ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 61A - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 5 MAY, 19 83. Printed by the Office of the 0.-ns Printer. Province ot M11nit-

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT , Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHI LL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHER MAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 5 May, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East . MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR. CLERK, W.H. Remnant: Your Committee met on Thursday, May 5, 19 83 to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

The Committee accepted the resignation of Mr. Lecuyer as Chairman and elected Mr. Eyler to fill this position. Your Committee received all information desired from Mr. Olafur P. Sigurdson, Chairman of the Board and Mr. Carl A. Laufer, President and General Manager with respect to matters pertaining to the 1982 Annual Report and the business of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. The fullest oppo rtunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to seek any information desired.

Your Committee examined the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the fiscal year ending October 31, 19 82, and adopted the same as presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for lnkster, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Western Canada Health Manpower Training Study MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I should have been up for the Tabling of Reports. With your permission, I would like to table the report for the Western Canada Health Manpower Training Study, and inform the members of the House that copies will be made available for the different caucuses and the Provincial Library. RETURNS TO ORDER NOS. 1 and 2 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: My apologies, Mr. Speaker, for not having risen sooner.

I beg leave to file Return to the Order of the House No. 1, dated December 15, 1982, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park and, Mr. Speaker, to file Return to the Order of the House, No. 2, dated December 15, 19 82, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, for the honourable members of this Assembly, we have been provided with copies of the 18 th Annual Report of the Manitoba Hog Producers' Marketing Board. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Question, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Gallery. We have three visitors from The Ministry of Education in Iceland, Messrs. Hjalmarson, Armansson and Helgason. There are also 19 students of Grade 5 standing from the Landmark School under the direction of Mr. Penner. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield. There are 23 students of Grade 8 standing from the Major Pratt School, which is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell.

And there are 15 students of Grades 5 and 6 standing from the Mountbatten School under the direction of Mr. Isaacs. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Niakwa. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Core Area Initiative Agreement MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs. It is with respect to the federal and provincially approved redevelopment plan north of Portage Avenue. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the reports that a decision must be made by tommorow if the Federal Government is going to follow through with its contribution, is it the position of the Urban Affairs Minister that a decision 2414

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 must be made by tommorow and, if not, what are the consequences? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The position, it appears of the Federal Government, is that there has to be an answer by tommorow. That condition has not been opposed by the Province of Manitoba.

The Province of Manitoba is awaiting further discussions with the City of Winnipeg as to whether or not they want to enter into that kind of development or wish to discuss some other alternatives, but the Province of Manitoba has not imposed any condition of the sort that's being suggested by the member. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Provincial Government was involved with the Federal Government and approved a scheme that went to the city, the details of which we are not certain, can the Minister indicate what the consequences are to the city, if the City of Winnipeg Council does not approve the plan by tomorrow? Can he also confirm the amount of Core Area Initiative funds that are to be diverted from the Core Area Initiative plan to the redevelopment plan north of Portage Avenue, and what projects would that diversion of funds affect? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I, unfortunately, didn't hear all of the

preamble to the question, but the part of the

preamble I heard suggested that the province and the Federal Government had agreed on a proposal and then had taken it to the City of Winnipeg. That, with respect, Mr. Speaker, is not true. There were discussions held between a representative of the Federal Government, myself as Minister of Urban Affairs and the Mayor of Winnipeg, as far back as, I believe. March 16th, on a proposal that was being advanced by the Federal Government and the discussions at all times included the City of Winnipeg's representative.

So the proposal was not generated by the levels of government in isolation to the city, but included at all times a representative of the City of Winnipeg. In regard to what the consequences of a lack of a city decision, in this regard by tomorrow - I cannot answer that. I presume the Federal Government has some need or some reason to have immediate decision and, with respect, that would be a question that would be best answered by the Federal Government, because I've not been told what the consequences of a lack of decision by tomorrow night may mean. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, does the Urban Affairs Minister support the diversion of funds away from the Core Area Initiative programs that have been approved, and does he support the imposition on the city of freezing or forgiving taxes in the sum of $2 million per year for ten years? Does he support the imposition of the requirement on the City of Winnipeg to build a parking garage in the amount of some $30 million? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do support a further extension to the Core Area Initiative Agreement.

I do support the idea that there be further funds expended by the Federal Government directly, and through other projects that are being discussed at the present time. I support further involvement from the Provincial Government to complement and further expand on the activities of the Core Area Initiative to provide greater development in the centre of the city and much-needed jobs. With respect to the particulars of that proposal, there has not been any agreement on any of the specifics and there is very much conjecture at this point. Shoal Lake - sewage di sposal MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Urban Affairs, can he confirm that the Provincial Government has approved a plan to build a $1.5 million sewage system in the Shoal Lake area in order to attempt to solve the Band's waste disposal problems? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Mr. Speak er, as this matter has fallen into my area of responsibility as Minister of the Environment, I'd be pleased to answer the member's question.

What the province has done, consistently, is attempt to work with the Shoal Lake Indian Band, the City and the Federal Government to determine a way by which the sewage and garbage disposal problems in that community can be best resolved. That plan which the member referenced is one of the ideas which has come forward. We certainly have not rejected it, we are prepared to discuss further with other parties as well as we are prepared to discuss further with other parties other options which may be available to us.

So, we have not indicated that is the only option that is available to us, but it is one that is on a long list, yes. Shoal Lake Indian Band - proposal re cottage lots MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister then, does the Minister support a cottage lot development by Band 40 and does he support the construction of a highway from the Trans-Canada Highway to serve such a cottage development? HON. J. COWAN: What we have done, Mr. Speaker, as a government, is review those particular options which have been put forward by the Shoal Lake Indian Band.

We have tried to determine if, in fact, they can be accomplished in an environmentally sound way. I think the general impression is that one would rather not pursue those options if one were to pursue the safest course possible. So, what we have been involved with, and here is where my colleague, the Minister for Urban Affairs, has been more active is in sitting down with the City of Winnipeg, sitting down with the Shoal Lake Indian Band, sitting down with the Federal Government in order to determine ways by which the economic needs of that community can be addressed and at the same time 2415

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 ensure that the City of Wi nnipeg water supply is adequately gu arded aga inst any environmental degradation. The cottage lot proposal does not appear to fit in well with that latter goal. So, we certainly would far prefer to see what other forms of economic development take place in that community. In respect to a road, no, we have not approved of any road from Shoal Lake Indian Band to the Trans­ Canada Highway. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, one final question to the Minister of Urban Affairs, has the Indian Band filed their development proposal with the Federal-P rovincial Committee, I believe, that was to undertake the environmental review? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The filing of that response is not to any Federal-Provincial Committee, rather it's to the Federal Government Environmental Impact Study group, and as far as I know - I have not been informed that has been indeed filed as promised by the Band to this date. Main Street Manitoba Program MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the absence of the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I direct my question to the First Minister and would ask him: Since it has become evident over the past year that the Main Street Manitoba Project has not stimulated the upgrading and the development and the jobs that it was intended and implemented for, would the Premier personally now get hold of this particular project and change the criteria of the program so that towns and villages throughout the Province of Manitoba can use some of these funds to upgrade their main streets, namely, things like sidewalks, curbs, and other things that are of an infrastructure nature that will create summer jobs for people as well as help clean up some of the main streets in the province?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Spe aker , ther e are a considerable number of applications that are before the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Department of Municipal Affairs. It having now reached the point of spring, reached the point when a great deal of construction can be done, I'm sure that the applications will be dealt with in an expeditious, as well as a wise manner, to ensure that there is maximum return for the dollars that will be expended. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the First Minister, we have heard that now for almost a year from this particular government.

The question that I would pose to the First Minister, in light of the fact that money has been taken from the Highways Department and put into the Jobs Fund, would the First Minister then - let's leave Main Street Manitoba aside, because nothing has happened there - would he consider implementing a program with some of the monies he's taken from Highways and from the drainage people, and implement a prog ram for rural Manitoba which will see towns and villages allowed on maybe a 50-50 cost­ sharing basis to upgrade sidewalks and curbs without all kinds of fancy types of applications; allow the rural areas to dress up their main streets; to do some of the capital works that they wanted to do, and create some summer jobs for people in Manitoba?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to just mention for the honourable member, in case he missed the announcement, ther e has already been an announcement of substantial sums of monies insofar as sewer and water in concerned in various rural towns and villages in Manitoba. I want to assure the honourable member and indeed all Manitobans, there will be further announcements that will be of benefit to towns and villages of Manitoba. Insofar as the Main Street Manitoba Program is concerned, Mr. Speaker, it is progressing.

There will be announcements made and the Minister will be in a position to make announcements over the next number of months pertaining to that program. I'm sure the honourable member will be quite pleased, as indeed, all members will be, on the satisfactory progress and the improvements that will be made as a consequence of announcements pursuant to the Main Street Manitoba Program. Cross Lake - arena MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Northern Flood Agreement.

We were informed in the Committee on Na tural Resources and Public Utilities that Hydro is undertaking the construction of an arena in Cross Lake, the estimated cost of which is going to be $3.5 million. The arena has been termed by a lawyer for the Cross Lake Band as being "a little bit classy." We were told in the committee by Hydro officials that this arena was being constructed on the basis of an order from Judge Ferg, who is th e administ rator of the No rthern Flood Agreement. Will the Minister undertake to table a copy of that order from Judge Ferg? HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, I certainly can undertake to table that once I have it in my possession. I will attempt to do so as soon as possible, and as well, provide any other information which the member would request that is of a public nature of that sort - certainly. MR. B. RANSOM: A supplementary to the Minister of Northern Affairs, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister of Northern Affairs advise whether or not Hydro has the sole responsibility for carrying out the construction of the arena at Cross Lake? HON. J. COWAN: No, my understanding of the situation is that Hydro would be one of the parties involved in 2416

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 ensuring that the arena is constructed, but I think it would be unfair to say that they would have the sole responsibility of carrying out the construction. But I would certainly want to clarify that with my staff, to ensure that that is indeed the case. But it's my understanding that that would not be an appropriate analysis. MR. B. RANSOM: A final supplementary to the Minister, Mr. Speaker. The Minister indicates that one of a number of parties is involved.

