Volume XL Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honoural;,le P.]. McNiCholas Number 57 16 June 1988

----=~·-~-·~- ·-..:...~~- -~ ---- ---- ~::. -~.-.:.; __ ~ ... ---i...:;__~ __ __ .....__ _____ ___ .-....._ ... ~.:.:.iw.'-=l.J~~;.__..__....,~ .... ~~--~.:.o.. . .-.-.-_.__-------·- ... --,_- ... -._· ____ _ ... The House met at 2:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Before calling for Statements by Ministers, I would like to welcome to the galleries forty-five Gr·ade IU, U and UI students from Ecclesia Pentecostal Academy, Birchy Bay, with their teachers, Curtis Mouland, Philip Pollard, David Fleming, Joan Hodder. Kay Mews, and two parents, Olive Mouland and Sandra Mews. SOMf HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am pleased to make this statement today on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout). Mr. Speaker, han. membc:1rs hav 8 been aware that government has been ·Lnvolved in dtscuss.i.ons wJth the pd ncipal owner of St. Lawrence FJsh Processors L.ld. relative to the operations of the St. Lawrence and Lawn flsh plants. These discussions, covering the company--owned plant at St.

Lawrence and the leased feeder facility at Lawn, initially involved the possibility of L3091 June 16, 1988 Uol XL government assistance operation 1988. rejected detailed company 1 s operating providing financial to facilitate the of these plants · in However, government this approach after a assessment of the projected 1988 financial re:1quirements. Subsequent to government taking this dE!Cision, further discussions were ini ·t:iated with the principal owne-r of St. Lawrence! Fish Processors l..td., Mrs. Rose T.ing, with a view to government securing a lease~ on the St.

Lawrence plant and sub-leasing the plant to some! poi:enl.:ial opE~ralor. As a result of these discussions, I am very pJ.eas0d to announce that government has now signed a letter of intent w.Lth St. Lawrence Fish Processors under which government tJJill be leas-.i.ng the plant at St. Lawrence for an initial one-year period effective ye~terday, June 15, 1988. I am also pleased to announce that government has been successful in attracting a potential new operator for the St. Lawrence and Lawn plants.

It is hoped that Coley 1 s Point Fisheries Ltd., which is owned by the same principals involved in the Harbour Grace Fishing Company, wtJ.l bE! commencing operations at St. Lawrence and Lawn over the next several days. pr·ior to which the new operator will rneet with plant workers, council and fishermen 1 s representatives, and that is happening rtght ·this very minute, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, gouernment 1 s decision to move as l?xpedi.tiously as possible on this matter naturally r8flects ·lhe fact that the fishing season is now underway in the plants 1 operat:i.ng area. 1n the absence of any agreement on the operation of these seasonal plants, the incomes of plant No. 57 R3091

_____ ..__,.'·.....__.;_,_.:.~..,;. .... i.-.. . ....: ..... ~'-- .... -:;, •• ......:.;:::_ .... _ _.. ... __ ._ .... _, ____ ........ :::._._~-----·--......_ • ...:;.: _______ ..:, ___ ._~ __ ...._-..__;.-.~.....;;.-~----~-------- .. -:..:.- _ _: ___ ,., ____ .. - workers and inshore fishermen would be jeopardized during the current fishing season . Both the hon. Torn Rideout, Mi.n.i.si.:er of Fisheries, and myself, are confident that the new operators wjll be in a position to undertake effective operations at both f>t. Lawrence and Lawn. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER : Mr . Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: The han. the member for Ttui 11 i n g a t e . MR. W. CARTER : Mr. Speaker, I welcome the minister•s announcement today and I am sure the 400 or 500 plant workers and fishe rmen who depend on those two plants for their existence will welcome the announcement, as well.

I regret the minister has not seen fit to reveal some of the details on the leasi.ng arrangerneni :. l:t se:1ems t:o me, if they have already signed a let l~er· of .i.nten t, then surely the deaJ must be pretty well made and lhe cost to the government or leasing that property should be known to the m:t ni s i:er and to hi. s colleagues by this time. I do not know lf the minister is prepat•ed Lo indicate it now, but I am hoping the mi.nister will be prepared, at some point in time, to make known the financial arrangements made with Mrs. Ting for the leasing of that plant .

I am happy the plant is being leased to Harbour Grace Fisheries. My knowledge of that company is that it is a very fine, aggressive, solid, financially sound company. I know two of the principals. I guess Mr. Babb is L3092 June 16, 1988 Vol XL still one of the principals, and Mr. Joey George, bo t:h young Newfoundlanders who, I think, will make an excelJ.ent contribution to the success of that plant. And it i.s encouraging, Mr. Speaker, to see a government which encourages the Sprungs and others who come i.n hE!re, now leasing that plant to a group of young Newfoundlanders. I welcome the announcement , Mr.

S p e a .k e r , and ·l n behalf of rn y colleagues, I arn sure, I would want to congra tu1ate the minister on effecting this arrangeme!nt. It took a bit longer than we had hoped. I think it could have bE!en done probably a little sooner than it has been done, but, nevertheless, the plant is now in good hands and hopefulJ.y they will start working there soon and make it work . MR. FENWICK : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: ·rhank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Again it is a shame we di.d not get the numbers .

I understand from tha Minister of Fisheries that some financial outlay on thE! part of the Province has beE!I1 necessary in order to overcome the situation in St. Lawrence, and it IAJould be helpful for that information to be provided at the same time. However, having said that , Mr. Speaker, I think what we are looking at is the result of the disclosure decisions, or the disposal-of-assets decisions IAJhich were made by Fishery Products International last year and the year before, an attempt on their part to dump the sixteen plants No. 5..7 R3092

'···- - ·-~ ·--·~--- .. --~-· .. ; ... :__:.:._. _____ ~ ... ---- .. ~··-... :-· ---·.....;,. .......... -··-.J-~--·--·· .. -- -~ --~--- ·-----¥---·-~----..--...~ ............ _~-- -----·--·-.:.:..--.~--"'-·----·· they felt were uneconomic. Obviously, this shows that they were uneconomic; i l:.: s haws they have some major problems and they have not been addressed. These are the first four plants really that we are dealing with here, since there are two on the Burin Peninsula and two on the Southwest Coast.

I think it would be interesting to watch the other twelve plants which were involved in the investure, to see if they end up corning back to government for handouts. It seems to me that when we talk about free enterprise, from members opposite it is free enterprlse when you make a profit, and it is state enterprise when there i.s ~ loss, and then t..ue are expected to make up the loss. Unforlunai.:e1y, ·i.'l.: Js the way in which this government does business.

But let us hope the other twelve plants which were set adri.ft several years ago are in better shape than these four, and hopefully they will not have to come back. But with the price of fish going down, I very much doubt that. MR. WINDSOR: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance . r.11R. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would li.ke to inform this House that the Province has negotiated a loan in Japan as the firs·t capital market borrowing towards meet ·Lng the 1988-89 financing requirement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

WINDSOR : This loan, in the amount of $7.6 L3093 June 16, 1988 Vol XL billion Japanese yen, is for a term of nine years and is being arranged by a banking- syndicate headed by The Meiji Mutual Life Insurance Company and the Bank of Tokyo, Ltd. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Thank you . Coincident ~Alith h.is borrotAling, Mr. Speaker, the Province has also negotiated an agreement with the Bank of Tokyo, Ltd. whereby the proceeds of the yen loan will be exchanged for a nine year fixed rai :e Canad i.~n dollar obl i.gat:i.on in the amount of $75 million. FuturE!

J.nteres l: payrnents r.lnd repayment of principal will be made in Canadian do11a.rs, thereby eliminating yen exchange risk. The bottom line is we have borrowed $75 million Canadian. The interest cost to the Province on the Canadian dollar obligation is 10.62 percent on a semi-annual basis. The loan agreement and the currency exchange agreement will be signed on June 22, 1988. This financing is being raised under the authority of The Loan Act, 1987, which remains in force until the 1988 Loan Bill has been enacted by this han. House.

The unused borrowing authority under the 1987 Loan Act is primarily due to the stJbs lan-t:ial improvement in the financial position of tl1e ProutncE:~ in the 1987-88 year, which resulted in marked reduci:Lons "in i:l1e deficit and therefore the borrowing program. Accor·d.i.ngl.y, Mr. Speaker, I am most pleased to inform this Han. House thal the amount of $375 million as contained in the 1988 I_ o a n B 11 l. , t..u 11 :i. c h h a s a l r r:~ ad y b e e n circulated in the House, will be No. 57 R3093

--__ _ ..::~~ ~~ --- --·~ ... :;,_..._ __ ~ ... ~., · .. -.: .. -~ .. -..... _,;..._::....._~ .... -__ _..::._; __ ~·-··-·-· -- - - ~ & .... •r., .. :.:.:~L~::...~-:...::.:...--'...S.:.:..::..:...,;...;_•.i,_~~ ·:.... ... .:.... reduced by amendment to $300 million when the Loan Bill is debated in Committee of the Whole. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: I haue asked the Office of the Legislative Council. lo pr·c~1parr~ an appropriate amendment to the draft Bill and Reso1ut .ion. MR. ~\IELLS : Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, based on what the hon. minister says, it appears to be the equivalent of borrowing in Canadian dollars. The two faceted arrangement the minister has made, what I am not quite sure of is the real annual rate. Does the minister know what the real annual rate is? It refers ·J:o the rate on a semi-annual basis. Does he mean to say that the 10 .62 per ceni: .i.s the annual rate and it is payable s erni--ann11aJ.ly? MR . WINDSOR : It is payable semi-annually . MR . WELLS : Okay.

The only matter I question is whether or not the minister is correct in saying that he is still borrowing under the authority of the Loan and Guarantee Act of last year. We will check that, but I assume the minister is just borrowing in the ordinary course on the basis of the information that he has gtven us. Thank you, L3094 June 16, 1988 Vol XL Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. I am actually pleased to see the Minister of Finance has learned hi s 1 e s s on , or at l·e as t the 1 e s s o n of his pr·edecessor.

We [)JE!re tn a position in the past where the borrowings in Japanese yen, Sw iss franks, and so on, which looked vc~1ry attract.ive al: 5, 6, or 7 per cent when they were initially borrowed, because of currency fluctuations, in some instancE!S endE:1d up being a dtsaster, q1~ite frankly.

In this instance, we are pl eased to see that the minister has learned his lesson and is now borrowing Japanese yen but immediately converting it into Canadtan dollars, so that we are at least paying it back in dollars i:hat are consisten ·t u.Jith IAJhat we borrowed it with, and so we are not becoming international monetary speculators, which is I..Uhcti : we were in the business of before; when we were in that business before, we had some tremendous foreign losses as a r c~ s ull: . So I congratulate the minj ster on l·istening to the advice we gave his predecessor last Fall.

He has now learned hts lesson IAJell and, hopefully, will not get into these foreign adventures in the furture. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the President of the Council. No. 57 R3094

' ...::,;. . ~ ·.:......·~o.o~. . ._w~ ... .-=.:. .. : .. ~-t-.->.J--~ ... ~----------~·- .. ·-~- -- ·-··----~ ·.....:. ... -- ~ -""'---·~ ·- ·-... ...;·__.. -..__ ...... . ~ . .-._.......:.;..,_ ;.. .... ,.·~--:... : .... :.:~ . .::........:....::-- ....... -.~_::__..,..:...,.:.; __ _...;._-_....;:,.~. :_..:_., .0, --·- ·- --- · MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to present on behalf of the hon. Premier, but because of an embargo and a s irnul taneous statement being made in Western Canada at 2:30, it would not be appropriate for me to do it until that time.

I have discussed it with the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the NDP, and they have no problem. So at 2:30, or as close to that as possible, I would ltke to revert to Statemen·ts so that I can present the statement. Any time that comes out of Question Period will be added on at the end. That is an understanding, I think. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPf.AKf.R: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: On this side, of course, anything for co-operation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Before calling for Oral Questions, I would like to welcome to the gallery the Mayor of South Brook, Green Bay, Mrs. Mamie Newman, and her husband, Eugene. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. l3095 June 16, 1988 Vol XL MR. WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker ·. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Doyle), Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: The great debater. MR. WELLS: That is right .

We have be~en asking the minister and the Premier for some time to give us some information with respect to 1..vha t i. s happentng with the railway. I ask thE! minister n ot..v if i t i s true that t he government is prepared to surr(~HJder the long-term constitutional right of t~is Provlnce lo have the federal government pay the cost of ma:i.nl:a:i.n:i.ng ·wtth:i.n Newfoundland the Newfoundland portion of the n d L· .. ion d 1 l: rr.l n s port at ton s y s t em for an agreement that they will rna:i.ntc:dn the highiAJay for ten years.

Is that correct, that hE! t s prepared to s tj rre nd er thi. s for an agreement that the fedE!ral government will maintain the highway for ten years? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Ministe!r of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, as I have ind'icated to the member on occasions over the last couple of 1..veeks, negoti~tions on the railway with the federal government and with CN are at the critical stage, I suppose Jt would fair to say. I do not think it would be a.ppropr:i.ai.:F.! at l:h:i.s poi.nt tn time for me to talk about that negotiating process or what will be involved in it.

At an appropr·i.a-1:-e U.me -· again I repeal No. 57 R3095

• ·-~~~, ... ,.._..:.. .. : ... : .. .. ___ ,_~i_ ...... _:....~:......-~--- .... -~~;._,_._ ... _, ___________ , __ ,,,,··~·-.;._ ,_._ ... ... .... ... --- ·----·-.:.------··-~--·;,;,:.n.:.:.:~...:...,_·....:.:.-:::~;~ ..... .;__ . ..:..:.-~-~-:.... .. ~~ -..; .. ~~::.;.~_7 ......... ,.>. _ _._·_~,_.::......._....__ what I have said on occasion last week - an announcement will be made with respect to the disposal of the Newfoundland railway if the agreemen ·t is reached, and all members will be informed accordingly at that time as to what is involved in it. MR. WELLS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon . Leader of the Opposition. MR . ~~ELLS: the Is the minister at least prepared to assL1re i..:h(-:1 people of this Province that the government is committed to matntai.ni.ng the position that the federal government has an obligation to maintain in Newfoundland the Newfoundland portion of the national transportation system? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, again I have indica ted to the members oppos-:i. te that the Newfoundland Government will not be negotiating any agreement with the federal governmr:1nl: on the disposRl of the NeLIJfoundJ.and railway that does not take i.nto account the besi: interests of the people and the IJJOrkr:1rs of' i:his Pr•ovtncG. Co11p1cc~d in that, of course, are the concerns thdt the hon. member raises. MR . WELLS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the Leader of the Opposition. L3096 June 16, 1988 Vol XL MR.

WELLS: Will the minister assure the House that there will be an opportunity for full public debate before the goiJernment commitments the Province to a position on this issue? MR. ·DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . Uw Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Wr:1J.l., Mr. Spedker, I can tell tl'lE~ hon. member that one thing we are~ comrni.tted lo, and l:hcd: ts no ·t to have another Churchill Falls on our hands . -· SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: H~ can be assured of that, Mr. Speaker.

And he can be assured that this government, as I said a moment ago, has the best interests of the people of this Province at heart and that we will be doing everything to protect their rights I and especially the rights of the workers of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, he:1ar! Ml~. W . CARTER : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker I my question would have bee~n to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), but he ts not here. I IJJonder can tl1e House Leader (Mr. Simms) indicate if we have· an Acting Minister in the No. 57 R3096

-· - ... . - . -·- . ., __._,_:t_ __ .._~-"-- .;.~: ... __.j,. ~--. -- -...... ~~ ~,.:: ___ __ ... ______ , ___ ._, < -~ l.>~ ·l. -..... _ .. _ ,_._~-- -- . .,:. j n..~:.....--u-------- -. House today? MR. SIMMS: The member for Grand Bank. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my ques bon thr:Hl Js directed to the Acting Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Matthews). In hi.s statement today, Mr. Speaker, he outlined in very scant detail the leasing of the fish plants in Lawn and St. Lawrence to the new operators, but he did not rE!Veal any of the financial arrangements and cost to the Province.

I wonder is he now in a position to tell the House what will it cost the Province to get that plant back in its hands to lease to the Harbour Grace Fisheries? ~'llhat is the total cost? MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. tho M'.i.tTi .stc,~r of Career' Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MI'HTHFJrJS: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in the statement, there is a letter of intent and it was signed about 9:15 last night tArlth Mrs. Ting and the Minister of Fisheries, and yes, of course, I was there as well.

But tJJe are now, of course, into the process of getting the formal lease arrangement drafted and signed, and further details and specifics will become available over the next number of days, for sure we hope inside of a week. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKF.R: A supplementary, the member For Twilllngale. 1_3097 June 16, 1988 hon. the VoJ. XL MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the rn:i.n:i.s t:er: Is the mintster telling the House that he has now entered into a J.eas:i.ng arrangement with a new operator without first having establ:i.shed what it is going to cost the Province to get the plant back in its hands from the former operator, Mrs. Ting? Is that is what he is saying, that there has been no dollar figure put on the cost? MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of CarE!er Development and Advanced Studies. MR . MATTHEWS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there has been a cos 1: put on that.

