Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Monday, June 5, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 21

June 5, 1972 The House met at 3:00 P.M. 1'!r. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! Tape 494 HON. W.W. MARSHALL: {MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): PK - l Mr. Speaker before we proceed I would like to rise on a point of personal privilege and it relates to an editorial appearing in June 3, edition of the "Evenin~ Telegram" wherein there was an editorial entitled 11 Cancel Them Now"in connection with the offshore explorations leases. It was said in the editorial and I quote; "According to Mr. Mat'Rhnll an in-depth investigation is to be carried out~ even a royal commission set up ••• 11 Now, Mr.

Speaker, I want to point out as a matter of privilege that I did not make the statement:.,. Unfortunately when some members on this side make statements criticizing what went on in the past,it is presumed that automatically a Royal Commission would take place. This is not so. There was no need of a royal commission to determine that the granting of these leases were wrong. They are perfectly plain for anyone to see and we are taking the necessary action with respect to it. But I want to set the record straight.

The only pecple who referred to the i:oyal commission was the editor of "';"! e :1-1.ny News11 the former Minister of Hines, Agriculture and Resources and the honourable the member for White Bay South,and their

interpretations of what I have said were completely and absolutely incorrect. PETITIONS HR. J. G. REID: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from Hopeall and Green's Harhour. We have in our present asphalt unit crushers with very little stone. The road is well prepared and while the unit is in that area, it is a wonderful time to have that road paved out around Green's Jtarbour-Hopeall. The roads there have been very bad, but this last year or so they got them in shape and are expe~ti_:ig the pavement in that area. We have school buses running out in those communities 1480

June 5, 1072 PK - 2 d''i 2 tn ceruiin places have heen very dzmr;erous. t-J ith a. little upgrading now the n,2-,1 can be ;>a.vcd. Very little work is needed, a fc'f;; culverts, little stone and while the unit is in that area I would certainly like to see and I nm sure the general pu11lic of Green's Harbour and Hopeall would like to see that road paved. I have a petition here of 340 people who signed this petition. }1r. Speaker, I humbly support this petition and move that it 1,c received and laid upon the tahle of the House and snhmitted to the department to which it relates. MR. S.A. NfARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support the petltion presented hy the honourahle member on hehalf of his constitutents in Hopeall and Green's Harbour. I mi?;ht say, so forceahly presented by the honourahle memt'er. If my memory serves me correctly, Hr. Speaker. the pavi.np:: of that road was on the agenda of the previous administration. It was part of our programme, a bit of unfinished business that we left behind. If we had stayed in office 1 think we would have paved that road this year, especially with the equipment beJng so near the communities.

Sot hope that the Minister of Finance has the message loud and clear and that the prayer of the petition will be granted in this fiscal year. On motion petition received.

June 5, 1Y72 NB -l '·lOTIONS: ~--- '1r. Speaker, 1 r,ive notice I will on tor:mrrou ask leave to introduce the following Resolution: HHEPLA.S the presence of the United States Force bas contributed materially to the economic and social welfare of citizens of this Province and in particular to the residents of the Happy Valley-Goose Bay rommunitv, on the m.cdnland port ion of the Province and

WHEREAS the status of the Fntted States Air Force in relation to usage of the military installation nt Goose Hay has only been determined until the end of June 1q73 and WHERE..-\S it is imperative for the stability of the Happy Valley - Goose Bay Area that its long-term future be determined and secured as quickly as possible and

WHEREAS there is no effective rnilltary presence of our nation in thin Province,

now therefore

be it resolved by this honour,1ble House of /1.ssembly in Ler,is.lative Session convened that the r;overnment of Canada be urged to secure the economic and social future of residents of the Happy Valley - Goose Buy Area as quickly as possible hy negotiating long-term arranp,ements suitable to the Governments of Canada and Newfoundland, of not less than twenty years duration, with the United States of America or by providing for the operation of this strategic military operation hy Canadian armed forces and that a copy of this Resolution be transmitted to the appropriate officials of the Government of Canada forthwith.

QUESTIONS: HR _,1,~_;':flJRPllY (Minister of Provincial Affairs). I have a couple of 1-.nswe rs, Mr. Speaker, to f!ues tion No. 2 7. Order paper, Friday, June 2, 1972, no promotions) review of classifications only and one that was Provincial. Affairs, Labrador Affairs. The same question asked hy Nr. Woodward, Labrador North. The answer is none, same question. I have an answer to a question, but I can not find the number. It was the question asked by the Hon. member for W"hite Bay South. 1482

June 5, 1972 Tape 495 It is a question along the s.nfl".e lines as die n::lwr. The nm1ber of persons the salaries of whom w2rc paid out of the vote to hi:; f;eportmcnt of Justice who were granted promotions from one Civil Service c1.ass1.fic;,tion to another for the fiscal year endinr; Harch 311 naming en.ch such person, !fomber of persons 1 nine. The names, Elizabeth Clarke, Phy.11 is Carter, Lorne Tubman, Ruby Walsh, Marie Miles, Rny rrandy, Raymond Greene, David Barret and Gerald Noseworthy.

No. (2), what is the number of persons as referred to in(]) ahove who received such promotJons showinJ~ the numbers for each classification, Number, l Fire Captain,Sl?fJ,60; one Police Prosecutor, $102.OO: one Police Li.eutenant,S51.R4; one Police Sarr,ent, $70.14; one District Court Registrar, 8427 . .50; two Supreme Court and D.istrict Court Reporters T. I suppose that is Grade I, 5832.50; one Supreme Court and District Court Reporter, classificotion II, 5208.00; one Clerk- Stenographer,S8O5,OO: and the total - Question 36, Hr. Speaker, 1483 Yes • 1 t is the answer to

June 5, 1972 Mr. Hickman. Tape no. 496 Page l - MRI/ The answer to No. 3 is $2,082.78. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, in reply to Question No. 34, June 2, part (1): two persons, Malcolm Rogers and Chesley Hapgood. Part (2): one person, a photographic technician, microfilm operator, number two. Part (3): Malcolm Rogers, $123.001 Chesley Hapgood, $263.00. HON. DR. A. T. ROWE (Minister of Health) With regard to Question No. 23, on the Order Paper for June 2, I would like to mention to the hon. Leader of the Opposition that we have some 2,700 employees in the Department of Health.

I wonder if he would wish us to go through this volume or would you care to rephrase your question more specifically so the data could be more easily obtained. It means going through a list of 2,700 employees. If it is important, we will attempt to do that. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am quite familiar with the Department of Health. The minister will find that each month the cabinet have given a list of - appointments are subject to Executive Council ratification. My suggestion is that he talk to 1-;r. Sellers and merely get copies of the various cabinet papers. If he wishes to consult me outside, find.

When I wrote the question, Sir, I was quite familiar with the Department of Health. _MR. ROWE (A.T.): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has suggested that he would be aware of the great volume of work in this number of employees • It is a question that he would_perh~os ask and would like to have the information more specifically given. I will take your remarks back. With regard to Question No. 39 and No. 40, for the information of the table~ regarding medical and surgical specialists and I presume Question NO. 41 is a repeat of Question No. 39 - ORDERS OF THE DAY. MR. ROWE (W.N.): Mr.

Speaker, on Orders of the day, if the honourable member will allow, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister 1484

June 5, 1972 Tape no. 496 Page 2 Mr. Rowe (W.N,): of Justice and the question is: Whether he has instituted an investigation into some serious allegations made by the morning press to the effect that a man who was suffering from an overdose of sleeping pills.I believe,was incarcerated and held in jail for ten hours while suffering from the overdose? If he has asked for such an investigation, does he have any comment that he would wish to make on the matter at the moment? HR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. :member for White Bay South for directing a question to me.

I am rather anxious to clear up any misapprehension or misunderstanding. I am sure honourable members will appreciate this. It would not be in the best interest if I used any names. On June 1, Thursday, a person who was a patient at a hospital was given in charge to the police by a physician for being apparently disturbed. At 2:45 P.H., on the same afternoon, he was examined by a psychiatrist who refused to certify him presumably on the grounds that there was nothing wrong. Anyway he was refused.

As honourable members are aware, under the legislation, in order to have a person committed to the Hospital for Mental and Nervous Diseases there has to be certification by two doctors~ 1ben at 5:35 P.H. on the same day, he was examined by one doctor who certified him. At 6:50 P.H. he war. examined by a second doctor who also 1485

June 5,1972. Page 1, certified this person, following which an attempt was made to locate Magistrate 0 1 Neil to issue the necessary order of commitment. Magistrate O'Neil could not be found. There wns a massnge left for him to contact the station upon his return. In the meantimes around about midnight, I guass,or shortly before that, I was contncted by the solicitor for this man, who complained th.at they were waiting the return of Magistrate 0 1 Neil. I suggested - reminded the solicitor that in St. John's there are four magistrates, namely, Magistrates 0 'Neil, Mulcahy.

Roberts nnd 5Lfour., that all four have the necessary jurisdiction to sign the order. Lmmediately thereafter within a matter 1 think of mdnutes, Magistrate Roberts signed the necessary order,the man was duly committed to the Hospital for Mental and Nervous Diseases~ AN.HON.MEMBER: How long had be been in the station? MR.HICKMAN: He had been there from 2.05 in the afternoon until approximately 11.15 p.m. As I say the police immediately,within thirty minutes after he had been referred to the police by the doctor and the hospital in question.

The first psychiatrist was at the jail to do the necessary examination following which he refuocd to certify the man. Then they had to go looking for two other doctors, the two thnt are required, one doctor certified and at 6.50 p.m. another - then sought Magistrate O'Neil. But I am at a loss to know why one of the other magistrates was not contacted. I feel quite certain that obviously the man must have been disturbed but the doctors who certified, certainly I am sure would not have left the station if the man had been in any danger, following certification. He was there.

In fact, he was taken from the place where he was confined and interviewed in the doctor's office. During that waiting period he was in the doctor's office with his lawyer and his wife. The three of them were together for several hours. So that the story as appeared is really not correct. I am not blaming any one for it. But these are the facts. I can see nothing, no action that police failed to take. It was 1486

June 5, 1972. Tape 497. Page 2. not at all reprehensible and the matter was very quickly settled, As soon as his lawyer telephoned me, I reminded him that there were :three other Magistrates in St. John 1 s. hours before. That could have been done in a couple of MR.W.ROWE: A question. Is there any truth to the rumour,Mr. Speaker, that in the case of the lawyer he will be made a Queen's Counsel as the result of bringing this civil liberties case to the public notice? MR.HICKMAN: No, no truth. 1487

June 5 1 1972, Tape l+?B, Pngc He has not been in practice for ten years. Hr. Speaker, as a n~sult of t.he findings on Thursday pnst in the Department of Highways, cor::cerninµ the causeway connecting Net--r World Island with Twillinp;ate Jsland, may 1 direct a qucation to the hon. Minister of Highways 7 Hhnt decision has been made since that day, and when c.nn we e:,.~pect nn answer, please? HClN. F.VAYNARD (ACTTNG HINISTE'.R or HIGHWAYS): ~{r. Speaker. the Twillinf?atc Causeway is under review by the officials of the departMent and myself at the present time.

I hope within a day or tun to be ahle to make a further statement on the situat"ion, as to what if anytbinr, further wil.1 be carried on this year. ?AP .• F .TI.POWE: ----·---- --*·•--~ ~'r. Speaker~ I would like to adress a auestion to the ~finister of Education. Tn view of the fact that the capital grant to the university does not appear to provide for an adequate increase in space in order to meet the needs of the anticipated student enrollment for next year, c1rn the minister assure the House that Qualified students will not be turned away from the university in September and in the January registration? HON.

JOHN_A.CARTE11 ()fINISTFR or EDl:CATION AND YOU11I): Nr. Speaker, I a~ree that thnt is a very important question, but jt is also n very complex one. The nmount allocated for the university is all that can be managed because of the lcracy of neglect in the last twenty-three years. I am assured that certainly the most competent students will be admitted and that all students w1'o are pronerly qualified shall be admitted. I cannot see any need to reriuce enrollment from the present level.

I do wish - and had to report that we were uomewhat shackled in our efforts to provide the necessary funds for all the institutions under our authority. MR. F.E.Rfli-JE· A supplementary question~ Mr. Speaker. Did I understand the ninistcr to say that no qualified students will in fact be turned away next year when they make appl:tcation to the university? 1488

June 5, 1972, Tape 498, Page 2 -- apb MR. CARTER: Yes. i'-fR. F.B.ROi~_;- Than1: you! Another nuestion, Er. Speaker. Ts it true that during a panel discussion at Memorial University approximately a week before the last provincinl election, that the minister told the students that they would not be required to borrow more that four hundred dollars under the Canada Student Loan in order to qualify for provincial assistance,if the P.C's. were elected? l,lR • CARTER: I will have to take that under notice, Hr. Speaker, because. what I said I will check out very carefully and make a proper answer. }!R. J .HARVEY: Mr.

Speaker} I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Highways (actinp:). I had a report this morninf? from my constituents in Red Bay. Certain areas of the road have been washed out in several places. The people naturally cannot yet over this road. They have to use that road getting hnck nnd forth to the hospital, and picking up bait which is a very important thinr- this time of year at West St. Hodeste,and transporting their kids to school. Has the hon.

