Volume XLI Monday !'ROH;F;ry OF Ni:\','i-"CitiNDI,.MJl; LEGISL.ATlVE Llb'IViR'1t PLEASE I~ETVRN Province of Newfoundland FORTY ~FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush Number 15 19 June 1989 '

The House met at 2:00p.m. MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! Minister of Works, SE!rViCE!S and Transportation. MR. GILBEin: Mr. SpeakE!r, beforE! we have Orders of the Day would you perrni t rn~~ to ask t.he House to extend sympathy to the family of the late Hugh F. Coady, who d:i ed OVE!r ' the WE!E:~kE!nd and was bur.i.ed today. Mr. Coady was a formE!r Clerk of the House, and he worked with the various mE!dia, as an announcer with CBC and VOCM, beforE! he graduated fr·om D a 1 h o u s i e wi . t h hi s Law De g r e E! .

I thoi n k it would bE! appropriate if lAJe sE•nt a JTIE!S sage of sympathy to h.is family. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. fhe Opposition House Leader, I am sorry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: No . offenCE! . MR . SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, we, of course, on this side of the HoUSE! would likE! to be associated with the remarks of thE! Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. I recall having somE:~ association, not close but some assoc.iatton with Mr.

Coady when I was SpE!aker, a decade ago now I guess, and he was always considered to be a valued public servant; certainly a well-respected individual in the Province, and certainly a L746 JUnE! 19, 1989 Vol X L.I well-respected Clerk of the House. We would like to associated with any message that Your Honour might send on bE!half of members. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! Chair wi 11 deal with it appropriately. Before dealing with the routine of the day, I JA.Jould likE! t.o ru1E! wit.h respect to the potnt of priv.ilE!ge raised by thE! hon. thE! Oppos:i.t:ion House Leader on Frtday, June 16.

I have given careful consid1:!1nat:.ion to the points rnade by th e hon. rnembE!r. I have also exanr.i.n ed l::h E! relevant Hansard conta:.i.ning t.h€:! record of the various exchange s that have taken place on thi s issUE!. I conclude:• l:hal: no pr· i.111a facie case of brE!ach of pr·:i.vt:l.E!9E! has b~:~en E!Stablished, mainly for two r E! as on s : F :i. r' s t.J. y , I hav E'! determined that the questions and answers were at c ro ss purpo ses . The questioning seemed to be leaning towards whether' there wa s a Minute of Counci .l, dnd th e answers seerrdngly to deaJ. w:i.th thE! policy on ferries.

If the hon. membE•rs w:i11 J.ook at Hansard, they would see that there is a very dtstinct cross-purpose aJ.J. thE! way through, and that the questions rE!alJy lacked prE!Ciston and t he: ~ answers accordingly were of the type when a question la cks precision . But, more importantly, I rule that there was no prima facie case, based on the opinion by E!Xperts, that a point of privi1E!9E! cannot be bas~~d, or canned: be made on the prE!Ifl:lse that a rrJE!rnber mjslE·d thE! House.

It could be a point of order, but it is cer ·tainJy not a point of privilege and I refer han. members specifically to Maingot, and Meingot is certainly No. 15 R74 .6

regardE!d as an expert. Meingot-on Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, page 205. Based on this authority and others, I would rule that it was a dispute between various han. mE!ITtbers wi.th rE!Spect to matters of fact. But I do want to say that I do consider it a serious point of privilege, and I would certainly caution han. ministers, in particular, when we are dealing with questions, to ensure that we give them serious consideration and, by the same token, to mE:~rnbE•rs asking the questions, to make sure that their questions are precise and that they elicit precise answers. 0 0 0 MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the mE!mber for St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Mr. SpeakE!r, I would like at this time to ask the Legislature, because of happenings over the weekend, to send letters of congratulations to Joy Burt who shattored thrE!e national and commonwealth records over the weekend. Certainly Miss Burt does herself proud for Newfoundland and Labrador. Also, in the same competition Basil Simpson and Walt Forsey did very well, as well. Also, Mr·. Speaker, as it pertains to congratulations, I think that congratulations are also in ordE!r· for TE!rry Humber who tJJas drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers.

I think this is a first. SOME liON. MEMBERS: L747 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI That is Frank Humber. MR. PARSONS: Frank Humber. I am sorry about the first name, Your Honour. [ think this is a first for Newfoundland and Labrador, and I think congratulations are in order. I would ask the hon. House, under your dir·ection, ~):J.r-, to give unanimous consent. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: We, too, Mr. SpE!aker, wou1d J::ikE! to add our support. l~o bol:.h l·:l'lOS<:! athlE!b'!S.

ThE! rnot:l.on by lhu ho11. member to send congratulations to both Joy Burt and Frank Humber, who are outstanding athlel:-.es in thE! CornE!r Brook ---Bay of Island~; area, WE! liJOUld VE!ry lllUCh like l:.O support and make unanimous thP motion by the member. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: 'The-han .--the member for Bur:l.n Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: While we are at it, I am surE• LhE! minister and the member for St. John 1 s East lJ.dJ.J agrE!E! to include Albert Anstey, who just won t-.he National Dart Champions hip and :l. s seeded third in the world right now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers No. 15 R74-7

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, hon. members u.Ji.ll recalJ. my statement in the House last Thursday in which I outlined in some detail measures being taken by my department, in co-operation with the Fishermen 1 s Union and the private sector, to help alleviate the cod glut in areas where processing and freezing facilities are currently engaged in the caplin fishery. At that ttrne, it was felt that the initiatives announced would be adequate to look after surplus cod landings. However, it has since become evident that addittonal measures will have to be taken.

Ftsher -men in the SouthE!rn Avalon area were reporting large landings of cod last weE!k, substantial quantities of which had to be discarded because of the processing plants inability to handle more product. Mr. Speaker, after discussing the problem extensively with the private sector and many of the fishermen affE!CtE!d, it was agreed that additional measures are necessary to cope with this problem. Last Friday evening, officials of my department concluded arrangements with Newfound Harvesting Limited to have their freezer trawler, the Polar Storm dispatchE!d to St..

Mary 1 s Bay for the purpose of buying directly from the fishermen their surplus cod landings. The Polar Storm has the capacity to process up to 60 tonnes of cod per day with a holding capacity of approximately 700 tonnes. The fish will be dressed (head on, L 74 .8 June 19, 1989 VoJ. XLI gutted) for distribution to processing plants. The Polar Storm will be available for a l:.IJJO week peri.od and any E!XtE!nsi.on beyond that period will require thE! mutual consent of NE!Wfound Harvesting Limited and the Department of Fi.sheries. The prices paid to fishermen will be union negotiated and thE!

J.ocation of the vessel u.J:ill be detE:~rrninc~d by the Department of Fisheri.es. Mr. SpE!aker, on Saturday aftE•rnoon I visib:~d the Southern AvaJ.on arE!a, incJuding, of coursE!, S·t :. Mary 1 s -- The Capes, and talkE!d to a number of fishermen. all of whom appeared to be rE!asonably confident that the injtiatives t a k e n b y m y d e p a r i: ITI c~ n i: a n d b y L h E! private sector, and lhe union, would be very beneficial towards handJ.ing surpJ.us cod J.andings in their area. I believe the measures announced Jast Thursday and thE! statement :.

I have read in this House today clearly indicate this governrnE!nt' s commitment to alleviate the problems resulting from the cod glut situation prE!Sently affect·.ing our fishE!Y'Y· Given the fact that a reduction in groundf:ish quotas is irnrninenl:, this goVE!rnrnent i.s cornmitE!d to a full utilization of all the fish harvested by our fishermen as well as that of the otherwise underutilized stock. Therefore, WE! intend everything possible to that no fish is dumped want of a markc~t or i:he access to processi.ng freezing capabilities . to do ensure~ for· thE! lack of and/or I should add, Mr.

Speaker, that the exi.sti.ng problem is caused not as much by the glut but by virtUE! No. 15 R'/4 .8

the fact that most of the processing plants, which would otherwise be involved in the processing or freezing of fish, are now being used for the purposes of freezing and processing caplin. Hopefully, once the caplin fishery comes to an end and the caplin have all been harvested and processed and frozen, things will get back to normal. In thE! meantime, this vessel should go a long way towards alleviating that problem. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKE!\: ·=ni"E;---"ho'i1"~- the Opposition. MR. IUDEQUT: LE!ader Thank you, Mr. Speaker . of tlw Mr .

Speaker, I havE! a fair amount of understanding of the problem the Minister and the Department face, but I cannot help but recall that year after YE!ar, around this time of the year, when the han. the Minister was over here, he would take great pains from day to day to lash out at thE! government of the day for failing to make adequate arrangements to handle excess fish during this particular . time of the year. One of the things the hon. Minis l:.E!r was no ted for in those days, in the days when he was here lashing out at us, was, 1 Why cannot the Provincial Minister of Fisheries use his authority under thE!

Fish Inspection Act to force processors in this Province to always buy and process a certain percentage of groundfish? 1 That is in Hansard, day after day, t."i. me after time, Mr. Speaker. Nou.J the minister is in a position - MR. W. CARTER : L74-9 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI No, no. MR. RIDEOUT : That is thE!rE!, Mr. SpeakE!r.

I have looked at it on a dozen and one occasions over the last several years, the Minister over here demanding that the Minister of the day use his authority under the Fish InspE!Ction Act 1 to fo1nce the private sector, to force processors to buy a certain percentage, 1 was the way hE! always put it, 1 a certain amount oF groundfish, E!Ven though the caplin problem was on. 1 We are pleased that there has been sorne ar'rangE!ITIE!nl:. 1nadr:• IAJ"il:h l..hE! Polar Storm through Newfound liarvest.ing. This is nothing 11PIAJ.

As a ITiclti:E!Y' of fact:, Mr. ~)pE!akE!r', when the previous admin"i.stration gave a loan guarantc'!E! to NE!Wfound Harvesting to help purchase this particular VE!SSE!l, onE! oF t.'hE! condi t.ions of t.ha t. l.oan guaranb:H.~ was that the vessel was to be made available during glut periods in aJ.J. parts of NE!Wfound1and and Labrador to ht=!lp a11E!V.iate l:ht=• glut. So I arn glad to s E'E! that the Minister has taken up on an ini U .ative we put therE! for' h:1 m, but I cannot say that he has created any ne1AJ initiaU.UE!S sinCE! he became Minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear', hE!ar! MR.

SPEAKER : The Minister of Social Services . MR . EFFORD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure today to present the following statement to the House of Assembly: I wish to advise my Colleagues No . 15 1n4-9

that effective today, June 19, 1989, Exon House has ceased to provide residential care to individuals with developmental delays. All persons who have lived in Exon House in the past are now residing in communities across the Province. This marks the culmination of efforts, starting with the phase-out of the Children 1 s Home in 1983 to eJ.iminatE! thE! need for institutional placement for children and adults who have developmental delays.

Concurr·ent efforts have be:~E!n made to deveJ.op corrnnunity resources to allow for the re -integration of these indjviduals and continued co1nrnun.i.ty presence on behalf of others. In this regard, thE! DepartmE!nt has established Residential Alternatives including SpeciaJ. Foster Homes, Co -operative Apartments, Group Homes and Developmental Maximization Units. Support services such as a Behavior Management Services, Early Intervention and Respite Services assist families in maintaining their members at home.

My DE!partmE!nt has a commitment t.o developing the least restrictive alternatiVE! for individuals who have a developmental delay. Efforts will continue, Mr. Speaker, to enhance the quality of life for individuals and to ensure that community integration is optimal. MR. SPFAKFR : The han. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER : Mr . Speaker, WE! on this side are pleased to SE!E! that Exon House is 1..'750 June 19, 1989 Vol XU finally closed. We are pleased with thE! MinistE:~r 1 s statement.

It is something that has been go:i.ng on for a numbE!r of years, that Lue on this side of the House can take a gr·eat deal of crc:!cLi.t for, because we initiated this process. It is right, Mr . SpeakE!r, that Exon House is gone, and it is a credit to the former administration. Mr.

Speaker, I wouJ.d J.ike to point out one thing, though: These students who are deveJ.oprrtE!ntalJ.y deJ.ayed, as thE:! minister says, 1.~o1ilJ. be or arE~ .in spE!Cial fosl:E!r horllE!S and co-operative apartments and oth er thjngs of lhat Jike across th e Province, and we mu st. be surE· Lha ·l: this is in no way a cos L sav ing moVE!, because, Mr. Spr:.'aker, l:'.ht:! i. n t. E! n t i. o n h e r e i s t o g j v e. b c t t E~ r serviCE! to thE! developiiiE!ntally deJayE!d and thE! hand:i.cappc::•d of th·is Province. A l r e a d y , r..., r .

S p e a k E! r , wE! h a v e s o ~=~ ,., cutbacks for tr ·aining and employment of developmentaJ.ly delayed and handicapped peopJ.e in this budget, so I would l.~oJarn the government that this should not be just a moVE! to get r·"id of Exon House to save money, thi.s move should be for the betterment of the people who are most disadvantaged in our society. Mr. Speaker, we welcomE! thE! announcement and WE! do hopE• that the government will make sure that the various foster homes, co-operative apartments and group homE!S will. bE! properJ.y funded and properly managed, wi l:h the proper type of support people.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Oral Questions No. 1'j 1n~1o

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKFR: The han. the Leader of the Opposition . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the han. the Premj er. In view of the fact that in 1987 the Premier, then Leader of the Opposjtion argued that the former Minister of Health, Dr. ColJins, should rE!sign from Cabinet because of his interest jn property that was then leasod to l:he goVE!rnm~<:~nt, and in vielJ.J of the fact that the Premier has admitted to the media that the present situation facing his Minister of Forestry (Mr. FLight) is similar in all circumstances to the Dr.

