minister is about the funding. She has been very…. I want to acknowledge the minister on her efforts to carve out funding for Aboriginal participa- tion and excellence.

How much is she funding larger insti- tutions with these broader mandates? And how much is going to smaller, stand-alone institutions that have Abori- ginal-focused mandates? I do know that…. Well, my concern is…. In the future, will ministers have the same passion she does? Will that just be a line item versus the smaller groups and how they don’t need to be convinced that this is important, because that’s their mandate?

Does the minister have any division of how much is going to larger institutions, mainstream institutions, and how much is going to stand-alone Aboriginal-focused institutions? [10:10 a.m.] Thursday, July 30, 2020 Committee of Supply,

Section A 305

Hon. M. Mark:Thank you, Member, for the question, and thank you for acknowledging my passion to move the dial on reconciliation. I think the Truth and Reconcili- ation Commission has laid out a framework on where we need to go. I’m very proud of the work that my ministry has done with the declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples and the calls to action to address the gaps. Teacher training is a big part of moving the dial. Invest- ing in people in the trades to reduce systemic poverty. The theoretical question that you’re asking….

I really value try- ing to move the dial and being very pointed on where we provide that training. Some technical things that you’re asking. NVIT, Nicola Valley Institute, is a provincial public post-secondary insti- tution. Their operating grant was $7.8 million. NEC, Nat- ive Education College, is funded $2 million through Van- couver Community College. We also fund WSN, which is a part of theNisg̱ a’a final agreement, at $300,000 per year. For the Aboriginal service plan, we invest $4.4 million. We invest $1.75 million for the Indigenous initiatives. I guess what I would say to the member is….

I inherited the file. I inherited a mandate letter from the Premier. We were mandated to move the dial on reconciliation. I have mandated the institutions to move the dial, and that’s working closely with nations. That’s identifying the needs of what nations want when it comes time to training. That’s the self-determination piece of acknowledging rights. Implementing the tuition waiver program was intended to address reconciliation, knowing the number of children and youth in care. I could probably spend your whole hour responding to this question. I think, fundamentally, I would share….

There are 25 public institutions across the province. I expect them to work as an ecosystem. I want to create as many winning conditions for students to study close to home. We invested in Indigenous housing at College of New Caledonia because we recognized that students are travel- ling hundreds of kilometres away from their nation. They may be the first person in their family to go to a com- munity college. The model that we shaped was to invest in not only having student housing but having an Elder. Those are the initiatives that we’re trying to take on. I think the self-determination piece is….

We can’t have a one-size-fits-all to Indigenous education when we know that there are over 200 individual nations plus our responsibility and mandate to support Métis Nation as well. I hope that helps. S. Sullivan:Thank you, Minister. I had noted, when I was going through budgets, that some of the stand-alone institutions have not received any funding increase at all in the last three years. So I assume that most of this funding is going to the larger institutions. I just think it’s important to recognize that some of these smaller groups do provide a very, very unique and import- ant….

It may not be connected to a First Nation. It may be more related to urban Aboriginals. [10:15 a.m.] I have a whole bunch of questions that are more details of her ministry, but I understand the minister does not have any estimates now of the changes that are happening. If she has received high-level briefings, they are not of a kind that can be shared. So I am going to shift more to oth- er questions of policy. Recently more than 100 leading academics, writers like Noam Chomsky and Margaret Atwood, have warned about the impact of cancel culture on universities.

At UBC, the chancellor, who is about to celebrate his 30th anniversary of volunteering and fundraising, had to resign because he had liked the wrong tweets. UBC itself can- celled a speech that had been organized by a gay Viet- namese child of refugees about his experience with cancel culture. UBC has recently announced it would cancel future speakers organized by students of, or connected to, the UBC Free Speech Club. These students, young people, have been actually targeted by people at the university.

Now, this goes against the tradition of the university of exposing students to different ideas and to rigorously sup- porting free thought and free speech and academic free- dom. Some governments around the world are tying pub- lic funding to a policy of openness, of exposing students to a variety of opinions and to academic freedom. My question to the minister. Has she considered imple- menting such a policy that would ensure academic free- dom in British Columbia? [10:20 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member opposite. We have no intention here in B.C. to tie money to aca- demic freedom.

I appreciate the policy question, and I’m happy to have a brief with the member at a later date with respect to estimates. There are no decisions financially, related to our budget, to this question. But I do want to underscore

section 48 of the University Act on what I’m not allowed to do. A primary role as minister is to not interfere with academic autonomy and freedom of the institutions. There is no budget impact or decisions being made at this moment. There is no intention to amend the University Act or the colleges act, and our role, especially as the elected, is to respect the academic independence. S. Sullivan:The reason I’m not asking budget-related questions is because the minister has not been able to give me any budget information.

