Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 27 (28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, January 30, 1967 MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 31 (b) (1) -- passed; (2) -- passed; (3) -- 589 MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I notice on Page 127 of the report of the Depart ment of Education the private trade schools, and I notice that not only was there an enormous increase in the number of students over the previous years of 628, but there was also three new schools registered during the 1965-66 year, and it seems to me -- I mean this is a good sign that people are taking advantage of the vocational school facilities that are available to them, but I wonder if it is a fact that the entrance qualifications for MIT are too high, or why is it that the number of private trade schools are increasing every year and· the number of students are increasing so rapidly?

Why is it that there should be a trend in this direction when the government has built a twelve or thirteen million dollar MIT school to take care of these trades? I wonder if my honourable friend would care to comment on whether or not he believes that the entrance qualifications to MIT are probably too high. That is, is it possible that applicants can get into a private trade school with less qualifications than is necessary in MIT?

And - I don't know whether to call it a disturbing fact or not - but I notice that at least 25 percent of the private trade schools that are registered have a home base in United States and if you check down the list you will find that they are from Chicago, Connecticut and San Francisco and all over the place.

In fact, I think there are only about 25 percent of the trade schools that have a head office in Manitoba, and it would strike me that there must be a real reason for the huge increase that probably the members are not aware of and I would be glad to hear the comments of my honourable friend in this respect. Page 127 of the .... MR. JOHNSON: Under our Special Programs Division, these people are in charge of registering these trade schools and we are in the process of re-registering them over the last two years and there are some 45 private schools at the present moment.

Our function here is to examine the type of program in these schools and largely to make sure that possibly not ad vertising kinds of programs that are not actually in effect there, and our people are, as I say, in the process of re -registering these. It came up in the House a couple of years ago. But our Rehabilitation Division -- when certain courses have not been made available as yet to our Vocational Branch, the Rehab Division for some time, for some years, has placed certain of its students, certain people in the private trade schools.

However, you notice most of these courses are available through the MIT. Are our standards too high? I don 1t believe they are. For the technologies one has to have a Grade XII General Course standing; the technologies are challenging courses of 2, 400 hours. Nothing like this is offered in -- of course these are trade schools at this level. Their challenging course is two years post-general course Grade XII.

Our trade programs start at the Grade IX level into many of them, Grade X, XI and XII, and many of our basic upgrading courses are -- for instance the basic upgrading program now in effect attempts to bring people first to a Grade VII level of competence and communication skills which is really English, Mathematics and Science, the three subjects, and they may then be brought up to a Grade IX or X level, preferably Grade X I think is level 2, and then level 1 is the equivalent of Grade XII in these three areas.

Providing they achieve a standing in this Grade, they are then ad mitted to MIT, so I wouldn •t think our standards are too high. Quite apart from this, when you say about the standards: are they too high? The Pas Vocational School: as you know we •re attempting putting on waitresses' courses and courses in food handling and various skills which are really designed to meet the demand in the service industries and are reaching right down below this level of competence amongst our, especially people of native Canadian extraction, to bring them into our facility there and teach them in these skills.

Also, I think when we get our Institute of Applied Arts established, as we are moving into this field we will be entering into areas of hotel and motel management and that sort of thing, which will probably infringe upon the area now being developed to some degree by the private trade schools. Another thing, I think there are certain private trade schools catering in areas that we have courses, or in some case� where we do not have courses, Now for personal reasons some people may use the Manitoba Correspondence College

whereas we have a complete correspondence division within the Department, as you know. Our job is really one of registering these particular schools and looking at the level of training there, and that's about the extent of it. I think that when you say -- I think there's a wide open field here as we are moving into it to fill a void, and as you can well understand the speed with which we have increased our courses at MIT which a few short years ago was thought

590 January 30, 1967 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd. ) .. ... possibly to be too big an undertaking at the time, which has certainly shown how wrong some of us were, or some people were, who predicted like some folks did that it may be too big an institution or we were not planning far enough ahead, and so on. However, it seems that many of these private schools also catered to the hairdress ing and barbering area which we are in, and we are graduating, too, more people in our commercial courses at the high school level and also, .of course, have a challenging post Grade XII course at the MIT in secretarial science.

I think, as our vocational program is enhanced at the high schoolJevel and our vocational programming goes ahead, that there probably will be less and less room for the so-called private trades school. But I must warn that the allowances we are now paying in all frankness to the people taking basic upgrading has resulted in a bulge which is simply fantastic; something close to 1,500 people back in school now and the Federal Government and us will have to get our heads together, especially in this manpower development area, and utilize facilities in the coming year if we 1re plugged at any one time.

In that connection Brand on, which just opened in October, with 290 some odd people last year, the capacity is over 600 already. We think it will be full within a year. The Pas is getting off to a slower start with a capacity of 500, but I believe there are 300 in training at the moment. So I don't think our standards are too high; I think we are being as realistic as we can in demanding a certain minimum entrance level requirement for entrance into our facilities, and I think there are many people who, as a matter of personal choice, go to private trade schools.

The S�ver-all thing, I think, is that we put our first demands for more workers on those with higher levels of technical skills and knowledge to meet the tech nology change as it advances and these demands continue to increase. And I think it shows the need for - we •re getting into the applied arts area and probably ... .... probably most of these -- some of these private trade schools are practising now, for instance the advertising arts, the graphic arts, printing and that sort of thing, even data processing, which we're get ting into in a big way.

So I think in some small way, in a way, in part, the private trade schools played a role over the years. They're not increasing, I don't think, at that rate be cause of our activities within government. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate very much and thank my honourable friend for the remarks that he has made, but I don't think there's a year goes by but what I in my selling activities do not run into one or more salesmen out selling programs for the private and trade schools, and I bumped into one the other day and I said, 11Well, how is it that you people are so successful in attracting students to your schools? 11 and he said, "Well, let •s face it.

The qualifications for entrance to MIT are Grade X and we •ll let them in in Grade Ill for mechanics and barbers and so on and so on. 11 Now, I know a former employee of this government and one who incidentally is out presently selling the school division plan - I refer to Bobby Bend, He used to promote this idea that you don't have to have Grade XII to cut hair, If you can change a dollar bill and cut hair, why that's about all the qualifications that are ne cessary. -- (Interjection) -- Pardon me? Someone wants his hair cut for less than $1. 00. Well in this day and age he •s not likely to get it. MR.

PAULLEY: Not in Transcona you can't. MR. SHOEMAKER: Not in Transcona you can •t. Well, Mr.

Chairman, it does make a fellow wonder, though, whether or not these salesmen for private trade schools are doing a service to the community or doing a service to the province by going around the province tell ing stories ·Of this kind, and yet when you encounter them you don •t have a very good argument to put up against them, and surely to goodness we should be doing probably more than we are to combat this type of program that the. private schools are putting forth. -- (Interjection) - Well, they have salesmen on the road.

Nearly every private school has salesmen on the road throughout the Province of Manitoba, and they are in competition with MIT - let's face it - in many cases, and they are saying, "Come on into our schools. We'll let you in with a Grade Ill. If you want to go to MIT you need Grade XII. 11 And this is the way they're getting a lot of recruits. Let •s not kid ourselves; this is a fact. Now I noticed an ad put in by MIT, in fact I've noticed several of them, in which they stated as the qualifications Grade X "or 11 recommendations from your principal or the Min ister of Education - something of this kind.

One or the other. And my honourable friend the Minister is quite aware of this because no doubt he authorized the ad. Well, perhaps we should lower the bars a little. Perhaps, as Bobby Bend has said on so many occasions, perhaps there are hundreds of people in this province that would make good mechanics, good barbers and so on and so forth, without having a Grade X or XI or XII qualifications, and perhaps we should be

January 30, 1967 591 (MR. SHOE MAKE cont 'd.) ..... doing more in this regard - of course considering, too, whether or not they're overcrowded at MIT. This is the point that I would like to make. MR. JOHNSON: . . . . . . . this comes up and I know that the honourable gentleman he refers to doesn •t require my assistance in interpreting his remarks.

What the honourable gentleman is saying is that there are children in our system, in the school system, some who would probably fit better into a trade earlier in life than others, but I am sure he con curs - as I have spoken to him on the subject - that the function and the duty of the educa tional system surely must be to bring every youth as far along the trail as he can achieve comfortably and with interest, and this is why we have diverse courses, the university en trance, and hopefully in consultation with his parents and teachers he can be guided into a course that best suits his abilities - and this is a very personal decision, as you and I know as politicians.