Collins 1 case, and in view of the fact that the Minister of Forestry has indicated publicly that he told the Premier of the existence of this set of circumstances before his appointment to Cabinet, would the Premier tell the House how he could, in such a short period of months, demand the resignation of one person from the Cabinet, for the set of circumstances that I have just outlined, and yet proceed to appoint another pE!rs6n in similar circumstances to his own Cabinet knowing beforehand what those circumstances were? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier .

PREMIER WELLS: It is easy the facts are simple. to E!Xp1ain, just statE! correctly. The facts The position that I LEd June 19, 1.989 Vol XLI took u.dth rE!spect to Dr. Collins and his situation at the i~irne lAJas that he either must. resign or hE! must dispose of the assei:s. He must do onE! or the othE!r. 1 arn glad to see hon. mernbE!rs acknowledge that. So when the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans told me what his situation, was my statement to him was you must dispose of those assets or the - MR. SIMMS: Or rE!sign. PREMIER WELI.S : Ju~;t onE! second .

You must djspose oF those as~;Pt.s, or the government or any agency of the govE:!rniTlE!nl cannot do any business with that company, cannot continue that rent, or you mu st resign. One of thosE! l:hr·ee things must occur. He took the position that he wouJd take steps i'rnmediat:ely to dispose of thE! asset. He has assurE!d rne that is precisely u.Jhat he is doing. He knows that if the asset is not disposed of, and he has beE!n told this, beforE! the lease expires, that lease cannot be renewed.

He has taken the position that he will either dispose of j_t wjthin three months the time that he has allotted for himself -· or he will SE!ek the termination of the lease, by agreement, wjth the Board of Liquor Control. Now he cannot cause it to be terrninatE!d because a lease is a two-way agreement, both partiE!S agreE!. So hE! knot~Js that he must either resign or that lE!ase cannot be renE!Wed. HE! also has indicatc~d to me that he intE!nds to SE!E!k thE! termination of leaSE1 if he cannot dispoSE! of the asset :in the meantime. No. 15 W/51

MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE! Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . Speaker, the hon . thE ! Premi er knows full well that his minister has stated publicly that he intends to allow that lease to run its course and alJ.ow it to expire sixteen months hence. MR. SIMMS : That is what it says in here. MR . RIDEOUT: Now that is what ha s been sa id publicly .

Will the Premit::'r. in v:ievJ of the fact that the Premier said that the minister must either terminatE! the lease or suffer the cons~::~quences, bdl l:he House today whE !ther or not. he ha s i nstructed his minister to terminate the lease or face the con se quences and what those consequences are? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Even right here thE! han. thE! Lead er of the Opposition has misstated what I said. I just got through saying he has no right to unilaterally terminate the lease . There are two parties to any lease. What he has stated to me, clearly, Mr.

Speaker, is that he wiJ.l seek the tE!rmination of thE! lease if he is unablt::' to dispose of the asset within three months. Now, I do not know what thE!Y expect him to do: Burn the building down or something? I mean, that doE !S not mak e any kind of sense . It is no problem. L752 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SIMMS: It is not? PREMIER WELLS: No, it is not . My criticism - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker, I would J.ike to be able to explain to the Hou SE! without that noise over there . The House will never get the truth as J.ong as they kE!ep roar:i.ng this noise. Mr.

SpE!aker. i.f they u1ant TTlE! Lo explain the Dr. Collin s 1 Ulinr:3 dnd thE• differenCE!, I uJ:iJ.J. Jay ~i.l . ou t in detai1 for the hon. member' S opposite. Dr. CoJ.l: .i ns sa t as a member of the Cabinet when lho company in which he otAmed an intE!t~est negotiatE!d the lE!dSE' wi.lh the government, and that is totally wrong. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : Or negotiatE•d thE! rE!nE!tAJal of thE! Jease. I have made il known - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Or! MR. SIMMS : Which is the facts . PREMIER WELLS: Either one. It does not mc.-lk e any difference.

I have toJ.d l:he member for Windsor -· Buchans. thE! minister. that he cannot nE>got..ii~t.e a J.ease or a renE!lAJal of t:he leaS E! as long as hE :! is a tninistE!r. He~ must Edther res :l.gn, if hE! wants to retain that, or he mu st dispos e of the asset; or thE !re can be no new deal negot iated with th e government, ei ther by way of No. 15 1\'7 1)2

renewal or a new deal, or government agency. Now, with any that is very very the standard, and it is simple and it is straightforward. MR. SIMMS: That is the standard, chaulk and cheese. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition . Ml~. RIDEOUT : Is it not interesting now to watch thE! han. l:hE! White Knight squtnn and set his own standards here? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the han. the Premier this: Why could the hon. thE:~ PremiE!r not have said to l:hat han. gentleman, 'You get your own private house in order and then I will talk to you about going into Cabine·l:.'? If it was wrong five or six months ago, why is it not wrong today? That is the question. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: I said to the han. me:Hnber what I suggested to the Premier he shouJ.d say Collins, 'Eith.::~r you must of the asset or you must one of the two. ' MR.

RIDEOUT: E!Xactly for·mer to Dr. dispose resign, He says he is not going to do that . L753 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI PREMIER WELLS: He did not. AN HON. MEMBER: That is what the paper says . PREMIER WEI LS: I do not know what the paper says. I take no responsibility for that. I can only rE•port to the House, Mr. Speaker, what I: he han. member has said to ITIE:~, tha t he intends to have it disposed of within three months or otherwise he will seek the termination of the lease. No1JJ, thE!rE! is not much E!lse hE! can uo.

I do not knotJJ :i.f the hon. the Leader of lhe Opposition wants him to bare himself before the House or whatE!Ver, bur~n the placE! doiJJn or what. What does he want done? MR. RIDEOUT : Practice what: you preach. what I want. MR. FLIGHT: I have done it'. PREMIER WELLS: That is I havE! donE!, with res pE! c t t.o thE! hon. lnE!rnber, precisE•ly tAJhat I asked the former Premier to do with Dr . Co 11 ins , as k him to resign or dispose of the asset, one or the other. That was the request. MR. SIMMS: He has sixteen months. PREMIER WELLS: No, he does not. He has within three months. MR. R. AYLWARD : Mr . Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER : to do it The han. the member for K:ilbri.de . MR. R. AYLWARD: No . 15 R'7S3

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Mr. Speaker, onE! day last week I questioned the minister on items concerning amalgamation, regional government and regional servicing councils, I believe they were referred to at thE! time. Mr. Speaker, I wonder will the minister confirm that the government is planning to force amalgamation on town councils before they receive desperately needed monies to imprOVE! thE!ir towns? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : Mr.

SpeakE!r, thE:~ gov~;:~rnment has no intention of forcing amalgamation on any community. Prior to rE!Ceiving services - I am not sure what the member means by his question - we have no intention of forcing amalgamation. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Kilbride . MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, it seems, as the member said, to be one story for the media as in this week 1 s edition of The Sunday Telegram, and one story for thE! HoUSE! las ·t week, Mr. Speaker.

Does that Act L754 the hon. minister realize the present Municipalities has all the mechanisms June J9, 1989 VoJ. XLI available or necessary for any towns who wish today to amalgamate? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Yes . I am awar'E! thE! minister has thE! authority, if that is tAJhat h~::~ is implying, to force amalgamation if it is deemed in the public interE!St to do so. Your question was whether or not we wouJ.d force amalgamation prior to SE!rvic-.ing being put. :i.n pJ.ace•, if I read your· question correctly.

We will not force amalgamation and usP servicing as a critE!l"'ion pr·:i.ol"' to that forced amalgamation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hE!ar! MR. R. AYLWARD : --· ---· Mr. SpeakE!r. MR. SPEAKER : ThE! han. thE! member for KiJ br':l .de . MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, in the JunE! l8 .issue of The Evening Telegram, the minister is quoted as saying he is, 1 pleasantly surprised' wj .th the response hE! has receiVE!d fr·om councils who seem to beJ.iE!Ve that !:his is the obuious rnoue to haue one large city in thE! North East Avalon. Mr.

Speaker, w:i.J.J. the hon. minister provide to !:.his House a list of councils or councillors who support his idea of one large city for this area? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister· of i''lunic:ipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : Mr. SpE!aker, the statern~;:~nt !:hat I No. 15 R7 54·

made in regard to the issue of a large city, is that the response I receiVE!d from councils, mayors, councillors, citizens was positive, very positive. It was, however, clearly stated that one large city for the North East Avalon is an option and it is probably what the future will see; whE!ther it be this year or five years or ten years from now, it is probably in the future. The point that I was making is that it .i.s the ultimate solution and could very well come sooner or later. WhE!th~:~r or not IAJE! would take that si:E!p sooner is a question that I want open for discussjon.

The reason that I gave thE! co1nrnents I did and had the int.E·r·v:Lew that I had 1.vas to put it all on the tablE! for the people to look at and respond to me. The rE!sponse so far has been very posjtive. MR. R. AYlWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Kilbride. MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to note that the han. minister has not said that he would provide a list of people who are supportive of that concept. I doubt very much if there are any who are supportive of it, Mr. Speaker. One final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Is it true that the minister has a list already prepared of communities throughout this Province that he considers prime areas for amalgamation? Will the minister provide this list to the House of Assembly? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. L755 June 19, 1989 Vol XL.I MR. GULLAGE: Yes, Mr. SpE!aker, it is very true. I have askE!d my officials to provide me with a list of communities that havE· counnon boundariE!S, and IAJould pos s:ibly bE! candidatE!S for amalgamation, so that I would open up discussion along those lines IAJi th thE!Tn.

What IAJe arE! trying to accompl:ish, Mr·. Speaker, is that, wherever possible, where we have communities in close proxoi.rn-.ity, rathE!r than have them groiAJ apart, which they are doing in many cases now, gr'OIAJing in through thP:i r dE!VeloprnE!nt.al contro1 arE!a, for examp1E•, we wanL i:.o encou1nagE~ tJ·wul t.o glnow l:ogr::d:hE!r. That :is why I have asked for such a Jjst. Mf~. SIMMS: Mr. Speai<E!Y'. MR. SPEAKER: fhe hon. thE! Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, I want to continue the line of questioning to the Minister of Munj d.pal and Prov-.incial Affairs, spE!cifically as it applies to the quE~st::ion of amalgamation. I am surr::~ ii: is not a big surprised to him that I have been waiting for my opportunity. Now I know that the hon. the PrE!rnier, as WE!ll as thE! rnin:istE?r, I believe, have talked a great· deal about establishing a regional author-.ity of some sort for the Central Newfoundland area.

I understand this regional authority, as a matter of fact my latest infor·mants tell me Hds rE!gional authority wi11 a1so havE• the respons-.ib-.il-.ity for announcing things like the funding for the watE!r' trE!c:d:ment plant, which I understand from thE! Premier's Parliamentary Assistant (Mr. No. 1S R 7 5 ~)

.&.: Grimes) will becoming forth in due course. But the other thing that they have talked about, I understand, and I recall from the Prem ier 1 s conversations and comments publicly, j s that this part.icuJ.ar authority will also be an authority that, for example, in the case of Grand Falls and Windsor, would be established to take tax revenues from the Town of Grand FalJs, which they now legitimately receive from busine sses, and give it to another community, th e community of Windsor in this case. Can the minister advise rnE!, and advise the mernbE!rs of thE! HousE:~. if in fac-t: this lJJill be the case?

If it is, can the ministE !r teJl us how thi s madcap scheme will make up for the loss of revenUE! that v.Ji11 be expE!riencE!d by the Town of Grand Falls, which obviously ha s r E! s pons i b i 1 i ties and commit m E• n t s to fulfill -to their .own taxpa~ers? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : Mr.

Speaker, I have had several discussions now with the town councils in the Grand Falls area - Gr·and Falls, Wind sor and Bishop 1 s Falls - two of which, as you have already mentioned, are obvious candidates for amalgamation, and I have had discussions along those lines.

The regional servic ing authority he speaks about is a separate issue in that thE! three councils involved would be tied into this regional servicing authority on a per capita ba sis and, indeed, we arE• talUng about waste disposal, water supply and othE!r i tEHns of a r·egional nature that could be tied into that regional servicing authority. 1.'71)6 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI As to the question about whE!ther or not we would impose a taxation, whereby we would draw upon the industrial business tax of Grand Falls and use i.t for Wind sor purposes and so on, that is obviously an option, but an option I do not foreseE!- ever bE!ing used.

Because I think, 1..1.r.ith the co-operation I have seen so far between th E! two town s, we can bring about amaJ.gamation and that sort of an authority lJJill not be necessary. MR . SPEAKER : Th e han. the l.E !ader. Opposition HousE! MR . ~>IMM~): r.11 r . S p e a k e r , I n o t i c e '"'' i L h s o m f! degree of interest: the"• Pr '(!III :LE·r· turning a bit red when Lhe minist er made that respo nse , becaus e th ai: is noi: E•xaci :.ly wha t the Premier was saying out in Central Newfou nd land two years ago when he was campaigning for lhe by --e lec tion in Windsor - Buchans. But.

I am pl E!as ed to hea r n ow that the minist er has, in fac t, confirmed that that is not an option that th ey are now considering any longer . MR. GULLAGE : I did not say that . MR.

SIMMS: But you do not foresee coming about, I think basically what hE! said, is good enough for me enough, I hope, for the Grand FalJ.s. it OVI?.r' that lAJas and that and good people of I knov.J it is a se•paratE! qu e~; t:ion from amalgamation, i:hat i.s lAJhy I as ked th E! qUE !S tion SE!parately, but not.o..J, I lJJill ask ·- I will giVE ! t:he minister an opportunity to get some instruction fr·orn the Pr e1rr.ier, if he wishE: ~s . I do not wan t t.o No. lS ln 1:i6

tnterrupt him. LEd: rne move to amalgamation since he raised it; I did not raise dmalgamat:ion, I ra:iSE!d the othE!r issue specifically.

