FOR REFERENCE ONLY NOT l'O BE CIRCULATED Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, April 25, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 60

April 25, 1973 The House met at 3 :00 -P Jr. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape !l'o. 1297 MR. SPf.AKF.R: The honourable the Premier. -NM - 1 HONOURABLE F. D. ~!OORES (PRDIIER) : !-tr. Speaker• I would like at this tim~. to give a statement on what has happened regarding the negotiations at the Come By Chance Refinery. Some seven or eight days ago, myself and my colleagues commenced contact with the company and the unions reRarding the two very different positions that have been taken. Without any ma1or statement.

Sir, I think it is well known that there was a lot of conflict and a lot of unrest at the Come By Chance site, I am pleased to be able to say today,to the best of my knowledge,that the situation has improved considerably after the weekend. There was.with the situation as it was, Mr.

Speaker. major jeopardy to not only the second refinery but even the completion of the first refinery, The reputation of the trade labour ioovement, the reputation of the company and the reputation I suppose of this province was at stake with the number of wild cat strikes and the number of legitimate strikes and the number of complaints that were coming forth from the project. We met with the company at several times,informally,last week and also with the union over the Easter weekend,informally as well. Yesterday I met with the building trades representatives.

That was for some eleven unions, with the exception of the pipe fitters who already had signed a major agr~ement with the company; the boiler makers who have a national agreement and which talks are also going on with and the bricklayers and cement masons who have an inter­ provincial agreement for the four Atlantic Provinces, The other building trades unions yesterday agreed with the conditions together with the company and, Sir, I have every reason to say in this House today I think that the men are back on the job this morning and by the end of the week 5891

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1297 .NM - 2 MR. MOORES: the projec'Fvill be in full stream and that as far as the government are concerned, we are very happy that negotiations worked out. The company-union relationships are on an excellent basis right now and I think the immediate problem is over and the contract that has been agreed upon is for the duration of the job to· complete Come By Chance I I am very happy to announce in this House today that, as far as the government is concerned at this moment, I see no reason why the first oil refinery cannot be now completed without any further labour problems. MR.

SPEAKER: Before we proceed further, it has been brou~ht to my attention and ·I would like to welcome to tl-.~ gallery today Father Groom,from Comer Brook. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Port au Port. MR. F. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, this petition is probably redundant at this time. However, it is a matter which has come to my attention, Jt vas presented to me by a number of workers from the Port au Port District who are working in Come By Chance or were working in Come By Chance until the strike took place. Fortunately, the strike has -now been settled.

The presentation of this petition is not meant in any way to throw bouquets at the Premier, however, we certainly do applaude the efforts in having the strike settled. The petition is from a number of tradesmen.who learned their job at the Linerboard Mill in Stephenville snd now skilled tradesmen and working at Come By Chance, are very concerned that that job is closed down. It reads as follows: "We, the ·undersi~ed of the Port au Port . District wish this petition to be presented in the House of Assembly. This is to see if the government can take immediate action to settle the labour dispute at Come By Chance.

April 25, 1973 T&pe No. 1297 NM - 3 MR. STi\f;C: "Our liv1·lihood depends on this n'finery. Tf not settled immediately we feel it will affect our future as far as building another refinery. Not only Newfoundlanders will be affected but larger companies coming to Newfoundland will feel the same over labour disputes. "I think it refJ._ects the general concern that is felt in all quarters of t~ewfoundland, generally, a concern that is felt throughout the western world,that governments, labour and management, have to come to grips with this very, very serious problem.

Labour strife has a very crippling effect on the development of any province, indeed of any country." So while the necessity may not be as urgent as was previously, it gives me great pleasure to present this petition to the honourable House and have it referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as the member for Port au Port pointed out, the prayer of the petition has been answered. It is a good thing to have the strike at Come By Chance come to an end. I am glad that the workers are back on the job.

Some of my own constituents are working at Come By Chance and I would imagine, ~ir, that everybody is greatly relieved and I hope that now the work will continue and that the first oil refinery will be completed on schedule. I think production is supposed to start up sometine this early fall. It is interesting to note that the Premier and some of his colleagues had to intervene in this strike and p,et the parties back to the bargaining table. Now, Sir, I wonder if the honourable the Premier will try his hand at Buchans and St. Lawrence. !-'!R. HOOPES: 'fr.

Speaker, we · are concerned about all the disputes that are presently taking place in the province. The one at Come By Chance we had a partic 0 ular interest in becuase it was a Crown corporation, The Provincial Building Company,that is actually the person who is the builder involved here. But that does not mean to say that we are not any less concerned about the strike, not just at St, Lawrence and nuchans 5 I>('\•· l., ., t.J

April 25, 1973 Tape ~o. 1297 ·rm - 4 "!R. ~OORr:S: but also U~avista, Mr. Speaker, which we are also very concerned about; even though the honourable ~e~ber for Bell Island neP,lected to re~ember to say so. These stril~es and these situations are, ~r. Speaker, of very prine concPrn to this government and every effort is and will be ~ade to try to bring them to a satisfactory conclusion for all t~ose people involvec. '~-. SPf.A::.ET>: Are there any other petitions? The honourable member for Grand Falls. ~1!' . . A. sr::ll0f.: :•tr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petion on behalf of some 7,000 ;~_ewfoundland residents, over 7 ,'JOO residents ,and I received another 250 approximately in addition to several letters yesterday in the mails. The petition is still being circulated.

Most of the residents who have signed this petition live in the Central Newfou.:.::!land A.:c.:i. :h~.3 petition was circulated by the Grand Falls and District Trades and Labour Council and bears the signature of residents from the following provincial districts; the Provinc.ial District of rrand Falls, Gander, Lewisporte, Green Bay, Hermitage, Fogo, Twillingate, White Bay South, Bonavista North, Humber East and Labrador. There are also isolated signatures from other areas of the province.

As I have just said,there are also many letter which have been received, not only by myself but I believe by other honourable members of this House,supporting this petition,in addition to the sir.natures which appear on the petition. The prayer of the petition reads as follows: ''Whereas the Central Newfoundland Hospital is a referral hospital for a population of approximately 45,000 people and

whereas the opening of Carmelite House will further tax the facilities of the Central NewfolDldland Hospital and

whereas the present hospital facilities have proven inadequate with a waiting list of several hundeced, therefore we the undersigned petition the Government of Newfoundland to take immediate steps to have the Central Newfoundland Hospital expanded to take care of the present urp,ent need of more bed space with immediate 5 ') ~ t 0 ., ~

April 25, 1973 TapP No. 1297 N'1 - 5 ,I t•xpan~ion to facJ lltntt• tl11• proJ,•ct<·d 11t•eds of th,• nr,.•n. I would lik, Sir, to point out at the beginninr, that this i8 not a matter of c~•ncern to residents of the irimetliate Grand Falls Area but,as indicated by the sir,natures on the petition, it is a matter of grave concern to a large

section of Newfoundland, comnrising some eleven provincial districts which are served by this hospital. When the hospital was built, its primary purpose was to serve the r.entral Newfoundland llrea. nowever.in recent years with the opening of highways to some of the remote areas of the Fogo District, Twillingate, Green Bay and JlermitaP-e, etc. this hospital, out of necessity, has become a regional referral centre but does not have the facilities to be able to cope adequately with the number of people who are seekinr, admission.

So, Sir, it is not a m~tter that c~n be taken lightly either from a political point of view or from a practical point of view. The need to expand this facility has existed for some time but until recently no constructive measures were taken to remedy the situation. Shortly after being elected as member for Grand Fall,s, I was made aware of the need for expansion. so over the last year or so the hospital board has been working closely with the Department of Health to assess the present situation and the requirements necessary to meet the health needs of the people in the future.

A study was undertaken by our government,which was completed March 31 past. Emerging from this study were recommendations for the expansion of the hospital with detailed recommendations for the type of facilities which will be needed. Sir, I am very pleased with the pror,ress made to. date and would like to commend the Minister of Health and his officials for their excellent ~o-operation. Now, Sir, we come right down to where this project will either proceed or be further delayed. On the basis of the study just completed 5e95

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1297 NM - 6 MR . SENIOR: and building plans which will be completed in the near future, based on recommendations of the study, our ~ovcrnmcnt will have to decide what the future progress on this project will be. In view of the co-operation received to date and the urgent need that exists in the area.with a waiting list of some 700 people,and the number of people that are being served and will be served by this hospital in the future, I feel confident that our government will place this project on its list of top priorities.

We in Central Newfoundland, Sir, have not been too demanding on the provincial government in the past mainly because most of the larger towns. in Grand Falls District were company operated towns and had most of the community amenities provided by the companies. I believe it is because we have been relatively self-supporting that the government has not placed enough priority on this area. The provincial government, until recently, has not had to do any expensive planning for this area.

This is the reason, Sir, although we are now designated as a special area, that we have received so little from the various OREE agreements which have been signe~ in recent years, although there are desperate needs which exist in the area. Things are changing and if we are to provide service for the many thousands that are dependent upon us, the provincial government will have to shoulder its share of the responsibility. I would like to point out, Sir, that when the present hospital was built, the trade unions and others in the area contributed some $800,000 towards the construction of the building.

I believe this is the only place in Newfoundland .where this was necessary. That may not be true - well it was certainly a major contribution. I believe, Mr. Chairman, I feel in any event that our people have certainly done their

part in providing this facility for the Grand Falls Area. So, Sir, I take pleasure in supporting this petition, soliciting continued government support for this project, and I hope it will receive the support of this honourable House and our government which I think it justly deserves. I request that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates.

April 25, 1973 Tape ~o. 1297 NM - 7 Tlfl'T DR. A -~~!r. ('finister of !'c-:il th ) Mr. Speaker, I would 1.ike to comment on the petition so ably presented by my colleague from Grand Falls. He mentioned the fact that the needs of the Central Newfoundland Hospital were . made known to me very shortly after taking office in January of last year, referred to the fact that they have an occupany rate of ninety per cent plus,which for any hospital is immediate evidence that there is a question of over-utilization.

I would like to point out also that an application for expansion of this hospital was made to p,overnrnent in 1969 but nothinp, had happened until 1972. MR. ROBERTS: When was this? DR. ROWE: In 1969, I am not quite sure of the exact month but the report s.tates very specifically that a request for expansion was made to government in 1969. I am.not sure of the month. I can establish the month but the important point is that there was an application made by the board to government, for expansion,in 1969.

In 1972 1 when we appointed the Federal-Provincial Health Planning Task Force, I asked them to look into first of all the needs of the whole Central Newfol.Dldland Area. They indeed made this the first part of the study and the Central Newfoundland area includes the area from Twillingate, Fogo, down thr?ugh the central core of Newfoundland, down the Connaigre Peninsula. This report was received by us some two or three weeks ago. The report is being studied by cabinet. It contains recommendations not only referring to the Central Newfoundland Hospital but to the whole area.

These are being studied and the board of the Central Newfoundland Hospital have been given the reconunendations as they have been made and apply to their particular hospital and the cabinet is at present studying the full report,considering the cost factors involved and it hns to be decided as to where this must be included in the priorities. But I think it is very true to say that government recognize 5 ;> n '7 (_ ,~; .

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1297 NM - 8 DR. RDl!F:: the need that the Central Newfoundland Hosptial has in providinp, th<' mnjor he11llh services for a lnrp,e portion of the province's population and rest assured that the report will be seriously considered and efforts will be made as and where possible to assist in the situation.

I would mention that although I said at the beginning the occupany rate at the hospital is running about ninety per cent plus, one of the factors against this is the fact that most of the cottage hospitals,indeed throughout the province, not only in that area, are running at an occupany rate of fifty per cent. So there has to·be some degree of liaison or some degree of co-operation if you have one· hospital running at ninety per cent and three, four or five hospitals running at fifty per cent. There obviously is a need for better communi~ation or better utilization of beds in the other institutions.

