Manitoba Hansard — 4 June 1996 (Sitting 45, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-45

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 45- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 4, 1996 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Aff'IIiation Name Constituency Part)' ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Anhur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Alben, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. - FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norben P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon.

Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, Mary Ann St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. - NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Ponage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupensland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C.

STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Tunle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fon Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

3167 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 4,1996 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Home Care Services Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Violet Brooks, B. Flye and Janette Chapman requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Bob Wall, Jane Morrison, M.

Bondener and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Trudy Gonia, Ed Lewicky, Arthur Doering and others requesting that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) consider reversing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Teachers-Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review Mr.

Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Tim Haverhick, Christine Bravar, Joan Peters and others urging the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) to recognize the true value of teachers and reject the recommendations made in the May 1996 paper entitled a report of the Teacher Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review Committee. Home Care Services Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I beg to present the petition of Boris Romanow, Charles Kileny, J. Lethbridge and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Teachers-Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review Mada m Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the May 1996 report of the Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review Committee is a direct attack on the collective rights of all teachers and consequently will negatively affect the quality of education in Manitoba; and THAT by pursuing the direction and recommendations suggested by this report teachers will be stripped of any powers they have with regard to collective bargaining; and THAT teachers by educating our youth to compete suc cessfully in the knowledge based economy of the 1990s are generators of wealth; and THAT any changes to the teachers' compensation process only be undertaken with the idea of improving the present system and not by attacking teachers' ability to bargain.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) to recognize the true value of teachers and reject the recommendations made in the May 1996 paper entitled Report of the Teacher Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review Committee.

3168 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 Home Care Services Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 199 5, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will Jose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Fi/mon) and the Mmister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their pian to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition for the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all serv ice delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as wei/ as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Fi/mon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their pian to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this pian calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and - -

June 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3169 THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services.

Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services *

(1335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have this afternoon thirty-two Grade 8 students from Red Lake Madsen Public School under the direction of Liz Sidor. This school is located in northwestern Ontario. And, we have twenty-five Grades 5 and 6 students from Mafeking Elementary School under the direction of Gladice Wyatt. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Faneuil Corporation Public Subsidy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Acting Premier. In August of 1994, the government signed an agreement with Fanueil which had no mention of the

3170 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 arrangements between the government of Manitoba, the Manitoba Trading Corporation and the Fanueil corporation of a $3-million subsidy. We asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in December of 1995 about the subsidy and he rejected that a subsidy had been made. Subsequent to that, the Auditor has confirmed in Hansard that a $3-million subsidy was made to the Fanueil corporation through the Manitoba Trading Corporation. I would like to ask the Acting Premier: Who has been telling us the truth, the Provincial Auditor or the govern ment of the day? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Madam Speaker, we do not see where there is a $3- million subsidy in the offer that brought Fanueil here. The Manitoba Trading Corporation acts as a go-between between MTS and Faneuil, and MTS pays to Faneuil over the course of five years some $16 million. At the same time, $16 million worth of debt is written down on MTS's books with the government of Manitoba and $19 million is then paid by Faneuil back to the government.

So that is a gain of $3 million, not a subsidy of $3 million, and it represents the interest on the money over the course of time. So it is a basic wash. It is a zero balance process; $16 million flows, $19 comes back That is plus $3 million, not minus $3 million. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Acting Premier how on May 10, 1996, the Auditor can say that there is a $3-million subsidy which has been reflected in the '94-95 Public Accounts through a prov ision against that account-it went through the Department oflndustry, Trade and Tourism.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier, how can the Auditor say that there is a $3-million public subsidy and the government claim that they are making a $3-million profit? Whom should the public believe, the Provincial Auditor or the Conservatives who have withheld information time and time again about deals they have made with private corporations? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, the facts are as have been stated by the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System.

What I have a little bit of trouble with is the opposition being so opposed to a company coming to this province who will be paying off major debt on behalf of the people of Manitoba through the Manitoba Telephone System, with the projection of some, the creation of some 1, 000 jobs over a period of time in this province. I continue to have a hard time understanding the opposition. The people of Manitoba last April spoke as it relates to the opposition members and where they should be, and I think that will hold for a long time. *

(1340) Manitoba Telephone System Customer Database-Legal Opinion Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, if all we are asking the government for is honesty and integrity in the discrepancy between the government's word and Auditor's word, I would think it would cause an Acting Premier and a minister responsible for the Trading Corpomtion some discomfort.

The Auditor went further to say, Madam Speaker, that the Trading Corporation purchased the database, which was transferred to it for some $10, and that was sublicensed over to Faneuil from the Trading Corporation from the Manitoba Telephone System. I would like to ask the Acting Premier, could he table today any legal opinion he has on the transfer and utilization of the database from the telephone company through the Trading Corporation to Faneuil, a private corporation? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): The database that is leased from Manitoba Telephone System to Faneuil is for use by Faneui1 only in MTS programs or MTS campaigns. Those campaigns have been exceptionally successful in winning back customers who have left MTS, but that database is leased and only for use in MTS programs. Manitoba Telephone System Customer Database-Legal Opinion Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the Minister responsible for MTS may wish to correct his - -

June4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3171 numbers. He has them exactly backwards. It was $19 million worth of debt assumed and $16 million worth of preferred shares received. The Auditor is right; the minister is wrong. MTS's customer database contains highly confidential personal and corporate information. Technically, the abil ity is there now for every call, whether long distance or local, that has been made to be recorded and extracted from that database for whatever purposes.

Prior to entering into a contract such as the deal with Faneuil, is the minister saying that there was no legal opinion as to the use of MTS's data for Faneuil's so-called precision marketing or targeted marketing purposes? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): MTS signed a contract with Faneuil, an initial contract and then a bigger contract, totalling some $4 7 million to retain revenue expected to be in excess of $200 million in this competitive environment we are in. It has had exceptional success in winning back customers.

Faneuil has the highest success rate of winning back customers of any phone company right across Canada-highly, highly successful-with the leased database that is used by Faneuil from MTS to do that. If I remember rightly, the industry average for winning back customers is about 75 percent and Faneuil, on behalf of MTS, is in excess of 85 percent customer win back That is very successful, supplying an existing 320 jobs in the province and moving over the seven years up to 1,000 jobs, so it is a win-win all the way around, particularly for MTS in terms of winning customers.

MTS's business right now with Faneuil is about 30 percent of the total contracts they have. Some of those contracts come from outside of the country, bringing jobs to Manitoba, bringing revenue flow on the MTS system to Manitoba. Mr.

Sale: I want to table advice received from the legal and regulatory affairs department, signed by the senior associate counsel ofMTS which states: The provision of the type of customer information identified in Faneuil's proposal raises serious and, in our opm10n, insurm ountable issues relating to the confidentiality of customer information, subscriber privacy and service listing requirements as established by the CRTC.

Madam Speaker, will the m1mster explain to Manitobans why his government never even bothered to get a legal opinion on a deal that can obviously seriously compromise the privacy of every single MTS subscriber in this province? Mr.

Findlay: In the many, many months preceding the signing of this agreement-! believe it was August '94- exceptional due diligence was done by the government, by MTS, by the Manitoba Trading Corporation, to be sure that the agreement signed covered all the aspects that were essential to be covered in the process of signing the agreement for the better economic development of MTS and Manitoba. Mr. Sale: When you hire a painter to paint your house, you do not charge for the key to get in. Why did MTS charge Faneuil $16 million for a database to do MTS's own marketing?

If that is all it is doing with the database, why in the world would they charge them $16 million to get it? It makes no sense. Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, what makes an awful lot of sense for MTS and the province of Manitoba is winning back customers that chose an alternate provider of service, winning them back with the best success record anywhere in Canada. That means that MTS and Faneuil are both very successful in what they do and how they do it, and the jobs created in the province supplies employment for, as I said earlier, 320 people currently and growing.

The proportion of the total Faneuil contract carried out in Manitoba, MTS is only 30 percent of that activity. So there is success all the way around. No matter how that member wants to denigrate things that Manitobans do, they are going to do it in order to be successful despite him. *

(1345) Health Sciences Centre Operating Facilities Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I just returned from a visit to a patient at the operating rooms at the Health Sciences Centre where that patient was forced to remain in the operating room because there was no room in the recovery room because that room was full of extended care patients, and therefore the surgery in

3172 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 the operating room was backed up because the anesthetist and the patient were sitting in the operating room and operating could not be done there-and this after four years of Tory reform. Spare us more reform. My question to the minister is, why can the minister not live up to his election promise to upgrade the unsafe conditions at Health Sciences Centre and still have room for a role and function of our community hospitals in the city of Winnipeg? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the trouble with the approach being used by the honourable member and his Leader is that it betrays a serious rift within the New Democratic Party respecting where they stand on hospitals in the city of Winnipeg. On the one hand, I believe the honourable member for Kildonan when he talks about support for an integrated hospi tal system, but his Leader comes along and torpedoes his whole approach yesterday when he goes on the bandwagon for one particular institution. It is important that honourable members opposite get their act together. Mr.

Chomiak: Can the minister explain to me what staff told me at the Health Sciences Centre when I was there this morning, that in one operating room they have to put buckets around the operating table to catch the water falling from the ceiling and in another room there are fruit flies? There is an infestation of fruit flies in an operating room, a safety hazard as a result of this govern ment's broken promises and constant cutbacks. Mr.

