VOL. 3 .' THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. THURSDAY, MARCH 22, 1984 NO. 8

March 22,1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair~ MR.SPEAKER (Russ~ll): Tape No. 266 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ah-1 Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I have three short statements which,by agreement with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary), I will read all three and then the Opposition will react to all three at the one time. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House today of the continuing funding of the Ocean Industries Capital Assistance Programme.

The total budget for the 1984-85 fiscal year will be $2.5 million,as announced by my colleague,the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) 1 in his budget addressrindicating an expansion of the programme by $500,000 over the previous year. Funded in total by the Province,OICAP has proven to b~ a most effective financial incentive measure in helping to increase and improve the capabilities, expertise and competitiveness of the Newfoundland Ocean Industries sector.

To date, OICAP grants totaling $2.3 million have been committed to seventeen projects which will have created directly 268 full-time andl64 part-time or seasonal jobs and spurring further private sector investments totalling $12.6 million. It is anticipated that the uncommitted additional funding will create some 175 full-time jobs and 110 part-time or seasonal jobs and could stimulate spending of $10 million by the private sector. 731

March 22,1984 Tape No. 266 ah-2 MR. WINDSOR: The Ocean Industries Capital Assistance Programme is designed to stimulate further development of the Ocean Industries sector by encouraging the expansion and growth of Newfoundland companies and by helping ~o attract new ocean-related, medium and h~gh technology industry to Newfoundland and Labrador. In order to achieve maximum effectiveness, the programme was made complementary to existing federal and provincial programmes.

Eligible applicants include Canadian firms or foreign entities which manufacture products or equipment, or provide technical services in support of commercial and scientific activities for use in or on ·our ocean. Generally, eligibility for assistance is based on the benefits of the proposal to the overall Newfoundland economy, particularly with respect to the maximization of 'value added'. Preference is given to firms owned or controlled by persons normally resident in Newfoundland and Labrador, and to other Canadian or foreign entities who enter into joint ventures with Newfoundland firms.

Financial assistance is in the form of a conditional grant forgiven over a four year period at the rate of 25 per cent per annum. Maximum assistance for eligible manufacturing and service firms is 50 per cent of the approved capital costs, less the amount of assistance available from ·the Department of DRIE, if any, to a maximum OICAP grant of $500,000. 732

March 22, 1984 Tape 267 EC - 1 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, as previously noted, the expansion of this highly successful Ocean Industries Capital Assistance programme is evidence that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is working to develop a strong and healthy ocean industry sector in our Province. The second statement: Mr. Speaker, Government has long recognized the important role which small business plays in the economic develop­ ment and social well-being of our Province.

Over the past several years, we have updertaken a number of initiatives to support and foster the development and evolution of the small business sector. As further evidence of government's continuing efforts to assist this most important sector of the provincial economy, I· am . pleased to comment on the es­ tablishment of the Technical Assistance programme in the Department of Development, as announced by my colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), in his Budget Speech Tuesday past.

The Technical Assistance programme is designed to provide financial support to Newfoundland companies who find it necessary to hire outside professionals to assist in developing business plans and operational strategies. The programme is intended to assist small businesses to initiate actions that should eventually result in such undertakings as improved quality, increased productivity, diversification of product lines, expansion of facilities, establishment of new businesses and job creation. For the fiscal year 1984-85, government has established a fund of $50,000 for the start-up of this programme.

In the case of individual 733

March 22, 1984 Tape 267 EC - 2 MR. WINDSOR: businesses which must hire outside professionals,or otherwise pay for an eligible service rendered, government will pay 50 per cent of the cost incurred to a maximum of $5,000. On the question of eligibility, botr existing and proposed businesses may qualify for assistance under this programme. However, the success of any proposed or potential operation must be clearly demonstrated before government's involvement.

Further, businesses must submit the terms of reference for the work to be undertaken by the outside professional with their request for assistance and before proceeding to employ the professional. A business may avail of this programme only once in this fiscal year. Where possible, proposals based upon the agreed ter~s of reference should be requested from at least three outside professionals. Proposals will be screened by the company and the Department of Development, with the company selection subject to approval by the department.

Proposals '"ill be evaluated on a case by case basis, and the administration of this 734

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 268 MJ - 1 MR. WINDSOR: programme will remain ~s flexible as possible in recognition of the fact that the small business sector is not a homogeneous and that businesses operate in a dynamic environment. Specific programme guidelines will be available shortly and further information can be obtained by contacting the Technical Services Division of the Department of Development. Thirdly: Mr. Speaker, during recent years many of our local companies have suffered a ·crippling erosion in their equity base.

As a result, financial institutions have been reluctant to provide the necessary operating capital required to facilitate optimum levels of operation and companies have been forced to turn to the Province for loan guarantees and other forms of last-resort financial assistance. On the other hand, we have determined that there is a considerable flow of local investment capital out of the Province to opportunities elsewhere in the world. Capital which, given the proper stimulus, could be u~ilized in our Province to create badly needed employment.

This government is fully aware of the importance of a healthy and vibrant local investment climate. My colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), announced during the Budget Speech, several initiatives aimed at achieving this objective. One such initiative is the introduction of a venture capital programme. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to elaborate more fully on this particular programme.

The venture capital programme is designed to encourage private sector participation in providing ris~ capital and management expertise to eligible small businesses within the Province by addressing the need for additional equity capital for the start up of new high risk business ventures as well as the 735

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 268 MJ - 2 MR . WINDSOR: stabilization and expan si on of existing businesses. Equally important, it will also provide a source of management expert .ise in areas such as financialmanagement, marketing and productivity enhancement. The programme will be jo intly promoted by the Department of Development and the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. Public sector funding will be ir.itially limited to $500,000 and the programme will be administered by NLDC . Private investors will be required to incorpo .rate a Venture CapitaJ. Corporation with a minimum paid in equity capital of $25,000 . 736

March 22, 1984 Tape 269 PK - 1 .tJI.R. WINDSOR: Incentives will be provided to the Venture Capital Corporation .in the form of an interest free loan equal to the amount invested in the Corporation by its shareholders. Provincial incentiv-es will o .. ly be provided to new Venture Capital Corporations ·established under this programme and whose investment portfolios are entirely comprised of eligible investments. Provincial incentives will be disbursed to the Venture Capital Corporation when the eligible investment has been finalized.

The Venture Capital Corporation will be required to make independent investments by way of ,a purchase of new equity shares or an unsecured loan in Newfoundland and Labrador companies engaged in business activities which include manufacturing and processing, research and development, tourism, industrial services and transportation. Retail/wholesale businesses, relending, real estate and insurance companies and agents will be excluded.

In addition, eligible investments by the Venture Capital Corporation will be required to maximize employment opportunities and the Corporation will have to maintain an a~slength relationship with the business in which the investment is made. It is our intention to consult with various entrepreneurs in the Province before finalizing the detailed programme guidelines which will be available in the near future. In the meantime, anyone interested in discussing the programme is encouraged to contact the Financial Services Division of the Department of Development. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. 737

March 22, 1984 Tape 269 PK - 2 MR . NEARY : Mr. Sp~aker, with all due respect to the hon . gentleman who just gave us three ministerial statements in one, I do not think I have ever heard so much gobbledygook in my life,since I have been a member of this House . Mr . Speaker, the only thing I can say about the three ministerial statements just made by the hon. gentleman is that all it will do is further his leadership ambitions, and it will be a further drain on the Treasury of the Government of canada . Because, Mr .

Speaker, I do not know if hon. members detectedit, but in the last statement the hon . gentleman made he told us that this particular programme would be administered by the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation . 738

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 270 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I ask hon. gentlemen, who finances the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation? One hundred per cent funding from the Government of Canada. MR. WINDSOR: That is not true. MR. NEARY: One hundred per cent funding from the Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker. MR. WINDSOR: There is no funding this year. That is not true and you know the difference of it. MR. NEARY: I do not know the difference. MR. WINDSOR: You do know the difference and if you do not, you should. MR. NEARY: Because, Mr. Speaker, they gave a year's extension. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh ", oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! l-1R-. WINDSOR: ·-- ·· The cost shared progra:mme was extended and it terminates in eight days. MR. NEARY: It terminates in eight days time. Mr. Speaker, there was a year's extension given to that Newfoundland Development and Loan Corporation . And if the Government of Canada wiped it out I could understand why, Mr. Speaker, because it has been an instrument whereby this administration has been pork barrelling, using federal funds for pork barrellingand political patronage for the last three or four or five years in this Province, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I can onl y say this, that anything, I suppose, of a positive nature, anything, might be helpful to small business and to industry in this Province. But, Mr. Speaker, these programmes that were just announced by the hon. gentleman are a mere drop in the bucket to what is needed to stimulate the Newfoundland and Labrador economy. MR. WINDSOR: r agree. 739

March 22, 1984 , Tape No. 270 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: 'l'he hon. qentleman ackno wJ_ertrres th at. MR. WINDSOR: If we had the same federal/orovj,nC' -i-?1 program ilS they gave Nova s·cotia, we could have done a heck .... ---- - - of a lot more. MR. NEARY.: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman would only go out and sign an offshore agreement and sign an agreement with the Province of Quebec to develop the Lower Churchill and the five rivers in Labrador,and re-open the Upper Churchill contract and get money up front, get revenue immediately, we could develop our natural resources and create jobs. Mr.

Speaker, I think what I would like to see happen I would like to see the Federal Business Development Bank, the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, the Rural Development Authority all merged into one agency, because ri ght now they are at cross purposes. The Feder~l Business Development Bank, in my opinion - MR. WINDSOR: The federal gov ~ rnment wants to break the agreement. MR. NEARY: No, the Federal Business Development Bank, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, in my humble opinion, has not served the purpose for which it was established.

All they have done is establish bistros and cabarets and night clubs and taverns. That is all the Federal Business Development Bank has done. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation is being used for the purpose of pork barrelling. Now they are going to throw in this new programme to utilize federal funds. 740

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 271 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Surely the hon ." minister can do better. He can do better than he jus:t did : MR .. WINDSOR: The provincial capital programme is 100 per cent provincial funds. MR. NEARY: If this is the administration's attempt, their effort, their priorities to revitalize the Newfoundland and Labrador economy, Mr. Speaker, then the only thing that I can say is God help the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. It would not take very much at the moment to push Newfoundland and Labrador over the brink of economic oblivion. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please~ The time for the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has expired. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I hope that · we will get more positive statements in the future. MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.

Power) and I want to direct it to him concerning the Bowater mill in Corner Brook, And I want to tell h~m,when I start off the questions, that in spite of the Premier letting down ~he people of Corner Brook last year when he informed through the House Leader that he had met with the Chairman of the Board of Bowater and when he really had met with some lower person in Bowater, I want to tell him that I do not want in any way to endanger any negotiations that might be ongoing, but what we simply want is a progress report and a confirmation or denial of 741

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 271 NM - 2 MR. TULK: some rumours. The rumours are flying around that negotations are ongoing with Krugar for the purchase of the Bowater mill. Could the minister deny if indeed these neg-otiations are ongoing with Krugar or could he tell us if indeed they are? Are what other companies, if any, are negotiating for the purchase of the Bowater mill? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Just let me say, Mr. Speaker, in response to that question 1and to particularly the

preamble part of it,that the Premier of this Province has been very actively involved with the Bowater situation on a daily, hourly basis since the dileroEa has arisen,and that included not just meeting with the Board of Directors, some people on the board, it means having intensive negotiations and discussions with many of the senior executive of the Bowater Corporation and with senior executives of other companies who may be interested in the Corner Brook situation.