I am aware of the need in the Central Newfmmdland Hospital, I think government has not procrastinated, Government has in the past year affected the studr which has now been received and this will be receiving ongoing consideration from a sympathetic government. Thank you! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I could add a few words on this petition, needless to say my colleagues and I support it quite wholeheartedly. I think anybody who is the least bit familiar with the health-care needs of the people in the area served by the Central Newfoundland Hospital could do nothing but support this very strongly.

As both the gentleman from Grand Falls and the Hinister of Health said, the area is far larger than Grand Falls or even Grand Falls and Windsor. The Central :iewfoundland Hospital serves as the basic referral institution for the area I suppose from Springdale, possibly evrn Baie Verte on the northeast down through the Jlay d'Espoir and Connair,re Peninsula areas on the western side of Fortune !lay, and then all the way up through Bonnvista North, 589b

April 25, 1973 Tape ~:o. 12'17 :1'r - o ''~- JlJ')'fll'llTS: Fo, ·.,, Twillinp.:ate and_Gandc•r District althourh of c0urse the Gander Hospital has a· major role to play as well. The fact is that this peti~ion now before the Uouse is r,elcomed by us. Ju-:1;,;inr. from press reports, we hav~ sor.ie clouhts 1,hether it would ever surface .J.t the hands of the member for Grand Falls. I am delighted that his constituents have been able to get tc him at long last and that he has done the proper thin? by presenting it. I think they will welcome it as well. Now also, Mr. Sneaker, I think I should say a word or two.

I am not aware of when any representation from the board came into the Health Department. It may well have come in the minister says it did,I do not doubt it. I would ask him to look out for the correspondence. It may even have come durinr, my period as Minister of Health. I rather think it care~ during that of my predecessor. rhe stated time difference was in June of 1969. I know that I had numerous meetin?s,fonnally anci inforrr.ally, with the board of that hospital. The matter was mentioned but never in the way in which it has been gone at now.

Towards the end of our tenure as the government of this province, the matter had come up again because of two reasons: First of all the pressure was growing on the hospital; secondly and most importantly, the institution of the programme to develop Carbonear, Twillinr,ate, the new General and Western ~emorial had met, I think,what everyhody conceded to be the first priorities in health-care institutions in this province ~n~ we could then -turn our attention to look to others. Mr. Speaker, two things have happened,! suhmit,to change the role of the C:entral Newfoundland I!ospital.

It was built ten or twelve years aP,o which meant the planning was done twelve or fifteen years ago. I think twelve would be a good guess. It was built with substantial help from citizens of the area. The labour unions sphcreheaded it but all of the people in the area, almost all of them, contributed. A similar thinP, happened at Bell Island where people on Bell Island did contribute substantially to the Templeman or the building

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1297 w.-1 - 10 Mll. ROBERTS: which is now kno\om as ·the Walter Templeman Hospital, after Dr. Templeman. But two things have happened, Sir. First of all the area has changed, the roa_ to Bay d'Espoir or the road linking up Harbour Breton and Poole's Cove-English Harbour Area, the road systems p:enerally throughout Central Newfoundland h.ave chanr,ed and have been improved considerably. also the type of medicine has changed. Far more work now is being done in Central Newfoundland than would have been done there formerly. Both of these are steps forward; both of them should be welcomed.

The people of the Central Newfoundland Hospital, Sir, have built a first class institution out of it. Theyhave a first-class staff, medical, : nursing, the paraprofessional people and the institution provides a level of care second to none in this province. All of us agree on that, Sir, and all of us agree on supporting the petition and all of us will look forward with interest to the reports being made public. The board of the hospital have already made public the recommendations, so we know in a rou~h way - well not in a rough way but we know what the recommendtions are.

We do not know the thinking which went into it, we do not know the'ancillary recomll'endations but we do know the recommendations for the hospital. What is needed now, Sir, is not consideration, not further oneoine consideration, what is needed is a decision by the government. 59UL ...

April.25, 1973 Tape no. 1298 Page 1 - ~w The point of what r- am saying here today is that the time has come, the government should decide and must decide what they are going to do. If they are going to make the commitment to provide the facilities at the Central Newfoundland Hospital, that should be done. It is a matter of the government coming to a decision and announcing it. It does not need much further study.

As ·a matter of fact if a decision is not given within a period of weeks or months at the most, it will be a case of deliberate procrastination and the people served by that hospital can draw their own conclusions. I think the hospital should be expanded, Sir. The evidence I have seen indicates that it should be. Whether or not my point of view is the right one, whether or not the point of view I espo1Se, which apparently is the same point of view as Mr. Roosenveldt and the experts have espoused and as the board themselves advocate, the time has come for a decision. Let the government give us the answer.

Let the govermnent outline their policy with respect to this very important matter. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as the membe 0 r for the district, uny of the constituents of Grein Bay f:f.nd themselves going to Grand Falls Hospital. The main hospital in the area is the Springdale Cottage Hospital but the Grand Falls Hospital does act as a referral hospital and many patients from the Springdale Hospital have to go there. I would just like to add my voice in appro~al of the prayer of this petition.

I have received in the last two or three weeks, perhaps fifty or sixty letters of support, perhaps motivated by various media in the Central Newfoundland Area. So I have heard from just about every community in Green Bay supporting an extension to the Grand Falls Hospital. As the member for the district and receiving this much support from people there, I thought it incumbent upon me to rise in my place and to support whole­ heartedly the prayer of the petition. · HR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I also would like to join other members of the House in supporting this petition as it affects a great number of 5H01

Apru ,s, 1973 Tape no. 1298 Page 2 residents in the Fogo rristrict. Anything to improve the medical facilities for those people I would certainly approve and certainly en~orse. Much inconvenience is caused to the people on the Fogo Island and on Change Islands and other parts of the Fog~ District. I say Sir. in supporting the petition,that government would be wise to expand the facility to provide the people of those areaa which have signed the petition, to give them a long-awaited improvement in medical facilities. MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I too would like to lend my support to the petition in that representation did come in from Labrador. It did not state which district in Labrador representations came from but I feel as the other honourable members do feel that the people of the area should get a good referral hos?ital. We are very pleased in Labrador to have a good hospital at St. Anthony where the referrals are made from the different sections of Labrador. not to include Labrador W~t. I lend r:ry support to the petitio~ a:d I would ~lso like to add, Mr. Speaker, that I am not a separatist. HR. SENIOR: Mr.

Speaker, I have another petition that I would like to present at this time. Well I sat and listened for a long time and after hearing what everybody else had to say, I am better equipped to speak myself. I was not ready to present a petition until today, fortunately for us. I would have loved to do it yesterday because it was my day. As you know, I had a half hour speech and it did not even make the news media. It would have been to my advantage to have presented it yesterday. AH HON. MEMBER: Repeat it now. MR. SENIOR: Can I make the speech again now? Mr.

Speaker, this petition is not an easy petition for me to handle because it originated in Buchana. The petition was presented to me by the Student Council at Memorial University on behalf of a group known as "The Concerned Citizens of Newfoundland," who apparently pruented it to the Student Council on behalf of the citizens of Buchans. The petition bears some 650 signatures. 5:1u~

Aprii 25. 1973 Tape 110. 1298 Page 3 The prayer of the petition reads as follows: " We the undersigned do hereby request the government to am.end the specific amount of $1,400 to be borrowed by university students before being eligible for provincial government assistance. "We believe that the amount aforesaid is unjust, unfair and undemocratic to the potential university students in the lower and middle strata of our democratic society." Accompanying the petition there is a letter which was also written to me by a group known as "The Concerned Citizens of Newfoundland." I have never heard of this group.

I do know that the people .of Buchana have signed this i•etition and this is why I am presenting this to this honourable House. I would like to read this letter because it probably throws some insight on to the motives for this petition. "On our behalf the Student Council of the University are presenting you with this petition which contains the signatures of approximately 650 citizens in Buchans. These signatures were obtained from citizens nineteen years of age and over.

We would like to take this opportunity to say that,in the circulation, no political propaganda for purposes of persuasion was used; rather the effect of the proposed policy on present university student• and future potential students was explained in detail and respo11Se was immediate. Out of all solicited only five -refused. Their reason was given as the fact that they were in debt,but somebody else joined them. No further comment ve believe is necessary. •rt is not our intent to say that the people who willingly gave their support were of any political opinions nor do we intend to infer it in this letter.

Nevertheless people do not generally aupport petitions if they are happy with the proposed policy. We believe that the citizens 5 n n ,_. LI ) ~ t..J

April 25, 19 73 Tape no. 1298 Page 4 of Buchana are disgruntled with the future prospects for their children and wish it to be remedied : "As member for this district,we respeclfully request that the said petition be submitted through authorized channels, as representation of partial Newfoundland discontent~regarding government policy,to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.

"Not intending to stray from the issue, we would like to quote, vith reference to our petition, this passage which is: 'Those who propose to take charge of the affairs of government should not fail to remember two of Plato's rules; f.irat, to keep the good of the people so clearly in view that regardless of their own interest, they will make their every action conformed to that; secondly, to care for the w2lfare of the whole politic and not in serving the interest of some one party to betray the rest.' "We in closing trust that our government will acknowledge these signatures as hopes and aspirations for our future Newfoundland and not ignore them as ink on the paper with no say in their future.

We remain, yours respectfully, Concerned Citizens of Newfoundland." Now, Mr. Speaker, as a member of this honourable House and member for the District of Grand Falla, naturally lam concerned about the welfare of university students in this province. l am equally concerned that any programme of assistance should be equitable for all students regardless of their means. l must admit that looking at this· matter on the surface and listening to some of the debate in this honourable House concerning this matter, l was somewhat confused.

After l received this petition, in order to present it in the House, l thought l would do some research to become better info~d myself aa to what thia programme was all about. l would like at this ~ime to present the way that l see this programme, after the little bit of research that l have done. l might add that lam merely expressing my 5 00( .., . :.,r

April 25, 1973 Tape no. 1298 Page 5 own opinion and I would like to speak as an individual on this particular matter. The Student-Aid Programme is set up to allocate specific amounts for various needs of the students. For tuition all students in the province have an established need of $516 for two semesters at universitYi $170 for books. For room and board, a student who lives in St. John's has an established need of $540 and out-of-town students have an established needs of $760. Clothing, recreation and laundry, etc., there is an established need of $300 1 which is provided for each etudeut.

In addition out-of-town-students need $20 for bus travel and all students need $80 for local transportation. That amounts, Sir, to an established need of $1,606 for students living in St. John's and a neaa of $1,846 for out-of-town students. At present the Student-Aid Programme requires that a student borrow $600 from the Canada Student-Aid Programme before he gets provincial government assistance ~ In the case of a student requiring the maximum of $1,800,the balance of $1,200 would be an additional Canada Student-Aid Loan of $600 and provincial government assistance of $600.

In the final analysis, Sir, we have a Canada Student-Aid Loan of $1,200 and a provincial government grant of $600. Now under the new plan a student would have a Canada Student Aid Loan of $1,400, verses the $1,200 1 and a provincial grant of $400, which is, Sir, a difference of $200 anyway you look at it. How if we look more clo~ely we can see that many students could have room and board provided for them, who live within co1111111ting distance of St. John's.

Statistics show that moat students who live within commuting distance of the university do have free board and lodging provided for them, while out-of-town students would have definite need for the assistance or an established need for this particular item. Also a necessity such as laundry could be taken care of for •·student who lives at home. It would appear to me then, Sir,

April 25, l '• · Tape no. 1298 Page 6 that a studer• from out-of-town would have greater need and a greater necessity to borrow than those living near the university. Now there are other factors which must be considered, The means of the parents to provide is also consid·ered and they would be required to contribute to the total established need of the student based on their means. In fact a student who comes from a well-to-do family may not have to borrow as much but would be required to contribute more from his own pocket and would not in fact qualify for as great an amount of a loan.

