Manitoba Hansard — 21 June 2001 (Sitting 51B, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-51b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 51B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, June 21, 2001 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASIITON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETI, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darr en REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur- Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon Wesr Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

313 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 21, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Steve Breland, Carol Thompson, Ken Biberdorf and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Marylou Hockley, Kirk Hay, Maureen Watchorn and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of William Bilton, Brent Pooles, Grant Stefanson and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. PTH 9 Upgrade Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Herb Jones, Margaret Krystia, Mavis Wood and others, praying that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton) consider upgrading Provincial Trunk Highway No. 9 and the Selkirk Corridor thoroughfares immediately. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] Please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approximately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] Clerk please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and

3140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1.4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Tuxedo (Mrs. Stefanson), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] Clerk, please read. * (13:35) Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approximately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS National Aboriginal Day Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. As Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, I am very pleased to recognize the many contributions Aboriginal people have made to this province and to this country.

As we celebrate today and reflect on the rich culture and strength of Aboriginal people, we must remember that many Aboriginal people continue to face severe social and economic challenges. It is my desire and the desire of this Government to bring about a new era of trust and partnership with Aboriginal people throughout this province. We have been able to make some significant progress in many areas over the past 20 months, but there is much more that needs to be done. We cannot simply sit still or say it is not our jurisdiction.

Our efforts to address the AJI report continue with major progress being made on justice issues and child welfare jurisdiction. Last month I was very pleased to co-host a federal provincial-territorial meeting of Aboriginal ministers in Winnipeg. At that meeting, all ministers formally endorsed a report strength ening Aboriginal participation in the economy. A report for an action plan to address all provinces and territories along with the federal government is now being worked on.

Across Canada, only three of fifty Aboriginal languages, Cree, Inuktitut and Ojib way, are spoken enough to be considered safe from extinction. About I 0 percent of Manitoba's workforce are of Aboriginal descent. In 10 years time, this will be approaching 20 percent. This means that 40 000 or more new Aboriginal members will be in the workforce by 2011. The Aboriginal unemployment rate in Winnipeg is more than three times the non-Aboriginal average. The unemployment rate in northern Aboriginal communities is even higher. We must turn this around, and this Government is com mitted to turning it around.

As we look at the reality of climate change and the effect upon winter roads, it is clear that there have to be changes. To build an economy in First Nation and Metis communities will require some basic infrastructure such as all-weather roads that do not yet exist in more than 25 communities throughout northern Manitoba. Our Government has made progress in improving northern roads and airports and is

June 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3141 in discussions with the federal government on proceeding with an all-weather road on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. As a province, we are working to improve health care services in the North and to increase post-secondary opportunities to vital areas for improving the quality of life in Aboriginal communities. As well, our Government is reviewing what can be done to improve the housing stock in northern Manitoba. * (13:40) Progress on dealing with outstanding treaty land entitlement continues.

Last December, I stated the position of the Province is that the Northern Flood Agreement is a modern-day treaty, consistent with the recommendation of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. Discussions and some progress are occurring in Cross Lake. Last month, aerial surveys helped move forward the transfer of land. It is our hope that progress on the proposed titanium mine will occur in the near future. Work with trappers is ongoing, as are improvements to the roads at Cross Lake and other northern communities. Last year, we announced the creation of TEAM, developing a culture of commerce.

The program is now in eight communities: South Indian Lake, Pikwitonei, Wabowden, Sherridon, Norway House, Moose Lake, Churchill and Easterville. TEAM businesses range from bookkeeping services to craft co-ops, gas bars, insurance outlets, furniture making, convenience stores, small appliance repairs, contractors and other activities involving more than 50 individuals. They hope to be in more than 15 Aboriginal communities by August of this year.

Over the last year, we have announced commitments by Manitoba Hydro and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority to increase the percentage of Aboriginal people in their workforce, and we have been strong supporters of the federal CHAMPIONS program and the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce Aboriginal Employment Initiative, both of which are targeted to increasing the number of Aboriginal employees in the private sector. We firmly believe that it is time for all Manitobans to count Aboriginal workers in and to do so in numbers that are truly representative of growing Aboriginal populations.

We expect that in 2011, when one in four people in Winnipeg are of Aboriginal origin, one in five employed workers in Winnipeg will be also of Aboriginal origin. This is the goal that Manitoba Aboriginal and Northern Affairs will do everything in its power to achieve, and is one of the main reasons we are working with the major Aboriginal organizations in addressing urban Aboriginal issues. Aboriginal people will play a greater role in the economy of this province in the future. Hiring Aboriginal workers is just plain good business. Next month, the Manitoba Indigenous Games will take place in Cross Lake.

In 2002, both the North American Indigenous Games and the National Aboriginal Achievement Awards will be held in Manitoba. Nelson House First Nation and Split Lake First Nation are both in negotiations with Manitoba Hydro over future hydro development in their territories. The self-government memor andum of understanding with the Sioux Valley First Nation, signed this spring, is another example of the progress being made within communities. As we look towards the new economy of the next few years, we know that the past attitudes must change. Aboriginal people will no longer tolerate second-class treatment.

National Abori ginal Day is both a day to remember and a day to look ahead but more importantly a day to recognize the survival of Aboriginal people as we begin the new century. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): I thank my honourable friend for the ministerial statement he shared with the House today. I would like to indicate from this side of the House I know his role and his challenges that lay ahead of him are great. We would like to offer our support where we can in those areas to be able to accomplish some of the goals he has indicated in his statement.

3142 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 Mr. Speaker, it also gives me great pleasure as well to put a few words on the record about National Aboriginal Day. In December 1995, Elijah Harper hosted a sacred assembly in Hull, Quebec, at which a national day to recognize Aboriginal peoples and their contribution to Canada was discussed. Following consultations, Aboriginal groups and the federal government selected June 21, which coincides with the summer solstice.

The summer solstice holds special significance for many Aboriginal groups, who equate this day with growth, both in terms of growth of the land and spiritual growth. In 1996, former Governor General of Canada Romeo LeBlanc proclaimed June 21 as National Aboriginal Day. On the importance of this day, LeBlanc stated: It is always important to remember how a nation evolved. It is very important for Canadians to understand their history, the history of all who live in Canada.

National Aboriginal Day is a chance for all Canadians to celebrate the rich contributions Aboriginal peoples have made to Canada, this great country. It is an opportunity to share in Aboriginal peoples' plans and dreams for the future. * (13:45) I know that a number of events are taking place around Manitoba today to mark this occasion. These include a Sunrise Ceremony at The Forks in Winnipeg today; traditional dancing, singing, and arts and crafts displays in Thompson; storytellers and bannock making at Wasagaming; and a powwow in Dauphin.

These events provide a good opportunity for all Manitobans to become better acquainted with our province's rich First Nations, Inuit and Metis culture and heritage. These activities also reflect an immense pride and a willingness to share the Aboriginal experience with Canadians. I am also delighted to hear today, Mr. Speaker, that the minister has issued a press release that two $1, 000 bursaries have been awarded from the Helen Betty Osborne Memorial Foundation to Andrea Mcivor and Trisha Goulet.

These are the first two recipients, and I would like to congratulate them on being chosen to receive $1 ,000 bursaries each. I understand that Trisha is about to begin her third year of training as a dental hygienist at the University of Manitoba. Andrea Mcivor is from Cross Lake and is completing her educational assistance diploma this summer at the University of Winnipeg. She wants to begin her Northern Teacher Education Program through Brandon University in Cross Lake this fall. I congratulate both of them on being chosen as recipients of this, what will be the first of many, many bursaries, I hope.

As well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to urge all Manitobans who are interested and committed to eliminating the barriers of racism and sexism in society, that they can do so by supporting the Helen Betty Osborne Memorial Foundation. Cheques can be made payable to that foundation through the Department of Justice. I urge all Manitobans to participate in supporting that cause. I hope that all Canadians will JOin our Aboriginal communities in celebrating National Aboriginal Day. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to speak on the members' statements. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, National Aboriginal Day is a day to recognize the achievements of people in the Aboriginal community, whether that be in sports, the OCN hockey team last year, other areas of individual achievement. It is a time to recognize and to celebrate the advances that are being made, both in Winnipeg with Thunderbird House and the Aboriginal Centre and in a number of the communities.

Chief Clarence Easter talked to me recently about the progress in his community in terms of employment, and it is one example of where there is significant progress being made. On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, I believe it is also important that we recognize today that there are some critical and urgent needs right now in Manitoba. I would mention, as an example, the fact that we have in the gallery Chief Shirley Castel, councillors and other

June 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3143 members of the Mathias Colomb First Nation. They are here because their community is in major trouble at the moment due to a fuel spill contamination. That contamination has meant that their administrative centre has been declared unusable, and they have nowhere, because there is no alternate site, to operate the administrative services for social services, housing, education, justice, concerns about law and order, economic development. The origin of this oil spill was a Manitoba Hydro diesel generator.

So it is a provincial liability and responsibility to get involved. There is an urgent and an acute need which must be addressed, and we need to work together with the federal government and people in the community. There are 2000 Manitobans in the Mathias Colomb community. Their needs must be addressed. Mr. Speaker, it is time that they were addressed. It is time that this Government acted and not just spoke. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Jean Friesen (Minister of Inter governmental Affairs): I would like leave to table the Annual Report of the Municipal Board for the Year 2000. * (13:50) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Ste. Rose School, 23 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Judy Wolfe. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings). Also in the public gallery we have Chief Shirley Castel and councillors Ralph Caribou, Moses Castel, Brian Bighetty, Frank Dumas of the Mathias Colomb First Nation. They are the guests of the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard).

