February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 293 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Monday, February 3, 1975 8:00 p.m. [Mr.Speaker resumed the Chair at 8 p.m.] D R. BACKUS: Mr.Speaker, may I ask consent of the House to revert to Introduction of Visitors? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS (reversion) DR. BACKUS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the House - and I would say that anyone who is proposing to speak tonight will certainly be put on their mettle - because I wish to introduce 14 charming members of the Meadowlark Toastmistress Club who are sitting in your gallery. I believe most of them are from your constituency. However, I can claim that at least one of them voted for me. head: CONSIDERATION OF HIS HONOUR THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR'S SPEECH (continued) MR. YOUNG: It is with a great deal of pleasure, Mr. Speaker, that I address myself to the Throne Speech this evening.

I would like to begin in the usual way and to offer my commendation to the Lieutenant- Governor, Mr. Ralph Steinhauer, for his achievement that has brought singular honor to this province of Alberta and to his Native people. I think this is a recognition which is long overdue, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure Mr. Steinhauer will carry it off very well. For the benefit of those members of the Assembly who were not able to take advantage of the opportunity extended to members by the Lieutenant-Governor and Mrs.

Steinhauer rather recently, I think all of us who were able to attend upon their hospitality were very much impressed and were given an opportunity to get to know the Lieutenant-Governor in a more unofficial capacity. I am sure the qualities he displayed on that occasion, he will display throughout his service to the Province of Alberta and that he will do well by us and by his office. Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Edmonton Strathcona and the hon. Member for Athabasca prepared and delivered very excellent reports upon the Throne Speech.

I have no intention of trying to break out into the Cree language and to outdo the hon. Member for Edmonton Strathcona. I commend him for his effort. Mr. Speaker - and this is not for the benefit of the ladies in the gallery, I had planned to do this in any event, Mr. Speaker - I would like to acknowledge the tremendous service you have given the Assembly. There were many gracious comments made upon the occasion of your assuming the Chair. Mr.

Speaker, in my estimation you have lived up to every one of them with your mastery of the rules, your ability to conduct the House with grace, wit and humor, and with alacrity as I discovered late last week. Mr. Speaker, I should like to say I think the Throne Speech is a very good document, a document which outlines well the government's general concern for the individuals in our society, for the people aspect of government. It would have been easy, Mr.

Speaker, and perhaps it would have been accepted as the natural thing to do for a strong government which I believe our government to be - to have dedicated a major portion of the Throne Speech to the problems and challenges in terms of the oil industry; to the challenges in terms of business and commerce in general in Alberta. Mr. Speaker, it is my opinion that the Throne Speech demonstrated an awareness of one of government's functions, that is, looking to the distribution of wealth and income in our society.

294 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 I say that, Mr. Speaker, to hark again to some comments I made earlier in an amendment speech and these relate to inflation. Mr. Speaker, it is my view that during times of inflation such as we have now, the onus and responsibility is upon government to assure that the income which Albertans enjoy is fairly evenly distributed. Inflation, as we all know, creates instability. It causes people to look at their flow of income in ways they ordinarily would not. It makes it more difficult for people to relate themselves and their expectations to reality.

For instance, if any one of us today were negotiating a collective agreement which was to be in effect 18 months from now, the challenges of doing that in a situation as we have today, with inflation running somewhat in the order of 10 per cent per annum or a little better, are much much greater than in those times when we have a history, a short history if you will, a pattern of inflation at 2 or 3 per cent.

It is much much more difficult for all persons: those at the negotiating table, those who have to vote, for senior citizens, for businessmen, for any one of us in times of inflation to relate our expectations to the future and to try to identify our relative position in terms of income flows. That, Mr. Speaker, is a challenge which faces us today. I think our government, Mr. Speaker, has done well and has, in the Throne Speech, recognized various groups that are unable to participate in an ongoing way in adjustments of their income and must rely upon government action.

I speak, first of all, of the changes in the forecast for The Workers' Compensation Act. Mr. Speaker, I would be remiss if I did not express appreciation on behalf of a number of constituents I have who have come to me about The Workers' Compensation Act. Whether it was by oversight - and I think that is what happened. Certainly as a member of this House when The Workers' Compensation Act was amended last time, I did not realize we were not doing a total review of the levels of pension benefit. That did not happen, although I do believe the majority of pensions were adjusted upward.

It is my hope - and I continue to impress and impose myself upon the minister with memoranda - that all the pensioners receiving benefits under The Workers' Compensation Act receive recognition for the kind of inflation and changes taking place in our society today. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the senior citizens program, I will speak in terms of one senior citizen in particular who lives in one of the residences for senior citizens in my constituency, who in December came to me and was outlining his budget to me and saying, you know, just $10 more, just $10 would make a tremendous difference to me. Mr.

Speaker, the program that has been outlined to provide a minimum of $235 per month under the Alberta Assured Income Plan is not going to make anyone roaring wealthy. We know that. On the other hand it does improve upon their position now. For the pensioner I speak of in particular, it will make a substantial difference. Mr. Speaker, one of the areas which inflation touches and which frequently goes unconsidered, I believe, is the area of volunteer effort.

I say unconsidered in the sense that most voluntary organizations over a period of time develop on the part of those who contribute toward their efforts in a financial way; develop patterns of contribution. My experience involved in some of these organizations is that contributions tend to stay at a given level even when prices increase as they have. Volunteer contributions always tend to lag.

Our government has taken some substantial steps to assist in that respect and the Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation with his recently announced program, will go a long way, in my opinion, toward overcoming some of these problems. That particular program, Mr. Speaker, I favor for another reason.

I happen to represent an urban constituency, a constituency which with 15 others is generally considered to be part of the Edmonton metropolitan area and in that connection is the home of part of innumerable types of recreation activities and groups who try to sponsor recreation activities, cultural events and youth events. Mr. Speaker, the situation as it now stands is that some of these groups, in fact a good number, are seeking funds for various purposes all of which are beneficial to their members and to the citizens of Edmonton.

Some of these ventures and some of the purposes for which funds are sought are of a very substantial undertaking. I speak in terms of not $100,000, not a $1,000, not $1 million - some of them several million dollars and more.

It is my conviction, as a member of this Assembly, that when projects of that magnitude are necessary and desirable to serve citizens in a given area and when there are more projects, at least appear on the surface to be more projects than can be financed in the short run, and that some decisions have to made among these projects, the proper authorities, the proper persons responsible for those decisions, at least in part, are the municipal and civic authorities elected in that area. Mr.

Speaker, the program which was unveiled last Friday will indeed give the municipal council and the various groups operating within the respective municipality, the opportunity between them to cooperate and to determine the relative importance of the various projects. I think this simply has to be, otherwise we risk a duplication in some way of projects and services. I for one am very pleased with the announcement of that project. I think it will be beneficial to the citizens - in particular in my constituency - in the whole of Alberta, and I commend the minister on it. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to turn now to several matters of a constituency nature. The first one of these relates to a program in my community. It happens to be my own specific community in Edmonton as well as my constituency. It is the project which was begun this fall, and, in fact, as I viewed it the other day, is under construction now; a pilot project for living facilities for the physically handicapped. The capital funding for that project is provided through the Elves Estate to the Alberta Rehabilitation Council

February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 295 for the Disabled. The operational funds for that project will be provided by the Government of Alberta. It is an attempt to accommodate in the neighborhood of eight to ten physically handicapped adults in the nature of a home situation, to try to give them an opportunity, if they wish, outside an institutional framework, to make them as totally independent of outside aid as possible in their daily living. I believe this will be a successful venture. I know that among the handicapped and disabled themselves there is some debate about whether they all would wish to do this.

There is some debate among persons who work with them. But, Mr. Speaker, there is certainly a large number who would be interested in such a project, and I will watch with interest as to how successful it is. I commend the Minister of Health and Social Development for his cooperation in assisting the Alberta Rehabilitation Council to undertake that project. Mr.

Speaker, when I was first elected, one of the very great sources of pressure I received as an MLA came in connection with the situation of the mentally handicapped and especially those families with youth in the age range usually of 10 to 16, the young adolescent teenage period. These families could, in some instances, be sorely tried by children who, going through that phase of their growth, required a rapidly increasing amount of attention. Our provincial facilities at that time were just inadequate, Mr. Speaker. There have been some very great strides made and more are announced in the Throne Speech.

I realize this is a very long term program to complete. Nevertheless I believe substantial progress has been made in three and a half years. It may be of interest to some members to know that statistically speaking about .25 per cent of the population is anticipated to be in some stage of what is considered profound retardation, that is they are unable to learn any social skills and cannot even perform simple physical tasks. They require constant protection and care. About .75 per cent is normally expected to be classified as severely retarded. They will require institutional care. Mr.