McCrae: It is somewhat hypocritical, I suggest, for the honourable member to speak the way he does, because it is clear that requirements at Health Sciences Centre go back many years, including all of the years of the Doer-Pawley administration. Let us get it in that kind of a context. Now we are contemplating an integrated hospital system in the city ofWinnipeg. As part of that integrated system, there will be capital requirements in some places. If we listen to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer), we would torpedo the Seven Oaks Hospital, and that works at cross-purposes to what the honourabh: member for Kildonan is talking about, although today h�: is trying to sound a little bit like his Leader did yesterday. Capital Projects Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, how can the public have any confidence in this minister's ability to plan an integrated system when four months ago they told the hospitals they would have $10 million in capital to replace equipment? Four months later now they cannot have that capital, maybe they will have it later on.

How many bake sales can these hospitals have to try to replace the deteriorating equipment that this government has failed to replace the past eight years? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): You see, Madam Speaker, it is okay for the honourable member to have the strategy that he has becau::e it has nothing to do with responsible stewardship of the health system in the province of Manitoba. It has to do with targeting a different topic each day as part of your Question Period strategy. I accept that.

That is all right, but the honourable member must keep in mind that we are trying to build a health system for the city of Winnipeg and also for the whole province of Manitoba. By talking about one institution at any given time, we defeat our 0\\n purpose. The honourable member claims to be in support of an integrated and well-run hospital system in the city of Winnipeg and yet his comments betray that because now his Leader has put him in an impossible kind of position.

I feel badly for the honourable member for Kildonan because he has tried, certainly during the Estimates process, to play a meaningful and constructive role, but his Leader is undermining his efforts. Regional Health Boards Appointments Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, \\hen the Minister of Health made his announce ment to move towards regional health boards Manitobans were given the impression that they would have a say in who would represent them, but we have no assurance that that will happen.

Can the minister tell this House where the guarantees are that he will not continue to make appointments and Manitobans will be given a right to vote on the regional - -

June 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3173 health boards? Where are the guarantees and when are we going to have a vote? * (1350 ) Hon. James McC rae (Minister of Health): There has been no final decision about that. The Northern and Rural Health Advisory Council talked about ultimately, at some point in the future, electing these boards and that remains a possibility, but there is no hard and fast policy that is the direction that we are taking.

We look at the experience in other jurisdictions, notably Saskatchewan, and we would like to see their systems develop a little further so we can learn from some of their mistakes before we get too far down the road. At the present time we are using a process of nomination from the public and from interested organizations and making board appointments from that, as well as ministerial and direct board appointments to the boards. Ms. W owchuk: This is absolutely appalling.

Is the minister saying that he is going back on his word and there is no guarantee that rural people are going to have the opportunity to have an election on who will represent them on the board and he is going to continue to make these appointments? Shame on you. That is not what you said you would do. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mada m Speaker: Order, please. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, after such a stinging rebuke, I am left at a loss to know just how I can respond to the honourable member for Swan River. An Honourable Member: Sit down. Mr. McCrae: Did you say, sit down? An Honourable Member: No. Mr.

McCrae: No. I thought I heard someone over An Honourable Member: Obviously, you should have. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, because she is concerned about something going on in Parkland, that area that nominated more people than any other area in the province of Manitoba, because of that, in an area where there are more nominations than anywhere else, the honourable member says there are not enough and so therefore we should extend the time. That is the kind of leadership we get from the honourable members opposite, but the honourable member is more interested in politics than she is in health care.

That is obvious by her question. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, with a fmal supplementary question. Core Services Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I would like to ask the minister if he could guarantee rural Manitobans that there will be core services provided for them in the hospital and that there will be no user fees charged in Manitoba for health services and services delivered under these regional health boards. Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Unlike New Democratic provinces to the west where user fees are a fact of everyday life, we do not operate that way here in the province of Manitoba. We do recognize the principles of the Canada Health Act and we do our best as a government, like other governments across the country, to live up to the principles enunciated by the Canada Health Act. But the honourable member ought not to pretend by her question that the reality of the federal Liberal cutbacks does not exist, because it does.

Madam Speaker, the longer honourable members opposite go around with their blinders on, the more people in Manitoba see them for what they are and that is a bunch of hidebound politicians whose useful life as politicians is past. there at the front bench say, sit down, and I thought the * (135 5) question was a serious one and was really wanting to have an answer which I would like to give. It was the honourable member for Swan River who suggested publicly, put out a press release, that we ought to extend the time for nominations. Health Sciences Centre Capital Funding Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the urban health board came up with recommendations a

3174 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 while back, in January, suggesting that community hospitals and particularly the Seven Oaks and Misericordia would not have any role to play in terms of acute care services. It would appear as if the government is in fact seriously looking at the role, in particular the Seven Oaks Hospital, and it appears again that the public and those individuals that were involved in trying to influence the minister might have had some impact. Madam Speaker, we have always believed that the tertiary hospital, the Health Sciences Centre, is absolutely critical.

It is a world-class health care facility. My question to the minister is, is the Minister of Health prepared to make a commitment that the capital dollars that are necessary in order for the Health Sciences Centre to remain a first-class world teaching hospital will be there in the future? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think the record of the last eight years of administration in this province should be ample demon stration to the honourable member that we are committed to the health of Manitobans.

Whatever structures, bricks and mortar are required to look after the health care needs of Manitobans is something we take as a serious responsibility and will continue to do so. Mr. Lamoureux: Will the minister concur with the Liberal Party when we say that yes, there is a vital role for our community hospitals but also acknowledge that there is the need for strong tertiary hospitals? To that end, again to ask the Minister of Health, is he prepared to make the commitment that the Health Sciences Centre will be receiving capital dollars to improve their infrastructure? Mr.

McCrae: In spite of the fact that the honourable member for Inkster too seems to be changing his tune today, I can give that undertaking, that whatever programs we approve for the future are obviously programs we will have to support, not only with opera ting dollars but with whatever capital dollars are required as well.

However, I should point out that we have made the point that the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation is an important matter deserving of some priority, which I do believe honourable members in this House will agree with, but then they quickly follow up by saying, but everything else has to be a priority one item too. An Honourable Member: No, just your promise. Mr. McCrae: Well, the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) likes to harp away about promises, but he has no responsibility for priorities and his demeanour in this House demonstrates that every single day, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, would the minister acknowledge that the capital equipment freeze that the minister has put on will put severe limitations on emergency equipment that is in fact quite necessary to have, and will the minister agree today that the moment the strategy has been brought to the public's attention, that freeze will be lifted? Mr. McCrae: No, and the capital requirements of the health of Manitobans is something that we will take up on an ongoing basis. Youth Unemployment Rate Increase Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Education's usual answer to questions about declining post-secondary enrollments is that the good news is that all those young people must have found jobs. I want the minister to explain today why this month we have in fact both increases in youth unemployment according to Stats Canada-compared to last year, the unemployment rate for young men has gone from 15 percent to 17.4 percent, considerable increase over a month.

Could she tell us why we have an increase in youth unemployment and at the same time post-secondary education enrollment has continued to decline? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I will take a look at the statistics that are available in my office and get back to the member with a response to her question as soon as I have the figures that she is indicating confirmed. Ms. Friesen: The minister will find them in the Manitoba- Madam Speaker: Order, please. - -

June 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3175 Post-Secondary Education Fee Increase Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Would the minister confirm that her broken promise, her refusal to institute a fee policy for post-secondary education this year has led directly to fee increases of up to 20 percent in Manitoba institutions? Will she confirm that what she is doing is further reducing the opportunities for young Manitobans? Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I believe there were a couple of questions there.

Basically, the member I think has asked me to confirm something and I will not confirm it. I will indicate that I find it ironic that she is even asking a question on this when she absolutely deplored and found absolutely abhorrent the cap on university fees that we imposed for a couple of years, that that was very objectionable to her. I fmd it rather amusing that she would even deign to ask the question, but, then, chutzpa is alive and well in this House.

I would indicate, Madam Speaker, that we have a tuition fee policy study under review, as the member knows, because it was announced quite clearly and quite publicly some time ago. That tuition fee policy will be an overview policy for the entire province. It has students on the committee as well. It has members of the interim transition committee on it as well. It will be reporting to the post-secondary council on education which was announced earlier today. The member was there for that announcement.

I am sure she has already heard this answer, but I appreciate the opportunity to inform the people that that tuition fee policy recommendation will soon be ready for the council. *

(1400) Public Housing Property Sales Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, yesterday I asked the Minister of Housing about the sale of20 units of public housing at 390 Behnke Road in St. Vital. He said that no decision had been made about the sale of those units. I want to ask the minister to explain why 20 families have been ordered to move by September 1, to remove their children from school against their will because there is no other available public housing in St. Vital, if no decision has been made regarding that property. Bon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): What I had indicated to the member was that negotiations are ongoing regarding the proposal that was put forth by Home Depot for the purchase of that property. It was an offer to purchase. There were conditions that were outlined in it. The conditions are still within negotiations and no decision has been made as to whether that property has been sold. Ms. Cerilli: I am going to table a list of the approximate waiting periods for new family applicants for public housing from the Manitoba Housing Authority. In St. Vital, the wait is at least one year.

I want to ask the minister, how can his department even contemplate destroying this public housing, given that there are waiting lists and a shortage for social housing here in Manitoba? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, I should point out to the member for Radisson that overall in Winnipeg the vacancy rate for public housing hovers around 1 0 percent year around. It fluctuates from various portions of the city from time to time but overall there is more housing space available that is underutilized. If there is any type of movement of any individuals, they will be done at the Housing's expenses.