I would like to draw all members' attention to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today my brother Frank Tootoo, with his wife Becky and children Ami and Trent James from Baker Lake, Nunavut; my nephew Jordan Tootoo from Brandon, or I should say Brandon Wheat Kings; my nephew Aaron Pilakapsi from Rankin Inlet, Nunavut; my niece Charlotte Hickes from Rankin Inlet, Nunavut; and my sister Dorothy Tootoo from Vancouver, British Columbia. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Services Insurance Act Amendments-Withdrawal Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we have learned today that the College of Physicians and Surgeons are supportive of overnight stays in non-hospital facilities. In light of this new information that comes to us from health care professionals, those people that understand patients' safety, I wonder if the Minister of Health, instead of going forward with some sort of hidden agenda, if he will not do the right thing for all Manitobans and pull his legislation that bans overnight stays in non-hospitals. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): It is ironic that a party that closed 1400 hospital beds is now demanding that we open up hospital beds in private hospitals. I find it passing strange for the members opposite through the '90s closed 1400 beds, closed Misericordia Hospital, tried to close emergency rooms across the city, and now they want us to open beds in private hospitals. I think it speaks for itself, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Murray: I would like to table a letter of June 15, a letter from the College of Physicians and Surgeons to The Maples Surgical Centre.

In that letter that goes on to support overnight stays in non-hospitals, they recognize and support it but they also say regrettably that it is very much a moot point because the introduction of the Government's new legislations will prohibit it.

3144 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 Rather than putting a hidden agenda in front of Manitobans and attacking the safety of patients, will the minister put the safety of patients and all concerns of Manitobans first before his ideology and withdraw his bill to ban overnight stays in non-hospitals? Mr. Chomiak: Let me read from the letter the member has just tabled with respect to this.

The clinics privileges panel was of the opinion that if the necessary nursing and other support staff and resources are in place and there is an appropriate physician on call, overnight stays could be allowed in such facilities in principle. * (13:55) Could be allowed. Well, very good. That is true, Mr. Speaker; it could be allowed if the resources are in place, but we are following the policy of past governments and not having private hospitals with overnight stays, which was the policy that that government followed, that we are following.

For a member of a party that closed 1400 acute care beds in hospitals and the largest hospital in the history of the province of Manitoba in the guise of Misericordia Hospital now wanting us to open a private hospital, I think the agenda is very, very evident. Mr. Murray: The Minister of Health has stated publicly that he has no plan, no grand scheme for solving the health care woes in Manitoba.

He is fondly referred to as "Doctor Dolittle." I would say that as we go through this issue that has to do with the proper thing for Manitobans, providing the kind of health care that Manitobans deserve, rather than doing the ideological thing, rather than operating on some kind of hidden agenda, why will he not give the kind of health care that Manitobans deserve and want and withdraw a bill that has either a hidden agenda or is ideologically driven but is wrong for patients' safety in Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, well, as usual, the Leader of the Opposition is quite factually wrong.

We have reversed the Tory policy of getting rid of doctors by expanding the number of doctors for the first time in a decade. We have reversed the Tory policy of cancelling nurses' programs, by reintroducing nursing programs. We have doubled the number of nurses in training than when members were in office. We have reversed the Tory policy of cancelling the medical technology program. It was cancelled. We have reintroduced it to train medical technologists. If members opposite do not get a glimmer of what the policy is, Mr. Speaker, I will repeat it.

We reversed years of cuts, and we are putting in place a practical human resource plan. Our legislation follows the practice of not permitting overnight stays as a normal course. It does not affect patient care because services can be available, as long as it is not a normal course. If members opposite were so concerned about beds, why did they close 1400 during the last 10 years? Private Health Care Clinics Overnight Stays Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, we have just learned today that the College of Physicians and Surgeons is supportive of overnight stays in surgical centres.

We are talking about surgical clinics, not private hospitals. But Bill 25 will not allow patients to be cared for in a clinic past eleven o'clock, even though the Canada Health Act allows that to happen. Will the Minister of Health, without his usual hysterics, if he would not mind, listen to these doctors, these health care experts, and support their professional judgment and allow patients overnight stays in clinics? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as is usual, members opposite take a statement and try to manipulate it.

The statement says: The clinical privileges committee, et cetera, says that overnight stays could be allowed in such facilities, in principle. They offer an opinion. Members opposite had a law about private hospitals that they supported. All we are doing is we do not want the expansion of private hospitals, overnight stays in this jurisdiction. If

June 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3145 members opposite were concerned about patient safety, they would not have closed 1400 acute care beds during their 10 years in office. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this Minister of Health why he has not fully committed to improving access to care for patients in Manitoba, why he is allowing his narrow view to prevent patients from getting faster treatment but also compromising patient safety. Why is he letting his ideology stop this from happening? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, we have done more to provide additional services to the people of Manitoba in health care in the past 20 months than any time over the past decade of cuts that occurred in this province. * (14:00) In addition, one of the reasons we are taking the Pan Am Clinic from a private and moving it into a public sector is to be able to do more services in the public sector and not be faced with a situation that members opposite are obviously supportive of, a two-tier system with a paying system, where people who have more money can get to the top of the waiting list and people who do not have resources go to the bottom.

Our system now depends on need. It has always been the principle of the Canada Health Act. We are trying to maintain that, and we are going to be doing more services in this jurisdiction. We are doing more services than at any other time in history, and with our initiative with the Pan Am Clinic we will be able to do more in addition. Mrs. Driedger: Why does this Minister of Health allow his ideology to blind him so much that patients are being forced to wait and wait, longer and longer on waiting lists- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Patients are being forced to wait longer and longer on waiting lists, some of them with cancer, a lot of them in pain. He is waiting when solutions are right in front of him, and he shamefully chooses to ignore them. This is the question. Yet the minister will stand up and talk about user fees and paying money to get to the top. That does not even exist in these clinics, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, a couple of things: Firstly, the Canadian Orthopedic Association did a survey across Canada and found Manitoba-! notice members opposite did not suggest that in any of their questions-had the third-lowest waiting list in the country. It is interesting, when members opposite were faced with the situation with private clinics coming in and charging facility fees, what did members opposite do? They passed legislation restricting those private facilities, making them become surgical centres and having to have contracts with the government.

They did the same policy that we are following, except now that they are in Opposition they are taking a different stand. Manitobans know that we are being pragmatic, we are doing more services, we are looking at the public-private mix by taking Pan Am in. In addition we are continuing the contractual services with the private clinic. So it is a variety of services to increase capacity. Private Health Care Clinics Overnight Stays Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Obviously, the letter from the College of Physicians and Surgeons today says that under the Canada Health Act overnight stays can be allowed in clinics throughout the province of Manitoba and right across Canada. Why is the Minister of Health bringing in a law that would deny access to those services for Manitobans who are sitting on long waiting lists waiting for treatment? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, since the beginning of this session, the only solution offered by members opposite is why do you not give services to their Maples Clinic; no mention about any other issue except give the services to a private clinic, which clearly speaks to what members are talking about.

3146 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 What the member says in her statement is not stated in this Jetter. It is an opinion offered by the College of Physicians and Surgeons. It says, and I will quote again: could be allowed in such facilities in principle. It said that, as an opinion, it could be allowed. It has not been allowed in the past in Manitoba. When members opposite were in government both the Pan Am and Western had capacity for overnight, and, as I understand it, never utilized it, because they knew the government in policy did not want to do it.

We have hospital capacity where acute care centres will do hospital procedures and the surgical centres will do day surgery, which is what is required to be done in day surgery centres. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, why is this NDP government going against doctors who want to treat their patients here in the province of Manitoba and going against patients who need that treatment, who are sitting on long waiting lists? Why are they denying access that should be available under the Canada Health Act for Manitobans? Mr. Chomiak: First off, Mr.

Speaker, we are doing more procedures than at any other time in the history of the province. Second, the Canadian Orthopedic Association found, for hip and knee replacements and for knee surgery, we are the third best in the country. Thirdly, one of the reasons for the Pan Am conversion is because doctors want to have surgical centres, and they want to be able to do surgeries at surgical centres and we intend to have that, because that is an expanding area of surgery.

What we want to do is put acute care and more acute surgeries in hospitals where it is appropriate for overnight stays, et cetera, and day surgeries in day surgery centres where it is more appropriate. That has been recommended by CIHI, the national institute that says you should increase your capacity to do day surgery and outpatient surgery. That is what we are doing. It is the cutting edge, Mr. Speaker, no pun intended, of the health care field. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Why is this NDP government, this Minister of Health, saying to Manitobans: Go to Grafton, go to Grand Forks, pay for your care down there, because we are not going to allow you to have it here in Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: This is not the era, as the member might remember when she was a member of Cabinet, when her Minister of Health would not allow Seven Oaks Hospital to operate its CAT scan, would not allow Concordia Hospital to operate its CAT scan, would not allow Misericordia Hospital to operate a CAT scan, and then, Mr. Speaker, they promptly closed Misericordia Hospital.

We have increased capacity, we will increase capacity, we are doing more surgeries. The only- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MRis increased by 40 percent, CAT scans by 9 percent, ultrasounds by 16 percent. We are doing more, and there are going to be announce ments in the next few weeks to come in terms of increased capacity and ability in this system. We are continuing to do our efforts. They had 10 years, and they did not do anything. We have done more in 20 months than they did in 1 0 years. Arena/Entertainment Complex Public Consultations Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): In spite of howls of protest from those in our community who want to have public consultations regarding the location and the financing of the proposed new arena, our Premier (Mr. Doer) continues to drive negotiations secretly behind closed doors. He has negotiated a deal that is going to end up with the public sector paying 70 percent to 80 percent of the costs of a new arena, and, at the end of that he is going to tum the keys over to the private sector to own and operate the building. This is the same Premier, Mr.

Speaker, who in 1996 called for a referendum before spending any money on a new arena. I would ask the Deputy Premier if she will now do the right thing and insist that her Premier stop driving

June 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3147 these negotiations behind closed doors until a full public disclosure has been of the business plan so that we can have a full public discussion, not only of the financing but of alternative sites for this project. Hon.

Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): I recognize that the question comes from a member who was deeply involved, as was his leader, in a previous discussion about an arena rather than an entertainment centre, something which was to be dedicated to one particular sport, something which was done entirely behind closed doors, something which had a variety of public funds in front of it. One day it was $90 million when they were applying to infra structure. When they came to an election, it was $10 million. Then we heard, I think, it was $37 million after the election. All done behind closed doors.

