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November 4, 2014

41st Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2014-Nov-04 (PDF)

L024 - Tue 4 Nov 2014 / Mar 4 nov 2014

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Tuesday 4 November 2014 Mardi 4 novembre 2014

Orders of the Day

Time allocation / Attribution de temps

Introduction of Visitors

Oral Questions

Ontario economy

Municipalities

Privatization of public assets

Forest industry

Sexual harassment

Forest industry

School breakfast programs

Public sector accountability

Sexual harassment

Assistance to flood victims

Air ambulance service

Child care

Mining industry / Industrie minière

Federal-provincial public infrastructure funding

Visitors

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

True Patriot Love

Missing persons

Remembrance Day

Annie Underhill

Anniversary of Sikh massacre

Remembrance Day

Violence Against Women Services Elgin County

Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Veterans / Anciens combattants

Reports by Committees

Standing Committee on General Government

Introduction of Bills

Respecting Private Property Act, 2014 / Loi de 2014 sur le respect de la propriété privée

658055 Ontario Inc. Act, 2014

469118 Ontario Limited Act, 2014

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

Crime Prevention Week

Winter highway maintenance

Ontario’s After-School Program

Crime Prevention Week

Winter highway maintenance

Ontario’s After-School Program

Crime Prevention Week

Winter highway maintenance

Ontario’s After-School Program

Petitions

Family Responsibility Office

Home care

Environmental protection

Alzheimer’s disease

Hydro rates

Legal aid

Wind turbines

Climate change

Environmental protection

Coast Guard Auxiliary

Workplace safety

Legal aid

Opposition Day

Privatization of public assets / Privatisation des biens publics

Adjournment Debate

Child care

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Time allocation / Attribution de temps

Hon. James J. Bradley: I move that, pursuant to standing order 47 and notwithstanding any other standing order or special order of the House relating to Bill 10,

An Act to enact the Child Care and Early Years Act, 2014, to repeal the Day Nurseries Act, to amend the Early Childhood Educators Act, 2007, the Education Act and the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts, when the bill is next called as a government order, the Speaker shall put every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill without further debate or amendment and at such time the bill shall be ordered referred to the Standing Committee on Social Policy; and

That the Standing Committee on Social Policy be authorized to meet on Monday, November 17, 2014, from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m., and 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m., and Tuesday, November 18, 2014, from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. and 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m., for the purpose of public hearings on the bill; and

That the Clerk of the Committee, in consultation with the committee Chair, be authorized to arrange the following with regard to Bill 10:

—notice of public hearings on the Ontario parliamentary channel, the Legislative Assembly’s website and Canada NewsWire;

—witnesses are scheduled on a first-come first-served basis;

—each witness will receive up to five minutes for their presentation followed by nine minutes for questions from committee members;

—the deadline for written submissions is 8:30 p.m. on the second day of public hearings;

That the deadline for filing amendments to the bill with the Clerk of the Committee shall be 12 p.m. on Thursday, November 20, 2014.

That the committee be authorized to meet on Monday, November 24, 2014, from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. and 6:30 p.m. to 9 p.m., and Tuesday, November 25, 2014, from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. and 6:30 p.m. to 12 midnight for the purpose of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill; and

On Monday, November 24, 2014, at 3 p.m., those amendments which have not yet been moved shall be deemed to have been moved, and the Chair of the committee shall interrupt the proceedings and shall, without further debate or amendment, put every question necessary to dispose of all remaining sections of the bill and any amendments thereto. Any division required shall be deferred until all remaining questions have been put and taken in succession with one 20-minute waiting period allowed pursuant to standing order 129(a); and

That the committee shall report the bill to the House no later than Wednesday, November 26, 2014. In the event that the committee fails to report the bill on that day, the bill shall be deemed to be passed by the committee and shall be deemed to be reported to and received by the House; and

That, upon receiving the report of the Standing Committee on Social Policy, the Speaker shall put the question for adoption of the report forthwith, and at such time the bill shall be ordered for third reading, which order may be called that same day; and

That, when the order for third reading of the bill is called, two hours shall be allotted to the third reading stage of the bill, apportioned equally among the recognized parties. At the end of this time, the Speaker shall interrupt the proceedings and shall put every question necessary to dispose of this stage of the bill without further debate or amendment; and

The votes on second and third reading may be deferred pursuant to standing order 28(h); and

That, in the case of any division relating to any proceedings on the bill, the division bell shall be limited to five minutes.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Mr. Bradley moves notice of motion number 7. I recognize the deputy government House leader.

Hon. James J. Bradley: I’m very pleased to contribute to this important debate, and I look forward to hearing from my honourable colleagues across the aisle.

Mr. Todd Smith: But not the people of Ontario.

Hon. James J. Bradley: I’m even looking forward to hearing the candidates for the leadership of what they call the Progressive Conservative Party of Ontario. I used to call it that, Mr. Speaker; now I call it the Conservative Party of Ontario. You’ll hear from my—

Interjection.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Perhaps we’ll have a chance for all of the people who are leadership candidates, except one who is not going to be able to be here but will be here in spirit, that being, of course, the gentleman who ran for mayor of Toronto, who I understand if not the front runner is at least second in the race at this time. We would be delighted to see him in the race and contributing.

Interjection.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Now I want to get back to the motion, at the suggestion of the opposition House leader. By the way, I’ve had that job of opposition House leader, and I can predict the speech that you will be making on that occasion. In fact, he could probably simply go to Hansard and the speech would be ready for you.

Mr. Speaker, five months ago—yes, fully five months ago—the people of Ontario gave our government a strong mandate. They placed their faith in our government and our priorities. They were clear that they wanted their government to pass bills. They asked the members elected to get their acts together and work together for the interests of Ontarians. The people of Ontario expect their government to take action on (1) helping to strengthen our economy, (2) investing in modern infrastructure and (3) supporting our essential services. Our government appreciates that. That’s why we are committed to making this Parliament functional.

This government is determined to deliver results for the people of Ontario, and a key part of the government’s ambitious legislative agenda is Bill 10, the Child Care Modernization Act. I would like to thank the minister, Liz Sandals, for all of her hard work in bringing this bill forward and the widespread consultation that she has been engaged in previous to bringing it forward. I know that her office and the Ministry of Education have worked closely and held extensive consultation with all of its education partners, including child care providers and relevant stakeholders, to develop this proposed legislation.

Now, in general, I want to say at this point in my remarks that the concern I had with the previous situation, where the opposition had more seats than the government, was that very little legislation was moving through. Minority government does have an opportunity to work. The best experience I think I had with a true minority Parliament was from 1977 to 1981. There had already been a minority Parliament from 1975 to 1977, previous to my coming to this House by virtue of the support of the people of St. Catharines—

Mr. John Yakabuski: You didn’t run in the 1975 election.

Hon. James J. Bradley: I did not.

On that occasion—what I wanted to describe to you is this: The 1975 to 1977 era was not all that productive. People weren’t used to a minority Parliament, so it didn’t work well. The government wasn’t as responsive as it should have been, and the opposition wasn’t as responsible as it should have been, so it was not functioning very well. Premier Davis called an election to get a majority, in fact, and fell short of that majority. There was a recognition that we had already had one minority Parliament; now we were going to have another one.

I think the three parties determined that it was going to work. The government brought forward its legislation. The opposition debated it, but there was reasonableness on all sides. It worked very well for Premier Davis. In fact, as a result of that almost four years—

Mr. John Yakabuski: In 1981.

Hon. James J. Bradley: —in 1981, March 19, 1981, the government was returned with a majority at that point in time.

Interjection.

Hon. James J. Bradley: I can recall for the member for Pembroke—sorry, for Barry’s Bay—I can recall for him, and I will recall this for him, that when talking about how we’re no longer in a minority Parliament, he used terminology which said, “Welcome to the realities of March 19.” I’m not going to use that terminology today because I think that would be inappropriate; it would sound arrogant to say it.

I always look forward to the interventions of the opposition. It’s never enough time for the opposition; I understand that. I spent more time in this Legislature on that side of the House than I have on this side of the House, so I fully understand where the Legislature comes from.

I also understand that while, yes, there may be those who would be speaking and manoeuvring only to delay things, there’s also genuine concern amongst members of the Legislature. I would suggest that on all sides there are concerns about any bill and the ramifications of the bill. So I don’t demean the role of the opposition. You have debated this extensively. The critic has asked some significant questions in the House, as he should, and has done so in an exemplary fashion, in my view. But we have to proceed with this legislation. We have to move this legislation forward. It’s not as though it’s something nobody knew about; it is something that we knew was coming forward.

I want to provide some context on how we got to this point in time. Bill 10 was originally introduced on December 3, 2013, almost a full year ago. It went through several hours of debate on second reading—not one or two hours, several hours of debate on second reading. The government endeavoured to pass this bill in the previous Parliament but had no luck because the opposition, it says here, needlessly tied up the business of the Legislature.

This bill has been debated in the Legislature eight different days since it was introduced last year, including six days within the past two weeks. So once again, there has been some extensive debate. I’ve followed it, if not right in the Legislature itself; I have followed it through both the electronic Hansard and the print Hansard, which I no longer have on my desk, but is available to members of the Legislature.

By stalling this bill, the opposition isn’t just delaying urgent action for our children; they are blocking other important bills from moving forward at the same time. We need to move this bill forward.

If passed, Bill 10 will modernize our child care and early years system. The proposed bill will replace the outdated legislation that currently governs child care in Ontario, and I know that’s something everybody will want to see happen. This legislation will make our system more responsive to the needs of parents and children. It will strengthen the oversight of the child care sector.

As I already mentioned, the ministry has undertaken extensive stakeholder engagement at every stage of its work on child care modernization. I think that’s important to note. When you say you’ve had consultation, it doesn’t mean you’re going to agree and adopt everything everyone says. That was a valuable opportunity to be able to consult with people. That included engagement with private school operators, who are not currently licensed under the DNA, as well as numerous members of the licensed child care sector, including the Home Child Care Association of Ontario.

Speaker, allow me to provide some background on this type of motion we’re debating this morning. As members may know, time allocation was codified in the standing orders in the early 1990s when the NDP was in power, and I well remember that. The NDP is both the mother and father of time allocation motions because very extensive amendments and changes to the orders of the day, the procedures of this Legislature, were made by the NDP.

When they get up to speak about the fact that time allocation isn’t an appropriate tool to be implementing—they are both the father and mother, they are the parents, of time allocation motions in this province, because they recognized at the time—they truly believed at the time—that, in fact, the opposition of the day was being obstructionist. It was difficult for them to move the legislation forward, so they decided to provide for this.

This will help speed up things since this change in standing orders allowed governments to put forward a debatable motion that would limit the length of debates on government bills and motions and help speed up passage of key legislation. Time allocation motions allow for committee time, where the real work happens. As always, the public will have an opportunity to participate through public hearings and written submissions.

I should say, at this point in time, I well recall when the official opposition was in power under Mr. Harris as the Premier that often there wasn’t any committee time that took place. There was no allocation of time permitted there. So therefore, our government is permitting committee time, not rejecting committee time as the Conservatives did when they were in power. I know you weren’t here, Mr. Speaker, at that time because you would have spoken in caucus vociferously against the fact that there would be no committee time included. Well, there is committee time in this particular case.