Pfnister of Highways been notified of the situation and what does he intend instructing his officials to do ahout ietting that road back in shape as soon as possible? PR. HAYNARD: The Minister's office had not been notified of the ~- -w-------- situation. I will investir,ate the matter this afternoon and see what action is to be taken. }{R. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, may I direct a :i:uestion to the hon. }1inister of Labour?

Has the minister given any consideration to scnclin!! trained staff of his department to offer assistance in brin)!.ing together labour and reanaizement in Labrador West, before out-and-out confrontation occurs, perhaps culminating in an alarming,costly striJ·d FR- }fAYfo\RD: Hr. Speaker, we have had conciliation 1489

June 5, 1972 Tape 499 officen in Labrador West for some considerable time working vith both contract procedures, the Wabush Mines and the Iron Ore Company of Labrador,and the conciliation officer reports to me that negotiations nre proceeding fairly smoothly. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could direct a question to the Minister of Economic Development or the Premier whichever one prefers to answer this question.

The House is aware that Churchill Falls will officially open on June 15 or 16, I think it is, and I would like to ask the minister what measures hnve the government taken to hold equipment, bunk houses, trailers nnd other tools and supplies in Labrador for the development of the Lower Churchill,followine the official opening at Churchill Falls Hydro-development on June 16? Would it not be in the public interest, Hr.

Speaker, for government to purchase all these items and move them to the Lower Churchill for resale later to BRINCO or if government have no hope of developing the LoW'er Churchill in the foreseeable future would this not be a good opportunity for the Department of Social Services to pick up some low-cost housing for recipients of social assistance by purchasing these trailers as distressed merchandise? MR. CRO_§_RIE: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question is no. MR. HARVEY: Mr. Speaker, a question directed to the honourable Minister of Finance.

I wonder if the honourable minister has thought over my question I ask on Friday last and if he has an answer concerning who would employ the men for the Labrador Linerboard Mill in Goose Bay. I do not have the answer here now. ORDERS OF THE DAY: COMMITTEE OF WAYS A.~D MEA.~S (Adjourned debate on the Bud~et). MR. FOBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I shall thank the minister§ He was good enough to adjourn the debate on last Wednesday thus assuring that in 1491} JM - 1

June 5, 1972 Tape 499 fact we had a debate on the Budget. It was one moment when it seems that we were not to have a debate on the Budget bt•t I thank the minister for leaping: to his feet and for leaping into the breach, adjourning the debate. t thank him also for not having anything further to say today. Having listened to two and one half hours of him last week I think that will do me at least and perhaps he Yill take a jaunt around the province for a little bit. Uc will have the pleasure I am sure of hearin~ from him again later in this debate and I for one am looking forward to that.

Now, Sir, the Budget, any budget to say the least is a verv important document. The Budget which the minister brought into the House last week and it is a document thnt comes in a little red book or a wine coloured book, I guess, and that is wine although some may think it should he whine, that nudget, Sir, is the first statement we have had of this administration's philosophy.

Thus I think it is particularly important, it is peculiarly important the first time and indeed I think the minister himself said it is the first time really since 1931 or 1932 since we have had a statement of a Conservative Administration's philosophy resnectin~ financial matters. He have heard a great deal from spokesmen for that party over Jl-! - 2 the years, Sir, but as they were always in opposition their remarks were for the case of opposition.

This Budget was the first time we have had :my statement, any philosophy, any exposition of what a Conservative Administration, a Progressive Conservative administration would try to do and would tr/ not to do. At the time,and it was a quick reaction. 1491

June 5, 1972 Tape 500 PK - 1 HR. ROBERTS: ------- I said the Budget was exactly what I would have expected from the present Minister of Finance. Upon reflection. Sir~ I think it is n valid comment, I think it stands. It is exactly what I would have expected from the minister. The Budget and the more you read it, Mr. Speaker, the more it comes true. I am sure 'four Honour takes it home to Lewisporte on the weekends and entertains your consitutents with illustrating readings from it.

The more you read it, Sir, the more you realize it is completely and utterly bankrupt of any ideas, There is no statement in it of the future, there is no statement of hope, no statement of any intentions or any worthwhile intentions. I was quite surprised to seeHThe Evening Telegram's" editorial along those lines. Normally I would have thought that it would be a matter of some months before the evening paper would take up its traditional position of opposition to the establishment. A very noble and honourable position.

They must have been chagrfn-ed and as surprised as most Newfoundlanders were by the bankruptcy of the minister's approach. I could use bankruptcy in the financial sense, Sir, as well as in the intellectual sense. The Budget does not have in it any statement of the future, Hr. Speaker, all it says,time and time again;we cannot, we cannot, we will not, we shall not, we must not and so forth. Now I know the minister is busily scribbling it down over there and when he gets up to speak I know what he will say.

He will say, we cannot, we cannot because of the twenty-three years of spending by a Liberal Administratinr that has left the province in financial bankruptcy as well as intellectual bankruptcy and so forth. I can hear him now. He will be quite eloquent, He will be quite ssrcastic# He would doubtless provoke my friend from Bell Island as he does so often. But that does not take away, Sir, from the cold,hard fact. It does not for one moment take away the fact that this statement of the administration's 1492

June 5, 1972 Tape 500 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: position is not a statement for the future of Newfoundland, Sir, rather it is a statement of businessman, an accountant perhaps a university professor or two, certainly some of the extremely competent officials in the Department of Finance. It is not the statement the people of Newfoundland expected. It is not the statement the people of Newfoundland wanted.

It is not the statement the people of Newfoundland hoped for from an administration that have been put into office with a very wide support throughout this province and with great expectations, So there is nothing in it expect an attack on the past, 3 n attack which mainly has overtones and self-justification about it, It is an intellectual game of arrogance. The minister has played it before, he will play it again. It makes him feel happy. Nothing gives him more pleasure than saying, "I told you so." The mere fact that he has told us so and told us again does not make it any more so or any more true.

It is filled with some pious platitudes. It is not filled, Sir. with any feeling for this province or any concern for this province or any belief in its future. I, for one, Sir, find no surprise at all in the fact that when the Premier returned and ca~e back in the House, he was in the House before this, but vhen he made his ministerial statement on Thursday that he set up a planning committee. I think I have the name correct, hut certainly that is its purrose, an inner committee of the cabinet, an inner cabinet.

It was of no surprise, First of all the Premier found it necessary to set up a planning committee, having heard as we all did the Budget Speech. He doubtless read it before. Secondly, I was not surprised at all that the minister was not on that committee~ I think that is one of the better decisions that the Premier has made, Sir, but I find it ironic that the man who more than any other in Newfoundland has made~ political hobby-horse out of talk about priorities and planning, I suppose he was the first person p0litically to raise this jargon. It is a jargon term. It is a valuable one, but 1493

June 5, 1972 '/0.pe 500 PK - 3 l·ffi. ROBERTS: it is not a new idea~ The ninister was the first one, he uas then on this si<le of the House, Maybe he was on that side and then this side and then that side. But anyvay he was the first to have raised it. I find it ironic in the extre.::ie thnt the l'remier did not put the minister on that comnittee, I think it in significant. I think it hodes ill for the ninister, I do not wish hin any ill, Sir. I am quite amused by the gentleman's attitude. I am not impressed by his arrogance. I do not pretend to he eloquent. Sir.

I do not pretend to be eloquent, I do not have the speech Wbiters. I am far more con­ cerned about trying to say my point and if the minister wants to hecome sarcastic let him. If he t;::mts to become arrogant I cannot stop him either. But he is arrogant, Sir, we have seen that already in this House. The Prerder is not. I must say I ar::: quite surprised to find that nnd I nm pleased. Maybe the Prem:ler has taken the right approach. Now, Sir, this budget is really two separate budgets. He have on one hand the speech of the minister.

As he has said quite properly, it is his speech. 1t is the Budget Speech of the Minister of Finance. He gives it. He brings it into the House. It is his speech on a motion that Your Honour do leave the Chair, It 1ss a statement of the administration 1 s philosophy. It is a statement to which every minister must give alleg.-:iance. It is a statement for which every m:inister of course is responsi.ble. But :i.t is, it is, Sir, the minister's budget speech. That is one train of thought, Sir. That is one statement.

On the other hand we. have the estimates which show the detailed expenditures the government propose to carry out this year, which shov the :money they will be asking the 'House to vote. Sir, first in a committee and then .pnc.e. the conmittee passes it, the appropriations bills will be put through the House. Sir, I submit the two are completely different. You would not know 1494

June 5, 1972 Tape 500 PK - 4 NR. ROBERTS: that the same man had prepared both documents. Indeed, t•r. Speaker, we can conclude that the same man did not prepare hoth documents. The Budget, the minister's speech, the whining document we have here is tough. It talks tough and then it talks more tough. If you read it and believe it, Sir, you can be filled with foreboding of what is p,oing to happen to this province if the minister continues with this ph:1losophy. Then, Mr.

Speaker, when you come to look at the estimates, the detailed story,you see quite clearly that the minister did not have hi.s 01;,m way or he is wearing two hats, one or the other, because thPy are not the same, Sir. The largest deficits in Newfoundland's history, this is from the man who complains about deficits. Now you will say they were Liberal Govern,'Tlent programmes. So they were. Sir. But if 1495

June 5, 1972 Tape 501 NB - l he has the courage he talks so much about, he could end those programmes. I am not suggesting he does, But if he had the courage of his convictions as he expressed them so often the last two or three years, he would have done so. he would cut spending. Indeed, I believe, Mr. Speaker, the minister did cut spending. I think he made an honest effort. Then 1 think that others prevailed. I think the cabinet or a committee of tfw cabinet or one or two members of the cJbinet prevailed upon him. I say thatl Mr.

Speaker~ from the evidence presented in the Budget and in the Estimates, the public documents, from my own knowledge of the minister. I have known the gentleman for years. I never served in a cabinet with him, Sir, and I never expect to. But, I was a member of the House when the hon. gentleman last hrought in a Budget or a Budget with which he was associated. That was the famous cholocate .. bar budget in 1968. The hon. gentleman was a member of that cabinet as was the present member for Fortune Bay. He was a member of that cabinet as was the present Minister of Justice.

The hon. gentleman gave the Budget address. Well that makes it all the juicier, Mr. Speaker, because the hon. gentleman can then con­ firm me when I say that, without revealing any cabinet knowledge, I was not privey to any cabinet knowledge, Sir. Oh, I remember all sorts of references by the minister. I am sorry; the honourable gentleman. He was a minister, Sir, and he probably has hopes of being one again. Many are called but few are chosen, Sir. minister. He may be a second-tier. No he will not be a third-tier Hr. Speaker, the budget is tou2h~ the estimates are not.

The minister has talked like a tiger and acted like a pussy-cat. There is nothing to this, Sir. We hear talk of discipline. We hear talk of it. We all shivered when the minister went down to the Bankers' Institute and like a tabby he purred, but now he meows - but then he purred. He made a speech. Mr, Speaker, I am sure people shivered in their boots. ! am sure as well, the cabinet shivered in their boots at the tough line. Sir, I have not got the text. I read the newspaP,er accounts. I have 1496

June 5, 1972 Tape 501 NB - 2 heard the accounts on the radio and television. The minister talked tough. What was not going to happen. Sir. He was going to slash here and slash there. ' 1 John the Slasher 0 • 1 'Jack the Ripper'', they will be calling him. I really believed them, Sir. I know the hon. gentleman. I know that this is the way his mind vorks. I know that he thinks he is running a business. I know that the hon. gentleman believes that if you can not afford to run the hospitals for twelve months you only run them for ten. If you get sick in the eleventh, that is your fault.

You should have had your priorities better. You should have had your plnnninµ_ better. The hon. gentlema.n 1 s philosophy, it is a tenable philosophy. It is a disasterous philosophy for a -Province, Sir, but it iB n valid philosophy. He woulrl be a great professor of a business school or n great deputy minister. That is what he said at the Rankers' Institute. There were goinp, to be no hospitals. He did not say that, but that was the implication. There was going to be no, nothing. Did I hear one of those chirps over there, Sir? The hon. nember for Burgeo. Well, I will have a few words on him.

It is nlwnys a pleasure to talk about the honourable ~entleman from Burgeo. I guess he is probably the most expensive 11 H.l1.'' we have ever had elected here, two point six millions for a fish plant. Considering? after all the honourable gentleman said publicly it was worth less than one million. We will come hack to that, Mr. Speaker. Yes, the honourable gentleman will have to answer. He might get the nDaily News 11 of February 17, 1972, because that is the reference to it. So, Hr.