Our policy has been for the last two months or so that we, as a government, and as a divestiture committee that was put in place between ourselves and the Bowater Corporation, that we are not going to make public statements about the negotiating process until we have something of substance to announce. 742

March 22, 1983 Tape 272 EC - 1 MR. POWER: That has certainly put a restriction on the government officials who are on that committee, our consultant that we hired,and the Bowater people who are there. We have a consensus from the advisory committee which has been established in Corner Brook to deal with thi~ problem, a consensus that they will also remain silent. MR. NEARY: '~ou silenced them. MR. POWER: I silenced them •. MR. NEARY: Not you, the Premier. MR. TULK: The Premier told them to shut up. MR.

POWER: I take full blame or full credit for advising the advisory committee that it does no good to the process and no good to the ultimate solution to hav·e it discussed daily in the news media of the Province. They accepted that idea, they concurred with it and, as an advisory committee, they agreed not to make any comments. It has made life very difficult for the persons on the advisory committee who have responsibility, whether they be mayors or union leaders or whether they be involved in the Chambers of Commerce in the area, but they have accepted that responsibility.

Certainly, much to my regret, I noticed comments yesterday which I commented upon; Mr. Jack Marshall's comments as a Senator do not do a single thing to help and assist us, as a divestiture committee, to get that mill sold and get it into the hands of a new operator. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Those kinds of comments are not responsible, they are not fair, and they do nothing except jeopardize a potential sale. In relation to the question asked, 743

March 22, 1984 Tape 272 EC - 2 MR. POWER: yes, there are negotiations taking place with many co.mpanies who are looking. at the Bowater Corporation. Last Fall we set up a divestiture committee which thendid up a new divestiture proposal. After a suggestion by the Newfound·land Government had not been concurred with by Bowaters for about six months, they finally agreed with the process which we wanted 'to put in place in the beginning, which was the right approach. That approach we are now into.

We have met and we have presented the divestiture package to, I would say, maybe over 100 different companies around the world. Several of those companies are very actively interested, and that is about the only comment I or anyone on this government side is going to make about the process itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Companies are interested. There are many conditions and many factors involved which might lead to an ultimate sale and an ultimate new operator.

Those conditions relate to federal, municipal, provincial and union concessions and factors which are certainly beyond our control in any small way. We, ~tr. Speaker, are going to do everything we can to make sure the process is successful. One way to do that is to keep the public comments to a minimum while the process is taking place. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that I or the Premier or the members for the area will be able to announce1sometime in the very near future1that some substantial progress has been made 744

March 22,1984 Tape No. 273 ah-1 MR.POWER: and that we do have persons who have made legitimate, bona fide offers to the Bowater Corporation. To today's date there are no offers on tbe table, no one has made an offer,but negotiations are ongoing. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: to applaud. MR.TULK: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, a · supplementary. Now that is something Yes, that is something. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister will not lay down the,names of any companies that he might be negotiating with,let me ask him this one other question.

Can he tell us here-and he will not in any way endanger negotiations,! can assure him of that - can he tell us how many companies he is negotiating with and could he inform us of a timetable? I understand that the Bowater people say they will sell the mill at the end of the year, they will get out, They will get out at the end of the year. Could he inform us of a timetable for the completion of those negotiations? Does he know, does he have any idea at this time just when those negotiations are going to be completed? He said in a short while. What is a short while, Mr. Speaker?

A short while for this government has been up to two or three years in many cases. Can he .tell us that negotiations will be finished, that the Bowater mill will be sold or purchased by somebody before the end of the current year? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR.POWER: No, Mr. SpeaRer. 745

March 22,1984 MR.NEARY: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): member of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Tape No. 273 ah-2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. The hon. gentleman, Mr.Speaker, in his answer took a backhanded swipe at Senator Marshall for mentioning the name of a company. It was a backhanded swipe at his colleague, at his Tory colleague. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) again was entering into the realm of debate and I would like him to pose a question. MR.NEARY: quick today, Mr. Speaker. You are awfully, awfully I thought we were allowed a

preamble. Mr. Speaker, could the hon. gentleman inform the House if Senator Marshall is correct, that one of the companies that Bowater is talking to is the Krugar Paper Company? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR.POWER: Mr. Speaker, in response to that question, as I mentioned we are having negotiations, the Divestiture Committee is, with many companies. Krugar is bne of those companies. If the hon.

Leader of the Opposition had looked at the Evening Telegram this evening he would have seen that it is confirmed by a Krugar offical that they are looking at the Bowater operation, they have made no offers, As far as Senator Marshall goes, whether it is a backhand or a very direct slap on the wrist or anywhere else, Mr. Speaker, his comments were irresponsible, they jeopardize 746

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 274 MJ - 1 MR. POWER: negotiations 1 and if Mr. Marshall jeopardizes the thing. then I and the Government of Newfoundland 1 who are working harder than any other single group to make sure that mill is sold-much harder than the federal government, much harder than the Opposition, who know little or nothing about the process and what has happened- >'le, IJ!.r. Speaker, as the government reserve the right to let people know that if any individual is jeopardizing negotiations then we will certainly tell them point-blank that is what they are doing. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : 1-'ffi.. BARRETT: MR. TULK: The hon. the member for Fogo. You are not allowed to ask another question now. Over here we do not have a one- man show, we run as a team. MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBF.RS: MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. BAIRD: of horses. We are a team. Oh, oh! Do not get excited. Order, please! Order, please! All the dictators are over there. There is more intelligence in a team MR. TULK: Your intelligence is the same size as your shirt collar, 16.5. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: ll!r.

Sneaker, the minister has told us that he cannot guarantee the people of Corner Brook that the Bowater mill will be sold by the end of the year. He said the answer was no. He was up and down very quickly. Now let me ask him, if indeed his negotiations with companies that are now ongoing are not successful,does this government have any contingency plans for the mill in Corner Brook? 747

March 22, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Resources and Lands. Tape No. 274 MJ The hon. the Minister of Forest MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, my understanding of the rules is that you do not have to answer hypothetical questions. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: A suppleil\entary, Mr~ : Speaker. The hon. the member for Fogo. It is not a hypothetical question, Mr. Speaker. The answer was no, he cannot guarantee that he can sell the mill. Thatwas the answer that he gave us, Sothe question is not hypothetical, the answer is hypothetical. Can he now guarantee the people of Corner Brook that that mill be running on January lst?

And is it the case that one of the real problems that the minister has in negotiating the sale of that mill is a cheap wood supply? I would like for him to answer that question. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. 2 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, again 1 in the

preamble of the first question asked by the member,he says that he is not going to do anything in this House to jeopardize negotiations but he keeps asking questions that require intimate detail of the process that has taken place. I am not at liberty to release that information to anyone. When the process is complete, when it is finalized, when we have a buyer for the mill, when we have a long-term operator for the mill 1 then we will be more than happy to announce it to this House and to all, far and wide,that we have had a successful divestiture process and we do have a new operator for the mill.

The time frame is a time frame which is very flexible; we may have an offer on the table in three days, we may an offer on the table in three months, we may have a buyer in three months, we may not. But, Hr. Speaker, the process - and I 748

March 22, 1984 Tape No . 27 4· MJ - 3 MR. POWER: say this government is assisting in · that process in- every t.,ay possible - if the mill is going to be operated, if it is going to be sold,then it certainly will be a credit to this government becau s e we have worked so long and so hard to make that happen . Ne are ve ry optim .istic that in a fairly short amount o£ time we wiil have a satisfactory solution to that problem . SOME H0N . MEMBERS : MR . NEARY : 1-m. SPEAKER (Rus ·sell ) : Oppos itio n . MR . NEARY: Bear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon . the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, ! would like to ask the h a n . gentleman to cc:mfirm a statement already made by the Premier, outside of this House, I believe, that in the event that negotiations fo r a new buyer or new operator failed that the administration there opposite will not, 749

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 275 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: under any circumstances, take over the mill at Corner Brook, even if it is for a short-term, an interim period, while they.are shopping aroun~ the world for another operator. Will the hon. gentleman confirm that that is so, that the administration under no circumstances will consider taking over that mill? lve happen to feel; Hr. Speaker, that that was a gross error in strategy, in judgment, on the part of the administration. AN HON. MEMBER: No, you want a fire sale. MR. NEARY: And we are not advocating nationalization of the paper mill, by the way.

But all I am asking the minister to tell the House is if it is correct, the statements that the Premier made, is the administration still sticking by these statements that under no circumstances, even if it is only for 'a period of a few months, will the administration there opposite take over and operate that mill until they find a new operator? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that it is not just Senator Marshall who is irresponsible when it comes to this process, it is also the Opposition.

The Opposition, certainly in the tone of some of their questions, wants the Newfoundland government to divulge certain things about a strategy or process that we have in place which appears to be approaching - MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: MR. POWER: a strategy that we have. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. POWER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: The Premier said it. I asked about it. He said it on television to the Province. What the ?remier said is part of Oh, oh. The strategy is in place. Oh, oh. MR. POWER: ~rr. Speaker, again like Senator Marshall, some persons opposite know a small bit of information, 750

March 22, 19.84 Tape No. 275 SD - 2 MR. POWER: they do not understand the process that is in place, they do not understand all the people we have dealt with, they do not understand the strategy that we have 1 and all they c.an do is· poke sticks at it_now hoping that it will not work. Mr.

Speaker, we are very optimistic that it is going to work, that there will not :;.;e any need to satisfy th.e hypothetical questions asked by the two members opposite about whether the Newfoundland government will have to take it over somewhere down the road. we are very optimistic that the approach that we have put in place, the one that we have worked at, will result in a private operator purchasing the Bowater mill in Corner Brook and operating it for a very long time to come. r.m. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER CRussel1): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Mini·ster of Social Services· (_Mr. Hickey). Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Social Services is that this morning in the Estimate Committee, the minister was quite testy. Mr. Speaker, could the minister advise the House if s-ocial assistance recipients in the Province 1 if they have to go and visit and eye specialist or dentist, will their transportation be paid? 751

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 276 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The h,on. Minister of Social Services. · MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am still trying to fathom what is behind the han. gentleman's question. I am not aware, Mr. Speaker, of any change in policy which provides the service of paying for transportation for people for medical reasons. Is the han. gentleman aware of any change? MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that he is the Minister of Social Services, I understand there has been a directive gone out to the Conne River Indians from the Milltown office advising them that in future the Department of Social Services will not be paying for any social assistance recipients to visit a dentist or an eye specialist. Is this correct? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, now we are getting close to the meat of the issue. If the han. gentleman had phrased his question properly in the first place 1 he might have gotten the answer he was looking for.