Perhaps the member would like to put his position on the record as to what in fact the real number was in that original Jets deal. I would be delighted to hear it. * (14:10) Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Again, we understand why the Opposition may feel provoked. They are saying again, do not do as we have done. It just points out that they have a double standard. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. According to Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to ques tions should deal with the matter raised. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable ministers. VLT Revenues Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Deputy Premier if she is aware that in spite ofthe assurance ofthe Premier (Mr.

Doer) that the VL T revenue dedicated to the financing and debt of this new structure would be capped at $1.5 million a year for 25 years, in fact the term sheet indicates that the VL T revenue will be a minimum of $1.5 million a year for 25 years and may rise as high as $3 million per year for 25 years. Hon. Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): I recognize that the honourable member is relatively new to this House. I would remind him that he does have an obligation to bring correct information to the House. In fact, he has a duty to do that.

I think if the member rereads the term sheet, the publicly available term sheet both from City Council and through having been tabled in this House, and if he were to read that and if he were not to make the same mistakes that his Leader (Mr. Murray) and the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) have made in interpreting the letter of the College of Physicians and Surgeons, a complete misinterpretation of what they said, I think the same member has done exactly the same with this. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. If this minister would like we could repeat the question if she did not hear it, but she is dancing. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, the minister was simply pointing out that the information in the question, as so many questions before are similar, there was incorrect information. It is important that the context of the question be available to Manitobans, and we pointed out that the information was inaccurate once again. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

3148 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 Public Audit Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, this minister is putting incorrect infonnation on the record, and she should be ashamed of that. I would ask this minister: If she truly believes that her numbers are right, will she and the Premier (Mr. Doer) call on the public Auditor to do an independent, unbiased review of the tenn sheet and the final proposal and the business plan for the True North project so that the Auditor can give an unbiased opinion on what the true percentage of public sector funds is in this project? Bon.

Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): The True North entertainment complex tenn sheet is publicly available, both through this House, it is a tabled document, it is publicly available through City Council where it was also tabled. I would like to refer the honourable member, who I think does need to reread this, to page 8,

section B, subsection 2 which talks about a revenue allocation fonnula. A revenue allocation fonnula, not the revenue allocation. It deals with the allocation fonnula will be detennined, and if I may quote, to provide 75 percent of the first $2 million in annual gross revenues to the True North. In the event annual gross revenues exceed $2 million, the revenue allocation fonnula may be adjusted downward to provide 20 percent of gross revenues in excess of $2 million, i.e., the one that is applicable to others.

In the event that a minimum of $1.5 million is not returned to True North, i.e., that they do not reach that level, the revenue allocation fonnula may be adjusted upwards. What the member unfortunately has misconstrued is the difference between a revenue allocation and a revenue allocation fonnula. I ask him to reread that as the public in general has done so that he understands that. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte, on a new question. VLT Revenues Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I appreciate the fact that the minister has read into the record the exact tenns of this agreement, but I would remind her that it was her in reading that that just clarified that $1.5 million is in fact a minimum that is going to be received in VL T revenue. In fact, if the total revenue is over $2 million, there will be at least 20 percent of that revenue given to the project to finance the debt.

So would the minister look at it again and confinn to the people of Manitoba that the $1.5 million of revenue that is going to this project is not a maximum, as was stated a number of times by the Premier (Mr. Doer), but is in fact a minimum? Bon. Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that I am not responsible for the early impressions that the Member for Fort Whyte had of what this paper said. What I do have is what the paper said. I have repeated it to him. I have read it to him again. It is a public document available through the city and avail able through this House. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the minister then if she will confinn to the people of Manitoba that $1.5 million will be the maximum amount that goes to the True North project from the 50 VL Ts. Is 1.5 the maximum, as the Premier stated on numerous occasions? Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Friesen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It does give you a sense of why we went from $37 million to $10 million to $90 million in the allocations for the proposals that the member had in a previous Jets agreement. An Honourable Member: What is it? Ms.

Friesen: The agreement is as it says here. The caps are on the fonnulas, over $1.5 million as it says here, as was publicly indicated, is that it then goes to 80-20, as all other VL Ts do, except, of course, we might say, for the ones that went to the Jockey Club, which were I believe

June 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3149 negotiated by the previous government, where there is indeed no limitations on revenue, nor limitations on- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Public Audit Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, well, the minister should realize that when she talks about the 20 percent the wording is very clear: may be adjusted downwards, "may" not "will be." I would ask the Deputy Premier if she would do the honourable thing, call in the Provincial Auditor to settle this debate and ask the Provincial Auditor to tell the truth to the people of Manitoba about what percentage of the new arena project is being financed with public dollars, not only in the short term but in the long term. Just call in the Auditor. Hon. Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I stand by the fact that this is a public document which has been publicly available. It is unfortunate that the members of the Opposition have not been able to understand it clearly. "May" also means "can." Can and may be moot to the 90%, 10% formula if that $1 million is not reached. It is quite clear in the document. I do not know if the Member for Fort Whyte is the only member of the Opposition who has not understood that, but it is certainly very clear in the public document that this Government has made available and the City of Winnipeg. Mathias Colomb First Nation Fuel Spill Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, today on Aboriginal Day, while we should celebrate the achievements of Aboriginal people, we also need to be concerned about the critical needs in Aboriginal communities. The Mathias Colomb First Nation is dealing with a major fuel spill contamination. Their adminis trative centre has declared contamination, and they have no alternative office space to admin ister social services, justice, economic develop ment, housing, education and other important needs in their community.

Since the fuel spill was from a generator operated by Manift;>tya I1ydro, a provincial Crown corporation, 'Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs what his plans are to address this situation as soon as possible. * (14:20) Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, we have worked with the community on several occasions to address some of the dire needs of communities, not only Pukatawagan but elsewhere in the province of Manitoba. On June 1, as a matter of fact, in 1994, the former Leader of the Opposition and now the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and the now Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) and a former Member for Flin Flon, Jerry Storie, and I went to the community of Pukatawagan. At that time, we met with the then-chief Ralph Caribou and members of his council. They told us about a severe problem at that time, which was sewer and water. The day after we got back from Pukatawagan, we raised it in Question Period and asked the chief medical officer of Manitoba to go to the community and in fact were able to convince the federal government to build a new sewer and water system for $11 million. Mr.

Speaker, if I could just bring the member up to date on the current situation as I understand it, there were two diesel generating station sites at Pukatawagan. The earliest Pukatawagan No. 2 site was primarily operated by the Indian Affairs of the federal government, with Manitoba Hydro operating it for a short period of time. Based on the short time of Manitoba's involvement with this site, Manitoba Hydro made an agreement with INAC, whereby Manitoba Hydro paid INAC $120,000. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the contamination continues.

Because it has not been fully addressed, it continues to raise a problem. I ask the minister to address this issue. Is he going to work with the federal government and find a solution on an urgent basis, or is he just going to give us small talk?

3150 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 Mr. Robinson: Mr. Speaker, if I could carry on, Manitoba Hydro made an agreement with INAC whereby Manitoba Hydro paid Indian Affairs $120,000, and Indian Affairs assumed full responsibility for this site. Site No. 2 contamination may be a component of the current contamination con cerns of the community. There are believed to be several sources of contamination. Now the later diesel-generating site No. I has been remedied by Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Speaker, with INAC paying 72 percent of the share, and it is now believed to be a concern.

With respect to the question by the honourable member, I am indeed grateful that he has all of a sudden taken a sudden interest in these Aboriginal issues that we deal with each and every day. Certainly I will commit our Government to working with the community. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Health: I ask the Minister of Health what action he is taking to address the signifi cant health concerns which have arisen as a result of the contamination problem in the Mathias Colomb First Nation. Mr. Robinson : As I said earlier, Mr.

Speaker, we have always worked with communities that want to work with us. In 1996, with Pukatawagan, with the then-chief Ralph Caribou, we worked with him on getting a wood allocation, as another example, for housing in the community in support of their efforts to get more housing in their community. The situation in many Aboriginal communities, I need not tell you, is dire. There are many illnesses. There is diabetes, tuber culosis, suicides that I do not care to talk about. I have just committed our Government that we will work with this community.

Hopefully, this member will also convince his federal counter parts that they will work with us in good faith as well. Child and Family Services Aboriginal and Metis Agencies Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, in keeping with the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Manitoba government has signed historic agreements with First Nations and Metis organizations with regard to child welfare. Can the Minister of Family Services and Housing update the House on progress being made on these important initiatives? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, I will explain to the House that the beautiful jacket that I am wearing is a gift of the Metis people of Manitoba on the signing of the historic accord that we signed, in February of the year 2000, in regard to the transfer that the member asked about. I am very pleased to tell the House that the first seconded employees have moved to the Metis Federation to begin the process of assuming care for their children. We have provided funding to that organization over a period of a couple of years, in excess of half a million dollars, to develop their capacity.

This is short-term funding to develop the capacity to receive the transfers of cases which will begin later this year and early next year. I expect that my colleague the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) and I will receive within a week the draft detailed plan, which has been drafted in consul tation with the three signatories, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanac and the Manitoba Metis Federation, and that that plan will be shortly going to community groups for feedback and con sultation. Eaton's Building Heritage Status Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Culture and Heritage con firm to this House that he is in receipt of a report that recommends that the Eaton building be classified as a Class 2 heritage building? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): I certainly am not in receipt of any report and I am certainly looking forward to receiving it.

June 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3151 I would also like to point out to the member opposite that with regard to heritage sites and so on, we are looking at $31 million invested in the new Red River community downtown. I know that also, Mr. Speaker, we have the Big 4 building that we are investing in. We are pouring millions of dollars into the downtown. Where do they stand on redevelopment of the city of Winnipeg? Nowhere. We are the ones standing up for Winnipeg. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary question to the Minister of Culture and Heritage: Is he actually contradicting now officials in his department who are saying that the province is sitting on a report from the Manitoba Heritage Council, recommending that Eaton's be pro tected and listed as a Class 2 historic heritage building? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, I, as the minister and certainly the Manitoba heritage advisory council reports to me-have not received a report of any kind. As was pointed out by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), the member opposite has difficulty reading.