But as I indicated earlier, in my first anstJJer, t:hose sped.fic facts wi.ll become very clear, not only to mf:~mb8rs of t:h~~ llouse, but VE!ry importantly as well to residents of SL. Lat.~rrence and LatJJn over' the next l.\Jeek or so . MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH : Mr. Speaker, by question tJJas intended for the Minister of Fisheries. Is the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies now the Acting Minister of Fisheries? I will ask the question anyway to the Acting Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker, it has to do with the recent storm on the Northeast Coast. Tt is my understanding that the department has now made No . 57 R3097

.... .:.. ---·~....:.·~~~~~-:: _.:....~ .. L·;~ ... ::...: -~-.:: .... ,.........: .. -.: .... ::.._~..:::.-..~~-~~-·- --~----· .. - .~ .J-- ---.:.-- :.:.~~_;~~~ --- -~ -~--"'·/-"' : •i<f.·=~~ --·-~ ·-- ·----- ·-- · its assessment of the storm damages on the Northeast Coast, which has substantially reduced the fishing capability of fishermen in that area. Could the minister now indicate the extent of the damages and what measures of assistance and rel·ief the Department of Fisheries plans to ini tta ·l:e? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. SJMMS: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the MJnJ.s l:er of FJ.shertes, i:hat Js 1:1 matter that the Minister of FJsh(:~ric,~s is actively tJJorking on. I understand it is not just the Northeast Coast, incidentall~, but there are other parts of the Coast that are probably involved here. I am sure the Minister of Fisheries will be able to supply the information the han. member is asking for in due course . MR. LUSH : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han . the member for Bonavista North. MR.

LUSH : I wonder if the han . the HousB Leader is aware of any representations made by fishermen jn the districts of Fogo and Bonavista North Jn partJ.cular, pojnting out that they disagree with the rather low estimate of damage announced by the minister a day or so ago, and inclicatJng dissatisfaction with the assessment procedure, and further indicating that some communities in the district of Fogo and Bonavista North have not yet been contacted for assessment? L3098 June 16, 1988 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: No, Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of it as Government House Leader, but I am sure the Minister of Fisheries probably is aware of it, and I will take notice of the question the han . member asks and pass his r·epresc,~ntation on to the Minister of Fisheries, whom I arn C(~rtr.dn IAri.J.l respond, as h(:1 al.lAJi:'.!YS does, in a very fair and falJOI~rabJ.e manner . MR. LUSH : A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: n final supplementary, the han . the member for Bonavista North. MR.

LUSH: t wonder can the han. the House Leader attempt to find out and to inform this House just what specific forms of assistance the government plans to give to fishermen and in what areas of loss? Is it going to be in all of the areas. where the fishermen experienced losses - lobster pots, cod traps, and lump nets - and how quickly will the government act, Mr. Speaker, to ensurE! that fishermen can fish in this fishing season, to salvage as much of this fishJ.ng season as possible? To quote Shakespeare, Mr. Speaker, 11 If ·i.i· .

I..Liere done tJJh t!!n 1 U .s done, then 1 twere well/ It were done 4u.ickl:y. 11 MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Cou n c :i. J.. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, there p 1 a c e n OIJJ , as · the aware I am sure. No. 57 are programs in han. member is There are cod R3098

.... :' ~~-~-:.:.~ ... ;._, .. _ •• ,..;;,, ... ~,A ••• ·~· ~~ •- -~ · -·• ·-~ __ • ...._ _ _.:,, • .,_.,,_·~ .• :'.;.,~ :.!..,~..;, ,l••-•• _.,.~.;;,,;~~·.'U;...s..l.'f:...,~,r, :: .. :.:..~:..."'. ;',#~4~ ... ~-~.:..~~:... :.....: ..... ~ ..... -.:.l. ~-.;,-~--.....:.woJ..,,..:_ ,.._: trap programs and lobster pot programs. These kJncls of progrr.~ms the han. member does not want the answc~r, T guess, bco~cr.trlse he ·i.s talkjng to his colleague now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. STMMS: Is the han . member ready for the answer? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes . MR .

SIMMS : I was saying there are some programs in place now . I think the Minister of Fi.sheries alluded to them the other day himself in response to a similar question . I will take the han . member's representation . I cannot provide the answer fo~ him, because obviously an assessment r.~nd an an~lysis, I guess, is presently be .i.ng underl :r.tken now by the Department of Fished.es. But I do understand maybe Uw mJnister, i.n fact, is on the Northeast Coast hi.mself l:oday. 1 do not. knouJ For that purpose, but I understand he is out i.n that area .

Bul T am sure the Minister of Fisheries, as he always has done, consistently done, has presented programs in this House that have been very positive for i:he fi.shermr:~n of Newfoundland and Labrador. And in this parti.cular case I am certain he will do a proper analysis and will respond, as he always does, in a favourable manner. MR . TULK : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Fogo . MR . TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for L3099 June 16, 1988 VoJ. X 1 .. the Minister of Labour (Mr. BJ.anchr.~rd).

On June G in this House this year, the minister, · in t'hlSI.lJF.!rs t:o Qr1estions c:oncer·ning the Chairman of the Workers' Compensation AppeaJ. Tribunal, Mr. Buffett, made the following str.1tement, and I quob~ his exact words, 'More recently and prior to h i .s appointment he' - referring to Mr. Buffett - 'actE!d on longstanding matters relating to collection of employer assr:~ssme:1nts.' I l~o.Jot~ld ask the minister what does he mean by 'more r·ecently'? HoiAJ long a time frame are we talking about? And does he bel.ieve i:hat this action might place Mr. Buffet ·t in a conflict of i.nterest pos ition? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour . MR . BLANCHARD: No, Mr. Sp~~aker . As a ma'tt.er of" fact I will be tabling under Ansr..r.Jers To Q11e stions the letter in question and the han. gentleman 1.1d .l.l be~ abl.o l·.o see For hi.ms e 1 f. 'More recently', meant, I think, i:he top ·i.cs t:hr.tL he tA.Jas talking about earlier that he had done : More recen tly he acted in assisting the Board in collecting assessments, adtJ .i.s"lng them rJo.Jith respect to matters of compensation 1 aw , · d e a l. i. n g wi t h the 0 c e an Ranger case, matter s of that nature. But, in any E!Vent, Mr.

Speaker·, the hon . gentleman will be able to look at the letter himself. I will be tabling it. MR. TULK: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplernen f:ary. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: the hon. Does the minister realize No. S7 the that R3099

-· ·-"''~-~-.. ·-~ -·-----·•-·--~--~ ..... -'-~'-' ·-·-· ...... --..-·-__ .._ __ .,.,,•,~-. .-.---!._ • .,_,......,...o...a;,~_.,~':._...._IW!~:""'~;~:...:.'I..:;;..:::!.::...~.~ .......... ~ ....... -c~r~ • ..::.......~ .... ~~·.,_,-4.,., ...... '..:o:.... ... --........._ __ ~., --c~--~---..-·~--

Section 21, subsection (4) of The Workers • Compensation Act gives the Appeals Tribunal of which Mr. Buffett is Chairman exclusive jurisdiction to dispose of all appeals from actions or decisions of the Commission respecting an employer•s assessments? Does he realiz~ that? And will he now ad rni t that if M r . 8 u f f e t 1: has acted recently in those actions that indeed he ts in a conflict of interest position? And I say to htm that I do not believe that that matter is addressed in the letter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, if the han. gentleman WOI.tld b:tke the time.;! "1:0 look ell: the legislation,

Section 21.1, deals tJJ1i:h confJ.tct of interest. 111\Jo member of the Appeal Tribunal may participate in the hearing of a matter in which that member has a direct personal interest or in which the Chairman determines there is a conflict of interest. 11 So if a matter he acted on, Mr. Speaker, prior to being appointed Chairman of the Appeal Tribunal comes before them, he simply absents himself from that hearing, and the Vice-Chair or somebody else steps in. That is precisely the same procedure we have operated under with the Labour Relations Board for two and a half or three decades. MR. TULK: A suppJ.emen·tary.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I han. gentleman quGst:i.on T. am poi. nt ou 1: to I:: he the h:i.m, L3100 in go'lng June 16, 1988 view of i:o ask Vol XL that there has been no Vice-Chairman since last November, and only recently has-the han. gentleman tried to get one.

I ask the minister, in view of his inability to deal with the questions that have been raised on this issue since April 19 of this YI0:1rlr, and :i.n v"i.ew of his fudging around with this matter, will he not notJJ agre0. l~hr.d: IJ.Je have a Select Committee of thj.s House to Jook -i_nto L:hc-~ whoJ.e procedure tAli th the Workers• Compensation Appeal Td.bttnr.tl, so that: the pr:~opl~~ of this Province, who have need of a Workers• Compensation Appeal Tribunal can indeed get the justi.r.e tJJh-.i.ch l:hey ci(o1serve? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, the han. the member for Fogo has some sort of a perverse interest in this ldnd of thing. He has already told me we did not need a latJJyer. He does not like the idea that there is an independent, neutral person as Chairperson of the Tribunal. He has suggested to me that we should have a labour person as Chairman of 1-.he Tribunal. NotJJ, Mr. Speaker, it has to be a neutral person. Tl-.: cannol: b(.;! an 10:1mployer repre s enta ti VE!, I would suggest to you, and -i_i: ct'lnnot: b~1 a union representative, so it must be a neutral. p~=:1rson. I -t~hi.nk, -that. "is where he is coming from.

He tells me I fudg~?.d aroLtnd wJi:h answers. The han. gentleman is frtJstrated. I haue gi.ven him cl:i.r10:1ct., good answers and I am going to give him the complete answers today in a letter that I will table. No. 57 R3100

.. 4 t."'-· --------~~---...._------- ~-.... -----~·------- ---~-- :--.~ ~ ... ~~---:....-;. -- ----~~ ............ :...:~...- .. .-.~ .. -:.; :.. • .::: .... ~ ... '.:.:.....t ·~:::::,;~::_.:._~_::.:.....__.:. .... _._ ..,....;..~ .. - ~.:!- -~~:.:....... .. .!....~ .:. -·~--- _.....;......~ .-...;..._ -~-- -:----- ... MR. LONG: Mr . Spe.ake:~r. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John's East . MR. LONG: I have been r·ecognized but T notice that it is 2:30 and perhaps by agreement we can revert to the statement by the minister. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the President of the Council. MR .

SIMMS: According to my calculations, Mr. Speaker, there are fourteen minutes gone by so there are sttll sixteen minutes remainjng in QlH:~s U.on Period. T thr :~ n k ho n. IIIHmbE:H' s oppo s t l~e for· their sign of co-operation today and hopt1 thi~11: il: lasl:s 111e11 tnto the rest of the decade. Statements by Ministers [Reverted to by Agreement] MR. SIMMS : Mr.

Speaker, this particular statement is being made simultaneously by Petro-Canada at this present moment in Calgary, Alberta, and on behalf of the Premier and the Minister of Energy, of course, I am uery pleased to announce that yet another delineation well on the Terr·a Noua Oilfield has prov~~n to be successful. SOME HON . MEMBERS : He:1ar, hear! MR.

SIMMS: Test results indic~te that Terra Noua F. -'79, tht 1 e-Lghi :h dtdinc o1a ti.on L310 1 June 16, 1988 Vol XL well drilled ouerall since the fi.eld 1.1.Jas cliscovercoH:l in 1984, and third in the current program, should bE:1 capable of producing 20,000 barrels of oil per day, on a sustained basis. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: The first test ouer thE! intervaJ 3331 rnc:1tres to 3340 metres 1evel flowed oil to surface at a rate of 8300 barrels per day. Th e s econd test over the interval 3268 metr es to 3278 metres flowed oi.l at a rate of 9000 barreJ.s per day.

ThE:~ Ulird tn ·l:erval, 32.:?.3 mt :~tres to 3242 metres flowed at 7900 barrels per day. The:1 total product:-Lve capabil.il~ .y, coupled with the fact that over 70 me:1tr~)~; of o:Ll -bC:1iH'i.ng reservoir· are present, indicates that this wel1 ranks wi.th the best of the Terra Noua wells and that it a1so compares fr.~vourably ~~Ji .l:h thE! bE!S t wells drilled at Hibernia. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE:1ar! MR. StMMS : I am extremely encouraged by thes e results, and I now believe that the 130 million barrE!lS of recoverable oil, estimated by Petro-Canada as an upside in thE!

Spr·ing of 1987 is, tn fact, present at Terra Nova, and also that there is considerable potential for more . The Sed co 710 drilling unit has now been moued to the Terra Nova C-09 u.Jell and I:C:1sti.ng at l:hat location will commence s hartly. If, as expected, resu1ts from that testing program are favourabl e, t-.ht1n Furl :hl:!r up1..uar·d rE:1Vi.sions i.n reserue estimates will be IJ.Jart·anl:ed. No . 57 R3101

••-· ~~- -'-~--w ___ J,------"----~-- •-:.._ •:·~. :..:_..._~~;.. ~~.:..__,.;_ · ;...,,. _.,_..__ ,_..._.:__ .,;~.l::.:~'::..:.:_:•,~,{ •. ..:.J..-.:.;:::.~:..2._ .... .:1..=:~:--2~~~': •' .:::: ·.:...-~-~ =:~ -~~i..~~ -..:..~:!:i.: -~~~~:..;.;....:. ~ : .. :.,-;..~,,:..:..,_·~·.:._ ~·----:. r. ,__..:. __ _. ... -~ .,_ Mr. Speaker, rest ~l-ts from Terra Nova E-79 well, together with those from the recent Terra Nova H-99 delineation well, in the opinion of the Premier, have gone a long way towards confirming the commercial potential of the Ter-ra Nova Discovery.

We expect that Petro-Canada will be in a position to make a firm decision respecting Terra Nova development during the first quarter of 1989, after preliminary engineering studies respecting various development options are concluded. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPF.:~KfR: The han. the Leader· of the OpposJ Uon . MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I am sure everybody i.n this Province i.s happy l:o hedr good test results from any well that i s d r i 11 e d off s h or· e , and i -1: · is good to hear these favourable test results as well.

This statement is, however, a little unusual, and I would be very interested in knowing that this was an identical statement made by Petro-Canada. Is that what the President is suggesting? MR. SIMMS: Similar. MR. WELLS : Similar. Okay . Is Petro-Canada saying I am extremely encouraged by these r(:~sul.ts dncl 1 now beli.e1;e that: the 130 milJ:ion barrels of recoverable oi.l e s i.:i.rna l:ed by Petro .. canar:l a as an upside Jn the Spring of 1987 is, in fac~, present at Terra L3102 June 16, 1988 Vol XL Nova, and also there is considerable potential for more?

Because iF they are, ·that is a most unusual statement for any oil drilling, or mineral drilling company to make, to create speculative interest like that. AN HON. MEMBER: You are playing with words. MR. WELLS: 1 am not playing just saying with 1.1.1ords. I am that everybody solid statements, IAH~ 1 comes good but I caution people in this Prov·i.nce not to mi:lkE:~ i·.:ht~ same mistake they made in 1979, when 1-:ht~Y rt1shed 0111: on l:ht=! basts of similar statements and made rnassi.,;e :i.nu(,~sbnents. I just caution people to be c a r· e F 111 abo 11 l: the s e s p e c u l at :i u e statements.

At the same timE!, we express our encour~gement at the results. I caution people to be caref'ttl about op:i.nl.ons expressed by the Premier; and that they go a long 1.11ay t.OIA.It-1rd confirming the commercial potential. Just a wonl of caution, Mr. Speaker! Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I think this is cln appropriate time to put in a couple of comrnt:Hll:s on IJ.Ihere IA.Ie are going in terms of oil development.

