Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 1975 ' .. 1 .. .... - . SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 42

,J. April 30, 1975. The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1917 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We have two groups in the galleries RI! - 1 today. On an exchange programme with the I.J. Samson High we have twenty-one grade eight students from Westminister Public in Brockville, Ontario with Mr. H.B. Warren and Mrs. Anderson and from the I.J. Samson High here in the city we have twenty-one grade eight students with Mr. Lake. On behalf of all members of the legislature, I welcome you to the galleries today and trust that your visit here is most interesting and informative. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable ~~inister of Fducation. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform members of the legislature of the government's policy with respect to high school bursaries for the academic year commencing next September. In effect, what it is is a twenty-five per cent increase in the amounts available to bursary students. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: As honourable members probably lmow there are two general categories of bursary students.

One is high school students who attend a high school away from their ordinary place of residence and for the previous year that amount was $800 and for the academic year conunencing in September that will be increased to $1000. Honourable members may recall there was in fact a thirty-three per cent increase last year,and this year a twenty-five per cent increase. So those high school students who attend a high school out of their town of residence, the amount will be increased from $800 to $1000. Now, the other category of bursaries is that for students who are required to travel.

The first category is for those who usually board in another community. The second category is for those who are required to travel more than two miles from the community of his residence 5572

April 30, 1975. Tape 1917 RH - 2 to attend a high school and there is no regular school transportation prograrrnne and there the bursary which last year was $400 and that as a matter of fact was last year increased by thirty-three per cent, that amount which was ~400 will, starting in September, be $500. So, what in effect it is, a twenty-five per cent increase in the Rursary Programme for high school students throughout the Province. SO~E HONOTJRABLE MF11BFRS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues I would like to reply to the minister's policy statement regarding high school bursaries for the students in our Province. Sir, any increase in the bursaries to these students whether they are living away from home or whether they have to travel away from home to go to school during the day is indeed welcomed news, any increase of any kind, Sir.

The increase, I understand from the minister, is from $800 to $1,000 for those students who have to board in another community in order to attend high school,and from $400 to $500 for those students who have to travel from their community to attend a high school in another community. Needless to say, Sir, the amount of increase really reflects the, I suppose you could say, the increased cost of living and the inflation.

So, we on this side are in agreement with any attempts to try to keep up with the increased cost of living and inflation as regards to the cost of education for high school students in this Province. However, Sir, there are still some problems that I would like to bring to the minister's attention trl.thout entering into debate which directly affect this and - HON. A. HICKMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROWE: At least you can wait and find out what I am going to say. ''IR. SPFAKER: Order, please! The honourable Minister of Justice on a point of order. MR.

HICKMA1'J: May I point out to the House that the honourable 5573

Apr il 30, 1975. Tape 1917 RH - 3 gentleman is only permitted to ask for clarification of the statements made by the honour able minister. Obviously he intends to embark upon, to use his own word.s, bringing to the attention of the minister other areas of concern,and that sure l y is outside the rules of the f!ouse. MR. ROIIB: To that point of order, Mr. Speal<er. I submit that the minister is simply trying to anticipate what I am going to say and he may or may not be correct.

I think it would be much wiser if the Speaker heard what I had t'o say and decided for himself t.'1\e.ther or not I am in or out: of order on this particular matter. I would lil'.e to, as the minister suggested I can,ask for points of clarification which I intend co do . 5574

April 3n, 1'!75 Tape 1918 (afternoon) IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair certainly does not intend to anticipate what any honourable memher has to say. The comments made by the honourable Memher for St. Rarbe North when he said that he intended to bring to the minister's attention some other problems, at first hearing that the Chair was having thoughts that maybe the member was entering into a debate. The Chair will hear him hut if it feels he is entering into debate, it will not hesitate to tell him that he is out of order. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The thing I would like to bring to the minister's attention and just ask for some clarification on it is really this, In terms of transportation in the South it is my understanding that there is still a difficulty with respect to transportation of the school children to various communities because of the inadequacy of the number of buses in certain areas and because of the road conditions. The second point, Sir, is the fact that many students have difficulty in finding a boarding home in which to live during that year.

So, ·although we do indeed welcome the increase in bursaries to the high school students, I would like a clarification on these two points. Number one, the transportation problem as still exists, and 1 number two, the problem that still exists with respect to students trying to find homes in which to stay. I can give one ex amp le if I may, Mr. Speaker - AN HONOURARLE MEMRER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: - which obviously I cannot. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for St. Barbe North is certainly now entering into a dehate on this statement and is out of order. HON. G.

OTTENHEIMER (MINISTER OF EnUCATION): On a point of order. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. }'R. SPEAKER: Order, please! On a point of order, Sir. MR. OTTENREIMER: Take your seat,please. Take your seat. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 5575

April 30, 1975 Tape 191R (afternoon) IR-2 AN HONOURABLE 'MEm!ER: Sit down, will you. MR. SPEAKER: Enough comment has been made on this ministerial statement and we move on to something else. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I have another ministerial statement . _MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education has another ministerial statement. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I trust, Sir, that the - MR. HICKMAN: Any statement that you make is ministerial. MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is true. That is true. I trust that the honourable gentleman from St.

Barbe North will also be in concurrence with the government's wise policy in this respect as well. I am pleased to inform,Mr. Speaker, honourable members of the legislature and the people of the Province - I heard something from Bonavista North, I am not sure what it was, Sir, - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Po not worry about it. MR. OTTENHEIMER: - whether it was an allowable remark or an unallowable one, but there was some utterance, Sir, which is - hut, you know, the honourable gentleman has quietened down. I wish to announce, ~r.

Speaker, the appointment of ¥.r. Herbert Hellen to the position of Communitv Music Consultant with the Department of Education. I would think- Mr. Hellen is known. Certainly his work is known. AN HONOURABLE "MEMBER: What is h:ls name, Heller? MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, no. Hellen. His work would be known to most honourable members of the House. Actually he is the conductor of the band which has playerl in the Confederation Building,usually Christmas Eve,for the past few years.

He will be working with the division of Adult and Continuing Education and will be responsible for advising and encouraging, assisting in the development of community bands .throughout the Province. He will also be responsible for co-ordinating music programmes sponsored through the Adult Education Programme Department and he will be available to school hoards in the Province who are interested in organizing school or community bands. Mr. Hellen is a graduate of the Trinity College of Music in London. 5576

April 30, 1975 Tape 1918 (afternoon) IB-3 He has been a resident of Newfoundland for approximately eight or nine years. He has considerable experience in music education in Newfoundland and elsewhere. Since 19fi~ - actually that is twelve years.

He has been a resident of the Province for twelve years - he has been supervisor of music with the Conception Bay South Integrated School Board and has heen responsible for the development of the Conception Bay South School Band which is widely known throughout the Province, and this, in fact~is the band which plays in the foyer of the Confederation Building on Christmas Eve or has done so for the past two or three years. Now, he will be taking up his duties with the Department of Education in September, nert September.

Although his appointment does not become effective until September 1 for official and legal and salary purposes, he will be available for consultation with school boards or community groups who are interested in developing school or community bands during the months which are between now and September. So, what in effect that is is that although his appointment is affective in September, he will be available for consultation between now and Septemher. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I stand here in praise of the government on this particular policy statement.

On behalf of my colleague1, Sir, I would like to wish Mr. Hellen, I believe it is if that is the correct pronunciation, wish him e'lery success in his new duties when he takes over in September, 1975, Sir. Music education, Sir, is obviously a very important aspect of our cultural education in this Province which has been lacking to a certain degree over the years. This is welcome news indeed. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do we keep dancing? _MR. F. ROWE: Sir, I imagine that my friend from Hermitage would be happy to avail of the services of the gentlemen when he gets his appointment in September.

Sir, this is a motherhood policy statement. It is not the kind of election bait that we saw in the first policy statement. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HONOURABLE MEJl'BER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We have another 5577

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1919 NM - 1 group which has recently arrived in the galleries from Chance Cove Elementary School at Chance Cove, forty grade five, six, and seven students with Mr. Mugford and Mr. Smith. On behalf of all honourable members I welcome you to the galleries and trust that your visit there is most interesting. Are there any other ministerial statements? PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bay de Verde. MR. HOWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of sixty-four voters of the Southside of Western Bay and the prayer of the petition reads as follows: The prayer of our petition is for the Department of Highways durinp the coming months to pave the road in our community, locally known as the Southside Road,on the following grounds; number one, this road is used by a large number of people including many tourists durinr the summer months and pavement would eliminate the ever present dust problem.

Number two, more important still is the fact that in addition to the many private cars using this thoroughfare the school bus makes five trips daily over this particular road. "This Spring the bus became bogged down on several occasions and required assistance from the Highroads equipment and for several days the roads could not be used at all by the bus making it necessary for the pupils to walk to the highroad. This problem can only be eliminated by pavement, We trust that you will give our petition your serious consideration and that action will be forthcoming during the present year;' Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of these sixty-four residents of Western Bay I support this petition. I understand that this road is about one mile long and,as pointed out in the petition, I am sure pavement could become available this year and it would eliminate all these problems and I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of this House and that it be related to the department to which it relates. MR, SPEAl(ER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. 5578

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1919 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition presented on behalf of the people that live on the Southside of Western Bay, Sir, the prayer of that petition is a reasonable one. The request strikes me as being most reasonable indeed, Sir, and we on this side of the House have no hestitation whatsoever in supporting the petition and I will make you a prediction now, Sir, that the Minister of Transportation and Communications will stand after I take my seat and say that he is glad to welcome this petition.

Well, Sir, we would expect more than that from the Minister of Transportation. We would expect the minister to rise in his place, tell the people over in Western Bay, on the Southside, that their road will be paved this year and it will be made safe for the school buses to drive over this next Spring and Sir, I would hope that the honourable Member will he able to convince his colleague, the Minister of Transportation and Communications to have this short stretch of road included - MR. ROWE: One mile, MR.

NEARY: - only one mile, Sir, included in his five year programme and that that particular piece of road be paved in the first year. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: There is $110 million - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HON. J. ROUSSEAU, MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS: It is rather difficult, Mr. Speaker, you know in the face of the remarks of the honourable Leader of the Opposition, , to hold cool, you know - MR. ROBERTS: To a point of personal privilege, Mr.

Speaker, I take very real offence, if the honourable gentleman, Sir, finds it difficult to hold his cool, Sir, I would suggest that is an internal problem and not one affecting the Opposition. If the honourable gentleman, Sir, has no right under the rules of this House to debate, the most he can do is support the petition and I would ask too that Your Honour urge the honourable gentleman not to disgrace himself by losing his cool in the House. It is his colleague directly behind him who loses his cool in the House, Sir. 5579

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1919 NM - 3 SOME HOL ME!@ERS: (Inaudible) MR, _!P!_AKER: Order, please! The Chair sub11d-ts a_lso that the point of privilege raised by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition is not really a point of privile~e at all but an opportunity to clarify a point that he did not particularly agree with and the honourable minister, by the honourable the'Minister of Transportation and Communications. 11Jl. ROUSSEAU: If there be a nastie .r man in the Province, Mr. Speaker, point him out to me. MR'. DUNPHY: God help him if I lose my cool, MR._R,Q,USSEAU: MR. NEARY: MR.

DUNPHY: MR,:_SPEAKER: ~~ ROUSSEA,U: or assurance. But anyway, Mr, Si,eaker, - Is that a threat? That is a threat. Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, we are not going to giv!! any commitments We will give it sympathetic consideration as we do with every other one and if we had to do the raods that we are asked for in petitions in this -House · durinJ!; this session of course just about the total budget would be expended. We will give it sympathetic consideration and see what we can do.