Throughout the Province managers of the various offices have a responsibility to deliver the services to the people who need it as economically as possible. Where there is evidence or an indication that people are able to pay small amounts of money,and are in a position to do so, or have the ability to do so from a financial point of view, 752

March 22, 1984 Tape No . 276 NM - 2 MR. HICKEY: they have the discretion of paying for it in some instances, or refusing to pay in other instances . But in any case,each case is d~alt \o~ith on the basis of need and my staff in the field have that discretion . There is no directive which is all -embracihg from the department applicable to all over the Province : certainly if there is I would like to see it . I am unaware of any such directive and usually I am made aware of those things and my approval is required .. MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon . member for Torngat ' Mr . Speaker, 753

March 22, 1984 Tape 277 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: according to the answers we received from the minister this morning he is not aware of very much in his department. I would also like to ask the minister if contained in that letter that was sent by his office in Milltown, it was said that if there is· not a carload o. peeple to go to a particular doctor for that particular week 1 t·hen·we may not pay for the taxi fare at all?

Does that mean the minister's officials now are telling people in this Province that,look,you can only be sick on a particular day of the year,or a particular day in the week,because if there is not ~nough to fill a taxi, is the minister's department saying, no, we cannot pay for your doctor this week but we will take you next week when we can get a full carload? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman talks about my not knowing very much.

It is too bad the han. gentleman does not know enough to determine before he gets up what kind of a question he would like to ask. I mean,he is poking in the dark. He has asked three questions now when they could have all been put in one, and he could have gotten right to the point in the first one.

Now what he is talking about is do we provide special trip~ at a cost of $30, $40, maybe $50 for someone when there is no emergency involved, when indeed whether the person gets to the doctor Tuesay or Friday is really not going to matter very much. .~d the answer to that is ,no, we do not provide special taxis for people for medical attention which is routine medical attention, wherein there is no danger to life, no danger of a deterioration of their condition, etc. In that instance 754

March 22, 1984 Tape 277 PK - 2 MR. HICKEY: the · people in the field are using their .discretion,and very wise discretion, I suggest, by getting a service at the cheapest possiqle rate on behalf of the people of this Province who fund this government, who fund all the programmes in my department and every other department, wise use of the taxpayers•money and not harming or hurting anyone involved. Is the han. gentleman opposed to that? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister.

This morning we saw in the committee that the Native people in the Province and in Labrador have been scarificed because of the minister firing of four social workers. Now is the minister also telling Native people in Conne River that you can only go to the hospital or you can visit an eye specialist when the department official decides that you can go? Is that what the minister is doing to the Native people in this Province, making a decision for the Native people and a different decision for other people in this Province? Where is the directive to the other social workers through~ut the Province?

NO such directive ·has gone out except to the Native people in thi"' .l:'rovince. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, it is a wonder the han. gentleman 1when he got up this morning and looked out and found the sunshine did not go back to bed. I mean, I he is so negative, Mr. Speaker, he has become so negative that it is almost sick. It is very tormenting that the han. gentleman on such a fine day cannot find positive about the whole world. MR. WARREN: You fireri £our social worker~. 755

March 22, 1984 Tape 278 EC - 1 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, more appropriately put, another cheap shot, a few of which we heard this morning against the Native people of our Province. The han. gentleman is conjuring up in his mind once more an attack on Native people which does not exist. There is no attack. This government, through my department, Mr. Speaker, continues to show the greatest degree of compassion to fill the~ of all the people of this Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. HICKEY: Hear, hear! Oh, oh! - including, Mr.

Speaker, and placing special emphasis on Native people, recognizing the necessity of preserving their culture and heritage and having regard for it. The fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is the han. gentleman would like to have something to hang his hat on to show that we were doing something opposite. He has conjured up in his mind something because of four social workers who were dismissed because they chose to break the law,and because those people have said to the Native people in Labrador, choose what law you want to uphold and abide by, and any law you do not like, break. And that, Mr.

Speaker, could result in one thing: anarchy, MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor). I wonder if the minister could tell us the present status of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation? I notice there is $550,000 in the estimates for that 756

Ma r c h 2 2, 1984 Tape 27 8 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: corporation for this year. Could the hon. gentle:rnan tell the House if . at this particular point in time the hon. gentleman knows the future of that corporation? What will happen? Is there an agreement? . As we found out earlier today in a previous debate, the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation had ~een extended for one year. The agreement ran out about a year ago. Are there any negotiations going on currently fo.r a new agree­ ment? What is the status of these. negotiations? When does the hon. gentleman expect the negotiations to be completed? MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): Development. MR.. WINDSOR: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, as I recall - I stand to be corrected on the exact date - I think the original agreement with the federal government as it relates to NLDC expired on the 31st of December, 1982. It was subsequently extended for a fifteen month period, which takes it to 11a.rch 31st of this year, which is nine days time, and as of nine days time, there will no longer be any federal funding availabl.e. 757

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 279 MR. WINDSOR: Government 1 through the Premier as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, has been attempting . to negotiate a new contract with the federal government for the extension of NLDC,or an extension of · the existing contract. To this point in time we have not.been successful. The funding the hon. gentleman refers to in the budget NM - 1 is the Province's share,and it would be the same share that would be required were an extension to the contract negotiated with the federal government.

Our funds are in place,as are our equity funds which will be used for the venture capital programme, which the hon. gentleman mentioned a few moments ago was federal funding. Those are 100 per cent provincial funding which is in place in NLDC which will be used for that venture capital programme. Our funds for the administration of NLDC are in place but we do not have an agreement with the federal government. Obviously, if we do not get agreement with the federal government, then NLDC's activities will be curtailed for the simple fact that they will not have that funding available.

But let me emphasize again,provincial funds are in place and are in the budget as necessary. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in the event that the affairs of the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation are wound up, that there is no agreement and another federal agency delivers the same programmes, what will happen to the outstanding loans and guarantees, 758

March 22, ·1984 Tape No. 279 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: and what will happen to the assets of the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation? In the event that after nine days from now it no longer exists, it goes out of existence, will the Province pay 100 per cent of the cost of keeping the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation in existence, or will it just fade out of existence altogether? Then what becomes of the commitments and the assets of that corporation? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Development. MR. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Well, Mr. Speaker, obviously the federal government has a responsibility here as well.

As I recall,something in the order of $25 million of the loans outstanding are federal funds, and it is not clear yet to the Province exactly what will happen to those funds,whether the federal government will leave them in as equity into the corporation,in which case the Province would certainly be in a position to carry on if we had that $25 million to use.

Obviously the federal government has a responsibility for the ongoing maintenance of that loan portfolio,as does the Province since they are federal/provincial funds,and there will have to be a mechanism, an NLDC, to continue with the administration of these loans. The problem may be that we may not have loan funds from the federal government to continue with more loans.

We do have our equity funding in place,which has always been put in by the Province, we have our 50 per cent share of the administrative costs which have been shared fifty/fifty and our provincial share is there in the budget,as has already been referred to, so we have done 759

l1arch 22, 1984 Tape No. 279 NM - 3 MR . WINDSOR: what we need to do to keep NLDC operating and effective as it has been over the years. We would certainly like to see the corporation continue,but we will need the assistance of the federal governm ent in order to have it continue at the level that we have seen in past. Unfo rtunate ly 1 what we are seeing from the federal governm ent 760

March 22, 1984 Tape 280 EC - 1 MR. NINDSOR: government, of course, is this great concept of direct delivery and they seem to be leaning towards other corporations, maybe FBDB or new lead corporations. The han. gentleman referred a moment ago to a multiplicity of· corporations which seem to be providing funding. That is quite true, there are, and the federal government now wants to create more.

They want to get out into the municipalities, go around the Province and deal with municipalities, provide funds for incentives and promotion in municipalities, by-passing the provincial government, by-passing the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Department of Development and the Department of Finance, trying to set their own priorities and directly deliver funds to areas for in­ dustrial incentives and industrial investments. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Leader of the Opposition. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. the MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would gather from the answer given by the han. gentleman in reply to my questions that he is not very optimistic that the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation will continue nine days from now. The han. gentleman did not address himself to the question that I put to him abou~ the assets of that corporation. How many employees are over there now at the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation and do they own their own building? If so, what will become of that asset in the event that the corporation phases out of existence?

Nhat will become of the assets of that corporation and what will become of the employees? I do not know how many they have, they must have fifty or sixty or more over there working in the corporation. Could the han. gentleman give us a few more details of what will 761

March 22, 1984 Tape 280 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: "happen if it does go out of existence and the federal government deliver their programmes through the Federal Business Development Bank? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. "the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Once again, Mr. Speaker, I am faced with a hypothetical question. NLDC has not folded yet. We are still in "place, we still have funding here, ' provincial funding which will allow the corporation to carry on for the time being.

Obviously, negotiations are still ongoing a~d,until they ar~ finalized, it is hypothetical for me to answer any questions as to what might happen if something does ~ot happen or does happen. Obviously, that will have to be dealt "with. The exact number of employees I am not entirely sure of; there are in the order of fifteen to twenty employees, and it is my understanding that the premises that they occupy are leased premises. But there is a portfolio of loans.

The assets would not be significant; there is a loan portfolio, most of which would be federal funding; there is an equity portfoli~ which is provincial funding, for which obviously, we will need a structure to carry on and to administer that, and that has to be in place from the Province's point of view. But again,I emphasize, the federal government has a responsibility as well to protect its loan portfolio, and must be involved to some degree, but we have not yet finalized those negotiat~ons. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the track record of the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation, of course, 762

.L !-larch 22, 1984 Tape 280 EC - 3 MR. NEARY : has been very dismal indeed. The administration there opposite have used the federal funds for pork barrelling . MR . MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Rus sell ): Order , please! The h·)n . the President of the Council on a point of order . MR. MARSHALL : Mr . Speaker, the hen. gentleman is making a speech and this is the Question Period. MR. SPEAKER: The . Chair did recognize the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) on what I think he said \o~as his final supplementary. Certainly, there is a reference in Beauchesne that in asking a supplementary question no

preamble is needed. MR . NEARY: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Mr . Speaker, the hen . ge ntleman, of course, is srmrti.ng, and, 763

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 281 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the reason the hon. gentleman is smarting over there is because he can see the end of federal funds that were used by the administration there opposite for pork Barrelling purposes, for political patronage, for their buddies. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman a simple quest:ton,because the hon, gentleman seems to be concerned about the fact that the federal government wants to deliver direct to business and industry and municipalities. Is there anything wrong wfth that?

If the federal government is paying 100 per cent of the cost of these programmes ·,what is wrong with the cheques coming from the Government of Canada directly to business and industry and to municipalities rather than through a middleman, which is the Province? What is wrong with that? Is there any ·thing wrong with that principle? MR. SPEAKER (.Russell}: The hon, Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, there is no problem as it relates to NLDC now·. And th.ere is no pork barrelling.

I want to address that, because the funds· of NLDC are managed by a federal/provincial Management Committee which oversees the work of NLDC. The federal minister and I,and I think a couple of my colleagues,are the shareholders of the corporation, annual meetings are held on a regular basis as required under corporate law, and so forth. There is absolutely no political input. There is a impartial federal/provincial committee that decides if funds are to be disbursed and if they are not. Just the opposite of what the hon. gentleman saiu,.

