Manitoba Hansard — 14 August 1986 (Sitting 69A, 33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-69a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 18 August, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phi ll ips: Prese nting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'd like to present the First Report of the Committee on � Muni cipal Affairs. ' Your Com mittee met on Thursday, August 14, 1986 at 8:00 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building and elected Mr. Ashton as Chairman. Your Commi ttee heard representations with respect to the following: Bill 17 -

An Act to amend The Taxicab Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les taxis. Mr. Norman Rosenbaum - Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties. Bill 31 -

An Act to amend The Social Allowances Act, The Muni cipal Act and The Mental Health Act in relation to liens; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'aide sociale, la

Loi sur les municipalites et la

Loi sur la sante mentale en matier e de privileges. Mrs. Ursuala Goeres - Solicitor, City of Winnipeg. Your Commit tee considered: Bill 11 -

An Act to amend The Planning Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire; Bill 15 -

An Act to amend The Hig hway Traffic Act; Loi modifiant le Code de la route; Bill 16 -

An Act to amend The Snowmobile Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les motoneiges; Bill 17 -

An Act to amend The Taxicab Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les taxis; Bill 18 - The Statute Law Am end ment (E lect ions) Act ( 19 86); Loi de 19 86 modifiant le droit statutaire en matiere d'elections; Bill 28 -

An Act to amend The Northern Affairs Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les Affaires du Nord; Bill 31 -

An Act to amend The Social Allowances Act; The Municipal Act and The Mental Health Act in relation to liens; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'aide sociale, la

Loi sur les munici palites et la

Loi sur la sante mentale en mati ere de privileges; Bill 33 -

An Act to amend The Muni cipal Act; Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur les municipalites. And agreed to report the same with certain amendments. Your Committee also considered: Bill 10 - The Mani toba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation Act;

Loi sur la Corporation manitobaine de gestion des dechets dangereaux; Bill 37 -

An Act to amend The City of Winnipeg Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg. And agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHT ON: I move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Lac du Bonnet that the report of the comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Madam Speaker, on Friday, in introducing The Statute Law Amendment Act 1986, I undertook to table in the House a copy for all members of the explanatory notes with an asterick against those sections which are more than routine or technical in nature. I'm taking this opportunity to table enough copies of the report for all members of the House. MADAM SPEAKER: No tices of Mo tion .. Introduction of Bills . . ORAL QUESTIONS MTS - IBM contract MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is for the Min ister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether or not MTS successfully bid a contract in 19 85 for supply of IBM computer equipment to the City of Winnipeg? HON. A. MACKLING: Sorry, Madam Speaker, I'm going to put my receiver on. Did the honourable member say MTX or MTS? Would he mind repeating the question? MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Min ister could indicate whether or not MTS successfully bid a cont ract for the supply of IBM computer equipment to the City of Winn ipeg last year. 3030

Monday, 18 August, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Min ister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: I don't have the information at hand. I will take it as notice, Madam Speaker. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Minis ter could indicate, when he brings back that information, whether or not that successful bid resulted in a profit to MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: I will include that supplementary question in the initial question I took as notice. MTS - SADL purchase of IBM computers MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Minis ter could further indicate whether or not he has information to the effect that SADL, the Saudi Arabian subsidia ry of MTX, is purchasing the same IBM computer equipment as was supplied to the City of Winnipeg at a cost of 25 percent greater than they could get it through other suppl iers. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I'll include that in the question I took as notice. MR. G.

FILMON: In bringing that further information, Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Minis ter could assure the House that we are not paying 25 percent higher than we need to for the purch ase of IBM comp uter equipment in Saudi Arabia, while undercutting Winnipeg retailers for business in selling the equipment here to customers, such as, the City of Winnipeg. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, I will take all of those questions as notice and deal with them in a subsequent sitting. MTS - investigating bodies responsible for various allegations re MTX MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if an investigation or an inquiry of this nature would be part of the RCMP investigation , or part of the management consulting investigation into the operations of MTX. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I'm sure that the honourable member will want to identify, through the meeting of the comm ittee on Thursday, those areas where it may be appropriate for the management audit firm to provide specific attention, or should there be matters that honourable members feel that the RCMP should be concerned about, that they will be identified and we certainly will look for a constructive analyis of issues at the comm ittee hearing. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further questions on the subject of MTX are to the Premier.

I wonder if he could indicate, given that he has continued to maintain that all of the matters that will be investigated with respect to MTX will be investigated or will be adequately dealt with through both the ACM P investigation and the management consulting audit that will take place, I wonder if he will indicate who will be responsible for investigating the respo nsibil ity for Mi nisters misinforming both the committee and the House on issues, such as, the flogging which apparently took place in Saudi Arabia, the return of equipment that was sent over to Saudi Arabia and was unable to be used to fulfill a contract, or the employment of Theresa Aysan?

Which of those two bodies will be doing the investigation on those matters? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the question presupposes deliberate misinforming on the part of Minis ters, and that supposition would first have to be est abli she d . Otherwise, the que stions that the honourable member has raised would be matters for comm ittee. MR. G. FILMON: I made no allegation of deliberate misinformation.

Madam Speaker, you and I and every person in this Ho use was present when the Minis ter stood up and vol untarily apolo gized for having I misin formed the members of the Legislature with respect to the return of the equipment from Saudi Arabia. We were all given evidence, by virture of an invoice, of the employment of Theresa Aysan . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: Yes, indeed, Madam Speaker, and I intend to get to it. MADAM SPEAKER: Question period is not a time for debate. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I am not debating it, I am attempting to assist the Premier in answering the question. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, the honourable member is charging that this Minis ter misinformed the House in respect to return of some equipment.

The honourable member will recall that I indicated to the House a concern that I had misinformed the media and I wanted to clarify fo r members of the House that the cancellation of the order was not as a result of the bank having changed ownership, but there had been a chang e in the operational philosophy. I never gave that information to the House; I gave the information to the media, which was incorrect, and I clarified that in the House. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a question. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Sp eaker, I didn't want to lengthen the question by reading from Hansard the information that had previously been given by a former Min ister of the Telephone System on the flogging, or 3031

Monday, 18 August, 1986 the statement that had been made by various people that, indeed, no women had been employed over in Saudi Arabia by the MTX Corporation; all that evidence is available. I won't quarrel with the Minister saying that it was the media that he misinformed, rather than the House. My question to the Premier, Madam Speaker MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The time is for questions, not for speeches. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I merely want to assist in making sure the Premier understands the question before he's able to answer it.

My qu estion to the Premier is: Who will be responsible for inv est igating th ose ins tances of misinformation by Min isters with respect to various issues connected to the MTX operation in Saudi Arabia that I have outlined for him. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, first, in connection with the issue, the equipment, I'm attempting to find � the exact

chapter and verse, but the Minister indicated ' in Committee that there had been a misunderstanding between his office and MTS in respect to that particular matter. I think that's an appropriate role for the Comm ittee. If the Commi ttee is of the view, as a result of submissions presented to the Commit tee, as a result of discussion within the Committee, that a Minister or a member of the MT S or MT X staff misled or misinformed anyone in this Cham ber, that is a matter for appropriate discussion in that Commit tee.

Madam Speaker, if such is established, then that would be the responsibility of myself to deal with, but let us, Madam Speaker, establish the facts before we prejudge the conclusions. There appears to me to have been a great deal of prejudging in respect to a number of matters th at are appr opriat ely dealt with by way of th e management audit, by way of the RCMP, by way of the Committee.

MADAM SPEAKER: May I also remind honourable members that I have a matter of priviledge under advisement that I am holding until the return of the member that raised it and I would hope that honourable members would not refer to that item while it's under advisement. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I'm not aware of the matter of priviledge that you're speaking of so perhaps you'll merely interject if I tread on that territory. MADAM SPEAKER: Right. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a question. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question for the Premier is who will be responsible for investigating the matter of the Min ister having been misinformed with respect to the nature of the kickback, or the origin of the kickback, that was admitted to by Mr. Provencher in Commi ttee last week? Who will be responsible for investigating how the Mi nister was misinformed and under what circumstances? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, first I think it would have to be established that there was misinforming; 3032 and secondly, there would be the necessity, if it relates to the overall area of kickbacks, that the RCMP deal with any of those matters pertaining to the kick backs. But I think it's very important, Madam Speaker, that we not prejudge, again, the information that's before us until the Committee has completed its hearings and received its testimony. I don't believe it is in the public interest for us to be prejudging or presuming the outcome of discussions at this stage, Madam Speaker. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I merely indicate that matter was stated here in the House, when the Minis ter responsible for th e Telephone System acknowledged that he had been told a few days prior to the Commit tee hearing about the one kick back that Mr. Provencher described to Committee, but he said at the time he had been given the impression that it was the related company, Al Bassan International, not the 50/50-owned comp any. That's the misin formation I'm speaking of and I'm not attempting to prejudge it in any way, Madam Speaker. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Premier is who will be responsible for investigating the allegation of discriminatory hiring practices by MTX and its operations in Saudi Arabia? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, first, when I talk about prejudging, it's my understanding that in fact the officials of MTS still stand by the statement that the Minister did originally give in this Chamb er. So again, this goes to the question of hasty or reckless prejudging until we have all of the facts, all of the information before us.

Then, we can deal with our evaluation in a fair manner, rather than attempting to prejudge for our own particular purposes. The last part of the question that the Leader of the Opposition raised was in respect to . HON. R. PENNER: Discrimination. MR. G. FILMON: Discrimination. Madam Sp eaker, that also is a matter that I dealt with in this House some two weeks ago.

I must say, I had a very posit ive meeting with the B'nai B'rith, along with the Attorne y-General on Friday that applauded the steps of this government and the commitment by this government to introduce legisla tion in the next Session of the Legislature. App arently, the B'nai B'rith had taken that position very clearly at the time of that announcement by this government, and they were very pleased and very laudatory of this government's initiatives in that respect. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could finish off by indicating who will be investigating the allegations of discriminatory hiring practices by MTX in Saudi Arabia. Will it be the RCMP, or will it be the management consultants? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I've dealt with that and indicated, if there are specific areas, any group that feels that one of its members has indeed been victim ized by way of discrimination, there are appropr iate measures through the laws of the Province of Manitoba under which that can be undertaken. So that can be dealt with in an adequate way.

Monday, 18 August, 1986 There is also plenty of opportunity for honourable members to raise those issues in committee. They can, as well, be dealt with through the management audit if, in fact, there are practices that are discriminatory, which would be in contradiction to the policy that was set down by this New Democratic Party Government in 19 82 when the Manitoba Telephone System was advised, very precisely, very clearly that we would not permit discriminatory practices on the part of the Manitoba Telephone System or MTX. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I'm disappointed that the Premier has chosen not to have it investigated; he wants to wait for somebody to apply as sacrificial lamb. I think that's shocking and shameful. But, Madam Speaker, my further question to the Premier is: Who will be investigating - will it be the RCMP or the management consultants - the allegation of employees being placed at risk by being forced to work at times and under circumstances that contravene Saudi religious laws? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, MTX follows the laws of Saudi Arabia.