Speaker, I believe that the hon. minister did not bring in the Estimates and Budget that he wanted, I believe he bought in the Budget he wanted. I believed he knuckled under in the Estimates. I believe he gave in. I believe there was a terrific st:niggle within the cabinet or among or between members ~£ the cabinet. Sir, I cannot prove that, I have no access to c 3binet information. But, I can say that every reporter in this House and I can say that every member, I believe has heard this too, "<Jill tell of a great struggle which took place on Thursday and Friday

June 5 ~ 1972 Tape 501 NB - 3 of last veek. The Premier arrived home. Well, we will not say where he was. He was on public business. That was what "Information Newfoundland 1 announced. He wata away and he came back. Anyway, he was away and he came back and for that we should give thanks. He came back and naturally enough 1 suppose he wanted to look at the Budget. If I were premier, I would want to look at it too. The minister had been at it for n while, tireless as he is and with all the ability that he got. I do not doubt either his dedication or his ability or his willingn~ss to work like a Trojan.

The story is, Mr. Speaker, when the Premier came back and he had a look at it, he and the minister had a heart to heart talk down on the eighth floor, Eye ball to eye ball. MR. ROBERTS: Well it was eye ball to eye ball,if you want to use the Cuban confrontation. They went up against one another and they took the measure of one another. The Premier won, Sir. That is why today the Estimates nn<l the Budget are completely different. i.rn.. CROSBIE: Thn t is your opinion. MR._,-RQBERTS: All right, Hr. Speaker, I expect the hon. gentleman to deny tt.

Hhat else would he do except to deny it7 He did not leave the Cabinet. <:o he must deny it. He must even defend this Budget, Sir, and defend these E:.timntes. r have no doubt if we could entice the - ~.fR .__f,R,OS,B TE: fnaudib le. ~-m-~npnr:.~TS: ~-1r. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman would be good enough to hold his petulilnt impatience for a bit. "ffi._ CRDS!HE: Ile is tempermental, you know. 1 m. ROTifRTS: He has had two and one-half hours, Sir. 11e doubtless will have r:1any hours more. I do not bccrudge him a minute of it. I find him hard to listen to, hut I do my best.

I have no doubt that if we could entice the Premier into this debate that he too will say the same thing, Sir. I expect him to, I do not disbelieve them. I merely say, Hr. Speaker 1 that every person connected with the public life, the reporters in the gallery,, they cannot speak, they cannot speak in this House. They are not members. They have heard the rumours. Sir, and there have been 1498

June 5, 1972 Tnpe 501 :rn - 4 too many rumours from too many sources. ~m. CROSBIE: \·:ho spread them'? Not I' and not .:my member over here. He made it up. Oh! Come on! Oh, ~Jr. Speaker, the hon. gentlecan is simply p-,oi.nr, to have to contain h.imsclf, or we will just hnve to ask Your Honour for a rulinr,. !Jo, no, no, Let my colleague restrain himself too. l know thnt my colleague and the hon. r,entJenn.n opposite n.re like oil and water. We hnve .ilrcady hnd the spectacle of the hon. r,entleman calling my colleagues sliI:1y and he called ny colleague here a contemptible worm and he called me a ror;ue.

That is just a catart. I nm sure that the hon. gentleman, we will get rnnrc out of hin. lie is pretty i:ood at dishinr out, Mr. Spenker, and not so :;ond at taking it. ~fow let him stay quiet. If he wnnts to le.nve the House, by all means do. If he wants to sit there, I am delir;hted to see hir.i. Uc hns got his nice pink tie on today nnd I find it very pleasant to gaze upon, very pleasant indeed, I'!R•. __ q,rzos~ Try to stick to the truth. There we are ar;ain, '.-ir. Speaker.

There we are again. have not said this rumour is true, I am merely snyinr, that T have heard the rumour as has every member of the House, rmd has every member nf the Press Gallery. They have hen.rd the rumour. He cooked it up. ~lR._~]lOJ.i_f:RTS: !lo. Mr. Speaker. And, >1r. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman try to be good enough to restrain himself. lle is ~et ting flushed ngain now. The pink, I am sorry, it was not a pink tie, it was a pink shirt. The pink of his shirt is rising. Even the hon. mcr.iher from St. John's South has to laur;h at thot. Do not let them see you, Sir.

Do not let the hon. gentleman be seen by his hon. colleap,ue.s. Hr. Speaker, I think the evidence shows that we have two sepnrntc budgets here, two separate philosophies, There is just nothing the same. We have the largest deficit in Newfoundland's history. The largest deficit, I am willing to believe, ~1r. Speaker, and 1 say now that when the minister, 1499

June 5, 1972 Tape 501 NB - 5 if he is the minister eight or nine or ten months from now when the next year's budget and estimates are brought in, and he may be and he may not be. Mere statements that he will be,from anybody, do not prove that he will be. But I am willing to bet that next year we will see deficits as large or larger. By deficits, Sir, I do not mean deficits on current accounts, I mean the total cash expenditure, the fact that on capital account we have large borrowings, $10,0 millions, $150 millions.

The net this year is $203,000,000 from all sources, That includes some debt redemptions and I may add, includes a lot fewer debt redemptions than last year. Last year the g~vernment redeemed $46.3 million in debt. This year the gover_nment estimate they will redeem $28.4 millions. The 1500

June 5, 1972. Tape 502 Page 1. sinking funds arc Sl.4 million higher,Sir. So, you have $8 or $10 million more on this year's deficit, on vxpt 0 nditure, because there is $8 or SlO million less on debt reder1ptions. You will see that next year, Sir, I am willing to believe you will see supplementary estimates too, Supplementary Supply - items that are just as foreseeable now as anywhere in the past. That does not mean they are foreseeable.

I do not believe the Minister of Education will be able to get through the year, if he really means what he said a few minutes ago about no qualifled student being denied admission to Memorial. Then, I say now, Mr. Spenker, the honourable gentleman will be in looktng for supplementary supply next year. TTe have already seen his handling of the bus thing - a retreat that makes Bonaparte's retreat from Moscow look like a beginner's effort.

That is just the start - but I should not be hard on the honourable gentleman - incompetence is its own reward, as the honourable gentleman knows. at the past,u If he wants to be smart, he can say. "yeah, look ~r. Speaker, we will see when the Minister brings in his budget nef;t year. Already he has run up the greatest spending total and the greatest deficit in Newfoundland's history, $138.7 million, Sir, $33.5 m1llion more than last year. Total borrowings; Sir, are $200 millions, it was $200 millions .last year. But, Mr. Speaker, even with these vast expenditures there are cuts.

The :Minister almost boasts about them. Indeed, l think he does, I think he glories in them. I think he feels that they are a very good thing. I give him credit for being steadfast in his beliefs. The Mothc1·s 1 Allowance is being cut out, Sir. It docs not surprise me when the Minister was on this side of the House, indeed Sir. when the Minister was on that side of the House, as a backbencher. as he was briefly, until he left, even then, Sir, he advocated that this particular programme be ended. He hns been consistent. He has carried on throu;.:;h the years. 1501

June 5. 1972. Tape 502 Page 2. He has not changed his mind at all. Now that he is the Minister of FinatH:e he has carried out what he said. It is one of the few instances where he has, but he has done this. They are to be cut off the expenditures, Sir. He will not sec a saving or $3.2 million, that is one of the half- truths in the Bl1dget. There are 160,000 school children in Newfoundland approximately, $20 each per year, $3.2 millions in a full year. You will not see~a full year's expenditure this year, Sir. We have also seen cuts at the t:niversity, despite what the Minister of Education says.

We have seen cuts particularly on the capital account side, particularly as well in the student loans. As of September 1. whenever students apply for their loans this year, they will have to borrow $600 instead of $400. That is a fifty per cent increase. They will have to borrow that much more before they qui1 1 ify for any of the provincial government assistance which I from memory, goes hand in hand fifty-fifty with the Canada Student Loan. But, Sir, I submit that there is a consistency in these. These are the two major cuts in the Budget. There is a consistency in them, Sir.

There is a philosophy underlining them. There is a thought. There is a plan. Both of them,Sir, hit poorer people. They do not hit the well-off people at all 1 I v:;sure the honourable gentleman. lie has three children. I am not sure that any of them are at school in Newfouncl~and. I am not sure, indeed t maybe his eldc•st child or children are finished their high school education, goinr; to t:niversity. He has three children, honourable gentlemen on the other side have children~ Some of them doubtlessly got this allowance. They may well even have laughed at it. Just joked at it.

Certainly a $20 bill did not mean anything to them. A $20 bill meant nothing at all to them. But I can tell them, Mr. Speaker, that there are thousands of people in Newfoundland to whom that $20 does J11ean something. If this particular administration does not think so, let them get out around • If honourable members opposite were free to speak what they believed, what they found, they w.:iuld ngree with that. 1502

June 5, 1972. Tape 502 Page 3. the money is important, Sir. Th!" mere fact that the Government of Canada are going to bring in a Family Income Security programme - T must say this is one of the more unhappy anachronisms I have ever heard. The mere fact that they are going to bring it in does not excuse it. The other week the honourable Minister of Social Services & Rehabilitation was asl:ed about a statement made in Ottawa by John Munro, the Minister of Health & welfare at Ottawa.

The statement, to be fair, was made with reference to the Old Age Security payment which the Government of Canada now increase, are increasingt the Parliament of Canada authorized that a week or two ago. Hr. Munro at Ottawa had made a statement in which he said that he had hoped that the Provinces would not take advantage of the fact the Federal payments are being increased so as to reduce the provincial payments. That would be relevant to the people on Social Security, Sir.

Because a man and his wife on Social Security get more money than does one person, a husband and wife with one of them qualifying for the Old Age Security and the Guaranteed Income Supplement. So that is what Mr. Munro said. The question, quite properly and quite naturally was put to the Minister of Social Services & Rehabilitation, what did he think of this? Well, Sir, I have not the precise wording of it here, I am subject to correction on it.

What he said, we all applauded when he said that they were not going to make, they being the administration, they are not going to penalize the poorer people of the Province. They were not going to take advantage of Ottawafs generosity to increasing Old Security Payments to enable the Province to chisel a few bucks on supporf for elCerl}I people through the Social Assistap.ce programme. That is what the honourable gentleman said. Good philosophy~ I am sure that all of us would agree with it. I knot1 that in the past we we.re not always able to do that.

I think indeed on occasion I can remember difference of opinion. But I think that the Cabinet felt that we had to take a different tack in those days. I am glad the present Cabinet does not, Sir. I think 1503

June 5, 1972. Tape 502. Page 4. that is very good, Our elderly need the assistance. But then Jack the Ripper comes in" Sir, he doer, not cut the - rips the mothers 1 allowance What is his excuse? Ikcrn.rse Ottawa is going to give them some more money. So, the trnqv1ye.rs of Canada are going to be asked to put up more money so our government can carry out the wish of the Minister of Finance, the feeling he has had for years, part of his personal vendetta with the previous Premier. I think it is rank hypocrisy.

Either the honourable Minister of Social Services & Rehabilitation will leave the cabinet or he ~ill have to explain his statement. They are not consistent, Sir. moment. They are not consistent for one If the honourable gentleman. Mr. Speaker, felt it unnecessary felt the allowances were not any good, felt they were a bribe or felt they ''ere an insult to the mothers of this Province. I do not doubt that he and all his friends believe that.

No doubt at all, Sir, that down on Circular Road or even dovn in the other end of Hogan's Pond, where the rich people llve, as opposed to my end where the mortgages sre . ,l,at cover the houses, I have no doubt, Sir, that they believe that. They really think the people do not need it. They laugh at it, it i.s only another $20 bill. What is a $20 bill to them?

But I can tell Your Honour that there are many people in Lewisporte District, tn White Bay North or any other dj_strict I name, the honourable M1nister of Community and Social Developreent in a previous reincarnation ran a finance company, he gave out loans, I suppose he tried to get them back. He will agree, that $20 is important to a lot of people. I was in Buchans on Firday night speakjng to a high school graduation. I did not raise politics with anvbody. I did not fee.1 it was the place. I can tell the Premier that person after person came up to me and raised the subject.

They are not unset about t!Je tobacco tax. It is only another dollar a carton , I suppose if you are hooked on the habit another ten cents a packet does not really matter. I do not think.there 1504

June 5, 1972. Tape 502. Pages. is any outcry against that. But I can tell him this Mothers' Allowance struck deep and the university cuts have struck deep. People in this province now feel their child might not get into university. We have had a great dream in Newfoundland now for fifteen or twenty years Sir. We have too many dreams and dream no little dreams~ 1505

June 5, 1972 Mr, Roberts. Tape nc. 503 Page 1 - MRW Let the honourable gentleman remember that. We have had a policy in this province of any qualified student by the university standards (The university sets those standards) can get into the university. Well I do not know if that is going to be true this year or not. We will await the statement from the Minister of Education~ If it makes as much sense as his previous statements on bus - the honourable gentleman misled the House too, (I will come back to that) on the bus policy and then retreated in shame and humiliation,and so he should.

There has never been as incompetent a minister and that.Mr6 Speaker, covers a lot of ground over twenty-three years,! can tell you • HON. J.A. CARTER (Minister of Education): Would the honourable gentleman give way for - MR. ROBERTS: Would I give way for what? MR. CARTER: Do you want me to make a slight comment? MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir, of course I would not give way Lor him to make a slight comment! He can speak all day if he wishes. MR. CARTER: Very well, MR. ROBERTS: He can speak outside the House if he wishes or he can speak inside the House. Let him speak in his turn.

