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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, October 30, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 17, Number 14 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Thursday, October 30, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 7669 Statements (Standing Order 25B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 7669 Community planning and development in Victoria J. Bray Doreen Lawson R. Lee Remembrance Day I.

Chong Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 7670 Youth crime J. Kwan Hon. R. Coleman Traffic fine revenue and funding of municipal police forces J. MacPhail Hon. R. Coleman Changes to laboratory services B. Locke Hon. C. Hansen Traffic fine revenue and funding of municipal police forces J. MacPhail Hon. R. Coleman Mountain pine beetle infestation P. Bell Hon. M. de Jong Government aid for B.C. cattle industry P. Nettleton Hon.

J. van Dongen Tabling Documents .............................................................................................................. .................................................... 7673 Cross-government expenditures under September 2000 federal-provincial-territorial early childhood development agreement, annual report, March 31, 2002 to March 31, 2003 Second Reading of Bills ........................................................................................................ ................................................... 7673 Youth Justice Act (Bill 63) (continued) T. Christensen R.

Visser B. Penner S. Brice M. Hunter R. Nijjar G. Trumper A. Hamilton Hon. G. Plant Committee of the Whole House ................................................................................................... .......................................... 7691 Pacific National Exhibition Enabling and Validating Act (Bill 83) J. MacPhail Hon. K. Falcon R. Nijjar

7669 THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 The House met at 2:05 p.m. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] Introductions by Members Hon. G. Collins: I would like to introduce some- body who is probably no stranger to these buildings. Michael Geoghegan is in the audience today. He is now the president and CEO of the B.C. Construction Asso- ciation, which represents over 1,700 construction com- panies across the province. He's joined today by his executive assistant, Lyssa Marcil, who is also no stranger to this House. I would ask the House to make them welcome. I.

Chong: Joining us today in the Legislature, I am pleased to introduce five very special guests: Victor E. Wong, Gordon Quan, Paul L. Chan, Philip Young and Frank Lee. These men served in the Southeast Asia Command Force 136, a special service, during World War II. They were chosen because of their Asian back- ground and appearance. Due to the nature of their unit, secrecy was vital, and consequently few people knew of their existence. They were required to operate out of uniform and were therefore not under the protection of the Geneva Convention. Would the House make them all feel very welcome. P.

Nettleton: We have here today a number of ranchers, including Judy Nicholson from Grassy Plains; Levi Knapp, a young rancher also from Grassy Plains; Sharon Robertson, a rancher from Grassy Plains who has two children and six grandchildren, all in- volved in ranching; and Denise Fawcett, representing the Central Interior Feeders Cooperative Association, a third-generation rancher from Vanderhoof. Please give them a big welcome. S. Orr: We have with us today 23 wonderful grade 4 students from a school in my riding, St. Andrew's School. With them is their teacher, Mr. K. Pollard.

Would you please make them very welcome. R. Sultan: In the House today is a very special friend of mine who enjoys outings on my boat. She is active in cross-country, soccer and gymnastics. I refer to Emily Driedger, the daughter of Melissa Nowa- kowski, one of our hardest-working caucus assistants. She's here with her fourth-grade class, which has just been introduced, from St. Andrew's School. Would the House please make them welcome. J. Bray: I notice in the gallery somebody else who is no stranger here and no stranger to anybody who calls to speak to government MLAs.

It is our wonderful cau- cus receptionist, Lisa Johnson, who really helps us keep things ticking here. I would ask the House to please welcome her in the gallery. L. Mayencourt: S o m e o f u s f r o m t he we s t wi n g o f this Legislature have had the pleasure of working with a legislative assistant by the name of Christine Lewis. Christine is here today with her mother and her grandparents. Her mother is Nancee Lewis, and her grandparents are Marian and Reg Ward. What makes this day a very special occasion is that it is their sixtieth anniversary. We're very pleased to have you here today.

I would just like the House to congratulate them by giving them a warm welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) COMMUNITY PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT IN VICTORIA J. Bray: Recently Victoria city council voted down a proposed new development in an area of my commu- nity known as the Cook Street Village — this after much work by the Fairfield Community Association of Victoria and the neighbourhood. I must say, the devel- oper also worked hard to try and meet the neighbour- hood's expectations and meet the spirit of the Fairfield community plan.

It was not that the Fairfield Commu- nity Association is anti-development; it is just that they felt the scale of the project was too big for the Cook Street Village and that it did not conform with the 15- year-old neighbourhood plan. Given this, I say that democracy was upheld and the community won, but this process highlighted for me some serious problems. Revitalization of Victoria, and especially downtown, will be dependent on new development. That fact is inescapable.

In order for Vic- toria to maintain our services and therefore our tre- mendous quality of life, we must expand the tax base. [1410] I'm not saying Vancouver-style development. We can have a made-in-Victoria solution, but density will ultimately be the key. The community plans are in some cases almost 20 years old. We must look to new plans to recognize the emerging needs of our city to maintain and expand our tax base. I support neighbourhood planning. It is a key to how our com- munity operates, but the plans must be linked to over- arching goals.

No neighbourhood should bear the full brunt of new development, but no neighbourhood should expect to be exempt from development. All cities that have reinvigorated their downtowns and improved their services have done so in large measure by welcoming high-density development. We need to increase the tax base and make use of previously developed lands to avoid continued urban sprawl and to stop the loss of additional taxpayers to other areas of the region. Am I simply being pro- development for the sake of the economy?

No, but to maintain our quality of life, all neighbourhoods should consider completing new plans that are linked to city- wide goals. In my opinion, to do otherwise is to threaten the sustainability of our quality of life.

7670 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 DOREEN LAWSON R. Lee: Today I rise in remembrance of Doreen Lawson, a former Burnaby councillor and longtime community activist. Doreen was a remarkable individ- ual who devoted her life to the betterment of her com- munity and to teaching others about the importance of preserving the environment we live in. It was Doreen who lobbied for years to have the Burnaby Lake area designated as an official wildlife sanctuary, earning her a well-deserved nickname as the Lady of the Lake.

She was passionate about every challenge she took on in life, especially municipal politics. Doreen served on Burnaby city council from 1972 to 1985 and again from 1991 to 1999. Even in her mid-seventies, Doreen was still going strong, working behind the scenes dur- ing the last municipal election. But what I respected the most about Doreen was her lifelong commitment to teaching and learning. When I first considered entering provincial politics, Doreen took the time to show me the ropes and gave me a real sense of what I would be going into.

I remember the day she and I took a canoe out onto Burnaby Lake so she could explain to me why the wildlife in that park was an important issue to the resi- dents of my community. I also understand she recently enrolled in numerous art courses to obtain a degree from the Emily Carr Institute of Art and Design and held several exhibitions of her paintings of wildlife and nature. I think that sort of dedication to expanding one's horizons in the latter years really speaks volumes to the character of the Lady of the Lake.

She will be remem- bered and sadly missed not just by those who knew her but by all those who in the future will visit Burnaby Lake to enjoy the natural beauty that thrives there to- day. That is her greatest legacy. REMEMBRANCE DAY I. Chong: W e h a v e r e a c h e d t h a t t i m e o f t h e y e a r when Canadians everywhere will soon be wearing on their lapels, jackets or other clothing an international symbol for those who died in war — the poppy.

Every year approximately two weeks before Remembrance Day, November 11, the Royal Canadian Legion con- ducts its annual poppy and remembrance campaign, a campaign whose object is to raise funds for the needy Canadian ex-service members and their dependents as well as Commonwealth veterans of World War II. The poppy is the symbol of tribute to the more than 117,000 Canadians who have died in the service of our country in the military, the merchant navy or other wartime agencies that supported the war effort.

To that end, I would like to pay special tribute today to a par- ticular group of veterans: the Chinese Canadian veter- ans. These were a special class of young men whose desire to serve their country, their place of birth, was much greater than their desire to be treated as equals. Those young Chinese men who enlisted back in the 1930s could not before that time call Canada their homeland in terms of citizenry, yet that factor did not deter them. They were born in Canada but not ac- knowledged as Canadians until they enlisted and served.

Their sense of pride and belonging to Canada in working alongside other Canadian soldiers became very real and very important, and when they returned home, they were welcomed as heroes. But now they faced another challenge: to assist other Chinese born in Canada with full Canadian citizenship and full voting rights. By 1947, the Chinese people were indeed granted that right, and we are indebted to those Chi- nese Canadian veterans whose courage and pride paved the way for so many others.

Remembrance Day shall remain and be reverently observed on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month of each year as memorial services in communities across the country honour and commemo- rate the sacrifices of men and women who served and died in military service and the merchant navy. [1415] We are indebted to all veterans and all those who have served and to the fallen, to whom our debt can never be repaid. We shall honour all veterans — and for me especially, the Chinese Canadian veterans — lest we forget. Oral Questions YOUTH CRIME J.