This motion allows for two days of public hearings that go into the evening—now that’s something a little different; go right into the evening—so that all who have an interest in this important piece of legislation can appear before the committee. The opposition parties are welcome to put forward amendments to strengthen the bill, if they believe it needs strengthening, during the clause-by-clause process.

Time allocation is one part of the legislative tool kit available and has been used by all three parties in the Ontario Legislature, some more frequently than others.

Mr. John Yakabuski: As consecutively as this party?

Hon. James J. Bradley: From 1999 to 2003—probably the member for Barry’s Bay wanted to know this fact: From 1999 to 2003, the last Conservative government time-allocated 60% of its bills.

Mr. John Yakabuski: You’re at 100%.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Something else to consider: The PC Party supported time allocation as recently as the last minority government, and I was pleased to see that.

Although it is our government’s preference to allow bills to progress through the normal course, these types of motions are from time to time necessary. Our government has an ambitious legislative agenda, because that is what we believe the people of Ontario deserve. I urge all members of this House to support this motion and help pass this bill as soon as possible.

Mr. Speaker, we find ourselves having had some extensive debate, having consultations taking place by the Minister of Education and by members of the House who have received written representations or perhaps have had meetings with people with a specific interest in this bill. There has been a lot of debate, a lot of discussion. Those who are directly impacted have had a great knowledge of the intricacies of this bill and have made known their comments so that when the bill was being formed, there were changes that took place that reflected some of the consultations that the Minister of Education had at that time.

I know members of the opposition are eager to speak to this piece of legislation. I want to give them that opportunity. My anticipation is that the House leader of the official opposition will be speaking in favour and voting in favour of the legislation, though I may be incorrect in that. The NDP, who are the parents of time allocation motions, of course, will be supporting this with a good deal of enthusiasm.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I say, you’re doing a wonderful job in the chair.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I would like to thank the member from St. Catharines, the deputy government House leader.

Further debate?

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Thank you for the opportunity to speak to what I consider to be a very sad day in this Parliament when we time-allocate a bill that has not been consulted properly. Obviously, this bill was brought forward because this particular document came out: Careless about Child Care.

I want to thank the member from Hamilton Mountain, who took the time to ask the Ombudsman to do a report on the inefficiencies that have come from this government through the Ministry of Education on child care over the last decade. When this report came out, the government bragged that they’ve already adopted something like 30% or 35% of the recommendations in here. That is just the beginning of a number of problems that we have with Bill 10.

I can tell you that I’ve heard a number of government members mention “after the minister consulted.” The minister did not consult with any of the independent child care providers in Ontario. That is why in the first week back I asked our House leader to go to the House leaders’ meeting and ask if we could have travel with this bill, because, of something like 800,000 children in the province of Ontario, about 75% to 80% of those children are looked after by independent child care providers. I thought maybe those people should have a say in this bill. Is there something wrong with that?

Those are people from Thunder Bay, from Kenora, from Ottawa, from Pembroke—all across our province—and now they’re sending in letters by the hundreds. They have rallies coming up. We’ve had a couple already; we’re having more this weekend.

We know the government has made up their mind. They’re running as fast as they can to try to cover up under this bill, under this Ombudsman’s report. The quicker they can sweep it under the carpet, the better it will be, because they do not want those people, those 800,000 children who are under independent child care providers, to have a say. In fact, most of them across this province know nothing about this right now. There are literally thousands and thousands of families.

How many people will this put out of work, if we adopt this bill in its present form? Around 60,000 people; 60,000 people will be put out of work because they’ll have to shut down their small businesses. Now, these are people who take in two or three or four children. It supplements their income and it helps out some of their neighbours down the street. They make, you know, $1,000 a month or something like that. That goes towards paying their mortgage or their car payments or heating, and it helps provide the other families with a place to babysit their children. We’ve been doing that for years.

I mean, that’s something that’s common in Ontario, and now what are we going to do? We’re going to have a Ministry of Education police force, the enforcement division, kind of like that bunch of jokes at the College of Trades.

Mr. Speaker, that’s where we’ve come in this province. We no longer care about what the average family thinks; we’re going to be mama or papa to all of them. So what are we going to do? We’re going to send out a police force. There will probably be—I can just imagine it now—little pink and blue minivans running around, and if they see some lady going down the street with a stroller for three, “Let’s nail her. She’s probably a villain. We can charge her $200,000,” or whatever the fee is that they’re going to nail people with. It’s insane.

All I ask for, Mr. Speaker, all I asked for from day one, was for this bill to be travelled. I know my colleagues in the NDP did the same. The whole child care division of the Ministry of Education has been a disaster for the last decade, and we’re going to clean it all up before Christmas? Give me a break. That will never happen. You know what? They won’t put the resources into the enforcement, so what will happen? It will continue on exactly the way it is. Those independent child care providers who are looking after those 800,000 children today will be doing it underground, the same as what happens with the College of Trades or any of these other enforcement divisions.

It’s amazing how we have to enforce everything with a separate division of its own—like the MNR. They’ve got the conservation officers, and the Minister of Natural Resources brags about that. You know what? They haven’t got enough money for the gas for the trucks. They don’t go out. The odd time they’ll take a trip out to enforce hunting and fishing, because they don’t have enough money in their budget. The same at College of Trades. We had to have that. What have they really done so far? They’ve just nailed people for more money, another tax. And what have we got?

We’ve got people at the College of Trades who aren’t as effective as homeless people on the street—they’re completely useless to Ontario, as far as I’m concerned. And now we’ve got the enforcement division at the College of Trades.

You know what? Maybe they’ll do some economizing here. They will have the enforcement division of the Ministry of Education to nail these child care providers, and maybe what we’ll do is we can do some cost savings here and have the College of Trades guys help them. Can you imagine that going around: a guy with a hard hat, and it will be a blue-and-white uniform, a blue-and-pink uniform. You know, you can see it happening right now.

This is nothing but a joke, and this government is trying to push this thing through as fast as they can, because they do not want these independent child care providers across Ontario to unite and actually voice their concerns. The sooner we can get this thing done, the better it will be.

The deputy House leader mentioned very briefly that we’re going to have night committee hearings. Well, I wonder if there will actually be teleconferencing allowed, because thousands of people will not be allowed to have their say on this bill because it is not travelling. So surely to God, Mr. Speaker, we’ll allow people to conference call in from different parts of Ontario. Instead of sitting at night, I would have rather maybe taken a trip up to Thunder Bay with the committee and actually met some people, or over to Windsor, even during the House sittings.

As recently as yesterday, we were under the impression that the House leader actually had some strong feelings towards making this more open and transparent. Now, there’s a word: transparency. This government brags about transparency. Can you believe the things that are happening under this transparent government? A hundred per cent of the bills so far are time-allocated. We’ve got a project like this MaRS project over here—another disaster. It falls in line with the transparency around the power plant scandals. Can you believe that? We can’t have those people in anymore to testify; the OPP know better.

That’s what we call transparency here, but we’re going to pass a transparency accountability act. Let’s give our heads a shake.

It’s almost embarrassing, Mr. Speaker, to be elected and come here and have to sit in this House and listen to this garbage, because over and over again, they let the people of Ontario down by playing papa and mama to the citizens of Ontario. As far as I’m concerned, the people who know best about how to handle their children in the province of Ontario are the mothers and the fathers of those children, not Kathleen Wynne or any of the people on that side of the House.

I think the average family takes a lot of pride in who babysits their children, or what daycare they take them to, and I think it’s a disgrace that we not allow those people to say a few words at a time when there’s an opportunity to really voice their concerns on a bill that will be, in fact, a bill that may last for many, many years. Let’s get this thing right.

So will they really actually listen to amendments? I don’t think so. There might be one or two. But you know what happens in these committee hearings: The opposition proposes an amendment, we do a lot of research into it and then the Ministry of Education bureaucrats give speaking notes to the parliamentary assistant to say why it’s wrong. Now, keep in mind, the Ministry of Education bureaucrats are the same people who caused this Ombudsman report to come out in the first place. They didn’t do their job in enforcement.

So whatever we hear coming from the parliamentary assistant when it comes to the amendments we propose on the bill, we know that it is the same people who made this up, that are the result of that happening.

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to say a few words this morning. I think you probably know where I stand. I’m embarrassed to say I sit in this House and to time-allocate a bill that should have travelled across this province—how many weeks are we really out, Mr. Speaker? Think about it. We’re about in the middle of November—sorry; the first week of November now. With the time allocation, we won’t get this bill passed until sometime maybe around the first or second week of December. All I was asking for was to travel in the winter months.

We’re back here anyhow by Family Day, which is the middle of February. They could have done their clause-by-clause and third reading then. We’re out seven or eight weeks at the most. That’s all we’re out. That’s all I asked for, as the critic for education. And what do we get? We get time allocation.

We’re batting 100% on time allocation. That’s obviously the way this government is going, and I guess we’re going to have to put up with this. They have the majority, and I guess in four years the people will decide whether they like time-allocated motions and to be treated, basically, how some people are treated in Ontario, which is in a very poor manner.

I have hundreds of letters and emails coming into my office right now. I wish I could read them all. But those people will try to be present at rallies; they’ll try to be at some of the committee hearings. Maybe there might even be a demonstration or two here at Queen’s Park. But the reality is, this reminds me a lot of the horse racing industry, how they handled that. Remember that? The casino modernization plan—boy, for a few weeks there, the finance minister and Paul Godfrey and these guys were going to change the whole world. There were going to be casinos everywhere.

They were fighting about whether it was going to go in Vaughan or Toronto or Niagara or wherever. Whatever happened to that? Nothing. Nothing happened, because they didn’t realize that people were tapped out for the kind of money they were gambling.

What have they done in the meantime? They’ve destroyed the horse racing industry. About 40,000 jobs are now gone out of that industry, impacting everything from the people who grow hay and sell it to the farms, right through to veterinarians etc. That’s the sort of thing we get when we don’t listen to the opposition. You didn’t listen then and we destroyed the horse racing industry; now we’re going to drive the child care industry underground in Ontario because of this bill.

I thank you for the opportunity. I know that other people in my caucus want to speak later on. I appreciate the opportunity. We will continue to fight on behalf of the child care providers in Ontario and on behalf of the children in Ontario who deserve nothing less than a strong opposition to this pathetic bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I’d like to thank the member from Simcoe North. Further debate?

This government is proposing, by way of this motion—and it will pass because they have a majority—that everybody in Ontario who has something to say about this bill or something to say about the issue of daycare services in this province is not going to have an ability to do so if they don’t happen to live in downtown Toronto.

I think that’s a really sad statement because it is the Premier of Ontario, Kathleen Wynne, who said, on getting elected as the leader of the Liberal Party, as a new Premier in the last Parliament and again through this last election, that she was different, that she would do things in this province and she would run this administration differently than the Liberals had run it before under Dalton McGuinty.