We have been he.~r'i.ng From the Premier· and from Mobjl and from others that we are poss:Lbl.y go·i.ng to get a deal together by the end of this rno n l: h . .J: n l. o o k i.n g a -1-.: 1: h P. s c->.11. in g price of oil and looking at the cost of developrnt~n-1: and so on, most people we have talked to, and most cornrn~~nl:ators, have sai.d that No. 57 R3102 __ ..,. ___ _ --- ·-- ·--- ....... ,_ , ____ ... _ .. ___ .. ___ _____ _ ,. __ ·-·· ----- --.-.---· --·- -·

.,.. ....... . _. .. .' .. . ... ! ... , .... _,,.--.,: ·-..-·- ·-·-· "--.:._ -._._.:.--....:.:: : ... ,..~ .. --- -----~-..:. ~-~;..;.:,.;,;_ ._ ... _ ... :;~_ .,.; _, .. ~-~:.~ i_y "-... -. -::. ~ .. ·:i:J!.. ·-- -~-· ___ . __ -~~ ..... .;... ... ~:... , ~- to develop the oi 1 field now, to sign a deal now is putting our·selves i.n pr·obably one of the worst positions we will ever be in, t:he price of oiJ. bc~1ing so l01.u and the political necessity of both l:he federal .:~nd t:he provincial governments MR. BARRETT : TeJ.l us about jt. sot.Jrce . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

FENWICK : Tc~1ll us your Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order·, please! MR. FENWICK: This government, Mr . Speaker, will bE:1 judged not . on tJJtlat t t has done in the Jast eight or nine years - MR. BARRE'TT: l:l : i.s tH!ry unprofr::1ss 'i.onaJ. (l.naudi.bJe). MR . LONG : V.lhy do you not: ·. bd .ng ·i.n yo11r OIJ.JI1 statement? HE:1 is responding to the other mird.sU1r. MR. FENWICK : This government, Mr.

Speaker, will be:1 evaluated no-t . on IJJhclt has happened in the last nine years, they are essentially a prologue to the development of this oil indus try. The Premier started i.n 1979 as Premier, and in the Fall of 1979 we had the first H:i.berni.a discoveries. How the Hibernia deal is si.gned, hotAJ the Terr·a Nova L3103 June 16, 1988 VoJ. XL deal is signed will be the historic evaluation of this gotJernment. tf thc-:!y gi.ve aiJJay ·the resources in much the way this House of Asse:1rnbl.y gave away the Churchill Falls Development back i.n t: he l 9 60s , t h f} n they wi 11 never, ever live it down.

I giVE! them IAJarni .ng _ noiAJ: 8 e u e:H· y,

t) E! ry r:: '" r e f 11 1. of IM h a 1.: d e:1 a l. s y o u s i. g n ! MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! There are sixteen minutes left in QIH:1S t:i.on Pc-:!d.od. The hon. the member for St. John's Ea~; t. MR. LONG: ----Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I am trying to remember where l;.Je were when we broke for the Ministerial Statement. I was about to ask a question of the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr··. Butt:).

I would like to ask the minister today if ~w r:: o 1.11 cl g j_ tJ e:1 t h e H o u s e information concerning the labour clisp11t :e .:~t U1e nr·ts and Cu1.ture Centre , w hi c h I was s u r p r is e d to ltnder ·s1:dnd yc ~1stc~1r·day the Min.is l:er· of Public Works (Dr. Twomey) has given olJer lo -l:.h(~ M~i.n.i.stc:H' of Culture, Recreation and Youth . C011lc:l the 1rt.tn:i.s l·.er gi.vc,1 11s some indication that he is actively lAJorki.ng l:oi;.Jard a resolution of this dispute? MR . SPEAKER: The han. thE:1 Mi.nistc~1r of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. BUTT : Mr.

Speaker'· that matter is still not resolved, because it is the opinion of a lot of people in government that if in fact we are going to go for a netJJ concession No. 57 R3103

--· ~ ' -··-~": ··- .. _ '- :~~·~ .~~.J~!:.~~!:;Z: L~·: ~-.~~~~ :-~~~ for the Arts and Cul.t11re Centre, then jt should be open to all NelJJfound1anders .~ncl l_abracloriRns to make an appropr iate bid. MR. LONG: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for St. John's East. MR.

LONG: I would like to ask is the minister· saying thal: govC:~rnment has rejected an appeal by thE! catC:H'er· uJho catered the visit. by the Prince to the Arts and Culture Cc->.ntrc->., to take the prC:~sc->.nt tc-:!nd(~r under receivership as an interim 1nr:~as ure and i:o go back to the tendering process at the end of th Ls coni:rac l:? Has i:.hat pr·oposal been rejected? MR. SPEAKF:R : The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recr0r.li:ion i:lncl Youth. MR. BUTT : No, Mr. Speaker, it has not. The matter is being actively worked on right now. There has been no firm decision made at this point in time, Mr. Speaker .

MR. LONG : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR.

LONG: In view of the fact that the workers at the Arts and Culture Centre have been on strike since March 21, and for the last two wonths have been told that they can expect a deci.si.on al: <:lny U.me, will the minister promise the workers who are on strike, who are about to picket events next week at 1~.he 11rts t'lnd Cul.l.:11re Centre Lo L3104 June 16, 1988 Vol XL prF:went i:hE:1m Fr·orn happening, unlike the visit by the Prince, that they can expect an rHlSI.!Jer within days as to their request and the proposal. which we have already addressed here? MR.

SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister· of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, I would sus pee t i:hat an answer will be forthcoming very soon. In i:he meantime I can say to the han. the member for St. John's F.:asi~. t:hat I, too, am very concerned about workers at the r:lrl:s and C11l.l:ur'"~ CC:Hltr·e IAJho find themselves out of jobs. I will c: ~n· t a i n 1. y no U . f y 1·: hem j u s t. as s o o n as a decision is made on this rnat:h:H', .~nd that sho111cl bE:~ com"i.ng forward in the very near future. MR. EFFORI1 : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKF.R: Thf-) hon. "l:h(:1 Grave. MR. EFFORD : Mr.

Speaker, Minister of Tobi.n), IJ.Jho minute ago. MR. SIMMS : member for Port de my questi.on is to the Social Services (Mr. was i.n his seat a He is listening. MR. EFFORD: The qu0s lion, Mr·. Speaker, is concerning a young man, Arnold Riche, IJJho has cer0bral palsy, ~.!Jho came in just a couple of days ago frorn Goose Bc:ly J.ook:i.ng for a job in St . John's, found himself in a lH1l~y d"i.fftctll.t: financ:i.c~\1 pos-ition, went to the Department of Social Sc-)rlJi .ce!> for r·i.nanc:i.al assJsti:HJC(:1, and the police were called in and ;::~, s k c-:~ d to l: a k e h i.1n auJa y . I lAid n i: to No. 57 R3104

- - - -~- -~ -~-.-:)<~- ·:...:: ,~J:~~,u.-;;...:: .~ ... j~~ -.. -.~~~ ~· .. _ ;._....;.x,....~~L .~ :~ ·z:~..::.. ,.:~:...-~ .. k:.--.:.---~ -~~-:...:-; -~::.;_.--=.,.., ___ . ___ _ - .- y ask the Minister of Social Services, and I am sure he is most concerned about this matter if he is aware of the matter - Do you want me to repeat the question? Mr. Speaker, he did not hear the quc~s t.i.on. The question is concerning a young man, Arnold Rich~~. who came 'i.n fl"Om Goose Bay just a couple of clays c-1go look·"i.ng for empl.oymc,~nl ·. 'i.n St.

John's, found hlmse]f in a vt,~ry dtff.ictl.li: : fi.lVHJc·i.e~J. pos"i.L:i.on, went to the Department of Social SE:~riJi.c"'~s for some ht,~J.p, lAJiri .ch they would not give h] rn, and the only thing they did was to call the police in and have him taken away. I r:l.sk l:he Mtnisb:~r of Social Services is he aware of this? Would he tell us what he has done to correct the situation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to get into specific cases tJ.Jith the han. gentleman, using names and all that. If that is the game he tAJants to play, he can play it.

To be perfectly honest 1.uJth you, Mr. Speaker, I find his question ·today s tmJ ldr to the-~ qtlCc~ s tJon s h~~ a l.1~1ay s asks. That is a little difficult l:o believe. MR. EFFORO: Mr·. Speake:~r. MR. SPFAl<ER: The hon. the memb(:~r For· Port de:~ Grave, a supplementary. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is not about an tndividuaJ.. This is another of the many hundreds of similar cases L3105 June 16, 1988 Vol XI. happening in the Department of Social Services. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A question, please . AN HON. MEMBER: I suppose you can list them. MR.

EFFORO: Yes, I can list them, and I udJ.J. :i.f tl·w mJn:i.:;ter· ~~ri . .J.l. l.ts 1-:c.:!n. 'f. ,:.J. s k L h to1 rni n i. st. c,~ r v c,~ r y c l. (~a r l y i. s this a new policy his department: .is adopU.ng, f·:hat r·dth~~r than helping people with emergency needs t.hc~y ctre going l:o call the::~ police in and have them arrested? MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. · the Minister of Social Services. MR. TOBIN: Mr·. Speaker, the,~ hon. member, who is the spokesman for the LiberaJ. Party, for some reason or other lately is aJ.way s trying to attack the-:~ Soclr:\J. Workc;!rS of this Province.

He is up here again today, Mr. Speaker, making statements which, like I said, I h a lJ to! d -i. f f i. c u J. 1~. y i n be l. :i. e wi. n ~ , that someone carne in and sat down in a chctir ~nd asked For social assistance, and ·the police had to be cctl.l.c-:~d to n~moVE! that pc~rson just because he sat down in a chr:t:ir '~'nd made a s.i.mple r·c~~quest for social assistance. Mr. Speaker·, the:~ Soc:ial. WorkE!t's in the Department of Social Services ar·e a ver·y professional, dedicated and competent group of individuals, and t do not think they deserve to be abused and No. 57 R3105

• ,._._: ,~ _ . ._.,......:. __ ~,.:~~;j~: ·~··;.·~~..'..-:.-.::.. . .:=;~_-.:;~ .' . .::.=::. :~ n'·., ~.:.~:.~&~.:..:.C:. -~~:... i,·.;:<.,.':.,;•.;:'::.......:.·~:.i... ... -:.:..::...~--=~~;...,~.A::.: ::·.:""' ,<. ;~·~:,:..:.~:.-.'i-~-~.!.;!:.,;..~: ... -..::.:.;..':_:_ ~-.:.:~.:"-.::: ./.~-.2..:,..__:~, •• .;.,:......._,_ • .:._ .~. • treated with such as the member for has done. MR. EFFORO: Mr. SpGaker. MR. SPEAKER: callous Port de action Gr;<liJe A final supplementary. MR . EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister just briefly that it is not the Social Workers but the minister and his department.

I ask the minister does it matter whether there is one individual or one hundred individuals involved? Does thc~~re have to be.;! one hundred people in trouble before they can be helped? Is thc .;!re no l an emergency policy set up in his departme:Hl t t.o ~H::~l.p people when they are in need? That is the question. N1.1n1bers do not rnat:! :er·. One individual is just as impo r1:<:\ n l·. as one h11 nc:l r·ed indjviduals. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Social Seruices. MR. TOBT.N: Mr.

Speaker, as a matter of fact when our Social Workers are interviewing people, they usually interview them on a one-on-one basis, not on a o ne-on-one-hundred basis. MR . GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the member for Wab"'rfor·d - Kenmount. MR. GULLAGE: n question to the Career Development S L 1.1 d i. e:~ s . 1_3106 June 16, l98H Minister of and Advanced \Jol XI . The minister has announced that the:~rt-~ Js a reorgardzat .ion of the department going on, especially IJ.Ji. 1: h r e s p e c: t i.: o p r o g r a m s o f l e s s than two years duration.

The start of thdt was the announcement that Cabot Institute would transfE:H' rni:lny of its programs to the community· co]lege system, but without adequate funding. Given the Fact that 90 per cent - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the hon . member please poS E! h.is question? MR. GULLAGE: of students indeed have to pursue olher thctn d university education, will the minister explain whether, in fact, additional funding was made auallable to · the community colleges - Carbonear, Seal Cove, IJ e J.l I s 1 a n d and s 1.: . J o h n 1 s - to ensure that the extra strain would be~~ accommodated-? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. i:he Mintster· of Car·eer Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr . Speaker, ther·e 1.uas a considerable increase this year in the budget for post-secondary education in the Province. With the five community colleges, particularly, the grants in aid to each community college was determined on a consultative basis with the president of the each community college, and they had a look at the figures before any final decisions were made.

The amo11nts of money i::hat have been granted to each community college, fr·om the fc~~E:~dback l~o.Je hi:J.V(~ got:ten since the budget was announced and !:.he ·monl.Gs 1_3ranted, ;:~re quite adequate to carry out a very good No . S 7 R3l06

-~=~-;: .":._:_~~ -: ..... ~ .. ~~~;j_,:} "''~;"~=: .. ~.'-'= :~,.~:.~.c.c:.::~~'-"''""~ '--~;.T .. ~~-:".~· -L.:~:~.::..:.:~z:;.,.;:~~~s ~£: .. :~_.:, __ :~~~-_;- ~.;:.:"~'."M~- -'··•-• ·---..!~---··-·-...-- ........ _ program for this fiscal year. MR. GULLAGE: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Waterford - Kenmount . MR. GULLAGE: Mr.

Speaker, having not answered 1: he f .l r s l q u e s t ·i. o n , 1 tdO 1.1 J. d 1 ·i. !< c~ to ask once again whether or· not, i n fa c i.: , IJ.Hc~ h d IJ r:l s (~ e n a cancel]ation of these courses, not a transfer at all, t'lnd th<'IL l:.l·w on1y t.uay students can access thesE:~ c o u r· s e s i. s b y lAic:'\ y o ·F e n r· o 11 i n g i. n pr:ivate colleges, and rather than pi'lying $500 a year they are ]coking at $4,000 to $5,000 per y Br'\r•? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister . of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr.

Speaker, that is certainly not the intent of the reorganization of our post-secondary education system. We are not i.n any way, as I stated on a number of occasions in this session, favour·'i.ng the private schools in this Province. The pr·ivate schools, the private institutions, are a fact of life. They have been in existence in thE:~ Pr·ov:i nee for over twenty years. They have grown fairly rapjdJ y. We fee] very confident, Mr.

Speaker, by having consuJta ·Ljons with the presidents of 1.: h e 1: h r c,H~ F>r' o IJ i. n c i a 1 insti i·~utc~s, the:~ presidents of the co1nrnuni.ty colleges, and +:he l1oarr:ls of Governors that are in place, that we:~ are offering t-.he stud~~nts of this Province and the students of this city a very adequate opportunity to pursue post-secondary education, training, and career goals . L3107 June 16, 1988 Vol XL We think, Mr. Speaker, that the changes t.ue have init .iated are in the • best interests of yeung Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

We are making changes so there will be some fallout, there has been fallout. We are eliminating courses where the graduates coming out have had VE!ry little success i.n fi.nd:.i.ng employrrH:~ni:. We-:! are trying to bring on stream a post-:-seconda;~y educai:i .on ~.>ysb,~m that . prepares Newfoundlanders and 1. a b r r.1 r:l o r· i. r:·Hl s f o r· F 1.1 t 1.1 r· c~! j o b markets. MR. GULLAGE : ~ final. SllppJ.c,1JflOnl:ary, r"'r , ~3pei:\kEH' . MR. SPF.AKER: A final supplementary, the hon . t:he member· for Water·for·d Kenmount. MR. GULLAGE: Mr·.

Speaker·, having stated that it appears that extra funding is available and thc-:!re lAd 11 not be a strain, will the minister commit t h a t i. f the r· e i s a s t r· a i n o n t he resources in these community colleges, that the eleven courses already cancelled will be supported in the var ious community colleges, and that in the St. John 1 s cornm11ni .ty college, where they have been eliminated E:Hl i:. i r E:~ l. y , +: h E:~ y lAd l.J . l:w r· l;d n s t a t-:c,~ d so that students can access these!

COIIrs es and not : have to P<'~Y $4,000 to $5,000 per course outside of the pubJ. ·ic sysi.:c.;!lfl 'i.n a pr-ivate:! school environment? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mini.sb-)r of CcH'E:~er· Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr . Spt~aker, there are arnple opportunities Newfoundlander and wants to pursue No. 57 for any Labradorian who any particular R3107

-· ....... _ ... :~:~::.::-Li,~,i~_._;:~~~·.::..;..:t.·.t ... :u.~~~;;, ~.:..;.,~·~~·:.a . .-~~~..:...:~~~_.:_;·-,~~~~~..:.~~-~-~:i::...,.;~~.:.:~-~~:.~;, .. ~ ,:_.._,~~~~-::_;::_:~~.~...~.::.:~..;:~.:.':,;.6~:.:_:~ ~:~ ~·:..-'<~-- .._ . .:,,;._..;__. , _ ___ - ~--·-· -- ··· ----- course in this Province. They are offered r.lt: vartotts campuses sixteen or seventeen campuses arotJnd the Province, at the provincia] inst.i tutes and at the universi. ty.

Agai.n . there i.s always a certain amount of emotion and reaction anytime there is a change, parb cularly any time that that change affects a person 1 s employment opportunities and we knew this. We went into this with our eyes open, Mr. Speaker, when we reorganized the post-secondary education system. There was a lot of consultation alJ. across the Province. We had white papers going on it, irnput fr·om the pl':wph~ of the regions of the Province and the decisions that we made with regard to the post-secondary <-?.ducati.on system in thi.s ProlJi.nce, we feel is a very good one.

