Manitoba Hansard — 29 May 1978 (Sitting 51B, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-51b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 29, 1978 Time: 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. James R. Ferguson: Gentlemen, we now have a quorum. We are on Item 5.(

a) and the only speaker that 1 have listed here is the Member for Selkirk. Oh, I'm sorry, the Member for Transcona wasn't finished . Okay , carry on. MR. PARASIUK: I'd like to ask the Minister if there are any particular plans for the property in South St. Boniface now . He indicated that they're close to a development agreement and if a development agreement is signed, which I gather is at any particular moment, they could proceed to call for tenders for the installation of the first level of services in that property with respect to Phase I.

Is that the plan of the Minister and the corporation at this time with respect to the South St. Boniface property? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Housing . MR. JOHNSTON: On the South St. Boniface piece of property, when it's returned to us at MHRC , we intend to take a look at the development plan that has presently been put together by Leaf Rapids Corporation and decide whether we think it is a development plan that will suit that area and will be saleable lots.

The reason for that is because of the experience we're having in Selkirk ::- that I've gone through and I don't think that that will take us too long to take a look at the development proposal or plan I believe it is called, that is ready to go to the city and that's the plans we have at the present time for St. Boniface. MR. PARASIUK: I gather he's aware that with respect to the South St.

Boniface property, the planning process there entailed a great deal of consultation with local groups in the area and when the zoning approval was given some months ago , the community committee commended the corporation on the degree to which there was involvement with local groups . So I think that in terms of the zoning process, in terms of the planning process, the local people in and around that area .,. certainly have had a good idea of what will be happening in that development and seem to have given their approval to it. .. Can he tell us the value attached to the property in South St. Boniface? MR.

JOHNSTON: Well, the value with the total costs all added in, the purchase price, taxes, survey fees, interest costs, for all land feasibility studies, administration, interest and legal expenses is $611 ,000.00. MR. PARASIUK: Does that include the amount spent on the planning to date to bring it to a development agreement stage? MR. JOHNSTON: No, when you get into planning and design and consulting, marketing, interim financing, administration ... At the present time, it's at $1,104,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just a moment. Would the member wait to be recognized for transcribing? MR.

JOHNSTON: The present costs are at $1,104,515 .00. MR. PARASIUK: We are talking roughly about 200 acres in South St. Boniface, is that correct? MR. JOHNSTON: 197.5 acres. MR. PARASIUK: So we're talking about 197.5 ... 2807

Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. Just a second. We don't have a debate going between you or a private conversation. Let's keep the thing straight for transcribing. The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Roughly speaking , we're talking about 200 acres.

I've talked to some land developers about prices of land and the difficult thing to determine is whether in fact the land is ready to go and that means whether it's gone through the zoning process, whether it's received agreement through a development agreement and I gather this one is right at the stage where, really it's right at the stage of having the development agreement signed. These people tell me that that type of land that has a development agreement signed could be worth, at a minimum, $30,000 per acre.

So we're talking about land that, if a development agreement is imminent, is worth a minimum of $6 million. We have spent to date, or the government has spent to date, $1.1 mill ion. Now this is land that is obviously a hot piece of property in Manitoba. It's land that is worth a great deal. I'm speaking in minimum price terms; it depends on the type of development that is put in there as to whether the land is worth more than $6 million but $6 million is a fairly conservative estimate of ready-to-go land.

Given that, the overall profit and loss statement on Leaf Rapids Corporation is obviously a very favourable one. It would , even by the Minister's accounting, probably be in a picture of having a profit or a presumed profit even at this stage of $5 million . Can the Minister indicate how that land will be disposed and whether there is going to be any type of reserve pricing on that land if it is put up for sale to be developed by someone else other than Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation at this stage, seeing as how Leaf Rapids Corporation obviously will not be developing that property? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman , the member has put a price of $6 million on the property, but if the decision is taken to proceed with the development of Phase I, then the Corporation will be required to let construction contracts with the approximate value of $3 million. All the planning and everything is done, but there is another $3 million to be added if we go ahead with development. From that point of view there is no question that if it were sold with a development agreement on it, it would be worth much more money, but certainly whoever buys it has to spend a lot of money developing it, or we have to.

His question is: What is going to happen to the property if we don't develop it? As I said to the member earlier today, if we don't develop that property , I have said it will be houses and there are several ways of doing it in such a way that we will be able to be in a position to see that there is houses on it and see that there is houses on it that low-income families can be involved in. It is just the same as the city is talking about going into a development agreement with Qualico in St. Vital. Those things could be done, but there has been no decision made on it as yet. MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr.

Warren Steen: The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , I wish the Mini ster could be somewhat more specific on how he could envisage houses getting on that property . Conc eivably if you sold the land for $1.1 million to a development company, you would recoup that which you had put into the property even though it has a value much greater than $1.1 million and conceivably the development company could then proceed to develop that land even though you sold it at under price. I am not saying that you would do that but 1 am saying that these are the possibilities that exist.

Do you envisage establishing a management contract with the land development company or do you envisage auctioning it off in a sense to the highes t bidder, which given, in a sense, the desirability of the property might be a good possibility and then putting some conditions into the auction to ensure that MHRC had access to some of the property. Is that what the Minister is talking about? I think that this isn't that unfamiliar to MHRC especially since they are developing land north of Inkster Boulevard.

So I would hope that the Minister could give us some specific answers as to what the intent is with respect to that property? MR. JOHNSTON: What was the last sentence , Mr. Chairman? MR. PARASIUK: I'd like to get some specifics as to how the Minister envisages housing going in there if MHRC doesn't develop it itself . MR. JOHNSTON: Well, 1 hope that I'm not trying to be dense or anything but I have said that 2808

Monday, May 29, 1978 the land is in the hands of MHRC . If we do not like the development proposal that has been put forward by Leaf Rapids Corporation, we could take a look at one of our own. The property could be sold at tender or we cou ld enter into a development agreement with a contractor and to be more specif ic than that , I'm going to have a hard time because there has been no decision made on it as yet . MR. PARASIUK: Okay.

The reason why I'm asking questions about specifics is that if you tender it out , which as I said , given the desirab ility of the property might be a good course of action to pursue, there would probably be a very good chance that the big four land developers would be quite interested in ensuring that they purchase that property and they may, in fact, or one of them may in fact pay the highest price.

Is it the government's intent to auction off property without putting any constraints on it because the reason why that land was purchased through a land banking program in the first place was to provide for some type of competition to the big four land developers that presently, in a sense, have a pretty strong position in the land servicing market in Manitoba . MR. JOHNSTON: Well, that 's quite true and I think I said earlier today it 's our desire to have constraints to make sure that the smaller contractors have the opportunity to become involved in any property that MHRC owns .

There 's no question that we don 't want to see that piece of property be used by one big developer. The member says if we put it up for tender that could very easily happen but there can be constraints when it's put up for tender and, as I said, those are some of the things we will be looking at. The honourable member is probably wondering why we are concerned about the plan of South St. Boniface. West Selkirk was purchased for $2,580 per acre . The consulting , administration and servicing costs exceed $48,000 per acre and, you know, no development should exceed more than $37,000 per acre.

We want to take a close look at what the plan is and the costs and everything of the plan that has been presented to us by the Leaf Rapids Corporation. MR. PARASIUK: Well, I would question the Minister saying that no land should be developed for more than $37,000 an acre . I think if the Minister checks in the private housing industry , you'll find instances where land has in fact been developed for more than $37,000 an acre. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, it's not all that common to be over $37,000 per acre .

It was running $25,000 per acre about two years ago; it's up to approximately, the average , the most runs around $35,000 at the present time and certainly not more than $40,000 if we want to draw straws, but $48,000 per acre is what the land in southwest Selkirk has cost , $48,000 .00. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman , I know of land that The Bay has purchased think ing of a shopping centre but not quite sure whether they 'll proceed with the shopping centre , where they are talking in the order of $40,000 to $44,000 for land alone; and I know that land development companies are interested in purchasing that land from The Bay on a contingency basis, for up to $44,000, provided that there is a development agreement in place . I'm saying that the land in south St. Boniface does have a development agreement. It depends on the usage, in large part. What I'm pointing out, however, is that the property in south St.

Boniface is worth a great deal and it is worth a great deal because the public invested in it and held it and it's worth money now. The point is, how will that increment, that increased value that exists because the Crown owns that property , be utilized?

And that's why it's quite important to determ ine whether , in fact , the Crown will develop that land itself , to ensure that serviced land is provided at as close to cost as possible ; or whether , in fact, it would be possible to - you know , I think the government is interested in possibly selling that land - and I'm concerned that it doesn 't sell the land at a give-away price . That's why I'm raising these points and I find that the Minister hasn't got any specific answers to those questions . MHRC owns a lot of other property as well, through land banking .

It would be interesting to note what the values of that land that the MHRC holds right now, is. Can we get an idea of how much the land costs? Can we get an idea of what the carrying costs are? And can we get some idea of what that land might be worth in different parts of Winnipeg? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I think the last question is, what is the intent of the province to do with the land bank? MR. PARASIUK: Yes. 2809

Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I have to accept the criticism, I guess, that I cannot give specific answers as to what is going to happen to the land bank which is owned by the Province of Manitoba, at the present time. I have said that the land bank that we have will be used for housing, and if there are profits made that the member is speaking of, those profits will be used to benefit housing in the Province of Manitoba and benefit low income families to be able to get into houses, in the Province of Manitoba. There is no question about that.

Now the policy of what will be done with the land bank, we discussed the other night when the Member for Fort Rouge asked me. There was one opinion of his that thought that we should maybe, if we were going to sell it, dump it all on the market at the same time. I'm not completely in agreement with that suggestion. But the policy on the land bank, or the property that the province owns, even in land bank and even properties throughout the Province of Manitoba, in towns, cities, is under discussion at the present time.

But I can assure them that the land was purchased for housing; it will be housing; or it will be - well, I don't see that the land can be used for anything else, it will all be negotiated and sold for housing or any profit derived from those properties will be used to benefit the housing in the Province of Manitoba and more than likely, in benefiting people with low incomes being able to get into their own homes . MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister in the past, and I think some other members of this party, have been somewhat critical of the Provincial Government in the past, acquiring land through the Federal Land Banking Program. They've pointed out that the acquisition of this land has resulted in the province incurring liabilities. What is always forgotten, however, is that against these liabilities, are assets; assets that seem to be appreciating very quickly and which are very very valuable.

Now, the whole point of the land banking program, when the Federal Government announced it - and the province responded in response to a federal initiative just as I think the province, right now, is responding in response to federal initiatives regarding housing policy - and the intent was to acquire this land and it was to service some of it, service some of it on a continuing basis so that the availability of serviced land would have some impact on the market. Now, this is what the Member for Fort Rouge was raising when he said it would be quite important to try and provide more serviced land.

The previous government was going to try and provide serviced land at a steady clip, something in the order of 200 to 300 lots per year. I don't see the present government making that type of commitment. The present government says it's not sure whether it will be providing serviced land, and that would defeat the whole reason for the land bank in the first place. The Member for Fort Rouge has asked whether there will be more serviced land becoming available.