The people will not be incon venienced in any way for any type of moving. Fleet Vehicles Agency Board Membership Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Government Services. Yesterday the minister was about to provide us with a list of the members of the board of the Fleet Vehicles Special Operating Agency. Would the minister provide us with the list and confirm that it includes people from the automotive industry and tell us how many of these board members are from his constituency of Portage la Prairie? Bon.

Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): I appreciate the question from the member, though we were not able to cover this in the short time

3176 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 that was allocated by the New Democratic Party to Government Services Estimates. That being said, the advisory board that advises Fleet Vehicles Agency is one that gives us support and offers us advice on a number of issues, short and long term, assists us with strategic planning initiatives and contributes very significant advice and input to our special operating agency.

Let me say, though, that I think it is important to note that given the term of the New Democratic Party in the 1980s, there was a real reluctance to engage in any kind of creative efforts in the area of business organization to achieve better delivery of government services to client departments. The special operating agencies are doing that to the tune of a reduction of 20 percent in terms of the number of vehicles. Now, in terms of the board memberships specifically- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I rise on, I think this is the third point of order on the same minister. He was asked the same question twice yesterday. In fact, on my second point of order yesterday, you admonished him for not following our rules, Beauchesne Citation 417. Since he is being asked the question again and he is again evading answering it, I would like to ask that you again call him to order and answer the very straightforward question, who is on this body and how many are from his constituency. It does not take much to answer that question. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable minister that he should respond to the question asked and keep his answers as brief as possible. * * * *

(1410) Mr. Maloway: Does the minister not agree that it is a conflict of interest to have car dealers sitting on the board supporting a plan to privatize the fleet which would directly benefit their dealership? Is that not like putting the fox in with the chickens, and will he provide us with a list of the members of the board? Mr. Pallister: I gather the member speaks from personal experience in terms of foxes and chickens. I would agree it would be a conflict, yes, and there are no car dealers on the advisory board, the special operating agency, none at all. Mr.

Maloway: My fmal supplementary to the same minister is this: Can the minister explain why in Hansard, June 7, 1995-that is one year ago-the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mr. Ernst) stated that: "Fleet Vehicles Operating Agency which has people from the automotive industry sitting on that as members of the board providing expertise." Could he explain this conflict, when one year ago the Minister of Consumer Affairs confirmed that these people are on the board? Mr.

Pallister: I recognize the members opposite are futilely trying to attack the credibility of this side of the House with issues such as this today and on other days past. Let me just read for the edification of the members-if they are interested, they would be quiet and listen to the answer-the members of the Fleet Vehicles Agency advisory board, for their interest. The chair is Hugh Eliasson who is the deputy minister of Government Services. The two private sector representatives, I will save for last.

The client representatives: John Hosang is assistant deputy minister of Highways and Trans portation, Kathryn Bernhardt is a staff representative. She is the manager of Materials and Safety at the Fleet Vehicles Agency. Ex-officio members include Gerry Berezuk who is an assistant deputy minister with my department and Dennis Ducharme who is the chief operating officer of the Fleet Vehicles Agency. Now we do have, yes, we have two private sector representatives, much to the disdain of members opposite, it appears.

Norm Fiske, who is a respected member of the accounting community in this province and has been for many years, is a private sector representative, as is Raymond West who is the past president of the A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd. There is your -

June 4, 1996 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3177 board. They need to be encouraged in their efforts, and I do that. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Sheriff's Office Bailiff Duties-Privatization Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. In addition to the Sheriffs Office's function of providing prisoner escort and court security, that office, of course, is also responsible for bailiff functions, for seizing and selling property and evictions, for example.

My question to the minister is, would the minister confirm our understanding that this bailiff function has now been privatized effective April 1? What is driving this privatization, given a departmental report recom mending against this privatization? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, yes, I can confirm that in the city of Winnipeg there has been a privatization of bailiff services and that in the rural area this is still being done by sheriffs. The issues that have been driving this are, No. 1, the time that it takes to deal with this particular service.

There is also an amount of risk and liability required. Some of the storage issues are particularly concerning since the storage required are for items such as cattle or tanks of oil. So there have been a number of issues which were well considered which led to the decision in the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Mackintosh: Would the mmtster then explain the cost impact of her privatization, especially on users like the Maintenance Enforcement Program, which Saskatchewan, for example, concluded would result in higher costs to government and to taxpayers? Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I think a starting point is to say that, first of all, when sheriffs were doing this, there was a loss in revenue to the Province of Manitoba. The loss, I am informed, was for '94-95, approximately $188,180. Therefore, it simply cost us significantly more for sheriffs to do this work, and we were in fact losing money in carrying out this work. That is a significant amount of money, and we believe that there are a number of places across this province where that money is also needed. So that was another reason, the loss of dollars.

It was more expensive in fact to run so that was another reason which drove the changes. Garment Industry Employment Opportunities Ms. Diane McGifford (Osbo rne): About two weeks ago the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gillesharnm er) said that 200 immigrant workers were coming to Manitoba to work in the garment industry but apparently the Nygard International plant at St. Malo, which opened in September '95 and enjoyed funded training from January to March 31, 1996, closed on April 14, 1996, laying off22 trained workers.

I want to ask the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism to tell the House if there really are full-time continuing jobs available in the garment industry and, if so, where are they? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, it is my understanding that there are considerable jobs available in the garment industry. That information has been communicated to us. We have been working on two fronts, one is to identity Canadians who in fact could quality for those jobs and develop training programs with the industry to make sure that they are in fact filled by Canadians.

We are also working with the Canadian Immigration. My colleague the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship has been working with the federal government trying to clear the way to accommodate some people from outside of this country to come and fill the need of an industry that, quite frankly, is doing well but needs the support of a work force to carry out the work that is needed to be done. Nygard International Training Program- Funding Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Can the minister tell this House who paid for the job training at the St.

Malo Nygard plant and if it is true that some of the workers moved to the Steinbach plant and, once again, began funded training?

3178 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): As strange as it may sound to the member opposite, I believe that that training activity was carried out by the owners of the company that had the work being done. Provincial Parks Entrance Fees Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): This winter this government travelled the province attempting to foster support for its provincial parks system plan.

On all of these occas ions the government had ample opportunity to inform Manitobans about this government's intent of not only raising park fees but also placing the onus on visitors to have to go out of their way to buy park entrance passes. This governm ent however, in fear of the negative publicity, failed to inform Manitobans about this change. Can the Minister ofNatural Resources explain why, after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on advertising, he neglected to tell Manitobans about the new permit

schedule and attached fines? Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, Madam Speaker, while I have the opportunity to have the floor, I think we want to compliment the Manitoba Forestry Associationforthe trees that we have here today. I hope everybody will plant those trees and that they will grow. I am a little, I guess, amazed that the member would raise the question from the Fred Cleverley column. I always was a strong supporter of Fred Cleverley over the years. I am reviewing that right now because Fred Cleverley normally is certain of his facts.

In this case, he did not and neither did the member for Dauphin really when he is raising the question here today. I just have to tell him that the consultation that my Parks people have been doing related to the proclamation of The Parks Act is totally unrelated to the issue of the park fees. Incidentally, we did have a press release that went out stating that we were raising the fees. Mr.

Struthers: Can the minister confirm then that in accordance with the new park entrance fee changes that visitors to Manitoba's provincial parks will no longer be able to purchase daily passes but instead will be forced to either buy yearly or thre ;::-day passes? Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, anybody who enters our parks will have to buy a three-day pass. In the case of some of our parks where we have always made a provision if people wanted to go and had business to do with the commercial establishments, they had a two-hour time limit that is still in effect and would still remain in effect.

Mathias Colomb First Nation Health Concerns Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Yesterday several of my colleagues and I were privileged to discuss various issues ·with the chief and council of the Mathias Colomb First Nation at Pukatawagan. One major health issue raised by the chief and council was hydrocarbon contamination of the soil. According to Chief Caribou, the old Hydro site at Pukatawagan has contaminated approximately one-third of the to'\\n and that involves 60 houses, a nursing station. the band office and formerly the site of the school.

My question to the Minister of Health is. could the minister update the House as to what degree his depart ment is imolved with the federal government in dealing with this health hazard'J Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I will report back to the honourable member, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Independent Schools Mr. DaYid Nel\man (Riel): I wish to inform the House of three events I had the opportunity of attending this past weekend. On May 3 0, I attended what was intended to be an education forum organized by the River East Teachers Association.

I was struck by the negative emotion of the audience, encouraged by the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) and the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski). It is apparent to me that - -

June 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3179 effective dialogue about change in the education system depends primarily on small-group discussion on sub stantive matters where individual feelings can be expressed without grandstanding, intimidation and political positioning. Effective two-way communication like this will take time, but it is well worth it for the sake of students, parents and taxpayers. On Saturday, I had the pleasure of attending the Catholic Women's League Eucharistic Celebration and Banquet at St. Gerard Church.

I came to appreciate more than ever before the importance of independent schools and of nongovernm ental organizations founded on strong value systems. The numerous independ.ent schools surrounding St. Gerard Parish, funded in part by this government, allow non-Catholics not only to become students but also to serve as trustees. Full advantage is taken of this opportunity. Independent schools are certainly not exclusive schools for the privileged and well-to-do as is repeatedly suggested by the honourable member for Wolseley.

Our diverse Manitoba society benefits greatly from the support of religious organizations and individuals who support independent schools. Finally, I had the pleasure of participating in the Save Our Seine tree-planting initiative near Provencher along the Seine River. I worked side by side with a group of volunteers from the Church of Latter-Day Saints from Cha rleswood, consisting of teenagers and adults.