Kwan: The Attorney General and Solicitor Gen- eral went to a meeting this week with an announce- m e n t a b o u t h o w t h e y w e r e c r a c k i n g d o w n o n y o u t h crime. Will the Solicitor General please tell us today how many youth have been found guilty of driving without a licence in 2002 and how many youth were found guilty of trespassing on school grounds? Hon. R. Coleman: I don't have those numbers at my fingertips, but I will get them to the member. Deputy Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant with a supplemental. J.

Kwan: Well, it's not surprising, actually, that the minister doesn't have the facts. It's a pattern this gov- ernment has established, a pattern of actually hiding the facts or ignoring the facts — whether it's increasing unemployment, a failing economy or closed residential beds. Either they don't know, or they're not saying it. Can the minister, then, at least tell us if he's satis- fied that all youth who have driven without a licence or trespassed on school grounds have been caught and successfully prosecuted? Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Hon. R.

Coleman: I said I would get the member the statistical information. You know, what we've done in

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7671 the last two and a half years is actually listen to commu- nities and law enforcement, and we've started to build the tools that are necessary for us to push back at crime in our communities, whether it be youth justice, whether it be issues in and around street racing or whether it be issues around how we will handle information man- agement and modernize our police infrastructure in this province — something that was never done under her government, something they completely ignored. They spent their time not worrying about these issues.

We're spending the time worrying about these issues, and I'm proud of the fact that this government is taking some stands on behalf of communities. Deputy Speaker: The member for Vancouver– Mount Pleasant with another supplemental. J. Kwan: Well, this minister is unable to say how many of those offences go unapprehended, but clearly he thought the problem was bad enough that he needed to introduce tough deterrence measures this week.

Will the minister then confirm today that no matter how tough the law is, if you don't have enough police on the ground, on the streets, to capture the criminals, the toughest laws in the land are of no use? Hon. R. Coleman: Isn't that incredible? The member used to be a member of the Vancouver city council and actually is aware of the fact that the city police in Van- couver are paid 100 percent by the city of Vancouver and that they set the priorities and the numbers for the police in Vancouver. She's also aware of the fact that in British Columbia, the law enforcement community has not had its budget cut.

She's also aware of the fact that this government has stood up against crime and will continue to do so on behalf of all the people of the prov- ince. She's asked for some statistical information, and we'd be glad to get it. But you know what? If you don't give tools to fight back at crime, you're making the mis- take of ignoring crime and destroying our society, and we're not prepared to do that in British Columbia. TRAFFIC FINE REVENUE AND FUNDING OF MUNICIPAL POLICE FORCES J. MacPhail: W e l l , w e ' r e j u s t t r y i n g t o f i g u r e o u t what the heck the Solicitor General does know about.

W e a g r e e t h a t y o u n e e d t o g i v e p e o p l e t o o l s . T h a t ' s absolutely right. Yesterday the Premier, in one of his rare appearances in the House, confirmed what the government's own documents have intimated: the 75 percent share of traffic fines that he promised would go to municipalities won't be included in the 2004 budget. If it does happen, it won't be until the 2005 budget — just days before the next election.

The Solicitor General s a y s t h e y n e e d t o o l s , b u t I m u s t s a y , g i v i n g i t t o t h e municipalities in '05 sounds like the worst kind of CYA exercise ever. [1420] Maybe there's another explanation. Can the Solici- tor General please tell this House what he sees in his crystal ball that would make him think we will need more police on the street in 2005 than we need on the streets today? Why do they get the tools just days be- fore an election and not today? Hon. R. Coleman: We've actually built a police plan in the province. We're actually funding that police plan in the province.

We're actually looking for en- hancements to police in the province. We actually work with all our member communities to look at things like integration and amalgamation of services, the im- provement of communication — all of the things that were ignored for ten years while you were in govern- ment, hon. member. You sat back and never did a thing with police in this province. You never built a plan. You never had a discussion. You never built the criminal justice system, and now today you think you can question it. I'll tell you what. We said we would give back 75 percent of fines.

We said we'd give it back in the New Era document, and it'll be given in this mandate. That's meet- ing our commitment to a new era. At the same time we've made a commitment to make our communities safer and stronger and better places to live, because we've actually sat down with law enforcement to build a plan to protect our communities, and we'll continue to do so. CHANGES TO LABORATORY SERVICES B. Locke: My question is to the Minister of Health Services. On July 9 the government announced plans for laboratory service reform, which has resulted in concerns being raised by my constituency.

Many fear that these reforms will lead to labs being closed, re- duced patient access, and that doctors will not be able to receive test results promptly. Can the Minister of Health Services outline how the government's position of laboratory reform will benefit patients? Hon. C. Hansen: Lab reform is something that virtu- ally every other province in Canada has gone through, certainly west of Quebec. B.C. is finally getting to the point where we're addressing that issue in this province.

We have a system in this province that costs 50 per- cent more per capita than the Canadian average, and we have a per-capita cost of about $115 compared to Ontario, for example, which is in second place at $90. It's not just about getting better value for the taxpayer so that money can be redirected into other patient care needs.

It's specifically about making sure that patients get better service as a result of better information sys- tems in terms of lab results, faster access to the test results that come by and reducing the unnecessary duplication of tests that we so often hear patients in this province complain about. TRAFFIC FINE REVENUE AND FUNDING OF MUNICIPAL POLICE FORCES J. MacPhail: It took this government less than 24 hours to give away billions in corporate and high-

7672 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 income taxes. They didn't have to calculate, equivocate, obfuscate, negotiate. They didn't even cogitate. With one flick of the pen, it was done. After two years, what's the result? Highest unemployment in years. We have the worst economy in the country and the biggest deficit in history. But the Premier and the Solicitor General are taking their sweet time to help communities fight crime. In fact, the Solicitor General doesn't even know what crime he's fighting. He can't tell us.

If they actually delivered on their promise today, communities would see an immediate infusion of at least $65 million to fight crime. Why is $65 million in additional funding to fight crime a good thing in an election year but not a good thing today? Hon. R. Coleman: This is the member whose gov- ernment cut over $100 million in community grants and downloaded resources onto communities. This is a member who ignored the requests by law enforcement for years to upgrade the technology in the province.

We are actually putting in place the only jurisdiction in North America, or any jurisdiction you'll find, where we'll have a real-time information management envi- ronment for police… Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Order, members. Hon. R. Coleman: …that will tell us what's going on in our streets, so we can have the information that interacts with itself, so we can solve crime in every jurisdiction in the province. That is a breakthrough. That's an incredible breakthrough. [1425] I'm proud of the fact that we have the guts to make the tough decisions with regard to crime.

I'm proud of the fact that I'm prepared to stand up, and this House is prepared to support me. My colleagues support me in building an infrastructure for policing that modern- izes policing so we can protect our communities. MOUNTAIN PINE BEETLE INFESTATION P. Bell: My question…. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Leader of the Op- position, come to order. P. Bell: I can't hear myself, let alone anyone else. My question is for the Minister of Forests.

As Brit- ish Columbia has faced many disasters this year, in- cluding the winds and the rain and the fires, we can't f o rg e t t hat w e f ac e ano t he r m ajo r d i s as t e r i n o u r i nt e - rior forests — that of the mountain pine beetle epi- demic. Released today, the chief forester shows that the size of the beetle infestation has nearly doubled since 2002 to over 4.2 million hectares in the province now infested at some level or state. This means the province could face a dramatic reduction in the long-term sus- tainable timber supply.

Can the Minister of Forests tell this House what steps are being taken to assist the communities in the heartlands affected by this epi- demic? Hon. M. de Jong: It is true that communities from Vanderhoof to Kamloops are now in the midst of this devastating infestation, and it is growing. It's seven timber supply areas, a number of tree farm licences. As the member knows, we embarked a couple of years ago on a program of concentrated harvesting activity on the leading edge of the infestation. We cre- ated emergency management zones that would allow for quicker access to the leading edge of the infestation.

Though there has been some impact, it has been a lim- ited impact, and the infestation continues to grow. The chief forester released his report, and it is a very troubling report. According to that report, inside of three years 50 percent of the pine in the affected ar- eas could be dead. The AAC in the affected areas could be reduced, 15 years from now, by upwards of 19 or 20 percent. We are going to have to, in my view, increase har- vest activity, and that is one of the options that will be considered at the symposium the Premier has called for later in the month of November — I think November 12.

There are strategies in place, and they'll be dis- cussed at the symposium — how to improve those strategies and take account of what is the worst infesta- tion in the country's history. GOVERNMENT AID FOR B.C. CATTLE INDUSTRY P. Nettleton: B.C. rancher Sharon Robertson, who I introduced to the House today, has taken issue with the minister's statement that the main solution to the ranchers' and producers' dilemma is to have the border open or to fill out yet more forms for slow and meagre federal assistance.

This is what she has to say about that: "In my own personal situation, the border cannot be opened tomorrow. It will do nothing for my situa- tion or any other feeder member who purchased cattle.