I'm asking, specifically, whether it is the policy of this government to proceed with the development or servicing of something in the order of 200 to 300 lots per years from the land bank, which is quite large, which the province presently holds . Is it the intent to service 200 to 300 lots per year? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that there's any question about the policy of the government as to being in the land development and servicing land .

I think , if we went back through our election campaign or if even discussion in the House, or anything of that nature, it is not the intention of this government to be a large land developer . To date the government has not been successful in developing land. To date we are in a position where we develop land and of having been at a deficit position on most of them . Land development is a business where you naturally have a piece of land.

You've got your estimates of the market , the size of lots that will be sold on that piece of land , the mix on the piece of land and after you develop it and put the roads and everything in, you hope that you've got the right thing and you hope that the market hasn't gone soft on you. The development business is a fairly risky type of business for government to be in and we haven't been successful at it.

We haven't been successful in The Pas; we haven't been successful in Winnipeg ; we haven't been successful in West Selkirk - you know, the member puts up all kinds of arguments on West Selkirk and at the present time we cannot sell a piece of property in West Selkirk . If we sell it at cost plus ten, we will be above the market in the area of Winnipeg and Charleswood . As a matter of fact, Charleswood - in the paper tonight - you can buy a piece of property for $3.18 a square foot. If we sell our property in West Selkirk, we will have cost plus ten, we'll have to sell it for $4.00 per square foot .

And in Winnipeg, the same type of zero lot lines, are selling for $3.25 market. 2810

-.... Monday, May 29, 1978 Now , Mr. Chairman, the success stories of the government being in land development are not good and 1 don 't think that Leaf Rapids Corporation , I sincerely hope that the development in Inkster is successful , but we have not had a good success story in land development . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 was just going to say to the Member for Transcona, I was wondering if he would yield to othe r members that have indicated they would like to ask questions , particularly the Member for Selkirk . MR. PARASIUK: 1 would like to ask just a couple more then I will. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right .

The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Well, Mr. Chairman , the Minister starte d off saying that he has looked at this very pragmaticall y, that the success of the pro vince with respect to land development hasn 't been very good. He points out a number of examples ; i n part mostly MHRC examples, and he points out one in West Selki rk, which is still not final. He then has taken some actions ; namely, dissolving Leaf Rapids Corporation , transferring his assets in activities to MHRC and he implies that the Corporation itself wasn't successful and he imp lies t hat the Corpora tion wasn 't profitable .

Yet if you look at the value of those assets , if you look at the value of the assets of tha t Corporat ion - the assets of that Corporation are worth in the order of seven or eight million dollars and they have expended someth ing in the order of $2 million. It is a very successful operation , it is worth a lot more than it was a few years ago.

MHRC , as a corporation involved in land-banking, is worth much much more than it was a few years ago and this isn't the same as the situation regarding social housing, where the Minister said, " Well, I am not sure whether in fact social housing has a market value ." I dispute that because I think the social housing, which has cost $200 million, could quite easily fetch something in the order of $400 million in the private market right now. But I am quite certain that the land that the Province has, which it acquired over a period of time, is worth a great deal more . . . MR. McKENZIE: Not in Ethelbert. MR.

PARASIUK: Not necessarily in Ethelbert, because I think that the Member for Roblin's perspective really can't go beyond that, really can't go beyond that because he has some difficulty going beyond that in his own mind . But I am talking about Winnipeg and I think it would be wise for the Member for Roblin to take a look at some of the land in Winnipeg; take a look at the south St. Boniface property . He should, you know, get off his . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: If you keep addressing your remarks this way I will have to bring you into order . MR. PARASIUK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, you know, I am having some difficulty trying to speak when I am having this person rambling in the wilderness, where he usually speaks from . He usually speaks from his feet, not standing up. MR. McKENZIE: You guys have never spent five cents out there in all the years you were in power . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , if the Member for Roblin wants to speak he should get off his seat and speak. He should sit on his mind and not let it wander. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the members of the Committee , would you please address your remarks through the Chair .

To the Member for Transcona, the Member for Roblin is on the list after his colleague , the Member for Selkirk , and I will ask him if he will try and refrain his interjections. The Member for Transcona please . MR. PARASIUK: I am trying to point out that the assets of the Manitoba Hous ing and Renewal Corporation are worth cons iderably more than they were before the Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corporation got into the whole area of land-bank ing and land development. The Minister is trying to give the impression to us and to the public that some how these assets are worth less.

Now I contend that they are worth a lot more than they were when they were purchased. I contend that the south St. Boniface property is worth a great deal more, if you include the development costs as well, is worth a great deal more than $1 .1 million , which is the development 2811

Monday, May 29, 1978 cost today, including the price of the land. I contend that it is worth a minimum of $6 million . That means that the land development venture has been highly successful. The point is whether in fact people are going to want to try and achieve that profit as a public land developer. Now if the province doesn't want to proceed with public land development , which 1 think it should, then it has a big question facing it. What is it going to do with that increased value of land?

The Minister has indicated that he has some qualms about seeing low-income people somehow get some type of windfall by moving into a home that might be worth $5,000 less than the market . Well, 1 wonder and I raised this before , if the Minister has any qualms about private land developers possibly purchasing the south St. Boniface property at a price of 1.1 or 1.5 million dollars which to the general public may seem like a fair price because it covers the costs that have gone into it, but is far far below the market value.

Those are questions that the Minis ter really still can 't answer , but I think are quite critical. Because if in fact that land is sold for anything less than $6 million , when it does have a development agreement in place , then there would be no other way to describe it but a giganti c rip-off, and the Minister , I think , has to come to grips with that particular prob lem, and has to come to grips with the dilemma that the land development program and the land-banking program has created a lot of wealth for the people of Manitoba through its land holdings. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I hope the honourable member doesn't honestly have any idea that we would sell south St. Boniface for $1.4 million. There is a market price for land and you find the market if you are going to put it out for tender and I assure you that it is not going to be given away. The reason for the land being valuable is not because of what Leaf Rapids did to the land, it is valuable because of inflation. It is valuable because land prices zoomed up, and as the Bellan Report says the price has zoomed up because of the government being in the land-banking business. He made that very clear . Mr.

Chairman, the south St. Boniface land that he speaks of if we were to develop it with the figures I just gave him , with another $3 million on top , at least $4 million would have been spent on it, and then there is the other two in Selkirk. So the assets that you are speaking of are $6 million, not $3 million that you were speaking of, if we put in services .

I can tell you this , that the reason for the assets of Leaf Rapids Corporation being so good at the present time is because the land was transferred from MHRC to Leaf Rapids Corporation at a book value or at what we paid for it, and that is why the assets of Leaf Rapids Corporation are as high as they are. The Leaf Rapids Corporation on the development plan that they have at the present time over an eight -year period, the total development budget for south St.

Boniface for 177.2 acres of developable land is $65,000 per acre over an eight to five year period, and that is very high costs, and that is why we are going to look at it. Now, regarding the whole policy of what will happen or the policy that will be decided by the government as to how the land bank will be treated is one that I have to say that I cannot answer at the present time . I can 't be clearer on it, other than it will either be in housing or if there is any profits such as the member was speaking of, it will be used to put people into houses and used to put people with low income into houses.

That is the plans that we are looking at at the present time . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PASIUK: This will be my final point for now and I will let the Member for Selkirk speak. The Minister implies that land which cost $600,000 a few years ago, now is worth something in the order of $6 million , only because of inflation . That is a ten-fold increase and that really doesn 't wash at all.

The reason why it is worth a lot more is that . raw land which was considered only a possibility with respect to development has been taken and a lot of planning, a lot of work has been done with the city , a lot of work has been done with local people, and since that land is now very close to development because of the effort of the developer in transferring raw bank land into developable land, which could have tenders called on it next week if the board decided to sign the development agreement that that land at that stage , because of the efforts of the developer now is worth something in the order of a minimum of $6 million .

The point is that this is just the case with respect to 200 acres . What about the other 3,500 acres owned by MHRC? I leave that open because 1 think 1 might get back to it; I'm going to ask some questions later on about the Inkster North development and about some of the joint holdings between the Prov ince of Manitoba 2812 •• . -

Monday, May 29, 1978 and the City of Winnipeg. What is the intention of the province with respect to this whole huge package of land which is worth a great amount more than the province paid for it and also -(Interjection)- Well, maybe the Member for Roblin would like to give it away but I certainly hope that the Province of Manitoba doesn 't give it away. 1 wouldn't trust the Member for Roblin with anything of a public asset nature but, at the same time , I do think that the present Minister wants to be very careful on how he disposes of that land.

So I'm raising these points with him so that he realizes that although some of the land that is banked may be some distance from the major services , that if the province does undertake some effort in providing some of the initial services, that that land will increase in value tremendously . In my constituency , BACM has front-ended some of the major services so they've converted about 1,000 acres in Devonshire Park into land that is worth a great deal of money right now. Prior to BACM putting in that front-end servicing, that land was worth a great deal less.

I'm just afraid that the province may in fact sell out some very valuable assets at a very low price if it is, in a sense, ideologically disposed to getting rid of those assets which it holds. I would hope that the Minister would undertake not to dispose of the assets. I would hope that the Minister undertakes ~ to keep them.

I would hope that the Minister would only undertake to dispose of the assets if a particular firm comes along on a management contract basis and decides that it can convert some of that raw land into serviced lots at an agreed-to price and the agreed-to price of the lots is made known to the public so that when the public buys that lot, it then knows what the land price is and then it can go to a contractor and get the contractor to quote a construction price for the house itself.

In this way the shadow game that goes on, I think right now, in vertically integrated companies with respect to the real cost of land and the imputed value of land in the final price ~ of the house could be tackled. Right now, people are spending far too much money on land and on houses and somehow if the Minister wants to achieve his objective of providing affordable housing, he is going to have to be a bit more aggressive as the Minister responsible for Housing in dealing with that problem . MR. McKENZIE: The government jacked up the price of land . You just said it, you just spelled it out loud and clear. MR.

JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member is quite right in that the value of the land has gone up. It's gone up in value as raw land. It has gone up in price because there is a development agreement that could be signed on it. That is true. The price we paid for Selkirk and there's only been two pieces of land that the Leaf Rapids Corporation has worked with. The Selkirk land, if we had sold it as raw land, we would have had a very good profit off it. We have developed it now and we'll have trouble getting our costs back. That is the fact of the matter.

You either put a development on it that it's a development that is saleable or you don't and this is something that has not been done in Selkirk and something that we're going to analyse as I've told you. The five to eight year project is going to bring the development of the St. Boniface land up to $65,000 an acre and it's in the figures here. So, yes, the land is worth a lot more money today if you want to sell it raw, the land that is in the government land bank .

It's worth more money if you get a development plan on it, a plan that is approved by the city but once you start putting your development and services in and find that you can't get your costs back because your development is not what the people want, or your costs are higher than market, then you've got a problem and that's the problem we have at Selkirk. It's very clear. A MEMBER: We're talking about St. Boniface . MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Selkirk is the reason why we are taking our time on St. Boniface and taking a look at the whole situation.

