Volume XLI Wednesday Province of N ewfoundlarid FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush Number 9 7 June 1989

ThE! House met at 2:00p.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, pleas~?.! Statements by Ministers MR. KELLAND: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is my first MinistE!rial Statement, and I think it .is an important one. We were able to provide the critic from l:he other side with a copy WE!11 in advanCE! so that he could prepare a response, which wjll signify the importance of this particular precedent, becaUSE! tliat is what it is in this particular instance, Mr. Speaker. I would like to bring to the attenl:ion of the hon.

House a matter of significant importance . As many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are aware, the Phosphorus RE!duction Plant at Long Harbour OlAJrlE!d by Albright and Wilson Americas, commonly known as the 'EI~CO' plant, lAJ:i.1l c~~ase operation in the near future. This plant closurE! is a result: of the economic realities of declining world markets for phosphorus due to improved technology in the production of by-product chemicals . These realities add cold comfort for {:he people of this Province and the peoplE! of Long Harbour and near ·by communities in particular. l.3 99 JunE! 7, 1989 Vol XLI Mr .

Speaker, among the other initiatives this government is taking to manage thi .s situation, I am pleased to be able l:o announce that the environmental implications of this plant closure will be dealt with pursuant to the powers available to me under fhe EnvironrnE!ntal AssE!SSmE!nt Act. ThE! decommissioning plan will therefore be registered for technical and public review, following completion of which, I shall determine what Further environmental asses sment, if any, 'is required to ensure that this shutdown is handlE!d in an environmentally responsible manner. I should note, Mr .

SpE!aker·, that it is important to take !:hi s approach to assist thE! curJ"E:Hll owner in closing out the plant site in an environmen tally responsible mann er. Thi s procedure will also ensure tha t the Province does not bear the costs of clean~up and si te rehabilitation that should reasonably be borne by the current owner. Furthermore, we wi sh to avoid a situati.on in which a nE!lAJ e n t r e p r e n e u r , u.J h o 111 a y lAri s h t o u s e the existing plan t s ite or faciLitiE:~s, is discourar:3ed by the need to inves t capital in su ch clean-up and rehabilitation activity. I would conclude, Mr .

Sp eak er, by saying I am plea sed by Albright and Wi ls on AITIE !rica s' co- -opE!rati ve a n d r e s p o n s ·i b 1 e co r p o r a t e a t t i b.J d e toward:; thi. s initiaU.ve that wiJ. l go a long way to allm.u:ing us {:o deal with the subs tantial environmental irnplicat :.:Luns of t.hi s p1ant c]osure in an E!FF~i.c: i.ent and satisfactory manner . Mr. that Speaker, this undert:ak on in No. 9 I should add, al so, in itiative was U1e f·ir st in stan CE ! R3 99

by the Former administration, and what we arE! doing nmu is a continuation of the intention indicated by the former administration. I think it is a good thing. I think it is a precedent; it is the first time that any shutdown or closurE! was required to be registered under The EnviromnE!ntal AssessrnE!nts Act, and it may very well bode improved activities in that area for the future. Thank you. MR. HEWLETT : Mr. Sp(:~aker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Green Bay . MR. HEWLETT: Mr. SpeakE!r, I thank thE! hon. member for an advanced copy of his statement.

I am pleased that proper environmental procedures will bE! USE!d in · closing the Long Harbour plant. UnFortunately, howeVE!r, it appears that this governmc~nt has giVE!n up any hope that this operation can be saved and this is in stark contrast to the Liberal election platform. I wonder where the member · for Placentia (Mr. Hogan) is now? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! Well. said! MR. HEWLErT: I do hope that hE• will SE'E! to it, 1"1r. Speaker, that the governlnE !llt will take a leading and cornpassionat:t::~ role in SE!e::Lng l:hat the scio---econcomic impacts on thE! local population are minimized.

It is rather ironic that I have to react to !:.his statement today on the heels of a recessionary budget. Rather than welcoming a nE!I.IJ batch of NewfoundlandE•rs hornE! from the Mainland, we will be l.4-00 June 7, 1989 Vol X L.I sending more up there due to plant closures and higher taxes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear. hear! MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker, this political partiE!S, Conservative and Conservative . House has two the Progressive the Regressive Where have all the L.iberals gone, Mr. Speaker? Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER: Further Statements by Ministers? MR. GULl AGE: Mr. Sp.::1akE!r.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. SIMMS: His first statement too, I bet. MR. GULLAGE: First statement . That is corTE!Ct. Mr. Speaker. hon . mE!IflbE·rs of t:hE '! House of Assembly: I am pleased today to announce that government has approved $50,380,200 for the 1989 -1990 Municipal Capital Wor·ks Progr·am. Thi .s funding wiLL addre•ss thE ! most. p r (:~ s s i n g n e e d .~ s -.i. t r E! 1 a l: E! 1·. o municipal sc~rvi.cE!s such as waLE!r and SE!Wer faci.l:it :iE•s and r·oad constructi.on and paving.

The need to infrastructure evidenced by $163 million No . 9 pr·ovide rnun:i cJ.paJ. is 91"eat as :is lhe fact that some in FundLng \Alas R4-00

requested by municipalities from my department this year. To address all these needs at one time is beyond thE! ProvinCE! 1 S financial capacity, howeVE!r, I arn confident that the funds approVE!d this year will go a long way in addressing our most pressing needs, and the distribution of funding u.dlJ. rE!flect this. We have tried to be fair and equitable in the allocation, taking into consideration the most severe health and environmental COnCE!('nS. 1'-lr . Speaker, I wish to also inform this han.

HouSE! that WE• have initiated a comprehensive review of criteria USE!d to establish priori ties for the distr:i.but.ion of funding for municipal infrastructure. This admin:i.straU.ono has made it quite clear that fairness and balance will prE!VaiJ. in carTying out its mandate, and I can assure !:his House that these objectives wi11 be my objectives in establishing new criteria. I wish again to draw your attention l:o comments made by my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance, during his Budget Speech yesterday.

I reaffirm my department's commitment to investigatE! new innovative mE!thods and technolog:iE!S 1..1.1hich can be adapted to thjs Province's harsh terrain and weather conditions, and the objective of this initiative is l:o provide adequate services in a more economical manner, thus allowing the jnstallation of a greater number of services for the dollars available. At the present time, t:he average cost of a water and SE!l..uer hook- -·UP in Newfoundland is some $22,000. This cost per service is one of thE! highE!St in Canada, so it -.is obv :ious we must L401 June 7, 1989 Vol.

XLI explore all possibilities in an attempt to lessen the financial burden to the taxpayers of our Province. And Further to this, Mr. Speaker, my department:. u.d.ll be eliminating the duplication of services among the many municipalities throughout the Province - servi ces such as wa sb?. disposal, fire protection, recreational facilities and other municipal infrastructure. This will be done through the integration and amalgamation of exisl:ing SE!rvicE! s by mE!ans of regional service agencies and/or the amalgamation of municipalities . SOME HON. MEMig .. Jt§ : Hear, hear! MR.

GULLAGE: Mr -·:·· Speakc~r, anol:her init ial:.:ivc~ I will. be pursuing irnrnedia'l.E!ly as j t relates to the provi si on of municipal infrastructure, is a l~eview of \:hE! municipal grant system in our Province. This wil l include an indE!pl:h revi(~U.J of l:he ab:U.ity of our many munj_d .paliU .es to 1neet Ull ?.ir financ ial obligaU.ons, again, our obj ecU ves of fairness and balance will be pursued. Mr . Speaker, we haVE! comE! a Jong lAJay in the prov ision of municipal infr·ast.ructurE! to our ma11y municipalities, however, we st i ll have a long way to go to compl.E!te the job .

I 1..uanl : l:o ensure l:hal: every Newfoundlander and Labradorian is l:rc::!al: .ed fatr1y .in the process and I can a~;surE• you that my department will take whatE!VE!r action nE !CE!SSar·y to br=i ng this about. Thank you, Mr . Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 9 R40 l.

MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: rhe han. the member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to, first of all, thank the minister for a copy of his staternE!nt, which carne to rny oFfice before rny coming herE! to thE! House. I lAJant to welcome the statement by the minister today; he has come in with a $50 million capital program.

I do not want to downplay the significance of the $50 million capital program, but I have to say, as well, that I do not know if it represents the large increase that the minister sa·.id wouJ.d bE! forthcoming t.o t.hE! municipalities all across NE!Wfoundland and Labrador, bE! cause the previous government did last year have a $43 mjllion capital progr·am. It is an incrE•ase, and we welcome the increase the minister has brought in here today, but it is not thE~ big, significant increase that municipaJ.ities around thE! Province are expecting from this government. Now, Mr.

Speakc~r. while the statement is positive in one respc~ct, it lE!aves many, 111any questions that are not yet answer·ed. The most blar·-.ing question that remains unanswered is: Where is the detailed breakdown of thE! capital projects tha l: l:he minis l:ers opposite wanted from rnE:~ last YE!ar? Where is t.hE! detailed breakdown, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, he~ar! this member, when I lkJas Minister of Municipal Affa:i.rs, on t.he tabl-.ing of the program il:sc~lf, the detailed program itSE!lf, so I l.~oJant to ask the minister: WherE! is \:he detailE!d breakdown of the capi taJ. program this year?

Is the minister attempting, Your Honour, to circurnVE!nt the House by com:i.ng in here today with his funding being announced in a block and no detailed breakdown given to the members, given l:o the pE!Ople of thE! ProvinCE!? Members always requested - no, Mr. Speaker, they nE!Ver rE!qUE•stE!d U1c•y always demanded that a detailed listing be giVE!I1 to l:he HouSE! and I I.IJouJ.d ask the m: i.nist.E!r to co111E:! in here as soon as possible with a detailed brE•akdown of what t·.hE• capt tal projects are. ThE!re is no rE!ason IAlhy, bE!forE! thE!

HouSE! closes today, Mr. ~3pE!akE!r, I.: hE! minister should not be abJe to come back 11Jith a detailed listing of whE!rE! it. is. If therE! :i.s one thing that has bc!en the hall1T1ark and the cornerstone of this government, according to members oppositE!, it is faJrness, reasonableness, equality and openness. How arE• wE:! as an Opposi t:ion, Mr. Sp1: 'aker, qo :ing l:o make a determination as to whether or not that fairnE!SS and balance i s here , that thE! rrd. n :i. s t E· r and t he govc~rnmE!n\: said \:hat they IAJer'E• going to have? We want the list. We have to scrutinize it. We have~ l:o evaluate it.

We have to brE!ak it down and we have to go over it with a fine-toothed comb to ensure that the fa:ir·ness and equality that thE! m:i.nistE!r has bE!E!n t.a] king about is present. MR. SPEAKER : MR. DOYLE: Order, pled.se! We had members oppositE! crucifying L/1.02 June '7, 1989 Vol XU No. 9 1\402

The hon . elapsed. MR. SPEAKER: ·- ~ ........ ,_,_ gE!ntlernan 1 s U .me has Before getting into Oral Questions, on behalF of hon. members I would like to welcome to the Galleries a delegation from the Council of Newtown, in the historic District of Bonavista North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The Council is represented by councillors Mr. Wayne Perry, Mr. Barry Tucker, Mr. Charlie Norris and Town Manager, William Norris. Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker .

EVE!n I tA.Jould haVE! t:o admit, in hope for favours later on. that they indeE!d do have a fine mE!mber for Bonavis ta North. My qUE!stion. Mr. Speaker, quite natura Jly today is to the MinistE!Y' of FinancE!, thE! wordless numerator and denominator of the Province as of last night. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hE!ar! MR. MATTHEWS : I would like to refer the hon. minister to Page 11 of his document lAJhore he says: 11 Mr.

Speaker, the unauditE!d rE•suJ.t.s for the 1988 -89 fiscal year indicate that Government ended the year tArith a deficit on CurrE!nt Account of $2. 1 rni Ilion. 11 IndE!E!d, further on in the paragrd.ph, Mr. Speaker, L.4.0 3 June 7, 1989 Vol X L.I hE! says: 11 The total budgetary rE!qirelriE!nt WaS then~ rol~e ~~3 4- mi.JJ.ion less than Budget. 11 The government indeed last year spE!I1't $34 million less than it budgEd:ed.

So I lAiant: to ask the minister to stand in his place today answer for this House and thE! people of the ProvinCE!. why he indeed is trying to mislead the people of the Province and the members of this House by saying that the deficit hE• :i.nhE!r:i .tE!d was much larger? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Finance . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.

KITCHEN: I am not too sure what he means by 1 inhE!ri ted the dE:~fic.i t:. 1 Whun tAJB were presented with the prel-.irninary budget papE!rS lAJh .i.c h had been drafted, presumably by the previous group, the current account projected deficit was in the vicinity of $90 mill.ion $88.3 or something of that nature. $90 rnil1ion roughly. This particul.ar amount was c1early unacceptable to us in view or: our determination to be fiscally responsible . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! DR. KITCHEN : Mr.

SpE!akE!r, thE! prE!Vi.ou s adrn-.in :istrat:-.ion had b c~ un skal": .ing dangerously clo se to our credit rating. and tAlE! had det1 :!rrn:Lned l::hat we tAJould takE! par·t:i cuJ.ar ai1n at. not lett ::i ng that happE•n. WE.' h."!d decided that we were going to come up with a balan ce d, or close to baJanced budget, and we did. SOM E HON. MEMBERS : Hear. hear ! No. 9 R403

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the memb er for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker, indE!ed wh~:~t happened was once this government set down its directions, policies, and programs it had a $90 million deficit. It. was s hart by $90 million, and what this rnin:ist:E!r did was inflict $95 million in additional taxes on the people of this Province. He stripped the skin off them, Mr . Speaker, and what. it. amounted to was $300 tax pt~r .YE!ar per woman, man and child in this Province . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . ~..!~. MATTH E\I'J.~: The han . gentleman, as welJ., says in his budget, Mr .

Speaker, l:hat we are not the heaviest taxed people in Canada, and then last night, on the public airways of the Province, he said he did not understand the formula for dE!tc~rmining !:hE! ta.x burden of this Province when you compare it to all provinces across the country. Mr. Speaker, why 1.1Jill the min:isl:er not stand in his place today and say that the real reason why he skinned the pE!Ople of the Province! yesl:c::~rday tAJith $95 million in additional taxes was because he misdirected and misunderstood the fiscal capacity of this Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKFR: The han. the Minister of Finance . Dl~. KITCHfN: Mr. SpeakE!r, WE! haVE! to be faj rly straightforward in what we say here. Tax effort can bE! explaine•d in simple terms or it can be L4-04 . JunE! 7, 1989 VoJ. XLI explained · in fairly co mpl ex terms. The simple- MR. TOBIN : I saw him on television last nigh t. DR. KITCHEN : Just a second, now! The simple ansW~;!r would bE! that a taxpayer in Newfoundland with a certain income woul .d be paying less overall tax than if he had resided in seVE!ral other Canad ia n provinces.