She kept on talking about wanting to have a conversation with Ontarians so that Ontarians could be in a conversation with their government so that we could hear them, said Kathleen Wynne, and what their needs were, what their anxieties might be and what their aspirations were, so that the government could properly reflect that in everything they do.

I think there’s a certain amount of people who bought what the Premier had to say at face value. They said, “She looks like a nice enough person,” and I’ve got to say, from a personal perspective, I think Kathleen Wynne is a very good person. As a person, person to person, I think she’s quite outstanding that way. But I think what we’re starting to see in her leadership as Premier—there’s starting to be little difference between her and Dalton McGuinty.

What the government is doing today—never mind that we members are not going to have as much time to debate in this House; nobody back home really cares about that. What people back home care about is that they have an opportunity to have their say on public policy when it comes to what this government does.

The fact that this government, by way of this motion, is saying, “Unless you’re able to get to downtown Toronto, to Queen’s Park, on two days in November, you’re not going to have an opportunity to have your say on daycare policy in this province”—there are people across this province who have issues when it comes to daycare, some of whom may agree with some of the items that are in this bill, as far as trying to regulate some of the unregulated daycare sector. But there’s a whole bunch of other people who are saying, “Listen, my issue is real simple: I can’t get daycare.

I live in Kenora, I live in Cornwall, I live in Moosonee or I live in Sarnia, and I cannot get daycare.”

What are we doing for them? What is this bill and what is this government doing for those thousands of families who are trying to get daycare services in their communities? That’s really what’s at question in this debate this morning. The crux of this debate and this time allocation motion, I believe—it’s important, yes, for members to have their say in this Legislature and to have proper debate at second reading; I don’t want to undermine that. But the real travesty in all of this is that the public is not going to have their say.

If you live in Cornwall or you live in London or you live in Sarnia or you live in Sudbury, you’re not going to have a chance to have your say when it comes to what’s happening or not happening with daycare in this province.

For the opposition to ask, as has been the request for some time, to have some public hearings on this issue—I think it’s a real travesty to the public. I think the public has a right to know and to have a say about what their government is doing.

What is this Legislature all about? Why is it that we have democratic elections every four years? Why are we sent here? We’re sent here to represent the people, but it doesn’t mean to say that once we walk into the door, we slam the doors to the Legislature and we say to the public, “You can only put your nose to the window and dream of having your say and hope that somebody happens to mention in this chamber what’s important to you.”

What you need to do is bust the doors open and allow, as we used to in this Legislature once upon a time, committees to travel, and to be able to go to where people live and to say, “What do you have to say about this?” Sometimes, you’ll be surprised to hear what they have to say. I know that I travelled on committee a number of years under the old rules, where there was no time allocation, where there were no limits when it came to debate. Governments had to send bills out on the road to be able to hear the public. Guess what used to happen? People used to come and give us ideas.

People would point out and say, “You’ve got a good idea in your bill, government,”—whoever it might be; and I’ve seen it from all three parties—“but here’s a suggestion of how we can make your bill better.” Or, “Here is something that you may have forgotten about,” or, “Here is the reality that I have to live in my community that you’re not taking into account in this bill.” It allowed the legislators, the members of the committee, to do what it is that we’re sent here to do, and that’s to properly represent the public of Ontario and to take their ideas and to try to work our way through everything we have heard so that we can try to make the bill reflect the wants, needs and aspirations of the people of Ontario.

The moment that you close those Legislature doors and you don’t allow the public to have their say about what happens when it comes to legislation is a bad day for democracy in the province of Ontario. And it’s a bad day and a sad day for the rest of Ontarians.

Oh yes, the government will say, “We’ve given you two days of hearings.” I’m going to tell you what they’re going to do. They’re going to say, “We gave you”—I think it was—“from 3:30 to 6 o’clock”—I’m looking at my whip to help me out here—“and from 6 o’clock to 9:30, two days running, to have public hearings here at Queen’s Park on daycare.” I can almost guarantee we’re not going to fill all the slots because we’re only going to be asking for people who can get into Toronto to have their say.

If you happen to live five blocks down the street or maybe you’re somewhere down the subway from Queen’s Park or maybe you’re an hour’s car ride from Toronto, you’ll have an opportunity to come and have your say. But all those people who are living in London, Sarnia, Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Cornwall and Ottawa, they’re not going to be able to get down here—most of them don’t have the means to get down here in the first place—to be able to have their say. So we’re going to limit 80% of the geography of Ontario and probably around 40% to 50% of the population of Ontario to have their say about this bill.

Why is it not as important to know what the people of London, what the people of Sudbury, what the people of Cornwall and what the people of Oshawa have to say? That’s what this place is all about. And the government says, “Oh, look at us. We’re being generous. We’re going to give you two long days of hearings in Toronto.”

I’m sorry, Ontario is just not Toronto. Toronto is important. Ontario can’t operate without the city of Toronto. This is not an anti-Toronto thing. Toronto is key to the success of Ontario, but so is the rest of Ontario key to the success of Toronto and the success of this province. If we as legislators allow the government to say, “The only people that we want to hear from are those people in close proximity to the city of Toronto,” I think that is a real mistake.

I would propose that what we need to do is give some time for this committee to be able to travel outside of the GTA so that the people in communities outside of the GTA, as selected by the committee—and leave this up to the committee—are able to say, “Yes, I want to have my say,” and have an opportunity to come forward.

With that, and with my brand new rhinestone glasses—because I broke my glasses and these are my cheaters; I don’t want anybody thinking this is a new style—I want to propose an amendment to the motion. Speaker, I will send you a copy of the same. It reads as follows:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the second paragraph and substituting the following: “That the committee shall travel for up to five days outside of Toronto, for the purpose of public hearings, as determined by the committee.”

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Mr. Bisson moves that the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the second paragraph and substituting the following: “That the committee shall travel for up to five days outside of Toronto, for the purpose of public hearings, as determined by the committee.”

Back to the member from Timmins–James Bay for further debate.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: To be clear, at this point I’m now speaking to the amendment to the motion, but I’m still allowed to speak to the main motion.

The reason we’re putting this forward is pretty simple. As I laid out in what I was saying in the few minutes I had preceding this particular motion, it is of paramount importance that the public of Ontario has its say. If the government is not going to see it in their own hearts to be able to do what they’re charged to do, and that is to give the public an opportunity to have their say, it’s incumbent upon us as the opposition to push the government in that direction.

I know the government has said no to the proposal of having 10 days of hearings, which was proposed by the official opposition. We felt it was important to come up with some kind of compromise and that the compromise be that, in fact, there be allowed five days of travel outside of the GTA for the public to have their say. It’s not a lot, but it’s something that I think is reasonable as far as being able to give some communities in this province an opportunity to have their say.

The people to determine those communities to have that would be the committee, as we always do. The subcommittee would meet. They would look at where there are areas of interest that want to speak to this geographically and say, “We have five days of hearings outside of the GTA.” They can figure out where they’re going to travel in those five days. They may decide to split morning and afternoon in one community or the whole day in a particular community.

I would hope that if this motion passes, and I’m hoping that the government will allow this amendment to pass, there would in fact be some travel in the various regions of this province, that we wouldn’t just do it in one region. We need to make sure the southwest, the southeast, I would argue northern Ontario—that we find some mechanism of making sure that we can get the committee out to those particular communities to be able to do this.

The government could do this, if it chose to, and if they really wanted to, we could probably do it before Christmas. I would argue that it would be better to do it after, but if the government is really bent on trying to get this thing done before Christmas, there’s enough time legislatively to be able to do that. We’re coming up to a constituency break. The committee could travel during the constituency break. We could have a discussion at the House leaders’ meetings in order to allow the committee to travel during the time of the House sitting. It’s not something that we’ve normally done.

It’s not something I’ve normally been in favour of but, like everything, you’ve got to find a way to compromise and work across the aisle to say, “What’s the compromise to get this done?”

I say again where I started from, it’s the Premier who sets the tone. It’s the Premier, Kathleen Wynne, who said she wanted to lead a different type of government. She wanted the public to be engaged in debate with their government and this Legislature. She was going to have a conversation with Ontarians about the issues that mattered to them. Well, you cannot just have a conversation with yourself. To have a conversation, it has to be engaged with somebody else and that somebody else, I suggest to the Premier, is the people of this province, to give the people of this province the ability to say what they have to say about daycare.

On the issue of daycare, I will guarantee you, there are people across this province who are struggling to find affordable, accessible, safe daycare for their families and are having difficulty doing so, and I’m sure, to that issue, people will want to speak ad infinitum.

But I also suggest, to the central part of what this bill is all about, and that is regulating the unregulated side of daycare, there are people who are going to have some thoughts about how that should or should not be done according to what the government has put forward.

I would argue the way to go is to increase the not-for-profit side, such as what Thomas Mulcair and the federal NDP are proposing to do. I think that’s where you go. It’s rather unfortunate that this government has done hardly anything on that side in the 10 or 11 years they’ve been the government. Oh, yes, the government likes to speak a good line. They like to invent bills that have wonderful titles to make the public feel as if, “Oh, yes, our government is taking care of you. We’re going to do something about daycare.”

But I propose that this particular bill is not going to do anything for somebody somewhere out in Ontario who’s trying to get a daycare spot for their child. This bill is not going to create new daycare spots. It’s going to deal with how we regulate the unregulated sector and, if anything, it might make access to daycare more difficult depending on how the private sector reacts when it comes to these particular measures in the bill.

Our motion is pretty clear. We’ve put an amendment to the time allocation motion that the government has put forward. This is not about my right as a member to have a debate in the Legislature, although I think that’s important. This is about the people of Ontario, and if the people of Ontario cannot have their say when it comes to what’s in a bill, then I think it is short shrift to democracy. I think it’s the government not recognizing their responsibility and making sure that the public should have the right to have their say.

Again, I say I will be surprised if we fill all of the spots in the two days that the government has given us, because they have said, essentially, “You’ve got two days of hearings in Toronto.” You know what? There’s a lot more people in this province than just downtown Toronto, and there are all kinds of people in other communities who won’t be able to come here, who would easily fill those spots if we could get out to their communities.

So I would ask the government and I ask the official opposition to support our amendment and to make sure that this committee is allowed to travel for up to five days outside of the GTA so that we can hear the other people, really important people of this province, when it comes to what they have to say on this particular issue. With that, I’ll leave the rest of the time for our caucus.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I’d like to thank the member from Timmins–James Bay. Further debate?

Mr. Steve Clark: It’s a pleasure to speak to the amendment. I want to thank the member from Timmins–James Bay for making that amendment. Our critic, the member for Simcoe North, Mr. Dunlop, was pretty clear on what our request was: We’ve asked for travel around the province. In fact, at one of the previous House leaders’ meetings, I read a letter to the government House leader; I showed the government House leader a letter from my critic dated October 20, addressed from Garfield Dunlop, MPP, Simcoe North:

“Dear Mr. Clark,

“I have received a significant amount of negative feedback on Bill 10, the Child Care Modernization Act. I hope the House leaders can unanimously agree to allow the committee to travel this winter so that families all over Ontario who are impacted may have a chance to voice their concerns about the bill.”