We just got it back as of Friday and we have the figures that are available to us because of what the Board of Directors asked for as far as the costs and the planned costs are concerned and we see very clearly that in Selkirk we have a problem and we don't want the same problem in South St. Boniface . If the honourable member would like an opinion from me, I don 't think that South St. Boniface is worth less than $20,000 an acre if it was just sitting there raw, by any stretch of the imagination. That's an opinion from me and I'm not what you would call a qualified appraiser.

But certainly I don't think that we can be faulted for not taking a close look at where we are going as being a developer. You are saying that the government is going to be in the development business and be a developer. It's a very risky business. There is a lot of money to be found up front and 1 can assure you that before we go into it any further, we have every intention of looking it over carefully , regarding 2813

Monday, May 29, 1978 the whole land bank. The member was not here last year when we were in these Estimates . 1 referred to a report that was done by Mr. Axworthy's Urban Study Group. There are not that many pieces of land within the government land bank that is going to be able to be used until 1985 or further on. So we are looking at pieces of land in Brandon, Charleswood, St. Boniface . There certainly is the involvement with the city in Fort Garry and the St.

Vital areas but we are not involved to that great an extent except the money passes through us and we have the right to look at 25 percent of the property for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporat ion to see that there are certain types of housing that go on it. But we are not moving ahead and making decisions on the land bank at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selkirk. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I would like to say a few words if I could in connection with the West Selkirk project as there has been considerable discussion pertaining to it.

In the process of making my comments, I would like to direct some questions to the Minister. 1 can say that 1 am disappointed that something cannot be done in order to develop and to make effective the Woodlands Development in Selkirk , and I do feel that in fact something could have been done. I'm concerned first, Mr. Chairman, about the fact that Ensign Homes Limited has a virtual belt of land which they own in the areas in which Selki rk most immediately can grow toward. In other words, one private developer has a large chunk of available land for development purposes, so that, Mr.

Chairman, I've looked upon the Leaf Rapids project as an alternative chunk of land to that which is basically owned by one large land developer. My concern therefore, which I would ask the Minister to deal with when he responds, is if it is the Minister's intention to sell Leaf Rapids Development Corporation land in Selkirk, is that land going to be sold in such a way as to ensure that it will provide competition to the builder that is presently , as I said earlier , in a virtual stranglehold situation in that that builder has large chunks of the existing land. So that's one question.

Maybe the Minister would like to deal with them individually or I could deal with them all, and then listen to the Minister 's response. MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. James R. Ferguson: The Minister of Housing. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, I'd like to deal with that particular question while we have it before us. Mr. Chairman, the member is concerned that somebody has a piece of land, or all the land, and he is going to be holding people up for. it, or as I gather and that's maybe a little more crude or maybe straightforward way of putting it. Mr.

Chairman , the cost of the lots - there are 199 lots - and we're selling them; quite frankly, we are selling them now, but here's what is happening. At 199 lots, the estimated cost per lot is $9,588; nearly $10,000 a lot, that's our cost . There is 2,640 square feet, which gives us a cost of $3.63 a square foot. Now, that means a 33 by 80 lot in Selkirk is approximately $10,000 . A 50 by 100 square foot lot at the market today is going to be about $16,200, and itS double's .

At the present time, the market for lots in Winnipeg, an average of 4,400 square feet - let 's take 44 by 100 - $14,300 per lot, and the average cost, the 4,400 per square foot is $3 .25 per square foot at market. And you know, the developer who developed that , he pays taxes; we don 't pay , the corporation doesn 't pay taxes . He does all of those things and he's selling at $3.25 per square foot.

In Charleswood in the paper tonight, you can buy land for $3.18 per square foot , and we are saying in Selkirk, for a lot that's 33 by 80 - 33 by 80 - in an area where your consultants back in October and in February advised not to go ahead with . Now, people from Winnipeg are not going to come out and live in Selkirk on the basis of because they want to get in wide open spaces and live on a 33 foot lot. The people that live in the rural areas want to live on larger lots, we've proved that in The Pas, we can't sell Bell Avenue.

So all of a sudden, if we were to sell the lots, at cost plus ten in Selkirk, Manitoba, we'd have to get $11 ,000 a lot, and, Mr. Chairman , I am told, that you can buy a 60 foot lot in Selkirk at the present time for around $14,000.00 . · Now, Mr. Chairman, I am told that the Selkirk properties are not anywhere near as expensive per square foot as the ones we have developed in West Selkirk . Now they're for sale. The honourable member today said he has some contractors that were interested . As a matter of fact we checked it out. There was a contractor interested and we have talked with him.

He could not get CMHC funding, CMHC will not fund on speculation to the contractors in West Selkirk, and he came to us and said , "Yes, I'll build if you will guarantee that you'll buy them back if I don't sell them, " and that's not really any speculation by contractor. 2814 .'- .. -.. ..

.. ... Monday, May 29, 1978 So, Mr. Chairman, that's the problem in Selkirk, and that's the problem that we're not going to run up against in south St. Boniface. If the Honourable Member for Transcona wants to bring these gentlemen down to my office next week, or tomorrow, and have discussions with our people then fine, bring them along , we're only too happy to see them. We want to move the property too . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, if I could just ask the Minister though, my concern is that this land is to be sold, that it will not be sold in such a way as to intensify what is already a growing control of available land by one or two companies and is the Minister indicating to me that the land will still be held by MHRC and sold by MHRC, or is it to be released to the private sector? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, we have been trying to release it to the private sector; we have been in discussion with contractors . The CMHC will not advance contractors speculative money to go into West Selkirk at the present time.

If you come to me and say that I am going, or go to CMHC and say 1 am going to buy that lot for myself and build on it, they will probably give you a loan , but they will not work with developer or contractors at the present time in West Selkirk . We have had several discussions with them on it. MR.

PAWLEY: I'd like to just say to the Minister that I have the impression that when we talk about the 35 foot lot, 1 should mention that the local municipal authority approved the lot size, 35 by 80, for very good reason , and that is that with such a level of density per acre, then the municipal authority was entitled to $1 ,000 per unit towards assistance insofar as the municipal authorities infrastructure costs were concerned .

So there certainly was local municipal support for this project. 1 am wondering when we talk about the costs, and the member refers to $48,000 as being the land cost, I think the fact is that the land in question mainly was purchased from the. . . MR. JOHNSTON: Forty-eight thousand dollars per acre. MR.

PAWLEY: Forty-eight thousand, that the land was purchased originally raw form from the Crown itself, and thus that would be a concern which I would ask the Minister whether or not in the original purchase of the land from the Crown , the land price might have been in excess of that which should reasonably been attached to it. The land was not purchased from the private sector originally, the raw land, but from the Crown itself .

The third aspect I'd like to mention to the Minister is, it seems to me when we talk about the size of the lot that we ignore the man-made lakes, the park area, which is additional green space , and I have reviewed the plans for the Woodlands development and I've been quite impressed by the plans because they involve so much green space.

If one wishes to assume a negative position toward the development one speaks only in terms of 35 foot lots - the negative, but the fact is that there is a great deal of man-made lake, there 's a great deal of green park area, wooded areas, that I do believe is rather unique for a development plan . I know of no other part of Selkirk , for instance, that has the man-made lakes, the parkland area, as this development would have and I do think that's a real selling feature. But there's been minimal , Mr. Minister, minimal effort , I think, to publicize that.

I can recall one brochure being distributed at the time of the Selkirk Fair, I believe it was, last year out lining the development plan , what it contained , but I have seen no effort since to publicize, and the project is bound , I think, to fail if there is no effort made to emphasize the attractive features of the project. I do believe that had there been an active sales program, if there had been some effort to publicize the good features of the project that there would be greater interest than possibly the Minister is finding in the project , but there 's been no publicity.

I don 't believe there 's been any effort to my knowledge to publicize the project . People in Selkirk are not aware.

I sent to the Minister a letter , I believe it was two or three weeks ago, from a constituent who was interested in information toward his possible purchase of a lot in the development which he hoped to build a home on. 1 don 't know whether the - certa inly that is an example of an individual who approached me - had no idea of what the development was like, so that I say to the Minister, there's been no effort to ensure that the development would be a success, no mention of the fact that the lot size could be 50 feet width rather than necessarily 35 feet width in all instances.

So I say to the Minister that I do believe that there has been insufficient effort to ensure the success of this project. I would also like to say to the Minister, and his words the other day in the House confirmed 2815

Monday, May 29, 1978 this, 176 families trying to find accommodation in Selkirk, only 52 units I believe the Minister said , available, indicates the pressure especially on the part of lower income groups in the area, and I don 't know why MHRC doesn't lead in the forefront here and at least develop 20 percent or 15 percent of these lots for public housing . There's been no lead that I'm aware of.

And also I would like to point out to the Minister that a penitentiary very close to that area is slated to be constructed in 1980 in a Federal Government announcement , and this land will be very much in demand at that time, so I do believe that this project has a great deal going for it but I feel that there have been certain deficiencies in promoting it, selling it, and realizing some of the original objectives that this land was to be used for .

I would hope that the Minister , and I say this to him sincerely, because of the housing pressures, would have a very thorough review of the project in order to attempt to rescue it from simply ending up in the hands of those, as I indicated earlier, who do have ownership of a belt of land around the community, and I fear that the costs will escalate out of all proportion if this belt of ownership of land around Selkirk is permitted to widen further , and there's very little choice insofar as the acquisition of building lots in the area. I'd appreciate the Minister's comments. MR.

JOHNSTON: Well, to answer his first question the land cost $2,580 per acre. Consulting and administration and servicing costs exceed $48,000 per acre , and that is high. Nobody wants to sell those pieces of property more than we do but at the present time, working with the contractors who have been interested, we have not been successful. I say if you have some bring them down. Mr. Chairman, you forwarded to me a person who was interested in one piece of property. Well, we'd be very interested to talk to him now .

It's back at MHRC and, as I said , if we could get our cost at the present time we'll be higher than the market is in the area. Does the member really think that we should sell off these lots at a loss? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I would like to mention to the Minister that I'm not sure what lots are selling for in Selkirk quite frankly, but I do know that in the area surrounding the Town of Selkirk that unserviced lots, an acre and a half lots out in the country , and there 's subdivisions being approved and I do believe that that's eventually going to be a problem , are selling from $20,000 to $22,000 each .

MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, that is why people want to move to the rural areas so they can have an acre and a half and they 're quite willing to pay for it. We have not been successful in detracting contractors to the 33 x 80 lot in Selkirk, and as far as advertising is concerned I assure you we'll make it known they're for sale. MR. PAWLEY: Has there been any effort to indicate to prospective buyers that those lots can be sold 50 x 100 feet. The Minister keeps referring to 33 foot lots and it doesn't require very much adjustment to 50 foot lots . MR.

JOHNSTON: First of all the design of the project is they cannot be increased in depth; in width they can. If you go to 50 feet by 80 feet you are going to end up with the lot , if we go at cost plus 10, costing $16,000, $4.00 a square foot . Now I assure you, when you can buy a 50 x 100 foot lot for around $16,200 or $22,000 for an acre and a half as the honourable member says, it becomes a little bit of a problem .

And when you get to $16,000 on a 50 x 80 foot piece of property, and your AHOP is at $39,500 I assure you you're going to have some problems at $33.00 a square foot putting a house on it that may qualify . As I said earlier today if you went to 66 x 80 you'd get the lots up to around $18,000 or $19,000 and then you've got to put a house on it and then how will you qualify for AHOP? MR.