Can the Minister either advise us now, or undertake to advise us, of who the other parties are that would be involved in the delivery of this construction? HON. J.

COWAN: Well. it would be my opinion, Sir, and I may stand corrected on that, but at this time it would be my opinion that Hydro would be one of the parties, that the Provincial Government would indeed be involved in some way or another, that the Federal Government would be involved and that the Northern Flood Committee or the Community of Cross Lake - to be more specific - would be involved and that the Northern Flood Committee, or the community of Cross Lake to be more specific, would be involved in that construction project.

Now perhaps the member wants a more detailed legal question, but certainly we've been approaching from the perspective that all the parties to the Northern Flood Agreement would be involved in one way or another in the development of that arena. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, then I have a further question. Mr. Speaker. Who would make the decision in terms of the design of the arena. or the amount of money that might be expended in constructing the arena? HON. J. COWAN: Well, in this case the order or the direction which has been given is fairly explicit.

The arena must be constructed to meet the needs of the community, needs which it has been felt have been diminished because of the flooding activity in the area as a result of Hydro construction and other activities by Hydro. So certainly the construction of that arena would have to meet with the requirements of the order, and the requirements of the order would be that recreational facilities and recreational opportunities that have been denied to the individuals of the community because of the flooding activities should be met by way of this arena.

So the community itself would be largely responsible for determining exactly what should be done in respect to meeting those needs and what sort of facility this should be. Now there is a process of negotiations where all the parties sit down and try to determine what is acceptable to each party, but a large part of that responsibility rests with the community itself. Crow rate MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORC HARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Agriculture.

Can the Minister indicate when the Standing Committee on Agriculture will be meeting to write our report on the recently completed Crow hearings? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the committee would be able to meet within a week or so to complete that report. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speak er, on the topic of the Crow issue, has the Minister of Agriculture or his counterpart, the Minister of Transportation, undertaken any calculations to determine whether the proposed change in method of payment, that being away from the farmers and directly to the railroads, has the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Transportation made any calculations to determine the amount of monies which will be lost to Manitoba farmers and livestock producers from that change in method of payment? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe that there will be any loss as a result of any changes in the method of payment. What changes will be made is that basically the Federal Government, as we understand it, has moved away from the Gilson proposals which we were totally opposed to in terms of where Pepin was going, but we still have great concerns about what the final outcome and proposals will be as to be presented by the Minister of Transport in Ottawa. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba Farm Bureau at the first of this week made a position known to the Minister of Transportation and I assume the Minister of Agriculture, indicating a fairly significant loss to Manitoba farmers. Those figures were presented and I would ask the Minister if his department or the Department of Transportation has had an opportunity to peruse those figures of estimated loss to Manitoba farmers, either concur or disagree with them, and provide an answer to the Manitoba Farm Bureau? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, yes, an analysis as brief as it was after receiving the presentation on Monday was done and the answer was communicated to the Manitoba Farm Bureau that we disagree with their analysis and that there would be no loss to Manitoba farmers by virtue of the change in method of payment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also would like to ask a question of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture dealing much on the same subject as raised by the Honourable Member for Pembina.

Since it appears there is growing concern about the position taken by Manitoba Pool, and indeed Saskatchewan and Alberta Pools, and there are now presently being held throughout Western Canada a series of meetings by those concerned producers, is 2417

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 it the intention of the Minister of Agriculture to have a watching brief on those various meetings and then possibly incorportate in the final report on the Crow some of the concerns that are being presently expressed at those meetings? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that what is being proposed and talked about by the Farm Bureau and others about this alleged loss is basically what will, as we understand it, be the movement of money from one pocket to the other. We have determined in terms of we disagree with that analysis, Sir.

With respect to the meetings that are going on now by farm groups, I'm sure that they will make their views known. We intend to, Sir, make our position known whenever we have the opportunity as a government to appear before the House of Commons in Ottawa whenever the bill is being presented. Whether we will do it as a committee of the Legislature, go down to be present in Ottawa, or whether we will do it as a government, has not been finalized but, Sir, we will make our views known as a government in terms of our concerns, even though there have been substantial movement in the changes that have been made.

I would want to take this opportunity, Sir, to commend the wheat pools of Western Canada and, of course, this government, my colleagues, the Government of Saskatchewan, and people from Quebec in making a concerted effort to make the changes, some of the changes that were greatly opposed by people of Western Canada. MR. H. GRAHAM: A supplementary question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he is the least bit concerned with agriculture in the Province of Manitoba, and if he's willing to listen to the views that are now being expressed, since the latest report of the Pepin proposal has come out? Because I can tell the Honourable Minister that there are very sincere concerns presently being expressed in Western Canada as of this week. Would the Minister consider a watching brief on those meetings? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that we have been concerned all along in terms of the proposed changes. In fact, Mr. Speaker, we have attempted to assist producers during difficult times, but the honourable member should know that it was members on his side who supported the Gilson Proposal, the method of payments, along with the Manitoba Farm Bureau, which we as a government, along with the western prairie wheat pools and the Government of Saskatchewan, totally rejected, Sir.

That has now been finally - the light has maybe hit Ottawa or maybe at least the Minister of Transport and there is some change there. Mr. Speaker, we have taken the position that one segment of agriculture should not benefit at the expense of another sector of agriculture, and that has been our fundamental position in terms of this issue, in terms of the method of payment, because that's what will happen, Sir. MR. H. GRAHAM: A final supplementary question to the Minister of Agriculture.

Since he appears unwilling to listen to the changing mood of agriculture in Western Canada, will be please get his head out of the sand and start looking after the affairs of agriculture in the Province of Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, if anyone is reticent and is not listening, it is the members opposite and the Member for Birtle-Russell, Sir, because it is about time, and we're very pleased that there has been some change at the national level. There is no consensus and there was no consensus as was put forward by the Manitoba Farm Bureau and supporters of Gilson, Sir.

Now that there is some change, Mr. Speaker, I see that there seems to be, on the opposite side, some concern that the changes are not being welcomed and somehow that the position taken by the Saskatchewan Government, by the wheat pools is not being welcomed by members opposite. I fail to see that kind of position coming forward from the Member for Birtle-Russell, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the Minister has indicated that he does not want to see any group disadvantaged compared to another group in the agricultural industry by changes to the Crow Rate, can the Minister confirm that direct payment to the railways, instead of a prorated payment to the farm community , the farmers , will further disadvantage livestock producers in the Province of Manitoba at the direct expense of livestock producers in Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should look at history as to what has happened when feed grain prices have dropped in this country and across the world. Whenever there has been a major drop in feed grain prices, there has been, as sure as day follows night, an increase in livestock production. Then what happens? Prices drop to depressed prices and we have major, major demonstrations and major pressure on governments to assist the livestock industry, Sir. There is no way that what should happen is that kind of a cycle should be gone through at the expense of grain farmers, Sir.

That is the reason we reject that position , Sir. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, the Minister, if he chooses not to, does not have to answer any question, but could the Minister please attempt to answer the question I posed to him not two minutes ago as to whether or not the livestock producers in Manitoba will be further disadvantaged by the proposed change in method of payments from the farmer now directly to the railroads, and that disadvantage will be directly given in return to livestock producers in Quebec at the expense of livestock producers in Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that announcements made at the time 2418

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 that the Pepin proposal was made, that livestock producers in Eastern Canada were given the pledge that they would be no less off than producers in Western Canada. These changes, Sir, will not change the historical relationship that producers in Western Canada have had vis-a-vis transportation costs. If there ever was a distortion, the distortion will not change, Sir, because it is in place and will be in place as . MR. H. ENNS: The distortion is there. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I don't accept the word that there is a distortion in terms of one sector of the industry as another, Sir.

I do not accept that proposition . We have taken a position that payments should not be made directly to producers. It was supported, Sir, by the wheat pools, the Province of Saskatchewan, and the Province of Manitoba. It was not supported by the livestock industry, Sir, and we reject any notion that this proposal should be put back into the plan. Manitoba Government - logo MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the First Minister. The question is, Mr. Speaker, can he confirm that the government has awarded a contract to a designer, Mr.

Tom Powell, to redesign the Manitoba Government logo? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I'd take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. Gasoline prices - North MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Consumer Affairs. Earlier this Session, I raised my concern in this House about the high cost of gasoline in the North. Since that time, the Minister has initiated a preliminary investigation of the matter in response to the complaints from myself and hundreds of other Northerners.

I was wondering if the Minister could indicate what the present status of that investigation is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: In response to the question from the Member for Thompson, he is quite correct that some time ago we did initiate a study. We had a staff person go to Northern Manitoba and make some fairly extensive investigations of the prices. That person returned to southern Manitoba. A number of questions were raised as a result of that study. The oil companies were contacted about seven weeks ago.

Unfortunately, we have received a report from only one oil company at the present time. A number have indicated that they may be supplying information by the end of May, and I believe two have not yet responded. We are following that request. MR. S. ASHTON: In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that this matter is of some concern to my constituents, I was wondering if the Minister could indicate to the oil companies that we'd appreciate a response as soon as possible. We have been waiting for long enough now to find out why we're paying so much money for gasoline in the North. Manitoba Government - logo MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to follow up with the First Minister on that question about the award of contract to redesign the Manitoba Government logo. Is Mr. Dan O'Connor still the Premier's press secretary, and would he be empowered to award this sort of contract without the Premier's knowledge? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated that I will be taking that question as notice. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, with an almost $600 million deficit and concerns about the province's ability to carry out its financial affairs, with 54,000 unemployed in this province, is the redesign of a logo a high priority of this government? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had made it clear a few moments ago when the Honourable Member asked a specific question, made reference to a specific contract and named an individual, that I was taking the question as notice. MR. H. ENNS: You piddle-diddle with our buffalo and you'll have more than bikers on your hands. Recreational facilities - rural Manitoba MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct this question to the Minister in charge of recreation.