I was very clear to the government House leader what our intentions were. I gave him very specific suggestions on the cities that we would travel to. In good faith—and I want to stress that: “good faith”—I communicated directly to the government House leader what our caucus asked for, and I want to thank the member from Timmins–James Bay for putting an amendment forward that reflects what our caucus request was.

I want to tell him that I’m going to support the amendment that was presented. I think it’s extremely important. I thought, Speaker, right up to yesterday afternoon that we were still negotiating with the government. Yesterday afternoon, during debate of Bill 10, I walked over to the government House leader and was talking to him. So either he is an expert at bargaining in bad faith or the Premier put the iron fist down on him and negotiations were over.

You know, this government and the deputy House leader—the dean of the Legislature, the member for St. Catharines—Minister Bradley, talked about Mike Harris and used the statistic of 60% time allocation. The difference is that we’ve had three bills that we’ve communicated to the government on; we’ve had three time allocations. This government is batting a thousand. I know Mr. Bradley is a bit of a Blue Jays fan. He’s batting a thousand when it comes to time allocation motions.

I’d have more respect for this government if they would just level with the opposition, if they would just tell us exactly what their plan is. At least with Mike Harris, he would tell you what his plan was. He would look you in the eye and say, “This is what I’m going to do.” This government says one thing and does something completely different.

In the two previous time allocation motions—I talked about our House leaders’ meeting. The government was very clear to Mr. Bisson and me. They gave us four bills that they wanted to get passed very quickly in this session. What they asked was that we have a couple of hours of debate in the Legislature, we go into committee for a couple of days of hearings and come back for two hours or so of debate at third reading and get them passed. So I took it to our caucus. I asked our caucus if they had any concerns. Mr. Dunlop immediately, even though Bill 10 was not on the list, gave me this letter regarding Bill 10, as the critic, and asked for committee hearings. I’ll come back to that.

So we communicated that there were a couple of bills that we wanted to have hearings on. Bill 15, the auto insurance bill: We felt there were a number of tow truck operators and storage companies that wanted to be heard—fair and reasonable, Speaker. We wanted a few days of hearings outside of this building, outside of Queen’s Park, so that we could hear from people who had concerns with the bill.

We also indicated that we wanted committee travel on Bill 21 because of the blood plasma aspect of that bill. In fact, there were stakeholders who were here in the building on Thursday. They sent me a letter regarding having province-wide hearings—very specific, Speaker. I’d have more respect for the government if they just looked me in the face on Bill 21, and all of those stakeholders—there are a number of groups across the province—and just level with them and tell them exactly what they’re going to get in terms of hearings; none of this, say one thing and do something else.

We had a very important debate in this House yesterday afternoon about Bill 10. I put some of my constituents’ comments and concerns on the record. I’ve already had emails this morning from a constituent who is in the child care business in her home and very concerned about the future.

The member for Simcoe North hit the nail on the head when he talked about the number of providers out there who will be affected by this legislation: 70,000—we estimate up to 140,000 spaces.

I don’t know what it is about this government that they have to put up a wall between the two opposition parties. Having five days of hearings is not unreasonable. I was very sympathetic to the government House leader and his concern about the regulations that will need to be put in place after Bill 10. The member for Simcoe North and I had a conversation here yesterday, and we were saying, “If there are some concerns about the regulations, then maybe we should meet in the intersession. Maybe we should try to

schedule some hearings while the House is sitting,” which is exactly what Mr. Bisson just said. It’s exactly what I said to the government House leader. I said, “I think we’ve got some movement on these hearings. Can you get back to me?” At no time did he indicate anything about a time allocation motion. In fact, I was shocked to have one of the Clerks at the table hand me, probably less than an hour after I had that last conversation with the government House leader, the fact that we had this hammer put down on us.

I just can’t understand why we can’t work on these committees and meet outside this place. I joked, with my first time allocation motion, about the Premier’s words where she talked about governing from the activist centre—I joked that she has renamed the Legislative Assembly “the activist centre” because everybody has to come to the activist centre if they want to be heard.

I heard the member from Beaches–East York talk about the government whip’s comments on Skype and teleconferencing. This is a government that, by its own admission, is going to govern through teleconferencing. To have a motion—and thank goodness it was amended by the member for Timmins–James Bay—that provides two days of hearings—and this is the government’s trade-off: that we’re not just going to meet on the first day, November 17, from 2 till 6; we’re also going to come back from 6:30 to 8:30.

So here’s a daycare provider in Ontario who looks after children all day in her home, and her only opportunity to talk about this bill is to call in between 6:30 and 8:30. Well, I live three and a half hours away. The top end of my riding is more like four and a half or five hours away. There’s no possible way that somebody is going to drive in from Leeds–Grenville to make a deputation before the Standing Committee on Social Policy. There’s no possible way.

So for the government to say, “Well, we’re trying to accommodate people from 6:30 to 8:30 on November 17 and from 6:30 to 8:30 on November 18”—that’s ridiculous. That’s an insult in terms of a government that pledges it’s going to be more open and transparent. There were a lot of empty words in the throne speech about openness and transparency, a lot of empty words, and the government is not putting any of them into practice.

We were fair and reasonable. The amendment, Mr. Speaker, is fair and reasonable: To allow us a few days of committee travel outside of this place, I think, is the only way to deal with this bill. It will signal to other stakeholders a willingness from the government to hear the other side, to listen to opposition concerns, and to listen to concerns from rural providers.

The Premier gets very upset when the urban-rural divide is discussed. But this bill, the way it’s presently written, only adds to that division, because ridings like mine that are rural, that need as many child care options as possible, need to have the flexibility and not be imposed by the government.

I don’t want any child care spaces decreased in Leeds–Grenville. I want the government to find ways to work with these existing providers. So how are we going to hear these existing providers? Again, the government has only provided four hours in the afternoon and two hours in the evening for two days. It doesn’t make sense.

Mr. Bisson’s motion to delete those words and to substitute “That the committee shall travel for up to five days outside of Toronto, for the purpose of public hearings, as determined by the committee,” allows the committee—I’ll use some words that the government likes to use: It will allow the committee to do its work. This motion will allow them to pick some locations that will give people a chance to speak on this bill.

The member for Simcoe North also talked about a number of protests that are going to take place, and I know that, because of the heavy hand of the government House leader, one is going to be scheduled in Ottawa, I understand. I don’t know the date. I am going to allow the member for Simcoe North a few minutes to speak in favour of this and to reiterate his support for the bill.

Speaker, it’s so important, in this majority Parliament, that we have an opportunity for the government to present its case on passing some bills. I want to put on the record again that we were supportive of letting a number of bills go through at a faster pace than normal in return for some minor committee travel. That didn’t happen. This amendment will allow us that opportunity to travel to at least five locations outside of this city to give those rural daycare providers who are going to be most affected by this bill the opportunity to have their words heard.

With that, I know that the critic wants to say a few words. I know the third party wants to speak as well. I’ll just park myself for the moment.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further debate?

M me France Gélinas: Well, I’m really proud of the member from Timmins–James Bay for having moved this very important amendment to this bill. It is important to make sure that everybody in Ontario has a chance to be heard.

When I found out that this bill was going to be time-allocated, I started to reach out to people who had connected with me, saying, “Listen, we have some issues with this bill. We have some good ideas to change it, to make it better.” They wanted to be engaged. They wanted to be part of the process, which is what all politicians want. We want to make sure that the things we do matter to the people we serve.

So I reached out to Karry Strelezki. She is a daycare provider in Lively in my riding. Well, for Mrs. Strelezki from Lively to come down to Queen’s Park—here’s what she says. I read from her email: “In regard to going to Queen’s Park to present these problems, while it’s something that I would love to do, unfortunately that would leave five families without daycare, they are my priority.”

This woman has been in the business of running a private daycare for over a decade, for over 13 years. She is known in Lively. She provides very good child care. She has some good ideas as to how to move this bill forward, how to change it to make it better, because she knows the business of child care.

If we do like the member from Timmins–James Bay is suggesting, if we travel, I guarantee you that Karry will come and she will present. You will get to hear from her first-hand the good ideas she has to make things better, to make this bill do what we really want it to do, having a strong network of child care that is secure for the children who go there, no matter where you live. But Karry, like everybody else from Nickel Belt, won’t have an opportunity to be heard if the government has its way.

If we listen to the amendment from the member from Timmins–James Bay, Karry will have an opportunity to be heard, and I guarantee you that this bill will be better. Her ideas are worth listening to, and she should be given a chance. Let’s bring the committee to the north. Let’s give people like Karry a chance to be heard, and the legislation we will move forward will be better.

I also heard from Sarah Lalonde. Sarah also has a daycare in Hanmer, in another part of my riding. I will put on the record basically the email she sent me: “As per our phone conversation”—I phoned her to let her know, “Listen, there’s not going to be much debate on this bill; your only chance to be heard is to come down to Queen’s Park.”

When you live in Hanmer, coming down to Queen’s Park is not an option. It is almost impossible to do this there and back in the same day. We just had eight inches of snow last Friday. Believe you me, you don’t travel fast when there’s eight inches of snow and not a snowplow to be seen. But here’s what she says: “As per our phone conversation ... I promised a letter that you could read”—because she won’t be able to come down. If we listen to the member from Timmins–James Bay, though, Sarah would have an opportunity to tell her story, to say how make this bill better. She goes on to say:

“I am a 24/7 daycare located here in Hanmer. I am very saddened by the deaths in private daycares. However, I’m upset placing blame on all unlicensed daycares. I am unlicensed, as I and my parents enjoy the freedom to do as the children wish and not required to follow a regimented schedule. I also do not want to pay a company to give me more paperwork and take” up to “30% of my income, because as it stands now, some days I only make $5 an hour, well under minimum wage, while I still have to cover all the running costs. I don’t do this for the money but for the love of the children in my care.

“With putting age restrictions, I will have to give at least one family notice, and it would be very difficult to find care as your licensed centres that they will be forced into” close at 6 p.m. “Who will watch the children after 6?” Remember, she provides 24/7.

“I beg you to please look at all points and not the media. Licensed daycares could just as easily have a death in a centre. I don’t think it is a matter of licensed or unlicensed but a matter of supervision and following through on complaints. As for being licensed, I would be more than happy to have someone come into my house and see how things are done. However, I want my program and flexibility and not garnish 30% of my $5 an hour.”

That came from Sarah Lalonde, who lives in Hanmer. Sarah has much more to say. I have two pages of emails that she has shared with me that I won’t have time to read into the record, but if we were to travel this bill, she would come forward. Not too many child care providers have the experience that she has providing 24/7. I come from a mining community. Everybody who works in the mines works 24/7. The mines don’t shut down for Christmas, for statutory holidays, for nothing.

There are not too many child care providers who have the experience that she does, who are open on Christmas Eve, on Christmas Day, and look after those kids. Sarah does that. She is there 24/7. She has issues with the bill and she deserves to be heard.

I will put on the record some of what Karry also has to say:

With the Legislature and Bill 10 coming up for second reading, “I wanted to reach out to you again.…

“The proposed ratio of five children under 13 with a restriction of two under two, plus the inclusion of the provider’s children under six (when children begin school at four years of age) is not a viable model. This is clearly an attempt to have independent providers either close their doors or work for an agency. We believe this is the government trying to absolve themselves of any perceived responsibility by the public.