All joyfully participated in the fellowship enhancement of the Seine River environment and shared the sense of personal achievement which is always associated with working together and achieving positive results. I am reinforced in my view that our initiatives as a government, supporting personal initiative, personal responsibility and community-based initiatives, are well founded and working. Philippine Heritage Week Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, the Philippine Heritage Week's

schedule of events is starting with the motorcade from the Philippine Centre at 88 Juno to the City of Winnipeg quadrangle at 510 Main Street for an opening flag-raising ceremony, with many organizations and groups displaying their respective banners and participating in cultural variety shows.

The 1996 Heritage Week is being co-ordinated by three sponsoring organizations: the Knights and Ladies of Rizal, the United Filipino-Canadian Seniors and the Philippine Association of Manitoba, and many other groups, such as the original Filipino seniors, Timpuyog Ti Ilocano Ditoy Manitoba, Filipino seniors groups of Euclid Street, Filipino Veterans Association and so on.

Around 5 p.m., Sunday, the 9th of June, 1996, at Rainbow Stage at Kildonan Park on Main Street north will be a celebration of our fuith, which is a concert of the various churches led by the Winnipeg Filipino Alliance Church to offer prayers to God for three levels of Canadian government as well as to the country of origin, the Philippines. *

(1420) On Tuesday, June 10, at 6 p.m., are the cultural aware ness workshops on the Philippines, its country and its people. The highlight of the week-long series of events is the Philippine Independence Commemoration Ball scheduled for Friday, June 14, at 375 York Avenue, Winnipeg Convention Centre, to start about 6 p.m. On Saturday, June 15, at 10 a.m., at Main Street, Glen Eden Memorial Garden will be the celebration of the lOOth anniversary of the martyrdom of our national hero.

The Filipino-Canadians will be joined by many other Canadians represented by all political parties, for this group is truly becoming an integral part of our total Manitoba cultural heritage. Pembina Valley Water Co-op Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, I have the same concern that you do; I found it very difficult to hear the honourable member when he made his member's statement. I thought that this part of the afternoon was designated to those private members so they could bring an issue before this Assembly. I would ask that courtesy be extended to those people who do this.

I want to stand today to congratulate 16 municipalities and communities in the Red River Valley west of the Red River and some of them east of the Red River for jointly

3180 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 initiating a proces s called the Pembina Valley Water Co op. These communities joined forces a number of years ago, eight years ago, and jointly put together a proposal that would bring a good potable water supply in the most efficient manner to all the communities in the Red River Valley. That process has led to an environmental assess ment and approval of an environmental licence to extend water to all the communities including Carman, Morden, Winkler, Altona, Morris, St. Jean and Emerson and all the other communities that are within the Red River Valley.

I would suggest that the province has recognized that effort, and the Province of Manitoba has indicated its willingness to support a new project of pipelines and water treatment plants to ensure water to those communities up to the extent of $6.7 million. The municipalities have also put that amount of money on the table.

It is imperative that the federal government also meet its commitment, and that we ask this House to support the federal government and lobby the federal government-all of the House to lobby the federal government-that they also put $6.7 million on the table that would allow good potable water to be brought to all the citizens of the Red River and the Pembina Valley. National Transportation Week Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, June 2 to June 8 is designated country-wide as National Transportation Week.

The Minister of Transport and honorary chairman for National Transportation Week 1996, David Anderson, signed the proclamation whose theme this year is The Urban Connection. I notice that in the proclamation the minister talks about updating Canada's transport policies, and he talks glowingly about competitive, people-friendly, commercialized affordable transportation systems. Nowhere does the minister mention the historical context wherein Canadians built transportation systems that were accessible to the vast majority of Canadians and accessible even to the rural, remote and northern areas.

These systems were part of a vision of uniting Canada, of removing regional disparities, of nation building. Now our ports, our airports, our railroads are increasingly at the mercy of the highest bidder, and now we have a user- pay philosophy, and Canadians and Manitobans, specifically, are expected to accept this as inevitable. The same Liberal government that talks about people friendly transportation systems is the one which eliminated the Crow rate. That is certainly not being farmer-friendly in the West, and there was nothing people-friendly about laying off thousands of CN workers.

In fact, both the government in Ottawa and the government in Winnipeg failed to admit that there is a dark side to deregulation and privatization. Several of the large truc king firms that were headquartered in Winnipeg are no longer here. Federal ofiloading and specifically the loss of the Crow will cost millions for upgrading rural roads . That, combined with decreased funding for road maintenance, can only lead to poorer quality roads. That type of ofiloading has placed the furure of the bayline and the Port of Churchill in temporary limbo.

Yes, we want to be positive about National Trans port ation Week but we also want to be realistic. Manitoba is strategically located in North America. That has been the case historically as we move from canoe, York boat and Red River cart to trains, cars, trucks and airpla nes. Geographically, we are poised strategically and we can do well. Trans portation is the lifeblood of our economic devel opment, but we should not be blinded by the ideology that this gro\\th can only take place if we use the user-pay competitive model.

That goes against the Canadian tradition and history, and that increases regional disparity and further jeopardizes- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired. Does the honourable member for Flin Flon have leave to continue his comments? Some Honourable Members: No. Madam Speaker: No? Leave has been denied. Philippine Heritage Week Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wanted to just pick up on a point that the member for Broadway (Mr. - -

June 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 81 Santos) brought up and that, of course, being the Phili ppine Heritage Week which is very quickly approaching, Madam Speaker. It is starting, as pointed out, on June 9, and I know I along with other members of the Liberal caucus will no doubt be participating in many of the ongoing events. In the letter that was provided to me, it is quite impressive in terms of the different organiza tions that are getting involved in this year's activities.

One of the things that the Filipino community does have is a number of organizations that participate, that not only are on the steering committee or the organizing committee, but organize all of the events throughout the week. Those who are on the organizing committee, or at least in part, range in terms of age groups to different types of associations, andjust to list off a few of them.

You have the United Filipino-Canadian Seniors of Manitoba, the Philippine Association of Winnipeg, Inc., Quezon Province Association of Manitoba, Radio 27 , the Filcasa, Philippine Veterans Winnipeg Chapter, the Order of Knights of Rizal, the Philippine Association of Manitoba, Timpuyog Ti Ilocano, the Pangasinan group of Manitoba-the honorary consul general is participating, always does in virtually every event that I attend-the Filipino seniors group of Winnipeg. This is just to name a few of the different groups that are out there that participate in making this week very successful.

On that note, I would appeal to all members of the Chamber, if they can make the time, to participate in one of these events. You will find, as I have found in the past, that it is time very well spent. You get a better appreciation of a wonderful culture and heritage and I would make that strong recommendation to all members. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1430) ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, inadvertently during the first reading process on three separate bills, the message from the Lieutenant Governor was not provided. With respect to Bill 39, The Pari-Mutuel Levy and Consequential Amendments Act, the Lieutenant Governor recommends the bill. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable government House leader have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr.

Ernst: Madam Speaker, continuing then, Bill 49, The Regional Health Authorities and Consequential Amendments Act is also recommended by the Lieutenant Governor, and Bill 55, The Financial Administration and Consequential Amendments Act is also recommended by the Lieutenant Governor. I would like to table the three messages respecting those bills. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader have leave to table the three messages by the Lieutenant Governor? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Madam Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr.

Ernst: Madam Speaker, would you please call the bills in the following order for second reading: Bills 36, 50, 51 , 30, 31 , 68, 70, 62, 37, 38, 39, 41 , 42, 43, 47, 71 , 67, 58 , 59, 60, 61 , 74, 28 , 29 , 46, 55, 63, 66 and 69. I have provided a copy of that list to the Clerk in case you missed any of the numbers. SECOND READINGS Bill 36-- The Social Allowances Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Driedger), that Bill 36, The Social Allowances Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'aide sociale et apportant des modifications correlatives), be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mitchelson: Our government has announced and is developing a business case for a one-tier welfare

318 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 19 96 system in Winnipeg. We had two goals in making this decision, to improve services to clients and to reduce administrative duplication. Now we are amending The Social Allowances Act in three ways, first, to provide for the one-tier system in the city of Winnipeg, second, to provide more clearly for the new direction we introduced in our welfare reform, third, to update the act in housekeeping matters such as the elimination of the Canada Assistance Plan. In introducing Bill 36, I will outline the changes in the order I have just given.

We are expecting significant benefits both to clients and in cost-savings from a one tier welfare system in Winnipeg which has about 90 percent of Manitoba's municipal assist ance clients. We expect to reduce costs through elimination of duplicate administration in the system. We will improve efficiency by introducing an integrated one-stop service to assist clients. In addition, with a one-tier system it will be easier to avoid situations of fraud and abuse.

As part of the change to the one-tier system, Madam Speaker, we have included provisions in this bill for the changes to be on a relatively cost-neutral basis for both levels of government, plus a number of transitional provisions concerning administrative and legal matters. In our eight years in office, we have developed a new approach to government programs . A prime example is our welfare reform. Here we have changed Manitoba's social assi stance to emphasize employment. In other words, jobs will be the No.

I priority for welfare clients who are able to work and my staff will actively help and encourage clients to create and execute job search plans. With this change of emphasis, we are tackling the problems of the former system. That system fostered dependence and reliance on government. With the very best of intentions of helping the most needy, we were encouraging a cycle that created generation after generation of families on welfare. We are also changing the name of the act to reflect the new emphasis.

