Manitoba Hansard — 9 April 1974 (Sitting 84, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-84

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o' clock, Tuesday, April 9, 1974 Openi ng Prayer by Mr. Speaker. 2299 MR. SPE AKER: Pres enting Petitions ; Reading and Receiving Petitions ; Presenting Re ports by Standing and Special Committees; Minis terial Statements and Tabling of Reports . The Honourable Minister of Labour. MINISTE RIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Tra nscona): Mr. Speaker, may I first of all on your behalf table the report of the Ombudsman for the calendar year 1973. Also, Mr.

Speaker, I have a minis terial statement dealing with the matter of the unemploy ment situation in Manitoba that I would like to read to the House. --( Interjec tion)-- Slow or slowly. Okay. Mr. Speaker, this is the month ly report of the situation regarding unemployment in Manitoba which I generally table in the House while we are in session. The report which I have just dis tributed, Mr. Speaker, deals with the unemployment rate for March of 1974 . I am pleased to note, Mr. Speaker, that we have retained our comparative position in having the second lowest rate of unemployment in the Dominion of Canada.

Our rate for March, 1974 was 3. 7 percent which is slightly lower than it was in February of this year when the rate was 3. 9 percent. A year ago - March, 1973 - our rate of unemployment was 4. 5 percent. Our season ally adjus ted rate showed a slight increase of 3. 3 percent in March over 3. 1 percent in February of '74 but lower than 3. 9 recorded in March of 1973. In terms of actual numbers of unemployed, our unemployment figure for March decreased by 1, 000 over what it was in February of this year and a considerably lesser amount of unemployed when comp ared with March of 1973.

Manitoba's labour force continued to grow and in March of this year it stood at 40 9, 000 - 2, 000 higher than it was in February and 12, 000 higher than it was in March of 1973. In terms of total employment our figure stood for the month of March at 394, 000, an increase of 3, 000 over the previous month and 16, 000 higher than it was in March '73. Also, Mr. Speaker, I would indicate that the total number of unemployed decreased by l, 000, March over February this year, which to me indicates a reasonable buoyant economy still continuing in the Province of Manitoba. MR.

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, we thank the Honourable Minis ter for his statement and express conditional satisfaction with the figures to which reference has just been made by him in his statement. I say conditional because we're left asking the question, Mr. Speaker, as to how reliable - and I use the term advisedly - how reliable those statistics are .

The statement that the Minister has just delivered to us reflects a buoyance and a degree of success in the employment picture in Manitoba which is certainly not borne out by the latest effort and offering of the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics which is a brainchild and product of this government and which has given us rather sharply divergent figures and graphs on the provincial employment picture for the months immediately completed during the early part of 1974 .

According to the last table of figures and graphs made available to us, Sir, by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, the Manitoba unemployment rate for the very early part of this year was a round ;j percent, if not slightly above 5 percent, Mr. Speaker, and I'm basing my statement on the graphs that are contained in that report.

Admittedly the graphs and the figures reflect in large part the situation in January and February but they are at such substantial odds with the figures just released by the Minister that it raises the legitimate question as to why the discre pancy exists, how legitimate the discr epancy is and how reliable the figures just presented by the Minister are. Notwiths tanding that disc repancy and that valid question I think we can also ask the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, what progress is being made, if any, in certain crucial areas of the economy, certain crucial areas of industry in this province which have been brought to his attention in the past, and I cite specifically the worker-sh ort garment industry and the worker short building trades indus try. We would be interested in knowing just what kind of reflection there is in terms of availability of workers for those two industries to be found in the statistics he's just delivered to us . Do they reflect an improvement of the worker position and the employ ment position in those industries ?

Lastly, Sir, might I ju st observe for the record that the figures and statistics ju st

2300 April 9, 1974 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORT S (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) . . released by the Minister do not I suspect contain the situation insofar as it applies to native peoples, particularly to Manitobans of Indian or igin in our north, therefore they are mi sleading in their import.

For all those reasons, Sir, I reiterate what I said at the outset of my response; we express conditional satisfaction at the Minister's statement but it is highly conditional and for the conditions that I have outlined we would like a much fuller explanation from him as soon as poss ibl� as to the true employment picture in this province and until then we certainly withhold any applause that we might be inclined to direct his way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wols eley): Mr.

Speaker, we thank the Minister for the comprehensive statement which he has filed. We join with the Conservative Party in expressing a conditional approval of the results . One could not do less in light of the fact that the unemploy ed number has decreased by 1, 000 in the past 30 days. Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the Minister will take no satisfaction from that statistic when he compares it with the very striking reduction in unemployment that occurred in our sist er province of Saskatchewan during the same period.

Saskatchewan unemployed during this same period has dropped by 5, 000 and those unemployed in Manitoba have only dropped by 1, 000, so that progress is not being made on a comparative basis. Mr . Speaker, the Minister should also, and I'm sure he does n't take any great pleasure in announcing that there are 15, 000 people unemployed in Manitoba because this is still 50 percent greater than when his government took office, at thich time there were only 10, 000 people unemployed. We have a special concern because these figures are lumped figures and combined figures and they' re not broken down.

The special concern in Manitoba, according to information we have, is that that rate of employment if it were broken into an age grouping would show an alarming amount of unemployment among the young. Mr. Speaker, that ties into the fact that the brain drain from Manitoba which consists pri marily of young is continuing unabated at this very moment. Approximately 8, 000 are projected to leave Manitoba in the period January 1, 1974 to December 31 , 1974.

So that the kind of work incentives and the kind of job creating thrust of the government over the remaining period of this year must be aimed not only at the young who have already left school, who are by and large the biggest sector of the unemployed in Manitoba, but as well incentive programs are needed in the next few weeks for the 22, 000 students who will be added to the work force in the next short period commencing about April 30 and we hear no statement from either that Minister or the Minister of Industry and Commerce as to what steps will be taken to put that student work force into the income earning stream for the next five months .

Mr. Speaker, the Minister cannot have it both wa ys . We either have an unemploym ent problem in Manitoba or we don't. If we don' t, then it behooves him at the same time to stand up and tell us how he proposes to provide. labour to the fashion industry which still is short 1, 000 to 2 ,000 workers. Mr.

Speaker, we have the anomalous situation where - and I quote one man who spoke to me only half an hour before the House sat today - that he will pay any man $4. 00 an hour who will come to his plant and work seven hours a day and he will perform certain other acts of affection he said, which I won't describe, on that man if he will simply come to work. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the situation in Manitoba. There are jobs ; there are people unemployed and yet there are people looking for workers, whether it's in the fashion industry or whether it's in manufacturing. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister should also include next time in his report some sort of in dication to us as where we stand, not only in unemployment but in average weekly wage, because there, Sir, the gap between Manitoba and Canada has again widened in the past quarter of the year. Mr.

Speaker, for all of those reasons and the reasons that our native population remains unemployed by and large, our students are coming out on the market with little prospect of absorption and that the figures still do not take into accou nt those who have left the work force and are now on welfare, we only can express satisfactio::t at the fact that a thousand more people are working than were working last month but that greater efforts are needed by the Minister and by his colleague, the Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports ? The Honourable

April 9, 1974 2301 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) • . . . Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (S even Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Report of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporati on. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduc tion of Bills , The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Mr. A. R. (FETE) ADAM (S te. Rose) introduced Bill No. 45,

an Act to amend

an Act to repeal

an Act to Validate and Confirm a Cert ain Agreement between The Town of Dauphin and the Rural Municipalit y of Dauphin. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricultu re. HON. SAMUEL USKlW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): No . 970, stand that one, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. Questions. The Honollrable Leader of the Liberal Part y. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. AS PER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Colleges and Univer sities. Could he pro vide a complete report to the House on the termination of Mr.

Cy Gonick' s contract particu larly in view - this is on the FOCUS Educat ion Program - in view of Mr . Gonick•s allegation of last evening that he was the victim of a political purge cond.rcted by Dr. Lionel Orlikow at the instance of Mr. Len Stevens. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of EdJcation. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education and Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs) (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, I would doubt very much whether matters dealing with per sonnel, non-renewal of contracts, contracts which have an expiry date to them are a proper matter for you know, to disclose the details of into the House. Dr. Gonick may have his own views, his own impre ssions which he is at libert y to express, and yesterday in reply to a ques tion in this House I'd indicated che reason for term ination, and that is the long and the short of it. MR. ASPER: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Has he contacted or spoken with Dr.

Orlikow to determine whether or not Len Stevens exerted any pressure leading to the ter mination of Cy Gonick' s position as Direct or of FOCUS, and if he has contacted him what was Dr. Orlik ow's respon se ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Not knowing what the honourable member means by pressure there fore I couldn 't have asked suc h a question. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister.

Has he asked for a full report on the acti vities of FOCUS, a program run by his department, particularl y in view of the conflic ting statements by the Minister and the research assistant for the program on the subject of the FOCUS Program taking firm political stands in its teaching of northern ers ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, Pm quite well acquainted with the FOCUS Program that has been very successf ul and in operation for two or three years in northern Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposition) (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance as Acting Premier and in light of the fact that the other Ministers aren' t present at this time, I wonder if it' s possible for the govern ment to -- (Interj ection) -- I underst and, I app reciate they'r e in Ottawa, ther e's no suggestion that they were n't -- I wonder if the Minister is in a posi tion to present a report to the House in con nec tion with flood forecast ing, particularly in view of the weather at this particular time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (M inister of Finance) (S t. Johns): No, Mr.

Speaker, unfort unately I do not have that information but all I can say is that both the -- well the Minister is expected back tonight or tomorrow morning and even if he's not in I'll ask that the informa tion be made available tomorrow, if it is available . My impre ssion is, Mr. Speaker, that it normally becomes available on Thursdays but if there is of course something unusual then it

230 2 April 9, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (HON. SAUL CHERNIACK cont'd) . . . . . will be made earlier, so that I will undertake to try and have information tomorrow on that. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Dev elop ment. I wonder if he's in a position now to pr esent a report to the House in connection with the Talbot Avenue home and the investigation he was undertaking? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker . The inquiries I made have not been completed.

I do know that the Provincial Depart ment of Health and Social Development had I believe two people that could be I suppose assumed that there was some contact with them. I believe one of them, a senior citizen who is getting a supplement to his regular pension and his OAC, GIS, and another one who is on what they call -- (Interjection) -- no, health services card. In other words he was entitled to certain drugs and spectacles and so on. That's what I have now, there 'll be pro bably more coming. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary.