As a matter of fa ct our averagE:~ t/Jas slighi:ly belot/J l:hP national averagE!. No!AJ, in spj lE! of the misconcepi:ion t:hat tnany peopJ.e haVE! that l/JE• ar·~:! thE• mo":t overtaXE!d P''~ople in Canada, !·:hat: is simply not so . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Spe•aker, lE! t: me continUE! for· a minute and I will explain it a ljttle bit further. The reason t/Jh y o t h E• r p eo p 1 e arE! rncw e h ~:!a v i 1 y taxed has to do with the heavy municipal and school taxes that are lEwied in oUH:!r provinc es whc~re it is done basically on a property tax .

The property tax throughout many provinces of Canada For rnunicipalitiE!S js qu.-it .E! large, as it is for school b::.txos. In this Province, ~~xcept for' sorne areas, the municipal taxr,~s al"u not particularly onerous, neither should they be, nor are school taxes. This is the reason for our effort in this Prov.lncc~ b1:!i.ng somewhat less than it is ~in th< '! rest of Canada . SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Grand Bank . No. 9 f\ lj.()lj.

MR. MATTHEWS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. For the first time, yesterday, in this Province, we saw this minister read a document here i7.hat imposed a growth and a fat. tax on the children of this Province through their clothing . A growth and a fat tax, that is what we have, Mr. Speaker. If onE! child grows faster than the other {:hey pay taxes, and if the other chiJ.d does not grow as fast, for· whatever rE!ason, thl':!rE! is no tax. ~)o, I just want to say to l:hE! minister, because he was too incompetent, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please!

I have been very patiently listening to the member, giving him great leeway, but as the member knows in a supplementary he should attE!ITipt to gE!t to his question as quickly as possible, and that is what I have been waiting for. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you VE!ry rnuch, fhat is exactly what to do, but I r'E!SpE!Ct view on that. Mr . Speah~r. I was trying Your Honour's In view of the fact that this particular minister, Mr.

Speaker, tAJas too incompetent, as judgE!d by his PrerrdE!r and his col1eagUE!S, to introduce an Interim Supply Bill in this House a few day s ago and then as we 11 , 1 as t n t g h t he admitted that he did not understand the formula, that he was confused about the numerator and thE! denominator, t,o..rill l:hE! minister do the honourable thing and go to the Premier's office and FAX his resignation to Montebello? SOME HON. MEMBERS : I_ /.j.Q

I) June '7, 1.989 Vol XLI Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: Are you not going to an swer the question? MR. SIMMS: You might as well answer, or we will be asking it every day, boy! MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of thE! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Specd<E!r, .il7. is obvious now that the Minister of Finance is inflictE!d again l:his LuE!Ok t,o..Lil:.h l.:hr::~ same disease he was inflicted with last week whc::~n he could not s'l:i:'lnd and defend Interim Supply. Mr.

Speaker, yestE!rday in l:.his infamous budget brought down by the han. the mini ster he attacked eVE!ry child in thts ProvinCE:' l,o..Jho t/Jcts not standard; if you do not come from thE! same rnou] d now, i.f you are different, if you are growing quickE>r', if you grov.J slower, you tAJr:'!rE! attackf:'d in l:hE· minister's budget yesterday . Now, Mr. Speaker, t,o..ri .ll i:h~:! rni ni s ter today tel1 t.h:i s HousE' tJ.Jhy he savagely dec'ided yesterday to bE!at up on the long and the sho1nt and the tal1, l:hE! peop1e of Newfoundland and Labrador? SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER : ThE! han. the M:i.n:.i.ster· of Finan CE:!. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, l:hE! 1naj or' pJ"oblem with thE! tax as :i.t. had bee n administE!J"ed was Lh E! t·:rE !mr:!l '1d ous loss of revenue bec ause of cheating. The way it tAJas administered, almost anyone before - No. 9 R/.!.05

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR. KITCHEN: Hang on now! The reason was we estimated we were losing $5 million a year on l:he system through people who were abusing the child tax credit to charge fur coal:s and things like that . You would go into any storE! and people would ask 1 Have you got your MCP car·d? 1 Many adults were abusing the chi .ld tax credit, one that is why we changed the system . Now, Mr. SpeakE!r, having said that I am going to admit because it is true, that this change of policy that t.i.Je introduced has hurt some children. Now, thE!re is no doubt about that .

What we have :in effect done is changE! thE! definition of child from one based on age to one based on size. That :is true and we IJJill admit it. But it is certainly better than the system we had before and, if we can find a bE!ttE!r system, thE!n we shall :implement :it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the MinisLE!r· of F'.i.nance is not blind and dumb, let him look around the galleries today and see that eVE!rybody is diffE!rE!nt. It is not. according to age, -Lt is accord ·ing to size and standard; now everybody has to fit that mould. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if the minister wanted to close lo opholes and save on the child 1 s exemption for sales tax on clothing, why could the minister not find a fair way of doing H:? Why could the rrd.nj.stE!r not do .it fairly, insl:E!ad of L406 JUnE! 7, 1989 VoJ XLI beating up on those people who grow slower, or grow faster t.han others? Why did t.he Mini st.E!r chose to do that, Mr . Speaker? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, if you look at it rationally, you wi1l rE!al ·ize th,~t infants and childrE!n of onE!

YE!ar, two years, three years, four years, five ye!ars, w~wn th e children are :in thE! fast changing size modE! of life, they aJ~ E! protected undE!r th is nE!W systum . What has been eliminated are adults, which this group oppositE! let gE:'t away w:lth let. J:.i .VE! for' so long, going in and abusing the systE!m, adults using thE! ch:i .1d tax crE!dit sysl:em to E!Vade t.axr:!s. lrJE! have stopped tax evasion. Unfortunately, as the member has quitE! properly said, WE! haVE! not found a way yet to help some people, but we will. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of thE!

Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker', it. :is too bad that the Minister of Finance cannot take a dose of his own medicine and rnatur'e accor'd.ingly. Min. SpE!akE!r, 1E!t me ask t.hE! Minish: !r of Finance this: When is the Minister of FinancE! going to J.:i ve u p to the b u z z wo r· d s of Ud. s administration - fairness and balance - and scrap this unfa ir discriminatory tax against the large and l:he taLl dnd t.hc~ fat dnd thE! husky and the chubby of t:h:.Ls ProvincE!? Wh(~n :i.s he going l:.o do that:? No. 9 R40Cl

SOME HON. MEMBERS : No ansu1er? No -a:·nswer? MR . RIDEOUT: The Wordless Wonder. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the HlE!ITibe r for· Fortune-Hermitage. MR. LANGDON : My question is also to the M-inister of FinancE!, Mr. Speaker·. At the recent leaders 1 debate at the un-.iversi ty, the s tudN1ts were adamant that there bE! no increasE! in tuition feos, and the Premier, along with the other two J.eaders, gave every indications that status quo would be maintained. WeJ 1, he has for'lrll:!d the gover·nmE!nt. No11J, Mr.

Speaker, will the minister tell this House, tell these students and thE! parents of this Province, why the sudden revc~rsal of commitment by this government where they now have hit these students with an unprecedented increase of 10 per cent in tuition fees for the 1989-90 university YE!ar? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. SpeakE!r, I takE! no joy in that particular point. But I would l.i ke to rna k e cortai n po:i nt s uri. th respE!Ct to the question ra:iSE!d by the han. member.

The tuition fees at Memorial are the lowest in Atlantic Canada and, as we go w(~st across Canada, they are lower than L/1.0'7 June~ 7, 1989 Vol XLI they are in most prov ·inces, and not only low, but much lower. That is somE!thing to be taken inl:o account. They have not been ra-.iSE!d that much and l:hE!Y cH'E! still lower than they are anywhere else in Atlantic Canada. MR. LANGDON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the ITIE!ITlbE!r for For·tunE! HermitagE!. MR.

LANGDON: In light: of !:he recont royal commission report that indicated that well-educatod people in Newfoundland and Labrador had a comparably equal chance of employment with their Canadian counterparts, is Uris gover·n1nonl: advocating the Trudeau phLlosophy, that students who attend unjversity should pay 100 pE!r CE!nl: of \:.he cost since, IIJhen l:hey graduate, thE!Y wouJ.d bE· the onE!S who would have the h.ighE!St pay:-Lng jobs and reap most bonefit from university graduation? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear·, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: The answer ·.i.s no.

But. <.'l.t the sanw time I l:hink we better face a true fact. ThE! true facl: is that Lhr:::• pE!OplP who carne out: of univE•rsity are .in a much better pos:il:ion to gE!t whaLE!VE!r jobs therE• ar'E! than pE!Ople who do not. So :Ln a sunsE• what we are saying is l:hat the education of un.iVE!r'sity sl:ud( !nl:s helps them secure good positions in soc:iE!ty. And it can prop< :!rly bE! said that pE!OplE• shouJd pay t.o some extent For the cost of the bE!nefit t:hat they reCE!iVE' :i.n 1atE·r· No. 9 1;: /1.0'7

life. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LANGDON : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . Ml~. SPEAKER: The hon. the rnernbE!r for' FortUnE! - Hermitage. Ml~. LANGDON: After the minister has admitted that this is indeed the Trudeau philosophy that you are expounding, is the government saying to thE! sons and daughtriH'S of ordinary Newfoundlanders that the university is no longer open to thE!m, that its doors are just to the rich? Is that what the minister is saying? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. KITCHEN : Mr. Spt::~akE!r. MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: No, Mr.

Speaker, we are not saying that at all. rhis government is committed to extending university facilities across the Province, and we shaJ l do so. We have madE:~ that quite clear in our Throne Speech and in our Budget Speech and everything that we stand for. So there is no question about that, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hel-lr, hear! MR . MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker . MR_: SP~_I}_KE~: The hon. the member for Grand Bank. 1..11-0 8 JunE! 7, 1989 Vo1 XLI MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Em p 1 o y me n t a n d L a b o u r R E<l a 1: :i o n s (Ms Cowan), and I hope she does not classtfy Newfoundlanders as tax evaders and cheaters in her answer, which is what he called thE!ln. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Mr . SpE!aker, yesterday in th e Budget Speech the minister indicated that there was an evaluation of the Private Sector Employment PrograHJ undertakE!n. Havtng left that departJnE!nt just tJAJO months ago, E!VE!ry :i.nd:i.cat ion 1 had as minister, fi"Oin t.he pE!Ople in the department. and thE· pi":i .vate sector of thE!

Province, t.!Jas ver·y positiVE! . I want to ask t:hE• minister tJ..Jas th E!rE! a propr::•r evaluation done of the program? Who did \:he evaluation? Has thE! minister seen the evaluation? And will the minister table the evaluation in this House? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MS COWAN: Mr. Speakc~r . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minist er of Employment and Labour Relat io ns . MS COWAN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The Pr'ivat :e Se ct.or ErnpJ.oymE-n t Progr ·am is a progr 'd ln l~ hal: . t.iJE! ukHl t to replaC E! with someLh:i n~1 t.ha·L :.is more appropriate.

We have some very, very fundamental qu es tions about that parti cular prog ram in that it d:i .d not providE! Jong- -tE! r'm No. 9 1\408

relief to people who employment. It was short-term employment . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MS COWAN: nE•E!d only A study of the look at thE! prog r·arn, show employment rate remains as low the beginning. statistics, if we cliE!nts of that us that the of those people now as -.it did in SOME HON. MEMBERS: Not true! Not true! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Grand Bank . MR. WARREN: You are gE!tting coaching frorn thE! Minister of Education . MR. MATTHEWS : Mr .

Speaker, we still do not know if the minister saw the E!Valuation, who did it. or if she cvill table it. Rut I would just like to inform thE! minister· that 65 per CE!nt of those E!rnployed in the Private Sector Employment Program were employed beyond the subsidy period, and 30 per cent of those employed turned into full- -time jobs. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! rnE!rnber is to han. So in I again remind the han. that the hon. mE!rnber' s job ask the question, and the member is not doing that. 1:he supplementary I would hon. TTIE!rnber· to p1E!asr:~ get ask I: he to the L409 JunE! 7, 1989 Vol XLI question. MR.

MATTHEWS: 'fhank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I guess some of us aujust to our r·oles quicker than othE!rs. REd ng a minister I was used to being asked long questions from over here. So I would have to say to t:hE! SpE!aker tha •t he has probably adjusted to his position quicker than I am adjusting to mine. I would just like to rE!peat again that 65 per cent of those employed were employed beyond the subsidy period, and 30 per cent turned into full--timE:~. So I want: t.o ask t:he minister: Does she knotAJ how many applications ar'E• on file?

Would she tell this Housr:.~ hou.J llldny appltcaU .ons are on fi:I.E! rtght not~J For thE! Pr·ivate Sec-tor Employment Program in her department? How many? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN : I cannot give you that answer with any assurance now. I have one i.n mind but I would be hesitant to give it. I certainly can find that out for you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear·, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the rnernber for Grand Bank . MR.

MATHI EWS: W i l: h y o u r p E! r rn i s s .i. o n , I L~r.i 11 l· (~ 11 thE• han. rni.nistE!r and E'VE~r ·yonE! else in this House and in the gallery that there are l,S34 applications on file today . No. 9 R fl-09

SOME HON. MEMBERS: What! MR. MATTHEWS: Fifteen hundred and thirty-four applications from private sector small business in this Province. MR. RIDEOUT: Too bad thEd r program is not working. MR. MATHIEWS: I guE:'SS my quest:ion, Mr. Speaker, is: What better evaluation of a program do you want when you have over 1500 srncll1 businesses j_n i:hjs Province apply to take advantage of a 50/50 subsidy? MR. SIMr.tts: Would she table her report? Ml~. MATTI-I EWS: I alrecldy asked that and she djd not answer it.

I also want to ask the minister: Will she stand in this House today and conf:-Lrm or dE•ny that the Occupational Integration Program for Women has been cancelled by this governmE·nt, and that what lJ.Je saw in this budget yr:1ster·day was deception becausE! aJ.l that is being funded is a number of carryover projects that were funded last year? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: The program is going to be E!Valuated lAJhen i.t is complel~ed as of SeptE!TnbE!r, 1989.