It will now be called The Employment and Income Assistance Act and will no longer use the words "social allowances." Madam Speaker, we know Manitobans want to work . We also know that both citizens and businesses want an environment that encourages work and enterp rise. So we have been working to build an environment that will help people become independent. We want to invest in people's futures and make it possible for Manitobans to do the same for themselves. We are building a future that will break the cycle of welfare dependency and allow Manitobans to reach their full potential.

Madam Speaker, in the course of reaching our target s, we have also changed the way the world looks at the Manitoba economy. Our efforts to improve the economic climate of Manitoba are paying off We believe doors are open to new opportu nities for people on assi stance and our welfare programs are geared to helping people on assistance take advantage of these opportu nities. The Conference Board of Canada, the Royal Bank of Canada and the Bank of Montreal are forecasting real growth in our province. That growth means more jobs for Manitobans. As my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) promised in his budget speech, the government will continue to work with Manitobans to develop the maximum potential of our economy so that more young Manitobans can pursue their careers right here at home. We have done this with our welfare clients. In recent years, we have helped people find work through programs like the Rural Jobs Pro ject, Taking Charge ! and the City of Winnipeg's Community Services program . We are strengthening our efforts through two new pilot partnership progra ms.

Opportunities Manitoba, designed to move people into permanent jobs, is a partnership with the Mennonite Central Committee and associated agencies. The Manitoba Conservation Corps will employ about a hundred people through Manitoba Natural Resources in environmental improve ment pro jects and conservation. We have also developed partnerships with industry for people to gain jobs in areas such as the apparel industry, call centres and trans porta tion. We are confident that this pattern will be str engthened as our welfare reform settles firmly into place.

Besides the changes I have just discussed, we are proposing housekeeping amendments concerning cost shar ing. As members ofthis House know, since April I, the Canada Assistance Plan is no longer in place. This means references in the act to cost-sharing with Canada have to be updated. Finally, this bill repeals sections of The Municipal Act that refer to Winnipeg providing assistance. - -

June 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 318 3 Madam Speaker, I am confident that all these changes will produce an improved, more efficient assistance program for Manitobans in need, and I recommend this bill to the House for unanimous support. Thank you. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindal e), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. * (1 440) Bill 50- The Remembrance Day Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 50, The Remembrance Day Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le jour du souvenir), be now read a second time and referred to a committee ofthis House. Motion presented. Mr. Toews: As Minister of Labour, I am pleased today to introduce Bill 50,

an act to amend The Remembrance Day Act. The reason for the amendment stems from the fact that the current Remembrance Day Act was established in 195 1 and consequently has become somewhat outdated over time. Consumers, employees and business owners have been expressing their dissatisfaction with the lack of precise guidelines on how and why the act affects the public and the operation of certain businesses and services. The changing nature of work and working families has created more public demand for various services on Remem brance Day.

We must also consider that in answer to the needs of the public, there now exist retail businesses and services that were not even thought of 45 years ago. Efforts to apply the act to these companies have created several operational and administrative problems. Some that should stay open must close, while others that should close have the ability to operate on Remembrance Day. It is no surprise that these inconsistencies have resulted in criticism of the act by the general public.

There has also been a great deal of confusion between the restrictions imposed on retail activities by The Remembrance Day Act and those under The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Act. To address these concerns and criticisms, a review com mittee composed of various stakeholders was established. The committee was chaired by His Honour Provincial Court Judge John Enns and included representatives of various veterans' organizations, the Manitoba Federation of Labour and both the Winnipeg and Manitoba Chamber of Commerce.

Through the efforts of the Judge Enns committee, the final report is unanimous and his recommendations respecting changes to the act. I am pleased to state that the proposed amendments con stitute all of the recommendations of Judge Enns' review committee. The proposed amendments to the act re-emphasize that Remembrance Day is not a holiday. It is day of commemoration to honour, observe and reflect on the contribution made by Manitobans, Canadians and others who sacrificed health, limb and life through war and international conflict.

It is for this reason that The Remembrance Day Act remains separate from all other holiday closings. The amendment updates the wording of the

preamble to The Remembrance Day Act to include the Korean War, the Gulf War and international peacekeeping activities. By doing so Manitoba will be the first jurisdiction in North America to honour the contributions of those who offer their services for peacekeeping duties.

In essence, the amendments provide for retaining the status quo for nonretail operations, easing considerably the closure requirements applicable to retail operations by establishing closure from 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. to encourage more focused attention on commemorative services and allowing performances such as games, sports, movies and exhibitions, except between 9 a.m. and 1 p.m., and ensuring greater consistency between The Remembrance Day Act and The Retail Business Holiday Closing Act in terms of both closure requirements and penalties.

The amendments also include an employee's right to refuse work on Remembrance Day and at the same time ensure that those who must work receive fair and adequate compensation as set out in The Employment Standards Act for work performed on a general holiday. Thank you.

318 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 19 96 Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 51- The Civil Service Superannuation Amendment, Public Servants Insurance Amendment and Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 51, The Civil Service Super annuation Amendment, Public Servants Insurance Amendment and Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia pension de la fonction publique, la

Loi sur !'assu rance des employes du gouvernement et la

Loi sur la pension de retraite des enseignants), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce Bill 51, The Civil Service Superannuation Amendment, Public Servants Insurance Amendment and Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act. The three acts being amended provide pension and life insurance benefits for civil servants and employees of Crown corporations, boards and agenc ies and pension benefits for public school teachers. There are essentially four types of changes bemg made to the acts.

The first type of amendments are to the two pension plans to allow days off without pay under reduced work week programs to qualifY as pensionable service by agreement with employee representatives for the two years covered by The Public Sector Reduced Work Week and Compensation Management Act. The employee cost of this will be paid out of surplus employee contributions in the two funds. Following that, employees will pay their share as part of their regular pension contribution. The second type of amendments are those necessary to implement changes agreed to with employee representatives.

Under The Civil Service Superannuation Act, the Employee Liaison Committee and Employer Advisory Committee recommended several changes which are being incorporated in these amendments. They will allow employees to purchase service in respect of several types of leave. These are maternity and parental leave service, periods of seasonal layoff when employees are converted from year -round to seasonal and equivalent to full-time service for employees who choose to reduce their hours to less than full time and who are within five years of retirement.

In addition, as agreed to with the Manitoba Govern ment Employees' Union, correctional officers will be permitted to retire up to five years earlier than normal. The full cost of this change will be paid for by a one percentage point increase in the contributions of correctional officers. Under the federal Income Tax Act this earlier retirement is only available to public safety occupations such as correctional officers. The final change agreed to with the MGEU in the '94- 96 agreement is a transfer of $7.95 million of surplus in the group life insurance fund to the province.

The change will allow similar transfers by agreement between other employers and employee groups participating in the plan. A third category of changes are those required by Revenue Canada to ensure the pension plans remain registered for income tax purposes. These changes do not significantly affect the benefits payable under the two plans. Finally, there are a number of amendments of an administrative or housekeeping nature that were recommended by the boards of the two pension plans.

These amendments serve to clarifY the meaning of various sections and provide for more streamlined and responsive administr ation of the plan. All of these changes have been reviewed by the actuaries for the plans to ensure they are financially sound . As the changes that impact benefits are being made on a I 00 percent employee-paid basis, there will also be no increase in the province's or any employer's liabilities with respect to these changes. Thank you. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I move, seco nded by the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), that debate on this bill be adjourned. -

June 4, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 85 Motion agreed to. * (1 450) Bill 30- The Dairy Act Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews), that Bill 30, The Dairy Act (Loi sur les produits laitiers), be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr.

Enns: Madam Speaker, the purpose of the amendments to The Dairy Act at this time is to provide the dairy production and processing industries in Manitoba with the framework which addresses the future needs and demands of the local, national and international marketplace while ensuring the high standards of dairy product safety and that quality are maintained. A brief s umm ary of the amendments contained in the act provide for a more business-oriented structure for the operation for the development of the dairy industry in Manitoba.

Under the new Dairy Act, Manitoba is positioned to adopt a harmonized Canada-wide system of dairy product production, processing and inspection standards. On a national level this will serve to remove some of the interprovincial trade barriers. The adoption of harmonized Canadian standards will pave the way for the imp lementation of a more efficient streamlined dairy inspection system to reduce duplication and inefficiencies of effort between different levels of government.

It is worthwhile to use this kind of an occasion to remind all honourable members that Canada's food system is ranked among the best in the world providing safe and wholesome food. Food inspection programs provided by the province and the federal government remain committed to ensuring that food standards and inspection systems continue to require the highest levels of food safety. Provincial food inspection programs such as we have in the Manitoba dairy sector, in particular, have over the years evolved into a highly respected, multifaceted service to the industry and the consuming public ensuring food safety.

As the increasingly competitive global market develops, it is necessary to ensure that our efforts in supplying a wholesome and safe food supply are recognized not only by Manitobans and Canadians but by our export customers, as well. It is also necessary to recognize current national objectives which have been established to have one set of Canadian harmonized food safety standards and an efficient, streamlined food inspection service recognized across the country. Recognition and achievement of national objectives will lead to the removal of barriers to interprovincial trade that are now in place.

The amendments that I am presenting before the House in this dairy act are designed to address aspects related to national harmonization, food safety quality and demands of the international marketplace. I might say that these recommendations are the result of several years of work by the different dairy organizations, not just in Manitoba but across Canada.

It was back in 19 94 that the federal and provincial and territorial ministers of Agriculture endorsed the blueprint docum ent for the Canadian food inspection system, which called for the national standards setting of many of our processing regulations and, of course, perhaps the most regulated in that sense are the food products relative to the dairy industry.