A lot of the co11rses l::hat. are changi.ng, that have been phased o~t. or will be phased out ovtH' th~~ 11(~Xt yeclr or so, etre courses where the EHl r o ll.HH.;! n1: ~lr.~ s b tH:~ n lJ E:~ r y , lhJ r y low. And as weJl, courses where the graduates have been very unsuccessful. The percentage of gradual::es t~Jho havt~ b<:~en sttCCE:~ssful ln finding employment has been V e t' y 1 O IJJ • MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member· for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr . Speaker, I have a questi.on for the Minister of Social Services, if he is listening, Mr. Speaker. I know he is in the House.

Would the Minister of Social Services tell us what the policy of his department is concerning societl assistance recipients who have dtelbE?. tes and who are:~ i.n n~!ed of et refrigeration unit? Could he 1_31013 Jttne 1.6, 1.988 \)oJ. X 1.. tell us what the policy is of his deparl ·.mc~nl : i.n i~hc~ provi .si.on of these services? MR. SPEAKER: The h on . 1: he M i n .i. s 1:: e r o F So c i a 1 Services . MR. TOBIN: Mr . SpeakE=Jr, 1~.he pol .-icy of Social Services is to evaluate each case based on il::s o1JJn m0rit and l:o deal with it accordingly. MR. K. AYLWARD : Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, thE! hon. the rnemb(-?.r for· Stephenville . MR . K. AYLWARD: Could the minister confirm that i:he net.t.J pol i.cy of the Oepartment of Social Services in these cases i.:> to pr·o1J.ide i:hc :~m mayb( ~ wt th an ice box or a cooler of some type, i. n s tr.:~ ad o f a r e f d. g ~;:~ r a l:i. 6 n u n i t , because a refrigeration unit is not nH<,~d(~d, accord:ing to t.he Department of Social Services, for· the s 1-.ot•r:tge of tnsul.Jn? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Social Services . MR. TOBIN : Mr.

Speaker, as I hNve said the Departme:~nt of Social Services has no new policy as it relates to that . We have always evaluated each case based on its med.ts and dealt with it accordingly. MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: () fi.nr.1l. supplementr.1ry, t.h<.;! hon. the member for Stephenville . MR. K. AYLWARD: 1\Jo . ') 7 R31.08 ---r-- , ---• -•· -• .,•• ••-- ._....- •·-- - ~· -- .. ,. ...,. ~- ·-•- __ _ .., -·• - -- ~-- -... ·-- - ·~ _,., ••·•• ·-----r• -.--• ·•-· -.. -· ·--• ........ -•·• •••

• '0·.··· .. ::'. • •• ,..... •, -i~.:~-~ ~; .. ,L.::~~-- ·~·-_.:\ .;:,~.-:-~~. ~;,~:.:. ~~~~~. :~ ...... -~ .. _ .... ;;~;~-~ ·.:~~ -· .. ,.-._ ... ~: ~--:..~ ----~-'._ ~~-=· ~~ I have given the minister specifics of a case already, and this case has exactly the same ~ircumstances as the one I have put to him. Since I put this case to him in a letter· of Junt~ 1, the person has been in the hospital twice due to bad insulin injections. Now, ·could the minister tell us again wh~t the policy of his department is in r·elation +:o thest~ lflatter·s, IAJhich are very important to people?

Or c:l 0 IJ.H:! h d V E! t: 0 h d V t::~ a b y ·· (~~ l. (~ C 1.: i. 0 1'1 where you provide refrigerators to people i:o go val:£.;! for yoti? r., R . S P ~= A K F. R : TtH?. l'lon. the Min:i s ter of So cia] Ser'lJice~> . MR. TOfHI\l: Mr. Speaker, as I am sure the hon. lllelllber' for Sl:eph<~1nvi .1l.e appreciates, I do not pe~sonally interview a)l. of the people requesting social assistance, and I do not make the decision on each and every single case in this Pr·ovince. Mr· . Speaker.

T do not know what the han. gentleman is talking about when he tcllks about whether we give out fridges and stoves dur·'lng by-elections. That has no bearing on our department, Mr. Sp<-?.aker. Aga :in, Mr·. Speakl-?.r, I think it stands to tell us the type of an individual. the hon. gentleman is when hE! accuses the Social. WorkE:H'S of l:his Province of abusing the system during by-elections. Social Workers are non-par·tisan peop] e, and they are Lhe on<,~s tuho eva111l.:d:e 1-:he case, they are the ones who approve or disapprovl ~1.

T. think reqtH:1sts in excess of $1000 or $1500 that probably co111es to the administration or the executive of our dt1partmeni- .. Bu+: s11ch things as a refrigerator, Mr. Speaker, would be don~1 by othr:1r p<-?.opl.€:~. It is unfortunate the · the han. L3109 June 16, 1988 Vol XL .. __:__...;. _____ ... _. ---·-.. ·~·-- :. -·-----'···-· ....... ·-·- gentleman has decided to Soci.dl. Workers and accuse playing partisan politic~. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: attack them of The han. the member for the Strait of 8e1J.E:~ 1sl.e . MR. DECKER : Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Mi . n i. s tc~~ r of 1·: h l~~ :=: n v i. r' on ITI ~~ ITl ( M r· . Russell). Yesterday the minister i::dbJ.~~d c:l. cloc11nl~~nt. and +.:hrough selective readings from this rlocllrfH:1ni.: 1-1<:1 Lri.t~d t·.o IJ.Jh.i I:.E!IJJas h his ineptitude in dealing with the s (:H' .i 0 I I 5 "i. s s 1.1 e 0 r p c R $ i. n 1: h e Pr·ovince. Now, will the ministE!r t-)xpl.ai .-rl llJhy h€:~ ·is so Ltnconcer·ned about Page 2 of his document, llJh:ich shOIAJS c:-1 dra'i.nag~~ arer:'l as being several ponds or swamps?

Does he horws t.ly believ<-?., as the paper says, that those PCBs are simply a curi .osity for someone to observe, like -you wou1d at a zoo on a Sunday after·noon or· dot~s he realize how serious PCBs are? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. l:he Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSELL : Mr. Spc~1ab.~r, if Newfoundland and th€:~ people Labrador want of to look ctt zoos they can sit over here and lao k across the way, free of cost. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RUSSELL: Mr. ~:>p:.:1aker·, th€:~ issll€:1 of PCBs is a serious one in this Province, and nol:: onE! tl'll'l.t I l:ak€:~ l.i.ghtly.

The context in which I made those rt~marks y~~sl:c:~rdi:J.Y IJJrlS based on an answer to some questions that the No. 57 R3109

-- .. - --'"'"--- ~~~;;i..d.Ji...;. -~~;-~~ ~:.O..::::=.._s;, ·,.·~~· r~·.;.;;.~."·.J .. ~.:...i.:...::.:~_, .. .t...~;..:-~2-:.-..:..:.:-~~:;:;_\l..:=-.:-~- ·i-LL·;.::...~:-:_ .. ....;-..... :-.z-.::.d.':-..::.. · .. :J.;:ai::-.;::~...:.. .• ;_~-~ -~:..: ...... -~-·- ... ----~--: :.:._..:.. · ... ~.-..... _ ....... ~ --.....:. ,...:. -···~~-- __ .. -~---- ·- --- han. the member for Stephenville had post~d a fe1JJ clays ago, r.t.nd i.n that context. if the han. member read s 1:. he cop y t h ;:~, 1: I 1:: a b l Nl • i. l: was qujte obvious that certain l:esi :s had b: :!en done i.n An ar·er.t., a11d peopJe feJt that tests should be don~' i. n iHl o 1.: h E:H' i:\ r c.:! a r:'l n d 1: he y were curious about the results.

Ct~rl.:ai .nl.y, H1e i.ssue ol- PC!ls i.s not one to be taken 1 ightly. What I read yest erday was not taken dJrectly from the report but a lel:t.er, as l::i'w han. rnc-:!mber shoul.d k now • that wa s s e n l to t he c o u n c i 1 at St. Anthony. MR. DECKER : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary. member for the Isle. MR. DECKER : the Str·ait han. of the Selle The rn1.nister told the House yesterday that $2,500 would be required to help clean up this s:i te near St. Anthony. Well, a c t u a l. l. y • a c c o r cl i. n g l~ o I: h e document, it is $19,000. MR. SPEAKF.R: Order, please! MR.

DECKI:R: F.ven so, when the minister buries 1.: hi . s s i ba. c.'l·l: a cost. of $19 . 000 or $2,500, whatever it is going to l:al<e, can he assure the people of St. Anthony ·then, once it is bur·ied in mud, that th~1re i.s no longer any da .nger to pc~ople IJJho frequent this area, whether they are berry picking, hiking or whatever? Can he assure them that • as a res IJ l t of vis i. tin g this site • they wi 11 not end up t a k i n g chemotherapy tr'c-:!atlnent? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the· Min.i.st1:1r of L3110 June 16, 1988 Vol XL Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSf LL: Mr.

Sp C.:! a k E:1 r, .[ 1: hot .l g h t: t hf-H' 1:1 LIJE:~ r E! only two alarmists in the official Oppos:i .ti.on, b11l : noto~J, •JJe hCIVE ! number three. Mr. Speaker. officials in my dE:1pc.'lt'i-.nlE!n1 ·., 11.1ho arE:1 VE:~ry IJJE'!ll technically qualified to look at U10se LlrLn\.!js dnd to understand those things, PCB 1 s and the pob:1ntidl C:1FFecl:s th(:1r~~ could be, have advised me and advised the council of St.

Anthony Lhat there ±s not really a serious problem there. · I think in response to a question yesterday - it might have been the Ron. member who wanted me or my officials to take another look at the flou.J patterns or something doLiln there T 'i.ndicatc-:!d I IJJould certainly be very pleased to do ·l:hat. .T.f thi .ngs h<:tve changed since the report was done last y ~1 d r • 1: h (~ n c C:1f' l: a i. n l y :r. tAli ll. bE! willing to take another look at i. 1". . 1-l n d i. f p r· o b l. (:~ 1 n s h i:l v l:1 • a s I said. developed since that report. cerl:.'l.i.nJ.y IJ.Je ;:n·e pr·c:1p<:'lred to tt'lke "'look al: resol.tJing thern.

MR. SPF.AKfR: Order, please! Th(:1 l:.i.rne:1 For Oral QtH~!st.tons has elapsed. Notices of Motion MR. WINDSOR : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Finance. MR. WINDSOR: Mt'. Spe.:~ker. [ gi.VE:1 noi :'i.ce that I No . 57 R3110

·.;. ~ ~- .t..~ .~· /! '-': .... : .. ·.:· .- . -: •• ~ ;. ':o - . ·.:· ~~ .... ,__ ••• .:::~: ; r···...z.~-~~~~ \.~.C... .:__ :""cl.. r;~ '-·· .-;~ ~~-i.....6 ... .:.:.L.. ._:~_.:~~ ..;- ~ -~:_~ .. .:~ ---:.. -..... .-t • ....: •• ;.....:_ .-·.:~. _. -~-~ • .:..:. ... .-.,_ .... ,. __ ,_; __ .. ·-·-·--- · will on i:ornorro1.u ask le.:we l:o introduce a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act, 1973. 11 Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Development and Tourism. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to pr'OlJ .'i.dE:1 some ansto~.H:1rs l:o the hon. the member· for· Pot"t de Gl"ave (Ml".

F.:f F o r· d ) 1.11 h o a s k e d ·i. n Ul"i. :> H o 1.1 :; e yesterday and made numerous a c c 11 sa U. on s con c e r·ni. ng I: he adlJerttsi .ng i.·Wd prorno"\:.i.onr:tl tnitiatjves by thjs government with resp~ct to seafoods ~nd fish. .[f member'S rntght recall, so1ne 1.ueeks ago I brought to this House for everybody 1 s edification a number of the publications prepared in the department with respect to many of its initiatives. Prior' to that, I had also informed and brought to the House a number of other product information packages.

Numbered among them were a numb~:1r of packages to do with Newfoundland seafood, fisher·i .es, h:i.gh technology in the fisheries and everything else. J u s t s o t h E:1 r e c o r d i s a g a i. n clarified for som& of the slow l.eclrners on l:he o I: her· s idE:1, of which obviously the member who ~ s !< c~H:I l-: h e q 11 e s i:. .i o n i. s o n t1 , T. r:l rn going to have tabled so he can hr.we on hi.s dC:1Sk C\ C011p1e or Ul<o1 Centre of Excellence brochure which highlights the high tech L3111 June 16, 1988 Vol XL indttstr·y as i. t relates specifically to the fishery .

Newfoundland and Labrarlor as - it relates to the future is here, a publication which highlights the opportunities in all of our r~~source sector's, 1.1.dth a significant

section on the fisher·y. For· thE:1 consumer, here are two sets of recipe packs which are distributed at various seafood shows and everything else which clre uery much .in high demand. They have gone into production about a dozen times now . r have a very interesting pamphlet whi .ch "i.s i.nseri:E:H:I i.n -1-.o major international publications which o 111:1 "i. n f::! s ·i. n d Co1 i:i :~ i.l a l.l. of ~:he fish products utilized and produced in I~ h i. s P r· o lJ' i. n c Co~ 1.11.H-.Ii s o rn !::! s a rn p 1 e recipes.

Here is a glossy pr·od11 c U.on, Explore Newfoundland Seafood, anolher detailed explanation of fish handling, processing and rnc~1rchandising of fish in this Province which is disi:ributerl thr·oughout the Province and internationally, Mr. Speaker. Newfoundland Seafood, A Smart Idea is another colour brochure outlining all of the information as it relates to Newfoundland fisheries, it:> shell. fish, the creativity, and the protein valtH! of the pr·oduc-1 :. A 1 so done , rJJr .

Speaker , en francis, is a publication called The Fishery which addre ss es specifically the opportunities and the :i.sst1e:1s surrounding the fisher ·y in this Province. Here is a major pjece of :i.nfor·mr:ll. :i.on t.uhi.ch is di~>i::ributed very widely, Fish Products of Newfoundland and Labrador, Fish producers, aJ.l of the informati.on r e 1 a. 1: i. n g t o t.l·1 E:1 q u a 1 i. i: y , t h e No. 57 R3111

----· ·;;•·~···l.~~·~~·-:~:~ . ;·, ·::~ .:--~~h-= -)E-·-, ::· ~ ~~;:;_:.:~:~;~.;:.:;~~:~,,0:~ .: •. :.:·~~0.- . .:.:~: .~-~---'·'-·- :.. :..~'"----' ''-.. -;.,c.: ._~·-----·------·--- ··· · numbers, the catch rates, the amount of processing done, and the divers'lf-i.cation of the indusi·.l"Y· The Canadian Directory oF Fish and SeaFood Shell Fish Exporters i.s he:~re, of whi .ch d<-:~parbnenl: dnd th~~ Department of fj sheries c on i': r i. b 1.1 t: e s :i. g n i. f i. c a n i: l. y by listing, for international rea s o n s , i~ J. l of' t h :~ F i. s i1 f>r' o d 11 c e t' s and fish handlers in this Province.

WG hr:we also dorw H numbt'H' of E:~ditorial piec~;:1s. I have brought along a sample oF two, The Newfoundland Fishery, A Sue cess Story of the 1980s, fi .ve pag(.;!S of information relating to the new look in the fishery in this Province. The Newfoundland Caplin Industry says what has happened in that industry over the past number of years . Here i.s a fact shr:1et publi.shE:1d by The Newfoundland Statistical Agency of fi.sh landings t'Hld thE:1 increased value of landings as a result oF these tni.ti.alives. Also, Mr. participated yedrs in international ::> r (·) r::l !< r,1 t' I I~J E:1 in the last S e

t) E:Hl I: y -f·. h r l:H:1 SC:!afood hatJ e:1 five mujor and fishc.;!ry--re:1lal :c,1d hi.gh -l:c,1ch E:1X hi bi tion s t. hi" aug hou t the wor·ld, IJJh i.ch have tnc11rt'E:1d an intJE!S Lrn£Hll of $2 .2 mjlJions of dollars but, mor(?. importantly, Mr. Speaker ·, have attracted 269 exhibitors from the private sector of th ·i.s Province to participate in these major international expositions. Now, Mr.

Speaker·, if the slm.u learner, the member for Port de Grave, has difficulty 1.uith looking at this stuff, maybe I can have the leave of the House to r·am it, one piece at a time, down the 1.3112 June 16, 1.988 Vol. X I_ member • s throat. rha t way, he might absorb it or he might know tuhat i·:hE:1 heck i.t i.s 1..11e· arE~ doing here. MR. EFFORD: A point of order . MR. SPEAKER: 0 r· de r , p l e a s e ! A point of order, the han . the nii::HntH:1r for Por·l: cif:1 Gr'i:llJe. MR. EFFORD: Mr.