Some times, and I do not want to point that out a second time, but I just want to state that there are a lot of inaccurate facts being pointed out by the Opposition with regard to not only this centre, but a lot of the business community are really wondering: Do they really support the redevel opment and the initiatives downtown? Mr. Speaker, I just want to state that this report, I am certainly anxiously awaiting it. With all due respect, there is a process to be followed, and all the levels of government are following that. In due course I will receive it.

I will be pleased to read that and see that report and see what they have to recommend. Arena/Entertainment Complex VLT Revenues Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Several times in recent weeks the Premier (Mr. Doer) has been quoted in the local papers and in press that the maximum amount of revenue returned from VL Ts to the project, the arena project, would be capped at 1.5 million; 1.5 would be all they would receive. My question to the Deputy Premier is: Will she confirm the Premier's statements that the cap will be at $1.5 million? Hon.

Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): There have been so many pieces of misinformation, misinterpretations brought just today in Question Period by the Opposition that there is very little credibility left, it seems to me. What the Premier has said and what is written in this document which has been publicly tabled is that there is a cap on the formula. There is a cap on the formula. It is in the document. It is what the Premier said, and that is what is happening. Mr. Tweed: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a new question. Mr.

Tweed: Certainly the Deputy Premier is correct. There is a lot of misinformation coming forward. The Premier (Mr. Doer) stands up and publicly announces that the cap is at 1.5 million. The Deputy Premier stands up and contradicts the Premier's public statement. The people of Manitoba want to know, and I will ask the minister: Who is telling the truth, or better yet who is lying? * (14:30) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the member started a new question.

Our rules clearly provide and Beauchesne's states that a question must be brief, a

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. I believe the member had three or four

315 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 200 1 sentences as a

preamble. I know it is the longest day of the year, and perhaps in the member's mind that permits him to ask the longest question. Will you please ask him to abide by the rules? Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, it was clearly a new question. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I did recognize the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a new question. On a new question I allow a little leeway on

preamble to all members. *** Mr. Tweed: Again, I just will ask the question. Due to the conflicting stories that are coming out in the press, one comment by the Premier says it will be capped at $1. 5 million, another comment by the Deputy Premier, Mr. Speaker, we have seen the misinformation; we have seen the hidden deals. Who is lying? Who is telling the truth? The Deputy Premier or the Premier? Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: I know it is the longest day of the year, Mr. Speaker. Maybe that means things to the member opposite. Will you please remind him he was just asked to put his question, Mr. Speaker?

Would you please ask him to be succinct in his question. Mr. Tweed: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, the question is very clear. Who is telling the truth, the Premier or the Deputy Premier, or better yet, who is lying? Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that Beauchesne's Citation 409(2): A

preamble should not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. The honourable mem ber has put his question. *** Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, the assumption of this House and of all members is that all members are honourable members. The word "lying" is not normally used in the practice of this House. I accept that members do make mistakes when they bring questions to the House. I do anticipate that they have a duty to bring the correct information, and I will point the members again.

I notice he has not tabled a statement to the Premier; I notice he has not indicated a source; I notice that he has not given me a footnote for that, but nevertheless I will repeat that the public document that has been tabled in this House indicates three types of formulas and that there is a cap on each of those formulas. Over $1. 5 million, those formulas become 80-20, just as other VL Ts are. At 1. 5 there is an allocation of75-25. Under a million dollars there is a different allocation, a more generous one of 90- 10 . That is what it says here, that is what the Premier says, and that is what I am saying.

Arena/Entertainment Complex Public Audit Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): We on this side of the House will clearly accept that this Premier (Mr. Doer) does make mistakes and does exaggerate. Mr. Speaker, this Premier makes statements to the people of Manitoba through the media that implied there was a cap. We want to ask the Deputy Premier just to clear the air for all of us and all Manitobans, whether or not this Government is prepared to have this deal reviewed by the Provincial Auditor so that Manitobans can have full comfort in the numbers that are being presented to them. Hon.

Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, this document is a public document. It is available to all Manitobans who may review it. Arena/Entertainment Complex Business Plan Tabling Request Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, in 19 96, I quote the Premier, who was then Leader of the Opposition, from Hansard: Can the government please account to this Legislature and table the business plan in this Legislature? It is taxpayers' money. We are entitled to the business plan. Can the Premier please provide it?

June 21, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 315 3 Will the Deputy Premier advise the Premier of his words in 19 96 and urge him to table the business plan to this Legislature? Hon. Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Fort Whyte is well aware and in other contexts would argue in an entirely different case. The True North is a private sector- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms.

Friesen: As the Member for Fort Whyte knows and as I was suggesting in another context, he might well argue that True North is a private-sector-led initiative and it is inappro priate for governments in that situation to table business plans which have reference to a third party. This is how government proceeds. Mr. Speaker, this is how the previous government proceeded. Whether it was a REDI application, whether it was the Workforce 2000 grants, when it involved a third party those things were not generally publicly available in full. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Rural Municipality of Ochre River Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, June 15, 2001, was an important day in the history of the Rural Municipality of Ochre River. On that day residents of that R.M. gathered in the Ochre River community hall to celebrate its 1 OOth anniversary and pay respects to all those who have lived in this R.M . over the years and contributed to its success. I was pleased to represent the constituents of Dauphin Rob lin at this event where messages from the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Prime Minister were read.

The highlight of the afternoon was the prominent contribution made by the students of the Ochre River School and their school band. The band entertained the crowd with several selections. The Grades 7 and 8 classes re-enacted the rural municipality's first council meeting. The younger children in the school entertained the audience with several musical selections. Another highlight of the afternoon was the presentation of two Century Farm Family Awards, one to Bob Schapf and one to Glen and Dawn Recknell.

These families were very deserving of this honour, and their neighbours recognized their long-standing contributions to their community. I would ask that all members of this House today join with me in congratulating Reeve Laurie MacMillan and her council and staff and all the residents of the Rural Municipal of Ochre River on reaching this important milestone. May your next 100 years be just as successful as your first 100 years. Fort Garry Rotary Villa Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Last Friday I happily attended the 25th anniversary party of the Fort Garry Rotary Villa. The evening was a wonderful success.

I was pleased to have had the opportunity to meet many of the extraordinary people who both live and work at the Rotary Villa. The complex consisting of 11 6 studio and 6 one-bedroom suites is home to a number of residents, providing them with the opportunity to live in great comfort and to socialize with their friends and neighbours. The villa boasts stunning grounds and even has a large, live tree growing indoors for the residents to enjoy year-round. Having visited the facility several times have had the opportunity to experience first hand the wonderful spirit that fills the air.

The 25th anniversary celebration was made possible exclusively by private and community dona tions. The generosity of those who contributed is greatly appreciated by all who attended. I also want to thank the manager of the Fort Garry Rotary Villa, Ann Sherwick, and Rotarian Douglas Hutchings, Rotary Villa board chairman. for their hard work and commitment to the facility. Finally, I would like to recognize four special women who have been a part of the Fort Garry Rotary Villa since its inception, Zophie Bohatko, Mary Ulstad, Myrtle Parmley and Winnie Ramsay. All have been residents of the

315 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 villa for 25 years. These women were recognized at Friday's celebration for their role in helping to make the Fort Garry Rotary Villa such a warm and friendly place to live. Once again, congratu lations to the Fort Garry Rotary Villa on their 25th anniversary. * (14:40) Fort Rouge Play Structures Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, I want to draw the House's attention to the fact that this afternoon the diverse neighbourhoods of Fort Rouge will be coming together to celebrate the construction of three new play structures in one of the most needy areas of our city and community. The celebration will include children's games, community displays, bands, a firefighting exhi bition, a bash tent for sick bears, a barbecue, and this is all taking place on River A venue from Fort Rouge Park to Fort Rouge School between 3:30 and 8:30 this evening.

This event is about more than celebrating new play structures; it is about building our community. For the first time in Fort Rouge residents, together with community groups and agencies and the three levels of government, have come together to decide what is best for their community. Residents, teachers, day care workers, nurses, social workers and students have met monthly since the new year to plan this event. I know this may be the first time this has happened recently in Fort Rouge, but it will not be the last.

As we celebrate the first day of summer, we also celebrate the beginning of a new way of working together and moving forward. I would like to take a moment, Mr.

Speaker, to recognize the groups that have worked so hard for many months to plan today's activities: the Fort Rouge School parent advisory committee; the Osborne Village Resource Centre; River Osborne Community Centre; Augustine Family Resource Centre; Mayfair Resource Centre; Housing early literacy project; River A venue Co-op Day Nursery; Mayfair hope program; the City of Winnipeg; the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, with the River Heights primary health care team working at the core of this planning event; Anita Neville, the MP for Winnipeg South Centre; Jenny Gerbasi, the councillor for Fort Rouge ward.

I thank all of those who worked so hard for this, and I want to extend an invitation to all members opposite and on our side of the House to come and share a hot dog and enjoy the fellowship of the Fort Rouge community this afternoon. Red River Exhibition Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise before the House this afternoon to speak of an event that has been part of Manitoba history for nearly half a century. The Red River Exhibition celebrates its 50th anniversary this year.

From the first Red River Ex in 1952 at the Osborne Stadium Amphitheatre complex near the Manitoba Legislature, its new permanent home on the West Perimeter by Assiniboia Downs, the Ex has played a

part in the lives and the history of Manitobans. The Ex has had many homes over the years, including the Polo Park Race Track and on the grounds around the Winnipeg Stadium and Arena However, no matter where the Ex was located, it has always stayed true to its goal and mission, which is to showcase the talents, abilities and achievements of Manitobans. The Red River Exhibition Association is a non-profit organization which enjoys the enthusiasm and support of hundreds of volunteers each year. It is truly the efforts of these people that make this event possible year after year.