I can indicate to honourable members of the House that these amendments are strongly supported by Manitoba dairy producers and the Manitoba dairy marketing board, and I look forward to their representations and their explanations and support for the bill at the committee stage when next we meet. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned on this bill. Motion agreed to. Bill 31- The Livestock Industry Diversification and Consequential Amendments Act Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I am privileged to move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 31, The Livestock Industry Diversification and Cons equential Amendments Act (Loi sur la

31 86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 diversification de l'industrie du betail et apportant des modifications correlatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Eons: Madam Speaker, I am very privileged to provide fiuther introduction to this bill, whose purpose is to provide agricultural diversification opportunities to Manitoba farmers. This is the bill whose intent is to allow Manitobans to game farm and ranch native wildlife species such as elk in a licensed, controlled manner.

The act will allow the sale of game production animals, meat and nonmeat products from approved, licensed sources. Value-added opportunity through the establishment of a processing industry will also develop, which will provide economic opportunities to Manitoba communities. The Livestock Industry Diversification and Consequential Amendments Act has been developed to differentiate between wild populations of animals and those raised by producers. Manitoba Agriculture will be responsible for ranched or farmed animals.

The Manitoba Department of Natural Resources will continue their responsibility for the animals in the wild. Both departments will work co-operatively in the development of game farming in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, game farming will come to Manitoba under the jurisdiction of the Department of Agriculture on a licensed basis on private land only. Game production animals must originate from approved sources in Manitoba or other areas of Canada. Animals and their progeny will be registered and identified. Standards will be established for the health and genetic requirements of game production animals.

Record keeping and reports will be an important component of the game farming program. These criteria are all designed and regulations will make it clearer to protect native species and the clear distinction between the ability to game farm domestic elk and at the same time maintain healthy herds in the wild.

Although slaughter and meat value of these animals is not foreseen as an immediate result of this, primarily because of the value of the animals from a breeding point of view, nonetheless, some provisions for the appropriate mann er and way the meat products of these animals can be handled will be contained in the act. Just a little bit of background, in Canada livestock species other than our traditional livestock, cattle, swine, poultry, sheep, goats, horses, are being raised by producers on farms and ranches. Producers are raising both non-native and native livestock species.

Non-native species such as fallow deer, wild boar, ostrich, emu, can be raised in Manitoba without a licence or a permit. Bison, a native American species, can be farmed without a permit or a licence. Different world cultures domesticate and raise different livestock species. It is only recently in North America that members of the deer family are being raised. Elk are a species that are being raised by producers in seven provinces of Canada. Manitoba, as members will know, had experimented with elk ranching earlier on in the mid-'80s but then placed a moratorium on further game farming in the year 1986.

There are some elk held in captivity by some five or six operators. Those are issues of policy that the governm ent certainly will have to deal with in a fair and equitable manner to the satisfaction of all. In Canada in 1995, approximately 19,000 elk are being ranched. Game farming is an industry valued in excess of 15 8 millions of dollars in 1994. Game farming is a livestock diversification opportunity and The Livestock Industry Diversification and Consequential Amendments Act will allow Manitobans to participate in its development.

Among the particular notes of interest in the introduction of this act is the opportunity that I believe it provides for members of the aboriginal community to participate in this type and form of agriculture diversification. I have had the privilege of having several representatives from the aboriginal community speak to us directly about their interest. I should report to the House that one of the aboriginal bands is currently assisting my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Driedger) in the housing of some of the captured animal that were captured in the last winter season and, quite frankly, I hold out this as a tremendous opportunity for some real economic -

June 4, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 87 opportu nities to be realized by aboriginal future elk ranchers and fanners who have, in my opinion, an excellent opportunity. They are well situated in terms of their land base. There is a tremendous opportunity in terms of the type of management required to engage in this opportunity .

It is a hope that I have that the Manitoba Department of Agriculture will be able to work co-operatively with any and all Manitobans interested in this form of future agriculture diversification and, in particular, with any of our aboriginal members who have indicated an interest in elk ranc hing in the province of Manitoba. I look forward to active discussion and

part icipation by all members at committee stage in this House. I am sure that when next we meet in the fall, this bill will be one of the bills that will receive considerab le attention by all members of this House and members of the general public. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate on Bill 31 be adjourned. Motion agreed to. * (150 0) Bill 68-- The Farm Lands Ownership Amendment, Real Property Amendment and Registry Amendment Act Bon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourab le Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 68, The Farm Lands Ownership Amendment, Real Property Amend ment and Registry Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la propriete agricole, la

Loi sur les biens reels et Ia

Loi sur l'emegistrement fancier) , be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, concern for ownership of Manitoba farmland began in earnest in the mid-19 70s, which resulted in the then government passing what is known as The Farm Lands Protection Act of 19 77. That act has been in force since 19 84, with only relatively few amendments.

However, at this time, there has been little evidence to indicate that the nomesident or nonfamily farm corpora tions, in particular Canadians or corporations owned by Canadians, have created serious or undue restri ctions for Manitoba fanners wishing to purchase Manitoba farmland, and it is principally for that reason that I am making the following amendments, a number of amendments, to The Farm Lands Ownership Act.

Among them will be to recognize Canadians and corporations owned solely by Canadians and Canadian landed immigrants to purchase land in Manitoba without exemption from the Farm Lands Ownership Board. In other words, whether you are living in Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia or Nova Scotia, you are a Canadian and you can buy farmland in Manitoba. That is a fairly major diversion from the original act, and I am sure that will catch some attention by honourable members opposite.

We will increa se the amount of land that any non Canadian individual or organization can own from the curr ent 10 acres to 40 acr es. That is more of a kind of a housekeeping change because the honourab le member who is familiar with rural Manitoba understands that the 40 acre often does not require a subdivision. Ten acres does and it has proved to be an onerous clause in the bill. We will eliminate the discrepancy which allows a transfer of land to foreign intere st through inheritance s. There has been some tightening up of the act in that sense.

We will limit the land that fanners can transfer to rela tives that are not other wise eligible to the land that they have fanned themselves for at least 10 years. We will allow spouses to take joint inter est in land in Manitoba with an eligible person. We will expand the defmition of fanning to include hortic ulture and game fanning. We will eliminate the need for declaration forms one and two for individuals and corporations respectively by including the pertinent questions on the appropriate land titles instrument, for example, the transfer document. My colleague the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Pallis ter) is always encouraging us to reduce wherever possible forms, additional regulatory requiremen ts.

31 88 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 We will set out the time for divestiture and will provide an option for the board to extend the time allowed. We will allow the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council to establish limits on maximum amounts of farmland held or size in terms of shareholders of qualified Canadian organizations. We will provide the board with the power to require reporting of interests in farmland in order to establish a database of foreign holdings. Quite frankly, at this particular point in time, we do not know how much of our farmland is indeed own ed by foreigners.

We will allow the board the option of assessing a foreign purchase fee in cases where the benefit to the province of a particular transa ction is not obvious and to deter foreign speculation. We want to maintain the force of the act to be able to use it to the benefit of Manitoba and Manitobans . It will still be used to deter straight land speculation where foreign interests are sometimes interested in purchasing Manitoba farmland and then simply having it stay in dormancy as a speculative land venture. Madam Speaker, these are but some of the amendments to the act. Again, I look for active debate on this issue.

When the next bill appears before the committee, I recommend its passage to the House. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate on this bill be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 70-The Animal Care Act Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): I move, sec onded by the honourable Minister of Mines, and Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Praznik), that Bill 70, The Animal Care Act (Loi sur le soin des animaux) , be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr.

Enos: Madam Speaker, honourable members will recall that several years ago most of us were concerned or offended at unacceptable manner of treating animal s, in this case, small puppies, at what is commonly referred to as the puppy mills. What that did, Madam Speaker, was have the Department of Agriculture, under whose jurisdiction various pieces of legislation that refer to animal welf are exists, to look seriously at the legis lation and its adequacy.

I am pleased to, at this time, provide honourable members with some further thoughts at second reading of The Animal Care Act, which is a bill whose purpose is to provide for the continuation of protection of animals from abuse while consolidating legisla tion contained in two acts, The Animal Diseases Act and The Animal Husbandry Act.

At the same time, licensing provisions are to be incorporated to provide for licensing of dogs and breeding operations. * (1 510 ) We attempt to bring in this act the various components of animal care and animal use, if you like, by our society, a clear separation between those animals that are used in agriculture, for instance, on a commercial basis.

The bill specifically makes reference so that animals under those circumstances, whether they are animals such as our dairy animals or beef animals or our mares that are used in the pharmaceutical and the PMU industry, are cared for and maintained according to codes of practice that have been adopted by these various organizations and come under regular inspection. There is a clear understanding that in the agriculture that has always been there, that mankind has availed him or herself with the use of animals for many different purposes.

There is no excuse, never has been an excuse, to do that in a way that is unnecessary, unmindful of the animals' welf are. So animal welf are is the pre-eminent concern within the legis lation. Then there is the other

section of the act that deals more with what we call companion or pet animal s, more specifically about how these animal s also are deserving of society's care and protection. There is the differential between what I would like to refer to-and we tried to make that reference in the bill, honourable members will appreciate . It was not our will to come in with heavy hand of overregulation and heavy ann of government into the hobby breeder, that legi timate and responsible dog owner who in a most responsible way abides with all the - -

June 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 318 9 rules set out by such organizations of various dog breeding organizations, perhaps members of the Canadian Kennel association, that breed their female dog and produce one or two litters for sale during the course of the year, as distinct from the commercial aspect of that where upwards to 10 , 15 or 20 animals are housed in kennels and, regrettably, under certain circumstances, have then not always received the kind of care that most of us would like to see any animal, whether it is a conunercial animal or pet or companion animal, receive.