Spealcer, th,~ Mi .nisl :er' of Development just stood in his plac(~ and gr:lV(.;! an E:~xplanation of what they are doing to promote fish products in this Province, but at the end of his statement, Mr. Speaker, h(.;! said i.f he had the opportunity, by leave of the House, he would ram that literature, piece by piece, down l:he member for Por·t de Grave 1 s throat . I say to Oeueloprnf:~n-1: threat.

But bet l:er i r he material so 1\J t~l.uf o 1.111d 1 and see it, not 011o1n desk . the Minister of th~t that ts a it would be a lot 1.1.10 ul. d c i r c 11l R ·t e t hat the people of and of Canads could just have j t on his SOME liON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon . the President of the Counci.l. MR. SIMMS: Just very briefly, Mr. Speaker . There is no poi.nt of order . 1\Jo. 57 R3112

-,.,;,; ~ -~. ~:2~~ ~:.2.'~~·:::_:~:;_:._...;·'...:=.:.:~·-~ .. ..i:~ -"''4~-~-~.:...~· .. ··~::- .:;.;......:...:.:.....: ... ~ .. ---::..:.... ·..: ·"""·--.··~: .... _,._ -.~: • .:. .. .:... ... :p - ,_: .. ;... .-:...... ...... _...: -•. h -~~ ..... : •• ·--·~---~ ....... ·- ·-4 ....... __ ---- MR. fFFORD: There is. That was a threat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There~ is no point of orchH'. Actually, I did not hear that comment, and the r·eason for that was I had some doubt whether I had seen, ac-tually, a quc~sti.on about that par·ti cular topic .

I know it was asked yesterday in Question PerJ.od, but I do not remember si.gning any pi-lrU.cul<:lr note,~ tl·l<:lt that particular question was put dou.m for· an dnsto~.JC:~r. T tni:"IY be wrong, but I certainJ.y do not reCi."'ll. Sl:llrtE!. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A poi.n+: of orde:~r, the:~ hon. U1t~ rnembe r· for Fogo. MR. TULK: I am gJad Your Honour ruled on that. I was goi.ng to ri .se on a point of order, but we do want to hear· the infor·mat"i.on and therefore, I did not rise.

What we have seen her·e today i.s - and the minister may have done it unknowingly - the member· for· Pori:: de Grave (Mr. Efford) asked the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rid eo u

t) a q u e s t ion . There tJ.Ja s no not i.ce given that he tJ.Jas going to answer it at a later date. I caution You~ Honour, and I know you will take it under advisement, t hat if rni. n .i. s t e r s are go i. n g r~. o be a1lot.ued to stand up the day after on q u ~::~ s t "i. on s t h t~ y IAJE:~ r r::~ not as k C:H:I about, we can have a full-scale d{~br'l.h:~ goi .ng on by rni.rdsh:n·s j11sl: t.ul·,~~never thE:~Y choose to do so 11mll:~r l.·.hi.s dc:d"l.y roul :·i.ne or L 3113 Jum~ 16, 1988 Vol XL business. MR. SIMMS : ro th~t poi.nt of order. MR .

SPEAKER: To that po:i.nt of ord(:H', ·the hon. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS : No, Mr. Speaker. You can take that under advisement or whatever. I haue an answer to giue, thr.ll: ts r.1ll. MR. SPEAKER: There is no potnt of olnder. I do und("!rstand Uw po·i.nt t h~~ hon. member is making . The hon . the President of the C o 11 n C"i . l. . MR. SIMMS : Th~nk yo11, Mr. ~3pc-:!<:tker. Members opposite complain because they do not get answers to questions . When WE:~ get up to givE:~ i'lnSIAJC::~rs, thc-)n t:hE:~Y -· MR. MORGAN: Then they complt't in because we are giving information. MR .

SIMMS : So you cannot win, Mr . Speaker. Anyt.~.my, Mr, Speak(~r, I rise to respond to a question asked by the me rn b e r· F o r· M c~ n i h e k ( M t' . F r::~ m.~.d c

k) yesterday, of which I satd I would take noticE:~, tJ.Jith rl ~spect to the appointment of the Chairman of thi.s speci.al Appeal.s Board. Mr. Hollett was appointed about two l.UE:H?.!<s ago. He I~Jt"'S cons i.dered appropriate for the position b e c t:'lll s E:~ h e h a cl h r.u:l , a s I s a '"L d yesterday, considerable i. 1"llJ o l. \JE:~ HH:! 1·11.: 11ri . l: h l h {:! H a y c1.assifJ.cation system when it was f i. r s i ·. b t' o lll.!J h t i. n to e:~ f f t-:! c 1: f o r No. 57 R3113

-... __.,,.~·i~~.:..:.~:-..::,;::6;;~·: :::.,.;,.;. .. · ~ "h~.._:.:;..~_::...,_~:.;."':.._;.-~~=-~~-..;:.~~Z::~'?.'".;.;_:_,;~.:t~:s...:.:. ..... ~ ·-'..OOj;<.;:.:.~~---.. .• ..:: ... ·~~ .... : .... :..:.._~,;:::......w::.:...:~ ... :::.:.-'--......::.:. ..... .......;..:.:....-..:~..:......~.:.--._ .... _._ ~-=....:.--"' -;;"".· ....... --.-...~--·.:.._ .. _~:h.--·- .. management, during the initial classification process, by serving as a member on one of 'the rat:ing committees. He is a person at the deputy m i n i s b~ r 1 e v e l. . '( t i. s a v e r y senior level.

He is also an "i nd i 1Ji .d l.li:l 1 IJ.Jho, at Uli. s p.:~rh. c ul. c:lr point in tiTIIe, had the time to do lhe job . ·rhat was one of the djfficulties we had. We had nobody c::~l·. a deputy rn-i.n :i.~>Ler· l.c:wel. whom we could spare for eight moni:h~>. So IAH~ di.d d sc~arch and IJJ!::~ identified Mr. Ho] lett as somebody 1..u:i.th l-.he t~xper·i.enc(:~ •:lnd IJ.J:i.l:h -l:ht~ time. He .i.s rei.:i.rE?.d from l·:he publ.·ic service, as the member pointed out. -· He is be'lng paid, not a salar·y, but a per diem allowance. similar to what you would pay a board.

I do not have how much but it is a normal per diem allowance paid to chairmen of boards and so on, as set dotJJn by gu'i.delines. t do not know what it is. He is paid a per diem allowance For his work on th'i.s board. This type oF Financial remuneration is appropriate since a Public Service Pension is not c on s j d e red an an n u a 1 s a 1 a r· y . That i.s l~he po:i.nl :, t l:hi.n!<, !:hE:~ hon. member was trying to get at yE:~s'I:::O!rday. ThE-) Publ i.e ~:l!::H'lJ'i .cr:!

Pc:~ns:ion, of course, is a right IJ.Jh"ich hr:1d accruE:H:J i:lnrl ts pl'lJd fr·orn an account independent from the Con!>ol:i.dated Re:Wl:Hlll~?. FIJnc:l. He,~ i.s not considered an employee under the l.egi.slati.on i:hE:~ hon. rnernbet· was tal l<ing about. The nature of his work 'i.s such that the allowance is paid only when the tAJork is pt:'!rformed. In other words, he might be busy for two or three cJ a y s • he wo u 1 d be p a i d a per diem, and he might not need to L3114 JunF.! 16, 1988 Vol XL .... -- ..... _ ... _ -· .. -- .. ·-· "l... ..•• - . meet for another two or three days after or next week.

There are many other examples. by 1: he ''Ia y , I might t e 1.1 the h on . member, where this has occurred in l.:I'H:~ pasi~. 1.1.1here r·ei:ir·(~d public servants have been contracted to a specta1 job or special. work . So fi.nally I l:o cHlSIAit:!r the quest ion directly. this is no·t an unusual. prac .Li.cr:~ and lfiY i.n·for·rnai: .. Lon c.'lncl rny advice is that it certainly is not 'i. n lJ i. o 1 a -1: J. o n of T h e P 1.1 b l "i. c ~3 f'! r v l c c:~ Pension Act, as the hon. member asked yesterday. MR. BLANCHARD : Mr. Speaker·. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour . MR. BLANCHARD: Mr.

Speaker·, hon. member·s opposite have been as king a number· of questions s'i.nct:'! about the beginning of May, I guess. about the Appeals ·rribunal. In actual fact, Mr. Speaker, the member for Fogo hrls been really spor·adically regurgitating the same question OlJet· and OlH~r agai.n. '(have~ been answering his questions. The J.et:l:fH' T .:1m aboll': : to tc::~.bJ.r:1, Mr.

Speaker, actually I showed to th e h o n . +: h c:~ I . e cHI o r of 1-: h c,~ 0 p p o s i 'ci o n three or four days ago. and therE:~ were, in all. honesty and sincerity. some statements in the 1 r:~ U: e-n· IJ,J her· t:~ I IJ.Jd s not q 1 d. 1: t1 s u r e of the meaning, but I have not dJ.scliSSt1d thc:~lfl wi.i:h Mr. Buffet.-!:: yet. Nonetheless, in a spirit of sincerely trying to provide the information he tal king about, I am pr·epared to table the let t:er now, Mr. Speaker. MR. DECKER : A point of order, Mr . Speaker. No. 57 R3114

•• -· ~ - ~! .... .._ - - ~~- -- ~..:..~.~-;:c...::..; • .;;~ ..... ll-...::.c....-·-~~i::~..J:.:o:~:;:··· . .;·· ~ .:.:.,..~:.-~ .... ~--~:~ ........ ---: ;...:. ... ~-- _..:...:,,:.;.: ... ~...:...-_:_·~-:.-=.:---~ ..... ---···~ .:.~ ... -:._ -~-:. _._.._ ____ _ _.. {.; __ , __ .:, -~------ : __ ; .... , __ .... ·--- ·-·~ MR. SPFAKFR : ~ point of member for Isle. MR. 01-:CKF.R: I r·efer Your Paper of May whjch time o r· d e r· , U1 8 the Strait Honour to 18 of thi. s I had a han. the of Be]le the Order yei.'lr, al": written question on the Order Paper to the Minjster of Culture, Recreation and Youth.

It was a technical question, otherwise it would have be 101 n as I< e d in t h (.;! H o us~~ . It tAJa s concerning the spending of - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That is not a point of order. MR. DECKER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Petitions MR. Pf.ACH : Mr . S_pf:1i:lk( ~r· . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Housing . MR. PEACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I hctve a petition to present to the Legislature from two co1nmuni ties pr·esentl.y located in the electoral district of Tdnity Bay de Verde. The two communities are asking for a boundary change . I understand, Mr.

Speaker, as a pet .it.lon is taken .i.n a cornmunity, that the proper procedure is to bring it to the '-~~gi.slahtre, ~~t: whi.ch time the Legjslature will d e i:\ l. t.rJi. t h i. t b y p a s s i. n g i. 1:: '1'·. o I~ h (:1 proper department, which I 1Jnd101rsi:Hnd "i.s UlE! Oc-:1pr:...r+ ·.menL of L3115 June 16, 1988 Vol Xt Justice. Mr. Speaker, I have really -two p e l: i. i:. ·i. on s , b 11 t: b o 1·. h of l: h 1::1 rn are identical except for a word change "i. n f~ iH h of UH:Hn . So I u n c:l c-:H' s tan d and realize that my colleague, the rnernb(:1r for Tri.ni ty ·- R<'ly de Ver·de (Mr .

Reid) is going to speak as IAJE:1Jl, ami l:hc.;! trWlflb(~H· For· Port de Grave indicates to me that he wants l:o speak on the petitions, since they are related to the Conc(~1p"l:ton Bay ar·(~1a. ~3o I l.I.Jant just to present the two PIO'titions as they are, Mr. Speaker. The first petition reads in its prayer: the Conception Bay

WHEREAS comrnunity presently distr·ict of Verde, and of Capl ln Cove is in the electoral T r· "i. n t 1: y - 8 a y d e

WHEREAS Caplin gooyraphically closer Coue i:o is t:he · electoral district of than to communiti.es distr·Lct of Verde, and 1·. h c,1 r· 1::1 s 1.: of thE:1 Tr:i. ni.l:y WHF.:r~F~AS Capl"i.n Covlc' is more by the communities Carbonear Di.stri.ct, and Carbo near of the electoral Bay de ser·viced in the

WHEREAS nearly all of the children attend school at Jackson Walsh High School and Jackson Walsh Elementary in Western Bay, which js in the electoral district of Car·bone<-.lr. We, the residents of Caplin Cove, humbly p~::~ ti lion the Pr·ovincial Government to have the community of Caplin Cove included in the boundaries of the electoral district of CarboneHr . Tht1 f>(~ L.i.l::i.on, Mr ·. Spc,1<:tkHr, .i. s No. 57 R3115

.. -' - ... .. _.;;:-:J..;:.i...~: ... ::.·~.:..-;: .... i.~:...~~ : ~ ·::~~·~.i:r-:i~&:-~;;.;:..4.:;:~.: -.... ~.:.:.2--:·.._ ~- ..;.,- ... ;,: ... ~ .;:._ .. _: .. :.:.... .. L.. ... ....:::_~.;..:,., • .;.:. ·-~~-~_s___ ~=-- _:_:....·::....: -.. · ........ :...- _;._,_.,_-=-...;.~~~--':..:~ ::.:..:..:~~-~.:.~..:~ .:..~.:...:.. __ •..:....:...;_ ·~.....:...__. __,;._ ~ ... ,_ - •• -- · ~~ ---- - signed by 106 residents of th~t community. As a matter of information, Mr. Speaker, the l~st voters list used in 1985 showed ther·e wer·e 119 people on the voters list.

I am sure some of those have moved out since then, but you can clearly see that the entire community, pretty well 99 percent ., are:1 requesting thj s from the legislature. The other petition, Mr. Speaker, Ol" the othc-:!r pa1"t - MR. SPF~KER : Order, pJease! I L h ·i n k i. t IAJO 111 d b c,1 rno t' e:1 approprJale to deal with one petition ~nd then dGa1 with the second one. Some · han. members may IAJE\n t to speak on one anrl may not want to speak on the other. MR. PEACH: Mr. Speaker, both are the same except the nam~ is changed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave! MR. SPEAKER: Well, by h1ave . MR.

PEACH: By J eave, okay . The s~;;H;ond part of the petibon I hr.luc,1 to f>r'eseni:, Mr.

Spea.kC:H', rHads Jjke this: WHE"RFAS the Conception Bay cOHirnunit:y of I..OtAJ Poi.nl: .i.s presently located J n t:he eJ ectoraJ d i s I~ r i c 1.: o f T r i n i. t y B a y d e:1 Verde, and WHERf.AS wj th the exception of the corrnnunity of Caplin COVf:1, is geographically closer to the electoral district of C~rbonear, than to the rest of the L3116 June 16, 1988 Vol XL ·-------- ___ ..... ___ -_ ...... - ... ;--,. .. -· -· ... communities i.n the electoral district of Trinity Bay de Ver·de, and WHERE~S Low Po ·int the communities in is serviced by the electoral district of Carbonear, and W H f: R E A S t h (-:! c o rnrn u n i 1~ y o f C a p 1 i n Cove has peti tione!d gouernrnent to I:H:1 placed '"d.i:hi.n the boundcu·i~:~s of the electoraJ district of Cari:H)I"l(:1r:tr', and

WHEREAS we are .:~ p p r·o x "i. m ~~ l:r::~ l y one rn .i. l E! communjty l.rJ(,~, 1: h r~ t' E1 ~; j_ c:l 1::1 n 1: ~; of humb1y petition the GoiJ e r nrne ni ·_ I·. a hr:-llJE:' l he located f r' o Ill t h .'~ 1-~ l.oiJJ Point:, Provincial c ornrnu n J ty of Low Point incJuded in the boundaries of the t~lectoral district of Carbonear. I wi. s b to point. out , M r· . Speaker , that this petition is signed by twenty -three residents of the community of Low Point and on thE! last voters list in 1985 there were twenty-seven people oh the voters list.

So we can clearly SE!e it is the full support of the entire poptJla.i:ion of both communities. I want to point out, Mr. Speaker, l:hat both of t:hose cornrnun:i.tie:~s arE! requesting a boundary change on i: h r,1 g t' o 1.1 n rl s of g eo g r i:l p h y . 0 v (·H' the years both communities have b~:1en back and For·l:h, T guess, between the Carbon ear, Carbonear - fJdy de· lJer•df:!, Tri.ni.t:y -Bay de Verde and the old Bay de Verde di .sl:ri.ci:.