With the opening in 1997 of Exhibition Park, the Red River Exhibition Association is well positioned to make even more of a contribution to the enjoyment and quality of life of Manitobans and will continue to be part of Manitoba for the next 50 years and beyond. I would urge each and every citizen of Manitoba, but particularly the two-thirds of Manitobans living within a 20-mile ring outside the Perimeter Highway, to bring their families,

June 21, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 315 5 young and old, to this celebration which begins today, June 21, and runs through to June 30. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dak9ta Collegiate Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr. Speaker, a number of exciting events have taken place at Dakota Collegiate in the past few months. On April 26, seven band students and nine supervisors left in two buses bound for Banff for the music festival. Dakota's musicians attended numerous work shops and concerts. The band performed and received accolades from judges, adjudicators and the audience. Congratulations to Ms.

Treichle and her students for this performance. On May 10, Dakota Collegiate held its first annual fashion show. Some 50 Senior 4 students modelled casual sportswear to graduation gowns. Stores donated the clothes, and mer chants gave prizes for the silent auction. Bravo to Luisa Mastrolonardo and Destini Bridges who suggested the idea and organized the fashion show. On May 18 , the third annual job fair at Dakota Collegiate involved 26 businesses who offered part-time summer and full-time employ ment to students. This was an excellent example of local employers helping young people in our community.

On May 31 , an evening of drama included A Night to Remember, an original '50s murder mystery, and Rules of Thumb, written and directed by Senior 4 student, Lindsay Brown, and starring Nick Friesen as a hitchhiker work ing his way across Canada. Finally, over 40 students trained for this year's track and field season. Their goal was to qualify for the provincial championships in June. Ron Guarino, school principal, his staf f and students, should enjoy a well-deserved summer holiday after a year of activities and success. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to recogmzmg the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us Cynthia Chavez from the Museum of North American Indians. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. * (1 4:40) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is leave to give, I guess it is, concurrence and third reading to Bill 301, The Bank of Nova Scotia Trust Company and National Trust Company Act. Mr.

Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed] CONCURRENCE AND THIRD READINGS Bili 301-The Bank of Nova Scotia Trust Company and National Trust Company Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Sale), that Bill 301, The Bank of Nova Scotia Trust Company and National Trust Company Act, reported from the Standing Committee on Economic Development, be concurred in and be now read for a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. House Business Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, would you please call debate on second readings of the bills in the following order: 21, 27, 50, 11 , 32, 33, 35, 36, 37, 46, 49. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 21-The Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council Act Mr. Speaker: Resumed debate on second reading, Bill 21, The Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer).

31 56 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 200 1 Is it the will of the House to keep it standing in the name of the honourable Member for Gimli? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): I am pleased today to rise and put a few comments on the record about Bill 21, The Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council Act. I understand that Bill 21 arose from public meetings that were held last year with the multiculturalism community, and the basic thrust ofthe bill is to establish a new organization.

We do have some questions and concerns with relation to the 16 members that are going to be selected by the ethnocultural organization, plus 5 remaining council members that will be appointed by the provincial government. * (1 4: 50) We agree that issues such as anti-racism, human rights, immigration and cultural diversity are important topics, but it is our hope that this council will be representative of Manitobans from all ethnic and cultural backgrounds. This council should be inclusive, not exclusive. We do have some concerns relative to the process by which the members on the council will be selected.

I thank the minister for affording me the opportunity to meet with her and her staff to ask several questions regarding this bill. She indicated in the selection process that 300 organizations had been sent the nominations, and the deadline has come and gone, but only approximately 25 percent of those communities have responded. Once the minister tables or lists those members that have been identified as nominees, then they will go back to the communities, and only 16 of those will be selected by the community and then reviewed by the minister. So I am raising that at this point in time.

I would hope that the minister would be able to respond to that concern in particular at the committee stage. In fact, she indicated in her comments when she introduced the bill for second reading that the primary role of this council was to ensure that they would be acting in an advisory and advocacy role. She also stated, and I am going to quote her: They may not respond totally to all of the advocacy that is going on, but it is our responsibility as government to make sure that we are open and that we hear from every portion of our society.

So I would suggest that the minister herself has some reservations that perhaps the structure will not permit the inclusivity of the entire community. I will speak in more general terms about the need for this particular structure and this council, but the other concern I want to put on the record at this time is relative to my question in her office regarding whether the council would have a funding role.

She explicitly said no at that point in time, but in subsequent review of her question-and-answer sheet that she provided, the question, will the council have a funding role here, her answer is no and somewhat con ditional. After conducting numerous consul tations in the community, it was evident that the community was satisfied to have the grants administered by government. However, once the council is formed, it will be asked to participate in the review process. So I would like a more definitive response as to whether the council will or will not have any involvement in the grant funding process.

Another question that I asked during my meeting with the minister is whether the council will be able to issue its own press releases. I have gone through the structure process. The means being taken to ensure the council is as representative as possible of the needs of the different groups, as I indicated previously, Mr. Speaker, is one of our major concerns. In 1990 it was a Progressive Conservative government that introduced Manitoba's first multicultural policy.

The fundamental principles of the policy included pride in our cultural diversity; a determination to achieve equality of opportunity for all in the community; and a solid sense of partnership among communities and with government. Manitoba is a province that

June 21, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 57 indeed values the importance of immigration and that prides itself on being respectful of other people's cultural traditions. In fact, under former Premier Filmon's Progressive Conservative government, Manitoba was a leader when it came to issues such as immigration. Indeed, it was under the former government that the Provincial Nominee Program was put in place. That was deemed to be a made-in-Manitoba settlement services agreement that finally became a reality.

In speaking to this bill, the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism stated that the former government was afraid of advice or input. Nothing could be further from the truth, and, frankly, I find those comments quite insulting. We had many, many open public forums. One in particular was the Round Table on the Environment that provided advice, advocacy and education on sustainable develop ment. There were other public consultations on a number of issues ranging from water rights to day cares to the Young Offenders Act.

The Canadian Ethnocultural Council's objectives are to ensure the preservation, enhancement and sharing of the cultural heritage of Canadians, the removal of barriers that prevent some Canadians from participating fully and equally in society, the elimination of racism and the preservation of a united Canada. There has been significant interest in ethnocultural issues over the years in Manitoba.

With more than a hundred different languages spoken in our province and more than 300 different ethno cultural organizations, Manitoba society and culture has been enriched by the continued flow of immigrants to our province. In 2000, 4584 immigrants came to Manitoba. Also, during the previous government's term, Manitoba was the first province to implement a skilled worker promotion and recruitment campaign and pro vincial nominee program and was at the forefront in developing proactive and strategic means to increase provincial immigration levels.

I am very proud of the track record of two of our former ministers of Culture and Heritage because they lobbied federal immigration ministers on issues related to immigration, including landing fees and making sure Mani toba received its fair share of immigrants. Manitoba is proud of its multicultural heritage and is interested in attracting qualified newcomers to further enrich our multicultural fabric. Also, immigration and multiculturalism are recognized as vital to our continuing growth and development.

Many Manitobans of every heritage have built a thriving and prosperous community that continues to attract new immigrants from around the world every year. We take pride in Manitoba in our diversity and our determination to achieve equality of opportunity for all in our community. A multi cultural society provides great opportunities for all Manitobans. Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski, Acting Speaker, in the Chair made reference earlier to Manitoba's policy for a multicultural society, and there were several key points.

I know that my colleague wants to go into more detail with relation to the goals of the multicultural policy, and there were three main components of the policy. We recognized that the cultural diversity of Mani toba was a strength and a source of pride to Manitobans. We recognized that Manitobans, regardless of cultural, religion or racial back ground, have a right to equal access to opportunity to participation in all aspects of the life of the community and to respect for their cultural values.

I cannot emphasize that enough because that, as I indicated, is one of our foremost concerns, that this council be inclusive and ensure that all Manitobans have equal opportunity. The third objective was that the opportunities of the multicultural society would best be realized through partnerships within communities and within government, and that is absolutely key to the success of Manitobans working together and being able to access the same opportunities.

Our diversity in Manitoba is a national asset, and we should respect that we all stand to be enriched by Manitoba's ethnic diversity. * (15 :00) In conclusion, I would just like to wish the members of the Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council our best wishes. We have a history of celebrating the different cultural and

315 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 200 1 ethnic groups that make Manitoba such a special place to live. I am very hopeful this tradition will continue. As I indicated, we on this side of the House will be supporting this legislation. However, we will have questions of the minister. Following the comments by my two colleagues, we will be prepared to move this bill through to committee. Thank you. Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Madam Acting Speaker, I would like to make some comments on Bill 21, which will set up the Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council.

This organization will basically advise the provincial government on cultural matters. This ethnocultural organization will replace the Manitoba Intercultural Council, which was very active and played a major role in the ethno cultural community. The previous Filmon government wound down the Manitoba Intercultural Council. This act will begin the rebuilding of the ethnocultural communities. It will tell us what the certain groups such as new Canadians want. It will give various groups access to government. It will also develop a dialogue and partnership. Multiculturalism is a reality in Canada.

It is an attitude we have towards others and it is something we should foster. This is only the first step in restoring what the MIC once did. Let us hope that this act says to government we will assist new Canadians to adapt to their new country. Many countries support new immigrants in various ways. A European country provides edu cation for their new immigrants until they learn the language. They support them in different ways until they have learned the customs and ways of their new country.

My own parents came to this country. in 1929, Madam Acting Speaker, and had a difficult time, like all immigrants, adjusting to their new country. Multiculturalism was not an accepted concept by the country then, but we have become very progressive and we have learned to accept multiculturalism. Also, if you look at this side of the House, and, I wiii say, the other side of the House, you will notice that this House, especially our side, reflects the cultural makeup of Manitoba fairly well. For this reason we are probably more representative and more interested in cultural communities that make up Manitoba.

I appreciate what the Member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) said about this bill and multiculturalism. Madam Acting Speaker, I always appreciate hearing from the other side. I appreciate the debate that took place on graduated drivers' licensing where several of the members studied the bill and showed real interest and put forward some good ideas on driver training. Until recently I have not heard too much from the Opposition side, but I appreciate the remarks made by the Member for Seine River.