WE! may go ahead with i·t 'if we find thai: it: rneE:1ts the typE! of criteria. WE! may mod:ify it to make::• it a better L4-10 June 7, 1989 Vol XLI program. We may scrap i l: and put in something that is better. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. MATH·I EWS: Mr. Spt~al<er, there is on1y onE! th:i ng that should be scrapped very quickly in this ProvinCE! and l~l1al~ is thjs administration right hr:H'e. rherE! is no question about that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MATTHEWS: Would the minister stand in her placo and tell this House if pE!OplE! in the Employment. SE!rv:lcE!S Divis :-Lon of her d E• par· t:rne n 1: lJ.Je re given notices this morning - staff reduced from twenty-two to ten; cut in half - of ]ayoffs For thE! las\: of th:is month? liow ironic 'i.s it and how hypocritical th~t people in the Emp1oylnE!nt ~)E:1rvices Division, the branch t.hal.: crE·at:es employment :in l:h:is Province, are being laid off while thjs government c1a:Lifls it~ is r:3o:lng to create jobs? How can you do Lhat-., Mr. Spt~aker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! M Li?

P E B..!5.1B : The hon. the Mjnister of Employment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN: Mr·. SpE!aker, I the gentlE!Irli.Hl' s was it? No. 9 beJ..i.E!VE! foul~th that was question, R ij.l 0

SOME HON. MEMBERS : He was recognized . MS COWAN : He was recognized. I am not aware of whether or not that has taken place. MR. RIDEOUT: Twelve people minister does it! firE!d today and the not even know about MR. TOBIN : Mr. SpE!aker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Burin Placentia. MR. TOBIN: I have a few questions, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Works, Services and fransportation. I just want to put them very bluntly. Has CabinPt. set up a cornrntt.t.E!e to investigate all aspects of the Fogo Island ferry operation, including the Beaumont Hamel, and has an MC been issued to that: effE!Ct? MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation . MR. GILBERT : Mr. Speaker, to my knowJedge, no. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE! mE!JTibE!r for· Burin P1aCE!ntia WE!St. MR. TOBIN : Let me ask the hon. Minister of Works, Transportation, Mr. 1_4-11 June 7. 1.989 gentleman, Services Speaker, l::hE! dl'ld IJJho Vol XU is responsible for transportation and who should know what goes on - hE! is the Minister· respons'.ib1E!

For transportation, and responsible for the MCs that come out of Cabinet as a result of papers that he put into the system - has Cabinet issued instructions to recover and stop any financial commitments rE!latE!d to the second ferry for Bell Island and has there been an MC issued to that effect? MR. SPEAKER: fhe hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportatjon . MR. GILBERT : Mr.

Speaker. over l:he las t two weeks I have had many questions conCE!rning the ferr'i.Qs and l:.he vessels tha ·t. aro going t:o opE•rate between Be11 Island and Portugal Cove, between Fogo and Mainland, and my answer has been consistently that I have asked officials in my department to have a look at ferry operations in Newfoundland, to have a look at the operation of lhe tota] fer1ny SE!rViCE! in Newfound1<7lnd. I 1~1i 11 go back now to 1979 and talk a little about the ferry service and how WE! got. in the po~d tion IJJe ar·e in right now. In 1979, Mr .

Sp e akc~r. the l:hen provincial government si gned a deal w-ith the Feder·al r::~ov~:~rn111enl: to take over the opE!rat. :i.on s of Lh e ferry system in Newfound land. MR. RIDEOUT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A po "i.nt of oJnd('r, i:he hon . the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, anybody who No. 9 it is is o bu i.o us walching to t:hc 1\ IJ. 11

performance of the minister here that he is uelibe r·ately trying to run out the clock on Question Period. The minister is not answering the qu~;:~stion. There was nothing in the question or in the

preamble on 1979. The question had to do with 1989 and Minui:E!S of Council that were issued or not issued by this government. That is what the quesU .on is about, and that is what the minister should be about in his answer. MR. SIMMS: That is right. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Governm~;:~nt HOUSE! Lead~;:~r. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To that poi .nt of order. the rninistE!r was askE!d a question that obviously required some background. SOME HON. MEMBFRS : Oh, oh! MR.

BAKER : The min :is tE! r was obvious 1 y l d y t n g a 1 j t t 1 e b i t of b a c k g r o u n d bE! f o r e he either answered or did not answer that particular question. I uJould also like to point out to the Government House Leader - MR. SIMMS: You ar'E! the Government House LE!cHJE!r. MR. BAKER: that it is customary during Question Period that points of or·der, whE!n thE!Y are raj.sed, are usually held until the end of Question Period. This is a common practicE! in othE!r Houses. so l·:hat poj.nts of ordE!r do not int.erfE·re with the natural process of l.4J2 June 7, 1989 Vol.

XLI questioning during Questjon Period . So I would have expected, Your Honor, that the LE!ader oF the Opposition would haVE! wai t:E!d untj 1 the end of Question Period, pointed out the fact that rninist:E!rs were giving anst.l.IE!rs t.hat wer·e too J.ong, and ask Your Honor to look into the matter. I lAJould have expE!CtE!d that that was what he would have done instead of trying to kill the time of Question Period. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, it has bE!en the custom for the last l.ittl.e wh:ile that lAJE! cer·ta:i .nJy try to keep all points of ordE·r· unt.i.l the end of Question Period? - this is what uJe haUE! donE! in ·the L"'sl: Sessjon - to try as much as possible not to cut .into the Question PE•riod. In any eVE!Ilt, I rule that: it ·is not a point of ordE!r. But I t.vould ask the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to get into his answer quickly, please.

BeforE! thE! minister r·ises :in hi~; place, I do t.l.lant l:o SclY t.ha l: ansWE!rs arE! eVE!ry b:it as :i.Htportant as questions. and I would like l:hE! minister to clue up his answer quickly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hE!ar! MR. GILBERT: Well, Mr. SpE!akr?.r, l:o g.iue the answer to the questjon, I must explain to the member· tAJhat i.s causing thE! financial crisis that we have in t:he FC'r-ry sysl: C!tn Ln Newfoundland right now. To do that I haue to go back to the point, whE!rl, once upon d t:i.me :i.n Newfoundland, the intraprovincial ferr·y SE!I"ViCE! was oper'ated by t:hu fro!Ck!ral govE·r·nrnent.

HouJeiJC'r. I:: he No. 9 R412

previous administration took over admjnistration of the intraprovincial ferry system in 1979; hence total responsibility for the operation of the intraprovincial ferry system is now the responsibility of the Government of Newfoundland, and hence the taxpayers of Newfoundland. To answer the member's question, the provision for · a Slo!COnd f.:!rTy for Bell Island is sU .ll in consideration . Whether it is a nE!W one or one presently in operation in some other plaCE! on the Island is still a possibility. I do not yet have the information from my officials, but there is no doubt about it, Mr.

Speaker, as I told the member last Monday and this Monday, it . is still under consideration and there will be a second ferry for Bell Island when we make a d,;:~cision on it sornet:ime in \:he future. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: Mr. SpE!aker. MR . SPEAKER: fhe hon. the TnE!tnbE!r for Bur·in PlaCE!ntia WE!St. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary . My 1 inE! of qut~s tiontng to the minister has been deaJ.ing with an MC and that has nothing l:o do lAri th thE! intrapr·ov:LnciaJ. fE!rTy SE!rvice, but it has a lot to do, Mr.

Speaker, wjth the credibility of \:he Minister of Transportation . 1hat is what lAJE' are deaJ.tng wj.t.h hE!re. Mr. ~3peaker, in :light of LJJha t he Lll-13 June 7, 1989 VoJ XLI just said and has said befo1nc and I haVE! askE:!d him about: llAJO questions, have alrE!ady put thc:!m -t o h j_ rn - I lAJ:i l 1 g o s o fa r· a s t o ask thE! rnin-.istE!r are i:ht'Y included on thE! sarne MC? On Monday past, rco!gard:Lng this, I asked the m:in:ister whether or no\: an MC existed dealing with the ferr·y serv:ices and cancE!llat.ion oF thE! second ferr·y for Be]J.

Island, and the rnirrisb?.r Sdi.d, "The iH1SlAJer to the hon. ITIE!rnber :Ls no", that no MC E!Xis \:.ed. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am going to give a final opportunity to the han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportat ion to come clean with this House of AssE!rnbly. I hopE! the hon. minister real-.:l.zes lAJhat happ,:=!ns iF he is not truthfuJ. Lv~i t.h thj s House. Does an MC E!X ~i.st, Mr .

SpeakE•r, with :i.tE!ITJS on it dealing with the approval for the first ferr·y ·for Bell IsJ.and, Uw cancellation of the second ferry for Bell ls]and to recover the funding, and with setting up a committee to opE!ratE! the. Fogo Island ferry service? Will the ministE!r come c}E!an and bE! honE!St l.t.Jith this House? Mr . ~3pE!aker, I hope he realizes what he is putting on the line here. Does an MC exist, Mr' . Speaker' , canceJJ:in~1 t.he second ferry for Bell Island? MR. WARREN: Yes or no. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ~3PEAKER: ·:rliellGn.- ····--t.he Min~i stE!r ' of Wot"ks, Services and Transportation.

MR. GILBEIH : Thank you, Mr. SpE!ak er. I bE!E!n honest wit:h l:hi s Hou se. No. 9 hav e For R '11 3

the hon. member's infor·rnation, as I understand it, Minutes of Cabinet are sort of confidential docurnE!nts unU .l such timE! as they are made public. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burin Placentia West. Ml~. TOBIN: Mr. SpE!aker·, this has nothing to do tAiith a discussion in Cabinet.

Thts has to do wH.:h a Minute of Council that outLines the policies of this government to deal with the people of this governmE!nt, and every rnjnist.E!r who sits around that Cabinet table, including tht~ Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, has a responsibility to be honest with the people of this Province and this House. Now, Mr. Speaker, laying it on the table, is there an MC existing cancelling the ferry services, that he has already denied in this House, and we wjll deal with it.. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, no. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

If t:he hon. member u..lill allow rne, before getting on to the next point of business or recognizing the Opposition House Leader, on behalf of han. members I would like to welcome to the House of 1_11 .14 June 7, 1989 Vol XLI Assembly 47 Gr·ade U studt:!nt:.s From the W. E. Cormack School of StE.~phr:1nviile, accornpani'''!d by tht:!:ir teachE!r' and chaperonE!S in l:hE:! persons of Mr. Angus ShE!ppar·d, Selma Stiles, Eileen Gale, Betty Vokey, Jeff Cook, Ruby Bentley, Carol Shave, Norma Chapman, Stephen Penney and Wanda Da1ey. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition liOUSE! Leader.

MR. SIMMS : Mr. SpE!akt::~r, on a point of OJ"dE!r. Just to cJ.arify a mattE!r noJAI l:hat. was r·aised during QUE!stion Pt::~rtod so that we all know what. the rules of the garne are. rhe Covt:.~rnrnont House Leader indicated, in I do not knolAI tJJhat kind of fashion I wouJd describE! it -- jt tJJas rathE'r surprising to hE!i:H ' .it come f1' ··om the Government House Leader.

He talked about thE! practicr:!S and tradiU.ons of t.h:is L.eg:tslatur·e and Oral Question PE!Y'.i.od, and he tr··.i.E'd to make the point that it is normal practice in Question Period not to lj stE!n to points of order but to rather haVE! l:hE!rn raisr;!d al: the end of Question Period. Now, r-'lr . Speaker, I haVE' been in this House ten year's, and 1 can bet thE! hon. member that. I can show him more precedents set by members on the oppos:'i.tE! s:ide, set by the members over on t.hat s:idE!, whE~rE! points of order IJJ!i.~rE• raised on numerous occasions during Question Period. It is not out of practice.

It is not necessarjly a fact that points of orc..lE!r should be raisE!d at thE' end o·F Questi .on PE!riod. That is not nt.HE!Ssar· .i1y a fc!Ct.. Th(;~rr:' are thousands of precedent. Beauchesne says :in the 5th Edition at least, says, 11 A No. 9 R4.l4

point of ordE!r raj sed in the Quest.ton Period ought to be taken up after Questton Period unless the Speaker cons'.'iders it to be serious or an extremE:1ly grave matter. 11 rhai: is what the word'.ing says. So, if you look at the precedents of our House, it is clear that points of order have been raised, Mr. Speaker, during Question Period and have been dealt with by the Speaker during Question Period, and the precedent s and practices and traditions of our House supercedE! Beauchesne, as the Government HousE: ~ Leader should know . If he wants me to gcd: all kinds of prE!Cedents I wi1l, but.

I think it is important, Mr. SpE!aker, for us to clarify this matter now. I raised it after Question Period. It is important that we clarify the matter so everybody knows what the rules of the game are. Either points of order can be raised during Question Period or they cannot. That is the important question to be addressed. The reason I raise it now Your Honour is that you might LAJish to save it for SpE!c'lker' s cornE!r, or tJJhatever, I do not know. But I think it is an important rnal:ter which you might wish to give some serious consideration to. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . thE! GovernmE!nt House Lead:::!r. MR.

BAKER : To that point of order. It is obviously not a point of order, Mr. SpeakN'. but simply to cJ.arify a matter. I do not know why the Opposibon HousE! Leader is getting so upSE!t about th ·is. The fac l: of the matt .er' is, I bE!}ieve IAJhat he S<~i.d, I undE!rstand what hE! said, and I agrE!e with IJJhat hE• said. I agree t:hal: in t:his House in !:he past there have been too many I _1.1. 1 S June 7, 1989 Vol XU points of order during Question Period, far too many. I agree with that, Mr. Speaker.

One of the problems is that in order to haVE! a functioning QuE•stion Period we should have followed thE• rules outJ.inE!d by Your Honour and haiJE! short questions, questions of immediate importance, questions designed to 'illic :it ·.information, and from the Ministers the answers should simply be answers to the quesU .ons. I understand a11 that. I also undE!rstand that during the past number of years the decor-um in the Hou se has soll!E!times. perhaps, not bE!en what :it shouJ.d haVE! bc~en, and part of the reason for this was because of the kinds of things that happE!ned during Question Period.

I wouJ.d agree with the Opposition House Leader that Beauchesne indicates that unless it is of pressing importance that it should bE! le·Ft over until the end of Question PE!r'iod. ThE! House of Cornmons in Ottawa, the procedure there the ru1ings have been made and actually ver·y rarely do you E!tH•r see a point of order ra ised during QUE!St'ion PE!riod in Ol:.tau.Ja i'lnd this contributes to a more ciuil iz ed exchange. So in surnrncn·y, i\~r. SpE!aker, I totalJ.y agrE!e tAd. th what the Opposition House LE!acler sa.l d.