Tl~ is r.l rn~tt.et' of geography, I guess, that those co1nrnuni.i.:i.es .:1re on t:he Concepl.:ion Bay side of the electoral district of T r· i. n i. t: y -- R a y d e V H r d e . nw community of Caplin Cove is about two to three kilometres No. 57 lB116

-~-.:.£;&~_.:...c.~ ":.:;.::.:.:.:..... -: .. .".3, •.• ~ :.:.._ _ ,_ ...... ,_,., -~-.~-.~-~--- ""--·~- ~-•. ~ _ _. ......... .....:. --- · - ·--·· - outside of the present boundary of i: he C r.t r· b o n <:~ r.H' [) i. s ·I~ r i. c t , 1~1 hi. c h ~:~ n d s at a place called Flambro Head, th<:1 Sjeogr•dph:i.c bocJndar·y. Thr.:m l:h1:1 comrnurdty of Low Pojnt is appr·oxilllab~~l.y one ~~ k i1orrH~ l·.re along Roub?. 70, but off the main h:i ghway.

Both of thosE:~ cocnmuni.i:i.es are s e r u i c e d c 1 e a r·l y , by and 1 a r· g e , by the health services and by ~he education services in the Carbonear District. So on those gr·ounds, Mr·. Speaker·, both of those communities have asked to be relocated, I guess, within the boundaries of the Carbonear District, verses th e Trinity - Bay de Verde District. The nearest community to those, located ln the di.stri.ct of Trinity Bay de Verde is Old Perlican, which is about I:<:Hl ki .l.ouH~1b ~rs ;~I~Ji.-'IY ·· So , M r .

S p (~ a k <:1 r , I p r· ~~ s f.~ n 1: t h o s e tiJJO peti t:ions to the Lc-)gislature iHl d I -1". r·11 s L: t h '" L 1: he a p F>r ' o p r· "i. r.t 1:1~1 person, the M:inistE.~r of Justice, '"'d 11. , .:'1 ~; s o o n ,;~. s p o s s :i. b l e , d r· ,~, f l:. t h E:1 proper· 1 E:1 g :i s 1 at i v e b i 11 to s E:1 e that t~hE:1 IJJi .shc~s of l:he 1.29 residents of both of those communities an be accommodated. I would assume, if IJJe are going to I:>'~ ~w r e L n 1·: he L <:19 i. s l a t IH' 1::1 , M r· . Speaker, until the end of July, that that IJJi.ll dllow sufficient tlme for this act to be done.

Thank you. MR. EFFORD : M r . S pea k e r· . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1_31.17 J11ne 1.6, t9B8 Vol XI .. ~ .... -l.:.~ ~ .... ..;..._.;.~ · ...... ~.:_:_ ~-:.....:.... .. ~..;. •. -:... -- ··- ___ _....._ ..... -·~~ -· _., ...... ·--- ·· --· Mr. Speaker, the reason behind the pel :i.i:i .on l'.o change ·!:hose t!Mo commurd ties, P o -i. n l: , i: o Carbonear, Caplin Cove and ·Low 1: h 1:1 d i. s 1:: r i. c t of is not a matter of policy. It .is for the people of that 9 o t; 1:1 r· nm~o1 n 1.: convenJence p .:'1 r-1 :: i. c: 11 l a r· a r· P.r.~ .

The member for Carbonear is quitE• right . tf you look at the district of Trinity - Bay de Verde cl n d +·. h co?. d -i. s t d n c e F r· om one E! n d of the district down to where it ends noiJJ, i.t is a very, very long district, and many of the cornmuniti~~s rH't-?. separated by barren lands. These people on the North Shore of ConCE !pt 'ion Bay certainly, as the member for Cr:trbonl-?.ar just . . indicat(:1d, do avail of all the services in the disi :rict, the business ser·vices, the hospital services, and w h a l': c~11; E:1 r· . 1 1'. -i. s t h e:1 s .:~ m 1:1 1~d . t h t h E! school system .

But, jn relation L o l:i-1<:<~ L , +: 1·1 (:1 fa c 1: I: h a t: tl'w y a r t~ o n that particular shore, that sl :r·a'i.ghl: ~;hcH'E! · l".hc'!r'e, r:lnd Uwy go to the Trinity - Hay de Verde d · i. s L r· i. c: I. , · i. f y o '' 9 o u p a r· o u n d , geography alone is enough of a rea~;on for· thos e two cornmuni.ti es to be joined with the Carbonear d ·i. s 1.: ri. c t . I do not see any reason or any rH:19 a 1~. i. v 1:1 co mm c-?. n t s that anyone could even possibly make about 'i.l.: .

Some peopl e might say , 'Well, there may be a few morE! votes in U10se couple of communities.' It cannot be in this particular ca se because both distr·icts are held by the Progressive Conservative Party. That i.s only for this election past, of course, not after the next election. Certainly that will change . Mr. Speaker, I do not need to take up t.he t-i.rne of 'l:hi.s House of AssembJ.y to repeat what the MHA No . r, 7 rn 117

··-··-----~:..-~?i:i;~;_....a:.u;.:.:.,-:2:- .......... ~~ _ ....... _ .. .., __ ~~ ... ---. .-:;,; .. -.:.. . .:......:~:~ ... ~.: ........ ~-- ·~.:.... ,.~..:.:·.~ ~~~ ~,_:<.· .~., ~~- ~ ,- .. ::.-- ·-·- - --'---- for Carbonear just said, the Minister· of Housing, just to say that we certainly, on this side, can see nothing wrong with it, except to give our support. As we just said, it is for the convenience of those people and it is a practical and sens'i.ble thing to do . Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. I~F.:TD: Mr· . Speaker. MR . SPEAI<FR : ThE:~ hon. l.:lw IIH:nnbN' for Tri .nt l:y Ri:ly de Verde. MR.

RF.TI1 : Mr. Speol<er, J would like to s u p port I: he p r· a y <.;! r· o F I: h f:1 petj tion, wh:ich hos been presented by lhe Mi.nist:er· of Housj_ng and also the MHA for Carbonear district. Cer·tainly Low Point •:lnd Cc1plin Cove are indeed closer to his district. These people work together . They associate through recreation, chur·ches, schools, and everything. CertainJy, with the large district I have, there is noth:i.ng wrong with it in the tJ.JOr•ld.

I was very, vory surpr :i.s ~~d I.<Jhen I.<JB had thj s distribution of differen-t dis l:ricts l:hroughou+.: Netr.Jfounrlland arrd LoiAJ Point and Caplin Cove came i_nto thi .s parl:-i.cular di.st:ri .ct : which I now represent. I C f:~ r 1~. i:l -j_ 1'1 l. y I~Ji.'\ S 1'1 0 1·: i. 1'1 f c'\ I) 0 II r' 0 (' i. 1_: r.lt tha .t particular time, and I am SIH'e th.:'!.i: by goi.ng .inl.:o C,u·bonerH' djstric:t, they , ... dll certainly get f11l.J. co -opcC!ral:ion Fr·ow l:h: ,~i.r· member and be abJe to associate I.LJi .·l:h thE:1 9f~n<:1ral. publ :i_c i.n l·:hc:~ manner they always did. I thank you .

L3118 June 16, 1988 Uol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ht~ar, hear! Orders of the Day MR. SIMMS: We will do a couple of first readi .ngs, Mr'. SpcC!aker, on thH back of the Order Paper. Motion No . 12. Mo+:ton, l.:l-11:1 hon. l~_hf:~ M "i.n .. i. s LE.~r· of JusticE! to introduce a bJ]l, 11 An Acl: R(~SpHci:i.ng Tl ·w Pr·ol:e:~ct:i.on Of Human Rights, 11 carr·ied . (Bill No . fj9) . On motion, Rill No . (59) 1nead a t-·i.rsl-. i:"i. rne, or•clc:~rC:'d t'f~dd d S(~Concl time on tomorrow. MR. SIMMS: r-1ot.i.on 13 . Mo ti.on, !:he hon.

I: he Justice to introduce n c t_ To Arne nd The Act, 11 carried. · (Bill M-i.ntsi:E:H' of a bill, 11 An Co t' p or a t i o n s No .. 58). On motion, Bill No . (58) fir·st t: ime, order·ed read a time on tomorrow. read a second MR. SIMMS: We , .. Jill. do those fe:~IAJ third readings at the beginning too, Mr . Sp~~akf:~r . Order· 3, Bill No.1. On 1iloti.on, a b:Ll.l., 11

An Act Respecting The Observance Of f~E-)Iflf:~rnbt'dnce 11.:ty 11 , r f~ ctd ·~ l:h-i .rd tjme, ordered passed and its titJ.e be:~.:-~:; on l:he Or·d~~r Papt:~r. (Bill No. 1). On motion, a bill, 11

An Act To (lulE:Hld rh E:~ 1 n 1:·. er nd 1 F. con orny Commission Act 11 , read a -third Li_rnf:1, ordc:1r(:~d pas !;(~d and i.ts title be as on thE:1 Or·der Pape1n. ( Bi11 No. 16) . No. 57 R3118

-, .;,_:;,._ ..... :.;.· .. ,j._7-_~:~~:: . .;:_..;.;_~~i.. ·--- ·-· ..:~-'-' --- ·· ·~··-··_.:_ _ ... ___ ,, •••. ~,_~.:. _ ...... : .. ~ ...... ·-- -:~.--·~- On mol:ion, a bill, 11 An Acl: To Amend The Trustee Act 11 , read a third l:tme, or·d~H'<~1cl pi'l.SS(~d cHlc:l tl-:!> tj tJ e be as on the Order· Paper. (8i.J.J. No . 3). On mol'."i.on, a b"i.]J., 11 rln (lei: Respecting Judgment Recouery (Nfl.d.) Lt.d. 11 , r·l~1i'ld r:l ULi .rd Li.roc:!, ordered passed and its title be as 0 n 1.: h e 0 r• d cH' P i'l FH:H' . ( B i. l. l 1\J o . 1 7 ) .

On motion, <:l. bi.l.l, ''An AcL To Amend The Consumer Reporting A g e n c i e s A c t 11 , r· e d d C\ t h L r· d l'i. rrH:1 , ordered passed and its title be as on l:he Order· Paper. (Bill No. 5). 0 n rno t ion , a b i.ll. , 11 An Amend The Fisheries Loan re:1ad a th.ir·d t..imE:1, ordercO!d and its title be as on Paper. (B:il1 No. 13). On mot ·i.on, a bill., 11 An Amend The Schools Act 11 , 1: h :l r· d t: .L rn <-?. , or d ~~ red p i:l. s s e cl title be as on the Order ( 8 ill. 1\Jo . 7) . Act To Act 11 , pe1.ssc~1d Order Act To read a d.ncl i.l:s Paper.

On 1notion, d bi.ll., 11 /1ct: (lei: To rlmend The Education (Teachers' Pensi.on) Act: 11 , r·ectcl A l:hi.r·d t:i.me, ordered passed and its title be as 0 n UH~1 0 r• rh~! r p a fHH' . ( rn .ll. l\J!) . 3 ) . MR. ST.MMS: Ml". Speaker·, I moue that we moue .lnt:o Corrnni"I3:E:1r:1 of th1.:1 Wholc.-:1 l:o consider certain resoJ.uti,ons r· r:1 s p e c t t n g t h l-:1 S to c k !3 au "i. n g s P hu1 and Ventur·e Capital Plan whJch we were debating a couple of days C\go . On motion, that t.hc~ HoUS(:~ rc-?.soluc-?. itself into Committee of th~ Who 1 e , M r· . · S p c-?. a k e r 1 eft the C h a L r· .

Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN: I 3119 June 16, 1988 Vol XL .- ~----.- -... ...... ~.~:- .... .:~:..~ . .;: ~:...:.~ - ;.__, _..;._ . ~ -· -- - ••. ~ ·-·--·-- ---~---~- · --·.J ____ , _ __ .,.. _ _ .. _ ~· -. Order·, pl.f~as e! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thc~1 11on . the President of the Counci]. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairm~n. MS ct point of information, for the benefit of I: h (~! h 0 n . fTHo1 rn b fH' r 0 r· Ed g 1 E~ R i. ~!€~ r (Mr.

Hiscock), who has been r)lski.ng, IJJC:1 chr:l .i.ndicdte. a couple of days ago we were . going to cont'i.nUE:1 on U1e:1 f:i.nance motions today, uenture capital and stock saui.ngs, and i.f 1.1.1e hopefully get through those two resolutions, IAJE! ar'E:1 going t:o 111oue back -.Lnto t:he Whole House to deal l."Ji th the City of Mount Pearl Act.. We iH'<-?. hoping to do that. There are some peoplE! .ln the~~ gr'lllc·H'Y, I i:h:ink, who are interested in that bill. MR. CHAIRMAN : T h <:1 h o n . -r h F~ nw m b <~! r F o r W a bo~ r· f o r· d - Kenmount. MR. GUI .. LAGF: rv1r- .

ChCl 'i.r'flkHl, IJ.J~l(~~n T ddjournE:~d the debate the last time I spoke on l.: h i. s b i. 1. 1. I I b Co1 1 -i. {~ \) f:1 I Til lj 1 a s t comments were to the effect ·that i.n f,'lct i.t-. I,J,'IS pr"lt:l:.<~~rnf:!d uor·y much after the Quebec bill and that the Quebec experience has been uery good for that prouince in that the i.nit-i.atiue te1.ken has indeed stimulated the growth of companies throughout the province of Quebec. The people in that particular province haue certainly become inuestors in a uery large way and indeed that is the intent .

The main intent, of course, of this bi.l.l. is l:o ~~ncourage inVE:1stment by way of our own people who are t:r·adi.t.i.onal.l.y sauers, pr·obably per No. 57 R3119

~- .......... -... ~:_...;._ : .. ~::., ... ~f..-:. ... · ~-~-=~.,i;~~..;;.~::....::._._~ ... -:_:_;.,; ..... _.~ · •• .:.-~_;t..(__, :... ..... --~.:...~~:.:.:.: .. :.~..:..:.. ............. :.:=.;.. •. •.::.:~.:a..~.~.L....::.:i~~.:~-::... ... :..:.~.iJ.:. .... ~~ ... !.:......"' .... :l .-:....:...: .. :...:,.,, :..,_~~- · .... -,_;. .. --~ ._ ••. _...:_ --- ·- -- -· · capita greater savers t:h.~n most other provinces, but have a reluctance to invest.

The bill does address very well the first two categories of companies by including safe investments, a safe.way for people to become involved in the stock market. This is to be applauded because other·t.u:lse, I think, it would be very difficult to have people make a start tohJar·d .s investing in their own Province, and indeed for the very large category of peop1 e out there who ar·e IHH.u'i.J.1 i.ng i~o h:tke part: .in "' venture situation, are certainly more than willing to inuesl in Newfoundland Tel, Newfoundland L :i. g h t , o r· i. n d fH~ d 11 p s t r· E:~ r:-l rn companies such as Fortis Cor·por·al:.ion.

The orH:~ are.~ of l:he bill T ha,Je sorne concern wi t.h is the venture capital porU.on in l::hr:'\i:, I think, thE:~re are a lot of companies throughout the Province, and indeed a lot of sole pr·opr·ietor·ships 1.uho I.IJOI.t1d l'i.kl-?. to become incorporated eventually, who have a gr·eat deal of trouble accessing equity participation, and indeed, find it difficult to raise funds through the t rad i ·t ional sour· c e s, t.uhe the:~r it be the major banks, FBDB or the Newfoundland Development Corporation.

All of these sources for many small businesses are very djfficult to access because they are companies which are in ~he formative stage.

Indeed, without a track record, ~nd ,,Ji.tholll~ sorne ye.-:~r·s or pr·ofi.l : beh:ind them, a tr·ack r·ecord they can poi.nl: l:o and, I}J·i.i::h st .trfi.c'i.c~Hll: ar.sets and pr·ofit~ to point to, it i.s v:H'Y d'i.frtcrJll~. to r~CCl~~s~; TrlOI'lf~Y by way of l hE:~ tr·adi t:ional sources s r~ c h r.1 s , .~ !; 1: rnH n t ion F.! d 'i. n L3120 June 16, 1988 Vol XL p a r l:i. c u 1 r.l r , t h E:~ b a n k s , ''J h i c h a r· e , needless to say, more than r· e 1 u c f:.:t n l: as fa r• as :i. n u e s ·t, in g· in anything that is not fully secur·er.l. FBDB was meant to be an answer.

I suppose it is an answer for most categories of business and industry, but it does not make funds readily available to a liH·ge category of companies out there, as I mentioned, including firms that are not incorporated as r.JJell t.uh·i.ch ha'H~ gt'(~~at diFf'i.culty in growing beyond a certain stage b e c a u s E:~ , 1 s u p p o s e -· V (-?. n 't u t~ <:~ Capital is the right word for it - lJ en l: 1.1 t'l':!