I wonder if the Minister is in a position to indicate whe ther there was any slacking off in the normal supervision that should have been undertaken by some of the officials of his Department in connection with CARE Services and matters within the department itself? MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker. The information that was given to me just before I came into the House indicated that about three or four weeks ago as a matter of fact someone from CARE Services was in that establishment, if you want to call it that, urged the two people I'm talking about to find alternate accommodation which they declined to do . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Nor thern Affairs. I wonder if he can indicate to the House whether his department or he was aware of the fact that at the time Mr. Ben Thompson was hired under contract with the Department that he was the beneficial owner and operator of Schmid Cartage in Thompson? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Nort hern Affairs. HON. RON Mc BRYDE (Minister of North ern Affairs) (The Pas): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Education. I wonder if he would indicate to the House if possible in a yes or no manner whether or not he has talked to Dr . Lionel Orlikow and ascert ained whether there 's any validity to the charges made by Mr. Gon ick? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I have talked to Dr . Orlikow on many occasions and I am well aware of the fact that Prof essor Gonick' s contract was not renewed. I have indicated the reason why the contract was not renewed and that really is the long and the short of it, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Ac ting First Minister. Has the government conducted any studies which would yield inform ation to the effect that private invest ment in provincial exploration for mineral resources will be reduced as a resu lt of the govern ment's proposed mining legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, the words "has the government made studies" and we have had cert ain - I would say I've had some cert ain off-the-record discus sions so that I'm not in a position to do more than inform the honourable member that I am not aware of any with holding of capital investment. If that is the question tl at he asked. MR. ASPER: Is the Minister of Finance as Acti ng First Minister in a position to agree or disagree, confirm or deny the statement by the Chairman of the Canadian Investment Dealers' Assoc iation, Mr. La tham Burns, to the effect that if the legislation concerning MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'll rephrase it. MR . SPEAKER: Very well. MR. ASPER: Is the Minister in a position to confirm the statement, or deny the statement of Mr. Latham Burns, the Chairman of the Canadian Investment Dealer s' Association . . .

April 9, 1974 2303 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Again what purpose does it serve the procedures for a Mini ster to deny something outside of this Assembly ? The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: I find myself rising to the defence of the Leader of the Liberal Party if only, Mr. Speaker, in an indication that I know what he's talking about and it would be more helpful if he asked about an interview I'm purported to have had with Mr.

Latham Burns who did come to see me yesterday with the executive, I would say six or eight members of the executive of the Investment Dealers' Association of Canada. The Honourable the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and I, and my Deputy Minister, had a meeting with the Chairman of the Investment Dealers' Associ ation. The reason I refer to that is that there is a newspaper report which I picked up this morning which indicates that Mr. Burns told the Honourable Minister and me that the mining legislation puts too much discretion in government hands and leaves investors unsure of where they stand.

This is not a quotation, Mr. Chairman, I've been hoping to hear from Mr . Burns because I asked that a call be put through to him because I want to deny that he made such a statement to us and I hoped that I would have heard from him to have him confirm that fact. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, and I ch ecked with my deputy and I also ch ecked with the Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs, as far as we are concer ned there was no such state ment made to us by Mr. Burns .

That doesn't mean that he didn't make a statement of that type to the media or to whoever he spoke at the Canadian Club, but we did not discuss this aspect at all. The only thing we did discuss was the government's desire that when exploration does take place in the future that the government will have an oppor tunity to become involved in joint ven ture in exploration so that the people of Manitoba would have a basic equity inter est in future explorations if it so desires. MR.

SPEAKER: I thank the Honourable Minister for the explanation but I think it points out the necessit y for the rule that we have in trying to corroborate newspaper reports and having members place questions upon that, and that' s why I indicated to the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Part y that his question was just not pro per. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Ac ting First Minister.

It deals with the Ombudsman report and the statement of his conclusion on Page 11, and I would like to ask the Acting First Minister whether the government would now consider in the light of Mr. Maltby' s statement that he is ready to come before the Committee of the House to discuss his report, whether the government will now consider a reso lution which will allow the Ombudsman to come before the committee so that he can be examined by members of the committee in connection with his report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I'm informed that there does not appear to be a pro vision for that in our legislation but the question is is the government prepared to make provision for that . MR. PAULLEY: . . . he is under the jurisdic tion of the House not the governm ent. MR. CHERNIACK: The point made, which is correct , is that the Ombudsman reports to the Legislature not to the govern ment. Nevertheless the question as asked is one that we could consider in government for an attitude and I think we'll acc Bpt his question as one for considera tion. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR.

ARNOLD BROWN (Rhi neland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Can the Minister tell this House whether the freeze on personal care home cons trtlction has been lifted? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Yes, I believe I stated so about three weeks ago. MR . BROWN: My question's to the same Minister. Can the Minister tell the House how many applications for new personal care homes he has received in the last six months ? MR. SPEAKER: Order for Return. MR. MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to ask the Minister of Finance a question. Will the Minister indicate whether the provincial government intends to pay 50 percent of the 1974 deficit of the City of Winnipeg Transit System as it has

2304 April 9, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. AXWORTHY cont 'd) . . . . . agreed to do in the case of the 1973 deficit ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, the policy of the government in this respect has been enunciated. Now I saw a report today about a deficit beyond that which was expected and I would say that that is a new matter that would have to be reviewed.

I'm speaking only on behalf of the Minister for Urban Affairs and he may have more to say in due cour se, but at this stage I would suggest that pro bably we would not do more now than to consider any additional request from the City of Winnipeg. MR. AXWORTHY: I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker . Could the Minister then in dicate whether the proposal or the program of providing a 50 percent assistance on the deficit is a permanent program or was that only an interim arrangement for 19 73 ? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I could only accept that question as notice.

I don't want to commit the government to something I'm not sure of. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of North ern Affairs. I wonder if he can inform the House whether Mr. Don Howden who was the former Coordinator of the Manitoba Metis Federation Housing Program has become an employee of the Department of Nort hern Affairs, and when he did become such an employee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. Mc'BRYDE: I'll take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary.

I wonder if the Minister of Nort hern Affairs can inform us whether Mr. Howden's been employed by the department as a civil servant or is on contract, and if so the term of his contrac t. MR. McB RYDE: I'll take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister for Finance. It relates to the report of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporat ion, the certif icate of the auditor which says, "Because of a lack of effective expenditure allocations, the position vis-a-vis . . . " MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR.

ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I intend to ask a question related to a statement that' s just been tabled in the House. The statement is - all rig ht, Mr. Speaker, I'll paraphrase it. In view of the Provincia l Auditor' s statement that there 's ineffective expenditure allocations in connection with MHRC, has the Minister of Finance ordered the Provincial Auditor to make a further investigation and report to him on this issue of ineffective expenditure allocation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Financ e. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I think it's already been reported in this House that the comments by the Provincial Auditor have been sent to the Minister for Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation who is co nducting a review of changes that are advisable in order to more fully ref lect the accounting proced ures. This is an ongoing matter which is being done and I believe with the cooperation of the Provincial Auditor and cer tainly with the assistance of my own department. MR. ASPER: To the Minister of Finance.

Can the Minister of Finance tell the House where the million dollars that is purport edly missing from MHRC and referred to in the report, in the notes to the financial statement the final page, paragraph 7, can the Minister indicate to the House whether he knows where the million dollars is that the auditor ca n't seem to find? A MEMBER: What's a million. MR. CHERNIACK : Mr. Speaker, I do look at this and I see no reference to the auditor being unable to find a million dollars, Mr.

Speaker. lt' s a distort ion of what I read here as a statement that does state that that these individual items have not been resolved between the Corporat ion and the Nor thern Manpower Corps. Ther e's no suggestion that I read here that the Provincial Auditor ca n't find a million dollar s. The fact is that the individual items re ferred to have been resol ved by this time. That' s correct Saul, isn't it ? (Yes) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, my question relates to the Minister 's answer to the effect that the million dollars have been resolved, is that what the Minister said, they have been ? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I never said that the million dollars has been resolved.

April 9, 1974 230 5 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. CH ERNIACK cont'd) . . . There is no need to resolve a million dollars. What had to be resolved was the items have been resol ved now by the Corp oration and the Nor thern Man power Corps. I'm saying that dollars were not lost, there had to be a res olution of the apportion ment of the accounts referred to and I believe that has been done in a proper way with the approval of a Provincial Auditor. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: . . . to the Minister of Finance.

Would he be good enough to let the House have that information as to where the million dollars was allocated in view of the fact that the Provincial Auditor has found it necessary to make a note to his financial statement saying that it is not allocated, and would he now tell us where the million dollars is? MR. CHERNIACK : Mr. Speaker, this matter has been before this House before and it was stated . . . Mr.

Speaker, the auditor's report which relates to, I suppose the fiscal year March 31 , 1973 ref ers to certain accou nting, and I am sure that in my presence this was dis cussed in this House by the Minister resp onsible, members opposite questioned it, answers were given and I recall that what was . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Apparently the House doesn't wish to hear the answer, they're making a lot of noise. The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr .

Speaker, the answer that was given, and I was here when it was given, was that there was bridge financing provided and that that has since been repaid and in accordance with the requirement of the Provincial Auditor' s procedure. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister for Consumer, Corp orate and Internal Affairs. Is the Minister satis fied that claims made by manufacturers of pref abr icated steel buildings are not misleading in asmuch as the erection techniques are concer ned? MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Serv ices. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minis ter of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services ) (Osborne) : Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his succinct question but regret that it has not more specific referenc e. Perhaps if he could give me the advertising he's talking about or the firm he's talking about I could deal with the question. MR. MARION: In the question period one can' t give too much

preamble, Mr. Speaker. I was dealing with the Powerview Arena if this is zeroing in on the problem. I wonder if that enlightens the Minister? MR. TURNBULL: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARION: I'd like to ask a supplementary of the Minister. Will the Minister advise this House of the corrections he will bring about to protect consumers from oversi mplification of erect ion tec hniques which have proven to be disastrous, namely in the Powerview Arena example? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, I would have to say that I am not aware of the construc tion techniques that have been oversimplified in this partic ular case, and with regard to the kind of problem that he is raising I cannot think of anything within the Consumer Protection Act that would give me the legislative authority to regulate the particular procedures that be' s re f�rring to. MR. MARION: A final supplementary to the same Minister.

Does the Minister 'd depart ment protect consumers from not only overe xaggerating in claims that a product will accomplis h but also in the techniques that must be used to make the prod uct properly usable by a consumer? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, the questions are relatively vague and I would ask the Member for St. Boniface to review the Consumer Protection Act and perhaps ra ise this matter with me, I can go over it with him, but his question gives me no enlightenment at all. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Financ e.

Can he advise the House when he was apprised by the Provincial Auditor of the million dollar amount that's in question here with regards to the bridge financing and presuma bly what is referred to in the report of the auditor on MHRC as reg ards lack of effective expenditure allocations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister.

23 06 April 9, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I cannot inform the House when I was first informed by the Provincial Auditor. I can take it as notice but I cannot say. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, then the next question would be: Was the Minister advised by the Provincial Auditor of this? MR . CHERNIACK : Mr. Speaker, it has been reported before that the procedure the Provincial Auditor follows when he reviews a department and has comments to make in regard to them, is to write to the Minister responsible with copy to me.