“We believe the government is trying to distance themselves from independent providers because of the media and lobbyists’ wholehearted support of for-profit agencies and centres. It is consistently suggested that independent providers are unqualified, offer substandard care and resist licensing and this bill clearly supports those misrepresentations. The reality is that many independent providers are early childhood educators or have a degree in child development, and the majority adhere to the five-under-10 ratio outlined in the current Day Nurseries Act, as well as apply best practices....

“Up to 80% of Ontario’s children are cared for by independent child care providers (ICPs). Where will they go if so many of us have to close our doors? Rather than making child care in Ontario safe, affordable and accessible this bill will make child care in Ontario less accessible and certainly more expensive.

“However, we would embrace a registry or licensing system for all home daycare providers in Ontario [which] would ensure that the bill’s objective would be accomplished. Wait-lists for subsidized spots could be immediately reduced if independent providers were individually licensed. These registries could also develop health and safety standards that would have to be met in order to qualify for a licence. I would happily obtain a licence or become registered if either of those options were offered. Instead, this bill leaves room for only two choices: either operate my business at a loss” or work for a for-profit agency.

“I am opposed to essentially being forced to give up my business in order to join an agency that will take as much as $12,000” a year “from my gross annual income. I will potentially have available spots and not be able to fill them with children because the child in need of care is not over two, potentially leading to a loss of $20,000 in gross income. No family can survive this drastic reduction of annual income so the cost will be passed to parents at an average increase of 30%. Those providers that shut their doors will be facing an unemployment rate of 7.1%”—which is where it stands in my community.

“What will we do with the 350,000-plus children currently in independent home care who will be displaced when ICPs with young children have to [close] their doors entirely? Why are we being eradicated from this bill instead of recognized as equals to our sister agency providers and ECEs working in centres? I am entirely in favour of new standards that ensure the health and safety of our children, but this approach is extremely flawed, and will lead to a child care crisis in Ontario.”

We held a press conference and they don’t feel that they were heard. I encourage you to do what the member from Timmins–James Bay has said: Travel this bill to at least five communities in Ontario. Come to the north. Talk to those child care providers. Some of them have years of experience. They want to make the bill better and they have ideas on how to do this.

Le député de Timmins–James Bay a proposé que le comité prenne le temps d’aller écouter les gens à l’extérieur de Toronto. En ce moment, le gouvernement veut donner aux gens de Toronto l’opportunité d’être entendus. Mais l’opportunité d’être entendus à Toronto veut dire que des gens comme Karry et Sarah, qui viennent de mon comté et qui ont de bonnes idées, n’auront jamais la chance d’être entendus, parce que pour eux, c’est clair que de faire le voyage de Nickel Belt et se rendre à Toronto pour présenter pour une période maximum de cinq minutes, ce n’est pas quelque chose qu’ils sont capables de faire.

Ça voudrait dire laisser les enfants, les familles de Nickel Belt, sans ressources pendant une journée complète.

Comme j’ai dit en anglais un peu plus tôt, M me Sarah Lalonde offre un service de garderie 24/7. Il y a beaucoup de personnes dans Nickel Belt qui travaillent dans les mines, qui travaillent dans les services policiers, qui travaillent à l’hôpital, etc., qui travaillent 24/7. Ces gens-là ont des enfants. Ces gens-là ont besoin de garderies, pas seulement que du lundi au vendredi, de 7 à 5. Ils ont besoin de garderies 24/7. Cette dame-là offre le système de garderie 24/7. Elle l’offre pour des parents qui ont besoin d’aide.

Elle a des idées pour que les choses s’améliorent, mais à moins que la proposition qui a été faite par le député de Timmins–James Bay ne soit adoptée ces femmes-là, parce que ce sont deux femmes, n’auront jamais la chance d’être entendues. Ces femmes-là ne sont pas capables de se rendre ici pour partager leurs idées, ce qui veut dire que, vraiment, ceux qui sont à Toronto auront la chance d’être entendus, mais tous ceux qui demeurent plus loin n’auront pas la chance d’être entendus.

Quand on vit dans une démocratie, quand on sait qu’il y a des gens qui veulent être entendus et quand on entend un gouvernement qui nous parle de transparence, de donner la voix et de respect de la démocratie, il me semble que le plus beau geste qu’on puisse faire pour respecter la démocratie est de donner aux gens la chance d’être entendus.

Tous les députés, j’en suis certaine, ont reçu des courriels et ont reçu des appels de gens de leur comté qui ont quelque chose à dire par rapport à ce projet de loi-là. Des garderies, il y en a partout; des enfants, des familles, il y en a dans tous les comtés; et des gens qui ont des idées pour rendre le système meilleur, il y en a à la grandeur de l’Ontario.

Faisons honneur à la démocratie. Faisons honneur au député de Timmins–James Bay, qui nous a donné la possibilité de faire le tour de la province pour que ces familles-là, les familles qui ont des enfants, et ceux qui offrent des systèmes de garderie, aient la chance d’être entendus. Ça, ce serait vraiment d’aller de la parole à l’acte. C’est facile de dire qu’on respecte la démocratie, mais de le faire, ce serait de respecter ce que le député de Timmins–James Bay a dit et de donner la parole aux gens.

Je me rends compte que c’est l’heure de me taire. Je vous remercie, monsieur le Président. Ça m’a fait plaisir d’ajouter ma voix à ce débat. Merci.

Debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I thank the speaker from Nickel Belt. Since it is almost 10:15, this House is recessed until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1014 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Mr. Victor Fedeli: We have several guests with us in the members’ gallery today: Chief Sara Mainville; Chief Patricia Big George; Mayor Roy Avis; Reeve Mike Hammond; Reeve Peter Van Heyst; Reeve Gary Gamsby; Councillor Dave Bruyere; Dan Kelly from Onigaming First Nation; and former page Mira Donaldson and her father, Guy Donaldson.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: It’s my pleasure to introduce some folks we were with this morning at the Breakfast Club of Canada. First, Susan Wright—she’s the Ontario director for Breakfast Club of Canada; Trish Starling, the program and projects coordinator; and, last but not least, John O’Leary from Coca-Cola Canada. Thank you for your sponsorship.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: It’s my pleasure to introduce some family here today: my wife’s brother Rob; his wife, Jenn Aylsworth; and my beautiful nieces Izzy and Livy Aylsworth. Welcome to the Legislature.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: I would like to welcome for the first time to Queen’s Park, Michael Smulders, a former constituent of mine from Windsor–Tecumseh who is now living in the riding of Willowdale. Welcome to Queen’s Park, Michael.

Mrs. Laura Albanese: I have two introductions to make. First of all, we have here today three members of Renée Grenaway’s family. Renée is a page from Davenport. I’d like to welcome Renée’s mother, Sandra Grenaway; her great-aunt Joyce Barteck; and her grandfather Wayne Bradey. They are sitting in the members’ gallery and I want to welcome them to Queen’s Park.

And I would be remiss if I didn’t welcome and salute my uncle John Albanese, councillor for the city of Fort Frances, whom I spot here in the members’ gallery.

Mr. Jim McDonell: It’s my pleasure to welcome grandmother to page Callum, Susan Robertson, his aunt Megan Robertson and cousin Leanne Marchand. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Sarah Campbell: Today is a very special day. We have a number of people from the Rainy River district in my riding. Here we have mayors, chiefs, councillors and other delegates who are with us, including John Albanese; Dennis Allen; Gordon Armstrong; Patrick Giles; town of Fort Frances mayor Roy Avis; Big Island First Nation Chief Patricia Big George; Wendy Brunetta; David Bruyere; Jim Cumming; Guy Donaldson; and Mira Donaldson, a former page here.

We have Tannis Drysdale; Gary Gamsby; Geoff Gillon; Andrew Hallikas; Mike Hammond; Brenda Jodoin; Dan Kelly; Anthony Leek; Couchiching First Nation Chief Sara Mainville; town of Fort Frances CAO Mark McCaig; Ken Perry; Paul Ryan; Peter Van Heyst; Rick Weidenhoeft; Mike Willick; and Clayton Windigo. Welcome almost all of the Rainy River district to Queen’s Park today.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Is there anyone left?

Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, and Research and Innovation.

Hon. Reza Moridi: It’s a great pleasure to welcome representatives from Contact North, Ontario’s distance education and training network: Paul Taillefer, chair of the board of directors; Maxim Jean-Louis, president and CEO; and also Craig Brockwell, director for business development. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mrs. Julia Munro: I’m pleased to be able to welcome Jeanene White and Anna Malcolm, who are mother and grandmother of page captain Jamie White, here today to observe their daughter and granddaughter as page captain.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Northumberland–Quinte West.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Thank you, Speaker. You were looking over there. Is it here? I guess it’s me.

It gives me great pleasure to introduce some folks from the Golden Horseshoe Food and Farming Alliance: Jim Brandle, Vineland Research and Innovation Centre; Peter Lambrick, farmer, Halton region; Allan Thompson, mayor of the town of Caledon; Michael Wolfson, staff, city of Toronto; Kim Empringham, farmer, York region; Kathy Macpherson, Friends of the Greenbelt Foundation; and Vicky McGrath and Melanie Williams.

On behalf of them, I would like to invite everybody to room 228-230 for a taste of the Golden Horseshoe from 12:30 to 1:30. Welcome.

Mr. Ted Arnott: Today, we welcome students from the Holy Cross Catholic school in Georgetown. As the Minister of Education knows, a new Holy Cross Catholic school in Georgetown is the number one capital priority for the Halton Catholic District School Board.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: It’s my pleasure today to welcome a special guest here at the Legislature, Ron Elliot—he is the regional vice-president of OPSEU—and his guests. I want to say thank you for coming today, and good to see you.

Mr. Arthur Potts: It gives me pleasure to introduce Jamie Reaume of the Holland Marsh Growers’ Association and Mary Fragedakis, who was recently re-elected as my city councillor. They’re also here with the Golden Horseshoe Food and Farming Alliance. Welcome, all.

Miss Monique Taylor: I would like to welcome Ron Elliot’s guest, Eddy Almeida, who lives in my riding. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Jeff Leal: I noticed in the Speaker’s gallery today one of our former, very distinguished members, Steve Peters.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): If you’ll bear with me, I have a few introductions to do. With us in the Speaker’s gallery, we have some former colleagues of mine in the field of education—retired principals and guests—Pat Degelman, Frank Degelman, Rosemary Prohaska, Janet Teakle, Ed Horvath, Stephanie Roung, and young Carter Roung, who always beats his grandpa at golf. Please stand.

Applause.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. We also have in the Speaker’s gallery Errol Grundy; Nathan’s grandfather from Brantford, who is my former EA. Thank you.

We also have in the Speaker’s gallery His Excellency Raoul Delcorde, the Ambassador of Belgium to Canada. Please welcome our ambassador.