I am still out $49,000 for all of the operating money I put into those cattle, still out the shortage of the feeder loan and the loss of my 5 percent deposit, and with this I will soon be out of business." I ask of the minister: from the time the border opens, in his estimation, how long will ranchers like Sharon Robertson — here today — have to somehow survive before business recovers to the level prior to the mad cow disaster and shutdown? In other words, has the ministry estimated how long the recovery will take, and what will the provincial effort be towards alleviating their financial hardships? Hon.

J. van Dongen: Certainly, I've spoken the last two days about some of the details of the provincial ini- tiatives, including opening the border, which as I've said

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7673 is the only permanent solution. We are working through an adjustment period. I want to assure the member and I want to assure the ranchers who are visiting today that we as a province are making major financial commit- ments to the assistance of the ranching community. We have sought to maximize federal dollars; that is correct. I want to say to this House that we have budg- eted for and expect to pay out up to $25 million under the CAIS program.

We have budgeted for and expect to pay out, under the BSE recovery program and the pro- posed national cull cow program, another $10 million. We expect that if ranchers fill out their application forms in a timely manner, they will receive hard cash from both the provincial and federal governments. We have seen cheques issued. We are issuing cheques un- der the CAIS program. I can only encourage ranchers to fill in their applications to work with us. I was in Vanderhoof on… [1430] Interjection. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Let's listen to the answer. Hon. J. van Dongen: …August 27.

I met with about 350 ranchers there. I encouraged them to look at all of the programs. We had a workshop in Vanderhoof on September 20 to assist them, and I'm certainly more than willing to meet with Sharon Robertson and Denise Fawcett and the other ranchers today, with their mem- ber, right after question period. We will do whatever we can to help get this cash out. There are major commitments. We will get it out to the ranching community. Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, a moment ago I inad- vertently misled the House.

The symposium I was refer- ring to takes place on November 21, not November 12. [End of question period.] Tabling Documents Hon. L. Reid: I rise to table the annual report on cross-government expenditures under the September 2000 federal-provincial-territorial early childhood de- velopment agreement for the period March 31, 2002, to March 31, 2003. Early this spring British Columbia will be the only jurisdiction in Canada to have a provincial snapshot of the learning readiness of every single five-year-old in our province. My thanks to Dr.

Clyde Hertzman for his outstanding research in this area, and I know we will continue to go forward from the base of the best possi- ble science. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: I call continued second reading debate on Bill 63. Second Reading of Bills YOUTH JUSTICE ACT (continued) T. Christensen: Just prior to lunch I was speaking in favour of what Bill 63, the Youth Justice Act, will do in terms of providing the framework for addressing youth justice issues in the province.

The gist of my comments has been that what Bill 63 does is provide this broad framework and what I believe is a broad and compre- hensive foundation that will then allow government, on a broad scale, to address youth justice issues. In listening to the debate over the last couple of days, I did certainly take notice of comments by a number of members. I guess what stood out to some extent was some of the comments of the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant.

She spoke at some length about the need to support youth, and I think all mem- bers of this House agree that we need to find the means to support youth, particularly where it's in the interests of…. It always is in the interests of society to assist youth in overcoming particular challenges they have at one point so that they can become productive members of society. That is certainly the case, perhaps in many w a y s m o r e t h a n i t ' s e m p h a s i z e d i n t h e c a s e o f y o u t h who come into conflict with the law.

I was struck in particular by some of the specific comments that the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant brought forward about some of the groups she had talked to. She referred to the Victoria Boys and Girls Club. What she said was that any approach…. What the club had said was that any approach to youth justice has to be a multifaceted approach, and I couldn't agree more. It has to include education, incarceration and support, and the most important piece of that is intensive support for the youth, the family and the community. Certainly, if we look at the Youth Justice Act and

section 28 of the act in particular, it's clear that what this bill does is provide a broad mandate to the minister to develop and provide programs that will broadly support youth. The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant brought forth comments from the B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police that suggest that we don't gain any- thing by simply putting youth in custody. Again, that's certainly in line with what this bill does. This bill pro- vides custody as an option where that's appropriate, but custody goes hand in hand with a focus on reha- bilitation.

Anyone who's at all familiar with our youth custody facilities will know that a major emphasis in those types of facilities is rehabilitation of the youth who find themselves there. [1435] F u r t h e r t o t h a t p o i n t , w h a t B i l l 6 3 d o e s i s s u p p o r t and confirm the role of the Ministry of Children and Family Development in providing youth justice ser- vices right from the start — in terms of youth probation officers and the critically important role they play in reviewing the circumstances that a youth in conflict with the law finds himself or herself in and providing

7674 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 assistance to the court in dealing with that youth — through to the actual treatment programs, for lack of a better word, that the youth can benefit from, whether they have a custodial sentence or otherwise. I think the one thing that was sorely lacking in terms of the comments that the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant made was…. There was no discussion of pub- lic safety, and that's really what we must….

While we strive to deal with the challenges that youth in conflict with the law face, we have to recognize that a justice system is also there to ensure that there's protection of the public. What Bill 63 does is provide a very critical balance between those two needs when we're dealing with youth justice. Bill 63, as I've said, provides the foundation for doing both. Given the concerns, I think if the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant reads through her comments in Hansard and realizes what she said when she spoke to this bill, she should have no difficulty when it comes time to vote on this bill to support it.

The reality here is that Bill 63 provides the foundation for everything we need to be doing to properly deal with youth justice issues here in the province of British Columbia. I'm incredibly proud to be able to stand in the House in support of Bill 63. Certainly, those clear- thinking members of this House will support it whole- heartedly, and we should have unanimous support for this bill here in this House. R. Visser: I wanted to spend some time today talk- ing about Bill 63 and the Youth Justice Act.

Unlike some of my previous colleagues, I have actually little or no experience — personal, as a lawyer or otherwise — with the youth justice system. I was a stellar young man growing up and continue on those paths of good- ness. But it is something that has been drawn to my at- tention on a number of occasions, and it is one of those topics that is in the public domain on an all-too-regular basis.

I think it often is one of those things that is a headline-grabber — something that gets talked about around the coffee rooms, coffee shops and in other places, the living rooms of British Columbia and in- deed across Canada. What are we going to do about youth crime? What are we going to do about those young kids who get into trouble, and how are we go- ing to help solve some of those problems? When are we going to get tough on crime?

I think this act actually speaks a little bit to that by addressing some discrepancies or eliminating the dis- parity between the federal and provincial statutes, and brings us into line. It gives us a chance in this chamber to just spend a few minutes collectively thinking and talking about something that I think we see oftentimes. Whether it's young people street racing or sex offence– related crimes with young people, there are some is- sues that have provincial consequences.

I think it's okay that we as a Legislature start to come to terms with the notion of serious consequences for serious offences and that we do have the opportunity to see some of these young offenders spend some time in a custody facility. [1440] Fortunately and unfortunately, I have had the op- portunity to tour a facility. We recently closed the Lakeview Youth Custody Centre in Campbell River. It was a place I'd visited a number of times and met with the staff, and we had been through it and met with some of the youth that were there.

We spent a lot of time talking about the programs and what they were giving to those youth. There are some rather startling statistics out there that speak to the capacity we have in this province to house youth in custody. The number is now half of what it was in 1997. In fact, the number of kids on pro- b at i o n i s h al f o f wh at i t was i n 19 97 , s o we h ad s o m e extra capacity that we had to take out of the system. When you have only 13 kids in a centre that can hold 40 or 50, you are not using your plant wisely.

We needed to address some of those issues and try to pro- vide services in a more managed and effective way. Now, nobody likes the notion of closing, but I think there were some important efficiencies to gain there. One of the tracks that our country, our nation, has taken over the past few years is to explore concepts of alternative justice, to provide a broader range of alter- natives to regular incarceration.

Restorative justice, healing circles and all of those kinds of things we do where we connect victims and offenders and families and offenders, and we bring them together in a suppor- tive environment, have helped us to produce those reductions in numbers of youth in custody. Those kinds of things are important to us. We need the broad spectrum of tools. There are going to be of- fenders out there. We see them in the newspapers; we see the crimes they commit in the newspapers. From time to time there is a sense out there in the public that w e a r e n ' t d o i n g e n o u g h t o b e t o u g h o n c r i m e .

S o i t ' s okay to move, in some cases, from an offence structure that does not provide the state or the justice or the courts with the ability to pull people or hold people in custody. It's okay to go from that place to a place where they may have 60 or 90 days to intervene with those youth. In our facilities today, as we have consolidated them in the Ministry of Children and Family Develop- ment and the youth detention centres, we do have those supports. We do have the counselling. We do have the ability to intervene. We do have the ability to reach out to them in a number of ways.

