MG-8048 Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C_ Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLII No. 92 • 1 :30 p.m., TU ESDAY, JUNE 29, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affil iation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARST AIRS, Sharon CE RILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMM! NGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWA R, Gregory DO ER, Gary DO WNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCH ARME, Gerry, Hon. EDW ARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon . FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDR Y, Neil GIL LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUHEUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAUREND EAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE :, James, Hon. MciNTO SH, Linda, Hon. MITCHEL SON , Bonnie, Hon. ORCHAHD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENN EFt, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNnC, Darren, Hon. REID , Dc;1ryl REIMER, . Jack REND ER:, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conr ad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STO RIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWC HUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTI TUENCY Os borne' Thompson Wellingt1)n River He,ights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russe ll Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Viirden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charlesw ood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescen twood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emer son Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gla dstone• Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Veren drye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan RiVEir Rossmere Rupert sland The Maple·s PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liber al PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liber al PC Liber al PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4907 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 29,1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUT INE PROCEEDINGS PRE SENTI NG PETITIONS Mr. George Hlc kes (Poin t Douglas}: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Benny Wood, Bur t Wood, Ol iver Harper and other s requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to consider making as a major priority the establishment of a solvent abuse trea tment fa ci li ty in northern Manitoba. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson}: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sherry Wood , Dominic Wood, Bella Wood and others requesting the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) to consider making as a major priority the establ ishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have review ed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes) . It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remna nt) : The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly she weth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the high est rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently at tempting to get off welfare and upgrade their edu cation thro ugh the Student Social Allowances Program; and WHERE AS Winnip eg already has the highes t number of people on welfare in decades; and WHER EAS the prov in cial gove rnment has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and WHERE AS the provincial government is now propo sing to elimin ate the Student Social Allowances Program; and WHERE AS elimin ating the Student Social Allowances Program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full-time edu cati on, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lativ e Asse mbly of Man itoba may be pleased to request the Minis t er of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. Mr. Speaker: I have review ed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Martindale ). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manit oba humbly shew eth that: WHERE AS Manit oba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 1 ,000 young adu lts are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their educ ation through the Student Social Allowances Program; and WHERE AS Winn ipeg already has the highes t number of people on welfare in decades; and WHERE AS the provi ncial government has already changed social assistance rules resulting in incr eased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and WHERE AS the provincial government is now propo sing to elimin ate the Stude nt Social Allowances Program; and WHERE AS elimin ating the Student Social Allowances Program will resu lt in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full- time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers.

WHEREF OR E your petition ers humbly pray that the Legis lative Assem bly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minis ter of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to conside r restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program.

4908 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA June 29, 1993 PRE SENTING REPORT S BY STANDIN G AND SPECIAL COMMilTEES Mr. Ben Svelnson (Chairp erson of the Stand ing Comm 11ttee on Municipal Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs. Mr. Cle,rk (William Remnant): Your Standing Commi ttee on Munici pal Affairs pre sents the followin�l as its Second Report. Your committee met on Friday, Jun e 25, 19 93, at 12 :30 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legi slative Building to consider bi lls referred. Your committee heard repres entation on Bill 38, The Ci ty of Winnip eg Amen dmen t, Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and

Summary Convictions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Vi iJ,e de Winnipeg, Ia

Loi sur Jes municipalites, Ia

Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire et Ia

Loi sur Jes poursuites

sommaires, as follows: Mr. David Vincent - Private Citizen Mr. John Angus - City of Winnipeg Mr . Ed Blackman and Mr. Paul Moi st - Canadian Union of Public Employees Mr. John Ryan - Private Cit izen Your committee has considered: Bill 38 -- The Ci ty of Wi nni peg Amendmen t, Muni cipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and Summa ry Convict ions Amendmen t Act ; Loi modifiant 1ia

Loi sur Ia Ville de Winnipeg, Ia

Loi sur Je s municip alites, Ia

Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire et Ia

Loi sur Je s poursuites

sommaires and has agreed to re port the sa me with the following amendmen ts: MOTION: THAT Cl au se 402( a}, as set out in

section 22 of the Bill, be amended by striking out ",gymnasiums and libraries," and by subs tituting "and gymnasiums". MOTION: THAT

section 22 of the Bill be struck out and the following subs tituted: 22

Section 402 is amended (

a) by renumbering it as subs ection (1 ); (

b) by st riking out the

section heading and subs titiUting "P ublic facilities and se rvice s"; (

c) by striking out clause (

a) and subs tituting the folk>wing: (

a) es tablish and regu late public facilities and services, including , without limiting the generality of the foregoing, swimming pools, arenas, lei s ur e centres and gymnasiums, and may pres cribe the fee or charge for the us e of any public facilit y or the provi sion of any service to the public and may authorize the use of any facility or provision of any se rvice on any day of the week; (

d) by addi ng the following as subsection (2): Free use of libr ary by reside nts and electors 402(2) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, the city shall permit the residents of the city to have free us e of the cir culating and reference book :s of every pub lic li br ary and br anch it maintains. All of which is re spect fully submitted. Mr. S11elnson: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be receiv1:1d. Motion agr eed to. * * * Mrs. Louise Dac qu ay (Chai rperson of Comm ittees) : Mr.

Speak er, the Comm ittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit agai n. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Venmdrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agr eed to. • (1 335) TABLING OF RE PO RTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister respon sible for Sport): Mr. Speaker, I am pleas ed to table the 19 93-94 Departmen tal Expenditure Es timates for Fitness and Sport. Hon. Gl len Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 19 91 -92 Annual Re port of the Manit oba Cr op Ins ur ance Corporation.

Hon. Lilnda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Co·rporate Affa irs) : Mr. Sp eak er, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Es timates for the De par tment of Consumer and Co rporate Affairs, 19 93-94.

Ju ne 29, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANI TOBA 4909 Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Minister of Finance}: Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to table a couple of reports, the Suppleme ntary Informa tion for Legis lative Review '9 3- 94 De par tmental Expenditure Estimates, Department of Finance, and also the Supplementary Information dealing with '93-94 Reve nue Estimates. INTRO DUCTION OF BILL S Hon. Leon ard Derkach (Mini ster of Ru ral Developme nt}: Mr. Speaker, may I have leave of the House to introduce a bill at this ti me? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to introduce Bill 54? [agreed] Bill 54- The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act

(2) Mr. Derkach : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay}, that Bill 54, The Municip al Asse ssment Amendment Act (2} (L oi no 2 modifiant Ia Loi su r !'evalua tion municipale} , be introduced and that the same be received and read for the first ti me. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advi sed of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table his message. Motion agr eed to. TABLING OF REPO RTS (conti nued} Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines}: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may have leave to revert to the Tabling of Reports.

Mr. Speake r: Does the honourable minister have leave to revert to Tabling of Reports? [agreed] Mr. Downey : Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the An nua l Re port of the No rt hern Af fairs department for 19 91 -92 and the Annual Report '92-93 for Energy and Mines department. • (1 340} ORAL QUESTION PE RIOD APM Management Consu ltants St. Bon iface Hospital Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon}.

Mani tobans are very con fus ed and a lot of people are in a lot of fear about what is going on with the multimillio n- dollar American consu ltants hir ed by the provincial government dealing with health care. Mr. Speake r, in this House last week, the Min ister of Health indi cated very clearly that the Connie Cur ran consulting contract was not tied to the layoffs at St. Boniface Hospital. He went on to say in Hansard on June 15 : You "will find that it is not attached to the Connie Cu rran process as he would ... allege and mislead Manitobans about," in answer to a question the member for Kildonan (Mr.

Chomiak} asked. Mr. Speaker, in the media, the same minis ter went on to say: Do not make the mistake of linking Cur ran's in itia tive , because appreci ate that Curran's ini tiative was begun formally eight weeks ago, and this process of dis cussion is in terms of rea ching deliver abl es. This is not a provision which was attac hed to the APM contract. We now find out in Art icle 3(1 } of the contracts tabled yester day, all changes to the cost structure of the St. Boniface General Hospital since '92-93 revenue base will be eligible to count toward the target.

The admin istrator of the hospital goes on to confirm that the $8 million in cuts could be calculated as part of the $20-million target for St. Boni face Hospit al. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon}, Mr. Speaker, because I think it is up to the person who is in charge of this gove rnment to clear up the confusion , will the '92-93 base year be used for purposes of calculating the Cur ran form ula for reaching her target? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health}: Mr.

Speaker, that is precisely why at 2:30 yester day afte rnoon, I tabled for my honourable friend the critic for the Ne w Democr ats the cu rrent agreement. One might refer to page 4789 wherein I said, I am tabling it at this time so that my honourable friends in the New Democrats could have their an alysts go thr ough the cont ract, and we could resume the de bate of Estimates at eight o'clock last night and deal with all of the issues and concerns that might come out of their study of the contract, and I might add, Mr.

Speaker, in the most open fashion that cont racts with consultan ts have ever been presented to the people of Manitoba.

4910 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 At 10 minut es to five, not one single question about th!3 APM con tract and St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre or any other init iative, was posed, pn�cisely for the reason that my honourable friend can now continue to try and paint incorrect information. If I can indicate to my honourable friend, the

article that he is quoting from, I would advise my honou rable friend to be ext re mely cau tious in as suminu that the princ ipals of St . Bon iface Hospital, their comments were accurately reflected in that paper, because those were not the comment s that wer e made, an d that possibly explains why there wer e no dir ect quotations arou nd an y of the comment s at tribu ted to the spokesmen for St. Boniface Hospital. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the contract does provide a base line of funding , 19 92 -93 , from which the achievable' targets of savings will be calculated in order to determine the effe ctiveness of the APM Consul tants and their work within the St. Boniface Hospital and Health Scien ces Centre. I say with all the integrity I can muster to my honourable friend, the statements I made in quest ions previous were correct. Benefits Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposit ion): Mr.

Speaker, what we wanted to know was whether the Curran contract was for cuts that were made after the '93-94 year when the person's contract was hired, or whether, in fact, it was used in the '92-93 base year. Obviously, the mini ster, in his convoluted way, answered the same way as the administ rator from St. Bonifac•e. Clearly, the base year under 3(1 )(

c) of the contract is clearly '92-93, in which case the $8 million could be calculat ed in terms of the Cur ran contract. Here we are seeing $3 .9 million U.S. spent at a time when things are tough, when decisions are to ugh, when seni ors are un der tremendous pressu re. I would lif•e to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): The government of Manitoba had a sh utdown clause in the contr act if no agreement s were signed prior to May 31 , 19 93. Why did the gover nment proceed wit h the $3 .9-millio n con tract wit h the U. S. con sult ant?

What benefi ts did they see for Mani t oba to spen d this kin d of money on the $3 .9-m illi on con trac t, parti cularly when you consider that the cut s already made will be calculated on the base '92-93 fiscal budget year? • (1 34 !5) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speak•er, despite my answers this afternoon and previous, my honourable friend persists in putting incorrect information on the record. I cannot stop my honourable friends from doing that. That is precisely why I tabled the con tracts at 2:30 yesterday afternoon.