C"" pi . 1·."' 1. i~l 1': l': hE:~ s t i:l g e they find themselves :in is not readi1.y .~v.:ot:i.l.i.·lble and, ·i.ndr~ed, apdrl~. fr·orn trying to count upon friends or peoplt~ l:hE:~Y llldY contr:tc l·: through their professional advisors, are lc-:~f ·l: i.n l:he t'(:'!al stt:u.~ti.on oF having to be stagnated in their gro1AJH1. 1 I.IJoul.d l.ikf?. l:o S(,~l:~ Uw gov~?.t'nml->.nt: pursue another initiative beyond ,,.~h.~t l:hE:~Y h.~we dont~, r.uhich is to be applauded, whereby these firms that, indeed, are in nE:~ed of substantial funds in order to grow and prosper, should have access through, perhaps, a subsidiary of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, which rni.ght bE:~ a sugg<:~si::i.on.

Perhaps a subsidiary could be set up with progr·arns such as IAJC~~ have s<:~en in this particular bill, programs be i. n g off e rt-:'! d t h r o u g h "" s u b s i d i a r· y of the Newfoundland and Labrador De,Jel.opment: Cor·porati.on t.hi:lt would address the needs of a category of bus i. n e s s :i. n t hi. :; Pro vi. n c e tJ.J hi c h is the category, I suppose, ln the f'i.r·sl~ f·i.IJio~ YE:'!cU'!i IAJhE:H't~ i.t i.s rnost difficult to become estab1ished. T. n d H l~H:I , <'1 :; I'll'~ k 11 OLIJ, businesses formed f :i. r :; t f i. IJ e y (~~ rH' S .

No . 57 80 pE:~r c~~nt of fail in the R3120 ---··- .. -- .... ------ --- .... ~----~-- - · ···· ·-·- -· ~-·· · -.-- ·--· ,_ -·

.. ---.- ----~··-·~·-·-----...:.. · ···-~-- ._::..::::.._ .~ ~ __ ....:..._ ____ ... _.,., .... --··--··~ " ----- __.__ ,~ ----·'-~- -~·-=- -... --........ __ _:""-' ~-~--- ....... ::.6 ... __ _._.., __ ~- ~--·~ ' ... -~ ........... -- -=..:.. ~~~ 4- --· ... : . .: __ • .. _-- .• ·•· -·~" ·- -· ......... ·-- ·· -· ··- That is where there ts a real void in Newfoundland right now - not just in Net,Jfounclland, bttl-. everywhere else - where it is d:i.fficuJ.t t:o fi .nd eqtlil:.y participation when you do not have A go 0 d t r· •::1 C X r e C: or· rl -1: o p o ·j n t 1:: o , and VE:'ntur·e Capital l.s not rE:~adiJy ava'i.J.abl~~.

I IAJO II l. c:l l. :i k (:~ 1". 0 S C (~ U·11o~ gover·nment, bE:~ cause it is evident •HJ,::II:, l:o cia h:~ anyiAklY, SOI.Il"CCo~!; of· capj i".i:l], othE:~r than the-?. gover·nrnE!ITl:: becondng i.niJOll;:~d, IVl!> nol: b~H~n ava~l J abJ e. I wou] d think thE! Net.uf o u nd 1 a nrl a ncl 1_ r;l br·ad or Development Corporation, who are, indeed, approached by a lot of these firms and rejected because they do not meet the cr·iteria, might want to consider setting up a subsidiary company w.ith a program tied into that company which could address these needs . In the-?. bi.11, Mr·.

Cha-irman, IJ.Je do not see any provision for d co~ b e n 1:: u r· e s . I a g r· t-:! e t h c'l !:. 1": h E:~ first two categories of companies d o e s ad d r e s s t h i s F r.t.i. r l y 111 1-:~ l. 1. , -i. n that tbe shares are relatively sctFe. Sui: T tAJOt.Jld h.we lil<Hd l·.o see an allowance for convertible rl c,~ ben i: 11 r <~ s "1: h a 1.: co tJ 1. d bE:~ converted, of course, to equity 1. ('\ +: (:H' 011 , b 1.1 1.: IAJO II J. d •'I J.l.

OIJ.J p 1::~ 0 p l.t:~ to t.ake 1:1lruost. no risk at a]l. p (.). 0 pl. (~ I'J h 0 i."'\ t' lo~ 1.1 S (~ d 1: 0 conservative saving by way of debt -Lns l:r·urnE:~nh;, such as sr.w:i.ngs accounts, annuities, RRSPs and term deposits, and so on, thst sort of person who traditionally is predominant in Newfoundland would be attracted to the idea of perhaps investing by way of a debenture, with the idea of converting later on to shares. That would have been a provision or I t.hink it could havt:~ been very helpfuJ.. L3121 June 1.6, 1.988 Vo 1. X 1 ..

I think the minisler already spoke to the fact that tax credits are notAl paid only yc·~drly. · I am ·not sure whether that could not be l. o o !< e d d t on a ~IIJ r.1 r t E:~ r 1. y basi. s as well, so people would bE:~ more IOHl C 0 II r• d g E:~ cl t-. 0 p a r Li. c "i. p i:1 tr>. , i. f t.hei r tax credits cou1d bE:~ ct t; a .:i. 1. .:'\ b l. ~~ o n i:'l q 11 d r l: <o~ r· l. y b c:'l s "i. !; <.·1 s indeed many people, particuJar1y h"i.yhc,~r· ·i.ncotnc;! l::~dt'nc,~r·s, P•:\Y tax on a quarterly basis . I: h r,~ c r· (:~ cl i. l: s ;:-1.

IJ ;_,\ :i. l a b l. ('! o n basis as t.uel] co1Jld bE:' thH i. r· Having t:ha t. '~ n i.: i. c i n <::J i'\ n d tJ :~ r y c o n u <-?. n :t e n i:: veiny For this group of investors. I wouJ.d recommend tha 1: Chai.rrrtriln, convertible shares as well, preferred could also Mr. and bE! mr;~de avc:l:i.lc;lbl.e to thi.s "lnit.iative later on, as weJ.l as debenturE!S.

Aga"ln, speaking to the same category investor who is out ther·e, who is ver·y conser·vat"i.ve, a preferred share offering and debent~rcs indeed are close to what the government 1 s initiative h<:-:ts :i.n mi.nd 1..Ui.Lh the-:! f·:i.r·st two categories of companies. So I 1£10 Ill d () r f 1-:1 r· {": h 0 s e ti.UC) s Ll g g 8 s t. i. () 1'1 s which might be looked at for the Ful: :t.lrt:~. PE:~dldps l·.ax fr·roH~ . bonds, t::\g<'lin, to the same category of person, a tax f r· (o~ (,~ b

I) n d :i. rl"i. l: i. o'l t ·i. u (:~ c 0 u 1 cl be considered. Mr·. Cl"h'l"i.t·rn;ul, l".h~~ :i.n:i.l:".i .d 1·:-i.ve l::he government has taken with the Venl·.ur·::! Cap"i.l· .dl f"r.lx Crf~d:i.t Progr·arn and the Newfoundland Stock Savings PlAn, I th-ink, will in fact be successful. I I.I.Jould like to see more than $3 rni l.Li .on dVailabl.e because that only amounts to perhaps a maximum of $10 lfltll:i.on to $13 rnill:ion over the first year or any given year. Given U1<:1L you ci'lnrlot hold your· shares beyond two years, Mr. No. 57 R3121

.. _____ ........ ;;..,_i:.,, ~j_,..,~:;....::...~~......:...:;.;~.:.._~ ;;;~ .. :..... . .J.!. ..... ;,.. ·:.w.;;_:~ :-·..:::· __ ....:_.. ~.~".;,-_.:,.~·.:.. .. :...".:.--~::..L.-:...·•~ ...... :.l .. _,~ -:, .~·~;;.~~::_,_.__.., ,· -- .. ~~:...· .;.l "-----~ ... .:.::.:.:...:~;. .. _ -· _,._ .. _ ··~~--- J .... ~-·-· ~· ' •• -- Chair·man, I wouJ d thjnk the interest in the progr~m. partjcularly the Stock Savings Plan , 1.uo ul d be such t h cl t. r hope that the government has in mj nd expanding the numbers of dollars ava:i labl.E:1 j n grants beyond the $3 million they have opened up with.

The fourth category mentions 11 emerging 11 company. There are not ·too many in Newfoundland 1.1.1ho meet this criteria, needing a minimum of 11 25 or more-:! $hcu·eholder·s i:lt. arms 1 ength 11 and including all those 1.11hich i:lr'E:1 ''publi.r.l.y tradE:1d. 11 We do not have any, I be 1 i. ~~ v c , IAJh l c h a r <:1 pub l. -i. r. , Uw r c-?. may be one or· ·two. Rut I do not t:hlnk there .:1re ~ny publicly traded. We have some

c) as ely held. 1 t:hi.nk l:hr>.r~~ may bc"1 only one or two closely heJd in cal~egory Four·. 3o '''e have Chaj rman, but a good it is b·i.ll 1 very Mr. much r:~ s t·:ri. c t.ecl i. n ca t:f>.gor .i.l"1 s one:1, l:•,Jo, and eV<:!n tht"8B and four t.o a very srnr:tl.J. number· of COiftpan.i.Hs.

Although peep] e wj 11 certaj nly l:al<e:1 advantage, i!lncl i+: I.Ui.l.l bl"1 a start towards having Newfoundlanders and l.i:lbri:ldorians jnvest in Newfoundland, which is the main l:hr·ust of what the~ government has in mind, and, of course, l:o encour·age, I would hope, emerging companies, which is category four·, 1.uh"i.ch i.s ·1-.he most important category, naturally, becaUSl-:! the other HlT'ee ci:ltegories one, two and three are certainly well on l:he 1.uay ·- Cal.egori.es one:~ and two, "senior 11 companies and 11 tnal:ure 11 companies ~~Ji.J·.h assel :s between $300 miJ lion and $500 m ll l i. on , c <::1 t ego r y o n ~=~ , .::t n c:l no 1: exceeding $300 million, category i:IJ.JO, ob1Ji.ousJ.y, the~;~~ I:IAJO gr·o11ps of corupanies art:~ v~ :!ry successftJl And rH't:1 IIIC~dni.: i:o I d~) T fll(:Hll·."i.ont:1d I en c our· age p eo p 1 e t o g e t s tar led j n 1.3122 June 16, 1.988 lJol.

XI . investing in their own Province and i.n rna.k·i.ng an offering of these particular companies, ·which ·are very safe, 1.ui.ll indeed get people started towards equity investment in Newfoundland and Labrador. But I think l:h~~ ultimate goal should be to have people invest at l.ei:lst a par·t of the dollars they have available for investment in nexpanding 11 compan . .i.es and 11 emerging 11 companies, categori E! s Ut r e e a n d F o u r .

We h au e v e r· y f e LJ..J companies in the Province that fit +: h e c r i t (,1 r i. a of c a t e g o r· y t h r· C.:! e of which, including those J.isted on 1: h 1:1 s t o c k e x dt "-' n g E! , T b c-?. l t e u ~~ tJJ e have only one listed on the stock exchang,,1, c:r.1h,1gory thr·E~c-:!. Tl·lc:!r·e are very few again in this c ·~ l:t-:1 g o r· y , 11 e x p .::~ n d :i. n g . 11 So I: he wos 1: impor·l:an t: ca tegor·y obviously is category four.

I bel i.t:~IJt-) th,,1 go'Jf-H'nrnt1nt' s pr· :i.or·:i .ty, as far as assisting a group of c o rn p a n i. <:1 s · i. s c o n c '"H' n E! d , h a s ·t: o I:H-:! category four ·which is companies t:hal: <H'l;! 11 EHncH·gi.ng 11 and trying to get started in the marketplace and VE:1ry nt11ch i.n need of equity participation, given the fact it is very difficult to access traditional sources if you are, as I mentioned earlier, trying to get started and particularly if you are ln your first five years of operation. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would hope that the government will expand this program beyond category four, which i.ncle(:1d i.s ur::H'Y much l::he focus of what they are trying to achi.eue and, by way or another bi 11, perhaps, at" an addition to the exisl:ing legislation, whether it be by way of using Newfoundland i.·lnd l.dbr·ador· Development: Corporation or some other arrn of 901J!H'I'1HIC:Hli: t:hdt C:rHl bE~ l.IS~H:J, providing a way for emerging 1\Jo. !)7 rn1.22 -·-- -....... , .. ··- -· ··--«···-- .. i- -··. -.- -----·· .. __ __ _____ ............ __ --· ·------ --

~~i.t:.,;....~; ..... :.. ......... ......:.~..-:~-..: !".... .. _.·~.....: •• - ..... -i.:~_.:..:~-__!..~.:....:.~__._.:~ ,~ • .:.:~:..:..: ••. ~.~.: -~ _ .. _ .. .:~ . ..;.-.:.:....·~ ........ companies that are not strictly in category four here, providing a way for them to access venture capital, tAJhether i.t be through a. publjcly traded company which could be s~1l: up tHH:Ier tht"' auspices of a Crown corporation, or some othE-H' Vt1h.i.cJ.t1 i:hai. : COIJ}d be IJS~1d in co-operation wjth the stock br·ob:H's. The:1 I'HH?.cl i.~; E!lFidenl :, rJtt·.

Ch.:-\:i.t'lfli:\1'1, "l o . go beyond cate~gory four and i. n d c~1 CO! d d d d r· ('! s :; 1··. h 1~1 c r· y i. n g n ~~ <::1 d that is out ther~ :in the COIIIHIUI'li.i:y. Tl: ·i:; (~1wi.clenl·: l".o anybody tAJho has spoken to people ().JhO ha IJ (:1 ·~: t•i. t-:>c:l 1:0 a_ C C l:1 S $ f'U nd S through FBDB or NetAJfoundland and Labrador Developmeni: Cor·por·aU .on, the great difficulty of meeting the cr·"iteria and getting through the red tape. MR. FENWICK: Companjes (inaudible) . MR. GULLAGE : A good question.

I th.i.nk T addressed it earlier, but very few companies are, in Fact, eligible for categories one, two and thr·ee. 3y my calcula 1: i.ons, I can see only five companies in NeiJJfoundJ.r .~nd H1.::1i: can nH:1et: t:h~1 criteria for the first three Ct:~ l:egor•:i.es, onJ.y (-' ·i.vr~1 COIOprHJi.C:1S "i.n NC:!wfoundland can, itr fact, be used b y .i. n v e s -1: o r· s I: o p ' 1 r· c 1·1 •'1. s 1::1 :; h a r· c-} :; ·i. n Newfoundland. So categories one, t1410 and -tht' (H·J Y'Hi .~ll .y do noi: addre:1ss t.h:is.

AlJ they do is p r· o v i. d E:~ .::~. s a f c~1 v c~1 h i. c: 1 ~1 1: o j nt.roduce peopJ e t.o the governrnE-Hl'l: Is progr·am, r:ll'ld t-.h.'l.t i.s to be applauded, but certainly it does not. do anyth:i.ng for· companies that are emerging and in ·the set-up stdge and in a situation tJJhere they very much need equity participatlon because of the jnability to access funds through FBDB or the Newfoundland and L3123 June 16, 1988 Vol XL . _,. -.,_ .. .:, ~.;..J-- '--'~ -:-....:. .p . .,~- --· ·--.: ........ · ..... ·--- ··--· Labrador Development Corporation.

As I was about to say, we all know pc~opl.e lAlho have bus:i .n~~ss ventures already underway or who are indeed -l~ry:i.ng l:o get ·. sU~rted i.n business or small industry, and the red l~dfH~1 Uwy hr'l.IH1 l:o go through through these two partjcuJar go v e r· nrn~:1r1 t •"1. g en c i. c:~ s rna k e s .it indeed very difficu]t to succeed .:-\ n d I: 0 i.-\ lJ i.d l 0 f l 0 oU1 f U n d s l: h r 0 U g h government sources .

IF you are an 11 t)fiH·H'g·i.ng" c:ornpr:H1Y, 1~1h"i.ch c.·.·lh~gory four· speaks to, or if you ar· e Olll:sidt1 UH~~ c;_~l:t1gor·y of "(~Hn(~H·gi.ng" companies, as stipulated he:~re, and yo11 .~U'( :1 much srnr.~l.lc -H', the availability of funds to you by IAlr.\Y of lr-:>ndi.ng from the banks and from other sources outside of gov(.;!rnmen't: i.s alrnosl·: irnposs:i.bl.e to access. So, Mr. Cha:lr•rnan, ln summation, I would just like to say I think it is very .i.mportant for the minister to consider going beyond category four.

Th(-:> i.nitiative in ·t:hls bill is to be applauded, but I do not th:i.nl< i.l. sp(~1aks to the m1eds of the small entrepreneur, the smalJ. busi .nessman I)Jho i.s tr-ying to get estabJished and has great clir:Ti .c1111:y rno1Ji .ng h:i.s comp;~ny, j ncorporated or not, to a stage of s 1.1 c c 1~1 :; :; b <:1 c iHI s c~1 f u n cl s f o r expansion are not available. I thJnk we need to focus E:wen-t:uall.y on l:hal: srnal1 company and on smaJl busjness, because in 1\)f:!IAifOIII'ldl.dnd rU1d l.abrador• l::hi.'l"l:: 'i.S certainJy where it is at as far as b u s :i. n ~1 s s ·i. s c o n c c~n· ned .