I would be interested and delighted when the honourable gentleman makes his statement. I always listen with interest to them. They are fictional. He stood in the House, Sir, on May 29 and he said; 11 no school board is going to get less or substantially less than bus allowances. 11 On that same day a superintendent of a board in Newfoundland wrote to me and said, 11 last year we were getting $150,000 and this year, unless the minister changes his formula, we are getting $75,000, 11 May 29, Monday • The minister has withdrawn from that postion. He has been pushed back.and so he should have been.

He is also now. going to set a misleading estimate. We will come to that. But on the university, Sir, not just on current account but on capital account, where are the engineers going to go to school, Sir? Where are all the art students going to go? The unive:rnity's enrollmi!nthas increased every year. 1506

June 5, 1972 Tape no. 503 Page 2 Mr. Roberts Will it this year, Sir? I do not know. Judging from the statement the hon. Minister of Finance made, it will not. I have not asked the university officially because that is not my role. That is not my part. I know there is concern over there among the administration, among the higher echelons, among the men and women who have the job of shaping the university. They do not have enough on capital account, Sir. We did a great deal last year, Sir, and we did more - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Indeed we did, Sir. Mr. Speaker, let me just comment on that.

The honourable minister thinks he can go through the next four years merely reciting what he considers to be the sins of the pastt some of which are sins. I am the first to omit it, Sir. I take my full share of the responsibility just as the present member for Fortune Bay was the minister who brought in the "Chocolate Bar Budget. ii I am sure he takes full responsibility. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry. It was the gentleman who told me that he read the budget. MR. ROWE (W.N.): He does not remember which ones he read. MR. ROBERTS: Well he did not write them,as he himself confessed afterwards.

He did not have the courage to do it at the time. But, Mr. Speaker, if the minister or the Premier think the people of Newfoundland will accept that instead or in place of a philosophy of governmentt an accomplishment of progress, then they are sadly mistaken. I do not think the Premier believes that. The Premier is showing himself all the time, Sirt to be a smarter and smarter politician, infinitely smarter and infinitely a better politician than the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the university again, the minister's policy there is another case of hitting the people least able to pay.

The sons of the doctors and the lawyers and the merchants and the people doing well, Sir. 1507

June 5, 1972 Mr. Roberts Tape :10. 503 Page 3 making $10,000, $1:Z,OiJO and $15,000 a year, it does not bother them in the least to have to borrow $600 instead of $400, Sir~ It does not bother them at all, My friend from Labrador Horth who has a few pence in the bank or out of the bank but has a few pence, (he does not have a son old enough to go to University yet) but if his son were at the university, Sir, it would not bother him to have co borrow $600 instead of $400,before we got any aid at all. But there are thousands of Newfoundlanders, Sir, who are not in that position.

There are mery and even in Labrador West which probably has the highest per capita income in the province. Everybody down there is well paid, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Yes for the honourable gentleman I would any time~ MR. MURPHY: These loans, when must they be repaid? MR. ROBERTS: The loans, Sir, are guaranteed by the Government of Canada, not the government of the province but by the Government of Canada, which government pays the interest up to and including a date one year after the student either graduates or leaves school. MR. MURPHY: In other words,the parents do not have to pay - MR.

ROBERTS: Oh! I did not Gay the parents,Mr. Spenker. MR. MURPHY: But inferrinp, that. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am neither stating nor inferring it. MR. MURPHY: You are. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable gentleman thinks he can read inferences let him read inferences. I will stand by my word. They are forced to borrow more. Sir, there are many people living - the honourable gentleman is proud of the title, 11 The Boy from Flower's Hill" (Topsail Pond Subdivision). MR. MURPHY: Hogan's Heroes • 1508

June 5, 1972 Tape no. 503 Page 4 MR. ROBERTS: I am one of Hogan's heroes sure! Myself and th..; Minister of Finance walked on the waters jointly at Hogan's Pond, hand-in-hand. It was quite a sight. No! no! that is Ode to a Grecian Urn now, Mr. Speaker. If we stop on the greasy road, who knows who will slip. Mr. Speaker, there are many people in Newfoundland to whom the thought of borrowing money - I suppose to any people, to the minister because he has a horror of borrowing money. His figures are a little larger. He is dealing with the province and not with an individual frunily, the needs of a family.

I stand by it. I think the honourable gentleman will agree with me that this will hurt the students. It: will stop them, I will wait and see now. Maybe it is all part of the one plan. On the one hand, the Minister of Education is not going to be able to provide the university with enough capital and on the other hand, they will reduce the enrollment• Well that ~~kes sense, if they want to do that, But either way, Sir, this is the P.nd of the policy of an open university, If I am not correct and I hope I am not, let the minister get up and say it. Let hi~ retreat again.

We better get that re.cord, "Bonaparte's Retreat " and a little drum for the minister when he makes his statement . It should not be like that. It is not fair to pick on him, is it? It really is not. If the Lord helps those who cannot help themselves,then he got much helr from the Lord and I do not mean Stephen Taylor. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Oh! listen to him. AN HON. MEMBER: You are shivering in your boots. MR. ROBERTS: Ha, somebody else came through! Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the Budget Speech is a very clear indication of the government's philosophy.

I do not think these words are used in the speech. I do not think they were used by the minister in any of his comments. I think they are probably newpaper words or editorial words but it is ua tighten-the-belt-budget. 11 The only problem is that 1509

June 5, 1972 Mr. Roberts. Tape no. 503 Page. 5 the guy whose belt gets tightened is the poorer man again. There is no belt tightening down on Circular Road nor is there anv on the end of Hogan 1 s Pond. I do not even think there is much on Topsa:U Pond really or any of the other, Lawrence 1 s Pond. l can tell the honour ab le gentleman that in Buchan's they feel it. 1 have heard from my own district. In the little places, just ordinary people trying naybe. to get a kid off to University or keep t!,eir kids in school - let the hon. gentleman from Labrador West laugh and let him smirk. Let him smirk if he wants to!

I do not care about the honourable gentleman's heart. I do not know if he has one. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I do not even care about his head. I am not even sure he has one of those. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR ROBERTS: He has something on top of his shoulders. AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, I am quite serious. There are manv people over chis province - I wish the honourable gentlemen opposite could read my maiL I do not he'-'r only from pecple in my own district. I hear from people who cannot see the Mini~ter of Community and Social Development.

Let him go back to Buchans and meet the union. They are waiting to see the honourable gentleman. AN HON. MEMBER: The compassion is overwhelming. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman's compassion - no I have no compassion for the honourable gentleman, Sir. He went to Buchans and a date was made with his executive assistant, his high-price Grand Falls executive assistant. I believe he is getting $12,000 a year, Sir. Twelve thousand is what the estimates say.

A date was made with him to come to Buchans~ the minister and the Minister of Health, to talk with the hospital committee, a private group perhaps but a group that speaks 15.10

June 5, 1972, Tape 504, Pa~e 1 - aph uas elected to the puhlic P1eetinr, a group that has a right to be hen.rd. We believe in participatory democnrcy. The minister wns in and out of Buchans before anybody knew it. He 1 'snuck'' in and he « snucknout. AN 1-!0N. ~1'£?•1BER: The !<roadrunner. --·-- -- MR. ROBERTS_: ''Yeah' the "roadrunner'' might be iL Then, he had the pall to say that he had never heard of it, he did not know of the nppointment, that his friend in Cnmd Falls, Mr. T1ic.l~s, nr. Sam Dicks, had not told him of the appointment. That is a first-class executive assistant.

I am sure the member for Ferryland tells the Premier of his appointments, I am ouite sure of that. AN HON. MEMBER: You do not know what you are talking about. ~rn. ROBERT_S~ I only know, Hr. Speaker, what five men told me in Buclmns on Friday evenin~. I know what they told me, Sir. I have a letter from them saying the same thinp.. I have seen the letter of abject apology the minister wrote them. What the minister does not know, is that his ovtn secretary here in Confederation Buildinp called those men on that day and said, naminp; the hon. minister; 11 Have you seen the minister?

He is supposed to be meeting with you and I have a message for him." He did not know that his secretary here in the building called looking for hip. MF. SF,NIOR: : ~ot the messaµe. ,l,T:,,_Y.flJ1ERT_S_:_ The hon. 1;entleman will get the message when those men in the union get hold of him. He will get the message, it will come back to him as well, Sir. it ,;,_•J 11 come back to him~ A tHelve thousand dollar a year executive assistant who cannot even ~et a messav,e to a Mi.nister of the Crown in his own district. !tN HON. PEMBER~ It will not do you a hit of good. }m.

ROBERTSJ I do not care if it will do rne any good, Sir, I am not concerned about me. I am not even concerned aho, t the minister, but I am concerned about the people in Buchans or anywhere else for that matter. Let them laup:h, Sir, I have seen that before, indeed, I may 1511

June 5) 197'2, Tape .504. Paf"C 2 --- apb hnve been part of it before. HON. !f£FTIER • ----~~----- -- That is an excellent golf course ... !'P. ROBERTS: He will cor:1e to the zol f course. I hope they lvwe viven the hon. minister. Sir, a membership in it. The Premier also is a golfer. but I can claim no such atlethic prowess. The Prerr'li0r could go out an<l tee -- Is tee-off the - "yeah' you tec--off in golf do vou not? SOME HON. ttnmERS: (Inaudible) ·----·· t-1P. POBFRTS: I am sorry, ·pe will come to that lnter.

Well, ,,·c uilJ ---~------ come hack to that polf course. 1 he1 ieve it was prohnhly rcconmf'ml1?1 1 hy the officials durinj.!: our tenure of the ministrv. I can tell the hon. Rentlernan the cabinet turned it down. JI_ new cabinet caJne in - am sorry again, the hon. AN llON. }-ff'.1 .fBER ~ --------- ------ (First pn.rt inaudible) cabinet sncrecy1 Mf'._ROHERTS: No, it is no cabinet secret, Sir. It was not done. 1f it were recommended by the officials and not done, obviously it Vi'l.S turned down by the ministry. }rr. Speaker. since that we have seen the belt ti~htening and we will see ~ore.

They hnv~ cut capital account, or they are not spending as much this year as last year even thoup.h the deficits are larger, but that is because of the Stephenville rcouiremcnts for the mill, to finish the mill in Stephenville. Thev have cut Highways from $41 millions to $21 million or $21.3 millions. I find that verv interestinJT, Ap-ain, it will hurt poorer parts of the provincf'. It means that there is no Twillin1?ate Causeway unless they do some fancy double work. It means that work is now stopped. What woney they spent on a ner,;otiated contract during the election has been spent.

We hear petition after petition heing brought in. The hon. gentleman from Trinity South brought one in today from rreen's Harbour and Hopeall, I believe for a bit of pavement. They should hnve it, maybe they wi.11 get it. Sir, the Premier has n crack? Would the hon. Leader permit a que:;tion? 1512

June 2, 1972, Tape 504 1 Page J -- apb PR. ROBER]'~_ Yes, ~r. Speaker, any time. ~-1:l. MOORES: All right, in cabinet when the contract for the Twillingate Causew-ay was negotiated at that time. HR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, first of all, if I may riuote the Premier's House Leader, we should not use the word 1 you." The f!entlerr:an ... ?:~-·-!~ I am sorry. YR. ROBE!JS:~ The minister re::1de a great point about that the other day. I said that durinp the period leading up to the March election the Twillingate Causeway extension was negotiated. If I am wrong, I will stand corrected quite r-ladlv.

If I am wrong and maybe 1 am. I did not ring any of the men who could tell me; AN HON. FEMBER: What period? Pardon me! .f<_O!_E,F_TS:, During the period from January 18th., or after January 18th. when the ministry c.hanp:ed handn. The period leadinf! up to the 1-farch election. (Inaudible) I am sorry? There was another contract formed. !'ffL~ FOBEPTS: The.re were two contn1cts. Phase {

l) was done last summer and I believe it was done on public tender. Am I correct? There was a a tender called and Western Construction p:ot the. contract. Western Construction cnrried on on a negotiated contract. About $noo,noo was spent. I have no doubt good money was got and a negotiatin~ contract on those terms or those conditions is not unusual when you have a contractor on site. The fact rennins, as I understand it the contract was negotfoted. If I am wronp; I will gladly admit it, if I am - I will look it up.

I cannot ask the deputy minister, I mean, I hr1ve no riRht to that information from officials any more. He have seen cuts in the proposed expenditure on our highways. We nre not going to see much uork done this year. I would think the monev

June 2, 1972, Tape 504, Pnf!e 4 -- aDb in the estimates - when we. come to the actinf minister, I nm sorry that the mtnister Mmself is not b;u::i,. I understand he i.s on the mend. is he? r.ood, well that Js rood, I tmuld ir.adne this worJ, v:Hl rnerel_v carry on the work in nrogress. The \'1inistcr of Fisheries, who down in Bay Tl 1 Fspoir durinr Hnrch was snyinp; · 'l'he road will he navcd fron H:i_lltmm right nrotmd to St . .A.lhnn 1 s and the work will start this vear.· Hell that IT'iW hf' in here, Sir.