In light of the fact that the Federal Minister of Immigration seems in a big hurry to spend some of our tax money on different projects such as another arena in downtown Winnipeg, I wonder if the Minister of recreation could possibly use his influence within his Cabinet to try and get maybe only 5 percent of that $400 million that the Minister of Immigration is throwing around that would give us something like $20 million to redo the arenas, curling rinks and recreation centres in rural Manitoba, which are really the core of many of the rural communities in rural Manitoba? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 2419

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think that it should be remembered that we're looking at the urban, the core area of Winnipeg, and I have confidence in the Minister of Urban Affairs to develop some programs that will be helpful. I don't think the people of Manitoba in the rural areas are suffering as far as the - (I nterjection) - that's right.

I don't think they're suffering at all when we talk about the facilities that have been brought in through lottery funds of the program that was initiated during the time that I had this responsibility before. My honourable friend that asked the question knows very well that this has been a very successful program and that it has been very helpful to rural Manitoba and it's filled a need. I don't think that we have to apologize for that at all. If my honourable friend wants to join me in trying to get more funds from the Federal Government, I'm game to join with him on that also. MR. R.

BANMAN: Well, a supplementary question, in light of the fact that the City of Winnipeg does already have an arena and we're talking about spending another $25 million on another facility, and in light of the fact, as the Minister knows, that there have been limited funds in the last number of years that have been allocated to the redevelopment of recreation centres and curling rinks and arenas and there are some municipalities in rural Manitoba who are facing some serious problems with their recreational facilities right now because of the new safety codes that we're talking about and other things, and not minimizing the lotteries program which has gone a certain way in helping that, I wonder if the Minister would not agree that instead of using this type of funds to duplicate a facility in Winnipeg, maybe some of this money could be used - 5 percent of the total pie, that's all we're talking about - be used for upgrading the facilities in rural Manitoba and maybe in some of the suburban centres of the City of Winnipeg?

HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I have never had the assurance that any of these programs have been approved by either the province or the Federal Government. I think there is a lot of information that we probably do not have at this time. I would like to know this without taking it as a fait accompli that there is going to be a new arena here. The fact is what is going to happen to the old one, that's another factor that I think is very important.

I don't think we're doing the people of Manitoba in general, especially in the core area, people any favour by trying to question something before we get all the details and finding out what the recommendation will be. Now, that's easy to say, we only want 5 percent. I would imagine that the people in the core area then will probably want only 5 percent of all of the progra ms that have helped the rural area and maybe that'll even itself up. Abortion clinics MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

He apparently reported this morning as indicating that the government is carrying on a review of the operation of therapeutic abortion committees, could he explain what area of concern the government has with the present operation, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, what was indicated this morning is what the Minister of Health indicated the other day, that we are examining a full report in respect to the provision of legal abortions in the Province of Manitoba, the facilities that are available in order to ensure that the same be carried out, and whether or not those facilities are adequate or not. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, is the government considering whether or not a decision as to whether or not there should be a therapeutic abortion committee will be imposed upon a hospital board by the Provincial Government? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, this is a follow-up of the questions that were directed to the Minister of Health the other day and the Minister of Health will deal with them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, there certainly has been no change on that. There is no one that is trying to force anything on any hospital or any individual. What I did say and what I repeat now is to look at the facilities and to look at the needs to provide the legal abortion.

I also stated that there will be a Cabinet paper, this will be discussed and any new policies will be announced in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Is it now the policy of the First Minister to use the Information Services, which reports to his office directly, use that service to congratulate Ministers of his Cabinet on the great job he thinks they're doing? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, some of my colleagues are wondering because I have been rather remiss, I must acknowledge, in not comp li ment ing and congratulating my colleagues for a job well done and at this point in the Legislature I would like to commend each and everyone of my Ministers for doing an earnest and committed job on behalf of the people of Manitoba. A MEMBER: You said it with a great deal of conviction, Howard. Information Services MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister makes light of the expenditure of tax funds to try and polish the image of his government while 54,000 people go unemployed in this province.

I asked the First Minister 2420

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 a question, Mr. Speaker. Is it the policy of his government, of he personally, in his office, to use the Information Services as a means of trying to polish the image of his individual Ministers? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, I can understand, and I certainly don't chastise honourable members across the way for being thin-skinned in respect to the number of initiatives and programs that have been undertaken by this government, are in the process of being announced by various Ministers of this government as well as myself over the last several weeks, announcements that were made by way of Information Services release forms in the traditional way, Mr. Speaker.

We will continue to announce those programs so that Manitobans know full well the kind of initiatives that are undertaken by this government, particularly in respect to the question of reducing unemployment in this provi nce. Because let there be no misunderstanding, this New Democratic Party Government has as its first priority an all-out effort to mobilize the resources of this province in order to reduce unemployment in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C.

Santos: We are now on Item No. 6 (a)(1), which is Lands, Administration: Salaries - Mr. Minister. HON. A. MACKLING: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, if I could just read the heading, the activity. The Administration Branch under this

section provides administrative, financial and personnel support services for the Lands Program; ensures that program objectives are clearly defined and responsibility is delegated to the appropriate areas; monitors progress and response to enquiries. There's no change in the staff years here. The only change is in the increase in the general salary increase in this item. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, several questions of a general nature.

Is it the Department of Na tural Resources, as I recall it ought to be and continues to be, the department that sets out the costs associated with the management of Crown lands to the different user groups? I'm referring specifically, for instance, those Crown lands that are designated for agricultural purposes - correct me if I'm wrong - but they are being administered by the Department of Agriculture - agricultural lease lands. But who sets out the costs associated with the management of that land and then these, which in effect sets the base for lease and rental charges for the use of that Crown land? HON. A.

MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that all of the costing in respect to rental is done by the Department of Agriculture who operates and administers the rental of the agricultural Crown lands. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I want to make it very clear and put it on the public record that, of course, I declare a personal interest in the matter, being a lessor of some Crown lands, but I don't feel that ought to stop me from asking some specific questions.

The questions really that I want to get at - and the Minister can direct me if he is not the appropriate Minister to be responding to this - his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, has indicated rather substantial increases in the rentals for agricultural Crown lands over the next few years, increases of a nature of just a doubling or of 100 percent, I think, taken in two or three steps; a 25 percent increase this year, followed by further 25 percent increase projected for the following year, as well as for the year thereafter, I think, to arrive at a significantly higher rental increase.

The rationale given for doing so is to recover more of the costs accruing to government, to the department, in the management of these lands. My question is: Are these costs that have been accrued by the Department of Agriculture in their management of the Crown lands, or does this department pass on certain base costs? Do they say to the Department of Agriculture, here, you can continue using these Crown lands, but these are some of our costs associated with it and we expect a return from them? HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr. Chairman.

I understand that we just - once the lands have been classified as suitable for agriculture, they are turned over for administration by Agriculture. We really don 't indicate to that department what the costs ought to be, rentals. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just so that I understand that, so the Minister of Agriculture can't really blame this Minister for those rather significant increases in Crown land prices at a time that the cattle industry is still generally depressed and not moving forward as it should be. Fine. That answers that question, Mr. Chairman.

The Minister indicates that there have been no specific or physical changes in this department. That would seem to be borne out by the Estimates before us. Can he - well, I suppose we'll wait until we see Regional Management, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions at this point. 2421

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 MR. CH AIRMAN: 6.(a)(1)-pass - the Member for St. Johns. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: I would like to ask the Minister, Mr. Chairman, if I may, how many acres or sections of land we, as a government, have in Manitoba? H. ENNS: Many. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Wait a minute. No, no. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I don't have ready at hand the number of acres or hectares or square miles or sections. There is a considerable amount of the province which is Crown land. Everything north of the agriculturally developed area, great parts of it, if not the overwhelming majority, is Crown land.

Of course, the area beneath the lakes is considered to be Crown land. So I think the best reference that one could have which would give a very sweeping, ready view of what lands exist would be the new atlas that we have, which gives, in a pictorial way, a display of lands generally and what Crown lands exist as well. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I believe that we are leasing land for the farmers. If this is the case, on what basis and how much are we charging? Now, what I have in mind is, do we lease land for beginners?

It means the young people who are just starting their farming or who are just continuing from one family, like, for instance, from father to son or mother to daughter, or something to that effect. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, when Crown lands are identified, they are classified as suitable for agriculture. They are turned over to the Department of Ag riculture and it is under that department that they carry out the rentals. I am not in the position to comment on the rentals charge. I think the Member for Lakeside may be correct in his assessment that there are increases in the rentals.

I'm not sure; I can't say how they compare or what they ought to be. I really know nothing about that, except I believe that the Department of Agriculture, yes, does accommodate farmers, particularly those who are starting out. I think that they try to accommodate the new farmer and the farmer that is on marginal land and needs more land, particularly, for enlarging the number of cattle he supports, and so on. I don't think this is based on any partisan view of agricultural development. It's a reasonably progressive agricultural policy that's been practised for a succession of governments in the province. MR. D.

MALINOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I would like to find out, from the taxation point of view, that for the same

section of land which we, as a government, if we are leasing, we are paying the same kind of taxation like the private, or is it different? How can the government tax itself if it is owner of the land? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman . . . MR. H! ENNS: The chairman threw a curve ball at the Member for St. Johns. HON. A. MACKLING: The Crown does not tax itself.

It does, however, in respect to lands that are leased for agricultural purposes, undertake - out of the rents that are collected - to reimburse the municipalities in which the lands are, or the Local Government Districts, for the amount of the appropriate taxes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6. (a)(2)-pass; 6. (b)( 1 )-pass; 6.(b)(2)-pass; 6.(c)(1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, (c)( 1) Regional Management, what is going on in terms of habitat improvement on the Crown lands?

Do you want that question asked under Wildlife or is that an appropriate question to be asked here in terms of how some of your Crown lands set aside specifically for wildlife purposes are being managed or improved? Is there any particular ongoing program in that area? HON. A. MACKLING: I think that I could indicate under Wildlife our initiatives. There're not all that magnificent, I'm afraid, in respect to acquisition of land for wildlife habitat.