Clearly, the Minister of Fin- ance, who had committed that the ministries would be dis- closing whatever they knew…. That’s not happening right now. So I am going to ask…. I only have time for one more question. I’m going to 306 Committee of Supply,

Section A Thursday, July 30, 2020

try to fit in two, which I hope the minister can…. These are very detailed ones. The Society of B.C. Veterinarians worked with the Ministry of Advanced Education to con- duct a labour market study, which demonstrated a serious shortage of veterinarians in B.C. B.C. ’s regional veterinary university, the Western College of Veterinary Medicine, has 20 extra available seats that B.C. can secure today. [10:25 a.m.] One of the questions is: why is the minister leaving qualified B.C. students unable to get an education at this college at the rate of $12,000 in tuition?

Instead, if they go, they’re going to have to pay $55,000 per year. I know this is supported by Minister of Agriculture Lana Popham and recently retired chief veterinary officer Dr. Jane Pritchard. One other question is about the COVID recovery funds for the Thompson Rivers University campus in Williams Lake and any new funding for a First Nations program at the Williams Lake campus as well. If the minister is able to give me just a few responses on that, I’ d be very grateful. Hon. M. Mark:I just want to respond to the member opposite for his comments.

He’s repeatedly said that I am not providing detailed information. I’m a bit disappointed that the member is suggesting that. This process is estimates for the ministry’s budget, not the institutions’ budgets. We’re here to discuss Budget 2020-2021. The final numbers are not confirmed. It’s spec- ulative, and to go onHansard with suggested or estimated made-up numbers is not prudent and not responsible. The institutions plan well in advance for their budgets because of the way the semesters are broken up. We are aware that there will be impacts.

The Minister of Finance has made it very clear that there will be impacts due to COVID, but we don’t know with certainty what those numbers are at this moment. If the member is referring to UBC, I’m aware, as UBC presented its information to the public, what they’re fore- casting. That is their process to work with the board, and it was their choice and their independence to do so. I will happily give the member opposite, especially as the representative of the official opposition, updates as we know them. But at this point, we don’t have the details to lay out for 25 public post-secondary institutions.

I will respond to the questions of veterinarians and the TRU question in just a moment. S. Sullivan:Mr. Chair, is that…? The Chair:I think we’re waiting for the second part of the answer, Member. S. Sullivan:Okay. I note that the time is moving on. Can we move to the next…? Perhaps we could get that later, when the questions…. I’ d like to be able to move to…. The Chair:Are you asking that the minister provide the answer in writing? Would you like to move on to the next question? S. Sullivan:Perhaps. Or even toward the end of the ses- sion when I have other questions.

The Chair:Minister, it’s your prerogative, I suppose. [10:30 a.m.] S. Sullivan:I’m conscious of time, and I want to make sure all of my fellow MLAs get their questions in. The Chair:Y es, I know the feeling. It’s all good. Hon. M. Mark:Member, it’s entirely your choice. We can respond at the end or give you a written response to the veterinary question, the TRU question, on First Nations funding. It’s entirely your time. S. Sullivan:Thank you. The Chair:Thank you, Minister. I think we are moving to the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke. D.

Clovechok:Thank you to my colleague from Van- couver–False Creek for the opportunity today, and also, thanks to the minister for the opportunity to have a con- versation about a few things. The minister may know that during estimates with the Transportation Minister, I confirmed that the addition of the CBA agreement in relation to the Trans-Canada High- way project had added around $35 million to the overall cost of the project and that the creation of this agreement was about jobs training and apprenticeships.

With that said, even though the agreement has excluded thousands of workers who are not part of the NDP’s chosen unions…. My first question. Will the minister please tell us how much of the $35 million has been allocated to her budget for training? Hon. M. Mark:Thank you to the member for the ques- tion. As the member may be aware, CBAs are within the responsibility of the Minister of Finance. I’m responsible for the Industry Training Authority, and their budget — it’s one of my Crowns — is $98.9 million annually. D.