She did refer to what their government had done in 1990, but I do not think the multicultural community is quite aware of their goals and policies. I think they should have done a better job in putting forward their policies. Actually I am surprised the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) has not spoken on this biii. In the last election he pointed out his involvement with the ethnocultural community, but I have not heard anything from him. Last year in Estimates the Member for Springfield was not very positive toward the former Manitoba Intercultural Council.

I wonder what his stand is today, but, as you say, he will be speaking on it. I am looking forward to that debate. It is always nice when both sides of the House express their opinion and improve and make recommendations on legislation. However, the Member for Springfield usu ally has an opinion on most issues, but to this point he has been rather silent. An Honourable Member: Strangely silent. The Acting Speaker (Ms. Korzeniowski): Order. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Yes, Madam Acting Speaker, I would have to say, obviously, to allow for our rules, is the member

June 21, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 315 9 from across the floor prepared to accept a question? An Honourable Member: Out of order. An Honourable Member: It is not out of order. The Acting Speaker (Ms. Korzeniowski): Our rule is where questions are proposed to be put to a member after the member has spoken for whatever time is allotted to that particular item, the question shall be permitted only by the unanimous consent of the House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. The Acting Speaker (Ms. Korzeniowski): Consent for a question? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Some Honourable Members: No.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Korzeniowski): Consent has been denied. * (15: 10) Point of Order Mr. Praznik: I would just like the record of the House to show that it was the New Democratic Party caucus who denied access to other members of this House to put a question to the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg). They must have no confidence in his ability to answer. The Acting Speaker (Ms. Korzeniowski): The Member for Lac du Bonnet, on that point of order, that was not a point of order. *** The Acting Speaker (Ms. Korzeniowski): Would the member from Rossmere please continue. Mr.

Schellenberg: Madam Acting Speaker, I appreciate the interest from the Opposition. It is great to hear them want more information from this side of the House because I think their side of the House is rather lacking in this area As a former history teacher of many years, and I might say Canadian history, I always enjoyed teaching this topic. That is one of the reasons I got up today. The other reason is my parents were immigrants, and that also increased my interest in this topic.

If I gave to the other side of the House the full history lesson that I usually gave to my Grade 11 students, I think I would really get a rise out of them. But I will just tone down my speech, and I toned down my notes already. I would like to draw the attention of this Chamber to changes that brought about in the early 19 70s. The Liberal government at that time had the Immigration Act changed, and three new classes of immigrants were created: family class, refugee class, independent class. This changed our former policies of immigration.

We no longer only received immigrants from Europe but from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean. This changed the Immigration Act of Canada. Also, Pierre Elliott Trudeau developed the multicultural policy at the federal level and, of course, our bilingual framework to recognize the contribution of all cultural groups to our country. This is just one reason why Trudeau was known as a very progressive Prime Minister. We celebrate multiculturalism ann ually by supporting Folklorama, Festival du Voyageur and the Winnipeg Art Gallery where various cultures use artwork to express their values and history to our society.

Public events that pertain to multiculturalism are well attended, which means Manitobans support multiculturalism. We also have the Provincial Nominee Program that the Member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) pointed out that has allowed Manitoba to nominate immigrants. This last year, about 4500 immigrants came to Manitoba under this program. Immigrants from all over the world have come to build this country and have made it the best country in the world to live in. Multiculturalism is a policy that should be valued, shared and understood. I appreciate the remarks from the Member for Seine River.

They actually run parallel to many of the things that I wanted to say. Thank you, Madam Acting Speaker.

316 0 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Madam Acting Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to stand in the House today to speak on Bill 21 and to indicate that I took great pride when I was re-el ected in 19 88 in the fact that our premier of the day had the confidence in me to appoint me to his Cabinet as the Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. At that point in time, multiculturalism fell under the Minister of Culture.

It was not very long, a couple years into our mandate, to a point in time where our premier and our government realized that it maybe was time to raise the profile of multicu lturalism by appointing a minister responsible for multicu lturalism, the first ever min ister responsible for multi culturalism in the province of Manitoba. I was privileged to have had that responsibili ty and that opportunity for several years.

Madam Acting Speaker, when that announcement was made, we had done a lot of work and spent a lot of time and energy and effort on developing the first ever multi culturalism policy for the Province of Manitoba. That was done with significant consultation with the multicultural community. We worked with everyone in the community, had several meet ings, certainly listened to the input of many within our community. I was pleased and proud to be able to introduce the first multicu ltural policy in the province of Manitoba.

I do want to quote from it, because I think it is extremely significant that all members in the House, some who were not around back in the late '80s and early '90s, should not forget the importance that the Fi lmon government placed on multicu lturalism in the province of Manitoba. Madam Acting Speaker, I do want to quote from the policy that was introduced. The policy stated clearly that Manitoba is a multicult ural society and that the Government of Manitoba believes that a multicult ural society is not a collection of many separate societies divided by language and culture.

Rather, Manitoba is a single society, united by shared laws, aspirations and responsibili ties, within which persons of various backgrounds have the freedom and opportunity to express and foster their cultural heritage and the freedom and opportunity to participate in the broader life of society and the responsibil ity to abide by and contribute to the laws and aspirations that unite society. This ideal of a multicult ural society affects all parts of the community and speaks directly to Manitoba's determination to meet the challenge of living together in harmony and equality.

Madam Acting Speaker, I take those words very seriously and. to this day, continue to support that multicultural ideal and know that we also do not consider multicu lturalism to be a recent phenomenon. I think it is important that we are debating this bill today. When we look at National Aboriginal Day, and we look back to the roots and the heritage of our province, and we see that we have from our inception been a multicu ltural society, I do not think we ever can forget the contribution that our Aboriginal or First Nations people have made to the development and to the progress of this province of Manitoba.

So I do not appreciate sitting and listening to the history lesson from a history teacher who obviously did not pay much attention in 19 90 to the fact, and I guess maybe he did not include it in his history lessons when he taught the Grade I I students in River East school. He did not include in that history lesson the multicul turalism policy that was introduced by the Filmon government in 19 90.

I think that did a disservice or an injustice to the students that should have had the opportunity to know and understand the full history of the multi cultural society that we live in today. * (1 5: 20) Madam Acting Speaker, not only did we bring in the first multiculturalism policy to the province, not only did we appoint the first Min ister responsible for Multicu lturalism, but we enshrined that policy into legislation under The Manitoba Multicult uralism Act that was introduced and passed in June 19 92.

So we have enshrined in legislation today on the books of this province of Manitoba a law which speaks to not only members, new immigrants and members of cultures that have come and immigrated in recent years to this province, but to all Manitobans that say that we have shared values. We have shared roles to play in our

June 21, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 61 multicultural society. We have shared responsi bilities to abide by the laws that make up this great province and this great country of ours. Madam Acting Speaker, I do want to indicate also that we were the government that did place a significant focus on immigration by creating a Citizenship branch within the Department of Culture, Heritage. Actually, the name was changed, of the department, to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizen ship.

We negotiated and urged the federal government to move on new classes of immigra tion and to ensure that Manitoba had the ability to foster immigration in a very significant way. We realized that immigration had a very positive impact on the province of Manitoba, and we worked diligently to try to ensure that Manitoba would have the opportunity to bring more immigrants to our province. I think we were successful. The kinds of things that this Government is able to continue are as a result of the things that we put in place when we were in government.

Madam Acting Speaker, I take some great pride in the accomplishments over the years that we were able to achieve as a result of our vision and our moving forward in the area of multiculturalism, citizenship and immigration. I spent a lot of time with many members of the multicultural community in my years as the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and Minister responsible for Multiculturalism. I took great delight in having the opportunity to travel throughout the province and meet with many, many people of many cultures.

People who are part of a multicultural community or society do not have different issues. They have some specific issues that they need to talk about and want to talk about, but they are Manitobans with families, Manitobans with families that want what is best for them in our democratic province and our democratic country. I believe that any type of a policy or a piece of legislation around multiculturalism needs to be inclusive.

It needs to be inclusive, and it needs to say to all members of our society, to all members of our multicultural community that our doors as government are open to all of you, that our doors need to be open to listen to all of you when you have an issue to bring to the table. Madam Acting Speaker, it is very difficult for 25 members of our diverse multicultural community to bring and represent the issues of the over 300 organizations and the thousands and thousands of individuals who make up our multicultural society.

So I have a little difficulty with this legislation, because this legislation singles out 25 individuals from possibly 25 different organi zations. I know that there are 300 organizations throughout Manitoba that should have an equal voice and an equal access to the Government and to the Minister responsible for Multi culturalism. I do not believe that there should be a select few that represent the views of the 300 organizations. I do not see any mechanism in this legislation that ensures that all 300 of those organizations will be consulted before issues are brought forward to the Government.

The legislation only seems to say that this council, these 25 select people out of the thousands that make up our multicultural soci ety, that those 25 have to in any way consult with the 300 organizations, meet with them, call those organizations together and ensure that the issues that are being placed before this minister and before this Government are truly reflective of the total multicultural society.

What we did in legislation and in policy was try to ensure that every member of our multicultural society, every organization in our multicultural society had access to our ministers and to our ministers' offices. So I have a little difficulty in understanding how this legislation will truly bring the significant issues that affect our total community to the table of this minister. Is this minister then going to say to others that might call that are not part of her select few that they have to go through this council, that her door is not open to them should they come with an issue that wants to be discussed?

I have some difficulty thinking that we have to move away from being inclusive to saying to people you are not welcome. I have a council, and I have my select representatives that I have chosen. You know, maybe that is the way this Government wants to deal with members of our

316 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 200 1 multicultural society. I wish them well. I hope that the minister will be successful in receiving representation that will be truly reflective. But, when I look around this Chamber, when I look around Manitoba, I would believe that out of the 300 organizations that 25 may not be repre sentative of every different cultural background or every different community that might have specific issues that they want brought forward. So I have some difficulty with enshrining in law special privileges for a select few at the expense of all.