But under the classification of Lands, when it goes through the Classification Committee even though it may be classified for agriculture, if it is deemed in an area where it's critical for additional wildlife habitat, then in that case it may be reserved for wildlife habitat - the Crown land. When it continues to be Crown land but it's managed by Agriculture, we still have some guidelines that are given to the lessee in respect to retention of portions of the land as wildlife habitat so that it all can't be cleared in the first year or even the second year.

There are indeed restrictions that are placed on that Crown land that is leased for agriculture so that we don't have soils that should never have been plowed put under the plow. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, is there before this Minister and this government any specific requests for long-term lease or rental agreements of Crown lands by Ducks Unlimited at this time? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I guess under Wildlife I could confirm that. Of course, the Saskeram area is Crown land.

A good deal of the land, I believe, in the immediate environs of the Oak and Plum Lakes - Ducks Unlimited have an interest in development there, they continue to have an interest in it there. I believe that there are an extensive number of areas throughout the province that are Crown wetland, and Ducks Unlimited have involvement. Some of them are much, much smaller of course than areas like the Saskeram. MR. H. ENNS: I appreciate that general information, Mr.

Chairman, but I was asking specifically about agreements that are due for renegotiation or resigning for continued management by Ducks Unlimited for wildlife purposes. Let's deal with the Saskeram area as a specific indication. It's my understanding the lease runs out this year and has to be renegotiated and signed for another period of time. My question to the Minister is what is this Minister, this government's policy, with that respect? 2422

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 Are they preparing a further long-term lease, 15, 20 year lease or precisely what is the government's attitude with respect to this question? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I could endeavor to give some precision to the general answers but I'm wondering whether or not it might not be appropriate to leave it under Wildlife, because there may be some of the honourable member's colleagues who will be asking similar questions and I'd rather not be repetitive on this. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm easy this afternoon and I accept that suggestion from the Minister.

I was asking these questions under the question of Regional Management of Crown lands making the assumption that your managers are managing this resource but I can just as easily ask them under Wildlife and will do so. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you. MR. H. ENNS: Pass, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(cX1)-pass; 6.(cX2)-pass; 6.(dX1l - the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, some time ago this business of registry has been put on a computerized program is my understanding. Could the Minister give us some updating of how that is coming along, the registry of Crown lands and computerized program?

HON. A. MACKllNG: Mr. Chairman, I should have introduced Amie Barr, who's the Director of this Section. He had just confirmed to me that we're about a year­ and-a-half away from having it fully completed - the full computer banking of all this information. MR. H. ENNS: How is that working, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister? One of the purposes, of course, of getting into a more modern system is (

a) the complicated nature of proper registry of lands and also to help speed up the process of people dealing with the government when lands of any description are involved. The paperwork was often long and unending and took a great deal of time. I think the hope was, when it was decided to go this route to computers, that it would considerably improve the efficiency of the staff and turnaround time, and meeting requests from the general public when dealing with them. HON. A. MACKL ING: Mr.

Chairman, I think the honourable member is correct that there has been an ongoing concern to facilitate the general public in its needs for expeditious treatment of applications and processing of lands. Presumably, that is why - and I accept that - the computerization of the data has been pursued. I am advised that there is a terminal now in Thompson to access the data there; other centres like The Pas are to follow. Right now, it's complicated because we are managing two systems. We're feeding into the automatic system, but we are still doing a good deal of the work manually.

One ol the problems that we have is that although we process the Crown land transactions. they have to go through the screening in connection with other interest groups such as Hydro and Utilities to make sure that all of the interests of everyone, including municipalities, in Crown land has been taken into consideration, and that's time consuming. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, we are being co-operative this afternoon and, with that in mind, maybe I would be allowed to refer back or I can do it, of course, on the whole resolution; but I refer to a question that I had of a general nature and that was Manitoba Hydro, and the Minister's reference to Hydro brings it to mind. Manitoba Hydro has for many years, and this dates back many years ago, placed very large reserves that affect Crown lands and their potential use by ranchers or for recreational purposes in different parts of the province. Mr.

Chairman, I don't think anybody takes exception to the need for that action taken in some instances some 30, 40, 50 years ago or more, but there are areas where decisions have, in fact, been made where projects have been put in place and where the government can again reassert its authority to act on some of these lands. I am referring specifically to those areas where dams have been built, whether it's in the Grand Rapids-Cedar area where by lake regulation, Lake Manitoba, we are, under statute, bound to specific levels.

Yet, it seems to my mind that there were still, in some cases, substantial caveats placed on large sections of land. I recall having run into that some few short years ago when it was my privilege to be in your position. Is that still the case, or is the department, is the branch actively moving to search out those areas where in fact a caveat placed against this land 40 years ago, whether or not it's still valid, or is there a system of review under way. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I know that as we get specific requests from people who have an interest in Crown land and if it should be in an area that is subject to a reserve, that is, a reserve for hydro­ electric purposes, we have, I think, a pretty efficient system with Hydro. It does take time, particularly developing surveys of the property.

I think that while the system has worked very well, I think the honourable member has a good point that it could well be that there are areas in the province now where we know with some precision that the capacity of the system is taken up and we can look at the extent of the continuing reserved land and I think that there is merit to that suggestion.

So, while it's a very expensive process to survey and map out, I think that we have to look at areas that we believe are fully developed from a water-use base and as far as we can see in the future, see whether some of the areas that may be still under reserve ought to still be under reserve. MR. H. ENNS: Well, just a final note on that, Mr. Chairman. I want to indicate to the Minister my support tor looking at this area and I think Hydro ought to be challenged periodically as to the validity of some of these long-standing reserves that they have set out, in some cases rather arbitrarily.

As I said at the outset, I don't fault Hydro for doing that initially, I think it was sound public policy to designate in a fairly generous 2423

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 way, potential lands that may be subject to changes in water levels and it's only prudent that that was done many years ago. But, nonetheless, there are certain areas in the province tha t have reached the ir maximum development, are bound by statute or other agreements with respect to specific levels. I'm referring to such agreements as was entered into, the Northern Flood Agreement with the different people associated and concerned about levels.

I'm talking, of course, about those areas where over a past number of years, a pattern has been set which hardly is likely to be changed in the future, indeed, physically can't be changed because of the nature of the structures in place, the scale, the scope - it's set. So, I think without wanting to necessarily put the load on the department or the branch, I just simply think Hydro ought to be challenged to come before the department, come before Mr. Barr from time to time and justify their continued claim of some of these lands and I leave it at that, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 6.(d)(1)-pass; 6(d)(2)-pass; 6(e)(1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: I would invite the Minister now to tell us what he's going to do about the wild rice situation with respect to the Northern Development Agreement on Wild Rice that we have in this case. That, of course, involves again a substantial amount of Crown lands. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, as honourable members know, a Wild Rice Act will be introduced into the House this Session. I have looked at the preliminary draft and it should be available relatively soon.

What's involved in the development of the Act, of course, is a formal way of administering the resource to ensure that the resource is effectively controlled from the point of view of licensing of people to be able to develop where wild rice can be further developed through water­ control measures, by seeding and so on, and will provide for a licensed harvest of the resource. The Act and the regulations that come with it will enable that kind of fuller administration of the resource.

There continues to be, of course, harvesting of wild rice in the natural area, confined at the present time to the Whiteshell and Nopoming Park area. But there is, in the mind of the department, a very realistic potential for wild-rice development further beyond these areas where natural stands now exist. I am referring to areas in both the Interlake and further north on the east side of Lake Winnipeg and right up to the northern Flin Flon area. We have conducted some seeding in some areas, for example, in some small water bodies in the immediate vicinity of the Waterhen Reserve, some experimental seeding.

Some experimental seeding has taken place under an extensive number of leases in the North, and it does appear that there is significant potential for wild rice in some of the northern area. Pursuant to the Act, it is expected that there will be two forms of licences. There will be a development licence for a short period, wherein the individual being licensed will be given an opportunity to prove up a development of the resource, and then a production licence for a fixed term. Licences, of course, would be transferrable.

I thi nk tha t when the Act and the regulations are reviewed with all members, I think they will find that it will provide for a more effective and responsible technique of administering this resource which has a significant value, particularly for a lot of our Native people who live in close proximity to areas where wild rice now grows or can be grown. MR. H. ENNS: Can the Minister indicate to us the state of the industry, say, over the past three or four years? I think the measurement is usually either in pounds or in dollars.

Does the departmental staff have, say, the production figures for the last three years, for instance? I don't want to go .. HON. A. MACKLING: I am given to understand from Mr. Barr that it's highly seasonal, but it has ranged from a value of half-a-million to about 2 million pounds. The price has ranged from around 60 cents to $1 for green rice. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, what specifically was the reported production? I use the word "reported" because not all of it gets reported. What was the production last year? HON. A.

MACKLING: I am advised that the reported production, and I accept the qualification on that adjective that the honourable member makes, was 415,000 pounds. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the point that I am making, and I think it is one that the Minister is aware of and certainly his departmental staff is aware of - the fact of the matter is that for one reason or another - it serves no purpose to attempt to attach blame or pass overly critical comment as to why - but our rice industry in Manitoba is going downhill. It's not really improving.

I say this, particularly when we take note of what's happening in other jurisdictions that are also in the wild-rice business, either jurisdictions immediately to the south of us in Minnesota, or more particularly perh aps wh at's happening in the jurisdiction in Saskatc hewan, where an active program of development has shown substantial results in increasing the value of this industry and, of course, increasing substantially the returns made directly available, as the Minister says, in many instances to those people who have all too often very little economic base.