NLDC has had an absolutely superb record of success with funding industries and businesses in this Province. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 764

March 22 , 1 984 Tap e No. 281 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: We do not fund. That shows how much the han. gentleman does not know, Mr. Speaker. FBDB may well fund beauty salons and theatres~ NLDC funds resource­ based industries only 1 not service industries as the han. gentleman is trying to indicate. The fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that indeed th.ere is a problem with the federal government doing direct funding. It is clearly the prerogative and the responsibility of this provincial government to set priori ties· in resource development. It is clearly the responsibility of the Minister of Municipal Affairs (.Mrs.

Newflook} to administer the affairs of municipalities in this Province. The federal government is clearly trying to circumvent the authority and the responsibility of this government by getting into direct funding both . in industrial incenti-ves, in municipal programmes, in tourism development and in housing programmes, Mr. Speaker, clearly trying to circumvent the authority of this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS·: Ere ax, hear. MR. SPEAKER (RUsselll: Order, please!' T±rne for th.e Question Period has exp ±red. 765

March 22,1984 Tape No. 282 ah-1 MR. NEARY: Too bad,Mr.Speaker. He just gave me a lead there for a dozen more questions. PRESENTING REPORTS'OF STANDING AND' SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the report of matters transacted by the Minister of Labour and Manpower during 1983 under the provisions of the Labour Relations :-~ Act, the Public Service( Collective Bargaining)Act,The Fishing Industry(Collective Bargaining) Act, The Newfoundland Teacher (collective Bargaining)Act, the Report of the Labour Standards Board for the year 1983, and the report of the Newfoundland Labour Relations Board for the year 1983. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR.BUTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 4,261 people in Conception Bay South who have a very serious problem with overcrowding of schools in the area. The size of this petition is indicative of the size of the problem we have in our area. I would like to read the prayer of the petition and made some comments on it. 'Whereas Conception Bay South is a growing community resulting mainly from people moving into our area;and

whereas unlike most other parts of the Province enrollment in our school district is increasing;and

whereas serious 766

March 22,1984 Tape No. 282 ah-2 MR.BUTT: overcrowding problems are being experienced in most of our schools;and

whereas without necessary emergency funding our schools will not be (ible to accomodate the pupils in the district in September of 1984,we · hereby request in the strongest possible terms that the provincial government and the Integrated Education Council allocate both immediate and long-term funding to our school board so that our children's education may continue.' Now, Mr. Speaker, this petition comes about as a tremendous amount of work by a lot of pe9ple in Conception Bay South.

And I might add 1just before I get right into the meat of the problem that we have 1that some of the key movers of that petition are here with us today. We had an excellent committee working out there chaired by Mrs. Tilley,and I am very pleased to see her here today to hear this petition being presented. This petition comes at a very appropriate time, Mr. Speaker, because there have been a number of initiatives taken by this government in recent weeks even though we are living in very tough economic times.

I think government has proven once again that it is making a solid commitment to education in this Province. When we discussed this problem of overcrowding in our schools, there were a couple of things that we needed to accomplish within government to address the problem. One was increased block funding to the DECs,and the second one, so the various education councils could address the problems 1was long-term commitments. I am pleased to say today that as a result of the budget that came down on Tuesday the $10.8 million which was allocated last year has increased by 25 per cent to 767

March 22 ,1984 Tape No . 282 ah -3 MR . BUTT : $13 .5 million 1plus an additional $1,500,000 for renovations and to meet with the fire regulations requirements and so 'on for a total of $15 million this year allocated to the DECs . MR.NEARY : Does that mean you are going to get a new school up there? MR .BUTT: Nell,! am hoping , it is my fervent wi sh that some of that money \vill be direct ed to Conception Bay South,because we,as a government ,cannot direct the money to Conception Bay Southr it has to be directed by the I~tegrated Education Council . SO~re HCN .MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! 768

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 283 MJ - 1 r1R. BUTT: Now, Mr. Speaker, in the five minutes that I have available to me -~nd I will shout ·as loud as I must to get this point across. I am disappointed by the way with the interruption :of the hon. members while I am presenting this very im~ortant petition- we have some very serious,problems up there in Topsail Elementary School, in Paradise and more particularly in Fred Kirby Junior High School in Foxtrap. There are children presently today being taught in cafeterias, in science labs, french labs, music rooms and so on.

There are several classes that do not even have a home room,so they wander from one classroom to another taking their books and everything else with them. It is a very difficult way to get an education. It is a real problem. The public health has withdrawn their services from Fred Kirby School because there is no room for the public health nurse to go in that school and to carry out her normal duties. The overcrowding problem with the Conception Bay South Integrated School Board has reached crisis proportions.

And unless the Integrated Education Council now redirects some of that funding, and in the first instance, for an interim solution to the problem, to make an expansion to Paradise Elementary School and to add on, expand on Foxtrap Queen Elizabeth Regional High School,then there are children in Conception Bay South who will not have a place to go next year. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, by leave for a minute. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am sure the hon. member is aware that when presenting a petition and responding to it the hon. member has five minutes except by leave. The 769

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 283 MJ - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russ.ell) : five minutes for the hon. member has expired. Doesthe hon. member have leave to continue? SOME HON. ·MEMBERS : MR: SPEAKER: MR. BUTT: Agreed. Agreed. All I require is another minute or so. I just want to say that the problem is twofold. What we need immediately, for the interim pr9blem, is immediate funding to expand in Paradise and in Foxtrap; the long-term solution besides that is funding for a new high school 1 which would take about two years to build and be completed in 1986. So, Mr.

Speaker, I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: supporting the petition. MR. BUTT: MR. 'NEARY: supporting. MR. MORGAN: MR. BUTT: MR. SPEAKER: au Port. Thank you, very much. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. You did not say whether you were Yes, I did. No, you did not say you were What did he say? I signed it. Order, please! The hon. the member for nort MR. MORGAN: Do you think he would be opposed to it in his a-m district? MR. HODDER: If the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) would keep his mouth shut for a moment, Mr. Speaker, I will proceed. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: Order, please! Order, please! 11r. Speaker, all members on this 770

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 283 MJ - 3 MR. HODDER: side of the House would like the opportunity to respond to this particular petition, but unfortunatelv under the rules only one of us can. MR. MORGAN: MR. HODDER: You want to plav politics·1.rith it. If the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker, will let me make my comments, I will proceed. Mr. Speaker, I first would like to praise the committee who circulated this petition. MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. HODDER: to him today. MR. WARREN: MR. HODDER: Praise the member, too, bov. Order, please! Order, please!

I do not know what has happened Walk out,boy. But, Mr. Speaker, I think this is a case,which we are seeing in many areas of the Province, of the population of St. John's proper spilling out into what was once the rural areas of the Province. We have seen that occurrence take place in many parts of the Province. This have give rise to many problems, which are predictable by the way; population shifts are predictable. But I think it was three years ago,when the Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge) brought in the expanded high school curricul~m, and she had said $10 million would be enough to finance the expanded high school curriculum, we on this side told her that would not be enough. Now the problems which are being faced by this school board are twofold: One,that there is a population shift taking place from the larger centers to the more urban centers. Topsail, for instance 1 being a place which was once a small communit~ is now almost a suburb of St. John's. "l'le find that school populations are growing very quickly in those areas. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the conditions which exist - and I have read 771

March 22, l984 Tope No. 283 MJ - 4 MR. HODDER: the brief carefully and I commend the committee on the brief -the conditions which exist in this particular area are extreme. They are a provincial. disgrace if not a national 772

March 22, 1984 Tape 284 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: disgrace. Conditions ·,I hasten to add as well, conditions not unlike those exist in other areas of the Province which are facing similar problems of expanded high school curriculum plus population shift. Mr. Speaker, I would have to say this,that the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) whenever she speaks always, and we have heard this refrain ever since she has been a minister, she cannot even make a ministerial statement unless she says that the government of course gives the DECs,of which the IEC is a

part 1 the monies and they then distribute the monies to the school boards. But we on this side know, Mr. Speaker, where there is a political will it can be done. And we know that school boards have been bailed out in this Province and that money has been earmarked by the government. And I might point out as well that this committee and these communities have asked for emergency funding. And, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House feel that the conditions which the people in those areas face they certainly should receive special funding ,or funds earmarked to the IEC,to the DEC for these particular schools.

MR. WINDSOR: MR. NEARY: MR. WINDSOR: MR. HODDER: politics MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: Be honest, boy. Emergency funding. Do not play politics. Mr. Speaker, I am not playing Order, please! - I am being honest. And the hon.member opposite knows that I am being honest. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Action. These people need action,not promises. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 773

March 22, 1984 Tape 284 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the condition existing in those schools are,as I said before,atrocious, abysmal, or whatever words I might use. The Kirby Junior High School,I read in the report 1was built for 650 students, it now holds 777 ·students 1 and it is expected that next year that a minimum of 807 students will b~ in that particular school. In that school alone there are 150 thirteen year olds,or students about that age ,who do not have classrooms · or desks, they have to carry their textbooks and materials fron one classroom to another.

They have no homeroom classroom or no place to leave their books and their materials. MR. NEARY: It is shameful. MR. HODDER: We have the Queen Elizabeth High School at Foxtrap,which, at the time it was built was to hold some 550 students and to offer some thirty courses. Since the expanded high school programme has come into being,there are some sixty-seven courses there now and 621 students 1and it is expected that next year a minimum number of students will be 660.

And,as the member opposite . pointed out, in that particular school they are using the music room, the cafeteria, the student common rooms, the staff room, the art room and the audio-visual roomas classroons. Now I did understand that there was some funds through Education earmarked for upgrading of schools because of rulings by the fire commissioner. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the member opposite might think in terms of using some of those funds to do some of the work which is so badly needed in those particular schools.

There are other school ~ under this particular school board which must utilize as classrooms a multipurpose room which is now utilized for music and physical education, and there is no special kindergarten room, That school as well is being pressured very much by the 774

March 22, 1984 Tape 284 PK - 3 MR. HODDER: outward expansion. St. George's School in Long Pond has the possibility next year 1 because of the expansion 1 of a loss of a library and cafeteria. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. SPEAKER: I have again, under the rules,to advise the hon. -member that his five minutes has expired. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: leave to continue? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: By leave, Mr. Speaker. Does the hon . member have Agreed. Agreed. Mr.

Speaker, as well the Upper Gullies School has a problem in that its cafeteria has been divided into classrooms. Basically all of those schools which I have mentioned and I mention them to point out the severity of the crisis in the Conception Bay area. Now what I would say to the members and I would say to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), and as I said before where there is a political will this can be done, and please do not get up and try to lecture us on how - and I know she will, she will get up and lecture us of how the funds are given to the IECs. But we know different.