Before we get to a decision on amalgamation, with respect to Grand Falls and Windsor, in particular, will the government, and w:ill the minister now, on behalf of thE! government, indicate publicly -and I be!lieve that is what he said in his answer to my colleague earlier -that before any decision is taken 1.1.1ith respect to amalgamation, the government lAI'.ill commit and advise and noUfy the pE!Ople, upfront, in advance, thE• amount oF' infrastructure funding that will be prov.idE!d by the government and over what period of time that Funding will be pr·ovidE!d?

Is that what I understand the ministe!r to be saying? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Mipister. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. SpeakE:~r. I think that is a very fair question. I have already started those discussions with the two town councils involved. I have attempted to be as open as I can. I think thE! need for amalgamation of those two towns is urgent, and I believe they agreE! with that. I will be very open about what we will do as a government to bring about the amalgamation. It is on an urgent basis.

We hopE! we will not have to carne to the situation the member spoke about, lJJhE!re a taxation authority would have to bE! put in place. I think l:he councils involVE!d do not want to see that. They wouJ.d rather see amalgamation with a fair phase-in procedure and a fair phase-in treatment as far as L7S7 June 19, 1989 VoJ. XLI taxation is concerned. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear·, hear! PREMIER WELLS: If need be, it will be. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposi t::ion HOUSE! Leader. MR.

SIMMS: I hope Hansard recorded the PrE!ITlier' s 1itt1e co1n1nE!nt acr·oss l:he HousE• to rnE•, wh<::.r1 he said, 'IF need be, it. IJJiJl be.' That is what I want recorded in Hansard. PREMIER WELLS: PrE!ciseJy. MR. SIMM~~: Now, Mr.

SpeakE!r', my final question to thE! rnJnist.E!r Js th:i s: Before any amalgamation decision is finalized, and since thJs matter really, in Grand Falls Windsor has not beE!n studied, I suppose, or 1ookE!d at probably for fifLE!en years, aL J.east, probably twenty years since it occurred, wiJ.l the rnJnister commit now to providing an opportunity to the pE!ople of thE• arE!a ·un~ough a vcd:r! or somE! othE!r kind of rn~:·chani.srn, to lE!t the people havE! a say as to whether they wish to amalgamate?

I suggest l.:o htrn, thE! only t:Lrne you will get a reasonable response to it is once the gove•rnrTJE!nt has made a cornrnitrnent as to what kind of funding and infrastructurE! they lJJill put. in place. I lAJould ·like to see hirn do it in that way, rather than force iL down the throats of thE! peop1E! of CE•ntraJ Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER: No. 15 R 7 ~) 7

The han. the minister . MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, I am hoping that thE! process I am following of being very open and candid about the problems in that region and others wjll lead the people to respond to me and ask mE! questions, give me thE!ir conCE!rns up-front. I think that is the right process to follow. For example, I arn going to Gr·and Falls .. _ Windsor to meet with the councils once again in the next few days. I have already had tLuo meetings with each of the councils. I lAiill also be meE!ting with the regional servicing authority, which involves the three counci1s.

So I arn being as open as I can and I hope I will get feedback, not just from thE! councils and thE! mayors invollJed, but also frorn the people in thE! area. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St.. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS : Mr. SpE !aker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries. BE!forE! posing rny qUE!Stion, I would like to congratulate the minister on his initiatives of last Thursday and today, and hopeful] y it will alleviate some of the problems pertaining to the glut. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

PARSONS: I concur with member for St. my colleague, thE! Mary 1 s ··- The Cap€~s L758 June 19, 1989 Vol X L.I ·(Mr. Hearn), in saying that: there really is not a gJ.ut, but bE!causE• of the monEd:ary situation, thE:~ lucratiVE! situation :in the capl:i.n fishery, most of the plants are not taking any cod, and that is w hE! r e the t hi n g b a c k s u 'p . Now t hE! initiatives taken by the union and somE! processors in having thE• Northern Princess down here, that was fine, that initiative l..I.Jas good. But thE! point rE!rnains that they cannot get peop1E! to work on the boat.

People w:it:.h E'!Xperience, thE! cutters and t:he packers, arE! just not there to go in and hand1e the boat. Now that is why the boat cannot. be util:iz( :!d up t:o 1.00 per cent; certainly it is not doing 50 per cent as of now. It :is a sj tuation ·that: needs .immediate r1~rned.ies, bE•cduse, as lAIE' knov.J, as thE! capl:i.n fishery lAJ:.ind~; dotA.Jn so does the cod fishery . By the time the caplin fishery is over, so cou1d the cod fishE!r·y be OVE!r, and this :i.s lAJh E!rE! t:hr, problem really lies.

My ques l:.ion to the m:inj ster is, would he use h"is good officE! t:o contact those plant OlAJnPrs and ask t:he1n if tlwy could, if at all possibl e, take some of the bur·den alAJay frorn the fishermen and utilize parts of their plant for the present glut. situation?

Again, because of the monetary sjtuation, as :i.t pertains to l.:he go'vE!rnrnent 1 s involvE!ment: ·.in 1nany of those plants, I ask the rnin"ister, in approving any loan guarantees or grants to any procpssor, wou1d he place a rE!striction on the ownPrs, if thE! agrE!!c•mE!nt tA.Jas ratified, i:o bE• stipuJ.ated in that agrE•Prnent tha-t. pdrt of his premises or plants has to be utilized for the procE!Ssing of cod during the caplin season? MR. W. CAinER: No. 15 R7S8

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that is not going to be a simple regulation to impose. Let. us face it, most of thesE! companies are privately owned companies, although granted, they have loan guarantE!eS and other financial help from the government. Ideally, yes, we should be ablE! to one way or the other encourage th em to process cod. The han. thE! Leader of the Opposition earlier made reference to some comments that I might hav e 1nade when I was sitt:ing over there. Let ITIE! t.eJ 1 him, the comm E!nts that I rnade, Mr.

SpeakE!r, had to do with the government imposing upon fish plants operators, as a condition of their licence, that they provide a splitting capabil ity for salt fish in their· plants. Then. during Uw glut SE!ason, when fish couJ.d not be processed fresh, it would be incumbent upon them to provide within that fa c.i 1 it y provision For thE! splitting and salting of fish. But certa :inly thE! suggestion made by my colleague is worth looking at and I will certainly have my people take a look at it and we will see what can bE! done. But the problem, as you say, is not because there is too much cod, rt:~ally.

It is because the existing plants are more interested right now, and for obvious reasons, in switching their operation to caplin, and, of course, thereby precJ.uding any chance for the cod fishermen to seJ.l thEd.r harvest to thE! plant. But we will have a look at it. MR. PARSONS : L759 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI Min . Speaker·. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the rnernber for St. John 1 s East ExtE!rn. MR. PARSONS: I want to thank Uw minister for his answer. I would now like to ask a question to the Minister of Environment and Lands (Mr. Kelland).

We hear so much about not getting enough monE!Y from thE! fE!deraJ. governrn E!n t put into Newfoundland, that we neE!d morE! monoy. TherE! tAJa s a contract a1mos 1: awardc!d for tho SouthsidE• of ~)t .. John'~; hE'!re, an area known as ProsSE!r 1 s l~ock. I tAlent. with a group of fi.shernwn and met w:i th the Uwn 11J.in:is l:c:!r. and as Fa r as I am al!.J iH'e aJ.1 c:w t:ho r·Jt.y pertaining to the federal government sa id give the projec t a g r e r:! n 1 i g h t .

But ·i t. tAla s our Department of Envi.ronrnE!n t l:hat . put on the red light and said that t.herE! had to bE ! an EJ~) dorw, and that EIS was suppose to be completed within one month. I ask thE! minisb:•r, what happE!nN.J to that Environmental Impact Study? And when can the people of St. John's know whether or not that project is to start ? MR. KELLAND: Mr. SpE•aker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND : I thank the hon. rnernber For his question. There have bE!en so few rE!lated to the environrnE!n t, Mr.

Speaker, since I have been a minister in t.he House, that I JAJas beginning to wonder what the level of concern was with the Opposition with respE!Ct to qUE!S tions on !:hE! No. 15 R759

environment, lands and other jurisdictions in my department. I havt::~ been briefc::~d on the ProsSE!r 1 s Rock situation, as I have with aJ.J. projects that are currE!nt in the department. At the moment there are some concerns_ which have been raised by a numb~;:~r of people. I have asked my Environment people to hav(:~ another look at the situation and bring me up-to-date on what these particular problems are. And there are some alternate suggerstions. I was just recently up on the Southside Hills and talked about that particular project that is being considered for parks, SE!r'vicing, fishing and so on.

There was an alternate suggestjon made, within recent times, that perhaps a Prosser 1 s Rock type of an operation might be considE!rc::~d For thE! Freshwc~ter Bay area. Now, that information was netAJ to me last WE!ek, but what we ar·e doing right now is having thE! Environment officials advise me what the major conCE•rns arE! with respect to flushing action, and so on, in the Prosser 1 s Rock area. As soon as I have that information in hand I wiJ.l bE! able to providE! more detailed information to th~ han. member. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the membE!r for St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS : Mr.

Speaker, I am going to ask another minister another question. I ask this to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. I have been approachE!d by a group of dr·iving instructors who are saying to me that there are driver training officE!S, just for to go in and gE!t your licenSE! or to be examined, in aJ.l parts of the Avalon. Now, with the office changing to Mount Pearl, there is no office to go in L760 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI and have your driving -examinations done in any part of St. John 1 s East or environs. I ask would the minister take a look at the problem and perhaps establish such an office? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Works, Service and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: I thank the rnetnb1:!r For thE! question. I wiJ.J. certainly have my officials check into it and see what is the feasible and right thing to do for hav ·ing those off:LCE!S opE:Hl. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKFR: The hon . the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. SpE!aker, I have a quPst:.l.on for· the Minister of Social ServicE!s. If reports are true, a numbE!r of peoplE! at the RE!mand CE!ntrE! wer'E! heJ.d at kn ife- point. by a youth for a period of time ouer the weekend.

Could the minister let the House know exactly what happened? MR . SPEAKER : The han . the Minister of Socia1 Services. MR. EFFOIW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, Mr·. SpeakE!r, that is not. true. I am not aware of i.'l.n incident. taking place at. the Remand Centre where anybody was held at kni fe- point on the weekend. MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the member for Port au Port. No. 1S 1\'760

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, pE!rhaps thE!r'e is a little change in terminology here. Is it not true that a student at. the Remand CentrE!, who tAla s into lea l:her working, us E!d a dagger -type instrument to hold a number of people at dagger-point, knife-point, and threatened them physically? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me just make onE! J.jttJ.e statemE!nt to the han. rnE!lnber: Before he asked thE! question, Mr.

SpeakE!r, ht:~ should do rt:•SE!arch and get hjs answers, because he is obviously asking questions from someone els~~' s advice. l.E!t rne tell you very clearly what the han. member js asking. That. took place at the Youth Correction Centre, not at thE! Remand CE·ntre. I am aware of the situation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: I answered the question truthfully. It was ned: at. thl(:~ Remand Centre but at the Youth Correction Centre. MR. SIMMS: You tried to cover it up. MR. EFFORD: There was no cover-up. It happened just over the weekend, Mr. Speakr:~r.

To b<:: very clear, it was not at dagger point, .it was not at knifE!-"point, but. it lAJas a small instrument that they use in the lec~ther craft shop-·-that is quite correct -but it was not life threatening and it. was taken L761 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI care of by the _ You lh Officer·s. ThE!Se things from timE! to tirne. Thr:~ is in hand at the Youth Centre, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER: Correc t:ion do happE!n s:i.tuaU.on CorrE•ct:Lon The han. the rnernber for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister tell the House exactly what instructions he gave the people at the Youth Correction Centre as regards to the boy who had created the disturbance? Ml~. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the M:i.nj.sLer oF ~3oc:ia1 c . ;::,ervlces. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, fir· st. of aJ 1 thE! minister was not -Ln the atnE!d on the weekend. This took place when I was out in CornE! r B l"OO k do:i ng some other dut.ies on the lAJE'E~kend. We have an administrator at Lhe Boy's Home, a very capab1e individual, very capable supervisory staff, and very capable Youth Corrections Officers.

When an incidE!nt: takes place they are properly trained, Mr. Spoaker, to dE:~aJ. w:i.Lh t.hE:! situation at hand and to rnakE! l:hE! necessary decisions. They br:i.E!fE!d rriE! on this t.h:.i.s morning. We are meeting again this afternoon. The situation :i.s taken care of. The boy is in thE! Youth Cort"E!ct:ions CentE!r. The instrumE!nt tJJas takE!n· from h:irn, as naturally it should be, and ho will undergo disciplinary action, counselling and whatever other mE!asures WE! can administer to l:ake care of the young boy, which we No. 15 1n61

d·o. Mr. Speaker, this department under the nE!W Minister of Social SE!rvices wjJ.J. make sure that all boys in all correction centers in and around thP Province wiJ.1 gE!t proper care. We are not going to do anything to hurt the ~oung boy, but t..ue are going to do a lot of things to help him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Leader of thl";~ Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I have a supplementary I wou]d like to direct to the han. gentJeman.

I applaud the hon. gentlE!man for articulating, as he does, that the prime goal. here is to care for and counsel and trdin those young pE!Ople. But let me ask the hon. rninistE:~r this: Is :it a fact that the minister has given directions to those staff people that makes it difficuJ.t, and, in fact, impossible for them to deal with circumstances such as were outLined here today, because the minjster has given direct ministerial orders that those people are not to be dealt with in any cloSE!d-custody fashion? Is that a fact? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services . MR. EFFOIW : Mr.