The numbers of these kids that come into the sys- tem, who have been touched by alcohol or drugs, is incredibly high. The numbers of these kids who may have a dual diagnosis, where there is an alcohol or drug problem in combination with a mental health issue, is high, and we need a way and a place to inter- vene or to access or to provide those supports. Perhaps it's going to be that ten-, 30-, 60- or 90-day period where, in some of these kids' cases, we can actually reach some of them with those supports, where we can actually make a difference in their lives, where we can actually steer them a little bit.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7675 You know, in these facilities they have schools. Maybe that's the place where some of these kids get back to school. Maybe settling some of them down for a few days provides them that opportunity to slow down, think about life and then try to make some achievements. We don't try to teach them physics, al- though some of them are perfectly fine at physics.

But you do try to intervene in things like wood shop, read- ing skills, literacy skills — all of those things that some of these youth have missed in their formative days, in the days leading up to the point where they find them- selves in trouble. I think youth justice is something we need to spend quite a bit more time thinking about and talking about as a government and certainly as a province. I appreci- ate the work that the Minister of Children and Family Development has done.

He's been up to my area and visited with those folks, and he continues to be in- volved in the process of making the youth justice sys- tem more supportive.

He continually tries to reach out to those providers and challenge them to be innovative and creative. [1445] In the separation of the Ministry of Children and Family Development into authorities and the new ap- proach to the aboriginal authority for children and families and protective services, there's an opportunity here to introduce a cultural component — really, some- thing that I think as a province we should always be concerned about and always be talking about — to the number of young people in our system that need inter- vention who are of aboriginal origin.

We need, per- haps, to think about new cultural ways to intervene, new ways to approach them. I think we've got a long way to go — there is no doubt in my mind — but we're well on our way. Anytime we get the opportunity to harmonize or to be compatible with federal law that makes sense for British Columbia and for British Columbia statutes, which gives us more tools to intervene with youth and to provide for safer and more secure communities, that's a good thing. I think that's something we should pursue. I'm pleased to support this bill.

I think we'll have lots more to say on this subject over the next few years in this province. We've done a great deal of work. The work that the Solicitor General has done, the Attorney General has done, the Minister of Children and Family Development has done — and certainly the Minister of State for Early Childhood Development, where we're intervening as early as possible with youth — is all providing some long-term solutions to these problems. We're generating a long-term vision, because we know there isn't one right answer to this stuff.

There isn't one thing we can do today that will solve all these problems tomorrow. They're going to take time, they're going to take creativity, and they're going to take inno- vation. They're going to take a collaborative approach by the government across ministries and, frankly, across jurisdictions — federal and provincial and now down into first nations and municipal governance. I think that if we can all work on these issues together over time, we'll build a better system that serves our communities and our youth very appropriately. Thanks for the opportunity. B.

Penner: I'm pleased to have the opportunity to participate in this debate. I've had a chance now to lis- ten to the remarks of a number of my colleagues, and I want to salute them for their thoughtfulness in ap- proaching this very challenging topic of youth crime. It's one reason I'm so pleased that this government has seen fit to not just talk about youth crime but to actu- ally do something about it.

As indicated, this bill, Bill 63, will provide our law enforcement agencies and the courts yet another tool in their arsenal to try and get a h a n d l e o n w h a t i n s o m e c o m m u n i t i e s i s a v e r y d i r e situation. Specifically, I'd like to just start with an overview of the act for those people in the general public who may be just tuning into the debate.

As you may know, the Youth Justice Act, Bill 63, repeals the existing Young Offenders (British Columbia) Act, makes changes to the youth provisions of the Correction Act and consoli- dates relevant provisions from those acts into one new Youth Justice Act written specifically for young offend- ers. Three main objectives are fulfilled by this act. First, it ensures that our provincial statutes are consistent with federal terminology and are up to date with cur- rent practice.

Second, the act parallels the federal legis- lation by ensuring that serious consequences are avail- able as a sentencing option for six serious provincial statute offences that previously could only attract non- custodial sentences. Third, the legislation increases the maximum custody sentence available for serious pro- vincial statute offences, where the maximum penalty for an adult is more than six months, from a maximum of 30 days to a maximum of 90 days.

By focusing on the specific needs of youth in con- flict with the law while increasing the use of custody for the most serious provincial statute offences, this bill balances the need to focus on rehabilitation of young persons while providing increased consequences for those youth who pose a risk to public safety — another of the actions taken by this government to ensure we have safe streets and communities. [1450] There have been other initiatives undertaken by this government.

I'll touch on them in due course dur- ing my remarks today, but I want to just reflect on what it really means to be able to impose a custodial sentence for a number of these offences I've just men- tioned, as opposed to mere probation. Mr. Speaker, as you and others will likely know, I spent a fair bit of time in Provincial Court, not as an accused but as a participant in the process as legal counsel. A major part of my legal practice involved young persons alleged to have committed various forms of wrongdoing.

It was my observation that for many, but not all, of the young people, a period of pro- bation was seen as a slap on the wrist. It was seen as

7676 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 getting away with it — whatever it was they were al- leged to have done. So I think there is a salutary effect that will come from young people knowing that for certain types of offences now, probation is not the only form of sentence available to them. There was a Provincial Court judge that I spent a fair bit of time with before — his name is Derragh Vamplew, now retired — who I thought was a very w i s e a n d a s t u t e m a n .

H e h a d a n a b i l i t y t o s i z e u p a young offender, look them in the eye, judge them by their demeanour and at certain times impose a jail sen- tence on them when they were not expecting it — not a long one, not lock them up and throw away the key, not that kind of approach. I can recall one occasion when I was there repre- senting a young person who, among other things, re- fused to take off his baseball cap in the courtroom and appeared to be joking with his friends from school who'd come along to watch and to — I don't know — cheer him on or support him.

Judge Vamplew realized what was happening — that this young person, rather than taking the process seriously, was actually showing off to his friends and thumbing his nose at authority. He said to me: "Mr. Penner, we'll stand this matter down, and we'll resume this afternoon at 3 o'clock. Mr. Sheriff, please take Mr. Penner's client into custody." Well, you should have seen the look on that young person's face. He couldn't believe he was actually being taken into custody and locked up in a jail cell, but that's what happened to him.

It didn't take more than a few seconds for that brave façade, that youthful bravado to crumble and collapse and disintegrate right in front of his friends' eyes. That had a very salutary effect. About an hour later I made my way back into cells to interview my client and get some instructions from him, and he was in tears. Just a few moments before, he had been acting brave and tough, like he wasn't afraid of a thing in the world, and here he was in a jail cell, not a very com- fortable place to be — not in shackles but just sitting in a jail cell — and he was crying.

I asked him why he was crying, and he said: "Because I can't do anything I want to do now. " He had lost control over his life, at least for that temporary moment. Without divulging too much, I think my comments to him went something like this: "If you're not careful with how you conduct the rest of your life, you will lose ultimate control over the rest of your life, because you can expect to see a lot more jail cells like this one if you carry on with your current attitude and conduct." Well, when that young person was led back out into the courtroom at 3 p.m., his friends had left.

He was left to stand alone in front of the judge, and he had a very different attitude about what he had done and about the process that he was involved in, being before the courts. The effect of these amendments in Bill 63 is that in the future, judges will have that opportunity for a greater range of offences to impose a custodial sentence — whether it's one day or an afternoon or a couple of days — on a young offender to get their attention, to take that smirk off their face when they're trying to show off to their friends about how uncaring or uncon- cerned they are. This will give judges an important tool.

I know, back in the 1970s, it was fashionable in England for people to talk about a short, sharp shock to catch people's attention, and I think there is some merit in that attitude. It doesn't work for all. I'm not advocat- ing a one-size-fits-all solution.

But this legislation, Bill 63, provides the flexibility so that in certain circum- stances, judges can size up an individual and deter- mine if in fact they think it would be beneficial for the young person to say: "I think you're going to spend some time away from your friends, locked up in a jail cell, so you can be alone with your own personal thoughts and decide what you want for the rest of your life." [1455] I think that is a beneficial response to certain types of offences and for certain types of young people. My studied view is that that does not take place often enough in our system.

Too often young people are given probation repeatedly for consecutive offences so that they get accustomed to breaking the law, they get accustomed to getting a slap on the wrist, and they get accustomed to being reinforced by the joking gestures of their friends and getting that peer support for: "Look what I'm able to do and get away with it and thumb my nose at the world." If we can interrupt that process before they get too accustomed to the praise of their peers for breaking the law and thumbing their noses at our judicial system, I think we can set those young people on a better course for the rest of their lives.

That's one reason I'm so proud to stand here today and support this initiative. I heard the previous speaker, the member for North Island, talk about some of the programs that young people may or may not be entitled to — or that are made available to them when they are in custody. There are situations where, in fact, at these detention centres they receive education — often better than what they were receiving before they were incarcer- ated. Why is that? Very often they tend not to attend school when they're out amongst their friends and get- ting into trouble. They skip out.