T hope it is, for the hon. rentleoan 1 s safrc. foll the othf'r nromises that were made durinf? the i10rch election, and I mn not even talkinr- as yet. we will here a lot in the ve.1rs to come nhout the tforthcrn Peninsula roarl. nurinp: thr 0ctober eJ ection the rncmher for St . .lohn 1 s West, the present Finance ~1inister made a sneech on thr r:u.lto, on the r.B.C:. free-time broadcast. in which he sai,! the Progressive Conservative P.dministration "-·ould reconstruct and pave that rond. I fervently 110:r.c they will, I fervently hope so. It is the longest road in the province.

There arc as many neople served hv it as bv the Burin Peninsula road. Now that the Burin Peninsula road is all under cnntrac t or nhout to ~o under contract, thar,ks to Don Jamieson, I Pm.y add sorr:ething that has been recognized bv the people up there• They have nsked. petitioned formally, I umlcrstand the ioint councils have written to the p:overnrnent, I do not know tD whom, hut to somebody in the ~overnrnent aslrinrr if the hir-hwnv can he narnetl the non .Jnm:i eson Iliphwav. I thin!-: it would be very p:oorl,it wou.ld he very big of the prec;ent ;itlrflinistration if they were to do 1t.

It would nlso t'e very fnfr. MJ1. U.N.ROWE: The hon. rneriber for Burin thought it was r,oinp to be the Hicl:mnn Highway. No. it will not he the Hickman Hir,hway. No, no it will not, the Hickman Highway runs from Lnwn do-wn throm~h Lord's Cove, nnd Lanialine, the loop, they cnll it, the 1oori. We wil.J sec if that is done this year. We will see if the municipalities arc swing to get their work done this year, all the share-cost paving projects that were p.oinp

June 2. 1972, Tnpe Sot1, Pnge 5 --· npb to happen. I hope hon. pentlemen opposite are 11.stenj_np:, because. 1 am trying to help the:n. They will be back with their constituents tryinfC to explain this. Tryinf to exr,lain it, trying to defend it. They will blame it on us they will say; ,·Bye, Stephenvi.l]e, she 1 s awful tip.:ht.' Somebody may look at them and say; :Well, funny, durinp: the election you knew of Stephenville, you announced it durim1 the election, how come you still mo.de the pronises?

It is not as if you were a government cominr: into office, it is not as if you were n new crowd that took over~ you had begn in off ice for a couple of months.' We will find out about the Port aux Basques water system. You know, thc1t is something that needs to be done. It greatly needs to be done, it should be done. ~'R. EVANS· ----~· It is p.:oinr: to be. I agree it is r:oing to he, but the ouestion is when and by whom and on what terms? ;'IP,. EV /IJ'-!S. , --------· This year. I hope so, this year. Is it poing to come out of the Sl million allocated for water and sewers?

Part of it will come from Ottaw:i under the DREE programme, purt of it may even come under the DREE Industrial grant, part of it will have to borne by the promise - borne by the province. It will not be borne by a promise, it may be borne by the province. AN PON. l'Et!JlER, (Innudiblc) }fR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman, it is a good question whether that goes ahead. AN HON. }-tf'.o.:~fllE?':;_ No question. ' Im •. ROBERTS: He will find out about the - well I hope there is no question. I dearly love it.

The one thing I regret ever in government 1 is that we beinf? the Province of Newfoundland cannot spend everythin~ that people want and need. The needs of this province are incredible. 1515

June 2. 1972, Tape 504, Page 6 -- npb The honourable, learned and f).C. temher from T'lacentiu East has needs in his constituency. He hns broug:ht in .a couple nf petitions and put them up on the table nnd supported theri. very we11 ' 1516

June 5, 1972 Tape 505 1 hope that work is done this year. 1 am reasonably sure it will not all be done. I hone some gets done. There is not a district in this province that docs not have needs except maybe St. John's West and I am not even sure about St. John 1 s Centre. T suppose there arc no roads needed in St. John 1 s Centre but there is housing needed, badly needed housinr:, HR .. _MURP1JX . ..:. The past twenty years. }!R_. __ Rg_~~~T_S: Of course, the p.1st 120 years. MR. EURPHY: No, twenty years. MR. ROBERTS: No, all of it dates fror:1 1949.

All evil, Mr. - We have a new theory, Sir, everythinr wns prosperity until 19!,9 and all evil Oates from 1949. That sounrls )2.00d. There will be a course on th:1t at university, ''NewfoumHand Folk I.ore and Myths.'' Nr. Speaker, the honourable rentlemnn's district has real needs and so does every part of Newfoundland. Carbonear hns needs, roads, hospitals. housinp:. Thev are not tming to get anything out of this Budget except for a hospital ;md we wUJ come hack to that. Rut, JM - l Sir. the phi lnsophy of th:i.s mlministwtion again has been hypocritical. They marie these pror:lises.

They went nround the province promising everythinr, they could think of - a T:1edical clinic in Terrenceville and all the other things, wonders were going to come to Fortune Bay. Too had the Minister of Highways is not here, he is 111 nlthotmh he is recovering and that is good, but he vent around in a government helicopter promising everything.

My frienrl from Eonavista North is not with us todav but down in Wesleyville one morning they look up and like an avenging an!!el the Tory candidate and the Minister of Highways land from the sky and they step out of the helicopter and there they are and like Moses striking his wand on the Red Sert the minister waved his hand and snid, ''There wi 11 be nuvement. 1' !Jell, they better look nt another miracle, Mr. Speaker~ They 1517

June 5, 1972 Tape 505 better look at the loaves and fishes if they are going to do that work with the $21. millions they are asking for this year and if Jtt - 2 we listen to the minister for next year there will be none or less. Old Jack the Ripper is at it again. I believe him. He will do it. I will give him credit for that. If he can get away with it, he will do it. He will do it. We will end up with a balanced Budget, Mr. Speaker. She will be balanced. As a matter of fact we may even have a few millions in the bank. It would be great. It would be iust great. Of course, we will not have anything else.

You cannot have it both ways~ Sir. During election we heard of promises and all we hear now is their crying "wolf" During the election, Mr. Speaker, they knew they were taking over Stephenville. The honourable the Premier and the honourable the Minister of Finance and I suppose the honourable gentleman for Port au Port went out on a stage in Stephenville and St. Stephens and said, "We will take it over," They did not tell us about the SS. million gift. We are still hearin~ about that. There wai; no talk then of belt-ti~hteninr,, Sir. Then it was milk and h::mey in the Promised Land.

There was not a district in the province where the Tory candidates did not make promises except Humber West. There was no need to make them there. ~_R. PE~JS!QR..Q_: And Green Bay. There were no promises made in Green Bay. Well, that is good because the honourable gentleman - MR. WILSON: None made in Port de Grave either. MR. ROBERTS: Now we are goini to hear, Sir. now we are going to hear and I hope the honourable gentleman's constituents - promise made in Port de Grave. There was one MR. WILSON: There was no promise made in Port de Grave. MR.

ROBERTS: There was one promise made in Port de Grave and it will be 1518

June 5, 1972 Tape 505 kept. The honourable gentleman should not hurry. He should not - ~-~-·-_\-JILSON: (T.naurlible). MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman should be quiet for a minute as I an trying to help him. There was n promise made and it will he kept. The promise was made of no hospital in Bay Roberts and that promise is being kept. That promise is beiniz - The Minister of Health nods, the :Minister of Finance nods, there will he no hospital. That promise was made. There will he no hospital here and that promise will be kept. A~ HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). JM - 3 MR.

ROBERTS: Well, it is a good thing~ Whether the people of Bay Roberts will consider a hospital in Carbonear or snhstitnte 1 but th.at is what they are getting. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). ?:ffi. ROR~RTS: Oh, I would not attempt to name anythin~ the honourable gentleman says. I know whnt promise he is r,oing to deliver on. AN HON. MEMBER: "Yeah." HR. ROBERTS: 0 Yeah. 11 Let him say "Yeah.n Let him say "Yeah.· 1 Now. Mr. Speaker, there is another two-sided, another part of this where it is like Janus they have two sides. Every day we ~et oetitions coming in this House.

We hear from members on the other side and we even hear from the member for Harbour Grace when he is not digging. He hear from him. He comes in and he presents his petitions and so he should, Sir, so he should. So he should~as that is one of his .iobs as a member. L'e hear of neglect over the years and members opposite. and menbers on this side can point to hundreds and thousands of things that are not done in Newfoundland that need to be done.

I could start in Raleirh in ~1hite Bay North rrnd go through all the corm:nmitics in White Rav North and work down probably the whole North East Coast and name thinp:s that need to be done, many of them. 1519

June 5, 1972 Tape 505 J}! - 4 rt·t:hat be neglect so it is neglect 1 as they have not been done. The fact is there. They need to be rlone. People want them. Petitions come in and yet the same time the Minister of Finnnce is up snying, "'You spent too much. You have spent too much. Cut her back. Rip her up," which he does, A.~ HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). ~~~ROBERTS: Oh yes, yes, we will go on that, yes. The honourable ,gentleman dug for months and he has found - Where is his evidence? Let him bring it out of the waste. A,);J HON. MEMBER: Whnt about the teletype machines? MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, what about the teletvpe machines with information about Newfoundland? What nbont the $15,000 a vear for the reporter who covered impartially the Premier's election campaign? That is a ~ood - A.~ JJON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). ~R_OBlcRTS : That is not bad. 1 remember the honourabJ e gentleman was here, hearing the eloquence with t..rhich he denounced the ''tulletin. Almost the tears would come to vour eyes. All HON. MF.MllF.R: $168,000, 11R,__R_CJ_BERTS: The $168,000. What is the $168, 000? AN HON. MEfIBER: The Bulletin. JiR. ROBERTS: The Bulletin, alright so that is gone now, that is cut, that is done.

I am not even complaining about that, it is done. It is not being spent. What about the $15,000 now for the chief press officer? What about all the other things, the teletypes? Not bad, not bad. What about flying newsmen in for the weekend and giving them receptions? I am all for that. I think the whole province should get in on that, 'lend a twin otter out to Deer Lake and load it up with the press, the West Coast, bring her in. That is the way, boys! Good stuff that. That is belt tightening. There will be a lot of belt 1520

June 5, 1972 Tape 505 tightening over that. more belts than belt tightcninp:. Mr. Spci1ker, the government cannot have it hoth ways. If they feel that the people of Newfoundland, the province cannot afford the level of expenditures that we have been having, they feel that and they quarrel with their conclusion, but I wilJ. not quarrel with their ri~ht to have that helief and have that feeling.But if they feel that, Sir, then let them live up to it, let them act lH:e it. Let us not have a pussy cat approach. Let us hnve a tiier approach. Cut her. bring her in nnd cut her.

Take the estinates and slash them but do not come in and tnU tough and then when the estimates are brought in the talking tough has become a powder puff. That is not what the peoole of Newfoundland sent this administration into office for. That is not what they arc looking for, that is not what they are holrlinr, them accountable for in a few years. They want to know what this crowd arc µ:oing to do for Newfoundland, Sir. They want to know what they are going to do about the commitments and promises. You know, are we really in the world, Sir, and to read the JM - 5 Budp.et Speech you would think so?

Are we really in the world where if we cannot run the hospitals for twelve months we wi]l shut them down in a month 0 ,tcn? I do not for a moment believe we are. The former Deputy Minister of Health, fir. M"illcr, one of the greatest public servants this provim:e has ever had, always said when estimates came along and the perennial word came down first from Sir Walter Marshall, when he was controller of financc,and laterally from Mr.

Dennis Groom and then frnn the Treasury Board which quite properly took over the function and the present Treasury Board Secretariate 1 of course, was built by the previous adninistration and the fine and capable crowd of puhlic servants they are;but the word would come down, the director would come down and cut the expenditures and Dr. Miller would say. 11Well, 1521

June 5, 1972 Tape 505 JM - 6 we will cut them but ever:-1 time the patients at the General Hospital will still get their meals. '' So they will, so they will. That is what happened to the minister. He set out with the best of intentions and ran in - He set out like a ti~er but he ran into the real ti~er in the Cabinet. Down last Thursday night and last Friday on the eighth floor, Sir, the meetings were held.

As a result we now hnve this new set of the estimates, a set essentially like any government would have hroui;;ht in except that if we hod cut the mothen' allowance. if we had heen so foolish as to do that,we would have put it back in education, would have used, something like the pupil-teacher ratio. 1522

June 5, 1972 PK - 1 HR. ROBERTS: That is fine. I ne.nn redirections within programmes are fine. But all tM.s is taken out of the pockets of the mothers of Newfoundland now. A twenty dollar bill ripped out of their pockets and nothing but hard words put in its place. Er. Speaker, the problems of budgeting are quite familiar to ray colleagues and me, we have heen through it. 1 think I know exactly what the Minister of Health went through this year with his estimates. I have been through it. So has the gentleman fror:i White Bay South, the gentleman from Fogo, the gentleman from Bell Island.

They have all been through the hud[;et. Tndeed. they have all served on Treasury Boards in the past. They know the sweat an<l the toil that goes into it. They know that it is really impossible, there is not enou7oh money to do everythinp, that should he done. They know it is a hard process of having to decide whnt you arc roing to do and hou much you are going to do. I think also I am prepared to admit that there are no magic ansuers. 1 have no magic solutions. If I were the premier of the province today, I uould not know how to find hundreds of millions of dollars.