Apparent ly, even in that particular respect, there was discussion in committee, and the matters aren't as clear as honourable members would like to establish them to be. There is a clear set of directions insofar as ensuring that MTX follow the laws in respect to any countries in which they carry out operations. Those are the laws of the land that they're expected to follow and to pursue, Madam Speaker. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I guess the Premier is conveniently forgetting that some were flogged . MADAM SPEAKER: Question? MR. G.

FILMON: . . . and some were charged by the Saudi religious police, so obviously that's not part of his memo ry. Madam Speaker, my further question to the Premier is: Who will be re sponsi bl e for invest igating the allegation of false information having been placed on applications for Saudi Arabia visas? HON. H. PAWLEY: The Royal Canadian Mou nted Police, Madam Speaker. MTS - management audit MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to the Premier is: Who will be investigating the accuracy and the comp leteness of the information given to the Min ister and the Cabinet prior to the decision to set up MTX? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Spea ker, first, we are prejudging.

I've indicated that there is a Management Audit Review that will examine the complete and total operations of MTX, and will also establish whether or not there was any improper reporting to the board of the Manitoba Telephone System and, at the same time, deal with past practices, whether they were improper or not, in relationship to the time that the allegations that are before us arose. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Premier can indicate what has been under investigation by a management audit that has been ongoing at MTS during the past year by a firm which I understand is called Wofax, a very extensive investigation at fairly extensive cost. I wonder if the Premier could indicate what their responsibilities have been. HON. H. PAWLEY: That is an appropriate question for committee, Madam Speaker. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the Premier has indicated today there is not going to be a vehicle, either through the RCMP or the management audit, to investigate matters such as the misinforma tion on the flogging, on th e return of equipment from Saudi Arabia, the employment of Theresa Aysan . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Question? MR. G.

FILMON: Given the fact that he has indicated there won't be a vehicle for the investigation of alleged discriminatory hiring practices; given, Madam Speaker, that there won't be an appropriate vehicle for the allegations of operations contrary to Saudi religious laws ... MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: Indeed, Madam Sp eaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Would he please ask it. MR. G. FILMON: A new qu estion, and this is a

preamble. Given, Madam Speaker ... MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that several times during question period he has opened his question with very extensive comments, based on an answer that he's received, before he has got to the question. The list that the member just reiterated is a list that he's already mentioned twice ' in question period. Could you ask your question, please? MTS - judicial inquiry re MTX MR. G. FILMON: Yes.

Given, Madam Speaker, that various employees have stated publicly their concern for their jobs and their protection and security, should they be forced to answer questions without being placed under oath, without being placed under a complete public inquiry, will the Premier not now ask for the complete public inquiry so that we can open up all of these areas and insure that no stone is left unturned, that no area of examination that should be covered is ign ored by either the RCMP investigation or the management audit? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, there will, indeed, be no stone left unturned by this government in ensuring that this matter is dealt with efficiently and satisfactorily and expeditiously, and not as the result of a lengthy 3033

Monday, 18 August, 1986 inquiry that honourable members would like that could go on for 12 months or 18 months. The RCMP, Madam Speaker, will deal with this matter in the way that it is anticipated the RCMP would. The honourable member is referring to a particular employee who has made a comment to that effect, Madam Speaker. That particular employee is named in the Ferguson affidavit and the matters relating to that particular employee deal with criminal matters; that employee is legally obliged to cooper ate with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Sp eaker, what information, what allegations, other than those of a criminal nature, would it take to convince the Premier of the need for a full public inquiry with powers to subpoena witnesses under oath? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I'm well satisfied that all the areas of substantive concern will be dealt with either by way of the RCM P investigation, by way of the Management Review Audit th at will be undertaken, that will be full scale and comprehensive in its nature, and by initiative of this government.

We will do that which is necessary to ensure, without prejudging, as the Leader of the Opposition would do, that all defects, weaknesses in legalities will be dealt with and will be dealt with according to the law, Madam Speaker. MTS - attendance of MTX officials at committee hearings MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, last week Legal Counsel for the Manitoba Telephone System requested that employees who had been in Saudi Arabia provide him with a report by Friday providing information which would either confirm or refute the allegations in the Ian Ferguson affidavit.

Those employees subsequent ly, a.s I understand it, asked that this request be made in writing through the Minis ter, but no such request was received. Was the Legal Counsel acting on the Minister's behalf when he asked for that information to all employees who had been employed in Saudi Arabia, employees of the Telephone System? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, maybe we should have the Attorney-General give us a 30-minute lecture on criminal law for the.benefit of honourable members across the way, because the particular employees who the honourable member is making reference to are employees who are named in Ferguson affidavit that may or may not have information in respect to alleged criminal conduct. Madam Speaker, those employees ought to give their information fully and comprehensively to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I will expect them to cooperate fully with the RCMP. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premier then indicating that the MTS Legal Counsel was acting on behalf of the RCMP when he made that request for information? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi ni ster responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, immediately the affidavit had been tabled in the committee on the Tuesd ay, I sought out the Attorney- General 's Department and instructed the RCMP be asked to look into the matter, the allegations contained in that affidavit.

I also asked a Legal Counsel at the MTS at the very least to ask each of the employees named in the affidavit to respond to the concerns that were obviously there about their involvement. Sub sequent to that, when one of the employees wrote to me and asked me whether I would direct that he provide that information, I advised him to commun icate fully with the RCM Police. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, given that the Premier has indicated that many of the matters which I've raised in question period ought to be discussed at committee on Thursday, will he now assure us that Mike Aysan, Don Plunkett and Maurice Provencher will be at that committee hearing to respond to questions? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the individuals in question will be asked to appear. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, will the Premier be directing his majority on that committee to agree to having those people examined under oath at that committee? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I thought I advised the Leader of the Opposition Thursday and Friday, and I guess I must repeat the same again today, that the legislative committee will deal with a particular function and purpose. If the Leader of the Opposition wants to investigate, on a parallel basis, the functions and responsibilities of the RC MP in regard to allegations that are raised, then that would be improp er, Madam Sp eaker, to be dealt with at the committee. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I will give absolute assurance that I do not want to parallel the RCM P investigation.

I would want the opportunity merely to ask questions dealing with misinformation, not of a criminal nature . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: . . . that has been provided in the past. Will he assure that his majority on the committee will support the opportunity to have those people examined under oath before committee? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, as I again indicated last Thursday and Friday, the committee will establish its rules.

Madam Speaker, if the Honourable Leader of the Opposition wants to raise matters in which he alleges spe cific mis leading, then let the Leader of the Opposition raise th ose particular concerns at comm ittee. They will be on the record in comm ittee and he can ask those questions in committee. Group home panelling and placement personnel MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Kildonan. 3034

Monday, 18 August, 1986 MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Min ister of Community Services regarding the establishment of Amba Homes. On August 5, the Hono ur able Leader of the Opposition suggested that an employee, Nerina Robson, employed by the Association for Community Living, was involved in the panelling which approves the assignment to group homes and, in fact, is responsible for implementing the Welcome Home Program for the Association for Community Living. Does this person, in fact, have any responsibility for group homes and placement?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Mi nis ter of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Sp eaker, the individual so named is an employee of ACL and she has been involved in 24-hour planning of individuals. She has not been involved in any decision-making role on the departmental side in terms of panelling and placement. MR. M. DOLIN: Madam Speaker, to the same Minis ter a supplementary. In fact, did this Nerina Robson have any responsibility whatsoever for the establishment of Amba Homes? HON. M.

SMITH: No, Madam Sp eaker, she was operating as an employee, as I said, of the Association of Community Living, an advocacy group for the well being of the mentally disabled citizens of Manitoba. I think the allegation, both during Estimate and in this House during question period, that she was in any conflict of interest, or had a direct decision-making role, was incorr ect and I understand that the ACL has sent an explanatory letter to the Opposition outlining the precise role and responsibility of the individual. MR. M.

DOLIN: Madam Speaker, given that the Leader of the Opposition's accusations were again incorrect, has the Min ister received any correspondence from the Association of Communit y Living regarding these incorr ect allegations? Manitoba Development Centre, Portage HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I have, as I said, received a copy of a statement from the ACL, and I understand that it was also sent to the Opposition to clarify the situation. While I'm on my feet, Madam Speaker, I'd like to answer a question I took on August 6 about the number of people discharged from the Manitoba Developmental Centre in June and July.

Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to inform members that the population is now under 700 - it's 699 - the first time that we've ever been below the 700 barrier . In June, 7 were discharged; in July, 8, and con crete plans are in place to achi eve the population reduction targets in the time allotted. Western Equine Encephalitis MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Health. Three years ago, one Manitoban died and 17 other Manitobans contracted Western Equine Encephalitis, some cases resulting in permanent brain damage.

Can the Minis ter advise this House whether there are any mosquitos carrying the virus in other parts of Manitoba, in view of the fact that the virus is being carried by mosquitos within the City of Winnipeg? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, since 19 75 or so, or even before that, there have been three deaths here associated with the encephalitis. I say "associated" because there are no proofs that they've died solely caused by the encephalitis. For instance, the last one that died was a young lady who also had diabetes very badly.

During that time, every year approximately there are 4,000 deaths due to the disease of circulation, including heart disease - that's one year, not for 20 years or 30 years - 2,000 deaths due to cancer, 400 dead due to 1 accidents, 10 0 due to diabetes, 350 to others caused by communicable disease. We have stated that there is no way that you can guarantee that you'll get rid of all the mosquitos. We are saying that it is lulling the people into a false sense of security if you think that you're going to tell them that there's no danger but, all of a sudden, there's danger. There is a danger at all times.

We have traps - and you can ask my friend, there are traps to see the type that we have. We're on the 15 th of August, we've never had a count like this so late that it's been dangerous at all times. I've answered this question three times, but I guess that Councillor Mitchelson needs a little help for his election so we'll answer it again. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: I'd like to ask the Minister of Health whether he is prepared to conduct aerial spraying to protect the health and safety of all Manitobans from this dreaded disease? HON. L. DE SJARDINS: I'd appreciate it, Madam Speaker ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

HON. L. DESJARDINS: . . . if my honourable friends who are asking these questions would pay attention to the answer. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. That question is not within the Min ister of Health's jurisdiction. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur on a point of order. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, the matters of health of the people of the Province of Manitoba, I would think, would fall within the purview of the Minister of Health. 3035

Monday, 18 August, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member was asking a qu estion within the jur isd iction of the Honourable Minister of the Environment. The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Might I ask the Min ister of Environment then whether he is prepared to conduct aerial spraying to protect the health and safety of all Manitobans from this dreaded disease. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My department doe sn't do the spraying. My department certainly . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. G. LECUYER: Madam Speaker, I'm prepared to answer, if the members of the Opposition are interested in the answers. My department certainly would be consulted, Madam Speaker. before such measures were to be undertaken. The Minister of Health a while ago stated some figures which indicate, for instance, the very low incidence of deaths related to encephalitis in Manitoba.