And in the case of the copies that are received by me, they come a little later, they are recorded and followed up in due course to see as a reminder to the Minister respon sible that they're being dealt with. So that I would assume that I had been informed, that my department had seen a comment of this kind and that there has been a follow up. Now that is the procedure that's carried out. MR. CRAIK: A final supplementary then. Can the Minister advise if Cabinet was in formed of this inform ation? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr .

Speaker, very often there is Cabinet involved in a decision of an Order-in-C ouncil nature when there has to be ch anges made to accord to the reco mmendations of the Provincial Auditor . If matters are handled to the satisfaction of the Provincial Auditor then it is not likely that Cabinet would be informed, unless an executive function has to be carried out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General.

I wonder, Sir, whether he could indicate to the House whether or not the matter that has just been discussed has ever been ref erred to his depar tment? --(Interj ec tion) -- The matter of the million dollars. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Labour. I wonder if he can confirm a statement that he made on radio earlier this week that he is amenable, to use his term, to amendments to

Section 44(2) of Bill 7 having to do with Cabinet authority over the political rights of civil servants ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, in answer, I had the pleasure of being with my honourable friend the Member for Fort Garry on one of these hot line program s. In the course I repeated a statement I thought I had made in this House on at least two occasions in respect of Bill No. 7, that when it gets in, and if it gets in to committee for consideration I would be amenable, I would give consideration to amendments that were pr oposed.

That is the answer to my honour able friend which was made public in this House fir st of all, over the radio station and I now make it again. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr . Speaker, my question is to the Minister respon sible for Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. It relates to the information cont ained in the Note 7 to the financial statement just disc ussed. Would he indicate to the House whether the 39 houses built by his division in Churchill in the north are going to cost $1. 5 million, being $40, 000 each, or are they going to cost something less? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER: If your arithmetic is correct then it would seem that they're going to cost $40, 000 each. MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister is: How is it possible that the cos t of those houses, which I perso nally seen, could be anything beyond 15, 000, which is twice what they would cost in Winnipeg? MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, if these homes were built in Winnipeg I might concede that they might cost 30, 000 at today's prices but the member should realize that costs of housing in northern Manitoba and in Churchill in particular are extremely high and have been very very high. The Federal Government is also building housing there by the same Northern Manpower Cor ps. and these costs are very high because of the cost of materials . MR. ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

Then can I take it from his response that the million dollars that seems to be in doubt in the note -- (Interj ect ion) Well all right, then let me put it this way, Mr . Speaker. That the million dollars that the

April 9, 1974 2307 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. ASPER cont'd) . . . . . Auditor comments on in Note 7 is ac tually going to be absorbed by MHRC as part of the cos t of 39 houses ? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the difference in the figures shown, and I'd indicated to the House before, the Northern Manpower Corps are acting as contractors for MHRC .

They cannot go to the bank and raise funds, the material therefore is supplied to them by MHRC, advances are given, and the difference that was indicated in the report here indicates two things: One, that there was no agreement as between the Department of Nor thern Affairs and MHRC as to these advances and that there should have been an agreement and there wasn't as between department s . The other factor was a reference to the fact that some homes were built and sold to the Federal Government in Northwest Territ ori es.

And this is simply because the Churchill Nor thern Manpower Corps was desirous and interested, and frankly with my bles sing - I wasn't involved but I would have given it even if I had been involved - to try to develop a market beyond Churchill, Manitoba, because the day will come when housing in Church ill will be satisfied and then the North ern Manpower Corps which is doing a splended job of building houses would simply fold up because they have no market, they ca n't compete in the south.

So they are trying to build a clientele and develop a market outside of Manitoba, and it was in order to make it pos sible for them to do this that money was made available through MHRC . Now that money should have really been coming from the Department of North ern Affairs and it was this anomaly which the auditor broug ht to our attention. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendr ye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Education.

I would like to ask the Mini ster if he has received res olutions from different towns and rural municipalities asking for financial assistance to help offset the larg e increa se in the educational special mill rate levy ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK : I'm sure the honourable member is well aware that under the pro visions of the Public Schools Act my department is not in a position to offer any municipality assistanc e.

We are responsible, we do bear a considera ble measure of resp onsibility in the field of providing assistance for the cost of education in the province but not by way of assist ance to towns or municipalit ies. There are other ways and means of providing that assistance, which we are doing. MR. BANMAN: A supplementary question, Mr . Speaker. Is the government considering financial aid to those sch ool divisions which will be experiencing a high increase in the sch ool special mill rate levy ? MR. HANUSCHAK : Mr. Speaker, we have considered it in the past, not only have we considered it we have acted on it.

Not too long ago an announcement was made in this House, some ch anges in the grant stru cture to the sch ool divisions and more rece ntly it was announced by the First Minister that further consideration is being given to further assistance to sch ool divisions to bring about a greater measure of equity in the bearing of education costs in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion. MR . SPIVAK : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister in charg e of the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corpo ration and relates to the answer just given.

I wonder if it's the inten tion of the government to br ing in legislation to approve the moneys that were spent that the auditor' s referred to in which there was no legal authority for the bridge financing that was ref erred to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe legislation is requ ired.

It was simply a matter that the moneys which should have been made available through the Department of Nort hern Affairs were made available through MHRC and that is the adjustment that has to be made in order to correct it so that it follow the procedures which the Auditor would want. MR. SPIVAK : Yes, I wonder if the Minister can indicate why if the answer that was given just a few moments ago was satisfactory as to satisfy the House, why it did not satisfy the Auditor ? MR.

MILLER: The Auditor has a very preci se requirement and in order for that re quirement to be met he'd have to indicate that it has not been met, as he did. Because MHRC

230 8 April 9, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . MILLER cont'd) . . . . . should really not, I suppose, have made this money avail able in advance to the North ern Manpower Corp s. , the money should have really flowed I suppose from Nor thern Affairs. And it was this that had to be corrected and this is what he was bring ing to our attention. And so that in the future the money will flow the way it should flow from the Department of North ern Affairs for their share and MHRC for their share, what ever the division is. MR. SPIVAK: To the Minister again.

Is there not an obligation on the part of the government to legalize the action that they now have undertaken by in fact bringing in legisla tion or of an appropriation that would infu.ct acc omplish what he's just suggested ? MR. MILLER: Legislation is not required. We simply have to do what the Auditor re quests of us, that the money should flow and be charged to a partic ular department and that is exactly what -- the or ders went out that it should be corrected and it should follow this pro cedure and that's the procedure that will be followed. MR.

SPIVAK: Is there not an obligation on the part of the government where money has in fact been spent on which there has been no vote or appropriation, to legalize that act ion in this House by some approval from the Legislature ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CH ERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, if I may, the word "legalize" is a word which has been introduced into this discussion by the Leader of the Opposi tion I believe . What I understood had to be done is that correct ive measures had to be taken as indicated by the Auditor and my underst anding is that they have been taken. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I do intend for my own satisfaction to confirm again that it was done in accordance with the requirements of the law. Now that to me does not mean that something had to be legalized because it was illegal. I am under the impression that some act, something had to be confirmed in some way in order to regulari ze what was irr egular and theref ore I am not satisfied that it needs legislation. If it does, or if it did, I would expec t that the Auditor or my department would have so informed us and we have no such information.

But I do intend to make certain now that I am correct in my impression that there is no need to legislate; there was need to regularize and I will attempt to get confirmation as to the manner in which it had to be done and was done. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr . Speaker, my question then is to the Minister of Finance. I wonder if he is going to obtain that information whether he would obtain the following information as well.

And that is, the first time that the Auditor brought this to the attention of the government and the amount of time that it took before the legalizing took place with resp ect to this matter. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morri s): Mr.

Speaker, I' d like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him in the light of the generous subsidy being paid to hog farmers in Saskatchewan if he has investigated reports of Saskatc hewan farmers coming across the border, buying hogs in Manitoba, taking them back to Saskatc hewan and marke ting them there, there by collecting the subsidy at the expense of the Saskatc hewan taxpayer and a ripoff on the Manitoba hog producer who also has to subsidize the Japanese ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure my honourable fri end knows that I would not have any particular knowledge of that particular act ivity and quite frankly would not be very much concerned about it if it did exist. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr . Speaker, my question is to the Minister respon sible for MHRC . Could be indicate to the House whether the 39 houses in Churchill have a hard physical cost of $13, 000 per house repres enting the $500, 000 the Auditor refers to, or has that money, the extra million dollars, gone into the houses as well to give them the $40, 000 cost ? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the question escapes me completel y, I just ca n't follow the arithmetic pra cticed by the honourable member. There are cert ain figures he mentions which I can' t follow on the report here. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'll try to clarif y my question. The Provincial Auditor

April 9, 1974 (MR. ASPER cont'd) . . the value he says. MEMBERS: No, no, no. 2309 ORAL QUESTIONS says there is $500, 000 that he can find in 39 houses. That's MR. ASPER: Mr . Speaker, that's how I read it. If that's not right . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder if it would not be possible to pursu e this matter under a much more ideal condition than the question perio d. I'm certain the honourable member could find many areas where he could debate the issue very well. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I concur and I'll put one much more simple question then.

Can the Minister confirm that the $1. 5 million ref erred to in Note 7 to the report, did the 1. 5 million go into labour and materials directly associated with the 39 houses or did it go somewhere else ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, it didn't nec essarily go into that 39, it could have been that 39 plus the beginnings of the next 80 because there's more than 39 units involved. There is I believe 39 family units, there's 80 family units and it has been indicated also some units that Northern Manpower Corps built for Northwest Territor ies. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, now the question period is over if we may con tinue with the -- (Interjections) -- Well I tried, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arth ur. MR. J. DOUG LAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Health and Socia l Services or the Minister of Agriculture, whichever one wishes to answer. Is it their intention to proceed with the disposal and centraliza tion of the home economi sts in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe we have ever given the House the impression that there is some kind of a centralization taking plac e. I think we have indicated to the House that we are expanding the home ec. program in order that we would include all of Manitoba for the first time in the history of this prov ince. MR. WATT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, then.