So, Madam Speaker, the act is a comprehensive act. It is my hope that we have encompassed most of the concerns that a committee that worked very dili gently on making recommendations that are contained within the act. I should say that the bill incorporates recom mendations made by the Law Reform Commission in its recent report Animal Protection that was published in February of 1996. The bill provides for appointments of inspectors, the powers of inspection and seizure. It also provides for the systematic seizure and disposal method geared to the type of animal involved.

There is also provision for intervention such as seeking care for distressed animals, rather than seizing and disposing of them. The bill provides for licensing dog and cat breeding establish ments when the number of animals being kept exceeds specified limits . Certain activities will be classed as accepted activiti es in commercial animal raising as long as the operating practices are consistent with a code of practice or operators use generally accepted practices in current use in their industry. I wish to compliment and acknowledge the work of a committee that included such people as Ms.

Vicki Burns from the Winnipeg Human e Society. I know that we had some municipal officials, we had Ed Peltz from the R.M. of Woodlands along with representations from the Canadian kennel association headed by my director of the veterinary lab, Dr. Neufeld, worked for a period oftime. The apology that I perhaps have in not having had this bill brought to the House sooner, it was partly the difficulty created by having different sections of animal care, legis lation housed in two different pieces of legisla tion that I have already ref erred to, The Animal Husbandry Act and The Animal Diseases Act.

We had to pull together from these other acts the current legis lation that has been placed before you. Madam Speaker, I hope this bill too will receive the scrutiny it deserves by members of the committee, and eventually I would like to think full support of the House in its final passage. We do this in keeping with the concern that we all have that we treat our animals appropriately and with welfare. Thank you. Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): I wonder, Madam Speaker, whether the minister might be willing to answer a few questions with respect to this bill at this time.

Mada m Speaker: Is there leave by the honourable minister to respond to some questions by the honourable member for Swan River? Mr. Enns: Yes. Ms. Wowchuk: As we look at the bill, we look at Clause 2, and it appears that there are some very strong regulations put in on the duties of the owners and provisions, and just a little ways down there are a bunch of exemptions. I wonder why, if the minister could give a bit of a clarification where in one

section he makes it look like there are going to be fairly strong regulations on how animals should be treated to ensure that they are treated safely and in the next

section there are quite a few exemptions, and if the minister could just explain why it appears that one

section eliminates the strength of the previous section, please. Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, I try to accommodate all the members as willingly as I can to respond to any questions or queries they have on the bill, this is probably more appropriate to deal with it at committee stage. I will just to try to answer as best I can. One of the real challenges in this bill was to recognize the different types and pur poses that animals are cohabitating with us humans, as pets, is one thing. Pets when run in commercial kennels is another thing, and animals used in commercial farming is another level.

So there is what is appropriate at one level had to be exempt at another level. Like, it would not be appropriate, for ins tance, to make a regulation that every pet dog has to be housed in a prescribed type of a kennel made of

31 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1996 stainless steel, so many square feet or something like that. There is no need to do that for the hundreds and thousands of dog owners and lovers with a pet cocker spaniel, but if you are keeping 20 or 30 of them, then you have to prescribe specific regulat ions. So you prescribe those regulations, but in the next

section you exempt the one-dog owner from that regulation. I have to acknowledge as a rancher, and I just spent this last weekend trading some-there are particular clauses in the act that talk about undue stress and anxiety on animals. Well, as the honourable member who is not that far removed knows full well that on the farm at different times of the year, particularly what you do to young male beef animals, that provides a considerable amount of stress and anxiety. I engaged in that all weekend, and I thought about the bill that I was going to be introducing to the House in a little while.

So that is why they are exempt from some of those clauses, the wording put in there, but practices have to adhere to code of practices and the industry standards that are accepted. The honourable member knows that we are always currently updating those code of practices. We have just set out a code of practice for the raising ofhogs, for the raising of beef cattle, for the mising of dairy cattle, for the raising of poultry, and somewhere in a code of practice, a practice undertaken by an owner of these animals has to abide with them. That is what the act tries to say. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ms.

Wowchuk: I would like to ask the minister, then, one more question, and that is, when the minister indicates that in different sectors of agriculture there are codes of practice that livestock producers should be following, would those codes of practice supersede or override this legislation? I am looking for clarification. What guidelines would the hog industry follow�) Would they fall under this or is it the guidelines, the codes of practice that have been brought in for the livestock industry? * (1520 ) Mr.

Enos: The honourable member is aware and I believe has a copy of the orange book of codes of practices and rules and guidelines with respect to acceptable methods of hog production. This bill and the regulation of this bill specifically refer to those kinds of codes of practice that have to be followed. If somebody is not operating according to that code of practice, that orange book of code of practice, then under this bill that person can be prosecuted. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I wonder if the honourable minister would permit one question of clarification.

Mada m Speaker: Does the honourable member for Brandon East have leave to ask the honourable Minister of Agriculture a question? [agreed] Mr. Leonard Evans: My question relates to a constituency matter that arose a few months ago. I wanted to know specifically, does this legislation give the minister and his department responsibility for licensing humane societies and also, if a person has a complaint about a local humane society, do they have the right to, say, appeal to some branch of the minister's department now?

The instance that I refer to, there was complaint against the administration of the local humane society. There did not seem to be any method by which the individual had any redress, any recourse for getting a correction of the problem as they saw it. Mr. Enos: Madam Speaker, the honourable member for Brandon East asks a question that I have difficulty to answer. My quick answer is that this act is not the act that establishes or in any way has a control over the establishment of humane societies.

It could come under some ofthe other older pieces of legislation, The Animal Husbandry Act or The Animal Diseases Act, but I do not see anything in this act that specifically makes references to the control, the setting up or the regulation of humane societies. I am trying to think as I stand on my feet whether or not the humane societies as we know them are not in most instances creatures of municipal governments. I could be wrong, but I will take the question as further notice, and we will get the answer.

Of course, his question will be transcribed in Hansard, and we will have staff provide him with fuller and more up-to-date information than I have been able to provide on this occasion. -

June 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 91 Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 62- The Jobs Fund Repeal Act Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that Bill 62, The Jobs Fund Repeal Act (Loi abrogeant la

Loi sur le Fonds de soutien a l'emploi), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, this act was introduced in 1983 and was to have been a fund made up of $200 million worth of "new money" that the government of the day intended to use for dealing with the economic challenges of the day.

It has always been the intention of our government to dismantle this fund and return responsibility to the various departments where the programs originated, thus making it easier for everyone to uncover how the money was being spent and whether or not it was being appropriately accounted for. We recognize that there is an increased need for accountability and that process has to be readily understood by the public. This fund was mainly used for short-tenr.. projects and, in our view, failed to meet its goals in attempting to create long-term employment.

The previous administration compounded the problem by making basic information about the fund difficult to provide to the public. We are now taking the action that we indicated some considerable time back that we intended to do; that is, we will repeal this act because no real information about the total expenditures that occurred under it were made available in an appropriate fashion. Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 37- The Ambula nce Services Amendment Act Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that Bill 3 7, The Ambulance Services Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services d'ambulance), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, Bill 37 contains housekeeping amendments to The Ambulance Services Act and will change the name of the legislation. Emergency medical response systems and stretcher transport programs are taking on a role in the type of programs we commonly call ambulance. Extensive public hearings that we held on emergency services have identified the need to regulate such new programs.

Therefore, the Minister of Health will be given authority to license these classes of programs, and we will change the name of the act to The Emergency Medical Response Act to recognize the increased scope of emergency services in Manitoba. Consistent with these changes, some

definitions will be broadened. We will also enhance inspection powers to make enforcement of standards easier, ensure a consistency with existing provisions in other legislation and clarify language that is now ambiguous. Finally, we are amending sections of the act dealing with regulations to ensure that the processes for suspending or cancelling a licence are properly defined. Thank you. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. * (1 530) Bill 38- The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act

(2) Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), that Bill 38 , The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2

319 2 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 19 96 modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'as surance -mala die), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, this bill contains house keep ing amendments to The Health Services Insu rance Act. It will allow the Minist er of Health to decide if someone in Canada under a ministerial immi gration permit should qualifY as a resident of Manitoba and be eligible for insured health bene fits. Manitoba Health now considers that persons holding certain kinds of ministerial permits do not come under our definition of resident. The amendment clarifies existing policy.

The bill will ensure the confide ntiality of clinical, medical or other records examined, audited or copied by inspec tors. This ref ers to situations when the inspectors are investigating claims for benefits submitted by practitioners who receive payments for services from Manitoba Health. It will also allow recovery of money paid to a medical practitioner for a service that was not provided even if the pract itioner's right to practise is suspended, cancelled or not renew ed.

The bill transfers authority to the Mini ster of Health from the Lieu tenant-Govern or-in-Council to make regulations respecting physicians' fe es. This will facil itate the process for administering the agreement between the government and the Manitoba Medical Association. Finally, the bill clarifies provisio ns respecting the tying of per diem personal care charges to income. Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would ask if you could please take Bill 39 and put it in after Bill 42, please. Bill41-The Fisheries Amendment Act Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): I move, seconded by the Minist er of Energy and Mines (Mr. Praznik) , that Bill 41, The Fi sheries Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la peche), be now read a second time and ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce to the House, Bill 41, The Fi sheries Amend ment Act bill. The new bill incorporates licensing and fee powers and makes provisions for dealing with pro\'incial jurisdiction issues, such as allocation of fish res ource s, aquaculture, fishing tourname nts, safety and stock enhancem ent.