We have a number of petitions presented in the House and this will get as much sympathetic consideration as any other we had and certainly that is the only collllllitment I can make. 5580

April 30, 1975. Tape 1920 RH - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may say a word in support of that p·etition so ably presented by the gentleman from Bay de Verde. I regret that the Minister of Transportation is unable to give the House an assurance. As one of my colleagues pointed out, with a budget of well over $100 million at his disposal this year I find it astonishing that the minister who is daily calling contracts for millions of dollars worth of road projects is unable to give such a small contract and assurance that it will be done this year. I hope it will be done, Sir.

It is not a great deal of money to request. It might cost several thousand or possibly even more than s1no,ooo to pave a mile of road,depending on the circumstances,but Sir, I think the case is warranted. I would say further to the Minister of Transportation and Communications that whether or not this one mile of road on the Southern side of Western Bay is paved this year will be regarded by people all up and down the North Shore of the Bay as a test of the political efficacy of the gentleman from Bay de Verde.

Sir, if the gentleman from Hay de Verde, the present M=ber from Bay de Verde cannot get a mile of road paved, then, Sir, his colleagues will have let him down, humiliated him, exposed him. So, for that reason, in addition to the very good reason of the merits of the case I support the petition, Sir, and I earnestly urge the minister not just to give it sympathetic consideration. He has given sympathetic consideration to everything, but that I urge him to take some meaningful action and insure that that road is paved this year. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Harbour Grace. MR. H. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support this petition so ably presented by my colleague and seating partner. Sir, this petition refers to tourists, Sir and I am sure at this time of the year the tourists are starting to flow back to Newfoundland and it 5581

April 30, 1975. Tape 1920 is only right and-proper that this road should eliminate the dust. Last night, Sir, we had one great tourist back from Clearwater, Florida over there and I am sure that this road really needs to be paved. Also, Sir, it states there that the buses are hogging down and, Sir, there again I think probably it is one thing that this road should be paved because,like the fellow said last night RH - 2 at that meeting - I know I am not - I would like to relate to this, Sir - that when anything gets bogged down someone has got to come and lift it up.

Sir, I think that the Minister of Transportation and Communications should give these people in South side of Western Bay a little lifting up. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have answer to question number forty- six given by the honourable Member for Bell Island with respect to whether any payments have been made by the Department of ~ines and Energy to Cabot Group 4 Limited, whoever thev are. The answer is, no payments,and the other questions therefore are non-applicable.

AN -HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BABKY: I have no idea who they are. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if I cannot get any information out of the minister on that question, Sir, perhaps the minister can give me some information on the question that I am about to ask him. Would the minister tell the House if the company referred to in the Throne Speech and referred to by the minister on a number of occasions called NORDCO Limited has yet been incorporated? MR. BARRY: Mr.Speaker, yes.

I understand that this company has been incorporated and I understand that there should be further announcements in this regard in the fairly near future. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question to the minister, Sir. Is this company, this new company a private company or a crown corporation? 5582

April 30, 1975. Tape 1920 .RH - 3 MR. BARRY: Mr. Si,eaker, while it has been incorporated under the Company's Act to my recollection, I presume it would qutlify under the definition of crown corporation seeing as the shareholders are members of government . The shareholders are,if I believe correctly, the Minister of Industrial Development, the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Mines and Energy. 11R . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the minister tell the Rouse whethei- or not this new company N0RDCO has yet hired any staff? 558 3

April 30, 1975 Tape 1921 (Afternoon) Mr. Speaker, in this respect the only information I can give the honourable memher here is that the Department of Industrial Development has had a very ahle individual working on its staff in the preliminary work leading up to the formation of this company, a gentleman by the name of Mr. Jan Furst who is very knowledgeable in the field of marine technology - MR. THOMS: He is from Carbonear is he? PK - 1 MR.

BARRY: - employment relating to 1 or employment opportunities relating to shipyards, shipbuilding, ship repair, marine technolor,y generally, and this individual I will assume will be also associated with NORDCO. And NORDC01 for honourahle memhers who are not aware of it,stands for Newfoundlan~ Ocean Reserach and Development Corporation.

And the objective in the formation of the Company, of course, as has heen mentioned before is to develop whatever opportunities exist in the area of Ocean Research and Development to develop these opportunities within the Province of Newfoundland, to ensure that any employment opportunities, for example, or any contracts that may be done here in the Province relating to either offshore oil and gas, Arctic shipping or any other area where we as an Island on the East Coast of Canada should have a particular advantage,to ensure that these opportunities stay within the Province. MR. NEARY: ------- Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. Would the minister please tell the House then if this new company, NORDCO will be letting contracts or have they let any contracts? And if they will be letting contracts will they be following the procedure of the Puhlic Tendering Act? Have any contracts been entered into? Have any consultants been employed yet? And would the minister also while he is on his feet indicate to the House whether there has been any loans or guarantees approved for this company? And will there be an annual report made to the House of Assembly on this companv? Mll. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, on this matter I think the honourable member has it just completely backforemost,as normal. The objective in creating this company is to ensure that this company obtain s contracts from either the oil industry, the shipping industry and so on, obtains contracts and keeps the employment benefits and so on 5584

AprH 30, 1975 Tape 1921 (Afternoon) pj_ thin the Province MR. NEARY: No. MR. M.RRY: for such developments. Now I would assume, Mr. Speaker, that there would also be, and that the normal procedure would be for this company to go out,obtain contracts and then make arrangements with respect to either industry within Newfoundland or PK - 2 the University of Newfoundland because this Corporation is contemplated as a partnership of three distinct elements within the Province, government, the University and industry.

And once they obtain contracts or have the possibility of obtaining contracts I assume that they would then make arrangements either with the University or with industry for the carrying out of such contracts, and I would assume that they would follow, and they would follow normal government poUcy in this respect. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. The minister did not answer the part of the question - MR. BARRY: Part of the second part. MR. NEARY: - will the company or crown corporation or whatever the minister thinks it is, will it be reporting to this House? Will it he responsible to the House?

Will it come to the House before giving any loans or guarantees or awarding any contracts or employing any consultants or giving out any - or calling public tenders? they report to this House? Will MR. BARRY: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not expect that it will come to the House before carrying out any contracts or before - MR. NEARY: 1'1R. llARRY: MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: Awarding contracts. - retaining any consultants - Loans? - or any more than the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation comes before awarding any contracts. MR. NEARY: But will we get an annual report? MR. BARRY: That is utter nonsense. But, Mr.

Speaker, I expect that the corporation will report to the House probably through the Minister of Industrial Development - 5585

Apr il 30, 1975 Tape 1921 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Can we have that as another - MR. BARRY: - with any other crown corporation does. 1 am not going to undertake, Mr. Speaker, until 1 have an opportunity to check, I can get the information for the honourable member as to the pr ocedure that is contemnlated to be follo~ed here. But my understandinP, at the present ti.me is that it would report through t he Minister of Indust r ial Development who would in turn report to the Rouse in the normal arrangem ent of any crown corporation . ~-- N'EARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I than k the ministe r .

T hope 1 can y.et the inf ormation as quiekly as possible . Si-r, I wonder if the ~!inister of Transportation and Col!lllluni cations could tell the llouse now that we are getting into the wam season agai-n, and our thoughts are turning to forest fires, are the water homber~ back in the Province ye t, Lhe government's air force back from Winnipep. yet,could the minister tell the House? 55 86

April 30, 1975 Tape no, 1922 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Transportation and Coumunications. MR. ROUSSEAU: We have two in the Province that have been refurbished, We had one that went to Toronto for painting. The work was done here but it has gone to Toronto for paint~g. I do not know if that one is on the way back, but it will be immiently,one of the two that were in Calgary. The pilots went out yesterday, I believe, to take the first one back. The other one will be ready within the next week or so.

So we do not anticipate any problems in having the five water bombers available on the dates that are indicated each year. There will be no lateness in the availability of the five planes. MR. SPEAKER: The Bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a further question. Is the minister aware of the circumstances surrounding the decision to award that contract to the Field Aviation Company in Calgary for the maintenance and conversion work on the two bombers which were sent to Calgary? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. ROBERTS: The Bon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications, I do not understand the question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the question quite simply was: Is the minister aware of all the circumstances surrounding the decision to award ' the contra .ct to Field Aviation to carry out the work that was carried out or presumably has been or is being carried out in Calgary? MR. ROUSSEAU: I recall there was quite a bit of discussion on it. I do not know whether or not 1 because apparently or maybe the Hon. Leader of the Opposition has something in mind that I do not know. But I would never say that I know all.I do not.

I know what was necessary to know, and in consultation with my colleague, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and in consultation with federal and provincial officials, the decision was made. And,you know,if I said, yes, I am aware of everything then it is quite possible that I may not be aware of everything. What I had to know I was satisfied and my colleague was satisfied and the Federal-Provincial .Liaison Committee 5587

April 30, 1975 Tape no . 1922 Page 2 - mw were satisfied that we had the information. A decision wae made and agreed to by all involved, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware that the aircraft were sent to Winnipeg? The contract was awarded, the aircraft were sent West, were halted by ministerial order for a period of days, possibly even weeks while some frantic consultations and discussions went on.

Is the minister aware of the circumstances underlying that decision to award the contract, the further decision to stop the aircraft en route and then the still further decision to award the contract to the Field Company? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, I am, Mr. Speaker. The airplanes were dispatched from Newfoundland without departmental approval, be it the Department of Forestry and Agriculture or be it the Department of Transportation and Communications. It is actually under use of the Department of Forestry and Agriculture. They had the agreement signed with the federal government.

The airplanes were dispatched out of the Province without authority. They were stopped in Toronto because they wanted to attempt to determine whether the work could be done in this Province, That was brought to our attention after the airplanes had left. We held them up in Toronto until we had further meetings on it, further discussions on it and again we met with the Fede~al-Provincial Liaison Co11111ittee and verified their original decision and the planes were dispatched to Calgary for the " work to be done on them. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary.

The cost, and the minister might indicate to ue the cost the government have incurred, was it borne by this Province by Ottawa or by some combination of the Province and Ottawa? And if so, what was the combination? MR. ROUSSEAU: Now,here I do not know. It was the majority if not all from Ottawa. I think it was an agreement. I do not know that, I would have to take it under notice. But I know the majority would have been, if not all, paid for by Ottawa. 5588

April 30, 1975 Tape no. 1922 Page 3 - mw MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the minister would undertake to get that information, I should be very grateful. Meanwhile could he tell us who then dispatched the aircraft; if they were dispatched without proper permission? I was not aware that goverma.ent aircraft could be sent anywhere and especially outside this Province without proper permission. And secondly, if they were sent improperly, as the minister says, what action has been taken against the individual who authorized their dispatch? MR.

ROUSSEAU: The authorization to send them was done by the chief pilot, Captain Ted Piercey and the matter was brought to Mr. Piercey's attention, Captain Piercey's attention. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I could go on on that one in view of the action that has been taken in respect to other employees of the goverDD1ent air service who had not lived up to their undertakings, but let me turn to a different thing. Was the contract awarded to the lowest bidder, Sir? MR. ROUSSEAU: I, you know, again, and I would like to understand what I am saying is as accurate as I recall because this was a number of months back.

Whoever it was awarded to it would have to be awarded on the okay of the Federal-Provincial Committee, Now whether it was awarded to the lowest tender or not, I do not think it was as a matter of fact, I do not think it was, But the company that had the lowest bid that would fulfill the specifications, in the consideration of both,· I should not say both conmittees, a single conmittee, the committee representing the federal and provincial govermnent felt that the best overhaul could be done with the prices by the Field people who had originally built the airplanes in Calgary. So it was not a 5589

April 30, 1975 Tape 1923 (afternoon) TB-1 unilateral provincial decision, the decision rerommended to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture actually rather than - of course we control it but it is through the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. Their recommendation was that it be awarded to Field. Field was not the lowest tender.