SpE!akE!r, that untrUE!. SinCE! I Minister of Social given no orders to people in closed is absolutely have become Services I have anybody to keep custody. They 1..762 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI are in closed custody in the Youth Corrections Center. They are in closed custody in the Remand CE!nter. What we are attempting to do is to treat them like human beings, with respect, and giVE! them the proper counselling that they deserve to hE!lp rE!habilitate thE!fn, not to make thE!rn lAJOrSE!. We realize thE! E!nvironiTIE!nt from t..uh .ich they came was VE!ry difficult .

WE! have there young boys who have rnaj or pr·oblerns and we intend, Mr·. Speaker, to help them. I gave no orders not to work wjth those boys at any time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear·, hear! MR. TOBIN: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Let me ask the minister a question. Is the Remand Center, now moved to the old School For thE! Deaf, the same as a closed-custody faci1ity? Has l:hal: bE•E!n done yet? Are there pE! opJ.e in remand in that building ri(:3ht now? MR. SPEAKER : The Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . It is unbelievable, Mr.

Speaker, that the former Minister of Social Services is no more versE!d on the things that are taking place within this government than he was in his own government . He knew nothing about it then and he knows very little about it now. Mr. SpE!aker, thE! Remand Center·, as No. 15 ln62

I stated very clearly publicly, as I have stated in this House of AssembJy, will be closed up. We will still use the facilities at Torbay. The process has already been approved by my government. MR. TOBIN: How can it be your government? MR. EFFORD: By our government. It takes some time. Mr. SpE!aker. to put that process in place. On or before July 31, which is just a little more than a month away, all our young boys at the Remand Center wilJ. be transfE!rrE!d to the rE!ITiand facilitiE!S at Tor·bay. Tht:~re arE• stilJ. somE! boys at the Remand Center in Pleasantville. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear·. hear! MR.

SPEAKER: I wish to inform han. members that Question Period has elapsed, as opposed to collapsing. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. SPEAKER: In accordance IAlith the provisions o f t h E! I n t e r n a 1 E c o n om y C o rnrn i s s i o n Act, I u.Jish to inform hon. mE!mbers today of the appointment of the Commission to enquire into and report on the indemnities, alJ.owances and salaries to be paid to members of the House of Assembly. The Commission will be headed by Dr. M. 0. Morgan. Dr.

Morgan served as President. and Vice-Chairman of Memorial University of Newf ou ndla nd from 19'73 to 1981. HE! has SE!rVE!d as Chairman of a number of boards of L763 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI arbjtration and conciliation, and as an industrial enquiry commissioner. Dr. Morgan will bE! joinE•d on thE! Commission by two other very ab1E• and experienced pE!OpJ E·: Ml". Garfield Pynn, and Mr. Gonzo GiJ.J.ingham. Mr. Pynn is Director and AssociatE• Professor of the SchooJ. of Business Administration and Commerce of Memorial University of Newfoundland.

Professor Pynn was Chairman of thE:' Comrniss:i.on appointed to look into the remuneration of ·Uw rnombers of l::he House oF Assernbly in 1979. 11H Ls pr'E!SE!ntJ.y a ITIE!Iflbel~ of' l.he. EXE!CUt~ive of the Cound.l of Dudns and Directors of Cclnad:i.an ~)chool~:~ of Busin~C•ss, a member oF t:he Provincia} CounciJ. of NewfounciJ.and Institute for r.llanaqell'lont AdvanCE!ITient dncl Tra:i.ning, a member of the Business Advisory Council of the Extension of MUN, and a member of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board of the ProvincE! of Newfoundland. Mr.

Gillingham is an inter·naUonal representative for the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Join(~rs of America. HE! has beE!n affiJ.iated with the labour un:i.on in this Province For twenty-five years and hE·, too, was a mernber or· the Commission appointed to look into the remuneration of members of the House of Assembly in 19'79. The Commission tJJi1l complE!te their enquiry and deliver their report containing recommendations within ninety days of their appointment as required under the provisions of the IntE•r'naJ. Economy Corruniss:ion Act. No. 15 R'763

Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I am plE!ased to provide the answers to questions as ked by the hon. the membE!r for Grand Falls. Question number 4, on Order Paper 11 of '89. The question was: To ask the hon. Premier to provide an list of expenditures office equipment, equipment, furnishings itemized for any personal and the 1989. photographs purchased for Premier's Office since May 5, For the Office of the Premier, none. For the Executive Support OffiCE!, none. For the administration

section of the Office there was a total of $7,000 wor·th, made up of a shreddE:!r that had been ordered by thE! previous administration for $2,700. I do not know what they intended to shred. MR. GULLAGE: We were lucky they did not get it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! PREMIER WELLS : There were two typewriters, for a total of $2,000; a computer table; sixty 3 x S photographs of me, Your Honour, and ·100 - 8 X 10 photographs of me. We cannot keep up with the demand for photographs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! PREMIER WELLS: I have no idea why. I have to frankly admit to the House, Mr.

L764 June 19, 1989 VoJ. XLI Speaker, that I do not understand it. I really cannot understand it. I do not knolAJ if the physiognomy is that much mor·e attractive than prior PrE!fTiiE!rs, but there are extensive demands. And, I may say, Mr. SpeakE!Ih, I do not understand why there is so much demand from outside the Province. There is a fair bit from outside the Province, too, but I guess they an~ collectors, or whatever they are, and lAJe haVE! to try to be responsive to the requests. A binding systmn for ~S')65; typelAwiter· table for· $119; and coat tree for $75. c:~ a I am happy to tablE! that information.

The second question was also asked by the hon. thE! rnE!InboJh for Crand FalJ.s, and he wan led an :it.end.z(:!d list of travel expenditures incuJnred by the Premier, Execut:LVE! Assistants or c~ny ot:hc~r membetn of the Premier's personal staff, as well as expenditures for any other s t a f f of the Pre m :l e r ' s Off :i. c E! who may have accompaniE!d thE! Premier, since May S, 1989. The anslAJE!rS arE! as follows: For the Premier Off :i ce, himself, a total of $1, 8S3. 94-, made• up of a:i r travel, costing a ·total of $1,200-plus for myself and my wife in travelling to the meeting of thE!

NelAJ Eng] and Governor·s and Eastern · Canadian Premiers; accommodation while there totalling $53'7. SO; JnE!als tcd:all.i.ng some $16 -- $17; rnisceJJ.anc•ous $39; and long distance t.cdephone ca] ls $55.21, for a total of $1,800. AN HON. MEMBER: No limousines? SOME HON. MEMBERS : No. 1S R764 .

Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: No limousines. Mr. Speaker, I think that. tAJill keep us well within the $63,000 that we have budgeted for the year for thE! Office, as opposed to the $210,000 spent last year in the office. fhe other expenses: For the Executive Support for the Office of the Premier, Mr. RobE!rt Dornan, who is the Executive Assistant, travelled with me to Montebello and the total air travel, accommodation and telephone expenses for his travelling was $1,057.76; Mr. Edward Joyce, the Executive Assistant in Corner Br·ook has, in thE! last six WE!E!kS, travelled to St.

John's and back and had some accormnodation here, and travelled to various points in Wesh!rn NE!Wfoundland on beha1f of thE:! office, for a tota1 travell.ing cost of $677,37, a11 of which is spelled out. Mr. that the less Speaker. I am very confidE!nt us well within considerably budget. this will keep budgE!t that is than last year·' s SOME HON. MEMBERS: fiE!ar. hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also have some responses to questions posed by the han. the mernbE•r for Grand FalJ.s.

Question No. 34 appeared on the Or·der Papc::~r of the same day as thoSE! to which the Premier has responded, June 14-, in which the han. ITIE!ITtber aske!d L'765 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI for an itemized 1ist of expe!ndi tures incurred by the minister, execui::ive assistant and any other member of the staff and so on. On the May 21st-May 22nd. period, a trip from St.. John's to Coos(~ Bay and retut~n, to rriE!E!t IAJ:i l:h a concerned citizen's group, the airfare was $526, Mr. Speaker. On June 11. I was rE!quirE!d to travel from Labrador to Corner Brook to repreSE!nt l:hE!

PremiE!In on a pane1, Environment. f3yrnposium, as; was mentioned ear1ier in the House. There were no commercial flights availablE! to meed: both comrnitrnPnt.s on boLh ends, it rE!qu:ir·ed a chartur' ai: a cost:. of $J,760. I re!turned l::.o ~)!::. John's frorn Dec::~r Lake, cottHner·:ica1, $192.10. Tl'lE!rE! IAJas a ITiuaJ. co~;t of $ 1 5 . 00 . 0 n l: hE! o 1: her l: r L p I tJ..Jd s not accompanied by any staff membE!r. My executive ass:i.stanl::. position is still unfilled, Mr.

SpeakE!r, and I wou1d bE! happy i:o accept a rE!SUme frorn the hon. the member for Grand Fa1ls if he fee1s he has the basic rE!quir·ements t:o fill the position. AN l-ION. MEMBER: You d:id no 1: E!Ven get a your own han. crowd. MR. KELLAND: laU1:3h flnorn They only laugh at jokes. That·. was not a joke, it tAJas a s:inCE!re offer in the sense of fairness and balance. With respect to the second question, No. 16, on JunE! 14t:h, hE! asked about expenditures for office equipment, personal equipment, furnishings and photographs purchasE•d by the ministE!r since May S.

ThE•re IAJere no expenditures for office equipment, personal equiprnenL, furnishings or photographs purchased by the minister's office. No. 15 R'765

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I might add that I thank the former administration for well stocking the office and lAJe11 furnishing the office. I am very comfortable over thE!re, as I hopE! thE!Y are in the spaces they now occupy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Before going on to the next item, on behalf of hon. mE!Inbers I would like to weJ.come to thE! galleries today the han. Colin MaxlAJe11, the Minister of Parks, Recreation and Culture from the Province of Saskatchewan. SOME HON. MEMBERS : lh :!a r, hE!ar! MR . SPEAKER: Is this further Questions? MS COWAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: Answers to The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The answer to Question No. 17, appearing on the Order Paper dated June 14, 1989 : My expenditures, first of all, for office equipment tota1ling $1,400 - itemized list attached . Personal office expenditures tota11ing $664.00 itemized list attached. Under Travelling: Travelling to Prince Edward Island to meetings with one of thE! as sis t. ant: dE· pu-t. y ministE!Ins, total, $2,064. L766 June 19, 1989 Vol XU Petitions MS VERGE: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Humber East.

MS VERGE : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MS VERGE: -··· ··-·-···--·· I wish to present another petition caLling for immedi a l'.E! a cL:i . on on the part of \:he goVE!rnnwn\: l:.o imprOVE! rnarriiiiOgr'aphy. SE:!I"Vicc:!S throughout l·:hE! iJrouince. rho petition :ls of soJne huenty- -fJ .VE! lnesidE!nts of the St. John 1 s i.H'E!a and is SE!E•king th<:! irn111ediatE! introduction of a provinco -wide screening mammography program. Mr·.

SpE!akE!r, the reason For the~:E! people 1 s cries for immediatE! action have to do with a desire to do what medical experts now say can be donE• to preVE!nt dea ·l:hs and alleviate sufferings resulting from breast cancer. Mr. Speaker, I understand l:h E! Minister of Health (Mr .. Decker) was in Corner Brook on the weekend and while there was questioned by a r'E!porter about thE! government 1 s position on this. He was asked specifically about the government's intention to provide the wherewithaJ. for Western Memorial Regional Hospita1 to acquire a modern mammogram .

The present mammogram is Fourteen years old and :i.s obsolete. The rninister''s rE!ply, t.uhich is quol:ed in today's Western Star, is that if pE~ople in the WestE!rn area of Newfoundland want a modern No. 15 R766

mammogram then they i n i t i a t e a c o mm u n i t y f u n d drive. Now, Mr. Speaker, insulting to thE! wornE!n Province and the women Western rE!gion. should raising this is of the of the ThE~ rninistE!r, in trying to dE!fE!nd thE! indE!fensible, is putting down me and other former P.C. Government members for our not having actE!d. I would remind the minister that he is now the Minister of Health. So, really, what we d:Ld or did not do is not relevant. What matters is what he and his colleagues are going to do to respond to the health care needs of the people of the Province.

I would also remind him that it was not unU 1 six months ago that HeaJ.th and Welfare Canada endorsed the findings of a major study about the benefits of screening mammography and recommended to the provinces that routine screening be made possibJ.e for all women over fifty and younger women wtt:h warning symptoms. Mr. SpeakE!r, in supporting this petition I would call on mernbE!rS opposite to stop trying to defend the indefensible and act. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. thE! Leader of thE! Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

SpeakE:~r, I would like to take the few moments that the rules L767 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI permit me to support thE! petition preSE!nted by my collE!ague for Humber East. I am surprised that when thE!re is so much intE!rest in this issue in the Province that there does not appear to be any substantive response at all from the government benches to the prayer of this petition. This, Mr. Speaker·, is a VE!Y'Y sensitive and important issue facing the women of Newfoundland and Labrador. And fo1n l:hE! Minister of Health and other's on thE:~ government sidE• of the HouSE! over th(:!

J.ast seVE!ral days to t:ry to rnakE:~ SOmE! kind of dn obSCE!nE• polit.icaJ. :.i.ssue out.. or Lh:i.s V(o'I"Y important quesLLon is insuJ.l:inq, to say the l~:'ast. _ It :.i.~~ :.i.nsulttn~J to l:he peoplE! of N1~wFoundland and Lab1nador.