I am referring, of course, to our Native brothers. So this industry has potential and, going back a number of years, we were producing - acknowledging the fluctuation in price, but let's leave it then in terms of pounds - substantially more than we have in this past little while. We have been able to produce upwards to 2 million pounds. There are those that think that could be doubled or trebled with judicious management. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that a lot of that management has to do with the lack of a satisfactory regulatory system in place tha t encourages development, that encourages long-term planning in this area. Subsequently, the consequence has been less production, less returns to those involved. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am quite prepared to accept the Minister's word that a Wild Rice Act will be before 2424

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 us during this Session of the Legislature. I only caution him that the wild-rice industry harvest season has a way of sneaking up on us. Before we know it, it's there. We haven't seen any sign of that piece of legislation in the Legislature yet. I would encourage him to proceed with it with some dispatch, because plans have to made and another season could slip by without anything fundamentally happening . There were, of course, attempts made in the past to resolve some of the issues. I refer to some particular studies that were carried out by one Mr.

Harold Ross, whose study was subsequently studied by one Mr. Bostrom shortly after this government took over. Can the Minister comment at all on those reports? Would it be out of order to ask for whether or not some of the recommendations or all of the recommendations of either Mr. Ross or Mr. Bostrom will be incorporated in the new Act? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I want to confirm what the honourable member said. The study made by Mr. Ross and the review by Mr.

Bostrom, someone who has actually been involved in wild rice from a personal point of view, both the study and the review have been very helpful in formulating policy and the provisions of the Act. I can't recall here with precision, but a good many of the principles and policy thrusts contained in the study and the review are reflected in the final decisions in the Act. I want to say just briefly, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable member is quite right that while there appears to have been a significant potential for wild rice in Manitoba the last several years, the reported harvests haven't been as significant.

Mind you, a good deal of that can depend upon weather conditions, water conditions and the growing season itself, but we believe that perhaps a fair bit of wild rice that was otherwise harvested may not have been reported. There has been an inadequate reporting system. The new Act and the regulations hopefully will give us a better appreciation for what has actually been grown in the present areas. But I want to also confirm, Mr.

Chairman, that I wouldn 't say we are overly excited, but we are reasonably enthusiastic about the potential for significant increases in production in the newer areas that clearly have some degree of potential for wild rice, particularly in the North and in some of the areas that I've mentioned. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we await then the introduction of The Wild Rice Act into the Session, where we can have an opportunity to discuss the proposed new bill and offer the Minister our advice.

Let me, at this point, advise the Minister and caution the Minister that he would do well to look into the past and to avoid some of the obvious mistakes that were made. I call them mistakes. They were, no doubt, proposals entered into with the best of intentions in mind, and there is no dispute with this Minister, with this government, that this industry should be to a large extent, to the extent possible, made available to those persons living within the areas of Native background.

But I caution the Minister not to make some of the errors that have been made in the past in trying to put the cart too far in front of the horse. In other words, to get into very substantial capital arrangements for processing, etc., when the first thing that we have to do is develop the land, develop the resource base. We have to get the poundage of rice picked in Manitoba back to where it was, and as the Minister says, improved.

Then there is time to think about how to maximize and optimize the profits from that resource, and there are substantial profits to be recognized if the full processing can be done by our own people at the local level. There has been in the past a tendency to develop big organizations, big co-operatives; and all to often, in fact, within a very short period of time, it was putting too much, too fast, on the table and they subsequently failed. I don't know all the reasons they failed, but they failed.

We have in the past, and the department has had to in the past in some instances, on very short notice, try to pick up the pieces and try to subsequently police what can get to be a pretty feisty little situation on the lakes between competing persons who wish to harvest that crop. So I offer that advice to the Minister free of charge - it's my responsibility as a public servant to do that but I hope he accepts it in this manner. Mr. Chairman, just one further question. Have there been any staff changes in this part of his department?

Specifically , who is the person responsible in the department as Director of Wild Rice? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, Mike Thorvaldson, who is present, is of the department and has been leading the work in connection with the development of the Act, the regulations, and doing a fair bit of consultation in respect to not only the analysis of the report and the review of it, but views of others in the industry. We also have Allan Anderson, who is a member of the Interl ake Tribal Council, who has been assisting us as well in connection with the development of the Act and the regulations. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm only sorry that I didn't discuss this with the Minister last night because I was in a far more clearer frame of mind to express succinctly what I want to say to him. Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, 30 or 40 years ago when I worked in the wild rice area, I think Manitoba produced about 70 percent of the wild rice sold in North America, and now that figure has just been reversed. I doubt if we produce 30 percent now, and it would seem that the steps that are being taken are long long overdue.

I think there's a tremendous potential in this particular industry and there are people that want to get involved with the wild rice industry in developing it to its fullest potential. I realize the concerns and the efforts made to allow some jurisdiction to those that live in the area, with Native backgrounds, that want to harvest it, but I would urge the Minister to take a look at all and any of those entrepreneurs that are prepared to go in and develop the wild rice industry and let's get the production back where I think it should be and where it was at one time.

Could the Minister tell me what is required - how much red tape does someone have to go through to receive permission to develop a lake, a wild rice area, to plant and develop the resource? 2425

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say, and I believe it's true, that there isn't a great deal of formal difficulty in processing of applications. However, since we're at a stage in our development of

an Act and regulations where we hope that we're going to be able to target development to communities, particularly in the North and areas where there's new potential development, since we're in the early stages of development of wild rice, we haven't encouraged new applications until we get our administrative apparatus in order. So, I think that, yes, since we have made a commitment to the Act and development of regulations, we haven't made it easy for people to get new development licences, because we don't want haphazard development.

We want to be able to make sure that there's an equitable development of the wild rice potential. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, so we're liable to lose a year or two years. Will that Act be brought in this Session, and will someone who wanted to seed this spring and start developing a lake, will they be able to do so? Will that Act be in on time for them to obtain the necessary authority? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, as I'd indicated earlier, we have, as a department, carried out some experimental seeding in various parts of the province, and we'll be able to gain significant information from that with a view to further development. Certainly, we will have the Act and the regulations through, hopefully, this Session and this fall people will be able to seed green rice. MR. D. BLAKE: I'm aware that some areas have already been seeded, Mr. Chairman, and I would hope that if it comes to pass that they were able to harvest some this fall that they may be able to obtain the necessary authority without too much red tape .

Otherwise, that product will be bootlegged, as so much of it is done in the North today. Could he indicate if the department look with some favour if someone has gone ahead and developed, possibly without full authority, an area that's maybe conducive to the cultivation and the growth of wild rice more in its natural habitat rather than a controlled one, but having had some assistance from a commercial venture? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, there hasn't been a hiatus, there has been continuing development in wild rice. I'm advised that we have 25 leases in the North and we've got 129 applications.

There is intensive interest in some areas of the North. We do, however, want to get the Act in place and the regulations in place and our program developed before we really open the doors wide to new developments . MR. D. BLAKE: Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. We'll be watching with interest over the next one or two years in the Minister's Estimates, so that we can confirm then that the action and the direction that the department has been taking has been the right one. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(e)(1)-pass - the Member for St. Johns. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to ask the Minister, how many Native people are involved in this cultivating and harvesting of wild rice? A MEMBER: Everyone who wants to work. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: You are not the Minister, I'm sorry, I am not speaking to you. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, it's not possible for me to give the exact number to that. Historically, Bands - the Brokenhead Band in the Fort Alexander area, some of the Bands in the Interlake - have been involved over the course of many years in wild rice harvesting in the natural stands in both White Shell and Nopiming.

Some of these Native Indian people have, through their Bands in the past, obtained licences and they hold two blocks in the Whiteshell. They carried on a harvesting operation last year and they will continue to have an active role in development of this same area this year. In addition to that, there are some other leases that other Native Indian people have in, I think, the Nopiming area. Actual numbers, I couldn't give. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Thank you. One more question. Do they have a special privilege or are they just treated in the same way as anybody else who will be asking for a licence? HON. A.

MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, the block leases that are held by the Treaty Indian Bands, they allocate picking to Native people and whole families are involved in it. It's not only a part of their livelihood, but it is a part of a way of their life in some respects, because there is a long tradition of the harvest and it's a very important aspect of their cultural heritage. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6(e)(2)-pass. Resolution 121: Resolve that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,999, 200 for Natural Resources for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1984 -pass. 7.(a)(1) - Mr. Minister. HON. A.

MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, before I introduce the Forestry

Section of the Estimates, I'd like to acknowledge the presence of Harry Laws, who is sitting on my immediate left. He is the Director of Forestry. I'm advised and I say this with regret that Mr. Laws has, since he's arrived at an age where he thinks he ought to consider and has decided to take early retirement and will be completing his office with the department later on this year MR. H. ENNS: Can't put up with you, Al, eh? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, I guess that's part of it, Mr. Chairman. I want to here acknowledge, before we get into the thick and thin of Forestry, that I very much appreciated the co-operation, the teaching that Harry has provided to me in connection with this

section of the department. I've had the pleasure of his expertise on numerous occasions, and he's been extremely helpful to a new Minister in understanding this

section 2426

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 of the department and I sincerely appreciate his efforts. I know that he must have sincere regret about leaving, but he certainly has laid the basis through the planning and the initiatives that we have under way for a continuation of sound forestry practice in the province, and I think we all can be extremely grateful for his efforts for and on behalf of the people of Manitoba in this area. Now, in further introduction of this section, I could indicate generally what this item provides.

The administration of the Forestry Branch provides the overall direction, supervision and support services to the Forestry Branch. There is a small increase in salary here that reflects the general salary increase. There is no change, I believe, in the staff years in this section. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry to hear that Mr. Laws is going to be leaving the department. He certainly has a long and distinguished career in public service in Manitoba and we'll all miss him very much. The Minister says there's no increase in staffing here.

What about the entire branch, Mr. Chairman. Are there increases in the entire branch? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, I'll ask staff to give me the specifics of the numbers. We do have an increase in staff provided for by virtue of the expansion of the Hadashville Nursery and the establishment of the new Clearwater Nursery at The Pas. I'll give you the numbers. At the present time it's 2.32 staff years. There will obviously be more necessary as those facilities at Clearwater and at Hadashville are completed. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(aX1 )-pass; 7.(a)(2)-pass; 7.(a)(3) - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B.