No, there was one tender lower but there was some concern expressed whether the people had the ability to finish the job on time and it was quite important,of course 1in their opinion - J am telling you what we were told - that it he done on time and that a good job be done because these water bombers are quite old. So, on that basis of the information and other technical advise,of which I do not have, the decision was made, a recommendation was made to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture to award the contract to Field Aviation, MR. FOBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the fact the minister does not have all the facts readily to hand, hut I hope he will permit me, Your Honour, to ask another two or three supplementary questions of this somewhat curious turn of events 1n connection with this contract. First of all, Sir, would the minister indicate 1 please,the fedPral­ provincial agreement under which the monies have been made available to the Province? MR. ROUSSEAU: First of all, Mr. Speaker, let me stand here and say there is in my own personal opinion and the personal opinion of both committees nothing curious about it, nothing whatsoever.

Now, that suggestion is unsatisfactory. You know, it is just not acceptable. There was nothing - in other words whet the honourable Leader of the Opposition is saying, Mr. Speaker, is that there was a deal amongst a committee who made the recommendation. I think the honourable - you know, I do not think that is what the honourable the Leader of the Opposition meant. I certainly hope he will clarify that when he stands up. The agreement was made, as I understand it again - and I am only going back.

I do not want to be held to - I am saying to the best of my knowledge,! should say, it was made under the Forestry and Agriculture BREE subsidary agreement. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I find it curious that there is nothing listed 5590

April 30, 1975 Tap~ 1923 (afternoon) in the estimates. Now, let me say although I am not allowed to make a speech that I have no quarrel with the committee, but i& is cowardly of IB-2 the minister to attempt to hide behind the skirts of a committee of officials. ~- ROUSSEAU: But, I am not - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, if I may be permitted - SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: If I may be permitted a further - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order. MR. ROBERTS: Is he going to sit down?

I am not going to sit down unless he does, Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice has risen on a point of order. MR. ROBERTS: All right. Let him make it then. MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The honourable Leader of the Opposition is totally and absolutely departing from the rules of questioning. He is starting to make a speech. The insinuation thst the honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications is hiding behind anyone or hiding anything is totally inappropriate and totally out of order in this House. MR. BARRY: The word cowardly is unparliamentary. MR.

NEARY: Do not have a stroke. MR. HICKMAN: And the word cowardly, I suspect, is unparliamentary, but I would have to reach for Beauchesne, I would su~mit. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I began my remarks by saying that I realized I was not allowed to make a speech. But, since the minister invited me to make a comment, I felt sure his colleagues would wish me to have set the matter straight. If the word cowardly is unparliamentary I withdraw it, but I still feel it is cowardly of the minister. He was the one who introduced the federal-provincial committee concept into this.

I am asking him some questions. Once Your Honour rules on the point of order, I would like to ask one or two other supplementary questions in relation to a 5591

April 30, 1975 Tape 1923 (afternoon) Ill-3 series of events that I consider to be hj_ghly curious. I use a neutral word, I could use stronger. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! While it is true perhaps that the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications did say in his comments that he would like for the honourable Leader of the Opposition to clarify a point, that still does not give the honourable Leader of the Opposition the right,as he said when he got up,to make a speech.

Only the Chair perhaps can decide what the ruling will he with regards to any member asking a question and making a speech in doing so. As regards to the word cowardly, the Chair feels that perhaps it is a little unparlia~entary and would prefer that the honourable the Leader of the Oppositjon,or any other member for that matter,not use it, }(R. ROBERTS: I thank you, Sir. If a little bit of it is unparliamentary, I will withdraw a little bit of it and we will consider the matter of that word settled.

Now, Sir, I wonder if the minister would indicate whether he is willing to lay upon the table of the House the federal-provincial agreement. under which monies were paid out in respect to this, if he would also lay upon the table of the House, Sir, a copy of the minutes of any official collDllittee which approved this series of transactions.

And further, Sir, would the minister tell us whether he has investigated the events - whether he considers them curious or no is a matter of debate . - the events which surround the award of this contract, I have one other question, but let the minister have a chance at these, Sir. MR. ROUSSEAU: No, I 5592

April ~O, 1975. Tape 1924 RH - 1 would not because it is not within my jurisdiction. I just told the honourable the Leader of the Opposition that it falls within the Forestry and Agriculture subsidiary agreement and I think that question would be directed to my colleague,if he were here. But I cannot say that I can table an agreement. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: No, I will not. MR. ROBERTS: · Well, Mr. Speaker, since the Minister of Forestry is not with us, I will direct a question to the Deputy Premier, the Minister of Justice.

Would he undertake to lay upon the table of the House an agreement 1 which is a public agreement, I am sure, nothing hidden about it, a copy of the agreement, the subsidiary agreement under which the Government of Canada contributed some or all of the money in respect of this contract. Furthermore, Sir, would the minister lay upon - It was the Minister of Transportation who raised this question of committees, would he lay upon the table of the House the records, the minutes of this co!IQDittee relevant to this decision. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I would be more than happy to direct the enquiry and the question from the honourable the Leader of the Opposition to my colleague the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

There is one thing I am certain of, that if the Government of Canada has not imposed any rule of secrecy with respect to that agreement that we on this side will be delighted and proud to table the agreement and with the consent again of the honourable the Minister of DREE,because it was his joint committee,! am sure that we will be very, very proud of - we were very, very proud to table in this House the signed approval of the joint federal-provincial connnittee. MR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! Well, that is good. Now, Sir, that will be interesting to see if we get it. The words will be in Hansard.

Now, Sir, a further question for the Minister of Transportation. Is he aware of the fact,and if so, what has he done about it, that a Newfoundland company supported heavily by the financial backing 5593

April 30, 1975 . Tape 19 24 RH - 2 of this government is qualified to do this work and was the lowest bidder? MR. ROUSSEA'G: It was taken into ~onsideration and,as I say, the recommendation that was put before us from technical people - I do not know who can do what in the field of technical work - the reconnnendation that was put before us was put before us by a connnittee was that the work to be done at Field Aviation and that was done, you know. A Newfoundland company, I believe, was low bidder. But low bidder now, the honourable the Leader of the Opposition, that is not quite apt when you say low bidder.

There was certain work, certain highly technical work that had to be done which I understand that may or may not have been done 1 I do not know,or could have been done in this Province. I do not know but I know it was a - you know, do not ask me matters of a technical nature - all I can say is what the technical people tell you and in their opinion that Field Aviation could do the job for the amount, the best job to be done and it was awarded to them. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I find the minister's answer profoundly dissatisfying.

I would like to raise the whole - it is time we went into this whole scandal, Sir. I would like to raise it tomorrow on the late show. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order, ~r. Speaker. I am hot going to sit here and listen to these innuendoes and scandulous - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The Chair would certainly direct the honourable Leader of the Opposition to withdraw the word scandal.

He is inferring that there is something, in the Chair's opinion, criminally wrong with this agreement and the Chair feels that the word scandal is certainly unparliamentary and would ask . the honourable Leader of the Opposition to completely withdraw that. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, in view of that I shall completely withdraw 5594

April 30, 1975. Tape 1924 RH - 3 it. What I may feel about it is another thing. The events will speak for themselves and I wish to raise the matter on the late show tomorrow. I have no hesitation - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: - in saying, Sir, that the government have acted improperly in this entire incident. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism, did he rise on a point of order. MR. HICKEY: A point of personal privilege, Your Honour. I have sat and I have listened to this charade for the last half hour now.

I was the Minister of Transportation and Communications for most of the period of time which concerned itself with this particular project. I wonder,with Your Honour's permission,if I could offer the information to the Leader of the Opposition. He is labouring to bring forth a mountain again and he is not going to bring forth even a mouse if I am permitted to give the information. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Minister of Tourism rose on what he called a point of privilege. In making a few remarks he wondered if he would be permitted to explain something.

The Chair submits that the honourable Minister of Tourism does not have a point of privilege and can only be permitted to continue by leave of the House. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I know for my

part I am not the least bit prepared to give the honourable Minister of Tourism leave unless, Sir, the govermnent - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS : - unless, Sir, the government will agree to allow a debate on the matter today~if need be,and if not,tomorrow. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 5595

April 30, 1975 Tape No, 1925 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair feels then that the honourable · Minister ef Tourism certainly ~oes not have leave to make an explanation as to this matter. The honourable Minister of Transporation and Communications. MR. ROUSSEAU: Look, Mr. Speaker, if I may on a point of order,or on a point of clarification, You know, there are two departments involved in this, There is nothing that we want to hide. I would like to consult with my honourable colleague, Youknow,the information - you know the suggestion that there is a scandal there is - AN HON. MEMBER: Scandalous, MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order - MR. ROUSSEAU: You know,and nobody here is saying that we are not prepared, Mr. Chairman - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: Nobody here is saying that we are not prepared, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! MR, ROUSSEAU: I am on to a point of order right now, MR. ROBERTS: Oh, you said a point of order or a point of something else. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair permitted the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If honourable members persist in interrupting then the Chair suggests that perhaps they can leave, SOME HON, MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SP~AKER: Order, please: MR. NEARY: Well, I am not asking a question. MR, SPEAKER: I wonder if honourable members to my right and to my left are deliberately ignoring calls from the Chair. If they are the Chair will certainly name them. AN HON. MEMBER: Sir, you had better get the Sergeant to speak to the Leader of the Opposition. MR, SPEAKER: If honourable members were quiet then they would hear what is 5596

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1925 NM - 2 being said. MR. ROUSSEAU: How is the Civil Service, how are they involved in the scandal? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege, Sir.­ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: To a point of personal privilege, Sir, the honourable the Minister of Transporation just accused me in this House of having - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: - naving accused me, Mr. Speaker, of having accused any or a number of Civil Servants of being involved in a scandal. Now to begin with that word - AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: To begin with, Sir, that word is not parliamentary, Secondly, Sir, the minister should know, having drawn the Queen's salary for two years as a minister, any actions taken by public servants are answered for by ministers. He is the minister responsible for Transportation and Communications. Any actions which he or his officials may or may not have taken are his responsibility and furthermore to that point, Mr.

Speaker, I would again repeat that it is the minister who has hidden behind the skirts of a federal-provincial committee, I would ask, Mr, Speaker, that the minister be directed to withdraw that remark and to apologize. I made no accusations. I merely wanted to get the truth. He seems to be trying to hide it, MR. BARRY: To that point of privilege, ~•r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.

BARRY: To the contrary, the honourable Leader of the Opposition did make not only insinuations, innuendoes, he also directly accused government in this case,and the minister in particular, of engaging in what he labelled a scandal. However, when the information was to be given by the honourable Minister of Toucism, he did not want to hear it. Now I submit that that point of privilege is completely spurious, unnecessary and should 5597

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1925 NM - 3 be totally ignored. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please( A few moments ago the Chair was trying to get honourable members to remain quiet and perhaps this is a good · reason why honourable members should remain quiet when a member is trying to speak. There were several members to my left and to my ripht talking across the House and comments allegedly made by the Minister of Transportation and Communications to the honourable Leader of the Opposition certainly escaped the ears of the Chair. Perhaps that was the reason why.

The Chair feels that this matter is now over with and any comments made are merely differences of opinion between honourable members. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, before we go on to Orders of the Day, I move that when the House adjourns at six this evening it adjourn until tomorrow Thursday, May 1, at ten o'clock in the morning. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that when the House do adjourn at six o'clock it adjourn until tomorrow, Thursday at ten o'clock, Carried.