In fact, the Min ister should have stated - and that's what he meant to state - that, since 19 60 in Manitoba, there have been thr ee deaths associated with Western Equine Encephalitis, not since '75, but since 19 60, and only one of those was clearly established as being caused by Western Equine Encephalitis. The ratio of mortality, besides that, Madam Speaker, per the number of cases established in human beings of having contacted Western Equine Encephalitis is extremely low. In the case, for in stance, Madam Speaker, of adults, it's one in 1, 15 0.

Madam Speaker, the Department of Environment has been monitoring the incidence of culex tarsalis mosquitos, the carrier of the virus, and it's been established that, indeed, the proportion of culex tarsalis to total mosquitos in the first half of August had gone up, and it has since been going down. We expect that is normal. Rarely is the high incidence of culex tarsalis present after July in Manitoba. With cool evenings presently upon us, we expect that number to further go down.

But the advice provided by the City of Winnipeg entomologist is the same that the Min ister of Health has frequently provided, and is good advice. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: I have a new question for the Premier, Madam Speaker. The fact is, Madam Speaker, that people have died from encephalitis in Manitoba, and people do suffer irreparable brain damage as a result of contracting Western Equine Encephalitis in this province. I might suggest that people who die, Madam Speaker, as a result are lucker than those who suffer irreparable brain damage.

My question to the Premier is: Since the Minister of Health will take no action, and the Min ister of Environment will take no action, to protect the health and safety of the citizens of Manitoba, will the Premier not look into asking them to resign and appointing Mini sters th at have the health and safety of all Manitobans as a first priority? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I think regrettably the Member for River East is learning to prejudge and to arrive at wild conclusions like her leader.

Madam Speaker, this Min ister of Health, this Min ister of Environment need no defending. Their attitudes, their positions are well-known. The people of the Province of Manitoba gave both Min isters a full round of endorsation on March 18. Bridge replacement MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Muni cipal Affairs. There has been a problem replacing a bridge which involved two municipalities and an LGD.

Could the Min ister use his go od offices to encoura ge the replacement of that bridge, because we're into the harvest season now and it's going to inconvenience very many farmers? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As has been indicated, the problem is between three municipalities. I think they're very responsible bodies, and I would hope that they can work out a resolution between the three of them. As a matter of fact, two have already agreed to their fair share of the costs.

I understand a meeting is coming up within the next week or so, and I will ensure that Muni cipal Affairs staff are there to assist if they are able to do so. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, Madam Sp eaker, I have a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Min ister. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT HON. J. WASYLYC IA- LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am sure all members of this House will want to join me in recognizing the tremendous success of Folklorama '86. Madam Speaker, the Festival in its 17 th year ended last night with passport sales up over 10 percent from 3036

Monday, 18 August, 1986 last year, representing an approximate attendance of 800,000 person visits. Folklorama, as we all know, is one of the largest ethno-cultural events in North America with 39 different pavilions featuring great food, informative displays and impressiv e enter tainment. I, personally , had the privilege, Madam Speaker, of visiting 35 pavilions and I know that the Member for River Heights did even better and managed to take in all 39 pavilions - quite a feat. Folklorama is a celebration of our cultural diversity, it promo tes tolerance, understanding and appreciation.

It is also a significant tourist attraction with increasing numbers of visitors coming from other parts of Canada, the United States and abroad. This year's Folklorama did this and more. It brought together people to share their traditions in a spirit of harmony, and therefore, was a tribute to 19 86, the International Year of Peace. I am sure all members of the House join me in thanking those who made this year's Festival of Nations such a success.

The staff and executive members of the Folk Arts Council and, most important of all, the over 17 ,000 volunteers, the performing artists, the Mayors, the Queens, the Youth Amb assadors, the cooks, the waiters, the guides, the builders, and so on. It is because of their dedication and hard work that Folklorama has been, and will continue to be, such a success.

Madam Speaker, in a tribute to this fine event, and to display to the visitors of the Legislative Building, a symbol of the heritage of our Chinese citizens, two lions from China, each weighing 4, 000 lbs. will temporarily guard the east and west entrances to the Pool of the Black Star. I would encourage all members to view the lions before they are moved to their final destination in the Chi nese communit y. Madam Speaker, Folklorama is a multi-cult ural celebrat ion. We congr atulate those who made it possible, and we look forward to its continued success for years to come.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I am delighted to join with the Mini ster of Culture, Heritage and Recreation in this non-political statement, and I am sure that the Member for River Heights will want to join in expressing her goodwill and enjoyment of the 39 pavi lions, and the opportunity to select Mi ss Folklorama, which she had during the course of this past week. Indeed, many members on our side of the House visited a considerable number of pavilions and I had the opportunity to get to many, as time permitted, during the course of the week.

I think one of the things, in addition to Folklorama being an opportunity for all of us to enjoy in an non-partisan basis, the goodwill and the heritage and culture that goes into making Manitoba the great province that it is, is the fact that it is done almost entir ely without government supp or t and assistance, and totally on the basis of the hard work, energy and commitment of the 17 ,000 volunteers who work throughout the pavilions in Winnipeg during this one great week in August.

Indeed, Madam Speaker, the Folk Arts Council is to be com pli mented for their continuing efforts in organizing and ensuring that Folklorama becomes better and better every year, and it has become a festival of major international importance to the extent that, it is my understanding, 88 busloads of people from outside the City of Winnipeg, many of them from the United States and surrounding environments, came to Winnipeg in this one great week, and enjoyed our hospitality, enjoyed the opportunity to partake in our culture and the food, the entertainment and all of the things that make this such a great attraction.

I thank the Min ister for the opportunity to be able to participate in this non-political statement. COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I have changes in two committees: Economic Development Commit tee, the Member for Kildonan substituting for the Member for Radisson. In dustrial Relations Com mittee, the Member for Seven Oaks substituting for the Member for St. James. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Com mittee changes, Madam Speaker. Industrial Relations Comm ittee, Kovnats for Brown; and Birt for Orchard.

PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Comm ittee on Statutory Regulations and Orders. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Do we have leave to revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Commi ttee on Statutory Regulations and Orders. MR. CLERK, W.

Remnant: Your Comm ittee met on Thursday, August 14, 19 86 at 10 :90 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider Bills referred. Your Commit tee heard representations on certain Bills as follows: Bill 24 -

An Act to amend The Teachers' Pensions Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la pension de retraite des enseignants. Mr. Cordell Barker - Manitoba Teachers' Socie ty. Bill 27 -

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act; Loi modi fiant la

Loi sur la reglementation des alcools. Dr. Fletcher Baragar - Manitoba Med ical Association. 3037

Monday, 18 August, 1986 Bill 48 -

An Act to amend The Manitoba Mun icipal Secret ary-Treasurers' Association Act; Loi modifiant la Loi intitul ee "The Ma ni toba Mu ni cipal Secretary-Treasurers' Association Act." Mr. Robert Adkins - Solicitor for The Manitoba Municipal Secretary-Treasurers' Association. Bill 52 - The Manitoba Medical Association Fees Act;

Loi sur les droits de I' Association medicale du Manitoba. Dr. J.B. Sutherland - Manitoba Medical Association Mr. Ben Hanuschak - Progressive Party of Manitoba Dr. Fletcher Baragar - Mani tob a Medi cal Association. Your Comm ittee has considered: Bill 25 -

An Act to amend The Law Society Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe du Barreau; Bill 27 -

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act; Loi mo difiant la

Loi sur la reglementation des alcools; Bill 34 - The Constitutional Questions Act;

Loi sur les questions constitutionelles; Bill 36 - The Real Property Act and Various Othe r Acts Am endm ent Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les biens reels et diverses autres lois; Bill 44 - The Judgment Interest and Discount Act;

Loi sur les taux d'i nterat et d'actualisation des sommes allouees par jugement; And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. Your Comm ittee has also considered: Bill 9 -

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles publiq ues; Bill 23 - The Ch arter Compl ianc e Statute Amendment Act, 19 86; Loi de 1986 mod ifiant diverses dispositions legislatives afin d'assurer de respect de la Charte; Bill 24 -

An Act to amend The Teachers' Pensions Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la pension de retraite des enseignants; Bill 26 -

An Act to amend The Public Trustee Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le curateur public; Bill 30 - The Justice for Victims of Crime Act;

Loi sur les droits des victimes d'actes criminels; Bill 42 -

An Act to amend The Insu rance Act and The Que en's Bench Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les assurances et la

Loi sur la Cour du Banc de la Reine; Bill 46 -

An Act respecting The Institute of Certified Management Consultants of Manitoba;

Loi sur l'lnstitut manitobain des cons eil lers en admini strat ion agrees; Bill 47 -

An Act to amend

An Act to provide for the establishment and maintenance of a Boys' and Girls' Band in the Town of Dauphin; loi modifiant la Loi intitulee 3038 "An Act to provide for the establishment and maintenance of a Boys' and Girls' Band in the Town of Dauphin." Bill 48 -

An Act to amend The Manitob a Mu nicipal Secreta ry-Treasurers' Association Act; Loi modifiant la Loi intitule e "The Manitoba Mu nic ipal Secretary-Treasurers' Association Act"; Bill 49 -

An Act to incorporate The Portage District General Hospital Foundation; Loi constituant en corporation la Fondation de I' H6pital general du district Portage; And has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your Commit tee recommends THAT the fees paid with respect to the following Private Bill be refunded, less the cost of printing: Bill 49 -

An Act to in corporate The Portage District General Hospital Foundation; Loi constituant en corporat ion la Fond ation de l'H6pital general du district Portage. All of which is respectfully submitted. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan that the report of the Commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MOTION FOR REFUND OF PRIVATE BILL FEE MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Memb er for Elmwood. MR. J.

MALOWAY: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan, that the fees paid with respect to the following Private Bill be refunded, less the cost of printing: Bill 49 -

An Act to incorporate The Portage District General Hospital Foundation; Loi constituant en corporat ion la Fon dation de l'H6pital general du district Portage. MOTION presented and carried. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker. Before moving a number of motions this afternoon, I might outline the orders for today and the House Business which is going

Monday, 18 August, 1986 to take place tomo rrow. This is to confirm that the Standing Commi ttee on Economic Development, and the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations will be meeting tomo rrow at 10:00 a.m. to consider matters referred to them. Also to confirm that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will be meeting on Thursday morning at 10 :00 a.m. to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System.

Also, today, Madam Speaker, it is my intention to move the motion standing in my name regarding the Rules Comm ittee; then to move us into Committee of the Whole to consider Bill No. 53, in the Report of the Rules Comm ittee; following that to move us into Committee of Supply under the normal motion to consider the Estimates, Natural Resources being considered in the House, and Housing being considered in the Commit tee Room this aft ernoon; and th e Attorney-General, I understand, to be considered in the Com mittee Room this evening.