Speaker, the moderately and mildly retarded can range as high as 3 per cent of the population. This is the group of persons who, if we do not as a public provide facilities and assistance, become such a burden upon their families that they can create a breakdown of those family units and thus contribute to further social problems. I have another project I'm very pleased to advance at this time to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I know the minister will listen well because I will first compliment him upon the success of the project in the Canora community.

This relates to the neighborhood improvement project which has teen carried out in the Canora neighborhood of my constituency. I have described before the nature of that neighborhood - a relatively run-down neighborhood in need of substantial improvement of the infrastructure, that is water, sewage, et cetera. Parks and housing were in very bad repair. Because of the neighborhood program and with the leadership of some local citizens, it was possible to generate attention and action from city council which resulted in the area being zoned so that the maximum development was a duplex development.

Before that, we were beginning to get quite a large number of walk-up apartments - not the very top quality of walk-up apartments - and the density of the area was increasing very rapidly. It had the appearances of becoming an area that could rapidly deteriorate into serious slum conditions. With the advent of that program, we now have a stabilized social structure. The owners who lived in the area before, and who are still there, have undertaken considerable upgrading in the area of their homes, and there are many new homes, and new families now living in duplexes.

One of the matters now under consideration is a senior citizens residence, and the senior citizens have been working on this for some two years. I hope it will be close to fruition shortly. It will provide for a fairly large number of senior citizens, but it is anticipated that most of these people will come from the community. Unlike many areas of Edmonton - this is a portion of the old Jasper Place town - many of these people have lived there for 30 years and they do not wish to move out of the area. So, hon. minister, we look forward to a very positive response in connection with that residence.

I should say that since that senior citizens committee has been planning for this particular project, the Operation New Roof report has been received. I was intrigued to note that among other things, they suggest in this report that the location of senior citizen lodges should be away from downtown but close to a shopping area. The project should be in the neighborhood where the senior citizens have lived if possible. The particular site the group presently working in my constituency is looking at is about half a block from a bus station, about half a block from a post office and a shopping area, grocery stores.

In other words it has all the facilities which are mentioned in Operation New Roof. While I'm speaking in connection with senior citizens, I should like to raise a question which has occurred to me in connection with the project in Canora, and in connection with our efforts as a government to provide adequate housing for senior citizens. The question that has come to mind is the long-term idealism of having senior citizens somewhat segregated. I look at my own family, my two daughters, and think of my own childhood. From time to time it is desirable to think of one's childhood.

I try to compare the situation and the ways in which I learned to the situation of my daughters. My daughters are far removed from their grandparents, see them only for two or three weeks a year at most;

whereas when I was growing up, I saw my grandparents virtually every week. I think that was beneficial both for my grandparents and for myself. I think it would be

296 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 beneficial if my daughters could have learned from their grandparents. I wonder sometimes if in identifying housing - and I realize we will need to continue doing this - for senior citizens in segregated units we are not doing a disservice at least to some senior citizens and to our society. I think we need a good mix of housing accommodation for senior citizens and I am pleased to see recognition in the Throne Speech of the reasons for senior citizens going into lodges.

It’s very difficult, and it's very difficult particularly in the day and age in which we live with costs mounting very rapidly while pensioners, some of them at least, are on relatively fixed incomes, for them to repair their homes. I am pleased to see recognition of this in the Throne Speech in the fact that maybe we can work toward a balanced program of special lodges and special residences combined with the opportunity for persons in their own homes to have their homes repaired. Mr.

Speaker, I want in closing to just say a couple of words with respect to an issue which most of the speakers in the Throne Speech debate have not mentioned and perhaps I shouldn't, but that is the oil energy situation in Alberta. I'd just like very quickly to outline the situation as I see it. Mr. Speaker, whether or not Syncrude goes forward, I think, depends on a number of matters. First of all, as I see it, Alberta as a province does not have to have for her own supply the oil out of Syncrude.

The more rapid growth, the more rapid economic development would be beneficial to Alberta's economy and business, no doubt. On the other hand, the very soundness of our economy is such that we could weather the brief interruption of our expectations if Syncrude did not go forward. But I think it is very important that whether Syncrude goes forward or not should depend upon the interest of the federal government. The federal government is the one which shares the responsibility for sources of supply for oil in Canada.

I believe that if Syncrude is going to go forward and needs government help, the federal government has the prime responsibility - I don't suggest the only responsibility - but has the prime responsibility as a government to show its faith in Syncrude as part of a national oil supply. Unless the federal government does that, I think that I as a legislator in Alberta, would not feel greatly required to support any government funding from Alberta in that project.

If that should happen, I see the events we are currently witnessing as the beginning of an oil supply policy which I think would be most beneficial to Canada in the long run. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, in looking at what some of the papers term negotiating and bargaining is merely the travail of a number of parties to arrive at a beginning of an oil policy in Canada which is long overdue. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lethbridge West followed by the hon. Member for Stettler. MR. GRUENWALD: I too would like to take

part in this Throne Speech debate and, like other members, congratulate the Lieutenant-Governor on his deliverance of that speech. I would also like to congratulate previous speakers who have talked about the government's accomplishments, the cabinet ministers who have outlined their programs and the government through the Throne Speech and through their own talks when they spoke of the accomplishments they have made for the last year, the last two years, possibly the last three or three and a half years.

I believe it's only right that the government should point out their accomplishments to the Legislature and to the people of Alberta. I think it's also right that the cabinet ministers should make known to us the accomplishments and the progress they have made in their own departments. But I think we should point out, Mr. Speaker, when we're talking about our accomplishments, we shouldn't measure our accomplishments simply because of the positions we hold. After all, the government is elected by the people to do the job to provide for the needs of our society.

Therefore we shouldn't measure our success by the position we hold but by the obstacles we must overcome. I think this is what is important. The government in this province has the things to do with, they have the wherewith to do these things. If they didn't, of course we would have a right to be very disappointed in the government. Therefore, like I say, it's okay to congratulate themselves but they should also be thankful they have the wherewith to do those types of things.

In the Speech from the Throne several things were mentioned, like what they are doing for senior citizens, that I think we would all agree with and I think we would all applaud. I'm sure no person would disagree with being helpful toward our senior citizens because we all realize the contribution they have made to our society throughout the years. I'm sure many of the parents of some of you here are much like my own who homesteaded in this country and who broke the first soil with a walking plough.

I would only mention one thing regarding the senior citizens and I would have to concur with what the Member for Drayton Valley mentioned this afternoon. There is an area where a senior citizen can be hard done by for a temporary period. That is the one referred to where a senior citizen, receiving certain benefits, and his or her spouse or dependants would also receive them.

But if the one senior citizen is over 65 and the wife or husband, whichever the case may be - maybe he is below 65 - if the older one should pass away, certainly those benefits should continue for as long as that spouse would need them or until he remarries. That would be just the one thing I believe should be considered. I take note of the announcement made on Friday by the Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation, namely the $200 million fund that was set aside for recreation and cultural

February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 297 facility developments. The only thing that bothers me about this fund, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that in the question period on Friday it was indicated that these funds would be allocated on a basis of first come, first served. I would hope the minister and his department would give some consideration to that method of distributing those funds.

It would seem to me that if we're going to distribute those funds on the basis of need and of ability to contribute to them on a participatory basis, it probably would be better if the minister or the government or his department would advertise each year, say that they would receive applications for use of these funds up to a certain date - whether it is March 31, or June 30, it wouldn't make any difference. But I believe all applications from the province should come in first and should all be assessed at the same time.

Those which show the greatest need, those which show they have the ability to pay their portion of it should be given first preference. You see, a gift isn't always a good thing for a municipality. Very often a gift from one level of government to another level of government doesn't necessarily go to the people. Sometimes it causes a hardship to the people.

As a matter of fact, it reminds me very much of a situation where the wife told her husband that she had to get up early Monday morning because the first hundred people who got down to a certain department store would get for themselves a brand new pair of shoes, a good pair of shoes. The husband said, "You can't go down there. We can't afford those shoes." She said, "How do you mean we can't afford it? They're free." He said, "Yes, this is true, they are free.

But when you get those new shoes, I have to buy for you a purse that matches the shoes and gloves that match the purse and a coat to keep you warm and a hat to match the coat. So we can't afford those free shoes." This can happen very much in this type of gift to a municipality. They can encumber themselves, take on certain programs which they maybe shouldn't be taking or wouldn't be taking if half of it or any portion of it were not being paid for by another level of government. I believe this is worth considering. There is another area that I noticed was touched on by the Speech from the Throne.

It was one which I'll just barely refer to, that is the one in the area of housing. I believe that housing for newly married people, young people, is essential. I think there is nothing more basic, more conducive to good family living than a home for a young married couple; a home of their own, not just an apartment or secondary type of living accommodation and masses of public housing. Certainly one of the ways in which I believe the government could do something along those lines, to make available to certain people up to a certain level of income for a very basic type of home, would be low-interest mortgages.