ThE! mirds tE•r kncn,us, and practicaLly everybody who has had any deaJ.ings with this issue knows that :it is only lAril·:h:in the 'last stx or seVE!I1 months that Hea1th and Welfare Canada have re1eased the studiE!S and the documents that. show that it .is now safe l:o proceed with the acquisition and use of this equipment For women in Newfoundland and Labrador and across Canada. And For the Minister of HE!alth to continUE! to try to hide behind some political smokescreen and be a~~ damaging <.'IS hr:~ is to thE!

WOI[IE!rl in l:h:is Province and t.ry t.o play down the issue, as he does, it is just not good enough, Mr. Speaker. And t.o suggest that people in various regions of thE~ Province ought to get on their own horse and on their OIAJn effort and ra::i.se funds is ludicrous. The Minis{:er our:~ht to know that in r·egion afl:er region in this Prouince there are hundreds of thousands of dollars raised a year for necessary hospital equipment., :i.ncJ.uding this particular equipment we are talking about, in sornE! rE•gions of No. 15 R767

thE! Province. There have been foundations set up in var·ious areas of this Province and they have been asking thE! government to match what they themselves have raised :Ln the various regions of the Province. So for the MinistE!r to continue to sit there is to insult the WOITIE!n of the Province, and it is an insult to the peopJ.e of Newfoundland and Labrador to claim this is only a political question, that the Opposition is trying to make politics out of it. It is time for the Minister, after a month and a haJ.f, or almost tlAJO months, to come to the rE!alizat :ion that he is now t.he MinistE!r.

Anything he can throw across at us, we can duck and it will go on over our heads, but the fact of the matter is that it is the Minister and the government who must act, and if $200,000 or $300,000 or $400,000 a year can legimately be used to help the women of this Province, as it can, with acquiring this equipment, then the Minister should be fighting right, left, and center to make sure that the equipment is provided. Do not gE!t up with the silly political answers that you got up with on Thursday or Friday.

They sufficed when you were over here, I say to the minister, but the minister is now over there and it is his responsibility to act. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. MR . DECKER: Mr . Speaker, I am pleased to support the prayer of this petition so ably presented by the membE!rS opposite. To hear them talking, you would nE!Ver know they WE!re in poWE!r for the last ten to L768 June 19, 1989 Vol X L.I SE!VE!nteen ye:~ars. I remember reading the book about the Depression, The Ten Lost Years. Mr.

Speaker, I think that would be extremely appr·opr:Late to refer to the last ten years in N e wf o u n d land , a s the t e n l o s t years we have had. Now, I am suppor·ting t:hE! petition. The hon. members are trying to cloud i:hts "issue by making it political, and they arE! confusing people between mammography services and mammography screening. Now, the mammography screening program, as I said bE!Fore, tJJe ar·E! 1ook :ing <".11:, and tJJe fu1ly intend to bin:i.ng one in in due course, after· WE• hatJe given it every consideration and aftE!r we have~ exa1nined LIJhal:. :.Ls right and proper.

ThE! ma.\TIInogl"aphy scr·een'ing progr·arn is in the works, Min. SpE!ClkE!In, and it lAJi11 be deliVE!red tJJhE!n it i.s rE!asonablE! t:o deliver the mamrnogr·aphy screerdng program. Now, Mr. SpE!aker, han. rnernbE!r's are trying to confuse mammography services. There are in this Province, Mr. Speaker, a reasonable number of mammography machines. For examplE!, at the Grace General, a new mammography machine has beE!n ins t:allc•d as of today. How is that for action? We have bE!en in office six tiJeeks and a brand new machine is being installE!d today and ~~houJ.d be operational within a couple of days.

The Grace General has a waiting list due to Hw fact that their old machine has been down for a while. St. Clare 1 s has a significant: wa iti ng Jist. ThE!Y have tendered for a new machine and thE•y arE! antici.pating :its installation in September, 1989. Corner· Br·ook: Th1?.ir currc!nt No. 15 R768

machine is obsolete, and I mean obsolete. It was obsolete five years ago when the hon. the mt:.~mber for Corner Brook was in Cab:inet. It l.l.las obsolete then. Why she did not take action to replace it I wi 11 nE!V r::~r know. but she did not. It has been dumped in our laps and we are certainly making E!Very effort we can to have it replaced. Their current machine is obsolE!tE! MS VERGE: Why do you working? MR. DECKER: have {:hE! machine::~ If the hon. listen. rnE•mbE!r' l.l.lill just and they arE! tendering jointly La.r.ith St.

Clare's, and pE!nding approval of a funding proposal by this department. thE!ir mammography rna chine s houJ.d be ins tal1E!d in September. After ten years. ten lost year·s, WE! are go:Lng to install one in September, hopefully, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. DECKER: St. Anthony has a mammography machine and, in the past, has had no significant backlog. In Central Newfoundland, Gander has a new machine that is functioning satisfactorily. Grand Falls has a new machine that is functioning satisfactorily.

ClarenviJ.le has a modern machine that has been operating for a one-month period, since we have come in office. This is housed adjacent to the hospital in a self-contained mob:ile caravan. So, Mr. Speaker, it that we have done L769 June 19, 1989 is obvious a lot to Vol XU increase mammography services in this Province. and I arn proud to tell han. membE!rs of UlE! House, as well as the people who signed that petition, that that is the tr·und we will be following. That is what I am proud to tell the people of this Province.

Mammography screening services as opposed to mammography screening is a slightly different issue, wherein we have to take the equipment to the people instead of br·ing ing the peoplE! l:o l:hE! equipment. That is :i.n the '"'Jor·ks and -Lt will be clonE! at a reasonable time. I do not believe w1~ are going to r:3et. -Lt:. in !·.his fiscal yetH', but I can guar·anlec thE! peoplE! oF this Protrince t:hat i.t '"'':i.1J not take this rnj_n:is l:eJ" l~en YE!ars, like .it took thE! pr:::•v:i.ous admi.ni.strati.on, to E!nd up IJ.ri.l:h obsolete, worn-out equipment. SOME HaN. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day Order 2-Committee of Supply. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Min·.isl:E!r of Social ServiCE!S. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! Mf~. EFFOfW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. SpE!aker, I want. to take thE! first few minutes of approximately the naxt half hour to try and spE!ak t:o the budget, but I wj].l then, during thE! last paint, l:r·y to give some E!Xarnples of thE:• changes that have bE!E!n 1nade La.Jit.h.in rny department :in the fE!I,o,J short '"'leeks No. 1 s ln69

since I was appointed minister, compared to what was happening over the last seVE!ntE!en years. I think, ~1r. Speaker, when I get. to that you wilJ realize the direction and the real change that this government is about to undertake in this Province. One thing about it, Mr. Speaker, is the budgetary process is not something that happens overnight . It takes a whilE!, Mr. Speaker, to that process into place.

Given thE! amount of time that this administration had, the timE! that the goVE!rnrnc~nt of the day cal1ed the E:~locb.on, the tjme it l::akE!S for a transition period and thL:!n the time'! that the mird sters werE! appointE!d, I think the~ Minister of Finance (Dr. Kitchen), with his colleague the President of TrE!asury Board (Mr. Baker), and all people concernc~d, Mr. Sp~:!akE!r, did one fantastic job.

In fact, I would think that we should even look at possibly pJ.adng a statue of the MinistE!r of Finance~ out on the lawn so that all people in thi.s ProvinCE! can see what a fantastic job was done for the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . EFFORD: For any minister to come in and in such a short time provide a budget such as we have today, whereby we see some bright outlook for the future of this Province compared, Mr. Speaker, to the dismal view that we went through over the last almost ttJ.Jo decades, shows thE!re is a real change in place.

This Province is going to move forward at a positive rate and the economy is going to change. I am very pleasE•d l:o say that, Mr. SpeakE!r, because as MinistE!r of Socia} Services I want to reduce L770 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI caseloads so that people can have some alternative i.nst.E!ad of asking and begging for food to put on their· t:able. That is what thE!Y have been subjected to, Mr. Speaker·, over the last dE!cade and a half, and especially the last b:Hl years.

Because we know, thE!rE! is nobody in this Province who knows any more than we do, the cost of food, thE! high cost of living, and the cost of heating their· homes. We know what they have been subjected to. Compar 'E! d to the rising cost, the amount that they were given by the forrnE!r adndnistration cUd not E!VE!n corne closE! l:o keep·ing up HlE! pacE~. But., Mr. SpE:'akE!r', that. IAJ:i1J. all change, thE!rE! ·is no qUE!Stoi .on about that . I have to makE! a fE!W COITIIJ'JE!nt.s about rny colleague sitting adjacent: t.o me on my right, the Mini~ter of Fisheries.

The fishery is very cJ.oSE!1y reJat.E!d to rne, being from Port dE! Grave, which is one of the largest fishing communities in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador· , and I am v E! r y p r o u d t: o say that. Leading up to tht"'! pas L election, the fisi1E!ry outlook For the Province, the inshore fishermen and the problems that they encountered, thE!Y were rlE!VE!r gE!tting any light as to anything being done about it.. They could neve~r get into sE•E! a minis l:E!r or get their problems explained to thE !ffi. MR. RIDEOUT: You are not talking about me, I hope? MR.

EFFORD: No, I would not talk about any rninistE!r like that. Mr. Speaker, the provincial level No. 15 R770

was one problem, but the fedE!ral level was another major problem. Since we have changed, Mr. Speaker, the MinistE!r of Fisheries is now providing an opportunity that they do see some changes coming in place, that they do SE!E! a better future, t.hat they do see there is going to be changes mader to the regulations that drastically effect the inshore fishery, especially when we relate to the fifty-five to sixty-five foot boats fishing on the Grand Banks, absolutely chased by the federal people on a day-to-day basis. No quotas in any sufficiE!nt arnounl:s that to p1novide not even a month 1 s fishing.

We have thirty--one OttE!r trawle1ns now around the coast .of Newfoundland with two weeks fishing. Two weE!ks out of the fifty-two. But since t.his han. member was appointed Minister of FisheriE!S they do see some bright outlook and some changes coming. I want to say how p1eased I am to be abJ.e to sH: between the Minister of FishE!riE!S and the han. Minister of Works, Services and Transportation (Mr. GiJ.bert), because not only are they providing a good job but they arE! also keeping me in line and not letting me jump up as often as I would like to.

For that reason I am very proud to be able to sit down and be able 'j::o work so closely with them . Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague, the Minister of Development (Mr. Furey), I arn going to get around a little later to the Minister of DE!Velopment, and Tourism, and Rural Development, and Northern Development, because he deserves some special attention, Mr. Speaker·, and I am going to make sure that he gets that before this spE!E!Ch is over.

ThE!re are a numbE!r of things that L771 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI we changed and we had to change in the budget, but one of the rE!I'Tiark s made the other day by my hon. friend, when hE! was in- what? I think six hours of speaking, that we we:~re lucky that IAJE! did not g(!t a sales tax increase. I say that thE! people of this ProvinCE! WE!re real lucky that there was a change in government, because if IAJE! had continued on with the past administration, if they were to have had another tE!nn in office, then Newfoundland would not need any sales tax.

They would not have to increase sales tax, because there would be no Newfoundland whatsoever. The major·ity of peop1c~. by l:he ~;;!nd of that term, would be out of this ProvinCE!, and those who would not: have the opportunity of getting out of the ProvinCE! would prob ab1y be half starved to death, so ther E· would be no existence . ThE!re would be no fishery, there would be no jobs, there t.uould be nothing, absolutely nothing, Mr ·. Speaker, for them to do.

The Employment Opportunities Program j n this Province: I had to sit for four years and Listen to a goVE!rnrnent bragging abou L the type of long-ter·m jobs t:hey WE!re creating. When the Employment Opportunities Program was brought in by the Department of Socia l Services, by thE! for·1nE!r administration, to creatE! jobs in t hi s Pro v i n c e , thE! r e was a 1 i t t~.l e in excess of 400 thE! first year· put to work for a ten -week period. Last year there was 12,500 people put to work through the Employment Opportunitj es Program in the Department of Social Services.

Now, what havE! we accompJ.:i.~~hed :.i.n those ten years since that program started? Here js what we have accompLished. We started out with No . 15 R771

a ten week program to put people to work for $200 a WE!E!k. Prior to going to work on that particular' program, thE! Department of Social Services was paying their rent, they were given a basic amount of money to live on, a family of four, for E!Xample, receives $515 a month, and we were supplying tht:1m with a drug card. So thE!Y were getting those benefits before going to work, before earning their $200 a week. When thE! former government put them to work on the t:E:~n--week programs, they received a total of $200 gross income.

Then thE!Y took at.<Jay their rent, took atAJay their drug card, took away the-.ir incomE! subsidy took a11 t:hat atAJay from thl':~tn. Now they must live on that for ten weeks . Then at the end of ten weeks, when they received their layoffs, they have a period of waiting time, approximately no less than four weeks, from the time they are laid off, when they recEdved their last cheque, until they receive their first unemployment insurance cheque .

Then, when they were to the Department of Social Services at that particular time, they were told they shouJ.d haVE! saVE!d enough money from the $200 a week they received, when they had to pay their dr·ugs, their rent, all essential needs, that they should have saved enough money to keep themselves from the period of time they were waiting on their unempJ.oyment insur·ance. Then, when they received their unemployment insurance, they received a total of $124 a week for a family of four.

Now they had to spend a period t::ime going back to the Department of Social Services to try to bE~g for somE! subsidy, and to giVE! a full financial statement. of whE!re they spent thE! money OVE!r the ten L772 JUnE! 19, ].989 VoJ. XLI week period, or twenty week period that they were employed on the Unemployment Opportunities program. Absolutely no incentive tAJhatsoevE:~r fo1" a person to go to work . In fact, they werP for·ced to say, 11 I do not u.Jant to go to work. I want to stay horne, bt:1Ci>.usE:~ if I go to work I am not going to bE! able to fGed rny family.