But, Sir, I suggest that it is easier for a rich family to contribute than it is for a poor family to repay a loan. The problem as I see it, Sir, is not in the fact that the goverDJDent changed the regulations so that students would be required to borrow $1,400 from the Canada Student-Aid Programme befo~e they would qualify for provincial goverDJDent assistance but it appears to me that the programme does not provide equitable assistance for all s·tudents. But, Sir, there has never been any equality between the rich and the poor.

The solution to this problem is not found alone in a more equitable financial formula but also in the decentralization of post-secondary educational facilities ao that students in outlying areas do not have so great a need for assistance as they do today. Our· govermnent have already taken steps to remedy this aituation with its intention of providing regional colleges·in various centre  in Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition but I would like to point out, Sir, that the solution to the problem is not alone in reviewing the amount to be borrowed under the Canada Student-Aid Programme but I feel, Sir, that there may be some justification for reviewing the whole programme so that it becomes more equitable, that greater benefits are available to students with the greater n~ed and who have a leaser ability to repay. Further,to decentralize the post-secondary educational facilities in this province so that facilities are closer to the students and· we do not have as great a need as we have today. 5!JOU

April 25, 1973 Tape no. 1298- Page 7 I request that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it releates. MR. ROWE (F. B.} : Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and I have no hesitation in supporting this particular resolution. It confirms in fact some of the statements we made during the consideration of the estimates in the area of education when we brought up this whole business of what the new policr means to some university students in this province.

Sir, at that time we pointed out that a nlllllber of students, for instance students who need $800, have had a total loss since the Progressive Conservatives took over, of $400. This is what the h~nourable member for Grand Falls was getting at. I think the total loss to the students as compared to the total amount they had to borrow over and above what they had to borrow last year, ~hen we consider what has happened over the last two years, this is the important thing in fact to considPr.

For fl 11tudent who needs $1,000, his total loss now is $600 because the provincial government grant has been decreased by $300 and the amount of the Canada Student Loan that this etudent hu to borrow has also been increased by $300. Using the same formula, Sir, a student who needs $1,200 now has a total loss of -$800. Those who need $1,400 have a total loss of $1,000. Those who need $1,600 have a total loss of $800. Those who need $1,800 have a total loss of $600 since this present administration took over.

Sir, the important thing to consider here is that most students have a greater need for a two-semester year than $1,800. It ie more in the area of $3,000, $4,000 or $5,000. This is where this whole thing discriminates against those students who need it most. It 1• the sons and daughters of the low income, mid-income and no income families who are suffering under the present policy, Sir, and this university now is becoming an ~litist university. Everybody does not have the same opportunity to get to university,based on his educational 5!107

April 25, 1973 Tape no. 1298 Page 8 -~ background;

whereas industry,academic achievement and intelligence might have had something to do with a person attending university or his capacity to attend university. Now we are approaching the point where the size of a person's wall!t or the size of his father's wallet is a strong determiner of his potential attendance at the university.

Sir, the honourable member for Grand Falla has confirmed the arguments we have been using over the past several weeks with respect to this new policy announced by the Minister of Finance and we haven~ hesitation in supporting the petition whatsoever, On motion petition received. lfON. ·J. C, CROSBIE (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomc,rrow move the House into a Committee of the Whole to consider a resolution in relation to the raising of loans on the credit of the pn:,vin=e. This by the way, Mr. Speaker, will be a new departure.

It will be the first time that a bill will have to needed to be introduced into the House for the raising of loans on the credit of the province since 1966-1967 1 caused by a new Financial Administration Act that will be distributed in the House within the next several days. I also give notice that I will OD tomorrow ask the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions for the granting of supply to Her Majesty. HON. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker·, on behalf of the Minister of Justice, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration Of Partne-rahips Act, 1972." HON. W. C. DOODY:( Minister of Industrial Development) Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the honourable House to introduce a bill, "An Act 'Io Repeal The GoverDD1ent Of Newfoundland Marine Work's Agreement Act, 1966-1967,And lo Make Specific Provision Respecting Subsidies In Respect Of The Construction Of Ships At Maeystown Shipyard." 5!:Jftb

April 25, 1973 Tape no. 1298 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS Page 9 HON. H.R.V. EARLE (Public Works and Services): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present the answer to Question No. 355,asked by the honourable member for Fogo, prepared on the Order Paper of April 24. This is a seven-part question.

First of all, question (1): ''Has any space been rented by any agency of the government in the TCNn of Gander since January 18, 19 72?" The answer is yes. (2)"If so, how much? 1 ' The answer is 6,326 square feet. {3)~From_whom was this space rented?" There were 5,326 square feet from Lundrigans Limited; 1000 square feet from Burden Engineering Limited. (4)"What price are the government paying1" They are paying $20,398 .88 per year to Lundrigan& and $4,500 per year to Bu"':den Engineering Limited. (5) 1'What terms govern the contract between the government and the lessor1" Lundrigans, a five- year lease from May 9, 1972 to May 8, 1977; Burden Engineering Limited, a two-year lease from January 1, 1973 to December 31, 1974. (6) 11 Which agenices and departments are using thi~ ~rac~?• The Newfoundland Liquor ColllJllission are renting from Lundrigans Limited and the Rural Development are renting from Burden Engineering Limited. (7) "Were public tenders sought for provision of rental space to the government1*The answer is no.

I might add that the reason for that i, that space in Gander is extremely scarce. We searched the town for suitable space and regretfully we had to take some rather expensive space as indicated in the answer to the question. This was the only sui.table space available in the Town of Gander. We are presently negotia~ing a rental of 2,012 square feet of apace from Lundrigans,for the Department of Social Assistance. This has not been finalized and consequently no lease has been signed. That 1a the answer to Question No. 355.

Furthermore I have the answer to Question No. 362 on the Order Paper of April 24, asked by the honourable member for Fogo. "What was the coat to •overnment of all advertisements placed in Volume 1, Issue No.l of the publication known as The Town Crier dated February, 1973, being a news mag~zine published by Pumphrey Public Relations?u The answer is $182.

April 25, 1973 Tape no. 1298 Page 10 "Under what heading and to what vote was the amount of this -~ expense incurred as referred as referred to in (1) above charged?" It was charged to Heading XVIII, Supply and Services. BQN. DR. T. C. FARRELL (Minister of Transoortation and Communications}: Kr. Speaker, I ask leave of the honourable House to table Questions No. 336 through to 351 on the Order Paper of April 24, 19_73, asked by the hon. member for Labrador North.

I would like to ask permission of the hon. member for Labrador North whether he would like me to table those or go into them individually, Question 336 through to 351. Most of the answers are "no I s." I will table them. HON. J. c: ROUSSEAU (Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation): Kr, Speaker, I have the answer to Question No. 290. There are some three eight and one-half by fourteen sheets of foolscap here. At the urging of the Minister of Finance this morning, he thought it would probably be better to table them. I know the anxie~y of the member for St.

Barbe North in his private ~Pl/11 1 bill, 110 I will table them,because we place such importance on frivate Members' Day, for the honourable members across the Bouse. BON. T. P. HICKEY: (Minister of P10vincial Affairs): Kr. Speaker, I have some answers. Would the honourable gentleman like me to read the one he asked? It would take about two hours. I have the answers to Question No.307, asked by the honourable member for Twillingatf; the amwer to Question No. 293, asked by the member for Bonavista North; Question No. 211, asked by the member for Bonavista North. There are about four pages.

Would the honourable gentleman like me to read them? MR. NEARY: I did not know the minister could read. KR. HICKEY: Well in that case, Kr. Speaker, l cannot let this kind of rumour get around so I will have to show the honourable gentleman that I can read, It is on the Order Pa~er,. dated 30 March, 1973,and the question is: "What are the names of those persons whe as of a current date are Members of the Clean Air, Water and Soil Authority, showing 5!)1L

April 25, 1973 Tape no. 1298 Page 11 in each case: (

a) the ~ate on which he was so appointed; (

b) the term of his appointment; (

c) the ~itle of the position held, being it Chairman, Vice-Chairman, Member or otherwise?" Answer: As of March 31, 1973, the date of the dissolution of the authority, the membership consisted of: Mr. K. A. Oakley, Acting Chairman, Dr. D. Cant, Deputy Minister of the Department of Health; Hr. A.G. Stacey, Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Industrial Development; Mr. F. A. J. Laws, Department of Fisheries; Mr. C. W. Keeping, Deputy Minister, Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing; Mr. G. B. Malone, Deputy Minister of Resources; Hr, Peter VanEs, Department of Community and Social Development. Mr. C. W.

Powell resigned as Chairman and no official appointment was made to replace Mr. Powell. Mr. Oakley acted as Vice-Chairman. Question (2): "What is the value of any amounts payable a Member of the Cl~an Air, Water and Soil Authority in respect of: (

a) per diem allowances; (

b) travel, meal and accommodation expenses; (

c) annual aalary in connection with the performance of his duties in this respect? 11 The answer is "nil." Question (3): "What is the value of any amounts payable the Chairman of the Clean Air, Water and Soil Authority in respect of (

a) per diem allowances; (

b) travel, meal and accommodation expenses; (

c) annual salary in connection with the performance of his duties in this respect?" The answer is "nil.., · Question (4): The answer to Question(4)is the same as the answer to Question(3);the answer is "nil." I will shorten it up, Hr. Speaker. Question (5) is the same; the answer is "nil," Question (6) is the same; the ans1,1er is "nil." Question (7) :"For the fiscal year which began April l, 1972 as of a current date, what is (

a) the total value of amounts that have been paid in respect of salaries and wages for part-time and full-time staff employed in the service of said body; and (

b) the number of persons that have been so employed at any time within that period of time? 8 The answer is (a) $180,678.59; (

b) approved and permanent positions, sixteen; staff turnover, five; part-time staff, six; temporary positions, three; su11111er students, seven. 5911

April 25, 1973 Tape no. 1298 Page 12 Question No. 8: "For the fiscal year which began April 1, 1972, as of a current date, what is the total number of occasions on which meetings of the said body have been held?" The answer to that is twenty-five. Question No. 9: 1 Fgr each Member, Chairman, Vice-Chairman or otherwise of sa~.d body ~nd for the fiscal year which began April 1, 1972, as of a current date, what is the number of meetings which he attended and in which he participated during the said period of time?'' The answer: The Department of Health, twenty-two meetings by Dr. Cant; Dr. Severs, six; Dr.

Sheddon, one; D. A. Strong, one· Department of Economic Development, A. J. Stacey, twenty-one. Municipal Affairs and Housing, twenty; Mr. H. U, Rowe, four; Mr. Philpott, six; Mr, Murphy, four; Mr. Dyke, one; Mr, Karasek, five, Department of Fisheries, nineteen meetings; Mr. E. N, Gosse, eleven; Mr. F. J. Lawe, seven, Mr, C. Russell, one. Department of Comm.unity and Social Development, fifteen meetings; Dr, R, D, S. MacDonald, one; D, Wells, twelve and Mr, Karasek, two, Department of Resources, thirteen meetings; Mr. G, B. Malone; Mr.

Oakley, acted as chairman for all of the twenty-five meetings; Mr.Doane attended the meetings and the recording secretary was Mr. Leaming. Question 10: ~To what vote and under what heading is the cost of the amounts referred to in paragraphs (2) through (7) chargeable?' 1 The answer is: 825-01 through to 825-04-01. l will table thoae copiea, Mr. Speaker. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education and Youth): Mr. Speaker, with respect to Question No, 289, on the Order Paper of April 24, asked by the honourable member for St.