Is the Minister not aware that there is widespread concern over the whole of the province because of the withdrawal of the economists from the southwest area and the northwest area and the southeast area and the whole rural area in the Province of Manitoba ? Is he not aware? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I am very much aware of concerns about many aspects of that par ticular program, some which are real, Mr . Speaker, and some concerns which have been promoted by members opposit e. MEMBERS: Oh no, no, no. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

MR. WATT: I have another supplementary question. MR. SPEAKE R: Very well. MR. WATT: My question then: Has the Minister not heard from the W. I. and from the 4-H Clubs and from the people all over the prov ince as I have - letters by the hundreds and telephone calls by the hundreds from all over this provi nce ? If he hasn't then he doesn't MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. WATT: . · • . know what's going on in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricultu re. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I know that the honourable member perhaps does not recall -- well in fact he co uldn't recall, Mr. Speaker, the debates on my Estimates because they weren't debated . Members opposite chose not to debate the Estimates. That is their way of acting respons ibly or otherwi se on behalf of the people of Manitoba. Now had they debated them, Mr. Speaker, I would have advised him then and I'm prepared to advise him now, that the budget for the 4-H Program moved from about $160, 000 in 1969 to $460, 000 in 1974. (Applause)

231 0 April 9, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Mor ris . MR . JORGENSON: I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture would tell us if he has been associating with some of his colleag ues who are complaining that we are debtaing the Estimates and we're debating policies of this government in this House too much? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I app reciate the time that my honourable friends use up in the consideration of any particular departmental estimate, but let me assure you, Mr.

Speaker, that they didn't deal with the substance of the Department of Agriculture this year. MR. JORGENSON: Would the Minister conclude as we have concluded from that there 's no point in debtaing the Minister 's Estimates because he wants to take up all the time himself. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JORGENSON: . . . just killing time rather than answering questions. (Applause) MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Labour. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, may I try again and suggest that we go on to the adjourned debates on sec ond reading commencing with Bill No. 7. GOVERNMENT BILLS - SECOND READING MR. SPEAKER: Proposed motion ofthe Honourable Minister of Labour and amendment theret o by the Honourable Member for Gladstone. The Honourable Member for Birtle . MR. PAULLEY: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker. I believe the House -- (Inter jec tion) - Okay. Then, Mr. Speaker, on that unders tanding we'll pass that for the present time and go into Bill No . 17. A MEMBER: He's out. MR. SPEAKER: Tbe Honourable Member for MR. PAULLEY: Maybe, Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of that member at the present time could we go to Bill 27, The Lotteries Act. MR . SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. The Honourable Member for Roblin. Bill No. 27. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin) : Mr. Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have the matter stand. (Agreed) MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: We seem to be afflicted with absenteeism at the present time. I note however that the Honourable Member for Brandon West is here, possibly he would like . MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 36.

The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): May I have that matter stand, Mr. Speaker ? (Agreed) MR. PAULLEY: The introduction of Bill No. 30, Mr. Speaker. BILL NO. 30 HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Minister of Municip al Affairs) (S elkirk) presented Bill No. 30,

an Act to amend the Municip al Assessment Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the bill before us relates to a number of proposals dealing with amendments in '!he Assessment Act. By Resolution No . 9 of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities in 1972 there was a req uest to government to clarify the definition in the Munici pal Assessment Act with regard to "farm stock " taking into consideration animals which are kept as pets, hobbies and used for activities other than the production of agri cult ural prod ucts. The prop osed amendments are directed toward this cl arification.

April 9, 1974 2311 BILL NO. 30 (MR. PAWLEY con t'

d) Also the bill deals with the right interest or estate of an occupier in Cr own land, is assessed with certain exceptio ns. One of these exceptions is the ri ght or interest of a teacher in land he is occ upying as his residenc e. This pro vision is no longer necessary because teachers' residences are no longer exempt from taxation as a resu lt of changes to The Municipal Asses sment Act in 1971. Further change has the effect of making mobile homes subject to assessment under cer tain circumst anc es.

The proposed amendment leaves the municip ality with the option of levying a licence fee if it chooses to do so or opting in favour of having mobile homes assessed. The present Municip al Assessment Act establishes a procedure for changing the name of the person on the assessment roll where there has been a change in title in the Land Titles Office. Under the present legis'lation these changes must be made by a Court of Revision. This entails a cumbersome time-cons uming procedur e.

The proposed amendment permits the Clerk of the Municip ality to amend the current tax roll, amend the asses sment roll upon receiving a notice from the Land Titles Office of a change in the name of the registered owner. This amendment was propo sed by the Manitoba Association of Secret ary- Treasurers as a means of speeding up and at the same time simplifying the administrative action. A further amendment propo ses a change in the Act dealing with that

section which con templates assessing as one parcel lots that belong to more than one pers on, is not used and should not be encouraged. A further amendment to the Act ties in with the new definition of farm stock as dealt with earlier in the bill before you and removes the words "chief source of income" as it is not con sidered neces sary here having regard for the references which are within the bill before you.

The Municip al Assessment Act now provides that under certain conditions farm buildings are exempt if the chief source of livelihood of the owner is derived from grain growing, stock raising or market gardening. The words "chief source of livelihood" has caused a great deal of difficulty. It is difficult in many cases to determine the "chief source of livelihood" having regard for the somewhat intangible items that contribute to livelihood on a farm. The proposed amendments make net income the yardstick in determining wh�ther or not farm dwellings should be taxed.

A further amendment deletes the words "stock raisi ng" and substitutes the words "raising or keeping farm stock" in order to relate to the new definition of farm stock in the new bill. A further amendment deals with the question of farm corpor ations. It appears that under the existing wording if a shareholder was a farmer it was not necessary for him to establish the source of livelihood. In 1973 in a Court of Queen's Bench ac tion Abramson Cattle Company Limited in the R.

M. of Springfield the Corp oration claimed exemption for farm buildings be cause the Corporation 's chief source of livelihood was from farming though Abramson the registered and beneficial owner of all outstanding shares of the applicant had income from other sources. In his concl uding remarks Mr. ChiefJusticeT rit schler stated the following: Abramson by incorporat ing his enterprises obtains an exemption to which he might not have been entitled if he was required to qualify as an individual under

Section 30 subsection 2. But if that was not the intention of the Legislature the Act should be amended. Further sections deal with the repeal of sections in the Act complementing the amendments to

Section 15 resp ecting the making of additions to the roll when there is a change in the re gistered owner of the land. A further

section deals with the question of who may com plain to the Court of Revisi on concer ning an assessment and the propo sed amendment clarif ies the purpose for which a person may comp lain to the Court of Revision. Another amendment spells out what action a Court of Revisi on may make in respect of a comp laint. The proposed amendment makes it clear that the Court of Revision may do more than just lower or raise the assessment. For example, the Court might order the property moved from the taxable column to the exempt column or vice versa. This sect ion is in line with changes in The City of Winnipeg Act. A further amendment amends the

Schedule to the Act resp ecting the assessment of pipe lines. The present

schedule does not contemplate a maximum pipeline of more than 36 inches in diameter. The proposed amendment now reflects the size of the pipe that is being used in

231 2 BILL NO. 30 (MR. PA WLEY cont'd) . . . . . the transmi ssion lines. I commend this for approval of the House upon second reading. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-R ussell. April 9, 1974 MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-R ussell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We've heard the Minister give the explanation for ch anges in the Municip al Assessment Act. He ref erred to a particular law case that gave him in his mind justification to ch ange the Act because the intent according to the Chief Justice at that time said the Act was not clear.

We now find that the Minister is going to make it clear and the intent of the government quite obvio usly is to make it clearer in this respect, that they intend to tax. They intend to tax people, to assess them for taxation purposes and this is the intent. It's rather amusing, Mr. Speaker, when we find that this government has committed themselves to a form of taxation that they in their own way say is more equitable and yet at the same time they are not ignoring the long-established taxation methods of land taxation and land assessment.

This becomes increas ingly important at this particular time in our history, Mr. Speaker, when we find that the Minister of Education has failed miserably in finding a financial means of paying for the educational pro cesses in our provi nce ; where we find that land and munici pal assessment will be facing an increas ingly heavy burden this particular year be ca use the Minister of Educat ion has either ref used or has ignored an attempt at ch anging the Foundation Program. Mr.

Speaker, it would have been very easy for me to adjourn debate and prepare a speech, but from the remarks of the Minister today I felt that perhaps I should reply, at least I wanted to reply as an individual in this Chamber. Since I was elec ted, Mr. Speaker, I have on numerous occasions pr essed for a change in municipal assessment. This bill does not do that.

If the Minister will reca ll, when the Munici pal Act was ch anged at that time we did succeed in taking assessment out of the Municipal Act and I felt at that time that in doing that it would make the Municip al Assessment Act more readily available for ch ange. At that time the Minister indica ted, and I can't quote his words correc tly, but it was indicated at that time that the Assessment Act would be reviewed as well when we were dealing with the total municip al bill.

Now we find that the changes that he is bringing about at this time are minor, they're technical in nature, but the principle of assessment, the formula for assessment has not ch anged, and, Mr. Speaker, quite frankly I'm not too sure that I want that formula ch anged at the present time, beca use from what I can figure out this government if they did change the formula would only revise it upwar ds. Mr.

Speaker, people in rural Manitoba in particular where the ownership of land is essential to them carrying out their obligations and their respon sibilities to be individuals in soci etyJ th ey must of necessity have a fairly large real estate holding in order to have an economically viabl e operation. Operations of that nature are very vulnerable and the effect could be traumatic if assessment prac tices which were punative in nature came about. We notice - for instance one

section that the Minister has brought in at the present time, gives an indication of that, where he redefines farm stock, and I refer in particular to horses, where anybody that raises horses now, with the exception of those that are involved in a PNU operation or actually use their horses in the operation of their farm are going to be liable to have their buildings assessed if they keep a horse for riding purpo ses. And, quite frankly, Mr. Speaker , any man that keeps cattle knows full well that a horse is probably the most economical and easiest method of con trolling catt le.

I know the Member for Lakeside has a horse or two purely for that pur pose, but if he keeps a horse for riding purposes then his buildings are liable for assessment. And under the Act the Minister does not indicate whether it will be just a barn that he keeps a horse in or whether the entire farmstead will be assessed. It is very vague in that respect. I would hope that the Minister if he is going to ch ange the practice beca use a person keeps a horse, that the only building that would be involved would be the barn that the farmer keeps his horse in. But the Act does not say that.

He doesn't spell out in the ch anges whether it'll be part of the farm buildings or the total farm setting. Doesn't say whether it'll be the house or the barn or the granary , the ch anges that he pr oposes does not spell out what por tion is going to be asses sed for taxa tion purposes. Mr. Speaker, I would hope that when this bill goes to committee that he will then spell out for us and if necess ary make ch anges to identify those farm buildings that will be liable for assessment and taxation just beca use a farmer keeps a horse. Another area that concerns me, Mr .

Speaker, and this is the area dealing with Cr own land

April 9, 1974 231 3 BILL NO. 30 (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) . and those that are engaged in the teaching profession. I wonder how many teachers in the Province of Mani toba will be affected by this. And I also wonder will there be any special considerations given to those who of necessit y must reside in that locale.

When the problem that has come up before with municipal governments dealing with the question of mobile homes - I think here the Minister is actually trying to deal with a problem that has been brought to various municipal conventions over a period of time, that is the ability to assess a mobile home or whether they could just tax the land that the mobile home sits on. I know there are changes in the Saskatchewan bill or in Saskatchewan legislation where they do have the authority and I assume that that is a change that is coming in other jurisdic tions as well.