I think we can all recognize the fact that low-interest mortgages wouldn't necessarily, and probably wouldn't at all, reduce the cost of a home. It doesn't take a very smart person to realize the difference between paying for, say, a $30,000 mortgage over a 25-year period, comparing a 5 or 6 per cent mortgage against a 10 or 10.5 per cent mortgage.

It would seem to me if we could have some of the funds of this province, if there are surplus funds, put in on a revolving basis, it would at least help some of our people get into a home on a first-time basis; a very basic type of home, but a home our young marrieds could call their own. In the field of education, I'm going to say little except in the area of advanced education. I'm simply going to point out again to the minister that I've hoped he hasn't forgotten the need for a school of optometry in western Canada, preferably in Alberta.

I hope he would take the leadership and keep pushing and plodding to see if we can't get this school of optometry out here. We know there is a need for it. We know it would be well patronized. We believe there is money available if we go after it. I just hope the minister hasn't forgotten about that and won't be involved or bogged down in dynamic inaction; that he would carry on and plod on and make this school a reality. I was going to make some remarks regarding the Department of Education, but because of an event over the weekend, I'm going to save those remarks for the Budget. Instead of doing that, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to just take a moment, with the permission of the Speaker in the House, briefly to pay tribute to a man, Dr. M.E. Lazerte, certainly a giant in the field of education in this province, who passed away this past weekend. Dr. Lazerte certainly was a Dean of Education in the full sense of the word. The contribution he made to education in this province was absolutely enormous. He made it as a teacher, as a principal, as a superintendent, as Dean of the Faculty of Education of The University of Alberta, as a school trustee and as an alderman.

I had the privilege, when I was President of the Alberta School Trustees' Association, to present to the late Dr. Lazerte his life membership in the Alberta School Trustees' Association. I only wish I had with me the list of his accomplishments I was able to point out at that particular time. Had I known of this event before I came, I would have brought it. I just want to say, Mr. Speaker, that we as Albertans are the beneficiaries of this man's service and I am sure we will for a long time reap the benefits of the services Dr. Lazerte gave to the province of Alberta.

On my own behalf, and I am sure on behalf of the Legislature, we extend to Mrs. Lazerte and her family our deepest sympathy for the loss of this great man. There is one other area I would like to deal with and deal with at a little bit more length, Mr. Speaker, one that hasn't been dealt with to any extent yet during the debate on the Throne Speech. This is an area which I think has become increasingly important to the people of Alberta, to all Canada, to North America, to the whole world as a matter of fact, and that is our respect for law and order.

I think it is something to take a look at, get concerned about, and concerned about in a very practical and active way. There

298 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 are different ways of doing this. I am sure we all recognize that. I wish the Solicitor General were here this evening because many of the remarks would pertain to her department and I am sure she would be more than pleased to have the good advice I am going to give her this evening. Wouldn't it be fine if we could give some recognition to the municipal police of this province. During the past couple of years, much money was given to good and desirable publicity recognizing the Royal Canadian Mounted Police through centennial celebrations.

This was done both on a federal and a provincial basis. Funds were made available from both groups and this was good, Mr. Speaker. It was desirable, it was well deserved by the RCMP and I wouldn't in any way want to take away from the work the RCMP have done for this country in the last 100 years. They always get their man and we will give them full marks and full credit for it. I am sure all police officers, all police agencies and the public are proud of the accomplishments which were made by the Mounted Police of this province.

But now that that's over, should we not be doing something along the same lines for our municipal police. Municipal police, Mr. Speaker, have a very difficult job to perform in this province, in any province, because policing cities is a very difficult and a very dangerous task. I'm sure you will all agree. Where do most of the muggings, the break- ins, the robberies, the rapes, the peddling of dope and illegal drugs, impaired driving, reckless driving, vandalism, violence, arson - the list is endless. These people are caught in most of this type of crime solving.

I'm sure that recent events in the cities of Calgary and Edmonton will bear this out. They have a very difficult and dangerous job to perform. I think it's safe to say there is no more dedicated group of men - and women as a matter of fact because they are involved - who are often working under extreme difficulties. There are extreme difficulties because of a shortage of manpower and of course of inadequate budgets to a great extent. This makes their jobs even more difficult. I would just like to see a general upgrading of our police forces.

I think they should be seen as professional and dedicated people who are interested in the safety of our people no matter where and no matter when. They will never be looked on, I suppose, with the glamor, if you want to call it that, that the RCMP were. But that isn't important and it isn't expected. I don't think that's important at all. The municipal police should, on the other hand, never be looked on as a second-class law enforcement agency. I believe we should and we must increase the manpower in our municipal police forces.

I say this because I am much more interested in crime prevention than I am in crime solving. Now that doesn't mean I want to see Alberta turn into a police state. I don't want to see a policeman over every hill, around every corner, under every bush and behind every billboard, and all the rest of it. We do need more and we need men who are well trained, who are clearly visible to the public. That's what is important, having them clearly visible to the public, because visibility of police officers certainly is a deterrent to crime.

And certainly prevention is far more desirable, far more economical than solving crimes and running down the criminals once the crime has been committed. There must be a concentration on a crackdown on crime of all descriptions. I'm particularly concerned, probably one of our really big problems is impaired driving on the streets of our cities and on highways. I know there is a great hue and cry from the general public about the cost of automobile insurance premiums. There is a tremendous lot of opposition to the high premiums many people have to have.

If we could do away with the problem and be relieved of the problem of having to deal with impaired driving, I can tell you, Mr. Speaker and members of this Legislature, that the problems and the premiums of insurance now used to pay for property damage and bodily injury would be cut drastically, and you would all feel the effects of it. I accept the fact that alcoholism and drug addiction and so on are recognized as serious illnesses, and they should be treated accordingly. But driving while impaired is absolute nonsense and it should not be tolerated under any circumstances.

That offence, which is a serious one, should be treated with severe penalties. I really have very little tolerance with this type of activity. Mr. Speaker, I just want to re-emphasize the fact that I think there should be a concentrated effort on law and order and on safety for our citizens. There must be a respect for the law, a respect and a consideration for the other person. This is one of the things we lack in our society, respect for that other man whether we're driving or what we're doing - for him, for his family and for his property.

I think this recognition for our municipal police should be on a very wide provincial basis to show that they are in fact a first-class law enforcement agency. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. GRUENWALD: So, in an effort to portray and project the high image of our law enforcement agency, I would suggest that we do come up with a program such as that sometime within the next year, I would hope, keeping in mind that anyone who is respected must, of course, earn that respect, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much.

February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 299 MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, it's indeed a pleasure to be able to take

part in this debate. I would like to start by paying some attention to one of the statements in the Speech from the Throne regarding the fact that the government is actively seeking "suggestions as to how government can better assist volunteers in a partnership way." I am concerned about the situation with regard to volunteers in our society. It is rather sad to have noticed in The Edmonton Journal recently that a group calling themselves the Volunteer Action Centre has not been able to find funds, at least at the time I read the article.

The problem of getting people who are volunteers into the system of supplying the needs required by our society is a big one. It was that type of thing which, as I understand it, the Volunteer Action Centre did. A study entitled "The Female Volunteer" was done by two ladies. We all received a copy of that publication. In the publication you will find the reaction of individuals to the question: what is the greatest problem facing the volunteer today? A brief

summary of those concerns is, first of all, the reaction that there are not enough volunteers. There is apathy. The cost of volunteering is large from the point of view of the personal expenses of the volunteer. There is lack of understanding and of recognition of the volunteer. There are too many demands upon the experienced and willing volunteer. There is a lack of experience and training. There is a lack of cooperation from professionals, governments and other agencies. I believe that if a similar survey was conducted of male volunteers, the reactions would be somewhat the same.

So, in answer to the problem and perhaps as a suggestion as to what might be done to better assist volunteers, I would suggest a way must be found to recognize the work done by volunteers in the province of Alberta. I would suggest a system whereby there is an annual banquet at which citizens who have contributed as volunteers could be rewarded by presentation of a plague which would recognize the contribution these volunteers have made to our society.

Also I would suggest an effort be made that when employment application forms are made out, those responsible for their preparation include in them a space for the work done by volunteers. I would also suggest that perhaps the Government of Alberta get together with the Alberta Chamber of Commerce, the Alberta Federation of Labour and perhaps Unifarm to put on the banquet each year in some location throughout Alberta at which these awards could be presented. All the volunteer is asking for is just some recognition for his or her contribution to our society.