And if the minister has the political will, then I am quite sure if you gave the IECs an extra amount of money to work on those schools then I am sure that the IECs would only be too glad to use the money in the hon. member's district. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MS. VERGE: Mr~ Speaker. 775

March 22, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): SOME HON. MEMBERS: MS. VERGE: Tape No. 285 SD - 1 The han. Minister of Education. Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, I recognize,and everyone an · this side of the House recognizes,the pressing need for new school construction in the Conception Bay South I~tergrated School District. That district,out of the thirty-five school districts in the Province,is unique. That is the only school district experiencing population growth_ and student enrollment increase. In all the other districts, in the other thirty-four districts, there is student enrollment decline.

Because of the population growth and the introduction of Grade XII in Conception Bay South,clearly the existing school buildings are overcrowded and very inadequate. Mr. Speaker, I have become quite aware of the deplorable conditions in Conception Bay South and of the critical need for expansion of facilities,by the efforts of the member of the House of Assembly for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Butt), my friend and my colleague, and his constituents, the members of the Conception Bay South Intergrated School Board who met with me first over a year ago, the parents of students in that school system, many of whom are · seated here in the gallery today under the capable leadership of Parent/Teacher Association members, as I understand it, and also the executive and officials of the Intergrated Education Council. Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the member for Conception Bay South and the parents who are leading the drive for new school facilities th .ere for their responsible approach.

They have very professionally and competently detailed facts and figures which make obvious the necess -ity of funding for the school expansion. MR. NEARY: li'Jill they get the funds? MS. VERGE: SOME HON. MEMBERS: 776 Mr. Speaker, under the Constitution - Oh, oh!

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 285 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: The same old thing. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, is this the same Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MS. VERGE: -who last year, just last year in this very same Chamber, Mr. Speaker, was c::n.stinCT asnP.rsions - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: You are hiding behind the Constitution. Order, please! - on this administration, was piously upholding the constitutional role of the churches in education? MR. NEARY: Are you going to give them the funds or are you not? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS.

VERGE: Mr. Speaker, surely this cannot be the same Leader of the Opposition? MR. NEARY: Are they going to get their school? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, under the Constitution of Canada,which I formally believed was supported by the Leader of the Opposition, ~he major Christian denominations in this Province have historic rights and responsibilities in education. Mr. Speaker, power over primary- -elementary­ high school education is split between the provincial government and these Christian denominations, the leading churches in the Province. Mr.

Speaker, this administration has respected that division of powers and responsibilities. 777

March 22, 1984 Tape 286 EC - 1 MS VERGE: Now, Mr. Speaker, in this 'particular situation,where clearly there is a need for a new school construction in Conception Bay South, the role .of the provincial government is precisely the provision of funding to the churches. The chu~ches, through their Denominational Education Counci~s, in turn, have the responsibility for managing those public funds and for consulting with their respective school boards - the Conception Bay South Integrated board in this case - and allocating those funds. Mr.

Speaker, the Denominational Education councils alone determine priprities for new school construction in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, since 1971 - 1972, which was an historic year for many reasons, primarily because it was the year that the Progressive Conservative Party gained the government of the Province, and also because student enrolment in primary, elementary and high schools across the Province reached a record high, since that year, Mr. Speaker, the provincial government have provided funding to make possible $300 million worth of new school construction in this Province. SOME HON. MIDJI.BERS : MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Hear, hear! Order, please! Again, I must advise the han. the minister that her five minutes has expired. Does the han. the minister have leave to continue? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are prepared to grant the hon. the minister leave providing she will make a commitment to the people of Conception Bay South that they will get their funding for their new school. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I understand that leave is either given unconditionally or it is not given at all. 778

March 22, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): leave to continue? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: of Education. MS VERGE: Tape 286 EC - 2 Does the han. the min~ster have By leave. By leave, the han. the ~inister Thank you, Mi. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the budget for the 1984 - 1985 fiscal year that was announced by my colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Colli~s),here . on Tuesday, there is provision for generous amounts of funding for the Denominational Education Councils for a new school construction; Jtr.

Speaker, for the new budget year, a total of $15 million, split into $13.5 million for regular, ongoing school facilities needs,and $1.5 million for upgrading to meet modern fire and safety standards. But, Mr. Speaker, there was also an announcement for the following budget year, for the 1985 - 1986 budget year, and that announcement was a promise of a minimum of $10.8 million for school construction. So, Mr.

Speaker, the Denominational Education Councils now have $15 million plus $10.8 million for a total of $25.8 million to work with, to plan.with and to make commitments for new school con­ struction projects across the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, that total amount,by the constitution, has to be split among the different denominations participating in our education system according to each denomination's share of the total provincial population and, Mr. Speaker, 56 per cent of the ·total goes to 779

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 287 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: the Integrated Education Council which is responsible for funding construction in the Conception Bay South integrated ~chool district. Now, Mr -. Speaker, 56 per cent of the $25.8 million is now in the hands of the Integrated Education Council as they scrutinize the needs in the Conception Bay South Integrated District and the needs of the other integrated districts around the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, ~he Integrated Education Council have the constitutional, the legal mandate of ajudicating on the Conception Bay South need.

They have the expertise to do this work and they have a good track record of responsible management of public funding for school construction. Mr. Speaker, after the Budget Speech 1I personally talked with the chair person of the Finance Committee of the Integrated Education Council, Colonel Browning,who is the head of the Salvation Army in this Province. And, Mr. Speaker, I also talked with the Superintendent of the Conception Bay South Integrated School Board, and Mr.

Speaker, those people assured me that there will be very prompt con­ sideration of the Conception Bay South situation with the knowledge of this new money. And, Mr. Speaker, I am confident that the Integrated Education Council will make a wise decision on behalf of the parents and the students of Conception Bay South. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I have to contradict and challenge what was said by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) when he claimed that he 780

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 287 MS. VERGE: knew of bail-outs by the provincial government of individual school district needs where he alluded to the Province's having by­ passed the Denominational F.ducation Councils. Now, Mr. Speaker, those things will not subst~ntiated because they cannot NM - 2 be substantiated. They are false. And, Mr.

Speaker, I call on the members opposite to first of all state that they respect the Constitution, that they honour the historic legal division of powers between the provincial government and the churches, and that they have confidence in the integrity of the Integrated Education Council. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please~ The han. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: We gave the han. minister leave to let her carry on for a while to see if she would make a commitment to the people of Conception Bay South.

Obviously the minister is merely using weasel words to back out of her responsiblity, to abdicate her responsibility, Mr. Speaker, and unless the han. minister is going to make a commitment that they will get the funding for these new schools we are going to have to withdraw leave, because now she is giving us a lecture on the Constitution. The han. minister cannot continue to hide behind the Constitution or the Terms of Union and abdicate her responsibility~ either the minister is going to run the education system of this Province or she is not. 781

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 287 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! To that point of order,the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (~tr . Neary) certainly has not raised a valid point o~ order . Again he has sort of placed certain conditions on giving leave to the bon. member, which certainly I do not think has been done in this House before. MR. NEARY: Carry on. MR. SPEAKER: Education. MS. VERGE : No, let her carry on. The hon . Minister of Mr .

Speaker, I would like to conclude simply by repeating what I said earlier,that with the provision of additional monies to the Denominational Education Council that was announced in the Budget Speech on Tuesday, with the Integrated Education Council members and officials having knowledge of the availability of several million dollars additional funding over the next two years,that the Integrated Education Council will make the right decision for the parents and the students of Conception Bay South, as well as all the other parents and students in this Province for whom they have responsibility. SOME BON .

MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! 782

March 22,1984 Tape No. 288 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): Order, please! Before I call Orders of the Day,I would like to welcome to the galleries twenty-three Girl Guides of the 77th St. John's Girl Guide Company, St. Mary's School, accompanied by their leaders,Roberta Osmond, Elsbeth Baird, Daphne Earle and Lori Cook. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: Finance. DR.COLLINS: Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion 2 1 Bill No.lO. The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. House that I have received a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor . MR.

SPEAKER: Addressed to the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins). 'I 1the Lieutenant­ Governor of the Province of Newfoundland 1 transmit estimates of sums required for the public service of the Province for the year ending the 31st day of March 1985 by way of interim supply. And in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution Act,l867,I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly.'Signed by His Honour,the Lieutenant-Governor. The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I move that the message together with a bill be referred to the Committee of Supply.

MR.SPEAKER: It has been moved and seconded that the message,together with the estimates, be referred to a Committee of Supply. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, before Your 763

March 22,1984 Tape No. 288 ah-2 MR.NEARY: Honour puts the question, I would like on a point of clarification more than anything else - HR. MARSHALL: "·That clarification? MR.NEARY: I am asking for clarification. I have the right to respond to the motion that was just made. But the point that I am making is a point of clarification. The han. gentleman should follow the debates. What I want to ask the House, Mr. Speaker, is when we go into Committee of the Whole, Committee of Supply, what rules will we be following?

Now over the past two or three years we have had two or three different procedures, two or three different techniques. The Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) the year before last allowed the ordinary rules of debate in the House to be used in Committee of the Whole when we were on interim supply. Last year we were restricted to ten minutes back and forth, ten minutes at a time, and you could speak as often as you wanted to in these sessions but you were only allowed to speak ten minutes, so we have seen two different sets of rules applied. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am asking for direction from the Chair,probably,in this matter,or from the Government House Leader , as to what rules we are going to follow. MR. MARSHALL: That ~'las (inaudible) . MR.NEARY: No, this is interim supply, this is not an ordinary Committee of Supply. Because the only way it can be done, Mr. Speaker, is through mutual agreement of both sides of the House. Before we agree to it;we want to know what rules we will be following. MR.SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. 784

March 22, 1984 Tape li;Jo. 288 ah - 3 t1R. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, Standing Order 118 (5) reads, "Notwithstanding Standing Order 49" - and that relates to the rules of debate in the House, I believe. I will check that it does . just to be sure, because I would not want the hon. gentleman to think I would mislead him. It does, yes, it relates: to the debate in the House - "the Minister introducing his estimates and the rne~ber speaking immediately in reply shall not speak for more than fifteen minutes and every other me~ber shall not speak for more than ten minutes" during the time.

And that was the wav in which we had conducted it inthe past and, which I suggest to the House, is the most appropriate way o{ doing it, because it gives the min~ster only fifteen minutes, a response of only fifteen minutes, and each member gets ten minutes to make his point. I think it can be done much better that way, and it is covered there by the rules. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, as long as I understand the rules of procedure that are going to be followed when we go into committee of the Whole on interim supplv, that is fine. So each member ,.,ill be allowed ten minutes.

He can speak as often as he wants and the time will be deducted from the seventy-five hours. That is fine with us. MR. MARSHALL: We desire at all tbres to be very co-operative and, I hope also, instructive to the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Nearv) and members of the Opposition. SOl1E HON. t-'1EMBF.RS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The motion is that the message together with the estimates be referred to a Committee of the Whole on Supply. 785

March 22, 1984 Tape No~ 289 On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTE ·E .OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. COLLINS: Order, please! Mr. Chairman. MJ - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chaitman, we are in Co~ittee of Supply with regard to interim supply and interim supply is required because in the normal course of events one does not anticipate the main estimates to be debated, discussed and finally accepted by this Honourable House for some time . and the funds available to government in wnich to discharge its responsibilities, the authority ·to send those funds run out as of midnight March 31, 1984, in a short period of time.