So I have to stay horne and try to survive on the few dollars I am getting from Social Services. 11 Now you would think after tPn years wit:h a progr·am that: sl:art:E!d out to try to encourage to g0t into the work force, once those fauJ.ts wE~rE! rE!cogn:i ZE~d ::in I. hE'~ departmE!nt --what is happening l:o the p~::wplE!? The incentive is bEdn(j takE•n away fr·om l:he1n -- l:hur'E! wouJ.d have been someth:i.ng don(;! by the department and by government to change direction . Because, obviously, from the very beginning you did not have to be a genius to recognize that it was not working.

WE! are not even so surE~ .if they saved any rnoney on l:he Newfoundland Treasury. I will know that soon. I haVfo! as kE!d my departrrwnt offici .aJ.s to provide rnE! with the information, did we actualJ.y save any money? If that was the pur·pose of the past adrn:inistrat:ion, I do not seE! hmu we could, but let us find out:. But. you wouJ.d th~i nk that Uwy would have had the incentive to say, look, we arE~ not heJ.ping our people. The idea should have been to get the pE!Ople away from be:i,ng dependent on Social Services altogether. Now how do you do that?

Most of those people are uneducated, most of those peopJ.e have no training and thE•y hat)e no opportunity. They are a L an age, it could be twenty-five, thirty, thirty-five year oJ.ds, when they are rnar-riE!d with a fa111ily. If tAlE' No. 15 R772

had taken a port-ion of that money and we had said -to those people, We are going to give you some training -we are not talking about training in computer systems, and we are not talking about flying an a-irplane, about becoming a pilot, we an~ talking about some training -number one. in life skills, in actually how to have the initiative and the aggressiveness to deal with day to day dependency on yourself, and not asking for hclndouts:, How to manage your own affairs, how to approach looking for a job, how to get out there and present yourself to an employer, to train people to deal with themselves.

Secondly, we shou1d bE• looking at how to train people in dealing with the resources that we have in this ProvincE!. For anybody to stand '.in this House of Assembly, or anywhere E•lSE! in this ProvinCE! and tell me that we haVE! no resources, then they should not bE! calling themselves Newfoundlanders or Canadians, because they have no knowledge or no concept of what this Province is all about.

There are lots of things in this Province that people could earn some sort of an incomE! from if we gave them the opportunity to actually look out. through the door and see what is around thE!m, and especially in rural Newfoundland. But thE! merE:~ fact of going to a supermarket or a local industry or a local employment agency to ask for a job, most of those people do not have any skills now to do that. Now if WE! had takE:Hl a portion of that money and we those people, Mr, would have lessened and the dependency had trai.nE!d SpE:~akE:~r, WE! thE! caseload on Social Service.

And by doing that, thOSE! people would have had the l.773 JurlE! 19, 1.989 Vol XLI opportuni ~y of E!arn'.ing more money for themselves, and by lessening the caseload WE! would have takE!n the monies that we had allotted out for Soc:i.al Ass'.istanco and instead of spreading it out and giving it to 20,000 people, iF t.ue did decreased the number by 20 per cent we would have been able to give that allotted money to 16,000, -therefore we would have been able to increase their assistance that much more so l:hE!Y could get more money to live on.

You are never going to provide E!nough mon1:>y for E!VE!l~ybody l:o rE!CE!ive eVE!r'ything LhE!Y nPE!d, but the essential things, the bas:i.c t h i n g s 1 i k e s om E! d e c E• n t F o o cl , n o tAJ that does not takE! any r:31~E'<'tl initiative on anybody1s part. But what I can t1:•ll this hon. Housr:! -is that for the seventeen years that that adrninistrai:.ion L.Ui.'l.S in pot.uer, it did not happen. But in the E!ight WE!eks that we haVE! bE•E!n ·in pouJer, M1~. SpE!akl"!r, that has alrE!ady startE!d to happen.

WE! arE! looking for a new direction to give our people, thE! co1rnnon initiative and the aggressiveness they need to be able to manage themselves, and to realize that you can exist without always asking, and can provide a portion for yourself. Thai:, Mr. SpeakE•r. is a rE!al change, and t:hal: :i.s one of the th-ings that this government is aJ.l about, a r·eal changE! for· a better economic futurE! and the betterment of every individual Newfoundlander and Labrador-ian in this Province. And we will deliver that, Mr. SpeakE!r, make no mistake about it.

Prioriti.E!S: That. is wha·t: Uds government is all about, putt:i.ng your priorities in the right p 1 ace . You know. in a P 1~ o v .inc e like Newfoundland and ~abrador thE!rE! is only a CE!rti:dn amount of No. 15 R773

.!l money, there is a ceiling and there is always going to be a ceiling. We are not going to be able to create an industrial site like Ontario or Montr·eal. We ar·e not going to be able to get access to all the foreign companies coming in, and alJ. the ,industries and manufacturers and the wholesale companies that are set up in Montreal. Our· tax base is dependent on the two main natural resourcE!S we have, the fisher·y and forestry .

And as long as this federal government in Ottawa now keeps making the rules and regulations that they have, then not our fishery is going to go further and fur thE!ln down, and WE! arE! going to get J.ess income from it. So our income is not going to grow in the short term by any gr·eat leaps and bounds. So what we have to do as a goVE!rnment is we haVE! to manage with the amount of dollars we have. We have to put our priorities in the right place and, if we are going to do that, Mr.

Speaker, we have to get the message out to people, ·'Use what we have so that everybody can get the best SE!rvice out of that dollar . ' That is whE !re the For·rner· administration failed, Mr . Speaker, they did not get the mE!SSage across, did not get people to understand that this is what we have to do. OncE ! you tE!ll pE!ople and once they understand and realize that this is what we haVE! to do, that WE! all have to tighten t he bel t a J. i ttl e b i t. , t hey wi 11 work towards that goal.

When they respect the government of the day, the administration, for having their prioriU .E!S in the right place, thE•y tAr.i11 tightE!n up and they wiJ.l realize that their priorities have to be directE!d towards the same end, and they will not bE! as wastE!ful. But you have to set a standard and that is what this government will be L774 JunE! 19, 1989 Vol XLI doing. We will be setting a standard of priorities to give thE! best possible service with the amount of dollars that j_s ava:i1ablE! today.

I know with the number of requests I have gotten from l'rly dE!partmen t. over· the last six to eight weEd<s, there is not enough rnorH:'Y coming out of Fort Knox to say yes to every group that camo to you, to say, 'Yes, we have thE! $1 million, we have the $3 million, we have the $25 million or WE! have l:he $10 mi 11 ion that you a r· E! as k j n g for . 1 But onCE! you sit down and E•xplain to them that what tAle do haVE ! you will be getting your fair share of and you will be fairly dealt with, and we will not be throwing $20 million or $25 million away on cucumbers, and we wi ll not be throwing it away on foolish projects, it tAri1l be pr·iorized and your needs tJJill come fi.rst, they wi11 understand .

Mr. Speaker, I touchE!d briefly on education in this Province tJJhen I said that onE! of the 1na:in reasons that a lot of clients of the Department of Social SE!rvicE !S ar'c" there is lack of education. That is a problem. If you look at rural Newfoundland you will see what is happening. Most of the people are undereducated . The dropout rate in rural Newfoundland is unbelievable, and we have to address that situation. I can honestly say that my colleague, the Minister of Education, in his fE!W short OJeeks in office, has been working constantly night and day.

I have talked to him about thi.s on a number of occasions, and I can definitely pass on to th:ls HousE· of AsSE!mbly and l:his Province that those concerns have already begun to be addrE!SSE!d. We arE! going to No. 15 R77 4-

see a better opportunity for equal education right across this Province. We are not just going to see the urban centers around the Province get the best advantage for education. Rural Newfoundland, everywhere, all the people, are going . to bE:~ given accessibility to equal education. An equal opportunity is going to be made available by this government and by the Minister of Education who is leading his department to ensure equal opportunity and fairness to all peop1e. It. ~;.d11 be addressE:~d and tJJe tJJ'.ill ensurE! that it wtll happen.

That. is one mE!ssage that has already gotten out to the people of this ProvinCE!, and the people are already starting to feel confj.de!nt. Once you start that process people will realize-- they start hr:>aring it in the new media and they start looking at it and reading it that some of the people who are less educatE!d than other's ha•JE! a problem with understanding the education systE!m, but thE! more it is talked about the more they will understand.

That in itself will encourage people to talk to their children and say. 1 Look. you should stay in school and you should get a bettE!r education. 1 We do not expect everybody to be doctors and lawyers and politicians. God forbid! If evc::~rybody runs for politics I might not get re- ·-elected next time. I might lose some of that majority I had in the last election. Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, irregard1ess of what position you take - I tell my own son this you should have an E!ducation. A fishE!nnan nN:~ds an education. A labourer needs an E!ducat:ion.

No matter what you do today you need L775 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI an education. How many pE!OplE! in this Province today. in rura1 Newfoundland, have even got education enough to be self-sufficent on getting their oiJ.m food? NoiJ.J, you say. 1 flow could you possibly need an education for that? 1 When I was growing up, and I would say just about every han. member in this House of Assembly, we surviVE!d on the land. We did not have the money, the $200 or $300 a week. to go to the supermarket. The land is still there. The land has not disappearE!d.

But. what~ has disappeared is the knowledge and the abil :i ty and thE• inj.t:.i.t~t.:i.ve to go out and do that.

Now. :iF WE:~ had s orne sort of program in place and IJ.Je spent. son1c of UlE! dollars rnorE! tAJisely and tAJ!:! educated those people they could b e s e 1 f -s u f F i c i e n t . lrJ e c o u l d t E!l l thE!m: Look, you have a p:i.cCE! of land in your back gardE!n ·- thE!I~e is rrdll:i.ons of land in Lhis Province for farming - and show the people how to grow a few vegetables: You can get Fifty, sixty sacks of potatoes, and carrot and cabbage and all othE!r kinds of vegetables to put jn your cellar for the winter.

ThosE! few dollars invested would alone provide a bet.t:er income, and l:hat is where the }jttle bil or education cernes in. When we say education the first thing we think about is getting Grade XII, qoing on to university and bE!COITiin.g a;1 economist, becoming a doctor, becoming a tE!acher. Education :is much more related to ~very day living than that. In the province of Ontario, they have in their school vocational, because there are a lot of people not capable of going on to university. but t.hE!Y are capable of learning a vocation, whether it. be in car·pentr·y. electrical, or farnr.ing No. 1.5 R775

or some sort, it is taught right in the elementary schools. They get a knowledge, thE!Y get a fair concept that there is something else available, so they have a reason not to drop out. There is a reason to stay in school, thE!re is an interest that keeps them there. In our education system the most thing there is academic and a lot. of kids lose their inter·est, thE!Y are not encouraged by their parents, and therefore the dr·opout rate grows and grows, and that is the reason why we are into the problems that we are in today.

That is why this Province needs an administration which realizes the source of the problem: Before you get the ansW E!r you have to know that the problc::~m exists, and you have to be wiLling to admit that there is a problem out there, and not only is there a problem, it is an expanding problem. Now when you start to put that all togethE!r, when you rE!Cognize that, then you start to look for the solutions. But you must admit there is a problem there first.

When I stood on that side of the House, every time I would stand to my feE!t and ask a question, much like the member for Humber East c.<tsked today on <:i health question, I realized, w:i.th thE! problem that I was having t:o get acr·oss here, that these people did not recognize there was a p'r·oblem there But thE! MinistE!r of Health today, when the question was put, recognized thE!re is a problem there, a nE!ed for that equipment, and h e i s wi 11 i n g to e n s u r e that it t.uill happen, that thE! p·iece oF equipment and the screening program will be provided in the very near future. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! L776 June 19, 1989 VoJ XLI MR. EFFORD : It might take some t:l.ITIE!, and thE! member for Humber East realizes that.., but jt does not take ten years. But you accornpLi.sh ed onE! thing; the Mini ster of Hea l t.h admitted very clearly to you and to everybody the need is there. He did not have to do it, although he knew it. beforE! hE ! camE! to th e Hou se of As sembly . When you wer e on this side, question after question t.uas asked and you den .ied there was a problem, 1 Every thing is okay. What do you expect?

What do you want, E•very thing com·ing all at you o nE ~ ti1 ne ? !.Ale provided a11 kinds of job s, tAJU provided all kinds of opportunities for pE!OpJ.E:• . 1 To say that you pr ·o vi .ded aJ ] kind s of jobs, and 'l:hen I got OV E!r to rny department and rE!a] ized that t~hos e 12,000 jobs they bragged about, Mr.

SpeakE!r, aJ 1 la st year and the YE!ar before and th e year befor e! 1 WE! are cr 'E~ at i ng aJ. :I oF thE!Se jobs, long--term jobs, 12,~)00 jobs provided through the former administration, through the Department of Social Servic es , and duJ~ing that time t:hey half star1; ed to death or haJ.f froze to dea th, and the same for the 42 weeks they were on unemployment insurance. And thE!Y bragged about that, Mr . Sp E!akE!r . We wiJ.l give people something to brag about, we will give people something to bE! proud about. WE! will provide opportunities .