They'll miss extended periods of school. When they're incarcerated, they have really no option but to attend class. I know a little bit about this, because for the last few years of my father's teaching career, he taught at a juvenile detention centre in the Chilliwack River valley. He told me there was a remarkable difference in atti- tude that he saw even from the junior high school he used to teach at in the Chilliwack area to the juvenile detention camp.

I anticipated — and frankly, the rest of our family was a little concerned — that my father would have a more difficult time handling the students i n t h e j u v e n i l e c e n t r e t h a n h e d i d i n t h e j u n i o r h i g h school he had taught at for many years. In fact, the students in the juvenile detention centre in some cases had a better attitude. Their choice was that you partici- pate in the classroom activities and stay on track and

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7677 focused in terms of the school work, or your alternative is to be locked up in a cabin by yourself, separated from your peers. There is no penalty greater for a young person than to be separated from their peers and their friends. Those students my father dealt with were well mo- tivated to focus on their books and the assignments and to do well at school. For some of them it was a life- changing experience. Again, I don't advocate a lengthy custodial sentence for all young people.

Hopefully, the majority of them get the message early on that it's not acceptable and not conducive to their own self-interest to engage in that type of illegal activity that gets them in trouble. If it takes a longer sentence, then I support that in order to get that message through. The Solicitor General talked about other things that he has done. Frankly, I was shocked listening to question period. The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant was somehow criticizing the Solicitor General and this gov- ernment for introducing new measures to get a handle on youth crime.

I understand that there are bleeding hearts out there who think we shouldn't impede any- one in their desires to do whatever it is they care to do. Well, I'm not one of those people. I believe there are limits, and I believe society requires us to uphold stan- dards. Without standards and without those standards being enforced, we lose a civil society that we all desire. I was just appalled to hear the member for Vancouver– Mount Pleasant and, frankly, the Leader of the Opposi- tion criticizing the government for trying to get a han- dle on crime.

Now, this isn't the only tool we've introduced over the last two years or so. I remember that shortly after the election, this government introduced, in the sum- mer of 2001, a new piece of legislation that allows for legal action against the parents of young people who have committed various crimes where those parents have not been sufficiently responsible in terms of moni- toring the conduct and activity of their children. Again, there are complaints from some quarters, usually from the same quarters we're hearing from today, but it was one more step towards getting a handle on a problem. It's a tool.

The bill was called the Parental Responsibility Act, and the act functions pretty much the way it's de- scribed. I understand from media accounts that there may now be a court action underway in the province relying on that piece of legislation we brought in — just one more tool to try and get control over what could be a serious problem by making parents that much more responsible for the conduct of their young people. [1500] PRIME-BC was an initiative of this government in this session, back in the spring. I don't think it's re- ceived the kind of publicity it deserves.

It's really bringing policing into the modern era. Today we talk about information technology. Well, information is absolutely crucial if we're going to effectively respond, in a timely fashion, to crime. Criminals don't wait. Or- ganized crime doesn't wait to hold government meet- ings or to do all kinds of long-range planning or to get permission to operate across municipal boundaries.

This tool we've introduced through PRIME-BC will allow police to obtain information from beyond their own municipal jurisdictions and boundaries to respond quickly to crime and keep up with the conduct of cer- tain evildoers, to quote a certain U.S. politician, before they can inflict more harm on our society. I support that. Our government is finding the resources necessary to implement the modernized computer-based system so that right in their own police vehicles, police officers will be able to have access to that information in a real- time way.

Before I conclude my remarks on this topic, I'd like to talk about one other aspect of Bill 63. Specifically, Bill 63 amends

section 177 of the School Act, which for many years has prohibited certain types of activities on school property. I think the general public supports extra restrictions on what can take place on school property for obvious reasons: we treasure our young people, and they are our greatest resource as a prov- ince. Until now, for various violations under the School Act, the maximum penalty consisted of probation or community service or fines and/or 30 days in custody.

With this amendment, we are now increasing the pen- a l t y t o 3 0 d a y s i n c u s t o d y f o r v i o l a t i o n s u n d e r t h e School Act for things such as sexual exploitation or gang activity. One of the more troubling cases I was involved with as a lawyer prior to ending up here was representing and working on behalf of a troubled female young per- son who was the victim of repeated sexual exploitation at her school by kids older than her. My client had a mental disability and was easily taken advantage of.

It was, frankly, heartbreaking to hear about what was happening to her essentially beyond her control. This bill, in many ways, I see as a tribute to my cli- ent, and I'm very eager to vote in favour of this bill if it comes to a vote, if for no other reason than to — how- ever late in the day — provide some assistance for people similar to my client, who were exploited in ways that most of us don't even want to imagine. So I think it's about time that we get on and we support a bill like this. I'm sorry that the opposition maybe feels differ- ently.

Hopefully, they will have a change of heart and realize that it's time to leave politics aside, leave parti- sanship aside and do what's right for our young people by providing them with an extra measure of protection while we still can — before it's too late, before their lives are ruined, before they embark on a life of crimi- nal wrongdoing. It's time to do the right thing, and I call on the opposition to acknowledge that fact. S. Brice: I, too, take pleasure in standing in support of this legislation.

I'd like to commend the member for Chilliwack-Kent for his very comprehensive overview of the legislation and also the anecdotal contributions he made to actually put a face on this legislation. It is interesting how many of us have risen to speak to this particular bill. One always asks when con-

7678 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 fronted with legislation: who are the stakeholders? Well, in this particular case, I would say the stake- holders who have a stake in this particular bill are the youth, their parents, the teachers, the police, the correc- tions community and then the public at large. Youth obviously do, by dint of whom this legislation is di- rected toward. [1505] As has been mentioned, the youth who find them- selves in conflict with the law are starting down a path, which we as a caring and civilized society must deal with, with all seriousness.

We cannot afford to toss any young people out. Every single one of them needs the full measure of the public resources in order to save their lives. This particular legislation, of course, deals with an aspect of youth in conflict with the law that is of very serious nature and therefore provides for some very serious consequences. Some of the issues that are brought to our attention in terms of youth in serious conflict with the law deal with very, very high-risk behaviour and some very nasty consequences. Youth who are in this position have to be given the widest range of consequences in order to correct it.

Parents have obviously got a big interest in this legislation. All of us who have raised children know that even good kids do dumb things. I think that for those kinds of situations, generally speaking, the fam- ily, community policing and all other resources are there to support them when they start to stray and to assist their families in helping them make the very best of their lives. One can only imagine what it must be like to be a parent who has a child that has been charged with a very serious offence.

For parents, it must be an abso- lutely stabbing experience to realize that your child — the child that you held in your arms, the baby that came into this world looking to all intents and pur- poses like every other baby — has somehow gone through some evolution, some experiences, and has come out and is doing things that are dreadfully hurt- ful to other people. I can't think of anything, as a par- ent, that would be more devastating.

For those parents as well, we need to have this type of legislation so the law can assist in bringing this youth into some kind of compliance so that the family doesn't have to endure the absolutely hideous, hideous consequence of having to stand beside some of their family members when they ultimately — either as a youth or as they grow into adult life — are confronted in a courtroom with a charge of manslaughter, murder or some other offence. We see this. We see families being absolutely dragged into the depths, having to stand beside a family member who has committed some of the worst offences against society.

Parents definitely have a stake in this legislation. Teachers have a stake in this legislation.

As a for- mer teacher myself, I know it can be heartbreaking when you see a kid going off the rails and you know that you have to tap into all the resources possible in order to make sure this kid does not continue to esca- late until eventually some kind of act is committed that cannot be just papered over — that in fact they've gone off and committed some truly negative offence. [1510] Teachers will find now that this protection, which will allow persons who are officially trespassing on school property to be dealt with seriously, will be of great assistance to teachers.

School boards, I would think, would find this particular legislation very help- ful, because they know, too, that they've got to protect the children in the schools and that there are people — perhaps even other youths — wanting to come onto the school property in order to approach young people, particularly in crimes where they will be sexually ex- ploited. Up until now, the police, school boards and others have not been able to invoke the full force of the law, so this legislation will be of assistance to them.

Certainly, the police will be interested in the fact that we as a Legislature have taken seriously their calls for tougher penalties for the very serious crimes that youth commit. If you talk to the police, they're commit- ted to community policing. They know where their resources have to go, but they also know they've got some real tough characters out there who, if the police are not supported by the assistance of being able to give some real tough sentences out…. I mean, these are not even what I would put into the category of tough sentences.

They are another opportunity, yet another tool to allow the courts to assist the police in keeping our communities safe. I want to commend the Solicitor General. I've had many discussions on my community of Saanich South and the Saanich police, and I know the Solicitor Gen- eral totally supports community policing. He knows this is the best way to harness all of the tools within the community to support all members — the youth and the adults and children. Obviously, the corrections branch will have good interest in this legislation and, I dare say, will support what we are attempting to do here.