Barbe North, to wit, to ask that the Minister of Education lay upon the table of the House the following information: (This is an oral answer and that is why I am reading the question) "What is the policy of the government concerning the granting of permission 5D1~

April ·25, 1973 Tape no. 1298 Page· 13 --=- to or the enabling of Memorial University of Newfoundland to expand its operation in order that one or more junior coll.eges or c01111Dunity colleges may be established at points outside St. Johu's1 11 • The answer is that the go·vermaent have entered into an agreement with tjie university with respect to the establishment of a regional college at Corner Brook and that the first year of university work and the concomitant other courses, with respect to the fulfillment of a broad range of educational and social needs, will begin in

April 25, 1973 Tape NO. 1299 NM - 1 ~.

OTTn:JTF.T'ff:F: SeptPm"er of 1973, that the p.ovrrnml'nt :!11 in discus11inn nnd convrrRnt1.on, nep.ntintion with tht" 11nlvrr11:fty with respect to other aspects of the work of thr rc~ional collcRe, Essentially the answer is that the government has entered into discussions with respect to the establishment of a regional college at Corner Brook,at the first year of university work and other extension work,and other courses, seminars, proje~ts, undertakings will be undertaken in September, ensuing September,and with respect to other areas in the province, the government is awaiting the report of the Task Force Committee on Education and Human Resource Development which will be available to the government at the end of August.

With respect to question number 3O1,asked on the Order Paper of the same date by the same honourable gentleman,to the effect that it asked the Minister of Education t·o lay upon the table of the House the following information:"What arrangements have the government made to institute, COIID!lencing with the school year that begins Spetember, 1973, a course in dental technology or for the training of denturists either at the College of Trades and Technology, St.

John's or any vocational schools in the province." The answer is that under present legislation there is no statute which recognizes any rights of denturists,that this government is awaiting the report of the committee of this House which is looking into and required to report upon that whole area and that apart from preliminary discussions which have been held, the Department of Education is awaiting the report of that select committee before recommending any changes in legislation or instructing any training institution to initiate such courses. In effect we are awaitin~ the report of the select committee.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: 'fR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, the Minister of Finance undertook yesterday to get me some information concerning a brief presented to the government on behalf of the Registered Nurses Association

April 25, 1973 Tape No, 1299 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: in the ,vince, I wonder if the minister has that information today? MR. CROSBIE: A brief or proposal or whatever you wish to call it was received by the government I think on April 2,from the Registered Nurses Association, and collective bargaining will be starting in the usual way, as soon as time permits. There are other negotiations going on at the same time,of course, MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question - would the minister inform the House that the Nurses Association has been notified that neP,otiations would col!'D'l1ence shortly or if the acknowledr,ed by the government. proposals have been MR. CROSBIE: I could not tell.the hono~rable gentleman that without checking · again. I presume whatever is the normal course of action is being taken. The Treasury Board has three negotiators ir the Collective Bargaining

section and they have to do all the negotiations on be~alf of the government. They are dealing with the teachers, NAPE and a number of areas so I would assume it has been acknowledged and I would assume as time permits negotiations will start. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr, Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Fin1mce. Could the minister inform the House of the present status of negotiations with BRINCO regarding the hydro development of the Lower Churchill? MR. CROSBIE: Negotiations are continuing. Mr.

Speaker, as a matter of fact we had a meeting yesterday and they will be continuing, MR. WOODWARD: Supplementary question, Mr. Speake?: Are we getting closer to reaching an agreement than we were before the minister brought down the budget? ~R. CROSBIE: Any answer to that would have to be speculative, Mr. Speaker, and until we have anything firm to announce there will be no point in speculating. 5::115

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1299 NM MR. NF.ARY: Supplementary question: Apart from the ne~otiAtionR that have been carried on with I\RINCO, 11re the 1,overnml'nt doinA their own feasibility study to see if the province should go ahead with this project on its own? MR. CROSBIE: This has been,of course, a matter which the government,of course,have been considering all along and we are gatherin~ information on several courses of action. 3 'MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. ~ould the minister inform the House if the government have received a request from the St. Lawrence Miners Union to have an industrial enquiry appointed to investirate the labour dispute in St. Lawrence at the present time? MR. DAWE: No. MR. NEARY: That is funny. The minister should read today's "Telegram." I would like to ·aek the !!!inister then another (lt•Psti.on,. Mr.

Speaker, have the government received any representation from the Newfoundland Federation of Labour or the Steelworkers' local in Buchana to do away with the exparte injunction? MR. DAWE: The honourable memberP should read some ?f the papers also; he would discover that there is a bill already before the House to do this. XR. !EARY: I submit, ~r. Speaker, that the minister is very discourteous and has not answered the question,Your Honour. I put a very simple question to the minister, Mr. Speaker, and the minister did not answer the question. ~. SPEAKER: Order please!

I am sure the honourable member well knows the fact that the minister is not compelled to tive an answer to a question. ~ARY: '!r. Speaker, I submit that the minister could be a little more courteous to the llouse, Sir. The minister is makinp, statements outside the !louse. I would like to ask the minister then a suppler-cntary question. 5 ~ 1. li

1'prt1 '.!5, 1°73 Tnpe '.1o. 1 :,nq ''Tl ::r::\"':': Could the r·ini-;t e r inc'icate to the l'ouse what steps, --.--- if any, t11e gov<•rn.,,ent · h;s tal:en to deal with this 1!1,'.Jtter of exparte injunctions; HR . T1A\ ,, : Could he put that on t~e Order Paper,plea s e? ·m. ~:rA"RY: Tr,,norinG the labour movement apain, Sir. n,...nFP.S or THE :JAY: Private 'fembers I nay~ we proceed with motion nu111.bt>r (13) • It wnA IT'Y understaridinr , t)1at thr honourahle 'linister of Finance ha<l adjonrncd the debate on this motion the last day. u1> r:pnsn.n:: >$r . Speaker, how lon~ will I r,o for?

Shall we try for six"I Five 111inutes? Okay: Is there a letter in the "Telegram"? !;ow, ~fr. Speaker, I do not want to delay the !louse while I read this lett 0 er in Telegram," but since the honourable gentleman· has pointed out there is a letter in "The Telegram.•· Is it the one signed, ''Shafted". It is not, "Fiddler On The Roof,'' that is nriddler On The House " is it, the honourable meIBber opposite? ''It is a matter of life and death." MP. NF.ARY: There you go, read that one. '1R. CROSBIF:...:._ ~ow I have to answer this. I am glad the honourable gentleman pointed that out to me. This cannot go unanswered.

The honourable gentleman has nothing else to do but read the papers. '"The royal collllllission may not be the answer." I am glad you pointed that out. Mr. Speaker, this matter is being debated in the House for some several afternoons now and we are well aware of the fact that the honourable me~ber for St. Barbe North has been itching for some six to seven ~eeks now to speak on a motion he has that he wishes to discuss on Private Members' Day, and since we know thnt the honourable ~inister of Educntion,as always, ~as the answer on the coup de r,race for the honourable gentleman from St; Barhe 'forth.

After he has expostulated for an hour or an hour and a half on his resolution, r-1e have the ~1inister of Education ready with a short, brisk reply that wilJ demolish the pentlenan from St. Barbe North. 1:e do not wish to speak at any great lenr,th on 5!J17

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1299 Wi - 5 ~(q_. CROSBIE: this motion today. Now the amendment to the amendment that we are now considering is moved by the honourable member for Bell Island. I must say that that honourable gentleman has appea1.ed to me considerably more in the last few days. I have a great deal kinder feelinr, toward that gP.ntleman since I watched him on television a week ago today. I saw him on television just seven days ago. When I saw him on television just seven days ago, when I saw that honourable gentleman I said to my wife, "My God, Neary has got something after all." MR.

NEARY: Come on over here and sit down. b~fore that crowd over there gets in trouble. AN HO~. !-fF.MBE~: Mr. Chairman, point ' of order: "Honourable crowd"? MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr.

Speaker, ~he honourable gentleman's amendment to the amendment was that the House direct the Minister of Transportation tu appoint an advisory board including representatives uf the Newfoundl.ind Safety Council and other independent and qualified persons with the board to invite representation from the general public and interested parties so that it might submit to the minister advice as to which measures are feasible to improve safety on the highfays of the province and should therefore be adopted by the department. We feel that this amendment is quite unnecessary.

We are quite confident that the Minister of Transportation and Communication has an open mind on this sub_ject and that he, himself, can decide whether he ne~d appoint an advisory board.

Even without the appointment of such a board,he is quite open to hear representations from the public or independent and qualified persons or the Newfoundland Safety Council or otherwise on these matters and that it would therefore be an insult to him and unnecessary for us to pass some-amendment directing him to do something that he is quite prepared to do himself if he thinks there is anything to be gained from it. & Therefore, we will vote against the amendment to the amendment. 5!-j1b

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1299 NM - 6 ~~. CROSIHE: I think all of the aspects of hir,hway safety has been dealt with by both sides of the House in some great depth. I am sure that we have all learned something from it. We all know it is an urgent problem.

We all know that the situation calls for alnm now as it does in every province and therefore I do not believe that any further great debate on the subject would really be of interest or lead to any great result. !,therefore, do not prop~se to say anything more on this amendment except that we feel that we can leave the matter of advisory groups and so on to the minister. We have already debated a question of a royal commission. l!e do not think that is nece~sary.

What is necessary we feel is for the department and the minister to continue to look into all aspects of highway safety, to adopt all such measures as are feasible, to improve safety on the highways of the province, always keeping in mind that as long as we only have the '!'r:mz Cnnn::!:! His;hway of two l~nes, thnt driving on that is going to be more dangerous than if we had a divided four lane highway, which is really in today's traffic; the only feasible and certainly a safer method of driving, When we will get to that stage in this p1'ovince,of course,i~ a question of money.

Before we can have a four lane divided access highway across the Island of Newfoundland of course we have got to use our funds to pave roads, reconstruct roads, on the Island, upgrade roads, and in Labrador. Until the happy day comes when we have done these essentials we cannot afford to do much about two more lanes on the Trans Canada Highway across Newfoundland which is certainly a road n~w that you have to drive very carefully on.

So we on this side of the House, having full confidence in the minister, knowing that he is a man who has taken the burden and duties of his office seriously, knowing that he is quite•willing to listen to the Newfoundland Safety Council and all other interested groups and hopinr, that the relationship in the future will be a bit 5!}1S

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1299 N"l - 7 ~fR ,__f-!0£.R_T_F~ leosR public 1md more me:minrful than it hoR been, knowinr, that the mini11ter 1s to Rf'll"nk tonisi,ht to the Newfoundland Sn!cty Council and knowinR that the minister tonight will have things to say to the Newfoundland Safety that will be of interest to them and the public, we therefore would ask all members of the House to vote ap,ainst the amendment to the amendment and to vote for the amendment and then to vote for the resolution as amended in a perfect display of amity, understanding and co-operation of the House, after which we are all prepared to endure the member for St.

Barbe North on his favourite topic - regional colleges, sub-regional. In addition to the letter in "The Evenin11: Telegram" there is an editorial which is very pertinent to members opposite,in the official opposition. It is headed "Every man for himself." MR. DOODY: The knight of the long knives. MR. CROSBIE: The knight of the long knives, yes. We wonder how uiany of those gentlemen ~ill be left by the time the next election comes or how badly scarred their backs will be.

However, that is another subject. there is also another heading on a letter here that is very appropriate to the topic under discussion, "A political gimmick" it is headed and it is signed, "Shafted, Goose Bay." We do not know if the anonymous writer of that letter is the member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: It could be the fellow who is setting up the separatist movement down there. ~. CROSBIE: It might be the fellow who has accepted his movement. So, Mr. Speaker, I think all the House agrees now that we have di•cussed this and therefore I will conclude my remarks, Mr.