My un derst anding, as well, is that th ere is an inclination to forego Private Members' Hour and to continue on with the review of the Estimates until 5:30 p.m. I would then move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Honourable Member for Thompson that the Report of the Standing Committee . . . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: I would then move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Member for Thompson, that the Report of the Standing Commit tee on the Rules of the House, received by the Assembly on August 14, 1986, be referred to the Commi ttee of the Whole House for consideration.

MOTION presented and carried. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Labour, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee of the Whole to consider the Report of the Standing Commit tee on the Rules of the Ho use received by the Assembly on August 14, 1986; and Bill No. 53. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Commit tee of the Whole to consider the Report of the Standing Committee on the Rules of the House; and Bill No. 53 with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair.

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE RULES OF THE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMA N, C. Santos: Comm ittee please come to order in order to consider the proposal for changes in Rules presented to the House and afterwards to consider Bill No. 53. The Report of the Rules Comm ittee is found on Page 274 of the Votes and Proceedings No. 67, dated Thursday, Augus t 14, 19 86, Page 274. If any member does not have a copy of the Votes and Proceedings of the House, the Chair has some copies available. We shall consider this report item-by-item. Item No. on Page 27 4. There is a request that we consider this page-by-page?

Is it the will of the committee to consider the report page by page? It's so agreed; so ordered. Page 27 4 - the Honourable House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: On Page 274, it indicates that the agreed-to changes would take place next Session, except the ones that would come into force on the day following the date of concurrence of this report, would be No. 3 and 6. In actuality, I believe that should read 3 through 6, because Items 4, 5 and 6 are dealing with Item 3 and the ringing of the bells in the deferral. So if we can have that amendment noted. MR. CHAIRMAN: So it will be amended as Items 3 through 6.

Is that agreed? So ordered. Page 274, as amended- pass. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. J. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, before you pass Page 275, there was a matter that I wanted to refer to again, and I did speak on it during the committee stage although members didn't seem inclined to make any changes at that time.

I refer specifically to 3(6) and, for the benefit of members, it reads: "When a division is deferred pursuant to sub-rule (4), the House shall continue with the business before it, pursuant to sub-rule 19(2)." What we're talking about here is if there is a ringing of the bells which will go beyond the time set out for it, that there can be a deferral by the Speaker after consultation with the two House Leaders for a time presently up to 24 hours and, according to this change, up to 72 hours, I understand.

This particular rule before us says that although there has been that deferral and the bells are presumably ringing at some level of volume or other, that the House can continue with what it is doing. My concern with this is not that it solves the particular problem; and surely, everything we do, we have to look at it not as to whether it solves the immediacy of the problem or not but as to what the consequences will be next week, next year, next month or whenever it happens to be.

I am quite concerned that adopting this particular rule, although it might do what the members want it to do at this time, it will cause very considerable problems in the future. I only ask members to imagine for a moment what the division might be on. Frequently, the division that is before the House has to do with something that the House is considering at that particular time which would change if the vote were to carry. I can imagine that there would be such things as the adjournment which immediately comes to mind.

The matter of a six-month hoist, for example; do you in fact give it a hoist or do you continue? Now the vote might well be on that, and if we allow this particular change to say yes, we can continue with what we are doing, then surely you pre empt the vote that is coming up for the House to make the decision upon. It won't necessarily happen next week, won't necessarily happen in this Session, but as long as this particular rule is there, as sure as eggs is eggs, it will occur at some time in the future and it will cause this House problems. 3039

Monday, 18 August, 1986 It refers clearly to a division happening, and a division is the calling in of members to vote. We have another rule in the book that says there is no further debate when a division is ordered, and I'm at a loss to see how you can stop the debate on the motion to have a vote and, at the same time, continue the debate for a future time. I would very strongly urge that either this be deleted or it be amended in some way so as to avoid that problem which is, sure as anything, going to happen at some time in the future. HON. J.

COWAN: In regard to my earlier amendment that we amend Page 274 to show "Items 3 through 6," upon further reading of it, it's clear to me that "Items 3 and 6" is the appropriate way to phrase it and I would draw the suggestion of an amendment, with leave, and we would leave it as it stands. MR. CHAIRMA N: Is there leave to withdraw the amendment? So ordered. We will approve Page No. 274 as is. Pages 275 to 279, inclusive, were each read and passed; the Report as a whole, in totality-pass. BILL NO. 53 - THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ACT MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall we consider this bill page-by page or otherwise? Page-by-page.

Pages 1 to 6, inclusive, were each read and passed;

Preamble- pass; Title- pass; Bill as a whole- pass. Bill No. 53 is passed. Bill be reported. Comm ittee rise. Please call in the Speaker. IN SESSION MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, your committee has considered Bill No. 53 and reports the same without amendments; and considered the Rules Comm ittee as reported. I move, seconded by the Member for Thompson, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MADAM SPEA KER : The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: I move, seconded by the Mini ster of Health, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MA TTER OF GRIEVANCE MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. 3040 MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of grievance.

Madam Speaker, I rise because it is the opportunity in which a member has the opportunity to put forward their concerns, the concerns dealing with government operations, dealing with general public matters, and I cannot sit any longer, Madam Speaker, and see what is taking place un der th is govern ment and the inv olvement that th ey have partici pated in; the establishment of a Crown corporation which, today, the information that we have received up to this date is somewhat damaging, devastating and incriminating 83 far as the government is concerned. - (Interjection) - That's right, Madam Speaker.

My colleague from Min nedosa said they have lost the confidence of the people and that is absolutely true. Just returning from my riding over the weekend, everyone in the country, and in the city, Madam Speaker, is talking about the way and the manner in which this government is handling the affairs of the province and, particularly, the Manitoba Telephone System and the MTX operations. I want to first of all compliment my colleague, the Member for Pembina, who has been tracking this item, and my leader, for the last few weeks.

They have worked diligently, Madam Speaker, to bring the truth to the people of Manitoba. My leader, who has been the critic of the Premier and has been bringing this to a head, I think has been doing a very responsible job. The Member for Pembina has been tracking this thing for well over three years and has been compiling information which now is being made public and which has to be, Madam Speaker, aired publicl y. Let's just look at where we're at today.

I'm going to make some comments that are going to make some members upset because the question has to be put to the Premier: Who in his Cabinet or who in his caucus is he covering up for? The question is: Who is he covering up for? He signed an Order-in-Council, Madam Sp eaker, in January of 19 82; and one has to ask the question: Who is he covering up for? The second question, Madam Speaker: for what reason is the Premier covering up for that individual? What reason, and who is the Premier covering up for?

If not, Madam Spea ker, the third question: If he is not covering up for a member or tor some reason, or for a particular reason, for a member, why does he not call a public inquiry into the affairs of the Manitoba Telephone System and MTX? The question has to be: Why is he not giving the public the full, and I say the full opportunit y, to look at what has been going on in the affairs of MTX and MTS? Madam Speaker, I want to, as well, in my grievance today, compliment the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as the Premier likes to refer to it in question period.

Madam Speaker, it takes a little more time to say Royal Canadian Mounted Police than it does RCM P, but he likes to use a lot of time in question period, because he's got a lot of heat on him. Madam Speaker, he cannot take the kind of heat that has been applied to him. Madam Speaker, let's just look at the history of the Manitoba Telephone System and the mandate that the Manitoba Telephone System has, to provide telephone service and commu nication service throughout Manitoba, and yes, to be the link for the Trans-Canada

Monday, 18 August, 1986 transmission lines to connect with the Bell System in Ontario and the Sask-Tel in Saskatchewan and the Alberta Telephones, B.C. Tel. and all the ones across Canada, to play an intricate part. That's really the mandate, to improve the immediate commun ications by telephone and by the modern technol ogy. But, Madam Speaker, for the life of me, I cannot find the answer as to why we're in Saudi Arabia with some socialist experience with a Crown corporation where they have absolutely no business, Madam Speaker, to be.

Madam Speaker, my Leader the other day made reference to the fact that the Premier was the father of MTX, yes, and the Deputy Premier is the mother of MTX. What a proud pair of parents they should be today with that kind of a corporation under them. The question is, Madam Sp eaker, why do we need MTX? Why do we need ManOil? Why do we need all the Crown corporations that are bleeding the taxpayers of this province at the same time they are rationing health services in Brandon General Hospital for the people of the Westman region? The Mini ster of Health stands up and he has great tears rolling down his cheeks.

He says: tell me where we can get the money? Well, we're telling him where they could have gotten the money, Madam Speaker, from their Crown corps. that are running around with the taxpayers' money, using their money loosely, Madam Speaker. Yes, Madam Sp eaker, one has to put this down as the "Telegate" of the Manitoba Legislature. It's the telephone boondoggle of this century. Look at Mani toba Telephone Sys tem, Madam Speaker. In Manitoba, the Telephone System has been what, in operation for operation for 70 years? A MEMBER: 70 years. MR. J. DOWNEY: 70 years.

The Telephone System has been in operation for 70 years. What was their profit this year? You know, after being in business for 70 years, the plant's paid for; everything should be running smoothly if you're looking after the telephones in Manitoba. You've got a captive market. You're the only ones providing telephone service so, if you need more money, you go to the Utilities Board and you make your case. You need the money to break even or make a profit. But, Madam Speaker, they can't even do that. We lost half a million dollars this year.

As I said earlier in the debate, Madam Speaker, on the energy bill - and I'll talk a little bit about it in my grievance as well - we dealt with the question of why not invest in oil in Saudi Arabia where you may make some mo ney, and telephone s in Mani toba? I had agreement from many of the members opposite. They were shaking their head in the affirmative. Madam Sp eaker, we're in a position in Manitoba now where we have many questions and, again today in question period, our leader laid them out before this Assembly and the people of Manitoba; questions, Madam Speaker, that have to be answered.

The public are not going to back off. The Opposition are not going to back off. The people in Manitoba Telephone System who have a career, who have a career in Manitoba telephone service work do not want to back off. They want the whole issue dealing with MTX and questionable 3041 activities dealing with their past dealt with, Madam Speaker. Yes, and the criminal nature, the RC MP are the ones who should be charged with doing it. The Member for St. Vital - and I want to compliment him - the other day stood in his place and I would say broke party rank in saying, yes, we need a public inquiry.

What was he basing his main argument on, Madam Speaker? He was basing his main argument on the truth to Committee and the Legislature. We are the highest court in the province. We make the laws, Madam Speaker. We are the body that, if we don't have truth told to us as legislators, could make decisions, Madam Speaker, could make decisions based on a very unsolid and a very dangerous foundation. We cannot, as legislators and members of Commi ttee, have anything told to us but the truth, the absolute truth, Madam Speaker, and that hasn't happened.

The Pr emier keeps coming back saying: th e Commi ttee will deal with that matter, the Comm ittee of the Legislature. Yet, Madam Speaker, he will not say that tho se people have to come forward and swear to the truth and give their testimony under oath. Madam Speaker, why does the Premier not support truth? That's really what we're down to. The Premier of the Province of Manitoba, the New Democratic Premier, does not sup port the establishm ent and the basing of the operations of the Legislative Assembly on truth for this assurance that we are being told the truth.