It might be appropriate for me to in dic ate what I said to the member for Kildonan (Mr. Ch omiak) and the NDP when I tabled those contracts yesterday. I tabled the contracts for my honourable friends, meaning the member s of the New Democratic Party, " ... knowing that they may want to have this information at their disposal, so they can have their analysts go over it in the next couple of hours, and then wet can spend the balance of this evening and tomorrow and the next day and any amount of time my honourable friends want, to discuss the issues." Mr.

Speaker, after that very generous offer, New Democirats chose not to pose a question. They posed :�ere questions , Sir, because they do not want to have information. They want to continue to put th1 3ir ver sion out which is laced wit h inaccuracies. Home Care Program Mr. Gar y Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Will the Premier (Mr. Filmon) start getting control of his Heal th minister? The Pr emier fired this person when he• was his depu ty leader because he had no con trol of him five year s ago, and now he is wreaking havoc on our health care syst em, Mr. Speake tr.

It is time the Pr emi er took some leade rship on this issue. On JUine 15 , Mr. Speaker, the minister told us that the Cur ran con tract would not in clude the cutbacks at St. Boniface. Clearly, the con tract states the '92- 93 year will be eligible. I would like to ask the Premier: In light of his Conservative gover nment cutb acks now in Home Care, Mr.

Speaker, which will allegedly save $3 million, which is less than what they are paying for the U.S. consultant, $3.9 million U.S., in light of the fac t that the mi nist er yester day tabled four contracts in the Legislature and he did not table the contract dealing wit h Home Care, will the Home Care contract also be '92-93 base year? Will it also

June 29, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4911 include the massive cuts that have been made by his Mi nister of Health in terms of her bounty or calculation for her contract? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speak er, one could talk about leadership and ability to provide a vision for the future, and one could talk about the lack thereof in the NDP ranks, because I consistently tried to get my honourable friends the New Dem ocrats to give us some alternatives, if they did not like what we are doing. We know what New Democrats are against. We do not know what they are for.

We do not know whether they are for closing 52 hospitals, like they are in Saskatche wan. We do not know whether they are for closing major hospitals, as they are in Vancouver. We do not know whether they are for all sorts of activ ities. We do not know. But, Mr. Speaker, what we do know is in the record, because I shared the incr eases in Home Care in Esti mates with my honourable friends, and I refer my honourable friend the New Democratic Leader to page 4500 and on in the Estimates. Furthermore, I want to tell my honourable friend what Home Care has done.

My honourable friend in d icated cutbacks in Home Care; 19 92 ov er 19 91 -let me talk to my honourable friend. Home care attendant services were up by 7.2 percent, registered nursing services up by 15 .5 percent, li censed practical nur sing ser vi ce up by 20. 7 perce nt- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Home Care Program Premier's Intervention Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, last week, when we asked the min ister about the cancellation of the Home Care Program and the result that other services have to be made up to try to make up for some of that cance llati on, the Min ister of Health blamed us.

He blamed the previous government. He blamed the media. He bla m ed the world for the cancellation of his program, taking $3 million out of the pockets of senior citizens and making them pay for a service that was always offered. My que stion to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is: Will the Premier step in and get some control on this Minister of Health? Will he stand up for the senior citizens of the province of Manitoba and stop this minis ter from wrecking the Home Care services program? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, I find it really, really in teresting to watch New Democrats in opposition reject the policy put in place in 19 85 by Howard Pawley, Premier, by Larry Desjard ins, Minis ter of Health, called Support Services to Seniors, wherein those services, when established in the community, would provide home cleaning, meal preparation and laundry services with the senior citizen requir ed to pay for th em. Now, my honourable friends, in 19 85, the New Democrats in government, in troduced that program as ver y progressi ve , as a bette r utiliz ation of resource, and, quit e frankly, Sir, we agreed.

We have conti nued with that program, and we have fu rthered the completion of that program in this year's budget estimate. Now, my honourable friend says we are taking money from the pockets of seniors today, but, Mr. Speaker, it was all right to do it when you were a New Democrat in 19 85 as part of progressive reform of health care that was going on even then. What is the change, other than the fact they are in opposition today? • (1 350) Layoff Statistics Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is again to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) because the mini ster seems to be- impossible for him to answer the question. How does the Premier justify the layoff of 1 ,500 workers , un precede nted in hea lth care in this province, 1 ,500 Home Care homemakers who provide these services? How does the Premier justify these 1 ,500 people possibly being out of work as a result of the layoff and the cancellation of this program? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, that is the problem we have wit h the the atre from the NDP , the theatre of fea rmonger ing, the the atre of the television camera, the theatre ; not accuracy, not truth, but fearmongering and theatre. I refer my honou rable friend Mr. Chom iak , because it was a question by Mr. Chomiak carried on page 4499 of Hansard, wherein we went into the ex planation of Home Care services and the incr eases that we expect to provide : The year '92

4912 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA Ju ne 29, 1993 over '91 , an in crease in VON, 4. 7 perce nt, an in crease in licensed practical nursing services of 20.7 percent, an in crease in re gist ered nursing services of 15 .5 percent, an increase in the home care att endant ser vices, 7.2 per cen t, but a reduction in home support workers by 6.2 perce nt because more services were provided by Support Servi ce: s to Se ni ors Progr ams. That trend continues, Sir.

That i�> why on pages 4499 and 4500, the in creased hours of VON nur sing, of registered nur sing, of home su pport worker or home care attendants is showing up in this year's Estimates, adding to the incr eases from 19 92 with increases in 19 93-inc reased services, not cutbacks, as my honourable friend wants to mi slea d the public int o believing. Funding Reinstatement Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): And the mini ster might add, a cancellation of $3 -m illion worth of services for laundry, homekeeping and for meal service to seniors that they are now going to have to pay out of their own pockets.

My fi ned supplement ary to the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon), who should un derst and , who said yester day on TV he needs help for someone to carry his loags: Will the Premier understand that these people need this help in their homes, they deserve h19lp in their homes, and will he rein in his Min ister of Health and reinstitute the program? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, with all the sincerity I can offer to my honou rable friend, I would li ke to help my honourablt9 friend communicate truthfully facts and figures prE�sen ted to him in Estimates, facts and figures pretsented to him over the last five years. New De mocra ts have said there ha ve been cutbacks i1n the Home Care Program when the budget has gone from $34 million, when they were last in govE1rnment, to $68 million this year. How can you call a doublin g of a program a cutback? Only a New Democrat in opposi tion could be that dishonest wit h the people of Mani toba. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let my honourable friend- Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Spea ke•r, on a poi nt of order, we have sat rather patiently wai ting for answers from the minister, but if the minister is not going to answer questions, he should at least not violate our rules in terms of unparlliamentary language. The minister made a reference that was not only un parliament ary but was total ly un called for.

I would like to ask you to call him to order, and I would like you to ask him to answer this very seriou s question, the qu est ions raised by our Health critic about the cutback of $3 million in terms of the home care attendants. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . On the point of order rai sed, I would like to remin d all honour able memhers that the word- and I am sure the word the honour ab le me mber is ref erring to is "dishon est. " It does show up under unparliament ary, and it does show up under parliamen tary, but I would ask the honourable minist er to pick your words very, very carefu lly. * * * Mr.

Speake r: The honourable Minister of Health, to finish with his response. Mr. Or1�hard: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will abide by your advice. My honourable friend the New Democrat does not acknowledge that in Estimat es, I provided him the information that, on average, last year, there would lbe 202,97 5 hours of home care attendant service provided to Manitobans, and this year, it will in crease to 225, 756. That is what New Democrats call a CIJtback. My honourable friend will not acknowledge that in terms of regist ered nursing service, last year on averagH per month, we provided 7,81 2 hours.

This year, we expect to provide 8,565, an in crease, not a decrease, over and above the incr eases of 15 .5 per cent las t year, 7.2 perce nt last year, 20. 7 percent in terms of LPN services last year over the year befor e-- increases, not decreases. Surely- Mr. Spoaker: Order, please. * (1 355) Gambling Social Costs Mr. Pa ul Edwa rds (Leader of the Sec ond Oppositio n): Mr. Speak er, today, the Mi nist er responsible for the Mani toba Lotte ries Foundation and the Mini st er of Health (Mr. Orchard) joint ly

Ju ne 29, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4913 released the long- awaited study, coincidentally written June 8, but released after the opening of their two bingo palaces in the city. That report concludes that, currently, 1. 3 percent of Manit obans over the age of 18 are pathological gamblers, not to consider the many thousands more who will become pathological gamblers as the gove rnment spends mi llions of dollar s promoting gambling. My question for the min ister of Lotteries, Mr.

Speaker, is: When are she and her government going to ans wer the tough question which is, why is the government spending millions and millions of dollars promoting gambling in our community when we know and we now have proof it creates and adds to pathological gambling in our society? Why is the government spending millions of dollars to create a problem and then to come up with some Band-Aid approach to deal with it? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act) : Mr.

Speaker, I think it is very important that we go back and look at the history of gambling in the province of Manitoba. I ind icated in the House just the other day that, yes, 60 percent of gambling opportuni ties in the province of Man itoba are controlled by the Manitoba Lotte ries Foundat ion, and 40 percent of the legal gambling that is done in the province of Manitoba is done through non profit, charitable groups and organizations throughout the width and breadth of our province.

Besides those gambling ini tia tives that are controlled by government, there is the racetrack which has legalized gambling, and there are forms of illegal gambling that are going on throughout the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, before government ever became involved, and as Dr. Rachel Volberg did indic ate this morning at the news confere nce-the expert who did this study-in the state of Texas, before there was any legalized gambling at all, there was a ver y high inci dence of compuls ive addictive beha viour.

So it is not only activities that are ongoing as a result of governme nt-contr olled and regula ted gambling that have caused a problem. There are people throughout the width and breadth of North America and indeed the world who do have compulsive behav iour. It is not only as a result of any activities or any inc rease in the amount of gaming that is done throughout North America. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the government is spending millions of dollars promoting gambling in slick ads to people around this province. That is the question that the minis ter should answer.

On what basis is she and her gover nment, on what authority have they any public consensus and supp ort for spending million s of dollars of the pu blic's money to sponsor and su pport and promote something which we know will add to the addiction to gam blin g for thousands of Manitobans? That is the tough que st ion. Let the ministe r answer that for the public of this pro vince. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, I do not accept the

preamble of the Leader of the Second Opposition. Mr.

Speak er, in deed, we have , in our announcement today, annou nced a treatment, a preventi on, an in tervention and an edu cation program that is going to deal with all of those who have any add ictive , compulsive behaviour in the province of Manitoba, whether they gamble at the racetrack, whether they gamble illegally in illegal forms of gaming, whether they partici pate in video lottery terminals, whether they travel south of the border to gamble, like many have in the past, and before there was any legal gambling in the province of Manitoba, we did have those with compulsive beha viour.

They tra velled outside of the province to partici pate in that activity. We do kno w tha t ther e is an in cidenc e of compulsive, addictive behaviour in Manitoba, and we are dealing with that by putting resources, treatment, education, prevention and intervention in place. • (14 00) Growth Rate Mr. Pa ul Edwards (Lead er of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this minis ter has come forward with a plan which will deal with a total number of 2,000 people over five years.