That there appears to be no place here, although the Minister may bring it out in re gulations, where a mobile home could concei vably be taxed and assessed in three different municip alities in the same year. Supposing he lived in one municipality up till May and then moved for the summer months to work for a farmer and then moved to another one for the winter months, it could be conceivable that he would have more than one location during the year. I would like to know if the Minister intends to make that asses sment on a month ly basis or on an annual basis. He hasn't told us so in the legislation.

When you talk about mobile homes it does create a problem because of the very fact that they are mobile, but I would hope that when this gets to committee that he will probably give us a greater acco untability or indicate more clearly to us whether this can be broken down into a month ly thing rather than an annual asses sment, because under the present assess ment bill or asses sment practices in this province, assess ment is done on an annual basis. I think there is an avenue here that needs further clarification and I would hope that the Minister would do that when we get to committee.

I think the Minister is asking for a little bit of trouble when he has changed things to a net income. I can see this causing a great deal of resentment and I think a very complicated pro cess in determining the qualifications on net income. At the present time, I would like to know whether the Minister intends to use as a basis the income tax returns that a farmer files as the basis for determining net income, or what other method that he would use. I would also like to know, Mr. Speaker, whether the Minister intends to apply to the Federal Government for con fidential information from the Revenue Department.

Mr. Speaker, we had considera ble discussion in this House a few years ago on privacy and the rights of the individual to confidentiality, and I am certainly concerned if the Minister is going to have the right of access to the annual income tax returns of individuals for the purpose of determining the net income that will be used for assess ment in this particular matter.

I would hope that such is not the case and I would hope that the Minister will assure this House that that information remains confidential to the Federal Government only and there will be no access of the .Assessment Branch of the Province of Manitoba to that information. Mr. Speaker, those are some of the concerns that I have. The introduction that the Minister gave to this bill unfortunately did not alleviate any of the concerns that I had and I would hope that before long our municipal committee of the Legislature will have an opportunity to deal with this bill. MR.

SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Stur geon Creek): Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member from Charleswood that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented. BILL NO. 7 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 7 has been in this Legislature for a consid erable time. We've had a wide-r anging field of debate, but Mr. Speaker, I think that my comments will be fairly short and I would like to stay fairly close to the actual contents of the bill. Mr.

Speaker, in dealing with the bill the first concern that I have, and I'm sure others have as well, is in the very first

section that the Minister put into the bill where they are going to be able to change the classification of civil servants . We have had contract employees, we've had term employees, we 've had casual employees, and the changes that the Minist er intends

231 4 April 9, 1974 BILL 7 (MR . GRAHAM Cont•d) ..... he re I think can cause a great deal of confusion . I think it would make it increasin gly easy for a switch ing and an entry into the Civil Service sort of through the back door of those that government wanted to move in that manner. I don't think that is good, Mr. Speaker. We have a Civil Service Commission setup which has oper ated in this province for many years and that Civil Service Commission is ch arged with the responsibility of bringing forward through their boarding program people who want to enter into the Civil Service , and I•m a little concerned about the ch anges that could come about by the particular

section that is the first one mentioned in Bil l 7. There's another sectio n, Mr. Speaker , that bothers me and that is the actual composition of the Civil Service Commission and the proposed ch ange to enlarge the Civil Service . The Minister doesn't say how large he•s going to make - or the Commission - he doesn't say how large he• s going to make it . He says not less than three ; does he say not mor e than 43 or not more than 63? A MEMBER: No , he does not. MR . G RAHAM: Mr .

Speaker , the Civil Service Commission I think has served well with a limited number of people on it, and I would like to know why the Minister would want to enlarge it at this time . --(Inter jection)-- He hasn •t told us why. Could it be that he has some friend s that still have not got a job yet? A MEMBER: No, I don•t think so . I don•t think he• s got that many friends . MR . G RAHAM: After five year s , Mr . Speaker, I would th ink that most of hi s friends ha ve already been put in positions that would indica te that he has looked after hi s friend s very well. But maybe not.

Maybe he still has some that he wants to put on commissions or boards . He ha sn't told us how many but he says that the composi tion of the Commission will be not less than three . I can also see a little bit of concern ; maybe some other Ministers or some other back benchers might have a particular friend that they would like on there , and maybe that is why he has left it as an indefinite number rat her than a specific number. But if ever y member on the other side was able to get one of their friend s on that would make it a 31-member Civil Service Commission, Mr.

SpeaKer, and I don•t th ink that a commission of that size would operate ver y effectivel y . A MEMBER: Could lead to problems , could lead to probl ems. MR. GRAHAM: So I would hope that when this bill gets to committee that the Minister would reco nsider and continue to operate as it is, One of my major concerns, Mr. Speaker, though , is what is going to happen to the Civil Service Commission once he has enlarged it . Beca use while on the one ha nd he wants to enlarge the Commissio n, on the other hand he wants to take away the authori ty from that commission and put it in the hands of Cabinet .

And I suggest, Mr . Speaker, that the erosion of the authority of the Civil Service Commission can only be detrimental to the Province of Manitoba . Others have spoken ver y stron gly on this point, and I'm sure other s will still speak very stro ngly about it , but I th ink it is not in the best interests of the province for members of Cabinet to be able to ch ange classifica tion, to circumvent the authorit y of the Civil Service Commission, and promote or demote as they choose . Mr.

Speaker, I can only ree mphasize that the right to change clas sifications is the respo nsibi lity of the Commission, and I would since rely ho pe that the Minister would reconsider and remove from the bill that authority that he is now giving to Cabinet . At the present time we ha ve seen that the Manitoba Government Employees Association have expressed their con cern about this bill. I th ink they have done it in a very constructive manner, and I would ho pe that the Minister, when this bill does get to commit tee , will consider very seriousl y every one of the recommendations of that employees' body.

We are finding, Mr. Speaker , every day in this Legislature that as the burea ucracy grows in this pro vince , the delegation of authority in this province becomes less and more and more concentr ated in the Lieutenant-Govern or-in-Co uncil . And I think it 's rath er a strange paradox, Mr. Speaker . I would think that as the bureaucracy grew that more and more deci sions would be taken out of the hands of Cabinet , but this government doesn•t seem to operate that way. They say we want more people around but we•ll give them less authori ty.

The decisions will be made by Cabinet not be caucus, but by Cabinet, and I feel sorr y for backbenchers sitting on the other side who have been elected in their constit uencies to take part , and they are part and

April 9, 1974 231 5 BILL 7 (MR . GRAHAM Cont•d) •.••. parcel of the governm e nt, and yet they are being circumvented by the Cabinet . I think that the backbench ers on the other side should show just as much concern about this move as members on this side do, and I would ask them to think about it quite ser iously . Mr .

Speaker, there have been occasions where other speakers have listed their various reasons for their opposition to this bill, but I would have to tell you, Sir, that the main reason that I have for being opposed to this bill is the basic reason that the Civil Service Commission is being circumvented and the decisions will be stri ctly those of Cabinet, and I cannot emphasize too strongly my opposition at this time . With those few wor ds, Mr. Speaker, I will concl ude my remarks and ho pe that other members of the House will take

part in this debate . MR . SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry . MR . SHERMAN : I wish to move , Mr . Speaker, seconded by the Honour able Member for Brandon West, that debate be adjourned. MR . SPEAKER : The honourable member ha s already spoken on the amendment. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I spoke on the main motion MR . SPEAKER : And the amendment. MR . SHERMAN : Did I speak on the amendment? MR . SPEAKER : Yes . March 11th in fact . MR . SHERMAN: No offence intended, Sir . MR . SPEAKER : Ar e you ready for the question ? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . BROWN : Mr .

Speak er, I would beg to move, seconded by the Member from Glad- stone, that we adjourn debate . MOTION presented and carr ied . MR . PAULLEY: Would you cal1 Bil1 No . 17, Mr . S peaker. MR . SPEAKER : The pr oposed motion of the Honourable the Attorney-General. The Hono�rable Member for Pembina. --(Interj ection)-- (Stand) MR. PAULLEY: Would you kindly call Bill No . 33. MR . SPEAKER : The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour . The Hon- ourable Member for Riel . MR . PAULLEY: I believe we did arrange with 36, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : I think that con cludes all the bills for second reading .

MR . PAULLEY: Would you just give me a second, Sir. MR . SPEAKER: Ve r y well. MR . PAULLEY: M r. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able the Minister of Educ ation, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honour able Member for Radisson in the Chair . . . . • . continued next page

2316 April 9, 1974 SUPPLY - CAPITAL SUPPLY MR . CHAIRMAN: Capital authority requirements. Manitoba School Capital Financ ing Authority. The Honourable Minister of Education. MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, there were just a couple of questions that were put to me last night that I did not have the opportunity to answer because of 9:00 o'cl ock having been called - Private Members' Hour.

One dealt with whether there was any federal assis tance for the co nstruction of schoo ls, and as I poin ted out at that time the only federal assi stance that we have received was one for the cons truction of our regional vocation high schoo ls and our co mmunity colleges.

And going back over the years thi s was offered under a variety, a number of arrangements co mmencing with a 5(}-50 co st- sharing arrangement for the first, and then more recently 75- 25 Federal-P rovincial, and then the last agreement between the Federal Gove rnment and the province was that whatever funds were remaining , and this was of an original amount of a total of about $50 million that was provided for the cons truction of such schools under these various cos t sharing arrangements and then in the end there were some schools co nstructed which were paid for practically entirely, if not entirely by the - out of federal support s.

One is the Brandon Regional Vocational High School , the other is Steinbach and that left about a million dollars which is not shown in this supply item, Mr. Chairman, which is being used for the development of the Red River multi-campus vocational facility.

The question was also raised with respect to , you know, is there sufficient flexibility within the Capital Supply to allow for variations in enrolment, particularly a decrea sing en rolm ent such as we've observe d in many areas, and as I did point out earlier last evening or late yesterday afternoon that this is taken into account , the reason of the fact that the maximum authority that is asked for is 25 million , but then there's $7 million that is recognized by Cabinet that may not be spent and henc e the figure is reduced accord ingly.

And this, of course the reduction may be occas ioned by changes in enrolm ent, and so forth, over the past year since the approval was given for the various cons truction projects. And then it must also be borne in mind, Mr. Chairman, that despite the declining enrolment in some areas there is still suburban developments being developed there are still areas where there is need for expansion of existing facilities by way of addition of space, for the provision of instructional space for various cour ses, and so forth, and hence that type of cons truction must continue .

It is not always desirable nor practical to transport children from wherever they may be liv:ng to wherever the vacant space may be found in our schools, and hence some compromise between the two must be worked out.