You just can •t screen kids; it •s a matter that req uires increasing guidance counselling services as our system becomes more complex and we recognize this, but teach ers and parents are the ones who -- and I run into this constantly as the Minister. The parents 'phone and say how happy they are that their boy is in a different course now and achieving something else. On the other hand, and just as valid, my barber is a very intelligent fellow, and to get along in the modern world he should have as much education as he•s capable of taking and most of them are actually darn smart fellows.

Many of them have their Grade XII and they talk about the space age as articulately as anyone else, and to be happy citizens and reach their fullness of life surely they shouldn •t be denied a proper education.

I don •t think our barriers are too high and I think the secret to the kind of question brought up by the Member from Gladstone is to have the various outlets and this occupational entrance course is one of the examples of the kind of program our educators are devising for boys and girls who aren •t going to go on to the general, the university entrance course, and as I say, to the adult force that have left school, the so-called tragedies of the past educa tionally, the basic upgrading program is proving a boon and these people want to come back and get as much as they can and go as high as they can, because for every grade they reach a whole new spectrum of trades and opportunities open up, and surely we must encourage them to do so.

Also, every single course in the trades, in the 55 trades at MIT, and in the 12 or 13 technologies now, is guided by an advisory committee made up of people in the field, in the business: the bricklayers, the technicians in the area; and they're advising us what type of communication s[.;ills and to what level a person should reach before entering a certain course, and that's why we have these variables. But another thing; many of the courses offered by these private trade schools are of a very specialist nature, not necessarily of the type one would offer and underwrite with public funds.

I can give you an example of that. In certain of our advisory board discussions - and you may hear it from time to time - in certain courses a particular business man or firm will say, "But you're not training him. You know, when we get him we have to give him on the-job training. " And that's very true; but our function is to bring him along in a broad educational sense to a very high level. This is as high as we can, and give him as much of the savvy as we can in the kind of institution we're running.

However, in the technologies we're in a different area where -- The chemical technology course, for example at MIT that is just beginning. Heavens, those boys put 2, 700 hours in on chemistry technology in a two year period. I think BSc takes about 1, 300 or 1, 400 hours in a general chemistry course over a three-year period. It's an intensive course designed to give the broad analyti cal background the boy or girl needs to enter industry for specific job specialization.

I think this is really true of all of them, but there are some of these trade schools that beam right in and certainly, despite the tremendous increase in the number of kids in our com mercial courses at the high school level who come out of high school for employment, the business colleges ha\·e continued to flourish over the years, and I notice most of these American colleges have been in business for many years prior to our Canadian counterparts.

But I would think generally that our advisory committees are a good guide to us as to the level to which boys and girls should be brought for entrance into a vocational training. And I think that the member for Neepawa should realize another point, that it's hard sometimes to separ ate out, but the kind of program at MITs at The Pas and Brandon is trade and technology.

This is meant to service the people who come out of the work force, the people who are finished high school, have completed a formal course of studies at the high school level, and usually maybe been out of school a year and come in for trade training. Some of them are apprentice ships who come out, reach a level in school and work, go into a specific job opportunity, and

592 January 30, 1967 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd.) ..... we bring them in for four to eight week sessions twice a year as a rule in the designated trades, of which there are 13 o.r 14. This is in contradistinction to the type of vocational high school program that is evolving. The commercial course is an example of it; auto body mechanics, electricity; some of these courses are now in some of our schools. That kind of program at the high school level is a 50-50 deal, we think, and will evolve into largely a half-academic, half-skill development type of course in one of these areas;

whereas the three schools, Brandon, The Pas and Winnipeg MIT are really post secondary or post -high school facilities. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I think we're on (

b) of Resolution 31. The other day the Minister gave us a statement in connection with the technical vocational schools in train ing in this province, and I put the question to him at that time, and I think I'm going to repeat some of my questions. Maybe he can answer them at this particular time. I have on previous occasions mentioned that we should have a technical vocational school up in the south central portion of this province or in the southern area. We have the popula tion, I think, and if several of the divisions got together on this, certainly we would have the enrolment for a school down there.

It needn't be that they would offer all the courses, but certainly those courses that are in greater demand, and if I am correct I think the Minister has had representation made to him by people of the area requesting this and I would like to know from him, what is the program for this year? Will any new schools, technical voca tional schools be built in the province, where are they going to be located, and will our area be entitled to a school at this particular time? I think that this is a very important matter for our particular area, as I already mentioned.

The need is definitely there and a good many of them are presently attending the school here in Winnipeg, but certainly we would have many more attending if the school was more local in our particular area. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, that 1s a very good question.

As we said last year, the attitude in consultation with the federal people on looking at our vocational high school pro gram was that the better -- first of all, what is the most educationally sound program at the technical- I wouldn't call it technical; the. real name should be vocational high school level and as indicated at that time the recommendation as I reported to the House a year ago from the committee th'at we had on this made up of our own local people, top people in the Federal Government, representatives.from Ontario and Dr. Lorimer who is now our Deputy Minister, Mr.

Bateman and so on, recommended a general approach to this,· that we would like obviously to meet the honourable member's request, namely that every high school could have a voca tional outlet, but certainly their recommendation at the time was, as you recall, that a min imum of 750 students in the vocational type of program were necessary to put on a proper type of vocational program at the high school level.

We have constantly been looking at this and with respect to the idea of composite high schools in addition to regional vocational, and as you know we•ve given the Boundaries Com mission the chore of looking at the entire province to form regions and group our divisions into units that would make it possible for divisions to come together and offer special educa tional opportunities, amongst them being vocational educational.

It 1s 'interesting, because at the present moment we are still negotiating with the Federal Government in view of the changes in policy that the Federal Government's announced with respect to their support of post secondary education and the fields that may be abandoned below that level. One of them, of course, is abandoning entirely the vocational high school field except for the capital support, that is, in operating grants, as I mentioned in the Paper the other day, and the possibility of composite high schools or they approving a lower number of students in attendance at such a school.

But no matter how you cut the mustard, the problem we have in rural Manitoba is that so many of our high schools have a capacity I think of 200, 300 students, a maximum of say, 400, 500 students, that to get the number of outlets that is educationally the best possible program at that level makes it pretty difficult in certain areas of our province to consider. We are examining this at the present time.

As the Commission is apparently studying the regions, we are again looking at the requirements of the Federal Government, what they will approve and share with us on a 75 percent basis - what size of school; what is the minimum size vocational high school, concommitant with a proper program. You wouldn't want to - - we can destroy the program by making such schools too small, because unless there •s a range of outlets it won •t achieve what we want it to do, to give the children more alternatives at the local level.

I also think that we will be looking at the pattern that we started to evolve a year ago, and I shared with you at that time mainly that such schools if they're regional or composite

January 30 , 1967 593 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd.) ..... should be governed -- local authorities should be made, put more under local authority rather than from the province in that sense that we could have divisional board members on a board of regions, or a board of governors running such a vocational centre. A great deal of research has been done on this and our findings are still under review at this very moment with respect to the Federal Government's minimum re quirements. · MR. CHAIRMAN: (3) -- passed; (4) - -passed; (5) -- passed; (6) -- passed; ( b) - passed. (

c) Directorate of Instruction:

(1) Salaries. MR. TANCHAK: Just a question here, I'm not going to go into a lengthy debate. I'm pleased that the Department of Education has recognized the importance of TV and the film strips. Visual education is proving to be a great valuable assistance to our schools, but I've had numerous complaints from teachers and from school boards that some filmstrips were not available at all times - quite a few complaints on that - especially these course films such as physics, biology and so on.

I just would like to draw the Minister's attention to this and I would like to know if it is the intention of the Department of Education to increase ap propriations in this respect so that disappointments would be less numerous in the future. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, any specific request for film strips, if the honourable member can record with me, I'd be happy to look into it. I thought we were doing fairly well in this area. I'd be happy to take any particular situations. The increase here against visual - additional visual aid - there is money in there for this too.

But I thought we were doing pretty good in that area and I'd be happy to hear of any disappointments. MR. DO ERN: Mr. Chairman, is this the Department of Directorate of Instruction we •re on? Does this involve guidimce services? Teachers are often asked to advise their students on which courses to take and one of the problems when you •re a guidance couns�llor is what to say to young students in regard to the General and the University Entrance Course.

I understand that the Minister of Education issued a directive just the other day which was read in the high schools of Manitoba concerning the General Course and the University En trance Course. I know this was read for instance in several large high schools and the state ment went along these lines. I think in the past, if I understand correctly, it was said that if a student fails - a Grade X student - if a Grade X student fails more than three subjects he must repeat the year. The Minister has added a new twist, and I must say that I take very strong exception to this.