There are currently many thousands more than that who are currently pathological gamblers, and who can tell what they will be after five years of promotion of more gambling by this government? Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister: What is going to be the growth rate the gove rnmen t hopes for in the numb er of Man itobans who

4914 LEG ISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 gamble, who go to bin go palaces an d the Crystal Casin o an d gamble away? What is their hoped-for growth rate in the number of Manit obans who will at te nd th eir glit zy palaces an d respon d to the ir glitzy ads? Hon. B'onnle Mitchelso n (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Manitoba Lotteries Founds1tlon Act) : Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat what Dr.

Rachel Volberg did say today when she referred to the in stan ce in the state of Texas where, in fact, there was no legalized gambling an d there was a fairly high, sign ificant in ciden ce of compulsive, addictive behav iou r. Mr. Speaker, compulsive gambling is not unlike an y othEtr form of compulsive behaviour. We have people who drin k to excess an d who have a problem. We have peopl e in the provin ce of Manit oba who have eati ng disorders, whether they te nd to overeat or whether they have an orexia or bul imia. Those ar e compulsive, ad dic tive behaviours. Mr.

Speaker, we have accepted the respon sib ilit y in the Provi nce of Manitoba, an d I might add that we are only the secon d provin ce across the country to implement a program of treat men t an d prevention . I believe we are actin g extr emely responsibly in our approach, and what we want to do is deal with those people who do have a problem an d try to get to the bottom of the problem an d treat them in a very positive manne r. Personal Care Homes Means Test Ms. Ju cl y Wasyl ycla-Lels (St. John s) : Mr. Speaker, it is a sad day for seniors when it should have been a celebration.

They have been hit with drastic Home Care cuts, coupled with major hikes in personal care home fees, an d now wit h real conce rns ab out this government in va din g the ir privacy. Mr. Spe1aker, we have been tryin g to fin d out for some time from the Min ister of Healt h whe ther seniors will be forced to sub mit their in come tax forms and statemen ts of in come to nursin g home adminis trators so the government can determin e the fees based on in come. Ye st er day, the Min ister of Health fin ally an swe red an d st at ed that only the no tice of assessment would be required to be submi tted.

So our question today to the minister is if they can tell us the dif fere nce between a notice of assessment an d an in come tax return sin ce both, according to Rev1mue Can ada, are confidential documents, and how they can just ify havi ng confi dential in formation about a person's "1ncome revealed to nursi ng home administrators. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, even though my honourable frien d is no long13r the critic for Health, I want to correct my honourable frien d where she agai n used the typical NDP description of cutback in Home Care. Mr.

Speaker, as I have in dicated, we came in to office' in 1988. The budget was $34 million. It is now l�68 milliorr-$34 million more, not less; double the budget, not half the budget; an in crease, not a de cr,ease. I kn ow my hon our able frien d has diff iculty acknowledgin g that, but I would simply like to correct that in accurate

preamble. Mr. Sp eaker, my hon our able frie nd was concelrned about havin g to present one's in come tax form. That issue has be en resolved. The no tic1 3 of asse ssm en t will be the only piece of in fo rmation that we need for an in dividual to in dic ate that they do not have in come sufficient to just ify the $46 per diem in the personal care home an d that, in fact, they should remain at the current $26.95 or somewhere in between. Mr.

Speaker, we feel that is the most unobtrusive an d le•ss private request and piece of in formation we could come to, to assure ourselves that no one was goin g to be charged addition al per diems in personal care homes unless they had the abilit y to pay for those. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speake r, the minister did no t acknowledge the fac t that a no tice of asses� sment is a very detailed piece of in formation abou t per sonal in come, so our question an d concern s remain.

I would like to ask the Min ister of Health if he can tell this House an d sen iors today whether a nursin g home admi ni strat or has the legal aut hori ty to review a person's in come tax return and det ermin e what they should be paying. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, we would expect an y residE tnt or the ir fam ily to in di cate to the admin istr ator of the personal care home that their loved one in the personal care home did not have sufficient in come to pay the $46 per di em. That is a process that I do not belie ve is intrusive. It will be produced by the individual to show that

June 29, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4915 they should pay exactly as they pay now, $26.95, or the maximum if they have the ability to pay as demonstrated in last year's assessment of income tax form. Mr. Speaker, that is, in all likelihood, the least intrusive way to determine whether residents have an ability to pay incr eased charges, which are not dissimilar from Ontario and other provinces to the east. The rates are increasing in every province, including Mani toba, based on an ability to pay. Ms. Wasy lycla-Lels: Mr.

Speaker, that rhetoric and this convoluted, means-t ested formula give no assurances to seni ors who fe el their privacy is being in vaded. I would like to finally ask the Minis ter of Health if he will te ll the Hous e whether senior s will be re quir ed to, in fact, sign over to nur sin g home ad minis trators the authority to probe in to their financial and personal affai rs. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Sp eaker, I gues s I am somewha t troubled that my honour able frien d would be posing these qu es tions when, for ins tance , again, I will refer my honourable friends to page 4802 in Hansard where I spent time from 4802 to 4803 to 4804 explaining in detail all the parameters of the new policy. Were there any que stions on the detai l? Mr. Speaker, the answer is a given. There were none. The NDP did not ask a single question in terms of detail yesterday when they did not have television cameras there to try to create the alarmist fear they are doing here today.

I offered to my hono urable friends the New Democrats to spend all last evening going into details of this, but, no- Mr. Speake r: Order, please. Ph armacare Filing Deadline Mr. Conrad Santos (B roadway): Mr.

Speaker, the proposed objective of the Seniors Direc torate is to promote the in te rests of senio rs, to ens u re programs and policies are sensitive to the needs and concerns of senio rs and to implement new in itiatives to be nefit senior s in Man itoba, both objectives suppo sedly to be under take n by a Seniors Di rectorate consisting of three people who have to se rve 14 7,000 seniors in the province of Manitoba, consti tuting 13 percent of the population.

The theo logian Rei nhold Niebuhr said , the human capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but human inclination to inj ustice makes democracy necessary. Did this gove rnmen t sho w the necess ary inclina tion to jus tice or injustice when it started confiscating 1 00 percent of Pharmacare refunds regardless of the reason for delay? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I believe this particular issue was dealt with for the last year and a half.

Now, lest my honourable friend leave the impression that seniors were the ones who failed to meet the April 30 dea dline, let him not paint senior s in that circumstance. Sen iors were far and wi de the most regular claimants of the program adhering to the dea dline. The allegations my honourable friend makes, as critic for Seniors, does a disservice to the many sen iors who filed re gu larly and on time and received their Pharmacare refu nds. * (14 1 0) Personal Care Homes Fee In crease Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway) : Mr.

Speaker, does this progressive governm ent-[interjection] that is in quotation marks-promote jus tice or inj ustice by proposing to inc rease the fees to personal care homes from $26.50 to $46 per day, which is a 74 percent increase? Is that justice or injustice? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): You kno w , Mr. Speak er, at the risk of really compromising my future philosophical integrity, I will quote the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cer illi), who, in her maiden speech to this House, said, from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.

From each according to their ability is what this policy does bring in. It says, if you have the ability to pay, if you have the pension income, if you have the net income to su pport an additional charge in personal care homes, where all of the taxpayers of Manitoba, some of whom my honourable friends have advocated on behalf of as having no disposable income because of taxes and other programs of govern ment- when we are trying to protect those other individuals by asking Manitobans in personal care homes with ability to

4916 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 pay to pay slightly more, my honourable friend finds it objecltionable. Yet they do it in Ont ario and all other provinces in Canada, Sir. Mr. Sp eaker, to my honourable friend, I find this confounding in logic. Home Care Program Housekeeping Services Mr.

Conrad Sant os (Broadway): When this Tory governmen t slashes the Home Care Program by eliminating all services for housecleaning, laundry and me1a l prepara tion , is this gove rnment promoting jus tice or inju stice to the disab led citizens of this country who have served this country and built up its economy in the past? Hon. Dc>nald Orchard (Minister of Hea lth ) : Mr.

Spea ke•r , I mi ght pose that qu estion to my honourable friend, the member who just posed the question, because in 19 85, my honourable friend was part of the Howard Pawley government when they in troduced Support Services to Seniors and asked those seniors, whom he now is trying to defe nd, to pay for light housekeeping, to pay for meal pre1paration, to pay for laundry through the Support Services to Seniors Program. When my honourable friend sat in a government that made that policy decision, did he raise these questions?

Did he call Howard Pawley and the New Democrats he was in government with unjust people, or did he say, no, that is good progressive policy?--bec ause, Sir, I happen to have agreed with that policy. Taxpayers ought not to be asked to pay for houseket �ping, for meal preparation and laundry. They should, however, pay for more intensive care services, which we have through the increase of 22 percent in LPNs, 7 percent in nursing, and on and on. Home Care Program Alternative Services Ms. Avl!; Gray (Cr escentwoo d): Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister of Health loves to wax eloquen t about the Support Services to Seniors Program. He has done it for five years. He has done it in this House today. Now, he is cut ting homemaker se rvices for seniors, and he is suggesting that they now avail themsel ves of the Support Services to Seniors alternativ es for homemaking service s. Yet the other day in Estimates, when we asked him what services were avai lable, particularly in the city of Winnipeg, he was unable to provide that informat ion.

Ca.n the mini ster today table a list of the non profit services for seniors that are available within the city of Winnipeg? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, as my honourable friend well knows in terms of dea ling with this issue in the Estim ates-and I could go to the page and my honourable friend could read the answer that I gave to her in this House-l ind icated that there is a const ant referral to not-for-profit services where Support Services to Seniors exist. Now, in the policy this year, they will be referred to priva te providers of the service.

That answer was given to my honourable friend, and my honourable friend he rse1 lf even men ti oned some of those private providers as an example. Mr. Speaker, the range in cost is $6 to $9 per hour for housekeeping, the same as it is in terms of the Su pport Services to Senior s provided programs. It removes an in equ ity that exis ted whem some Manitobans were receiving free of char �1e those services and others, by policy estabilished by the NDP in 19 85, were paying for them. We removed that inequity.

I am sure my honourable friend would agree with the r1:�in vestment of those dollar s in to more intensive and complex care provision to maintain inde p·endent living for more Manitobans in th eir homes, Sir. Ms. G;ray: Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is, there is only one non profit service in the city of Winnipeg, and it services the north part of the city. When we contacted them this morni ng, they basically told us that should there be a number of individuals from the rest of the city phoning and asking for that type of service, they would not be able to cope with the increases.

Can the Min ister of Health tell us why he has chose11 to cut homemaking services for seniors in this city of Winnipeg before he has ensur ed that there are alternative services available? Why has he done that? Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, for the very sim ple reaso11 that for a numb er of years, residents, seniors, outside of Winnipeg where there is a great deal of sophistication under Support Services to

Ju ne 29, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MA NITOBA 4917 Seniors, have been paying for their housecle aning. Since 19 85 in my constituency, they have been paying for housecleaning. They have been paying for meals. They have been paying for laundry service. In some areas of the city of Winnipeg, that is not the case because there is not Support Services to Seniors. The program is open to all Winni peg volunteer groups that want to access that program. Mr.

Sp eaker, ther e is an array of servic e providers readily available, and as individuals are referred to them, they will be provided with a list of alterna te service provi ders, including Support Services to Seniors providers. Ms. Gr ay : Mr. Speaker, in contac ting the Department of Health today, in fact, there were no alternatives that were given to people who called, and there is no such list.