We also have in the Speaker’s gallery—I’ve gone through a lot of tea today. We also have in the Speaker’s gallery Mr. Chris Collins, recently elected Speaker, on October 24, of the Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick. Welcome, Chris.

And we have, from the riding of Elgin–Middlesex–London, from the 37th, 38th, 39th—and Speaker of the 39th Parliament—Mr. Steve Peters.

I thank all of our guests.

It’s now time for question period.

Oral Questions

Ontario economy

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Good morning, Speaker. My question is for the Premier. Good morning, Premier. You and I both attended the Ontario Economic Summit in Niagara recently. At that conference, the Ontario Chamber of Commerce released an alarming assessment of your government’s performance. Their guide, titled How Bad Is It?, confirms Ontario has an unsustainable structural deficit. They confirm that “Ontario’s fiscal situation is becoming increasingly dire.”

The chamber’s report says interest payments will “further crowd out ... capacity to spend on programs” like health, education and transportation.

Premier, will your fall economic statement continue to show your deficit of ideas, your deficit of action and your deficit of hope, or will it address what the chamber says is “a clear case for urgency”?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I appreciate the question from the member opposite. Given the tone and tenor of the question, I’m sure he is very, very pleased to know that on my recent trip to China, we have come back with $1-billion worth of investments for Ontario and 1,800 jobs, Mr. Speaker. I’m sure he’s very pleased about that.

We know that there is an urgent situation in Ontario. We know, and we ran on a plan that addresses that urgency. We ran on a plan that makes the investments that we know are necessary; that sets up the partnerships; that allows for the growth that we know is necessary; and, as part of that plan, there is a global trade strategy that allows us to bring investment to Ontario in order to grow, as we know we need to, to deal with the structural issues that we face.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Premier, the chamber’s annual survey shows business confidence in Ontario is eroding. And here’s what else they had to say: The number of businesses who believe Ontario is restoring the fiscal balance is down; investing in innovation and competitiveness, down; in building a modern workforce, down. A perfect example of Liberal mismanagement is one of the chamber’s key priorities, the Ring of Fire. Last week, the CEO of Cliffs resources said there is “zero hope” this massive economic opportunity will happen. He cited your lack of leadership and lack of a plan as the reasons why.

Premier, the chamber says you need to “fundamentally change” what you’re doing. Will you?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: It’s interesting, because as I have had the opportunity to work with Premier Couillard in Quebec—we have been talking about the similarities between the Ring of Fire investment and the potential for that and our commitment to infrastructure in the Ring of Fire—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Kitchener–Waterloo, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —and the Plan Nord that is in place in Quebec. As we had the opportunity to speak with investors and with businesses in China, who are looking at both Quebec and Ontario as vitally important places to invest, I actually see that there’s a very different picture that we paint of the future for Ontario, and that’s premised on the reality that right now—

Mr. John Yakabuski: You paint a picture, but it’s not selling well.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Renfrew, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —we are the number one jurisdiction for foreign direct investment. The member opposite may think that it is to the advantage of his constituents to talk Ontario down. I don’t agree, Mr. Speaker. I think we focus on our strengths and we build this province.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: You brought Ontario down, Premier. The Ontario Chamber of Commerce isn’t the only group of job creators who are sounding the alarm. The Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters released a survey showing 60% of their members do not believe your government is supporting investment and growth. They say high energy costs, the highest in North America—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Deputy House leader, come to order.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: —and skilled-labour shortages make it difficult to compete and develop new markets. They cite the weak financial situation that you’ve created as a major challenge.

Premier, our job creators want a signal from you that things are going to change for the better. But you continue to ignore them. We are committed here on this side to creating the conditions to make Ontario first. Premier, why aren’t you?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: It is completely understandable that this member, who is a former PC finance critic, would want to distance himself from his policy of cutting 100,000 jobs. It’s completely understandable.

But let’s just look at the facts. Ontario’s tax system is one of the most competitive in the OECD. Ontario is the first destination for direct foreign investment in North America, Mr. Speaker. We are number one in terms of direct foreign investment. Seven out of 10 of the world’s largest technology companies are conducting research and development right here in Ontario. I take no lessons from the member opposite in terms of what we need to do to grow this economy. Cutting 100,000—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Ten-second wrap-up.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Creating a Jobs and Prosperity Fund; building transit and infrastructure—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Dufferin–Caledon, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —partnering with business: Those are the things that we are doing. They are bearing fruit, they are bearing success. I hope the member opposite will join the party.

Municipalities

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My next question is also for the Premier. As the former mayor of the city of North Bay, I have spoken strongly about the role of local governments. Last week’s municipal elections provide a fresh start to put local governments at the centre of the issues that affect them. The new mayors and councillors need to look beyond their cities and towns, because things you do here affect them at home. When you bring an aviation fuel tax, they lose jobs at home. When you bring a pension tax, their chambers tell us that 53% of their businesses are going to fire people to pay for it. The decisions you make with no consultation with local governments are hurting communities.

Will you continue to say you’ll consult, only to surprise them with a new bill, Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Well, Mr. Speaker, there’s probably—I’m going to make a generalization here, but I think there’s probably not a government that has spent more time consulting with local leadership. On a monthly basis—a monthly basis—the ministry, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and ministers across this government sit down with leadership from the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. They talk about the issues that the municipalities are bringing forward; they talk about legislation that is coming forward. In terms of consultation, we work very, very closely with municipalities.

I would just say that many of us are here on this side of the House because the people on that side of the House were part of a government that imposed downloading of costs and imposed amalgamations with nary a word to the leadership in municipalities. We’ve gone quite in the opposite direction.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Premier, I know that the facts hurt. You passed the Far North Act without listening—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Aboriginal Affairs is warned.

Finish, please.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: You passed the Far North Act without listening to mayors and First Nation chiefs, and as predicted, 80% of the mills are now closed. You say one thing, but you do the opposite. You formed the Ring of Fire Development Corp. with no First Nations on board. You say one thing; you do the other.

Today, there are mayors, chiefs and citizens from the Rainy River district here. They chartered a plane and had to hold a media conference to get their message out because they know you’re not listening. They’re here with a message: It’s about forestry. But instead of listening to the mayors and chiefs, you hastily scheduled a news conference at the same time as theirs. Premier, is that your idea of leadership?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’m very glad that the delegation is here and I know that my ministers are going to be meeting with them.

In terms of consultation, specifically, the member opposite raised the issue of the Ring of Fire. In fact, we have worked very, very closely with the Matawa First Nations to make sure that there is a framework agreement in place, to make sure that First Nations are part of the consultation and the discussion all the way along.

The member opposite knows full well that the development corporation that has been set up has been set up as an entity that is now going to bring the partners on board to be part of that development corporation. I would say it is irresponsible for the member opposite to frame or to characterize the development corporation in any other way. It is an entity that is designed to bring in the partners—the private sector, the First Nations, the federal government—to work towards the development of the Ring of Fire, and he knows that.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville, come to order.

Final supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Premier, you say you will consult, but you don’t. You surprised Ontario with the closure of 10 provincial parks—again, no consultation. Tourists travelled elsewhere; communities took the hit. Realizing the impact, local municipalities offered to operate the sites themselves, and it worked. Had you only talked openly about your plans in advance and consulted them, there would have been no loss of revenue.

Today you have got chiefs and mayors here, because you continue to create problems for them when they have the solutions. By dealing openly with municipal governments and First Nations, we can make Ontario first. They’re right here, Premier. Will you meet with them, or will you continue to say one thing and do the opposite?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I have already said that my ministers are going to be meeting with this delegation. It’s very important to me that we have this conversation and that we understand exactly what is going on in all of the communities across the province.

That’s why, during the election, I was in the north a lot, compared to the Leader of the Opposition, who didn’t go north of Barrie. I have made it my business, both as a minister and as Premier, to go to the north to make sure that I engage with municipalities.

But I go back to my first point: We deal with and work with, on a regular basis, the leadership in municipalities from across this province. Ministers attend the meetings of the local groups. We have an ongoing and monthly discussion with the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. We are engaged fully in finding solutions to the challenges that municipalities are confronting. The member opposite knows that, and he should be taking

part in those consultations with us.

Privatization of public assets

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Premier. Page 46 of Hydro One’s management report released this February shows that their distribution network brings in $452 million in before-tax profits.

My question is a simple one, Speaker: Why is the Premier planning to privatize a public asset that serves 1.3 million customers and puts hundreds of millions of dollars in the provincial bank account annually?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, let’s just go back to the premise of the question. The premise of the question that the leader of the third party is asking is that we should never look at the assets that are owned by the people of Ontario and determine whether they are working to the best advantage of the people of Ontario. I just disagree with that premise. I think it’s very important that, on a regular basis, we look at those assets and we make sure that they are working.

I made it clear when Ed Clark, who was the expert who was looking, with his team, at these assets—I made it clear that we wanted to retain those assets in the hands of the public, and we are doing that, and that is their advice to us.

But should we look at how they can work better? Should we look at them as a package and figure out how to optimize their value? Absolutely, we should, Mr. Speaker. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Hydro One’s distribution business puts money in the provincial bank account, every single year, that goes into hospitals, schools, all kinds of front-line services for the people of this province.

Not only will privatizing Hydro One’s local distribution assets cut out a source of revenue, but it will push up the bills. That means everyone from local homeowners to businesses will see their electricity costs go up.

Privatizing electricity generation made hydro bills more expensive. Privatizing distribution will do exactly the same thing. So why does the Premier think that ratepayers should be paying more just to pad the profit margins of private energy companies?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Actually, the leader of the third party once again has got it wrong, because the parameters that we gave to Mr. Clark were that the revenue stream that is already in place either needed to stay in place or needed to be enhanced, because we recognize—as she does, I suppose—that it’s very important that that revenue that comes into the provincial coffers and is used for services to the people of Ontario remain whole.

If the leader of the third party chose to read the whole speech that Mr. Clark gave and look at the whole interim report, which will come out, she will see that the integrity of those revenue streams is whole, that there is an offset for that revenue that she’s proposing, and that in fact the effects on the rate base will not be negative and will actually help people across the province.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, the more you look at the Liberal plan, the less it makes sense. The Premier is privatizing an asset that brings in hundreds of millions of dollars annually, and they’re ignoring the lessons of history.

Privatizing electricity generation made hydro bills more expensive, not cheaper. Privatizing distribution is going to do exactly the same thing.

Will the Premier admit that her plan to privatize Hydro One’s distribution assets will cost everyone, from homeowners to businesses, in terms of higher bills?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I would ask the leader of the third party if she, then, does not agree with her member for Timiskaming–Cochrane, who has written that the Minister of Energy should encourage the OPA to renew the contract for private power that’s generated in his own riding. I would also ask the member opposite, the leader of the third party, to explain whether she disagrees with her government’s policy, when they were in office, when they signed nine private power generating contracts.

The reality is that we have asked experts to look at the assets that are owned by the people of Ontario. We have said that we prefer—that we believe that those should be kept in the hands of the people of Ontario, but can they be optimized? Can we do better in terms of the value of those assets? We believe we can, Mr. Speaker, and that’s exactly what we’re going to do.