He says that if you fail three subjects now you may do one of the following: repeat the year, or you are advised to transfer to the General Course. Now I don •t like this at all, and I suggest to the Minister that this is a very bad approach. I suggest that this is a negative approach, because it's going to mean, very simply translated to the public and the student, if you •re not good enough for the University Entrance Course, give it a try, flunk it, drop into the General Course. Now that is very bad. The General · Course is an excellent course and students should be encouraged to take it.

They shouldn't be encouraged, no matter how well intentioned the Minister is, they shouldn't be encouraged to give her a try in tiniversity entrance, and if you can •t make it drop down to the general. That 1s a very dangerous policy and I would like to ask the Minister to comment on that. MR. JOHNSON: I certainly will when I see the directive. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, on the very same subject matter, I am certain that my very honourable friend the Minister of Education has before him the resolutions that were passed at the 1966 Annual Convention of The Manitoba Association of School Trustees - and I refer to Resolution No. 17 if you have it before you my honourable friend - and it touches on the Child Guidance Clinic and the very real need for a substantial increase in the grant to wards the Child Guidance Clinic. This is one of the resolutions that I marked. Incidentally, the Association of School Trustees passed 29 resolutions.

I marked this one as one that I thought deserved some attention, because after all, Mr. Chairman, what is more important in a child •s life than to try and determine some time in the early years in what direction he 1s going to go the rest of his life. I wonder if my honourable friend the Minister would care to comment on whether or not he paid any heed at all to the request by the Manitoba Association of School Trustees in regard to Resolution No. 17. MR. JOHN SON: .... presented by Dr. L ... . . as president in the absence of Mr. Parkinson when they met with me.

That particular resolution was spoken to by the president of the association at that time who also serves as a director of the Manitoba School at Portage. This is the area where, under Special Services - I could come to that in a few moments - where as you know in the past year we have taken over the staff in the school, the

594 January 30, 1967 (MR. JOHNSON cont 'd. ) training staff at Portage and so on under the DepartmE)nt of Education, and also a year ago appointed the educational. co-ordinator at the Child Guidance Clinic in Winnipeg who is under our Special Services Branch.

As you recall, a year ago we talked about the development of child development services where the Department of Edu cation through grants and through the divisional system to the educational system would in clude the trainable retarded in addition to the educable retarded which have been the re sponsibility of the divisions for some time, and that it would be the function of the Depart ment of Health, under the Director of Psychiatric Services and through people in education, to be in charge of assessment of these children prior to entrance into a class and to assist us with guidance, through them, based out of our main centres here and at Portage and at Brandon.

This is the overall plan, and certainly in this area in assessment of emotional disorders and that sort of thing there is a tremendous need. We are manfully attempting to cope with it between the two departments and I hope to set up a satisfactory service. The Association of Retarded Children have been discussing this with us; we had a long meeting not so long ago. \Vith respect to counsellor training, as you know we established the Guidance Branch in August of 1965 and at the end of the first year we had added two assistants to the Director, Mr.

Banman, and the supervisor, and the branch played a major role in revising the provisional guidance program. I believe the member from Burrows manfully worked on this committee, or knows about it, and during the past year a program for a Bachelor of Education in guidance and a Master of Education degree in counselling were established at the university.

Bursaries for counsellor training were made available in the past year, Fifteen bursaries up to $2, 500 each plus tuition for the Master's degree in counselling were offered and five bursaries up to $1, 500 each plus tuition for the Bachelor of Education guid ance candidates, and several bursaries of $500 to encourage development of this service.

I think it's far more preferable in the opinion, certainly of the government, that through guidance counselling and this type of approach through our divisions to help the stu" dents rather than some neat little method of screening on the basis of how many subjects are passed here and there, or some firm screening program. We think this is a better approach and we're supporting this in this way. I think the Guidance Branch have certainly opened many communication channels with institutions and organizations in business, and I feel they •re getting off the ground with a very good program. MR. TANCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, I asked a question about the filmstrips and the Min ister said he wasn't aware that there was a shortage of filmstrips. I have had some teachers, especially one right in my own district, who complained that she had to wait for five months after she had applied for a certain film strip and I think it is serious. The Minister says he wasn't aware.

I'll just read from Page 46, bottom of Page 46, Department of Education's report -- I'll read that, it's very short: •ffurn-downs on requests for films and filmstrips - particularly films - have been alarmingly high over the past year, spelling out the need for a substantial increase in our appropriation for film purchases in the years ahead. This is being kept in mind, and we can only hope that the necessary funds will be made available.

" I would like to ask the Minister if there are funds available or increased funds in the appropri ation because I realize it is quite a concern to many teachers who like to make use of this valuable visual education. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) -- passed; (2) -- passed; (3) - - passed; (4) -- passed; (c) - passed. (

d) Directorate of Special Services -

(1) Salaries. MR. DOERN: The Minister will be delighted to know that this is my last comment and it'll only be a few minutes. I would like to first of all commend the Minister very strongly for his support of the Department of School broadcasts because I know by the grapevine, and having worked with this department several years ago when I was a teacher and having worked on several school telecasts, that they are very fond of the Minister and they very much ap preciate his support in this area.

For example, they have won many awards, which he has already mentioned, and I don't think that the Manitoba department in this area takes a back seat to anyone, either in this nation or perhaps even on the North American continent, because they have ample number of awards to prove their case - Ohio State awards, which are really the only ones available. They have won Canadian awards but they now win the only ones avail able, the Ohio State awards, and this is in no small measure due to their dynamic and capable director, Miss McCance, whom the Minister has already spoken of.

The question that I wanted to raise and draw to the attention of the Minister is this. I as a teacher have used the programs produced by the Department of School Broadcasts, but there

January 30, 1967 595 (Mr. OOERN cont1d.) ..... are difficulties in putting them on. The programs are very good, the programs are in demand, the programs are wanted by the teachers, but there are diffi culties in trying to get to see them, trying to show them to your students. For example, we don •t have enough proper audio visual rooms. I have shown programs under the only way possible, which was to have four TV sets in an auditorium with 300 students. That's not the best way to show a program. There are no TV periods quite often. We could perhaps use some timetabling.

In many cases there are no TV sets - this is very common. They're rented and there's the old dilemma there, if you rent them you only use them at certain times. It has to be absolutely crucial or they won't rent one for you. Of course, if you had one you'd use it more frequently, so there's the dilemma of should we rent one or should we buy one, and always it 1s "rent 11• Then there 1s the other question of proper stands. You need a special stand for a class room. I've balanced TV sets on piles of books and chairs. It's not a very good method.

You need a specially constructed stand which is about six feet in the air. And then another thing I think the Minister has already pointed out, we could use our own network eventually; we could use more production facilities; and the one thing I would like to really draw to his attention is the fact that of course we need to repeat programs and we need to produce more programs. We now have for instance half an hour a day of television; we have half an hour a day of radio; and this is wide throughout the province.

It is shown in Winnipeg, it is broadcast from Brandon on television, Yorkton on television, Dauphin and Swan River, shipped up to Flin Flon, The Pas and Thompson. This is all very good, but the one thing I would like to ask for from him for consideration - I know he's probably been ap proached before and he may have considered it - is how about some special grants earmarked for television sets. Schools get special grants but they use it for all sorts of other equipment. How about some special earmarked grants for TV sets and radios. A lot of the radios in the schools are out of date and rather faulty.

The big thing I would like to ask him for or to consider is video tape recorders. They're now down to about $1, 200 which is pretty expensive, but the schools could then take off what they want from TV sets and show it later, because the timetable problem is a very serious block. It's ruining the good work done by that department. It's preventing teachers from seeing programs; preventing students. We need more flexibility, either more films which is expensive or video tape recording machines, and that's what I'd really like to see. . . . . . continued on next page

S96 January 30, 1967 MR . CHAIRMAN: (2)--passed; (3)--passed; (d)--passed. (

e) Manitoba School for the Deaf -

(1) Salaries --passed; (2)--passed; Resolution 31-- passed. 5. Buildings and other projects, MR . GUTTORMSON: Could the Minister tell us what the situatioq is with the University Book Store. Is it a non-profit operation or not? Could he indicate that? Is it supposed to be run as a non-profit or not? The reason I ask the question is I've had complaints from students who claim that the books cost more. It's their impression the University Book Store is a non profit institution and yet they pay more for books at the university than at the stores down town. Now can the Minister verify this or not? MR .

JOHNSON: I didn't know they could get them down town, but I'll look it up. MR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, under 5, I wonder whether we could have an itemized list of the nature of the expenditures under this item? Then too before we leave the department completely, I asked for certain statistical information earlier on when we discussed the educa tion estimates and I understood from the Minister that these would be supplied to me. I just wonder when I could expect them. MR .