I simply wanted to point out :i.n my response to the leader of the Opposition when he rose on this point of or·der that l:he gitJE! and take during Question Period is contro]lr!.d by Your' Honour· and at sorne point Your Honour' if he recognizes the qUE!st :ions too long wi11 bring the member to order, Your Honour· .if you n'•cogn "i. zc~ Lhe answer as being too J.ong wil l br·ing thE! JriE'lrlbel~ to orcJel~, and if the members opposite have a problem with that or if rnembrH'S on this s:i.de have a prob1em tJJ~i.t .h ~i.t then after Question Pertod you raj se thE~ po ::i nt of or 'ciE:•i" . I tAms No. 9 1\415

simply pointing out that the point of order was perhaps better raised at a different point and Your Honour was in control of the House. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of orde!r. First of all I would advise hon. members that I will take it under advisemE!I1t. But just as a matter of dealing with it now, to be sure that I make clear to all hon. members the procedure in the House, quite obviously the Opposition House LeadE!r was right when he mentioned that it has been the precedent of this House to rise on points of order in Question Period. That is absolutely correct.

Secondly, the Government House Leader, by the same tokt~n, alludE!S to some expression, somewhere along the linE!, that thE!re is sofTIE! propens ·ity, some fer:'!ling that we should not rise on points of order dur·ing Question Period. The Chair is not certain of whE:'ther or not that was something practiced by the party of which he was a

part last year, or whether indeed it did happen in the House . I do know that it: is a matter of t.uhat the House itseJ.f wants: whE!ther the House wants to have a rough and tumblE! QuesU on Period, in which we rise on points of Ol''der all of the timE! and in which very little work gets done, or tAJhed ·:her indeE!d l.IJe tAJant to have a Question Period that is characterized by prE!Cision, crispness, and good, quick intelligent debate. But I think, in havj .ng sa:id aJ.] of that., l:hat both han. members wr::1re to a degrE!e COinrE!Ct.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees l..ll-16 June 7, 1989 Vol XLI DR. KITCHEN : Mr. SpE!akE!r. MR. SPEAKER: ·The hon·~ .. -the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, as required by SecU.on ( 14 ·) of the Liquor Control Act, 19'73, I formally prE!SE!nt: to the House the annual report of lhe Newfoundland Liquor Licensing Boar·d for the year E!ndE!d 31, Mar·ch 1988. As you t.~-rill see, Mr. SpE!akE•r, thE:~ Board has had anot:her very demanding year and the licences issued continue to increaSE!.

As all hon. rnolllbE!Ins know, the J.:i. c enc E!S iss lH!d by the Board arc~ very imporh<tnt .in enabling thE:1se srnal1 businE!SSE !S and businessmen and woJOE!n to ear·n a J.iuing and generate empJ.oyment in the retail sector. MS COWAN : Mr . SpeakE!r. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of EmpJ.oyment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am tabling today, as the Legislative Report Minister of Labour to the Assembly 1988. Program and Review. rninist:E!r, of the House of Planrdng Orders of the Day Private Member•s Day MR .

SPEAKER: Tt bcdng Pr·ivate M•=:!rnber • s Day, I call on thE! rnernber for Car·bonear' to introduce his tnot .ion. No. 9 R4-l6

The han. the member for Carbonear. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. REID : If you would permit me, Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few comments leading up to my presentation. I arn sort of, as some of my han. colleagues have noticed across the way in the past little while, or the last hour or so, disappointed with somE! of the commE!nts that have been corning across at some of the questions thai: were put at our minister. OnE! in particular, thE! fun--making word used by some of the hon. members when the han. the Minister of Finance r'OSE! to his fE!et, and some of the members called out 'chtld abuse' .

Now, Mr. Speah1r, I, personally, do not appreciate that parttcular type of comment in this han. House because of the seriousness nature of the problr,~m that is going on in this Province at the present time. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that my resolution is takE!n a ljttle bit more seriously, and hopefully before I am finishE!d today we can get some consensus of opinion between both parties in the House. I hope the han . the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hearn) and I can co1nE! to some agr·eement on passing a rE!Solution that will, maybe, combine both his resolution and mine. Mr .

Speaker, I wouJ.d likE :~ to takE! the resolut·:i.on as such, r·un down through it as quickly as I can, and rnake some gC:Hl<.~r ·al corniTIE!I'lts on the resoJ.ution . As WE! al1 knolAJ, the han. thE! PrE!IOiE!r for thE! past couple of WE! e k S or so has been making SOlliE! gorlE!ral comments to the prE!SS on L4·17 JunE! 7, 1989 Vol X l.I behalf of Newfoundland !:he and Government Labrador of in r·elai:ionship to our "input and pressure that the Government of Newfoundland, and all of Newfoundland can put upon thE!

EEC to try and encourage l:hE!ITI t:o come to some reasonable agreement on the question of overfishing on the Grand Banks. If I am allowed, Mr . Speaker, I would just like to read a quote from the hon. PrE!mier, who is not in the House today but ofF doing, I guess, governmental busines s. He was quoted just recently as saying that "When the Pr:i.rne Minister says that this is a matter of priority for Canada, and when l:hE! Pr·irnE! M:in.istc;,~r speaks l:o it in international c:i.r·cJ.es, thE!n we will get a good response." Mr.

SpeakE!r, as far as this government is concerned, thE! who J.e of the caucus of this party agrees that in o~der for us to secure proper negotiations frorn countries like Spain and PortugaJ. and a number of othr:!rs we haVE! l:o cotrtE' up with some r~~asonab1e, J.og:i.ca1 t.oJay to approach those p(~oplE• and impress upon thE!Trl that what thE !Y are doing off the Coa st of NE!WfoundJ.and and Labrador is detrimental to t:hern as well as t:o ourselves . Sorne r·ecent E!VE'nts, Mr.

SpE!aker·, have shot.>Jn some encourag<~ment a 1 on g this J.:i. n E' , I guess , w:i. t. h the Pr·lme Minister· meE!ting ju st recently with the Prime Minist er of Spain and also Mr. Ct ~osbi.E! has met with a number of EEC people to discuss the question. I am pleased, and I think on behalf of this House I can honestly say that at J.east that is cl stE!P ' towards the r·ight direction. I will say, Mr. ~>peaker, that WE! do not J.ook upon the super-committee of the No. 9 r~4·17

fE!deral Cab-.inE!t as being of much consequence. We are hoping, of course. and praying that they wi.ll do something to hE!lp us down here in Newfoundland. but we are skeptical. There have been too many committees of federal Cabinet Ministers put together to look into questions in Atlantic Canada over the last number of years that have resolved very little. Mr. Speaker, it is my personal belief that Newfoundland and the Newfoundland fishery does not hold a high enough priority with the federal Government of Canada.

We only have one spokesperson in the Cabinet, who does not represent fisheries as such but another department, I am led to b~1lieve! by people who have worked in the federal civil serviCE! and some who have been close to the past Ministers of Fisheries in Ottawa that when at the Cabinet table the question of fisheries arises all you hear i.s, 1 It -.is unimportant 1 • That sort. of reply and answer j_s basically my perception of how the Government of Canada looks upon the fishing industry on the East Coast.

I was earlier on in our new term, I guess it was latE! in April or early in May. surprised to hear' that the han. LE!ader of the Opposition was off to Ottawa to speak to, I guess, the Prime Minister and whoever else he could possibly speak to. I noticed that for a couple of days the han. leader got a fa:i.r amount of press coverage. In fact I think on one particular day The Evening Telegram published the fact that he was going on the front page and said a few things about what he was going to do while he was there. I have been looking ever Mr. Speaker - I am ser'ious since, about.

Ll\.18 June 7. 1.989 Vol XLI this ·- to hE!ar his repor·t, to see some results of the meeting that he had with the Prime Minister and what exactly the Prime Minister or any member of the federal Cabin E!t has done as a direct result of the han. rnernbE!r' 1 S visit. I have yet to see anything.

I will say that I have been looking at The Evening Telegram for some timE! i:o carne up with answers and I am sure that maybe someone in that well-known Newfoundland paper may go back and ask the han. member what exactJ.y he was do:i ng in Ottawa and what success he had, because I would like to know, if I did I might be be able to speak to this question a little easier. T h E! h-o n . P r E! m i E:1 r c a LJ e d :L t cl grandstanding trip to Ottawa, whj ch. by thE! way, thE! pE!ople of the Province have not had a report on YE!t. I am assuming, Mr.

Speaker - I do not know, I am probably a little naive here that the people of Newfoundland paid for thE! trip. If we paid for· the trip, t.hen I think we dE!SE!r'VE! to get. sornE! results or sornE•thing back in return. That brings mE! back, of course, to a trip that to.Jas taken some t.iJnE! ago to Europe by an hon. ex -lllE!ITlbE!r of the House, t.hat E!I'Hh!d up costing him SOITIE!th:i.ng J.i .b:! $600 For· a br·eakfas t for him and his wifE!, which was nevE:~In exp1a:im•d t:o the House, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister, as IAJE<l1 as Uw h on . f E! de r a 1 rn enn be r for St. .

John 1 s West, has been talking of late about a compE!nsation packagE! . And this party has comJnendE!d them on that, I suppoSE!, bE!Cause to a certain extent we cannot close our doo1ns beforE! knolAJ exact] y JAJhat :.is corning through. The compensation packagE!, Mr '. No . 9 Rl\.l8

Speaker, we hope is not one of job developtnE!nt. I arn afraid that the Federal Government of Canada wi11 compensate the fishermen and \:he fish plant workers who will suffer in \:he nE!Xt little while becdUSE! of the reduced quotas, will probably be given a compensation package that will basically be the same as what they have been getting for thE! past twenty years or so, I guess, f1nom the federal government, a compensation packagE! \:hat will probably involve job development grants or make--work jobs, or \:he LIP progr·am, or something simiJ.ar to that that IJJe had years ago. I for one, Mr.

Speaker, and I am certainly not speaking on behalf of this entire caucus, arn sick ~~nd tired of hearing and seo:Lng monE!Y being wasted in this Province, in my district and all over Newfoundland on schemes that creatE! no initiative, that pr·ovidE• littlE! if anything to the per·son who works on the projects other than to provide them with ten weeks of unemployment insurance stamps. I am sure, Mr. Speakc:!r, that the fishermen and the fish plant workE:~rs of this Province do not want that, or that type of program.

Jus\: this past WBE!kE!nd I had l:he opportunity to sit for sorne timr:~ with a young trawler captain, a young chap who comes frorn the District of Trinity Soul:h. I sat and I listened to him and 1 had some quc::~stions. He had heard that I had ra:i.sed thE! question of overfishing in the House, and : .. 1as keen to discuss the problems of overfishing with me . Mr.

Speaker, "in get up and make gUG!SS for· any cornrnE·nts on a order for me to co1mnen ts, and I rne1nber· to rnakr::! subject. in the L/.1.19 June '7, '1.989 Vol XLI House, it is important that people know what thE!Y arE! talking about, SO in thE! last tiAIO or thrE!l;! lAIE!E!kS I have doing some investigation into the question of overfishing. Mr. Speaker, I am not questioning the scientific reports, I arn not questioning the Harr·is Report, I arn really not questioning anybody.

I have prob] E:'ITIS with some of the statistics that have been provided by Federal FishE!r:i.E!S as lAiell as sornE! of l:he statistics that are being provided to us by Provincial Fisheries. 0 n one hand , M r . S p 10:1 a k 1?. r , l: h e scientists will say that we are overfishing certain areas of the NoSE! and Ta:i.l of the Gr·and Banks, that is certain zones. Trawler captains who fish these area ~;. Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker, are just as concerned about what happens out there as we politicians are, and I guess maybe eVE!n molnE!SO thC"J.n so1ne oF us poJ iticians. They do not say that sort of thing.

They agree that in certain areas on thE! Gr·and Banks off the coast of Newfoundland that the fjsh supply is lesser now than i t was t E! n y E! a r s ago , b u t tl-w y cannot agree in certain instances, in certain zones, in CE!r-l: .ain places, to the fact that federaJ scientists have said that just about every area off the coast of Newfoundland, on thE• Banks, in all zones the fishing stock is decreasing . This young chap, Mr ·.

Speaker, t.oJ.d me that thi s year·, in particular, he has se~:;!n rnore cod in cer·tain ar·eas thC"J.n he'! ha s sE•E!n "in the las\: six yE!ars he has bE!en fishing on the Crand Banks . It makc~s rne wonder, Mr. Speak(•r, if there is not something wrong with our scientific data, scientific analysis, or lAihatever. I often have said, Mr. Speaker, before I got eJected to the House, No. 9 R 4-19

that maybe government scientists, the burE!aucrats and pE!Ople relatE!d to the fishing industry, I guE:1SS, should maybe pay more attent'ion to what the fishermE!n themseJ.ves arE! say'ing and not necessar·t1y to those people who profess to be exper·ts on given subjects. I t.E!nd to agree, Mr.

Speaker, bE!CaUSE! if we, as members of the House of Assembly, or, I guess, as Newfoundlandt~rs want to know what is going on in a certain arE!a of the Provtnce, the best place to go is down ther·e to the grass roots where we can talk to people who understand and know, who have bE!en in the industry for years and gE:1nerations. Maybe we arE! not doing enough of that, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder sotnE!tirnes if we do not, in our posj tions of -· I do not know what lJJord to put on .i.t, I would be afraid to u s e it be c au s e maybe the Opposil::ion would USE! it against me -but maybe in our positions we sometimes thtnk ourSE!lves to be experts in E!Very fi1':!ld and basically to be rnastE!rS in none.

I think that both this government and the Opposition, this government in particular, should pay at t<~ n Uon to lAJha t the local fishermen are saying, the local trawler worker or dragger captain, ask those people what they think of what is going on out there, because thE!Y have a story to tell d.nd sometimes rnayb~~ a different story than what we arE! hearing from the professionals. Carbonear district is not necessarily relying upon the f-.ishery to survive. But, Mr. SpE!aker, if you go to Carbo near on any g'iVE!n day during thE!

Surnrner, and go into either one of the malls UlE!re, and thE!re are not too many, you can see a diffE•renCE! in l:hE~ nurnbE!r of p1:!ople shopping, you can see a difference in the number 1./1.20 June '7, 1989 Vol XLI of peopJ.e who ar't::' us~i ng thE! banking services or the post office, and I guess Uds is truE~ of every district. And you wonder what is the difference in today and yesterday, and people lJ..r.i.11 say to you, 'The fish plant is not operating today and that is why thE~re arE! not so many pE:1ople moving around the comrnuni t.y. ' The fishery, Mr.