Clovechok:So I’m to understand, then, that none of that $35 million, although it’s focused on apprenticeship training, which I would assume goes through the minis- ter’s ministry…. None of that money has been allocated to the minister and her ministry, even though that ministry is responsible for the training. Thursday, July 30, 2020 Committee of Supply,

Section A 307

Hon. M. Mark:Thank you, Member, for the question. We provide $99 million to the Industry Training Authority to deliver on-demand trades training programs throughout the province. The CBAs are the responsibility of the Ministry of Finance. D. Clovechok:I certainly understand the point that she just made. But if the $35 million has been allocated for apprenticeship training and continuing education train- ing, then is the money associated with that training com- ing out of the minister’s direct budget, or is it going to be coming from the Finance Minister? [10:35 a.m.] Hon. M.

Mark:Member, you’ll have to ask the Minister of Finance that question. D. Clovechok:I find it a little perplexing when the Min- ister of Advanced Education, who is responsible for the apprenticeships, doesn’t have an answer as to how those apprenticeships will be paid for. Again, let me try it a dif- ferent way. Will the apprenticeships that are associated with the CBA agreements actually be the responsibility of this minister? Hon. M. Mark:Thank you to the member. The Industry Training Authority works with the B.C. Infrastructure Benefits Corp.

They work together to make sure that the appropriate apprenticeship training is in place. But the ITA does that within their $99 million budget. The $35 million that the member is asking about is best asked of the Minister of Finance. The ITA does not receive extra funding. They facilitate the training across the province within their $99 million. D. Clovechok:That still doesn’t answer my question of where that $35 million is going. But we’ll move on from that. On the record, then, it would seem that the minister does not have any access to those dollars.

So it’s a bit of a mystery where those dollars will go. [10:40 a.m.] Moving along. Given the minister is responsible for advanced education and training and apprenticeships and continuing education, I wondered if the minister could tell us and share with us, to date, what post-secondary insti- tutions her ministry has been in contact with in terms of delivering CBA training, whether it be continuing educa- tion or apprenticeships for the project. Hon. M. Mark:Thank you to the member for the ques- tion. I just want to clarify a point around the training.

When we’re thinking of the trades and the apprenticeship system, 80 percent of the training is on the job; 20 percent is in- class instruction. The Industry Training Authority funds the in-class training component. With respect to the member’s question around train- ing for CBAs at institutes, there are lots of layers to that question that we’ll have to follow up with greater detail. There are public institutes, there are private institutes, and there are different training facilities. So there are lots of layers to that question that I’ d be happy to get in writ- ing for the member. D.

Clovechok:I would appreciate that information as soon as I possibly can have it. Given that this project is going to be in the ground this fall, the question I would have, then, is twofold. Can the minister give us an understanding of how her ministry has reached out to Indigenous communities in that particular area, which is in my riding — either the Shuswap, Ktunaxa or the Métis people — to look at apprenticeship or con ed training? [10:45 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark:Thank you to the member for the ques- tions, though. With respect to the twinning of the highway, the ITA works with the BCIB, the B.C.

Infrastructure Benefits Corp., to help build relationships with the nations. I’m sorry. I didn’t catch all the nations that the member opposite addressed. The ITA ’s apprenticeship advisers act as conduits to build those relationships and work together to identify the trades training needs. The Chair:Member, after your question, let’s take a four-and-a-half-minute break. D. Clovechok:I understand the role of the ITA very well, actually. My question is: how, then, has the ITA reached out to the Shuswap, Ktunaxa or Métis?

As it is one of the key components within that CBA agreement, the First Nations will have the opportunity to have those train- ing opportunities. So I understand their role. I would like to know where we are with that reach out and what’s going to happen with that. The Chair:While we await the answer, let’s resume at 10:53. We are in recess until 10:53. The committee recessed from 10:48 a.m. to 10:53 a.m. [N. Simons in the chair.] Hon. M. Mark:Thank you for the break. It gave me a chance to do a quick consult with the CEO of the Industry Training Authority, Shelley Gray.

We will get a detailed response to the member in writing. I think that the spirit of self-determination is to under- stand what the needs of the Ktunaxa, the Métis and the Shuswap are, knowing that they will be unique. I don’t have the details on hand, but I’m happy to follow up as 308 Committee of Supply,

Section A Thursday, July 30, 2020

quickly as possible to get you the details of what the advisers are doing up in your territory related to the twin- ning of the highway. D. Clovechok:Well, thank you for that. I look forward to that information. In time, I would love to have the entire rest of the day to chat about this with the minister. But I don’t. I’ve got colleagues stacking up behind me. Last question, two parts. I want to go back to something that was a little kind of glazed over. I’ d just like to know if the minister, the ITA or the BCIB…. Have they reached out to the local colleges and spoken with them about the apprenticeship training?