JOHNSON: .The honourable member was in the House the night I explained something but I'd be happy to look it up again and get it for the honourable member. I think he wanted the assessment in his area of Rhineland or a few divisions. You were talking that night .about a general levy of.seven, but you neglected the school district levy and the divisional levy which you add on the basic levy under the old system that was obtained by dividing the number of authorized teachers into the balanced assessment which includes equalized personal plus busi ness as you recall.

Now I think you were taking that figure and neglecting to add the district and divisional levies which are now on top of that, in comparing it with the new Foundation Program. I have asked the department to get me some figures which I'll be happy to pass on to the honourable member, and anything I can do to help him or win his support for the single district referendum I'm almost prepared to do it and I'll go -- with any of the members, if there's any particular figures that I can dig up, in all frankness, give them to you as candidly as we can get them. Some questions re filmstrips.

I think too the new Foundation Program for the majority of divisions, with the.increased amount of money for supplies and so on, will allow for more flexibility by the individual divisions and instructional supplies and .so on and there should be more assistl:lnce for purchasing of radios, television and other equipment.

But I would say to the member for Rhineland, I think I can get the specific information he asked, I marked it down and I asked the departmental officials to see \yhat they could do with it and right off the top they thought that you probably hadn't added to your deductions the special district levy in the area and the divisional levy which must go on top of that general levy under the present program. The appropriation before you on Capital - I can break it down for you, Included in here is $100,000 for finishing up Brandon and The Pas •.

You'll be seeing The Pas on the 17th of February when I hope the Legislature will come. The plan is to leave P. M. of the 17th by train, and on arrival in the morning we would go by bus to Cranberry -.those who wish to go - see the institution. We should open the new wing there and dormitory. We have some new dorms and classrooms there and we want to open those, have a nice lunch, proceed back to The Pas and officially open the trade school the next afternoon, The R. B.

Russell school - 1. 3 million; the Manitoba Institute of Applied Arts - 5 million in the current year; Provincial Trade School's alterations - $400, 000; Regional Vocational High Schools - 3 1/2 million. We're budgetting here also for a high school of commerce in the Greater Metropolitan area of half a million; for a total vocational capital of $10. 8 million, The Manitoba School for the Deaf, we have $10, 000; Frontier School Division at Cranberry, a further $985, 500; the Berens River and Wanapago - $800, 000 is the total bill there; and Norway House is a $1 . 6 million effort.

These programs are shared with the federal authority and this is the vote under this appropriation this year. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we leave the final items on the department, I wonder if the Minister could give us at this time what the federal contribution is. Last year the estimates included these figures and I think these were very beneficial. My calculation of last year's figures indicates that out of a tota l increase of some $22 million in the estimates there was approximately 13 1/2 million of an increase in federal funds.

Now this year I think that the Minister is going to be getting more money from Ottawa. The university assistance for example, I believe, has been increased from $2. 00 per capita to $5.00 per capita. I wonder

January 30, 1967 597 (:MR. MOLGAT cont'd) ••••• if the Minister could indicate to us just where this is shown in the estimates. The present estimate, that is the comparison in the bookfroni last year, 83 million includes some $20 million I presume of federal funds. What is the figure compared to the 119. 7 million? MR . JOHNSON: Last year we --some discrepancy here.

First of all'with respect to the two and five dollars, as I indicated in my remarks the other day under the university grants when we were talking about the vocational aspect of it, in this new deal, this so-called 50% of all post-secondary education, as I pointed out, the formula was 30% of operating and 20% capital in their eyes, depending on their definition of operating costs, post-secondary education, and the three year rule. Now our officials are still together, meeting together to work out just what these things mean and I have had no further official communication.

As I indicated in my remarks the other day, this total amount that will be available to the province are not yet fully determined. These estimates are made up on the best guess that we can make at this time and, most hopefully, the guess.

The one thing that came through though at our meeting in October which provided us with the assurance, as had been provided to 1970 previously, but provided the assurance to us that the capital allotments for our vocational schools would be lived up to and carried out in good faith, and they not only gave us our allotment of 75% on this formula to our maximum amount and guaranteed that we would have this when we wanted it, but also extended for all the prov inces in Canada a further proportionate sum.

So as I said both in the Speech from the Throne, which is in Hansard, and in my remarks the other day, these capital monies are available to us. Now the sharing here is of course 75% federal money on the vocational programs that I outlined on the basis of 75-25. The federal share of the 10. 8 million in the vocational training capital is 8.1 million, leaving the province 2, 7 million; and I believe I outlined in the Speech from the Throne how we're going to project this. The School for the Deaf of course is all ours. The Frontier School Division is 50, 000 only federal there.

That's largely our own expenditure of 985 minus 50. Berens and Wanapago, the federal breakdown is a total vote of 800, 000. They're paying 579 and 1. 6 million is 1. 2 million. These are both areas as you know where we're integrating our educational facilities with the Federal Government Indian Affairs and they're paying the larger share there because they have the larger number of students. So out of this particular vote of 14. 2 million, the f�deral share total would be 9. 9 million and our share would be 4. 3 million. :MR. MOLGAT: I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if we might now take the. total for the Depart ment of Education. The Minister's estimates indicate $119, 788, 000 as the total for the department. Now could the Minister indicate to us what portion of this l.s going to be direct provincial expenditure and what portion of the 119 million is federal. MR .

JOHNSON: I don't think I can give you an accurate figure on that as yet, anyway until our negotiations are complete with the Federal Government with respect to both the vocational and the university section, but there will be obviously extra moneys available from the Federal Government with respect to the university vote but we don't know the impact on our vocational vote exactly at this time. I couldn't give an actual breakdown of revenue at this moment, but undoubtedly wouldn't this appear in the revenue estimates when they come before the House? MR . MOLGAT: Well, Mr.

Chairman, my reason for asking is that the Minister the other day was very critical of the Federal Government's contribution and it's quite possible he should be very critical, I don't know. Unless be gives theHouse the information as to what he's getting, the House doesn't really know whether my honourable friend was beating the Federal Government over the head in order to justify his position or whether he has a perfectly justifiable claim.

I want to assure him that if he has a justifiable claim I will help him in his endeavours to get more money out of Ottawa, but if on the other hand my honourable friend is simply taking this as an opportunity to get himself off the hook, then I think the House should be so informed. Now in view of his very strong statement the other day, I'm surprised that today the Minister tells me he doesn't really know how much he's going to get from Ottawa.

I find some difficulty in justifying or reconciling the two statements, and it seems to me that if the Minister has proceeded to set up these estimates and if his honourable colleague the Provincial Treasurer is setting up a budget, that they must have some idea of what the federal contribution is or else how are they going to determine what it is that they are going to propose in the way of provincial taxation? It may well be only an estimate at this point.

598 January 30, 1967 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd) •••• • I appreciate this, but there must be some kind of a figure for my honourable friend to be making the statement that he did the other day and for the Provincial Treasurer to be preparing a budget. So I wonder, could he tell us now: 119 million in the vote - how many million from Ottawa? A MEMBER: Whatever it is it won't be enough. MR. JOHNSON: That's right, and I can't give you an exact breakdown as I said in my statement the other day. if you'll look at Hansard.

You know, my honourable friend, when I arrived in Ottawa last October for this meeting with the First Minister, what was the headline that greeted me? "Federal Government to Pick up 50% of Post-Secondary Educational Costs. " We don't know today what that means, and I'm being perfectly frank. We thought at first blush from the

definitions that were before us that we would gain $3 million in the four borders of Manitoba. We think it's now going to be considerably more than that. Another thing we don't know is post-secondary education definition. It may well include Grade 12. They may say junior matriculation is all you need. You know, they have to have a formula that fits across Canada, and Manitoba of course, being so far ahead in academic achievement -- as a matter of fact I'm sure if my friend can consult with the Minister of Finance, Mr.

Sharp, being a good Manitoban in my book, said to the gathering, "Well of course, Manitoba has a general higher academic standard." I therefore suggest, and very strongly, that Grade 12 might be considered post-secondary and have been joined by other provinces. Now that may very well come in, which will mean more money, but it appears that right off the top, right off the top there's 9 million of the University's budget this year of $24 million that we know right off the top isn't subject to federal sharing. Right off the top of our heads. We're still getting down to details.

But I can't give you the exact breakdown because we act ually don't know the impact on our Vocational Branch and I'll tell you it wasn't an easy job trying to make out our estimates for this year, as I indicated in my statement the other day, because the whole thing is we've put down to the best of our ability. Certainly what has to be paid as indicated in these estimates will be paid. As I said in my remarks concerning the affiliates, for example, they may very well -- this was not a sacrosanct final figure, this was an estimate and as of this moment I don't know the exact sharing even in the vocational area.