If he does believe that this operation should go on truth, the people should be governed on truth, Madam Speaker, then let him call a full public inqu iry so that people will come forward under oath and make sure that the truth is told. The Member for St. Vital pleaded with - didn't plead in a harsh way, but he pleaded with the members of this Assembly to pay attention to his argument, and he had a good argument, Madam Speaker. One would be hard pressed not to support him. I challenge the other backbenchers.

Let's face it, Madam Speaker, members of the government, both in Cabinet and backbenchers, are now under question. They are now under question in the public mind because the Premier, obviously, and the Mini ster of Telephones are covering up for one of them, or why would they not proceed to have a full public inquiry? Madam Speaker, one can only ask the question: Which one of the members, is it the Member for Dauphin who got himself entangled in this mess of MTX, in the formation of it and the discriminating guidelines which he laid out for the MTX?

Madam Speaker, with all respect, Is it the current board member who was not doing his homework properly for MTS? Was it the former Min ister, the Member for Brandon East? You know, his record dealing with Crown corps., has certainly got a lot of shadows over it. Madam Speaker, he was involved very much as the Min ister responsible when the whole A.E. McKenzie issue hit the fan, Madam Speaker. His record is not very clear on that one, Madam Speaker. His record is not very clear on the whole operation of A.E. McKenzie.

MADAM SPEAKER: I'd like to remind the honourable member about Beauchesne's Citation 319 and caution him.

Section 3 says that a member will not be permitted "to impute to any Member or Members unworthy motives for their action in a particular case."

Monday, 18 August, 1986 MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Madam Speaker, with all respect to that rule, I have not made any direct accusat ions. However, the public are saying, who in the Premier of Manitoba's Cabinet, in the NOP Government or the backbench or board members is he covering up for and what is he covering up? What is he covering up, Madam Speaker? Why does he not want to get to the bottom of this whole thing? One only has to suspect that he has someone very close to him that he is trying to protect. Yes, Madam Speaker, who is he trying to protect and why? I have no other questions, Madam Speaker.

Who is he trying to protect and why? Madam Speaker, the mem bers can treat it lightly, but I can tell you one thing that Manitobans will not stand for and that is corruption, and I can tell you right now that there is no end of corruption being carried on under this administration. He is now the government, with all the disclosure that has come before us, is very, very much on the wrong side of the majority of the people of Manitoba, in fact, has lost his mandate.

Well, if, Madam Speaker, this is not the case - and I make this case - this is the point I'm going to make over and over again, then let the Premier stand in his place and make a ministerial announc ement and say we want full and proper disclosure through a public inquiry where the truth will be told by everyone who comes before that public inquiry. But he has not given us that, Madam Speaker, and he has not given us a reason why. Yes, criminal matters should be dealt with by the RCMP.

And, yes, there should be some management consultant look after whether or not somebody can add the proper numbers and they come up with a figure at the bottom that balances with one on the other side. But there is a gap in there, Madam Speaker. As my leader has indicated, discriminatory hiring practices, floggings, Madam Speaker, these aren't matters to be taken lightly and aren't taken lightly by the public of Manitoba. They're taken darned serious ly, Madam Speaker, and that's why it's encumbent upon this Premier to come forward and do what is honourable.

Have a full-blown public inquiry into the activities of a Crown corporation of which he is the father, of which he established as the Premier of this province. Why did he do it, Madam Speaker? Let's ask the basic questions. Why did we get into this as taxpayers? Why did he fly off to Saudi Arabia with a Crown corporation to develop telephone systems? Why did he, Madam Speaker? Madam Speaker, the Premier signed an Order-in Council in January establishing MTX. He was the Premier; he can't blame anybody else, January of'82.

My constituent at home - and I want to take a minute of my grievance on behalf of my constituent, which was raised during the telephone committee hearing. I want to raise it dealing with the Minister of Telephones who the other day said, if I would provide him with this individual's name, he would take action. Well, the Mini ster got a letter from this individual on July 21, 19 86. His name is Bob Radcliffe from Waskada.

I talked to him earlier this summer, and he was somewhat upset that Manitoba Telephone System could not provide him with a telephone service equal to his neighbours or other people who got a private line. It's my clear understanding that the Telephone System have a policy where a private line can be installed for $525, even though in Saskatchewan they provide it for nothing - not really nothing, but there isn't a charge to the user. All Saskatchewan users, if they want a private line, they can get it without additional charges, Madam Speaker.

That's the Saskatchewan Telephone System, and you know it's not a bad policy to do your telephone system at home, and not run off all over the world losing money for those people. But here's my constituent's concern, Madam Speaker, and I'm going to read part of his letter into the record. This is to the Minis ter who the other day wanted the name of the individual, even though he got a letter on the 21 st of July. He gets a lot of mail, I'm sure, dealing with telephones these days, so I guess he could be excused for not picking it out.

But it's the second time he was warned about it, because I talked to him about it in committee of Telephones. I'm just going to read part of this letter. "I'm writing this letter to express my concerns re party line telephones in rural Manitoba. Having recently returned from a trip to Expo 86 and there toured the Telecom Pavilion, in which Manitoba Telephone System is a member, I was impressed with modern technology of communic ations, such as the new electronic mail service. However, upon my return to Manitoba, my excitement was crushed when I returned to a 19 50's party telephone system.

At one time, this system might have served the needs of rural Manitobans, but today it is a very outdated, antiqua ted means of communication." And I have to agree with him. When you're trying to operate a farm and you've got three or four people on the line, you've got many business calls to make, the same as any business that's operating an oil company or any other small business, your business is private. "I've applied to MTS for a private-line telephone system twice in the last year, only to be recently told to try again in 1988." 19 88!

You know, that's interesting that he has to reapply in 19 88, and that's two years down the road when we can lose $16 million in Saudi Arabia, we can lose $300,000 playing around with some fast salesmen from the States who are trying to sell a private telephone numb er to the Premier. Madam Speaker, these are all things that make each Manitoban angry. "Living in modern age and expecting the ultimate in commun ications, this kind of service from MTS would not seem possible.

Several of my neighbours over the course of the last two to three years have received private-line service from MTS at a reasonable cost ." Why one individual, why is he being restricted or being put on hold as far as the telephone private line is concerned?

"I have communicated," - and this is with the Min ister of Telephones - "with you," - and that's who the letter is to - "on a radio talk show recently, expressing my concerns, only to be told that because I reside in rural Manitoba," - listen to this, this is the Min ister of Telephones in the Province of Manitoba, here's what he said, and this is a quote from the Minis ter of Telephones on a radio show - "that I could not expect the same service as people who live in urban centres." That's our Minister of Telephones, the NOP Minister saying that rural people cannot expect the same service as ur ban res idents, second-class citi zen s, discrimination, Madam Speaker. 3042

Monday, 18 August, 1986 The Member for Brandon East concurs with it. He says it's true all over the world, so he too discriminates against rural Manitobans. He's a discriminator against rural Manitobans, too. I want the record to clearly show that the Member for Brandon East agrees that it's true that rural residents are discrimina ted against. - (Interjection) - He calls it "crap." Well, it won't be crap, Madam Speaker, because he hasn't heard the end of it yet .

Hi s record isn't clear as to what involvement he's had with Manitoba Telephone System, and won't be, Madam Speaker, until there's a full commission of inquiry clearing his name and every other member of the Cabinet and the caucus. - (Interjection) - That's right, Madam Speaker. I could not expect the same service, as I said, from urban centres. Madam Speaker, th is is really the concerns of an individual who I wanted to put on the record. I think it's important. I just want the last sentence read in.

"No words can truly describe the frustrations of having to drive six miles every time a person wishes to make a business call." And I can certainly appreciate the concerns and the sentiment of that statement. Madam Speaker, is it a priority of a Crown corporation which, after 70 years, still has a deficit to run all over the world to try and make a quick dollar in Saudi Arabia, or to get involved in some new modern technology by a quick salesman in the United States, $3.4 million.

You know, this thing was so hot, this was such a hot piece of advice according to the media that it had to pass through the two boards just like that, MTX and MTS, and to go the Priority and Planning Commit tee or the Financial Board of Cabinet to get $3.4 million just like that. At the same time, Madam Speaker, he can't find money to keep Brandon Hospital open. At the same time, they've taken the ag rep out of The Pas. Madam Speaker, the Min ister of Agriculture doesn't have enough money to maintain a necessary and essential support service.

Is he happy as the Min ister of Agriculture that they're using money in Saudi Arabia and taking his ag rep away from him in The Pas? Where does he stand in all this? Why hasn't he spoken out on it, Madam Speaker?

Well, we've seen the "Telegate," Madam Speaker, under the NDP just starting to unfold because I'm sure - and this I guess is the other reason the Premier doesn't want the Tories to know or the story told - is there are many very credible and competent people working for the Manitoba Telephone System who I am sure are fed up to the teeth with what's been going on and the way in which this Premier has been handling it. They are scared skinny of their jobs, Madam Speaker, because they have nothing else for their security in the long term.

Madam Speaker, let's just look at those people who may have some information to bring forward. It may be relevant and it may not, but after 70 years of a Crown corporation I'm sure there are many stories that have to be told by individuals who are not at the high management level but who are the middle management or the guys that roll their sleeves up and do the work. When a storm comes and they go out on the roads, they know a few things, Madam Spe aker, that they're afraid to tell because that is their livelihood, that is their future.

So what I'm saying, Madam Speaker, in the interests of that Crown corporation, in the interests of those people and the longevity of their jobs and their security, give them the full opportunity to come forward without fear of retaliation on their jobs or their futures or have them so that they will never be promoted to anything more than what they are today if they are seeking a long-term career. I challenge the Member for Lac du Bonnet. Why, as a new member, would he not want to press the Premier into disclosing this whole affair?

The Minister of Natural Resources, I am sure, after prodding from my colleague, the Member for Emerson, found out that he shouldn't have been quite as confident within his own shop as he should have been and, after the prodding from my colleague, finally had some public airing done and found out a few things that opened his eyes, Madam Speaker. Well, we don't need to speak anymore about the Member for Brandon East because of his dealings and his background with McK enzie Seeds - the Min ister who was responsible for how long for McKenzie Seeds? And now look at what the outcome of that full-b lown inquiry was.

Yes, Madam Speaker, we've had some very serious things take place. How can we be sure the same thing is not in the Telephone System? How can we be sure? I asked the member, the Deputy Speaker of the House, who has spoken of integrity, who has told us many times that governments have to have the full integrity and the support of the people: Why does he not stand up in his caucus and say, until we have a full public inquiry, we won't get the full story and the truth? Is he not support ive of the truth, honesty in government?

All the members - it's not one of them - because when you're with a group like they're in with this whole Telephone fiasco and MTX fiasco, there is a shadow over each and every one of them, Madam Speaker. Whether they'r e board memb ers, former board members, any part of this whole operation casts a shadow over each and every one of them; a shadow that would be cleared up if we had a full and public disclosure of the issues that are to this point, not criminal in nature and of those that whatever kind of a consultative management committee he's going to have.