Speaker, and hopefully we can vote on this matter now and move on to another topic. MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question? It is moved by the honourable member for Bell Island that the amendment to the motion be amended to add the following words after the worda ''all aspects of highway safety," " •. ,and this nouse further directs that the Minister of Transportation and Communications

April 25, 1973 Tape ~o. 1299 NM - 8 nppo Int nn n·dvii-iory hoarcl, inclucling a represt>ntative of the i!rwf(nmdl:md '.:.-.r,,rv ro1mcll :md othPr indcp,,ndrnt nnrl qunlt,fi,•d p,•rnon,,, u,tlcl honrcl tn invitf' n•rr,•r1entntion~ frnm th,. p;eneral public nnd lntl•reHtC'd parties so thnt the bJ)ar<l m:ty submit to the minister advice as to which measures are feasible to improve safety on the highways of the province and should therefore, be adopted by the department." On motion amendment defeated. •m.. SPEAKER: I now revert to the rlebate on the motion as amended.

Is the House ready for the question on the amendment to the mot1.on proposed by the honourable the Minister of Finance? The amendment reads as follows: Remove all of the words after, •~ow therefore

be it resolved," and substitute the following, "That this !louse rlirect t'1e DepartmE>nt of Transportation and CotT1munications to continue to enquire into and investir,ate all aspects of hi!?,hway safety and to continue to adopt all such measures as are feasible to improve safety on the highways of the province," Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion? On motion amendment carried. MR SPEAKER: I am receiving some direction here from my peers. With the consent of honourable men,bers, we may dispense with the reading of the original motion and vote on the motion as amended. Do we have consent?

On motion amendment carried. 'ill. SPF.I\KF.ll: In the normal procression of motions, the motions that would be under debate now would be motion (14). moved by the honourable the member for Labrador ~orth,concerning electric power. T1owever, I understand there has been consent that we will move to motion (15),-rr.otioned by the honourable member for ~t. Barbe 'lorth, concerninp; education. Tt is also nor~al procedure that n,otion (14) will no~ drop to the botton, of the Order Paper but I understand that there has been conserit that motion (14) will he dehated s11hsequf'nt to rr.otion (15),

April :'S, ]0 73 Ta(IL' No. 12°9 N'I - 9 ~!Tl, SPE.'f ·'.''. ": wl) ic:h is a bit of a de parture. !'owcvc r, honouruhle me~bers may consent to do practically anythinr. '!Tl. NEAR.Y: If I may, Your Honour, unless we dispense with my collear,u e 's resolution today then we would go on to resolution nurber (14) and leave_ I think my colleague wants to let his resolution han g over until next week. IF.. that the idea, Sir? In the event that we dispense with number (15) today, Sir, then what order will be called? '-IR. SPI:AKER: ~y understanding is that we would then revert to number (14). }!R. ~;EARY: Okay, Sir. MR.

SPEN~R: '.1otion (15), the honourable the member for St. Barbe North. '-IR. F. ROWE: :1r. Speaker, in spite of what the honouTable the ~inister of Finance surgested, Sir, this is not my favourite topic and the topic iR not th~~ nf r~P,ional colleges, !f the hcnourabl~ the '-finister of Finance looked at the resolution carefully he would see that, Sir.

I would just like to read the resolution Your Honour. ''Whereas there is a proli ~eration of \Dliver~ity structures and services in the province because of the continuing expansion of the main university campus, the summer school an main campus, summer schools off campus, regular academic year courses off campus and E.T.V. courses off campus and

whereas· there will be continued operation and expansion of the extension service of the university, the adult education service, the College of Fisheries and Navigation, the College of Trades and Technology." (Sir, I think what is meant there i~ instead of the trades and technical schools, the vocational school~. I should brin~ that correction to the attention of the clerks. It is probably a mistake that I made myselfJ"and the vocational schools and

whereas there will be community and regional colleges established in the province and

whereas there is a great need for sound planning,axticulation and co-ordination of all institutions of post-secondary education in the

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1299 NH - 10 ~R. !:'. TTOl-.'I:: Province• of t,,,1,.rfouncll:1nd and Lnbrndor, now tlwr<'fon• be it n•,:mlv,•d that a cnntmlH!lion of l'll'lttlry of i:ix memlwnt ht• appointed to inve8tinat" into and make recommendations relatin~ to the future direction of post-secondary education so that a l l areas of the province will benefit to the maximum with a minimum of duplication and cost to the province and that the sa:i.d commission be required to repcrt within three months of being established." Now, Sir, there are a number of reasons why I wish to introduce this particular resolution.

One is that I am extremely concerned over the fact that we in this province may duplicate many of the mistakes made by some statPs of the United States and some provinces of the Mainland of Canada in buildin~ a tani;i:led web of post-secondary institutions that cost money and gradually lose their usefulness because of reduced enrollment Sir, the history of post-secondary institutions of educatior throughout North America has been that they have evolved and this just does not mean university education, this mea~s other forms of post-secondary education as well.

What happens is that these things physically spring up around the countryside and they gradually lose their usefulness because of the fact that they ~ight ~et a reduced enrollment in these institutions and therefore we have a very costly miRtake on our hands. Sir, 1 would like to refer to an editorial in "The Financial Post •· of October 1972.when they are pointing out this very problem. "For all of the huge outpourinp, of money into facilities for higher education, it is now abundantly clear that Canada's universities - ij MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member will permit me.

To read editorials is a matter which is out of order in the House. The honourable member may adopt the opinions as his own, however the physical reading of editorial opinion is prohibited. MR. F. ROWE: Can I app eal that order? It seems that when this technique was taken up on a number of other occasions that this was 5!123

April 25, 1973 Tape No. 1299 NM - 11 MR. F. ROWE: allowed, to read from newspaper clippings or from editorials. I may be corrected on this. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could we have a quorum in the House please? Could the cle~k count the - MR. SPF.AKER: Could the clerk count the House, please? We have a quorum. The honourable member will be permitted to continue to read from the editorial, ¥resumably it does not refer to matters that are going on in this House, it is a general comment on education, Please continue. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you very much, ~r. Speaker. ~r.

Speaker, I was pointing out some information from "The Financial Post," an editorial in "The Financial Post" that points to the fact that there appears to be a reduction in post-secondary educational institutions as far as enrollment is concerned. For all the huge outpouring o! ~ney into facilities for higher education, it is now abuncantly clea~ that Canada's universities are approaching zero ~rowth. Preliminary estimates of this year's full-time student !nrollment show that the increase from last year is a bare one-half of one per cent.

Final figures available in December are ~ikely to reveal that even this tiny increment is no more. This is in 1972. Outside Ontario and the Atlantic provinces there is an absolute drop in student numbers. These facts from the telephone survey, as registered at forty-three universities,with ninety per cent of the Canadian student enrollmenqnake all the more significant a report on university drop-outs released by Statistics Canada last month. It states that there 1s a high correlation of short falls in expected e,1rollment with a drop out phenomena.

The data clearly revealed thal th~ optimism of the 1960's has now been replaced bv a certain amount of hesitancy on the part of younp, Canadians. Hesitancy is hardly the word, It is more like an exodus. The percentar,e of students in first, second or third year university dropping out

Tope No, 1299 N"1 - 12 "'fR~F~O!l_E...:_ avcrnr,eii 1f.2 nntionally. It ranp.eB from a hir,h of more than twenty per cent in Dritish Columbia to a low of about five per cent in Ontario, Statistics Canada took its figures seriously enough to do a survey of 9,000 of these drop-outs. Eighty-one per cent of these droP-outs responded. The answers are still to be analyzed but one overall result is clear, there is no single answer for the reason for the nmnber of drop-outs in Canadian universities at the present time.

The quality of university teachin~ and course content is cited as often as a lack of financial aid, It might be pointed out, Sir, that financial aid is one of the main reasons pointed out for dropping out from university. There are positive reasons as well - opportunities for travel or a rewarding job offer as well as those negative reasons offered. Now, Sir, the important point here is that- and this is the reason why I am bringing in this particular resolution, and that is that the history throughout North America with respect to the building of these institutions is that they go up when there is a 5!125

April 25, 1973 Tape 1300 definite need, a definfie rise in student enrollment. However, when the student enrollment levels off we are left with these physical buildinr:s with the !'lc1intenance cost and this sort of thinr.; and we do not have the students to put into them. Sir, there is evidence that this is likely to happen in Newfoundland and Labrador ancl I am hopinp. that my statistics will show this when I get to them a little later on. So I do not want to give the impression that we on this side of the House are against progress in the field of hi~her education in this province.

We see a definite need for institutions such as regional colleges or community colleges in this province but we do not want to have these institutions going up and in ten years we find that we canno, fill these institutions and the province is left with the cost of operating them. Sir, we are still a have-not province and we have to plan extremely carefully with respect to the expenditure of money that does not - MR. NEARY: Could we have silence from the other side of the House, Mr. Speaker? HR. SPEAKF.R: Honourable members may speak - The honourable member for St.

Barbe North does have the rir.;ht to be heara in silence. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, some honourable members in this House may not consider this to be a serious matter and the fact of the matter is that it is. If we are going to talk about the expenditure - AM HON. M"YBER: Do we have a quorum in the House, Mr. Speaker? MR. NEARY: Count the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: We have a quorum. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, I was pointinR out another reason why I was introducing - ~r.

Speaker, could we have the level of noise reduced somewhat in this House because,to be quite frank.I am p,ettini:: rather annoyed with all the interruptions, no quorum, yapping and -yelling. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the noise seens to be coming from out in JM - 1

April 25, 1973 Tape 1300 the corridor. r.oulc! we ret the dool.'s clc,eecl or tell the memben, to ro in their own common room nnd c11rrv on their conversations? Ta thnt a point of order over thete? MR. NEARY: Yes, it is a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Do honourable members wish to debate this point of order? The ruling is quite clear that the honourable member has the right to be heard in silence. It is a rulin~ that has been made innumerable times and undoubtedly will be made innumberably more times. However the general - Ml. ; , .E(F.B.): (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member for St.

Barbe North will permit,the Chair is attempting to create silence for his words of wisdom. - I do believe that honourable members will observe the long-standing rule that the speaker has the right to be heard in silence,and what transpired a few minutes ago was merely playfullness between honourable members. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, I have taught in high school for six years and university for seven years and I have never seen the likes of what I am witnessing here today. Mr.

Speaker, I was trying to point out another reason why I feel that·this resolution is necessary at this time and that is the fact that we are a have-not province and we have to plan very carefully the expenditure of money that does not go into an area that brings money directly back into the coffers of this country,and education is one area. There are an ·awful lot of spin-off benefits from investment in education however it is not the kind of an investment that brings money directly back into the province and therefore I feel that we have to plan this very carefully.

Sir, another reason why I feel that this resolution is necessary is that there is a tremendous need,and this has been pointed out at the recent NTA Convention here at Holiday Inn in St. John's, there is a tremendous need to spend _more money at the 5!!27 ·~ - .,

April 25, 1973 Tape 13()() JM - 3 primary, elcmentnry ancl seconclary levels of education in this province. The need is great and it has been pointed out durinr. the consideration of the esti~ates. From time to time we hear from the NTA and from other educators in this province about the great need for a greater expenditure of money at the lower level of education, if you want to call it that. Sir, that level should not be sacrificed nor should it be held back because of expenditures in the higher area of education in this province. This is why, Sir, I feel that this resolution is necessary.

If you adhere to the Bruno Theory, Jerome Bruno,in underdeveloped countries you sort of had to . expend money at the higher level of education and the lower level of education simultaneously. The most lop.ical way to develop an educational system is to start at the lower Rrades and work your way up throur,h primary, elementary and hiJ?;h school and into the university.

However, Sir, when y?u have an underdeveloped country,and I think we can consider ~ewfoundland at the time of Confederation was to a certain extent an underdeveloped country, there is a need for expending a great amount of money at the higher level of education as well as the lower level of education. Now that-we have overcome some of the difficulties in the area of higher education,! think it is time that we start considering very carefully expenditures at the post-secondary level and trying to re-emphasize and emphasize the need for expending money at the lower levels.