My question to the minister is: Is he prepared to put some accurate information on the record and te ll us why he has decided to cut homemaking services when his Support Services to Seniors Program has not had an increase in budget and, in fact, they have not ensu red that those alternative services are in place? Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Speaker, when my honou rable friend exhor ts me to put accurate information on the record, surely my honourable friend might comply as well.

If my honourable friend would review the answer in Hansard, she will find that with Support Services to Seni ors, there are something li ke 27 new organizations funded in this year's budget-new, new, in creased ser vices. Now, my honourable friend, of course, would never, never say there was an inc rease in the number of Support Services to Seniors Programs. Mr. Speaker, we made this decision precisely so that we can reinvest those dollars into providing more nursing care from regis tered nurses, Victorian Order of Nurse s, licensed practical nu rses and home care attendants to provide ever greater levels of- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Substance Abuse Treatment Programs Mr. George Hlckes (Poin t Dougla s) : Mr. Speaker, th is morning the go vernment acknowledged that there is a major problem in this province with pathological and problem gamblers, a problem that is growing due to the rapid expansion of gambling in this province by this gove rnment. Since the government now has agreed to put forward a very modest program to assist some 400 out of 20,000 problem gamblers, will the Premier (Mr. Filmon) no w also put in place gr eater assistance for solvent abusers? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister charged with the adminis trat ion of The Manit oba Lotte ries Foundation Act) : Mr. Speaker, I tend to disagree with the member opposite when he talks about a modest program put in place and the gove rnment just now rec ognizing or taking ownership over responsi bility, or this government taking ownership over responsibility for gambling.

When we look at the research in the study that was done, it says that the fa vou rite gaming activities in Manitoba are lottery and scratch tickets, and 28 percent of Manitobans find that to be their favourite gaming activ ity, gaming activity that was put in place under the New Democratic administra­ tion previous to this government. Mr. Speaker, we also do know that 9 percent of Manitobans consider - Mr. Speaker: Orde r, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposit ion House Leader) : On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne Cit ation 41 7 states very clearly that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. The member asked why this government will not introduce a program of treatm ent for solvent abuse. We would apprecia te an answer to that question. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, the honourable Madam Minister, I believe, has fini shed with her answer. • (1 420) Substance Abuse Northern Treatment Programs Mr. Geor ge Hlc kes (Poin t Douglas): Mr.

Speaker, it is a shame that the Premier does not find solvent abuse a serious enough problem to answer a serious question. Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Or der, please.

4918 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA Ju ne 29, 1993 Poin ts of Order Hon. G1B1ry Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I would apprecia te if the member opposite ' would be a little honest with the public and not sug<gest that t do not find solvent abuse an important issue. I do indeed. I do not find it an issue on which some body shoul d make cheap politics as th e member opposite is at tempting to do. Mr. Sp4�aker : Or der, please. The honou rable First Minister did not have a point of order there. It was a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Ashton: On an other point of order, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier in raising a so-called point of order, which you ruled not to be a point of order, also made allegations in terms of honesty. . O �ce again, the Premier should set an example In th rs House and withdraw that comment and answer the very important question put forward by the member for Point Douglas. Mr. Spetaker : Or der, please. The honour able opposition House leader did not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Spe1:tker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, with your question now, please. Mr. Hlck, es: Mr.

Speaker, Bill 29 will no doubt be passed in the near future because the government has a majority. What northerners want is a facility to treat the vict ims. Why does this Premier not acknowledge the fact that the fa cili ty will house aborig ina l and nonabori�Jinal abus ers in northern Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend does not always share full in formation. My honourable friend does not recognize that this Premier (Mr. Filmon}, this governmEmt, established su pportive funding for Lema y House at the St.

Norb er t adolescent trea tment centr e for adolescent women in the province of Manitoba. My honourable friend likes to make the case that we �o not care and we do nothi ng. The only time nothrng happened for sni ffers in Manitoba is when Howard Pawley was the Premier. That is the only time noth ing happened. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable frien d that Bill 29 could be law today if my honourable friend had passed it on to committee so this House could have dealt with it on Friday last and proclai med it as law, but he ducked his responsibility on that day and would not debate the bill. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas has time for one very short question. Mr. l-llckes: Mr. Speaker, two people have died in Nelson Hous e in the last two weeks. Since the Volbetrg report acknowledges the need for more su bs',tance abuse treatment profess ionals as a result of the growing gambling problems, I wonder if the Premier (Mr. Filmon) would be prepared to save tax dollars by increasing such preve ntative programs for solvent abusers, as well, in northern Manitoba. Mr. C>rchard: Mr. Speaker, we will un der take efforts within our jurisdiction to help wi th that probletm as we did at St.

Norbert Foundation, as we are att empting to do with legisla tion that will work, that will work to help stop abuse of solvents by all Manitobans, including northern Manitobans. We cannot do that if members in the opposition, particularly the questioner, refuse to speak to the bill, to pass it on to committ ee so it can become law and hE3Ip those very people whom he stands up for and tr i<es to defend. Get on with passing the bill is my ur1�ing to the NDP. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Committee Changes Mr. Ge orge Hlc kes (Po in t Dougla s) : Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wellin1�ton (Ms. Barret t) , that the com position of the St anding Commi ttee on Law Amendmen ts be amen ded as follows: Wellington (Ms. Barrett) for Int erla ke (Mr. Cli f Evan s) ; Swan Ri ver (Ms. Wowchuk) for El mwood (Mr. Maloway ), for Tuesday, June 29, at 7 p.m. I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) , that the compos ition of the Standin g Committee on Economic Development be amen ded as follows: Selkir k (Mr. Dewar ) for Burrows (Mr. Mart indale ); Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). Motions agreed to.

June 29, 1993 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANI TOBA 4919 Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallis te r), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: the memb er for La Verendry e (Mr. Sveinson) for the member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacqua y); the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) for the member for Arthur -Virden (Mr. Downey); the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallis ter) for the member for Assi niboia (Mrs. Mcintosh ); the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the member for Kirkfield Park (Mr.

Stefans on). I move, seconded by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Lau rendeau ) for the memb er for Tur tle Mountain (Mr. Rose) ; the member for Min nedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) for the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) . Mot ions agreed to. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Cla yt on Mann ess (Gov ernme nt House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I will be making announce­ ments a little later with respect to sitting hours and the workload plan for tomorrow.

I would annou nce at this time, though, that the Hous e will not sit on Friday, Jul y 2, and after tomorrow will reconvene on Monday, Jul y 5. Also, later on today I will be making an announcement with respect to st anding committees. Mr. Speaker, would you call Bills 29, 30 and 32 in that order. Mr. Speake r: As the honou rable gove rnment House leader has ind icated, the House will not be sitting on July 2. Our rules state very clearly that we have sitting hour s on a Frid ay . Is there unanimous consent of the House that we do not sit on July 2? [agreed] We will sit agai n, Monday, July 5.

I would like to thank the honourable government House leader for that information. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 29- The Minors Intoxicating Substan ces Control Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minis ter of Justice (Mr. McCrae) , Bill 29, The Mino rs Int oxicating Substances Control Act;

Loi sur le controle des substances intoxicantes et les mi neurs, sta nding in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas, who has 24 minutes remaining. Mr. George Hlc kes (Po int Dou g la s) : Mr. Speaker, I am glad to be able to conti nue speaking on Bill 29 because it has been sitting since the last day that we were dealing with bills. I find it incredible how the Mi nister of Health (Mr. Orchard) responds to Bill 29, as if that will answer all the problems that we have pert aining to solvent abuse in no rthern Mani toba.

What the communities and what the individuals in northern Manitoba are saying is that without a treatment facil ity we will not be able to treat the young aboriginal people who have fallen into the abuse of solvents and are ruining their young lives and ruining their potential careers. Bill 29 will not be the only answer for the people of northern Manitoba. What the northern people are saying is that we need a treatment centre built in northern Manitoba to treat all abusers in northern Manitoba.

What the government is sa ying, it is a federal responsi bility, and so the message I get from the government and other people from the North is that only people in northern Man itoba who have a problem with solvent abuse are treaty individuals. That is a mistake, and that is wrong. It is not only treaty people who are abusing solvents. You can look right across northern Manitoba, and you will see that it is a lot of individuals who are nontreaty and who are not even aboriginal who have the same problems.

So, when you talk about building a treatment centre in northern Manitoba, you are looking at a facil ity to look at tre ating all northerners. Yes, this government does have a responsibility to represent all Manitobans, and that is where I find it very ironic when I hear the government stating it is a federal responsibility, it is under the jurisdiction of the federal gove rnment, we do not have a responsibility. I think that is totally wrong. If it is going to be built on a reserve or in a community, that should not make a differ ence.

This go vernment cou ld lead th e way by organi zin g a me eti ng with the federal representa tives and with northern leaders and in co-operation with all par ties and individuals,

4920 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 leaders from the North, to try and come up with a solution that is workable to meet the serious problem we have before we lose more young valuable lives in northern Manitoba. That is what the people in northern Manitoba have been sta ting. It is not a problem only pertai ning to treaty people. It is pertaining to all northern Mani tobans. It is a problem pertai ning to all Manitobans. We have two facilities here in Manitoba: one is at the St. Norber t Founda tion; the other is Sagkeeng Centre.

They are both in southern Manitoba, and there is nothing in northern Manitoba. There is such a huge, long waiting list. Mr. Speaker, when we had an information session that was put on here at the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba, in this building, in Room 254, and the chiefs were there and other in terested people from all across Manitoba were there, and the panell gave such a beautiful prese ntat ion. They showed a video tape of this young adult from Oxford House who had a very serious solvent abuse problem.

It showed, with proper treatm ent and proper su pports, the recovery; this individual was able to over come. It was just like night and day. This individual who started off in the video tape had poor motor skills, poor functi oning ; could not even take his finger and touch his own nose. The doctor asked him to touch his index finger with the doctor's, and he could not even accomplish that. It was waving all over the place. After trea tm ent, through treatm ent prog rams, this individual was able to regain a lot of his motor skills.

That is the kind of program that our leaders and the peopl•e in Manitoba are talking about. The sad ending to that story was that the individual, after coming d()wn south, and going back into the home communi ty wit hout su pport syst ems, without adequate workers in northern Manitoba, fell back into the trap of solvent abu se. Sad to say, Mr. Speaker, this individual is no longer with us today. We just heard within the last couple of weeks that another }'Oung in dividua l in Nelson House, 15 years old, has lost his life over solvent abuse.

Just prior to that, a 17 -year-old from Nelson House lost his life ov•�r solvent abuse. When are we going to be responsible represe ntatives of Manitoba and do something1? The leadership is crying out for help, crying out for co-opera tion. * {1 430) W13 wer e in Esti mates of Native Affairs Secmtariat last night, and I asked the mini ster to plea: se ta ke a lead role, organize meetings. Nobody has to take any credit for accomplishing some·thing. It should be a co-operative effort by all conc·er ned citizens of Man itoba, by all parties.

Whatever we can do to help, we should be willing to work with the leadership in a co-operative manner to try and overcome the serious problem we have. Bill 29 is trying to address that, but Bill 29 has some flaws in it. We have been seeking advice from t3xperts. I have met with people who are very involved in working with solvent abuse and ver y conce1rned about the problems, and one glaring error in this, and I just very briefly touched on it prior to today, was the whole idea of looking at incarcer ating our youth in the youth centre.