I will indicate, Madam Acting Speaker, that this legislation will pass. It will pass because the New Democratic Party is government and has the majority in this House. They are putting forward legislation that does in some way restrict the ability of all Manitobans that have an issue around multiculturalism from being able to have their voices heard by this Government. I would hope that would not be the case.

I would hope that the minister will be able to explain to us at committee how she plans to overcome those issues and how she will break down the barriers and how she will explain to the thousands of others within the multicultural community that they are not as important as the select few that she has chosen to represent.

Twenty-five people to represent the diversity of thousands of Manitobans that have come to our province, have built our province to what it is today, truly reflective of the communities that are represented in Manitoba by the different waves of immigration and by our First Nations that were here long before many of the new immigrants that we see today. So we will listen with interest to representations that are made at committee.

We certainly will be asking the minister some questions about how the process is going to work and how she is going to deal with the exclusion of thousands of Manitobans that might want to have their voices heard around the Cabinet table and in the minister's office. * (1 5:30) With those comments, Madam Acting Speaker, we are prepared to send this to committee.

I just want to indicate again how pleased and honoured and proud I was to be the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism, the minister responsible for bringing in the first multiculturalism policy in the province of Manitoba, the first multiculturalism act. I still believe very much in the principles, the goals and ideals that were enshrined in legislation when we were government.

I would hope that this new legislation and some of the answers to the questions that I have put on the record today can be answered by the minister so that truly members of the multicultural community in Manitoba will feel that they are all equally welcome by this Government. Thank you. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Madam Acting Speaker, I stand today and speak on one of the issues that is one of my first loves. My first home was on McGee Street, right off of Ellice A venue, right in the heart of a multiculturalism community. We had neighbours that had emigrated from all over the world, as my parents had.

I lived it, I breathed it, and I enjoyed it. Throughout my whole life, what we call multiculturalism or diversity, or however you want to call it, has been very important to me. It is part of my fabric. It is who I am and why I am here. I just want to talk a little bit about that. I have spent a lot of time in multicul turalism, and it probably starts with my parents immigrating after the Second World War. Unfortunately, my parents did not live that long, so a lot of these questions I did not have the opportunity to ask of them, but I asked my aunts and uncles on their behalf: Why choose Canada?

Why not stay in Europe? The feeling was always that there was a war-tom Europe, poor, devastated, the middle class, what there was, had been wiped out, what they owned was gone. My mother arrived in Canada in 1949 on a displaced person's pass, went to Saskatchewan and worked off her fare on a farm. One of my aunts was with her. Of course, they had been raised in very proper families, but they were also very hungry, and often the farmers were very nice people to them. It was customary to stand with the food. They would stand at the table and say, would anybody like anything else to eat? Nobody would say

June 21, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 63 an ything. All the leftovers were then put into a pan. That was meant to go to the back and feed some of the animals. Actually all the immi grants, who were starving basically and were too proper to say an ything, would then go and they would eat all the food, whatever was left. Fi nally the farmer lady one day asked them and said: Why is it we just cannot seem to fatten up the pigs? Because all the workers who were so hungry but too proper to say anything at the table would eat the food in the back of the kitchen in the pantry.

They came to Canada and could not believe the wealth that was here after coming from a war-torn Europe. Again, my mother came in 1949. I believe my dad came in 19 52. My older siblings remember him telling us a story that he arrived here on a train in one of our very famous blizzards. He looked outside the window and he said: I am not staying, take me back. So a couple of big guys came and said: You are getting off. This is the end of your ticket. They picked him up and they threw him out. That was his entry to Winnipeg. He ended up learning to love Winnipeg and this province. That is how many came here.

Even when you talk to Europeans today they have no idea, they cannot fathom the size of this country. Just recently good friends of ours had relatives arriving from Romania. They got a really cheap ticket into New York. So they wrote and they said: Why do you not come and pick us up from New York? And why not? They could save themselves a lot of money. So anyway, the relatives wrote them back and said, you know, from us to New York is like from you to Moscow. They thought it was one of those, you know, ha, ha, ha, we are not going to pick you up.

So they wrote back and said: Fine, if you do not want to put any effort to come pick us up from New York we will take a bus. So they got on the bus, know no English, drove for about six hours and then it stopped. That is of course a break, right? They figured no reason really to get off. What they did not realize is then it drove for another six hours. Well, they did not get off for a bathroom break. I guess there might have been one on the bus, but certainly no food. They did not understand what the bus driver was saying, so for 12 hours they sat, no food, no water.

Finally they somehow communicated with the bus driver that clearly they had to have something to eat. He explained to them, well, we stop every six hours. Anyway, they got to Winnipeg. I think it was either 36 or 42 hours later. They got off the bus and they said: Where do you live? This has got to be the end of the world. Where do you live? They said, well, we told you from New York to Winnipeg is like from you to Moscow. They said, well, we thought you were just being polite and saying that we are not going to pick you up. Anyway, they ended up flying back to New York and took the flight home from there.

That is how Europeans when they come here and people from other lands who are used to very tight kind of countries come here. They are just awed at the open spaces and certainly the wealth of it. When I was the chairperson of the MIC I was allowed to go to citizenship courts. I always found that when I told some of these stories, certainly those that had arrived just recently loved them. One of my favourites that my father had, of course he and all his buddies were standing outside a little corner grocery store, if anybody remembers those still, and there were all the Canadian guys.

They were all cool and everything. So these immigrants decided they were going to get themselves a little quart of milk. They brought the quart outside, you know, a very nice quart, and pulled out their pen knif e and cut the bottom corner off. They passed it around and all took a sip out of the bottom, all the Canadian guys laughing at them, till finally they consumed all the milk. Then one of the guys came over and said, here, let me show you something. He opened up the top for them. They didn't have to cut the corner off. Well, they felt a little smaller, but, you know, that was part of it.

My one aunt says, when they arrived on the shores of Canada, you got off, and there was an escalator. Well, who had seen an escalator before? They had two Canadian customs officials standing on the bottom, and they would just pull everybody onto the escalator, and remarkably the steps rose you up. On the top, they had two more people who had to pull everybody off. So it was very interesting. That is kind of how you got your entry to Canada.

316 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 200 1 Another one of my more favourite stories is my dear Aunt Elsie Hembruch who decided she was going to become a Canadian. Well, other than working hard-I mean, that is what you did when you got here. You tried to pay off the house, because that was the European thing to do. Debt might as well have been Satan; you try to provide for your family. So she is going to go and get her Canadian citizenship. At that time, you had to stand in front of the judge, and they asked you questions. So the question he asked her, he says: Mrs.

Hembruch, how many people live in Canada? Well, she knew that there were quite a few people living in Winnipeg, must be other people living around, so she said to him, she says, well, judge, there has to be at least 17 000. They gave her her Canadian citizenship anyway. * (15 :40) My grandparents tell me another interesting one. They got a package of Jell-0 in the mail. Of course, they could not read English, so they looked at the instructions, hot water, mix in, and thought that looked all very easy. So they boiled the water and mixed it up, and there is obviously a hot drink.

So they all sat around that night and they made this nice hot drink. It was a little sweet, of course, but they sat and they drank their hot drink. Anyway, the rest they put into a pitcher, put it in the refrigerator, and, my goodness, in the morning, you got up and you could not get it out of the pitcher. So they took it downstairs and asked the landlord: What is wrong with our juice? She, of course, enjoyed it at their expense and explained that actually you are supposed to eat it not drink it, but they learned from that, too.

Of course, when you come to this country as an immigrant, I mean, also the children, even though you were born here, I mean, you are raised in those traditions. My one Aunt Elsie always went to the store, and you jumped in and you became Canadian. Of course, here in this country you bought everything by the lb., by the "li b." So that is how she would stand there and say, I would like two "l ibs" of hamburger meat and two "li bs" of this, and I will have a couple of "libs" of that. So the teacher one day at school asked my cousin Trudy: Okay, does anybody know what this sign says?

Well, of course, my cousin knew that because she went shopping with her mother and put up her hand. The teacher says : Okay, what does the lb. stand for in weights? She says, well, that stands for "lib", and the teacher said, no, that stands for pound. What do you mean? That stands for "l ib." She came home and she said, mom, do not ever call that a "lib" again. That is a pound. That is how we all learned, and it was a great experience. We still get together and laugh about these stories and many more of them. I certainly got involved in my church; I got involved in my community.

It is interesting, Madam Acting Speaker, that the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) asked why the Member for Springfield, myself, had not gotten up to speak. Well, I wanted to give the opportunity to a few others. Certainly, I would make sure that I know what my community thinks. I like to know what is going on in my community. I certainly spoke to a few individu als about this bill. I just wonder if the member from Rossmere worked as hard getting his community support on the doubling of gambling as I did speaking to this bill. But we will let him answer that one.

I got involved, amongst other organizations, in the MIC, and who could forget my time on the board with Wade Kojo Will iams? He always had a lot of advice for me. In fact, I bump into him periodically; Joanne Lewandosky-Kuzia, who I still appreciate as one of my good friends; Sam Koshy who, dare I say, Madam Acting Speaker, ran for the party opposite. He and I became very good friends. In fact, believe it or not, good NDPer that he is, he came out and canvassed for me as schooi trustee because he said he appreciated the work that I did. He is from India originally. He speaks Chinese, Ukrainian, Urdu.

He would go to doors, and, you know, you have got to love politics in the multicultural com munity. He would go to the doors, and they would say: Do you speak Urdu? Yes, I speak Urdu. I am canvassing for this man. Is he a good man? And he would say; Yes, he is a good man. Good, then we will vote for him. Sam Koshy, who, I think for me, personifies multicu ltural ism, his heart was always in the right place. Maybe his politics are not always in the right place, but I will forgive him for that one, but certainly his heart is in the right place. He was a

June 21, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 316 5 great individual. He was sort of the executive director of the MIC at that time, and he and I had the opportunity to work through a lot of issues. I know we were working at that time on the multiculturalism policy, and again he really had his heart in the right place. I was appointed initially by the government , and then I became a delegate to the MIC from my community. It was not soon after that, that I was elected by the community, if you would believe it. The minister at the time, the honourable Member for River East (Mrs.