But as I mentioned , the last factor that I've mentioned probably adds some limitations or rigidity to the degree to which our building program may be completely flexible but at the same time it is recognized that changes come about and what may have been originally approved for cons truction earlier of the last fiscal year tho se changes- tho se changes in plans may have to be made, and provision has been made for that in the estimates. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Bo niface. MR . MARION: Mr. Chairman, a question to the Honourable Minister.

Yesterda y we talked about the 14 million and the disposal of same in the com ing year , and it became abundantly clear to me in some of the answers that the Minister gave, both the Minister of Educa tion and the Minister of Financ e, that presently we have $7 million that are committed to programs that are in trend of being completed. And ther e are 7 million that could or could not be required in this year's estimates. My question to the Minister is, if we are convinced that there are only 7 millions that are pr esently required, why are we requesting 14 million.

In es sence we could always bring the additional on a supplementary capital estimate ? MR . HANUSCHAK: No , Mr. Chairman , the original amount is in the order of $2 1 million of which, a portion of which--yes, that' s $21 million after making allowanc e for the capital that is generated internally and leaving - and it's only the 7 million that may or may not have to be committed and leaving the 14. But this is to provide for a maximum borrowing authority all of which we may or may not use during the fiscal year. -- (Interj ection)--Of course, Mr. Ch airman, would depend upon the rate of construction. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR . JOHANNSON: Mr. Chairman, I have several questions for the Minister of Education but before I go into tho se I do want to express my thanks to the Minister in connection with the building program that will be started at General Wolfe School. Now pr eviously there was

Apri l 9, 1974 2317 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MRo JOHANNSON cont'd ). • a bit of public dispute over this particu lar sch ool, and I publicly criticized the Minister when he was suggesting that a re novation program be carried out at Genera l Wolfe rat her than the re place ment of the old school with a new one. And I would like to co ngr atulate the Minister ; he, I think, showed a great deal of guts, courage in changing his mind, and he did approve the building of a new school at General Wolfe, and I would like to express my thanks to him.

He made the correct decision, and I would like to expr ess the thanks of the people in the comm unity to the Minister. The people of the comm unity re gard this as a vote of confidence in the co mmunity. One of the re quiremen ts of the area which I re prese nt is the upgradin g of the area.

There is some deterioration taking pl ace and when the government acts in suc h a fashion, when it provides a brand new sc hool facility , which I gather will have some publ ic facilities and some flexibility incorporated in it, this is a real vote of confid enc e in the area and the people ce rtain ly appr ec iate thi s, the people in my cons tituency and the adjoining area appreciate it. Now, I have a couple of questions for the Minister.

I would like to know at what stage the appr ovals are with reg ard to the General Wolfe project, and I'd like to have a few details on it if he could possibly provide them at this stage. I would also like to know some of the details about the proposed re novation at Daniel Mac Coll egiate and Sargent Park School; and I would like to know the stage at which those - the stage and proc eedings at which those ar e presently, and I'd appr eciate it if the Minister could give me this information. MRo CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MRo HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, firstly if I just may co mment bri efly on General Wolfe, the re ferenc e that the honour able member made to this agree ment with, or criticism of the Minister of Education, this doesn't bother me one bit. I think that once again we've demonstrated that. . . A MEMBER: We're a democracy. MR.

HANUSCHAK: That's ri ght, that we are a democratic party , and that within our party we can agr ee on basic principles of politica l philos ophy but that there are also loca l needs of constituents to be attended to, and it is a matter of attempting in some fashion to integrate one with t he other and see to it that loca l needs are provided for within the basic fr amework of the planks of our politica l platform that we operate on.

Now insofar as the reference to the change in mind with respect to Genera l Wolfe is concerned, there wer e a number of things that have happened: One, fr om year to year the Public Schools Finance Board has to set its priorities in terms of its construction program, or the re quests for school construction that come in, and these do change from year to year.

Sec ondly, the re ports that we obtain, or that we are pres ented with, re fer ence to construction, speaking of engineering and ar chitects' repor ts, and so forth, and these do change as buildings grow older and deteriorate, and henc e with the passage of time more justification could be found for the re place ment rather than renovation . We reach a point where re novation or re plac ement may be about equal in cost, and in that event it maybe mor e prudent to repl ace rather than renova te. With re spect to - now, the appro val was given to the - was co mmunicated to the Winnipeg Schoo l Div ision.

I ca nnot give the honourabl e member a re ply as to the exact stage at which the planning process is at, but I'd be happy to take the question as notice and re port to him and to the House upon re cei pt of that infor mation. With res pect to Daniel Mcintyre Collegiate and Sargent Park schoo ls, these two school s are re ally part of the overa ll area, General Wolfe, Sargent Park and Daniel Mac , and one has to consider those three as school buildings servi ng one unit and then proceed ing with one's planning accordin gly.

It was about a week ago or so that the Winnipeg School Division, re prese ntatives of the board and the senior administrative staff did meet with the chair man of the Publ ic Schoo ls Finance Board on the question of Daniel Mac, and no doubt the matter will be reconsidered by the Public School s Finance Board, and I have not received a report from the board on its re consi deration of the letter of intent for re novations to Daniel Mac; and the same cou ld be said of Sargent Park School.

But I will take both as notice and see to it that they are proceeded with as rapidly as pos sible and co mmunicate to the honourable member and to the House a progr ess re port fr om the Public Schoo ls Finance Board 's findings and my disposition of the reco mmendation made to me by the Public Schools Finance Board.

231 8 April 9, 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY lVIR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Ro uge. lVIR. AXWORTHY: Th ank you. Mr. Chairman, I ju st wanted to go back to get some clarification from the Minister in relation to this school financing sleight of hand that seems to be going on. I gather he's exp.i:essed in the course of this discus sion that in terms of capital authority there's a co mmitment for a school cons truction of $7 million in this fiscal year. --( Interjection)-- Well, let's go back to the figures then.

You have a capital authority, or are asking for a capital authority of $1 4 million according to this schedule. Now what we are trying to asc ertain is how much of that 14 million is com mitted this fiscal year for school cons truction or capital co sts, and if all of the amount is being committed then that' s fine; if it is not all being com mitted, is the money being used to pay for co mmitment s made last year , is it being used to pay for co mmitment s next year, is it being transferred to the Northern Manpower Corp s, or exactly where is it going ? That's what we want to find out.

And could the Minister try to answer that ? lVIR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. lVIR.

HANUSCHAK: Th e co mmitment s are to the expense of $21 million-- (Interjection)- $26 million - 26 million - I must review the figures for the honourable member again $26 million, less approximately something in the order of $5 million that can be ge nerated inter nally, leaving som ething in the order of 21 less seven million that on the basis of our past experience we may or may not proceed with this year. depending on the rate at which cons truction can proceed; but every cent tha t's in there is co mmitted for school construction, there's no money that is earmarked for transfer to any other branc·h, or to any other department , it's all for school construction.

Th at's the estimated cost of the approvals made last year for school cons truction for this year. lVIR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. lVIR. JOHANNSON: Mr. Speaker , the Minister of Educa tion took a couple of questions as notice with regard to detail on schoo ls in my area, and while he's taking tho se as notic e perhaps he'd take a couple of other questions as notice.

I under stand that ther e is some provision in the plans of the new General Wolfe School for pu blic facilities, that is facilities that may be used by the local co mmunity other than the school children, and I wonder if he could inform me as to what facilities are being provided for public use; to what extent is flexibility of use being built into the school plans; and finally, it's my under standing that there was some comm it ment from the Comm unity Co mmittee of funds to be used for recreation facilities for public use.

Could he confirm this, and if he could confirm this could he inform me as to what amount the Co mmunity Com mittee can provide for this facility.? MR . HANUSCHAK� Yes , Mr . Chairman, in the case of General Wolfe Schoo l, as in the case of a number of other schoo ls, particularly within the City of Winnipeg, there has been pro vision made for public use .

The percentage or the amount of space in terms of square footage I regret I cannot recall offhand - but this information I can obtain for the hon ourable member - but I do recall that there was an ass ignment of some space for public use which will not be paid for out of the Public Schools Finance Board funds of course . This would be financed in other ways . So there is provision for same . Now , it may interest the House to know and you, Mr .

Chairman , that in determining the · amount of space that should be alloted for public use, this over the past couple of years has usually been the result of community participation, community involvement, the local community of interested parents living within the area served by the particular school would meet with the school division - and this is at the local level - with the school division board and a senior administrative staff, and they would discuss the community needs , of what community needs should be provided for within the school building, that lend themselves to joint use , and provi sion for that is made .

And the same is true, as I had mentioned last night, Mr. Chairman, the same is true also of a number of other schools that were recently approved for construction during the last year.

Insofar as des igning plans that would lend themselves to flexibility of us e, in recent years the trend has been toward the open area class room method of teaching, but we try to maintain a balance between the two in our design and construction of schoo ls , being mindful of the fact that not all teachers do function with equal effectiveness in an open area situation than the traditional type of classroom, nor do all children function with equal effectiveness in bott , and hence there •s a need for a mix of the two , and that is being provided for.

April 9, 1974 231 9 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'

d) And in addition to that, Mr. Chairman, in a design of schools, and being increasingly mind ful of the need to design schools that would lend themselves to community use, therefore in the des ign as it may relate to the location of libraries, the size of library facilities, or gymnasia, and so forth, this is kept in mind to provide for easy access for the public, and also in terms of flexibility for any variation of design or expansion of the facility at any future time that may be come necessary. So these factors are kept in mind.

Insofar as commitment of recreation funds, of capital funds that may be applied toward the construction of the community recreation component of the sc hool, well this of course comes from the city.

I had mentioned last night that the Province of Manitoba by our Department of Tourism and Recreation and Cultural Affairs has committee $20, 000 to each Comm unity Com mittee, and it'll be at the discretion of the Community Committee where and how those funds are spent - well upon the advice of the Community Committee at its discret ion, yes, and subject to the approval - and all of this of course comes under the jurisd iction of the City of Winnipeg Council.

Now if there are any other funds that could be made available, these of course would be local funds raised under the jurisd iction of the City Co uncil, but from the province there is that commitment, which I mentioned yes terday and I repeat again today, from Tourism and Recreation for public use, plus whatever other sources.

But then the exact manner in which the funds are allocated, how they' re used, is a matter for decis ion at the local level and not the province, other than the fact that we are willing to offer whatever expert advice that may be neces sary to assist the school division in the conduct of its planning. MR . CHAU:tMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Bo niface. MR . MARION : Mr . Chairman, I would like to clarify a comment I made to the Minister yesterday with respect to the St .

Bon iface School Division when I said that there were roughly 10, 000 students presently in the division and the five-year program foresaw a decrease of roughly 40 percent . Although these figures were correct there is a fact that I forgot to mention, and I took some time to be informed on this, and there's a new development called the Southdale Development which will cause an increase in the student populatio n, so that the actual decrease in total will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 to 25 percent : MR .