I say "attempting," because absolutely no docu- ment…. We don't simply take printed words, all well- intended, spend time deliberating on them and ulti- mately pass them in this Legislature and feel that's a p anac e a. I f o nl y l i f e we r e t ha t s i m p l e . O b v i o u s l y , i t i s not that simple. It is far more complex than that. This document will provide yet one more opportunity for that safety net as we try to make our communities safer for all citizens. Finally, as I say, the public at large will have an interest in this.

You can point to statistics and say that youth crime is going down, but the very nature of some of the crime that is taking place — the severity of it — sends a signal out to the whole community that perhaps they're not safe. I find that seniors in particular have a perception or a reality, depending on the area in which they live, that they're not safe. If people don't feel safe, it's almost as bad as them not being safe, because then they start to make their world smaller, to lock themselves into their homes, to be fearful about going out, to be reluctant to interface

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7679 with youth. They sense there aren't serious conse- quences for serious acts. I think that portion of the pub- lic that we represent, the seniors, should be heartened by the fact that we have taken their concerns seriously and are putting more tools out there for those dealing with these youth who are causing serious crime. I see these amendments as appropriate, balanced and timely. It has been mentioned that we are harmo- nizing now with federal legislation.

Just as the docu- ment passed here doesn't guarantee anything, even harmonizing it with yet another level of government's legislation doesn't guarantee anything either. It's ena- bling, though, and it will allow, particularly for those situations where youth are incarcerated, for some other p r o f e s s i o n a l t o m a k e c o n t a c t .

A s k i d s g o o f f t h e r a i l s , you never know when that moment is going to be that somebody can speak to them in a way that they will hear. [1515] I found, when I was chairing the school board, that when kids got into trouble and you'd bring all the peo- ple together who had been involved, there were often- times the parents, the probation officer, the teacher, the principal, the counsellor, the family doctor. Many, many people had touched this young person before they got into a situation, before they were being sus- pended from school.

Sadly, it's the coordination of these professionals that is lacking. They're oftentimes working in isolation. I know that a lot of work is being done through the Ministry of Children and Family Development. By put- ting the services out into the community, there's a greater chance that all those who are interested in the future and well-being of our youth will have a chance to work together. The amendments will, of course, as has been mentioned, give another opportunity for those who want to make a difference in the youth's life to come in and interact with yet another level in the corrections system.

Public safety is hugely important. When you talk to folks, they want to not only be safe but also to feel safe. We want to keep our children safe, want a sense of well-being. That is probably as much as anything a health issue too. I mean, if our community feels safe, then everybody experiences a higher level of wellness and security. Whenever we hear of any of these hideous situations, be it a youth or be it an adult who has perpe- trated some kind of a violent crime, there is a reverbera- tion throughout the entire community. Everyone's life is altered, oftentimes negatively.

After one of these events and after some publicity, there needs to be a coming-together. The community needs to feel that not only is this youth going to have a chance to get the kind of help they need, but also the community needs to feel safer. Some of these young people who have had lots of interface with profession- als get pretty hardened. They can slough off a lot. They cannot react to all of the usual efforts made to try and assist them. When that is the case, there must be an opportunity for a longer period of incarceration, and this will allow for that.

Safer schools, safer communities, safer streets — that is a commitment we have made to the public. In its own way and in harmony with a lot of other initiatives we have taken, this legislation before us assists in that. That is why I will be pleased to support it. I urge all members of this House — both on the government side and the opposition — to come together and support our legislation, which will give a greater sense of safety to our public. M. Hunter: Mr. Speaker, I've got a bit of a frog in my throat today, so if I have to pause for water, I hope you'll excuse me.

I'm actually quite pleased to stand here today to address an issue that has to do with the matter of pub- lic safety in our province and indeed in our country. I was quite offended about question period today and the trivialization of this very important issue that the opposition member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant put on this subject. The timing of my intervention is, from my point of view, appropriate, given that trivialization and, I thought, shocking intervention an hour or so ago in this chamber. [1520] We are debating the Youth Justice Act, Bill 63.

The reason we're doing it, of course, is because the gov- ernment of Canada, in April of this year, amended the federal Young Offenders Act and replaced it with the Youth Criminal Justice Act. That allows opportunity for us here in British Columbia to update our own leg- islation, to bring it consistent with the new federal bill and its terminology and indeed, and perhaps more importantly, with current practice in the area of deal- ing with youth offences.

In a sense, I'm not sure if I should say I feel uncom- fortable, but I will say that I must either have lived a sheltered life or I came from a generation and a place and circumstances — family and economic — where youth crime, in my recollection, wasn't an issue. So it's a little difficult, quite frankly, for me to understand some of the forces at play in our society that have cre- ated the problem we have and why we have to deal with this apparently on a continuing basis. I mean, my recollection of crime was the odd stolen apple from across the neighbour's fence.

It was, I will admit — and this is not a confessional…. But I will confess that I may have broken a window or two with a cricket ball, be- cause that was the sport I played in my youth. I may have run off and left some poor homeowner with a bill that I should have paid. An Hon. Member: Mid on or mid off? M. Hunter: The member asked mid on or mid off. That shows his knowledge of cricket. I'm grateful for that. In my case, it was probably silly mid on, member. I guess as young people we are rambunctious. We all probably did things our parents would have died over if they had known about. Most of us got a lesson.

We learned lessons with relatively little personal effect or personal injury and, hopefully, limited impact on

7680 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 others in our society or our families. The fact is that more and more today, we see that perhaps those days I remember through rose-coloured glasses a little bit…. Today I don't think young people who are growing up in our society in many cases could stand where I am 45 or 50 years later and say that what I experienced was their experience.

We've had members of this govern- ment do substantial and quite alarming work on bully- ing in schools, for example, and recommendations made on that issue — a situation which goes way, way beyond anything that I think any of us would have imagined until we saw the work our caucus colleagues did in looking at that report. We've had to take action. The Solicitor General has had to take action during this term of our government to deal with street racing, which in the lower mainland seems to be more and more of a problem with younger and younger people.

There are drugs on the street that, frankly, weren't invented during my childhood. That's literally true. The chemicals were not being put to- gether the way they are today. These are disturbing trends. They are trends which have troubled Canadians for well over a decade. The federal Young Offenders Act, which has been amended and repealed and replaced, has been the subject of a very intense national debate on the subject of how to deal with youth violence and youth crime. British Co- lumbians, as you know, have been very well engaged and intelligently engaged in that longstanding national debate.

In preparing for my intervention on this bill, I did a little bit of research. I find that we are not alone in this country. Those who are more familiar with the issues, methodologies, problems and all the issues that go around youth offences will know what I've just said: this is an issue elsewhere. It's always interesting to see what other jurisdictions are doing. Certainly, in the United Kingdom in the last few years, there's been a tremendous attack on youth violence and youth crime.

In the United Kingdom there is quite a stress placed on the importance of involvement in helping youth, not just incarcerating youth — and I want to come to that as part of the important feature of the bill we're debat- ing — but the involvement by members of the public to assist youth and to reduce their offending in their own neighbourhoods. [1525] I g u e s s , t o g o b a c k t o w h a t I s a i d a b o u t m y o w n background, family relationships were different in those days. My mom did not go out of the house to work. She worked at home.

Today I don't know what the exact proportion is, but a significant majority of mothers are working mothers. There is no question that has changed the atmosphere and the environment in which many children have grown up. My own stepchildren were latchkey kids not so long ago in North Vancouver, and thankfully, apart from the odd scrape and bruise and perhaps the occa- sional fight with a tree or two, my stepkids and my own kids have survived those difficult years and come through it. I sometimes wonder. There but for the grace of God go….

I could have gone down the road that we're talking about today with my own family. There's no question that this is a transnational is- sue. It's a national issue. It's a transnational issue. It's an international issue. What I found in my research on the subject is that where these subjects are being dealt with intelligently, intervention with young people who commit crime before they become persistent offenders is a methodology which is being used and which, ac- cording to what I've been able to read, is actually com- ing up with some success.

We know from evidence that early intervention with young people works. It intuitively makes sense. If you give a child guidance, if the child is surrounded by values that are anti-crime and so on, there is a better chance those people will grow up with a set of values that does not lead them into the kinds of trouble that some young people get into. Indeed, there is evidence that suggests that what makes a difference to young people is the type and quality of the interventions they receive — whether it be from family, from neighbours or from educators.

I think that's a lesson we need to learn in the context of this debate that we're having this afternoon. The other conclusion I have reached in my own thinking and reading about this issue is that sentencing for young people can't just be about punishment. Help- ing a young person to tackle their offending behaviour is tough on them and should be tough on them, but certainly it is in all our interests to pursue that.

I know many members have spoken to the impor- tant changes in this bill from the current act that would allow us to provide for stiffer sentences for youth who are offending under British Columbia statutes as op- posed to federal statutes, and I think that's important too. I listened carefully to what the member for Chilli- wack-Kent had to say, and I think the lessons that he spoke about and his experience in the courtroom are, without question, important. There is a time; there is a place. There is a size of hammer, which is important.