Madam Speaker, I know the Min ister of Urban Affairs is a new member and in selecting the party in which he finally selected to run with would want the party to be wholesome and pure. It is now casting a shadow on the decision that he has made as to who he's going to be involved with politically. Yes, Madam Speaker, he has to question his decision to opt for the New Democratic Party. I'm sure that he has many questions dealing with this matter. He can't get at it, Madam Speaker, as a Min ister and his colleagues aren't going to tell him anything more than what they're telling this Legislature.

You know, one really has to now know why the Premier hesitated to put the current Minister of Telephones in the position he put him in. It would be interesting to know what he had on the Premier or what kind of pressure came to bear to finally put him in Cabinet. MADAM SPEAKER: May I caution the honourable member again about imputing motives. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Sp eaker, I am not intentionally imputing motives. What I am asking for 3043

Monday, 18 August, 1986 in my grievance - and I'll make it very clear - I'm speaking as I'm sure 99 percent of the people of Manitoba would speak if they were standing in this Assemb ly. They do not and will not stand for corruption and misuse of their taxpayer's dollar handled by any political stripe. It so happens, Madam Speaker, the Premier of this province formed a company known as MTX under his signature in Cabinet. Every Cabinet Minister around him supported him, every backbencher supported him, Madam Speaker, and they've been off and running now since 1982.

There have been very, very serious allegations made by a former employee of MTX. There are many other people who are afraid to speak out and wish to, Madam Speaker. And why can't we get to the bottom of it through a full blown public inquir y where people are asked under oath to tell the truth? I'm not casting aspersions, Madam Speaker. They have cast them upon themselves. The activities of the last two weeks, Madam Speaker, cast the aspersions upon themselves. Not me, Madam Speaker, it is not I or any member of the Opposition.

It is their own doing, it is their own activities, it is their own actions to try and cover up someone or something that is close to them. Madam Speaker, they have not given the public or the Opposition a strong defence of the position that they have taken. Until they give us a strong defence, we aren't going to back off because, as a loyal Opposition, our job is to fully disclose the activities of government because they are using the taxpayers' money to carry out all activities.

Particularly, Madam Sp eaker, one could say we will back off just a little bit if they had pr ovided some service for Ma nitoba Telephone System users to make sure that more people had a private line, they had a better system. If they just had a little better service, one could back off just a little. You can't back off on wrongdoing; you can't back off on discrimination. You could back off if, for example - and they've done it - dealing with Highways where the Min ister of Highways probably has better highway systems than someone else.

The pub lic gen erally accepts that the Minister is going to make sure he's not going to be without a bad road. Goodness sakes, we've had 15 years of proof of that under the ND P, Madam Speaker, that they're quite prepared to make sure the Min ister of Highways has a decent road. In today's politics, that isn't the same kind of concern - it's more accepted. What isn't accepted is the kind of corruptive actions, the kind of deceiving, the kind of misleading - and I use that word advisedly, Madam Speaker - misleading statements that this Minister has been given. Now here's another thing.

The rule that I always operated by, Madam Speaker, and I'm sure every member does, and as a Cabinet Mi nister in particular, when you walked into the Legislative Assem bly, you swore an oath, and when you opened your lips and uttered a sound, you were pretty much respon sible for it. I can't remember of a Cabinet Minister coming in and being able to utter, well, I've been misled and I misled the House or I said something to the press and now I'm coming in to correct the statement, Madam Speaker.

We work on the assumption that everything put on the record is factual and true, and if it isn't and the Minister is honourable, then he will resign. That's really where it's at, Madam Speaker, if he is honourable. MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that all members of the House are honourable members. MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Madam Speaker, I take your words very advisedly because that's true.

We have to assume that every member is honourable and until now, Madam Speaker, I have, but the current issue that is before us is starting to cast some shadows of doubt - not only starting to; the storm is overhead, Madam Speaker - the lightening is striking, the thunder is crashing and it's right around the Minister of Telephone Services. Yes, Madam Speaker, and even more, the Premier, I am sure, has some very, very serious doubts as to the advice that he took in the handling of this whole matter.

The Min ister of Education should be very thankful - or he shouldn't be thankful - but I think he is somewhat thankful that this issue changed the direction of the attack. Only a week-and-a-half ago, Madam Speaker, he was the full focus of attention because of his incompetent handling of the Brandon University affair, the handling of the million-dollar man affair.

Again, the Member for Brandon East comes into focus and the Premier, because I can remember during the election campaign it was the skuttle-butt - I can't find it in print - but they were determined that the president of the University of Brandon would be dismissed. It took some ti me, Madam Speaker. It took the appointment of their board. It took the activities of a board that finally caused it to happen and it cost the taxpayers a million dollars, Madam Speaker. I am going to talk of a couple of other areas. We talk about Manfor currently.

Madam Speaker, again that same Minis ter of Education - he doesn't have the same smile on his face as he did two minutes ago - the Minister who is supposed to be responsible for Manfor is now running around saying - and by the way, I still want the six-month report from the Mini ster responsible for Manfor - I understand that the saw mill is going to be shut down at Manfor. Madam Speaker, they ran out of wood. You know why they ran out of wood, because in March of this year, they had a big layoff at Moose Lake Loggers. That's why they ran out of wood.

They tried to use the feeble excuse that it's wet and raining and they can't get the logs out. I know for a fact that the truckers who bring the logs out are prepared to bring the logs in at less of a cost, to take part of their load train off so they're able to do so. All this weather business and shortage of logs is not a strong argument. I'm going to put some other comments on the record, too. It's interesting to know, Madam Speaker, the history of Manfor, the hiring of the former executive, the CEO , Mr . Sweeney, and th e activities of the Crown Corporation.

Maybe we should be pressing for - well, I know what we should be presing for - is the removal of an incomp etent govern ment. That's what the people want. But what Crown Corporation hasn't got itself into a mess under this administration? You know one of the 3044

Monday, 18 August, 1986 reasons I think it happens, Madam Sp eaker? They look at this government and they say, oh, my goodness sakes, there's no leadership; there's no direction; we'll just run away with the thing the way we want. And it takes the Opposition, it takes the general public to come forward. I can assure you, Madam Speaker, that the stories all haven't been told out of Manfor because I'm working on some right now that I would think will cause some difficulty for the current Min ister that's responsible, in some of the recent activities. - (Interjection) - He says he was there Saturday.

People aren't going to run up to the Min ister when he's there and say Mr. Min ister, I think this kind of thing is going wrong. Madam Speaker, the Crown Corporations do some of the other things. They make sure the Min ister doesn't find out about it. While I'm on that subject about finding out, how long did it take the Min ister of Telephones to really get a hold of the problem that was disclosed to him? - (Interjection) - That's right, he still hasn't. But he said, "I'll take all these questions as notice." He had a long weekend in which to look into it. A MEMBER: Prove it. Give us information. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Yes, prove it. How long, Madam Speaker, do the Opposition have to put up with the incomp etence of the present Minister of Telephones? I think we'll get him, Madam Speaker; I think he'll have to resign before this whole fiasco is over with. I'm sure he will have to. I'm sure the Premier will be very sorry he hasn't dismissed him by this time. In the McKenzie affair, what happened to the current Min ister at that time? He sh uffled him aside, he put somebody else in. What happened in Hydro and Energy . He quickly moved the Min ister out, Madam Speaker, and put somebody else in.

But this time he didn't move the Min ister out. What is this Minister of Telephones - you know, there's something starting to link together - what has this Minis ter of Telephones got on the Premier? Because first of all, the Min ister didn't get to Cabinet until he made a kafuffle. Now, Madam Speaker, the Premier is leaving him in the position of Telephones Minis ter and the Min ister is covering up. They won't have a public inquir y. There is a major question, Madam Speaker.

When th e head of Autopac, or Public Insur ance Corporation got one little shadow over his head, chop, the Min ister of Autopac got rid of him. But we have an interesting connection. The Min ister responsible for Telephones got into Cabinet, not on the first writing of the Cabinet documents but because he made some little noise or something happened that would cause the Premier to reconsider the Min ister. We now have, after how long, three weeks of the biggest mess in a Crown Corporation that this province has seen in its history and hopefully will ever see, Madam Speaker, the Minister is still there.

The Minis ter is still there and the Premier is supporting what the Min ister said, which is not what the public wants. When did this First Min ister not yield to public pressure? He finally yielded on the language debate. He finally yielded after he was brought to his senses. But there's some connection between what this Minister who is now responsible for Telephones, his getting into Cabine t init ially, his current continua nce in his incompetent handling of the affairs of Telephones, and no defence.

I'm sure that if people start to tie this together, Madam Speaker, one has to look very carefully at the Premier himself and the Minister responsible. I asked the other members of his Cabinet and his caucus. Why aren't they asking the same questions? Why aren't they asking the questions? What is going on in MTX and MTS between the Premier and the Minister responsible? I ask the question. MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member's time has expired.

The motion before the House is that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. QUESTION put; MOTION carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Housing; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HOUSING MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Commit tee will come to order.

We are dealing with the Estima tes of the Department of Housing. On page 101, we will be beginning with Item 1., Resolution 98, but prior to that we will have a statement from the Minis ter. The Mi nister of Housing. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make a short opening statement and talk a little bit about the priorities and some of the accomplishments in the Department of Housing. I want to make sure that one of our priorities is to make sure that people of low income and special needs have access to suitable and affordable housing.

We also want to stimulate and influence the activities of the pr ivate housing market for the benefit of all Manitobans and we want to maintain and improve the quality of Manitoba's existing housing stock. We have one of the largest amounts of older housing stock in our province and that has to be one of our top priorities. We also want to make sure that rent increases are fair and that landlord and tenant disputes are resolved equitably and fairly to both sides.

We're continuing to fund both publicly and privately owned non profit housing throughout the province, in cooperation with the Federal Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Since 1982 to'85 we committed about 1, 900 nonprofit units, expect to commit another approximately 700 units this year. In urban centres, the Public Non-Pr ofit Program has targeted 100 percent to low income families and senior citizens. But we also provide affordable housing through our Rural and Northern Program. It serves households of 3045

Monday, 18 August, 1986 low to moder ate in come in com muni ties with populations of less than 2,500. I think the greatest concern about this program is the strict building code that CMHC stipulates. It's suitable to southern housing but not to the North. We raised this as a major issue at the recent conference on housing and I think had a lot of support for Manitoba's position, saying that we have got to start building houses in the North that both suit the climate and the lif estyle. We can't afford to continue wasting the money and building totally inappropriate homes.

We've called on the Federal Mini ster to relax the codes to allow for more suitable and creative housing and will continue, as a province, to make those points. We're also discussing the possibility of establishing a joint federal-provincial program to provide mortgage insurance in single resource high risk communities.

I think we quite agree with the Federal Government policy that they should be providing insurance at reasonable rates throughout the province, but find that the reality is that where they come to either high risk in the northern and remote single resource communities, where the market is high, where they are actually refusing to provide insurance and that's a very serious issue for us and one that we also made at the housing conference. Many of our rural or northern units are administered by our 94 local housing authorities.