Now, Sir, the budget speech as far as education is concerned was one I terned as that of entrenchment and it is sort of like an intermission during an unfolding drama. There is retrenchMent as far as expenditures in education is concerned this year. The absolute amount that is being spent is higher than in any ottter year but relatively speaking we have had a reduction in the rate of increase in expenditures. Sir, the Memorial University students have to borrow $1,400 before their 5~2b

April 25, 1973 Tape 130() allownnccR or tuition~ pnfcl to t:1em. A rerional college will not he constructed in Corner Rrook this yenr. It is my understanding that an actual rer.ional college will not be constructed in Corner Brook. The pupil-tencher ratio or a reduction in it will not come about this year. The denominational educational cor:1111ittees still are per:r,ed to the inadequate amount of $8 million for scho~l construction.

The trades anc' technical colleges, as far as they are concerned there will be no new buildings or no new residences built for the Trades and Technical College this year and the vocational schools. are sev~rely restricted as far as their capital expenditure is concerned. T~erefore, Sir, it seems like ,-. good time to access the whole sit•iation, to establish a sound philosophy and policy and direction in order to ensure that primary and elementary education does not suffer as a result of expenditures in higher education.

Thal is tl,e main 1-1olnt that I am tryinR to ruakt: with respect tu the need for this particular resolution. Now, Sir, what I am going to do is go through some facts and figures and descriptions of courses and the number of people enrolled in the various institutions of post-seconoary education in this province. It is likely to be a bit tedious, Sir. MR. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. ROHE(F.B.): No, I am going to .read them out, Mr. Speaker. The honourable member for St.

Jo~n 's North,who is renowned for not being able to stand tedious repetition or tedious statitics,he can always leave the chamber . if he feels he cannot stand it.

Sir, what I am hoping to do is to give some indication of the enrollment in the various post-secondary institutions in the province and also to try to outline the nature of the courses offered in these and also outline the branches of these various institutions in order to trv to indicate that there is a strong possibility of a fair ar.iount of overlapping, a fair armunt of duplication and a lack of correlation in all of these pror.ralTll!les. 592S J~ - 4

April 25. 1 ~73 Tape 130() Sir, as far as the university is concerne<l,this year we h~d a total full-time enrollment of 6,966 students. That is one•to fifth year students. Sir, there were 405 in the area JM - 5 of social work; ~% in the area of science; in ph)"6ical education t½ere were 247 students; nursinr. 189: medicine and pre-menicine. 36~; enpineerinr. and ~re-cnpincering: 365; education, 2,4~7: in the faculty of commerce there were 537, in the faculty of arts 1,020 and unknown 230 for a total university full-tine populati~n of 9,666.

Now, Sir, the important thin~ to note here is this: If we take the first and second year of total enrollments,in the first year there is an enrollment of 2,107 and in the second year there is a full-time' enrollment of 1,747. That means, Sir, that in the first two years there were 3:854 students. Now, Sir, that represents approximately one-~alf of the total full-time enrollment of the university.

If we were to set up branches of the university throu2hout this province on the North Coast, Northwest Coast, Northeast Coast, in Central Newfoundland, in Western Newfoundland, in Southern Newfoundland and in Labrador,we would have approximately one-half of the full-time enrollment of the main campus of this university distributed in these various branches of the university. Naturally the question to be asked is, what are we goin~ to do with the space at the main campus if this does happen? This is an important consideration for which a special commission should be set up to study.

Sir, the part-time enrollment of this university,broken down according to the same categories that I mentioned before,is 1,470 students. On this main campus.coming in as part-time students we have 1,470. Ap,ain the question to be asked is,naturally enou~h most of these students will continue to attend the mai~ campus of the university because they are close to the area of St. John's. Sir, the iraduate enrollment at the university is 687. ~ow, Sir, that takes care of the main campus. The important thing to consider here is that if we set up a fairly elaborate regional 5tl3li

April 25, 1973 Tape lJ(')Q or branch system of the university it is conceivable tlat close to one-half of the full-time student enrollment at this university would be wiped out on the 1Min campus. The question is, will the existinp; facilities on the campus then be a waste or can they be properly used for post-graduate or graduate work without major expensive renovation and modification? That is the question to be asked. JM - F. Sir, as well as the fflain caMpus university enrollment we also have an off-campus division - but I cannot remember the exact name of the division.

It is the division of extra mural studies or something like that but anyway it boils down to bein~ an off-campus ETV and live combination.and there are a total of twenty-seven centres in this province at the present time. These centres are in Labrador and in the island

section of our province: Baie Verte, Burin, Carbonear, Catalina, Clarenville, Corner Brook, Deer Lake, Flower's Cove, Fogo Island, Gander, Glovertown, Grand Falls, Goose Bay, Grand Bank, Labrador City, ~illtown, New World Island, Placentia, Port aux Basques, Roddickton, St. Anthony, St. Brendan's, St. Vincents, Sprinp.dale, Stephenville, l-lhitbourne and Wesleyville. Sir, a total of twenty-seven centres that teach twenty-seven different university courses in a total of seventy-six classes. As I mentioned before, Sir., these courses some of them are taught by video tape, audio-video tape,by these VTR machines.

They are produced at the university but they are sent out to these various centres, and some of the courses are actually taught live by experienced teachers in the particular community. Sir, these classes vary from a total enrollment of eleven in St. Vincents to a total of 322 at a centre in Stephenville. So, Sir, there is another extension of the university. As well as the.main campus there ~s this F.TV and live combination of off-caMpus courses that are taup:ht durins:, the rep,ular year. Now, Sir, this combination of off-car,rnu~ courses are sometimes t1111~ht 5!J3:!

April 25, 1973 Tape 1300 as well durin'! the su!M'.ler ,on-=o.mpus summer courses ancl off-camr•us summer courses. I do not think I have the figures for these. Sir, as well as these branches of the university,we h~ve Littledale which has 123 students taking first and second year academic and relip.ious courses,and I think they take all their professional educational courses on the main campus. They come in for those, althour,h over the past few years I believe they are starting to offer some of the professional educational courses at Littledale. ~iow, Sir, this is a case where we have almost a junior college.

The unfortunate thing about this is that this particular junior college, if•you want to call it that, is extremely close to the university campus and one wonders about the actual need for it al though we always have to recogniz _e the excellent contribution these persons are making in traininr, and teaching these young ladies out in Littledale. But there is another extension of the university. So, Sir, we have the main campus, we have various forms of ETV courses and off-campus, live courses, we have Littledale and as well we have the extension service of the university.

As far as the extension service is concerned,there were a total of 2,459 students enrolled at seven centres in 1971 and 1972.throughout the extension service. These centres were at St. John's, at Corner Brook, at Stephenville, at Goose Bay, at Labrador City and Wabush, at Grand Falls and at Marystown. So a total of 2,459 students enrolled in the extension service courses of the university. AB well as that, the extension ·course service held workshops and seminars at four centres.

They had one at Fogo,in the area of education, they had one at Harbour Grace,which was a developmental seminar, they had one in T.ewisporte, wh~ch. was on communications, and they had one in Port au Choix,which was on the fisheries. Now, Sir, the types of courses that extension services JM - 7 offered were as follows: public administration, business administration, a bankers course, adult and teena~e art, the glee club, sewing, 5~32

Ap.-ll 2'."J. l<J Tape 1300 conversationa ,·ench, new mathematics, typinp:, photography and auto mec:h.mics . -.ow, ~ir, I mentioned these courses because it wil~ be seen later on when I describe some of the courses of the Trades and Technology Colle~e and of the vocationa~ schools that there is an overlap here on the types of courses that are being tau?,ht by these various institutions. MR. CARTER: Tnhle it. JM - 8 MR . ROWE(F.B.)_: Why does not everybody, Mr. Speak~-:-, table everythin~ they have to say in this honourable House?

Why did not the honourahle member for St . .John's North table his petition yesterday instead of having us sit here and endure him? MR.NF.ARY: Go back to the Canaries and get your batteries recharged. !~_:_ROWE(!_ . .A_i: The honouranle member for St. John's North is becominp: nothin?, bnt a nuisance in this House. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to,without even identifying whether one is for or against junior colleges or community colleges,! would like to point out that there is a great need to study the advantages and disadvantages of junior colleges or corranunity colleges in this province.

Now, Sir, for the purposes of definition I would like to refer to a junior college as an extension of the university, presumably the type of thing that we are talking about in Corner Brook,althoUS?;h it has been suggested that this junior college would cater to the needs of the community to a certain extent. But generally speaking,let us define a junior college as an extension of the university,and in a few minutes we can look at our definition of a community college.

Sir, as far as advantages are concerned,there are a nUMher of advanta~es for ,1unior coller,es in this province and one is that they prevent J'Aemorial University from becorninp, ~oo larr,e and too inpersonal. I think this is a recognized advantap,e,that universities can become too larpe and can become too impersonal, and by settin~ up 1unior colleges of the university I think that an advantap;e is that this would not hanpen. Also you would have 5U33

April 25, 1973 T.ioe 1'3()0 .T~ - I.) -~ less cumbersome on-ca~nus universitv adninistration. t think that when an institution ~ets so large,with about 7,000 students,you can have a very cnnhcrsor,e university administration. I think we saw evidence of that during the present year when we had the students going on strike or the next thin~ to it over certain university administrntivr actions. Also, Sir, it coul.rl free Memorial for more involvel'lent in graduate studies anrl research.

We have a coMbination here of an underp.;raduate and a graduate university and if we want to have a fine, ~ra~d, bip.,reputable p.raduate university in this province, one way of doi~p. it is to free the main campus so that more of the undergraduate students could attend these ~ranches of the university or these junior colleges. Also, Sir, an obvious advantage of a junior collepe is for the convenience of students outside of St. John's (This is a f:lnanc1.c1l convenience) and proxir.ii ty that it provides for encourap.;ini;i: students to i;i:o to higher stucUes beyond the high school level.

I am pretty sure that if you do have branches of the university in the various sectors of our province,that students will feel more impelled to leave high school and go to such an institution. Also, Sir, such a junior col~ep,e would have,hopefully,a healthy academic influence on high schools in the particular area. Another advantage of setting up junior colleges is that existing facilities may already be present· in certain areas,and this is obvious in the Stephenville Area.

There are existing facilities in the Stephenville Area and probably one of the obvi~us things that you could do here is to set up a branch of the university in these existinr, facil1.ties. However,ohvionsly this would be the same adv1mtage for a community collep;e. Also, Sir, it might attract professors who have a Rreater ahility as teachers than as researchers. An awful lot of professors at the university actually en1oy the process of teachinr. and they do not want necessarily

April 25, 1971 Tape 1300 to become involved in research alt~oup,h there miP,ht be a hit of pressure on them to get involved in research. If you had branches of tne university,there could be a _greater emphasis .on teachin~ and you could attract these types of people. Also~ Sir, another obvious advantage is that it could make a general contribution to the community. Now, Sir, these are some of the advantages of a junior college which is riefined as an extension of the university only. Sir, there are also a number of disadvantages that should be studied. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, in one of your advantages you suggested it would allow university officials more time for research. I wonder if the honourable member could enlarge on that point. Does the honourable member mean full-time research or part-time research? MR. ROWE(F.B.): No, what I was suggesting is that if you had branches of the university set ur throughout th~ provin~e this might attract professors who want to put more time into the teachinR process itself rather than ~et involved in research.

Now what I am saying here is basically this,that in a university institution like Meliiorial if you are a professor there obvious~y you have to teach as that is one of your prine jobs,but there is also always a pressure on a professor to do two other thinrs, research, serve on committees and publish or perish. There is a bit of pressure on a orofessor to get involved in research at a big university campus. However, they can make a very valuahle contribution in the teachin~ process only.