I know if I were rremier the honourable rentleman would not be on my side of the i:ouse. T would not have him. I have p:ot taste if nothing else. Hr. Speaker, we are. familiar with this and I do not expect any mar.ic answers from anybody. I do not know how the hospitals are going to be run in five years, When John Honroe brings in this plan whereby he puts a ceiling on of a nine percent or a ten percent annual gross and our costs are going up from eleven percent to fifteen percent.

We had years in this province, Sir. when we tightened the helt and if the honourable gentleman thinks back to - he was then an administrator or whatever, he was running,in effect,the Carhonear Hospital, when we said a three percent raise and that was it. The hospitals told us, we cannot do it; our inevita1>1e cost increases are more than three percentdust to stand still they are more than three percent. 1523

June 5, 1972 Tape 500 PK - 2 1-'R. ROBERTS, Phat about all the new services we need? "What about all the new services? We said, sorry that is all the province can afford~ you will have to live with it. The hospitals did live with it. We are going to see more than that, Sir. I do not know the answers. I do not know the answers at all. Newfoundland must have public services. Newfoundland can only have them by borrow1.ng. I do not think the size of the deficit should be our concern. Indeed the statements in the budget on the debt are misleading.

They are truthful as far as they go, it is the minister's technique 1 hut they do not go very far. Let them point out that if we did not rather have BaY D'Espoir. It is a quarter of a hillion. The deht is Sl billion and some odd, $1000 million and whatever the fir;ure is. Then roughly $250 millions of that is for the Bay D'Espoir project and the related projects, the transmission lines. Another $20 million, $30 million or $40 million is for housing. Not a enough of it hut the housing down in the centre of St. John• s, a part of that is in the debt. A part of it is for hospitals. Not enough.

I agree not enough, A part of it is indirectl F.,P.A. is in there and the Stephenville Mill is now become a direct obligation. The Come-by-Chance project. Sure they are indirect obligations of the province, the Gome-by­ Chance has $30 millions direct. It is a crown company that has another $130 millions in it. It is not an obli~ation to the province,there is no guarantee to the province. You can decide for yourself, Mr. Speaker. whether the province would wish a crown corporation to default. But, Sir, those are self-liquidating. t think, perhaps we should get a breakdown of the debt.

Maybe the minister could bring one in, Sir, a table .. He has che officials down there to do it, t have not. A table showing how much has been spent over the years on hospitals and how much on roads and how much on water and sewer services and how much on housing. It might be very interesting. 1t might be a lot of things. 1524

June 5, 1972 Tape 506 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I agree not enough has been done. Every time a member opposite sayS "boy that is neglect, not done in twenty-three years.'' We will say, you fellows got a point, boy, it should have r>een done. Sure the road around the loop should have heen paved on the Burin Peninsula. Everybody is for that, So should the people on the Northern Peninsula 1 should have had pavement. Of course, they should. AN HON. HBmER: Inaudible, T:.!!t-· ROBERTS: No, I know, we are quite in aµ:reement on this. The problem is, where does the noney come from? And what do you use it for'?

When Jack the Ripper gets through, Sir, we balance. We will prohably balance our own capital account. We can see tt now a capital account expenditure of $18 million or whatever we can raise by appropriations-in-aid. Afi HON. ~f~ Inaudible. HR. ROBERTS; That is the honourable Minister of Provincial Affairs problem, the price of beer. There was a letter in the paper this morning, wan there not? Whoever Nr. Littlejohn is 1 he is obviously a beer drinker. AN IlON. ,~~ Inaudible. HR. ROBERTS: Oh, I am all for that. HR. HURPHY: Sure you are. HR. ROBERTS: If young people in Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, if young people in Newfoundland can vote at eighteen to send members to parliament and can vote at nineteen to send members to this House,,then T think they have got the majority. I think they have got the majority and the responsibility to decide whether or not they wish to take a drink. If the honourable gentleman disn2rees with me, I will gladly - ~RPEY: Inaudible. "l'R. ROBERTS! Nr. Spealter,•1ho has the house? Well, the honourable gentleman has the house &t Topsail Pond. hut who has the floor?

I said it and I helieve :it nnd my collear;ues believe it and we will see whether the government does or not, But if a younr:, let me repeat 1525

June 5, 1972 Tape 506 Pk~ 4 ~fR. ROBERTS: it, if a young person in this province at eighteen is able to go and fight for Queen and country and if he is able to vote for a member of parliament and at nineteen in this province if he is able to vote for the ;irovincial election to send all of us here and if he i~ able to vote for ~unicipal elections, town councils and city councils, Sir. I feel no re8:son why he cannot be given the right to decide for himself whether he wishes to drink or not. t will tell the honourable gentleman if that young man wants to drink, he does drink. He does drink now. Oh, but - MR.

MURPHY: Inaudible. ----- MR. R.QB!.RTS: If the honourable gentleman is against the youn1;er people, let him be. t do not think his colleagues will agree with it. MR. MURPHY: If the honourable member - MR. ROBERTS: I fully expect them, I fully expect them to brinr, legislation into this House. I hope they do. I will support it. AN PON. !-fEHBF'.R: Inaudible. HR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? AN HON. ~fHIBER: Inaudible. HR. ROBERTS: You need to lower it to eir;hteen not to nineteen - AN JION. MEMBER: Not to nineteen. MR. ROBERTS: That should be done by an Order-in-Council. He did not do it.

HR. }!URP!IY : Why? l~..:_ROBERTS,:_ Hhy? That is another story, we did not do it. MR. RO~ERTS_:_ I take the responsibility but would the honourable gentleman from Green Bay do it? Would he lower the age of majority in all purposes to the age of nineteen? AN HON. MEHBER: Inaudible. --- - ~NR. ROBERTS_:_ I cannot but I will have a word with the Premier tf it will help. I doubt if it will. Will the honourable r,entleinan do it? 1526

June 5, 1072 Tape 506 ~m. PFCKFORD; I will give it very serious consideration. '-fR. ROBFRT~~ Oh, oh. ve will have a task force. Let him make up his mind, Sir. All the honourable meml,ers opposite will have to. 1 know the '.'Hnister of Justice would like to do it. :"tR, HICK.HAN: To do what? PK - 5 MR. ROBERTS: To lower the age of najority to nineteen that can be done by order and then go further and make it eighteen. We will see what the cabinet will do, Sir.

We will see what the government do~ But if I am wrong the people of :Jewfoundland know how to make rue pay the price.but I will take the stand. 1 believe in it. If I am wrong, 1 am wrong, if I an not, so be it. It is not all guts. It is the matter of common sense. The honourable p,entleman is the one who talks like a tiger and acts like a pussy. f1R. CROSBIE: Meow! 11R. ROBERTS: The only thing is he is not very good at drinking milk. Mr. Speaker. ?-!R~NEARY_.: Cocktails. '~_B,9BERT~_ Naybe moose milk, hut not milk.

Now I see him out walking on the water at Hogan's Pond. boy, I look down from the house nnd sec hin out for a stroll of an evening, it is quite a sight. It is quite a sight. Inaudible. !·~ROBER'.l'l1-: No, I agree. No, I ar:ree. I agree. I agree. The Prenier would not even dream of doing it. But the Premier is vetj p.ood at pulling the plug. fHJ HON. Hf'..s'!,,fBER· Does he have a life jnc.ket on? HR. ROBERTS_~-- No 0 he does not hnve a life jacket, he does not know where the rocks are either, he just gets out and strolls. Mr.

Speaker, the budget paints a very bleak picture for the future of this province, if you take just what is in that document. It is hleak in philosophy, this,harren of ideas. I think the budget is a failure. It is a statement of a philosophy for this province. It is 1527

June 5, 1972 Tape 506 PK - 6 MR. ROBERTS: a statement of hypocrisy. It is not consistent with the estimates. It is not consistent with the actions of this administration. It is exactly what we expected from the present Minister of Finance. Exactly. T ·was not surprised at all when he brought it over to me a few minutes before he read it, about quarter of three he was good enough to br:i.ng- it into r:ie and I looked through it carefully. My only surprise was that the cuts were not bigger. the cuts were not greater. But then when Theard the story from - I started from people in the press,about the row on the eighth floor 1 about the fact that the Premier had 1528

June 2, 1972, Tnpe 507, Pq.;e l •··~ apb gotten back and had informed the Hinister of Finance of certain of the realities of life. That explained it and it made sense. I believe that story to be true, Sir, I say I do not know if it is true, but I believe it to be true. :Al!_I!SJN. PEVBER: (Inaudible) !fl< •. ROBERTS: Well, I do not disbelieve the hon. ;.;entlcrnan. AN HON. MEMBER: :fot a word of truth. I may add, 1 fully expected him to say that, he would have to say that. You are saying in effect that I am a liar. No, no •.. FR. S'f:..O_.?_BJJ':::..: There is not one word of truth in that. HP._ ROBERTS:. Hr.

SpeaYcr, I would not dream of callinr: the hon. ~entlcman a liar. AN __ HON._ MEFBER: When you are. I do not, Sir. l say it categorically, I do not dishelieve his statement. }JR_. _CROSBIE· Not an iota. HR. ROBERJ....§.2. I do not disbelieve his statement Heart to heart, lun~ to lung, brain to brain ... SO!fE HON. 1-1£1--ffiERS ~ (Inaudible) FT: .. P.OBERTS: I must say that is a little close, even for cabinet colleagues. I aluays thought the Premier had much better taste than th;,.t. AN HON.

HE!-IBER: Teach him how to walk on water. ~- '.ROBERTS: Who, the Premier teaching the minister or the minister teac 11ing the Premier? The Premier will teach the minister some lessons before we are through I !=an tell you. Mr. Speaker, let me take i1 look at one or two of the specific points raised by the minister further down in his speech. My collengues will be touching_ on these.Of course, when the estimates come 1529

June 2., 1972, T;1,pc 507. Parr.e 2 --- ap'r- un ve. vill hnv0 a chance to say a fee: well chosen words on each of tflcpi, particularly now that we ;,re voinr: into eveninp sesr;inns :rnd ,-:e will not even g:-ct the nice long sunT1c.r eveninrs to -· welJ, think about it. 1t is the hon. memher 1 s f ;-ml t. MR. ROBERTS· Yes, tTrtcrtk to vour !louse Lender. t-1r. Speaker. He is the fellow, the whip, tlw hard-hearted fellow. He is a worthy successor to Les Curtis, Sir. f-'r. Curti.s was House Leader for twenty or twenty-one years, thr mcrdicr for Twillingate. PR.

W.H.ROHE: A hen.rt of stone. .. ~- - -- ----- Boy, he had a henrt of stone. llis tinly iden was; !,:'ell we will tomorrow a£ ternoon.' 1-sir. it is Sa t11nlav.' ,-Hell, what nre you doing anyway. come on in.' The present House Leader, Sir, is like all House Leaders, you uill see hin over there and he fi<lp,ets and he says; Let us r,ive evervthing fair greetinr today. - It is endemic to House Leaders. The opposition, you knou, the hon. gent1ennn fidr-cts every time anybody gets up to spenk. On his side he can turn thrcn Pi rl, a look and shrivel them. ~~ - t1ARS!lALL • -·-- -- -~--,,--- (Inaudible) trR.

ROBERTS· So the hon. p:entleman should, so he should. But that is ----- ---- endemic to House Leaders, that is what we are used to. It will p;o on 1 we wilJ take our time, s.:.r. I suppose we will get her through by whatf HR. H.N.RotJE: I was counting on August 20th. You want it August 20th. eh? We p:et Regettn Day off though. Do we get Regetta Day, Mr. Speaker? :MR. ROBERTS: No? AN HON. HEMBER _,:_ Re.~ettn Day is only a holiday for St. John 1 s. Host of this government are from St. John's, hut if we do not ~et Regettn Day do we get Labour Day or i3 that a dav to labour? How about civic holiday?

All right, we r:et civJc holiday. 1531)

June. 2, 1972, Tape 507, Page 3 -- anb HON. },'.f.!1B:ER: (Inaudible) Yrys, I think we arc in labour listening to the hon. member. ROBERTS: I think that is very de.cent of the hon. gentlerr:nn. AN HON. HF.JfBER: (Inaudible) I have no hesitntion in recommending that any gentle-man opposite who want to take advantage of the hon.pentleman's services should do so. M~ lL0]1,!..l~!~PiffJ_·_ He is taking vour measure •.. J'>:f_._ ROBERTS;_ Hh.en the hon. r:entleman looks at an individual and says; How nrc. you feeling?'' He has mixed motives I can tell you.

It is like g:oinp: to n senator and saying: How are vou today senator?'' The senator clinp_s - hold on now, the flower of Flower's Hill~ the tulip from Topsail Pond. Ell!lY_ll__"-G_ (Inaudible) '.'!R. ROBERTS: What was that a~nin? HR. Hl!RT'HY: . -------•-'O•> I was talkinr to someone the other day and he said: How nre you? Not well I hope.; MR. ROHEP..TS: That could have been the hon. rcntlernan from Harbour C:race. 'How are you ff'.eling1'' •·11ell.; "Sorry to henr that.' 0r as mv colleap-ue says, He taJ,.es your measure.' But. he puts us all under in the loniz run. Nr.