PAWLEY: Well, could I ask the Minister then if in fact this project is not going to successfully realize its objective which was to deal with what is a large market of families that require low income housing, what plans are in the works insofar as dealing with - well, with the problem that he mentioned the other day in the House of 176 families that . were awaiting housing accommodation only in the low-rental area alone, the low income area because I believe this information came from the Selkirk housing authority. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I said earlier if one of those individuals want to come forward and purchase a lot they can, and they can probably get financing from CMHC. If you want to have individuals come and purchase them we will advertise that they're available , but I don't know, you know, the turnover in Selkirk is not that great. You're talking 176 people looking for low cost accommodation or subsidized accommodation. Now if he wants us to subsidize those people by selling these lots at less than cost - is that what you're saying? 2816

Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. PAWLEY: Well, all that I can say to the Minister is that I understood that the philosophy of his Party has been better to assist and subsidize families in the purchase of their own homes rather than through rental accommodation , so that I had thought that this would be an area that the Minister would want to explore and which was very convenient to him insofar as this very development is concerned rather than construction of numerous public housing units.

Is the Minister indicating then that the only way that this need then will be realized in Selkirk will be in the direction of further large scale public housing development? MR. JOHNSTON: No. No, the Member has brought up something that will have to be considered . If those lots are not going to sell the way they are at the present time we have to consider doing something . As 1 said last week on Bell Avenue in The Pas we have set up a loss of nearly $700,000 and we still haven 't sold one. MR. PAWLEY: Can the Minister advise what sales efforts are undertaken .

Is there any brochure or pamphlet or are there private agents that are involved at all in the sale of these lots in -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, I'm having trouble making myself heard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selkirk has the floor . MR. PAWLEY: Could the Minister detail for me the promotional effort that is being undertaken to dispose of this property? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, the Leaf Rapids Corporation had a person on salary whose position it was to do nothing except market the property, and he hasn 't been able to market it. MR. PAWLEY: I'm wondering what steps were taken by the person in question .

Although I live locally I must say to the Minister I've seen little effort to promote it. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I said we will analyze the steps that have been taken by Leaf Rapids Corporation. We will discuss and we will advertise. I'm sure that the member has to realize that it's only common sense. Maybe we'll have to use a local real estate man . I can't say whether there has been or not, but we will find out. I can say to the member - I don 't know whether he was here when I mentioned it before earlier today - we have not been able to attract any contractors.

Now individual people we'll have to advertise . We'll have to make it known they 're available at these prices , but when I tell you that the cost plus 10 percent is higher than the market for zero lot line lots in Winnipeg or in other areas of the city , or in some areas of the city, we have a problem. You mention the $1,000 , the $1,000 incentive grant is only paid by the Federal Government if a house is started . It looks as if they 're not going to be able to take advantage of that. MR.

PAWLEY: I, of course , don 't have the information the Minister has as to how the cost figure is realized, but I'm wondering in the apportioning of cost whether the cost is apportioned over a larger area than that which we are immediately dealing with because certainly the services that are involved here I suspect would be of such a nature that would extend over a much larger area than the 25 to 30 acres immediately south of the mental hospital. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, there's $423,000 that were appropriated against Phase II, which was attributable to the pond that the member is speaking of, and Phase II is a long way off . The amount of money expended to date is $1,168 ,000 with an estimate of $740,000 to complete it. Mr. Chairman, the estimates of Leaf Rapids Corporation - these are of April 15th - were in the neighbourhood I believe , $2,068,000 in the beginning, and the layout of the lots, obviously they knew then what the costs were going to be and it was laid out in this fashion. MR.

PAWLEY: So the Minister can assure me that the costs claimed as against this property have all been attributed to this property, and that other costs not related to this property have been directly or indirectly added into the cost figures. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am assured that the costs that were presented to us by the Leaf Rapids Corporation staff, are the actual costs of the Leaf Rapids Development in West Selkirk only, charged against that. I'd be quite willing to have the member come and check with the staff on this anytime he'd like to. 2817

Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. PAWLEY: I wonder if I could ask the Minister what plans , if any, are underway in connection with the proposals that have been made to him or to MHRC in connection with the senior citizen " housing projects for Petersfield and Lockport? MR. JOHNSTON: Petersfield is being examined at the present time . I had a letter from the member and we have taken it into consideration, and we are examining it at the present time.

It would look very much like Petersfield would be a natural for the non profit housing program that is coming forward from the Federal Government, which is a very attractive proposal and we in the province, when we finally get our agreement settled with the Federal Government on that particular proposal , we'll be suggesting that to them. They can move ahead almost as fast as they want and 1 had a meeting with the gentleman from Petersfield who informed me that if that proposal was available to them, they could probably go ahead right off the bat.

The next question comes up as to whether that non profit housing , would be able to support people in them that are on the minimum income? Yes, the province will definitely take a look at people living in those non profits by subsidizing some of the rents in those projects . MR. PAWLEY: In Lockport , is there any . .. MR. JOHNSTON: Lockport again, is also the same thing , it's very hard to justify too many units in Lockport and the problem in Lockport is the people that are coming forward with their names have assets that put them in the position of not qualifying .

Here again, the non profit set up is probably the best way to go. MR. PAWLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin is the next speaker, Elmwood, Transcona, and then Lac du Bonnet. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman , do I hear my ears filling me in correctly that government is in the land development business, fixing prices for land; buying land , and hoping that the price will go up and ta-da, ta-da. Would the Minister fill me in and for the the benefit, especially the new members, what's the policy of you as a Minister and MHRC?

Are you buying land, speculating on land, and I'm thinking in this subject of the matter that just came up in the House of Commons the other day where members were being accused of buying on the floating dollar. MR. JOHNSTON: No, no, no, no, no. MR. McKENZIE: Well, maybe it was phony, but I wonde r would the Minister clear up where this government - what's your policy on land development, buying land, fixing prices of land in the city areas, in the urban areas, in the rural areas . That will be my first question . MR.

JOHNSTON: Well, the policy of the present government on the purchases of land as far as MHRC is concerned , and that's where the land has been purchased - the corporation that the government land has been purchased through for housing - is that we are not purchasing any land at the present time unless it will enhance the piece of property we presently have. And as far as fixing the prices, no, we don 't fix the price s. The land that the government has purchased has increased in price because of inflation, and in some cases because of work that has been done on it. MR.

McKENZIE: May 1 ask the Minister whether the south St. Boniface Development - how you can anticipate or deal with that kind of a profit that you were talking about earlier from the initial price of that land, and the market value that was suggested by members of the Committee earlier - was that capital gain or .. . MR. JOHNSTON: Well, if we were to sell the land and ·make the type of profit that has been mentioned, the profit would be used for housing in the Province of Manitoba, and preferably be used for housing or helping low income families to get into their own homes . MR. McKENZIE: Now, Mr.

Chairman , would the Minister explain to me how the former Minister arrived in my constituency during the last election with a shovel, and one day he stops into the Town of Roblin and turns a shovel - (Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, would you listen to the Member for Roblin please ? 2818

Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. McKENZIE: . . . and says he is going to build X numbers of housing units and unfortunately he never notified the MLA that was the city member from that area, because I would have liked to have been there and polish his shovel , but unfortunately during the heat of election campaign, the Minister never checked with the town to try and ascertain if that would cause any problems.

And fortunately the town now has seen fit to have to set up a new lagoon, they had to go and buy X numbers of dollars of land which they are in the throes of doing, and I can show you the project likely is still on the rails because we're not going to turn back any of the projects from the former government, Mr. Chairman. But here is the ad in this week's issue of the Roblin paper on this project that 's not off the ground yet , to show you what initiative and what directive we're getting .

They're now asking people, 55 years of age and over - "You are now eligible to apply for accommodation in the new senior citizens home being planned." Now, Mr. Minister, has the senior citizens age been lowered to 55? The senior citizens housing, Mr. Evans set up in Roblin - (Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: To the members of the Committee, you all know ... The Member for Roblin, please . MR. McKENZIE: Now , would the Minister advise me and the .. . I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for one moment please.

For the last twelve years or so, all members who have ever witnessed the Member for Roblin know that he has never, ever interrupted anyone, so would you please show the courtesy to him that he has shown to you members for the last number of years? The Member for Roblin, would you continue on please . MR. McKENZIE: I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I'll not bring Ethelbert into the debate at all tonight; I'll keep that for another day . Mr.

Chairman, I'm wondering , even at this late date, they are still looking for people 55 years of age and over and the project hasn't been built yet in Roblin because the lagoon hasn't been even planned, if it would not have been better for the government of that day to put those dollars into personal care home beds in Roblin, where I think there is a waiting list of 34? -(Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for Roblin, would you please address your remarks to the Chair? MR. HANUSCHAK: Oh, it's this government that did that. MR. JOHNSTON: To answer the Member for Roblin 's question about the age, Mr.

Saul Miller, the Member for Seven Oaks, when he was the Minister of MHRC, lowered the age to 55 providing there was a need on the basis of disability or something of that nature . Otherwise , the age of 65 is the qualification. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, to answer the Member for Roblin's question, on the 10th of October, 1976, there was a submission from the Corporation regarding the suggested housing units to be built in 1977.

They were forwarded to the Minister; the Minister returned it to them on the 21st of December, 1976, suggesting that the projects that were on the list, certain projects on the list should go ahead, and in that list he added Roblin, Gimli , Birtle , Shoal Lake, Rossburn, Swan River, Anoia , increased Portage Ia Prairie, Emerson , Alonsa , McCreary , Winnipeg Beach, and Teulon . On March 15, 1977, there was a document sent to the construction department of the Corporation, giving him a list of what could be gone ahead of immediately, and the following non-Winnipeg projects may not proceed until further notice .

Of that list there is 25, and of the 25 there is 7 that were on the original list recommended by the Corporation . Roblin was added on the basis of 42 units and they had 48 eligible applications and the policy of the Corporation is to build half; if you have 48 applications , they build half, and that's always been the policy . The contract for Roblin was for 42, the new board took a look at it and felt that they could not justify 42; it's being redesigned or re-looked at for 24 units , and we will be in touch with the Town of Roblin whether they want to go non-profit or whether they want us to build it.

That's where Roblin stands at the present time. MR. McKENZIE: Well , Mr. Chairman , I'd like to see the tax dollars of the citizens expended where there is the greatest advantage . I wonder because of the fact that the lagoon still hasn't been built, it still has to go before the Clean Environment Commission before that structure can ever come 2819

Monday, May 29, 1978 off the ground, and that may take another year or more because there is some controversy in the wind, is that the lagoon will be spilled into the Shell River which is one of the last freshwater rivers which we have in the province. Would it be possible for MHRC or you as the Minister to change the priorities of those dollars and put them into personal care home beds where the list is a rather lengthy one and I don 't think it's that lengthy for this type of housing?

Would it be possible to transfer those dollars where the need is great, and this government of course said that they knew all the things and they were representing the high priorities of people of need? I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, they sure didn't do it in Roblin because we need lots of personal care home beds . I think this project could wait for another year and then come on-stream. If those dollars could be expended in personal care home beds, I'm sure every member of the committee would be patting you on the back , Mr. Minister, if that could be done . But I know it is very difficult , Mr.