So, interim supply is to give authority for government to continue spending f~nds which hopefully will ultimately be voted in the main estimates until such time as that occurs. In Committee, Mr. Chairman, we are debate a resolution which reads as follows: "That it is expendient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for de~raying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1985, the sum of six hundred and one million four hundred and eight thousand eight hundred dollars ($601,408,800) ."And, Mr.

Chairman, there is a bill associated with that resolution, Bill 10, which gives a few details as to why that particular amount of money is required. Perhaps I could just give a few of the details at this point in time. Last year we had an interim supply Bill to the amount of just under $440 million but that was for a period of two months. This year we are requesting.the Committee, and later the House 1to grant interim supply for the period 766

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 289 MJ - 2 DR. COLLINS: of three ~onths which will give us the flexibility' for the House to continue operating during April, May and June. We anticipate that by the· end of June the main estimate.s will ·have been passed, If that is not the case, of course, there are 1)1eans. available to us: Government would have to operate through Special Warrants or whatever. But anyway we estimate that three months should suffice and that is why the amount is somewhat in excess of $150 million more than last year. Mr.

Speaker, in requesting interim supply it is traditional that the monies requested relate to the ongoing expenses of government, the everyday expenses that are necessary so that essential services,and so on, can be continued,and most of the request is of that nature. As a matter of fact1all. but about $51 million is of that nature, for the ongoing expenses of government for the three­ month period following April 1, 1984. However, Mr.

Speaker, we can, government can, it is quite legitimate, to also request a certain amount of capital funding, not just ordinary ongoing funding but a certain amount of capital funding which is necessary because if it is not given it means that we cannot begin our capital works programme until the 787

March 22, 1984 Tape 290 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: main estimates came down. And particularly in terms of construction , we have a short construction season in this Province. If we have to wait,say, until the beginning.of July to start our road programme or building bridges and that type of thing, it would cause a great deal of -difficulty. So we are permitted,therefore, to ask the Committee,and utimately the House,to allow us to also request a small amount,or as much .as is necessary, I suppose, of capital funding,and we are doing that.

Now we have to spell out what we need that for, and that is what I would like to do at this point in time. We are requesting a total of $51,373,000 for capital works which we can give contracts for or which will allow us to continue ongoing capital works during that three month period. Road and bridge rehabilitation takes up $14,310,000 of that total amount. Improvements and construction of roads takes up $13,930,000 of that amount.

Highways, Transport-Canada, the cost-shared arrangement 1 takes up $4,705,000; residential and industrial servicing, these are DREE projects,takes up $3,718,000; forest access roads, these are also DREE projects, takes up $3,150,000; .airstrips·,­ these are airstrips to be constructed in Labrador,$3 million, the Burin Peninsula Development funds, members of the committee will remember that this fund was set up under the · Fishery Restructuring agreement, the Burin Peninsula Development fund, $2,470,000; the new School for the Deaf,to begin construction on that or to begin planning and later on the site preparation, $1,500,000; various energy conservation project through the Department of Public Works and Services, $1 million; extension to the Harbour Lodge Senior Citizens' Home, $800,000~ various 788

March 22, 1984 Tape 290 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: bridges and caus~ways 1 $765,000; the Makkovik Depot ·Building, $575,000; Deer Lake Highways Depot, $500,000; the St. John's Courthouse exterior refuibishing, also $500,000, and finally 1 the Whitbourne School for Boys, renovations to that institution which is required to convert it into a suitable institution which w~ll be needed when the Young Offenders Act comes into force, $450,000. And as I mentioned, Mr. Chairman, that all adds up to $51,373,000. The other amounts,approximately $550,000 1 are for the various departments to continue their ongoing activities for that.three month period 1 and the bill itself has a

schedule attached to it which outlines the various amounts for the various departments,so I do not think I need to go into that in any great detail. Mr. 8hairman, as we debate in Committee the Interim Supply Bill, this is really part of the debate on the main estimates, part of the debate on the Budget,and the time we take over this particular aspect of the Budget,of course,is also counted as part of the .time alloted under the rules of the House to the main estimates. So with those remarks, Mr. Chairman, I move adoption of the resolution and the adoption of the bill associated with it. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward): MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, first of all let me say this, that what we are seeing today in this han. House is something new. We are seeing something new in this han. House today. We are seeing two major debates on the go at the same time;in addition to that 1 we have an Interim Supply Bill. Now,what I mean by something new, 789

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 291 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: it is not unusual to have two major debates on the go in ~he House at the same time. But it is very, very unusual, Mr. Speaker, for the ad~inistration there opposite to delay the opening of the House, to postpone the opening of the House for so lung 1 and'then have the Lieutenant-Governor come in, going to the trouble of corning up from Government House, sit in the Chair and deliver a Throne Speech, and then we start what is commonly known 'in legislative circles as the Address in Reply - and the Address in Reply is a major debate in this hon. House.

There are only two occasions during a session of the House, a given session of the Legislature, there are only two occasions when government have the opportunity to lay out their plans 1 to lay out a blueprint to tell the people of Newfoundland and Labrador what they intend to do about the financial mess in the Province and the horrendous state of the Newfoundland and Labrador economy. There are two occasions when government spell out their policies and programmes and plans to help the people and help the poor old Province. One of these is the Throne Speech and the other is the Budget Speech.

Now, Mr. ·Speaker, what happened after the Throne Speech was delivered? Mr. Chairman, I can hear muttering going on somewhere be~ind the'curtain. I know it is awfully distracting. Mr. Chairman, what happened when the Throne Speech was delivered by His Honour? We had three or four days of debate. Now,rernernber what I am talking about: I am talking about a major document, one of the two most important occasions in the House for government to outline its plans and have these plans debated. How many days did we have the Throne Speech debate already? We had three days.

Three full days is what we had to debate the Throne Speech 1 and that is what is new in this House today, 790

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 291 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. Now they bring down a bud·get. They kee]) the House closed until sometime in Ma:r~h. When did the House open? MR. TULK: March 12th. MR. NEARY: The 12th of March. Hon. members will recall that ·I was criticizing government outside the House for keeping the House closed while we had economic and financial ruin facing us in this Province. They finally elected to open it,and then they allowed us three days for the Throne Speech debate.

Only· one or two members on this side of the House, maybe one or two on the other side, were given an opportunity to participate in the debate and give their views of what they thought of the Throne Speech, Mr. ~~ai~an. And,lo and behold 1 in they come in less than a week with the Budget Speech;and then as soon as the Budget Speech is read, bang, we are hit with interim supply. MR. TULK: That is right. MR. NEARY: Now what does that indicate to han. gentlemen? What does it indicate, Mr. Chairman? It indicates that the administration there opposite are in a rush to get the House closed.

If they had their way they would close the House before the school children get their Easter holidays. That is it, Mr. Chairman, that is the strategy of this administration. And now· the Throne Speech is pushed into the background. It will not see the light of day probably until sometime next Fall when everybody has forgotten about it. It will be called again by the Government House Leader (~. MarshallL probably in November or December, Mr. Chairman. t.-. 11.1R. WINDSOR: You are wrong. MR. NEARY: I was not wrong last year and I was not wrong the year before and I am not wrong this year. Mr.

Chairman, what they are tryin~ to do is rush the business of this House, get it through, get the business over and done 791

March 2,2, 1984 Tape No. 291 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: with because th .ey feel that, while they are in the House of As ·sembly and we have an opportunity to ask pene ·tra ting ques ·tions 792

March 22, 1984 Tape 292 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: and to criticize the administration there opposite for their mismanagement of the economy and their incompetence, they feel they are losing ground and they are losing points and all they are worried about is their image, Mr. Chairman. That is all they are worried about. They are having polls done every month. The Premier is paranoid,. having polls done to see · if he is popular this month, if his popularity is down or if it is up,and how do people feel about him. 1{.hat an ego trip, Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman is on! They could have opened the House earlier, Mr.

Chairman. They could have opened the House in January or February. We could have had a thorough discussion and debate on the problems con­ fronting our people; we could have put forward plans and recommendations and ideas and suggestions on how to deal with these problems, Mr. Chairman. Now we have to do it through the backdoor. The administra­ tion there opposite are not prepared to back up that Throne Speech that was delivered in this House by His Honour a couple of weeks ago. They are too ashamed of it and they want to get that off the agenda as fast as they can, Mr. Chairman.

And I do not blame them, because if I were the author of that document I would be ashamed of it too. Because there was no hope in that document for the people of this Province, no hope, nothing but despair, Mr. Chairman, for the people of this Province. There was no comfort in either the Budget Speech or the Throne Speech for those people who are unemployed in this Province. There was no comfort for the sick and the dying, Mr. Chairman, people on social assistance, the aged, people who are receiving pensions from the administration. There was nothing but 793

March 22, 1984 Tape 292 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Draconian measures and panic policies by the administration in dealing with students, restricting student allowances, Mr.ChailTian, the Gestapo tactics we see in the Department of Social Services. MR. PATTERSON: That is not true~ The han. member would not recognize a 'dr-=oon' if he . saw one! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I recognize - I was going to say a clown - a clone when I see one. The han. gentleman is very familiar with that word, he introduced it in this House a couple of years ago.

But, Mr.Chairman, there is no comfort there for the people who are on social assistance, who cannot budget for everyday needs, living in cold, damp homes, cannot afford the balanced diet that they need to survive in this cold, damp climate we have here in this Province. Mr. Chairman, what about the students? We have the first graduating class of Grade XII coming out of the high schools in June, coming out of the expanded high school system. And what do they have facing them? Higher tuition fees if they want to go on to a post-secondary education.

If you want to go to the College of Trades or the vocational schools or Memorial University now, you have to be the son or daughter of a rich person or you will be forced to drop out. That is what it is reaching, Mr. Chairman. You have to be a friend of some­ body. I do not know who it is, the Premier or a Cabinet minister, but, Mr. Chairman, we are rapidly reaching the stage in this Province where the son of a fisherman or a miner or a logger or a factory worker or a civil servant will not be able to get a post-secondary education. I think that is one o£ the most cruel things of all in 794

March 22, 19B4 Tape 292 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: the budget. And, you know, Mr. Chairman, I have to say this, I tell you what the psychology is in Ne,-rfoundland at the present time. The psycholo gy is this , and the Premier has the popu­ lation conditioned .by these ads that he buys in newspapers and by taking to television and making Province-wide b :oad­ casts . Here is the psychology: 795

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 293 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: And every day you talk to people you can hear this; they say, "Well, boy, I am lucky to have a job. I cannot say ·anything because I am lucky to have a job." The government will put on a three year wage freeze, "Well, I cannot say anything, I am lucky to·have a job." The government will punish sickpeople and people who are dying, punish people on social assistance, they say, "Boy, we are lucky, I suppose 1 to be getting it." Now that is the psychology today in this Province, Mr. ~~. What kind of a psychology would you call that? What kind of a psychology is it?