For example, what about the inclusion of -- they're suggesting the three year rule. They will pay lOO percent of the costs of all those who come back out of the labour force, after being out of school three years, for periods up to one year. Now as I indicated the other day, up to 50 percent of some of our students at tr ade and vocational schools are not included in this. This will fall on the province, apprenticeship training, and I would hope -- I think the Honour able Leader of the Opposition should make his views known to Messrs. Marchand and Kent of Manpower Division. Honestly, Mr.

Chairman, eight months ago I told Mr. Kent I thought it was a terrific idea to increase those training allowances, to help these people who are making a personal decision in Turtle River and Evergreen to quit their occupations and come back for basic upgrading, for entry into a trade or technology, but when they quit they had to have security; security in the program and the faith that we were going to see them through. I had every assurance. To my horror, they pulled out in this area below the three-year rule. To my horror.

And we're still trying to convince our honourable colleagues down. there and that means millions in the four borders of Manitoba. So this is the complex problem your poor Minister of Education has had in presenting the estimates to you this year. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, my heart bleeds for the Minister. After that tale of his problems I feel that I must -- why doesn't he invite me to go with him on the next trip to Ottawa and I will see what I can do for him? But I just wonder if we might come back to the point.

How much money did he get from Ottawa last year and how much money does he anti cipate he's going to get from Ottawa this year? Now I know his problems, and I know the difficulties he's had with Mr. Sharp, and Mr. Marchand and Mr. Kent, and all these people at Ottawa, and it won't be necessary for him to re-cover all that ground. If he can just tell me in dollars and cents what be got last year at Ottawa; how many million? And how many million does he estimate he's going to get this year at this point? MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, may I suggest to the Leader of the Opposition and to the Minister that maybe the Minister's problems will not be quite as great now that Walter Gordon is back in the Cabinet as they might have been with Mitchell Sharp. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that all the kids will have to have the new mathematics.

January 30, 1967 599 MR , HILLHOU SE : Mr, Chairman, how about , , , , couple of weeks and giving the Minister of Education and my Leader an opportunity of going to Ottawa and just finding out what you're going to get, MR , DOERN: Mro Chairman, last year the federal government gave $23 million, Can the Minister suggest whether this figure will be greater or less ? MR . JOHNSON: As I said in my remarks the other day, at the moment, hopefully, at least $6 million ove r-all gain, but we're not sure of this, No, we have been negotia ting since last Octobe r.

I have not had a final co mmunication on what the definition really means. I certainly know what's culled out of operating costs and that reduces me to the point where - certainly to date they've lopped off $9 million of a $24 million university budget since that portion is strictly unshareable. How much more 's to come I don't know, We haven't got these definitio ns , For instance, if it's Grade 11, if they're going to pay that, there's X more million dollars, As I said, on first blush we thought there was three; the last blush six, I think there will be more if it goes down to include the Grade 12 leveL MR .

SHOEM AKER: Mr. Chairman, in conside ring --(Interje ction) -- Pardon me ? He was agreeing with me ? Well, that's fine and dandy, There 's one thing that I haven't got quite clear in my mind yet, and that is this.

When the estimates were drafted, my honourable friend must have taken into consi deration the new school pro gram and the fact that nearly lOO percent of the schools would vote for the single school division, He must have considered it at the same time as the estimates, and then he must have taken into cons ideration too the fact that if they voted in the affirmative then it would not mean a tax rebate , and in the estimates a year ago there was something like $1 0 million in the school grants for school tax rebates, Am I not correct?

In the estimates last year of the Department of Education there was in cluded a figure of some thing like $10 million for tax rebates - $11 million. Well, then, in effect the entire vote for the Department of Education this year is really $10 million more than is shown here if it turns out that the 33 divis ions vote in the affirmative, and by the same token there will be no tax rebates in the current year, If it turns out that way.

And surely my honourable friend would hope that it would, so my question is: did he consider that fact when he was drafting the estimates or where is that shown -t he $11 million; the saving of $11 million ? MR , JOHNSON : It's lumped in the full figure of school grants and other assistance, MR , MOLGAT : Mr. Chairman, I really don't want to belabour the point and if the Minister would simply give me a straightfor ward answer I think we could settle the matter, Now, last year his es timates show a breakdown between federal and provincial .

I presume that is what the figures in brackets indica te , In any case the total expenditure was $83, 446, 000, Now how much of that was from the Federal Gov ernment ? Can the Minister give me that in formati on? Of the $83 million last year to be expended by the Department of Education, how much was federal mon ey ? MR . JOHNSON: I'd have to figure that out. I'm not sure how much of the 83 was re covera ble, If you recall, I think last year we had the recovery from the training allowances, for example, which totalled around 3 1 /2 million, which isn't in this budget.

We haven't de fined the terms but out of the 83 mi llion I'm not just sure how much was federal. I'd have to look that up. It would be largely under voc ational, as you know, and capital. With respect to this year the total of 119 is what will be spent. That's all I can indic ate to the honourable member. Going back, included in the University estimates of 22 million, as I said in a state ment the other day the full allotment of the Federal Govern ment that we'r e knowledgeable of at the moment is included in that total estimate, As you know, they're paying it differently this year.

So that would be new federal money in that appropriation. The exact bre akdown, I believe, will appear in the Revenue Account and how much more there is in total, as I said, a minimum of three; it could be much more depending on these

definitions, and quite honestly we, on our negotiations to date, based these estimates excluding capital which we don't under stand will be covered, and putting in the moneys as we know are available such as the equiva lent amount of the $5. 00 per capita figure that they received last year and adding our capital to it and putting in the rest to meet their necessary budgetary requirement this year, but the total amount tha t's in these estimates, I think is up about - I'm just giving a guess - three to six million.

I'd have to work out the details but we did this on the information we had to date and hopefully there could be more depending on , •••• 1\ffi, DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister doesn't know the amount , how can the honourable Provincial Treasurer prepare his budget if he doesn't know what amount he needs ?

690 January 30, 1967 . (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••••• We're told that we would have the budget very shortly. That was last week. It must be very very shortly now. We we won't .have the budget then? We shouldn't expect the budget for a while then? MR . EVANS: You'll have my estimates when the budget comes down. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, that's clear. When will that be? Next year or this year? MR. EV ANS: A few days yet. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, then I take it there is no place in the estimates that are before us, there's no provisi on at all for school tax rebates, none at all?

Because in the es timates last year on Page 10 it shows for the year 1966, ending March 31, 1966, we approved an expenditure of $10 million and for last year 11 million, and in the esti mates this year there's no appropriation at all for school tax rebates. MR. JOHNSON: There's been a change in policy as I stated in the White Paper and hope fully we will gain single distri ct divisions. Those divisions that don't vote in will not be re ceiving the increased grants and the estimate is that the money will be made available from school grants· and other assis tance. MR. CHAffiMAN: (5) --passed. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I take it that my honourable friend is anticipating that there will be lOO percent affirmative vote, otherwise there would be some measure here. MR. MOLGAT : Mr. Chairman, will the Mini ster undertake to get for me the amount of money he got from Ottawa last year and the amount that he anticipates without all his hedging, the amount he anticipates he's going to get from Ottawa this year. Now sure ly be must have that figure.

Surely the Minister wouldn't get up in this House and give us the speech be gave us the other day abo11t how terrible the deal the Ottawa government was without having a figure, and this is what I would like to know from him now. What is the figure? If he can't give it to me now, then would he undertake to get it for us and we undertake to leave this item open until he does. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, may I make one brief comment. I join with the Honour able Leader of the Opposition in his endeavours to try and find out what Ottawa is doing in res pect of education.

Indeed, we've been trying for a long time to find out what Ottawa's attitude is in respect to many other functions of government, I need not mention at the present time we did try for a long time to find out what their posi tion was in respect of Medicare and we still don't know. It's an "if and a but and an and'' situation at the pre sent time -- if the economy expands and if it doesn't expand, when we have one program with a right hand, another one with a left hand -- goodness to gracious knows where they stand. I would like too, Mr.

Chairman, and I join with the Leader of the Opposition -- I don't know whether or not. the Minister of Educa tion has the proper authority to try and find out what's in Ottawa's mind, it appears to me that they don't know themselves - but if between the Leader of the Opposition and the Mini ster of Edu cation or some other Minister of the Province of Manitoba we can find out what the dickens they're doing down there, I'm sur e that it would be for the betterment of all.