We will provide access to long -term jobs, we w'ill bE! encouraging people to take those people on for longer terms, not just for ten weeks. We wiJ.l provide an incentive for the people to get some warm cJothes for lhe:i.r ch'ildrE!n and somE! food for UH:!ir· bodies so that they will not have to go to school hungry and they No. 1 r :::1 R776

will not have to go to bed at night cold. And it will not takE! ten years, it w'ill not take SE!Venteen years, Mr. SpE!aker, it is happE!ning now. And it is going to happen very, very fast. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE•ar! MR. R. AYLWARD: What is happening? MR. EFFORD: You should have been in a few minutes ago, and you would have hE!ard IAJhat is happE!ning. Because I have outlined what I am going to do with the Employment Opportunities Program already. One of thE! big~Jest problE!ITIS, M1~. Speaker, that I have in my departm(:~nt. is child abuse, and it is a frightE!ning situation.

ThE!rC::~ are approximately today 781 cases of reported child abuse that my department is looking at. Out of that number of cases, I th'ink something like 356 arE! sexuaJ. abuse of children. The so cia 1 workers, the child abuse workers of this Province haVE!, on an averaqE!, a casE! load of ninety-five per worker. The national average for a child abuse worke:~r is twenty--five. Now, that is the rE!SUlt of thE! formE!r administration. I djd not cause that to happen. I have only beE!n here eight li.JE!E!kS. The former Minister of Social Services and the other ministers knew this was happening in the Province.

They knew that that problem existed. It did not happen overntght. It: took some time to get to that situation. We have WE! are place to put rneasurE:~s in place. going to put measures in and we have alr·eady star'tE!d so, wherE!, number one, we to do J_'777 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI are going to find out where, in the Province of Newfoundland and Labr·ador·, the case loads arE! extrE!ITie and wher(:~ thE!Y are not so extreme.

We are trying to Find out exactly if 1-:her·e is need fol" an eitra social worker here, an extra child abuse worker there, and any place in the P1novince that is overstaffed will be analyzed to see exactly what it is all about. AJ.so, Mr.

SpeakE!r, we are going to put preventive ITIE!asures in placE:', b(:~cause an ouncE• of prevent:i.on =i.s worth a pound of cure. nnd if our sociaJ. workers or· somebody in ·Uw fiE•ld says, 1L.ook, l:l"iE!InH i.s a po Lential pr·ob1t:!ITI ::in Lh:_i s particular family. fh:i.s tncHl or this wornan have neg]ected their child1nE!I1 physicdlly or mc•nl:a'l1y, or the pal''enLs are alcoho]::i.c, ot" t.uhateVE!r1 We11, whE!I1 you at"e dE!aJ.j.ng with communities, you can recognize the potential problem, and we are going to put in plaCE! prE•vc~nt.i.VE! rnE!asures and I!JOI"k lt.li l:h thE! famil:LE!S to prevent these sorts of th"ings.

It .is our intention to keep children with thEd.r· families. It:. is bcd:tE!r t.o counseJ. thE! chiJ.drt:'n. You haVE! to deal with t t one way or anothc•r, so you rnay as weJ.J. star·t. at the beginning with prevention. MR. WARREN: That is why your dE!parlrnent took kids away from Nain last week! MR. EFFORD: Not only that, Mr·. SpE!aker, whE•n the case occurs, we have to recognize there is a probJ.em thE!rE!. And, if for thE! safEd:y and thE! protection of the childr·en, we have to remove children from a family, then we have no alternative but to do it. And, surely goodness, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

WarrE!

n) would not E!Xpect th:Ls dt:!par·t:rnent., No. 15 1\ 'l '7 7

or any department or any ministE!r anywhere in this country to leave children in a home and have some thing sE•r-.ious happen to them. We have to provide protection for children. I d-.id not tell the member for Torngat Mountains that. all preventive measures were in place. We have started to put preVE!ntive measures in place. WE! are working with families and we are doing something about the case loads of child abuSE! workers and social workers. Also, Mr. Speaker, we are doing something about follow -up after problem s are identified. WE! arE! not go:i.ng to forgE! t about the family .

After· thE ! problE!I'TI is idE!nt:i.fi E•d, you have to work with the family. You have to providE:~ a propE!ln horne for· the chtld, and thE! propE•r i.'l.nd best horne for the child is with the family. In a lot of casE~s, you can provide thE! counselling nE!E!dE:~d -.in that home l:o provide the type of home and the love and care that is needed for the chtld. One cannot simply go in, grab the child, take it out of the home and forget about it.

It is a very complex and serious situation, and we are going to have a change, a real change that lAtill prov-.ide better opportunities for those victims of child abuse, supportive of the families. Because there are cases where you have two parents, one of thorn calling for· help with child abuse. Therefore, the other parent needs proper counselling, and follow---up to provide a better opportunity for the child to stay with its family. That help will - be provided by this department. Mr .

Speaker, that is what th ·is governrnE!nt is aJ.l about, pr·oviding the carE! and opportunity for thE! people of this Province to be able to deal with the day-to-day situations they encounter.· We alJ. L'778 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI do not have E!qual opportunity, IAJE! are not all the same .

There are many, many problems with Jiving in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and we have to ensure that whether they are in the field of education, counseJ.J:i.ng, job opportunity, or in providing the decent essentials of everyday life, WE! have, as a goVE!rnment, to provide accessibiJ.it.y to all people to avail of our help . When you put. your priorities in the right place, Mr. Speaker, and the people of this Province reaJ.ize that, then everything will come together and wiJ.l work, because thE!Y knot~.J thE!re ·is a gcHJ( !r·ntnE!nt here now that cares about pooplo .

I have just a couple of rn:inub =!s lE!Ft, Min. SpeakE!·r. I I.J.Idnt Lo touch very bri ef ly on my department in the area of youth correction . I was questioned today in the House of Assembly about youth correction. I adm :i t:, l:hE!re clrE! problems cu-.il:h youth correction, there are problems with the training progr·am and ther'E! ar·e problems w:.i Lh pr 'ov:i d:.Lng facilities. But I t:E!lJ. you VE!ry cJ.early, as you aJ.ready knotAJ, tl1 :is government did not cau se the problE!ITIS. That gover·nmE!nt caused the problE!fns. This goVE!rnrn1:!nt :is going to do something about the problems.

This government .is going to provide a better opportunity for those young boys and girls who arE! victims of circumstance. We are going to provide better opp6rtunity for children in institutions so that when they get back in society, they will be properly educated and be able to get jobs. BecausE!, in the past, when they have left : youth correction centres, they have gonE! back into thE! cornmurdty, Mr. Speaker, to the sarne environment thE!Y came out of, tAli th no family life, no job No. 15 R'778

opportunities, and no education opportunities. And what happens? The circle starts aJl over again - back into the system. Out in rny district in Conception Bay we haVE! alrE!ady put in place an alternative measures program.

That alternative measures program means working with the young peoph~. working with thE! boys in i: he co mm u n i t y to k e e p t h EHn o u t of secure custody. to let them work in the community instead of serving sentences in an instttutton and, probably, in most cases , IJJO r king lJJi t.: h the vic U.m whom they committed the offense against, so that they 1Ad11 realize and haVE! a bEd:tE!r undE!rstandtng of what they did and the trouble that they causE!d, a bEd:tE!r understanding of holAJ to cope wi.th it, and a better understanding that there is an alternative to what they have done.

ThE! most important thing is Uwy wiJ.l realize that this volunteer group, who arE! provid.ing this alternative measures program, cares about thE!m. That is onE! of thE! problems with those young offenders. thE:~Y do not have the people within their own families who really show them any care and any love and any attention. In a lot of cases it has been proved by psychiatrist and statistics that these people did a lot of those things. corrHni tted a lot of those offenses because thE!Y WE! rE! lacking the attention.

Once we provide the opportunity for them to get the attention and get the care they need, then we will change thEd.r lives around. You are not going to do it. Mr. Speaker, in every case. But if you only do it in some of the caSE!S. if you only decrease it by a number, every dollar that you could possibly spend, Mr. SpE!aker, would be WE!11 L'/'79 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI spent, because you the lives of some and girls. would improve of those boys Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: -·------·-·-The hon. the member for Humber Valley. MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

WOODFORD: In opening l:hE! fetJJ minu\:es I have l:o spE!ak on tho BuclgE•t d(!bat.e. Mi". Speaker. I IJJOU ld 1 ike l:o l:e 1.1 how a fE!IAJ yE•ar·s ago, IAJhen far11ter'~ out. West wei~E! hdv.ing a hard t.oLrnE! oF i.t.. I tJJaJ.ked int.o an oU.:i.ce one day and I satJJ up OVE!r a farrnef"·' s desk a sort of plaque 01~ lTl(!lTlento wrrich show'"'d a cow w:i.Lh ('.\ fal~nwr holding on to its taLl.. a bank.or· holding on l:o its head, and a lawyer under the cow milking it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE•ar! MR.

WOODFORD: In rE!lation to the budget, I lJJouJ d say that the taxpayer is on the tail end this t:i.me, thE! Min:i~;t:er· of Finane~:· is acl:.in•;:J as the banker. on the head. and tho Premier is doing thE! m:i.1king. In any casE!, it is just a l~oference to whal: has b.een happening .in conjunction with the budget and thE! $95 m:ill.ion tax grab l:hal: tAJas released only a coupJ.e of weeks ago. Mr. Speaker. .i l: is E!V"ident evE•rylAJhere you go :i.n l::h:i~~ Province. Everywhere you go!

You have the increase in pE!rsona.J :income tax, you haVE! the 10 per CE!nl: :LncrE!ase in tujtion feE!S, t.he tax exemption on children's clothing·. and you can go on. No. 15 1\7'79

Those taxes are something you can sE•e and somE!thing you can relate to. Granted you ar·e going to nl':~ed tax increasr:~s somewhE!re along the road regardless of what administration is in power, but you usually take where it is more palatable and less hurtful to thr:! people involved, espedalJ.y the poor people of the Province. In this case there is taxation in this budget not talked about at all. indirect that is The first onE! to come to mind is the one on, for instance, municipalities.

There are three forms of governlllE!nt, fE!dert-11, pr·ovincial and rnunicipal in this PrnovincE!, and one pasSE!S thE! buck to the other, no doubt . We hav ~C• the cost-sharing on incinerators reduced from 75/25 to 60/40 in the budget, and, nat.uraJ.ly, sorTJE!Wht:'rE! along thE! way this has to bE! passed along to the taxpayer in l:hE! communities. This will bE! more evidE!nt come this FaJ.J., after the budgets are done up for the end of the year, December 31. And it goes on and on.

We say, yes, that 20 per cent of the local reVE!nue is pa :i.d on capital debt, but those municipalities have to get revenue from somewhere. It was only the other day, I think, the minister statE•d there was $150 million worth of rE!quests for municipal affairs and we got $50 miJ.lion . LE:~t us fact. it, somewhere along the way someone has to pick up t11E! tab, so thE! ordinary Joe picks it up in a municipality as welJ. as picking it up on his per·sonal ·income tax or some other form of taxation.

I am no senior around hE!re, as I have only four years in as an MHA, but I have a word of caution, especially for some of the new members who have spoken in the 1_780 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI budget debate or to resolutions. The one thing I have noticed is that there is a reaJ. sense of cockiness, so to speak. SeJ.f- --confidE!nce :is one thing, but cockiness is ano!:her. ThE!re :is a lttth~ bit of it and I IAJould just to caution thE!m. All this blame that is going back and forth, that is all WE~ hE~ar. Granted it :is on both sides, but., as I think thE!

Premier mentioned a few weeks ago, we are not going to get anywher·e blaming each other. Get up and be constructive, on both s:Ldes. We are big enough, we have been in the business long enough to be ablt:.> to b'lke thE! heat and not hdtJe to gE•t out of the k:Ll.chen. -lhc bloom wLll be off t:hE! r··osE! bE!"I~or'e t-.oo J.ong. It j s lhere nOIAJ, j t is a honeyrnoon, so to spl ;•a k, but: il is likE! getting in a srw~\Jer', one wrong turn and you could be in hot water·. So you had better" be carnE!Ful. This is just a l:it:1:.1E! word of caution to new members. I went through it.

The Economic Recovery Commission that was set up by the Premier and his administration, I, For one, would be the first one to congratulatE! thEHn and go along l:o any member of that commission, or any member opposite, and say it lAJas onE! of the best idE'as sinU'! sl:iCE!d bread . It is in place now and I hope more than anybody in this Legislature, or in this ProvinCE!, that. it works. I arn not going to blamE! ever·ything seventeen years. seventeen years J.ook back and on thE! pc~st OVE!r the past the past good things doubt about administraton put. some i n p 1 a c e . T h e r· e ·i s n o it.

It was not. all were some good things . bad . There:' SOMF HON. MEMBFRS: Name them . No. 15 1\'780

MR. WOODFORD: I can name them. There must haVE! bE!en someth'ing awf u J. J. y g o o d , f o 1n i n s tan c e , a n d I do not int.E!nd to back away fr·om it, if everybody, over the past two years at least, is talking about the $21 million spent on Sprung. Well, I tAJould say tAle should gE!t a mc,~dal for bedng ex ce llE! nt managers if that is the onJ.y monies that were spent wrong out of the total budget of this Province. That. is the only nc~gatiVE! thing I heard. What happened to all the other dollars, the fourteen hundred-and-some-odd million doJ.lars that werE! ~~pent?

There must have been some spent right. I wilJ. not touch on that now, I will comE! back to it later. I do not intend backing away from it, in any case. I have great respect for every educator and evE! r y a cadem:L c in this Province, but if we go back to the commission that was SE!t up in 1967 and 1968, if we• go back to the Whelan Commission that was set up, I bc~lieve, ln the c~arly SE!VentiE!S, which came :i.n with the report on municipal government, the House Commission of 1986 on Employment and Unemployment, and now the Economic Recovery Commission that is going to be the saviour of thE!