A second proposal I'd like to suggest is that the government must find some way to fund the work done by volunteers in such a way that the programs - the actual programs the volunteer is working on - are supported, but that the government's presence through its dollars does not take away initiative. I'm thinking particularly of the things that go on in my constituency and I'm sure it's no different in any others. For example, we have hospital auxiliaries that are able to raise some $90,000 to provide furnishings for a new hospital.

In the area of disaster services we have people who are prepared to take time off to do a lot of work. At the moment, these people are not receiving very much in the way of recompense for the loss of wages. Very often their employers will continue their wages or salaries while they are away on some course. But I think we could do better. What about all the work that's done with the mentally and physically handicapped and the aged - all the recreational and cultural pursuits which go on in our constituencies. What about the library auxiliaries.

What about the family service associations and all the work done by people who are volunteering their time. I think if we can in some manner make sure that our programs are supported, and at the same time don't take away the initiative of these people, we'll be doing them a service. I'd also ask that the government consider more work in the area of training programs to assist people with their volunteer work. I'd like to see the work done by the colleges and universities through courses which are there and which really assist volunteers in the work they are going to be doing.

Seminars and leadership training is required for these people because the experienced volunteers get all the work. Those who are interested in trying to help need the training because they can't operate without getting some training. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to touch on another matter which is of particular concern in my constituency, and that relates to the supply of doctors in rural Alberta. I was rather concerned when I read in the newspaper that the health ministers had agreed unanimously to an Ontario plan to restrict immigration and movement by foreign doctors.

I'm sure [mine is] not any different from many rural areas. The situation, Mr. Speaker, is that we rely to a great extent on foreign doctors. In fact we would not be able to deliver the health services unless we had doctors from foreign lands. I was therefore very pleased to hear the Minister of Health, when he was discussing the Medical Profession Act, indicate that the Medical Profession Act itself will not prevent the foreign doctors coming in.

They will be able to take their LMCC examinations on two separate occasions and under the regulations under that act, which will have to go before the Lieutenant Governor in Council, there is in fact an undertaking to make sure that the foreign doctors who do come to Alberta will have an opportunity to qualify. I'd like to spend the rest of my available time on the subject which was touched on by the previous speaker, the Member for Lethbridge West. I think there are a number of disturbing developments in Alberta.

The situation has, of course, been highlighted in my constituency by, as appears at this moment at least, the unexplained killing of a farm couple near Stettler. There are also a number of other incidents, such as the kidnapping of an RCMP constable near Edmonton, the killing of a policeman in Calgary. There seems to be an

300 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 increase in the number of people who wish to draw attention to themselves by behavior which is harmful to themselves and others. I'm disturbed by the number of incidents involving the abduction of an individual to achieve some ends. I realize the question of whether tragedies such as some of these should receive coverage in the press is a difficult one. The press of course is on the horns of a dilemma. Yet the psychologists seem to be telling us there is a relationship between the publicity these tragedies receive and some of the events which follow.

I'm also concerned as a parent and as an individual about the number of TV programs which depict killings and abductions. [Applause] I see that strikes a note in my colleague from Lacombe. But when you look at programs like Police Woman, Cannon, Hawaii Five-0, Streets of San Francisco, Kung Fu, Police Surgeon, Police Story, Mannix - and you know we listen to these things. Great stories, but every one of them involves killing and abduction of individuals for our entertainment.

I reached the conclusion somehow or other that because of the realism in these TV programs, there must be a rub-off on us as people and particularly on our youngsters. It disturbs me that we seem to be able to do nothing about it. It sells soap. It sells various types of products. It seems to be good business because these shows all go on at prime time. Somehow or other I think we as individuals, as citizens, must show our disapproval of too much of this type of thing. The realism that the camera can portray is something which we must, I think, have to recognize. This is not a play. This is not

an act which is done on stage where everyone knows that as soon as the curtain drops, the people get up and walk away. The realism that is there on the TV camera is very real to us who watch it and especially to the children who watch these things. I'm also somewhat concerned about the number of people who are out of our jails on passes of various kinds who commit further crimes. I saw an incredible one in the press recently. It was reported that certain individuals had not returned to jail following the Christmas passes. The

article went on to say these particular individuals had been convicted of armed robbery and then went on and said they, are not considered dangerous. I find it hard to believe that someone who has been convicted of armed robbery is not considered dangerous. It may well be that that is the case. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a person who has had very much to do with the reforming of criminals. I've seen it from the other end. I've seen it when these things happen. For press statements to come out that these people who have been released on passes are not considered dangerous, I find it a little hard to swallow.

I don't know whether there is anything in the fact that once in a while, you see a number of people who have been released from mental institutions committing crimes. Every once in a while, there is a disaster involving one of these individuals.

I think the people who are doing their work are trying their best but the number of incidents, especially of late, seems to really raise the issue: are we in fact able to make an adequate decision as to whether someone who is in a mental home for a long period of time should be released, especially where there is schizophrenia involved and especially where there are incidents involving what is virtually criminal behavior as far as the rest of society is concerned. I'm also concerned about the number of people out on bail who commit further crimes.

In a recent story on that in the press, I noticed the Alberta Hospital director had stated that the increased laxity in the correctional system may be keeping lawbreakers from understanding why they have been punished. If that's the case, I think we should certainly be concerned about the number of people who are released on bail while they are there and, in fact, going on to commit further crimes. There has just been too much of it, I think, for most people not to be concerned. All these events have really made a number of people extremely sceptical of our judicial system.

It throws a black pall, you might say, over the work which no doubt a lot of people are doing and doing well. The way I understand the mood of people right now is there is a definite clamor for the reintroduction of the death penalty. I notice the churches, 8 of 11 belonging to the Canadian Council of Churches, are opposed to the death sentence. I know certainly the Alberta Members of Parliament in Ottawa are finding out from their constituents, very forcibly right at this time, views on this particular subject with petitions circulating throughout all of our constituencies, I'm sure.

I think the mood of the people at this time is that they are somewhat disillusioned with the parole system and very suspicious that those in charge are in fact not doing the job they have in mind as to what the system is supposed to do. Now what can be done? There's no easy answer of course to the upsurge in violence. I think the main thing perhaps that should be done here is, as the previous speaker said, to complement and support the police and their work.

It's with that in mind that I was very pleased to see the editor of my own community newspaper place a front page editorial, congratulating the police on their work involving what we hope is the finding of the person responsible for the murders at Stettler. I think this type of approval and support must be given to the police forces if we are to have any control and any safety within our province. We need it. We need that feeling of security presented by a police force which is doing their work, doing their duty. Incidentally, in the vast majority of cases when something like this happens, the members

February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 301 of the RCMP go to unbelievable lengths to get to work to solve the problem. In particular, in Stettler, it appears they did an excellent job. I think the people who are in charge of the parole system are going to have to publicize their work. I don't know, and I feel that probably most people in this legislature right now are not that cognizant of the work which is done by the parole officers.

I think the people who run our parole system are going to have to explain to the public at large what they do in their work; what they hope they achieve; the kind of results they are getting. Sometimes one hears the results are very good and yet there are incidents which certainly right now are causing a great deal of concern. The same is true of our mental institutions. I think, again, somehow or other we should publicize the work which is done in the mental institutions.

I think it would have two effects; one, of not making the mental institution quite the terrible place to have to be because we have become unstable for some reason. The second advantage is that the general public know and support the work which is done within our mental institutions because I am sure that work is well done in the majority of instances. But again we have had some bad slips recently.

When someone has been convicted of a crime and there is a recognition at that time that there are some mental or psychological problems or behavioral problems that need to be corrected, I don't know and I am not convinced as yet whether these people are actually getting some help. So many times I have seen the people in our lower court system saying that well, this person needs a trade or this person needs some psychological help, and they seem to disappear into that vast maw of our jail system. You just wonder whether they ever actually receive the help they should be getting. Maybe they are.

I am sure that some do. But it is quite evident from some of the instances we have seen recently, that leaves very much to be desired. I think if there is help that should be given to these people, it should be given. They shouldn't just be left to serve out their time, get an early parole and come back into the very situation which prompted the problem in the first place. Eight now of course there is a great plea among people that if a judge actually passes sentence - whatever it may be - it is suggested that that sentence must be carried out.

For someone else to shorten the sentence to the point where the convicted person is released, some people cannot see the logic to it. I know the question of course arises that there are too many of those who run afoul of the law who might be farming the system and have cultivated ways of getting an early release. I cannot fault them for trying. I am sure if I were in that position, I would probably do the same. But I do ask that those who are administering the system inform the public of the principles involved. Again I would refer to the comments of the Director of the Alberta Hospital, Dr.

David Cornish, where he is quoted as saying that "increased laxity in the correctional system may keep lawbreakers from understanding why they are being punished." If that is the case, I think the public should understand what is involved in our parole system and try, by the public knowledge, to make sure that those who are involved in the jail and in parole know exactly what is involved in being released early. I think there are a number of things happening, especially here in Alberta, which really are encouraging.