RANSOM: Would the Minister just refresh my memory on what that grant is? HON. A. MACKL ING: It's the Manitoba Forestry Association grant and the Central Forest Products Association grant. The grant to the Forestry Association is 16 ,500 and Central Forest Products Association is 8,400. I might say, I'll put it on the record here, Mr. Chairman; my tribute to the work of the association. They were responsible, of course, for the greening of the Legislature the other day. I've been out to their facilities at or near Hadashville. I don't know what you call that centre. We're trying to recall it.

It's the Manitoba Forestry Association facilities, and that's on the - is that the Rennie River, what river is that? - on the Wh itemouth River, and they put on an excellent program. They have a lot of young people out there. I think that the contribution the province makes to that association is well-used, well-deserved. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Yes indeed, Mr. Chairman, they do good work and I expect that their expenses are likely rising as well.

I take it that within that grant of 24,900 for two different purposes then, that the Forestry Association has not received any additional money this year? HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(aX3)- pass; 7.(b)(1) - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: What's happening in the area of Forest Inventory, Mr. Chairman? Is the department undertaking any new initiatives here? Is it proceeding according to a long-term plan? Is the work that's being done adequate to keep a satisfactory inventory of the resource? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, we had the benefit of the completion of the 20-year forestry plan. On basis of that, of course, we have taken initiatives to provide for a more substantial reforestation program. I believe that the work of the Inventory

section is an ongoing activity; continue to provide aerial photography contracts to ensure the extent of the mature forest, and that forest which is available for harvesting; continue to, on the basis of this type of program, be able to properly interpret the resource from the many ways in which is important to do that. MR. B. RANSOM: Is it adequate? Is the work that's being done adequate to have a satisfactory inventory so that the resource can be properly managed or the opportunities for further development could be identified? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think that the 20-year plan and the observations that have been made by many people throughout Canada has confirmed that governments generally, and it's no criticism of the past administration or the administration before that, but governments generally in Canada have not spent as much in respect to reforestation as they ought. The resource is, has not been replenished as quickly as we're consuming it. No doubt we could be spending even more money in respect to forest protection and forest management.

We are developing a data service - I believe it's with assistance of the Federal Government - to upgrade our information and hopefully that will be complete in something less than two years. MR. B. RANSOM: There's a significant increase in salaries in this Forest Inventory and a decrease in the Other Expenditures. How would the Minister account for that? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, there is, true, a salary increase but that is based upon the general salary increase. There are 19 people there and it does reflect into a fairly substantial sum.

There is a small reduction in the aerial photography from 16 3,000 to 13 6. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(bX1) - pass; 7.(bX2)-pass; 7.(cX1) - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Perhaps the Minister could just tell us what's happening here, if there are any new 2427

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 development in mind? There had been some negotiations, if one could term it that, going on with respect to the development of particle-board plant, I think, and the possibility of making use of some of the aspen in Western Manitoba. What's happening in those areas, Mr. Chairman? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that those that were interested in development of the aspen in the use of particle board because of the economic conditions, the slowdown, did not wish to pursue those prospects and so there has been no further activity there.

I could elaborate on the activities that are carried on under this section. They comprise a renewal of joint efforts with the Department of Economic Development to establish a wood-utilizing enterprise in Manitoba, as identified in the Forest Management Plan. That would include any alternative uses for hardwoods; development options assessments in respect to Manfor and their uses, and they and Abitibi are the major users in Manitoba; participation and development of a Canada Manitoba Forest Resources Agreement.

As you know, or perhaps I failed to indicate that the Federal Government has negotiated agreements with some of the jurisdictions in Canada; have agreements I think with Nova Scotia; are activily negotiating with most if not all of the provinces at this time in respect to some degree of share-costing in respect to forest management and we are presently involved in that and that comes under this section. Also this

section has been involved in federal­ provincial efforts at job creation under The Unemployment Insurance Act. Oppo rtunities have been looked at for utilization of people on unemployment insurance. Some of the innovative programs that the Federal Government have we have looked at and considered for use in our forest sector. Federal­ Provincial Forests Industries Development Committee we've had a Manitoba Forestry representative on that. That's about it, Mr. Chairman. MR. B. RANSOM: As I recall, Mr. Chairman, Manitoba is one of only about two provinces, perhaps, which has a surplus of softwoods.

Is that still the case and, if so, is the Minister undertaking any special initiative looking into the future as to how that resource might be utilized? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I couldn't comment on our hardwood balance as against other jurisdictions. I assume that Saskatchewan and Alberta also have a fair amount of hardwoods, predominantly the aspen. But (I nterjection) - oh, you're talking about softwood, I'm sorry. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I apologize. I thought the honourable gentleman was concerned about areas that were not under active utilization.

Yes, our softwoods - although we have a very large extent on which we have usable softwood, a lot of it is in an area that is at this time inaccessible. Major road systems would have to be developed to make it usable; that is part of our consideration in our long-term planning. Certainly, it is a tremendously valuable resource but, as I indicate, a good deal of it is relatively unaccessible. MR. B. RANSOM: So there is nothing at the moment that could be considered very encouraging in terms of any further expansion of forestry development in the province? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to leave anyone with the misconception that we are not trying to ensure that as much development take place of utilizing our forest resource. However, the 20-year inventory that was completed indicated that given the present consumption rates of softwoods by not only Abitibi and ManFor but the smaller users, we will be running out of softwood for those users within the foreseeable future.

We don't have, into the future, an oversupply of softwood, and the report indicated that in order to meet that deficiency, we are clearly going to have to cope with that; that it was not only desirable, it was imperative that we move in respect to more rigorous reforestation. So that is the result or that is part of the reason why we have initiated reforestation projects. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Just on this, Mr.

Chairman, I just wonder whether the Minister could confirm that the Parkland Regional Development Corporation and interested groups, permit holders and so on in the Swan River area, are continuing to pursue the proposals with the Department of Economic Development and the Department of Natural Resources with regard to uses of hardwoods as well as softwoods in terms of the potential use of that resource in that area. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I know that the Minister, who is from Dauphin, has indicated to me his concerns on a number of occasions about utilization of some of our woods, some of our forests, particularly the hardwoods, the aspens. I share with him his enthusiasm for the potential that one day ought to be realized in the use of that resource. We do have some consumption, some use of hardwoods for box construction, relatively low grade lumber. We have some people, I think, who have carried out some experimentation with improvement of that.

I am advised that the Winnipegosis plant has reopened its mill, but I think they use both softwood and hardwood in that. There have been studies made, proposals, for using poplar or aspen for pulp, a different pulp process in using chemical treatment differing than the treatment that's used on softwoods. They are interesting; they have potential some time in the future, but at the present time there is a difficult market in respect to our existing pulp operation. So the times are not propitious for any significant expansion of the use of hardwoods in that way.

However, we certainly haven't in any way minimized the long-run potential for the use of the very substantial amount of hardwood we have in Manitoba. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, just to follow up the depa rtment, the groups that I have just mentioned are continuing to pursue this matter, and I believe the Minister has indicated that although he has said that the market op portunities are not there at this present time for the chemithermal mechanical pulp process, but there are other alternatives that they are looking 2428

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 at and exploring with the Department of Economic Development. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(cX1)-pass; 7.(cX2)-pass; 7.(dX1) - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: A couple of items here, Mr. Chairman. First of all, how did the salvage work go on Porcupine Mountain following the serious fire there three years ago? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm sorry. I have to get some specifics on that. Mr. Chairman, I have the specifics now. This is apparently the third year of that salvage operation, or it was just completed.

The equivalent of 220,00 0 cords of timber were salvaged under commercial operations; 50 to 60 percent of that was lumber; 40 to 50 percent was pulpwood and fencing material. Fifteen timber operations employing 125 persons resulted from the salvage operation. The markets to which the products were directed were ManFor, or Manitoba Forestry Resources; Abitibi-Price at Pine Falls; Northwest Pulp and Paper in the United States; and Boise Cascade at Fort Francis. The equivalent of 10,000 cords of fuel wood and fencing materials from the salvage operations as well.

The harvesting will continue this summer, and a decision will be made with operators at a September meeting regarding next winter. MR. B. RANSOM: was interested in more of a qualitative assessment, I guess, on the part of the Minister, whether salvage work has gone at least as well as he expected it would. Perhaps he could tell me what's happening to the operators who have been in that area. Are there going to be some other areas where they will be able to go in the future, or will some of them simply be run out of a resource to work with? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that the harvesting of the salvage timber exceeded the expectations of the department. I guess it's reflected too in the statistics I read, where a very high percentage of it was either lumber or pulpwood. In respect to the second part of the question, it is anticipated there will be a continuance of further forest for these operators to harvest. MR. B. RANSOM: That's good to hear that, Mr. Chairman. How extensive are the reforestation operations then that are going on in the Porcupine Mountain now?

Is it necessary to undertake a lot of scarification and planting there, or is it going to be largely regeneration on its own? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we anticipate that approximately 50 percent of the burn area will reforest naturally to a satisfactory degree. It will mean that we have to consider reforestation for about 50 percent. That will involve the use of the expanded nursery facilities that we have been talking about. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, two or three years ago, I think there was an experiment going on to use some sort of new method of handling seedlings - some outside people.

I'm not sure of the gentleman's name, but it involved one of the Patersons from N.M. Paterson and Company and perhaps a Mr. Seedlinger? What was the result of that experiment - if I can call it that? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised by Mr. Laws that the experimentation was not as good as hoped - a 50 to 60 percent success rate, so that we don't see a need to continue that. We will be able to expand from the nurseries that we are developing. MR. B. RANSOM: Was there a report prepared on that, Mr. Chairman, and if so, could it be made available to the committee? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that there was no report, as such, by the department. MR. B. RANSOM: Has the branch had any correspondence with any other province, any other forestry agency, concerning an evaluation of how well that project went? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that we only had verbal confirmation and that was inconclusive. MR. B. RANSOM: Can the Minister just expand on that a bit? What does he mean, was inconclusive? HON. A. MACKLING: We understand that the developer or the proponent was endeavouring to get further contracts in other jurisdictions, notably Ontario. He had equipment problems.