Province, on E!Very one of these commissions, if you go back and look, they were alJ. academics and E!ducators. We just heard the Minister responsible for Social Services SclY, and I agree with him , that there i s a 11 kinds of E!ducation. There arE! two kinds at least. All successfuJ. people haVE! an education. Some get it without going to s c h o o l and some gE!t it after going to school. In the Commission on Employment and UnE!Inployment it strE!SSE!d the rural importance of the Province, some L781 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI 500 communities represented by rural development associations around the Province.

I think it. is 80 per cent in rural areas, ruraJ. munid.palib.es, or· what have you. For example, have the Federation of a president Newfoundland in this ProvincE! we President of the Agriculture, WE! have or chairman of the Sat.1.Hni 11 E! tn S Association in the Province, we have thE! prE!Sident or cha.ir·rnan oF the Newfoundland Federation of Municipalities, we have the same with the Credit Unions, we have l:hE! presidr,!ni: or thE! cha"innan of thE! Rut~aJ. DE•vE!lopmE!nL A~;soc:lat.:.ions in thE! ProvincE•. Why do tuf:! not see any of those people on the Co1nmission?

On thE! adv.i.soi~y pdr1.:. of it. we see sotnE!. I see orw narnu there, Gerald Smith, a good man. He was good in the Rural DE!VeloprnE!nt Associations in thi.s Province and I rE!SpE!Ct h:.i.m. He is on the <.1.dvisor·y par·t oF thr:! board. ThE!re is no doubt t.hat. hE! will add something to it. And JeromE! Wa1sh, from the Feder·ation o f M u rri c .i p a 1 i t i c" s , h e .i s o n t h e advisory part. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WOODFORD: I am talking about the five member body, the top.

Now, some oF the names I have mentioned this evening ar·e people who are qui t.E! capable of wr:i l:ing up r·eports and who are quite capable of filling in applications. But hov.J many of thE! five membE!rS at the top, thE! f:.i.IJe ITJE•mbers of t.he first par·t of the board --t:hE! Econotrr.ic RE!COVE!Y'Y TE!arn, I should say, I ant gE·tting it mixed up now. Then there is an advisory team -how many of thosE• No. 15 W781

a., .; five people have run a business of their own? How many? Someone tell me. In the rural areas of this Province, and I will name just !:he dairy business alone, Mr'. Speaker, FCC, Farm Credit Corporation, estimates that it costs $8,000 per cow unit: to run a dairy operation. You might as well whistle in the dark and forget it if you are going to start with under a fifty cow herd. That is a $400,000 investment, minimum. Most units in the Province today which have been in business for any time~ ar'E! r·unning anyt.uhE!re fr'o1n that t.o $1 m:i.] lion or $1. 4. miLl :i.on in business assets.

Now that is r·unni.ng your· bus ·inc:-ss in a rural aree1 of the Province, as big a business as you have anywherE! in this Province. They know t.uhat they arc~ doing. It :is not like it was years ago when the farmer would comE! in and rnark his X to sign his name. Those days are gone. They were well-intentioned, they knew what they were doing, but they just did not get the chance to get an E!ducation.

As I said bE+ore, iF anybody is going to be successful, whether it be in that or any other part. of thE! rural devE~lopment movement today in this Province, t.hey have an education, as I said, whE!thE!r they got it without going to school or whether thE!Y got it after. They know what .business is all about.

And not only that, they are coming from areas of the Province where we are going to have to identify, whether it be the Commission or whether it be us as politicans, or someone else, thE!Y arE! coming from areas whE!re things matter· most, and thos.::~ ar·e the rural areas of the Province where we are going to have to make somE! changes. 1_'782 June 19, 1989 Vol XLI All things over the years have beE!I1 'idE!nt:ifiE!d. We have problems in agriculturE:~ --- room to grotJJ and JnenewablE!; we have problE!mS '.in thE! for'E!Stry --· roorn to g1not.u and renewable.

We have problems in mining, not so much becausE! :it is, I suppose, controlled by outside interests, you need big bucks and thE!Y can choose wherE! to put them. In the fishery, God kno!AJS, there are all kinds of problr::~rns. Tourism is another area that is all rr:!newablE!. So I am talk·.ing about the fishery, agr·:LcultuJnE•, forestry, and tour·:isrn. The Minister of Social Services just rnentiorwJ the rE!SOur·ces UJe ha1Je i.n this Province. We are blessed with Y'!:!sour·ces in th ·is I)Or ·ovinc E!, but we cannot seen to get lhem going to the point where every rnan, woman and ch:i. Jd should be· wor·kinbg.

We arE• morE! or less sending out all raw product and having nothing to do with secondary processing . We have 580,000 souls in this Province, and evr::~ry man, woman and ch:i.Jd her'E! should be t.uor·king. ;'3o what is wrong? We have to identify the problems before we can find the solution.

We can set up aJ.J. the commissions WE:' likE!, !AJe can pay them what WE! likE!, WE! can spend as many hours in boar·drooms as we like, but unless we get someone with practical_ experience, who is not afra'.id to gE!t dot.un in the mud and get their hands dirty, who can do something practical, who can know when an individual comes i.n with his applicat ·ion wherE:' hE! is corning fr·om, t.ue wi1l not solve t:he problE!tnS. I hdve often said that bureaucrats are people who figure God gave thE!ln ten rc~strictions instead of the TE!n Commandlflents. As sure as I arn s t .anding behind No. 15 W782

this mike today, when this Commission's rE!port comes in tAJi.ll it not be said that, for instance, the paper companies in the Province have control over our timber resources? They have. I have said it before, and I mentioned it when talking about ruraJ. development herE! earlier. Where do you get the resour·ce to bring to the sawmiJ.lers in this Province or anything else to do with timber rE!Sources in this Province? Where do you get it? It is like the f.is hE!ry now. Whatever is closest to us we wiJ.l putnsue, and whE!n that :is gone and caught up, what happens? WE! are too late then.

We have nothing ready to moue offshore. It is the same thing with everything. We hayE:~ a tendancy to just grab t.uhat is close to us. The samE! thing around the roads. The timber companies use the same analogy. They cut what is closest. What is :in the back is lE!ft thE!re. fhe person who can surviVE! on a 150,000 or 200,000 board fe!et of lumber a YE!ar in the littlE! sawmill, htring four or f'.iue . people·-I am not talking about eight or· tE!n months ·-they could be working YE!ar-·round if thE!Y had access to the timber·. It is there, but it is not accessible.

Solution: We either get the cloSE!r stands back fr·orn the timber companiE!S or E:~J.SE! we ··-I say 'we' -as a gouernment_put tn the roads so that thE!Y can access that ttmber. There is no other way to do it. In the Hampden arE!a of Wh:ite Bay, in my district, we started on dn area last year when the other minister was inuolVE!d. We thought to get the timber· company to pass it over to l:hE! Crown so that the sawmiJ.Jers could access it and L783 June 19, 1989 Vo 1 XLI have it for their own USE!. That is not ftnalized yed:, but hopefully the new minister will pursue that and brtng it to fruition.

BE!Cause aLL those things in agriculture are rE!newablE!, again. We do not have to wait. We do not have to do anything. We can r~;:~new it every year, plant, SE!E!d, and harUE!St. Granted we are at the whims of nature, but thE:~n again '7S per CE!nt to 80 per cent of l:he people involved in the arg:icultural industry in this Province today are doing well. No matter what industry you are in, you ar·e go::i ng to hau1:! a cer·l~ain pOl"l~.ion that :Ls not going to do tA.IE!l], rnaj n1y d11c to managE!tnE!I1l:. ~nd nal:l.t1"E! controls a lot of it, I guess. fler·tnanent jobs: A]1 those thjn~J~:. alne true.

By l:he tJery naturE! of our Province, namely climatic cond:i t:ions, wha l: do t.JJE! do and how do we hold on to pt::'r'tTtanE•nt jobs? How can we say you atnE' going to work twelve months of t.ho year' :in this Province? Cl'.\11 somebody tell me that? How are you going to tA.Io r· k twe 1 u r;! rna nth s of l: hE! y 1:! a tn .in the fishery? How are you going to do it in forestry? Forestry, for instance, the one that COITIE!S to mind, only a coup1e of years ago ·we he1d i"l 1neal cr·isis on our hands in thE! HurnbE!r' Va11ey area. Kruger wanted people in the woods.

One way or thE! othE•r' thE!Y had to be tn there cutting eight-foot wood, not four like they did YE!ars ago. but edght--foot wood with five and six feet of snow around them. Most Newfoundlanders are no Will Chamberlains. They are much li.ke myself, average height, and you know what that is l.ikE! going around in five or six feet of snot.u, with a power saw, ttny:ing l:o cut eight-foot wood and pile it. No. 15 1083

So we went with them and the union and sat down and talked to Kruger and said, 'Look, why not put a fE!W extra people on in the Summertime and the Fall, cut what wood is needed and, for God's sake, let the people go home in thE! depths of the Winter when the going is rough, for three or four months, and let them do what everybody else is doing, taking it easy?' No problem! Done! The other thing in relation to working alJ. year is, how can you do it? You have forestry. There are parts of it, the sawmilling industry, whE!re you can.

It is a little rough because of the ice on everything and stuff like that, but it can be done if you have access to it . The fishery: You cannot do j_t.. Agriculture: ThE!re are certain commodity groups in th!i:~ agricultural SE!Ctor IAJhE!re you can do. You cannot do it with root crop. You have a job to grow that in the nor ·rnal months of the year let alonE! i.n thE! WintE!rtimE! . You can grow it all year in greenhouses, the twelve months. This is one of the things that has to be addresssed. We can only have so many paper mills.

We can only have so many, say, fish plants that can work year-round and access the Northe•rn cod and so on. We can have all kinds of things that are relative to the service sector in the Province, but we have to have the fish plants, we have to have the Krugers of the world in order to have something value-addE!d so that the MinistE!r of Finance has extra revenue to work with.

We can hire all the nurses we like, we can build all thE! hospitals we like, all the schools and all thE! universities, value added to the economy of this Province, but it is not going to gE!nE!rate any L'784 Jum~ 19, 1989 Vol XLI revenue, except for thE! taxes t.hat. come from wages, in ordE!r to do thE! other things that neE!d to be done in this Province. WI':~ almost have a tendency to look at the big, and overlook the obvious, and that is so true whE!n you J.ook at mega projects like the Hibernias of thE! world, thE! Churchill FaJ.J.s of the world, and some othE•r projects. Yes, they are there.

We have to have them. And I hope that over thE! nE!Xt. fE!W months at. least a couple of th(~m t.~.ri.ll come through, namely, the Hibernia thing and Churchill Falls. But we haue to have the small stuff, the t.hings tha ·t·. arE :• ~~o:.l.n~J to work in the rural areas and are going to generate jobs for even eight or n in e months or-~ 1: he y c:• a r so that municipalities in which those people live can stand on their own two feet, they do not have to re ly as rnuch on (::JOVE!rnlllE!I'll:. funding.

If you have a good tax b a s e , y o u s t a r t a t t h E' b o l: t o m , y o u have a good foundation, you build. If you have a good tax base in your local municipaJ.ity, you are going to haue it Provincially, and you ar·E:~ go:i.ng to have it federally. I mentioned about the bureacracy a little while ago. How oftE!n havE• I sat dot.un at my dE:!sk, as ·r am surE! othE!r rnernbE!rs in this Legislature have, and SdiAJ someone sitting across from me with a million dollars worth of education and not a nickel's worth of common sense?

And it is so true all throughout. our sys t.em; t.hE!Y get j n and they gr::~t flusterod. You t.~.ri.ll look at So-and-So in his shirt: and tie and his double breastE!d suit, and all of a sudden he cJarns up; the idea he came in l:o I:. he office 1.1dth is gonE• dm~om the tubes because he cannot express himself. I have seen it! I have No. 1 S 1na4-

had people come to see me sinCE! I got in poLitics and because I had switched from coveralls to a suit, they figured I changed completely. Not so! If we have persons who are lawyers, or persons who are teachers, they cannot be blamed for that. We all have our chosen careE:~rs i.n life, but we should have something, some kind of system whereby if I, say, do not know anything about the law profession, or the education system, I will consult.

It is likE! the young fellow onE! time 1.uho said if swap a car you sti1l have a car, but it you swap ideas you have your old thought and your new one, you have something to work w:Lth. Which is so true for everyone, no matter who you talk about or whom you talk to in the Province. I mEHltioned thE! Rural DevelopmE!nt Associations in a speE!Ch about a week ago. The Rural Development Authority: Something I do not agree with is taking the Rural Development Authority out of a small department where it is pretty well on its own and putting it in with Development.

I was always a critic of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporat:ion. I do not mind saying it. I said it :in caucus. I said it publicly and I do not mind saying it today. It was too big. If I wanted to comE:~ in off the street as a small operator and get a loan through NLDC, it was just as well for me to go meet with the bankers in New York. The one thing the Rural Development Authority has goi.ng for it now is that the Minister looking after that department is from a rural area of the Province and he can associate with the people in his district and the area which hE! serVE!S. That may bE!

L785 June 19, 1.989 Vol XLI a plus, and it. may not be as bad as I think it is going to be. Then, again, thE! jury is out on that. But it is a good program. I think last YE!ar we had to put. extra money into it to the tune of $7.5 miJ.lion. The jobs ident:i.fiPcl in it were something like 25 to 37 weeks for each onE:~. And not onJ.y that, it helped the private sector. It was expanded in 1986 or 1987 into the serviCE! SE!Ctor, which really helped, because the tour:isrn industry t:ic~d in t.~.dth t-.:he restaurant businE!SS and so on.

In my area, Humber Valley, .il: rE~a1ly heJped, where tourism is a big plus and ·is only corn"intj on as oF 1a t..E•. I hop