Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, APRIL 30, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 59

April 30, 1974, Tape 1402, Page 1 -- RH The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Afternoon I would like to welcome to the galleries today, from the Eugene Vaters Academy here in St. John's, fifty-nine grave V student_s,with their teachers,Mr. Stringer, Mrs. Sparkes and Mrs. Noel. On behalf of all the honourable members I certainly welcome you to these galleries today and trust that your visit here- is most interesting. ·NOTICE OF MOTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Constabulary (Pensions) Act." On behalf of the honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act." MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Finance. :.JION. J.C. CROSBIE: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Civil Service Act." MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister without Portfolio. HON. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have

an act that the opposition have been waiting for for twenty-five years. I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Tenders For Public Work." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS TO WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. HON. W. DOODY: These are the answers to questions that were asked by the member for White Bay South on April 18, questions 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 and 20, all very interesting and very comprehensive but I will table them. I do not think he really wants to be bothered with the details. 4692

April 30,. 1974, Tape 1402, Page 2 -- RH Afternoon ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island: MR. S.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Hon. the Premier. I would like to ask the Premier to elaborate on the public statements that have been made concerning the effect of the zooming increase on interest rates and on the escalating costs of developing the Lower Churchill. Is this going to have any bearing on the development this year or next year? What will be the effects of these increases in costs? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier: HON, F.D.MOORF.S: Mr. Speaker, I think probably the honourable Member for Bell Island is referring to an

article in the "Evening Telegram" quoting the honourable Minister of DREE in Ottawa and also a comment published in the "Daily News" this morning by the Minister of Mines and Energy of this government. The situation, Mr. Speaker, is that the interest rates as every­ body knows are escalating for any type of borrowing in the bond market or in any other market. That will mean in essence that there will be some escalation in the Lower Churchill development but nothing like what was quoted in the paper which I think by the way was an erroneous quote on behalf of Mr. Jamieson.

I think it is very fair to"say that, and that is the way it should be put •. The fact is that these figures are being worked on daily. It is the government's intention, Mr. Speaker, to proceed with this pro­ ject until it is proven absolutely not feasible. It is a long way from being in that condition. It is our intention to bring the power of the Lower Churchill River to the province because in the long term ~ this province cannot live without it. It is our intention to bring it here to attract industry to the province and to provide reasonable electrical rates and stability to the people of the province.

The principle that we have adapted of bringing that power to the province has not changed. The misquotes, if you like, in the paper most certainly I know as far as the Minister of Mines and Energy is 469;.l '

April 30, 1974, Tape 1402, Page 3 -- RH Afternoon concerned, are not relevant at this time. We hope within another week or two to have a much more definite position on the development of the Lower Churchill and what the time

schedule will be. MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the seriousness of these statements that have been made, would the Premier indicate to the House if he has held any discussions with Mr. Jamieson concerning these statements that he made? MR. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I spent four hours with Mr. Jamieson early on Sunday morning and also we have been in touch regarding follow­ up meetings in Ottawa, regarding follow-up meetings with our own people, As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, later on this afternoon we will be having a meeting regarding this very subject and it has been continuously pursued by the government, MR. W.ROWE: If I may ask a supplementary on this, I do not know if my colleague picked it up or not, I believe the import of my colleague's question was had he met with Mr, Jamieson since these allegedly erroneous statements were made by Mr. Jamieson, $500 million estimation. MR. MOORES: Since the interview was given by Mr. Jamieson, the answer is yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. E.ROBERTS: Since it was published? MR. MOORES: Not since it was published, since he made the statement.

MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, a fu~ther supplementary. We want to be very clear because the "Telegram" had - are we to understand that Mr. Jamieson was misquoted? That the escalation in cost,whatever it may be, that Mr. Jamieson did not say as he is quoted here; that it will cost at least $500 million more than the current provincial estimate? MR. MOORES: Only Mr. Jamieson can answer that absolutely, Mr. Speaker. I had a long talk with him about the interview that he had and Mr.

Jamieson as I understand it and he can correct me if I be wrong here, said that there would be an increase over the $500 million, not that it would be $500 million more. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the Premier but just to clear up the last loose end on it - I will put it ·as a question - Has the Premier spoken with 4694

April 30; 1974, Tape 1402, Page 4 -- RH Afternoon Mr, Jamieson on this point since yesterday when this thing _became public? MR. MOORES: I have not spoken with Mr. Jamieson since it came in the paper but I spoke with Mr. Jamieson after he gave the interview, Mr. Speaker. The fact is, as I have said, what is being printed here in the paper and by the way, for the record, Mr. Jamieson has no idea of what this will cost at the present bond rates because those figures have not been worked out by ourselves, by the consultants nor the federal government. This is an

interpretation at this time and as I say it is still our intention and of course it is our intention to carry on as was announced previously. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Mr, Speaker, on the same subject. The Premier, I understood him to say that Mr. Jamieson had no idea of what it would cost and because the government, among others, had no idea of what it would cost. how then can the Premier tell us on what basis the feasibility studies are drawn? MR. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

That is a ludicrous question because it makes a ludicrous assumption that we did not know what the assumed cost would be in the feasibility studies. The feasibility study was done at a certain rate of interest. The rate of interest now is one per cent to two per cent higher. One per cPnt to two per cent higher in the rate of interest does not mean a $5.00 million increase on a $500 million project. The actual cash flow of the project, the actual financing costing over various term bonds is now being worked out and this when it is available and once it has been determined is what we will be dealing with. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier undertake to make1,ublic the feasibility studies so that the people of Newfoundland could have some idea? We do not want any confidential information but there is nothing confidential that I can see about these feasibility studies. Would he undertake to make them public so that the people of this province would have some idea of how these arithemetical calculations are being arrived at? 469~

' , April 30, 1974, Tape 1402, Page 5 -- RH Afternoon MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, we have had these studies for quite some time. We have not held on to them closely, in any great confidential manner. As a matter of fact we have passed them on to these people who have been interested and that includes a great many people in industry and in other areas that could have some bearing on it, At the present moment, to make them available publicly_ (They are about "yea" thick) I do not really see the need for it.

The fact that they are not confidential would mean I am sure that we would be only too glad to give one to the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Well; that would for the time being satisfy us, MR. MOORES: They are not confidential. MR. ROBERTS: If they are not confidential, I do not know what publicly but if they have been put around widely to industry and so forth, I was not aware of that. Certainly we would like to have a copy. Would the Premier undertake to make one available to us for use and so forth? MR. MOORES: As I say, there are no confidential sections to it~ Mr. Speaker, gladly. MR.

NEARY: The report will not be censored. MR. MOORES: There is not a thing for the honourable gentleman to leak this week. MR. NEARY: I hear I was not very popular in cabinet last week. AN HON. MEMBER: Why only last week? MR. NEARY: I am talking to the honourable - look, I am talking to the real Premier, not the acting Premier. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR, NEARY: I would like to ask the Premier a supplementary question concerning the development of the Lower Churchill.

Would the Premier indicate to the House if there are any negotiations going on now, either by the government itself or by an agency of the government or by anybody representing the government with potential customers for power from the Lower Churchill? MR. MOORES: The answer is yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the Premier indicate with whom these negotiations are being carried on and 4690

April 30, 1974, Tape 1402, Page 6 -- RH Afternoon by whom? MR. MOORES: The answer is no. Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier indicate then if the government are carrying on the negotiations themselves or is it the Power Commission or is it some agent appointed by the government? MR. MOORES: All three, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, would the Premier indicate to the House who the agent of the government is? Is it BRINCO? Is it some other agent? MR. MOORES: As a matter of fact there are two or three, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, would the Premier care to tell the House and the people of Newfoundland who they are? MR. MOORES: No, Mr. Speaker. HR. NEARY: My God! I am telling you! I see I have to get a leak somewhere over there to get the information, I am not going to get it out of the Premier. Would the Premier indicate then, in his opinion and the opinion of the government, how much of this power will be sent up to Quebec or how much does the government intend to bring to the Island of Newfoundland? Will there be customers on the island for it? HR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, it will depend, of course, what size the customers are on the island. It is our intention to bring as much as possible and hopefully all of the power to the island as quickly as possible. 469-/

,r April 30, 1974 (Afternoon) Tape 1403 NM-1 MR WM. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Would the Minister of Justice care to give the House a report on any investigation that may have been conducted into the unfortunate death of some gentleman, I believe in the last day or two, in Iler Majesty's Lockup in the City? MR HICKMAN: I cannot report now. MR ROWE: Does the honourable minister know anything about it or not? MR HICKMAN: I just got back in town a few minutes ago. I was unaware of it but I will find out.

MR ROWE: Did he know that a man died in the jail down there? This is incredible. Is the minister now aware that a man for no known reason - there may be a perfectly valid reason - died in the jail? MR ROBERTS: There has to be a reason. MR WM. ROWE: What I mean is no public reason, no foul play nor anything like that is suspected. Is the minister not even aware of this? MR HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, may I repeat that I just got back to the city from Fortune. MR ROWE: Fortune does not have any radios nor anything?

MR HICKMAN: Well if they did I certainly did not have them on, I have been driving all morning and I have not been made aware of it. If a death occurred in a cell there will be, as there always is, a magisterial enquiry. MR NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister care to indicate to the House whether or not there will be a magisterial enquiry into a death recently on one of the coastal boats, the death of a ge~tleman being carried on the coastal boat to the hospital in Burgeo? Now that is practically in the minister's own district. It is all on the South Coast, He must surely know about that one. MR HICKMAN: MR.

Speaker. there will be a magisterial enquiry into any death as there always is into deaths that do not arise out of natural causes; and that depends to an extent upon the death certificate that is signed by the attending physician. 4698

April 30, 1974 Tape 1403 NM -2 MR WM. ROWE: Or whether there is a physician. MR HICKMAN: Or if there were not a physician there will be an enquiry. When this House comes to my estimates he will note that the old practice, the very wasteful and not effective practice of having to have autopsies simply because there was not an attendi,ng physician hopefully will now be changed with the medical examiner system that we propose. MR NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, would the minister assure the House, because I am afraid that this one may escape the attention of the minister's department, that there will he an enquiry into this death on the coastal boat? MR HICKMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR NEARY: Would he assure the House. MR HICKMAN: Yes. MR NEARY: Good: Okay: Fine: Thank you: ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, before we move into committee I wish to make a motion under Standing Order 23: With that I know Your Honour is familiar: I ask leave, Sir. under the provisions of -Standing Order 23, to adjourn the House to discuss a matter of urgent public importance; namely the desirability and need for the ~ovemment of the Province to take such steps as are required to ensure that the control and the ownership of large areas of land located in the Shoal Harbour Valley in Trinity North and alon'g the Indian Bay River in Bonavista North be not transferred in any way until such time as the government, with appropriate public consultation, has determined the best use for these track of land.

I have a written statement for Your Honour, as the rule requires. MR SPEAKER: Order, please. Whilst this matter has aroused considerable interest throughout not only the areas concerned hut throughout the province and caused considerable discussion here in the House yesterday. I do not feel that the matter is urgent enough to discontinue the ordinary business of the day; thus 1 have to rule it out. 4699

/ Aptl 30, 1974 Tape 1403 NM-3 MR ROBERTS: I wonder would the Minister Without Portfolio consider calling the estimates of Forestry and Agriculture. as the honourable gentleman. the Minister of Finance, has just suggested, so that we can discuss this matter. MR WM. ROWE: Let us do it now. It is important now. On motion that the House resolve itself into a committee of the whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair: MR CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg.) Order, please. We have presently consumed thirty-two hours and twenty-seven minutes of the allocated seventy-five hours. The clock is running. Shall Heading 1601-01 carry?