It being Private Members' Day we continue with motion five as it appears on today's Order Paper.I think debate was adjourned by the honourable Member for Bell Island last day and he has twenty minutes left to speak. MR, NEARY: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Mr. Speaker, my honourable colleague to my right here, the Member for Bonavista North informs me I have ten minutes because we are leaving for Bonavista shortly,so I am not going to hang her down, Sir. 'D CAPT. WINSOR: You can have an extension. MR. NEARY: But .Mr.

Speaker, last week when I was dealing with this matter, Sir, I spent a great deal of time talking about the behaviour and the action of the three honourable gentlemen who apparently threatened to resign because of this,what they consider to be a serious matter. Now I also mention, Sir, if honourable members will remember, I listed all the members who have either resigned or threatened to resign over simiiar matters in the last two or three years. And believe it or not, 5598

April 30, 1975 Tape no. 1926 Page 1 - mw I mentioned the Minister of Health. I said last week, last Wednesday, I said, the Minister of Health had threatened on a n1D11ber of occasions to resign and lo and behold, the day before yesterday, if the Premier did not come into this House Monday morning and announce the minister's resignation, So the member for Bonavista South has threatened to resign over issues similar to this one, the member for St. John's South, the member for St, John's North. The member for St. John's East. We are not quite sure whether he got the flick or whether he resigned.

It is a matter of opinion, Sir, between two honourable gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, Now, Sir, the member for St. John's East, who has been most vocal about this matter and most critical of the government did not have the courage of his convictions. CAPT. wmNSOR: Did you mention the member for St. John's South? MR. NEARY: Yes, I mentioned the member for St. John's South, But the member for St. John's East, Sir, especially did not have the courage to go all the way and to come across the House to separate himself from the party. If he disagreed with the Premier - AN HON. MEMBER: And lrlt with you.

MR. NEARY: No, Sir, not necessarily sit with me, Maybe he could go and sit with the People's Reform Party when it is formed,or sit with my colleague, the Leader of the New Labrador Party 1or sit independently. MR: SIMMONS: He could start his own party, MR. NEARY: He could have started his own party. But, Sir, he did not have the courage of his convictions. MR. SIMMONS: He could even start a Tory Party. MR. NEARY: The honourable member appears to be too cowardly to go all the way. Now, Sir - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair already today has reminded the Hon, Leader of the Opposition about the use of the word, cowardly. MR. NEARY: Your Honour, I did not say, Sir, that the member was too 5599

April 30, 1975 Tape no. 1916 Page 2 - mw cowardly, and I do not know if this is parliamentary, I need Your Honour's guidance. I said, the · member appears to be too cowardly to go all the way. MR. SPEAKER: The member is saying the same thing really, and is just changing the words around somewhat. MR.. MARSHALL: Mr, Speaker, on a point of order. MR. NEARY: If it is unparliamentary, Sir, I withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The Hon. Member for St. John's East on a point of order, I think what the Hon.

Member for Bell Island means actually is not that I was too cowardly to go over on the other side but really that I have not quite got the stomach to go over on the other side. MR.. NEARY: The honourable member, Sir, must have a pretty strong stomach where he is located now, because this was one of the punishments, one of the punishments, Sir. The seating arrangement was one of the penalties - MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: MR, NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order, please! - that was imposed on the honourable - Order, please!

The Chair fails to see the relationship between this particular motion and the amendment and to the seating plan in this House of Assembly. MR.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, so what did the honourable member do? The honourable member, Sir, did not have the courage to separate himself from the leader and from the honourable gentleman who he was afraid was going to get ~m into trouble. He did not have the courage to go all the way. So what did he do?

He moved out and stayed on that side of the House, Sir, and then in order to sort of satisfy his own conscience, he brought in an amendment to a motion brought in by my colleague, the member for Hermitage, and the amendment, Sir, reads as follows in case honourable members have forgotten what it is all about: This House endorses the government in its expressed policy to call open public tenders for all public works, whether such 5600

April 30, 1975 Tape no. 1926 Page 3 - mw public works are affected pursuant to long-term leases, the purchase agreement or otherwise. And this House further urges the government to cause buildings needed for additional acco111Dodation of the public service to be constructed upon Confederation Building grounds. Now, Sir, therein I would say lies the reason, the real reason for this amendment, the last part. The member says that if this amendment is carried by the House unanimously that he urges the government, instead of going out and putting up - Mr.

Speaker, I do not know, I get a drone, Sir, a hum in the House, I can hardly hear myself talking. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair feels, too, that there is maybe a little too much noise in the corridors. MR. NF.ARY: I got to shout, Sir. Get the &evernment members, Sir, tell them to go down to the tavern or go in their common room, HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Why? Are there two different places? HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the member hopes, through this motion, to be able to appease his own conscience by putting the members on either of the House in the difficult position, in the embarrassing position to having to vote in favour of this motion, this amendment to the motion, because it has motherhood overtones. And in so doing the member is hoping to accomplish through the backdoor what he could not do through the front door.

He is hoping to get a vote on this little, innocent recommendation that will put the government in a strait jacket as far as - that is right, Sir, he is nodding his approval, he is saying, yes - that will handcuff the government that if this motion is approved unanimously by the House that the government will npt be able to make any deals whether it is with Craig Dobbin or anybody else. But, Sir, but in trying in accomplish that and in trying to accomplish what the member could not accomplish through his resignation or by being flicked out of the cabinet, he is trying 5601

April 30, 1975 Tape 1927 (Afternoon) PK - 1 to accomplish it in another way, but in so doing, Sir, is verv wishy-washy in his wording. Because if the member was genuine and sincere in what he was trying to accomnlish, and that is to force the government to expand Confederation Building or put office buildings here on the grounds of Confederation Building, if the member was ,;;incere and genuine in that attempt then he ,,,ould use stronger languap,e.

But all he is doing is r,:lving the Premier and the f!.Overnment a little flick on the wrist in saying that the House if they pass this motion will urge the government. l•'ell, Sir, I am going to move an amendment - AN HON. ME'IBF.R: Hear: Fear! MR. NF.ARY: - to my honourahle and learned friend's amendment. AN l-l0N. MmIBER: Hear: Hear! ~ - ·· 'MR. NF.ARY: I am r,oinr, to move an amendment to th~ amendment, Sir, called a sub-amendment.I suppose,under the rules of the House. Re It Resolved, 1-1r.

Speaker, that the word 'urges'' he iatricken from the amendment and substituted with the word 'directs', so that the amendment to the amendment or the sub--amendment would read as follows: That this House endorses the government in its expre:c;sed policy to call open tenders for all nublic works; and whether such public works are effected pursuant to lonr, term leases,purchase agreements or otherwise, and this House further direct:,; the government to cause buildings needed for arlditional accommodation of the nublic service to be constructed upon Confederation Building grounds. nR. SPF..AKER: Order, please!

The Chair has certain reservations about something pertaining to that amendment so t will recess the House for a few minutes to take a look at it. AN HON. ME}IBER: Hear! Hear! The House recessed. MR. SPF.AKER : Order, please! The Chair is willing to hear argument ~·1th regards to the amendment, the sub-amendment I sunrose. The Hon. '"1ember for St. John's East. NR. ~ARSHALL: Well, Mr. Speaker, I might just pass this out to you for Your Honour, as far as I am concerned the word 'urges' is in effect the same as 'directs' • But with the greatest respect 5602

April 30, 1975 Tape 1927 (Afternoon) to the Member for Bell Island,which is not the same respect that he reciprocates over here, I wonder whether the - I will just put this for Your Honour's consideration that the word 'direct' would appear to me to require the expenditure of money and make a definite requirement with respect to the expenditure of money that a private ~ember 's resolution is not allowed. As I say,I feel the word - AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. >IB.. 'MARSHALL: - you know, I mean they can get picayune with tqeir wording all they want to, but I feel that the word 'urges' myself really accomplishes the same end anvway. But the word 'directs' I would think contrary to uarliamentary practice in that it re"uires the expenditure of money. However I hasten to add that I r,,ould - in my understanding the word 'urges' has the same import in my poor mind as the word 'directs' ' any way. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: If I may to the point.

My understanding is that PK - 2 mv colleague has in effect moved that the •"Ord 'direct' be substituted for the word 'urges' in the amendment moved by the honourable gentleman from St. John's East. Now, Sir, with great respect I do not think the word 'urge' and the word 'direct ' are the same word at all. I think they are alternate. The word direct' is much stronger than the word 'urge' and it would give the House an opportunity to record a far different feeling.

And I think that is the first point, Sir, in looking at a sub-amendment or an amendment whether it, you know, offers what amounts to an alternate proposition, one that cannot be achieved by negating the matter to be voted upon, i.e., the amendment itself. Well, Sir, obviously putting the word 'direct' in instead of the word 'urge' is not something that could be achieved by a simple vote in the negative. It does not expand it. It just refines it and presents an alternate. 5603

Aoril 30, 1975 Taoe 1927 (Afternoon) PK - 3 The second point as I understand it, the second objection taken, Sir, is that the word 'direct' would require the expenditure of funds, Sir. And if that is so, if this motion ~•ould reC1uire the expenditure of funds then, Sir, it ,1ould be out of order. Now, Sir, to that I say that the honourable gentleman from St.

John's East I do not think can carry his point hecause he says it is out of order hecause 'direct' requires the expenditure of funds, and 'then he says that 'urge' as the same effect as 'direct', and yet he himself oroposed a motion that had the word 'urge' in it. Sir, this motion as amended, if the amendment were to l>e accepted, if sub-amendment..1 am sorry:were to be accepted and the amendment were to carry the motion would not require the expenditure of auy IIPney by the government.

It would merely record the House's opinion that any accommodation which is provided, any additional accommodation to be provided in the puhlic service should he built here upon the Confederation Building grounds and not elsewhere around St. John's or for that matter anywhere else. MR, MARSHALL: Just before Your Honour leaves the Chair to consider the matter,I would like to point out that I did not raise- the Hon. Leader of the O,,position was not in the Chamber at the time - I did not raise the point that it was a direct negative because I feel it is one in the same thing.

But I think the terminology is important hecause the word 'direct' is imperative and consequently it would require the expenditure of money. And as I say the word 'urges' accomplishes the same thinf, with other words. And I would just like to point out that I consider the word 'urges' to be ouite satisfactory and it does exactly the same thing as the word 'direct' but in the realm of the parliamentary precedence. MR. SPEAKF.R: The Chair will now recess - MR, ROBF.RTS: If I may say - MR. SPEAKER: The Hon, Leader of the Opposition. MR, ROBERTS: I did not mean to do the gentleman from St. John's East any disservice.

I was listening but I was in a conversation outside, and if I misheard him I aµologize to him. I was merely stating the general case that often is stated against amendments or sub-amendments. 5604

,. Sir, the word 'direct' in this context as Your Honour I am sure ~n.11 agree when looking at the motion as it would have been ~nded if my colleague's am!!ndment is accepted that IIIDtion - the word 'direct' does not require the expenditure of any mqney at all because the motion would be to cause buildings needed for additi~l aceo111111Pdation, Sir. It would be up to the goverilment to determine whether any additional accommodat ion is needed or not. There is nothing in the motion which says that further acc01111110dation is needed.