When I indicate the results were inconclusive, I interpret what my department is telling me, that there was no enthusiastic confirmation from other jurisdictions that they were going to be going that route. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, it's my understanding that the proponent, as the Minister refers to them, was attempting to get contracts in other jurisdictions as well, and that the Minister's department, or the Forestry Branch, passed on a recommendation, an evaluation, an assessment, which may in fact have jeopardized the proponent getting a contract in another jurisdiction.

I'm wondering if there could be any truth to that allegation, especially in view of the fact that the branch has not done a detailed evaluation, to the point of being able to produce a report. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Laws confirms to me that he was not contacted by anyone for an evaluation, that is, contacted by someone in an outside jursidiction, as to an evaluation of this work, nor did he give any report to anyone along those lines. MR. B. RANSOM: Perhaps, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister would agree then to undertake to have some inquiries made within the branch and perhaps through the nurseries, as to whether or not there has been any correspondence. Because it strikes me that it would behoove the department to be very cautious in making assessments, or recommendations concerning this kind 2429

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 of a project, unless there is some kind of objective evaluation carried out that is available then for anyone else to examine, for the proponent, for instance, to examine and say, yes, the information seems to be valid or to chall enge it. Perhaps the Minister would agree to look into that. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I have no problem asking my department to look at it. I'm assured by Mr. Laws that they haven't been endeavouring to frustrate anyone. Their assessment has not been a particularly favourable one and that's where the matter stands. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to leave the impression that anyone was attempting to frustrate the efforts of this company that is trying to develop this method. All I'm saying is that sometimes they're fairly offhand evaluations. Unless they're based on some kind of objective analysis, it might have an impact, substant ially beyond what the person making the comment might expect to be the case. The government entered into a contract in perhaps 1979, I think, a new agreement, with Abitibi Pulp and Paper. How is that agreement working out to this point? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that it is moving well.

It's on plan in accordance with the target. MR. B. RANSOM: Have there been any significant problems between the company and the small operators in the area? HON. A. MACKLING: Not to the knowledge of Mr. Laws. MR. B. RANSOM: Has the Minister reviewed this agreement to see whether he thinks that any changes in it might be valuable or might be recommended, when the opportunity comes, to make any changes? HON. A. MACKLING: I have not personally. I know that I have relied upon my Deputy and others to review the agreement, and in due course, I assume that I will take the time to review the details of that agreement.

MR. B. RANSOM: I'm pleased to hear that it's working so well, Mr. Chairman, because this was categorized by the Leader of the New Democratic Party during the election and while in opposition, as being the first resource giveaway by the Lyon Government, and therefore, it is, of course, gratifying to learn that the agreement is working satisfactorily and that they are reasonably amicable relations between the company and the local operators, because that's the way the agreement anticipated that it would work.

I would have to conclude from the fact that the Minister hasn't seen fit to undertake an immediate review of it, or to change it, that he is indeed satisfied that the agreement is working satisfactorily. Mr. Chairman, there also, I believe, there was a new leasing system, if I can use that terminology - one soon forgets the proper terminology that's used within the department. But there was a new leasing system put in place about two years ago. How does that system seem to be working out at this point? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, while I'm getting Mr.

Laws and staff to give me an indication as to how the new leasing is working out, let me just briefly indicate to the honourable member that I have relied upon my staff to look at the Abitibi contract. I have been satisfied by my staff that it is a binding contract in law. As someone who has had some experience in courts and in government with contracts, I have a very firm belief that when government has entered into a binding contract, it is at the peril of the taxpayers of this province if we seek to make any changes which abort or significantly change a contract which has been entered into between parties.

Thus, I have not been anxious to try in any way to question the contract. I have not characterized it as a giveaway. If my coll eagues who were in opposition before did, I haven't evaluated the costs and the benefits. I know that there is a binding contract and I think, as Minister, I'm bound to work with that contract. Now in respect to the leases, I am advised that it is a timber allo cation system, quota system, and the system is performing well. It will come up for review in 1985 to assess the individual quotas . I might say, Mr.

Chairman, also that I had the opportunity to tour the Abitibi area, visited the mill and did discuss with Abitibi some of their methods in respect to cutting and their techniques. I visited some sites where they were involved in reforestation. I found the Abitibi people very fair and very interested in a healthy forest. MR. B. RANSOM: That's good news, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to hear that from the Minister, and I am pleased to hear that the Minister is adopting a more reasonable attitude than some of his colleagues took when they were in opposition, because I can recall threats from the New Democrats in opposition that it was a two-way road between Toronto and Winnipeg, and that Tantalum Mining, for instance, the government would simply take back the shares that had been sold to Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting in that case. That's the sort of thing, of course, that doesn't do much for confidence in the province.

I am pleased to see that the Minister is adopting a different attitude than was expressed earlier. Mr. Chairman, just to refresh my memory on the leases again, are those leases transferable? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. B. RANSOM: That is, that if someone sells his sawmill operation, for instance, then he can automatically guarantee that the right to harvest the timber is transferred? HON. A. MACKLING: Subject to the approval of our department, the Minister. Yes, there is transferability of leases. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, just a further question on the Abitibi agreement which the Minister alluded to, and he indicated too that he had in fact paid an on-site visit, was reasonably, favourably impressed with 2430

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 the program that's being carried out including their reforestation program which, of course, is a part of the agreements that my colleagues signed with Abitibi, can the Minister tell me, has the department a similar agreement, particularly with the area of reforestation, with our publicly-owned Manfor operation in The Pas? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we have ongoing discussions with Manfor about the development of reforestation programs. Certainly they have been most co-operative in all our concerns in respect to reforestation techniques.

I think that I have, while up there, seen some of the efforts, the scarification and things like that. There is no question though that, in order to carry out reforestation in the Manfor area, we need more seedlings. Thus it is that we have moved quickly in respect to Clearwater Nursery. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, my question remains. Do we have a similar long-term agreement with the major operator in the province, Manfor, something similar to the specific agreements that were concluded in the Abitibi agreement? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, there have been no agreements negotiated in the past, but we are in the process now of negotiating an agreement with Manfor. MR. H. ENNS: I'm pleased to hear that. The point that, of course, I am making particularly to my friend, the Honourable Member for lnkster, is that we have, out of the Minister's own evidence, clear testimony that international companies can behave appropri ately with good corporate citizenship, and indeed husband the resource as it ought to be husbanded, in this case doing a better job than our publicly-owned operation at Manfor.

I don't lay that on the head of this Minister, but I simply want to put that on the record particularly in view, as my colleague for Turtle Mountain has said, of the amount of noise that was made as late as October, November of 1981 about this specific agreement. Mr. Chairman, it would be our intention to facilitate passing of this

section of the Estimates. I only have one further question on the forest protection. Was the Minister at all involved or was the department involved or contacted by the authorities from Ottawa who made rather substantial news just a few days ago about a very significant expansion of Canadair air bomber fleets? I believe they talked about the purchase of some potentially 20 new aircraft to be used as kind of a central fleet available for forestry protection throughout Canada.

This was a suggestion that was talked about at the Minister of Resources Conferences and the federal Ministers alluded to this suggestion coming from the Resource Ministers. Were we in Manitoba contacted about that decision? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I assume the honourable member is referring to the proposal for more fire-lighting aerial equipment, the water bombers, CL- 215s. Yes, we have been contacted. We are looking at the proposal. It hasn't been confirmed yet as to whether or not we will be in a position to take advantage of that, but we are certainly looking at that and we're highly involved in it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions to ask in this area, but seeing as it's 4:30, I will ask my questions after . . . HON. A. MACKLING: You can ask me privately if you want. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4: 30, we are interrupting the proceedings of this committee for the Private Members' Hour. SUPPLY - EDUC ATION MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: The Committee will come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Education. The last time we met we were making general comments on Item 8. Expenditures Related to Capital Assets.

Is it the will of the Committee to continue with Item 8 or to revert to Item 5, where we left off before that? The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, unless the Member for Tuxedo has made another agreement with the Minister, I would suggest that we continue with Capital. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 8, line-by-line or just general comments? The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: We're in Item 8, are we not, at this point? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I had a question earlier about the Public Schools Finance Board and the major renovation policy and the Minister said she would explain that further under this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I do recall making a few comments on this policy and perhaps they weren't quite complete enough. I'll go over a few of them again and see if I'm providing sufficient information for the Member for Kirkfield Park. When I brought in the new policy for the three-year capital plan, it had three elements, or three components, to the policy.

The first one was related to the approval of the building of new schools; secondly, established a policy for the gathering of information about the condition of schools across the province, establishing a criterion on which to make decisions about approving schools and the major renovations would also be in this area - also I'll touch on that in a minute.

The third element of the policy was the miscellaneous capital which we turned over to school divisions on a formula basis, based on the age and the size of the school, where they get a block fund and they make decisions on where to put the money to maintain their schools. Renovations are handled actually much like the building of new schools. In other words, there isn't a 2431

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 separation of the process for making decisions; if it is a major renovation as opposed to very minor changes, it goes through the Public Schools Finance Board in exactly the same way with the school division submitting a Letter of Intent and the necessary information and the Public Schools Finance Board making their decision on that basis.

It's likely that the information we're gathering related to the whole policy that tells us about the condition and the shape of school divisions across the province, will have an effect on decisions both for the building of brand-new schools and the renovation of older schools since the conditions of the school will be one of the major factors that will determine the highest priority needs. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Will there be priorities given over the whole province, or will it be still by division in particul ar, or just how is the criteria to be based? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, the priorities will be established over the whole province. It is actually one of the major changes that, prior to this policy coming in, schools were approved on an individual basis simply almost a first come, first served - whoever puts the proposal in gets that proposal considered. There is a lot of consideration given to the needs of that particular school but absolutely no examination given to the question of how the needs for that school compared to the overall needs of other schools across the province.