Speaker, I do not have to tell any member of this House, I arn SUl"e, ·is probably l:ht:! backbone of Uds Province, and unless we take the backbone of this Province seriously then we are going to bE~ in trouble. WE! are not going to have the opportunity 'in years down the road to get up and criticize a budget stat:E!rnent because HlE!I~e is not going to be a budget statement. Th:is Province is in a situation right nouJ where lJ.Je haVC::1 to, under every circumstance, try to rna~i ntain what WE! haVE!, and one of the most important th:in(:3s \:hat lJJe have in this Pr·ovince is t.he fishery. My resolut-ion, Mr.

Speaker, basically caJls upon the Prime Minister of Canada himself. We can appr'E:1ciatE! that Mr.

Crosbie :is trying his bE!St, Mr. 5iddon .is trying his best., and al1 hE• othr:~I"S that are on t.hat Comm-.i.l:tt:!e, but WE! feeJ. strongly that both parties of this House should togt:!Uwr· <::JO to Ot.t.awa, or send to Ottawa, our request that the Prime Minister take the injtiative at thJs particular timE! l:o l'l~C!ad up l:hi:'tt Committee himself to lobby wjth the necessary leaders of countr· .. i.c:!S around t. his lJJO r J. d that: a r u us :i. n g our fish stocks on the Ci"dnd Banks, and it :.i.s onJ.y thl"ough the Pr-.ime Min-.i.ster and the pressure that he can put on other countr·iE!S, othE!r' PresidE!nts dl'ld Prime Ministers of various No. 9 FUl-?.0

countries, that we can, S:ir, get some sort of an agrE!I::Hnent bt::!t.ween Canada and thE! EEC, or other countries that are overfishing. Mr. Speaker, to clue up, I believe that the hon. member for St. Mary•s - The Capes (Mr. Hearn) feels exactly the same as I do about this.

I t.ui11 be honest and say that when he made his presentation last week in this House, when he moved his motion, {:hat I ag1need, not in total lAr.ith his motion, and I do not imagine that he t.u:i11 agree in total tAJ:i.th mine, but I hope that both the Opposi t:i.on and the governmE!nt side of this House will agree with this motion and if we can agree with this I I am sure the Priml':~ Minister of Canada will take it a lot more seriously than if just the governrnE!nt s:ide of the House tAJas presenting the motion. I thank you for the opportunity again, Mr.

Speaker, and I hope that this House will respond favorably to my motion. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the ITIE!rnbE!r for St. Mary • s -The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, let rnE• say that it is delight to stand to support the mot:lon as put forward by the member for Carbonear. We support the motion thoroughly, cornpletE!J.y, without reservation, without amendment. I say to the hon. member that he also, as did many rnore over there, undoubtedly suppor·l:c:!d thl':1 one \:hat t.ue put L4-2l. June 7, ]989 UoJ.

XLI forth last week, except the Prenr.iE!r, who want"!d l:o control everything himself, as he always do E• s , and was not sat is f i E! d to have an all-Party committee of the House to deal with such an important issue as the fishery, and the cutback in quotas in the fishery, and the effect it will have on Newfoundland, and conseqUE!ntly the rE!SoJ.ution was not passed as we submitted it. I do not blarnE! the hon. gE!ntlernen for that, \:hey w-.111 gE!t used 1:o that, and the time wiJ] colliE!, perhaps, whE!n they t.u'.i.ll s1:.and on their own feet and not have to wor-r-y about lAJhat l:he leadE!r a1ways says.

We wiJ.J. support his motion complE!tely, without, as I say, amE!ndments, because W(;' agi"E!e with what the words of the rc::•solut.i.on say. WE! haVE! had a d-:i.scussion on overfishing on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks. One thing I pointed out last week as I presented our motion, which encompassed several ol:hE!r probl r-.!lns related to the fishery and the presr;~nt crisis that LiJE! faCE! notAJ, is that it cannot be blaniE!d thoroughly on overfishing .

Even though the raping of the stocks on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks certainly is a major fac tor and a major contributor to the decline in cod stocks, but that it. cannot be blamed for the cornple l:e collapse of the fishery in the Province of Newfoundland. We have to look at, as we mentionE!d last lAIOek, t:he seal herds. We have to look at rnis1nanagement ovc~r l:hE! .YE!drs. LooJE! have t.o J.ook at t.hE! methods of fishing tAle haVE! USE!d. lrJe have to look at. l:he by- ·-catches that have bE!en caught and discar·ded, caught <:'lnd unreported, and we can go on and on.

T~H'!r'E! a1ne seVE!r·al factors No. 9 Rt\ .2 1

involved st.ocks. ".in Maybe the:! decline because of of the present crisis an awareness has been created, certainly here in Canada, but that may not hac;r;:~ any great affE!Ct unless we can sprE!ad that awareness around the world. Now, when the Harris Report was presented the federal government set up a special Cabinet committee immediately to de~al with it, one made up of some extremely high--profiJ.E::d rnin:istE!rs, pE!rhaps the highest-profile Cabinet commttteE! eVE!r set up by thE! fed(~ral gov(~rnment.

Hou.JE!VE•r', whr;::n thE!Y went to EuropE! last week thE! first indications were that they were received very favorably by the EEC ·authorities and that they WE!re considering looking seriously at the overfishing on the Nose and Tail of Grand Banks. However, today1s reports, if they are factual, say that even though, thE! Spanish authori t:ie s appreciate what is· happening and have a concc:.~rn for overfishing, yet they fail to adhere to the suggested quotas that they have been given. So "it is great to bE! sympathE!tic to our cauSE!, but if thE!

EEC countriE!S and the other countr·ies which fish the Nose and TaiJ. and within our two hundred mile limit, do not adhere strictly to the quotas set out by our managem<-?.nt people then we are in for hard times down the road, because we ourselves cannot control the stocks and buoild up of the stocks if we have othE!rS who cont:i nue t.o overfi.sh. Unless IAJe do, pE!rhaps, what the words of the present resolu·t.ion suggest:s, and t..ue C:!XE•rt control or try to exert control or at least press for control over the Nose and the TaiJ. of the Grand Banks. and we I::JE! t the Pr·:irne Minister involved.

Now to some degree he has been involved, he L422 Jum: 7, J989 Vol X L.l has made some contacts and has raised the issUE!.

But unless thE! federal government takes ini tiaU.ve to addrE!SS not. on] y what is within thE!ir own conl:rol, and practically everything as it relates to the fishery is in their control, and after looking at yester·day1s budget I arn not sure whE!th~<:H' that is a bad :i.dea -··· last YE!ar t..ue said we wanb:!d more say 'in what was happening; today I arn not. sure whether or not we should have more say with the little attention that is paid to the fishery in yester·day 1 s budgE!t as PI''E•sentE!d :i.n the House, but I u.Jill get l:o that in a minutes --but if government has the intestinal fortitude to mel k e the decision o v E! r t. hE! iH' (''as that they control right now and press for further controls over thE! areas whtch they do not, and they do have a J.ot of levers they gtve you all kinds of excuses of why they are not using them, but l:hey rnust -becauSE! othc:!rtAiise we NewfoundJ.anders ar'E! pay:i.ng and will continUE! to pay thE! priCE!

For their mismanagement over the years. So consequently we certainly support the RESOLVE~) in !:he resolution !:hat .is on l::hE! Order· PapE!r. ThE! Member for· Car·bonea r· whE!n presenting his resolution rnE•ntionE!d the trip that the Leader· of U1(~ Opposil:i.on made to Ol'ti'.ltAJa shortly after the special comrnil:.tee lAJas set up, and hE! did that basically out of Frustr·at:i.on, frustration with the fact that the provincial government sat tl·wrE! and did not move on this important issue.

It said one of those days so rne of l: hosE! rne mi::11::!Jn s tAd. 1.1 co me dou,m and lAIE' w:ill talk to them, and that is the attitude that the Prem:iE!Y' of t:h:i.s Prov:.i.ncE• has, 1 Everyone must colfiE! t:o rne•. 1 And he is going to Find out :in deaJ.:i.ng in international circles -the No. 9 f~4 2 2

mE!Inber· used the word 'circus', and perhaps 'circus' is more applicable th<.~n cir·cles - that E!Veryone is not going to come to the King of Newfoundland. He must sometimes go to the mountain. AN HON. MEMBER: He is gone today . MR. HEARN: He is gone today. to MontebE!llo. Yes, he is gone But it is a long time after the committeE! was set up, when 1.ue could have had some input at the start. One of the biggest criticisms we have had over the years is that federal authorities make decois:·Lons and we had no input. And after they made the decisoion we then start reacting. MR. DECKER: You fellows (inaudible). MR.

HEARN: It is not har·d to know that he is gone to Montebello, becausE! if he WE!re hCH'e the me:Hnber For th~?. Strait (Mr. Decker) would bE! sit :ting \:here piously ulith his hands joined, nodding in his direction and not saying a word. But I respect the hon. member's right to intE!rject because, being a very vocifer·ous person, it must be very, very hard on him to si 1: there day after day, especially tJJhen his area, St.

Anthony and all the Northern Peninsula. is so affect.E!d by the prE!Sent crisis in the fishery, he j,s not abJ.e to rE!ally gE!t up and say and do tJJhat he wa n t s to s a y a n d d o abo u t it , but anyway. If we are going to have any affect on the decision madE! by thE! federal government, then we must have input and we must have it early. And that is tJJhy, when the L.4 .23 June 7, 1989 VoJ.

XLI committE!E! was struck, :i.mmediate1y the leader of our party, at his own expense, tJJas tp Ottawa. rhe government and the people of Newfoundland do not pay for the transportation of Opposition mernbE!rS, as some of you OVE!r thE!re know, and some of you will know four YE!ars down the road. He WE!n\: up at his own expense to meet with the Cab:inet cornmit:tE!e, to str'E!SS to them the ecornomjc E!ffE!Ct, the social effect that this overfishing is having on the Province of Newfoundland. MR. EFFORD : SurE!, hE! was thE! Mird ster of Fisheries. MR. HEARN: ExactJ.y. The Minister of So cial Services (Mr.

Efford) ulill be a very busy man in this Province over the next few years after yesterday's budget . He knows something about the fishery, and he knows that the J.eader was a Minister of Fisheries, a person who knows more about the fishery in the Province than the coJ.lective wits of all the gentlemen opposite and lady oppositE!, who probably knows rnor ·e than any of them. But that is why he WE:'nt up, so that he couJ d give sorne firsthand :inforrnal:.ion, SOIIlE! soLid suggE•st:i.ons based upon fact: and exper:iE!nce, l:o the Cab:Lno t.

Corrmli tlE!E! so that in rna king the:ir­ plans ·- not in mak.ing l:heir fl nal decisions or in ·Lh~dr reactj on to thern -- we, as a Province, should have some input, becausE· tho p 1~ e s E! n t g o v e r n rn E! n t s a .i d , ' ~-J E! cH' e not intE•rested .' OnE! of Lhose days thE!Y tAr.ill comE! down l:.o tJs and thE:'n we tJJjlJ makE! a fN .. J suggc~s tions. Anyway, Mr. Spt:!dker, that is why the leader went to Ottawa and he went at his own E!XpE!nSE!. No. 9 R'l 23

One of the 'WHEREASES' in this resolution worries mE!. It is the i:hird one and it says, "WHEREAS the fishing industry is facing considerable uncertainty as a result of major quota re!ductions. 11 True! However, taken out of context, the first part, 11 WHEI~EAS the fishing industry is facing considerable uncertainty, 11 thE!r·e is more than the fishing industry facing considerable uncertainty in \:he Province: Rural Newfoundland in total is facing considerable uncertainty.

I mentioned earl ier the entire lack of recognition of the fishing industry, the main industry in the Province, the life!blood of rural Newfoundland, and a fair amount of blood from it flows into urban Newfoundland to keep it alive . There is one meager mention, and what is it? Another study. An evaluation initatiue of the Fisheries Response Program, $500,000. That is the only highlight in their Budget highlights about the fishery. Yet we can have numerous Highlights about incidentals. One highlight about the fishery, a study. Some highlight! There is absolutely no attention paid to the fishery.

The answer, of course, is we have no control over thE! fishe!ry. The fishE!Iny is contr·olled by thr:1 fedaral government. The fishery off our shor~1 is controlled by the fE!deral goVE!rnrne!nt, our J.iCE!nsing pc1licies, our· quotas and what have:' you, but on land WE! haVE! a tremendous amount of control. in the licensing of our plants, in our i nfras tru c ture, our s l iptJJay s. our marine cente!rs, our fish plants, many of which we own as a Province. yet uet"Y J.ittlE! atb:•nU.on is paid to the fishE!ry. Yet many jobs can be created. L/1.24 June 7, 1989 Vol XLI Where is Mr. House now?

He s u g g e s t. e d a f EHAJ t h i n g s 1 i k E! t h a t in his Royal Commission Report and he suggested many of ti'!E'm because he sat around and talkE!d tAd.l:h some of us who know something about rural Newfoundland. Many jobs can be ere a i:ed in thE~ fishery in many of our communi t.il':~s. and all you have to do is look at thE! record of what. has been done over the last few years. I can give you many examples ver·y close to home t;.Jhere hundrE!dS of jobs 1.\Jer'E! creat.Pd, where the federal government said, 'Too many plants.

Too much freezing pot.ent.ie1.l, ' but whe1nE! 1.1.1E!, as a gouE•rnrnent, when tJJe wer·e in power had faith in rural Newfoundland and tfied to build it up instoad of te!aring it down and put some attention and some money into the fishery, but that has been reversed with yesterday's budget. It is not only \:hE! 1ack oF atlE!nt.ion to thE! fishery t.hat·. IAIE! should be concer'nE•d IAlil:h :in l"und Newfoundland. Many of the members over there representing rural Newfoundland should be concerned also. What about the Pr·emiE:~r's own quote, 'Too many fishermen chasing too few fish'?

E1Jen your friend at the L:lbE!ral Telegr·am had an editorial that tore into it, that said he was wrong, that he should try to build up and croatc~ jobs in the f:ishery, the potent:i .aJ .is there, not tell fishermen to burn their boats and go away, which is what he said right in this HouSE!. Take out Hansard and you can see the quote for yourselves. The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs (Mr. Gullage), following along on his master's suggestions, talks about No. 9 R424 -

consolidation. It is great to consoJ.idate and centralize, but if we are going to forget . the small rural areas that cannot benefit From centralization and co-operation and co-ordination, then we are singing a different tune. We have seen the rural development movement in this Province completely and utterly ignored by the pr'E!Sto:~Pt governmE!nt, not only in the sense of rural development where we think of associations dealing 1.uith certain projE!ct.s, and many of thE:~m are directly invol1;ed in the fishery.