I read a letter from the Justice department that said tl1e reason to do that is because through the interrogations of the police officers they will be able to find out where the abusers got their solvents from. Mr. Speaker, we all know what that would accomplish. If the individuals told the authority whe re· the y got their solvents and the supplie rs found out who these individuals who were telling on them were, all we have to do is look at all of our youth, when we were all going to school. You are always very wary of the schoolyard bully. How do schoolyard bullies operate? They operate on fear. You know, Mr.

Speaker, that if you ever told the teacher on the schoolyard bully, what happe ned to you if that bully ever caught you walking down the street on your own . We are putti n�l these children in jeopardy by saying, well, it is going to help us solve the problem because they will tell us who their suppliers are and in turn we can charge· the suppliers. How are they going to prove unless the child tells who their suppliers are? Two things : Chil dren without proper treatment who still are addicted to solvent abuse will not give up their source of solvents because they want it for their own further use.

The other thing is we put them in jeopardy of being abused and threat ened. You know, we have to be very, very careful here because the suppliers are not our most honest citizens in Manitoba. Some of them are the most ruthless individuals in Manitoba. They will resort to anything to protect their source of income and to protect themselves. So are we doing justice to these chi ldren by putting them in that kind of a situation where you tell where you got your solvent

June 29, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4921 from and in turn we will use that evidence to charge Joe Blow? Well, Joe Blow will be after those kids in no time flat. I think that is very, very unfair to put these children -because we are talking children from 12 to 18 years old. An Honourable Member: Just let them keep on sniffing? Mr. Hlc kes: No, you do not let them keep on sni ffi ng. You develop treatment centres and the proper support syste ms to help them. What you do is you try to enforce easier possibility of laying charges to the sellers of solvent abuse.

What you want to do is you want to try and get after the suppliers of solvent abuse and hit them hard and make them learn that selling solvent abuse not only to minors but to anyone is not right, and that you will be dealt in a harsh, harsh manner. That is the way to look at it, and then look at trying to have proper support syste ms in place to help our abusers to overcome that problem. It is a dollar that would be well spent. Mr.

Speaker, when we talk about Bill 29, any bill if it is open to proper su ppor t and proper co-operation from all parties and outside expertise, an d wi th the wil lingness to amend the good recommendations that should be coming forward from all parties, from intere sted individuals and the front-line people who de al with this on a daily basis, if the gov ernment is open to positive amendment and changes, maybe we will have something that is workable and that we could finally start doi ng something for the solvent abusers.

Sloughing off the responsibility or saying you are playing politics with this-1 do not think any in dividual in thi s Chamb er should ever try to play politics with a human life. This is an abusive problem that is killing our youth. It is not the time to play politics with something that serious. Mr. Speaker, the other thing tha t we have to look at is that, when we have the open window and the opportunity to look at addressing the seriousness of solvent abuse that we have in Manitoba, we also have to look at not only the rest rictions . The problem of solvent abuse ends when you are 18 years old? It does not.

When you are 12 to 18 , you might be abusing solvents, but when you are 18 , if you have not done anything with that problem, you will continue to have tha t solvent abuse problem. We need to expand this bill to help treat solvent abusers of all ages. Mr. Speake r, this bill is only re ferring to individuals from 12 to 18 . We need to look at the problem of adults, too, because I know individuals, have talked to individuals personally who had been abusing and are still abus ing. Some are 24, 25 years old and in such sad state .

It kills the brain, the brain cells, and they have a hard time; and, when they try to walk they cannot even walk right. I do not know, it is a very, very serious problem, and it is a very emotional problem because it does so much damage to a lot of the people that we see. One of the sad situations that we see in northern Manitoba, or I have see n- and when I go up, I do see-is the whole problem we have of gas sniffing. I know you cannot lock up and store gasol ine where no one can reach it.

In northern Manitoba you depend on ga soline, because in the summertime you need your boats and motors, and in the wi nterti me you need your ski-doos. I think that, thr ough proper education and proper treatment available and proper supports when an individual comes back, that will go a long way. By younger children seeing in dividuals that have overcome and turned their lives around, and we see positive role models that way, then I think it would sen d a strong message to our youth in northern Man itoba and help them overcome. Mr.

Speaker, one of the most positive things that this government has done pertaining to solvent abuse in northern Manitoba has been the action that this government has taken towards training and employing northern recreation workers for our youth. Also, the money that they gave to support our northern fly-in camps, sports camps. You know, and I fully know, tha t when you have recreational opportunities and things that are fun, and things for the children to do, idle minds will not be trying to discover ways of, you know, their own form of en tert ai nme nt. Those ar e positive measures.

Those are the kinds of action that I strongly encourage, and I hope the government will continue to bring forward. I am not here to debate and say that Bill 29 is totally wrong, and we have to oppose it because it is a government idea. Mr. Speaker, I really do not care whose idea it is. Let us make it workable for the chi ldren and the adults that have this very serious problem, and help them overcome this. When a person has an addiction to whatever it is, and when you are able to overcome it and straighten out your life, and then be in a position to

4922 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 give some of it back, it means so much to a lot of people. • (1 44 0) Mr. Speaker, I hope the government is open to listen to the public, listen to the people, and work co-operati vely. A good example was the Min ister of Consumer and Corp orate Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) and the way she handled the cooking wine problem that we had in the city of Winnip eg. Now, she consu lte1d with the suppliers; she consulted with the front -lin e worke rs ; she consul ted with a lot of individuals that had a lot of experience in that area.

She took their recommendations seriously, made the appropriate changes. You know, you hardly ever hear of anyone abusing cooking wine today. In Poin t Douglas ther e used to be a serious problem; I have not seen any bottles of cooking wine in any of the parks or on the street. That was done in a very, very profess ional, caring manner. I think that is what it takes to address this bill and to be open, to listen to the people that are out there. Take thE�ir recommendations and work with the people to overcome this. Mr.

Speak er, I thank you for giving me the opportun ity to sp eak on this, and I hope that positive thing s can come about for the positive development and positive actions for the people that have this very, very serious problem, and that someday we will help these individuals overcome their problems and conti nue on with a rewarding life that eveq10ne deserves and everyone should have the opportunity to look forward to. Thank you. Mrs. Shar on Car stalrs (River Heigh ts) : Mr.

Speaker, I rise to speak on Bill 29 with some positive and some negative fee lin gs about this particular piece of legislation-positive because the nature of the bill is one that we have been looking forward to for a long tim e. When this government was in a minority position, all three parties agreed that there should indeed be a piece of legislation known as an antisniff bill. It was introduced by the member for St . Johns (Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis), when she was an opposition critic for the NE�W Democratic Party at that particular point in time, and I think all of us felt that it would go a long way to meeting the need s and the expectations of those who work within the field. The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) argued for a period of 1two years that, although the legi slation had been passed unanimously in the House, his sta f'f was in form ing him that the bill was not en forc eable.

So we waited throu gh 19 90 and through 19 91 and into 19 92 for a presentation of a new bill which would be enforcea ble and which wou ld have an effect in contr olling access to products, such as sniff, which devastates not only northern communities in the province of Manit oba, child ren in particular, but also many children, aborigin al and nonabor iginal, living within the city of Winnipeg. So we waited for the bi ll.

When the piece of legislation arrived. one of the fir st comments was made by a representative of the City of Winnipeg Police Department, who informed us that this bill, too, was unen forceable and that it would not, in fact, prevent the abuse of purchase of product that the whole in tention of the origi nal bill was s:upposed to do. Mr. Speaker, it went further than that, and this is the traged y, I think, of this particular pi ece of legislation. In the original piece of legislation, the onus was on the seller of the product.

He or she had to prove, or at least have reasonable means, by which this product would not be used for sniffing purposes. Now the onus is on the purchaser to affirm to the seller that he or she is not going to use this product for sniffing purposes. Now that is a rather fundamen tal shift in the manner in which this legislation is being introduced. Let me give you an example. A 13 - year-old boy walks in, and he buys 16 tubes of airplane glue. He says to the shop owner, well, I am not just buying this for myself.

I am in a Cub pack, and there are 16 of us all building model airplanes, so I need 16 tubes of this glue in order to have one for each one of my fellow cubs. The owner of the store says, oh, we ll, that is reasonable. Obvi ously, any young man Gould be a memb er of a Cub Scout organi: z:ation. I will sell him 16 tubes of airplane glue. But let us be realistic, Mr. Speaker, if in deed the young man were buying 16 tubes of airplane glue, then hE! was probably a very generous young man.

In all likelihood, there was only one purpose for him buying 16 tubes, and that was to go behind the store and to begin sniffing along with his fellow friends. That is the tragedy. If that owner of that store was hauled into court, all he has to prove under the present legi slation is that it was reasonable for him to presume that this

June 29, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4923 glue was going to be used for a project other than sniffing. I think that burden of proof is a ludicrous one. When we visit inner city stores, and I have certainly done that, and you see shelves of Lysol, you know for a fact that people who are purchasing that Lysol are not purcha sing it in order to have spi ck­ and-span , disi nfected homes.

It cer tainly is a presumption, but the reality is that, if you go into a ?-Eleven in my district, you might see five or six cans of Lysol disinf ectant on a shelf, but when you go into an inner city store and you see 36 tins on a shelf or even more, then you can also make a pres umption as well. The pres umption is that perhaps either they are extraor dinarily clean in the inn er city, far cleaner than they are in my constituency of River Heights, or perhaps there is an alternate purpose for the use of Lysol. I would suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, that in many of those communities they are selling Lysol for an alternate purpose other than as a disi nfectant. They are selling it beca use , for some strange reason, it creates a high. I would not know, I have to tell you, I have not tried, but the reality is that that is what I am told by the experts it does. Again, you have a strange presum ption here. When an individual goes in and buys one can of Lysol, perhaps the argument can be made that they are , in fact, usin g it for disi nfectant purposes­ sounds reasonable.

Now, if they are buying a can every single day, seven days a week, 30 days a month, then perh aps you could have ano ther motivation. But, when they go in and buy two or three or four or five cans of Lysol, then unless they are running a boarding home, unless they are in business for dis infecting other people's homes, the chances are they cannot go through that much disi nfectant in spray form unless they are using it for a purpose other than what the product was entitled to be. So it is the burden of proof that has changed dramatically in this piece of legisl ation from the original piece of legislation.

The difficulty that I think is confronting all of us in this House is: do we pass this piece of legislation because it is better than having no legislation at all, or do we reject this piece of legisl at ion because it is woefully inadequate? I think there is only one thing for us to do at this

part icular point in time, and that is, to pass this piece of legislation into comm ittee to hear from ex perts with regar d to su bstance abuse, to introduce amendmen ts which I intend to do when we get to the committee stage on this particular piece of legislation in order to change the burden of proof back onto the seller and away from the purchaser. Mr. Speaker, that is what I think we have to do at this stage in the legislative session. So I will be the only speaker fr om the Liber al Pa rty on this

part icular piece of leg is lat ion, and we will be prepared to send it on to committee as soon as the other opposition party is prepared to do so. But I want to just make a few remarks about something else ; th at is, what this legi slation appears to do is to victimize the victim. You are now putting the burden of proof on the purchaser who, coincidentally, also happens to be the victim. That person, for reasons unknown to most of us sitting in this room, has a view of life which is that they require a high, a high which is provided by a substance such as Lysol or airplane glue.