The second part of that question is: given that this pro- ject is slated to start this fall, how many actual appren- ticeships have been secured, either through the ITA or whatever means that are appropriate? How many actual apprenticeships are there in relationship to the work actu- ally starting this fall? [10:55 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark: Thank you, again, to the member opposite. I don’t wish to be repeating myself, but I’m not responsible for the administration of the community benefits agreements. As the minister responsible for the colleges and institu- tions and the Industry Training Authority….

The ITA is always working with the public institutions that do deliv- er trades training. We’re always looking at in-demand seats and apprenticeship opportunities. That is fully within my purview, but I do not have the details for the member on how many apprenticeships are working on this project. I suggest that the member opposite raise those questions with the Minister of Finance. B. Stewart:Minister, thank you for your time today. It’s appreciated.

I guess that while I’m giving out thanks, I should let you know that we were thrilled by the recent announcement by UBC — the downtown campus that was announced on the old KelownaDaily Courier site. That is a great addition and very visionary of the people that are part of UBC in terms of their overall…. I just wanted to let you know that that is really a game- changer. The downtown campus and the way that the city of Kelowna has been growing has been…. We’ve been working on this for a long time in terms of the innovation centre.

The synergies that are presented help diversify the economy, and the addition of UBC in 2005, the medical school…. They’ve all been great additions. I think you probably know the numbers better than anybody in terms of that, and we do want to see that continue to develop. The other thing that I wouldn’t want to miss is the investment at Okanagan College, which has created its own set of pressures. Both campuses are close to a popula- tion of around 10,000. I just want to talk to you about capital investments.

Out of the $504 million that is scheduled in your ministry, I’m just wondering what portions of that are coming to UBC Okanagan and Okanagan College and for what projects. [11:00 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark:Thank you to the member for the ques- tion, and thank you for your opening remarks around the expansion of UBCO’s campus. My in-laws live in Kelowna. The innovation centre is amazing. They’ve got one of the best rooftops in town.

I wasn’t there for the announce- ment, but I know that the mayor and local officials were really ecstatic about the growth and, as you say, just look- ing into the future and diversifying the economy — very supportive of that. A big value of mine is to bring opportunity closer to home. I’m a Lower Mainland–Vancouver MLA. But I’ve got deep roots in the north, and I really always want to see those opportunities outside of Hope. [11:05 a.m.] To the other questions that the member has asked, there have been recent capital projects at Okanagan College. There’s the health sciences building replacement.

It was a total of $18.9 million, with $15.4 million from the province. That’s going to be a 2,800-square-metre health sciences centre with integrated learning, etc. UBCO has student housing — it’s called the Skeena stu- dent housing — with $25 million in the budget, $18.7 million from the provincial government through our B.C. housing loan program. There are a couple of projects at the business planning stage. At Okanagan College, there’s a health and wellness centre and a centre for food, wine and tourism.

Last but not least, I’m hoping to have some good news in the fall with respect to student housing at Okanagan College. Hopefully, that helps. B. Stewart:Minister, I had the opportunity to tour the new health sciences building. I had been a part of the Trades Training Centre. It’s a great building. One of the things that I’ve heard from the institutions here in the Interior, including UBC Okanagan college as well as TRU, is still a shortage of physical and occupational therapy programs and training. I’m just wondering. Is that something that the ministry is looking actively at?

I know that these things take years to get to fruition. I’m glad to hear about the wine and tourism centre, as you can imagine. But I do think that this shortage and collabora- tion between KGH and IHA, as well as all those institu- tions in that area, is…. There’s a shortage of it. That is what I’m told. Hon. M. Mark:Thank you for the question. I appreciate the question from the member opposite. I’m aware of the need for more health professionals — such as occupational therapists, health care assistants and Thursday, July 30, 2020 Committee of Supply,

Section A 309

nurses — in communities across the province. In 2019, I announced the first diagnostic sonography program in the north, the first occupational and physical therapy program in the north and the first bachelor of nursing program in the north. I guess why I’m mentioning that is to under- score “the first. ” [11:10 a.m.] Building out these programs across the province takes partnership. It’s working with the ministry. It’s working with the Ministry of Health. It’s working with the health authorities. It’s making sure that the institutions have the capacity.

I can assure you that in the last three years, since I’ve been minister…. Sometimes people have brought for- ward things to my attention, but they haven’t done the partnership work and laid out the plan and presented the proposal. At this moment in time, I’m not aware of a proposal that has been brought forward from Okanagan College or Thompson Rivers University. I don’t have that level of detail in front of me right now. My ministry is happy to fol- low up with the Ministry of Health to look at this, as well as the institutions, to see how we can move forward.