MR ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee proceed to Head Xll, Forestry and Agriculture. MR CHAIRMAN: The motion is that the committee proceed to Head XII MR MARSHALL: I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that that particular motion is in order. It is established in the rules and the Standing Orders of the rules that the government call the order of business. Whilst it is obvious that the motion is going to be voted down anyway, I do not think that we should as a matter of precedent allow dilatory motions such as that.

MR ROBER'l'S: Your Honour, if I may speak to what I understand to be a point of order from the gentleman from St John's East: The committee, Sir, is the master of our own procedure. The government call orders but the committee obvious.ly can change that if we so wish, The gentleman from St John's East says it will be voted down. Sir, I have no way to know what the members of the·committee will do. Maybe he has some means of knowing; I do not know that, I might point out as well, Sir, that it is always in order to 1110ve a motion that a certain order of the day be proceeded with.

That would be an analogy which would be relevant here. I submit the motion is in order. I submit further that it is debatable and I submit that it should be debated. MR MARSHALL: It is neither a debatable motion, Mr, Chairman, nor is it in order. 4700

April 30, 1974 Tape 1403 NM-4 MR ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman makes a statement, looks at Your Honour, makes a statement but cites no authority, does not even cite a precedent. I have cited, Sir, not a precedent, because I know of none, but I have cited what I consider to be a reasonably good authority for it. I submit, Sir, that this committee cannot make their own rulings but can determine the order in which we call the heads. If a majority of this committee should wish to proceed with Head Xll, which is Forestry and Agriculture, this committee can pass on to Head Xll.

It is nonsense to say it is not in order to so move, Are we now in the complete slavedom of the gentleman from St John's East? He proposes, he disposes and the rest of us merely look on, Bad enough, Sir, he restricts the time, a gag rule. But now, By God: he even wants to say what we can and cannot discuss: MR MARSHALL: I shall ignore the petulent remarks, Your Honour. The proceedings of the House, as set forth in the Standing Orders - and there are still a lot of them that have not been amended, and still a,lot of it is good.

I refer to page 17 of the Standing Orders, which is grounded on Beauchesne and which says: "All motions referring to the business of the House shall be introduced by the Leader of the House ••• " This is something that the honourable Leader of the Opposition will not like and put out his chest and say I am not the final authority, It was not I who said it; it was the late Mr. Speaker Sparkes.

"He is the final authority as to the general progress of every government project, as to the time to be given to it, the different stages, as to any application of closure"- which we do not use - "or as to any other available method of bringing matters to a conclusion. It is not a debatable motion, Somewhere in Beauchesne there is a list of what motions are debatable and which ones are not. Let me see here: Page 106 lists the motions that are debatable motions from "a" to "m". This one is not included in it of course because it is really out of order.

It says down at the end, "All other motions including adjournment motions shall be d-ecided without debate or amendment." There is the authority then, Mr. Chairman. 4701

April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1403 Page 5 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I submit to that the gentleman in fact has read the relevant note on page seventeen correctly, but it is the first time I have ever heard a person, a minister or a member, state, apparently seriously, that what he says prevails over the rules or what Mr. Speaker Sparkes, who may be the late Speaker but is not the late Mr. Sparkes, (certainly he is very much with us) says; that a note, a commentary takes precedence over the House.

I say that the committee, Sir - and' this is the point - the committee can, if they so wish, by vote determine the order in which the estimates are called - by vote. Similarly the House, Sir, no matter what the Houae Leader may say, if the House should pass a motion that an order be proceeded with, the order is proceeded with. The House leader then has one vote. He has the same vote as any other member. He is only an ordinary member 4702

April lO, 1_q74 Tape 1404. (Jfternoon) PK - 1 'ffi. ROWE, W.N. Page 198 - MR, B/IRRY: Mr. r.hairman, if I could draw Your Honour's attention to the eQuivalent

section in Beauchesne which expands a bit on the procedure note contained in our Standing Orders,on page seventeen; in Beauchesne it is on page eip,hty-tlro of Beauchesne, Secti<;m 88, Subsection (2): "All motions referring to the business of the Rouse should be introduced by the Leader of the House." There is a quote then - "Let us now briefly indicate the influence directly exercised by the Leader of the House on the course of business.

It is his task in the name of the Govern_ment and the party in office, to distribute over the session the prograrrime of legislation announced in the King'.·s ~peech and to advocate it in the Rouse. He assumes the duty of proposing all such motions concerning the agenda of the House as are deemed advisable by the Government and is their spokesman in the debate thereon.

With regard to every Government project, the Leader is the final authority as to its general progress, as to the time to be given to its different stages and as to any application of the closure or other available menthod of shortening debate and bringing matters to a conclusion." MR. 'cHAIR.~AN: The honc,urable Minister without Portfolio. HR. W. P. MARSHALL: I thank the honourable minister. There is another authority, it is right here in the Standing Orders 16(b): 1'Whenever government business has precedence.", which is now, Mr.

Chainnan, "govern- ment orders may be called in such sequence as the government may think fit." MR.. llQBFR"l'S: "!'r. Chairman - ~'R. HARSFI.ALL: Just one moment, I am not - MR. RO!'.F:PTS: Go ahead, I am sorry!. if I keep ground to a halt. MR. MARSHALL: We know that is the rule. I would suggest that~a certain amount of time is now being eonsummed by the onposition on this serious point and we get on to the business of the nrovince. MR. W. N. ROPF.: It is an imnortant ooint, ~r. Chairman. I think we should have SOT!le discussion of it.

There is no doubt about the fact that the government House Leader is entitled to catch Your Honour's eye and call the order of the business, in a general ~ay, which he did, He called 470~

/ April 30, 1974 Tape 1404 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Committee of Supply. Then the Speaker left the Chair. The motion was put in a formal manner, the Speaker left th~ Chair, the Chairman came into the Chair and then the House Leader called or it is aRsumed that he called the head that we are now discussing, the Minister's Salary of the Department of Rural Development. ~ut that is not to sa~, Sir, that no member of the House cannot at any time rise in his place and make a motion, the motion being tantamount to the Orders of the Day be now called or that a certain matter be proceeded with.

At any time,as I understand it, a member of this House can rise, it is not at any time, certainly at the appro~riate time- I think the Leader of the Opnosition did it at the apnro~riate time_ can rise and make a motion that some other order of the day be proceeded with. Obviously the government are in the hands of the majority of the House of Assembly or the majority of the Committee. Otherwise the House has no pot-1er whatsoever, Mr. Chairman.

If a vote be lost at any time, proposed by the government or opposed by the government, if a motion is carried opposed by the government that is certainly then in that case a vote of no-confidence in the government. So I do not see where the House Leader can get his authority from the few scrapy pieces of authority cited from Beauchesne, get the authority to say that the government have the power to say when, how, where, what and anything else concerning any business in the House. The essential point is that the government are in the hands of the majority of this House, Mr. Chairman.

Any member can make a motion and if the House decide by majority not proceed with the motion, the motion is defeated. But that is now tantamount to saying that the Rouse Leader is the tyrant in the House or in the Committee. 'MR. !-f.Al! SHALL: Mr. Chainnan, obviously the government are in the hands --·~ of the House but these are substantive motio~s. _ The House may defeat a motion or may half the motion with respect to substance but for the purnose of the effective operation of any house or any narliament this is the way it is. It is in Beauchesne.

It is in our Standing Orders and it is what is the customary practice throu~hout all of our great British Parlimentary institutions. The unfortunate part and I do not 4704

April 30, 1974 Tape 1404 (Afternoon) PK - 3 like to en~age in the same tyt,e but a little bit of bitterness that comes back and forth is that I think certain members, not all of them but certain me~hers of the Ooposition seem to perpetually forget the ~act that in 1971 they no lon~er formed the ~overnment of this province. MR. CHAIPJ-!AN (STAGG): Well, we are probably going to break new ground again today. However, in the absence of direction, particularly on this point, I am going to refer to ~ection 127 (1) of Beauchesne, on page 114.

He said, "Formerly all motions were debatable, unless some rule or other or other parliamenta~y usage could be quoted to the contrary. But at present the rule is reversed. All motions are to be decided without debate or amendment, except those specifically r~copnized as debatable under Standing Order 32." And one such not debatable motion is' 'Mo-tions relating to the time of sitt:fng and the business of the P.ouse. •· Conseouently I am going to put the motion without debate: The motion is that the Committee refer itself to Head 12- Forestry and Agriculture.

Those in favour of the motion, please say "Aye". the motion "Nay". I declare the "Nays" have 1-t. AN HON. ME?-IBER: Division. Those against MR. CHAIRMAN: On division, if that be in order in Conmdttee. Head HiOl:-01. Shall 1601-01 carry? MR. R. STI-™ONS: Mr. Chairman, before we vote on 1601-01, I would certainly like to hear the minister respond to some of the questions that have heen raised. We ~n this side. have raised a number of very legitimate questions.

I have hel'rd many S'Deskers. say,a surprisingly la~ge number of sneakers indeed from the government side speak on the subject but I have heard scarcely a word frO!II the minister. He did speak briefly on one occasion in the debate on this head. A surprisingly large number of other members on the government side have spoken. Of course, aA a result one d~es not expect anv more of the charges from the Minister without Portfolio about how the oppoRition are wasting 470S

/ April 30, 1974 Tape 1404 (Afternoon) PK - 4 time on the esti.mates. Fully half of the ti~e or more has now been ta~en up by government backbenchers who have been speaking on the subject. Well I do not object to their riRht to speak but I would hope, Mr. Chairman, that at least part of the time taken up by government members would be taken up by the minister responsible for the .department. I would now invite him to answer some of the cuestions.

They are very pej~ine~t ouestions which have been rais~d hv my colleagues, the Leader of the Opposition, by the Member for ~,'hite Bay South, by the Member for Bell Island, by the Member for Labrador North, by the Member for St. Barbe North and by me. All of us have raised very legitimate · questions. If he did not hear them, if he were not listening, if he should like to have them repeated, we should be only too happy to do it. But the point that needs to be made, ~r.

Chairman, is that a number. of important questions have been introduced in this debate and.have not been responded to by the minister up until this time. I would hope before we vote on this item we would indeed hear something by way of explanation, something by way of answers to the many questions we have raised from the minister who after all, Mr. Chairman, is responsible for this department. We have been told in many long-winded ways, over _t?e · p~~t few days, about ~~w Tesponsible he is. If indeed hebe responsible, let him now stand and let him tell us the answers to the questions which have been raised.

We have heard it from everybody but the horse's mouth. We are told he is responsible, ~ are told he is a good minister and vet nothing in this debate from the minister himself would indicate just how good or just how responsible or how knowledgeable a minister he is. It seems for some reason that everybody else is anxious tQ sneak for him or perhaps anxious that he not speak. This was not the case when we dealt with the estimates of the Deoartment of Finance. We heard from the Minister of Finance repeatedly, almost too often, Mr. Chairman, there was no shyness on his part, no reticence, no hesistancv.

Re was on his feet _most of the time during the debate on the estimates for his department. I must say that while in some respects he was probably on his feet too 470b

Aoril 30, 1974 Tape 1404 (Afternoon) PK - S often, I sa,~ it as an encourar,ing sign. I interpreted it to mean that this ~'Ould be the trend tn this debate, that ministers would stand up and at least attemot to answer the Questi~ns, make some effort at it. In that reSl)ect the ~inister of Finance is certainly to be co111111ended. Re certainly did not answer all of. the questions·but at least he made an effort which is more thPn we can say for the ~inister of Rural Develol'1!1ent right now. He has had a number· of ooportunitie,i, Mr, Chairman.