The Fisheries Amendment t.ct will consol idate and co-ordinate authority for the licensing and allocation of all aquatic organisms harvested in The Fi sheries Act of Manitoba. Some of these matters are contained in fe deral regulations but rightfully belong in provincial legisla tion. The new act will allow the transfer of appropriate fe deral regulations from the Manitoba fishery regulations 19 87 to provincial regulati ons. The intent is to transfer administr ation and regula tions, not to make changes to the regulations.

The sec ond component of the legis lation is to inco rporate the authority to control leech harve st in the province. Currently, there is no specific authority to administ er the harvest, and, as interest continues to incr ease for the commercial harve st of bait leeches, the amendment \\i ll help to manage the resource more effectively. The benefits of the new act will reduce Manitoba's dependency on the fed eral government to enact regulatory changes, meaning more flexibi lity and being more responsive to local needs.

It also will reduce the possibility of fe deral fisheries policy being imposed on the province, and it will provide authority to meet today's legi slation needs and deliver the fisheries strategies for the 1990s. It also will provide for greater local input into management solutions to fishery issues; it will enhance administration and improve efficiency. Now the exclusions to the new act will include: fish habitat issues will remain with the Canada Fisheries Act; fish in privately owned water bodies will remain under fe deral jurisdiction; fisheries issues related to Indians and - -

June 4, 19 96 LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 31 93 Indian lands will remain under the federal jurisdiction; federal parks will remain federal jurisdictions as they are now. Madam Speaker, the new act will be beneficial to Manitobans in that it will give the province more flexibility and the ability to be more responsive to local needs. It will provide the government with the authority to meet today's needs and allow for greater local input into fisheries management across the province. It will enhance administration and improve efficiency. Thank you. Mr.

Leonard Eva ns (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 42- The Northern Affairs Amendment Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), that Bill42, The Northern Affairs Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les Affaires du Nord, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this most honourable House. Motion presented. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the purpose of this legislation is essentially an amending bill that makes a variety of housekeeping and, I think some would say, significant amendments in changing, in particular, our process for allowing the incorporation of our Northern Affairs communities into totally self-governing bodies. The bill currently is required to resolve, as well, some

interpretation issues in the act : to provide a better process in support of community incorporation; to facilitate continued growth in community respons ibility; to deem the minister to be a municipality for the purposes of The Provincial-Municipal Tax Sharing Act; and to deem a community to be a government agency for purposes of

Section 79 of The Financial Administration Act. The Northern Affairs Act is based on the local government concept and has drawn heavily on parts of The Municipal Act.

The proposed amendments include an item that forms the basis for daily community staff oper ations, such as the place of council meetings, the clarification of provisions respecting disclosure of information, provisions for communities to establish fees for providing copies of by-laws and other authorized docum ents, the taking of oaths, the enactment of by-laws on the basis of the printed copy thereof, as well as provisions for the community clerk or administrator to do both the clerk's and treasurer's duties. The bill also clarifies the reporting relationship of auditors appointed by the minister.

Madam Speaker, additionally, this bill, on the advice of Legislative Counsel, brings the incorporation process, which is currently under The Northern Affairs Act, into line with the process used under The Municipal Act by having incorporation proceed by regulation directly from the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, rather than directing the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to issue the articles of incorporation. The bill also clarifies and stren gthens the government's authority to set off debts owed to a community by a third party.

This is a particularly important addition in the legislation, because in a variety of cases our community councils, Northern Affairs councils, provide services to neighbouring communities and are not paid for those services. Often those communities are eligible for funding for various reasons from the province, and this will fully authorize us then to make the appropriate set-asides to ensure those legitimate debts are paid to our community councils from neighbouring communities. The legislation also provides for reciprocity in this arrangement, as well.

One particular important provision in this act deals with the incorporation process. A concern of a number of communities that have considered becoming incorporated and taking on their full responsibilities has been whether or not their council would survive the incorporation. This particular piece oflegislation proposes to the House that we would allow a council that is the legally elected body representing that community, after incorporation to continue in their terms of office until the next scheduled period for elections .

I think that was an important point that has been brought to our attention to ensure that there is an ability to have a uniformity and a continuity through that incorporation process. Should members opposite have any particular questions regarding the specifics of this legislation, we

319 4 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 19 96 would be delighted to deal with them during debate or in committee. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. * (1 540) Bill 39- The Pari-Mutuel Levy and Consequential Amendments Act Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Enos), that Bill 39, The Pari-Mutuel Levy and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi concernant les prelevements sur les mises de pari mutuel et apportant des modifications correlatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, we should maybe refer to this as the Paul Edwards destruction bill, but that would not be fair. Madam Speaker, I am pleased to say a few words about this new act that will replace The Pari-Mutuel Tax Act, which is being repealed.

For several years revenues raised by the Manitoba Department of Finance under The Pari -Mutuel Tax Act have been distributed back to the horse racing industry via the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism and the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission. However, because these amounts were raised as a tax, The Financial Administration Act required that they be reported in the province's books as revenue and the amounts distributed back to the industry be rep orted as an expense.

This resulted in the inflation ofboth the province's revenues and expenses on account in a transaction that ultimately had no effect on the province's net financial position. Given the above, and after consultation with the Department of Finance and the race horse commission, it was concluded that this transaction would be better accounted for as a levy for the promotion of the horse racing industry in the province of Manitoba rather than a tax.

A conclusion was also reached that efficiency of government operations and accountability for the transac tion would both be enhanced if the levy was both administered and accounted for by the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission. Under the new act, the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission takes on the responsibility for licensing of operators and administration of pari-mutuel betting systems. Under The Pari-Mutuel Tax Act these functions were performed by the Department of Finance.

Pari-mutuel tax is converted into a levy to be remitted to the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission and also rebated to the horse racing industry by the comrr.ission. The rate of the levy will be set at the same rate as the existing pari-mutuel tax but can be varied by regulation. The commission v. ill retain I percent point of a levy as a licence uffset to cover a portion of the commission's operating expenses. The balance of the levy will be deposited to a Pari-Mutuel Levy Fund, which will be used for th� promotion of horse racing in Manitoba.

Distributions from the levy fund will be governed by an annual distribution plan approved by the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Tourism and v.i ll be publicly available for inspection at the commission's office. The annually audited financial statements for the fund will be included as part of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission's annual report. The Agricultural Societies Act currently enables the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) to authorize agriculture societies to retain tax that would otherwise be payable under The Pari-Mutuel Tax Act.

The prO\ision of The Agricultural Societies Act has been amended to enable the Minister of Agriculture to authorize agriculture societies to retain the levy which would otherwise be payable to the commission under The Pari-Mutuel Levy Act. Consequently, the financial status of agriculture societies v.i ll not be affected by the new act. Implementation of The Pari-Mutuel Levy Act will enhance management and accountability while reducing the government's administrative burden. I hope that the House sees fit to support this new act, and I look forward to hearing the comments ofthe members of the House.

Thank you for the opportunity to put these words on the record I commend it to committee and to passage as soon as possible, Madam Speaker. - -

June 4, 19 96 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 95 Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 43-- The Municipal Assessment Amendment, City of Winnipeg Amendment and Assessment Validation Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that Bill 43, The Municipal Assessment Amendment, City of Winnipeg Amendment and Assessment Validation Act (Loi modifiant 1a

Loi sur !'evaluation municipale et Ia

Loi sur 1a Ville de Winnipeg et validant certaines evaluations), be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of the House. Motion presented. Mr. Derkach: It is my pleasure to introduce for second reading today Bill 43, and we are confident this bill is going to assist Manitoba communities and in particular the City of Winnipeg in providing timely and effective assessment services to Manitoba's taxpayers. What I am introducing are a series of amendments that will help to strengthen new assessment legislation which we first introduced back in 19 90.

The need to make adjustments has been precipitated in large part by a request from the City of Winnipeg. The city asked that we consider a number oflegislative amendments to assist them in addressing difficulties they have been experiencing with the assessment process. Madam Speaker, before detailing the changes I would first of all like to say that we consulted with the municipal organizations in this province and they have expressed their support for this legislation. The following reflects some of the more substantive changes contained in Bill 43.

Perhaps of greatest significance will be the extension of the reassessment cycle from a three-year period to a four-year period. It had become increasingly evident that the City of Winnipeg would not have been able to meet the 19 97 deadline for reassessment. This change will give the City of Winnipeg more time to deal not only with the backlog of assessment appeals but with appeals that will arise as a result of the next reassessment. The intent of moving the next reassessment to 19 98 is to allow the city almost a full year to hear appeals before reassessment will be used for budgeting and tax purposes.

It will also allow the city to get in sync with the time frames and the cycles that are being used effectively in the rest of the province. In the meantime, the change will be equally beneficial to the remainder of our communities and municipalities. Reassessments every four instead of every three years will also result in savings by requiring reassessments less frequently but, most notably, it will provide greater financial stability to municipalities in being able to plan and deliver services around a stable assessment and tax base.

By allowing additional time for the hearing of appeals prior to delivery of assessment rolls to municipalities for budgeting and taxation purposes, municipalities can have greater confidence in revenue streams once budgets are struck and mill rates are established. This will be true, as well, for school divisions in their planning since their revenue is directly attributable to the amount of assess ment within their respective school districts. There will still be provision by which Manitobans can appeal their assess

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-45
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 45.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	793f36d8decc82b25406071457d86fe29e1203b0

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