It merely says, Sir, if the government decides further ac.c01111110dation is needed then that accommodation shall be provided here. The '1£' Sir, is entirely within control of the government. The 'if' is a matter that would require the ezpenditure of funds. I submit, Mr, Speaker, that, you know, the amendment - the sub-amendment to the 11111endment is quite in order. MR. SPEAKKR: The House will recess for a few minutes to consider the sub-amendment. The Hc;,use recessed. 5605

April .so 1975 Tape no. 1928 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I wonder if some honourable member would direct the gentleman in the corridor there to my left to keep the noise down to a dull roar. MR. ROBERTS: Well said, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour's authority runs through the precincts of the House. You could have them dragged before the bar and beheaded • MR. SPEAKER: The Chair has considered the sub-amendment as proposed by the Hon.

Member for Bell Island and certainly feels that the word 'directs' if accepted, would direct government to an expenditure of money and thus to rule the sub-amendment out of order. MR. NEARY: the time - AN HON, MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, how much time do I have left? I presume (Inaudible). Order, pleaae! I still have about fifteen minutes, I believe. I presume that time will not be deducted from my speaking. MR. SPEAKER: The time the House was just recessed will not be deducted from the honourable member's time. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly agree, Sir, that any future acco111111odations for public servants should be built here on the grounds of Confederation Building. Confederation Building should be either expanded or a new building, Sir, connected by either an underground tunnel or an overhead tunnel should be built near Confederation Building, possibly over here, Sir, on this vacant lot. The plans have already been made, Sir. The plans were made and the foundation was laid by the former administration. It is only a matter of dusting off, taking the plans off the shelf, dusting off the plans and calling public tenders. AN HON.

M»lBERS: The files are gone, MR. NEARY: No, Sir, the files are not gone. Well the plans are still there. You can get the plans from the company who built this building 5606

April ..so, 1975 Tape no. 1928 Page 2 - mw in New York. Possibly my colleague, my learned friend. the Minister of Fisheries may be able to get a set of the plans. But, Sir, the plans are available and, Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree without reservation, Sir, without any hesitation, that any accommodation to house the -public service in the future should be constructed here on the grounds of Confederation Building. And, Mr. Speaker. I still think, Sir, that an amendment should be made to this motion because it is so wishy-washy. And I would like to make the following sub-amendment, Sir, following amendment to the amendment.

Be it resolved that the word.'urges' be stricken from the amendment and substituted with the word 'directs'. so that the amendment to the amendment would now reads as follows: - MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR . NEARY: MR. ~OBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: KR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: You cannot have direct. Oh. Rule that out. All right, It would read, states its view. Oh yes, okay, Sir.

That after the word. 'urges' - The word 'urges' should be struck out. - be struck out - Urges be struck. - and that this House further - States. - states its view that any additional accommodation needed for the public service must be constructed upon Confederation Building grounds. And I have a copy of the amendment for Your Honour. MR. NEARY: MR.ROBERTS MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry my writing is bad. Order, please! The Chair will have to recess for that one too. It has some thoughts about the exactness of that particular wording. MR. ROBERTS: Would, Your Honour, like to hear any argument on it? 5607

April 30, 1975 Tape 1929 (afternoon) rn-1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair after consultation with the table in discussing the sub-amendment finds that the sub-amendment :Is in order. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So, the amendment now, Sir, h will be,

be it resolved that the word urges he stricken from the amendment and substituted with the following, that the House further records its view that any additional accommodation for the public service must be constructed upon the grounds of Confederation Building. Now, Sir, I think this amendment now, the amendment to the amendment,makes more sense. It makes a great deal of sense., Now, Sir, if the House votes in favor of the sub-amendment, the amendment to the amendment, then the government has no cho:fce.

The House is directing the government that if they should require accommodations for public servants in the future, if they should take the decision to go ahead to provide additional accommodations, that it is the view ,, of this House that the members of the House feel and direct the government once they take this decis:fon to either enlarge Confeilerat:fon Build:fng or put up a new building on the grounds of Confederation Ruilding. Now, Sir, I have no doubt at all that this amendment to the amendment to the motion, will get the unanimous approval of the House.

At least, Sir, I would think that if the Member for St. John's South and St. -John's North and the Member for St.

John's East who is in trouble enough now with his colleagues over the first amendment, if they are genuine and sincere, Sir, if they do not want to see any whee~ing and dealing done outside, if they are interested in providing service to the people of this Province, that they will vote, they above any other members of this House ~ecause of the fuss that they have kicked up, because of the noise they have made about this issue, because of the importance that they have placed on this matter, that they above anyone else, Sir, will vote in favor of this sub-amendment because, Sir, it makes a great deal of sense :Indeed to have all our government departments concentrated in one area.

As it stands now, Mr. Speaker, ordinary people of this Province who come in from outside of St. John's who live beyond the Overpass who come into St. John's,are running around St. John's trying to find 5608

Tape 1929 (afternoon) IB-2 ministers, -trying ta find government departments, trying to find government offic1 .als, trying to find this agency of government, that agency of gove _rn111ent, running around, Sir, like roosters with their heads cut off . They come up to Confederation Building. The obvio .lJS place for thein to go· the moment they see the lights of St, Jo_hn 's, the ol\vious place to head for is Confederation Building.

When they arrive in the lobby of Confederation Building, nine chances out of ten they at:e told by the security people down in the lobby that this department or tl)at department or this minister or that member or this official or that agency of the provincial government is no longer in this building ~ut is down at say, the Phillip Place. So, that means that poot: ordinary person, Sir, then ha.s to, if he does not have tran~ortation, he either has to go down to the back door and take the bus or - AN HONOtIBABLE MEMBER: What bus? MR. NEARY: The bus at the back door, the St.

John's Transportation Company down at the back door. AN HONOURABLE l'1EMBF.R: ll.eirl's bus. MR. NEARY: No, it is not Reid's bus, not m;y friend from Port de G:rave, the Member for J\llliper Stump. "No, Sir. He would have to go down if he does not have transportation. First he would have to go on shank,' s mare, walk over 5609

April 30, 1975. Tape 193(1 RH - 1 to the Philip Building, take the bus or call up a friend or a relative in St. John's, inconvenience them and get them to come over and pick them up or he would have to hire a taxi. I would submit, Sir, that the average person in this Province, the ordinary person who comes into this Building cannot afford to hire a taxi. So, they either have to get the bus, go it on shank's mare or call up a friend or relative to take them over there and then when they get there, Mr.

Speaker, nine chances out of ten they are told that the government department, the officials, the minister or the member they are looking for has now been relocated in the Crosbie Building over on Crosbie Road. This has happened, "Mr.Speaker. Or over in the Viking Building over on Crosbie Road, not in the - what is the name of that shipping company? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Not in the Chimo Building. Do we have any government departments in the Chimo Building? We do not have any in the Chimo Building, I do not think.

But they would either have to go over to the Viking Building or over to the Crosbie Building on Crosbie Road i111111ediately behind Carnell's Funeral Home. So, that would involve another hour or so, more expense, more inconvenience and when they get over there they probably have to wait a half an hour or an hour before they can get to see whoever they wanted to see. By that time, Sir; it is coffee break or the newspaper has arrived and the day is shot and they have to go back home disappointed, unable to do their business only to have to return to St.

John's a second or a third or a fourth time in order to transact maybe in most cases just a simple piece of business with some government department. Now, Sir, this is not good enough. This is a very strong argument, Sir, in my opinion, for this Rouse to direct the government, although I was not allowed to put that word in my motion, Sir, but certainly with the way the motion is amended,the amendment is amended now the government will certainly get the message. I would 5610

April 30, 1975. Tape 1930 hope, Sir, that we could have directed the government if they are going to provide additional space for the public service that it RH - 2 he done here on the grounds of Confederation Building so that when the ordinary person, Sir, of this Province comes into St. John's from the outports, from the outlying areas from around the bay that he will come straight to the Confederation Building and then within a matter of minutes be funnelled off to whatever department of government, whatever minister, whatever official, whatever member he wants to see.

This whole complicated situation now, Sir, that has seen government departments scattered all over St. John's is the direct result of restructuring that was carried out by this administration back some three years ago in their first year in office. Now, Hr.

Speaker, what other reason should there be apart from the convenience of the people who wish to transact business with the government,apart from the convenience of these people, what other reason should there be for merely eitpanding Confederation Building or putting up a new building linked to Confederation, a twin building if you like, linked to Confederation Building by a tunnel. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Called Neary. MR. NF.ARY: Well, you could call it that, Sir. I need a monument erected to me womewhere in the Province. I cannot call the hospital over on Bell Island after me because it is already named.

But, Sir, the other reason is an economical one. Sir, it is only ordinary simple economics that it would cost less, it would cost the government less for heat, it would cost the government less for lights, it would cost the government less for security, it would cost the government less for parking, it would cost the government less for snow clearing, it would cost the government less, Sir, to expand Confederation Building or put up a new building here adjoining Confederation Building.

It would cost the government less than paying out these huge rents that are being paid out now to landlords acattered all over the, all ov~r ~eel's little acre, hell's half acre. 5611

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1931 NM - 1 Sir, the honourable the Premier sometime ago talked about a new House of Assembly, Now, Sir, I do not know whether the honourable the Premier was serious or not when he raised this matter, he said that this present House,and this suggestion I must confess,was made before they gerrymandered the districts, this suggestion was made, Sir, even when we had forty-two members in this honourable House.

The Premier said the House of Assembly was too small and the honourable the Premier felt that if we expanded Confederation Building, or put up a new building, that we should include in the plans a new House of Assembly. MR. EVANS: Too bad you will not be there. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you abdicating - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not advocating that we do that, Sir . As a matter of fact, in that particular debate that I referred to, the gerrymandering debate, I suggested that the number of members in the House of Assembly be reduced and not increased, because of these days of galloping inflation.

AN HON • MEMBER: Reduce it by one. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, reduce it by five or six or seven. There is no need of fifty-one members in this honourable House. And so, Mr. Speaker, I am not in agreement, Sir, that included in any plans should be a new House of Assembly, not especially in these days of galloping inflation, when there are too many other things that need to be done, when there are too many other things that should get top priority. Our number one priority should not be building a luxurious House of Assembly with wall to wall carpeting and all kinds of push buttons and gadgets and- AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, NEARY: I am expected in Bonavista by eight o'clock tonight and I do not know if my colleague breaks the speed limits or not. MR. EVANS: There are quite a few wind bags over there as well. MR. NEARY: But, Sir ·, we will get there. 5612

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1931 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN RON. MEMBER: No special dispensation. MR. NEARY: No special dispensation, but Sir, and - so at this moment, Sir, I do not believe that this should be used as one of the arguments for expanding Confederation Building or putting up a new building on the grounds of Confederation Building. This should not be used as one of the arguments. That is the Premier again daydreaming, Sir, having illusions of grandeur. And so, Mr.

Speaker, while there is great need, Sir, with the way the public service is being built up in the last three years, with the number of Crown Corporations, government agencies that we have now, Sir, just about every ounce of space in the City of St. John's is being utilized by the present administration and at rents, Sir, that would make the hair stand straight on your head in some cases. I would like to see every rental agreement in the City of St. John's and in other parts of this Province, but especially in the City of St.

John's, tabled in this honourable House, Philip Place, Sir, included, Crosbie Building on Crosbie Road, the VikinR Building, what other buildings? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: What one? AN HON. MEMBER: The Crosbie one. MR. NEARY: The Crosbie Building, Sir, it would put some of the rentals charred, Sir, would put the liquor store leases to shame, Put them to shame. A.~ HON, MEMBER: I do not agree with you, MR. NEARY: Well I agree with it.