I am very pleased indeed to see the number of provincial judges increased from 1971, when there were 45, to 1975 as of February 1 when there will be 60 provincial judges. That is an excellent record. I would also point out that all of those appointments are in fact from the legal fraternity. Not one of those appointments has been of a layman as far as legal matters are concerned. I think that goes extremely well and supports what the Attorney General of this province stated when he came into office; that future appointees would all be lawyers.

I am also pleased that he has been able to increase the number of court reporters. As he stated in the question period just the other day, it has increased from 56 to 98, which is an increase of some 70 per cent. He has also been able to begin a course at NAIT for court reporters, graduating some 8 to 10 students per year. Part of the problem in the court system is a lack of court reporters who are able to work those extremely strenuous hours in the courtroom, taking things down accurately and then transcribing them for the use of the judges, and the prosecuting and the defence attorneys.

The whole system can only operate as long as we have judges and court reporters, and I think the Attorney General of this province has taken every step to make sure that in fact the system will be improved. I would like, in the next three minutes that are left, to cover just two or three items. I would like to pay particular attention to the retirement on December 4 last year of the former Chief Justice of Alberta, Mr. Justice S. Bruce Smith. He became Chief Justice in 1961, the sixth Chief Justice of Alberta, and for the last 14 years has been head of the province's court system.

Of course at that time he was also Chief Justice of the Northwest Territories Appeal Court. His retirement marked the end of a particularly good period in our court system and I think we should all recognize that fact. The province did so by having a dinner for him. He is a very gracious individual. Also I'd like to pay particular tribute to the Minister of Justice for the appointment of the new Chief Justice of Alberta, William McGillivray. He of course is a native-born Albertan who resided in Calgary and practised law in Calgary since 1943.

He's been a bencher for 10 years and was president of the Law Society in 1969. His father also, I believe, was a member of the court. With these types of things happening in the field of law and order, I believe the system within the province of Alberta is in good hands. The Kirby Commission Report no

302 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 doubt will be paid particular attention by the Attorney General. The new coroner's act no doubt will be in in due time. There will be improvement in facilities and services used by the provincial courts, and there will be some new directions in adult corrections. No doubt it is this type of thing which will have a great deal of effect in settling the community back to order. That is what is needed at this time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BATIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I too would like to join the other members in congratulating His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor on his first presentation of the Speech from the Throne. I would like to commend the mover and the seconder to accept this resolution. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of observations I would like to make [about what] I have found in this Throne Speech that are going to affect and benefit the people of Alberta and particularly those whom I represent in my constituency. For too many years, Mr. Speaker, the Vegreville constituency has been overlooked or looked at as if it didn't exist.

Very often people wondered if they either had poor representation, or they never had anything. It makes me think of one particular area that perturbed me for many years. That was a piece of highway by Vegreville. For some reason, for the last dozen years prior to 1971 this stretch of road stood narrow without shoulders, the only stretch from the Saskatchewan border probably to the British Columbia border on that road. Mishap after mishap and fatality after fatality.

The only thing done was a few years before election new survey pegs were put in to give the appearance of a bustling activity, yet nothing was ever done. MR. DIXON: They ... that 60 years ago. MR. BATIUK: I think back to 1971, Mr. Speaker, when I was going to Vegreville with the Leader of the Opposition at that time. We were going to a meeting and on this trip he says to me, "Does this path take us to Vegreville?" I say, "Well Peter, this is Highway 16. It's part of the Yellowhead Route and the second busiest highway in the province." The only thing he commented was, "I hope they will turn it upside down.

It would be smoother underneath." Mr. Speaker, I must say that during these last couple of years that road has been turned upside down. It's been widened. It's got its cold mix and this coming year, when it has its finishing touch, it will be comparable to any road from Lloydminster to the British Columbia border. Mr. Speaker, while recently on a visit to the town of Holden in my constituency, one of the elderly citizens told me, "You know John", he says, "we have better communication from you even though you live 30 miles away from here than we did when we had our representative right here in Holden.

He never knew what was going on." I did sympathize with him and I said "Maybe it wasn't the member's fault. So little did go on that he had little to communicate." When I was first elected, there was a real dog-in-the-manger attitude in my constituency. When the first program was announced, all the communities jumped on me. Why did this one get it, why didn't we? I told them I represent everyone and everything can't be done at one time, but they felt that would probably be the only project in the next 20 years so they felt they were being left out. However, I have a happy bunch of people in the constituency. Mr.

Speaker, I am very glad that the three priorities of our government are senior citizens, recreational and cultural facilities and housing. I think all these are the major priorities. Mr. Speaker, the senior citizen is a very important issue in my constituency. No doubt it is the same all over the province. However, it may be just a little different in the Vegreville constituency. There are ethnic groups all over the province and there are a number in the Vegreville constituency. However, the majority of the people are Ukrainian, which is the third largest population in Alberta.

The reason for this is that the first Ukrainian immigrant who came to Canada in 1891 resided in the Vegreville constituency where he farmed until his passing only a few years ago. That is why most of these people came to the area. They weren't educated and they wanted to be close together. No wonder it is a real Ukrainian settlement. I would also like to mention that because of this, many of them did not have a chance for an education.

Probably many of our parents or grandparents fled - some of them risked their lives and many of them lost their lives while fleeing from areas where state control and socialism existed. So the people didn't have the chance here to educate themselves. They worked hard to bring up their families and when the golden years arrived maybe they weren't able to save for themselves for the later years.

With a program such as this, an assurance of an income with all the other benefits they are going to receive,] can see that the senior citizens of my constituency are going to live their later years with dignity and security. Also, with the recreational and cultural facilities, as I have mentioned, they do keep their cultural activities. Over the last year, two very important things have occurred in the constituency. Last June, the Chamber of Commerce sponsored the first Ukrainian festival in Vegreville which was actually the first one west of Dauphin, Manitoba. This

February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 303 year they are going ahead with another one. They expect to make it much better and more successful than the last. Just recently I saw a letter in which the Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation expressed his blessings and wished them success, which I am sure they will have. Also last fall, although I didn't attend it, the Two Hills Ukrainian dancers, the young people, were performing at the Heritage Park near Elk Island.

Fortunately the Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation was there, because he, on his own, made arrangements for these students from Two Hills to go to Spokane. They did and they received world recognition. So, as I say, these programs are very important. Mr. Speaker, housing too is one of the most important priorities of our government and it should be that way. I think every Albertan is entitled to own a home if he so desires. Because of the mobility of people, I know that all will not want or are not able to own their own home, but I think that whoever wants to should have that privilege. Mr.

Speaker, I particularly stress those who are earning a modest income. Anyone earning slightly more than the minimum wage or so forth, if he has a wife and a family there is no way that he will ever provide for a home for himself. Maybe where there is a wife and man working, they'll live off the income of one and the other can go towards the house.

When we see that just a few years ago there was only $12 million in the Alberta Housing Corporation and it has been raised to $136 million in 1974 and the amount is going to be greater, I hope the minister would see that in some way or other these people on lower incomes could be assured of loans with a maximum interest of maybe 7 or 8 per cent. Never will they be able to acquire their home if they have to pay 12, 14 per cent and more interest. In this program also is the accommodation for senior citizens and I must say that maybe that is the best program the former government initiated.

However, they didn't go far enough. I'm very glad our government is progressing with this at a fast pace, but because of the number waiting for accommodation it will take a number of years to catch up. Mr. Speaker, up to now there is one senior citizens lodge in the Vegreville constituency, which takes in four foundations. When I hear some of the members say, well we're looking to our third and fourth one, I hope, too, the minister will see the need for another one or two in our area.

Here again I must say the local governments agree with us because whether you go to Tofield, Two Hills or Holden they all want accommodation. The people there and the local councils know that these senior citizens lodges are not going to bring them any revenue. They will even be a hardship to some extent because most of them operate at a deficit. However they believe the senior citizens deserve that accommodation. Mr. Speaker, agriculture continues to stand on a high priority with our government.

Here again despite the criticisms, particularly on the opposite side, I am very glad with all the programs that are being initiated. I recall very well in 1965 when the Premier of that time spoke in the Jubilee Auditorium to almost 2,000 people and said, within ten years 85 per cent of the population of this province is going to be in the two metropolitan cities, and there is nothing that can be done about it. I must say that had the former administration existed to this day they would have reached their prediction and destination. However, I can see that the trend is being reversed.