In.a minute I. shall sit down and ~ive him another opportunity, I would invite him on behalf of the members on this side of the co1111Dittee who have spoken to get up and give us some e:xnlanation for the many questions that we ha,i:e- raised on this side of the committee. 4707

/ April 30, 1974 Tape 1405 (afternoon) IB-1 I believe the minister owes it to the public of Newfoundland. I believe he owes it to the members of this committee and I would welcome the opportunity now of listening to him give us the answers to the many questions that we have raised in the last two or three days. I would sincerely hope that he would do that before we vote on this subhead. HON. J. REID (MINISTER OF RURAL nEVELOPMENT): Mr. Chairman, there have been a lot of questions asked since sometime yesterday morning until last night, eleven o'clock,when we closed.

At least I will try to come back with some of the answers at the present moment. Certainly if given an opportunity, a little later I will come back with the rest of the answers to the questions that the various members asked last night. Right now I would certainly like to make connnents on the member for St. Barbe North's statement last night. I think this is very important. This is certainly a part of rural development that probably I should go through with right now.

I think that the questions raised by him last night were as as important or probably more important than any other questions raised, I would like to compliment the opposition on their constructive comments on the department's programmes, other than the authority loan programme, especially by Mr. ~red Rowe.or the member from St. Barbe North. While I feel that there are certain points which should be clarified on the work we are doing with Regional Development Associations - Mr.

Rowe expressed his concern in the following areas: "The local field workers are being employed and grants are being made before associations have held seminars." Now, I think that that needs an explanation because we are studying up development associations all over Newfoundland and Labrador. We certainly want to have everyone involved in those development associations who wish to get involved. This has not been done since I became ~inister of Rural Development. To receive the $12,000 administrative grant which increased 4706

April 30, 1974 Tape 1405 from $10,000 to $12,000 under our new ARDA Programme now being cost· ·shared by Ottawa, any association must: (

a) Open its IB-2 membership to all communities within its area: (

b) Hold a training seminar; (

c) Become an incorporated body; (

d) Have a democratically elected executive. In other words, Mr. Chairman, that anyone - even though we are ~etting accused of almost anything these days as far as being political, any human being can join this association. We would like for everyone to take

part in it. "Have a democrat~cally elected executive"·: Since I have been Hinist£r of Rural Development, no association has received a grant without first meeting with their re_quirements. Second, "that some associations have work but no executive." This is what was stated last night. This is not possible because all grants are made payable to development associations. The local worker is a paid employee who works under direction of the executive. Three, another statement made by Mr. Rowe, that sometimes communities in the area are not members of the association. Now, I do not want to leave the impression - l-fR.

CHAIRMAl~ (l-fR. STAGG): Order, please! Before the honourable minister gets further into his speech I must direct him that he should refer to the honourable member for St. Barbe North, not by his name but refer to him as the honourable member for St. Barbe North. MR. REID: ~r. Chairman, I do not want to leave the impression that I am trying to knock the member from St. Barbe North because what he said last night was very constructive stuff and I am very, very pleased today to do my best to try to explain what is actually happening in those development associations.

Three, all communities within the boundaries of the association are eligible to become members. However, if it should happen that a community for reasons of its own decides not to become a member, they are always eligible to join, In other words, if all the communities in the areas where we are setting up development associations, if they do not feel like joining, a little later on they 4709

April 30, 1974 Tape 1405 IB-3 are always welcome to join thoRe development associations. If a development association refus~ membership to a conununity within its area, it breaks the terms under which it was incorporated and the department may withhold a grant to that associatir,n until the conditions for the grant are met. In fact, not one community in the area would return establishment of the organization. The member from St. Barbe North also said that some associations represent smaller geographic areas than others. This is quite true. This is cor~ect.

The boundaries are set up to include communities that have much in common such as regional schools, resources, road connection and trade patterns, etc. He also asked how the department assists the associations in dealing with their problems. My department is designed to lend support to problems in development associations. Our whole approach is to work with the associations at the regional level to develop 2 planning approach for economic and social develo~ment of the area. I wish to emphasize that the local people will make their own decisions and evaluations in the direction of their planning.

We do not go in and tell them. We are depending on the local people to develop and come forward with these ideas and by all means, if we think they are feasible we will do our utmost to make sure that it is going to be a success. Our main input is to provide any necessary expertise that is lacking in the area, such as engineering studies, business management, techniques and other services not available at the local level. In the Extension Division: In addition the Department through its Extension Division has placed twenty specialists in the field to work with development associations directly.

We also have an individual on staff who provides training relatin~ to the function of Regional Development Associations. My department also provides an information service which makes available to the public information " on all programmes of government and other agencies. A}so a newly signed ADRA-DREE Programme, Regional Projects 4710

April 30, 1974 Tape 14U~ Funding, is available to development associations for economic type projects which were a part of the overall development planned for the region. One of the main purposes of ~his programme is to give encouragement to associations to strengthen their planning and decisions and make them on the local level. Home industries: In the Home Industries Division we are providing assistance in craft development, business management services and new project development.

For example, a few technologists have been employed by the department to encourage the commercial production of jams, jellies and other fruit items. Special attention will be paid to assisting operators of small rural industries to introduce improved business methods. Then the member from Hermitage - I would like to say a couple of words here. Mr. Simmons who was very concerned - .A..'i HONOl'RABLE 't-'E~ER: Inaudible. MR. REID: I am sorry. I cannot help it. I just do it. The member from Hermitaie is concerned about government bec:01!ling too involved with development associations.

The whole concept of the department approach to assisting development associations 4"/11

/ April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1406 Page 1 - MW revolves around the association improving its decision-making capabilities. The grant is to encourage the associations to obtain a high degree of independence from government. In fact the individuals involved in these associations will not tolerate too much government interference. Mr.

Chairman, when I hear the opposition ask questions about our loan programme, I get the feeling that they are saying, "People in rura~ areas are not capable of handling their own loans." 1 am sure that a lot of people throughout Newfoundland, by the way some of our people jumped up on their feet, know that certain little industries can always be very permanent here in Newfoundland. These people jumped up on their feet and tried to condemn it. Some of our own local things will always prosper providing we have the right people to run these little businesses.

My department believes that rural Newfoundlanders are as capable as anybody in handling their responsibility of repaying borrowed money, whether it is from the banks or from the government. My department is determined to continue to provide employment opportwiities to the people of this province. We feel that we have done a good job so far. We are determined to do an even better job in the future. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to point out for the benefit of the committee, Sir, that the Minister without Portfolio, the Member for St.

John's East, raised a point of order, when I was referring to notes there a we~k or so ago. I would like to point out to the committee that the minister who just took his seat, Sir, was reading from a prepared script. I should hope that the rules will apply, Sir, to both sides of this committee in the future. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: There is no difference. Sir. There was a prepared script and the author of it did not even have the courtesy to put in the Member for Hermitage or the Member for White Bay North, he put in their last names, which is not in accordance with the rules of the House. Sir.

I do not mind that but 1 just want the rules to apply to both sides of the committee, Sir. 4712

April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1406 MR.. REID: Mr. Chairman, I think I should be blamed for that. I spent mostly all last night preparing this because I figured today at least they would ask me for a few answers. I could not prep~re all the answers but I certin-1.y will. There was no prepared statement by anyone outside of myself. 1 am one of the junior ministers here and for using their names and that, I am very, very sorry. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to thank the mini&ter. for bis very comprehensive, clear and straightforward answers to the questions that I did ask yesterday respecting the Rural Development Association. I would just like to remind the honourable minister that the expectations of these associations are extremely high indeed. They are going to need a great deal of guidance in the 1110nths and years to come and I hope they will be a success.

However, Sir, I am disturbed about one thing and that is that the minister did answer the questions 1 asked in the com- mittee over a five or ten minute period. ·upon my return to this committee, Sir, I bad heard three of my colleagues ask some very important, extremely important questions of the Hon. Minister for Rural Development. I have .to indicate my disappointment over the fact that the minister did not answer the questions raised by the Member for Hermitage, 'the Member for Bell Island and the Member for White Bay North and White Bay South.

I was hoping that the minister would answer some of these very grave and important questions that were raised. I hope that before this afternoon is out, during the committee's proceedings probably when some of my colleagues can raise these questions, the llinister will attempt to answer them. I personally feel - I say this, Sir, because I am B?mewhat fearful of my political career, I have been• complimented now by the Hon. Premier, the Hon. Member for St. John's South and now the Hon.

Minister of Rural Development,and compliments coming from the ether aide of the committee, Sir, might be the kiss of death for a member on this side of the committee.

,I April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1406 I would urge the minister to answer these very important questions raised by my colleagues last Friday and again yesterday afternoon and last night. But I would wish to thank the minister for answering the questions that I raised. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to raise this matter again. My colleague wanted to leave and that is why I had to dispose of this in a hurry. The Minister without Portfolio said that there is a difference.

Would the minister explain what the difference Page 3 is of that minister reading from a script and my referring to notes when we are speaking in this honourable House. What is the difference? Is the difference because that member sits on that side of the House and I sit over here? Is that the difference? Would the minister please explain to me what is the difference? MR. MARSHALL: Would the honourable member yield the floor? MR. NEARY: Sure. MR. MARSHALL: If the Hon. Member for Bell Island, Mr.

Chairman, should want to go on, he can go on for an hour and one-half or two or three hours explaining the difference and explaining the rules but we are almost half through the estimates. We have one department through. This government is interested both in the government and in the opposition because there is no opposition. I suggest that we get on. The difference is quite frankly this: The Hon. Member for Bell Island was reading from notes, he was reading from them verbatim and was reading from them slavishly, completely and absolutely slavishly.

He was reading them in such a manner that it would almost appear that he was not paying attention,so one would get the impression that it was written by a ghost writer. I do not know whether it was or whether it was not. In any event, Mr. Chairman, it .is peTfectly competent for members to refresh their minds when they are speaking in this House, to glance at notes. I am sure that this is really all that the Hon. Minister of Rural Development, who is a very erudite 4714

April 30. 1974 Tape no. 1406 Page speaker and a very clear and concise speaker. was doing. That is the difference. The difference is. Mr. Chairman, that the Hon. Member for Bell Island was slavishly reading cards that had been prepared either by him or for him.because they were typed. They were typed. MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). 4 MR. MARSHA.LL: They were greenograms,so the Minister of Finance · was saying. The Hon. Minister of Rural Development was merely refreshing his mind. There is a distinction. KR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, they were prepared - KR. CHAIRMA.'i (Mr.

Dunphy): The point raised by the Member for Bell Island appears to be rather frivolous. The Member for Trinity South, the Hon. Minister of Rural Development,was not. in the opinion of the Chair, reading from a prepared script. I do not think there is anything in the rules that says that one cannot refer to notes. prepared notes or otherwise. The point is out ~f order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of Your Honour, I did not raise a point of order, Sir.

I just rose to draw to the attention of the committee - there was no point of order, no point of privilege. no point of anything, not even a pint of water. I could pot care less, Mr. Chairman, if the honourable minister, whose salary we are discussing here, Sir - MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Order please: We are drawing to debating an entirely unrelated issue. We are on Rural Development. I think we should get on with it. liR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I could not care less if the minister come in with a prepared statement or not. I am not that onooty and dirty. I am not like the Minister without Porfolio.

I can get up in this honourable House and make a speech any time I want to, without a n~te. Sir, I sympathize with the minister. He 471;:.i

/ April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1406 · Page 5 prepared his statement last night, He tried to answer some of the points that were raised by my colleague the Member for St. Barbe North. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Order please! The Member for Bell Island is not being relevant. He has gone off in another direction entirely. We are on Rural Development and I think we should get on back to Rural Development. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister refused to answer the pertinent questions that were ~ut to him by members of the opposition.

Sir, this brings into focus the whole matter of wheeling and dealing by ministers who are also directors and shareholders and principals of various companies in this province. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: one call it'l Wheeling and dealing? Wheeling and dealing, of course. What else would 4716

April 30, 1974 Tape 1407 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. Chairman, we were told hy members on that side of the House on numerous occasions that the former Premier of this province was a dictator. That he went and he told members on the government benches at that ti~e when they should speak and when they should not speak. Well, Sir, for the last two days the Hon. Premier has ~one down to that honourable miniRter and counselled him, told him to keeo quit~, sit down. The !-'inister of Finance said, "Sit do,-m, Jim, you are not in conflict of interest." Inaudible. !-'R.