I do not agree with the rentals, now mind you, but I agree with my statement, otherwise I would not make it, Mr, Speaker, all the agreements that have been entered into in the last three years, Sir, to rent office space for government agencies, Crown Corporations, government departments, ministers, members of the House, should be tabled in this House, Sir, MR. HICKEY: The only thing is wrong with you people over there is you have a bad mind, 5613

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1931 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: No, Sir, we have not got a bad mind. Mr. Speaker, how can a member - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, how can a member say that we have a bad mind when all we are doing is asking - MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - is asking to have the information tabled so that we can scrutinize it, so that we can go through it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: No, Sir, no witch hunt,Sir, not a judicial enqui~y, not a royal commission, just Sir, in accordance with the Standing Rules of the House, in accordance with traditional procedure in the House, table all the rental agreements. Why not? AN HON. MEMBER: That is what they always did. MR, HICKEY: That is why you fellows tabled everything. MR. NEARY: But, Mr. Speaker, this is the honourable crowd that were going to change all that. MR. ROWE: That is right. AN RON. MEMBER: We have changed it. MR. NEARY: They have changed it, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, I remember when the honourable James Greene was Leader of the Opposition in this House and I remember, Sir, when the honourable Minister of Education, present Minister of Education, was Leader of the Opposition in this House and when the honourable Minister of Social Services was Actin -g Leader of the Opposition and when the honourable former Mayor of Corner Brook was Leader of the Opposition, all these honourable gentlemen, Sir, argued at one time or another that all government 5614

April 30, 1975 Tape 1932 (afternoon) IB-1 departments should be concentrated in one area of the city and not scatterPd all over St. John's. I do not know but my good friend the Member for St. John's East Extern often made that suggestion in this honourable House himself. The honourable member was frustrated on more than one occas:loi:i. 11.fR. HICKEY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. MR. HICKEY: Rut you did such a bad job of providing space. ~- NEARY: But, Sir, we - Mr. Speaker, here is what we d:ld, here is what Joey did. Joey, Sir, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 1'1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! l"R.

NEARY: - one night had this great vision. Joey had this great vision of providing one building to house all the public servants in Newfoundland, this great dream of a Confederation Building. AN HONOURABLE MEMBFP: There is nothing wrong with it. MR. NEARY: There is nothing wrong with it, Sir. And, Mr. Speaker, the honourable the Premier of that day wanted to put Confederation Ruilding - A,'1 HONOlTRAJILE MEMJIER: In Harbour Grace. MR. NFARY: all - No, Sir, wanted to put it up on a hill as he wanted to put Mt>. EVANS: And you wanted it on Bell Island. MR.

NEARY: - all public buildings in Newfoundland he felt should be up on a hill with lights shining on them so that the people who paid for these huildings could see wh~t they were paying for. AN HONOURABLE MEMJIER: The light is shining on them now. MR. NEARY: So he came out at that time, Mr, Speaker, he came out here in what was at that time a wilderness area - this was nothing but trees, not even the new part of St. John's was there then. Everybody said, well,now for sure Joey is gone mad. He is cracked. He is gone off his head. AN HONOllRAJILE MEMRER; Inaudible. MR.

NF.ARY: Going to put this beautiful building out in the sticks, 5615

April 30, l<J7S Tape l<J32 (afternoon) out in the country. The man is mad. MR. EVANS: Do you bel:l.eve H now? Tll-2 MR. NEARY: Sir, I remember ~rhen Confederation Building was openinB, on opening day, the first sesston of this honourable House. The Leader of the Opposition was the honourable James J. rreenP, F.squit"e, n.r., now the president of the Tory Party in Newfoundland. J remember, Sir, - now there was supposed to he no politics on opening day, Traditionally there was supposed to he no politics although that tradition appanmtly has been changing over the last few years. so~ HONOURAllLF MEMBERS: Inaudible.

MR. NEARY: The first time, Sir, that that tradition was brnken in this honourable House, it was broken hy the honourable James J. Greene who was Leader of the Opposition, who stood on opening day and condemned former Premier Smallwood and the administration for spending the taxpayers money to put this beautiful building out in the woods, in the sticks. Nobody could get out here. CAPT. WINSOR: He referred to it as our mortgaged home. MR. NEARY: Our mortgaged home he referred to it. My honourable friend was sitting in the House that day, our mortgaged home.

The man is crazy, he said, look, how are the people going to get out here? No bus service. No parking space. Out in the ~•oods, in the sticks. What foresight Mr. Smallwood must have hacl, Sir, not only in thi's matter but all other matters in this Province. Mr. r.reene and all the other people who criticized Confederation Building were proven wrong in a very short time. Now, Sir, you do not have room up here to park your car. There is no parking space up here, and Confederation Building in a matter of five or six years was bursting at the seams. AN HONOURABLE MEMRER: What is the point? MR.

NEARY: The point is this, Sir, that we made a courageous and valiant attempt to house all the public servants under one roof so that the people from the ourports, from the outlying areas when they came into St. John's would not have to go to the expense of hirinr, taxis and travelling arouncl St. John's on foot and in huses,inconvenienced 1 561ti

Tape 1932 (afternoon) 1B-3 to find a minister or some government department that was hid away somewhere in fi!ome dark little dingy building outside of Confederation Building. SOME l!ONOURARLE ~mERS: Inaudible. "'1t. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the former Premier of this Province, Sir., then went to t'lite trouble to have plans drawn up. Ail a matter of fact when Confederation Building was constru.cted, Sir, :It was constructed with the intention in m1.nd of making provision for expansion, These two wings, Sir, that you see, these two low wings.

Confederation Building is up like this and then you have the observation tower 11cnd there are two wings going off. Well, Sir, both of these wings are the foundation on which to build up. That is the way it was planned, Mr. Speaker, SOMF. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Inaudible. ~fR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, and not only that, Mr. Speaker, plans were made. Plans are in Confederation Building. A model was p~t on display down in the lobby_. AN 110NOURABLE ?-mmER: Not up, out. MR. NEAFY: Well, out, up. 561 -/

April 30, 1975 Tape no. 1933 Page 1 - mw But, Sir, my understanding was that you could build up - AN HON. MEMBER: Extend. MR. NEARY: Extend Confederation Building, build out, up, sideways, anyway you wanted to, Sir. The foundation was laid. And Mr. Smallwood and the administration of that time, Sir, said that even though we are forced temporarily to go out to find office space for our p~blic servants in other parts of St. John's, there would only be short-term leases, no longer-term leases, because the former administration had committed itself to expand Confederation Building.

That was a commitment, Sir, that was made to the people of this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, Sir, public tenders would be called. And so, Mr. Speaker , we are now get ting right back to square one. We are getting back, Sir, - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). - we are getting back - Order, please! - we are getting back to the thinking, to the philosophy, to the ideology of an administration, Sir, that developed this idea, this concept of having all the public service under one roof. About how long ago? Was it fourteen or fifteen years ago? AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. NEARY: About fifteen years ago. And· it is a good sound policy, Sir. It is, and I congratulate the member for St, John's East in recommending that this is the course of action that the government take, I am all for it, Sir, But the only thing is, Sir, that the member in making his amendment was a bit wishy-washy because he felt, Sir, that he was in trouble enough with the leader of the party and his colleagues. MR. DOODY: If you are going to Bonavista you had better get going. MR. NEARY: Yes, I know, Sir, and we will get there eventually.

It will only take us three hours to drive down there. I am prepared to give up my supper this evening. But, Sir, my learned friend - MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). 5618

Arpil 30, 1975 Tape no. 1933 Page 2 - 111W AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). M? .• NEARY: I am in demand. My learned friend was too wishy-washy. My learned friend was afraid that he was going to further offend the leader of the party and his former colleagues in cabinet. He had already gotten a flick. They already had a caucus and disciplined the honourable member. MR.REID: How can the member do any more damage? MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. REID: How can the mE!lllber do any more damage? MR. NEARY:The Hon.

Minister of Rural Development, Sir, who was so naive , in his simplicity asked me, how can the mE!lllber do any more damage? Well, Sir, here is how the member can do more damage. By having this House instruct the government to construct any future accommodations that they may need for the public service to construct them here on the grounds of Confederation Building . That is how 1IIY honourable colleague is trying to get back without saying so indirectly through the backdoor at the administration for giving him the flick. He is saying, put the accommodations here on the grounds of Confederation Building.

And if the House passes that, if the Minister of Rural Development, in his simplicity, in his naivety, if he votes against the sub-amendment and votes in favour of the amendment, then what the minister is doing is putting himself in a strait jacket. MR. REID: Oh, guaranteed. MR. NEARY: Because he can no longer then go out, join his colleagues and go out and give contracts to anybody to build other than on the grounds of Confederation Building. it straight now? AN HON. MEMBER: The Premier has got - MR. NEARY : I would submit , Sir , - MR. REID: (Inaudible). 5619 Okay, has the minister got

April 30, 1975 Tape no. 1933 Page 3 - mw MR, NEAitY: I would suggest, Sir, that the go.vernment - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, the government will not vote in favour of the sub-am~dment or the amendmellt. And then my learned friend is going to be in a tight spot. My honourable friend is going to be backed up in the corner, ~at does he do then·:if they vote against his amendment? What he will say then, Sir, is, oh, this is democracy at work, I made my point. I was not flung out of the party. The Premier w:tll .say, oh, this is democracy.

Ypu can have different views than the adlltinist .ration and you do not have to leave the party . Oh, Sir, wbat nonsense .- MR.. EVANS: All you need was Joey's sympathy. MR.. :NEARY: -what 5620

ft_pril 30, 1975. Tape 1934 RH - 1 nonsense. How wishy w~shy can you get, Sir! How soft, Mr. Speaker, how soft can you get and still stay in within the framework of that party? Ai~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, it will b~ very interesting indeed to see how honourable members are going to vote on this sub­ amendment. Do they or do they not agree with the Rouse, the elected re~resentatives of the people recording its view and telling the government, look, Mr.

Government, if you need additional accoJ11111odations for the public service please construct them here on the grounds of Confederation Building. It l-1ill be interesting to see how the Member for St. John's East is going to vote on this matter. Will he be consistent? Will he be sincere? Will he become a hero? Tune in tomorrow, no, next week at the same time, Sir, to see the continuing story of - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: 'MR. NEARY: No, Sir. ?-IR. EVANS: Inaudible. Inaudible. MR.

NF~~: - of can a man who once had convictions, ever have convictions ar,ain or will he stand on his head, will he do the Hi~hland Fling, will he do the hand springs, will he do political gymnastics. Tune in next weclc for the next episode in the life of the honourable Member for St. John's East brought to you by Ex Lax. Ex Lax presents t~e Member for St. John's East. AN HONOURABLE MEMBERi It is not only Ex Lax that acts that way. 1f.P . • NEARY: Well , Sir, Mr. Speaker, it is going to be very, very interesting indeed,and I do not think, Sir, somehow or other that the debate is going to wind up today.

The member has the right, no, he does not have the right now because we are on the sub-amendment, the member has the right t o speak again hut only to the sub-amendment, t hP amendment to the amendment, Sir, which, in my opinion , is a good one and it will eliminate entirely, Sir, any wheeling and dealing. 5621

April 30, 1975. Tape 1934 RH - 2 It will eliminate any possibility of the government going out and rna!dnr, sweetheart agreements with anybody. It will eliminate all this. AN HONOURABLE !1EMBER: I get the impression you do not trust us. MR. NEARY: Do not trust who? AN HONOURABLE MP.IBER: Inaudible. ------ MR.· NFARY: Sir, a very good reason for not trusting the minister, for not trusting the minister in the government. !-Ir. Speaker, let me say this, let me say this, Sir, - AN HONOURABLE l-'EMBER: Inaudihle. ----- lo!R • NF.ARY : }'.r.