Forest industry

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I asked the Premier to look at history’s lessons, Speaker; that’s what I asked the Premier to look at.

My next question, in fact, is for the Premier. The kraft mill in Fort Frances is at a critical point as we sit in this Legislature right now. If the mill gets purchased, it will create 1,000 jobs in that community. If the mill doesn’t get purchased, the current owner will stop winterizing it and the mill may be lost forever.

By doing nothing, the Premier will kill 1,000 jobs. My question is: Why is this Premier putting the interests of one company ahead of 1,000 people in the northwest?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know that the Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry is going to want to speak to the specifics, but I want to just say that our government has maintained open lines of communication with the town of Fort Frances since Resolute announced that they would be idling their Fort Frances operations. There has been a continuous engagement. Obviously, we’re disappointed that this particular arrangement hasn’t worked out, but that doesn’t mean that we are abandoning the process. It doesn’t mean that we are abandoning the community.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Timmins–James Bay, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We will continue to work with the community. We will continue to work for solutions. The minister is engaged in that on a regular basis, and I believe the leader of the third party knows that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, the Crossroute Forest is a crown resource. Communities in the northwest are making a simple request: to ensure that forests in the region are sustainably managed to create jobs in the region. With the stroke of a pen, the minister can convert the sustainable forestry licence to an enhanced sustainable forestry licence so that the community and companies manage that forest together, but the minister has said that nothing is going to happen until 2016.

That is going to be far too late for Fort Frances. Will the Premier make a commitment right here and now to take action today?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry.

Hon. Bill Mauro: I thank the member for the question.

Speaker, the premise of the question is that if an enhanced sustainable forest licence was in place today, if those discussions had started a year ago—and quite frankly, if they had started a year ago, I still think it’s unlikely that one would have been in place today, because the four priority areas that are being worked on still do not have one in place today.

But even if it had been in place, there is no guarantee—and the people from Fort Frances are aware of this—that that in any way would have facilitated a deal, a private sector deal, between two forestry companies.

MNRF staff and MNDM staff were at the table guiding the process, but at the end of the day, this was very clearly a business-to-business relationship. Fundamental to all of this is that the mill is owned privately. The company is not in bankruptcy; they own the mill, they own the asset. Clearly, they’re fundamental to any deal coming together on this file.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The people of Ontario, the crown, own the forest. That’s the point.

Communities across the Rainy River district are asking this Premier and this government to take action. The town of Fort Frances is asking this Premier and this government to take action. Local First Nations are asking this Premier and this government to take action. The Northwestern Ontario Municipal Association is asking this Premier and this government to take action. There are people in the galleries here today representing the Rainy River district, and they are asking this Premier and this government to take action. New Democrats are asking this Premier and this government to take action.

Will the Premier finally agree to take immediate action to create 1,000 much-needed jobs in Fort Frances?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Minister?

Hon. Bill Mauro: Speaker, thank you. You know, the member is right: We do own the forests, but what she doesn’t acknowledge is that the system of tenure that exists today is the system that was put in place by the NDP in 1994. Forest tenure today is the system that they put in place in 1994 under the Crown Forest Sustainability Act. Our tenure modernization in 2011 has begun the process of moving away from that tenure model.

First of all, unfortunately, it’s not my belief or anybody’s belief that 1,000 jobs would be created. There would be significant job creation if the mill were to reopen, but it wouldn’t be 1,000 jobs. I’m not sure where that number is coming from.

Having said that, I understand completely the emotion that is attached to this decision. We have forestry companies in Thunder Bay. We live the recession, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines and myself. We know how important it is. We will continue to work and do anything that we can to try and facilitate something positive at the Fort Frances mill and Thunder Bay.

Sexual harassment

Ms. Laurie Scott: My question is for the Premier. Premier, it has been 24 hours since I asked you to strike an all-party select committee to study sexual harassment in the workplace. Yesterday, you talked about being open to conversations and the need to be vigilant, but those are all vacant words with no commitment to action. What better way to demonstrate that this is a serious issue than by agreeing today to strike an all-party select committee to study sexual harassment in the workplace? Premier, when can we expect your decision on this matter?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: In that 24 hours, I have actually taken some action. What I did was I spoke with the head of the OPS to determine exactly what procedures and protocols were in place. I have that information. I’m happy to share that with the member opposite. People need to know that there is a workplace discrimination and harassment policy in place that addresses prevention and reporting, a policy that also deals with violence in the workplace. That is within the framework of the legislation that is in place and the Human Rights Code.

The other thing that I did was I checked within our own Liberal caucus to make sure that the policies were in place, and there is, in fact, a policy for harassment and a violence-free workplace that applies to our Liberal caucus. I’d be very interested in the House leaders actually having a discussion about what’s in place in the other caucuses.

I think this is an issue that affects every single one of us. We need to make sure that the OPS, the private sector, our own caucuses and the Legislative Assembly have protocols in place, because I believe that this goes way beyond one incident—one person in one media outlet. This is a societal issue. This is a culture-of-the-workplace issue. I’d be happy to talk to the member opposite about that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Laurie Scott: Premier, this is a serious issue. We don’t want you to play politics with it. Today, I did send letters to the House leaders to stress the importance of the issue and to formally request that we move forward with the all-party select committee to study sexual harassment in the workplace.

Now, yesterday, I brought to your government’s attention again, for the second time, the issue involving an assistant crown attorney who was allowed to resign and given a one year’s salary bonus rather than the Attorney General—your own Attorney General in your government—investigating the workplace harassment complaint made against him. You talk about policies. The problem is occurring under your own roof.

Premier, will I be receiving an affirmative response to my request for an all-party select committee today?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I think the member opposite knows perfectly well that I can’t comment on a particular case, and she keeps raising that one case.

But here’s what I believe about this issue, Mr. Speaker. I believe that this issue affects every single member of our society. I believe that no matter where we work, no matter where we live, we have to take action ourselves. We have legislative frameworks; we have regulatory frameworks. We have policies, and I am in the process of making sure that those policies are in place across government.

But the reality is that if every one of us in this House doesn’t look to our own practice and doesn’t look to our own colleagues and take responsibility for our own actions, then we will not make the cultural changes necessary.

I’m saying to the member opposite that I’m going to ask my House leader to raise this issue, to make sure that across this House, we have the correct—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

Forest industry

Ms. Sarah Campbell: To the Premier: Today, over 30 elected officials from municipalities and First Nation communities across the Rainy River district have travelled 1,800 kilometres and are here at Queen’s Park to tell the Premier what her government should have already done, which is take leadership of the Crossroute Forest so that the Fort Frances kraft mill can reopen and put people back to work. They are literally fighting for the future of the Rainy River district.

Premier, this is a needless problem that has a very simple solution. We have a mill, we have more than enough wood, and we have a potential buyer. All we need to make this deal happen is for your government to reallocate this wood and tell Expera, the potential buyer, that we want their business. Premier, will you do that today?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry.

Hon. Bill Mauro: Once again, the premise of the question is that if there was an enhanced sustainable forest licence in place, a deal could have been consummated between the two parties. Speaker, I personally don’t believe that that would have guaranteed anything. It doesn’t mean we’re not trying to work in that regard.

What I would say to the member is that security of supply was not the issue. There was a supply agreement offered to the—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: You can’t finance yourself without the wood.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Timmins–James Bay will come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): For the second time, the member from Timmins–James Bay will come to order—last time.

Finish, please.

Hon. Bill Mauro: There was a supply agreement offered to the company that was interested in purchasing the facility of 740,000 cubic metres per year. That’s allowed under the terms of the existing sustainable forest licence, so security of tenure was not at issue.

The enhanced sustainable forestry licence piece, once again, would not necessarily have guaranteed anything. The mill is privately owned, and that’s where it sits today. We still continue to look for opportunities on behalf of the community of Fort Frances.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Sarah Campbell: This is not a business-to-business problem as the Minister of Natural Resources states. The only business-to-business dealings that are being made pertain to the physical mill structure. The biggest holdup to this deal is the wood allocation, wood that belongs to the people of this province. This wood doesn’t belong to a company. It is our wood, and it should be used to keep our local people working.

Premier, you can fix this problem with the stroke of a pen. We have three weeks to get this right before the mill assets are damaged by not being heated this winter. Premier, will you fix this injustice for the people of Fort Frances and put our deserving town back to work before it’s too late?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Bill Mauro: Once again, I fundamentally disagree. It was a business-to-business deal that was trying to be negotiated between someone who privately owns a mill and someone who was trying to purchase, potentially, the mill and get other assets to reopen the facility.

MNRF staff and MNDM staff were there at the table, guiding the process only. It was not our deal to be made. We were trying to do what we could to help.

I would say to the member, and to the members of the third party who are interested in thinking that the eSFL process would have necessarily guaranteed a deal, that today, currently, in the member’s riding, there are companies that want to see an SFL put in place for their particular operation so that they can reopen and create more jobs in the member’s community.

There is no perfect system when it comes to tenure. We’ve made a commitment through legislation to move forward with modernization. That is occurring. But at the end of the day, it does not guarantee that we can land a deal between a business and a business. That is, unfortunately, the reality.

School breakfast programs

Mr. Arthur Potts: My question is to the Minister of Education. We all know that a nutritious breakfast is critical to the success of every child’s development. Eating a healthy breakfast has lasting physical, mental health and educational benefits.

This morning, the Minister of Education and the Minister of Children and Youth Services joined St. Joseph’s College students for a nutritious start to their day. The minister also helped Breakfast Club of Canada, along with a corporate sponsor, Minute Maid, celebrate the 500th Ontario Breakfast Club opening this year. A healthy morning meal is now guaranteed to 90,000 students in Ontario schools, nearly 30,000 of them in the Toronto region.

Minister, can you let this House know what today’s announcement entailed and how we are ensuring that all children have access to a healthy and nutritious breakfast?

Hon. Liz Sandals: Thank you to the member from Beaches–East York for his interest in this very important issue.

Speaker, it’s a top priority for this government to ensure that students are starting off their day with the support they need to succeed, and that includes breakfast.

The Breakfast Club of Canada was founded on the belief that every child has the right to succeed in life and, most of all, have safe and reliable access to food. A healthy breakfast helps with better student attendance, increased physical activity, increased self-esteem and improved memory and cognition.

Together with the Breakfast Club, across Ontario, we have reached over 90,000 students, and this year, 500 schools, and 13,567,525 breakfasts have been served—and we were very pleased, with our partners Breakfast Club and Minute Maid, to serve more this morning.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Arthur Potts: This is a very exciting milestone and announcement you made today. I can tell you the success of the program is a priority for my constituents in the riding of Beaches–East York.

The club now has over 80 schools in the city of Toronto alone. In my ri500thding of Beaches–East York, two schools take

part in this excellent program.

We know that the benefits of the Breakfast Clubs go far beyond the school walls. Evidence shows that schools with programs see improvements in attendance and punctuality, as well as in behaviour and concentration, and they help turn young people into better citizens.

Minister, can you please tell us how our government is helping to support the Breakfast Club with their initiative to provide nutritious breakfasts to students across Ontario?