NF.AP.Y: Ah, the Minister of Finance did say it, it was reported in the •·naily !-tevspaner", Sir. The minister did not deny it. The minister stood up and he asked me when conflict of interest legislation was • proclaimed and the Minister of Finance said, "Oh, some time in January,- :- ! think it was. The minister said, "Well how· could I be in conf,lict of interest, if the conflict o~ interest le~islation · were only proclaimed in January?" The ~inister of Finance laughed and sai~ 1 ''Sit down Jim, you are not in conflict of interest anyway," AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 'MR. NEARY: Well I heard him.

The newspaper people up in the press gallery heard him because it was reported - Inaudible. MR . NF.ARY: That is right, they do. They certainly do. Well, Mr. Chairman, the Premier has deliberately, Si~, · I say deliberately told the Minister of Rural Development not to answer any of these questions that we put to. him about this work that was done by the .water line committee in Lead Cove, Sibleyg Cove a~d Trinity Bay. 'MR . REin: ~ • . NF.ARY: Inaudible. No, Mr. Chairman, we did not have a satisfactory exolanation, Sir. We did not. t,lR • PF.

JT) : MR, NEARY: l-1ell I will call the people in and p;ive h:fm an exf)lanation. No, he does not have to call the people in• Do what I suggested. Rave the Auditor General - AN HON • '-'DIB~ : Do not be so foolish.

/ April 30, 1974 Tape 1407 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. NF.ARY: r.all in the Auditor General. There is the man who is impartial. Do not call in his buddies. Do not try and use his political influence on thAt crowd over there the same as he did down at the Puhlic utilities Commission when he wrote the letter objecting to the bu~ service over there because they were going in competition to the honourable minister - MR. 'RF.ID: Do not he so foolish. MR. NF.ARY: That is not being f~olish, Sir. He is not God Almighty, you know. MR. REID: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Chairman, these questions that are most important.

Sir, have been avoided. It went right over his head or the Premier told him not to answer the questions. Nou who is being the dictator? Why does not the minister stand up in man· fashion and p:ive us the answer? It is the minister's honour and integrity that is at stake. Mr, Chait"lllan, it is not good enough.for the Premier to stand up in this House and sav, "I will take the responsibility if there be any corruption in any of the government departments, including the minister's department." That is not good enough, Sir. It is not good enough. We want a lit·tle more than that.

We want the Auditor General called in. The Auditor General who is a servant of this House, a watchdog -of the treasurv called in, do a thorough investigation. AN HON. MF.MBER: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY: Whose name is not written down? Written down where? It is on these - James G. Feid and Sons. MR. REID: Inaudible. MR. NFARY: Well I am only trying to steer the minister in the right direction. There is no conflict of interest? The minister should not have anything to be scared of, nothing to be afraid of. Well "7hy not call in the Auditor General? Why not? Or get up and give us an explanation in this honourable House.

The House is entitled to an exnlanation, ~r. Chairman. We are entitled to it, this committee. M'R. ~EID: I ~'111 get up. ·noes he want me to speak - ml. NFA'RY: Sure,go ahead. J will yield the floor. 4718

At>ril 30, 1974 Tape 1407 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, if I have to 11:0 through everyi'sirigle thing that my COT11Pany, where thev worked and what they have done·for so many years: The Leader of the Opposition last night he raised about how he saw a t>iece of equipment working out here with Seaboard.~ecause government money was used to build that building,even thou1h Seaboard Construction had that contract, my t>iece of equipment was not allowed to work there. I worked with Viking, I worked with r.rosbie's on government jobs. These are the kinds of jobs my eauinment is working on.

They are hired by the Croshie's or the Viking Companies. I have been hired out in Come By Chance. Wh~n tne famous Joey was around, I was out there, I was hired. Was it a conflict of interest then,. if I had been in government? No way, shape or form. How many neonle were in government then that got a contract without even bidding? I am not getting any money, handouts to my company direct from this government or any other government. My equipment is wide open for anyone to hire. If someone inform, me to•~~row·or my manager and want to rent a piece of equipment to anyone from Port aux Basq~es to· St.

John's, I should certainly be allowed to do it. I worked this year on my equiJ)fflent down in Baie Verte. They nhoned for it. They asked me. We had the right equinment. We had good operators and the best equipment, They hired it. I am not sut>pose to work because that was a can~elled job, I am not allowed to go down there. I have to park it now because I am sitting here in the House of Assembly. I worked over in Carbonear. We are working in Bay Roberts right now. What influence can I have over the water and seweage crowd over in Bay Roberts, Carbonear, Heart's Content, Whitbourne and in any other place?

They do not come under my• department. The council can hire whom they like. If mv men and mv equipment are foinJ? the .1ob, t.1hat in the hell is wronr. with them getting a job? Not only that I have had - One thing about it I have had as high as 158 to 159 MewfoundlanderR working with me, ~o~al people working with me, not foreiP,ners, and they are doing a good job, We have been recor.nb.:ed all over Newfoundland. One thing I must say while I am on my feet, 4719

/ April 30, 1974 Tape 1407 (Afternoon) PK - 4 it has been the best advertising, it has not cost me a cent for what vou people are saying over there. in r.rants. In fact I am thinkinR about now l buying several more pieces of equipment because I cannot supply the demand. Now I have been accused, I have reen told and have been accused of governing my equipment this last two years because I came into Rural nevelonment. Now I do not think there is anybody that naive down in my department that would allow that much money for me to be there.

I do not think there is any department here, I do not think there is any mini!lter here that would like for me to take advantage because I am here in government. I have news for some of you people, the less equipment ever Jim Reid brought this last ten years . is this last two years. I can assure them right now that my bus:f.ness today is sufferinR because I am here in this chair. When l ran as a member; I never intended to go into politics, l never had it in mind. Several people asked me to go into politics.

I have not been that sorry since but I know I have had to put up with a lot of bull but in the meantime I ran there in Trinity South hoping that we would have a change, hoping that we would certainly make a difference down there because we were never recognize down there. This letter came so easy, this letter came from the bottom of Trinity Bay and it says 1 'We never had anyone work for us like you did." Then l never eXl)ected to come in here, into this cabinet. I did not ask for it, lam going to assure them that when I came in here it was ouite a challenge.

When I walked into the Community of Social nevelopment Department, if I had known at that day what I had to face down ther.e, Jim Reid would have never been a minister in this House right now, I can assure you that. I faced something down there. l faced, but I will guarantee you we took the bull by the horns. My deputy minister and my staff - the deputy minister ~robably was the only new one who went in,t~ere. The rest were already staff down there. Themorale was lousy, l do not mind quoting that. The morale was lousy.

Today we have one of the best departments down there because one reason is that we are working together, we are working. 1 can travel 4720

April 3<', 1974 Tape 1407 (Afternoon) PK - 5 from Port aux Basques,anywhere · across this island and meet with our field memhers, our directors or anyone and I have been welcome. I recognize anyone who is working with us down there. I will assure you I have a tremendous lot of respect for them and I will assure you that we will certainly get results out of that department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Member for White Bay South. MR. NEARY.: Mr. Chairman, I yielded the floor to the minister to answer a few Questions, Sir. AN HON. ?-ffl,IBFR: Inaudible. Ml!.. NF.ARY: No. I do not. But, you know - MR.

CFAI~~AN: The honourable member now has the floor. MR. NEA..'ll.Y: Okay then, p.o ahead. MR. CF.AIR~~: His honourable colleague should yield the floor to him. MR. ROP~, W. P. further. Mr. Chaipnan, I do not want to prolong this any ~. REID: Mr. Chaiman, I did not speak from notes then. 4721

/ April 30, 1974. Tape 1408 (Afternoon) RH - 1 MR. W. ROWE: That was obvious. It is obvious, Mr. Chairman, the minister did not speak from notes. That was painfully obvious. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to prolong this any further, this debate on the minister's salary,as to whether he is entitled to it or not. I would like to ask the minister one simple question.

Will he undertake to table in this House during this session that might last for two or three weeks, so he has pienty of time to dig up the information, will he under­ take to table in this House or one of his colleagues, the Minister of Finance, Treasury Board, the amount of public money which has gone from the treasury of Newfoundland to his company, James J. Reid and Sons Limited or whatever the name of it is.since the minister became a minister of the government? A simple request and I - MR. REID: I will surely get it. MR. W, ROWE: Well, we have·to let the records show in case, Mr.

Chairman, it was not picked up in Hansard.that the minister has under­ taken within this session to table in this House all public money - MR. REID: All money that I have had direct from the government here. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Directly and indirectly. MR. REID: Well, it is all indirectly,for God sake! Where does it all come from if it does not come from government? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It comes from the, public treasury. MR. REID: That is right, not direct to me though. MR. W. ROWE: All money which was paid directly by the government I asked, Mr. Chairman.

If there are other sources which the minister, which are indirect but which might have come basically from the government, the minister can use his own discretion on that and table ... that information as well. It will probably save him some trouble in the long run because if the sort of thing should come up as was produced in the House by a number of members here,where although the job itself was an indirect job by a water committee of a couple of communities in Newfoundland yet the money was paid out directly. If it be that kind of a situation,naturally I know the minister will use his discretion. 4722

April 30, 1974. Tape 1408 (Afternoon) RH - 2 I as a member of the House would like to see that kind of infor­ mation tabled. I believe there is a requirement somewhere that any money paid by the government to any member of the legal profession who happens to be a member of this House that that information has to be tabled. I do not know the citation. I know that maybe it is done as a result of a question asked by a member to t~e Minister of Justice~ what monies have been paid,but it is done almost as a matter of course I believe.

Perhaps the same thing should apply to companies in which any mel!lber of the House or any minister certainly _ - a 111e111ber of the Rouse is not too important,! do not think,in that regard but any 11inister who has controlling interests or substantially influential interests in a company in Newfoundland, if that company receive money from the government, I think it is a matter course that that information should be tabled in the House· so members of the public and members of the House can see it, can look at it, Mr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): The honourable the Minister of Finance. MR. J.C.

CROSBIE: I have not said very much in this debate, Mr. Chairman, because I just had a whole week of answering non sequiturs, irrelevant arguments, points of obfuscation and points of propaganda and the like. So the last day or two I have not been speaking.in this debate but it is all piece of a pattern, Mr. Chairman.

I have never heard such an abuse of a concept of conflict of interest as comes from the honourable gentlemen opposite who when they were in power were not the least bit concerned or at least gave no public indication of being the least bit concerned with conflict of interest and who have only become interested in the concept in the ... last year or so. Now they are completely twisting it so they can seek presumably to see what kind of a smear job they do on various members of the government. That is a fact and I would like to before I am finished have them give us what their policy would be, Mr.

Chairman, on conflict of interest. Now before the present administration took over as the 472J

/ April 30, 1974. Tape 1408 (Afternoon) RH - 3 government of this Province there was no law, absolutely no law con­ cerning conflict of interest whatsoever. There were not even any rules laid down. There were no rules, no rule of practice, there was no law. The law was changed,

an act was brought in here in 1972 after the matter was studied by Professor Sinclair at New Brunswick, a lot of work done on it, brought in in 1973 I think it was. That legislation provides for disclosure of any interests a member of the government or a member of the House has or certain civil servants have in any companies ,or even if it is not in a company that may be doing business with the government and that therefore might cause a conflict between a person's private interest and his public duty as a member of the House or a member of the government they have to disclose such interests. Mr.