Minister , to undo what that mumbling jumbling crowd did across the table from us because I wish I could have taken Mr. Evans' shovel for - no, I'll go with his second shovel in the campaign . . . May I, Mr. Chairman , he went down the road to Grandvi ew and got his shovel out again and he knocked anothe r sod over and flipped one in Grandview and I have the ad - this one's finished . They were more political in Grandview and they had more ins there . This one is finished and here is the ad and it's been finished now for some time and this alarms me. They are advertising today in Grandv iew.

Here is the May 24th issue of the Grandview Exponent , Mr. Chairman. " The Grandview Housing Authority ," Mr. Chairman , " invites applications for four-bedroom homes , three-bedroom homes, bachelor suites , double suites , .. . " in that housing unit that has just been finished . Again, may I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, and to the Minister , would it be possible to turn those dollars around and hopefully turn that into a personal care home unit for the people?

I have likely 22 or 23 people who are wait ing for personal care home beds in Grandview and unfortunately they don 't have to advertise in Grandview for this type of housing but they are hopefully hoping that you, Mr.

Minister , and the government will turn the policy around from this former government 180 degrees; change our priorities and maybe move personal care home beds, maybe only for one year and I don't quarrel with the other government at all, they did a lot of good works and all government do good works, but would it be possible for us to expend more of these dollars in personal care home beds than we are doing . Now, I can't speak for the city, only for the rural areas. •, -(Interjection)- Let the Minister ask.

I know the former Attorney-General thinks he is government and he still likes to answer my questions but unfortunately that is not it. We have a new Minister and I wonder if the Minister could answer that questio n. MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen of the Committee, would you let the Minister answer the Honourab le Member from Roblin 's questions. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I will start at the last one. In Ethelbert -1 am not aware of the ad that he is showing - we have eleven family units and Hs -(Interjection)- Pardon me, Grandview , not Ethelbert.

We have 11 family units and we have 18 elderly which have just been finished . That was started back last September ... MR. McKENZIE: During the election campaign . MR. JOHNSTON: . .. and it has just been completed . As far as transferring the money to the Minister of Health for nursing homes, I'm afraid that I am just not in the position to answer that. 1 think the Minister of Health and myself have to get togethe r regarding some policies to have, well, as the Member for Transcona calls it, "enriched ," but at least some co-ordination between senior citizens and nursing homes, in that respect.

But as far as transferring money from the Corporation to the Health's budget , I'm afraid the Minister of Finance is just not going to allow that. The money we have that we are looking at for Roblin is budgeted for 24 units and I don 't think we can change that. Is the member making a request that we sit down again with the Mayor of Roblin? MR. McKENZIE: No, I don't know how you are going to do it.

May I just ask the Minister - and give me this assurance - that he as a Minister of the Crown will never go into any MLA 's constituency , flip a sod with a shovel , or set up any works of any kind without the sitting member having knowledge of it? Is that a fair question , Mr. Chairman? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman , I have informed the staff of MHRC, and I assure you that they won't - I'm not saying something that was just suggested to me - I have told them that if they ever go into any member's constituency to discuss housing or anything, without their knowledge , 2820

- .. Monday, May 29, 1978 I would be very disappointed . MR. McKENZIE: Now we are going to get good government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member tor Elmwood , Transcona and then Lac du Bonnet. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, that was an interesting little episode we just witnessed where we see a p review of the P.C. caucus where the backbench isn't afraid to stand up and give the Cabinet hell. I think that is healthy . . . MR. McKENZIE: It will be that way as long as I am around . MR.

DOERN: ... particularly where the Member for Roblin is attacking his own administration tor talking about lowering the age of retirement to 55. I agree that's a bit too much. Mr. Chairman , I wanted to ask the Minister about one specific item that concerns me and that is the proposed senior citizens ' development in Elmwood . I am sure the Minister is familiar with this . Our government planned a 68-suite elderly persons ' housing projec t in Elmwood at Talbot and Stadacona .

This was in line with an attempt to decentralize such housing throughout the city and throughout the provinc e and there was considerable interest in this pro ject. I might tell the Minister tha t when it was announced , which would have been in March of 1977, there were a lot of senior citizens who spoke to me about it and were very delighted that this project would go forward and were anxious to sign up for it. So I had telephone requests ; I had personal requests and people were keenly interested in what was going to happen .

I would simply ask the Minister , to begin with , if he could tell me what the status of that project is? MR. JOHNSTON: The status of the project in Elmwood, I believe it was to be an office building . It was to be part of an office building , a senior citizens ' home with an office building. A MEMBER: Another office, you've got to be kidding, an office in Elmwood? MR. HANUSCHAK: You were complain ing about too many edifices in your rid ing so we're putting some up in Elmwood . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman , in Elmwood , as of a survey that we have just taken, the total responses to the review to May 24th , responses received May 25, and 26, in the East Kildonan area, which I guess took in the Elmwood area, we have a total of 42 applications. Seventeen of those applications wish to stay in that area; 27 of the applications wanted it as their second choice. Eight of the applications that are interested in Elmwood want to go to area two which is central Winnipeg. Two of them want to go to three , which is North End. One of them wants to go to Brooklands. One of them wants to go to St. Vital.

Three of them want to go to St. Boniface. Three of them want to go to Transcona. Five of them want to go to North Kildonan. One prefers to live in West Kildonan and one prefers to go to the rural area. There are actually 17 people in this survey who have a desire to stay in that particular area. MR. DOERN: Is the Minister telling me that he makes his decisions strictly on the basis of demand , so if anot her 10 or 20 people make application, he will proceed to construct? MR. JOHNSTON: If another 10 or 20 people make application, Mr.

Chairman, we would take a look at it from the point of view of half , which has always been the policy and we would look at it from the point of view of whether the land that is available is economical. We had one presented to us in St. Adolphe and when we arrived in government, they were going to go ahead and they were going to pay $42,000 for a piece of land. Now, those are all things that have to be taken into cons ideration . The other problem that we have with the senior citizens , many of the people that we have surveyed want to live in one place and no place else.

As far as building a senior citizens ' home with an office building, it will not be done by this government. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I am familiar with the attitude of the government with regard to the office component , but I am talking only of the senior citizens ' component and that is the only thing that the Minister is responsible for. The site was acquired after a considerable search in the area, 2821

Monday, May 29, 1978 because there are not too many sites of sufficient size to construct any particular project. There are a lot of small 50 by 75 by 100 foot wide lots but when it come s to something that is an acre or so, then there isn't very much available . I am saying, let's take the project right now, the land is there , a contractor was, I believe, given a green light on the first phase of construction . 1 ask the Minister what the status of the architectural design is and what the status is in relation to the contractor, which was Poole Construction? What is happening there?

Have they both been told that the project is dead? Has it been put on ice? Is the Minister reviewing it? MR. McKENZIE: We'll send Frank out during the next election campaign , Russ, with a shovel. MR. DOERN: Who is Frank? MR. McKENZIE: The Minister . MR. DOERN: That Frank , okay . MR. McKENZIE: That's the way you guys did it. . . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, that particular project was under Public Works . It then left us in the position of having to take a look at the senior citizens' accommodation for that area and we have been doing a survey , as I have just mentioned to you. We started about three weeks ago.

We sent a lette r to 1,573 people . After examining all of the responses and following up on the applications on file, the Corporation has 713 applications on file for senior citizens' homes . This is research that had not been done before . We also have researched with the statistics that 1 just gave you as to where the senior citizens' homes should be placed . The Member for Lac du Bonnet left the room the other night. He was saying because we have 44 empty units on Strauss Drive in St. James, it wasn't bad because of the number of units we have.

It's bad in this respect, that we built a $3 million building in St. James on Strauss Drive that we can 't fill. Now maybe half of that should have been spent elsewhere . MR. McKENZIE: ... all those empty ones in The Pas. MR. JOHNSTON: So those are the types of statistics we have been working on and the staff has been working closely with the Greater Winnipeg Housing Authority. I might say the application form that the Member for Transcona had I believe was dated March 15th. It' s a form that when somebody makes application, before they're even accepted , when they send the letter back we send this out with them.

We list the names of the projects. We have on top all occupied waiting list and the changeover that we had in the last three months is 103 units became available if I'm not mistaken from people passing on or moving or somethi ng of that nature as far as the units are concerned. We have more units that will be coming on stre am. I believe t hat Sargent and Kennedy will be coming on stream which will take up another 90 people. And we're well aware of the fact that most of the people wanting to live in public housing are making appl ication and wanting to live in the downtown area.

Just to give you those figures, in the area two, which is cent ral Winnipeg, out of 261 applications 151 of them want t o stay in t he same a rea and 226 the second choice is to be downtown . In the north end 252 applications, 124 want to remain in the area, 190 second choice. And the Fort Rouge area is another one - and the north end and Kildonans, or the West Kildonans are fairly heavy. Mr. Chairman, we are planning our senior citizen constru ctions around two things : (

a) getting our agreement settled with the Federal Governmen t on ou r cost sharing . I said to you on ·Friday we had nothing official from CMHC as to what our

Section 43 funding would be. We have an unofficial figure at the present time of $14 million and then they want us to go on the new program , and the new program will give us some problems but we'll overcome it. MR. DOERN: I'm still not clear on how the Minister obtains his info rmation. He indicated that 1,573 letters were sent out. I mean who gets these letters? Is this all of Winnipeg? Where do you get the lists? Where do you get the names? And so on. MR. JOHNSTON: Applicants off the waiting list were contacted. MR. DOERN: In othe r words you're saying that in the last X n umbe r of months you had 1,573 applicants. Is that it? 2822 ....

Monday, May 29, 1978 "* MR. JOHNSTON: No, I said we had 1,573 about a month ago and after going over all the lists thoroughly we are down to 700 and - there was 400 people that weren't even available for comment out of the 1,500 - 713. MR. DOERN: You don 't elicit or solicit these inquiries . These are things that come in through the mail? MR. JOHNSTON: That is correct.

Pardon me, we sent a letter - we contacted the list and sent a letter to those people who were still available asking the questions that I read out here the other day and these are the results we have back , and the list for senior citizens in Winnipeg at the present time is 713 applications. MR. DO ERN: So in the last number of months or whatever you had 1,573 people gave their names maybe over the telephone or in writing saying they were interested and after a first scrutiny of these, or shakedown it came down to 713 people who were still interested in acquiring senior citizens' housing. Is that right? MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, what I'm saying is the accumulated list was over 1,500 people and had never been changed . They just kept growing and nobody ever checked after a couple of years as to whether they were still interested, whether they'd moved , or whether they'd passed on. But we did . MR. DOERN: Okay, fine, so you checked now and you determined that there are 713 people who are interested and willing and want to go into such projects. Right? MR. JOHNSTON: Correct . MR. DOERN: Do you have 713 spaces? MR. JOHNSTON: No. MR. DOERN: No. How many of the 713 do you intend to build for? MR.