They do not get their highs, as many of us do, by working in a Chamber like this or by having a fulfilling life or by having warm and positive relationships. They have tended to opt out of that kind of exis tence , and they live in another world, a world in which they surround themselves with intoxicating sub stances.

There is only one hope for those individuals, and that is that they will get treatment for their abuse, not that they will be penalized for abusing, but they will be provided with a treatm ent program that will enable them to no longer be dependent upon such abuse. • (1 450) That is not what this legisla tion does . This legi sla tion penalizes them for their use of intoxicating substances, but it does not provide any wherewithal for them to obtain the trea tment so necessary for them to find. We have had three young people who have died of substance abuse in the last three months, all in northern Manitoba.

We have 22 beds only for substance abuse in the city of Wi nn ipeg. We have no beds for subs tance abuse outside of the city of Winnipeg. The problem would appear numerically to be much larger in the North in terms of raw percentage scores than it is in the city of Winnipeg, but ther e is not a singl e treatment bed in northern Manitoba.

4924 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 We have a situation in which we know that the primar y respons ibili ty, because many of these young people are living on reserve communities, is with the federal government, but what we have not seen from the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) or from the' Mini ster of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) is the kind of positive promotion of this centre which is so desperately required. Mani toba seems to have a very laissez- faire attitude with respect to the federal government.

They seem to believe-and it does not matter what the gove rnm ent stripe , because it cer t ainly happent�d under the NDP and the CF -18 . They have this attitude that if you do things correctly, then the federal government, in turn, will do things correctly. But the reality is, it does not work that way. The reality is that there are those who are negotiating hard in Otta wa. While Howard Pawley was sitting here saying, we have the best offer, so of course we will get the CF -1 8 contract, Robert Bourassa and his em issaries were going back and forth to Ottawa putting pressure on the federal gove rnment.

Ultima tely, they got the contract. When the federal government decided to establish an aboriginal treatm ent centre for female inma tes and the choic e was betwe en Sask atchewan and Man itoba and Alb erta, Manit oba was laid back, Saskatchewan was overtly aggressive, and they got the centre. Wel l, now we have a sit uation in which the federal government is examining the poss ibility of trea tment beds in one of the three nor ther n provinces. It is unlikely they will build them in all three, and what we need is some aggression on the part of th<e Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) to put the case bef ore the federal gov ernmen t that that treatment centre should be located in Manitoba, that we have lost the opportunity for other treatment centres, lfor other rehabilitation centres, for other inmate in stitutions, and this time it is our turn. We should have the sta ti stical data toget her.

We sh ould have the evidence to present , an d we should bH fighting hard to make sure that those beds are located in northern Manitoba, and that I do not see is very much a part of the agenda of either the Mini ster of Health or the Min ister of Northern Affa irs. So I look forward to this bill going to committee. I look forwatrd to those who work with street kids and those worlking on northern and remote communit ies to make presentations to us.

I look forward to amendmen ts which will move the onus and the burden of proof away from the purchaser and on the s.e ller, who is the one who is making money on the backs of thes e people who have become, un for tuna tely, driven by their in toxication to a su bstance such as sniff, and I look forward to a bette·r bill passing out of that committee and back into this Chamber. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Mr. Jlerry Storie (FIIn Flon) : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to put a few words on the record with respec t to Bill 29, partly because this bill has a long his tory in this Chamber. My colleague the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) iden tified in her remarks that this legis lation was previously and once upon a time agreetd upon by all members in this Chamber to my kno wledge.

Ce rtai nly all politi cal parties represe nted in the Legislature agreed when we, in a minority government situation from 19 88 to 19 90, passt�d Bill 91 , which was also a bill that was designed to use the force of law to protect minors and subs tance abusers from obtai ning su bstances which could be sn iffed or ingested in one way or another to the detriment of those individuals. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Mr.

Acti ng Sp eaker, I have said on other occasions, that it concerns me a great deal, having spent so much time collectively in passing Bill 91 , that we would then turn around and delay and delay the putting into force of that legislation when we realized, all of us, what a cost there has been for many, many young people, many families and many communities in the intervening months and now years. I said I had two reasons for joining the debate .

One is the fact that this bill does have a history, that we hatve now been deb ati ng this ques tion for appro)(imately five years, but I rise to speak on this bill as well, because this issue, su bstance abuse, is one of great concern to many of the communit ies in my cons titue ncy. Mr. Acting Speaker, su bstance abuse is not a matter which is the preserve of the in ner city of Winnipeg. The fact of the matter is that sub stance abuse and sniffing, whether it is gas oline or glue or dozens of other substances, occurs with alarming regularity in communities across this province.

The sad truth is that the farther north you go, the more

June 29, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4925 serious and the more pervasive are the instances of substance abuse. Mr. Acting Speaker, that st ems in part from the high unemployment, from the lack of recreational opportunity, from the lack of in formation, from the isolation of services to support individuals who need that su pport.

We have ar gue d with the gove rnment on many occasions that many of the things that they are doing, the cutbacks to our Fr iendship Cent res in nor thern Mani toba, the cu tbacks in resources to Nor thern Affa irs communiti es, the cutback s in resources to and cut back s of service in many, many northern communities, the withdrawal of social service and Fam ily Services officers simply in creases the degree of alarm and concern that I have as an individual MLA about su bstance abuse. Mr. Acting Speaker, I know that my colleague the member for St. Johns (Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis) and others have talked about the long de bate and the long set of discussions that led to the passage of Bill 91 . We ar e convi nced that this piece of legi slation may not in fact work as well as the compromise that was reached in 19 91 . The fact of the matter is that ther e is going to be no piece of legislation dealing with this kind of issue which is easy to enforce. I know that was one of the major concerns that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) expressed on each occasion when this matter was raised in the Legisla ture.

The Mini ste r of Health kept expressing concerns over the enforceability of the act and kept atte mpting to sugge st tha t the government was not moving because of a difficulty that was apparent, perhaps only to the Minister of Health, with respect to the implementati on. Mr. Acting Speaker, there can be no doubt that we all agreed at that time that something had to be done. In fact, the current Minis ter of Justice (Mr. McCrae) was quoted back in 19 90 as saying, we have to have legisla tion like this.

In a matter like this, there is all kinds of room for agreement amongs t right-th ink ing and caring Manitobans, which I trust that all members of this House are. That was the Min ister of Jus tice back in March of 19 90. An Honourable Member: The same Min is ter of Jus tice? * (1 500) Mr. Stori e: The same, the current, the former and the present Mi nister of Jus tice . The fact of the matter is that we all agreed. I think most Manitobans would have a great deal of difficulty analyzing this particular legislation. What caused the delay?

One of the concerns that had been raised, of course, is the concern that is more obvious in this legisla tion of making victims of vict ims. This is a serious problem. There is no simple, single reason why teenagers and others abuse subs tance s. There is no single reason why this playing really on our young people has been increasing. There are all kinds of explanati ons . We could talk about the economic circumstances of most of the victims of subs tance abuse. The fact of the matter is that they tend to be younger. They tend to be unemployed. They tend to lack the skills that would make them employable.

They tend to have little or li mited educa tion , and those in themselves are serious problems that we hope the government will address at s ome point. Mr. Acting Speaker, we recognize that, apart from the socioeconomic reasons for people moving to subs tance abuse , ste mming that tide is equally diffic ult. We believe, of course, tha t if the gov ernment was serious it would beg in by enhancing the educational opportunities and the employment opportu nities for people who are subject to subs tance abuse.

We certainly believe that the government, as was requested by one of my colleagues today, should begin to establish a su bstance abuse treatmen t centre, certai nly in northern Manitoba where I ind icated earlier the problem is particularly severe, where the options in terms of trea tment are particularly limited. So we beli eve there are things tha t the governmen t can do, apart from this legislation, which the government currently is not doing and which the government should do. Mr. Acting Speaker, Bill 29 is limited in terms of, I guess, placing the blame.

What Bill 91 atte mpted to do was place the onus on the supplier of these substances. As my colleague from Point Douglas (Mr. Hi ckes) indic ated , although it is cer ta inl y possible that suppliers, the corner store merchants in the inner city and remote communities, the small businesses in our province that supply these kinds of products, whether it is shoe polish or nail polish or an ything else, they clearly cannot in every

4926 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 in stance • guar antee how a particular product is going to be used or abused. I think that there is a clear and present signal for any ret ailer, any supplier providing these kinds of products which should require them to behave respon sibly. The princip�e of Bill 91 was that no one should be selling these products unless they were certain that this product was going to be used responsibly. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I do not believe that most people would think that an individual atte nding at a small corne r store, a small, what we ca ll, mom-and-pop grocery store, would believe that buying c:t half a dozen cans of Lysol at eleven o'clock at night was normal, nor would selling a tube of glue to a young person who was obviously already in toxicated, who was obviously already in a state of neglect.

I guess the fear is and the fear was that some how inn ocen t peop le, in nocent suppliers would be wrongly accused because of this leg islati on, because the onus was on the supplier to ensure that the sale was legitimate. Mr. Acting Speake r, the previous bill would have required that many of these products be taken from the shelf and only disp ense d in a thoughtful way by the individual retailer.

Again, not wanting to limit the right of trade, not wanting to limit the retailer's ri ght to s. ell legal product s to consumers, but wanting to make certa in, as we do. for example, with some pornographic mater ial , that it is not readily available, easily ava ilable to parts of our population, particularly our young people. Those are what are called reasonable limits. Mr. Acting Speaker, I someti mes think that we as legis lators fear to impose reasonable limits. We are sometimes overly concerned about the Charter of Righ ts and the Ch arter implications in the legislation we pass.

If I was 9oing to give credit in this Legislature to something that we collectively have done, it would be for example Bill 3, that was passed a number of years ago dealing with drinking and driving. There were some!, some in this Chamber, who said that the implic ations of Bill 3 wer e rather seve re , drinking c:tnd driving legis lation would be an imposition on individual rights and freed om. Mr. Ac ting Speaker, that is part of the respon sibility, the collective responsi bilit y of this Legislature.

For a hundred and how many years is it? -126 years, gove rnmen t after gove rnment, ad minis tration after admin istra tion, regardless of political stri pe, have imp osed limitations on individual and collective rights in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Acting Speaker, I do not think we should fear the Ch arter of Ri ght s .

I am one person who believes that the provisions within the Charter that grant legisl ators and parliamentarians the right to impos:e what are called reasonable limits should be taken up more oft en, that we should not be afraid tha t a challe nge will rule someth ing is unconstitutional because it violates the Charter of Rights. We should do what we believe is right. We should do what we believe is fair as legisl ators. Mr. Acting Speaker, I go back to Bill 91 , when one ol' the concerns was the onus that was being placed on the retailers of these products.

I do not think that that was an unreasonable limitation. The limitation did not prohibit the sale of legal products , but simply said there was an obligation, a social, a communal obligation to ensure that product was not bemg sold in a way which was likely to damage individuals and families in terms of their health and their long-term abil ity to contribute to our communities. The fact of the matter is that this new legis lation was certainly as strong in terms of its implication, in terms of its ability to protect solvent abusers, it was cert ainly as strong as Bill 29.