Chairman, if in the course of your public duties, one of your private interests becomes involved so that your decision can either benefit your private interest or not then the legislation requires that you take no

part in that position. That is what the legislation states, Or if you are a member of the House that you disclose to the House what your private interest is; if you are going to vote on a bill where youhavesome private interests, that is what,it requires. The leRislation does not require any member of this House to give up any private interests a member has but he has to disclose what they ar·e. It is disclosure. Now, we will just look at the invoices from the water committee or whatever it is in Sibley's Cove. There is no conflict of interest. The Minister of Rural Development has a company.

It is disclosed in his conflict of interest statement,presumeably, James G. Reid Limited, which for years has been in the excavating and renting of equipment business about this Province and it still is. He has somebody running it while he is here in the House and now in the cabinet. It still is in business and the water c011D11ittee of Sibley's Cove, Lead Cove or whatever it is had a job to be done. Somebody called and asked the 4724

April 30, 1974. Tape 1408 (Afternoon) RH - 4 people at the firm to rent them equipment to dig the water line or what­ ever. They are getting a grant from the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing for the - AN HONOURABLE ?-!EMBER: Rural Development. MR. CROSBIE: The Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing, this is where this is all administered. to pay for this job. Now, they could have asked James G. Reid Limited for equipment. They could have asked, I suppose, Complete Rent Alls or Viking Construction, I do not know who else rents equipment. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Crosbie. MR.

CROSBIE: They asked, I just said Viking Construction. it does not matter, any one of a number of firms. MR. CHAIR.."Yili (Stagg): Order. please! MR. CROSBIE: It is all quite irrelevant. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Bell Island knows the rules in regard to interruption,that he speaks only when he has the floor. MR. CROSBIE: So, Mr. Chairman, this water collm)ittee hired equipment from James G. Reid Limited and paid for it, Either they got the grant from the government and paid for . it or the goverrunent paid it direct as part of the job. Now where is the conflict of interest?

If the Minister of Rural Development. Mr. Reid, had to approve that grant to those persons - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Which he did, MR. CROSBIE: If he had-- so far as I know he did not, If he had to approve that loan to those persons·and already knowing they are goiny to use his equipment to do the job 1 then ·he would be in the position of conflict of interest. If he approved a loan to them ·not knowing who they are going to get to do the job, it is no conflict of interest. All he is doing is his job, approving the loan, presumed that they needed a water line in Sibley's Cove.

So, no conflict of interest even if he approved the loan,which he had not done and did not have to do, it was not in his jurisdiction, lf he 472~

/ April 30, 1974. Tape 1408 (Afternoon) RH - 5 had done that and later on they go out and hire James G. Reid, there still,no there was not any conflict of interest, none whatsoever. If he approved a loan knowing that they are going to use the money to pay James G. Reid,then there would be a conflict of interest. He should say, "No, you will have to F;et another minister or the Premier will have to appoint an acting minister to decide this," if it were in his department which it is not, So the Minister of Rural Development is not connected with this matter at all. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: That is what the legislation calls for. So there is no conflict of interest but what there is, Mr. Chairman, is an attempt to smear the Minister of Rural Development by making it appear as though there is a conflict of interest. If there be any conflict of interest the act here provides for a prosecution. Any citizen can lay a complaint of James G.

Reid, guilty of breach of the Conflict of Interest Act,if there be any conflict of interest, the minister who involved himself in that decision had a personal interest,but there is not going to be any complaint made because he is not guilty of any conflict of interest. Now, Mr. Chairman, the law of this Province is disclosure and then not participating in the decision. That is the law of this Province. There could be a law that could provide that no member of this House or of the government or of the cabinet should be allowed to have any private business interests at all.

That is another position that you could take. You could have that law, that no -f' member of a cabinet or even of the wnole House be permitted to have any private business interests, That is another position that you could take. It has not been taken in this Province and it would be an extreme position to take because you would certainly prevent a lot of people going into politics who have something to contribute and should be there. 472u

April 30, 1974. Tape 1408 (Afternoon) RH - 6 Now, Mr. Chairman. it does not matter whether persons give up theit interests to the honourable crowd opposite or not because I gave up,all of my interests. Every interest I had, every business interest I had I gave up 472"/

April 30, 1974 Tape No. 1409 NM - 1 and sold. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: There is a sworn statement and that is on the record with the Auditor General. Not only is there a sworn statement; I am saying, and I am not known to be a liar, that I sold any private business interests I had and that I have no shares with any companY, except those listed down there, that does business with the government. So I gave up. I chose when I went into public life to give up interests I had in Crosbie and Company and NECCO and this, that and the other and I have. I no-longer have them. My wife does not have them.

The children do·not have them. That is the position. But did that stop ~ campaign of slander and calumny against me for the last few years? Mr. Chairman, it did not. It did not. The honourable gentleman from Bell Island's connnent just then, "Do you expect us to believe that?" is a further exemplification of it. He is now saying he does not believe a sworn statement or my statement in this House. MR. NEARY: I do not believe anything that the honourable gentleman says. MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Chairman, I want this retracted and I want it retracted now,the statement that he does not believe any statement that I make.

That is unparliamentary. I do not really care about his opinion but it is unparliamentary and should not be left on the record here. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is not an unparliamentary statement. Sir, it is not a comment and therefore I have no intention of withdrawing it, Sir. It is not unparliamentary. Would the minister give us a citation. Show us where it is unparliamentary. MR. CROSBIE: I do not need to give a citation. MR. NEARY: Oh yes, Mr. Chairman, the minister does have to. MR. MARSHALL: The citation is here, Mr.

Chairman, I mean he is not allowed to question the honour of one, This is page 131 of Beauchesne, 472tl

April 30, 1974 Tape No. 1409 NM - 2 one is not allowed to tell a member that he is going about the country telling palpable lies, and one is not allowed to question the honour of a person, one is not allowed to say a person is a liar and to say that obviously one does not believe a word- or anything that an honourable member says is in effect quite plainly saying that the person who is making these statements is telling the untruth, in other words is telling lies, impugning his honour, HR.\,'?-{, ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, on the question, I mean I heard nothing whereby the honourable member for Bell Island impugned the honour of the Minister of Finance. He did not call him a liar; he said he did not believe it. Now that might be a defect of the member for Bell Island, For all I know,the minister may be telling the absolut~ unqualified truth, Now there may be a problem with the member for Bell Island, he does not believe him. Now I believe ninety-nine point nine per cent of what the minister says; the member for Bell Island believes nothing that he says.

Now I mean,surely that is a subjective judgement impugning nobody's honour. It may be a problem w~th the member for Bell island, it may be my problem if I believe everything he says. He is not calling the minister a liar and he is not impugning his honour and I would say that the point of order raised, Sir, is specious. MR.

CROSBIE: Page 131 of Beauchesne gives the following examples of unparliamentary phrases, one of them is, ''No member will be permitted to say of another that he could expect no candour from him." Even that mild an expression,"he could expect no candour from him• has been held to be unparliamentary. The statement,that the honourable gentleman does not believe a word t~at I say, if that be not the unparliamentary then we may as well throw away Beauchesne and not operate by any rules at all in this House, MR.

CHAIR.."1AN: The citations brought by honourable members to my left are the citations which I intend to follow in this matter. While the exact statement by the honourable member does not appear, statements of

/ April 30, 1974 Tape No. 1409 NM - 3 similar import do. For instance,it is not parliamentary to question the honour of another person or to tell a member that he went about the country telling probable lies and things of this nature. I believe the honourable member's statement comes into that category, an unparliamentary statement. perhaps rephrase, preferably withdraw. I call upon him to MR, NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I believe my statement to be true. The . honourable gentleman was talking abou~ his shares in various companies and so forth and what he did with these shares. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! Order please!

I am not asking the honourable member to explain his statement, I am asking the honourable member to perhaps rephrase, preferably withdraw and not -to make a speech on the subject. MR. NEARY: What is it I have to rephrase and withdraw? Sir, that I do not believe the honourable gentleman? If Your Honour says - AN PON. MEMBER: Do not believe anything he says. MR. NEARY: That is my prerogative, Sir: I just do not believe the honourable gentleman. So what? I do not believe him. But what else can I say, Siri How can I rephrase that? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The honourable member may not believe him, however that statement is not going to appear on the records of this House unchallenged. Now his statement has been challenged, I am calling upon the honourable member to rephrase probably, withdraw preferably. For the third time I have brought it to his attention. Now the honourable member is called upon to do his duty. MR. NEARY: Your Honour is forcing me to tell a lie. Okay I do believe the honourable gentleman. Now I am lying to the House. Sir, that is a lie.

Your Honour is forcing me not only to commit a mortal sin but to break one of the rules of this House because I am lying to the House. MR, CHAIRMAN·: The honourable member is obviously going to make a few more points before he does what be ultimately will do. However, that - MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I will not. I am telling you that right now. 4730

April 30, 1974 Tape No. 1409 MR. Cl!AlR...'iAN: That is,his withdrawal or his rephrasing or whatever is not acceptable. NM - 4 MR. NEARY: If Your Honour force me to withdraw then I am lying to the House and I do not intend to lie to the House,because I do not believe tl;e honourable gentleman. Sir, I do not believe him. If I do otherwise I will be lying to the committee and I have no intention of - Your Honour is not going to force me to tell a lie to this House. It is against my christian principles and against my religion and I am not going to lie.

Sir, I will not lie for Crosbie or Your Honour or anybody else in this honourable House. I do not believe the gentleman and that is it and I am not going to lie. Mlt. CHAIR.'iAN: I have made a ruling and I have called upon the honourable member to withdraw his statement he has made. Am I to assume that the honourable member will not withdraw his statement? AN HON. MEMBER: What is the statement? MR. CHAIRMAN: The statement is, as I have recollected, that he does not believe any statement made by the Minister of Finance. MR.

NEARY: That is not what I said, Your Honour,! said when the honourable minister was talking about his companies I saia; the honourable gentleman pointed his ~i~ger at me and put a question to me and I said - I find it hard to believe, I do not believe it. That is what I said, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! Order please! Now the honourable member has carried this on as far as this Chair is about to take it. Now the honourable member will either withdraw or I will have to follow the course that is a course that should not have to be followed.

The honourable member does not have to compromise himself in any way really. If the honourable member has uttered a phrase that is unparliamentary, whether he believes it or not- MR. NEARY: Would Your Honour read the citation for us? MR ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR CHAIR.t-fi\N: The ruling is that the expression by the honourable 4731

/ April 30, 1974 Tape No. 1409 NM - 5 member for Rell Island, that he does not believe these statements made by the Minister of Finance, are unp_arliamentary. That is the ruling. That is unparliamentary, The honourable member is called upon to withdraw. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is not unparliamentary, Sir. It is not. Your Honour has not proven to this committee that it is unparliamentary. AN HON. ME}IBER: Are you questioning the Chair? MR. NEARY: I am questioning the Chair. Of course I am.

This whole thing is partisan politics of the worst sort and there is no Crosbie going to make me lie in this honourable House, I do not care where - MR, CHAIRMAN: Order please! Order please! I am now come to the point.for the first time in my tenure as Chairman of Committees, I am come to the point where I have commiserated with the honourable gentleman for as long as I possibly can. I now call upon the honourable gentleman by name. Mr. Neary, you are called upon to apologize to the House or to this committee. If you have any apology to offer now is your time to do so. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, Your Honour has to report to the Speaker of the House, Your Honour cannot make that kind of a ruling in committee. Learn the rules of the House. MR. WM. ROWE: On a point of order, Sir, this is an outragious use of power as far as I know. As I understand the rules,the Chairman has to report to the House. MR. CJIAIRM!u~: Now I am calling upon the honourable member, his last opportunity to withdraw or be named. withdraw the statement made,as unparliamentary. MR. NEARY: Could Your Honour give me the words please, so that I can see what it is I have to withdraw? MR, CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, the statement made by the honourable member for Bell Island was that he did not believe any statement that the member for St. John's West, the Minister of Finance,made. That is what he stated and that is what should be withdrawn if we are to have 4732

April 30, 1974 Tape No. 1409 NM - 6 any parliamentary practice in this committee at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the honourable member-prepared to withdraw? MR. NEARY: I mean.look, Your Honour, if you are going to force me to do it,I will do it. Your Honour is forcing me to do it. 1·will lie, I will lie to the House and I will do it ~f Your Honour is forcing me to do it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the honourable member making an unequivocal wi thd tawal? !om. NEARY: Your Honour, what do you want me to do, get on my knees? MR.. CHAIRMA..'i: . All the honourable member has to do is say, "I Vi-ihdraw the statement." MR.