Speaker, there is no criticism on my part of any of the firms or individuals who submitte<l proposals on the - AN HONOURABLE IIBMBER: The government is wrong. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, the system is wrong. The government is wrong. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No criticism on my part of any of the individuals, Sir, As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I will say this, that if a contract was awarded to construct accommodations here on the grounds of Confed­ eration Building I would like to see it go to a !lewfoundlanrler.

I woultl prefer to see it go to a Newfoundlander than to go to a firt:1 outside of Newfoundland. - Pardon? AN HONOURABLE ?~IBER: Hho would you like to see - MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I do not have any relatives in the construction business, fortunately. I would even, Sir, he glad if my honourable friend, the Old-Conflict-of-Interest were to submit a tender.

I would like to, Sir, in accordance with the sub-amendment, I woul<l like to see the 8overnment call public tenders in accordance i-1i th the Public Tendering Act that was passed by this House and then, Sir, go on and construct the facilities that are so badly needed to house an ever expanding public service right here on the grounds of ron­ federation Buildinp;. Sir, nobody can be against that. To he against that kind of proposal, Sir, is like being ap;ainst motherhood. 5622

AprfJ 30, 1975 . Tape 1934 RR - 3 A."1 UONOURABLE MF.MBER: When do we get - MR. NEARY: Pardon? A.'/ !!ONOUPABLE !-fm>IBER: When do we get it finished? MR. NEARY: When do we get what finished ? AN llONOURABLF. HE.."BP.R: Inaudible . Ml . NEARY: 1 do not know, Sir . With this crowd, Sir, you will never get it started let alone get it finished. That building, Sir, expansion to Confederation :Building or a new buildi~ here on the grounds of Confederation Building will be like every othe r project .

It will be started and finished when that honourable crowd are flicked out by the people of this Province and we start our great march forward t hat was started under the Liberal Party, the Liberal administration in this Province. 5623

April 30, 1975 Tape 1935 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. Speaker, I would submit that is probably why the Hon. Premier would like to get rid of this present House of Assembly that we are standing in here today. Because every time that you think of Confederation Building, you think of the House, you immediately identify it with Joey, like you do so many other things in Newfoundland. And t4ey would like to, Sir, to be able to remove the Joey image, the Joey :1.dentity altogether. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: That who is behind him. MR.

NEARY: And I would say, Sir, that is the reason for that foolish idea that was made - the suggestion made by the Premier sometime ago that we need a new House of Assembly. If we are going to put U? a new building - AN _HON. MEMBER: A good,strong editorial supported it too. MR._NEARY: Well, Sir, maybe so, Mr. Speaker, maybe so, but, Sir I can think of at least three or four other things, other nrojects in Newfoundland that should rank top priority than a new House of Assembly. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: HR. NEARY: I got them all listed here. You have got them all listed have you? Inaudible.

Have you got the cost of living listed? Have you got vandalism and crime listed? Have you got record unemployment listed? Have you got fish markets - markets for our fish listed1 And I could go on and on, Sir. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, I was just reminded by my colleague the Leader of the Opposition that I had to p;et to Bonavista. They are waiting for me down there, Sir. John Cabot, Sir, is down there now,I suppose, turninr, over in his grave at the very thought of this administration continuing in power for another few months. nut I will put - A.Tl! HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR.

NEARY: ----- - I will put the late John Cahot at ease tonight, Sir, I will guarantee you that. MR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! 5624

/\nril 30, 1n75 Tape 1935 (Afternoon) PK - 2 ~!R. NEARY: I will put his - MR. ROfiERTS: ~'Tl.. NEARY: He ~-Till probably cause a rebellion going down •••• -I will put his mind at ease, Sir, He has been turning over in his grave now for three years. MR. EVANS: Are you taking guns with you? HR. NEARY: But, Sir, with the great tide of Liberalism that is sweeping across this Province - AN HON. ,@IDF.R: MR. NEARY: AN HON. ~IENBER: Rear! Hear! and tonight when I make my few remarks in Bonavista - When you were Leader they Jl'R. SPEAKF.R (DUNPHY): Order, please! MR.

NEARY: - tonight John Cabot will be able to rest in peace, knowing in his heart, Mr. Speaker, that within a very short time llonavista South will come back into the Liberal fold. HON. MF.MBERS: Hear: Hear! And in this House of Assembly,in the new Confederation Building, Sir, we will have a Liberal member from that, as Rossie used to say that great and 'ietoric district of nonavista South. ~ !2_0N. MEMBER..:. MR. EVANS: MR. NEARY: - - · - - MR. OTTENHEIMER: Inaudible. Inaudible. So, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, - Inaudible. MR . NP.ARY : - in conclusion, "Mr. Speaker, IR . BARRY : '1Jt . NF.ARY: MR. SPF.

KER (DUNPHY): ~-IR. NEARY: Inaudible. - in conclusion, Mr. Speaker - Order, please! Sir, to sum up my few remarks, and I believe, Sir, I still have about ten or fifteen minutes left - "IR. ROBERTS: Forty-five minutes on the amendment. MR. NEARY: - on the amendment. AN HON. MEMBF.R: }IR. NF.ARY: - ---- - Inaudible. To sum up my few remarks, Sir, I would urge honourable r,entlemen to give very serious consideration to voting for this amendment 5625

Ar,ril 30, 1975 Tape 1935 (Afternoon) PK - 3 to the amendment, And what is the amendment to the amendment, Sir, just for those who lllAY not realize what the amendment to the amendment is? Well, Sir, the amendment to the amendment is this - it merely records the feelings of elected members in this honourable House to the government. AN HON. MEMBER: What is the purpose of it? MR. NEARY: The purpose of it - well I am coming to that. That any additional accommodation to house the public service mucl be constructed here on the grounds of Confederation Building. That is the amendment to the amendment, Sir. AN HON.

MEMBER: The amendment says that. MR. NEARY: No, the amendment does not say that. The member just did not want to further aggravate his colleagues, The Member for St. John's East did not want to further aggravate his colleagues so gave the administration a little flick on the wrist.

Well, Sir, we are prepared to go all the way and if the honourable member is genuine and sincere and does not want to appear to be hypocritical about this matter or insincere, wants to show the people of this Province that there is a little honesty in politicians, that there is a little honesty in politics then the honourable member and all honourable members on either side of this House will vote in favour of the amendment to the amendment to construct any future additional accol!Dodations that we might need to house the public service in this Province right here on the r,rounds of Confederation Building, and that would accomplish what my honourable and learned friend started out to do in the beginning.

AN RON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! 1-1R, SPEAKER (DUNPHY) The Hon. Member for Burin. MR. T. HICKMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: Mr, Speaker - Hear! Hear' • 5626

Apr i l 30 , 1975 MR. HICKMA.'l: Tape 1936 (afternoon) IB-1 This undoubtedly is going to be the longest debate in the history of this House of Assembly on a private member's motion. ''ffi . OTTF.NHEIMER: After the den turists. MR. HICK~,W: We had speeches ad nauseam, drones ad nauseam on the main resolution. Then we had that very statesmanlike amendment that challenged the imagination of the Opposition, that called forth the - I realize I cannot speak on the amendment right now - but I was very impressed with the way it called forth the tearful support of the honourable the Member for St. Rarbe North.

Ile nearly broke down he was so carried away by the amendment that we will be debating a little later on. But we are nov on this suh-amendment, this sub-amendment which really says nothing. We have not seen it yet, but as far as I can see it says very little. Hay I say at the very beginning, at the outset that to the surprise of the honourable gentlemen opposite the government will vote in its majority, you know, the majority government, the people who were elected h:, the people with a very overwhelming majority will vote against the sub-amendment. AN llONOURARLE MEt-'BEP.: The proper thing. MR.

HICKMAN: Do you think - I am wondering if the honourable the gentleman from St. Mary's feels that it is now appropriate to indicate how we are going to vote on the amendment or shoult1 that be the subject matter of the continuing debate? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICK~AN: Suspense will continue. Mr. Speaker, there have been some points made. At one point I find myself in absolute and total agreement with the honourable the Member for Rell Island. That is when he refers to the agitation that went on in the City of St. John's and only in the. City of St.

John's when thi s Confederation Building was erected. But that has been tradition. Jam told - I was not living in St. John's at the time - I am told that when Elizabeth Avenue was constructed, it was the brain child of the late Sir Rrian Dunfield, that when Elizabeth Avenue was constructed thP council of the day and other dignitaries in St. John's r~fused to go tn the official opening hecause it was a concept, that it was away beyond the wildest dreams of man, that Elizabeth Avenue would never but 5627

April 30, 1975 Tape 1936 (afternoon) IB-2 never be used. It was outside the city. Three years later with the accolades of everyone in St. John's, Sir Brian nun field received a well deserved knighthood for amongst many other things, his foresight in setting up the St. Johrt's Housing r.orpotation which again would never be occupied. But, that has been traditional. I can recall very vividly when the harbour development was starting in St. John's. Again we had statements galore coming that if these old fallen down historic wharfs were destroyed that St. John's Harbour would disappear as a commercial center.

But, lo and behold, it was done. Lo and behold, ships could still turn around in that harbour. To the surprise and chagrin of those who opposed it, the disappointment of those who opposed it, shipping in the harbour increased. Very seldom can you find these people around when you want hope, So it goes. This building served not only a worthwhile purpose, it was the kind of thing where once in a while a government has to make a decision and do it. The same sort of argument is being advanced with respect to the Harbour Arterial Road. When that vital link to the City of St.

John's is completed you will not find anyone around who opposed it. It always seems to be whenever there is any real progress imminent for our capital city for some strange reason there is always a minority of well-meaning people who want to oppose it. Fortunately people who are elected have to exercise their responsibility and proceed with what is for the greatest good for the greatest number. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am not certain at all that an extension to this Confederation Building is,heyond all reasonable doubt, the best way to provide the additional accommodation, There are some very strong arguments indeed in favor of an extension to this building. 5628

April 30, 1975 Tape no. 1937 Page 1 - mw My first reaction would be to favour it, but I do not know whether or not it would be cheaper to do it that way. I do not know if the financing can be arranged on a building that is already still the subject matter and will be for a few more years of a mortgage in favour of whoever it was built this building. I do not know these things. I do not know whether the public will be completely and better served by being in here than in a rejuvenated downtown St. John's.

I do believe that there are certain Crown Corporations that, for instance, should never - Crown Corporation is not the word - quasi judicial bodies that should never been within the confines of a provincial building. The Workmen's Compensation Board and the Board of Conmtissioners of Public Utilities, in my opininn, should not be housed in a provincial building, That concept is not new with me.

I did not dream it up today, That concept is contained in the report of the late Mr, Justice Winter on the Workmen's Compensation Act that was tabled in this House in the 1966-1967 sitting when he reconmended a separate building for the Workmen's Compensation Board, And I recall that I was a very enthusiastic supporter of that report and reconmtendation, And Mr. Clyde Wells and I were asked to get on with it, because I wanted the Board of Conmissioners of Public Utilities to go in that same building.

And I wanted to see that building down somewhere where City Hall is because most of the people who go to the Workmen's Compensation Board, who come in to see the doctor or for a further assessment stay in that part of the town and that is where it is convenient for them to get around, the same as for a lot of people who come in making applications for licences to operates taxis and buses and trucks and all that sort of thing, We were full of enthusiasm but greater powers than us intervened and iC never came to pass.

The next thing we heard they were over in Phillip Place, which was a tragic thing from the point of view of these two boards. So I do not know, Mr. Speaker, whether or not the public are better served. I do know this that there is no way that we can logically say that the public of Newfoundland are receiving adequate service today with departments of government all over the city. Whether the people 5629

April 30, 1975 Tape no, 1937 Page 2 - 111W can be best served by putting an extension on to this building, I suppose on balance one would feel that that is probably right. But I do not think it would be in the best interests of the public for the government's hands to be totally tied so that they have no choice, But do you think would happen to us then? We got to go here. Then we are in the hands of the bidders, the tenderers, the architects, the people who are going to draft the design, They got to go here. They got to go on this site here, There is no maneuverability. I would think, Mr.