Many of t.hE:~m are into aquaculture projE!cts where there are all kinds of possibilities for Newfoundland in the future. Many of them are encouraging industry built around the fishery in thEd. r areas. Many of thE!In have used projects to repair their Fishing facilities, to encourage operators to carnE! in and create jobs. They have basically been told, 'Well, too bad! We cannot gE!t an agrE:~emE!nt. ' We not only could have, we had one. We had an agr·eement with the federal government and you could not follow up on it, and have not been trying very har·d, Ed. t.her.

What are you going to do, let l:he Rural Development Associations die in the Province? If you do, it is gojng to have a drastic affect on job creation in rural NE!Wfoundland. It. :is amazing that. we can look at the lack of attention to the fishery, the lack of conCE!rn for rur·al dE!Velopment, the closc,~doiAm of our small rural hospitals, and hE!ar talk aboul: centralization. Move out of the small arE:!aS, mo1;e to the l<:H'ge centres if you want to get. attention from this government, centralize or perish. It is going to be an extrE!tnely inteJ~esti.ng fC:!tJJ L.4.2 S June 7, 1989 VoJ.

XLI months in this House discussing the budget, Mr. Speaker. What has all of this got to do with the fishery? A tremendous amount, because all these people who are out in Newfoundland trying to bE!nefi t from thE! Rur·al Development Associations and trying to save som~~ money by having medical att.E!ntion close to them, by be ing able to buy clothing for their children with a tax exCE!ption, as thE!Y d:i.d wh~=!n IAJE· WE!re there, make t:hEdr living mainly by fishing, or wor·ki.ng :in the fish plants.

As our stocks are deplE!t :ed, thE!Se people suffE!r, and they will suffE!r 1nor::• if we do not provide the extra services thdt: c.'!re nE!E·d~"d, thE! ser·vict:1s which this governmE!I1t has now made quite clear to them they are going to ignore. Collectively, as I ITI!:: 1ntionE!d last week, we have to deal with this very, very SE!rious issUE!.

On overfishing, over wh ich we have very little or no control, v.Je haVE! to hope that the major federal cornnri t tee, that :ls over in EuJ~opE! right now dealing with the EEC countries, can E!ducate t:hem enough to see that they are also going to be hurt by this overfishing . May be w he n the y r o a l:i . z e 1: he y c'l r c~ hurting themselves they v.dl1 be a little more attentive to our need s. HoWE!VE!r, there arrc~ many morE! thj.ngs we have control over, and we havE~ to mdke surE! that: we do our

part collectively, no t fighting each other, but coLlectively , to makE! sure thclt l:he Province does not suffE!r any more t. han it has be c au s e of serious overfishing and the lack of managE!ITIE!nt. Our best IAJay to do that is to co1lE!Ct :ively cr eab :! an awa r· en e s s wit_ h :i. n our· Pro v :.i. n c E! , and within the circles of the federal No. 9 R4 2 ~'

government, the major makers, and hopefully our which may not be at the 1 eve 1, wi 11 then trans 1 ate other countries that are off our shores. deci.sion concE:~rn fed E!ral to thE ! fishing Mr . SpE:~aker, we w:LJ.J. certainly support the rE!Solution. And, as I mentioned last week, then we incorporate it with the one we presentE!d last WN!k and we would have a tremendous resolution encompassing all the different aspects of the fishery, the differE?nt ways we, through our own mE?ans and methods and our contacts with the fedE!ral governrnE!nt, can addr(~ss the Vi'H'ious concerns. WE~ wiJl cover alJ. the bases.

It is unfortunate t:hat we could not do it collectively as an all party Committee of the House, because then I think we would have real clout and we IJJould show that Newfoundlanders, al] of us, standing together, would be fighting for· the good of the people of Newfoundland. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, he!ar! MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the mE!InbE ~r For St. John's South. MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS : ·------· ····--- Hear, hE!ar! MR . MURPHY : Mr . Speaker, pleasure for the district it is certainly a me, t:he member· For of St .

John's South, opportunity to say a of support for t.hE! put forward by the hon. CarbonE!<H'. to have an few words resolution member for Ll.\.26 June '7, l 989 Vol XLI However, beforE! doing so I am quite surprised to hear thE! hon . member for St. ~1ary' s - - The Cap E!S aJ.luding to the han. LeadE!r of the Opposition as knowing more about the fishing industry than any of the governrnE?nt mE!Inbeins on this sidE!. I arn amazed.

I arn arnaZE!d because seventeen years of cont:inuous Tory administration in this House produced not the problem of the fishery of this Pr·ovince, not the problem of th1:! fishE !ry, but t.hE • t.ragE!dy, Mr . Speaker, of the fishery. Mr. Speaker, t:he hon. ITIE!IIlbliH' for ' St. John's East Extern (Mr. Par·sons) spoke on the fishery dnd he alluded to the inshorE! aspect. I suppose, in all fairn(!SS l:o th(;? han. member, if I only had constituents who dealt with the inshore aspect of the fishery, that is where I would end my comments.

I wouJ.d remj nd the hon . gentleman that when he alluded t:o and ta1ked about. the 1972 trE?aty between Canada and France, which was done by a Ljberal administration, that opened the door for our friE?nds in Fr·anCE! t.:o come OVE!r and fish our ContinE•rd-al Shelf, he forgot one VE!ry important part . He alluded l:o thE~ fact that. he was a fisherman and fishE•d out: of that wonderful community of Flatrock, so scenic, down in the East end.

But I would like to rE?rnind the hon. lrJC'!111be1n, how many nights or ('!arly rno1nning did he look from his w:i.ndoiAJ and see tr·awlers fr·om for(dgn nations raping and di sturbing gear and taking the inshore fishery right fr·om under his nose? And it would SC' t:!ll'l as a point of conVE!n:i .ence, Mr . SpeakE:'r, that the hon. mE!ITibE·r·s oppos:ite forr:JE?t: Lh o late han. Don Jam ieson, who was so ade1.mant and such a spokosrnan not: only for NeiArfoundJ.and but fo 1n No. 9 1~4 26

Canada, the single individual tJJho i ntrodu CE!d the most positive th :L ng that has bE!en done in thE! fishE!ry in l:.his Province since Cabot 1 s landing, and that was the 200 -mile lirntt, Mr. Spt~akE:~r. How soon we forget! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I suppose it may be classified as a little unusual for a rrtE!mber for St.. John 1 s to speak on this very, VE!ry important subject. However, I tAJouJ.d IAJan l:: to infor'm this hon. House l:hat St. John 1s South is one of the largest fishing districts in l:his Province:~. In St.

John 1s South we have a fish plant that dE!als tJJith both offshor'e and inshore spec:Les, all species, on the South side that employs a tremendous amount of people from the district of St. John 1s South. We also have in E!XCE!SS of a 100 inshore licE:~nsed fishermen who fish out of the district of St. John 1s South. So it is wit. h great con c E! r n that I rise to speak on the resolution cts put forward by the hon. member for Cat~bonear·. Mr.

Speaker, when you constder· that we have today in this Province 15,000 liCE!nsed full ··-time inshore fishermen, 16,000 part -time inshore fi s herrnE!n, 1, 600 offshore fishermen and 8,000 plant workers, we are dealing with direct jobs that total in excess of 40,000 in the fishery.

Considering that and the spinoff that takes place at the corner gar'age, or the corner mal.l or the corner store that people who depend solely and wholly on the dollars that are extracted from the fishery to support secondary indusl:ry, you are looking somewhE!rE! :in E!XCE!SS of 4.0 pE!rcent 1..1~2 7 June 7, 1.98~ Vol XL.I of l::he total employable population in this Province . Mr. Speaker', :it is a tragedy. Some time ago, Mr.

Speaker, we were cautioned not only by the scientists, by the people who regulate our resource, namely Ottawa, but probably by the greatest scientists who exist in this Province, and that is the fisher'lnl~n oF Newfoundland, and they know, and tAJelJ. knotAJ that our· stocks are depleting, and they know it because of the empty ne ts, the reduction in incomE:~ that they see week in and week out. Wh~~n we talk about the migh ty codfish, Mr.

SpE!akE!r, l:hE! mainstay of the fishing industry for mof:;l:: of our forefather's, we know tJJhat has happened to tilE! codfish, but thE!re is rnot~E! to ·it l:han just t:.hE! fact that tAle have lost an amount ·. of tonnage From thE ! l"AC. Wt:'! ha1;e aJ.so J.ost the type and qual :ity of fish that makes the fishery a success. If you or any other hon . me rn b E! r i n t h i s H o u s e h ad l: h e opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to tAJaJk into a fish plant todc<Y, you would see the siZE! of our fish greatly reduced. That has a serious conSE!quence, also, Mr. Speaker'.

It brings down the size of our profitable export product, commonly knot.~m in the indu stry as speciaJ.ized packs, that go in to the United Stal:E!S, and to our friends jn Europe and jn Japan. That brings up our lower priced conunodity, such as fis~h block, and the lAJhole indus l:ry, consequently, suffers. Even though the pounds may sU .11 be therE!, !:he y"iuld is down. I L affects inco1ne . We have to grasp that it: is not a si rnp1e indus l::ry but an extremely cornp1E!X industry . Years ago, valuation No . 9 Mr. Speak er, tAlE! put no on so many species of ru~ 2 7

groundfish that today offer Newfoundlanders a tremendous source of income. WE! t.aJ.ked about the codfish and the salmon industry and, of course, crustations, such as lobsb:H' and crab and shrimp. We have gone into the world market place with a quality product, and fought hard to do that, because we had to change attitudes from pronging the fish to proper icing, proper qua1.i ty control, and all other sound aspects that make the fishE!ry such a viable and worthwhile industry in this Province. We are now into, Mr.

SpE!aker, such species as caplin, cotnrnonly knotAJn forty years ago as thE! fE!rtilizer of Newfoundland, todt'l.Y a rnulti-·rnillion doJ.J.ar industry. We are also into redfish, and other· species of diffE!rent types of per·ch. I would suggE!S t to you today, Mr. Speaker, that thE! flats, soJ.e, yellow tail, floundE!r, is thE! saving species on the Grand Banks today in retrospE!C t to the two big companies, Fisheries Products International and National Sea. We haVE! to consider, Mr. Speaker, all aspects.

And as compJex as thE! fishE!ry is, this goVE!rnrnE!nt, i. n its wi s do Ill, has put. tog E' thE! r a sound committee of the han. the PtftE:~mier, thE! hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Carter), and the hon. Minister of DeVE!lopment (Mr. Furey ) , to b r· in g f o r·wa r d a p 1 an to convince thE! highest government position in this country, the Prime Mini stet~, to takE! our action plans as his goal - and not without action plans, Mr.

SpeakE!r, but t!Ji. th action plans, bE! cau s (;! no goals are attainable without action plEHlS - to hand him the torch on behaJf of the 600,000-odd L•~28 June 7, 1989 Vol XLI souls who live ·in this Province and to go forward internationally, Mr. Speaker, and teJ.l the world that Newfoundland needs its resource on its own Continental Shelf. It is ours, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: If a foreign country, Mr. Speaker, walked into the wheat Fields of Saskatchewan or Alberta tomorrow, there wouJ.d bE! revolution. Ther·e wo u 1 d be rat 1: 1 in g of cannon , S i r .

I have bE!en told by our d(=!ep· ···SE!a trawl(~r captains that the Nos~:! d nd Tail of the Grand Banks might very well r·c~rntnd us all of the skylinE! of that great city of Mount PE!ar·l o n any g i v e n c 1 E! a r· n i g h t , lAd t h l: he lights from the foreign trawlers and draggers . There is no way possible, Mr . Speaker, that. our stocks 2J, 3K and E!VE!n the evc~n the stocks off thE! North(:~rn tip of l.abr·ador t.hdt have not yet been studied, can possibly last becauSE! they an! all a migratory stock, Mr. Speak ur·, that move about.

The sad part about it is that \:he fish do not carry any flags on their sterns, as do the trawlers, as they r·a pe, as they take away the bread and b U t t E! r 0 f t h E! p E! 0 p 1 E! .i 11 1: h oL S Province, while your supposed fri1H1ds in OtUw.Ja do nothing, thE! hon. thE! PrimE! Min:i.ster of Canada and his SE!nior CabtnE!t minis I:E!rs, incJ.uding the par·liamentary nternbE!r· for St. John 1 s WE•s t, who, t.old us YE!sterday that. . h(:' was making son1e progress in Brussels . Mr. SpE!aker, thts is a l:ragE!dy. It is a tragedy fo1~ many r·easons.

The pr'E!lJ:ious administration, E!Vory timE! a J.:i.t:.t:lo thunder str·uck, rose and r·anted 1 Somebody s LolE! Lhe shop. WE:~ knotAJ tJJho stoJ.E• the shop!' No. 9 FUI-28

It was th~ inconsistency of the government on this side at that time and point that sold the shop, Mr. SpeakE!r. That is who sold l:he shop. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition, who tvas the Fisheries Minister of this ProvincE! for four years, had ample opportuni t.y to put t.oge!ther a team, a set of action plans, and a goal-- because, Mr. Speaker, his own Tory friends were in Ottawa at the samE! time-- - and address this tragedy. Surely heavens, we knE!W about it.

Wh(:~n I say we knew, I mean our fishermE!n knew and they warned the government at that time what was taking place, that the size of all species was Y'E!ducing. They had ample opportunity to sit down and arbitratE! and concil:i.atE! and negotiatE! wil:h the for·eign countries of the wor1d to put in place a progressive reduction of taking of stocks on thE! Grand Banks in 3K+3KL, to reduce that taking of f is h . It lJ..Ja s not done , Mr. Speaker. There u.Jere no act ion plans.

When the federal government went off to France, agdin I arn sur'E! at that time the Newfoundland Gover·nrnent were much involved, and it is my understanding, Mr. SpE!dkE!r - I stand to be corTE!Ct:E!d that the hon. minister of the day had a spokesperson who went along during those negotiations and, as the allocation of NorthE!I~n cod was d:.ishE!d out to France, I think it is fair to say that everybody sounded surprised that Otb:u.va had given away fish out: of 3Ps, which they said they historically owne!d and 1.vere going to take as much as they wanted L4-29 June '7, 1989 Vol XLI no quota, they set quota.

To try and terrib1e catastrophe taking place in 3Ps - MR...!... , .. _!rJARREN: their resolve that own 1: he 1.va s They wer·e only i:her·e for a short t:Lrne. MR. MURPHY: You know, Mr. Speaker, I an1 thrilled with the hon . member opposite. l-IE! believes so much··- I hal:e to digre~ss Fi~om such a serious subject? -- thE! hon. mernber opposite was such a supporl:!:H' oF Newfoundland Hydroponics. Tomorrow that hon. member, Mr. Speaker, wi .l1 haVE! a chance to show his support as that goE!S on public auction. You should go and buy it, :Hr. SQ~~_H_ON_. .M EM BIB.~ : Hear, hear! MR.