NEARY: But Your Honour I will retract the statement and I will lie to the House and I will say that I believe the honourable fflinister. I retract. withdraw. What do you want me to do, stand on my head? MR. CHAIRMAN: That is acceptable. MR. NEARY: It is acceptable. Now it 473j

April 30, 197l. Tape 1410 (Afternoon) IB-1 ie acceptable. Now, I am in a position where I have to go out and get down on my knees - MR-... CHAIRMAN (MR. STAGG): The position that the honourable member may be in now is - MR. NEARY: ••• and ask forgiveness for lying to the House because that is what I did. Your Honour forced me to lie to the House. '1-fR. CROSBIE: ?-Ir. Chairman, now that the rules have heen enforced, all I can say,as to whether the honourable gentleman opposite believes me or not, I could not care less because I have no regard for his opinion whatsoever. To get back to ·the point I was making, ~r.

Chairman and this is 'another illustration of it, that it matters not - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, a point of order on the statement just made by the minister. Sir, he says he has no regard for my opinion. He is questioning my character. He is questioning my honour and my motive. I ask Your Honour to give a ruling and ask the minister to withdraw. Sit down while I am raising a point of order. Sit down. MR. CROSBIE: There is no point of order. MR. NEARY: Sit down while I am raising a point of order. MR. CROSBIE: This is not a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman - Sit down! MR. CROSBIE: I am not sitting down. MR.

NF.ARY:· Mr. Chairman, I am standing on a point of order. MR. CHAIR1'1AN (MR. STAr.G): Order, please! I think in view of .the intemperate behavior of the committee that I will recess the committee for five minutes. 4734 ·

April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1411 Page 1 - MW MR. NEARY: Sir, before Your Honour recessed the committee, the Minister of Finance made a statement that I consider to be unparliamentary, Sir. I would like for Your Honour to deal with it. I raised it before Your Honour recessed and went out to his office. I would like for Your Honour to rule on that point of order now, Sir. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, before you rule on it, I would like to know what the statement was, I said .that I have no regard for the opinion of the Member for Bell Island, If any authority can be cited to show that that is unparliamentary, then I certainly would be glad to withdraw it. MR. NEARY: It is impugning the honour of an honourable member of this House, Sir. MR. CROSBIE: Impugning the honour? MR. NEARY: It is just the same as I said that I do not believe anything the honourable minister says. One is just as bad as the other, Sir. I ask Your Honour to give a ruling on it. MR. CHAIRNAN (Mr.

Stagg): The Chair rules that the expression used by the Hon. Minister of Finance is parliamentary. HR. NEARY: Two different sets of rules. MR. CROSBIE: Of course, Mr. Chairman:, it is parliamentary. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): If the Hon, Minister ' of Finance would permit? The procedure with regard to disciplining honourable members has been reviewed in the interim as well. The Hon. Member for Bell Island is pursuing a tack that he has over the past couple of days,which is interference at his whim. Any time he wants to interfere or get his statements into the record, he does so, It is unparliamentary.

It has been brought to his attention on many occasions. I suggest to the honourable member that he refrain from these comments. He has an opportunity as everyone else does. · MR. NEARY: I would like to appeal Your Honour's ruling, MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): That is not a ruling, it is - MR. NF.ARY: On that point of order: Your Honour ruled on it so now I am appealing your ruling, Sir. 473ti

., April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1411 Page 2 On motion that the committee rise to report an appeal of Mr. Chairman's ruling, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Mr. Speaker, while in Committee of the Whole, the Hon. Member for Bell Island rose on a point of order. He alleged that certain remarks by the Minister of Finance were unparliamentary, I ruled that the remarks were parliamentary, The Member for Bell Island appealed my ruling. MR. ROBERTS: Would the Deputy Chairman now state what the words were because that is the point, Mr. Speaker, MR.

SPEAKER: I do not think that that is particularly important to this. I do not have to rule whether it was parliamentary or unparliamentary. The motion is that the ruling made by the Chairman of Committee be sustained. Those in favour "aye/' the "aye's ." have it, Those against "nay." In my opinion On motion that the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair, COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CROSBIE: If I may continue with my few remarks. As I was saying I have no regard whatsoever for the opinions of the Hon, Member for Bell Island.

I am glad to hear that that is quite parliamentary because I felt quite sure that it was. To get back to the point of conflict of interest, Mr, Chairman; As I was pointing out, there is no law in this province today that requires a member of _this House or the government to devest himself of any private interests he has, The law is outlined in the Conflict of Interest Act.

Even if a member should aet rid of any private business interest he does have, it makes absolutely no difference to members of the opposition opposite because as we have already seen by the statements of the Member for Bell Island, he is not prepared to believe that the interests have been gotten rid of in the first place and encourages people to think that this is so, 413b ·

April 30, 197.4 Tape no. 1411 Page 3 Mr. Chairman, whether one gets rid of all the interests that one has or one does not (that is not required by the law) will make no difference to what appears to be a calculated campaign of using the expression conflict of intere~t to attack members of the government .with,in cases where there is no such conflict of interest and in cases where the conflict of interest bas not been breached. Now, Mr. Chairman, there have been many instances in the past of conflict of interest.

The law of this province before 1973 was such that in a case where a member of the government,the head of the government was involved in a company, Investment Developers Limited that leased several liquor stores from the government of the province,and there was no conflict of interest law at all applied to that situation whatsoever. There is just one instance of confl~ct of interest in the past. With the new legislation and in any such instance as that, where the interest was not disclosed, it would clearly be illegal. MR. W. N. POWE: Point of order.

I believe Your Honour drew the Member for Bell Island to order because he was engaging ·10 a philosophical discussion of conflict of interest and the implication is ' there too. Now I would ask Your Honour to make the same ruling with respect to the Hon. Minister cf Finance. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg}: I think the point is a good point. The point under discussion is the Department of Rural Development, 1601-01. Certain allegations of conflict of interest have been made against the Minister of Rural Development, however, and they have become now enshrined in the annals of the House.

I think in the interests of fair play and also relevancy probably the Hon. Minister of Finance should at least be given pe~ssion to e;ICPlain to the committee just what conflict of i~terest is so that the committee can be better informed as to whetber or not the honourable minister is involved in conflict of interest. 4 73·1

/ April 30. 1974 Tape no. 1411 Page 4 MR. CROSBIE: Mr, Chairman. is that tha wish of the opposition in this collBllittee that for many hours of the last few ho~rs o~ the Department of Rural Development have involved themselves into statements or allegations about conflict of ~nterestl If we are not to be permitted to discuss that. then it is a most peculiar thing. Now, Mr. Chairman, what is being done here? MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman. point of order, Is the minister appealing Your Honour's ruling? According to the rules of this House, Mr.

Chairman. one cannot criticize Your Honour's ruling unless one is prepared to appeal it like I did a few moments ago, Sir. I ask the minister if he is appealing Your Honour's ruling, MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): The honourable member did not listen to my ruling,obviously. I have ruled that the honourable minister could explain what conflict of interest was since the point had been brought before the committee,so that the committee could be better informed as to whether or not there was a conflict of interest. MR. NEARY: Your Honour, the minister challenged Your Honour's ruling.

He went on to say well - without going through the formality of an appeal. MR. CROSBIE: May I continue? Now, Mr. Chairman, the Hon. Member for Bell Island does not want honourable members on this side to be permitted to discuss conflict of interest. They just want to make insinuations about the Minister of Rural Development - MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: HR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR.CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Then prevent any one on this side - Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Then prevent any one on this side from speaking on it.

Sit down when I raising a point of order, Another point of order. Sit down,Scrooge: Sit down! Mr. Chairman. I would like to raise a point of order. Mr, Chairman. do you wish me to sit down? Otherwise. I have no intention of sitting. 473H

April 3o, 1974 Tape no. 1411 Page 5 MR. NEARY: Point of order, Sir. MR. CHl\IRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Both honourable members have resumed their places. I do not know if the member is going to raise the same point of order as he raised before and-, of 'course, it is not the Chair's duty to anticipate what the honourable member is going to do. However, I have already ruled that the Minister of Finance . could continue on his explanation of conflict of interest • Certainly for the benefit of the committee, I think it is relevant. The honourable member may now state his point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I have no objection to the minister explaining what conflict of interest means in his terms but Your Honour we want the same right on this side of the committee. Would Your Honour see to it that we will be allowed to comment on what the minister says or. are we just going to have the comments from that side of the committee? MR: CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, that is not a point of order. MR. NEARY: It is a point of order. MR. CROSBIE: It is a question to the Chair. Now, Mr. Chairman, I will continue on with my few remarks. I was amazed - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, may t have a ruliog? MR.

CROSBIE: There is no point of order, Mr. Chairman, MR. NEARY: The honourable gentleman does not own the House, be may own the province. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): honourable member's The member's question - I must say the 49t39

/ April 30, 1974 Tape 1412 (Afternoon) IB-1 temperament this afternoon is not one which tends toward the orderly flow of debate in this colllllittee. MR. NEARY: I am not yoing to be bullied around, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. STACG): The honourable member may not want to be bullied but he certainly ~ives every appearadce of attempting to bully the Chair on a number of occasions. Now, the point raised by the honourable member is hypothetical and the Chair is not required to adjudicate on hypothetical questions. The honourable the Minister of Finance. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable gentleman for Bell Island does not want to hear this question discussed now. The honourable gentleman from Bell Island feels that he can stand in the committee and , make the kinds of statements he does and then attempt to prevent them from being debated or defended. Now, I was amazed, Mr. Chairman, in the course of the debate last night to hear honourable gentlemen opposite say - I believe it was - yes, the member for White Bay South - that suspicious cirsumstances had been disclosed.

While he did not believe the Minister for Rural Development was guilty of anything, suspicions had been raised and these demanded an explanation. He h~ped that the minister will come out as lily-white and innocent. Well, to my mind, Mr. Chairman, this is a new perversion.

This is certainly a perversion of the system of justice we have in this province where one is assumed to be innocent until one is found to be guilty, that now statements can be made by the opposition in this co111Uittee - and these are presumed to be correct and the person they are made about is presumed to be guilty unless he prove that he is innocent. This is indeed something new. Suppose that these invoices from the Water Committee of Lead Cove and Sibleys Cove require an explanation. The Minister of Rural Development has already given the explanation.

It is an explanation that seems to be sensible to anybody in the House. No member opposite has gotten up and said that the ~inister of Rural 4740

April 30~ 1974 Tape 1412 (Afternoon) IB-2 Development arranged a loan for the Water Committee of Sibleys Cove . and directed them an order so that his equipment would be hired by that committee. There has not been any statement or suggestion of that. What the suspicious circumstances are, if they are suspicious. have been explained. A similar thing happened in a debate in this House just a few weeks ago, ~r. Chairman. Despite what explanations were given, despite the documents that were filed, that did no good, That was not found to be convincing.