JOHNSTON: If we were to start off and build 713 immediately we would start off by looking at half which has been the policy of the corporation . I would say that there is a turnover of 150 a month. We have 93 new units coming on stream and we have some that are empty at the present time in certain areas. MR. DOERN: Okay, my point is this though, what figure again did you give for Elmwood and East Kildonan as still being interested? MR. JOHNSTON: We had 42 applicants from the East Kildonan area, the area called area 12 of which 17 requested to stay in that area. MR.

DOERN: Okay, so is this going to be the one and only technique upon which the Minister is going to make decisions. In other words he's going to follow this particular pattern and if he sees a particular demand he's going to respond to it.

I'm going to say to the Minister, quite frankly if that is the basis of his decision making then I'm going to go out and tell people in my area to pour letters into him so that we can get 50 or 100 or 150 people demanding senior citizens' housing in the area and then I assume that the Minister will then guarantee me that he will proceed to build the unit, if that is the basis of his decision making . Or are there other factors? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I will not guarantee anything.

If the member wants to go out and get a bunch of people to mail in their names for senior citizens' housing if they qualify - their assets, etc. - if they qualify, -(Interjection)- and then we will examine the applications. We will also have discussions with the Winnipeg Housing Authority, the management of it, as to whether he believes that we should be moving in that area and work on his experience as well. Previously senior citizens housing was built on the basis of applications on file, land available, and spend the money if you had it. MR.

DOERN: Well, given that policy when you came into office were there many vacancies, or were the units essentially filled and a backlog? 2823

Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. JOHNSTON: When we came into office we had the regular changeovers. We had the new ones coming on stream - Assiniboia, as I mentioned, Kennedy , Strauss Drive coming on stream , Pembina's coming on stream, given all of those things we decided to make a survey of the applications on file to see if they qualified or even if they were still alive. MR. DOERN: But I'm saying in effect do you know what the vacancy rate was in these EPH units across the city? MR. JOHNSTON: The vacancy rate across the city when we came into office?

It would be a vacancy rate at the end of December which would be - I said 150 earl ier - I believe I was wrong. There 's a turnover of 50 per month . Am I correct on that? 50 per month turnov er? And the vacancy rate at the end of December? My staff can probably give you the figures on that. I don 't know whether they have them here but the - it' s worked out on a three months basis of units - the number of units that are empty. In other words we might have had 350 units that were not rented for a one month period of time because of notices , etc . MR.

DOERN: But essentially , given the backlog and the waiting list you could fill those fairly quickly? MR. JOHNSTON: We coul d fill some of them fairl y quickly. MR. DOERN: Well, my point is this, Mr. Chairman , I asked the Minister if this project were proceeded with in Elmwood as planned by the previous admin istration you would have had 68 units coming up in the summer or the fall and I assume that those units would have been filled by local people, by people . . . MR. JOHNSTON: According to the figures we have now they would n't have been. MR. DOERN: They wouldn't have been . According to present figures. MR.

JOHNSTON: Yes. MR. DOERN: But yet you don 't have - you're not looking at senior cit izens' housing in various parts of the city where you have half the units empty or someth ing. You're not faced with that kind of a problem. MR. JOHNSTON: I'm faced with 61 vacant bache lor suites on Moray and Strauss . MR. DOERN: And you feel - 40 or 60? MR. JOHNSTON: 40, pardon me. MR. DOERN: And you're concerned that that won 't be filled? I mean do you think that they 're going to ... MR. JOHNSTON: When this was written from Mr. Char les to Mr.

Bill Nickaraz it says, " Bill, I am passing on the most recent up to date I have with regard to the feeling of the units under management of Oldfield Kirby and Gardner ", - that's Moray and Strauss - " To date 36 bachelor suites and all eight one-bedroom suites in senior citizen s' buildings have been filled. This leaves 61." I'd just like to ask my staff why that is now 40. I believe I remembered it ... " This leaves 61 vacant bache lor suites. A total of 22 bachelo r applications have been forwarded to them . However , 22 bachelor 's applications have been forwa rded to them .

However, as of this date we have no add itional applications on hand to forward . This problem may carry on for some time." MR. DOERN: Okay . So, anyway , I'm making a slightly different point to the Minister . I'm saying that in the case of Elmwood and East Kildonan where I believe there is a demand and a need for public hous ing that if the units were built , if the project was proceeded with I believe it would be filled. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chai rman , i n the elderly persons .. . Edmonton and Sarg ent 64 units will be coming on, Kennedy Street , 95, Moray and Strauss , 41 - what about Pembi na?

It's not on here? Family, pardon me. The total is 200, plus the turnover of 100 in a two months ' period and 2824 ..

Monday, May 29, 1978 there'll be in the next two months an availability of 300 units . Now we're down to 300. MR. DOERN: Okay, but I'm saying to the Minister that the Minister's logic goes as follows: he is saying to me that where tere 's a demand he's going to uuild. I'm saying sort of the opposite .

I'm saying that if the previous government had built 68 units in Elmwood I believe that it would have also generated a demand in the area , that the people would have seen it and that people would have applied, but given the way the Minister is going to approach the problem then I'm saying that I'm going to go out and talk to my people and tell Mr. Fox to do the same and if we come back with 50 or 100 applications that qualify and are eligible then I assume that the Minister is going to take a look at that and possibly proceed. Am I right? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member has said "demand".

That's the way it was done before . There was a demand on the basis of application . We will build on the need of people who qualify . MR. McKENZIE: Hear hear . Not like Grandview or Roblin . Hear hear . MR. DOERN: So then I say - I just ask this question then . That site - there is a piece of property there - I'm saying is the Minister going to hold that property. Is that his present plan to hold that property or has he already given orders to dispose of it? MR. JOHNSTON: The property is owned by Public Works. MR. DOERN: Right. And to the best of your knowledge it is being held by Public Works, is it? MR.

JOHNSTON: To the best of my knowledge. MR. DOERN: As opposed to being disposed of? MR. JOHNSTON: I can't answer that. MR. DOERN: Can't answer it. Then the other thing I would simply ask the Minister and it's again maybe under his colleague is that the architect's plans - the architects were told to design a building with an office component and a senior citizens' housing component and there was also a contractor there . Does the Minister know, can he tell us what has happened to the architect and to the contractor? Have they been told to cease and desist? Has there been a settlement made with them?

Has there been an understanding reached as to what they do? uMR. JOHNSTON : Well, 1 h.ave to refer you to the Minister of Public Works again . The plans, the contract and everything on that particular building was under the Minister of Public Works and I have no idea of where it stands, . but I can ask him if you'd like me to. MR. DOERN: Okay. I would ask the Minister if he would discuss it with the Minister of Public Works and inform me.

The final thing I would like to ask and maybe you already gave this earlier, is in our end of town, namely in Elmwood and East Kildonan in particular, or maybe even North Kildonan and ,. Transcona - but particularly in Elmwood and East Kildonan - are there any plans now to construct any senior citizens housing, or does the government have any plans in that whole area including Transcona and North Kildonan? MR. JOHNSTON: We have no plans at the present time in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman .

The other day the Minister indicated that it was not his intention to proceed with the development in Tyndall and suggested that the Tyndall community could very well consider going into a non-profit type of arrangement under the new Federal proposals or policies.

In listening to the Minister discuss other projects, I notice that he is not making the same suggestion with respect to demand for senior citizen facilities in Winnipeg, that they too should consider going the non-profit route, and I would like to know from the Minister just how he singles out Tyndall as the community that should follow that procedure and that course of action as opposed to the rest of Manitoba . 2825

Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman , we have had all kinds of organizat ions in Winnipeg coming before us, asking if they can become involved in the non-pro fit type of housing in Winnipeg for senior citizens , and just as soon as we have the agreement signed with the Federal Government , we will be moving in that respect. We have already written letters to many of them, suggesting that the new program would be such that they should consider in the City of Winnipeg. Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Elmwood is gone, but Elmwood is served by elderl y persons; public housing units owned by the Legion 72, and the Cosmopolitan Club 81 , that's 153 units at the present time.

To further answer the quest ion from the Member for Lac du Bonnet, I can assure him that there are people in the City of Winnipeg just waiting to move on the non-prof it thing, in fact it's something we have to look at very closely with the Federal Government, and we have to become involved with them in this respect; that if we're not involved, we won't know just where they're going to go and we have to be involved so we will know where they 're going to go because we feel we have better stat istics than the Federal Government as to the need in the C ity of Winnipeg. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I can appreciate new appli cations following a new policy enunciated by the Government of Canada and the Government of Manitoba, but here you have a situation where a decision had been made , plans were underway to proceed, and now the Ministe r advises the Comm ittee that they are not proceeding through the existing program, but that we should suggest to that community that they fall into the sort of new untried system of non-profit organization for the purpose of building s enior citizen facilities.

At the same time , as I understand the discussion, there is every intention to proceed with additional government building of senior citizen facilities throughout Manitoba. It appears to me at least from what the Ministe r indicates , that there likely will be two programs : (1) the carrying forward of the existing program ; (2) an alternative under the new Federal policy of non-profit organizations . That 's why I raised the question.

The people of Tyndall have discussed this with the government, there has been an announcement of intent; the municipality in question had made arrangements to set aside land or properties for this facility and they're sort of being caught mid-stream, Mr. Chairman. And it seems to me rather awkward or unusual to proceed in that way; I could understand it with respect to a brand new approach or a new application, but this has been in the works for some time. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman , I can only say to the honou rable member that he'd better speak to his colleague.

He had not recommended Tyndall in any one of his recommendations; even the MHRC submitted recommendations of where projects should go, the Minister came back with a list of where he thought projects would go, then there was a direct ive given to the construction department of what they should proceed with - Tyndall was not on. I am informed that the previous Minister gave a commitment to Tyndall to survey the need and would be looked at on that basis. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Minister to then consult with his staff who are there at his elbow, because I am aware, and participated , in a press announcement announcing three projects: one in Tyndall, one in Garson , and one in Beausejour . They were all done on the same day, and the staff that is here is aware of that, Mr. Chairman . What the Minister has stated is not correct. There has been a public announcemen t in full dress , with the municipalities involved , announcing the three projects at the same time . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman , on the list of project s that I have in front of me, Beausejour and Garson were there ; Tyndall , there was no plans when we came to office, there was no architect appointed , and there was nothing done . At no time, just checking with the staff , if the Minister decided to make a press release saying Tyndall, it could quite easily have happened , but -(Interject ion) ! beg your pardon? I am informed that there was an inco rrect reporting in The Beaver which was contrary to the Minister 's intentions , so I guess the Minister wasn't to blame either. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, 1 raise a question again . Because of my personal involvement at that particula r time , I can advise e the Minister that the intent, and we had a meeting in the Minister's office on it, subsequent to which a trip was made out to Beausejour and the announcement was made with the intention of proceeding with the three units . There 's no doubt about that, Mr. Chairman, that was done with the staff and the Minister present and in the presence of the R.M. of Brokenhead, the Community of Garson, and the Town of Beausejour . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman , I am info rmed that the announceme nt that was made that day was the intention of Garson , Birds Hill, and Beausejour , and there was an indirect statement made 2826 .... ... ....