MURPHY: Bring along sonlE! of your· s ·.-L nc(O:~rE! friends. If you believe in it, Sir, you have an amplE! opportunoi. l:y to grow cucumbers for the rE!St of· your natural life. Back to the more ser·tous subject, Mr. Speaker, t·.he fishE!r'y. M1~. Spedker·, wr:.~ have discuss1:!d l:hE! fishery at great length in this House a1rE!ady in this sitl:.ing, i·::.~nd I have heard some very serious conCE!rns from l:he hon. rnE!rnbE!r' For St.. John 1 s East Extern for whorn 1 have t:otal admiration, and frclln thE• hon. the JTH:'I11ber for· St . Mary 1 s The Capes, with whom I share that admiration.

I certainJy concur !J.Ji.th a gi"E!at llli..'!.ny oF l:h1:~ points thcd.. the hon. mombE!r s rnade. But onE! part".icuJ.ar subject: that. has not been brou~Jht l::o th :i.~; House is that the regulators of Occupational Health and Safety concerning the safety and health of our fishermen has not been No. 9 1\4-29

addres.SE!d. EVE!ry year we r·~1ad about. the terr·ible carnage that takes plaCE! in the waters off our Coast. I t..oJould suggest to you, Sir, in the last ten years the annual aver·age is between ten and twelve lives lost. The regulators of the waters of Newfoundland have thrown some kind of an aspiration at both the inshore, the mid--water and i:he offshore fleets in retrospect of their safE!ty. I say to you and su~Jgest to you, Sir, that it is time the regulators had a good, serious look at what is taking place t~.rith rE!SpE"!.Ct to safety.

It is not. onJ.y the responsibility of a regula to1n to r·egula te or to police. Our fE!dE!ral count.E!rparts in Ottawa need to come into this Province and changE! an atU.tude towards Health and Safety to make sure that all our fishermen have the opportunity for training, education and a bet ler and safer way of fishing. I arn sur(:! tJJe importancE! of cannot d·isagre!e need also to be all agree on the l::he stock. WE! that our fishE!r'lnen protected. Mr. Speaker, not only is that support rE!quirE:1d in education and training, but in a rnore tang'.i.blE! way, Mr.

SpE!aker, to offE!r flares, flotation vests, lights. ThE! day has COlliE!, Mr. Speaker, becausC:~ of the circumstance, the tragedy of OVE!rfishing, that WE! have many vessels that are without question undersized. It is not only thE! \:.wo new mid .. -wah~r VE!Ssels that are fishing thE! E!XtlnE!mities of thE! Continental Shelf, it also includes SOI'nE! VE•lny srnaJ.J. VeSSE!lS, Mr. Speaker, forty-five to sixty foot VC:~SSE!J.S, not E!qutppE!d to go that far a.fiE!ld, with four and L430 June 7, 1989 VoJ. XLI five crE!W mE!mbers.

And wh~;;>rl therf:• is a tragedy -and there have been tragedies --and you J.ook Clt t:hf'! accident investigation reports, they are loaded up and proceed with greed on behalf of the Newfoundland fishermen. But the reason the tragedy occurred was because of greed. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is not a fault-finding venture but a fact-finding venture to pass on to our Newfoundland fishr<H'IflE!n a safC::!r way, a rnor·e E!qui table way to harvest the fish stocks of this ProvinCE! w:ithout. endangE!r·:lng l::he:ir· lives. Mr. Speaker, I suggE!S 1: to you and this hon.

House that I support wholeheartedly the resolutLon put forward by the hon. the member for·· Carbonear and, in doing so, rE!COrnrnend that aJ.l members of Lh:i.s han. House suppor·t the 'initiative of this gover'niTient j_n i.ts trtpar·ti.te comrnittE!E! to advdnCE! the action plans of Lhis govermnont and thE! action p1ans, dreams and aspj.rat:i.ons of our' fishetnrnen to ensure thai: l:hE:~ fish stocks have a chance to r·e·coVE!r', Mr. SpE!dkE!r, and wh:ile !:hat l:akes pJ.acE!, that our· fishermen can sttll procure a living. fhank you very much. SOME HON. MEMB~RS: HE!ar, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the mernber for St. John's East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speakor. It is a pr:i.vilE:,ge Fot" me the opportunity today to my place dnd spE!dk lnE!SOlution put for·t.h by the rne1nber· for Cai"bonc~ar·. No. 9 to h6lV E• r·:lsE:' :i.n l:o the the hon. RLJ-30

Before I get into the l:ext of hts resolution, I would like to remind the han. member that whilE! he lJ.Ji:'.IS speaking - I cannot quote him verbatim - he said Carbonear really was not dE!pE!ndent upon t.he fishery.

I would like for the han. member to go down and tell that to the Earles who, t~.d.th their fish plant ouer there, at peak season employ '700 people~, and w:i th their meal plant employ 25 employees year round; the Har·bour Grace Fish10:1ries, at peak, employs 1,000 ernployE!eS, half of which come from Carbonear, and Pat Quinlan employs another 1,000 employees, almost ha1f of thE!fTI fr·om Carbon•?ar . AN HON. MEMBER : That is a hell of a lot of jobs .. MR. PARSONS: WE<l.l, the jobs can be proven they come from. AN HON. MEMBER : are that there, that. is That is false information . MR. PARSONS: and it wherE! No .

I know that is factual. That is where the people come from . AN HON. MEMBER : Do not let them interrupt you . Ml~. PARSONS: They are not intE!rrupting you . If CarbonE!ar ts suruiuing, tE!lJ. mr;;~ Ll..lhat industr·i·~s ar'E:' OUE!Y' there, if they are dE!pending. the same as the rest of Newfoundland, primarily on the fishery. MR. WARREN : Let a guy who knows about the fishery tell you about it. MR. PARSONS: rl~ould <:~1so like Lo commE!nt UE!ry. L431 June 7, J989 Vo1 X L.I uery briefly on my good friend, the member for St. John's South (Mr. Murphy).

HE! lnE!nt.i.ons my looking out through the window and seeing some foreign trauJlt•rs when I L1.Jas fishing. WeJ.J., I was onE! of the culprits, but not in these years when there is a lot of competition, who fished part time. I must say that on occasion I di.d see a tratJ.JlE!r, but I d:i.d not see it from the window because we went fishing at 3:00 o'clock; there w<:H'e no light s on the boats, and we had to be back to go to work at 8:00 . Any time I saw a tr·a, ... iJ.er .i.l: was betLJ.Jeen daylight and da1A1n, and I was in the area that the trawl er was in.

I will reminisce a little bit and tell him that, y•:!s, al:. one time we were close to the land going down one mor·ning and LI..IE! d:id see a t:rawlE•r cJ.oSE!. But I lJJant to rern'.ind the hon. gE!ntlE!lnan as well that that day is ouer. You know, we cannot look to LhE! past. That has been remedied. I am not gcdng to be cr·:i. ticaJ. of the membE!r, bul: he mE!ntions llle talking about the 1972 agJAE!eJw :•nt and how the Prime Minist er of t·:he day. thE:~ hon. PierrE! TrudE!au. br·ought in l:he 200 mi.le lirn.it.

The E!XpedienCE! of it preuailE•d at that particular time. but what ht:! should haue donE! wa~~ go for' ou1A terr·itor·ial l"ights in tl'lE! fishing zone rather than go for the 200 rni.le Limit, because whi3.L hE! <hd was lake the precedent set by Iceland and by the States, where 200 miles cover their f':i.shJ.ng zone. But 200 miles did noL cover the Nose nor the Tail of the Grand Banks. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. PARSONS : And that :is where he erred. lh~ No. 9 R4 .3 J

l..va s in a rush . It wa. s p o 1 it i c a 1 expedience. At that particular time there was going to be an election called and those things happened. But that really was the fault there. MR. WARREN: You can always learn something from an experienced person. MR. PARSONS: The other thing I would like to touch upon is 2J+3KL. Because of pressure from \:he past governmE!nl: most of our local trawlers were fishing :in 3KL; 2J was almost non-existent. as far as they were concerned. It was a rougher area, it was further North, more ice conditions and worse condi ti.ons weather-wiSE!.

But it was because of this government's prE!SSure and because Ottawa did carne in and say, Okay, we are going to have the three parts equally fished, that is 2J+31<L. That is what is happening today. And that heJ.ped the stocks. Because the fish down North, if :Lt is true what Alverson said, and if it is true what the Harris report states, then there is more than one biomass. So that stock could be separatE!, to itSE!lf down in 2J. But at least now they afe fishing that stock proportionately, and it was the present Opposition Leader·, who was then the Minister of Fisheries, who brought this to fruition. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. PA !~SONS: Looking "at thE! han. membE!r' s resolution, the fishing industry is the most critically important industry l:o our Province. I have stated over and OVE!I~, E•very time I get on my fec~t. that if the fishery dies so wiJ.l not only rural Newfoundland but ~ll L4-3 2 June 7, 1989 VoJ Xl..I NE!Wfoundland. Some people have a feeJ.ing that the only part of Newfoundland affected by the fishery is the rural part. You know, about 75 per cent of that is cor·rect.. But we an' hN'E' in ~)t. John's and, believe it or not, there arE! a J.ot: of fishermen in St.

John's; thE!re is a lot of fish landed herE! in St. John's. ThE~ economy of St. John's is subj E!CI:E!d to the fishery, not to a great exb::~nt but to an extE!nt that -.:Ls reaJ.J.y vjsibJ.e. I mean, you have the Saltfish Corporation on the SouthsidE•, you have Nat::i.onaJ. ;:~ea, you haVE! the people l..vho bring l:hE! salt., l.\Jhich is used aJ.J. ovl:H' the Province, so it is an industry that is dependE!nt on alJ ar'ei'l~~ of NE!Wfoundland. I can support that WHEr~EAS. 'WHEREAS the fishE~ry plays a r o 1 e ' . lrJ e j u s t s t a t. r:~ d Uw thE~ fishery plays. There is parallel to it.

It is why ancestors carne over her··e, and will be until times eternity. k E!Y 1~o1 e no our :i. t 'AND WHEREA~3 the fish""ing industry is facing considerable uncertainty.' ThE! Fishing industry was always uncertain. There was an old gentleman down in Flatrock and I often used to heiH' him say 'it carl~tQs no bE!lls.' It djd not then and :i.t does noL nol,J. But at th·.i.s present \:.irrlE!, WE! ar'E• invoJ.ved jn and part of a dilemma. Over \:hE• yec-H'S, fishermen, in partjcuJar, have been stating that the fish are not out. thE!r'e. They can only be caught oncE!.

If t..ue had 1.i.stt::'ned to sorne of the fisheriTIE!n over' lhe YE!ars we might bE! bcd:ter or~f. Anol:hE•r important aspt:!ct of this: T h e of F s h o r E! i s c o Ill p a r a t. :i v e 1 y n e 1,1 , but the technology that: t>Jas used in Newfound1and, be] :i.eVE! it Ol" not, camE! fl''OTn fishing E!XpE•r'i!C!rJCE' No. 9 R4-32

in North Sea, and it: is only not.u because of the djfference in the clirnal:e and l:he diffE!rence of water temperatures, and whatever, that we have an infusion of our ot.un technology. We are not thE!re by any means, but we are geU:ing there. The other thing that surprises me, and I have heard about it recently, is that WE! have pE!Ople on one of those commissions at least, or a person, who implied that perhaps some of the blame should be laid on the inshore fishermen, the trap fishermen. Now, let us go back in timE! a little and find out about the trap fishery.

ThE! first trap was made by Sir William Whiteway, and William Whiteway was not a Newfoundlander. William Whiteway came from Boston and settled on t:he FrE!nch sidE! of Labrador. He made the first codtrap in 1871. Before that he fishE!d with salmon nets, so he USE:1d to take so much of the cor'k off the salmon nets and sink it wjth sand bags or rocks or whateVE!r. This t.uas the way they fished. In 1871, he fished with thE! first codtrap. As we all know, Sir William Whiteway became a politician and he SE!rVE:~d this House from 1889 to 1893.

Now that is how long the trap fishery has been in existence in NE!Wfoundland -- a long, long l:'ime. Mr. Speaker, I heard the hon. member also mention the numbers of inshore fisherlrtE!n i.~s cornpar'c~d to the numbers of offshore fishE:H'lnE!n. That is thE:~ crux of it. That is totally we are aJ.J. looking at. Whc:!n I speak about the inshore, when I speak about the devastat :ion caused by the trawlers, I am lookjng at aJ.l those people. Sure I come from an inshore district; all the fishing that takes place there is L4 .3 3 JUnE! 7, 1989 Vol XLI completely inshore.

I go down on the wharf in the mornJng now and I seE! what comes into Torbay, and I SN! what fish is coming int.o Flatrock, and what the ruckers ar·e getting doum in the gut, on the Southside. I rnean, it ·.is SIT!i".dl fish. What they are saying is that it is small fish becausE! thE! traps ar(' catching aJ.J t:he sma1J. fish.

Tr'aps do not catch a gt"oat amount of fish anyway, but, by thE! same token, what we are saying now has to be true because the fish o u t t h (H' e , the t h r' e E.' and f o u r y ear oJd fish, is not corning into land, it :is not thc::H'e to comE! in; it is caught, it ts lTIUI~dE•rE!d out thN'E! where they are spawn"ing. I tfl (!dl'l, that is our problem, as far as I am concernE!d, and it is l:.hE• opinion of a gr·eat number of people besides myself. Fish comE! togEd:her to spat.un. Hou-J many people in this Hon . House have been on a river when the trout t.uere spauming?

They at'E! dead, they are not lively, they arE! together. And thE! same thj ng holds true for the cod stocks. The cod stocks, for one rE!ason C>r' other, all come togE!l :hE!r' to spdLvn and we just lE! ·t. pE!opJ.e go in and throw down .those dragned:s. We all understand what those dragnets are. They can devastate the stocks. Can you imaginE! uJhat·. is happening to those fish in that area whE!n alJ. this is happening? What is not killed, is maimed, dE!Stroyed, and IAJE• jusl: cannot br ·ing l:he fish into being, WE! cannot have thE! fish bor·n as quickly as they arE:~ br:•ing kill::~d.