Now it's my understanding the records show that for last year the federal contribution to education in Manitoba was in the neighbourhood of $14 million in the overall picture. I think the Minister of Educ ation, generally speaking, says he isn't quite sure whether this has gone up to $20 million - that is a $6 million increase - or whether it's a $3 million increase. First of all, it appeared from the press statements as though it might be a $3 million incr ease.

The Minister I believe a moment or two ago said that this might mean an increase of some $6 million which would make the overall contribution of somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 million by comparison of the $14 million figure . But I think that it would be desirable if we could ascertain the exact contribution from the federal authority in the field of education. And on this very point, Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that there are areas in the educa tional field where provinces have got to get more and more contributions from the senior government, the federal authority.

So I think that the Leader of the Opposition is perfectly correct, if the Minister of Education can find out -- and I have some question as to the avail ability of the information from ottawa as to exactly where they stand in educa tion, as I men tioned -- I don't know where they stand in other fields either, but that's beside the point for the prese nt discussi on - but I would suggest that it would be very helpful to this committee if we could find out where does ottawa stand and what contribution are they going to make to education in Manitoba. MR. JOHNSON: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I can certainly find the amount of money, federal money that was included in the $83 million. I can also indicate to my honourable member

January 30, 1967 601 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) •.••• that the inc reased monies from Ottawa would come through two sources in these estimates, the university and affiliated colleges area and the vocational area. We have put extra monies, monies we have recei ved from Ottawa in the universi ty; we have put it in vocational education insofar as we !mow. We have not completed negotiations, no province has. We have made these guesstimates to the best of our ability in recognizi ng what . our costs would be this year.

It may very well be that our original estimate of $3 million last October has already climbed to six in a net gain, plus and minus, and if there's further monies we will !mow as soon as they're made available to us. In the meantime, I will try and get that in those two areas insofar as these estimates are concerned, MR. CHAIRMAN: (5) --passed; Res olution 32 -- MR . CAMPBELL: On 32, Mr. Chairman, was a+l of the money that was provided last year spent on buildings and other projec ts ? MR. JOHNSON: I have not got that particular information with me .

Well, there 's one item -- certainly the fourth floor at MIT went ahead, the monies on the R. B. Russell. Institute went ahead, Cranberry and so on. Probably the one item that did not proceed and there wasn't any construction was in the area of regional vocational high schools where part of our esti mates last year dealt with them . As you know, as soon as the House rose the election came and we've had to have those regions defined before we could make a start. MR. CAMPBE LL: ••••• Mr. Chairman, a bre akdown not in complete detail but in the larger amounts of the vote for this year ?

Could we have just the large items ? MR. JOHNSON: Capital vote ? MR. CAMPBE LL: Yes, MR. JOHNSON: I gave that capital vote in detail. MR. CHAIRMAN: 32-- passed. • ••••• continued on next page

60 2 Janu ary 30, 1967 MR. CHAffiMAN: Reso lution No. 33. 1. General Administration: (

a) Administration -(1). MR. WITNEY: Mr; Chairman, in introducing the estimates for the Department of Health for this year I'd like to spend a bit more time than I usually do, basically because we have spent a fair amount of time on the Department of Educ ation and I think that the Department of Health has also got a very important role to play in the Province of Manitoba. We have after all to have healthy children for the healthy education program and we have after all to have healthy parents to understand the healthy children who will be benefitting from the he althy education program.

I'd like also in the introduction of the estimates to dwell to a considerable extent upon the matter of prevention of illness and the rehabilitation of people who have been suffering from some handicap or another. I would like to take certain excerpts from the

summary of activities of the Department of Health for the ca lendar year for 1966. Now this document was forwarded to you during the Christmas season and I trust that you were all able to rece ive it on time, and since I felt that you spent much time during the Christmas season in perusing its contents I thought that there were some items in here that should be drawn to your attention, particularly in the matter of prevention of illness, because the Department of Hea lth has got a particular role to play now, has had, and will have in the future in emphasizing its activities towards the prevention of illness.

As we see the cost of hospitalization rising and as we see such prograins coming up as medical services insurances, it is up to the Department of Health and all others to do as much as they possibly can to prevent illness and to cre ate and to increase their activities in the rehabilitation of people who are suffering from one handicap or another. I'd like to point out to you some of the value of prevention, and the Department of He alth does not take the full credit fot this, it's been a part of a team.

The deaths per thousand people over the period of 1964, it was 7. 4 -- I beg your pardon, 8. 2, and in 1965 it dropped to 8. 1 and in the preliminary figures it has now dropped to 7. 4. · In the infant mortality the rate of deaths per thousand live births, in 1947 it was 46; in 1959, 27; and in 1966 the estimated figures will be approximately 20. This has all been done through the matter of prevention of disease and it goes back to a time 50 years ago when the public health nursing started, and in 1966 we ce lebrated the 50th anniversary of public health nursing.

From the time that it started with five nurses, there was a program that was to include the investigation and recording of infant deaths, public health educa tion programs, demonstrations of nursing work, examina tion of school children, home visiting and control of communicable diseases.

These functions of the public health nursing service and of the Department of He alth itself are still there but they have expanded to a considerable degree over the yea rs in between, and the role of the he alth units will be taking a new dimension as we move into the field of geriatrics, as we move into the field of mental illness and menta l retardation, and as we move into the field of expanded child care and home care.

Some of the items on the results of prevention of disease that I'd like to draw toyour attention, on Page 109 under the Preventive Medical Services dealing with some of the specific diseases, infectious hepatitis continues to show a downward trend. During the first nine months of 1966 reports were rece ived of 201 cases compared with 512 for 1965 and 702 for 1964.

For the first nine months of 1966 there were reports of 70 cases of dysentry compared with a figure of 326 for 1965, and in other matters such as the matter of rheumatic heart disease we find that the program has been effec tive in that we have more people coming to the department for he lp in these particular diseases, and in coming to us for help it will prevent the disease and will prevent more severe consequences than would have happened had they not come to us.

In rheumatic heart diseases the patients accepted under the program to the end of 1965 were 1, 995 and the patients accepted under the program to the end of September of 1966 were 2, 071. In the other items that we have with respect to people rece iving drugs from us, the drugs for the treatment of diabetes, the patients supplied in 1965 were 651 and the patients supplied in 1966 were 746 for a nine-month period only.

But perhaps one of the most startling items in respect to prevention of disease shows up in the report on Page 168 and 169 where we are deali ng with the provincial laboratory or the Cadham Laboratory. The Cadham Laboratory has provided the facilities for Phenylketonuria detec tion to all hospitals in Manitoba and to date over 20, 000 newborns have been screened by the Guthrie technique . --(Interjection)-- That's a genetic abnormality that occurs in children at childbirth.

It's been variously estimated that the cost of maintaining an affected individual in an institution for a lifetime is in the order of $200, 000. We detected two as a result of this

January 30, 1967 603 (MR. 1¥ITNEY, cont'd) •••.• program during 1965, and with the detecti on of those two we have been able to provide for them the nece ssary diet and saved the province for these two people for their lifetime an es timated half a mil lion dollars. In rehabilitation of the handicapped, I believe that some of the items that are shown up in the report are important.

On Page 29, during 1966 over 200 persons were placed into the sheltered workshops of Skills Unlimited at Winn ipeg and at Se lkirk for the purpose of work assessment and work training, and this experience enabled the rehabi litation counsellors to facilitate replacement of 50 persons into full-time competitive employment, 35 persons into remuner ative sheltered employment, and another 40 persons into formal vocational training in preparation for competitive employment.

Altogether, rehabilitation services have served 4, 800 children and adults with services through volun tary agencies and through thems elves in comparison to 4, 000 in 1965, and during the period of the past ye ar, 425 persons were placed into competitive employment during the year against 350 in 1965. And when we consider these figures we see what the value of rehabilitation is.

The es timated annual earnings of these people were $1, 27 5, 000, and the es timated annual payme nt to income tax was $85, OOO,and the cost of ser vice for the 425 cases was $212, 000 for an es timated annual provincial and welfare saving of some $300, 000. Rehabilitation Services also operates a very active and comprehensive home care equip ment service. The service is staffed by two full- time medical equipment technicians.

On prescri ption from a qualified medical practitioner equipment of a hospital nature is provided to any Manitoba citizen at no cost, where provision of the equipment facilitates discharge of the patient from a hospital or nursing home to his own home or circumvents admission to the facilities. At October 1966 , this servi ce had over 700 pieces of equipment out to over 500 patients throughout Manitoba. The dollar value of this equipment is es timated at $300, 000, and there 's every indication that the demand for the service will continue to increase.