Speaker, one of the points made by the minister was the De.vclopr:i.ent Corporation. He renffimcd, I think he said it previously on other public occnsions that this is goinr- ahead. All of us on this side welcome thnt, Sir. John Nolan worked verv hard to hrin~ this about while he was the Economic Development !!inister. I think if the present minister has the grace, which I somc.tirr:es think he has, I think he will say so. I am glad he is t?:kinr up the "-'Ork and carrying: it on and finishing it. I think it is a good suggestion, it is a !!Ood programme, it is a good initiative by the government.

We need small industry in 1531

June .:, 1972. Tnpe 507. Pap:e i+ ~,,. apb Nev-,~foundlo.nd and everybody savs we are poing to have it, everybody says we need it. Certainly I can name all sorts of sm,mdll .operators in my constituency nnd other sorts of projects all throuvhout the province that are lnoking to this developnent corporation an the he-all and the end~all. I hope it is, nt time I doubt if it Hill be. We will see what the Finance Hinister does. I cm glad he is p,:oinp: ahead ri.n<l we will have no difficulty at all. He will have great plcnsure in fact in votinp: for the expenditure involved.

I believe. that it is n couple of million dollars, and that brinr-s in twenty million dollars from Ottawa. It is a good progrmr,rne. He may want to talk a little to the minister about it, it will he interesting to hear if the directors, you know. what the proportion of directors are and that sort of thi.np. It would be what? Two ar,d two, two from the province and two fror-i Ottawa and the chairman was to be mutually agreed AN HON •• PE}f'BFR: Three ... HR.~ W.N.ROWJ:> Three from here. ~-:, }'.__O_~:ll.T.§.:" Three from here and two from Ottawa, and one of the five bein!! chairman is that it? MR.

ROWE, The chairman from here. --·~----· tLR~l:0,!lERTS_.:.. The chairman is to be a Newfoundlander. Hell, we will want to talk about that a little.We think it is a good programme. We are going to have a little !!Oat my relation in Health. There are one or two misstatements of fact in the Budget. I am sure the }iinister of Henlth will ar;ree that there nre.

I have looked through the correspondence, I have looked through the public announcements and the ~lini.ster of Finance is flatly incorrect, I will not say that he is lyinp~That ,muld require the intention and I do not think he has that intention, but he is flatly incorrect~ flatly wrong when he says that Ottawa ever prom:tsed to pay seventy-five percent of the Health Sciences Centre. 1532

.June 2, 1972, Tape 507 ~ Doq,,, 5 -·- apb The Ottawa Government, the Federal r,overnmcnt BRreed to pay up to S30 million, actually it is twenty-nine, point something, somethinr::, so:nething, up to SJO million provided that did n0t e-rcceed Beventy-five percent of the cost. Hell, Sir, obviousJv it will exceed seventy-five percent, thA estimated cost was $40 millions, there was a report which I think we got in late November, I filed a copy in my own files from the Scribner people, the estimated cost had p:one to $4.5.3 - thnt is the docunent that we now have here. It may well go hipher, Sir.

I see in the newspapers calls for tenders, I do not know whether they are coming in on estimate, below estimate, above estimate or t-rhat. AN HON. MEP.BER: On page (24) you will see •.• ~"'"P. ROBERTS: I am looking at page (24), it is the strawman thinr::. The minister says; "One: of the main arguments of the proponents of the 'assemblar:e of the Health Sciences Cornple:;c at Memorial uas that, seventy-five percent, but he does not quote any authority for this. I have looi:ed throur:h the stateVients I made, I looked through the statenents }fr.

Hunro made, I h.::we looked through the corresnondence between the Govern~ent of this Province and the Government of Cnnada and I 1533

June 5, 1972 Tape SOR find no commitment by anybody and no staten;ent by ,:mybody thnt Ottmm would pay 75 per cent. Th.:m1 Hr. Speaker 1 the minister constructed his whole argument on a. fallacious ground, I know what he did, Sir. >ie snt down and he said how can I nail Roberts? And that should not be very hard for them. That should not be nny hard at all. I can find all sorts of things he can nail me on, Hhen the investlgatinr minister turns to it, I can give them lots of fertile subjects. It would be fun" But all he can find is this quite picayune attack on me founded on n fallacy I as he. now admits. Now.

Sir, in addition the minister goes on and he castigates the Government of Canada for their refusal to lift thnt $37 ,000/100 crd.lin~. 1 think he is right. That ceiling has been in effect certainiy from the time the hon. member from Burin was llenlth Minister. lt wns in effect at that time. I do not know if it was in effect when the hon. gentle :m. the present Finance Minister was Health Minister or not.

But I am not sure if castigating the Government of Canada Budget Speech is going to rln very much to raise that ceiling. 1t is up co the Finance Minister in Ottawa to allow the Health Department in Ottawa to spend more thun $37,000,000 a year out of the Health resources fund. The thing that disturbs me though, Sir, is the Government, the niinister in his speech attacks the whole idea of the complex and indeed he says th,1t they would cancel it if they could. He says they cnnnot and it is with regret and petulance that he says so. But he does not propose any alternatives.

He does not face the facts that are relevant to the situation, We can debate it at any length we want. We had a go at it last year on Estimates. We cnn have a go this year. Just briefly, Mr. Speaker, the facts that the minister does not point out 1include such things as the fact that the present General Hospital is not adequate and can no longer carry on for even a short period as a general hospital, unless there is spent on it between twelve nnd fifteen million. The report is down in the Department of Health and indeed I 1534

June. 5, 1972 Tape 508 NR - 2 helieve it was commissioned by the present Finance Minister when he was ~linister of Health. The Bon.rd of the hospital certainly feel that way. I may add the officials in Health 7 that is the advice I received at the time, I do not know if they changed their views nt all. The fact remains, Sir, unless the Government of the Province are prepared to expend an estimated twelve to fifteen millions, and we see estimates go hi;~her, an estimated forty millions i!'l now hecome forty-five.

Unless the Government of this Province are prepared to spend twelve to fifteen millions on that hospital, it must cease within a very short period of yenrs to be used as an active treatment, acute care. The mini.ster and I agree on the point,! tnke it? DR. A.T. ROWE: It is one decision or the other - MR. ROBERTS: Right! We took the decision. I think it is the right decision. That is all I am saying. Hut the Minister of Finance was con­ ~istently opposing that over the years. When he was on this side he opposed it. I can find for the Health !'finister the - A~ HO:l. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Smallwood~ Mr. Speaker~ was the Premier of the cabinet that went ahead with this progrJmme. When it comes to knuckles heini rubbed the present Finance Minister should know about that. A.~ HON. !/!EMBER: It took him a weekend to recover. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, Hr. Speaker, ;::md for that I give thanks. I would rather he was there than here. The only political nightmare I have is that at some point when the hon. gentleman leaves the present ship is that he would reapply for admission on this one. Sir, I think we will just have to put up the raft guards, you know. AN HOH. MEMBER: Move over here by me.

HR ~]lQ_l}ERTS: Do not ask him over here. He got enough trouble without­ leave him over there. The last thing we will ever want. He will either lead a party or he will wreck it, He has done it to two. on his third. 1535 He is now working

June 5, 1972 Tape 508 NB - 3 HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Noi-,.;,Mr. Speaker Inaud-Lble MR!._J\_OBERTS: Right! Right! If I had not trusted Bill Saunders too. That was a mistake I made, I wonder what wee. William is petting out of il. I do not know. Maybe nothing. llc is not getting bis House pny. The minister told us that. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. HR. ROBERTS: No, is he still on the Power Comn:ission? 1 do not know. Is he still on the Power Commission? YOur the Minister, the hon. r,entlcman is the 1vanister of Economic Development. He is responsible. 1s he still on the Power Commission? AN HON.

MEMBER: He said that three times. }1R. ROBERTS: Would the hon, g:entlenen perhaps check for us and let us know when his estimates come up? I do not know, '1aybc. '-1r. Sounders would tell you. I am prepared to believe he was. I only knot,; what he told me on day one and what he did on day two, MR. -~CRf?}iBIE: What he <l.id on day one and what he told you on day one HR. ROBERTS: Th.:it is right, the resignation was on 'fonday nnd I saw him on Tuesday. HR ,__gWSBIE: - you arc> old buddies. !•m .__R,Q_BJ£_RTS: ~1r. Shea rmd Hr.

Burgess will answer for what they did or did not do. 1 think they have answered. t th:lnk they have. I really think they have. A:'1 l!.O:I . __ .;"fflIT3ER: Inaudible HR. ~OBLRTS: Thnt is t:bat the '.'Uniste.r of Justice is hoping will happen in Newfoundland. Well, Mr. Speaker, there are very few independent:; in Newfoundland politics. Hut that is whnt he is hoping for~ t!12 Premier wlll slip a coin and the loser will have to take the Joh. 1536

June 5, 1972 Tape 508 NB - 4 Hr. Speaker, to come back to the Medical School, I am glad the Medical School and the nev hospital - glad the Health :'1inister agrees with my statement. The Minister of Finance in his Iludget neglected to point out these very relevant facts and that is all that I am saying. What I am sayinp; is that the minister set out to don hatchet job and he selected the facts that pleased him and the facts that suited his case and the rest he d:i.d not even mention.

The ~iinister nf fin:mce is as aware as am I or as the present ~-rinister of Eealth is ahout the fact that either the General needs n lot of money spent on it or a nei:,J hospital is built. A.}.J HQ:."'J. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS:The Minister of Finance knew that yet ln his Budr;et he - all I am saying, I am not talking about Health, I am talkinr tlbout the Budget. I am talking about the Budget when it commentr; on this particular project. All that I am sayinp is that the Minister of Finance is trying to present a distorted picture.

He de1ibertly selects the things which are favourable to his case and makes no effort to present a fair case. That is all I am saying. I do not need to say nny more. The merit of my arguments have been proven by the Minister of Health himself - by his own collenp;ue. That is all that I am saying. I am in complete agreement. If I never achieve anything more in public life, if I go out of public life tomorrow or if I drop dead tonight. AH BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. !'tR.

ROBERTS: The gentleman can hope if he wants, But if I never do anything r.i.ore, if I have forty years of life left ahead of me and I am in retirement or I am practicing law, whatever happens tone, the previous leaders of the P.C. party might have all sorts of places, I will be proud of that Health Scientist Conplex and the small

part I had in it. I -;.;111 be very proud. I think any health minister who can become involved in it should be. I am sure the present minister will be proud he had a hand in it. A.'-1 11m1. MEMBER: Inaudible. 1537

June 5, 1972 Tnpc 508 ;rn - 5 Right; That centre, that project is an essential step forward. All I am sa::ing .is that the present Finance '-'inister who knows better, he was once Health >linistcr. I. have driven hl.s hlood pressure up, or is this fn.rmicare.? Do we have a farnicare prop,ra::nnc nm:? ?lentally or physically? >~r. Spe:ikcr, I think the ;Hn:!ster of Finance owes the people of th.is province an expl:mation for his tactics in this case.

He hns only selected - now there is nnothcr example ln here. lie tnHs nt some length abnut the co;;ts of the new F:eneral hospital and the costs of the present general heing operated as a convalescent unit. llis fir,ures I have no douht are correct or no doubt they are the estimates r,iven by the ;:,,dvisers and 80 on. That is fine. But be tries to make it nppenr that these are new costs. liow that is not so It is not so. The present General Hosuital is costing six mill i.on or seven mil.lion dollars a year. I do not know what the figures are but the ninistcr hopefully will have the information nvailab.Le.

He will be asking. It is of the order of six million or seven million dollars to operate the present General Hospital. A teaching hospital is going to be more expensive~ and it will be a teaching facility. The minister neglected to point that out. Anybody rendinr; the budget speech would somehow p,et the impression that it would go to fourteen million or fifteen million dollars a yenr extra cost. ;'\Ot so. Oh, the minister can shake his hend. Ile did :i.t deliberately and knowingly. No it is not a devious plot, it ls n perfectly ohvious plot, It is a perfectly obvious plot.

Figures arc very funny. l·;'hen the honourable gentleman was on this si.de, everything he said was almighty wisdom.How all of a sudden, anything that is said from this side is silly I you know. I wonder. The only thing that has changed is that he has moved over. Talking of silliness, the honourable gentleman from Green Bay is fast becoming the House exr,ert on that. That is not the way to get in th~ cabinet. 1538

June 5, 1972 Tape 508 NB - 6 AN HON. MEMBER: Fourth-tier. MR. ROBERTS: No, he is not fourth, unless it is tear, that sort of tier maybe. 1539

June 5, 1972 Tape no. 509 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Roberts. Mr. Speaker, there is one other item in the Health Estimntes that I want to touch upon briefly. The budget came in on May 31. That morning or the morning after the 0 Daily Newsif there was a report of the Newfoundland Medical Association, one of their committees, a request for the sped al probe to be sought on mental health care. The report goes on . Apparently this request had already been made to the Minister of Health, so the item says. Mr.