Of the eight urban areas in my constituency, four have already stabilized and four have increased in population. The school population has increased and the trend is in the right direction. Mr. Speaker, in this Throne Speech I see that Alberta's gross farm income has for the first time increased to more than $1 billion, which is very true. But I think it also would have been true if it had stated that it reached $2 billion. When we look at Statistics Canada, they show that in 1970, not the gross but the net income of the farmers in Alberta was $270 million.

In 1974 it reached almost $900 million, and I wouldn't be surprised if it maybe even reached a billion dollars. Statistics Canada cannot have an accurate dollar. I know myself, being a farmer, very often somebody from the city or from the town drops in, "Well, could we buy a jar of cream." "Yes." "Could we get a couple of dozen eggs." Well it means very little, but that's not shown anyplace. When you come inside of a whole year, no doubt it brings a couple of hundred dollars. I wouldn't be surprised, I think maybe every farmer does that. Even I'm sure the hon.

Member for Clover Bar who likes to make many times but as I say I'm sure there are people who drop into his strawberry farm occasionally and ... AN HON. MEMBER: Does he report it? MR. BATIUK: ... pick up a pail of strawberries. I'm sure he doesn't go to phone the Department of National Revenue to send him a T4 slip for the three or four dollars. MR. LUDWIG: Do you record your ... [inaudible] ... sales? MR. BATIUK: We'll have one for you. Mr. Speaker, even about the strawberry farm I just wondered whether a special warrant didn't provide for those several thousand plants.

304 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 Mr. Speaker, there has been criticism from the Leader of the Opposition and others that these programs are getting a lot of local governments into debt and so forth, particularly these ag. societies. Well I must say one just opened very recently right in my home town. The senior citizens hockey club has been formed and the only ones who can join are 60 or over. There are 18 of them. In appreciation of the government which provided this opportunity for them to join, they have already ordered uniforms in orange and blue. Mr.

Speaker, I'm not going to go too much into the programs. There are a lot of programs in the recreation and culture areas. The improved medical services, I know we all appreciate them. Provincial parks is something I would like to say a few words about. I appreciate particularly the two parks for Calgary and Edmonton. I think this has been long overdue. Very often, every Sunday throughout the summer, the people from these two cities, which are half the population of Alberta, drive out into the rural areas. The highways are congested.

Every weekend, 50, 60 and 80 people are being slaughtered on the highways in Canada. Now the people who stay in the city all week will at least have a chance to spend their time in their own parks. Probably we from the rural areas will be able to go and visit with them and get the hospitality back once in a while. Even though we have a number of provincial parks, I would also urge the minister to consider an area, a lake, the Lac Sante, which is not in the Vegreville constituency. It's in the constituency of St.

Paul but it is in the exact centre geographically, between Garner Lake Provincial Park and Vermilion Provincial Park. I know if this was developed into a park, it would serve many people including those in the Vegreville constituency. Mr. Speaker, I would like to express a few thoughts about the education program. For many years I have served as a school trustee. Just at the last convention I received from the Alberta School Trustees Association a long-service award. Many times I did not agree with all the programs of the government, however, for many years, I tried to bear out.

I know that portfolio is a hard one. The Department of Education has a big job on its hands. However, I am glad I can see some of the programs going into effect, particularly the significant increase in the role of parents in curriculum and decision-making. However, more important is the start to decentralize curriculum development throughout the province. Mr. Speaker, for many years the more devoted teachers have already beenm aking adjustments to meet the needs of the student; they didn't look at the curricul ums et out by the Department of Education.

I am indeed glad the minister gives recognition and encouragement to this program. Also in number 3: "Initiatives to improve school libraries, following assessment of the reaction to 'The Right to Know," a report by Downey, it was found that library services had failed to keep pace with the development of society and with library developments elsewhere due to lack of leadership and inadequate resources allocated to libraries. Here is also something very important.

Another area which gives me concern is that, "... an intensive review now underway, increases in support for all categories of handicapped children." I recall that at one of our school trustees' seminars, maybe 10, 12 or 15 years ago, we were told that one fifth of the children entering school today have learning disabilities. I definitely think the time has come when there should be specialists testing these children. Many times in the past, the teachers with no experience and no training for this maybe had felt, well, the child is a dummy and that's why he is not learning.

However, now with specialists, these disabilities will be detected earlier and treatment could begin much sooner. "Expanded emphasis on consumer education, environmental education and Canadian content in learning materials." - I think this too is very important. I think we should encourage more Canadian materials and make them more readily available at a cheaper cost. I believe that during the 12 years that a child goes to school, he learns about the West Indies. What does he know about Canada? Mr.

Speaker, I wouldn't be surprised if someone went to a high school today and asked the students what they know about John A. Macdonald; maybe 9 out of 10 wouldn't know that he was a prime minister. Maybe some of them would guess that he was the manufacturer of Export cigarettes. So I think, Mr. Speaker, this is in the right direction. Health and Social Development - here is something that really interested me. This summer I had a chance for the first time to visit the Alberta Hospital and Deerhome, and I saw about 1,700 handicapped persons there.

This was the first time; I never thought that anything like that existed and I think we are very fortunate that there are so many people who have dedicated themselves to look after these unfortunate people. I'm glad that renovations are being made and from what I saw in that hospital there is a shortage just because it's hard to get registered nurses and so forth. However, I'm very glad that this is a high priority. Mr. Speaker, as far as the environment is concerned, this too is a very important item in the Vegreville constituency.

Records show that since 1906 there have been periodical floodings along the Vermilion River. Yet through all the years, nothing was done by the previous governments. People would probably get a sympathy note but that was all. In 1973, the Vermilion River flooded its banks. Immediately a study was made $54,000 was the compensation made to the farmers who lost their grain alongside the river. In 1974 a more drastic emergency occurred, of which I'm sure you are all aware, when the Vermilion River flooded its banks.

The hospital was under water, the nursing home, the auxiliary hospital, the schools, the churches and numerous other residences.

February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 305 Immediately the Premier, along with the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Lands and Forests, came out. They viewed the situation and action was taken at once. I wonder what would have happened had the Premier said, well, you know, we'll go back to session and we'll see if the Legislature passes anything for this. This was an emergency. The Premier gave the local county council the authority to break a couple of bridges, the roads, to do anything.

Now if our government had had to wait for legislation and be careful not to have any special warrants, I could see what would have happened. Already the Minister of the Environment has committed himself to almost $2 million for a study. The study has been finished. There's going to be a three-phase project to drain the river where it affects other people. But the town of Vegreville, with 4,000 people and steadily increasing, is concerned because they need the water from the river. So there is going to be a water management program which means a lot for the Vegreville constituency.

There has been a lot of criticism, particularly from the Leader of the Opposition, that 15 per cent increase is not enough for the municipal tax reduction. I wonder what would have happened had the previous government been in office today when they put the freeze on $38 million. I think that nobody in the local areas would ever want to be a county or a municipal councillor. Telephones and utilities - here again are two good programs. One is the extended flat-rate calling telephone service; the other, the natural gas.

Maybe individuals have criticized it - it may be a myth or something else - despite that, this is well accepted. I think it is doing very well. Here, I would like to dwell a few minutes on transportation. These last two summers, I had the opportunity of going on agricultural tours. In 1973, I went into the area of Fairview and so forth and I saw the conditions of the roads. They were similar to those in my area. However, this summer, in July 1974, I went south into the area of Macleod. I was very glad that the hon. Member for Macleod greeted everybody. I was also greeted by him.

But if he knew I was going to see more things than agriculture, maybe he would have felt sorry I was there. However, Mr. Speaker, when you look at the roads south of Calgary and north of Calgary, somebody would think there is an imaginary line there. Of all the roads I travelled, I didn't see any ... [inaudible] ... every rural market road is either hard- surfaced or dust-controlled. I know on the last day of our tour, the president of the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties - they provide the school buses for transportation - said, we are going up to the foothills.

I would suggest that nobody use his car because the roads are bad. Better off to go with the bus. Well, in our group we felt that rather than go with the bus and return to Macleod we could be on our way home. So we did go with our car. When we reached our destination, I asked the president of the association, "Where are those roads you said were going to be bad?" He said, "Well, you have been travelling on them for 12 miles." Mr. Speaker, I would like to see any secondary road east or north of Edmonton that has such roads as their worst ones.

The Minister of Highways isn't here, but I wish he would take this into consideration I am sure the county council does have a problem spending their money. Maybe more of that money should be spent in the northern parts. Many times we see that northern Alberta is not developed. Well, how could it be developed if the people couldn't have got there? So I do hope the minister would consider this. Also the $10 million grant to towns and villages for street improvement is well accepted.

However, here again, because of the cost of inflation, the cost of materials, those on that five-year plan who are going to be receiving these grants later are going to accomplish much less. I hope the minister will raise the proportion of those. Well, I must just say a few words about justice. I can see the judiciary has been increased by 15. No doubt the population of Alberta is growing. I guess so is crime. Many times I wonder whether it wouldn't be advantageous if even the penalties were increased percentage-wise. When you see there are 15 judges, it makes me think many times that if the hon.