I can assure you that people were jumping off the ground at UNBC to have the opportunity to have those opportunities close to home. It was eight years of advocacy. We’ll follow up. Thank you for the question. B. Stewart:Minister, thank you for that. I think that the success of creating universities across the province — like UNBC, UBC Okanagan, TRU, Vancouver Island Uni- versity and on and on — has shown that there is a thirst and an appetite for a higher level of education in those areas. I know that the funds are not unlimited, and I do appreciate that.

I don’t know if you’re aware that Okanagan College has the highest First Nation student population in the province. I only found that out because I was on the cam- paign team for the trades training centre. It’s important because of the fact that we do want to make certain that they’re able to help in their communities. I guess the concern, or the storm clouds that are out there, is with the student population at these institutions. Where is the shortfall of the revenues, of these institutions in the Okanagan Valley, going to come out of in your budget? I’m told that it’s in the neighbourhood of….

It could be as much as in the hundreds of millions of dollars, in terms of revenue from student registrations. Hon. M. Mark:Thank you to the member for the ques- tion. I have addressed this question already. It’s premature to speculate on what the numbers look like. We won’t know until the fall, when students…. Some students apply to a number of universities, not sure where they’re going to get accepted, whether they’re going to make the move or not. It’s not until the final stages, at the end of September, when they’re actually attending the school, that we’re going to know the exact numbers.

I have stated previously to the official opposition critic that it is irresponsible to just throw out numbers. I appreciate that you’ve heard numbers, but I, as minister, don’t want to throw out numbers. I do want to throw out that what we have heard is that the domestic enrolment forecasts are strong. I have anecdotally heard, from pres- idents across the province, that the enrolments are look- ing strong. B. Stewart:I wanted to thank the minister for that. I appreciate her forthright answers there and look forward to the outcome being a success. The Chair:Member, thank you for your questions. S.

Cadieux:Good morning, Minister. Hello to your staff behind the scenes. Can the minister give me the number for the annual provincial funding for the Police Academy at the Justice Institute? [11:15 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark:Nice to see the member opposite. The Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General provides the Justice Institute of British Columbia with a $1.9 million annual grant to operate the Police Academy at the JI. S. Cadieux: Is that a change from previous?

My understanding was that the Ministry of Solicitor General provided guidance in terms of content but that the Min- istry of Advanced Education provided, essentially, the block of funding for the JIBC to actually operate the academy. Hon. M. Mark:There hasn’t been a change. Our min- istry provides the operating grant to the JIBC of $13 mil- lion. The $1.9 million grant is provided directly from the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General. S.

Cadieux: Given the Justice Institute does fall under Advanced Ed overall, does the minister know the max- imum number of recruits the Justice Institute can put through in a year? I understand, as well, part of the funding for the Police Academy ends up being through tuition. But at the current allocation and the current structure of the JIBC, is there a maximum number of recruits they can train? Hon. M. Mark:To the member, we will get that in writ- ing for you, if that’s okay.

We don’t have the level of detail with us on hand, but we will contact the Justice Institute right away and get back to you. 310 Committee of Supply,

Section A Thursday, July 30, 2020

S. Cadieux:Thank you, Minister. That would be fine. The minister will be aware of the transition that is underway, which the province has approved, for Surrey — for their police to move from the RCMP to a municipal force.

With that, there’s going to be significant pressure on the Justice Institute. [11:20 a.m.] Can the minister tell me the content and what discus- sions she has had with her colleague the Solicitor General in relation to the need for additional funding for the Justice Institute, given that the green light to move forward has been approved by the province and that the board for the police in Surrey has been appointed by the Solicitor General? Hon. M. Mark:Thank you for the question. To your one question…. Have I met with the minister?

I have not met with the minister to discuss this, but our ministries are working closely together. We’re working closely with the Ministry of Solicitor General to determine what the train- ing needs are and the budget implications of those train- ing needs. We’re in the planning stages, but it’s ministry to ministry at this point. S. Cadieux:Well, thank you. That’s interesting to hear.

The Wally Oppal report clearly states that there will be an annual increase demand of at least 30 percent for the Justice Institute, which is significant, and that’s an “at least. ” The question, then, falls: how will the Justice Institute be able to meet that demand? Obviously, there will need to be additional funding from the province, whether that be through the Solicitor General’s ministry or through the Advanced Education Ministry. Regardless, that money will have to come from somewhere.