Speaker, there are three former Ministers of Health in this House now: the present Justice Minister; the present Finance Minister and myself. Of course, there is the present Health Minister. l think all of us would agree with the one item which must have priority in the health service of this province now is the whole field of psychiatric care. If somebody wants to make a smart crack, let him go ahead. That is the sort of a line that leads to smart cracks.

I think anybody who knows anything about health services in this province will advocate strongly and as forcibly as they can the expenditure of additional monies on our mental health services. That must include the addition of the Mental Hospital. I can say before any one else says it but for twenty-three years, twenty-two years or tventy-one whatever it was, it was done. The last extension I believe was finished ( I do not know if it was started by Commission of Government. It may have been) by the Liberal Administration in the early years of Confederation, 1949, 1950 and 1951.

I am not speaking now in any partisan sense. I think if the government should .reconsider this - they brought in a deficit of $138,693,500 on capital account. I do not know what would be needed on the Mental Hospital this year. Perhaps $1 million or maybe $2 million will be needed. The estimate I had was $2 million to complete the whole thing, just the beds. All the other facilities, the expensive things, the X-rays, the labs, the dietary, the laundry facilities are all adequate. The present plant, as I understand it, is adequate for the additional beds. All you got to do is build bed space.

You are talking of maybe$ 15.00 or $20~00 1540

June 5, 1972 Tape no. 509 Page 2 Mr~ Roberts a square foot, Sir. For $1 million or $2 million, those additional beds could be put into operation. I would ask the Premier - I am not speaking politically or partisan. I am not making political speeches on this subject. I would ask the Premier to reconsider this. I think the minister and indeed I heard him on the television the other night - he was speaking at the Public Health Association. He made some remat'ks. He indicated that he personally thought this should go ahead. I think it should.

I do not know whether a couple of millions can be shaved off the other General Hospital project in the province, the acute care hospitals. Maybe it can and maybe it cannot. But an extra $2 million or whatever it would cost - I do not know if one would need $2 million this year,Mr. Speaker. I do not know what could be spent. I do not know how far the architects are. I do not know if they are ready to call tenders or not. If one project in this province should go ahead, Sir, if there is one project that the people of this province need this year - let the smirk of that gentleman, if that is the word, from St.

John's North - it is not a matter for smirking. Let him smirk if he wishes. I am being perfectly serious Mr. Speaker. MR. CAR~ER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: What is the point of order Mr. Speaker? MR. CARTER: The amount of abuse we have to put up with in this honourable House is probably fair enough, I can put up with the hon, Leader of the Opposition being abusive but one cannot put up with him being tedious. J:IR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, what is the point of order? I said that the honourable gentleman was smirking and he was. MR. CARTER: Listening: MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I do not care if he was listening or not, that is his problem but he was smirking. That is all I said. I am being perfectly serious about a problem that has nothing to do with politics. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) 1541

June 5, 1972 Tape no. 509 Page 3 _MR. ROBERTS: InJcUd I would have gone further. I think it should be a priority, not a next order. AN HON. MEHBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: I know. That is fine. I heard the minister on one occasion. I had not heard the other. My o-,,rn sources of information on the Corner Brook meeting are in San Franciso. They are in Montreal on their way to San Franciso. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier to have another look at this one with the cabinet, It is not a lot of money. I know $2 million is a lot of dollar bills to have piled on a table.

It is not a lot of money when you look at the overall expenditures of this province. We are spending nearly $600 million this year. Yes, it is nearly $600 million this vear. Being spent is $589 million which is provided for in these estimates. If the government 1 s credit is as good as they tell us it is, then I think they could find an extra $1 million or $2 million. Let it be the next order of priority. Let the next order of priority go ahead right away. If they cannot find additional money on the current account side, Sir, then that I can regret.

I think if I had stayed in the department I would have made some changes to free some funds for current account. I can understand the sorts of pressures that do exist. I think if the minister had been there a year or two he, perhaps, might feel the way I do that there are some things within the Health Department that could be changed and should be changed. That is another story. I am talking about capital account, Sir.

I am talking about what I believe to be the greatest single need still in health in this province today and that is at least for adequate. at least potentially adequate physical facilities for the treatment of psychiatric illness. We do not have them now. The stories I have heard of the Hospital for Mental and Nervous Diseases - they have a magnificient staff, Sir. They have their hearts taken out of them. The guts are taken out. They are heartbroken over this. They do not blame the minister. They realize that he was out-voted or out-weighed or whatever the phrase is.

They are doing a magnificient job, Sir, with the facilities which are inadequate 1542

June 5, 1972 Tape no. 509 Page 4 Mr. Roberts by any description. Parts of that building are over one hundred years old. Parts of it are - 1 do not know if any of the honourable rotarians have ever been involved, some of the rotary groups. Do the Husky Boys Group have anything to do with it? &'I HON. MEMBER: Caribous. MR, ROBERTS: Caribous. Any people who have seen anything at all of the hospital can only marvel at how so much has been done with so little, nothing to do with politics.

Whatever goes ahead or whether we go ahead with this or that or something else, I do think that that is something that should be done and I ask the government to have a look at it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I could not agree more, Sir. It has been evident for a long time and I think I can claim that I was the first Health MiniBter ever to do anything about it. I got it to the stage where the government in principle had agreed and where the plans are been drawn up. 'l'hen I left office ,Mr.

Speaker,with the administration and the new administration came in and now the first chance they get, the project is on the carpet, axed, gone, dead. I suspect that the truth of it is - Dr. Miller used to say and publicly that there are no votes at the Mental Hospital.I suspect that that is too true. I suspect that that is why it was cut. AN HON. MEMBER: A very terrible statement. MR. ROBERTS: Well Dr. Miller used to say it, Sir. He believed it. I believe it. I have been part of the government. I have been part of the cabinet. I know the way cabinet sometimes think.

All I can say is if there is one thing the government should do this year, they should do that. Tney should do the extension to the Mental Hospital. They should go ahead. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance on page twenty-three of his diatribe talks about the fact that in the next few years we are going to have 1543

June 6, 1972 Tape no. 509 Page 5 Mr. Roberts to spend a lot of money on capital health facilities. The figure he gives is $88 million. Again he is being inaccurate because he is lumping in all of St. Clare's, a table from 1972 to 1976, when St. Clare's expenditures began i.n 1970-1971 and were very heavy in those years. He complains that this puts a burden on the province. Well it does, Sir. We need the facilities but they are going to be expensive. They are going to be expensive to run. I do not quarrel with that.

What I do quarrel with is his statement that the programme should have commenced in 1967 and carried out over a longer period of time. That statement 1 find very interesting, Sir. I find it very interesting. When I look at who was Minister of Health from September, 1967 to May1 1968 and who was 1544

June 5~ 1972 Tape 510 JM ~ 1 MR. R()BERTS: a!llr·then Wh-en I Und out who was Minister of Health from May of 1968 until June of 1969. Tt is true that architects were appointed for Carbonear and for TwHl:i.ngate although the Twillinn:ate hospital as it was desivned was a different one than the one we now have. The plans for Carhonear were about one-third done when I hecame Health Minister, a year and a bit after the honourable gentleman left office. But, Sir, there was no plan prepared by either of those two gentlemen, there wan no effort made at planning. I have been through the files.

He talks now about the need for plans but, Sir, when he was there there was no planning. There was no effort at planninr;. MR. CROSBIE: Bunk. }ffi, ROBERTS: He can say 11 bunk · if he wants and he can say ''tripe'' hut calling something iobunk'' ancl calling something "tripen does not make it so. The honourable gentleman is now so pure and holy well let him answer for what he did or did not do and the Minister of Justice who was Health Minister for a little over a year put no nlans afoot either. There was a meaninr,less statement about plan ..

D at Western Memorial and the honourable ~inister's brother who was and for all I know still is chief of staff at Western Memorial can wax eloquently and bitterly on that and so can I. When I became min1ster in June of 19!19, Sir, there were no plans for the development of the capital facilities in this province, none at all. AN HON. MEMBER: Like hell there were not. There were not. There were some architectural plans started for Carbonear and there has been $20,000 or $30,000 worth of work done on Twillingate. AN HON. MEMBER: Why were the Carbonear plans stopped anyway? MR.

ROBERT~': Because I went to Cabinet and I said, "Freeze everything until we can find out what we are doing, until we can p-et an overall

June 5, 1972 Tape 510 plan.,. I took the responsibility for that. I met with the board in Carbonear. I made no secret of the fact anii 1 think the honourable gentleman was there as medical director involved at the hospital. ! took the responsibility for it. I was 11 nart of the government but T was the minister. We deferred it, deferred all capital expenditures JM in the health field unttl we developed a plan. The plan was developed and authorized by the Cabinet in the fall of 1970. lt is a long paper. Oh, it is fifteen or twenty pages, I guess.

A long, it is a good paper if the honourable gentlen.:m wants to rend it. It is a little out-of-date now as that was two years ago but it was a good paper. AN l,ION. -MEMBER: A white paper. MR. ROBERTS: No, it was not a white paper. Hbite papers arc like four yenr plans. !c'1 _H~~. MEMBER: (Innudible) • . MR. ROBER~S: Now. Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. Would the honourable gentleman not use "you.'' J!e keeps being sanctimonious with us. I was going to hring in a white paper but I never did. That is true and I would think in a couple of years we will hear a lot about/four vear i plnns too.

I decided better not to have a white paper :f.tlstead to p.o ahead on a series of developments and that is what happened. But that paper, the cabinet paper that was prepared by a group of people nf whom I was one is still a ~ood statement. It is a couple of years out-of­ date and it may need to be updated. Hhen the Minister of Finance comes in with his half-truth.s and his insinuations and his inferences, let him answer to the fact there was no overall planning done when he was Minister of Health or for a year thereafter. He was out of it. He was out of the government.

While the present Minister of Justice was the Minister of Health there was no planning done~ There was no attempt to develop nn overall plan when I went into that department in June of .1969. The 1546 7

June 5, 1972 Tape 510 plans were prepared in - The government - MR,_ll_ICKHAN,: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Spe.aker, I an modest about the things I must be nodest about. I am very r::odest about the things T should be modest ahout but I had failures in the Department of Health, of course I did and so will any minister in any department. No minister will achieve everything he sets out to do. I submit no Premier will achieve everything he sets out to do. MR. Jl~f,l'fA.~: No planning, nothing. MR.

RORERTS: No, the honourable p;entleman says no planning and I think he may even believe it but there was certainly no plnnnin~ in his time. I see the honourable member for St. John 1 s East shaking JH - 3 his head. The honourable gentleman is not even on the planning committee. He has no role in this. He is not even on the sub-cor.nnittec. He is not on any committee. All he <loes is he poes to cabinet, I assume. I mean that is what he is being paid $5,000 or $6,000 a year for. MR. CROSBIE: There is only one plan - MR. ROBERTS: Just listen to them over.

You kno~. the arrogance of Jack the Ripper, you know you would not believe it. Mr. Speaker, let me touch briefly on a subject that is bound to Aet the Minister of Finance into it again. There is no way he can sit through the next three or four minutes without a comment. He better take one of his tranquilizer pills because I want to touch on. his references to the Social Services and Rehabilation Department. HR. CROSBIE: Yes. do that. MR. ROBERTS: You see I won my bet, Hr. Speaker. He just cannot control himself as a matter of fact nobody else can control him as the Premier will agree.

MIL CROSBIE: (Inaudible). !-!R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. the honourable gentleman's lips may move but 1547

June 5, 1972 Tnpc 510 JM - 4 his mind is what t-mrr:ies me. I would like to know whether that moves or not. No"W", Mr. Speaker, let us talk about the social services and rehabilitation thing. There were some very serious accusations ma<le here against my friend from Bell Island not of anything personal but what amount to accusntions of nalarlmini.stration. My colleague has already said public.lv that if anybody on this other side feel for a moment there is anythinf; wrong or imnroncr let them carrv out the investigations and Linc.

Let him answer for what he has done nr not done and I think he feels he hfls nothinr. to answer for that is in any way improper or wronr:. Let ne repeat that. If there is anything that is wrong, any of these nasty insinuations let them investipace and we will see. I do not think the honourable gentleman need worrv about the reactions of his constituents by being the lone survivor south of Bonavista or south of Bonavista North. He has shotm that he has their support and confidence. But, Mr.

Speaker, let the admin!.strntion also. my colleague will deal with this at lenr,th, let them also bring out the facts as to why this expenditure increased. The. houses that h.:we been purchased under the Atlantic Development Board Programme from people who had left Bell Island nnd were fixed up with this vote. Again we see the half­ truths. This administration, Sir, is becoming a master of the half­ truth. The statement as it stands is correct. There is nothing incorrect ahout it but it is only half the story, it is half-true. It leaves insinuations. It leaves inferences. It is a dirty, despicable trick.

It is done deliberately, Sir. It is done with the intention of leaving a wrong impression. These are serious charges to make, Sir, but it is done. Maybe it is the trick of the advocate. Maybe it is the trick of a lawyer in court making a case who is paid to represent a client and that is his job to represent the client but,

June 5, 1972 Tape 510 JM - 5 Sir, the Minister of Finance of this province is not an advocate. The Minister of Finance