The su~r,estion is that one of the advantages of aettin~ up brancl1cs of the university or 1unior colleReS is that this type of a profcRsor,who en1oys the process of teaching and who does not want to rct into pure research and have to end up neglecting students and spendinr his time <loin~ research and publishing or perishinr,he can r.et out into the com~unity and he can devote close to his full-time at teaching itself. This is one of the thin~s I 5B35 JM - JO

April 25, 1971 Tape IJnO am list!n~ as an advantaJ>e of a Junior coller>e, emphmds on tC'nchinr and probably less emphasis on rcsc-arch. The main universitv could he the research centre, if you want to call it that, and a centre for p,raduate studies and post-graduate stud.:les. Now, Sir, in spite of these advantages there are a nUJT1her of disadvantar,es of junior colleges. Junior colleges tend to be linited in scope. You may have isolation from the university itself and you may have restriction of courses.

In other wards you may have a situation where the .1unior collep:e may not be elaborate enou~h to teach a p.ood series of science courses or there may not be adequate library facilities. So there may be a restriction of courses and you may have frar,mentation of the continuous progress of one, two, three, four and ·five yea .rs of education towards the depree. So the di~advanta~es could be listed as isolation from Memorial, restriction of courses offered and fragmention of first and second year courses from third and fourth year courses.

JM - 11 Also, Sir, there could be a possible lack of standardization as far as faculty and curriculum and facilities are concerned. There is a possibility that when you have these branches of the university set up that you may have a reduction of standardization. On the other hand,it is conceivable I suppose that you could have a better standard.

In any event,whet~er the standards are different, they may not be hip;her or lower but ther ·e may be a different standard and if you have a different standard in four or five different junior collep:es and these students have to end up goinr, to the main campus,you can anticipate some difficulty in that respect. There maybe difficulty in ,getting faculty.

Faculty may feel - ''Well, if I am ,going to hecone a professor I want to be a professor at the University of Newfoundland and not at a second cousin or not at a branch university." Before I sup:gested that you may be able ·to · attract better teachers as opposed to better researchers but you may end up havinr difficulty gettin~ faculty.

April 25, 1973 Tape 131)0 JM - l The junior cc,]lrrcs may beco!".c poorer cousins to the univcrsit:: i.n natters of fin:mce fro!'! thr r:overnmen-t. Tf we have a series of .1uni,·r coller,es set up. it is conceivable we may finrl the 1unior colleges may become second cousins to the main university campus as far as finances are concerned. You may have difficulty with respect to apparatus,materials anrl library. You may have a lack of these thinr:s or you may have to have duplication of these facilities over what you would normally have at the main university campus.

The junior coller,e may become a weerlin!Z--Out J!:round to main university entrance. Sometimes we wonder if the courses and the professors and this sort of thing are not too hard on university students. At the present time we get our norl'IB.l compler.ient of Christmas graduates. It is conceivable that the junior colleges could become a weedin~-out ground for university entrance, that is entrance to the main campus. Junior colle~es may becor.e centres for rejects from the university.

We could ha•:c t!:~ possibility of the junior collep,e itself developing into a teachers college with possible degenera·tion of the standards of the teacheri college or of the faculty of education. In certain areas of the province, Sir, there may not be sufficient student base,in terms of numhers, . and this whole thing may possibly turn ~ut to be a proliferation of small universities all over the province. I mean if you set up a junior college in Corner Brook,who is to say when Corner Brook is goinJ,1; to ask to convert that junior college into a full-fledged university.

A few years,Grand Falls may want to do the same thin~ or Gander do the same thin"p or Burin clo the sal!le thinp;. Also, Sir, there is a possibility of overstandardization or control by the l'l.'.lin university campus. So, Sir, there are a ~reat nhr..ber of advantap;es and there are a rreat number of disadvantares in junior caller.es in this province,an<l I 0 do not know whcthet this has been lookec. at carefully enourh. We still have not had the report of the task force on hUinan 5!J37

April 25, 1973 education and resource developll'ent,yet this arlministration has made a serious nis take, in my view. They have announcerl a junior college , I for Corner l'lrook,so obviously they have a 1un.ior college policy. 1 feel that this is a serious mistake,without havinP. a very serious look at these disadvantar.es and these advantages. Now, Sir, what about community colle,es? Well, Sir, I would like to read a definition of a co1:1munity college for the sake of definition,to know what we are talking about in this particular debate.

The co1l!fflunity collep;e is often defined as a comprehensive two-y~ar colle17,e which offers a variety of po11t­ secondary educational programmes to meet the needs of the community. Dr. Fred Giles of the University of 'Washington states that a connunity colle~e is an institution which is a regional, post 5U3t

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Pagel -- apb high school, educational and cultural centre. I repeat that. "The community coller,e · rs an institution which is a regional post high school, educational and cultural centre accessible, availalbe and capable of providing educational leadership responsive to and responsible to educational and cultural needs of the people of a region and to the ~oals of higher education as well." Now, Sir, that is what I am going to take as the definition of a community college. This does not mean that the community college could not have university courses being taught in it.

That is the whole point. A community college can be a little, tiny _ thing, the equivalent of an outhouse, if you want to go to that extreme, or it can be the equivalent of a great, monstrous complex that ·would involve university edu=ation, vocational education and cultural education in a particular community. A community college is an extremely flexible thing in terms of programmes, curriculu~ and in terms ot size. That is the whole point that we can make.

You can have a community college on Fogo Island and you can have a community college in Corner Brook but obviously these two community colleges would be extremely different in their make-up. I do not know whether you would have university courses, for instance, being taught on a relatively full-time basis on Fogo Island but you could certainly see the likes taking place in a place like Corner Brook, Central Newfoundland or Southern Newfoundland. There are

definitions or advantages and disadvantages to community colleges. One adva~tage is that a community college would provide a greater service to the needs of the community. It would provide greater co-ordination of general educational effort in a particular community. A community college, Sir, I submit, would have a better chance of government support because more people in the community would be responsive to such an institution and they could see the need for it. There would be a greater cross-fertilization ·, of students and of programmes that would fit a certain community 5 ii')(' !J uiJ

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Page 2 -- apb college. It certainly broadens the advantages that a junior college itself would have. I might point out that a community college concept wou~d reduce many of the disadvantages listed for junior colleges. About the only disadvantage we can see for coI11111unity colleges, Sir, is that there might be a certain tendency for university control over the standards.

You might have a reduction of the academic stream, you might have a reduction of the standards of the academic stream in a co1TU11unity college system and it would obviously require a ~reater degree of administrative controls. I think it is important that we give very serious consideration because at the university itself there are two schools of thought as far as junior colleges or community colleges are concerned. All of our experience in Canada shows that nearness is an aid to increased participation in post-secondary education.

While there will always be a limit to the number of colleges that should be established, educational opportunities can be improved by relating to location, number and kind of further educational institutions to our population centres. Sir, the important point is this, that there is a field of thought or one school of thought at the university that supports the Giles concept of a community college. I will repeat it ap;ain.

"The community college is an institution which is a regional post-secondary high school educational and cultural centre, accessible, available and capable of providing educational leader­ ship responsive to and responsible to educational and cultural needs of the people of the region and to the goals of higher education as well." A few systematic attempts have been made to determine the post-secondary needs of our people in this province, particularly those who do not wish to proceed ,to a degree pro~ramme.

Perhaps the Cander conference on further education,which was sponsored by the Departll'ent of Education Edcuational Arlministration Department,provided 5U4(;

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Page 3 -- apb some indication of these needs. Si~, I have nlready referred the Minister of Education to the Gander conference report,and this was conducted a couple of years ago. There was every indication at that particular conference that the province required post-secondary educational institutions offering a variety of services to people of all ages and all formal educational levels. I am relating to you now, Sir, the school of thought at the university that feels that we should have a community college system in this particular province.

Probably we should have the development of a system of two-year regional or community colleges, I should say for the entire province,serving the following functions: A community college can be composed of three components: One component can provide a programme for students who wish to transfer to a university and complete a degree or who wish a year or two of academic studies before going on to some other institution of post­ secondary education or going on directly to employment.

In other words, we are talking here about a university component of the community college where the students can terminate their university studies after the end of two years or they could transfer to a trades and technical college or they, could go on towards a degree programme.

The second component of a community college, Sir, could provide vocational and sub-professional education and a third component of this particular community college could provide continuing education for adults, leadership training activities, cultural activities, lectures, short courses related to social, economic and connnunity needs and recreational programmes based on community needs and interest.

The first of the above functions that I just mentioned would be served by the academic division, that is,for ~11 intents and purposes the university division; the second by a technical and vocational division, for all intents and purposes the vocational school division or the colleRe of trades and te~hnolop,y,and the third 5~41

by community service division of the. community college which I suppose could, to a cert~in extent, be co-ordinated and correlated by the extension services of the university. Now, Sir, that is one school of thought. The other school of thought at the university, I will not get into the details of it, is that university colleges or junior colleges or branches of the university be established in this province. This i~ in fact what we have seen beinp established at Corner Brook. To my mind, this province cannot afford branches of che university onlv. ¥.R. ROUSSEAU: :P'-R.

F .B .FOWE: How about if we call it the academic division? If you call it the academic division of a community coller.e,I think it would make a lot more sense. MR. ROUSSEAU: But what is the difference? Ml. F .B.P.OWE: There is a lot of difference, Sir, because the honourable Premier stated in Corner Brook that he was setting up a junior college in Corner Brook and at the same time he announced that he was setting up a community college in Stephenville. This is why I was so anxious to get from the minister and to get from the Premier an exact definition of these two institutions. Because, Mr.

Speaker, the junior college that was described in Corner Brook was a kind of an insti .tution that was really a branch of the university but which was also goin~ to try and take care of some of the community needs. From the definition that I could seek out,the community college that was planned for Stephenville did not contain a university nor academic component and was described very much the same as a vocational school. It might be pointed out that there is a vocational school and an adult education institution in the Stephenville Area.

From what I can see, the Premier's definit~on and the Minister of Education's definition was somewhere in between these two

definitions that I just defined. What I am trying to say is that the government in my view should commit itself to a community college philosophy in this province. A community college philosophy, not a

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, PnRr 5 -- apb community philosophy and a .1unior college philosophy, just a community college philosophy. MR. ROUSSE . .\l': According to the Giles definition. MR. F. B. ROWE: Accordinr, to the Giles definition. Then in Corner Brook you could have your academic components, you could have, if you need it now - if you need it, your vocational component,and if you need it you can have your cultural component. Now, you go to a place like St. Anthony ( I should not pick out vocations) ••• MR. ROUSSEAU: ?-1R. F .B .ROWE: Labrador West.

Let us go out to Fogo Island, just pick that out of the hat, Fogo Island. I would anticipate that there would be some difficulty in settinp, up a fairly regular two-year system of university courses on Fogo Island. There is just not enough student population out there to justify the setting up of one first and second year courses of the university,but if the govermnent were committed to a community coller,e system, you could have a community college out in Corner Brook that could go into some existing · facility. The big emphasis on Fogo Island ·may be on cultural, social and economic needs.

I do not think there is a vocational school out on Fogo Island so there may be some br~nches or some courses of vocational education and technical education taught. A community college from one area of the province to another area, you might have ten community colleges all of which are completely different,and this is all I am saying. Acknowledge the fact, take a flexible look at it.

I am telling you now that the community college or the junior college in Corner Brook is going to evolve into a branch of the university only and within five years I can see the difficulty. ~y not now make the junior colle~e in Corner Brool<'. a university? By that time there will be a developing junior college- in C:ander or Grand falls, there will be another one down on the Burin Peninsula aomewhere, there will be another one in Labrador and the next thinp, you know we will have people in 5 !J 4 :~

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Pn~e 6 -- apb Newfoundland screaminp and yellin~ for a univrrsity in 1.nbrador, for a university on th~South Coast, for a university in Central Newfoundland and for a university on the West Coast. This is the history, this is what happens. I think we should tell it the way it is now. Anyway, Sir, I devoted a fair amount of emphasis here, so far, on this whole business of the university, the extension services of the university, the conununity colleges and junior colle~es and the off-campus E.T.V courses and what have you.