Hon. Liz Sandals: The Minister of Children and Youth Services.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: It was great to be at the 500th opening of Breakfast Club of Canada. Minister Sandals was pouring the milk; I was pouring the juice and handing the fruit out. It’s good to know we have other jobs if we need them. It is a really great program, and thanks to our partners for making that happen.

Our government, as you know, Speaker, announced an investment of $32 million over the next three years as part of our five-year plan to expand and enhance our Student Nutrition Program, and an additional $10.3 million will be invested in the program this year and next. So the total funding is $31 million. That’s 340 new breakfast programs. It is to establish programs where there are higher needs, so it’s very focused—56,000 more children. It’s fantastic. We’re committed to making sure that students in Ontario start their day off right.

Public sector accountability

Mr. Monte McNaughton: My question this morning is to the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and International Trade. Minister, as you know, the role of the Fairness Commissioner is to make sure that everyone who is qualified to practise in a regulated profession can get a licence to practise here in the province of Ontario.

We have learned that in the last 15 months, the Fairness Commissioner, Jean Augustine, has expensed over $3,400 in limousine rides to Ontario’s taxpayers. Nothing is too small for this government’s appointee to expense. On a flight to Halifax, she even billed taxpayers $3.40 for her airplane headphones. Clearly, the eHealth and Pan Am style of entitlement is alive and well in this ministry.

Minister, why are you allowing the Fairness Commissioner these entitlements at taxpayers’ expense—or do you agree with them?

Hon. Michael Chan: Thank you very much for the question. The Ontario fairness commission is an arm’s-length agency of the Ministry of Citizenship, Immigration and International Trade. We have no involvement in the day-to-day operations of her office.

The government of Ontario has a number of rules and regulations regarding expense accounts put in place to protect the people of Ontario—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Are you washing your hands of it? Are you suggesting you have no oversight?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Dufferin–Caledon, come to order.

Hon. Michael Chan: —and promote fairness across all levels of government, including agencies. We expect everyone to adhere to these rules, particularly those in a position of authority, whom we expect to set a positive example for others to follow.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: Back to the minister: Minister, you should also know that while on a $6,300 trip to Finland last September, this appointee made taxpayers cover the cost of a personal sightseeing tour. We all know that the Fairness Commissioner was appointed in exchange for giving up her seat to the failed federal Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff.

This government talks about transparency, yet the only way we were able to learn about this shocking abuse of public money was through a freedom of information request. It doesn’t seem like the Fairness Commissioner is being very fair to taxpayers in this province.

Minister, will you order her to post her expenses online, or are you going to continue to allow her to abuse taxpayers’ dollars by expensing limo rides, airplane headphones and sightseeing tours?

Hon. Michael Chan: Again, the Office of the Fairness Commissioner is an arm’s-length agency of the government of Ontario. However, like all agencies, under the agency accountability and establishment directive, it must comply with the guidelines set out in the travel, meal and hospitality expenses directive and other spending guidelines.

These guidelines have been communicated to the Office of the Fairness Commissioner. The Fairness Commissioner has a mandate to ensure that the regulated professions in Ontario have practices that are transparent, objective and fair when determining who is allowed to practise in these professions. The office is accountable for using government funds with effectiveness and economy for the purpose of fulfilling this mandate.

Sexual harassment

Ms. Peggy Sattler: My question is to the Premier. The last few months have shown that sexual violence for women and impunity for powerful men remains a reality in Ontario.

Today, we learned that doctors can sexually assault women during examinations and return to practise medicine without requiring the college of physicians to inform the police. And if you are a crown attorney facing sexual harassment allegations, the government will give you double your annual salary as severance; all you have to do is resign.

Can the government explain what it will do to end this culture of impunity and create an Ontario where sexual harassment and sexual assault allegations are taken seriously and acted upon?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: As I have already indicated in response to a couple of other questions, this is something that I and our government take very, very seriously, as I hope everyone in this Legislature takes it seriously. Whether it’s at work or at home or in the community, whether it’s public service or private sector, we all have to be vigilant in terms of our practice.

There are rules and regulations in place. In fact, in 2009, our government actually brought in changes to strengthen the Occupational Health and Safety Act to address workplace violence and harassment.

We will continue to monitor the legislation and the rules, but I would say to the member opposite that I think it goes beyond that. I think it goes beyond the frameworks that are in place, that have to continually be improved. We have to look to our own practice, to our own communities and to our own workplaces, and make sure that we have the practices and behaviours in place in those places that keep ourselves and our colleagues safe.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Peggy Sattler: Beyond monitoring, there are specific ways this government could address violence and harassment faced by women now.

For example, yesterday we heard that some journalism students were warned against internships at Q with Jian Ghomeshi. We know that interns are vulnerable. They fear reprisals or damage to their careers if they report inappropriate or even illegal conduct by their employers. I’ve tabled a bill that would allow interns to anonymously report inappropriate conduct.

This is one simple measure the government can take now, but much more needs to be done to make violence prevention an all-of-government priority.

Will this government move immediately to update Ontario’s Sexual Violence Action Plan to include real goals, real funding and real progress so that it offers real protection for women today?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister responsible for women’s issues.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: As the Premier said, sexual violence—and abuse of any kind—is a very serious issue. We all take it seriously. I find it completely unacceptable, and it is something that we all have to think about here in the Legislature, in workplaces and beyond, because sexual violence has a devastating impact.

We have many initiatives and programs. We have a $15-million Sexual Violence Action Plan. We also have additional money to support sexual assault centres.

I want to say here what I said outside the House, Speaker: If people are facing abuse, I encourage them to go to the authorities if they can. I encourage them to go to support groups if they can. I encourage them to go to their unions if they can.

There are many protections. Interns are covered by the Human Rights Code and employer policies. There are many, many progressive policies in workplaces that require employers to respond to formal and informal complaints of abuse. It’s something we all have to take seriously. We’re working on it, and we will continue to invest in this.

Assistance to flood victims

Ms. Eleanor McMahon: My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. On August 4, extreme flooding hit my riding of Burlington as well as areas in the riding of my colleague the member from Halton.

The city of Burlington received nearly 200 millimeters of rain in five hours. That is equal to the total rainfall usually received in the months of July and August. This flash flood caused damage to more than 3,000 homes throughout Burlington.

In August, Burlington city council passed a resolution requesting assistance under the private component of ODRAP for assistance to individuals for essential expenses not otherwise covered by insurance. The city of Burlington has been working together with Halton region to help the people of Burlington affected by this natural disaster.

Mr. Speaker, I am so proud of the community spirit that has flourished throughout Burlington as a result of this extremely successful fundraising on behalf of those who need it most.

Minister, will you please provide an update on the status of Burlington’s application?

Hon. Ted McMeekin: I want to thank the member from Burlington and also the member from Halton for keeping our ministry apprised of what has been going on there, and the tremendous community efforts.

I know how difficult it is for communities to try to deal with disasters. In that context, it’s our government’s first priority to ensure that residents are made safe in the event of a disaster.

ODRAP is provided to communities where damages exceed the financial resources of the affected individuals and municipalities. In the case of Burlington, the most severe damage was felt by individuals. When reimbursing individuals, ODRAP’s role is to ensure that essential needs, like access to housing, food, medical response and heating, are met.

I look forward to being kept apprised and, hopefully, we will have some news soon on the application.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Halton.

Ms. Indira Naidoo-Harris: I, too, saw the extensive flood damage and felt the frustration of my constituents living in the Burlington part of my community. I knocked on residents’ doors with officials assessing the devastation, and saw first-hand the widespread destruction in some neighbourhoods: flooded basements, waterlogged furniture and garbage bags full of ruined clothing. Perhaps most memorable, though, were the stories of loss and the looks of despair on people’s faces as they dealt with the flood destruction.

Confusion often surrounds the decisions which designate some communities eligible for ODRAP and denies others this assistance. Eligibility requirements are dependent on the particular characteristics of a given disaster event, and this can lead to assumptions that the program is inconsistently administered. The length of time required for provincial funds to flow is also under scrutiny.

Mr. Speaker, how does the minister plan to respond to the many questions that often surround the Ontario Disaster Relief Assistance Program?

Hon. Ted McMeekin: Speaker, I certainly agree with the member’s observation that our climate is changing. In fact, perhaps, a little-known fact: 28% of all insurance claims settled today are categorized as a response to a catastrophic weather event.

Her thoughtful comments and her hard work have led us to do exactly what my mandate letter calls me to do, and that’s to look at ODRAP and review it, to make sure it meets the needs of local communities who experience disasters. I continue to welcome input from all members of the House in that regard.

We’re going to examine the findings of our formal review, scheduled for completion next spring. Hopefully as a result of that we’ll be in a better position to help communities experiencing climate change disasters.

Air ambulance service

Mr. Bill Walker: My question is to the Premier. Ever since four Ornge crew members regrettably died, the Ontario public has been looking to you to do two specific things: (1) stop denying the facts; and (2) start accepting responsibility.

Yesterday, your Deputy Premier told a CBC reporter that she did not know about the problems at Ornge until October 2011. May I remind you that on May 3, 2011, the Ontario Air Transport Association sent her a five-page letter alerting her to the egregious concerns at Ornge and urging her to act as rapidly as possible. We have now learned that her response to them was, “I’m too busy to discuss Ornge.”

Premier, your deputy hasn’t been truthful. She said she didn’t know before October 2011, but her reply to the air transport association letter proves differently.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m going to caution the member and ask him to withdraw that one comment, please.

Mr. Bill Walker: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Mr. Bill Walker: Premier, will you do the right thing and ask for her resignation today?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know that the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care is going to want to comment on this, but we’ve got new leadership at Ornge—a new CEO. We have a new board of directors and we have a new senior management team at Ornge. It was our Deputy Premier who put those changes in place. She did that.

When the minister and our government learned of the issues coming out of Ornge, we took action. That is the reality. That is what happened and that’s why there are so many changes at Ornge: because this Deputy Premier, when she was Minister of Health, took those actions.

We now have a piece of legislation in front of this House. We hope that the members opposite will support us in getting that legislation passed because it will make further changes in oversight to Ornge. We really do trust that, given the urgency coming from the other side, they will work with us to get that legislation passed as soon as possible.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Bill Walker: Back to the Premier: What the second Ornge report really boils down to is an issue of ministerial and first ministerial responsibility. That’s what this is about. What the public expects and demands is that you and your minister accept responsibility for the mismanagement and boondoggle of Ornge. They want to know if you think it’s appropriate for a minister in these circumstances to have not just stayed on but to have been also promoted.

Just a few minutes ago in this House, Premier, you asked for responsibility and said that we should all be taking responsibility in this House. As such, I want to know about your standards. How many more people have to die, Premier, before you ask for that minister’s resignation?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: It was nearly two years ago, in fact, when we introduced Bill 11, which was the air ambulance amendment act, to further improve oversight at Ornge. The bill was sent to committee more than a year ago. It was the PCs at that time who refused to allow hearings on that important act. The bill, as we all know, was left on the order paper when both the PCs and the NDP refused to support the budget and forced an election.

Mr. Speaker, we want, as the Premier—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Just come to order.

Finish, please; wrap