CHAIRMAN: Manitoba School Capital Financing Authority $14 million - passed; Manitoba Hospital Capital Financing Authority $18 million passed ? - The Honourable Member for Lakes ide . MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman. I wonder ju st a very brief question - whether or not the Minister is in a position to give us an indication of whether or not the new - whether contained in these capital requirements is the balance of the new construction costs having to do with the expans ion at Concordia, and if so, is there any final progress acco unts to be made on that ? Is that on

schedule and moving along ? MR . CHAIHMAN: The Honourable Minister of Finance . The Minister of Health and Social Development . MR . MILLER: Mr . Chairman, I'm informed by the Minister of Finance , who has to leave , that there is an amount in the Supply here for the completion of Concor dia . MR . ENNS: Thank you . MR . CHAIHMAN: Manitoba--the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . BHOWN: Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

In order to save some time I wonder would the Minister be able to give us a breakdown as to where this money is required, so that we don't have to go on fishing expeditions and find out - just the various amounts that will be spent in each project . MR . CHAIHMAN: The Minister of Health and Social Development . MR. MILLER: Well, Mr . Speaker, I don•t have the full information but from what I gather it's this. The hospitals can of course float their own debentures .

While the hospital is under construction usual ly the hospital, if it isn•t too large a project, does its financing through the bank and then if they cannot issu e their debentures on private ::: ales , on the open market, which sometimes gives them a better rate of interest than what they could get through the hospital capital authority, then they approach the Health Services Commission who has to then pick up the debentures.

So that what we have here is a replacement simply of funds to keep the authority going whereby the Health Services Commission can pick up these debentures as they come due and when they come due . Concordia was an example of that.

2320 April 9, 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY (M.R . MILLER cont•

d) I believe there is--(Interjection)--There is some figures comin g ? There is some figures com ing, okay. Now I believe there is--Hamiota is mentioned here . There 's some work going on at Misericordia, it's being planned. Ther e is Br andon, the power house and laundry , and an extended treatment facilit y there . The Concordia I just mentioned. I believe the Gra ce , which just completed a wing. I think there is a debenture issue there. Portage la Prairie wher e there 's some work apparently going on. The St .

Boniface , there 's the extended care , I think it's call ed, the extended care wing which is due to open very shortly , and wher e there 's an amount of about 4. 8 million indicat ed, plus additional for equipment. There 's Thompson where the hospital the new addition, if it's not open, it's due to open very very very shortly . I believe in Souris as well there is some money earmarked her e . There 's the laundry facility at the Selkirk Hospital - and these are the indications .

Whether or not that full amount will in fact be picked up this year depends on whether the proj ec t-3 will be completed within the year, and whether or not the debentures will be picked up by the capital authority, the Commis sion, but the capital authority has to be voted in order to have the money available . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Mr .

Chairman, before I make my observatio ns, I wonder if the Minister could confirm the impre ssion I•ve just gotten from what he•s read that in the estimates of 18 million of capital there are no significant expansionary proj ects include d. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Ministe r of Health and Social Devel opment. MR . MILLER: Well , I don•t know what the member might consider expansionar y . These are proj ects that are on track and will be comin g to concl usion. The Concordia is fairl y ex tensive , the 200-bed extension at St.

Boniface is fairl y extensive , the Health Sc iences Centre , there 's about five million dollars approximately so these are -I would hardly say they•re small. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. M.R. ASPER: I wonder if the Minister could indicate how many acute care beds will be on the market say one year from today when the capital authority is conc luded, or 11 months from today, that are not there today . What will the increment be in acute care beds in the say, Greater Winnipeg or Manitoba ? MR . MILLER: I couldn •t answer that question from the information here , Mr . Chairman. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR . BltOWN : Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether any of this money will be spent on pers onal car e homes where we seem to be having a great need. I believe that this is one of the areas that have caused the difficulty in the acute bed situation, and now that the freeze is lifted I would hope that some of this money would be allocated for person al care homes . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Health and Social Devel opment. MR . MILLER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there will be certain ly moneys made available for thi s.

I•m trying to see if I can spot any here on this particular cha rt . But I know that authority was rece ntly, or approval was rece ntly given to one in Souri s, I believe , one in Delorain e , and so these woold--I don•t know when the,money would be needed for these , but authority has been given, and so they're in the pr ocess . But this lists the actual authorities of those that are in pro cess or have been construct ed. MR . BROWN: I wonder if the Minister could give me any indication whether there will be any personal care homes, any new construction in the City of Winnipeg ? M.R.

MILLER: Of per sonal care homes ? In the City of Winnipeg? The Seven Oaks Hospital certa inly has one component of about 100 beds of personal care homes , but the authority for that wouldn•t be needed for this year. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR . MARION: Mr. Chairman, it•s not often that a member from the opposite side will be sad that the government has reduced the capital authority requirement but in this case I must advise the Minister that I am ver y sad that when he gave the breakdown he did not in clude any amounts of money for the Seven Oaks Hospit al.

Now he has in essence provided a couple of answers that $2, 500 , 000 next year. . . I •m pleased that I •m getting all of this information said , nonetheless it still leaves me perplexed because since the advent of Unic ity back in September and October of 1971, or rather October and November of 1971, the City of

April 9, 1974 2321 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR. MARION cont•d ) . . . Winnipeg has made what I think is a rather conclus ive case on the requirements for a hospital in the north part of the City of Winnipeg. I think that the Minister being a representative from that area does not need any convincing from me, Mr. Chairman. But I think that there now at this stage becomes a number of people who are per plexed with the lack of speed with which we are really progre ssing with this new hospital facility .

I think that we have proven in this House rather conclusivel y at the beginning of the session that there are very definite shortages in the acute bed requir ement. I think tha t we have also proven conclusi vely that at times, and I agree not always but at times, there are shortages that are dangerous in the emer gency beds situation.

I think that with the City of Wi nnipeg being on record, and having co-operated for these past close to three years now for the culmination or the br inging into bein g the Seven Oaks Hospital, it would seem to me that the Minister at this time would have been pushing with all of his prestige for the hospital to be brought in line. I think the City of Winnipeg has , and I would hke to re iterate for the record the kinds of participation and willingness it has shown to bring this hospital into line.

It has agreed to particip ate in the capital cost program up to 20 percent, notwithstanding the fact that the vast majority of the councill ors , and I share their feelings that a municipal government should not be resp onsible for any part of the capital cost , but notwithstanding this because of the real necess ity for this hospital they've agreed to this 20 percent participati on. They have agreed and hired an executive director way back in 1972 - I think the date is somewhere in September of 1972, they hired an executive dir ect or .

I think that this furth er indicates the importance stressed by Winnipeg Council on the need for this hospital facility . At the outset they reque sted a hospital with 200 beds so that it could be properly accredited. Now the story is that we are down to rou ghly 100 beds , and we're not too sure of where the'-accreditation will be but however in the plans submitted to date there were engineering, architectural provisions made for future expansion which would probably brin g the hospital to its full complement of 200 beds .

In the last developments it•s sad to have to report that --(Interjection)- -Is that the time ? Even when I have him in the Chair I have proble ms with him. We•ve had the distressin g news that all of these architectural engineer ing prov isions that are incorporated in the initial stages of construction are now under query , and it•s more than probable that the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission will not go along with these pr ovisions , which means that you have a

section of the City of Winnipeg that will go without adequate kind of protection because from some of the figures that I presentl y have , we are pr esently looking at an area that compr ises 11, 250 people ; there are future developments that will come on stream within the next 10-year period, most of them within the next 5-year perio d, that will necessitate, or that will brin g about further population, a furth er population of 34 , 000 people . So you'r e looking at roughly an area that will comprise 45, 000 people and you•ve got a hospital with 100 beds and no provis ions for increasin g the faciliti es .

I think that some of the other points that are rather distress ing are the fact that we now have a reduction in the or iginal space that was agreed to following consultation by the hospital board itself, the City of Wi nnipeg and the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission a reduction that is the equivalent of roughly 35 to 40 percent of the total squar e footage in the hospital. This , I am told by those people who are now trying to bring this hospital into being, is totally unaccept able . Now, I think, Mr . Chairman, it' s important that the Minister try to provide us with some of the answer s.

Are we going to end up with an accredited hospit al ? Is the govern ment taking a second look, or is the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission taking a second look at this hospital now that a great deal of footwork has been done, and a great deal of expense has been encoun tered ?

Because other than the hi ring of the execut ive direct or , the architectural firm has been appointed, there has been a quantity surveyor firm hired, there have been a number of functional studies made, brought to a certain point where everyone concern ed, except the Hospital Commission feels that it would permit this new facility to meet all of the demands that will be made of it within the next 10 years .

It seems to me that we should have - if we now agree that it is two years since initially, two years and better, since initially we started this proj ect ; it is apparent that there is a great deal of dragging of feet happening - and I think that perhaps the Minister would like to advise us why this is happening. When I say dragging the feet I can't help but say that on November 13th

2322 April 9 , 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR. MARION cont' d). . . the architectural program complete with schematic cost estimates and the report of the -- what do you call that?--quantity sur veyor firm has been in to the Commission, it was felt that there would be a rapid reply, but this reply is still fort hcoming. There have been meetings with senior staff; there were meetings with the board of the Commis sion itself where all of the distressing news came about whereby the rules of the game were then being changed.

I think it would be in order for the Minister to bring us to date on the reasons for all of this foot dragging so that we can know what the plans are in view of the kinds of problems that we face this spring. Now I s!l.y this in a non-par tisan way.

I am not direc tly affected by the hospital in that area but I do feel that a great deal of cred ibility hinges on a decision by the government in this case because a great deal of faith has been placed in the government and its agency, the Hospital Services Commission, that this hospital would be brought in line much sooner than now it appears, because it would seem that we're probably still three, four, or even more years away from bringing this hospital on stream and it would seem that when - going back to October and November of 1971 the target date then ref erred to was the fall of 1975 or the spring of 1976, and there' s no doubt in my mind that we will not reach those target dates.

MR. MILLER: I thank the Honourable Member for St. Boniface for making an excellent speech on my behalf. It reminds me of a speech that I made in this House. I would like to give him some back history th ough. I was involved somewhat in the Seven Oaks Hospital in its con ception back in 1964 and thanks to - I think I can take credit for that - I convinced the Hospi tal Commission of the day to land bank 25 acres in 1964 so that the site would be available when the time came. He gives some interes ting figures on the growth of the area.

I recall that at that time as well and back in 1970 I estimated that the increase would be around 35, 000 by that time, and of course it didn't come about. It could be that the growth now will perhaps reach the figures indicated by the Member for St. Boniface. But in any case whether there' s another 10, 000 people or 5, 000 is not important.