The suspicious circumstances there - no member of ' the opposite side ever said that these suspicious circumstances had been explained. No. The whole matter was conducted on completely partisan lines, Every member of the opposition said that the charges, as far as they were concerned,were proven; it did not matter what documents were filed in the House and so on. So, this is all part of the course, There is no way the Minister of Rural Development can bring forward any more facts or circumstances to this committee that will find members of the opposition opposit~ now saying that he is lily-white and innocent.

That is quite obvious. So, this is all of a piece. The minister is not guilty of any conflict of interest. There bas been nothing put befo~e the committee to show that he is guilty of any conflict of interest. There have been no very suspicious circumstances put before the committee. Yet, for the last two days, since Friday evening, just a few minutes before the adjournment this matter was brought up, not even earlier in the debate and the debate had been going on for hours then.

So, apparently, Mr, Chairman, this is the kind of~hing that we .are going to go through, not just in the Department of Rural Development but through this whole session until honourable gentlemen opposite get some indication from the public aa to whether they are making any headway or not. Well, I do not think they are going to make any headway in this kind of tack. The minister has been asked to explain these invoices. He bas explained them. There are no circumstances of conflict of interest. 4741

,' April 30, 1974 Tape 1412 IB-3 Perhaps honourable gentlemen opposite when they get into power arc going to provide new legislation and perhaps they would tell us about that. Is it their pledge that when . they get into power at some time in the future that they are going to bring _in legislation that will prevent any member of this House from having any private interests whatsoever if he become a member of the House or a member of the government? Is this what they are aiming for? It certainly was not the case in the last administration. It is not the law of this province now.

It is not the law in the Government of Canada, It is not the law that I know of in any province at the moment. Perhaps this is what we are going to come to but it is certainly not what the public want today • .. So, Mr. Chairman, I feel that the minister has explained satisfactorily these circumstances. The vote should now be carried and the connnittee should move on and discuss the vote and the estimates of his department which are what the public is interested in. MR. NEARY: There is a fat chance, Sir, of letting this vote carry after what we just heard from the Minister of Finance.

The minister, Sir, is making up the rules as he goes. The minister actually is telling us there is no law governing conflict of interest. They make up their own rules. The minister made a couple of statements, Sir, that need to be corrected. The Minister of Rural Development was actually doing business with his own comoany. That is against - AN HONOURABLE }!EmER: No, he is not. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, the checks were !,\Oing from the minister's department. The ~inister of Finance said that it was the Department of Municipal Affairs that was issuin!,\ the checks. That is not so, Sir.

My information, Sir - let me go through it again because obviously the Minister of Finance must have been asleep the other night when I outlined the procedure. The Water Line Committee over in Lead Cove and Sibleys Cove came to. the minister's department and said, "We need so much money." AN HONOURABLE MF:mER: No. . 4 742

April 30, 197li Tape 1412 IB-4 MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. AN HONOPRABLE YE}IBER: No. MR. NEARY: The water vote was under the minister's department. Can the minister deny that? Was not the water vote under the ministeri's own department at the time? ~. REID: No. MR. ~EARY: Well, ~r. Chairman, the minister - t-'R. REID: Inaudible. !-fR. NEARY: When? MR. REID: That was a year before. In fact it was lying over there for almost two years. ~- NEARY: The minister became minister of that department in December, 1972. These invoices are 1973. MR. REID: Yes, but how long was- I there as minister?

I was in Municipal Affairs when that came through. That is when it was. I was not even in it. MR. NEARY: Well, ?-fr. Chairman, these are the matters that we want to get cleared up. That is why I am suggesting - ~-. REID: Well, I cleared them up last night only the honourable member could not understand it. MR. NEARY: No , Mr. Chairman. MR. REID: I read out the dates. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman. ~. REID: I gave them every date. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! . ~. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, my t.mderstandin~, Sir, of this whole situation is that the minister's company was issued checks straight from the minister's own department to his own company. Sir, what I would like for the minister to do then, if the minister is saying, "No, this is not so", go down in his department, check to see if there are any checks there that were issued, bring copies into the committee if they were. Will the minister do that? Will the minister undertake . to just defer passing his estimates? MR. REill: Wh11t was the date on the invo1cc? 474;;;

April 30, 1974 Tape 1412 IB-5 MR. NF.ARY: April 30, ~ay 15. these invoices here. This one is May 31. There arc all kinds of invoices floating around. ~y colleague has two over there. The Leader of the Opposit1on has one. They are floating around everywhere. MR. REID: Municipal Affairs had that all taken over then. 't-'R. NEARY: 1971. 1973. ----- MR. REID_:_ That was only when they went short of money and ~unicipal Affairs had it taken over. Now, is that clear enough? If I bring it up in black and white. the honourable member will not believe it. MR. NEARY: Yes, I will. Bring it up. MR. REID: No way.

I had it here yesterday. MR. NEARY: Bring it up. No, the minister did not have it there yesterday and that is what is causing - MR. REID: The honourable member even stated how I went and got these people to write those letters which I never did. They brought them to me and brought them fifty miles too. MR. NEARY: Voluntarily? They volunteered to bring the letters to the minister? r-<R. REID: Guaranteed. In fact, the phone calls were waiting for me when I got home. MR. NEARY: I have no doubt about that. MR. REID: That is right because I got them out of a wonderful jam. Is the honourable member satisfied? MR.

NEARY: No, I am not satisfied. I want it thoroughly investigated because, Mr. Chairman, it brings into focus the whole matter of wheeling and dealing by ministers with their various companiew. The Minister of Finance can get up and pound his breast all he like and say, "Oh, we are pure. All we have to do is discl'ose our interests." That is not conflict of interest, Sir. That is a farce. No wonder I find it very difficult to swallow anything that that ITlinister says, Sir.

In other words, what the minister is saying is that I can take the shares in my company, put them in trust, sell them to my brother and when I get out of politics I can go out and pick them up again.

April 30·, 1974 Tape 1412 AN RONOtrRABtt ME~ER: The honourabl.e member is only in money business. Mll. NE.ARY: That is just a farce, Sir.- There is nothin .g to it. It is only a gimmick. MR. REID: Does• he want t11e to go back ove~ it ·again? lB-6 MR. NEARY: Well, I would be very pleased if the ll!inister would go back over it a~ain. !om. RIED: If I had it here, I would certainly love to go rigb ·t back over it. MR. NEARY: All right, let us hear it. I yielded the floor before, Sit, and then I got up 8Jld. all I got was a lot of abuse · from the other side. r have no intention of yielding now. MR.

REID: The honourable member got no· abuse from me. MR. NEARY: This whole matter, Sir, has not been settled to the satisfaction of the committee,despite what the Minister of Finance says; "Disclosure is the only tb,ing you have to do under our Conflict of ,Interest Legislation." One has to do more than that, Sir. If the Minister of Finance werereally interested in his coll,eague,• the Minister ·of Rural Devel.opment, he would certainly go along with an impartial 4 7 4;,,

April 30, 1974. Tape 1413 (Afternoon) RH - 1 enquiry. Why not? Does the minister have anything to hide? Nothing ' to hide, well why not go along with the Auditor General going in and taking a look at that situation? MR. REID: It would look so foolish it is not _even funny. HR. NEARY: I am prepared to look foolish. I am quite prepared to look foolish. HR. REID: The honourable member normally does, He normally does. I - what I had yesterday. I will read it back tomorrow to the honourable gentleman. MR. NEARY: Boy, look! Forget the Minister of Finance dragging in his red herring. HR.

REID: The Minister of Finance has no influence over me right now in what we are doing. MR. NEARY: Oh! But he has. He has. He went down the other day and told the honourable gentleman to keep quiet, MR. REID: No way. The Minister of Finance has not spoken to me for weeks. MR. NEARY: Well, maybe the minister is getting too much equipment hired on and running in competition to the minister's own companies. HR. REID: No, I help those companies. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order. The Minister of Finance does not have any companies and he has no companies that have any equipment.

So how could the honourable gentleman make a statement like that. I ask him to withdraw that, MR. NEARY: It is a matter of opinion, boy. Sit down and do not,be so foolish. The honourable gentleman is getting worse, boy. He is getting worse. The honourable gentleman might be taking over this Province but he has not taken over the House yet, We still have certain rights in this honourable House, MR. CROSBIE: Why does he not wo~ry about the Crosbies in his own party and not worry about the ones over here. MR. NEARY: Do not worry, I will keep my eye on the Crosbies. They 474u

April 30, 1974. Tape 1413 (Afternoon) RH - 2 have a foot in both parties now. MR. CROSBIE: The honourable gll?ntleman is not doing much of a job, MR. NEARY: Is that so? MR. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman is worried about the leadership now. HR. NURY: I am not worried about any leadership. MR. CROSBIE : Yes he is. MR. NEARY: The minister is more worried about the leadership than I am. Sir, this whole matter has not be cleared up to the satisfaction of the COl!llllittee.

I would like for the minister to be man enough to get up and agree to having an impartial enquiry made into this, If he has nothing to hide he will do it. Why not? The minister can get up and tell us how hard he worked and what a fine job his company is doing, how hard he has worked down in that department and the minister told us the morale of the department was at an all~time low. Who was the minister's predecessor? Who was the minister's predecessor? His colleague~ the member for Grand Falls. No wonder the morale was so low. MR. REID: Oh, yes! But he walked into an awful stew, did he not?

He walked into an awful stew, MR, NEARY: Sit down, I have the floor. Sit down, I havF the floor, MR. REID: I know, it is too bad he does. MR. NEARY: The minister said the morale of the department was - MR. REID: The morale of the department was not caused by the previous minister - MR. NEARY: The member for Grand Falls was there a year before that minister went in. No wonder the morale down there was so low. MR. REID: It almost broke his heart to see the stew that - MR. NEARY: No wonder the member for Grand Falla had to be flicked out, MR. J . CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

The honourable merqber for Bell Island is deliberately baiting the honourable the minister and then not giving him a chance to reply to his accusations. Thia is 474°/"

/ April 30, 1974. Tape 1413 (Afternoon) RH - 3 a meeting of the committee and the rules are fairly flexible, It permits for any honourable gentleman to make a statement, for the minister whose department is being discussed to reply and then for the honourable gentle­ man who is speaking originally to make a further statement. There is no need to carry on like that. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. It is just - MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Well, the point raised by the honourable member is certainly one that the Chair takes note of. It calls for fair play in connnittee.

The honourable member directs remarks at the honourable minister which on the face of it would require a response at that time. However the rules of the House do not extend themselves to this type of response. Until the rules of the House are amended, so that honourable members can carry on an argument in the fashion that is customary in a domestic House,then I will have to enforce the rule that only the person who has the floor has the right to speak. However, the person who does have the floor certainly has the responsibility to speak in a manner that does not evoke heated responses from the other side. MR..

NEARY: I can speak in any manner I want to in this honourable House providing it is in keeping with the rules of the House and it is not - MR. W. ROWE: On a point of order. Mr. Chairman, I must say, Sir, I have been in the House for some years. I just did not understand Your Honour's ruling. Was Your Honour lecturing the member for Bell Island? Was he ruling that he is not allowed to say anythinr that hurts the minister's feelings? Was he saying that is is quite all right for a minister to interrupt a member heatedly or vociferously because he does not like what the member is saying?

Is that what Your Honour is saying? I mean I just do not understand Your Honour's ruling and I would like to have a clarification of it. MR. CARTER: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman, to that very point of order, Mr. Chairman. The honourable member for Bell Island evokes a 474b

April 30, 1974. Tape 1413 (Afternoon) RH - 4 response from the honourable the minister and then does not permit him­ having baited him, does not permit him to reply. I say that this is improper and unfair and unheard of. »f HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. CRAIRMA.~: Order, please: Order, please: We have already, this afternoon had the ruling of the Chairman appealed. The member for 'White Bay South is now asking the Chair to explain this ruling by using a point of order. Either the member wishes to appeal the ruling or he·does not. The Chair has made all· of the explanations in this matter that it is going to.