We certai nly belie ve that the new legis lation is better than not hing. It certai nly is going to be an improvement over the rather weak and limited controls that currently can be placed on retailers. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) •

(1510) But, Mr. Speake r, it is not strong enough . It emphasizes too much the onus being on the in di vidual who is purchasing these products. I recognize that most members will know that when these

part icu lar products are purchased, quit e often, the individuals involved are already under the influence of intoxicating sub stances, that they are already of a mind-set to continue to abuse these produc ts, that they al ready have , in many circumstances, in many instances, been long-term abusers themselves, and may no longer either realize the consequences of what they are doing, or frankly, if they do realize the consequences, they may not care. Mr. Speaker, that is another point that I want to sp end some time di scus sing. I want to tell the

June 29, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4927 people in this Chamber about the degree of despair that exists, parti cularly in some of our northern communities, where, as I mentioned earlier, there is such signi ficant unemp loymen t, such lack of opportunity, and at every turn further opportunities and further training and educational opportunities are being withdrawn by the government. Mr. Speaker, this bill, Bill 91- and Bill 29-- really atte mpts to deal with the symptoms of a social problem.

The symptom is the willin gness, the desir e on the par t of individuals to abus e su bstances that are known to be harmful. That has always been a fea ture, I suppose , of societies, whether it is the abuse of alcohol or abuse of other legal sub stances, but the fact of the matter is the abuse of these substances is end emi c in some communities. Mr. Speaker, why ar e they using these subs tances?

We ll, they are using thes e substances, No. 1, because they are available, and this bill and the previous bill atte mpted to limit availability, but they are using these substances because of the despair they feel in the ir own personal lives and in their communities. Mr. Speaker, I do not know how many people in this Chamber have had an opportunity to visit the community of Shamattawa. I do not know how many of the people in this Chamber have had the chance to visit a number of other small, small, remote communities. I will give you an example of what is happening right now.

Because of changes to the post-secondary education su pport guidelines of the federal gove rnment, the E-1 2 guidelines, Status India ns, Indians from First Nations across this province, who at one time saw some light at the end of the tunn el, knowing that if they worked hard in school and if they graduated, would be going on to post-secondary edu cation, have now been put on -we ll, act ually, were put on waiting li sts approximately three years ago.

What happens is someone from East erville or someone from Pukatawagan or som eone from Garden Hill who has struggled with their parents and their communi ty to come to the point of graduation now is told that there is no opportunity for unive rsity this year. That is what happened in 19 90 . They said, well, we are going to start creating these waiting li sts .

So students who gradu ated were to ld, just put your life on hold, remain in the community where there are dozens of other young people who have already given up on life, who are already in to substance abuse, who are already in trouble with the law, and they said, no, you stude nts remain in the community. Mr. Speaker, that became two years and then three years and then four years. Mr.

Speaker, I do not think there is anyone in this Chamber who bel ieves that someo ne who has gradua ted from high school is going to have the will, let alone the acade mic skills, after four years of unemployment and despair, living in a community where there is little hope for employment, where there is little to do that is constructive. So, Mr.

Speake r, the problems these young people face in their own communities have been exac erbated by acti ons of the gove rnmen t in Ottawa, the Conserva tive government there, and because of actions of the gov ernment here, as well, because the same cycle of despondency and despai r, the same cycle of dela y in terms of av ailable opportun ities goes on in non-S tatus communi ties like Sherridon and Wabowden and Brochet and South Indian Lake.

The number of spaces that are available in our ACC ESS programs and BUNTE P programs, the student bursaries, the Student Social Allowances Program that have been elimina ted have sim ply meant that these people, the young people in those communities, even those who have struggled to achieve acade mi cally, who have aspi red to post-secondary education, who have aspi red to training beyond what was available even to their parents or to their brothers and sisters in many cases, are going to be left wanting.

They are going to start to be infes ted with the despondency, the despair, the depression, which has inf es ted , Mr. Sp eak er, many nor thern communities. It is not just northern communities. I think that many rural communities generally have the same sense of despondency when it comes to opportunities for their young people. So, Mr. Speaker, we need a broader approach. Yes, Bill 29 may be better than not hing. I do not believe that it is as good as the compromise we worked out in 19 90.

I do not think it is as good as Bill 91 , but it has some merit at least, and we on this side are going to be listening in committee, listening to the Mini ster of Jus tice's (Mr. McCr ae) explanation for some of the changes and for the

4928 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 approach that this bill takes before finally deciding whether this bill is ulti mately supportable. I want to emphasize that this is not the answer to the problem. This deals with the symptoms that young people from across the province are displ ating because of the economic circu m­ stances, the lack of educational opportunities, the concern that they have about their futures.

The end result is that they often follow their peers who have alre·ady given up on life, and turn to su bstance abuse and turn to a lifestyle which is ultima tely destructive to th em, ultimately destructive to their communities, and ultima te ly destructive to our society. Mr. Speaker, those are my remarks.

I want to end by urging the government not only to proceed , as I belie tve they intend to do with Bill 29, but to proceed on that other agenda which, in my opinion, will reduce the need for this kind of legislation and ultimately be more beneficial than trying to solve the probletm that we are creating as we go. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I want to put some comments on the record on this bill, and I want to ind icate I hope the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) will listen to my comments.

After some of the regrettable sta tements the Minister of Health put on the record earlier today about the disposition of this bi ll, I think it would be only fittin�1 if the Min ister of Health would listen to comments made by members of the Legislature; in fact , if the Minis ter of Health would fo llow the debate, because I, quite frankly, found that the minister obviously is not aware of the degree to which this issue has been an ongoing issue in this House , going back over the last three years.

In fa ct, this bill fol lows a bill that wa s passed unanimously three years ago by all members of this Hous e , and , qu ite fr ankly, I think, showed a regrettabl1 9 delay in dealing with a very serious problem. I do not want to deal with the technicalities of the bill. I want to see this bi ll go into committee. I think there are some problems with the bill. I feel that the gove rnment has chosen the easy route in this case, criminalizing those who are substance abusers.

I believe that treatment and prevention are far more effective, a.nd dealing with the source of supply, as did the original bill three years ago, is far more effective. But I am prepared to see this go to committee and hear members of the public, social agencies, the many people who are concerned about this problem, and have it dealt with there, Mr. Spealker. I will be in te res ted to see the comments , because I think many people share the comments made' by the member for Point Doug las (Mr. Hick ,�

s) ear lier when he poi nted out the inconsistency of a gove rnment that now brings in a treatm ent program for problem gambling that is bein� J contribute d to by the actions of this gov ernment itself, and brings in a treat ment program that is using reve nues developed out of the gambling itself, when the same gove rnment has consistently refused to look at the very serious proposal by the MKO for a treatment facility in nor th,� rn Manit oba for all nor therners, for all Manitobans, regardless of whether they are treaty, aboriginal people with treaty-Stat us, or whether they are non-Status, or whether they are Metis or nonabori ginal.

That, I think, is a very realistic and very important stat ement that has been made by the MKO, and I comm1md them. They have been working on this for th1 � last five or six years. They have not receiv,�d a commitment from the federal govern­ ment. They have not received a commitment from the pmvincial gover nment. I certainly feel the federal government should be involve1d, but when we are talking about human lives to the degree to which we are, I bel ieve jurisdiction is not as important as action.

I want to stress that because in the last two months there have been four deaths from solvent abuse in my own consti tuency: two adults in Thompson, from the community of Shamattawa; and two residents, two young people in the community of Nelson House. • (1 520) I cannot help, Mr. Speaker, but be struck by the real pain the communities are going th rough, particularly in terms of Shamattawa and Nelson House. I was in Nelson House for graduation just a few weeks ago, and there were 19 graduates of Roland Lauze School, 19 high school graduates, the largest number they have had.

In fact, it is only just recently that with the new school they have been able to add high school. But, to give you an idea, last year there were five graduates when I atte nded the graduation ; this year there were 19 graduates.

June 29, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4929 Mr. Speaker, you should have seen the pride, the hope in tha t school audi to rium when people received their gradu ation certificates. You know, ironically, within a week a young person died from sniff, and within another two weeks another person died. A community with so much hope on the one hand and yet so much pain on the other. Nelson House has had a difficult time over the years.

There have been a significant number of problems going back to Hydr o flooding, and , unfortunately, in many ways even the road access to Thomps on that brin gs the good aspec ts of connection with the outside world, so to speak, also brings some of the more negative aspects.

It is a community that still through its elders has a very strong spirit, but if there is any concern that people have in the community it is with the young people, young people who are sepa rated from trad itional ways in the history of the community which has seen tra ppin g and hunting and fishing, separ ated partly because of flooding, partly because the impa ct th at has had, but also because of the changing impacts from outside society. Mr.

Speaker, there can be no doubt that the economic circumstances also have to play a fact or, and I want to say I am concerned that many of the graduates of the high school class this year are going to have difficulty finding employment within the community. There are not the jobs there were even a number of years ago . While the Nelson House Band because of the Flood Agreement is hoping to develop some economic development activiti es-and they are very aggressive on that front, have a number of projects ongoi ng-! am concerne d about the emp loyment in the community. Mr.

Speaker, I see it in many other communities as well with young people having in creasingly difficult time in finding employment, would it be dur ing the summer at their many smaller communities in northern Mani toba where there are no summer jobs, none, none whatsoever, and in larger communities such as Nelson House where there are far fewer jobs than there were before. Mr. Speaker, if we are going to deal with the roots of subs tanc e abuse, we have to deal with the root social problems. If we are going to deal with the root social problems, we have to deal with the root econom ic proble ms.

You ng people turn to su bstance abuse in northern Mani toba because they do not have hope. They turn to subs tance abuse because they have no options in their own mind. We have to give them that hope, and we have to give them those options. That is why I say to the gove rnment that when we are dealing with this we cannot separ ate it. We cannot se parate it from economic and social issues in the North. If member s opposite wonder why I am so committed to dealing with such issues as the ACCESS edu cation programs or New Careers or any of the northern tr aining programs, it is because I have seen the diffe rence.

I will gi ve you an example, at the Nelson House graduation this year, of the importance of role models. There was a guest speaker who is the actress that plays on North of 60, who actually is a resident of Norway House, who came in and spoke to the students, a role model to those students in the community of Nelson House. There were people in atte ndance or graduates of many edu cationa l programs in the North, Mr. Speaker. In fact , ir onic ally, ther e were many gradu ates in the community from my own high school, R.D.

Parker Collegiate, because prior to the introduction just recently of a high school in the community offe ring until Grade 12 , most of the students from Nelson House for a period of time went to Thompson, went to Cranberry Portage, went to Dauphin. There were different areas that people went to. There are many people whom I went to school with in the community. Mr. Sp eake r, it is that role model th at is important, and that has to be included. Education is very much a part of provid ing that, but edu cation without job opportunities is a rather hollow way of dealing with the problem .

I am seeing people gr ad ua ti ng today who are being very much impacted by the kind of cuts we are seeing in terms of social ser vices, social ser vice agencies , government budgets. I am seeing people going through the social work program, who, while their classmates one or two or three years ago had automatic employment, are now finding difficulties because there just are not positions because there is not the funding, because the positions have been elimi nated. That does not send a good signal to people in northern communities. Mr.