You know you don't build a hospital like you do an apartment block. _ The method of building a hospital in Manitoba is that once a decision iri .principle is reach ed, the people who are behind the hos pital are advised to hire a director or an executor, executive director, and then they proceed to prepare schematics a.nd functional programs of how they conceive the hospital. It' s then brought to the Commission and the Commission staff work on it jointly with the hospital people ; they meet, they disagree, and sometimes they agree .

Because there isn't any group anywhere when asked to present plans of a hospital, or any edi fice for that matter, don't ask for the best, the largest, the most, you know, the Taj Mahal if they can get it, and I don't blame them for it.

I know when I was in education I found that there was a great deal of flexibility allowed to the architect and as a result costs were rising very rapidly ; and you can't fault the architect because he wants to build something that he can leave to posterit y as his monument; and similarly in the case of hospitals you ca n't blame them also if they are trying to build very grand buildings. And so in every hospital and in every building there' s always the tug of war that goes on between those who in the final analysis have to pay for it and those who would like to see a facility with everything.

Now I'm satisfied that what is going up in Seven Oaks - 20 0 beds - will more than meet the needs of the people of Greater Winnipeg, because it' s not simply confined to the Winnipeg North. Patients most often go where their doctors practi se. If my own doctor happens to pract ise in St. Boniface Hospital and if I have to be hospitalized, then I'll end up at St. Boniface Hospital because that's where he does his practising irrespective of where I live, and that is one of the reali ties. The Hospital Commission has been dealing with this.

They met as recently as two or three weeks ago I believe, the staff did; they've examined some of the plans. I am advised that the plans according to the Commission staff are somewhat exaggerated or a little too rich, and suggestions have been made to cut back so that they're in line with the size of square footage of other hospitals for the same type of fac ilitie s. I believe a meeting was held with a board . but that was simply a meeting to exchange views; I don't think there was anything firm on that one.

The board has asked to meet with the Committee of, Cabinet Committee, and they will be meeting with us - I believe it' s this week or next week, I'm not sure - but cert ainly

April 9, 1974 2323 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR. MILLER cont'd) ... it's the Commission in the final analysis that has to make the recom mendation to government, and when they make the recommendation they have to be sure that the recommendation they're making stands up to scrutiny, and stands up to criticism, and stands up to standards which they can defend. It's very easy to spend 30 or 40 million dollars if one simply goes along with everything that's asked for, but on the other hand to be practical one has to look at the total co st of the facility, not ju st capital costs, but also the operating cost.

Because the operating costs are really what in the long run affect the draw on the Con solidated Fund. Depending on the design of the building, depending on the space allotment, the maintenance of it, and so on, the operating costs can be enormous if the building is designed in su ch a way that it is cos tly to maintain and to operate. And these are the facts that have to be taken into acco unt by the commi ssion.

They're not dragging their feet; they are looking at a very complex and sophisticated building, which is a hospital; they have to be very careful when they examine these; it takes a great deal of time by people who are knowledgeable in the field - I do n't claim to be, I never have been; I therefore have to be guided by them, and government no doubt in the end will be guided by them. With regard to the question of the City of Winnipeg I would like to make some comment on that. The legislation today requires that the local authorities put up 20 percent of the equity.

Years ago it could be the local authority or it could be any--the moneys raised by private, by a drive for private funds. In recent years that source has somewhat dried up and so the attempt by the ratepayer by-law in the past, or now by a resolution in council, the councils can vote this money - that's a requirement.

Now when the City of Winnipeg, when the member says the City of Winnipeg has approved of this particular plan and they are agreeable to paying 20 percent I have to tell him that if the City of Winnipeg isn' t prepared to put up the 20 percent of whatever the final cost is, then the responsibility is the City of Winnipeg's. The Metropolitan Council prior to the advent of Unicity, the Metropolitan Co uncil did agree to pick up the cost, 20 percent cos t of Concordia Hospital, the 20 percent cost on Victoria Hospital, this isn't some thing new.

On the ot her hand this particular city council has to date refused to participate in the program, the building program which is taking place at the Health Science Centre, the installa tion of a completely new steam plant to operate all four components, and to date they haven't done so. But until the Act is changed the City is required, as is every other munic ipality in Manitoba, to put up its share.

So when the member says they've agreed to put up 20 percent I suggest to him that this isn' t a grand iose gesture on the part of the City of Winnipeg but a requirement that they put up this money or else the program simply can't go ahead, that's the requirement today. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. .Boniface. MR . MARION: Mr. Speaker, I think there are two other comments, or two questions, I would like to ask of the Minister with respect to the Seven Oaks project.

Can the Minister verify if both the pediatric and the obstetric departments have now been removed out of this hospital, because I think they have. With respect to the comment made on the financ ial par ticipation of the munic ipal government, I rea.lize that the Act calls for it, but I also realize and I think that the Minister is probably sympathetic to the stand that I take, that the financial responsibility although it is there for the munic ipal government to honour, I think it's a most unjust and unfair one.

I think that the means with which a municip al government can finance the kind of project that he referred to a while ago can be one that is rather scary because the total project at the Health Science Centre and the - not the pumping station but the power station is one that really is mind boggling to paraphrase someone. I think that you could be talking in both the power station and the Health Sciences Centre undertaking $150 million - (Interjection) --a rather huge sum nonetheless, and one that would scare any kind of municipal government, particularly one that now has all sorts of restraints.

I realize that the former metropolitan corporation had no hesitancy in underwriting certain hospital programs as you mentioned, but I think that one should look at that and I'm not overly convinced, and naturally it is a personal opinion, but I'm not overly convinced that the former metropolitan corporat ion at all times displayed financial rationale that I could support. But I think that I would like the Minister if he can to advise us about the pediatric and the obstetrical departments that are now really under certain scru tiny in this project.

2324 April 9, 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I cannot give specif ic confirmation of it. I do believe that the member is correct. There was some question raised by the Commission and the staff with regard to obstetrics, I think, and pediatrics as well. This came about I believe - this has been a question for some time and I think it sort of surfaced rece ntly when the report - I think it' s called the Peddle Report of the MMA on the obstetrica l beds, and their recommendation with regard to obstetrical beds.

As well I believe the fact is that and I hear that the under utilization of obstetrical beds at the Health Science Centre for example is posing a serious problem because of the drop in birth rate, and therefore the Health Services Commission I can see would quite properly question an obstetrical

section in the Seven Oaks Hospital. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKEN ZIE: ... I have just a very brief question to the Honourable the Mini ster. I wonder in the capital requirements that he gave to us, is the Roblin Hospital, which has been on the drawing board for some time, are those capital requirements included in those figur es ? MR . MILLER: I haven't got the figures here. Where 's the book? Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I don't have that information ; I haven't got the book. Well perhaps I could get the in formation for the member and pass it on to him. MR.

CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker, I join my colleague the Member for St. Boniface in expr essing some concern over the fact that the capital estimates for health, or for the development of hospital services, is down by almost 50 percent from last year, which is indicative - it's down from $30 million to $18 million. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Minister of Labour says it's not; I'm only looking at a piece of paper which they've handed out to us which shows the capita l spending down from 30 to 18. --(Interjec tion)-- Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we are used to that tortured kind of logic from the government. But, Mr. Speaker, I know it is going to be difficult today because the Honourable Minister for Labour is in obviously good spirits and wanting �to communicate as much as he can, but if he'll wait I'll certainly be happy to listen to him. Mr. Speaker, the issue of the quality of medical treatment for the people who are ill, or for the people who require extended care, is one which does not divide this House at all except on the question of whether or not it' s being achieved in a way which is satisfac tory to community standards .

Now this session began on a very sour note on this subject. You may recall that the Friday after the Speech fr om the Throne the question was asked by my co lleague the Membe r fr omAss ini boia as to what the Minister of Health was doing relative to a critical shortage of hospital beds, acute care hospital beds in the City of Winnipeg, to which the Minister resp onded that he denied that there was any such critical shortage.

And over the weeks that followed, and thanks to some pretty fine investigative reporting by members of the news media, it became pretty clear that there was a problem and that that problem had not come to the attention of the Minister, or that the Minister did not regard it with the severity that we did. --(Interj ection) --Mr. Chairman, I hear the Minister of Finance talking about a few articles that were written.

I think at one point in the debate he made the incredible statement that, in spite of the fact that at the time he was making those statements people were lying in acute care emergency centres waiting for beds, he made the statement that there was no shortag e of hospital beds, there was no crisis, there was a political tempest in a teapot, and such problem as existed was a problem that had been created by the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, that's a staggering thing for him to say. We didn't create the short age of hospital beds ; we didn't even wish it on the governm ent.

The government is the author of its own misfortune in this respect, and prop oses to take no defini tive action, no specia l action, to alleviate the problem . When the session began and the questions began coming and we saw the film, the television reports of people having been kept on stretchers for four days at a time when they were in pain and requiring emergency service, let alone elective service, which is only lesser, in degree, Mr . Chairman, we have the government steadfastly ref using to face the fact that the problem existed.

Now let' s go back to June 1973, because it isn't correct for the Minister to say as he did in this House that the problem existed last winter also - it didn't exist last winter. There was a very sound reason why it didn't exist. It didn't exist until we brought nursing home care under medicare "' and that was a worthwhile move. It was one that was unanimously supported

April 9, 1974 2325 CAPITAL SUPPLY (MR. ASPER cont'd) ... in this House, one which was urged by this House upon the government before it brought it in. But the government took no projective action whatever between the announcement of per haps last winter, or cer tainly early spring, that Medicare would now cover nursing home care; they took no significant steps between then and the crisis of Febr uary of this year to create extended care facilities which would obviously - anybody could figure out - would be flooded by bringing it under Medicare, which we say was an appropriate act.

And so by the winter of this year--(lnterjection )--Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Member from Swan River suggests perhaps there was election motives in that speedy announcement of nursing home care coming under Medicare . Well, Mr. Chairman, I have to conclude that he's correct because the pr omise was made, the election was held, and vir tually no action whatever to head off what anyone with foresight could recognize would be an overcr owding because extended care patients could not be moved out of hospitals into nursing homes that didn't exist. And what's worse, Mr.

Chairman, the government imposed a freeze on the construction of new nursing home facilities even though it means peanuts in dollar terms to the government, because the Federal Government pays the shot in the main - they were not extending the facilities for senior citizens during that seven or eight or nine month period during which the shortage aros e. And so we got to the winter of 1974 and we found that we have a crisis, and if it isn't a crisis, because I happen to believe, Mr.

Chairman, that health is not negotiable, it is not a political issue, it is not a political football as the Minister of Health has sugge sted to us in this House, it is not an issue over which politicians try to score "brownie points" as he has suggested, it is an issue which deeply troubles every member of the community. Now, Mr. Chairman, there were two things, and are two things required: One is the creation of additional extended care beds to take care of those people who now thro

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-84
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 84.pdf
Language	en
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