T tw v a s 1~. majority of business done in NeiJoJfoundl.i~nd and Labrador and the country in general, is in the small . bus.i.ness category, and we have to find ways of assisting the entrepreneur to access uenture capital moreso than we are doing at pr•es~~nt. No. 57 R3123

-· __ ._ --·-~--=---r-o.~:..- _ __::~ ~; ~ ~~,::.~· .,.:.-.::..,.~_,, ~_,_.,._ :._~ ·...:_·--J;_ _:..:-......., :..,.;_ ·-:.~ '"· .:.._:_. __ :.:....~ ~_;_._;_ ·...:.:..:.. ):.:..: _; :· -~: ~--:~ '---~~- ~~: '~:-: ___ .,..~,_..·.- .-._:... ___ ,..~~~ W1~ Cl~r'l:ai.nl.y :.>ttppor·t: l:hn bi.l.l.. WH:h t.he few s ugges U ons, Mr. Mi.nJst :er·, T hr'lVf!~ lllr'tde as -l:o addi.tjons whjch could be cons t de r· :-~ cl J. .'!1: e:~ r· , '-'"'=~ '''o 1.1l d J. i. k (-~ 1: o support the bjll in prindpJe and hope that the minister will act on these suggest:ions. Thank you, Mr. Chai.r·man . MR. FENWICK: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the membc.;!t' for M(.;!nihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I I.AJouJ.cl l."lke the M"i.ni.sl.f~r of Finance (Mr. Windsor), if he gets a chance solnet.~Jhr "H'E:~ along l:he linE:~, to add in a bit more of the data H1r.~l~ Wr'lS brought 11p by UH~ 1111:1rnber for· Waterford - Kenmount (Mr. Ct.lll.agr~). Ct: a.l.t.AJ<.'I'.J!> h(-~l.p~;, T f:l nd, whc~n you ar·c-~ de") a] ing w:i -1. h an absl:r·acl:, ,,,hi.ch i.s ;;'I p·i.£"11;1"1 or JegjsJation, to put examples in rHld l·.o !) (~!,1 hoi'J Hle:1 y IAJOt' k.

Wh~o~n T saw HH,1 ou U.i.ne of the bi11, I think, some weeks ago, we tJJent and hRcl R look <'It our research material and we came to somet.o~Jh<:tt the same concl.usi.on thai: the member for Waterford Kenmount. did, Hldt ther·e did not seem to be a lot of publicly tradc""d companil.;!S l:hat t.uould qualify as Newfoundland companies. You Sd id five; IJ.Jt"! looked at the listing that appears i.n some of the paper·s and there are about six or seven. There is Newfoundland Capilal Corporation, which I think would qualify, would i.l: not? ~N HON. MEMRFR : Yes. Ul/.4 June 16, 1988 Vol XL MR.

FEI\JWICK: There is Fortis and a number of ot:her·s that mi.~Y qll<'lli.fy ; T am · not sure what the sj tuation is. But, esst~nU.Rll.y, you IJ.Jere not talk i.ng about 100 or 200 companj es here, i. 1: IJ.Ja s a v 1-:"! r y s 111a 1.1. group . As I understand the legislation, H.: 'i.s nol: d matl~.er of go"i.ng and spending $1000 or $5,000 or $1.0,000 and buy:i.ng sharr:~s "in this company, it is only when a new sl.:ock issue is floated. So, it is on]y when new money is injected inl:o the company.

Of cour~;c->., i.F our objective is to get more new monc,~y in Hwre, th<;J.t ·.i.s l:he:1 only thing that really should get a tax c r r:~ cl i. 1: o r· 1~. h r:1 g r· d n t t h •~\ t. i s associated with it. 0 n E! 0 F HH~ 0 t h (:H' oH' (:!a s I: h a t I h cl d a question about at this point, then, was the category four companies, the 11 emergJ ng 11 ones, I l: hi. n k U10 y .:'1 t· t~ c: l. a !; s i. f .i. (~ d r1 s . T was not sure how many qual:i fJed, g·i .ve:~n t·:hc,~ cr·"i.l:or·-i.,:~ l:hf~t'C!. Di.c:l yo1 .1 S•'lY l:hr:H'(~ 1~1as only orH"~, as you thought? MR. GULLAGf: Yes. MR. FENWICK : Only one .

So, if we are talking about that, and UH~ member for Waterford Kenmount•s numbers are correct, and I assultle because he has more background in the area he has that ki.nd of expertise, we . are only talking about six companies in thai: par·l::i.c11J.ar St~c:l".:i.on, then this is a very ljmited one. Now, maybe there wjl] be a hundred of '1-:h1"1H1 nr:1x'i:: y1,~ar· and llldybr~ 'i:hat is the objective of it, but maybe 1-.hf:~ M·i.rl"i.sl-.:~r· or f·i.ndnC:~~ IJ.J"i.ll be No. 57 R3124

...... -... .;_- · •' __ ....;.._:_.._~~J..:.~~k -.. ~ ·~--- .--. .- ........ ~ ---- -- .-.~,-.:.._; _ ...... . __..!.:.. •• :...!• :.... .:!.~ .. ·--- :·'"*-- ·. able to address those particular concerns on it. Having said that, my concerns are in an entirely different direction. The situation, as I under·s tand Uw forma Uon of capital and the setting up of indusl:r• .i.c:tl l-:!nt~ ~rpr:i.sr~s, is I£Je hdiJF.! stock markets aJl throughout the IJ.Jorlcl. We hav~~ l:hH Canad ··i,a n Sl.:oc:k Market in Montreal, we have the Tor·on ·l·.o ~H:ock F.xc:I ·J,'lnyr~ dnd, T.

Hd nk, we haVC:! a Vancouver one, and .:'ll.l or l:hos~~ OPl :'t'dl :f;! IMi.l :h d CP.I~tain system of r·uler- t~o.J~li ch mf:~dns l.h:~ dc:·l:ui~l cotnp;:=~ni.es l.i.!;t i.ng there have to be quite forthcomjng in disclosing their financi~l s:it:uation, t:heir· plans, the way in IJ.Jhl.c:h the:~ bodr'd of di.r•r:~cLot"S dt'l:' affiJ.iated with the company '. T h :?. r e 'l s q 1.1 :i. i: e ;:1 b :i. t o f d i s c J. o s IH' e required so if anybody wants to invest in the NetJJfoundlc:Hld Capi b:J.l Corporatton, they can pick up an annt~al re.por·t.

They can see the performance of the company over the last number· of year· s, and they can make a judgement on whether the kind of business, such as printing and shipptng that it is in, ar·e ones that IJJi.ll bu'lJ .d up in the future, and then make an investment based on quite a bit of information whtch has some degree of c r· r-:! d i. i: C\ b i.l i. 1 ... y , s :i. n c e {: h E:H' :.:~ 'i. s an rlgE:~ncy that supe:~rvj ses the I.LJhol.e pror:r~ss. So Lhi .s IAIOIIl.d bH thE-! case for the ci:lt.E:~gorjes one, t.IAIO .::lnd tl1r't~l:~ Of l:hl-:~ IH:Hli:IH'l~ capJt_al.

The probl eru I see is t~o.d th catE~gor·y fottr· IJ.Jh.ich, t Udnk, r:W<H'ybody recogrd :zer- is t.he area, j f we are go i. n g to s e t~ ex p •'I n s i. o n , I: h r-Hl categor·y four should be the area i.n IJJhi.ch e:~xpans:i.on IJJoul.d occur. T am, i:lt thjs point, very much at a loss lo s t~e exactly ho1~o.1 it 111ork s .

For example, 'lf so111e ent .repr~~neur L3125 June 16, 1988 Vol XL were to decide that he wants to set up an emerging company and gets bJJenty-five, thi.rty, ·or· whatever number of investors together·, and i:hey decide to set up a company and so on, and it is not going to be l.:i.sted on the s toe k exchange, what certainty do I h .:w E:~ t h d 1: i. 1: i. s l. i. v i. n g 1 ~ p t. o generally regarded principles of r· ~1 p o r· 1'. i. n g , o f f c~ i.r- cU. s r: l. o s u r· ~~ , o f conflict of interest between the bod r·d and llll:~Hlb C! r· ~; so on? <::lnd A] 1 1: h<~ of exc:~cu l~.i.\Jc:~, l~o.Jh.ich, I l.il'ldlH'S l· .• :uu :l, r:H'f :~ mo .HH ·19f:~cl by Vf:!r 'Y ;, t r :i c t r u 1 e s u n d e r the s e c u r· i t i e s c:~xcho.~ng<:~S 1:hi.-ll: Op(~r.:-ll ·.ro! :~J.sc:~l~o.JhE!r·r~.

Although, T hr:-1ve been told th at the Vancouver S{:ock Exchange js a r·r-~.::~1. sndb~ pi.l :. You l:dkf~ yout" chances in there but, then, I undl:'!rstancl i:hdt . rn:i.ning and mor·e speculative stocks are exchanged there. The ques ti.on then becomes, sincE~ this is going to be a heavily s u b s i d .i L e d p r· o g r· d m , b o 1: h i n t a x credits given to individual ·i.nvc-:!s tors and i.n actual grants, which is the novel part of this parl:i.cular process, we then are contributing a lot of money in a s t~ <: o n d h a n d IAJa y to e n t. r e p r• e n e u r s settin·g up.

I think, we have an oblig;~+:i.on, i.f lllf:~ li~unch th'is program, to be able to tell the :i. n 'J c:~ ~; t: o r· s reasonable themselves assurance I: h r;! r· P i. s you are some not d~-~.::~J. ·i.ng 1'ri.l:h a b1tnch of snakc:~s or· a bunch of sharks here, and the Of>tH';:~t ·i.Otl ·i.~; r::IS i.l: :i.S p11'1 : rort£Jetrd and you have some feE:~ling of a s s liT' •Hl c ~~ UH:~ r i. s k !i y o 1.1 r.H' c:~ l: a k J n g are known risks, and not those 1~1hi.c:h yo11 ho::~lH ~ no :i.clc-:~d rlbor~l:: at aJ.J..

I am reminded about the case of thE:~ 'invc~!si.:meni ~ counsellor in Corner Brook who is currently up on cr:i.m :i.ncll. char·ges of a var·ious No. 57 R3125

~ .. ~ --~..:...:;.:..~~--~~.;;.~~~~~;i.\-.~-...:-~.~..::.~ ..... ·:: ........... :~-::.;. :-.. _:._ __ -:;:_ .__;;::.~-.;::..s..,... __ __ nature . I do not I.AJ,:~ni : l:o disCU!>S his cd minal c har·ges because I do not: t:hink th.:\1 : is ClPF>r'opr· ·i .• :~h,~. Aut I do k n mu, as so c:i atE:! d w::i t h · h :i s business enl:tH'f>r' :i.Sf:1S, t.Al•:\S •:\ l'li.IITibl~t· of indiuiduaJ jnuestors who lost qtl.il:(~ ·~ bi.t of mont1y, ·i.ncl .ttdi.ng, r believe, the SaJvation Ar·my which had several million dollars invested with h::im.

T h e r e r.l s o n T 111 e n t i. o n i. t: i. s b e c a u s 1-:1 t.his individual, tAJhen ~Je discussed l:hese quc-?.s ti.ons last YE!ar in thE! House with the people responsible for Consumer· r:l ff at r·s, tJJe we r·e to l.d that in this Province virtually anybody can hang out a shingle and call himself a financial counsellor·; can r·c-?.cei .Vl:1 money and reinvest it.

There is nothing th ls pr·ovincJa1 governtnent do~1s to ensur·e that any kind of standards a r· e ma i. n t .:d. ned :i. n t e nn s o f auditing, in terms of accountability, and in torms of the investors themselves having i.:ht~ fGel:i.ng r:\1 : J.edsi: Si)flld>Ody ·j s looking o v c-.. r the s h o lJ J d E:1 r of these pc-?.ople ''Jho •H'l:1 t.~!< i.ng your· lfloney .

So, t.AJhl ~n you look .:li'. l:h·i.s legis]atJon, in combination with thosr-?. r-?.lJeni·:!; whi.c h or;ct.tr•r·:?.d l.::~st ye-1a1n, I think, it is legitimate to .~ s !< , at t h i. s poi. n 1: , <H'l~~ we:! n OIAI putting in p]ace better safeguards fr·om thi.s gover·nment, fr·om the Department of Cons umer Affairs, so l:hc:d: if t.~Je ar·e l:ryi .ng 1-.o pu111p money into the c] ass four cornpan'les, lf tAle want to use l::hat number, that the small investors, who will be sorely tempted to take advantage of it, at least have some feel-i.ng they ar·e playing on a. level playing fie ld in which the rules ar·e clear·ly known, in which the risks they are taking are at 1 e a s t r l-:l a s o n a. b l c·?. r· i. s !< s , a n d i: IH~ y are not dealing with people who art:! jusl: prim;:u·i .l.y set:+. :i.ny up i.n order io take advantage of jt.

L312o .lllnt~ 1.6, 1.988 Vol . X I . <-·- · ·-- ......:.-.•....._ .... :.:.~~~- .. ...; o4. • .i ~-""' ...... --.~: •• _ ,..:..... -·- ·-· ·--- ...... --:.. •• ~.;.-~,. ............ J.--·----· ------ ~·--·- ·- ·- ·-·---- ·- nw t•er.tson T Sr:\y HlRl : i. s t:hi. s program js almost stolen, bolus ·-bollls I rr·om l-:111-) Prou:i:nCf:1- or Quebec ~here it has been in ~ffect r 0 r· I T Ul'i. n k I s i. X 0 r· !) (~ v e n y H rH' s . I am not sure of the exact length oF l:i.rnt1.

Al .l:hough i:hE!re are s u b t 1 e bJJi s t s o n i t , the c o n c e p t of lax money being ~sed to encourage investment is tl'le basic pr.tr ·l·. of i.l:. In the Province of Quebec they have found two things we should learn about in this particular exer·cise. The fir·st l:h'ing we should know is it was a tremendou s money pump. Thc:!r'e were ·.i.ncr·r:?.dible amounts of money which came out of investors pockets, people who normally saved. and was funnelled oi.n-1 -.o i.nvestmen-l:s of all kinds . There were incredible amounts of monr-?.y.

Thj_!) al.J.ot.~oJed a lot of businesses to be established in HH~ P r o IJ i. n r: e o r Q u t1 b e c a n d • q u :li: e frankJy, is partialJy responsible f o r· I: h l:~ f:HllJ i. r.t b l f:1 <?. c: o n om i c performance of that Province. So on that basis, we certainJy see UJ"i. ~; r'\ !) .:1 n :i. rl'i. 1: ·i. a L'i . v !:-) 1: h a 1: , s i. n c e it was clearly demonstrated to be efFe:1cl: ·i.lJf:1 in 1:1'11~ Prov:i .nce of Quebec, should be adopted here. On i:h. :'lr . br:~s-i.:;, l:he gener·a1 principle is one that we can quit e t~ asi.l.y suppor 'l:.

Hot~oJever, I l:hink tAle should l.c:1i:H'n from the problems which befell the program i.n Quebec, one of which was, since there IJJas so much money, especially towards the E!nd of the taxation years, being pushed 'i.nl- .o the system, i:hat ·l:he good investments became difficult to Find.

In Fact, a lot of ·this money went to charlatans, to fr·r:~uds, l:o ind.i.vi .dui.ill.s who had rea1ly no major standards, to people, q11il:c~~ fr·.:~nkly, t.AJho should not have gotten the money . i\ln. ~;'7 R3126 ··-- ·- ·- -- ;. - ---··--··· · · ... _ ·--··'"'--· ... ··-- ~ -r- ... - -· - ·-- -·- ...... ...... ...... - ... -·- ••••

.... ~ '"'. ~"'-~ - .,.~-"' ••••• .,., - ... .o..A-. , .. ~ ....!.:..;L...~.:.:___:.,M;; ,~_. .. .:-_ ·-·- ~-- -~-_:j::.,~ · .. v~ .:.- .. .-.. . ..:1..:.. _.._ _____ . ..., -~- ·""' - ·-· •' So, jn this case, the Province of Quebec had rnaj or proble111s e s p e c i a lJ y with the category four kind of -Ltluestmen+·_s, the ones not listed on stock exchanges and did no-t have the full disclosure that 1.uas available. I think that the Minister of Finance ;:.~ncl l·:hc~~ Mi.n:i.ster l)f Consumer Affairs and this gover·nment hdvr:~ an obl .:i.gati.on, 1.o.1hc~n ~1-t iruplernE:HJts something 1 ike thi .s, l:o gi.uf~ u:; sorn~~ saft·'H,;)Li