Monday, May 29, 1978 in The Beaver, and the commitment made to Tyndall was that there would be a survey made. Now that's the information I have at the present time and I can tell you that there was not an architect appointed; there was not even any request for an architect on Tyndall; there were no plans or anything when we came to office, and I assure you that Tyndall is not listed in the projects that were recommended by the previous Min ister . MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I am sure that the staff could advise the Minister that there was a meeting held to discuss Tyndall along with Beausejour and Garson , and it was decided then and subsequent ly announced that the three projects would proceed and that although the architectural work was not undertaken, the announcement was made that t he project would be proceeded with whenever the land was assembled and that was to be subject to negotiations with the R.M. of Brokenhead . And after that point, they would undertake to plan and design and construct a facil ity.

Because there was no readily available land, they were not able to proceed at that time, but the announcement was made all at the same time . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I think that that only confirms what I have been s aying , that the previous Minister obviously said that he would take a study of it to see if there was land available , etc . I am told that Mr. Dubowits was at that meet ing and there was a commi tment made to survey and check it out . But I have given you a comm itment.

I have said to you that we have been checking it out and we feel that they would be better to go on the non-profit situation, because Garson is very close to Tyndall , and you 're going to have senior citizen homes there and the qualifications for senior citizens is such that the number of people in that area are not available that actually qualify. But you do have a lot of people that are senior citizens that would qualify to live in non-profit senior citizens housing, that is what we are going to be discuss ing with Tyndall. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has completely contradicted himself in that he has indicated the other day and today, that he has unfilled facilities, facilities that were not built in the community of the applicants choice who are idle, and that his preference would be to accommodate with facilities those communities who wish to have them, and where there are applications for them. Now he is telling me that the Tyndall people should accommodate themselves in a neighbouring community , that they should not look forward towards having their own facility where they prefer to live.

That's a complete contradiction of the Minister 's position of the other day and indeed today. Surely the Minister isn't suggesting a double standard here for different communities. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman , it is not a complete contradiction, and the member should try to keep himself clear on this. I said that because of the Garson senior citizens home that is being built, Garson and Tyndall are very close together . I told you the other night, I just said that now .

I said it probably would be more preferab le for Tyndall to look at the non-profit type of senior citizens home, which would accommodate people who don't qualify for Garson , and they can do that under the non-profit , and that's what I said last night we were suggesting for Tyndall, or the other day. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, if the member had stayed while I was answering his question, _.I he probably would have known that, but he was halfway out the door when I started to answer .r'" him. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I heard the comments of the Minister the other day, so that he doesn 't have to feel that I was not in on the discussion. I again point out to the Minister that you have two communit ies here - although they are relatively close together - that the people from one community don't wish to relocate to the other community, either way with respect to these kind of facilities . I am not talking about people who would not be eligib le for the standard service that we now provide ; I am not talking about the kind of program that the Minister describes in his non-profit arrangemen t.

I am talking about people who would be eligible under the present criter ia for senior citizen housing involving governmental subsidies on rent and so on, so that we're talking apples and oranges here, Mr. Chairman. The Minister is indicating that I should be talking about a different clientele altogether , a clientele that could participate in a non-profit arrangement which would be self-sustaining . I am not talking about that, Mr. Chairman , I am talking about the regular program that is available for the people of Manitoba , that is wanted by people in the Tyndall commun ity. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I would be willing to venture that Tyndall with Garson, Beausejour, and the senior citizen accommodation that is available within the area, that when we take a look at the need for Tyndall as we did in Garson - in Garson we had approximately 16 applications I think and we built 12, and on that basis we probably should have built 8 or 6 - I'd be willing 2827

Monday, May 29, 1978 to say and I am not sure , but we will do the survey , that if we were to build 12 units in Tyndall of more senior cit izen housing , we would have trouble filling them or we would be emptying people that are living in their own houses at the present time into those units . So I am suggesting that there are a lot of people in the senior citizen a9e group who want to live in senior citizens accommodation, who because they have assets that are such that they can't, that the Tyndall area should look at the non-profit type of accommodation, the non-profit type of unit.

That doesn't mean to say that if somebody in Tyndall comes along that qualifies for senior citizens housing , cannot be subsidized in that unit. That is more than likely - in fact that's some of the arrangements we have now with non-profits . MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman , I'm not sure if I'm getting through to the Minister. I am not suggesting that we build a facility that is not needed . I am merely asking the Minister, that if a survey could show a demand facto r, whether the government is prepared to carry on with the project . I am not asking him to build one where there is no demand . MR.

JOHNSTON: Well, certainly the demands will have to be with in the limits of what we have coming from the CMHC, that is first of all what we have to look at , and I've said to the member that I will and we are surveying Tyndall at the present time . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I am really pleased to see that the Minister is now going to be fair and at least let the MLAs in the various constituencies know what 's going on in the department. ... May I ask the Minister, and if this question has already been raised , I will withdraw it.

How many housing boards or authorities do you have today in the Prov ince of Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: I am told it's 115 housing authorities . MR. McKENZIE: Are there more contemplated? MR. JOHNSTON: No, Mr. Chairman , we establish a housing authority when we decide to build in an area . If there was one there previously , they take it over , if there wasn 't, we establish a new one. MR. McKENZIE: Could the Minister for the benefit of the Committee spell out the terms of reference of these members on these various boards or authorities? MR. JOHNSTON: Well it has been answered before, but I can do it quickly.

It's one-third from the tenants; one-third from the town or munic ipality ; and one-third appointed by the Minister. MR. McKENZIE: The next question . What is the most predom inant problem that you see dealing at this level of government with those boards or authori ties? MR. JOHNSTON: I don't think we have what you might call a predominant problem . We find that the housing authority people in the rural area are usually very , very conscientious people.

We do have some problems with housing authorities when we get to the larger communities: Dauphin, Portage, Thompson, Churchill is one that is a problem , and naturally Winnipeg . But the problems are minor; it's something that can usually be overcome very quickly by our staff . MR. McKENZIE: There's no problem with the construction of the buildings or the - basically they have been reasonably well constructed and in order. MR. JOHNSTON: I would say that the construction in the rural area has been good .

I would not say that the construction nor the design in the Winn ipeg area has been everything I would like it ~ to be; I don't know about anybody else. MR. McKENZIE: May I ask the Minister now, on these units that are under people that don't pay their rent, or there is money owing, are there any arrears at all of rent or telephone, hydro ; let's class it as accounts receivable? MR. JOHNSTON: Our arrears are probably higher than the private industry. We're running about four percent, which is lower than most of the othe r provinces that h ave public housing.

We are starting to become very concerned and making it known that the rent must be paid because if they 2828

/ Monday, May 29, 1978 don't have their own funds to pay them , they apply for assistance from the government in some way, shape , or form to get their rent paid and if that happens, we think it should be paid . So we are try ing to toughen up as much as possible . MR. McKENZIE: Can you give me a round figure of the accounts receivable as of the last time you looked at it? MR. JOHNSTON: At the end of December , I think we were in arrears of close to $500,000 if I'm not mistaken .

I had that figure in a speech that I made to some of our housing authority people and I think at the end of December - $489,000 in rents owing - at the end of December, 1977. MR. McKENZIE: What do you class in arrears - 30 days, 6 months , 12 months ; is it in arrears after 30 days? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, after 30 days if they haven't paid their rent , it 's in arrears , yes. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Minister what vehicle do you use then to collect those moneys?

Do you go out and take a lien or do you tell the utilities to shut off the hydro, or the telephone, or is that left to the local housing authority or how do you deal with that matter? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, we have the housing authority in the area and if it's large enough , we have a manager in the area who goes out and tries to collect the rent. If it's a continuing problem with the person, we have to give notice like anybody else.

As we said, the rents are paid; money for rent is paid to them by somebody, but the Landlord and Tenant Act prevails on us the same as it does anybody else and we have to abide by that, but we certainly try to get our rents collected. MR. McKENZIE: I thank the Minister. The Critical Home Repair Program, no doubt that's been dealt with at some length, and I congratulate the former government for bringing that program in.

All governments, as I say, the years I've been here, they bring in good legislat ion, good programs, and I congratulate the former government for that and I congratulate the Minister for continuing with it. I am wondering though, what type of surveillance or people you are sending in to check in on some of these buildings, to see if in fact it's worth spending the taxpayers ' dollars to repair those .

I am not sure about whether the Minister cont inued with that paint program, but I saw paint going on about 17 layers of paint, and I wondered why that old paint shouldn't have been scraped off and the contractor, whoever is in charge to do that painting program, that any painter today if he's worth his salt, will scrape off the old paint and go back and preserve that old lumber, but I saw paint going on layers and layers of paint.

Does the department send anybody out or MHRC to check that building and see, you know , supposing you're going - to spend a thousand dollars, and naturally those people that are in that, and the program is a good one and those people are most deserving , in a lot of cases I've seen them spending a thousand dollars on a building that actually isn't worth a thousand dollars. It would be much better to do someth ing ... Is that considered at all? MR. JONSTON: Well, it's a ticklish subject.

There are certainly houses that you're spending money on that you wonder whether you should or not , but the senior citizen is living there and they feel that they don't want to move. But we do - when the application comes in - we have an inspector that goes out and looks at the project, makes sure that the person qualifies for the work that they are requesting to be done . If it is, we ask them to get prices and submit them to us. We take the lowest tender usually and award the work .

When the work is finished , an inspector goes out to inspect the work and if he is satisfied and the person is satisfied , we pay the bill. MR. McKENZIE: Now may I ask, on an application under the Critical Home Repair, what's spelled out in the application? The qualifications, the tenant, is it a means test, or just an application, or do you ask the local municipality or a local jurisdiction to initial it, that in fact it's legit , or do you just . . . ? I am told that in most cases these applications, people go in there and it comes out holus-bolus .

In a lot of cases, if the inspector would at least communicate with the village secretary, or the town secretary, or the municipality, a better liaison could be established and the program would work a lot better . Now maybe that's being done and I'm not aware of it, but I wonder if the Minister would consider that in case it isn't being done in some jurisdictions . 2829

Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, we're taking a look at that at the present time. At the present time, the application is filled out by the person, I think it's very close to being an honor system - it's a declaration 1 am told - and the application shows that if you earn X number of dollars to X number of dollars, you qualify for X amount of money. And then up to a certain amount, and if you've had something done this year, certainly you won't be first in line next year; you can only go so far . MR.

McKENZIE: Well, for the benefit of the Chairman - in case you're not aware- the Department of Municipal Planning is carrying a pretty heavy mallet out in my constituency, and I suspect if you're not, that we'd better start real quick dealing with the jurisdictions because I have people in my jurisdiction who can't change a fence post without a permit. And they're in the municipal planning scheme and 1 am told that these programs are going on under the Critical Home Repair Program outside the jurisdiction of the Planning, because the local municipalities are not being brought into the scene at all.

There have been some concerns expressed by municipal people in my area that they are being by-passed, and yet we're under the jurisdiction of the Planning scheme . I am wondering, are these Critical Home Repair Programs or proposed repairs, being brought to the attention of the local planning district? MR. JOHNSTON: I don't know . I can't really tell you whether the person that's applying to have some repairs done in his area or around his home, I would imagine they have to have the building permits that anybody else would have to have. · MR. McKENZIE: Apparently, it's not that way ... MR.