These boards provide involvement at the local level, better in tegration of the units into the communit y and increased commitment to maintaining the units. We want to take this opportunity to thank the 650 people involved in provincial housing authorities, all who worked without pay. In addition to providing public housing to some of the needy, we are providing shelter allowances to help others afford private market rental accommodation. Last year, mo re than 6,000 households received subsidies totalling $4.8 million to help them afford private market rents.

As well, 7,800 of our pensioner tenants benefited under our School Tax Assistance Program, which is funded by the Department of Finance and administered by housing. The payout totalled $1. 5 million. Landlord and tenant issues occupy a large amount of staff time. During the last calendar year, rent controls achieved a high level of success with an estimated 91 percent of controlled units receiving increases at or below the guideline.

The Landlord and Tenant Review Com mittee which is reviewing existing legislation expects to have its report completed by December and amendments will be likely during the next Session of the Legislature. Manitoba Housing also help homeowners through various home repair programs. On our main cost-shared program, concern th at Federal Government has toughened up the eligibility guidelines, we've discussed the problem with Stewart Mcinnes and the Federal Government has promised to review the guidelines. We're working on a New Ho me Rehabilitation program which will be strictly provincial.

It will be open to existing owners of homes in need of repair and those who want to buy and renovate an older home - important since Winnipeg has some of the oldest housing stock in Western Canada. We will guarantee mortgage interest rates below prevailing market rates. We are currently working on development of this program and hope to have it in place by October . The Home Repair Programs assist neighbourhood improvement, but we take even more active steps to accomplish this goal in the Core Area. We have recently completed the successful sale of some 40 infill houses. I think the numbers have increased.

We have another 35 in the process of being marketed. These are in addition to the 76 sold since 19 83. Subsidies are available to h elp lower income families with children to afford the mortgage payments. People are clamouring to get into these homes. Th e response on the first day of t he public sale was very very good and sinc e then we have been inunda ted - the department - with hundreds of telephone calls of peop!e who are interested. The houses are going well; the'1 are being processed well. We already have a waiting list for the infill homes that we'll be building next year.

So, people want to stay in the Core, they want to move into the Core Area and want to raise their families there. I think this is a program that is helping them do that. I'm reminded that in a recent Free Press article, the Associate Dean of the Architectural Department of the Un iversity of Manitoba, who indicated that he was not a great lover of government programs suggested that the Infill Program was one of the greatest success stories that he had seen. Another program bringing permanent residents downtown is our RentalStart Program.

It provides low interest mortgages to assist the private sector in developing residential units, rental units. In downtown Winnipeg alone, we've committed $64 million for 876 rental units. Proposal calls under that program are now closed in the city but the program is continuing in all areas outside of Winnipeg. Throughout the province, RentalStart projects will account for approximately one third of all multiple-unit construction this year.

Also active in new home development in several subdivisions, in Meadows West in northwest Winnipeg, we've sold 572 lots to homebuilders since January of 1983, and we propose to market another 56 lots this fall. Between next year and 1991 we expect a further 500 lots will be developed in Meadows West, along with 700 lots in our new John Bruce subdivision, which lies just southeast of the intersection of Bishop Grandin Boulevard and Ste. Anne's Road. I'm having some competition here, Mr. Chairman, from my colleague. MR. CHAIRMAN: My apologies. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Oh, we'll record that please, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Having admitted culpability, we can perhaps continue without the side conversation. The Min ister. HON. M. HEMP HILL: That's right. The Manitoba Housing subdivisions represent great opportunit ies for small builders, and I think that's one of the most important things we've done there, is make lots available for small builders, unlike the major developers. We have no builder subsidies to grab up the best lots. This helps foster a greater competitiveness among builders. Overall, the housing market's in very good shape. Provincial housing starts this year are expected to reach 3046 y

Monday, 18 August, 1986 the highest level since 19 78, indicative I think of an overall healthy economy - some in -mig ration and declining interest rates - and I think the activities and the programs of our department. We have 30 housing-r elated programs, 256 staff members, not all of whom are here today, but a fair number of them, to help provide information. The total budget request for year ending next March 31 is for 46.16 million. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN, J. Maloway: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairman, and thank you, Madam Mi nister, for your comments.

Really, as far as I personally am concerned, I find that many of the programs that have been instituted over the last number of years are very laudable. One other thing that I think has changed the attitude of builders and purchasers, no doubt, we all have to agree that the interest rates certainly have made an impact on purchasing and building. I recall when I was on City Council, where we offered houses for infill housing - this is prior to the core area development - we were offering houses at next to nothing, for $1 .00, and we had no takers, absolutely no takers.

This goes back about seven or eight years ago, like you said, before the core area development began. I don't begrudgingly give the NOP credit for coming up with some of the programs and the help that they were able to give to RentalStart and so on. I give you credit for doing that. But I think that a lot of the credit, too, along with the help th at the government has given, has been the rate of interest, how it has dropped so that it did make it possible that people were able to buy their first house. It has made better housing all the way around.

I think we can call the staff here and I hope to get through this before 5:30, so that we don't have to bring the staff back this evening. HON. M. HEMPHILL: That is cooperation. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: We're now on 1. (

b) Executive Support - the Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Mr. Deputy Chairman, really, I don't have a great deal of contentious issues on the figures here. I believe that in looking them over, sure there have been some increases, some decreases, but I feel relatively assured that these are just normal increases, particularly on the staffing. I don't see that there is anything exorbitant, any exorbitant increases. So I really don't have any reason to want to go through it line by-line. I have several things that I do want to talk about.

One of them, Madam Mini ster, you did mention, with regard to the alternative housing for the North, I'm interested in knowing how you would change what is going on now. What changes would you make in the construction to make better housing in the North? HON. M. HEMPHILL: I think that we need to make some fairly major changes. Right now we're required to conform to the CMHC building codes which are the same codes that are required for building in the south, southern homes.

So what you will find when you go into the remote area in the north that we're building a three bedroom home, for instance, where the kitchen, bathroom, Corlon floors, drywall. There's nobody up there who can repair drywall, for instance. Exactly the same kind of a home as we're building down south. It's totally inappro priate for a couple of reasons: it's not the way people live, it's not the kind of space they need, it doesn't suit their lifestyle at all. It's costing us a lot of money and a lot of unnecessary money.

We have to fly everybody up there, we have to fly all the materials up, when something goes wrong you have to fly people up to repair it. What we want to do is have much more flexibility. Now, I don't think we have any perfect solutions; I wish we did. But there have been attempts made already to try a number of different kinds of construction and methods and they've been very successful. They've cost sometimes less than half the amount of money we're spending now. They're much more satisfactory to the clients and that's important.

One of the things we do with these building codes is we don't ask the clients what they want. We simply � go in with a plan of a house that we build in the city, build it and hand them the keys and say here's your house; not how do you live, what kind of space do you need. It might be that a trapper and a fisherman earning $1 0,000 a year needs a shed on the back of a house to skin or take care of his traps and things, much more than he needs something that we're giving him. (Mr. Chairman, M.

Dolin, in the Chair.) What we asked when we were out at the housing conference was that we be allowed to deviate from the existing - there's two things we can do. You can bring in a new code, which I think would take a lot of time and cause a lot of problems perhaps in coming to agreement; or allow flexibility in the codes that are there when we're building in the North. Let us try a few different things. Let us try to build some models and some homes with the people that are there. One of the things the program doesn't do is allow them to participate.

Somebody might have a couple of sons and themselves, they might be willing to work • and put some labour into it. We don't allow that. So � we make them get exactly the kind of a house we want to build. We had a lot of support, I think, from a number of other provinces, particularly British Columbia I think was su pp ortiv e on th at one - most of the other provinces. What we have now is an agreement from the Federal Government that a certain percentage of the homes, each province will be allowed to deviate from the codes and to build and try other models; however, the numbers aren't high enough.

We're still going to continue, over the next five-year period, to build far too many and by far the largest number of hous es unde r the old building codes. So we're continuing to make our points. I think we have a commitment or an agreement from the President of CMHC to come and tour the North with us. In other words, he said he will come to Manitoba and go with us into these communities, look at the kind of housing we're building that we don't want to build, and look at some of the housing that is working better and that we would like to continue. 3047

Monday, 18 August, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we have a little order, please? If you want to converse, please do it in the rear. The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, are you basically saying that this housing would be for the Natives rather than ... HON. M. HEMPHILL: It would be largely Native but not necessarily only Native. MR. R. NORDMAN: I think that pretty well covers that, Mr. Chairman, and we'll just go on to another subj ect here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know in what order you may be covering this, but I'd like to ask one question under Research and Planning and whether you would like to proceed to that point, or however. MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll pass 1. (

a) if the member is finished. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: I have before me, Mr. Chairman, the Supp lementary Information, and I refer to Page 17 , Research and Planning, reference No, 3. The second item talks about the department's strategic planning function. I'm wondering if the Min ister can tell me what this function is. Is it put to paper and can she share that with us? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, this is basically an internal government document that we developed to give us an overview of planning and issues that we'll be dealing with for a period of three to five years. It deals with such things as the market, environmental issues. Mr. Chairman, I'm advised also that it's part of our budget planning process. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'd ask the Min ister, because it's in capitalized letters, whether or not a document exists that captures the essence of this planning function and, if so, whether she can share that with us. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, the document that we produced is the same document that all departments are producing. The information is provided to the Min ister of Finance, the Department of Finance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: I assume, Mr. Chairman, we're having some general questions on Housing. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. MR. D. BLAKE: I wanted to ask the Min ister some questions on Native Housing. It's a responsibility of this department, Native Housing. 3048 HON. M. HEMP HILL: It's a shared resp on sibili ty between ourselves and CMHC. MR. D.

BLAKE: I wonder if the Minister could tell me the situation with the Native Housing at National Mills and at Baden. How many units are there and how many are presently vacant? HON. M. HEMPHILL: We believe that might be a CMHC responsibility if you can just hold for a minute. We might go on to another question and we'll let staff find that. MR. D. BLAKE: Do we have some responsi bilit y with the housing projects at Wabowden? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, we have units th at we administer at Wabowden. MR. D. BLAKE: What is the situation there? Are there any vacant?

What is the situation with the rental payments or the mortgage payments on them? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I believe th at the family units at Wabowden, there are no vacancies and there is a waiting list. The elderly is newer, and there might be some vacancies there or some vacancies in the elderly. MR. D. BLAKE: How are the mortgage payments or rental payments on those units? HON. M. HEMPHILL: How are they, how much? MR. D. BLAKE: Are they up-to-date? What are the arrears? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, just a general comment about the arrears.

In general, we're improving the situation all over the province in terms of the numbers and the amount of arrears. In this particular case, we don't have the information with us, but we can get it for you and provide it. MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Min ister could give us an up-to-date list of the units, number of units in arrears and the amount of the arrears that would be broken down, one year arrears, two years, six months, one year, two years, something of that nature that we could get some handle on the situation. HON. M. HEMPHILL: In this community or overall? MR. D. BLAKE: Overall. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, we thought we had the detail on a regional basis, but we find that we don't have that with us. We can ... MR. D. BLAKE: You can get it and provide it to me later, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it possible to provide it at a later date?