I think we need to be intelligent and the judiciary needs to be intelligent, in the way that member described, in applying those hammers. What we are looking at and what I am pleased about with this bill is that it does reinforce the side of youth offences which talks to the issue of helping youth overcome whatever it is that's creating the prob- lem. I still believe, after all my years, that people gen- erally know good from evil.

When you give them a choice and when you set that choice in a framework and in an environment of consequences, people do prefer not to have consequences or to have good con- sequences rather than bad. [1530] Actually, the new federal act imposes on us the opportunity and the necessity to change or to look at our own approach and to not only recommit to better sentencing, more intelligent sentencing and tougher sentencing where it's needed but also to look at the whole issue of education. This bill — and it's important that we recognize it — conveys the message that incar-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7681 ceration of youth who are in conflict with the law is not the only option that's open to us. The bill provides for supervision, amongst other things, by adults who are capable of and trained in the art and science of super- vising youth who have difficulties with the law. It pro- vides for residency, putting youths who are in trouble in domestic circumstances that can perhaps help to provide those kinds of values and the environment that most of us fortunately enjoy as young people. It provides for employment.

It talks quite exten- sively about the employment opportunities for young people and how employers and they, as employees, would be expected to behave in order to help them get o n w i t h t h e i r l i v e s i n a m o r e p r o d u c t i v e w a y . I t e n - courages a return to school, where appropriate, and training. Again, intuitively, this does not seem to be way out of line. I would like just to quote from a speech given in January of this year by Lord Warner, who at the time was the chairman of the Youth Justice Board for Eng- land and Wales.

He said: "What we now know abso- lutely clearly is that education deficits in young people are closely associated with offending, and conversely we know that engaging young people in education, training or employment programs is one of the strong- est protective factors available for reducing the chances of offending and re-offending." This a man who is extensively experienced and very well recognized in this whole field of youth justice and who was a senior executive with the Youth Justice Board in the United Kingdom until he became part of Mr. Blair's government in the summertime.

He goes on to say: "…our research has identified the close associa- tion between offending and levels of education en- gagement." The members who served on our safe schools task force will be interested to know that he talks about the new Safer Schools Partnerships that exist in England and Wales, which provide 100 dedi- cated police officers in secondary schools and their feeder primary schools in areas experiencing high lev- els of offending. What we are doing in terms of our encouragement for education and training is based on experience and research elsewhere, as well as in Canada.

Lord Warner says: "…young people are worried about physical in- timidation in or on the way to school, which must make learning more difficult and increase the risk of them staying away from schools." The evidence shows that staying away from schools, whether it's because of that particular reason — that the child is scared to go to school — or if there is some other incentive to stay away from school — bored with the class, or some- body's got something better to do…. It's those circum- stances that certainly appear to be a breeding ground for, if not encouraging, youth offences.

These non-incarceration methods that this bill rein- forces and encourages…. It encourages the devolution, in these positive ways, to authorities, both aboriginal and regional, and I think we know that aboriginal populations tend to have statistical indicators that are worse than in the general population. Getting these kids back into environments in which they are com- fortable and putting them into environments in which they can become comfortable are important ways in which we are going to improve the whole situation around youth offending.

This bill also provides and stresses important steps that, again, offer alternatives to incarceration: making restitution to the victims — something that's not novel, but it's important; the provision of community service under supervision, and only for those who are obvi- ously judged capable of providing community services safely — again, two other ways of instilling values into people who, I would argue, need some instillation of values.

If they had them, they wouldn't be doing what we are dealing with and trying to deal with in this bill. [1535] Clearly, at the end of the day, incarceration is part of the arsenal that we have as a society to deal with young people who are not able to respond to more positive stimuli. Again I note that the member for Chilliwack-Kent argued that incarceration can indeed be a powerful stimulus to turn people around. If we have to incarcerate people, I think this bill adopts and encourages a humanitarian approach.

It talks about reintegration into the broader society as an objective, and I think those provisions in this bill and the focus on things other than incarceration are impor- tant. But as I've said, at the end of the day, bringing a more strict regime of penalty into provincial statute in the case of offences against laws of this province, tres- passing on school grounds for the purposes of sexual exploitation or gang activity…. I personally wish we didn't have to talk about those kinds of things, but it's clear we do.

I think it's clear that the public of British Columbia, after the debate that took place around the federal Young Offenders Act…. Clearly, people are expecting us to respond in a stricter way. I believe that this bill, Bill 63, the new Youth Justice Act, will be a significant contributor to our desire, our promise to promote and protect public safety in this province. Again, for the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant to make some of the accusations and to trivial- ize this issue, as she did earlier today, is astounding. This should be a non-partisan issue. This is about the safety of our communities.

Frankly, whichever political stripe you come from should not lead us into the kind of accusations and trivialization we saw today. This bill will assist us in our objective of providing safer communities. The Solicitor General has had a very active year in terms of integration of police forces, of introduction of new technology, of encouraging po- lice across this province to work closer together. Cer- tainly, where we stand in Victoria and Esquimalt there has been some visible evidence of that approach to safer communities.

This bill provides one that is per- haps not quite so obvious but that I think is equally important. If we can deal with the issue of youth crime today and if we can deal with it with some success with using new methods of assisting young people as well as of more serious incarceration for serious crimes, then I think we are serving our next generation well.

7682 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 We will get crime rates down, we'll continue that downward slide, and that's what we're after. To create a stand-alone comprehensive piece of legislation, which this bill does, written with youth specifically as its subject, I think will also provide some greater clarity both in law and in clarity of purpose. The purpose here is to assist young people who are having trouble with the law, and if they are still having trouble with the law, then they are going to pay a price and a stiffer price than they have done up until now. The message is clear.

The federal legislation moves us in the same direction with respect to federal statutes. We're following suit in British Columbia, and I'm pleased about that. In conclusion, the striking of a balance in a piece of legislation — in an issue as complex as this, with all the sociological, psychological, economic, family, commu- nity issues that it evokes and questions — is always very difficult.

I think this bill finds that balance between serious consequences for people who do not apparently share the values that most of us — the majority of our society, fortunately — share and acknowledging that there are other initiatives and methodologies that need to be utilized with young people and also to reinforce the message, which again is intuitive, that young peo- ple are treated differently and sentencing is different than it is for adults. [1540] I believe that once again we are talking about a piece of legislation that assists us in fulfilling one of our new-era promises.

A new-era promise talked about safer streets, safer schools and safer communities. In all of those areas, this bill addresses that promise, and I'm confident we'll end up with some improvements that make that promise not just a promise but actual fact. R. Nijjar: It's my pleasure to stand up and speak to this bill brought in by the Solicitor General. I, too, have a frog in my throat, but I wanted very much to be here today, and I rested up so I could have this opportunity to speak.

Much of what the Solicitor General has been doing for the past two and a half years, I believe, is real com- monsense Solicitor General work — commonsense work when it comes to bringing in PRIME-BC, the co- ordinated policing computer systems, and the gradu- ated licence system. Our Solicitor General, I'm thank- f u l , i s a c o m m o n s e n s e t y p e o f g u y . W h e n y o u m e e t w i t h h i m o n e o n o n e i n r e g a r d t o p a r t i c u l a r i s s u e s i n y o u r c o m m u n i t y o r a c r o s s B .

C . , w h e n h e s p e a k s i n caucus or here in the Legislature, at least we know that what he says is resonating with the people of British Columbia. The people of British Columbia are not looking for the most complicated things in the world. They know what they want. We have youth that to whatever ex- tent — maybe more or maybe less than in the past, regardless of where the number is going — are speed- ing. We have youth that are involved in gang activity. We have youth that are recruiting on school grounds. It is our obligation to deal with those issues.

The people of British Columbia are not going around saying across this province: "Oh no. What we want to see are fewer sentences." The only thing we want to see is that you go up to that child and say: "Son, daughter, why are you doing this, and how can w e h e l p ? " N o w , o f c o u r s e , a s a d u l t s w e a r e g o i n g t o look beyond what is just in front of us and look behind and see what the issues are in children's lives and how we can help.

This piece of legislation is not doing away with the other, more modern ways of dealing with crime and hav- ing professionals assist youth and families, working with the Ministry of Children and Family Development, the Ministry of Human Resources, the Ministry of Health, etc. This is an added and commonsense component. To argue that a more severe sentence in no way plays a role in the pocket of issues that legislation has to deal with is ridiculous.

I'm not a lawyer — I don't need to be; I have enough colleagues that are lawyers — but I can tell you that one of the purposes of our law system is to protect society by apprehending and incar- cerating criminals once they're found to be criminals and convicted. Another is to reflect the values of soci- ety. The laws we have should reflect the values of the society. Thirdly, the law should be to the extent and of the type that the society feels are its own values at that time. Of course laws are changing as our society changes, but they have to reflect what the people are saying.