JOHNSTON: But our Critical Home Repair is mostly roofs, painting , heating systems , electrical, things of that nature. I think that they would have to have the local inspection the same as anybody else, but I don't know about them checking with the planning district. MR. McKENZIE: Well, just for the benefit of the Committee and the Minister, and Municipal Planning here of course is a vehicle of the Legislature, and we passed it and approved it.

I suspect and I have evidence in my area that a lot of these jobs are not being brought to the attention of the local municipal body, and maybe some of them are but I just suggest to the Committee and to the Minister that we shouldn't bypass that vehicle because we could have some problems and 1 think the program is a worthy one and one that we support and approve, all members of the Committee.

And just to improve upon it, it might be worthwhile to when these applications. . . let the local municipal body at least know that it's being done , and I'm sure they wouldn't turn it down, , but at least they know that we're not working behind their backs in the area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona . MR.

WILSON PARASIUK: I'd just like to ask a short questio n of the Minister regarding what I thought was an undertaking on Thursday , May 25, Page 2668 of the Hansard, where the Minister undertook that he would provide a written statement breaking down , in as rough form as they could ge, tthe statement of operations for 1978 and the statement of operat ions on which they base their Estimate requirements for 1979 . MR. JOHNSTON: It's in the works . MR. PARASIUK: I was wondering, you know , I'm just raising it as a reminder, perhaps we could have it for tomorrow if we meet at 2:30 . With that , Mr.

Chairman, I move that C.ommittee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the members of the Committee who aren't informed, it was agreed upon by the government side that we would quit at 10:30 , so the Mo~ion is -(I nterjection)- To the members of the Committee, there are other questions and the Member for Brandon East who isn't present , the former Minister, has asked that he be allowed to ask some questions and it was just agreed upon between the Whip , the Member for Gladstone and the Member for Transcona . Unfortunately the Member for Gladstone left the room , so the Motion - Committee rise. MOTION presented and carried.

SUPPLY - HEALTH 2830

•• Monday, May 29, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 would like to draw the attention of the honourable members to the gallery on my right, where we have 26 cubs from the 169th Westdale Wolverines Cub Pack under the direction of Mr. Woods and Mrs . Spence . This cub pack is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Charleswood. 1 would draw the honourable members ' attention to Page 38 under the Estimates of Health and Social Development. We are on Item (h)

(1) Dental Services : Salaries-pass - the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL MILLER: Mr. Chairman, although I did participate in the debate when it first started, I mostly have sat back and tried to get a reading on what the Minister is doing with Children's Dental Health Services . He has been trying to create the impression that there is really little difference on his side of the House and between our side of the House, that the objectives are the same, that in fact it is just a matter of working things out. But, Mr. Chairman, I reject that image that the Minister is trying so desperately to project.

You know, he has a number of times said he really can 't quarrel with the need for a Children 's Dental Health Program . But he questions a state-run operation and he says is is necessary in his point of view that the private dental sector , the dentists in private practice become involved. He implies, of course, that under our plan they couldn't become involved. Well, that is absolute nonsense . The plan that is in existence today in 29 school divisions does include, can include, people in private practice. The fact of the matter is that any dentist can enter into the plan. The difference is this, Mr.

Chairman: In order for a plan to work and to be economically within our reach - now, I don 't mean today - I'll use the term the Minister often uses, downstream costs, because he refers constantly to not only the immediate costs, but the downstream costs, and I agree with him. You have to look at downstream costs. But there is no doubt in my mind from having studied the plans, having personally been involved in developing the plan and seeing it work elsewhere, that the downstream costs in order to be within reason can only work if it is not a plan under the control of the dentists in private practice . Mr.

Chairman, the difference of opinion between the MDA, the Manitoba Dental Association and ourselves was that very key thing. Who controls the plan and who becomes captive if the plan is controlled by the private sector? Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt in my mind that if we follow the route the Minister is now suggesting that the dentists in private practice should be brought into the plan, that he hasn't had a fair shake, and that no matter how desirable that somehow he is not in favour of a state-run plan.

If we follow that, then the plan will become controlled by, and therefore will become captive of, the dentists in private practice . And we need only look at Medicare to see what happens, or any service, to see what happens when one group has the power of life or death. And they do, because they can withdraw their services when they so choose; you don't have an alternative. You have to work for them, you have no choice . I recall - I forget when it was, years ago - when a new

schedule was established in dentistry for those people who were on welfare and it was put to the Dental Association and they rejected it. And they simply said, "Sorry, we are not going to look after these people. We don 't like the tee you're giving us because it is on a fee-for-service basis and therefore we're not simply going to serve these people." Then they sort of backed away little and said, "We will leave it up to the individual dentist and he will do what he wants. " So some did, in fact , look after the needs of people on welfare. There were others who didn't.

Of course , there always were a number who wanted no part of it and they picked and chose whether or not they would treat people who are on welfare and accept the fees that the government at that time indicated would be paid. Mr. Chairman , if you go to a fee-for-service basis - and that 's what the Minister is saying and that's what the MDA is saying - if you go to a fee-for-service, you will go broke trying to expand the Children's Dental Plan to the point where it takes in the entire community.

Because remember we are starting with the five and six-year-olds and maybe seven, in some areas, but the plan envisages annually adding one more year as the children go from age five to six, continuing those who have already been treated in one year, continuing on and on and on until I think they are age 16 - or is it 18? I forget which. So that over a period of a number of years you are covering all the children, including those that are ready to graduate out of school and those that are still coming in at the bottom end. And so you are dealing with a huge sector of the population. 2831

Monday, May 29, 1978 If you are going to deal on the basis of a fee-for-service , which has to be negotiated annually with the dentists who can either go in or go out, depending on how they feel, then you will inevitably end up in the most expensive plan possible . So I say to the Minister that although his objective, as he puts it, may be the same as ours, I say it isn't. Because his objective is this : First, and I'll use that since he has already been tagged with it, I will use the same analogy. Cost first , need second; in the case of health facilities .

Here is the way I see what the Minister has said : First, there shall be fee-for-service, because that's what the MDA wants . Second, that it shall be controlled by the dentists working in private practice. Third, the downstream costs, and last, the needs of the children insofar as their dental needs are concerned . Because you are not going to get the utilization - no way.

The logic of working in the schools rather than having the children brought to a dental office - which they may or may not or which their parents may or may not do - the logic of working through the school is so obvious that I can't understand the hesitation. If the Minister would take a day or two and go to Saskatchewan and see the setups within the schools themselves, where the atmosphere is such that to the children it becomes - it's almost a picnic really to go to the dentist. How different it is when you go into any dental office here.

There is a fear; you know, people don 't flock to dentists, whether adults or children. There's a tendency to be somewhat frightened of dentists. But the setup as it's created there was to create an atmosphere where fear has been simply dispelled, where the peer pressure group of other children has made it almost as if the children were participating in an acceptable activity, which is going throuuugh the dental clinic at the school, having their teeth checked , having the various - not just a lecture, you know - the Minister mentioned that there is a dental health education going on all the time.

Lectures don't mean a thing; you have to be there to see how the dental health nurses are dealing with the children, and almost teasing them into becoming more aware of their dental health needs and doing something about it. So it's an entirely different ambience in a dental office and in the school itself; it becomes part of the school activity . So that I can't accept the case, or the arguments that the Minister puts forward. I say he's being penny-wise and dollar foolish . I am saying, if he's concerned about downstream costs, then don't get trapped by the MDA into accepting a fee for service and control.

Because that's what they're looking for, and that's what apparently the Minister is willing to give them . If you want a dental program that over a number of years is going to cover a huge sect ion of the population, then you have to use your para-professionals , you have to use your para-dental people. And certainly , the Minister made a point that it's difficult to get dentists to go into northern Manitoba and other remote areas; of course it's difficult, and it's always going to be difficult.

You know, the people , professionals who are mobile, prefer not to be isolated , not just for money reasons but for social reasons, for cultural reasons, for reasons of family. As the Ministe r knows , it's very uncommon , even teachers who may go off to teach in northern Manitoba , as soon as their own children become of school age, they want back into southern Manitoba .

But , by using dental nurses, by using para-dental people , and training them as they are being done now, you have a people who are on a 20-month course doing a very narrow but specific work in developing a very, let 's say a narrow , specific skill, but they become so perfect at it because that is all they do. They do it for 20 months , and they do it in the field, and they become expert, just as a draftsman becomes better at drafting than an architect, who knows more about it, theoretically. But if he doesn 't do it day and night , constantly , he loses his skill; he loses his speed .

The use of para-dentals is absolutely essential , and certainly in our plan , the one in existence, the dentist supervises . But there 's a difference, perha ps, in the terminology . , When the Manitoba Dental Association talks of supervis ion, they mean that the dentists must be standing there and maybe he'll allow the dental nurse to probe in the mouth . But the dentist is sitting there . He'll let the dental hygienist clean my teeth but then he'll walk in and take a look around, and says, ' "Pretty " or "Not pretty" or whatever it is, in which case, the dentist has to be present.

The plan that exists today, it was modelled after Saskatchewan, and I know the Saskatchewan plan better than I know the Manitoba plan at this point, is that the dental nurse does nothing that the dentist hasn't already agreed to. The X-rays are taken . The X-rays are read by a dentist. The procedures to be followed are established by a dentist and simply carried through by the dental nurse . Six months later , a year later , the chart is checked , the X-rays are taken and it is seen whether or not more work is needed or whether the work is done in accordance with the dentist's requirement.

But you don 't have to have the physica l presence of the dentists right t here. If you 're going to depend on the dentists to be physically present , then you are not going to get the mass utilization; it's 2832 :

. ' - - .. Monday, May 29, 1978 going to be a lot more expensive program and the downstream costs the Minister is concerned about in other areas, and certainly should be concerned in this area, I predict are going to cost us much more money than the plan that was developed here. The Minister mentioned $9 million or $10 millio n is what he foresaw or anticipated that our plan would cost for Manitoba. I suggest to him, he'll be lucky if he gets away with $20 mill ion the way· he's going through the MDA, and will not get the kind of 80 percent or 85 percent utilization that we now have.

You know, 80 and 85 percent , it 's extremely high compared to the present, compared to what' s been going on for years. If you had 24 percent of the children going to a dentist - I think if I recall some of the figures it was in that area, 23 to 25 percent - that was considered good denta l coverage because it' s left to the parents and not all the parents are interested and it costs money, but apart from the money there isn't the same feeling about, or concern, about the dental health needs of a child, and parents haven't got that concern as much as they do with the medical health .

Having to take the child to the dentist , having him go to the dentist, maybe having to sit with them, it's far different than having the activity take place within the school itself where the children may leave the classroom for a few minutes , go in, go out , go back to the classroom , it's a totally different milieu and therefore it is a milieu in which the thing can work and has proven to work and has proven to work well. So I say to the Minister that I don 't accept his statement , the image he's trying to create of saying, "We're all on the same side . We all want the same thing." Mr.

Chairman, maybe he can speak for others in my group , he isn't on side with me. What he wants , I say is not attainable and for that reason , I don 't want . I don 't want the Dental Association, the brass, to control the program . I don 't want them to have a strangleho

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-51b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 51b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7a88155671c699967ba59ef36d390db9d1d31ddc

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