Is it a negative psychology? Mr. Olail:!nan, how low have we sunk in this Province when a man or a woman will have to look you straight in the eye and say, "I know it is wrong, I know it is cruel, I know it is sadistic, I know it is malicious, I know it is the result of Toryism," Mr. Cha~, "I know it is wrong,but I suppose I am lucky to have a job." What kind of psychology is that? Well, Mr. Chainrem, whatever kind of psychology it is that is the kind of thinking we have in this P~ovince today as a result of the brainwashing and the conditioning of the Premier.

Why,this did not happen in Nazi Germany when Hitler was trying to brainwash the German people, Mr. ChainMn. He had Dr. Goebbels,his minister of propaganda. The Premier is his own propaganda machine. And what he does, he takes to the airwaves and in a very sadistic way he tells the people of this Province, "Boy, tighten your belt. She is going to be tough. Tough times ahead." He is saying to you taxpayers, "You tighten your belt," while he himself flies around in chartered planes. 796

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 293 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: They grounded the King Air, we shamed them into it, and now they are using a plane that was used for aerial photography and they are chartering independent planes from private ai~lines to fly them around. MR. DINN: . plane. MR. NEARY: I have never been on that That is what they are doing now. The Premier says, "Tighten your belts, tough times," vlhile he charters planes to fly him around hither and yon. Then he goes down in his private dining room, Mr. Chairman, a private dining room. HR. PATTERSON: MR. NEARY: Joey's old dining room~ When Mr.

Smallwood ran that dining room it paid its way, Hr. Chairman. It was Frank Moores who changed the policy. MR. MORGAN: It is unbelievable. He used to eat there every evening. MR. NEARY: silence, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : I would like to be heard in Order, please! Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Every glass of sherry ~,ras a cost plus contract! Oh, pay its way! MR. NEARY: "Yes, up, you practice restraint, you taxpayers, you tighten tighten your belt while I go down in my private dining room and live in the lap of luxury." And, Mr.

Chairman, "You taxpayers tighten your belt while I drive around in your Eagle car and give it to my buddies to go off rabbit hunting, You tighten your belt. And you tighten your belt while I make all these political appointments.'' 797

March 22, 1984 Tape No . 293 NM - 3 MR . MORGA;.~ : He is not driving in a chauffeur- driven limousine like Joey used to do \>Then vou ~·!ere a minister . MR . CJ{AIRMAN (Aylward) : Order , please ~ MR . NEARY : Mr . Chaiman, a week . ago the hen. gen tl eman - MR . MORGAN : Joey Smallwood ~ad a bodyguard too. MR . CH.AI RMAN: Order, please~ MR. NEARY : - go t down and rolled in the gutter . I have no intention, Mr . Speaker - MR. MORGAN : Collecting books, books .~:~aid for by the Meufoundland ta>C!>ayer. MR. CHAIRMAN : MR. NEARY : MR. cHAI rut.IAN : Orde r, please ~ Order, please ~ Name him, Mr. Chairman .

Orde r, please ~ I wish to inform all hen . members that the hen . member has the right to be heard in silence .~ I wish to inform the hen . the Leader of the Opposition (loir . ~eary) that his time has elapsed . DR . COLLI .NS : Shall the resolution carry? Mr. Chairman. 798

March 22, 1984 Tape 294 PK - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, just a brief comment on some of the hon. Leader of the <:pposition's (Mr. Neary) remarks. I mean,his remarks really got that ' old-fashion;d ring about them, you know. Do you ever watch these movies on television you know when they bring in the black and whites? It is rather charming to watch them, You know, it brings back nostalgic _.memories of old-fashioned things, Look at the clothes they wear and the restrained manners.

The girls wear boxey jackets, the cars have funny radiator grills to them and it is all very weird and wonderful, rather quaint and charming, but nevertheless ,you know, completely different from modern life. There is no reality to it. The han. Leader of the Opposition's remarks are exactly like that. You know 1 harkening back to the old days, the old remarks about the ministers doing this, and the Premier is doing that, and the members opposite doing the other thing, It is all old nonsense. You know, it has no relevance to the real facts facing this Province at the present time. For instance,the han.

Leader of the Opposition mentioned,you know,something new in this House: Here we are, we did not open the House until some time in March or whatever. He did not spring out the point that there is indeed something new about this House of Assembly. We now have a totally new legislative session sitting in the Fall which was never there before, and this is where we put our legislation through.

Previously 1 in the relatively short sitting in the Spring,there had to be the Throne Speech, there had to be the Budget Speech, and so on and so forth;in addition 1 all the legislation had to be packed into a smaller number of weeks. What we are doing now is a totally new era, a must more efficient era, a much more effective era. We have 799

March 22, 1984 DR. COLLINS: MR. MARSHALL: estimate· stuff again , is he? DR. COLLINS: Tape 294 PK - 2 weeks - He is complaining about the Oh, yes. The . same old thing, you know. We have a number of weeks in the Fall where we get through the bulk of uur legislation ,and then we h·ave the sitting in the Spring primarily for the Throne Speech and supply of various sorts,and then for the necessary legislation that comes out of supply and also a few legislative rnaiters of some urgency. Sirnilarly,the Leader of the Opposition we are bringing in interim supply now because we want to get out of the House.

Well, when would we bring in interim supply? Would we bring it in after the beginning of April? by which time we will have to close down government because we would have no authority to spend. We have to bring in interim supply and get it through this House before ~he end of March or government has to stop, no services could be given . The hon. member opposite talked about, you know, health services. We would have to close up all of the hospitals on ·1 April, they would not have any authority to spend money. The public servants, he is talking about public servants and being hard on public servants.

He wants us to delay interim supply so that after 1 April we would not be able to pay them, we would have to send them all horne. So , those are all :· old-fashioned ideas that the ·~ n. ~~ader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) comes out with, with very little relevance at all to what is going on in the Province today. And it is a pity in a way because one would like him to get a new record really. You know after sitting here week after week, month after month, year after year, you really get so tired of the same ol~ comments that you are hard driven to argue against them because you have used BOO

"' March 22, 1984 Tape 294 PK - 3 DR. COLLINS: eve~y logical argument there is, but he still keeps coming back with the same old remarks and finally you run out of steam yourself, you have to say, all right forget it, and just sit down and let it go. Mr. Chairman, I wish there were some other comments that the .han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Near.

y) brought up that really I could respond to so that I get out some new information, But he left ~ with very little. One thing he said about students; he said we are hammering the students. The students in the vocational schools anyway, in ' the trade schools, ·their fees are going to go up 5 per cent. Now, Mr. Chairman, the inflation rate is about .S per cent, so all the schools are doing is that they are keeping the tuition up with the level of inflation. There is no increase in real terms in tuition costs, Ehey are just keeping up with the depreciating value of money.

And as far as having to be a rich man's son to go to the trade schools, the fee is $210 per semester. You know, I am not saying that $210 is nothing but it is a relatively small amount to pay for an element of post-secondary education 801

March 22,1984 Tape No. 295 ah-1 DR.COLLINS: whereby these students acquire skills which will allow them to earn their livelihood and probably will stay with them the rest of their days. So it is a cost, there is no doubt about it, but it is a modest cost. · ' I was talking to the President of the University the other day and he tells me that there is going to be something like 14,000 students of all sorts going through all aspects of Memorial University, both the campus here and the campus on the West Coast, 14,000.

There has never been that number of students going to university before ~ And , of course, in our vocational schools and the trade school and so on there are thousands and thousands of other students. Our student body now in post-secondary institutions is the highest it has even beeno So to say that we are preventing in some way students going into post-secondary institutions, again, it just has this old-fashion,strangely irrelevant ring about it. Mr. Chairman, remarks I move the resolution. with those MR.HISCOCK: MR.CHAIRMAN(Aylward): Eagle River. MR.HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman.

The han. member for I will be rather brief, Mr. Chairman,. whati would like to deal with is what the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) has just said. He claims the reason why there is a record number of students is probably because of government incentive 1 .and there is also the possibility that the financial situation for students is not burdensome to them. The reason 802

March 22,1984 . Tape No. 295 ah-2 MR.HISCo"CK: why these 14,000 students are there, Mr.Chairman, is because we have more students corning out of our high schools than ever before. We have more students looking for.jobs than ever before. We have more students unemployed than ever before. But it would appear that there is one form of logic for the goose and another form of logic for the gander. The Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins)says that the reason why the trade school tutition was increased by 5 per cent is to allow the institution to keep up with inflation.

I assume, with that logic, we will hear also that the university has to put up their -tutition by 5 per cent to keep up with inflation. But is the Minister of Finance doing that for civil servants? No. He is not giving them an increase in wages of 5 per cent, he is giving them a freeze. Is the Minister of Finance giving the hospitals a rate increase of 5 per cent? No, he is not. He is putting a freeze on for three years.

So if you follow the minister's logic it is okay for the trade school to keep up with inflation and increase tuition fees by 5 per cent, but it is not all right for government to give an increase of 5 per cent or even ~ per cent to the civil servants, to the hospitals, or to the schools. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that we are finding now with the Grade Xll students corning out of school and corning onto the job market, and with those who are going into post­ secondary education, is a feeling of anxiety, not knowing if they will get :a job after they do the two year course at the trade school, or the three year course, or the five 803

March 22,1984 Tape No. 295 ah-3 MR.HISCOCK: year course at the university, and corning out not knowin~ if they will be able to pay off their student loans. Because they are getting loans now, not grants. I remember when I went to Memorial University. One of the .rnain things that allowed me to go to university, and a good many like me, was being able to get grants. It gave students the opportunity to go to university, Mr.Chairrnan, or to vocational or trades schools to further their careers. MR.DINN: Provincial grants. MR. HISCOCK: I am quite aware where they carne from.

But the Minister of Labour, who is interrupting, will also remember salaries being paid to university students under the Smallwood administration. We do not have salaries for university students now, we have the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) saying, ~Well, the reason why there is a 5 per cent increase in tuition at the trade school, is to keep up with inflation.' So we are putting the increase in these institutions on the backs of future generations. And not only that, we are borrowing so much money, $250 million, to pay off our debt, and that is just the interest.

We are borrowing $170 million for capital this year, and last year we had a $65 million surplus. We are not only telling the students that they 804

...!. March 22, 1984 Tape No. 296 HJ - l MR. HISCOCK: have got to pav more in order to keep those institutions going, wre are denving them job . prospects for the future, and we are demanding them, as they get older, to pay for the mistakes that this government have made with linerboard, with the false start up of the Lower Churchill, and with the bung~ing of the super port and the loan board, and one can go on and on and on. This is what this government has done to the students of this Province. We find, Mr.

Chairman, that the students are being completely neglected and the attitude is if you want a post-secondary education - maybe they are copying a former Minister of .Finance in this House, who is now an MP, Mr. Crosbie, maybe they are taking their cue from him when he said, 'Well, when I went to university I paid mv way so, therefore, allow the students to pay their ~'lay.' Well, we know, Mr. Chairman, ~..rhen a person of that caliber had to pay his way he orobablv had a car to drive to university, a job in the Summer, and a job whenever he wanted it. Mr.