It is just. as sirnple a~~ that. We have people today who say that the inshore fishery shouJ.d take a cut. My goodn::•ss, Lvha\: lAr.ill happen to the communities around Newfoundland if the inshore fishery has to take a cut? It could nE!VE!r happen. Ii: is No. 9 R'l·3 3

ridiculous! We haVE! to 1ool< at overfish:lng by foreign countries. The experts, the scientists tell us there is about 20 pE!r CE!nt involvement in the offshore that relates to our· reduction in the cod stocks. In other words, we have 80 per cc~nt control. I have said it and I t~.rill say it again, if we can control that 80 per· cent. then we should be able to sustain that cod stock. It. has also been asked, and I have asked myself on occasion, can we ever expect to have that stock replE!nished t:o the 1960 status?

I was told by a scientist in BFO that he did not believe that. it. could ever come back to that healthy state. So what we are saying is, we have dom~ a rnarnrnouth job, we have really done a job on ourselves and on our· OlJ.Jrl stocks. and we do not know if it. can ever be remedied. The stocks ~re in trouble, they are declining. Dr. Keats told us that in J 986. He told us that HIE! stocks were not out there, that people were not sure, that. the rnethodolOIJY we usc~d IAJas insufficient and they did not know if the stock was there or not. OnE! study aftE!r thE! other is reasserting what he told us in 1986.

We can have all the studies done, or whatever, study after study --WE! ar·e studied to death. If we keep on studying, by the timE• thE:~ studies arE! aJ.l finished there will be no fish to catch. All 1..1.1e have to do is bE• SE!nsible and rE!al-.ist.ic. I agree that thE!rE! is going to be hardship in the f.ishE!l~y. Mr. SpeakE!r, but rE!lTIE!l'nbE!r that the inshorE! fish~1rmen altJ.Jays had hardship. It was never provided year---round employment; it was always a seasonal thing.

Agc:dn, someonE! is ~Joing to haVE! to b"i.l:e the buLlet, and pc:H·haps so1ne L4-34 June 7, 1989 VoJ XLI ar·eas in do just !"eduction certainly shou1d be the offshore will have to that. There has to bE· a in the quota, but none of that. reduction in the inshore fishery. I WE!l'lt down yes tE!r·day morning and watched the fishermen come with their· catches of s alrnon. OnE! gentleman had seVE!ntE!E!n saJ.mon and two of those were in excess of ten pounds. The others IJ.Jere• what. IJ.JE! used to ca11 capltn salmon. The days of the salmon have passed. They are gone.

Th~~r·~;! '.i.s a month of the saJ.mon fishery gonl'!, so it SE!E!ITIS like ever·yonE• 'is tr·ytng t.o take sornE!thing awclY From t1·1E:! inshorE! fishel"Jnen, even t.he salmon, which IJ.Jas suppJem~:!nt~in~J their salary. ThE!re t~1as a led: of money madE! :ln sa]rnon -· .. a Jot. of rnonE!Y -right along \:hE! Nor·thE!t'!St Coast. Those dolJ.ars aJ"e not coming in now, and we all know why. We arE:~ srnaJ.l, thE!r'E• ar'E! on1y 500,000 of us, and \::he dollars that COlli(:~ from thE! cornnwrciaJ fishery are not great.

But, sU.J.J., can you J.ook at the fi~~hf:H'Y in that resp1:oct and say thi.s is grE•at, there are so many people involved hE!re, thE!re cH'E• so many dollars involved here? What you havr:?. to· do is look a\: l:h::! N E! wf o u n d 1 and f i s her y a n d s a y , t hi s is a fishE!ry of \:he:~ people, l:hi.s is a fishery of every community and every cove in Newfoundland. You know, we ta1k about jur::i.sdiction and thE!

French right to fish in 2J+3KL. fhe French would have beE!l'l out there fj shin<_:] bE!fore, becauSE! at l:hat t.i..rn~:! .in Ottawa, in 1972, the Canadian government d-.id give the French the r·ig ht to f:i s h. Not.o~J t.: hey ar'E! look-.ing for that r:lght because they have squandered, they have destroyE!d thE! cod stocks in 3PS. I do not know the answer to it. No. 9 r~LJ 3 4-

I would like to be able to say that I have an answer to it.. You see out there the stocks declining, the increase in seals and the potE•ntial the seals have, and what can you do? Can you go out and use gunboat diplomacy? Can you br:Lng out: our Navy, which means spreading it OVE!r that vast area out there, and shoot them if they come in. MR. WINDSOR: Nuclear submarines. MR. PARSONS: Well! AN HON. MEMBFR : It floats. MR. PARSONS : It floats, yes . fish food. It 1nay be good But I do not know what the answer is. I mean, I do not think Canada as a country has the answer to all of it.

But: going back t.o t:he Nose and thE! Tail of the Grand Banks, it has to be handled with diplomacy. It certainly cannot be done by force. We do not have the force to do it t.lli th. We do not have the whE!rewithal to accomplish that. I think it can be done through nE!got.iation. Everyone saw as wel1 as I did that the Pr·ime Minisb::~r did meet with the President of Spain and they did speak about the problems over here. I think he realize s, as does the Prime Minister, that there is a prob1E!TT1, Mr. Speaker, ctnd hopefully something will come from it.

But when pointing fishermt:!n reduction fishE!r'ln E!n, I heard that they were a finger at thE• insholnE' as it pE!rtained to the in the cod stocks, trap boy, did I get solllE! LlJ.3 5 JUnE! 7, 1989 Vol XLI charge out of that. I was :i.n the poJ.icE! forcE:~. I aJJAJays Ud.nk about things that ha.ppr::•nE!d and that, to me, is Like when a pE!J"son breaks into a store, knocks the window out, and the man who OIAJnS the store is charged. It i.s as simple as that. The perpetrator is personifiE!d and the victim :i.s toJ.d, 'Well, now, you caused this.' It is just as fool ish as that.

If the Minister of Fisheries were here now I would be speaking direct]y to him and saying, I hope that grr:!a ·t r;!ITJp!·J<''J.Sis is placed on thE! inshorE· fi shory as we ll as the ofFshor ·E• fi shE!ry . As I have said, pE:~ople are going to be hur·t. We do not haiH! thE! fish. Tht:~ fish :Ls not out there, so we just cannot catch it . And present circumstanCE! S will d:lctate our Future; the c:irculllstancc;:! S or-­ the day, the way we act:, IAJhat: IAJE' do, will be the essence oF our future. I have no objection to the resoJ.ution as pr'E!SE!nted by the han. the mE!ITJber fo1n Carbon'''ar.

I think, again, that we shou]d a]] co-ordinate our effort and bring it to bear on thE! pou.Jers that be, federally and locally, and I thLnk common sense wil] prevaJ 1. I think people out Hl::!re rE!aliLE! t:he cod stock is dwindling. I hope we can cornE! to a satisfactory concJ.usion. Aga:Ln, I iAdLI CE~rtainly be support~ing ti'IE' resoJ.ution put forward by the hon. the member for Carbonear. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . DUMARESQUE: Mr. Speakt:~r . MR . SPEAKER: The han. thE~ l'llE!InbE!r for· Eagle No. 9 RlJ.3S

R.iVE!r. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! ~[i_~_illll_B._ R E s_gQ_~ : Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker. It is certainly a pleasure to rise in this House again and debate this important subject. It is certainly a pleasure to rise as l:he son of a Labi"ador fishE!nnan. It is certainly a pleasure to rise repreSE!nting one of the gr't:!at fishing districts of our Province. Eagle RivE:~r. Mr. Speaker, over Uw next number of minutes I would like to address a number of things.

First of all, I would like to talk about a number of the problE•ms in my district it relating to the fishE!I~y. I touched upon a numbE!r of these things in a broad and gerHH'al manner in my maiden address last week. but I would certainly like to touch a couple of them again to bring the problE!ms of the fishery into tht:dr prope•r prospE!Ctive for' a11 mE!ITibE!rS and certainly to try to get the necessary concurrence of my colle•agues if therr~ are changes to bE! made. I might point out. Mr. Speaker, that I am VE!ry E!ncoura<jed by two members from St. John's. the member for St.

John's South and the member For St. John's East ExtE!rn. whom I l!.Jould l:ike to congratulate them on their speeches and their insight into the fishery, I look forward to L436 June '7. 1989 Vol XLI having rnor'e conversations u.Jil:h and hearing mort~ from thE:se gent.Jernen to see that they put forward their support for the proper direction of our' fishery. Now. Mr. SpE!akE!r, 1ast season the fishery in the Strait of Belle Isle was onE! of the worst that we have seen in the last tWE!nty five years. WE! have neVE!r' seEHl such a devastating fishery.

There were times up to around the August 1 of last yt~ar whE!n thE!rE! tAJas not $1.00 made by any fisher·rnen fro111 L'Anse-au-Clair to Red Bay, Mr. Speaker. That was the pl:i.ght of the Labrador fishery in the Strait of Belle Isle last year. The his tori cal problolfls are a ltAJay s there. TherE! is cE·rtainly no doubt that there are some harsh rE:~alit.ies, but people have got to gE!t togethE!l~ to rE!COgnize some of the problc:~ms. This season we have SE!en anothE•i" development. Mr.

SpE!aker, !".:hal: I think is going to add more harshness to our individual fishermen along t.hE:' Labl"ador coast and. inciE:!ed, dr'amatic :impact upon the Coastal Labrador economy. This year the Canadian Saltfish Corporation had decided two things: OrH?., that thE!Y are• nol~ going to buy any fresh fish unciE•r' eighteen inches in length. rhey wj]l not buy any fid1 undei" eighteen :inches in length. Mr.

Speaker, I submit that this l,\J".U 1 mean that hundreds of people along the Labrador Coast will either not qualify for unE!InployrnE!nl: insul~ancE• benefits this year or. if they do, their bE•nefits tJJill be dr'ast·.icaJly rE:~duced from IJJhat t~hey got -i.n previous yE!ars. ~Jow !:he ~3altf·oLsh Corporation says that they cannot buy that particular fish because they are having problems getting that particular fish to the market-place in the European No. 9 I~ lj.3 6

... countries . However, I could certainly understand the problems that any fish company would have trying to sell t:hr:!ir products. But, Mr. Speaker, when it comes down to fish or people, when it comes down to profit or loss, when it comes down to dignity or no dignity, I do not believe there is any dispute about what the answer should be. I do not believe that there should ever be a point, Mr. Speaker, a Crown corporation of the federal government, the gr'~::~at moneybags of the federal government, when it comes down to a couple of million dollars. Mr.

Spe!akE!r, and they say to us: "No, pE!Ople, no, Coastal Labrador. There has to be a break -even in the Saltfish Corporation and. thE! ref orE!. you have to suffer the impact of that ." Let those people come down, Mr. Speaker. to thE! Coast of Labrador next Winter and SE !e what affects that particular decision have upon the!m. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. DUMARESQUE: I u.Jould venturE! to say. Mr. Speaker, that not one of these decision makers. not onE. ~ of these experts in the fishery will ever carne and take pal~t in the f'ish::!ry on thE!

Labrador Coast und(:'r thE!Se conditions and certainly. if they ever do, will never live there because they will never be able to cope with the economic repercussions of the present situation. The othe!r Corporation not. to do thing the Saltfish l:hi.s year' has dec. i.dc~d is put: on a coJ.lector l_lU7 June 7, 1.~89 Vol XU system this year to bring fish from the Black Tickle - Batteau arE!a of Labrador. We hc .. ld a gJ.ut there last year. Mr. Speaker, LUE• had hundreds of thousands of pounds of fish thrown away, hundred of thousands of doJ.lars put over the side of the boat, Mr .

Speaker·, bE!Cause then1 was no proper collection system in place. There was nothing put j n place by the provincial or federal governments that would ease the burden and take the fish l:.hE! fishenm~n so desperately wanted to s e 11 , and e i Uw r h a v c~ l~ hat rna n E! y put into their own pockets or that fish brought up to the resource -short plants in the Labrador Straits. That was lAJhat happ!::Hlt:1d last YE!ar. Mr. Speaker, and this YE!ar th e Saltfish Corporation are refusing to put on any typE! of co1Jec'lor system.

Ther-efor 'e, if there':! i.s a glut in the Black Tickle area again this year. you lArill seE! that a number of t.hE! communi ti E!S in t1·1c! Labrador Strait ·- Rc::~d Bay. PiniAJare, West St. ModestE!, Forteau, L 1 Anse-au-Clair • in particular - will bo hi t dramatically, Mr. Speaker, and adversely afFected by a] l stretches of the imagination. CertainJ.y. these kinds of decisions cannot be allou.Jt:>d, it: cannot be permitted to continue. Anol :her problem, Mr.

Speaker, tha t has always come up on the Coast of Labrador, as I arn su1~e it comes up in differ -ent parts of the Island, is their problem with unemploymen t i n s u r· a n c e a n d t h e p r-o s E! n t s y s 1': E! rn of unemployment. insurance re]atin~J to fishermen and their wo rkers. Fjsherrnen on t.he Coast : of l..abl~ador are not allowed to dr aw unemployment insurance benefits bc~for '(;• Novt~tnber' 15 of c;vory yu,'l.r and that has to end, Mr. Speaker, No. 'J Rl~3 7

on May 15 of the fo] 1olAJing YE!ar. I pointE!d this out earlier and I want to re-emphasize it again, because nobody he1~e, Mr. Spl,!aker, can understand thE! ext.E!nt of the damage it does to individual families along the Coast of Labrador when you have to go the two worst times of the year, just before Christmas when you look forward to having cash available to buy things for your childr·en, when you cannot have that b:i. t of cash corning into your household to be able to give them thE· benefits of this wonderful season of Christmas. But on the other side of the coin, Mr.

Speaker, you cannot imagine the despair, you cannot imagine the feeling of uncertainty, the feeling of frustration, the fee1ing of bEdng lE!ft out on the Coast of l.abrador on May 15 of every year whE!n you know that you wiJ.l have to go for at J.east a month or up to two months without a dollar corning into your house. You cannot under·stand the uncertainty, Mr. Speaker, of the pt:~ople thE!re, on May 15 of cwer·y year, especially from the Lodge Bay area Nor·th to Car·twright and Paradise River. All these communi ties, about 14 cornrnun:i ties, Ml". SpE:1aker, move outsidE! j_n the Summer.

Where we have 11 or 12 permanent communities in the Winter, we now have about 60 small communities in thE· SumrnE!r; pE1ople move out so thc~y can go wherE! the fish are. But E!VE!ry YE!ar to get into the fishery they have to co1ne in and buy their supplies, buy their gr·ocE1r·ies and buy tht:>.ir nets, and they have to do all this on a gamble, on a total gamble, that, yes, there wi11 bE! a fishta·il come ashorE!. Thd.t is unjust. I be]ievE• thE!rE! should bE! great recognition of this particular situation, and it 1_4-38 June '7, 1989 Vol XLI should be bo