Three years ago this program began providing positive pressure bre athing machines to pers ons suffering from pulmonary emphysema. These patients spent on the average 100 to 150 days per year per patient in the hospital. Initially four machines were placed on loan and at October of 1966, 89 machines were out on loan and the indications are that there will be at least a 25 percent increase in the next year, and of major significance is the fact that the hospital day utiliz ation of this group now stands at approximately 15 days per ye ar per person. In the psychiatric

section of the Department of He alth the matter of prevention and re habilitation has been going on steadily and I feel that it's intere sting to note the success of the psychiatric services. It is anticipated that the total admissi ons to the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute , the Se lkirk Mental Hospital and the Brandon Mental Hospital will approximate 2, 000 compared to 1, 900 admissions in 1965, and this is a very mod est increase.

But it's interesti ng to note that a further decrease in the number of patients in these hospitals is indicated and it is probable that patients continuing in hospital at the end of 1966 will be approximately 100 less than a year ago, and when you consider that 100 at an average per diem rate of approximately $7 . 00, that is approximately $7 00. 00 a day which will be saved as a result of being able to reduce the in-patient population at our mental facilities by 100 people.

Part of this has been done through the co=unity mental health activities and through the new activities of the psychiatry secti on over the ye ars in trying to utilize as much as possible the co=unity ser vices, and in the out-patient sec tions of our mental facilities in the provinc e in the Psychia tric Institute here in Winnipeg, in 1965 it was 6, 800 in round figures and in September of 1966 it was 8, 100. At Br andon there had been a 25% increase to where it is now at 2, 500, and at Selkirk it rose from 1, 900 in 1965 to 1, 700 in September, 1966.

Part of the reason that we are rece iving more people coming to us in the out-patient sec tions of our psychiatric hospitals is the fact that the new Mental Diseases Act is beginning to take hold. We have more people coming to us regularly now on a non-com pulsory basis as the effects of the Act are beginning to be known to people throughout the province, and by having them come in this manner we are able to prevent deterioration of the disease and consequently able to prevent them from becoming in-patients for a period of time.

Just to indicate some other areas where I feel there has been success in psychi atry, at the schoo l of Portage la Prairie in the first nine months of 1966 the community approach that's operating from the school achieved an outs tanding success. There were 96 admissi ons and 67 discharges, and the discharges show an increase of approximately 50 percent over the whole of 1965 when the discharges numbered 48, and in addition to this activity the total co=unity work placements increased from 63 in 1965 to 164 for nine months in 1966. While these figures may

604 January 30, 1967 (MR . WiTNEY cont'd) .••.. be rather confusine they are figures which show the value of pre ventive medicine and the activities of our psychiatric

section and the Department of He alth as a whole. The Health Units are one of the most effective means we have for the prevention of disease and we have been expanding the Health Units as fast as we could. The southwest unit was developed and is now in full operation, and as a result of that development we fourid diphtheria which had b.een the re for some time. It was found and has now been cured.

We have expanded our lab and X-ray facilities to Swan Ri ver; we are in the process of bringing the mining towns of Thompson, Lynn Lake and Snow Lake into the northern local health unit , and I expect that when we get the southern unit completed for the south of the province , that we will then have the large majority, over 90 percent of the population, covered by the health units and the ser vices that can be given by a health unit will be given to these people to their benefit and to the benefit of the province as a whole.

Dealing briefly with the Manitoba Hospital Commission, the 1967-68 printed estimates show a requirement of $63,2 65, 000 for the Commission, calculated on the basis of the gross accounting system. This is an increase of $11, 965 , 000 over the $5 1, 300, 000 provided in the printed estimates of last year. In reviewing the operations of the Commission over the year, it should be noted that for the calendar year of 1959 , the first complete year of operation of the Commission, the total costs were $27 mil lion. For the calendar year of 1967 costs are estimated at over $60 milli on.

And thus in an eight-year period costs of hospital care in Manitoba have more than doubled. Since the commencement of the Hospital Insurance program in 1958 the Commission had committed over $335 million in operating costs for hospital ser vices. These funds have been used to provide hospitals with the means to extend and improve services to patients and to meet higher operating costs caused by general trends in the economy.

The largest proportion of cost, 70 percent, has been incurred for salaries for hospital per sonnel including the improvement in salary levels and the increase in numbers of staff required for improved and more specialized services to the Manitoba residents . Hospitals have traditionally engaged in the educational programs and in 1966 in the Mani toba Hospital Commission the estimates include over 1, 700 students, such as medical interns and residents, nurses and technicians.

The range in hospital services insured on an out patient basis has grown from emergency diagnosis and treatment in 1958 to include 60 other designated procedures by 1966. Out-patient insured services rose from 41, 000 visits in 1959 to approximately 90, 000 visits in 1966, and the annual cost is now estimated at $1 million. This increase in the out-patient activity of our hospitals in the province has helped to forestall the need for in-patient activity which is the very costly operating

section of the hospital. The facilities for the treatment of patients requiring long-term care have increased from one hospital with 438 beds in 1958 to three hospitals and two special units with a combined total of 838 beds in 1966. The operating costs in 1967 of the four facilities that have been opened since 1958 will be over 2. 2 million. Hospital-based home care programs , which is another method of keeping people out of hospitals or at least shortening their length of stay in hospital; now number four .and they have been in operation since about 1964.

Some of the many programs which have been added since 1958 include the provision of insured services by the Manitoba Cancer Trea tment and Research Foundation inc luding the province-wide cytology screening progra.tn, the pre-school development clinic at the Children's Hospital of Winnipeg, and intensive care units at a number of our hospitals. These latter two are operations which have taken pla ce within the last two or three years and are again a form of preventive medicine in order to aid in the problem of in-patients.

In addition to the expansion of services provided since 1958 there has been a significant increase in the facilities available to the people of Manitoba under the insurance program. Since July 1958 a total of 55 hospital construc tion and renovation projects have been completed at a cost of 33 •. 9 mil lion. These projects, in addition to providing more modern facilities and services, have added 1, 156 new beds in the province, increasing the number of beds per thousand population from 6. 38 to 7.

Four projects costing an additional $8 million are currently in progress and completion is anticipated during this year. A further 37 major projects with an ultimate costs estimated at $7 1 million have been approved and are slated for construction during the next seven or eight years. During 1966 a number of projects in the extensive program to. expand and improve the hospital facilities of our province were completed. These included a new 22 bed hospital at

January 30, 1967 60 5 (MR . WITNEY cont'd) .•..

Winnipeg osis , replacing an obsolete 17 bed facili ty; a new 68 bed active treatment hospital at Swan River, inc luding the renovation of the old hospital to provide a 20 bed. extended treatment unit; an extens ion to the Swan Lake Hospital; a new 22 bed . intensive care llnit with equipment costi ng some $210 ,0 00 opened at the Winnipeg Gene ral; a new 2. 2 million central laundry on the grounds of the Winnipeg General Hospital opened in June pf 1966 , now providing laundry services for the Winnipeg General, the Children 's, the Rehabilita tion and the Grace hospitals.

Since the incep tion of the Hospital Insurance Plan in 1958 the government has accepted the respons:lbility of underwriting the development costs of the program substantia lly from general revenue , and has been able to maintain stabil ity in the proportion of costs to be financed directly through premiums. In fact, the present premium rates are sl ightly less than those charged in 195 8. It is not contemplated that there will be any change in these rates for 196 7. However, during the coming year the government intends to place the hospital insura nce program on a current financ ial basis.

In previous printed estimates the requirements of the program have been included on a calen dar year basis rather than on the fiscal year of the province. Provi sion for this change is included in the 1967-68 esti mates. In addition, in the current fiscal year the total expenditures of the plan amount to more than was provided in the vote amount for transfer to the hospital commission under the gross accounting system. These changes account for 4. 9 million of the 11, 96 5, 000 increase for 1967-68 over the previous esti mate period as requested in the es timates under your considera tion today.

The balance of the increase, some $7 million, is required to pay for the. increased ser-; vices being provided and to place the plan on a balanced financ ial basis now that the pattern of growth in hospital services has been estab lished. In the matter of trying to control the hospital costs, I've outlined the prevent ive work in some short comments from the

summary of activities of the Hea lth Units. I've mentioned the work of rehabili tation and I have mentioned that we have the home care functioning through the Manitoba Hospital Commission, and I have mentioned that we have the expanded activities in the out-patient secti on. But we're also conducting studies to determine what more can be done in the matter of control of the hospital costs , and in 1965 the Federal Government set up a hospital services study unit and this was done at the advisory meetings on hpspital costs to the Federal Minister and was done on the initiative of the Manitoba Hospital Commission.