Speaker, that if the price is the same that this is probably the best site for acco11D110dating the growing Civil Service. There is no way of stopping. You might as well give up on it. You cannot stop it. This administration imposed a freeze. I do not know how many people are aware of this. In 1972 in, I think, July there was a freeze. The Hon. Member for St. John's East will correct me if I am wrong. I think it was July of 1972. There was a freeze imposed on the Civil Service. From July to December 31 there was to be no new posts created.

If a man went to pension or a lady went to pension,if someone died or if someone retired you would replace them, but not increase the size of the Civil Service. There were to be no new posts for that eight month period or six or seven month period unless it could be shown convincingly that it was in the public interest that a post be declared. MR, NEARY: I_!i_ate to interrupt the honourable minister but there is no quorum. MR. HICKMAN: I would be delighted to call it quits for this afternoon, MR. NEARY: (Inaudible), MR. HICKMAN: QuerlDII call, great. It is your day. It is Private Members' Day.

If you would like us to go home, boy, I am all for it. Call in the members. Where is the whip? Let us go out and get him in. 5630

Anril 30, 1975 Tape 1938 (Afternoon) MR. SPE~KER (DUNPHY): Do we have a quorum? Would you count the House? MR. flICKNAN: >,ow, Mr. Speaker, where was I? MJl • nTTENHEP'!EP : Perhaps start all over again, Minister of Justice so that we could follow the trend of - MR. ROBERTS: "m. HICKMAN: Was there a trend? Oh there was a tremendous trend. The honourable Memher for Bell Island - HR. SPF.AKER (DUNPHY): Order, µlease! 'Ht. HICKHAN: - im1uired /1.S to why we had not gotten on with PK - 1 nuttin~ up this hqilding.

I note that he admits and says that no one could vote against the - /!R, ROBF.RTS: Is the minister aware that there is a story in the paper •..•• MR. f;PF.AKE]3_ (DUNPHY): Order, ,::,lease! The Chair has inquired from the Clerk Phether or not we have a quorum in the House. I have not back that report as yet. AN HON. MF.MEER: I do not interrupt people. MR. SPEAKER (DUNPHY): We have a quorum. The Hon. Member for Burin. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I advise you we now have a quorum.

The honourable the gentleman from Bell Island, you know, voiced the sentiments of ever yone in this House when he says that additional facilities are badly needed and to vote against the concept of additional facilities to house the public servants would be like voting against motherhood. But he did enquire as to as to why we had not gotten on with this before? Well, Mr. Speaker, I would love to be able to take the time of this House to indicate r,rhv. AN HON. MEMBER: 'fR. HICK~AN: ·-- ---- - Inaudible.

I can tell you one reason Hhy, How could we1 for instance.put up the building last year or since this administration took over when, for instance,t,;re paved every street does the ~1onourable gentleman from St. Barbe North realize this? everv street in the Town of Burin in the last two years. 5631

April 30, 1975 Tape 1938 (Afternoon) AN HON. MEMBER: St. Barbe North. MR. HICKMAN: And Burin and Burin Bay Arm and Burin Bay and Black Duck Cove and Port aux Bras and Salmonier and Salt Pond and Lewin's Cove and Greater Salmonier - MR. OTTENHEIMER: Very impressive. MR. RICKMAN: That is one reason why we could not do it, Mr. Speaker, because we were paving these streets. We have done the same in Fortune. That is all in my district. We have done all PK - 2 the new ones in Grand Bank and St. Lawrence. We are going to do Lawn this year. We are going to pave part of the Loop Road.

Marystown - that is not even in my distric~ - but I just drool when I look at Marystown. And when I see the millions and millions and millions of well deserved dollars being spent in that great municipality, and when I drive through it I stop and I bow and I genuflect - MR. OTTENHEIMER: What about Parkers Cove? MR. RICKMAN: and I look at Barry's monuments all over the place, his stadium - MR. BARRY: Seven million dollars. ----- - his water and sewerage. I can see them underground, I see them above ground, wherever I look - that is why we have not been able to do it. But the time has come, Mr.

Speaker, the time has come for us to proceed with the construction of a new building. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. HICKMAN: We have called for tenders. It is going to be an interesting exercise. Oh I forgot, I know what I was going to say - I see one of the gentlemen in the press looking at me wondering why I did not tell you - I was going to tell the House what happened when we put the freeze on the civil service in 1972. He nods.

In 1972 we put a freeze on, no new posts from July 1, or June 1, I think it was, 1972 to the end of the year unless a minister or his senior official could convince the government and Treasury Board, Treasury Board really,that it was in the puhlic interest to have a new post. With that freeze there were still 700 additi.onal people joined the puhlic service during that period. So people who talk about 5632

11:,ril :rn, 1975 Tape 1938 (Afternoon) PK - 3 outtinp, a freeze on the public service of saying the public service should not grow another· inch, that there should be no addition to it, they are not just being realistic.

Because as governments implement new programmes, as governments become more and more involved in the everyday life of the people, and I wish government's could avoid hecoming so involved in the everyday life of the people but apparentl y they cannot, apparently public demand is such that we have to continue to pass legislation to create more cro~m corporations, to create more departments , to create more progra11D11es.

I wish we could create a programme, a department, a challenge that would improve productivity as the honourable gentleman from Twillingate has so often said in this Province t'o make us competitive. I have a feeling that we are beginning to lose our competiveness in the scheme of things. I am looking at great public buildings that are under construction around this Province, and I am sure the pyramids were built in less time, p,oing on year after year, after year and eating up the taxpayers dollars in construction.

You drive across Prince Philip Pl~ce and look at the Health Science Centre and the Engineering School, you wonder when it is ever going to end. And I am convinced that three or four years ago these building could have been put up in shorter time. So we do have a responsibility to the public to provide adenuate housing for their servants who are hired to implement the programmes that they seem to desire. It would he wrong, whilst the balance of convenience or the balance of probability appears to favour the construction of a building either an extension or a new huilrling on these grounds, it 5633

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1939 NM - 1 MR. HICKMAN: would be quite wrong for the government's hands to be totally tied, This is why the amendment of the honourable Member for St. John's East is so eminently sensible as opposed to that of the honourable Member for Bell Island, and there is no doubt that I do not want to disclose that, I do not want to disclose to the House whether or not we are going to vote for the honourable gentleman's amendment for St.

John's East, That is a matter of suspense that will be unfolded next Wednesday or the Wednesday after all honourable gentlemen have had an opportunity to debate the sub-.mendment that is now before the House and hopefully to vote against it. Mr. Speaker, we in government have not made any decision. There has never been a policy decision made as to whether this present accommodation known as the House of Assembly, the place where the Legislature sits, is to be replaced.

Government has very prudently asked from time to time the appropriate officials in Public Works to indicate what can be done to provide space for members of the House of Assembly. We have now offices all over this building for members, for members who sit on the backbenches. They are in areas for instance on the fifth floor with no windows, difficult to find, not the kind of privacy that a member is entitled to have, no real accoDD11odation for secretaries down there.

Any Provincial Legislature today should, in my opinion,and any government should, probably the most serious obligation it has is to provide adequate accommodation for every member elected to the House. In Ottawa for instance, they provide offices for the Ministers of the Crown in the Parliament Buildings. It has nothing to do with the offices in their departments. As parliamentarians they also have offices. The members of Parliament have offices with adequate staff. You will find the same in the provincial legislatures and we have not got this here.

We have not got the facilities or space on this floor to accommodate them, whether or not, Mr. Speaker, we could take over some other floor immediately below us I do not know. But it would be less - Who is immediately below us? Oh that is the Premier, no, no. No, we will leave the Premier. He is all right. He is going to stay. But whatever it is, there is no question at all that ue have always been besieged with complaints, ever since this place opened, of inadequate accommodation for members of the House of Assembly. And we 5634

April 30, 1975 Tape No. 1939 NM - 2 would be less than prudent if we did not look at it to see whether or not the people could be better served by either totally separate accommodation or as part of a new building. Wh~tever we do with it it should be an area that is more easily accessible to the public than this place is. We were put on high up here and most of the people, maybe they are right in this, most of the people in Newfoundland could not care less where the House of Assembly is located because they feel this is a place that is almost inaccessible in where it is located, and that is wrong.

So that whilst we are not going to, whilst there has been no policy decision, there has been a very prudent practice of having a look to see whether or not this is the best we can provide. Mr. Speaker, we need in this Province, and I deal with it now because I have heard the suggestion before, about when you are putting up a public building, do not forget the fact that there is a desperate need, which there is, for a new Provincial Court House. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me make it abundantly clear that a court house under no circumstances can or should be housed in a provincial building.

The court house of this Province must always be separate so that the people of Newfoundland can see heyond all reasonable doubt that the Crown, the government, and those who work for government have no greater rights, no better rights when they appear before court than anyone else. And I would strongly fight any suggestion, and any attempt to include a new court house in the provincial building and may I say that in that respect I have the full,unconditional and unqualified support of my colleagues in government. 5635

April 30, 1975 Tape 1940 (afternoon) IB-1 They will not concede one iota to the suggestion that this should be taken into account when we build a new provincial building. We need a new court house. Host assuredly we need a new supreme court building, a building as the center of the court system in the Province. The cost is going to be absolutely astounding to build the court house.

Because of our system here of the Province assuming the full responsibility for the administration of justice, we cannot do as they do in Halifax and jn Nova Scotia and in other Canadian Provinces, ask the municipality to build our court house for us. That new court house,as I have said before, in Nova Scotia was built by the city only two or three years ago. We wit1 have to find the $20 million or $30 million or $40 million in time to put up that new court house building to house all the courts that must be found in the capital city of any province.

Government is firmly committed to the acquisition 1hopefully by construction itself or construction anyway of proper accommodations, suitable accommodations, not only for those who are in the public service now but those who are projected to join the public service within the next few years or certainly within the foreseeable future. We must have some freedom of action. I welcome the opportunity to hear from the honourable members of this House their views as to whether or not they would prefer to see this accommodation provided on the grounds upon which the Confederation Building is now located.

But I think that any parliamentarian who recognizes the difference between parliament and government ,because they are two separate institutions, two totally separate institutions. There are three separate institutions that function in the governing of any Province. One is the caucus of the political parties. Another is the government, that institution known as government, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. And the third is parliament or the provincial legislature.

I am sure that no parliamentarian would wish a government to be so bound that it is robbed of the discretionary powers that are conferred on any government that is elected by the people, that no matter what the coat, no matter what the recommendations were, that it would be bound to build this building on these grounds, 5636

April 30, 1Q75 Tape 1940 (afternoon) IB-2 The honourable the Member for St. John's East says something far d:I ffcrently. He1 and through him and through his motion the honourable members on this side of the House, and I believe on the other side of the House,will urge the government to provide this additional accommodation upon .the Confederation Building grounds. But, that is a far cry from saying, you have to do it no matter what the cost. For that reason, Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House will vote against the amendment with enthusiasm and we will then indicate when the debate resumes on the amendment of the honourable the Member for St. John's East as to where we stand on it. I am sure that from what I have been saying that most people know it now, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. John's North. 1-ffi. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, on the sub-amendment, the amendment to the amendment proposed by the honourahle Member for Bell Island, is - and I have used this term before - is procedural gymnastics. It is what I would call an acrobatic sub-amendment.

It is a devise and an