Member for Calgary Mountain View's aptitude in the court house is similar to that in this Legislature, there is a real reason we need 15 more judges. I wonder whether they are not all centred around the Calgary Court House. MR. LUDWIG: I have never been in contempt of court, but I am in contempt of your remark. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, I forgot to mention that this last fall when a group of farmers from west of Spirit River were complaining about their road, maybe they had reason to complain. But I don't think their conditions were any worse than they are in my area.

Many times I wondered whether this wasn't a political holler. You know, very often socialists holler, wolf wolf whether there is a wolf or not. Mr. Speaker, it seems everybody likes a little humor. I see there are 13 minutes left for me so I was just going to say that ... AN HON. MEMBER: Thirteen?

306 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 MR. BATIUK: ... one of these judges is from the Vegreville constituency. He is a fine man. He is a really successful criminal lawyer. He has served the town well. He has served on the town council for 16 years, 13 of those as mayor. I know the people of Vegreville, just as I am really were appreciative there was somebody of such calibre to be selected. He all like judges unless we have to appear before one. I think maybe you would like to know what happened in Vegreville a number of years ago.

A man appeared before the judge to answer a charge for some offence and when the judge satisfied himself that this defendant was guilty he intimated to him that his intentions were to put him on a 30-day turnip diet in Fort Saskatchewan. You know this must have happened quite a few years ago because you don't get turnip diets now, it's all blue-brand steaks. The judge said to this defendant: "You know my eyes are identical, yet one of them is a glass one.

If you are able to guess which one is the glass one, I will let you go free from any punishment." This defendant saw it was his only means of salvation so he looked hard in the judge's eyes and finally he said, "You know, your Honour, I would guess that your left eye is the glass eye." "Right," said the judge, "Now tell me how you were able to guess." He said, "Your Honour, when I looked in your eyes I noticed that your left eye looked more merciful than the right one, so I knew it must be the glass one." Mr.

Speaker, just before concluding I would like to say that as far as industrial development [is concerned] I am very glad the minister has appropriated half a million dollars for an airport. This was even something better than the people had expected ... AN HON. MEMBER: Did he say misappropriated? MR. BATIUK: ... and because we have acquired PWA I have not heard any individual in or out of my constituency criticize it. They all felt it was a good move.

Now it seems that there are so many that are against it, I was just wondering if the minister would care to, Vegreville would be a good place to have the airport and have PWA stay there. Maybe it would be a good place to produce marmalade and we would have something to haul it with. Mr. Speaker, since my time is up I must say that I am impressed with this Throne Speech. I wait with keen anticipation for Friday when the Budget is brought down.

I am sure the Budget is going to bring much for these programs and if I can see anything that would be in accordance with my constituency I would be glad to participate in the Budget debate. Thank you. MR. BENOIT: Mr. Speaker, that will be a hard act to follow. I don't think anybody would want to say very much against what the hon. Member for Vegreville said about all the good things the government has done, either in his constituency or anyplace else. It must be a wonderful constituency now, at least since the last three or four years, from what the hon. member says. This government, Mr.

Speaker, has more money to spend than any other government I can think of, unless it be some of the Middle East countries who have fallen heir to a lot of wealth. When the people get the money from the government I guess they must be aware of the fact that it is their money. No government can spend money lavishly and make a mistake if they can continue to dole it out, because this is a definite advantage to those who are in office.

I don't think any government which has the ability to do so is likely to withhold very much of the money they have to give, even though it is the people's money, because that seems to be, as one honorable gentleman said in a farm meeting I attended not long ago, human nature. It doesn't seem to make much difference what government it is or what level of government, this seems to be the way we go. Before I enter too far into the thoughts, I would like tonight, Mr. Speaker, to offer congratulations to the new Lieutenant-Governor on his delivery of the Speech from the Throne.

I want to go a step further and congratulate those who appointed him to this particular office. This is something that I suppose is usually considered a political appointment, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is bad. There are some political things done that are good and we ought to recognize them. In this particular instance I really appreciate what the Lieutenant-Governor is doing already. He speaks his mind the way he sees it and this I appreciate. A man who is in an office of this kind has a certain amount of decorum that he's expected to keep.

But sometimes when the principles of a man take him beyond that decorum because of his strong convictions, I have a great deal of admiration for him. I feel that our new Lieutenant- Governor is going to be the kind of man who speaks his mind because he has strong convictions. I would be remiss if I didn't offer congratulations to the mover and seconder of the Speech. They did set a good pace for it and I hope we will be able to fall in line with it and not utilize more time than is necessary for the things that are really worth while. Mr.

Speaker, I appreciated a good many of the speeches that have been made on both sides of the House, in regard to the amendment as well as the Throne Speech. I have learned a lot in the past few days by listening to some of the things that have been said. I do regret, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. Member for Taber-Warner is probably incapacitated for the entire session as a result of his heart attack.

February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 307 I would like, as the hon. Minister for Health and Social Development did, to extend my - I don't know whether it would be sympathies or congratulations to those who are not running next time and probably to extend my sympathies to those of us who do run and may not be returned. It might not be our choice, it might the people's choice. We know that we won't all be back next time for various reasons and so I would like to express my concerns for all who are involved. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to extend some thoughts with regard to the philosophy of governments in this day in which we live - not only governments but other areas of activity in our society. We have enjoyed in North America and in fact in the whole world, but more specially in North America, a degree of affluence and prosperity that has never been known before by the people who have experienced it. We have no idea how long or short that degree of affluence will be, but I am becoming more and more convinced, Mr. Speaker, that it isn't doing the morality of our society any good. It deeply concerns me.

Our greed for power and money knows no end. As I heard the hon. Member for Vegreville talking about the number of things that had been contributed by way of assistance, and probably all good, I also recall that where governments spend the most money they will not always be appreciated. That is a mere fact of life because no matter how much we get we always want more. And no matter how much we give, those who receive usually want more. It's a matter of human nature and I don't know how we're going to get around it.

Our greed for money and power has contributed more to the increase of inflation, the setting of bad examples and generally having a demoralizing effect upon society than we can dream of. I think of the increases that have accrued in labor situations as a result of the bargaining agents' pleas. As a result of not getting what they wanted, they have had strikes, and these things have all increased the amount of money that was put into the economy. This was good up to a point but beyond that it becomes inflationary and creates problems.

I think of the large increases in the indemnities and expense allowances of members of the legislatures all across our country, and of Parliament, in the last 10 years. The increases have been tremendous. In our own House they have increased 375 per cent in the last 10 years. I understand the members of Parliament are wanting more. They have already cried for it and didn't get it. It has already been noted by the Government House Leader in Alberta that there will be an increase after the next election in this province for members' allowances and expense allowance indemnities. I think, Mr.

Speaker, governments are in a position particularly individuals in government - where they ought to be setting an example for the people bargaining outside. But when I see what is happening outside governments, it grieves me. Mr. Speaker, what usually is done in these cases, both by governments and bargaining agents, is to make comparisons with other jurisdictions rather than determine whether there is an actual need for the amount of increases being asked for. As long as we continue to make comparisons with other jurisdictions, there will always be somebody at the bottom of the ladder.

There will never be anybody at the top of the ladder for long because the others will always want to get higher than they are. If we happen to be a couple of rungs down the ladder we're not satisifed to go up to the next rung to be level with the next jurisdiction. We always want to top the top man. As a result, there is always someone below. This, Mr. Speaker, is not a justifiable way of making increases of wages, salaries, indemnities or whatever we want to talk about.

I know that in our society today, as high as inflation has taken some prices, there are some people on welfare, there are many old-age folks really happy with what they are getting. There are a number who are not happy; not because they don't have enough and don't have more than they have always had during the rest of their life, but because there are those who are always stirring up strife and trying to make them unhappy with their lot. I think it is a matter of grave concern, and we need to give it deep consideration that we are always after what some folks have called the almighty dollar.

I think it is time we did something about it by setting an example as governments. I am talking about governments of all levels, because the governments are spending the people's money. It is not hard to spend someone else's money if you can get it out of them and then hand it back to them and make them think you are a good fellow. We're in a very vulnerable position as a government in this regard. Therefore it calls for a great deal of self-discipline on the part of government as a whole and particularly on the part of individuals.

What is being done for senior citizens, according to the Speech from the Throne, has to be considered commendable. There is no way anyone could speak against it. The increases are not that much that it would be classed as wrong to make the increases in light of the rest of the inflationary problems with which we are surrounded. But there are two or three aspects I would like to bring to the attention of the House, Mr. Speaker. One of them is a statement made by one of the members this afternoon. I can't recall which one. I believe it was the hon.