The plan for the Surrey police transition has the need for those recruits to be trained within about the next 18 months, being generous, assuming their plan gets delayed somewhat. That’s a significant ramp-up and would need to be covered in this three-year budget plan. Does the min- ister have, in her three-year budget, additional funding for the Justice Institute to meet the increased demand? [11:25 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark:Thanks to the member for the question. The Justice Institute, PSSG and our ministry are work- ing on the plans of implementation.

As the member appre- ciates — and I appreciate — there is a tight time frame. The Minister of Solicitor General and I would have to go for a joint treasury request and ask for the funding. At this moment in time, there’s no funding currently in my budget, but our ministries are working together to identify the training needs, the capacity and working on the plan as we speak. S. Cadieux: That will be a good one to take forward because this is going to be significant.

There are eight pages of the Wally Oppal report that specifically reference the need for the Justice Institute to be adequately financed to be able to accommodate a transition of this size, meaning more than 800 recruits are going to need to be trained, whether that be for Sur- rey or to replace the ones they draw from other precincts in the Lower Mainland. That’s going to be a significant increase over what the Justice Institute has been able to train to date.

Certainly, between the Wally Oppal report for the province that outlines this as one of the significant risks to the transition that is being proposed for Surrey and also the Peter German and Bob Rolls report for the municip- al chiefs of police that was prepared in 2017 about the inadequacies of the Justice Institute training to begin with, there are some significant challenges on the horizon for the Justice Institute and for the province to accommodate in order to accommodate the transition for Surrey. At the moment, 80 percent of Surrey residents are not in favour of this transition to begin with.

The Surrey city budget is being significantly pressured by the transition, and certainly taxpayers are saying they have no ability to pay for more. There are significant costs for the province and for this ministry in relation to the Justice Institute.

So I’m glad that the minister is working with the Solicitor General and that the ministries are working together on this, but certainly the transparency on the costs that the taxpayers of the province are going to pick up, whichever ministry that’s going to be through, it sounds like that’s going to be a joint application to Treas- ury Board for money that doesn’t exist in the budget. That’s a significant concern. I appreciate that the minister is working on it.

I’m sur- prised she hasn’t actually had any actual conversations with her colleagues on it, given the political ramifications of this decision to allow Surrey to move forward.

But I appreciate that she’ll get back to me on the questions I raised at the beginning, regarding the number of recruits that are currently trained or able to be trained with the current allocation at the Justice Institute. [11:30 a.m.] I look forward to, through the coming months, getting a clearer understanding for the constituents of Surrey, both my own riding and all of the others, of what the implic- ations of this transition actually mean to the taxpayers of British Columbia.

I appreciate that at the moment, the minister doesn’t have answers to any of the questions, but hopefully, having raised them here today, the level of importance or trans- parency on this issue will be evident to government and they will look forward to producing that clarity for the res- idents of British Columbia in the future. With that, I will end off on my questions and thank the minister and her staff for the answers. Thursday, July 30, 2020 Committee of Supply,

Section A 311

Hon. M. Mark: I’ d like to acknowledge the member’s comments. My constituency is very different than yours. Y ou are facing something that I am not. This is a file that’s predominantly led by the Solicitor General. With all due respect, I completely value transparency. Telling the member opposite that I didn’t meet with the minister is to be transparent that…. I may not, but our staff are working hard. I want to acknowledge the work of our staff on this file and the issues that have been raised. And to also recognize that we are….

There has been a lot of dis- cussion about the pandemic, but the pandemic does have an impact on people’s capacity to meet, and raising this with me is exactly what estimates is all about. I’m happy to have my staff follow up and get some details to you as quickly as possible. Thank you for that, for advocating on behalf of your constituents. J. Thornthwaite:I’ve just got one question.

What is the government doing to support colleges and universities to deal with the added safety expenses to deal with COVID as well as the additional technological requirements to teach and support students in a virtual environment? [11:35 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark:Nice to see the member opposite. Thank you for the question. The public post-secondary institutions are managing their costs for cleaning supplies within their existing budgets, as well as managing the tech-related online expenses within their existing budgets.

With respect to my ministry, we’ve invested $400,000 specifically for open education resources that are available at no cost to students and instructors across a wide range of subject areas. This will help, just so that institutions don’t have to recreate the wheel on the delivery of popular curriculum and that they’re sharing and pooling their best practices together. Institutions are also working with BCNET on joint pro- curement to obtain reduced-cost access to software and hardware. Essentially, it’s a bulk purchasing venue for the institutions to purchase from. L.