Speaker, what is being done to post­ secondary education in this Province is one of the greatest crimes of this administration. I remember when I was in university marching on. the Confederation Building against the former Premier and occupying the A.dministration Building, and also marching on the A~erican Consulate. Little did I think that I would be standing here and listening to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) saying, 'Well, the reason for the increase of 5 per cent is to keep uP to the rate of inflation.' These institutions are user~pay now.

It is the user-pay system for post-secondarv education in this Province. I remember also, Hr. Chairman, when we had to go to the UK when we needed doctors, when we needed special nurses we had to go to the UK, and Vi'hen we needed dentists 805

r~arch 22 ., 1984 Taoe No. 296 · HJ - 2 MR. HISCOCK: we had to go to the UK. And we still have to go outside the Province to get dentists. We have our medical school now, but if you want a dentist to come here this government '"ill give them $10,000 to set up their practise, and they sign a contract.saying that they will remain in this Province .for three years. ~7hat about our younger people, t~e people who are in university, in premed, who \'Tauld love to have the opportunity to do dentistry? ~vhere is our programme to send them awa y or to start a dentistry school here, or a predentistry school?

Ne do not have one, yet we have $10,000 to bring somebod y in. And what happens? You will find that they come here for a short while and then leave because of \'larking conditions in these clinics, or because their equipment is ·inferior, it is old, it is outdated and needs replacement. So it is a Catch-22, and it goes around and around and around in circles. But, Mr. Chairman, we are finding that we have a lost generation almost of trade school students corning out nmv with no jobs , corning from university \'Ti th no jobs.

And now the Grade XII students are comin~ onto the job market, and coming into post-secondary education and thev are being told, 'Pay your own \vay, \ve cannot 806

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 297 SD - 1 MR. HISCOCK: help you anymore. We got the highest debt in the country., We got the highest taxes in the country. We got the highest rate of unemployment so, there{ore, students we cannot help you'. That ~s what they are telling the youth of our Province who want to go on and become dentists, who want to go on and become petroleum ~ngineers, who want to become doctors, who want to become miners, who want to become journeymen in the various trades. That is what they are telling them. MR. TULK: Totally incompetent. MR.

HISCOCK: Totally incompetent are not words that should be used for this · government, they are too good for them. MR. TULK: MR. HISCOCK: MR. TUL~ MR. HISCOCK: Too easy? It is not too easy. We are too easy 'on them. It is the completely opposite. This government has given up its responsibility to govern altogether, has given up · entirely. And the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is one of the ones who would agree with this in private more so than in his political capacity. SOME HON. ·MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: But they have given up their responsibility to govern completely.

And the budget proved this and the Throne Speech proved this. They are going from one crisis to another. Ever ything that was in this Throne Speech, everything, was the result of a crisis. MR. MORGAN: The people in the press gallery are being bored to death. MR. HISCOCK: If the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) does not want to listen to me he can go down to his office and try to work on getting a deal on the Northern Development Corporation, or do some of the work that 807

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 297 SD - 2 MR. HISCOCK: h.e is supposed to do for the fishermen of this Province. But, Mr. Chairman, I do want to use this ten minutes to say to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the Premier, they have given up their res·pqnsibility to govern altogetherland have completely neglected the future of our Province. Somewhere down the line we are going to need our people and they will not :Oe trained. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Order, please! elapsed. MR. HISCOCK: MR. RIDEOUT : MR. CHAIRMAN: White Bay. MR.

RIDEOUT : The han. member•s time has Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. . Chairman. The han. member for Baie Verte - Mr. Chairman, I think I would like to have a word or two on some of the comments made by my friend from Eagle River (Mr. Ris:cock) . I' noticed with some interest he was attempting to talk - well, I suppose, paint with the whole broad b:L'ush and try to talk about everything, . But I noticed with some interest some of the comments that the hon. gentleman made on the education system.

And two or three times in his re:rqarks· he referred to the user-:-pay system that we have now insti ·tuted in this Province, He has accus·ed th .e government and the administration of downgrading the delivery of the education system in the Province to such an extent, Mr. Chairman - MR. TULK: CrnaudibleJ Baie Verte. MR. RIDEOUT : I' did not interrupt the hon. gentleman while he was speaking. I only have ten minutes, I just want to make a brief point. He accused the administration of try ·ing to downgrade th .e delivery of the education system 808

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 297 SD - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: in the Province to such an extent that now it is a user-pay system. !'~Jell, perhaps, Mr. Chairman, it might be interesting to explore that concept a little bit. Let me just take an example that I am perhaps most familiar with and that is the District Vocational School in Baie Verte. The hon. gentleman may have tried to make a great narangue about an increase of five dollars a semester, I believe it is, ten dollars over a year 1 in the cost of student registration fees at the vocational schools.

Well,let me take the example of the vocational school in Baie Verte.in mv own constituency, and explore that for a second just to see whether the user-pay concept that he is talking about holds any water. This present year there is approximately 100 students enrolled at the vocational school in Baie Verte. MR. NEARY: That is not very many. MR. RIDEOUT : No, it is not very many of them. The reason, Mr. Chairman, is because of MR. NEARY~ MR. RIDEOUT: Is the government going to keep it open? - of declining enrollment, Yes, the government certainly is intending to keep it open.

But sometimes· it varies .. '!'here has never been any more than 125 130, 140 th.ere since the school was ,built fourteen or fifteen years ago, but there is· approximately 100 there now·, it might be 110, it might be a few one way or another. They pay $200 a semester, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: It is a nice school. MR. RIDEOUT: It is a very nice school.. . They pay $200 a s-emester,whlch means that they are collecting in student fees· from the student enrollment of that school, $20 ,, 00.0 a semester. That is what the st~dents are paying towards the cost of their education.

Now what do we find in the salary estimates· tabled with the budget? The cost of administering,. that is not counting the cost of supplies or anything of that nature, nut the cost of administering and paying th.e salary· 809

March 22 , 1984 Ta_l'e No. 297 SD - 4 MR . RIDEOUT: units and the administration costs of the district vocational school in Baie Verte for the next fiscal year will be $616,800 . And the bon. gentleman talks about the user -pay education system . $616,000 will be spent in salaries and on the other things that you must provide to administer that institution,and yet you can have people tr y to make the argument that 810

March 22, 1984 Tape 298 EC - l· MR. RIDEOUT: we have downgraded the education system in this Province to such an extent that we now have a user-pay system. Well, Mr· Chairman,everybody knows, anybody can look at the figures in the budget and see that . that is silly, it is nonsense, it has no foundation in fact, it has no foundation in imagination, it has no foundation in anything except the ability and the desire to try to twist fact into the figment of somebody's imagination. Now that is the only foundation that it has anything in.

I heard also the han. gentleman make some reference; and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) as well, to reductions in the amount of student aid that we are spending in this ProvincP.. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) .thousand dollars. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, the hon. gentleman did not ask any questions about that in Question Period yesterday. I do not think he asked any questions about it in Question Period today. But he made some reference to it once yesterday in a

preamble or something in his debate, more than questions of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). But the fact of the matter is, Mr.Chairman, that there have been ongoing negotiations between the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) , between representatives of the student body at the university and the other major educational institutions in the Province and there has been, not a reduction, Mr. Chairman, but a realignment more consistent with the way that the students ,.want to see it done, to their advantage. It is more advantageous for them.

They will not be getting one cent less, not one copper less, not one penny less, but the system will be more advantageous for them in the way that the grants are paid out and it will also have some ad­ vantages for the government in its fiscal dealings. 811

March 22, 1984 Tape 298 EC - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: Now, that is what is taking place. And over the next while I am sure there will be some of the details come out. But they could come out today, they could have come out yesterday if there had been any of those penetrating questions that the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Neary) refers to when he gets on his feet. If there had been any of those penetrating questions, Mr. Chairman, there is a 'full,reasonable, logical, sensible explanation for the difference in the figures in the budget.

It does not mean that the students of this Province are one cent worse off, in fact they are not; in fact they will be better off because in fact the new system is something that they have been looking for for the last number of years. It is an innovative system, it is a system that will be advantageous for them and it also has some advantages for the Province. Now, is there anything wrong with that, Mr. Chairman? Then, Mr. Chairman, you have people like the han. the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) get up and mruce those wild exaggerations that you are cutting the guts out of the system, that you are operating a user-pay system in this Province in terms of education. And then he goes on to make all kinds of wild statements that, you know, •you did the same with the hospitals last year'. Mr. Chairman, do you remember the debates in this House last year when they were trying to turn a 12 per cent increase into a decrease, when they were trying to turn a 12 per cent increase into a cutback? That was the thrust of the budgetary debate in this House last year. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr.

McNicholas l : Order, please! I would like to interrupt the han. member for a second to announce 812

March 22, 1984 Tape 298 MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): for the Late Show. EC - 3 there are no questions The hon. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERf: 6h, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, there it is again. We saw that week after w·eek in this House last Fall, we saw it week . after week in the House last Spring and again today we hear the hon. the Leader of the Opp·osi tion (Mr. Neary) saying, 'Oh, the House is not open long enough.

You want to get the House closed, you want to keep it closed as much as you can.' And there is one period every Thursday when the Opposition can put three questions on what we call the Late Show to try to get further information on answers that they are not satisfied with. Now, Mr. Chairman, how sincere can the Opposition really be in their accusations?

How sincere are they in their accusations when after Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday, after three days, when we get to Thursday that all the questions they have asked in the thirty minute Question Period each day, that is ninety minutes of questioning time, all the questions they have asked, every answer must be perfectly satis­ factory? They must be perfectly satisfied, perfectly happy with the answers that they have gotten from the administration.

The question on student aid, for example, that the Leader of the Opposition referred to yesterday, if he were really interested in getting more detail on that, what more appropriate place to put that question than a five minute debate on the Late Show this evening so that he would have an opportunity to say what he wanted to say· and the Minister o£ Education (Ms Verge) would have an opportunity to tell exactly what is going on in the Student Aid programme. That is what 813

March 22, 1984 T!"'pe No. 299 'NM - l MR. RIDEOUT: period is all about. They have questioned hospital cutbacks, they talked yesterday about hospital bed closures. There is obviously no great concern. There cannot be any great concern or there would be a member on his feet at five-thirty this evening to debate with the Min~ster of Finance (Dr. Collins)- the Minister of Health (Mr. House), . is not well, he is not here, but to debate with c~rtainly the Minister of Finance all those cutbacks and all those bed closures that they were _ talking a~out yesterday in Question Period. So, Mr.

Chairman, the only conclusion one can come to is that those questions are ·questions of record, those questions are raised not as much to seek information or to get information as to try to highlight what the Opposition perceives to be what people out there want to hear. They want to hear tell of the negatives. All they want to hear tell of are the negatives. They do not want the answers. They do not want the genuine, logical ,reasonable answers that exist.

We are doing interim supply here this evening, there are several million dollars,the minister read out 1 in capital works programmes included in this interim supply, HR. DINN: MR. RIDEOUT: $51 million in ne'" prograr.unes. $51 million for new programmes in roads and bridges,and new programmes in this, and new programmes in other things. There are no questions about that · The new hospital construction down in Burin­ Placentia West and down in Clarenville, no questions about that because that might get a positive piec