Member for Calgary North Hill, talking about elimination of the tests for drivers' licences for senior citizens. Mr. Speaker, the fact has been drawn painfully to my attention in the last year that a number of serious automobile accidents have taken place which were the result of faults on the part of senior citizens who were involved. The police, the ... I beg your pardon?

308 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. The honorable gentleman should at least be able to document that statement he just made. MR. BENOIT: Mr. Speaker, I can if I have to. But what was just going to say, Mr. Speaker, is that the citizens of the province have been very considerate in all these cases that I am acquainted with. And so far as I know, no charges have been laid. Therefore these situations do not reach the news media. They are not publicized nor are they a matter of court action.

For that reason I know why the government is doing it and I agree 100 per cent that the road tests by senior citizens are a real frustration to them. But somewhere we have to be able to draw a line for the safety of the senior citizen himself as well as for the rest of the people in society. Now I know that a number of senior citizens previously have lost their right to drive, have lost their licence, and they have complained bitterly because they said, I have been driving for 40 or 45 years and I have never been in an accident. Yet we let all these young people who have so many accidents keep on driving.

On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, it has nothing to do with chronological age but a condition of life that accrues somewhere along the line. Someone has to stop driving because of health conditions that do not permit him to drive well enough to be safe on the highways. And so I don't know whether this is a solution to a problem, that is, the idea of doing away with driver testing for senior citizens. If this is done away with, something else must have to take its place in order to keep an eye on how senior citizens, after a certain condition in life, drive. There is another matter which I think needs consideration.

I hear every once in a while that senior citizens are complaining, saying they feel as if they are recipients of charity when they would like to be free and they would like to carry their own share of the load. Now I know that they can do this if they want to in another way but there are a lot of senior citizens who have plenty to go on who would like to be able to carry their share of the load. Yet the load has been lifted completely from them and they are now receiving all kinds of benefits that many senior citizens deeply appreciate but others would like to be able to pay for.

I know there are many senior citizens who say to me, we've never had it so good in our lives before. They are not getting all that much but they say, we never had it so good. They remember the times when they scraped and had real hardships in their lives. I would like, while we are giving consideration particularly to the continuation of the senior citizens home program, for the cabinet and particularly the ministers directly involved to give reconsideration to the senior citizens home application that came from the oil fields.

I think I have lived quite a while and have not seen such a great disappointment as was registered as a result of the rejection of the application made for a senior citizens [home] in the Black Diamond-Turner Valley area recently. As the hon. Member for Vegreville pointed out, they were only asking for a little one, like 50 or 60 rooms. Not like the $9 million one in the constituency of the hon. Member for Calgary North Hill, which was mentioned this afternoon. These are things which are hard to balance out and I want to express my appreciation.

Some of the ministers on the front row last week [were] looking more carefully to some of the representations which had been made from this area and I hope they will find it in their power to give a reconsideration to that particular application. Mr. Speaker, in checking with regard to the provincial parks, I think this is one of those things where all members can heartily agree. The more population increases, the more encroachments that are made upon the free land, the greater the need for provincial parks.

That goes particularly in the areas accessible to the larger urban centres, for there is where the bulk of the people who want that kind of accommodation will be coming from. It's hoped most of the parks will be in areas that are accessible from the larger urban areas. However, Mr. Speaker, I was concerned about the fact that little or nothing was said about the Land Use Forum and its activities, or the planning act which has been projected for some time now, which I had hoped we would be able to give consideration to.

There was one very short paragraph, two lines, dealing with land use policies and guidelines on the eastern slopes. It just simply says that it " ... will continue to evolve in cooperation with other departments". It doesn't say anything about the details of that. I realize we can't put all the details in the Throne Speech, but it would have been an encouragement for those who are really concerned about land use and land planning to have known that there might have been some hope of a definite time frame. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to just make a comment or two on a matter with this one short-line paragraph on page 10 which says: "A regional sanitary landfill policy statement is planned." I think that is excellent. Villages and hamlets in particular are having some real problems in some areas. It isn't that the villages couldn't expropriate land if they so desire, but it is a very difficult thing for a small administration to do. Somehow I feel these need special attention when it comes to the disposal of their garbage.

A number of the members have made contributions with regard to their viewpoints on the matter of justice. I was particularly appreciative of the comments made by the hon. Member for Stettler on this particular subject. I know in his vocation in life he has a particular interest, in it, and he gave us some excellent ideas. I would like to voice my

February 3, 1975 ALBERTA HANSARD 309 opinion as opposed to one of his opinions. It is a matter of opinion, therefore it is not a matter of criticism. I feel very strongly that the matter of the appointment of judges is one that needs consideration from the standpoint of not appointing all of the judges from the legal profession. I know that a lot of people would disagree with me, but I think that when it comes to places like the Legislature, we would be very much lacking in the ability of the Legislature as a whole to make decisions if we were all of one particular stripe or vocation in life.

And I think that can be said with regard to the front bench on the government side. If all the ministers were from one profession, or if all the ministers who headed departments were of a profession that was particularly with regard to that department, I think we would lack something of finesse and style when it came to making judgments. So I think when it comes to the judiciary, we could well have some provincial judges who did not come from the law profession so that there would be an opportunity for opinions to be expressed and different styles of judgments to be made.

And people would be free ... [Interjections] Yes, the statement that these judges have been appointed, and court clerks and so on, is good and I have no criticism of it. I think the government agrees also that that is not the assurance of justice. I just put behind the word justice, the word style. I wonder sometimes, when I think of this, if we’re going to equate the number of judges, law clerks and courts with the quality of justice the same as we sometimes equate money and material possessions with a statement, the quality of life.

Quality of life is often talked about as being the amount of things we can accumulate around us in this world. I don't think there is a member in this Legislature, Mr. Speaker, who really does not believe down deep in his heart that the quality of life is something much deeper and much more important than that. And yet we talk about it in a political sense; that the quality of life is how much we can get out of the society or government or job we now have.

The final paragraph on the subject of justice, I think, expresses it well and says that: My government anticipates that the report of the Kirby Board of Review on the provincial courts will enable it to effect additional changes necessary to ensure that the provincial courts, as a vital part of our judicial system, are able to provide a fair, efficient and prompt judicial service. I've always thought, Mr. Speaker, that justice is a two-edged sword.

I feel very strongly that justice means that the criminal gets his just deserts and the person who has been offended, the victim, should also be justified in as far as it is possible to make restitution in cases where the victim has been harmed. I feel very strongly that it is the responsibility of the criminal to make that restitution as far as he can and that that should be part of his penalty.

The penalty should not necessarily be punishment, but it should be a penalty which will eventually not only rehabilitate the criminal, but also become a deterrent to his further criminal acts and a deterrent to observers who might be potential criminals in the future. I feel very strongly that the way we have today of meting out justice does not always do this. There are many criminals who are not being rehabilitated. I am pretty well convinced from what I have been able to read and understand that rehabilitation does not take place in jail.

Somehow we have to figure out a system of penalties that will permit a criminal to continue carrying on his responsibilities in society while he is being rehabilitated, but in such a way that it will deter him from committing the same crime again. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I think probably when it comes to the matter of justice, we could begin in the Legislature and do such things as restore the supremacies of the Legislature and have something in the way of open government so that the people in society could get a look at what we are doing. I was very intrigued by an

article dealing with Jed Baldwin and his attempts to get open government at the federal level. When it was explained to him that it was a very difficult thing and that it could not be, he retaliated by simply saying, all government has to do is to start from the viewpoint that every bit of information it has should be available to any citizen who requests it. I understand this is the case in some of the European countries.

Anyone, whether he be a press reporter or whoever, can go into the files of a cabinet minister and look up the information he requires in order to bring the attention of the citizens to what has been transpiring in that particular department. I believe that the least government possible to provide the proper climate in which private enterprise can function effectively in the open market by the law of supply and demand is what we should be seeking. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I would say Alberta can and should set the pace for the rest of the world.

With all the money and all the income we have from our petroleum industry, the high returns from our agriculture and tourism and in the future, industry, I think we should be the first people, not only to share with others the good things we have been given, but we should also be setting the pace in research, for instance to provide alternatives for petroleum energy, because there are many people in the world who will

310 ALBERTA HANSARD February 3, 1975 never be able to afford it and who need it. What better gift could we, who are blessed as we are, give to the rest of the world than an alternative source that would be available to all creatures. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the motion by the hon. minister to adjourn the debate, do you all agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move the House do now adjourn until tomorrow afternoon at 2:30 o'clock. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the motion for adjournment by the hon.

Government House Leader, do you all agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The Assembly stands adjourned until tomorrow afternoon at 2:30 o'clock. [The House rose at 10:17 p.m.]