I mi~ht just point out some statistics with respect to the vocational schools in our province.

We have a total of fifteen vocational schools in this province, at Bell Island, at Burin, Carbonear, Clarenville, Conception Bay Socth, Corner Brook, Gander. (obviously, in Corner Brook with a junior college out there there may not be very much emphasis on vocational education in Corner Brook, for the simple reason that you have a vocational school in Corner Brook) Grand Falls, Lewisporte, Port Aux Basques, Stephenville Crossing, Stephenville Adult Education Centre, Happy Valley Adult Education Centre, craft training centres throughout the province and adult education.

Now, Sir, these students are divided up into full-time and part-time students and they are further divided into provincial and manpower students. In these fifteen vocational schools there are a total of 5,161 full-ti~e students and 9,843 students,for a grand total of 15,004 students enrolled in our vocational schools. These are the fifteen vocational schools. On top of the vocational schools we have eighty-five centres outside of the vocational schools operated by the Vocational Educational Division of the Department of Education.

These are eighty-five craft training centres outside of the vocational schools 1 with a full-time enrollment of 4,058 students. I do not think I will go through - I will just say eirhty-five centres. There is no need to list them all. They teach an assortment of

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Page 7 -- apb crochet, embroidery, kni~ting,leathercraft, macrame, quick crafts - macrame-is that not where they sort of weave these hanging tapestries or mats or something like that? AN HON. t,ff.T-fBER: (Inaudible) !ffi.. ROWE:IT_:hl Right. I will yield the floor to the honourable member for Labrador. He knows more about this than I do. As I understand it,it is a kind of a tapestry sort of thing. AN HON. 1-'EMBF.R: The Minister of Education is makinr, notes. MR. F.B.ROWE: The Minister of Education can probably give a more definitive definition when he rises to speak, Mr. Speaker.

Quick crafts, sewing and weaving. I know this is tedious, Sir, but the point is that these various courses are offered by the vocational schools. hey are offered by the craft training centres of which we have eighty-five. They are offered by the various branches of the trades and technical colleges and they are offered by adult education centres all over the province. What I am trying to point out is that there is a fair amount of duplication and overlapping. There is a need for some degree of co-ordination and articulation as far as this is concerned.

Now, Sir, besides the fifteen vocational schools and the eighty-five centres outside these schools of craft-training centres, we also have adult education,part-time classes. Adult education part-t:illle classes; Sir, there are a total of seventy-two adult education part-time classes with upgrading, academic upgrading courses. Prestunably these are high school courses and there are 3,595 students enrolled in 'academic upgrading in these part-time adult education classes; there are 357 enrolled in typing; 309 enrolled in physical education,for a total enrollment of 4,261.

On top of that, Sir, all under the vocational division, we have private trade schools in this province. Private trade schools and these are registered within the province in accordance with the rep,ulations of the Trade School Act, 1960. There is the Atlantic·school incorporated, there is the Abbo-tt Corranercial School, 5~45

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Page 8 -- apb the Lemoirne School of Hair Design, the Northern Institute of Technolop;y Limited, The International Career Academy of Canad~ Limited, the Devroy Institute of Technology, the International Correspondence Schools,and they have a total Newfoundland enrollment of 383 students. MR. J .A.CARTER: There is nothing I presume to prevent the honourable gentleman from reading the"Encyclopedia Britannica" but it does seem to me to be, to use an out-worn word, tedious.

I think that since there is a s'tanding rule against repetition and unnecessary (I was going to say inalingering) drawing out of debate, I would call the Speaker's attention to the honourable gentleman's delivery. Also, I would like t'o ask whether or not his t11~e has expired. MR. F • B • ROWE : May I speak to that point of order, Mr. Speaker? To start off with, I have not repeated one simple - there has been no repetition here whatsoever. It might be tedious, I agree with that, I am referring to a tremendous number of figures simply to make a point.

There has been no repetition and I think that is the only point of order the honourable member could have made. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure that the honourable member is aware that . he is not supposed to read a speech an~I am quite certain that he is only referring to his notes to quote some statistics. If he has been a little bit repetitious,he certainly will not do so in the future. f,!R, F.B.ROWE: Sir, I can assure you that I have not been repetitious. I have not repeated one single table. MR. ROBERTS: in his own way. MR.

F .B.POWE: The honourable member has the right to make his points That is correct,and how else can a person refer to statistics other than to refer to tables? ~. ROBERTS: and why. 1-'R. F.B.POWE: Now we know how people get flunp. out of the cabinet Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for_ 5!14G

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Page 9 apb MR. SPEAKER: Order,please. ,I I ) ~- F.B.ROWE: ihe honourable member for St. John's North is ------ -- goin~ to have to put up with a bit more of this because, Mr. Spraker, I ~m seriously trying to point out the serious der,ree of lack of correlation, of repetition of courses, of overlappinp. of courses, of duplication of courses that we have in the various post-secondary educational institutions of our province. I might ask also, if the Speaker could inform me as to how much time I do have left. MR. SPEAKER: Approximately thirty-one or thirty-two minutes. MR.

F.B.ROWE: Thank you. Now, Mr. Speaker, in these part-time programmes at the various vocational schools in the province, we have programmes described as follows: SOME HON. 1-'E~ERS: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I would like to inform honourable members that the honourable member speaking does have the right to be heard in silence. 1'1R.

F.B.ROWE: Academic upgrading, accounting (basic), amateur radio operation, automotive,preventive maintenance, bookkeeping, carpentry, conversational French, copper enameling, crochet, defensive driving, embroidery, jewellery, knitting, leathercraft, oil painting, physical education, pottery, quick crafts, sewing, shorthand, typing, weaving and welding. MR. DOODY: No finger painting? ~- F.B.ROWE: No finger painting but I would not be surprised but it would be in there.

Sir, as far as the full-time courses are concerned, I have a further breakdown here - aircraft maintenance, barberinp., basic training for skill development, beauty culture, beauty culture apprentice, bricklaying, carpentry and joinery, car.pentry upr,rading, chain-saw operation and maintenance, clerk­ accountini, clerk-typing, cookinp.; draftini (basic), draftin~ (architecturnl), drnftin~ (en~ineerinr-), diesel mechanics. Sir, I could P,o on for a couple of more pa~es of descriptions of courses. 5~4 ·,

ftpril 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Pape 10 -- spb The impo~~pt point that I am tryinr, to make here once again is that this is yet another institution of post­ secondary education in this province that overlaps and duplicates the work of some other institutions. Now, Sir, that is the vocational schools. If we look at the College of ~rades and ~echnology we see even more duplication.

In the College of Trades and Technology there was a total enrollment over the past year of 1,712 students. 598 students were enrolled in pre-employment courses, 402 were enrolled in post-secondary courses and 396 were enrolled in apprenticed training.

Let us look at the description of courses that we get f~ the College of Trades and Technology: Barbering, beauty culture, bricklayin~, carpentry, catering, clerk-accounting, clerk (hotel, front desk), clerk-typin~, commercial art, cooking, drafting, electrical (basic), electronics (industrial) heavy duty mechanics, key punch operator, machinists, millwright,and we ~an keep going on that, As far as post-secondary is concerned, business administration we heard before. food management, secretarial science, medical-lab technology, pharmacy, x-ray ~echnology, nurs~ng assistants, medical-lab assistants, construction technology, electrical technology, electronic technology, forestry technology and surveying technology.

Sir, the important point to note here is that the most strikin~ feature of the programme of the College of Trades and Technolo~y is a similarity to the vocational schools, I think it is time for us to think of establishing a purely poly­ technical institute in this province and let the vocational schools do the job they are suited for and let the poly-technical or college or trades and technology do the job tha~ they are supposed to do, The Colleie of Trades and Technology is to a predominant extent only a vocational school.

Its vocational programmes should be transferred to a vocational school of which the pro~rammes should

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Page 11 -- apb he fntep;r11ted w1 th th<' 8t'!condnry schools in the St. John's Arc-.~. The college itself should be developed into a first-class technicaJ institute on the model of Ryerson, with progr8J1111les planned in collaboraticn with the medical school, the faculty of engineering at the university and the applied sciences and in industry. The adult education centres throughout this province have courses very similar to some of the courses that are taught in the vocational schools, the College of Trades and Technology and some of the other institutions.

English, mathematics, science, physical education, geography, algebra, conversational French, physics, public speaking, elementary studies and typing. This is another example of duplication. We have sixty adult education centre~ in this province with a full-time enrollment of 2,000 students. We can see duplication of the courses being taught in adult education with courses taught in these other institutions. folR. ROUSSEAU: (Inaudible) MR. F.B.ROWE: This is separate from these. MR. ROUSSEAU: The honourable member is not suggesting that they are both of the same content? 1"R.. F.B.ROWE: Well some of them are.

Yes, some of them are. For instance, upgrading courses, just to ~et an acad~mic high school diploma or something like that. They are the same courses and in some cases there is a certain amount of overlap and a certain amount of duplication. In certain cases they are exactly the same courses that are taught for the same diplomas. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I will not go into the College of Fisheries because that is a rather specialized institution,but I still think that there is a need for co-ordination, correlation and planning of courses that are taught,say at a college of trades and technology,so that you can have a transfer of students across these particular areas. I anticipate what the honourable the Minister of Education is going to say in reply to this.

April 25, 1973, Tape 1301, Page 12 - apb 1"R ." OTTENHEIHER: MR. F.B.ROWE: MR. OTTENHEI?-'ER: say. MR. F.B.ROWE: The honourable member is better off than I am. --~ Why is that? I have not anticipated yet what I am going to It is obvious, therefore, Mr. Speaker, that there will be unanimous support of this particular resolution in that case. Mr. Speaker, I realize and I do not want this to distract from the seriousness of this particular resolution. I pusposely -used a documentation of the courses that I have gotten from these various institutions and a listing of the number of students who_ are attending them.

I coul~ have gone into this in much greater detail than I did but the point is- AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. F.B.ROWE: I could have, quite seriously. The point , is that there is a serious amount of duplication with respect to pc=t­ secondary education in this province and I think that we should have a special COl!llllission set up to look specifically into it. Sir, I am going to say right from the outset that I do not believe that the terms of reference for the educational and human resource committee or the task force on plannin~ is the one to do it.

There are sixteen pages of terms of reference for this particular committee and I do not feel that they are focusing in on the problem at hand. I would just like to hear from the Minister of Education on this because I feel that it is a serious matter. A vast amount of money is being expended tn this particular area of education and I think we can reduce this expenditure dramatically so that it can go into the primary, elementary and secondary area of education. 5~5C

April 25, 1973 Tape no. 1302 Pagel - MRW MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I would _ just like to have a word or two. I find myself in the unusual position of having to agree at least in part with the resolution. I have to say that the honourable member's resolution is well conceived, It is something with which we can agree. We can agree with the sentiments expressed in that resolution but what I do not agree with is the setting up of a select committee. I think education is too important to make a political football out of it. l see in this select committee all the earmarks of a political football.

It will allow the honourable member a forum to go around the country, parading his tired theories and his political bias and getting head­ lines at every possible opportunity. You see,the opposition tried it with safety education. No one is against safety. To be against safety is to be treasonable, practically. While we agree with safety education and driver safety, we do not agree with giving the honourable gentlemen opposite a forum. Nobody disagrees with education. In fact we wish the opposition were more educated themselves. We sincerely hope that some day there may be a more educated opposition. MR.

PECICFORD: the opposition? HR. CARTER: Why cannot we have a select committee to educate A point well taken. The honourable member for Green Bay suggests that we could have a select committee put together to educate the opposition. However, I feel that they are already educated far beyond their ability. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. CARTER: That is the definition of an egghead, Mr, Speaker, someone who is educated far beyond his ability. In fact, a quotation from Shakespeare springs to mind. Whenever I think of the honourable ~entlem.an from Bell Island, a quotation from Shakespeare springs