Speaker, as much as we can talk about social and economic causes and root causes, and as much as we can try to change those social and economic underlying roots, it is obvious there will continue to be a problem in northern Manitoba with

4930 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 su bstance abuse over the next period of ti me. Substance abuse is more difficult to deal with than probably any other addiction. In fact, traditional addiction tretatm ent programs do not work. I know I had a call only a few months ago from a mother concerned about her adult child who was unable to gett any treatment whatsoever. She said the traditional agencies do not deal with it, in terms of the AFM, et cetera, because it is a different type of trea tment. It is more long term . It is more di ff icult to brea k becaus e of the chemic al dependencies.

Also, su bs tance abuse, Mr. Speaker, lea ds to far more long -term an d mediu m-term psychological and physical damage. There are 2,200 people suffering from su bstance abuse in nor thern Man itoba accor ding to the estima tes of the MK0 -2 ,200 people . Mr. Speaker, sub stance abuse does not just destroy lives, it takes lives. There have been four deaths in the past per,iod of time.

I say to the government that, while in deed we should perhaps be looking at treatment of compulsive gambling, gambling in and of itself does not lead to people taking their lives, losing their lives in the same way-th ey may lose it in other ways, quality of life. But when you have four people in the space of two months, four people that have died because of substance abuse , is that not enough of a tragedy that we act? Mr. Speak,�r.

I was watching last nig ht a news report from Davis Inlet, and I use this as a parallel, because when there was national atte ntion of what was happening in Davis Inlet, when a number of children in that community, because of su bstance abuse, because they were high on sniff, attempted to kill themselves, finally the government acted and those kids were provided with a treatm ent program that the gov ernmen t had refused to do before . Mr. Speake,r, fortunat ely, no one in Davis Inlet died from su bstance abuse. Two people have died in Nelson H�ouse.

Two people have die d in Thompson in the last three months alone. It was not recorded em national television, but it is still as much of a trag edy. I mean, how much more tragedy does a community like Shamattawa have to face ? I have indeed visited Shamattawa. How much more tragedy does a community like Nelson House have to face? That is what is happening to that communit )r now as it grieves yet another dea th. How much more tragedy does a communit y such as Thompson have to face, where sniff in an urban community goEIS on on a continuous basis?

I haVE! seen personally six - and seven- and eight -year-olds who are suffering from substance abuse, who were high on sniff. I can show people in my own communit y in Thompson where the su bstance abuse takes place, where it is taking place currently, and I can say that no one who sees the impact it has on people can fail to be moved but, you know, the deaths in Nelson House took place. They will be reported in the news media. The de aths in Thompson took place. It was reported in the newspaper, but there was not the national attention that it requires. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, as I said to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) in the House only a few months ago, as I urg13d the Premier, let us not talk about jurisdiction here , let us talk about a sig nifi cant problem. I challenge anyone in this House to think of any other situation where you have four deaths in the space of !three months where you would not have an outcry. Why is there not the outcry on this? Why is thE1re not the commitment to dealing with it? Why is ther e not the recog ni tion it is a major problem?

Why is the government not following up on the suggestion I made to the Premier that he raise it to the national level, that he raise it the same way that we raised Davis Inlet, through the media? Why did not the Premier on Friday raise it? Will he raise it when he has the opportunity to meet with the new Prime Min ister-d esig nate? Will he not raise it th en? * (1 530) I un der stand que stions of jur isdic tio n. under st and that ther e is some ver y legitima te argument tha t there should be an in volvement by the federal gove rnment, bu t it is not a treaty problem.

It is not even strictly an aboriginal or a northern problem. There are children, there are adults that are suffe ring from substance abuse from all walks of life. I say , Mr. Speaker, to this House , and I par t icularly say to the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchar d), to the Min ister of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae) and to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), four deaths in three months. How many more people have to die before we r,ecognize the severity of the problem? I am not blaming anyone for the problem. I am not pointing' fingers at the government here or the federal gov1ernment.

I do not want to get into that question, but how many more deaths does it take?

June 29, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4931 How many more young people have to die from su bstance abuse before we do something to put in place the kin d of trea tment programs that are re quir ed ? [i nter jection] Wel l, the Minis ter of Hig hways says, what does this bill do? I apprecia te that que sti on, as it is a legitima te question. This bill criminal izes the acq ui sition of the materials for substance abuse. It does not put int o place the treatment that is needed, and there are those who argue this is a good move.

There are those who argue this is not a good move, but virtually everyone who is familiar with the problem of substance abuse has said this is not enough. We need treat ment. We need prevention, and that is where I plead with members of this House to recognize the severity of the pro blem. Four people have died. Two people have died in Nelson House in the last two weeks. What more does it take for us to recognize that this is a serious problem? I though t the comments made ear lier by the member for Point Douglas (Mr.

Hickes) were well intentioned, when he said that there was a similar problem in terms of the cooking wines, Mr. Speaker. If one remembers what happened then, that despite some of the deba te that took place over what was being done and what was not being done ini tially, in the end, there was an attem pt­ and the minis ter with whom I often dis agree on many issues I think did a commendable job in terms of this parti cular issue and working it through the syst em. Why can we not do the same with this problem? Four people have died. Why can we not have a meeting called by the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), the Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchar d), the Min ister of North ern Affairs (Mr. Downey), whoev er, I do not care under whose auspices. I would prefer it be under the Premier because of the fact it in volves the federal government. Mr. Speaker, why could it not be raised at the national level? Why could the government not look within it s own House to see if ther e is some commitment that could be made toward such a treatm ent facility, recognizing that many people will be in volve d , many people who are not under "federal jurisdiction"? Would that not be a more productive way to deal with this?

I mean, that is the problem with this bill. Whether it is good or bad , it is not good enough, Mr. Speaker. It does not deal with the root problem, and whether we criminalize this or not, there are st ill going to be 2,200 people who suffer from su bstance abuse in northern Man itoba. My suggestion is that we send this bill to committee, and we are prepared to send it to committee today, deal with it next week. My sugge stion is listen to people and social agencies and groups that are concerned about this, members of the public. But more imp ortant than going through a formalized process, Mr.

Speaker, let us recognize the reality that many of the people we are talking about will not come to a legislative committ ee. People in northern Manitoba who are suffering from su bstance abuse, they will not be at that legisl ative committee, but they will still be out there. They will still be suffering from su bstance abuse. They will st ill be destr oying their lives, destr oying their health, and there will be more deaths. There may always be deaths. I am not for one moment suggesting that we can elimi nate the entire problem of su bstance abuse even by having prevention and treatm ent.

I believe very str ongly, Mr. Speaker, that four deaths is enough to send the message that this is a tragedy. This is a tragedy of the same magnit ude as Davis Inlet; in fact, probably even greater, and I am convinced that that, in and of itself, is enough for us to under stand in this House that we are not dealing wi th the pro blem, for the federal gov ernm ent to un der stand , and to put aside qu es tions of blame for righ t now and work at partnership with the MKO, with many other people who are working on this. The bottom line is, four dea ths are en ough.

Let us work to gether to elimi nate as much of this problem as we can, and let us start by using some of the creativity that we used on the cooking wine indus try. Let us get in to that committ ee, and let us recognize that there are ways in which we can work around this problem, Mr.

Speaker, that, I think, if we can do one thing in this session, and we talk about a lot of major issues, if we can do one thing in this session that would be of real sig nificanc e for peo ple in the real world , in the province of Man itoba, particula rly in northern Mani toba, it would be to take the problem of substance abuse and do something to get prevention and treatment in place. Anything, even one small ste p, and we will be saving lives. I am convinced of that.

4932 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 29, 1993 So, wh1m we vote on this bill, let us recognize this is not the end. There is a lot more that can be done, and please, I urge the people in this House to take the time. If you cannot come to Nelson House or to Sharnattawa or to Thompson, just go around this city. In the city of Winnipeg, you will find the same problem. Check in your own neighbour ­ hoods. Check with the young people in your own schools. You will find the problem ex ists in every neighbou rhood and every school in this province.

It is time we deal with it and deal wit h it in a constructive way, not pointing blame, but looking for solutions. Thank you. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson) : Mr. Speaker, I have been looking through a file of in formation here related to this bill, and there is newspaper

article after newspaper

article after newspaper

article citing incide nts where young people have died. One of the articles talks about 20 years of studies and 20 years of death due to solvent abuse and sniff. It is inexcusable that we have not had any commitment and any kind of clear way of dealing with this problem over the years, but especially now, especially after there was an agreement prior to this session when the gove rnmen t was in a minority, on a bill that would have addressed the problem of selling sniff to minors. I look through the material here and look at how games are being pla yed with this issue.

It is quite sad to see the way that we are playing politics and games-this government is playing politics and games with the lives of mostly young teenag ers . * (1 540) It is reprehensible that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) would try and accuse us on this side of the House of not quickly passing this legislation, when it is clear from the evidence that is before me right now that this bill, as it is prese nted to us now, is not the best approach to deal with a situation where children are the victi ms.

To develop the kind of legislation that is before us now that further victimizes those young people by then making them criminals, and to make them the ones that are going to be arrest ed, and to not have provisions that are going to deal with the real crime, which is for so often adults to knowingly provide young people with solvents that they, I would think, often knowingly are going to abuse and sniff. It is interesting. I have a pamphlet here put out by the Alcoholism Foundat ion . It is surpr isin g when it talks about the toleranc e that develops.

It is often incomprehen sible to think that there is actually a tolerance that is developed with the individuals that are sniffing, so that they do have to acq uin � and us e more and more nail polish or gasoline or solvent, and to think of what that is doing to their bodies. It is also interesting to note that there is more of a psychologi cal depend en cy than a physical dependency, and that tells us something about this.

That te lls us I think that this, as so many other members have said , is a social problem that results from thE� hopelessness that so many young people are facing particula rly in the North, particularly when we see the sui cide rates in many of the rem ote commun ities in our country and our provincE� and we start to look for some solutions to this. w�� must see that snif f and solvent abuse are just part of the problem, and it is amazing to me that the government would so easily dismiss calls for having some kind of treatm ent centre in the North. This bill is not going to be a solution as it stands right now.

The solution is going to be in putting in place not only treatment facilities but the kind of programs in education and in employment and in recreation that are going to deal with the social problems that young people face that have them in the situation where they turn to sniff. We have many models for that.

We know that there an:� many models that would be very easy, and at such a lesser cost, to provide those kinds of recreatie>n education programs that would teach these young people positive coping skills, rather than having to pay the long-term costs that we are going to end up paying for the health care of these individuals, young people who in volve thems elves in solvent abuse.

So I would say it is much more cost effective to deal with these problems and to deal with these young p,eople at the outset and when they are young. lin the long run, ther e are going to be greater c:osts of dealing with problems, that will again depend upon the public purse down the road. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I had a chance this winter to attend a national con ference that was di rected-it was a youth conference where the young people there were

June 29, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4933 developing stra tegies for solvent abuse prevention. Again, there was a positive step, it was a nationally funded confere nce. There were a number of young people there from across the country. I was somewhat di sappointed that even though the conference was in Winnipe