Justice is fluid in that sense. [1545] Regardless of whether you're speaking to the mem- ber for Vancouver-Kingsway, who represents eastside Vancouver, or the members from Victoria or down- town Vancouver or anywhere from the heartlands of British Columbia…. You speak to citizens right across, young and old. You speak to other teenagers. You speak to youth in colleges. You speak to parents; you speak to seniors. There is a resonating comment across British Columbia. The comments are that the sentences, or the sentences that are given at least, are not reflect- i n g t h e v a l u e s o f s o c i e t y .

S o w h i l e w e w a n t t o w o r k with the professionals across this country and across this province to ensure that we give all the assistance we can so those youth can be healthy citizens and con- tribute to our society, we also have to send a message to other youth. That is a reality. You can be as bleeding-hearted as you want about it.

You can be as modern as you think you may be, but one of the realities you are never go- ing to get away from, as educated as you might think or the members in the opposition might think they are on this issue, is that a part of the responsibility of legis- lation and of the judicial system is to reflect the values and send a message as part of being a deterrent. The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant spoke in the House, and I'm reading from Hansard here. She made a lot of comments that I circled, which I want to read, that did not make complete sense. However, here's one.

"That's what the government has in mind, but the question is: in the real world, is this how it works? Do youth about to commit a crime ask them-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7683 selves: 'Wait, I wonder if this is one of the six areas of the provincial jurisdiction that the Solicitor General said in the newspaper that he was going to come down on with a hammer. Gee, maybe I should rethink this.'" What is the member saying — t h a t w e s h o u l d n ' t have legislation, that we shouldn't have criminal legis- lation, even for adults? Is she going to argue that if an adult is about to commit a violent offence, that adult doesn't say: "Oh my god, I think I might be caught or I might end up in jail, so I'm not going to do this"?

The notion is ridiculous. Of course no one individual, at every moment in time, is asking themselves: what is the law of the land? But overall, a culture develops where the law of the land is at least generally known throughout society, as we right now have a general knowledge of the laws of the land. I was born and raised on the east side of Vancou- ver. I went to high school there. I went to college there. I know many of the young people that we speak about as youth here. I know youth who were involved in the car racing that led to so many deaths.

I know some of the drivers that drove other people to their death. I knew some of the drivers and passengers that were killed themselves. I know of, directly and indirectly, at least 12 people murdered in gang killings. I grew up with that — s o m e o f t he m s h o t u p i n c l u b s . I we nt t o school with them. T he y g o t o hi g h s c ho o l s . T he y re c ru i t . T hat i s p a rt of the process. They know — they're sophisticated enough to figure out — which young girl is new to Vancouver, coming from some small town or from a reserve or from Alberta.

They know who's vulnerable, and they have a very sophisticated scheme of slowly integrating that person into prostitution — first inte- grating them into drugs, making them think that they're actually making money by sending their own people in to pay for the services, buying them things. Really, it's just a business investment, because that's what they are in their view. I've known these people. Some are still out there. [1550] I'll tell you, one of the common themes when you talk to these people, what they say…. It's nothing new for me. It's not like I'm the only one who hears this.

One of them is: "Hey, there's a lot of money to be made, and if we get caught, what is the big deal? There really isn't that much of a punishment." I heard two young men speaking, one 18 and one 19. I used to take the bus up there — the No. 3, which runs right through Hastings, the downtown east side — when I used to go to Simon Fraser University. You get to know people on the bus, of course, and I often u s e d t o s t o p a t t h e d o w n t o w n e a s t s i d e a n d g o f o r a beer there, for two reasons.

First, it's cheaper, and sec- ond, it's probably the only time in my life I'd get to learn that culture. It was a great social experience, and I learned a lot. I actually became friends with young women who were prostitutes, men who were drug dealers and bartenders who knew the whole culture. I used to sit there and talk to them. I fit right in, in the sense that I'm just a regular guy from the east side of Vancouver. It really was no big deal. These two guys were talking.

One of them had just come out of youth detention, and he said to the other one: "If that's what so-and-so did, why don't you just kill him?" The other one said: "You know, I don't want to go through that." The guy says: "Give me a break. What's the big deal? Look, you're still 17." I think he was 17 at the time, or something like that. "You kill the guy; you get caught. What's the big deal? You spend — what? — 16 months, a year and a half in juvie. So what's the big deal?" And the guy said: "Yeah, you're right." Then they talked about whatever they were going to go talk about.

The point is that there is a culture out there with a mentality that it's no big deal. There are guys that go to university and go to college, and you'd think they're well-behaved young men. In most respects they are. When it comes to driving 140 or 150 kilometres an hour on a Friday or Saturday night, the reason why they do it…. I know. I've spoken with them; I've talked with them; I know who they are. They live in my commu- nity. They're friends of my friends or friends of my cousins or whatever it may be.

One mentality is, of course: "I'm not going to go flying off the road or kill anybody, because I know how to drive." The other is: "If I get caught, what's the big deal? What am I going to get — a fine of $175? So what?" Most of these men are dealing drugs, so they can pay the $175 just like that. We have a lot harder time paying it than they do. In my area of Vancouver-Kingsway, east-side Van- couver, right across New West, Burnaby, Victoria — you name it — you look…. Marijuana grow operations are rampant, epidemic across this province.

I've been working very hard with the Solicitor General to create deterrents against those who are growing in other peo- ple's homes. When these marijuana grow operators get caught…. I'll remind you that you can make about a million dollars profit out of one home. A crop takes three months, so you get four rounds of crops. Each crop gets you about $250,000 worth. When you ship the mari- juana to the States for coke, coke comes back up here and gets sold in the downtown east side and everywhere else. That's about how much they're making.

So when they're caught by the police — and this is in no way the fault of the police; their hands are tied on these things — what ends up happening…. There are a lot of issues involved in why and how, but the end result is that they basically spend no time in jail, are very unlikely to spend time in jail, and they get a few dollars' worth of fine — $1,500 — or they get their equipment taken away. How much does that cost? A few thousand dollars to replace. Maybe they get a $5,000 fine.

Even if they weren't doing a full crop in the house — suppose they're making $500,000 in the year — if they get a $1,500 or $5,000 fine, that to them is the cost of doing business. [1555] When we have sentences that to the criminals is a cost of doing business, then yes, I agree with some of the members in the opposition. Yes, we have to do things to create a different situation in society so these things don't happen, but we also have to create a deter-

7684 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2003 rent. We also have to do what the Solicitor General is working on doing, which is having proceeds-of-crime legislation. Proceeds-of-crime legislation is long over- due. When people are committing a crime for the sole purpose of making money, then we should hit them where it hurts the most, which is in their wallets. They really don't care about the other things. Our judicial system is so backed up, and it is so costly to try to put these people through the court systems and so hard to prove the case, that often we don't bother doing it.

And quite frankly, we don't need to. Hit them where it counts. Hit them at the dollars. Take those dollars and put them back into society. It's society that deserves it, because it's society that was violated in the first place by these growers. Yet again, even with these people the attitude is: "Hey, it's really no big deal if I get caught. I'll go to jail for 12 hours, and I'll go in front of the judge and pay my $1,500, and so forth." It's like having traffic fine violations — right now $175 is the average — and re- ducing them to $5 and saying $5 should be enough for a deterrent. I mean, that's ridiculous.

I'm sure even the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant knows it. That's why, as I read through her comments in Hansard…. Her comments are nothing more than paraphrasing what other leaders of associa- tions or other members of different groups have said, who have not read the legislation but have made gen- eral comments around incarceration and programs for juveniles. In my riding of Vancouver-Kingsway, yes, there are youth that go into the schools and try to get other youth involved in prostitution and drugs.

The member for Vancouver-Hastings knows, I'm sure the member for Vancouver-Burrard knows and the police know that there are young girls going to high school who, in the evening, are prostitutes. They sometimes get to school at 9 o'clock when school starts, and sometimes they don't because they're tired and they slept in. They do end up coming to school, but they work as prosti- tutes. That is a sad, sad situation. That is not something we can go around blaming levels of government or former governments for. That's a societal issue. That's what we've come to as a country.

When there are so- called pimps out there who feel there is absolutely no deterrent for them to go into those schools and do these things, then a part of our responsibility is to send a message that it is not tolerable. O n e o f o u r j o b s a s l e g i s l a t o r s i s t o r e f l e c t , i n t h e legislation we develop, the values of our constituents.

The reason why the member for Vancouver-Hastings and the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant really, in the end, had so little to say on this issue was because they know, we know and everybody listening knows that this is really a commonsense piece of legislation. Those that are joyriding and driving 150 kilometres an hour down the streets of Victoria and Vancouver and the lower mainland need to have sentences that are slightly more severe than they've had before, because they weren't severe at all. Even now these are nowhere close to being severe. From 30 days to 90 days — is

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1030pm 14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1030pm 14
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	79193ee511423533ab3b6cda09bcf57b2ac5abe2

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).