What we are doing with this policy is that school divisions themselves are determining their priorities for the three-year period and they will be providing and helping my department gather the information that gives us the information we need about the condition of the schools across the province and we share that information with them, so it will be computerized and they will have access to that data which will help them do a better job of planning in the long term what their priorities are going to be for the three years, so that divisions will continue to do business as usual.

They will determine their needs, they will establish their priorities and they will submit their Letters of Intent to the province. The difference will be that when we receive them, we will be looking at them in relationship to all the other proposals that are coming in so that we receive proposals from all school divisions within a given period of time, so they're not hitting our desk all throughout the year and when you're approving one you compare it to what? - you don't know, because the other proposals aren't in.

Then we will be reviewing, based on the - I guess to put it very plainly - the schools that are in the worst condition, the poorest condition across the province or the least adequate or safe, you know, safety will be another element, will be the ones where the approval is given first, so that we are clearly making an attempt to put the money into the schools that are in the poorest, most inadequate condition in the province. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that's the type of information I was looking at, because I represent an area where they are, in an orderly fashion, consolidating and closing schools. So in some of these areas, they may have a school that may not quite fall into this category, but because they're consolidating they may need major renovations. I wonder if that circumstance has been taken into consideration, because you may well find that there's a school that may not be in an absolute need, but the need is there because of consolidation and because of closing of other schools.

I think divisions that are trying to save money in this manner certainly shouldn't be overlooked in this case, and I am wondering if that criteria will be included. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, absolutely, Mr. Chairman, because we expect that the school divisions not only - well, we hope and we're pleased when school divisions are proceeding in that manner. We recognize that some of the requests that come in are going to be based on a combination. They never have been necessarily just related to condition of the facility.

It has often been a combination of program and organization and philosophy; it's the combination of all of those that determines the kind of space that they want. So we definitely have built that into the system because school divisions will be making their decisions on that basis, and we will be accepting proposals and requests based on the orderly process of planning the use of their schools where they are wanting to make changes to accommodate restructuring or reorganization of students or of program, or some changes in philosophy that would affect the kinds of facilities that they have.

The only caveat I would put on that is that it is possible - like there will be a criteria and there are very obvious things like health and safety standards where we would make a commitment that if there is a serious fire or safety or some other problem like that which was causing a threat to the health or the safety of the students, that would obviously have a priority.

I suppose if money was limited, there might be a possibility where, in terms of provincial priorities, you would be meeting top priority of health and safety first and then going into other ones that relate to some of those other areas, but they are concluded in the policy. We encourage them, and we accept decisions that boards make on both the use and the expansion of facilities based on all those criteria. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr.

Chairman, I recognize the Minister's concerns for safety and that some of the schools certainly in the divisions probably will be run down, but at the same time I think those schools are always going to be at the top of the list, and I think probably over the province there are a great many schools that fall into that category. So I think that the Public Schools Finance Board is going to have to be very careful that they don't overlook divisions who have been, over the years, maintaining their schools and trying to keep them up because they have followed a careful policy and have really been forward looking.

I count St. James-Assiniboia very highly in that category that they are not overlooked, because I know there are going to be many many divisions that are going to have schools that are very much in need of repair. With this policy, a division like St. James could very well be overlooked, and I hope that will be taken into consideration. 2432

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 HON. M. HEMPHILL: I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that I think the Member for Kirkfield Park is making a very good point. I think it is a very good one and that we do not intend to overlook school divisions like St. James where the renovations and the maintenance have been maintained over the years. There might be some instances - we have some cases where students don't have facilities at all, don't have facilities that are now considered to be basic.

In fact, where we have programs, that we require them to provide programs, and the gym is a very good example; where we now have a mandatory requirement for this to be part of the program, and we have schools with kids of 600 where they don't have any access to any gymnasium at all. There will be some clear things, I think, where we will have to meet needs where there is no facility at all in keeping with what are basic accepted facilities across the province.

But I don't think we would ever want to go to the point that we would be ruling out or not giving serious consideration to any school division, the level that they're at, their needs as they determine them, and what they communicate to us. So every proposal that comes forward will still be looked at individually in that light in recognition that they are communicating and demonstrating their highest priority needs for their division. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to ask the Minister a little bit about the Public Schools Finance Board as part of this item. Is that acceptable? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. FILMON: Okay, thank you. HON. M. HEMPHILL: If you can give me a moment, but you'll carry on, and I might need a moment to find my paper on that. MR. G. FILMON: Okay.

What I would like to have from the Minister is a listing of who the previous members of the Public Schools Finance Board were prior to the changes that were made during this past year and who the present members are and, as well, what their vocational backgrounds are to serve as members on this board. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I don't have with me the names of the former members, although we could get that, I think, and make it available to the member for this evening's session.

I have brought with me lists of all the existing members of all of the boards and commissions that we have, so I will give him that. These terms expire December 31, 1984. The Chairman is Tony Frechette; the Vice-Chairman is Russ Gourluck; Harry Finnegan is a member; Shirley Loewen is a member; and Frank Dann. The remuneration of the chairman is on a half-time basis, and the vice­ chairman is fixed at 9,660 per annum. The members are fixed at 7,440, I think. This portion of it is the same; we haven't made any changes in the remuneration to boards. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I think I could probably reconstruct or assist, at least, in reconstructing the previous members of the board that were replaced. I believe that one was a school trustee from an urban school division, Gabe Gerrard. One was a school trustee from a rural school division, possibly in the Morris­ Macdonald, or somewhere in southern Manitoba. I know I've met him and I'm trying to think of the gentleman in question. One was the Mayor of Brandon, Mr. Burgess. And there was another elected municipal official with the chairman having been a civil servant.

It seems to me that throughout my recollection and my knowledge of the Public School's Finance Board that was always the structure, that there were two elected municipal officials, could be elected or appointed municipal officials, two school trustees, generally it was attempted to be an urban and a rural school trustee with a senior civil servant as Chairman. It seems to me that the Minister has made a very, very dramatic change by appointing to the board two, either school teachers, or in one case, Mr. Dann I think may be a Vice- Principal, or a Principal but let's say school teachers, administrators.

One school trustee, and one urban planner I believe, was what was said as I recall from the news release. This brings an entirely different mix and background to the Public Schools Finance Board. I know what the rationale was behind having two municipal officials, and two school trustees, and a senior civil servant as the Chairman.

And I wonder what the rationale is behind having two school teachers or administrators, one school trustee, and an urban planner making decisions that are largely financial in nature, that impact for the long term on the mill rate of various school divisions, and on the public education system itself? And I wonder why the Minister chose this to, sort of, throw out the former criteria and select a new set of criteria for the people that she's selected to the Public Schools Finance Board? HON. M. HEM PHILL: Mr.

Chairman, while what the Member for Tuxedo says is correct about the kinds of representation that were on the Public Schools Finance Board before, that is not predetermined. I mean there isn't anything that says that you must have that proportion or those kinds of people. I know he wasn't suggesting that, I'm just reiterating that . It is open so that the previous kinds of members that were selected were those that the former government chose to appoint to that board during those times.

And I think that's important to reflect on, that we are going through a lot of change and I'm not sure that just because we had boards that had certain kinds of representation or numbers of people that automatically follows that that's the same kind of experience, or expertise that you continue to want. Times change and if we're going to be concentrating on different things, you know, in a few years to come and we recognize that. I mean the previous Public Schools Finance Board was operating in boom times, boom growth, large numbers of students, heavy development.

Their major job, their major job actually was keeping pace, just keeping their heads above water in building schools and meeting the demands of the school divisions for the existing growth. Now that was the job previously. 2433

Thursday, 5 May, 1983 That isn't the job any longer and I think that's reflected by the major changes we've made in the policies by the Public Schools Finance Board related to the way we will be making decisions about building of schools, renovations of schools, and miscellaneous capital. And there are a couple of things that are important here. While there wasn't any comment made about the qualifications of the Chairman, I think that I would like to make a few comments on his qualifications and his selection. He was a former Secretary-Treasurer of the St.

Boniface School Division and at the time had major responsibilty for the building of schools in that division at a time when there was a great deal of development going on. He had also had experience I think in working in a school division where they had a variety of programs that they had to accommodate in a number of schools and was able to work out that kind of accommodation, the combination of enrolment needs, and very varied program needs in a school division.

I think that we're moving more and more into finding that more and more of our school divisions are faced with this issue, not just how much space do they need for a number of bodies, but how are they going to accommodate the variety of programs they are instituting with the numbers of students and the facilities they have. His knowledge as a Secretary-Treasurer, and his experience in that area I think was exceptional.

I also would like to take this moment to say that his ability to help us and develop the new policies that we've implemented, and do it in conjunction, and consultation with the school divisions and the organizations has given us, what I consider to be exceptionally good policies that everybody supports, and is working on helping us implement. There might be some question, I can see some question being raised about an urban planner in terms of what would be traditional kinds of appointments. I admit, and I agree that might be an unusual appointment and a non-traditional appointment.

However, that was done with a very great deal of thought and for a very specific purpose. That is that he has background, I believe, in a couple of areas. One is as an urban planner particularly as it relates to neighborhood development . The redevelopment of neighborhoods, sort of renovation and rejuvenation, revitalization of neighborhoods. He is well experienced and credible in this area. I think everybody recognizes that one of the major shifts and approach and attention and concern has got to be the inner city.

We also recognize that it is the area where large numbers of older schools, not all the older schools in the province but a large number, a lot of older schools in the province, that have not been receiving renovation or upgranding over the years as the ones in St. James that we've just heard about. We are really going to have to know what we're doing in this area where we are looking at the continuance or the life of schools, and the quality of schools as being one of the major elements determining the quality of life, and the viability , and the continuance of neighborhoods in the inner city.

So I think that I really do feel that was an experience and a perception and knowledge base that is going to be very important for the Public Schools Finance Board to have in the next three or four years, or the life of the three-year policy. I think that another area that we all recognize is increasingly important, or where we're going to have to give a lot of attention to, is the vocational. Like the questions of access to vocation