Monday, 18 August, 1986 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, later today? MR. CHAIRMAN: Or at a later date. HON. M. HEMPHILL: At a later date, yes. MR. D. BLAKE: The situation at Gillam where there was a problem with the contractor moving out with basements half-finished, unfinished, how did we finally resolve that problem? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the problem is Hydro's responsibilit y. MR. D. BLAKE: Strictly - housing is not involved there at all. How about the other areas in the North where there was faulty construc tion.

There were tremendous problems a year or two ago with basements heaving and cracking and houses going into a state of disrepair. What's the situation there now? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we have a program with the Federal Government which is a retrofit program where we go into these commun ities. We've been into Wabowden, God's Lake, Brochet. CMHC goes in sometimes on their own and does an examination, and makes corrections that are necessary. MR. D. BLAKE: Is this working out satisfactorily? Are the houses being put back into first-class condition? What is it costing? HON. M. HE MPHILL: Mr .

Chairman, it's my understanding that they are brought up to a good standard. The range of the costs would be $15 ,000 to $20,000.00. I think we were just indicating that I think the original problems are often design problems, and that's where we have to start dealing with the issue, not correcting them at this cost later on down the road. MR. D. BLAKE: I find it difficult to comprehend, Mr. Chairman, that there's a design problem in the North. They've been building houses in the North for years and years.

Surely by now, with all the experimentation with permafrost and other problems that they have in the North, surely with the engineering and technical abilities that we have in this count ry, we could have devised a construction that would be suitable to the North that wouldn't create these problems. There have been dollars and dollars and dollars pumped into this over the years. Are we involved in Churchill at all, with the housing there? They've been using an adjustable, stilt-type of pier there, that when there was some change they could adjust it. I haven't been in there for two or three years.

I just wonder if they've worked out satisfactorily? I'm not too sure if the members have been in there any more often than I have. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I'll just give a general comment. I think the member came in just a little after we talked about this issue. We quite agree with him and would be quite happy to have his voice heard, along with ours, to make the point with CMHC.

We don't think it's so much that there aren't better ways of building and that we don't have that information and don't know it; we're not allowed to use it because we have to follow the CMHC building codes, which require us to build the same as we build down south. We're asking and have agreement from the Federal Government to change that so we can do exactly the kind of thing he suggested. MR. D. BLAKE: The Federal Government is to blame again? HON. M. HEMPHILL: I wish I didn't have to do that. I really do. MR. D.

BLAKE: I'll certainly speak to my federal member and if he's had some hand in this, I'll tell him to get the show on the road. We can't afford to keep pouring money down a rat hole; we've got to get a house that'll stand up in the North, inside and out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions dealing with Housing. Would this be the appropriate place to question dealing with the Housing Inspectors? Could we do that? HON. M. HEMPHILL: We're going generally, whatever your questions are. MR. CHAIRMAN: We're not going line-by-line at this point. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Oh, we're not? We're breaking from tradition? MR. CHAIRMAN: Go for it. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to check out, in the last provincial election in the riding of Arthur, an individual who works for the Housing Department ran against me. Did that individual take leave of absence jl during the last provincial election or was he on full pay? � HON. M. HEMPHILL: How did he do, by the way? MR. J. DOWNEY: Seeing as we're breaking tradition, I'll answer the Min ister. He actually ran third, I believe, behind the COR Party.

The question is, was he using the taxpayers' money when he was campaigning against all of the other ones? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we believe that he was either on leave, but he may have taken vacation. Staff will check that out and confirm it. A MEMBER: He couldn't get 35 days vacation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur still has the floor. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would be interested to know the details as to whether he had vacation with pay, or whether he took a leave of absence, or what 3049

Monday, 18 August, 1986 the situation was. I'd like to have a report on that period of time for that employee. As well, what stage is the Critical Home Repair Program at? Is it up-to-date or are there a lot of people on the waiting list? I'd like to know, as well, what some of the criteria are to get support under the Critical Home Repair? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, the Critical Home Repair Program is set up to help preserve the housing stock by providing low-interest loans and grants to seniors and low-income families whose homes are 10 years old and require repairs of a critical nature like plumbing, electrical, and heating. The maximum partially-forgivable loan for families is $3,000.00. The grant for pensioners is $1 ,500.00. In 19 85-86, there were 1,517 recipients and the value of the program, or the cheques issued, was $2 million. And we're just checking on the second part of your question. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Part of the question being the number on the waiting list; the number of approvals opposed to those that have been applied for. That's the question. The number of approvals compared to those that have been applied for; like the applications versus approvals. HON. M. HE MPHILL : Mr . Ch airman , it's my understanding that we're just about up-to-date on the take-up of the program but we don't have the information here that tells us how many people applied and how many approvals were given. We'll have to get that for you. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'd appreciate that information being provided.

I'd just like to have an idea. Does the Minister have a job description, or the criteria as to what qualifications these insp ectors have to have to get the job, and the kind of work activity they perform in a month; how many houses, what area they cover, and the reporting system as to their activities? Is that available? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm informed that we could provide you with a report with that information in it. MR. J.

DOWNEY: I would like that, what the criteria is, the job description as well as the work activities of the same individual that I carried out the question dealing with the election period of time, just to get an idea of the workload the individuals who are inspecting have, the average housing inspections, those types of answers. A report would be helpful. In fact, there must be a report on all the housing inspections within the department for the past year, is that available? And the areas, and the regions they've inspected? MR. CHAIRMAN: Affirmative. MR. J. DOWNEY: Hansard can't pick up a nod of the head. HON.

M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. J. DOWNEY: I thank the Mini ster for being pr epared to provide that information. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chai rperson. I'd like to raise an item I raised last year in Estima tes and I'd like to report to members of the committee, there's been a fair amount of progress in regard to that item, that's the propo sal to establish a seniors' housing complex in Thompson.

Since I raised this matter last year there's been some significant developments, includng an indication by the local Rotary Club that they would sponsor such a development. A MEMBER: Three cheers for the Rotary Club. MR. S. ASHTON: A good group, the Rotary Club. In fact, land has been obtained from the City of Thompson, so that there's been some pretty sign ificant movement toward obtaining such a facility. There actually has been quite good cooperation with the Department of Housing. I certainly give them credit for working with both the local seniors and the local Rotary Club.

What I wanted to do was again flag the sense in Thomp son that we do need a seniors' facility. In fact, I don't think it's an understatement to say, Mr. Chairperson, that seniors' housing is the top priority of the Community of Thompson at the present time and I think I'm speaking for everyone in our community in saying that we're appreciative of the efforts of the Department of Housing and hopeful those efforts, combined with our own efforts in getting the proposal together, will lead to the development of the seniors' housing facility in Thompson fairly soon.

I think if you look at the situation we're in now, as a communit y, we're beginning to need facilities for our seniors. We've got a population that is growing older demographically and I'm very hopeful that we will be able to develop such a facil ity. I would certainl y recommend it to the Minis ter and her department. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, just to say that we agree with the need that's been commun icated by the Member for Thompson, I have a very good working relationship with the Rotary Club and my department; and I think that he can expect to hear something, if not immediately down the road, successfully about this program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: While we're on Northern housing, I was in communication some time back with the people in The Pas and it appears that on the reservation they have a policy whereby if you are not officially married, they will not rent you a house.

So what is happening is that the Natives are coming across the river and moving into the housing that we are providing for them. Could the Mi nister comment on this situation? Are you aware of it? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Not until this moment. I'll have to wait a moment and see if my staff is aware of it. A MEMBER: Aware of the problem or aware of them being married? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Neit her. Mr. Chairman, I'm informed that my staff is aware of it, but feel that it 3050

Monday, 18 August, 1986 isn't causing us a problem, that it isn't taxing our stock at the moment, no. MR. "R. NORDMAN: Well going back to the question that the Member for Minn edosa asked was with regard to the delinquent rentals that prevailed here about two years ago. Has the situation improved over the last couple of years and have the - well, we'll just leave it at that. Has it improved? Have you been able to catch up on some of these people who were in arrears? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there is a considerable improvement overall in dealing with the problem of arrears.

I think it results from the major policy change by the board that came in in 19 84 where they appr oved a com prehensive, com passiona te eviction foreclosure arrears policy - if there is such a thing - but it requires that each tenant-mortgager be visited and arrangements made for the gr adual repayment of arrears and that it takes into consideration the financial situation of each tenant; but it does spell out a stricter control, I think, and that has been put in place. What it has done, it has stopped the increase.

We were facing a considerable increase in mort gage arrears each year and, with the implementation of this policy, that increase has not happened. I'm ju st going to gi ve a little bit of addi tional information. We've got 14 accounts that have recently been turned over for eviction and foreclosure. Those will, I think, be the first and I think the feeling is that once we have actually foreclosed, that the message will get around and we expect that it will help encourage people to pay up. MR. R. NORDMAN: Well then, this will be the first evictions that will be imposed? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, this is just in the R. and N. Program; it doesn't deal with any programs outside, but this will be the first actual evictions. MR. R. NORDMAN: Well have they considered a debt review panel for the arrears, or is that basically what you have now? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm informed that we do review it, that we have staff go up and visit them. In the meeting, they go into quite considerable detail about their financial situation and any problems they're having and they have reviewed or sent on to the debt review panel in the past. MR. R.

NORDMAN: Going back through the history of the Housing Department, in The Pas at one time they had a mobile home park. Is it still there and has it ever shown a profit, or what is the situation with the mobile home park? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, it is still there and the role that we play is to simply provide a guarantee on the mortgages to the banks. MR. R. NORDMAN: Then there was the Bell Avenue subdivision and where do we stand with that?

I gather 3051 there was quite a number of lots there that - the Bell Avenue subdivision - and have we been able to unload any those lots or the units that were - I'm just going back from questions from previous years that were asked and researching it. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Could you repeat the question please? MR. R. NORDMAN: The Bell Avenue subdivision, where are we with it? I understand there were a number of lots and units. Have we been able to sell any of the lots off or the units? HON. M. HEM PHILL: There are one or two lots presently unsold, and I believe we're just bringing on another 43. MR. R.

NORDMAN: Just curious, Mr. Chairman, as to the number of lots that we have in the rural areas. I noticed an ad in the paper here recently with regard to a sale of zoned residential land at Steinbach. I'll pass that on to you and let you have a look at that. Do we have a lot of land, say, at the Steinbach area? What do we have at Portage la Prairie or Brandon? We must have done some land banking somewhere along the line. It would be interesting to know what we have. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, we presently have about 1, 000 acres outside of Winnipeg, 1, 000 in the rural area; and are presently in the process of looking at a strategy for disposal of that property which we don't need. MR. R. NORDMAN: Could we have a - we don't need it today; I don't expect you to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-69a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 69a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	78e3b2bc641fc798586528a6dcf97460df4ed116

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