From the study which has been set up by the Federal Government there will be three projects con ducted here in Manitoba, and these are: an inves tigation of automated hospital systems and procedures; an identific ation and prediction of non-medical factors affecting the length of hospital stay leading to better utiliz ation of active treatment hospital beds and facilit ies; and the third one , the inve stigation of the effectivene ss of the present system of transporting accident victims to hospital.

We have submissions for four other additional projects and they are at various stages now of preparation and study, and these are: an inve stigation of surgical cases with respect to reduction of post-operative days by home care; an evalua tion of the use of waiting lists as a management and planning tool; the development of a model patient record system; and a pilot project in the applic ation of work study principles in hospitals.

And the commissi on is also inte rested in a number of additional studie s, two of them which are a study of hospital per sonne l, particularl y nurs ing resources , relative to patients' needs , and a study of dietary costs, and with the latter we now have the report of the Ministe r's Committee on the supply of nurses. I think possibly, as I have just a few more minutes left, that the members of the Committee might be intere::;ted in an indic ation of some of the increases that have been requested by the hospitals.

The budgets of the 80 public hospitals in Manitoba have been received, and the es timates are such that they are now up to about $64 milli on. For 1967 the budget hospitals ar.e asking for almost $10 million more than the approximately $50 million that they were getting in 1966 , an increase of almost 20 percent. The Commissi on's budget for the year 1966 would be strained to the limit with an inc rease in the hospital payments of this size, and the budgets have been reduced to approximately 10 percent.

It's interes ting to note when we consider these increases, that in 1965 the Manitoba hospitals provided about 1. 8 million da ys of patient care. In 1966 they provided sl ightly less than in 1965, and the 1967 budgets again anticip ate the provision of about 1. 8 mil lion da ys, and that's over a period of two years. There has been no increase in days of care provided by hospitals. I draw that to your atten tion when you wish to consider the inc reases in the budgetary costs that have been requested by the hospitals.

60 6 Janua ry 30, 1967 (MR . WITNEY cont'd) •• ••• During 1966 the hospitals increased their staffs by 300, and according to their budgets for 1967 the hospitals are proposing to in crease staffs further by over 1, 000 people without a corre sponding increase in the number of patient days of ca re. Now I think with those remarks that I had to make, that they are rather brief, about the Department of Health.

I'm sorry that the annual report of The Manitoba Hospital Commission is not yet available, but as I pointed out in the House the other day, it's usually brought down about the middle of February and it's not required until about March 30th. I am hoping, how ever, to have some of the narrative, possibly not the figures, which are still in the process of audit by the auditors. I am hoping to have some of the narrative in one or two copies available for the members of the Opposition. Now, I've dealt very briefly with the Department of He alth and I've taken some of the highlights from the

summary of activities for the ca lendar year . I might say that I will be tabling soon the annual report of the Department of Health, but to all intents and purposes the

summary of activities is essentially what will appear in the final report of the department which will be laid on the table, and copies for those who wish to compare this to that, a copy will be available in the legislative library. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that there are one or two comments that the honou rable members might wish to make, and I will sit down now and let them make them. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I was quite interested in the remarks of the Minister.

I was disappointed in a lot of the things that I thought that he omitted, ..•• the certain policies that we should have, and I was sure that the Minister would give us these policies tonight. I don't know if it means that he has no policies or that he wants to wait until a later date to an nounce same. Now I think that the problems that we're faced in this department seem to be shortages.

We dealt and we're dealing in another resolution, on the shortages of nurses, the shortages of doc tors, shortages of other hospital personne l, and I think that we'l l have to talk about the shortages of beds, shortages of hospitals , and because of the high cost of hospitals and the fact that aS the Minister announced today the budgets have been reduced from 20 percent to 10 percent, the budgets of the hospitals , that we can also say a shortage of money. Now I don't think that there's too much point in repeating what I said about the shortages of nurses. I cer tainly feel that it is a real problem.

I do not wish to stay and live in the past. I think that as I said before the gove rnment and the Minister should learn by their mistakes, that they didn •t do too much, they didn't start soon enough after getting this report on the short age of personne l, but at least now we have what I cons ider a very good report, the Minister's report on the supply of nurses, and I would like to congra tula te the Minister at this time on this report.

I know that he didn't write it himself, but if he can be criticized for shortcomings in his department it's only fair to give him, to entitle him to some of the credit for the good things that come out of his department. I think that this is a very good report. I would like him to, in my name and in the name of the party that I represent of cou rse, I would like to give our personal congratula tions to all the people who did work on this report because they did a very good job. Now there are - I'm cert ainly not going to read - I would suggest to all the members that they should read and study this report.

I think that it is very important, and I'm not going to try and cover all the recommendations. There are a few recommendations that I think are very important: On Page 12, Reco mmendation No. 16 , that the Manitoba Assoc iation of Registered Nurses be authorized to act as a bargaining agent to negotiate reasonable salaries and other terms of employment on behalf of member nurses. Mr. Chairman, I consider this reso lution to be vital, to be very important, and I hope that this will be implemented as soon as possible.

There is also on the same page Rec ommendation No. 18, that benefits for long terms of employment include educa tional leave with pay and/or schola rships, and I think that this also would help an awful lot to alleviate the shortage of nurses. Now on Page 17 there's another one, No. 41, that the educational program for the prepara tion of diploma nurses be based on a two-year course.

I figure that this should rea lly help us, and I unde rstand, I was told just before coming back in the session tonight, by the Minister and the former Minister of Health also, that the nurses had approved this course, and I think this will be implemented. I think this is very good. I think that there's only one resolution - there are some that are more important than the others, but there's one reso lution though that I didn't like at all. I can see , I ca n understand

January 30, 1967 607 (MR.

DESJARDINS cont1d) .••.• maybe the reason why it was felt that they should introduce this reso lution, but I consider this more of a negative reso lution and I hope that we look at this one before bringing in any reco mmendation - and this was Reco mmendation No. 21 on Page 13, that in order to minimize staff disaffection, caused by temporary vacation-time ,. nursing per sonnel shortages, hospitals openly follow, insofar as is required, a planned and orderl y pro gram emphasizing the admissi on of emergency and urgent cases in summer vacation months and admitting the higher proportion of el ective cases during the rest of the year.

I think that there are too many -- well first of all, the cost of a hospital bed which I think has reached as high as $7 0,0 00 a bed in certain teaching hospitals here in the metropoli tan area. That cost is too, too high, to not to have it used to capacity at all times and not to use the facilities of the operating rooms also, and I think that there are too many patients waiting, and they have lengthy ..••. they are waiting six, seven, eight and more months for what the commiss ion might not cons ider an urgent case, but it's quite urgent when you're sick.

Although it's not a ques tion of life and death when you 're waiting for a long time you want to get it over with. I know that I waited for a knee operation for about six or seven months and I was very pleased when it was over. So I understand that they have to do the best they can under the present conditions , but I would think that we should emphasize, we should try our best to - and I hope that this is going to be done now; I know that it will - to try to interest more girls to enter ing the nursing professi on, to try to keep more of our nurses here and also to try and obtain more nurs es .

I would like to see us try more positive actions before implementing this

Section 21, the same as I would like to see the ope rating rooms used during the weekend. We are cer tainly spending, oh, much over , quite a bit over a mil lion dollars by the beds that are being occupied now extra days because the operating rooms except the emergency cases are not used. So I think that we would be ahead of the game -- apparently we can't get the personnel. I am sure we can get the doctor s. The doctors are -- the courtesy doctors now are complaining that they cannot get their patients in.

I'm sure that they would be re ady to work on weekends and maybe take another day during the week, take another day off, and as I say again, with all that ex pensive equipment, with all the high cost of beds, there 's no reason -- and such a waiting list also, I think that we should do everything possible to see that the opera ting rooms are used during the weekend. Now if we had a shortage -- they say that it's difficult to get the nurses on this weekend. I'm sure that you can get them. Maybe you'll have to pay time and a half, but you still would be away ahead of the gane.

There are certain nurses, maybe some of the married women, who would be ready to maybe work every seco nd weekend, or maybe two weekends out of three , especially if they were given extra pay for doing so, until we get all the nurses that we want, and I'm sure that we W'Juld still save quite a bit of money. So I think that this is some thing that we've mentioned for a few years in a row and I was disappointed to see - this was one of the things I was disappointed that the Minister did not see fit to talk about, trying to occupy these expensive beds. MR . LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if this might be a convenient time to interrupt my honourable friend and suggest that the Committee rise. MR . CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted cer tain reso lutions, directs me to report same and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSI ON MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur ): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, secon ded by the Honourable Member from Springfield, that the report of the Committee be recei ved. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Provinc ial Treasurer, that the House do now adjourn. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2: 30 Tuesday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	78ff323deffb34d3ba065ea78645a77d5f015923

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