Throness:I have a simple factual question for the minister today about early childhood educators. I’m won- dering, for the latest period of record, how many training spots in total there are in the province for early childhood educators. I’m wondering how many students are actually occupying those spots. Third, I’m wondering how many qualified early childhood educators we actually have in the province. It’s a three-part statistical question. I’m wondering if the minister can address those for me. [11:40 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark:Thank you to the member opposite for the question.

I’m deeply passionate about addressing the qualified piece of early childhood educators. I just want to recognize the important work that they do across the province. We often say it’s not babysitting. We want ECEs to be trained and qualified, and there’s a breadth of training that is offered through certificates or diplomas. We’ve been piloting a work-integrated learning model, where students are getting the training on the job with children — what a concept — and then spending 20 percent of their time in the classroom. We’re really trying to turn the dial on the way we offer training.

To the first question that the member opposite asked, in 2019, we funded, through our block funding, 1,800 seats. To the second question, government announced tar- geted funding investments, as you’re likely aware as the critic. This was $7.4 million over three years to fund 800 new seats. Maybe our 2(

b) question, this year we’ve com- mitted $3.2 million to fund 349 FTEs. On the third question, around how many ECEs are qualified across the system, this falls within the responsib- ility of the Ministry of Children and Family Development. We will work together to get that data to you and follow up in writing, if that’s amenable to the member. L. Throness:Thank you for that answer. Perhaps I don’t understand fully. What I’m wondering, in the second part of the question, is: how many people are actually occupying the 1,800 seats that the ministry funds? I’ve heard that in some cases, it’s oversubscribed.

I’ve heard that in other cases, there are empty seats. I’m wondering how many seats last year were actually filled with students. [11:45 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark:Thank you to the member opposite for the question. For the 1,800 students that I mentioned for 2019, we will have to get you that level of detail on how it translates into seats. I guess what I would just like to point out…. People at home who are readingHansard or listening might not understand that there are public post-secondary institu- tions and there are private post-secondary institutions. The publics don’t all offer ECE programs.

Some of them offer them at different levels. The details to your answer, we will get back to you in writing, if that’s okay. Again, because the level…. Most of the certificate and the diploma course offerings would be at places like Douglas College or Camosun College. Capil- ano University offers a degree. The range of the ecosystem across the province varies. When the member raises the issue of oversubscribed or some empty, I think just also to point out that our ecosys- tem varies by region. Our government is really trying to bring opportunities closer to home. So we’re very happy 312 Committee of Supply,

Section A Thursday, July 30, 2020

to be at the College of the Rockies. It’s a big deal for them to have early childhood educators there, and I’m glad that we’ve invested. But the need and range across the province varies. We will get those numbers to you on utilization. Hope- fully…. Sometimes the oversubscribed is a good sign. The undersubscribed means that there’s always work to do to raise awareness about the importance of various profes- sions, like ECE or the trades. S. Sullivan:I do have a number of questions, but I don’t think they seem to be fitting in the estimates. Perhaps I need to get a clarification from the Clerk.

When my questions are about the forecasted expendit- ures — of course, we’ve had COVID intervene — I would like to know a range or a percentage or a trend. Is that appropriate? It seems to be that different estimates are handling these in different ways. I just want to make sure I’m doing this properly, so if I could get a clarification from the Clerk. What am I able to ask? Am I able to ask about a range of percentages or estimates? Or what direction from the forecasted estimates? My sense is that….

This process is not called “certain- ties. ” It’s called “estimates. ” I think estimates would be fair game, but I’ d like to get the Clerk to identify that. [11:50 a.m.] The Chair:Thank you, Member. I recognize your ques- tion is on…. The minister is here to answer on Vote 12, and where there’s a breadth of opportunities to answer questions, the minister doesn’t have to do any projections beyond what is stated in Vote 12 specifically. So you can continue to ask questions, and the minister can continue to provide answers as she sees fit. S. Sullivan:Y eah.

I’m just referring to parliamentary procedure 12.7.3, “Scope of Debate, ” ministry questions about plans and proposed spending and relevancy from point 4. It does seem that these questions are relevant. I’ll try another approach. B.C. has about 59,000 interna- tional students. Are there any updated projections for the international student enrolment and the financial implica- tion that means to post-secondary institutions? Are there any plans to cover the published shortfalls? Recently the minister assumed that 60 percent of inter- national students have stayed in B.C.

Is this minister work- ing with the assumption that all those will return to school in the fall? What is the ministry doing to help to prepare post-secondary institutions for 40 percent of international students not showing up in the fall? [11:55 a.m.] Hon. M. Mark: To the member’s question. I want to speak very briefly to the remarks that were made earlier, just to clarify Vote 12 and the process. I have the authority to talk about our budget, to put it into context.