Mitchelson), appointed me as chairman because, of course, whatever the choice of the MIC was, the minister then appointed. We certainly had a lot of tough meetings. We had a lot of very passionate discussions on where the MIC was going, and I felt that the community had matured to the point where it could then have its own organization. I see that the government of the day is looking a little bit more to an MIC model, and that is government's prerogative. I do point out there are those concerns laid out by my colleague in that, again, you have to watch the inclusive, exclusive.

Like in any organization, there are individuals who are appointed that are supposed to be representing their communities, and we hope that they are. We know that most of them do. Maybe some do not. How do you get that balance to make sure that those who are elected actually represent the interest of the greater community? I was also involved on the MMRC. The Manitoba Multicultural Resources Centre was involved with them-Los Latinos, Dr. Louisa Loeb, 0. T. Anderson and others there too. They certainly had a very strong input in the multi cultural community. The Folk Arts Council, another venue.

Who can forget Don Blair, Tony Tavares, and the group? I went to a multicultural conference in Calgary, and those stories I cannot tell, but I can only say that it is probably the most I ever laughed in my entire life. I think from the moment we woke up to the moment we went to sleep, we laughed. We had a great time. It is great to get together with other communities and find out where multiculturalism is going in Canada. Again, there was great networking that took place. I was involved with organizations like Max Reinhardt Theatre and others, of course, in my community.

But, again, I think the bill that is before us does have some difficult areas in it. I certainly hope that the minister might have another look at it. No bill will be perfect. I think we all recognize that. Maybe there are some areas that could be looked at to strengthen that those who are on the commission or on the committee, or that are going to be sort of the leadership of the group, that they maybe be mandated a little more strongly to represent the greater community, because we want to make sure that this is not an exclusive club.

It is not to become that and I know nobody intends it to be that, so we want to be careful on that. I have been on a lot of organizations. I mention MIC, MMRC, Folk Arts Council. You want to be careful that the leadership does not become disconnected because, just like with governments as with any other organization, you become disconnected from the membership and in very short order, you lose the moral authority really to speak for them. I do not know the exact numbers of the respondents from the letters that came back. That might be very telling. What kind of support is there in the community for it?

You know, really there should be an overwhelming support for this. Who is calling for it? Certainly, we want to make sure that this is very reflective of the communities. I would suggest that we also look at the new communities coming in, the more traditional communities who have been here for 1 00-and-some years who, you know, are able to defend themselves a lot better. But it is the new communities that come in. They are not as strong in the language skills. They are just trying to find their way around the city.

Let us make sure that they are well represented, and certainly that their interests are being represented on this commission. I do not know if there is a lot of clarity on the funding side, how that is going to work. I would caution the minister I am not entirely convinced, and again, I am willing to be convinced of this. As I stand right now, I am not too sure that advisory to the Government and

316 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 200 1 funding are a natural mix for organizations like these, because the two do not seem to work that well. I know under the previous government you still had the MIC and you had MGAC, and the division of those two seemed to work. Certainly if there are problems with it, we would like to hear about it in committee. I am always, as anybody else here, willing to learn and listen how things have changed.

But I know, during the MIC days, that was probably one of the difficulties: the funding being caught up in being an advisory board to the Government. *( 1 5:50) Anyway, we certainly look forward to hearing presenters and hearing the communities, and again, I will be out as I am on an everyday basis, out in my community. I pose these questions, whether it is standing around the campfire a couple of nights ago, or if it is at a soccer game like tonight. I pose these questions: What do you feel? What do you think? We want that feedback to come back to this Legislature.

Like I said, I have such a soft spot when it comes to multiculturalism, when it comes to new Canadians, because those were my parents, my relatives. and again, this is something that I feel very strongly about. I hope that what we do, that we do it right. It is done for the right purposes; that it serves those who really do need help in getting accustomed to Canada and getting that feeling they are welcome here, because-I will close with this one-I know of several families who have immigrated. They first went from Russia to Germany. In Russia, they were not German. In Germany, they are not Russian.

They come to Canada, and they find out: You know what? Nobody cares. It does not matter. So what? You are Russian or German or Polish, Ukrainian, Filipino, Jewish; it does not matter to us. It really does not matter. So the one family went back for Christmas, and they said: Ah, it was the three worst weeks of our lives. They went back because, you know, you just do not fit in Europe because you are not that group, your not that group, and they come here. I asked them a couple of weeks ago, and they said: I love it in this country. I absolutely love it in Canada. This is where I want my children to be raised.

They are a young couple; they have young children. This is where we want to be. So what we do here I think should help those kinds of individuals. Let us get them in and make them feel comfortable in this country, and continue to build really one of the greatest countries in history we have had in the world. With those notes, I will pass it on to the next speaker. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Acting Speaker, I rise to speak briefly on Bill 21, The Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council Act.

I am ready to give general support to putting together the Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council. But I would suggest that there are some serious omissions in this act which would have really helped in making sure what was put forward and put in place really was a workable and influential council. First of all, the make-up of the council. It seems to me that the constitution of the council needs to be done in a fair way that will truly be representative of the multicultural community which is so important to our province.

Indeed, this is so important that it really should be in the act itself: how the members are going to be selected. That could, indeed, be a serious subject of discussion and debate, and I would hope that the Government will introduce some amend ments to clarify how this will happen and make sure that everyone knows right from the start and has the opportunity to discuss and debate this. With regard to the five members of the council who are appointed by the minister, it is not clear, at this point, what sort of appointments the minister is going to be making.

I would refer back to, as an example, the Round Table for Sustainable Development, where government appointees were primarily ministers. Is that the endeavour here, or is the Government going to appoint people from the multicultural com munity, or bureaucrats? I mean, who are the government appointees? I think this should have been clarified. It would certainly have helped for a better understanding of the intent of this council, where it is going and what it is going to do.

June 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 316 7 Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair In looking at the purpose of this council, which is a short paragraph, it contains admirable goals to be concerned with anti-racism, education, human rights, immigration, settle ment, cultural and linguistic diversity and heritage-all-important in this province. All important as we approach our goal, which is a diverse, multicultural, open, tolerant society.

But the problem that I see is that the way this is constituted, it probably provides a forum more for lip-service than to real service to the multicultural community. I would look back again at The Sustainable Development Act, which set up the Round Table for Sustainable Development.

Although I have been very critical on some occasions at the former Conservative government, in this instance, The Sustainable Development Act laid out quite carefully the functions and the goals and the plan of action with specified timetables, so that it was quite clear what should be accomplished within the first year, the second year, all the way to five years out. In this act, we have no idea what they should be accomplishing. They are to advocate in the most general terms, but what are the deliverables? What are the real goals? What should we expect in a year, two years, three years, or five years?

We really do not know. I think that that is a problem, and I think it will be a problem in not having set this out at the beginning. I notice that the NDP government seems to have difficulty in carrying through and in following timetables and accomplishing goals. Clearly, when it came to The Sustainable Development Act, they had a lot of difficulty meeting timetables, and getting things done according to the timetables, and the plan and the framework that was already laid out. That was a reasonable framework for action.

But in this case, what we have is not much in terms of real objectives, goals, deliverables and timetables. I think that this is a problem for the Government that they have set up, as I said, an organization which, if care is not taken, will provide lip service rather than real service. There are important questions about how this council will operate. It seems to me that they should be set out in the act. Are the meetings of the council to be open to the public, or to the media?

Or is this an NDP move to put things behind closed doors, to have secret meetings which will not be open and where there will not be public or media allowed? We do not know how this council is going to operate. Clearly, in an open, tolerant society we should expect open meetings, but we have no guarantee of that. I have a concern that this may evolve into something which is a closed, rather than an open council. There is a provision for a quarterly report.

But there is no provision to keep minutes or records of the meetings, and how they will be communicated to the general public, or whether these are going to be available. You know everyone in Manitoba should know what is being said on so important a topic and so vital an area for the people in our province. So the reality is that when we look at this act, there is much more that is omitted than that is present, and that there are many questions. One can only hope that the Government will introduce some amendments and improvements to this act before it passes all the way through.

There have been in the last little while a number of concerns and questions related to the Government and its involvement and support of the Immigrant Women's Association of Mani toba. Clearly, this is an organization which is involved in immigration, settlement, human rights and anti-racism activity. Yet, the Govern ment has not been nearly as supportive as many in Manitoba would have expected.

So, from my point of view, I just have some concerns about whether this Government is really going to deliver what is an open and tolerant functional approach to the multicultural community in these areas, or whether, in fact, they are going to have a council which operates behind closed doors without producing reports, without a real plan and timetable. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I lay these concerns on the table, and I just hope that before this is finally passed the members of tile Government will introduce some amendments

316 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 2001 and make some changes to improve this and make it really a much more functional and co'llplete and clear council in the way that it acts and contributes to the life and work of Manitobans. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Deputy Speaker: On second reading of Bill 21, Th e Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council Act;

Loi sur le Conseil ethnoculturel manitobain de consultation et de revendication. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt this motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Agreed. It is ordered. * (1 6:00) Bill 27- The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act

(2) Mr. Deputy Speaker: Resume debate on Bill 27 standing in the name of the honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura). Is there leave to let the bill stand? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to have the bill stand in the name ofthe honourable Member for Morris? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Leave denied. Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to address Bill 27, and I believe there are a number of my colleagues who would like to put some words on the record on Bill 27 and have it passed to committee today.

Bill 27 is a very short concise bill, and it really is composed of two things. The first portion of the bill is to bring in uniform rates across rural Manitoba, to require Manitoba Hydro to charge the same rates throughout the province, for power supplied to a class of customers connected to its main power grid. This is something I can support. This is some thing that I am prepared to vote in favour of. T

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-51b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 51b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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