MR. W. ROWE: I want the ruling clarified, Sir. I am a member ~f this House and I expect to speak from one occasion to another in the House. Now, did the Chairman rule that you are not allowed to say in committee anything that might irritate a minister and cause a minister to get upset and heated? Is that what the Chainnan ruled? Because if so, Sir, I wili have to guide myself in accordance to that ruling, you understand, Mr. Chairman.

The member for Bell Island is not permitted now,under Your Honour's ruling (Sefore I appeal or not appeal, I would like to know what I am appealing> the member for Bell Island is not allowed to say anything that might upset the minister and cause him to say, "That is not true," or whatever else the case might be, even in spite of the fact that the minister has been asked by every member of this c0111111ittee to get up and say something about what has been said about his department and has refused ~onsistently. Now is that what Your Honour is ruling? HR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please: I think it is fair at this time to give a certain amount of leeway to the honourable member for White Bay South who up to this point I always thought was one of the more perceptive members and certainly could have understood what I had said. I will for the sake of- I am trying to preserve order in the committee which is certainly not an easy task this afternoon. As far as the rules ·as they presently stand are constituted, remarks such as interjections by the Minister of Rural Developm·ent are out of order. I then suggested that 4749

,' April 30, 1974. Tape 1413 (Afternoon) 1H - 5 if honourable members wish to avoid beinp, interrupted they would have to tailor their speeches accordingly. However, the point simply is that no honourable member has the r.ight to speak in this committee unless he has the floor. This is so well enshrined now that I hesitate to get up and say it because I feel that I am being needlessly repetitious. However that is enough of it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, now Your Honour's ruling is correct. It makes sense. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is the sam~ ruling. MR.

NEARY: No, it is not the same ruling, Your Honour, because the minister brought a new point ·into the debate, Sir. He mentioned the fact that the morale of his department was very low - MR. REID: •lt was very low. MR. NEARY: He said it was at an all-time low, Mr. Chairman. The minister said, Sir, the minister said, and l do not mind being interrupted, Mr. Chairman, I do not mind it at all. I can handle the honourable minister. I can handle anybody on that honourable side. MR. REID: How does he mean handle them? MR. NEARY: I can take them all together if they want to get into it, Sir.

I am not worried about them one bit. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Rural Development, Sir, made a statement a few moments ago that the morale of his department was at an all-time low when he became minister. MR. REID: When I went into Community and Social Development, yes. I will go along with the honourable gentleman. MR. NEARY: MR. REID: MR. NEARY: MR. REID: Well, Mr. Chairman, the point that I made was - I will go along with the honourable gentleman there. Right, right, now - Community and social - Now we are in complete agreement.

Sir, do you know who the Minister of Community and Social Development was before that minister took over? MR. NEARY: 4750

April 30, 1974. Tape 1413 (Afternoon) ~ - 6 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. NF.ARY: Who was it? Would anybody care to hazard a guess of who was minister of that department? MR. REID: Does the honourable gentleman want me to answer that? MR. NEARY: No, I will answer it. MR. REID: Sit down, ! ' will answer it, MR. NEARY: One never asks a question in this honourable House unless one knows the answer. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NFARY: The honourable member over there from Grand Falls who got flicked out of the cabinet, Sir. HR. A. J~ SENIOR: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, Mr.

Chairman, I have listened to some of the rulings you have made this afternoon and you have made rulings to the effect . that everybody has a chance to speak in this committee to defend themselves, There have been certain statements made against me, Sir, and I would like to have the opportunity to defend myself at some time in the future. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, Sir. Is that just foolishness? Did you ever hear the like in your life? Does Your Honour want to make a ruling on it. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): The honourable member may direct himself to the point of order.

I believe that the honourable member for Grand Falls certainly at some point during the proceedings will have the opportunity to have his say in this debate, It certainly will be in order for the honourable member to have his say. MR. SENIOR: To further that point of order. The point I want to make is . ~ this, that I am not going to sit in this committee and have accusations made against me, either because I was former minister in this government or as a HHA or personally,without having the opportunity to react to it.

Now whether I have to sit in this committee and listen to a member from the other side get up and speak for an hour before I have a chance to defend myself or whether I can interrupt him, I do not know, Maybe that is contrary to the rules but I am not going to sit here and listen to that kind of accusation without having some opportunity to react to it. 4751

/ April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1414 · Page 1 - MW MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, of course the Member from Grand Falls will have his opportunity to. speak the same as anybody else in this honourable House. That is his right and he should get up and defend himself. Remember, Mr. Chairman, it was not I who made the charges against the honourable member, it was his colleague, the Minister of Rural Development. MR. REID: MR. NEARY: be permitted - MR. REID: ---- I did no such thing. The Minister of Rural •Development, Sir, if I may Point o_f order: I made no accusation against the previous minister. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, let me rephrase what I said. Let me rephrase what I said, Mr. Chairman. The minister introduced in this debate the point about the morale of his department when he became minister. That was purely voluntary. We did not prod the minister. The minister volunteered that information that the morale of that department was at an all-time low. The minister confirmed this by nodding, yes. MR. REID: "It was very low~ I said. MR. NEARY: Very low. Well, Sir, the gentleman who was the minister's predecessor was none other than his colleague, the Member for Grand Falls. MR.

REID: That is right but he was bringing it back on its feet. MR. NEARY: Well he was only there - MR. REID: He was just bringing it back on its feet after the other previous - MR. NEARY: The Member for Grand Falls was in that department, minister of that department for almost a year or a little over a year, I believe almost a year. MR.REID: How long? 4752

April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1414 Page 2 MR. NEARY: Eleven months, almost a year. I was quite right. The minister was there almost a year, Sir. Maybe we will find out now, AN HON. MEMBER: of time. MR. NEARY: Wars have been fought and lost in that length That is right, Sir.· My colleague reminds me that wars have been fought and lost in that length of time, Sir, the minister was then thrown out and his -colleague, his successor, inherited a department apparently that was in a shambles,· AN HON. MEMBER: Now we know why. HR. NEARY: Now we know .why, Mr. Chairman.

Now we are finding out the real truth, the reason why the Member for Grand Falls was flicked out of the cabinet, MR. REID: MR, NEARY: No, he started to get it back on its fee~. That is why he was thrown out of the ca~inet, he was starting to get it back on its feet. MR. REID: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: That was his reward. It is a wonder he did not get one of the Silver Anniversary medals for putting-it back on its feet and then gettin~ thrown out of the cabinet. HR. REID: It is a wonder the honourable member did not have a nervous breakdown under the conditions that were down there.

MR • NEARY: Well if the minister does not keep quiet he is likely to have a nervous breakdown, HR. •. REID: The honourable member will never cause me to have one, I will assure him of that right now. MR. N~Y: Mr. Chairman, if I fling out the bait and they ope~ up their mouths over there and swallow it, I cannot help that, Sir, I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that the Member for Grand Falls will challenge that statement made by his colleague. I did not aake any accusations against the Member for Grand Falla. 4 7 s:,

April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1414 Page 3 MR, REID: I certainly did not. MR. NEARY: No charges, nothing. As a matter of fact, I have nothing but respect for the Hon. Member for Grand Falls. I did not raise the matter. It was raised by his colleague, not by me. The member can get up and slander me all he likes, he can libel me all he likes but I did not say - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I did not say anything about the Member for Grand Falls. He is a nice fellow, he is a decent chap. MR. REID: MR. NEARY: MR. W, N. ROWE: MR. NEARY: That is today. It was the honourable gentleman's colleague.

The Premier should have kept him in the cabinet. Of course, he should have kept him in. He is an honourable, decent gentleman, an honourable man. He should have been k~pt in the cabinet. The member was getting the department back on its feet. AN HON. MEMBER: Backi~g up. MR. NEARY: I am not backing up. I am not scared 0 of anything on that honourable side of the House, nothing! The honourable gentlemen saw that this afternoon. MR. REID: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Let alone the Member for Grand Falls, I am not even seared of "Bully Boy" over there. MR. MORGAN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I _,. do we have to listen to this kind of repetitious trash which is not relevant to the debate at all. We are debating the estimates of the Rural Development Department, 1601-01. We are not discussing whether the Hon. Member for .Bell Island is afraid or in fear of any member on this government side. We are discussing Rural Development. Let us stay relevant to the debate and stop getting on with this kind of trash in this committee. 4754

April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1414 Page 4 MR. W. N. ROWE: Point of order, Sir. I would submit that the Hon. Member for Bell Island has been relevant all along and that he was momentarily diverted there by some words spoken from the other side. I would advise the Member for Bonavista South not to come into this coDD11ittee testy and angry because he was defeated last night in his take over bid of the Human Rights' Association. Just because he was defeated in his try, he should not come into this committee and ta~e it out on us, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please, the Hon.

Member for Bell Island and any ot~er honourable member knows that the rule of relevancy is one that is rigidly enforced. Certainly in this debate it has been rather difficult to enforce it as rigidly as the , Chair would like to have had it. I do think the hopourable member may be wandering somewha.t far afield. I suggest that the honourable member be relevant to Bead 1601-01. MR. HF.ARY: Mr. Chairman, I want to give the Member for Grand Falls an opportunity to speak in this debate so I am not going to prolong the debate any longer.

The honourable member may want to tell us that he inherited the situation, I do not know. Certainly, he should correct what his colleague said down there. It is very damaging to the honourable member who may have amb;J.tions of going back into the cabinet some day. He has to get ' back in the Premier's good graces. Sir, this matter of the invoices and the conflict of interest has not been cleared up. As a matter of fact - MR. REID: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) ~ I I want the minister to bring in the documentation that we asked for the first day that this committee met. We asked to have the invoices.

First of all we want the correspondence between - MR. REID: The honourable gentleman bas the invoices. MR. NEARY: No, I only have some, Mr. Chair111;111. We only have five, Sir. There are twenty-five invoices like this floating around. 47S;j

April 30, MR. REID: more than MR. NEARY: MR. REID: MR. NEARY: 1974 that. Tape no. 1414 Page · 5 Oh, there are more than that. There are one hundred That is right. There are hundreds. Hundreds more than that. Well, Sir, there you go, there is an admission. The minister is now admitting to the suggestions that we are making. MR. RUD: MR. NEARY: MR. REID: MR. NEARY: MR. REID: has on his MR. NEARY: MR. REID: MR. NEARY: table. There are hundreds more than that, So the minister should bring in first of all - My Lord! Do I have to bring them all inl Yes, boy, bring them all in.

I will have more trash than the honourable gentleman Ah, bring them in, I do not care. I do not mind. I do not think that that is necessary. Mr, Chairman, I move Your Honour that we defer the•minister's estimates until he brings in all the documentation concerning this matter between the waterline committee and the minister's department. I move that we defer the estimates. MR. REID: Keep on, Sir, the honourable gentleman is going to embarrass me. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Is the honourable gentleman putting that motion? MR.

NEARY: To defer the mini~ter's estimates until we get the documentation that the committee requires in connection with this matter between James Reid and Sons and the Waterline Committee in Lead Cove, Sibleys Cove, Trinity Bay. MR • . CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): The committee has heard the motion • ... I do not know if I can rephrase it in its original form. I believe the motion is that the estimates of the Department of Rural Development be deferred. Those in favour "aye." Contrary "nay." In my opinion the "nay's" have it. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Shall Head 1601-01, carry? Carried. MR.

SENIOR: Mr. Chairman, I have no desire to prolong the debate. As a matter of fact I do not have any desire to get involved in the 475ti

April 30, 1974 Tape no. 1414 Page 6 debate at all. It is just that my name was brought into it on a couple of occasions. I do not want to enter the debate because I might have to discuss the Member for Bell Island and I would not want to lower myself to that level. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear: Hear! MR. SL"IMONS: Mr. Chairman, I was - MR. CHAIID-IAN (M