To speak about any of the public institutions’ budgets, with their own different revenue sources, is not within my responsibility, and that’s what I want to clari- fy. UBC, SFU, Okanagan College can all be getting differ- ent revenue sources from a variety of means. So that is the inappropriate part — talking about their budgets. As I’ve said before, I’m completely happy to update you, as the critic, as I get more information. But I think we’re all in the middle of COVID and waiting to see what the num- bers are going to look like. I want to remain optimistic.

I think measures are being taken by the provincial health officer and WorkSafeBC to get kids and students back on campus so that they’re safe. That work is being done by the public service, all in tan- dem, because we can’t forget that the pandemic hit and we moved a dial. We’re trying to move that dial back so that people feel safe. We want to also send the message that this is temporary until we get a vaccination. To the question of international students, this has come up quite a bit. There were 78,000 international students.

Anecdotally, we’re hearing from the public post-secondary institutions that they’ve retained 60 percent. As the mem- ber knows, due to the borders, we haven’t had the oppor- tunity to open up the doors. We’re seeking that counsel and direction from the federal government. We’re working with the ministry of immigration to do our level best to maintain, if not increase, the numbers of international students here in B.C. Some of the meas- ures that have been taken…. The federal government has agreed to provide visas to students to register at institu- tions and study remotely in their home countries.

So they are trying to work innovatively and through technology. Another measure the feds are taking is that they’ve issued specific guidelines for international students to come to British Columbia. These guidelines are fresh off the press from the federal government. They acknowledge across the country that we do want to welcome students back. We see the benefits of international students in Brit- ish Columbia and the diversification of what they bring to community. Hopefully…. There are many of our students that want to study abroad.

So we all have the same interest to mitigate the loss of opportunity for students. It’s not just international. It’s domestics who are all facing uncertainty on what’s to come in September. The Chair:Colleagues, thank you for all your questions and the answers this morning. S. Sullivan:Chair, can I clarify one issue? The Chair:If you take less than 43 seconds. S. Sullivan:Y es. I just want to make sure my MLAs are going to have valuable time this afternoon. We’re not really Thursday, July 30, 2020 Committee of Supply,

Section A 313

asking for speculation. We’re asking just for clarification on published data. There has been this huge issue called COVID that has intervened, and I just wanted to make sure that we get value time from the afternoon. This is all about forecasted expenditures and clarific- ation for any changes, any trends, any percentages. We don’t want to have the minister on record for speculation or anything. I just hope to set the framework there for the afternoon. The Chair:Thank you, Member. I’m sure we will stick to Vote 12 in the afternoon. Hon. M.

Mark: I move that the committee rise and report progress on the estimates of the Ministry of Advanced Education, Skills and Training. Motion approved. The Chair:Thank you, Members. We’ll see you after lunch. The committee adjourned at 12 noon. 314 Committee of Supply,

Section A Thursday, July 30, 2020

Hansard Services, Reporting and Publishing DIRECTOR D’ Arcy McPherson MANAGER OF REPORTING SERVICES Laurel Bernard MANAGER OF PUBLISHING SYSTEMS Dan Kerr TEAM LEADERS Mike Beninger, Kim Christie, Barb Horricks, Julie McClung, Karol Morris, Amy Reiswig, Glenn Wigmore EDITORS Erin Beattie, Janet Brazier, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Mary Beth Hall, Louis Henderson, Bill Hrick, Genevieve Kirk, Catherine Lang, Paula Lee, Quinn MacDonald, Anne Maclean, Claire Matthews, Jill Milkert, Linda Miller, Sarah Mitenko, Erik Pedersen, Janet Pink, Robyn Swanson, Antoinette Warren, Heather Warren, Kim Westad INDEXERS Shannon Ash, Robin Rohrmoser RESEARCHERS Joshua Hazelbower, Brooke Isherwood, David Mattison, Murray Sinclair TECHNICAL OPERATIONS Pamela Holmes, Daniel Powell, Patrick Stobbe Copyright © 2020 Legislative Assembly of British Columbia TheReport of Proceedings (Hansard)and webcasts of committee proceedings are available at www.leg.bc.ca.

For inquiries contact: Hansard Services 612 Government Street Victoria, BC V8V 1X4 Telephone: 250-387-3681 Email: hansardservices@leg.bc.ca Published by Hansard Services under the authority of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia.

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20200730am CommitteeA n17
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	20200730am CommitteeA n17
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	78d71c9cf1d64ddc110969ccfc5e4850b2f6f332

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).