Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 52 (35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-52

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Session ·T hirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL XLII No. 52· 1 :30 p.m., THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRE TT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIL LI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary. Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GI LLESHA MMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon . MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

2261 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, Aprll 29, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Brian Lamirande, Annette Lamirande, Janice Lamirande and others requesting the Fami ly Services m"mister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. *** Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of J. Kendall, Rose-Marie Gieni, B. G.

Nunn and others urging the government of Manitoba to consider keeping the Misericordia Hospital open as an acute care facility. * * * Ms. Jean Friesen (Woiseley) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Nancy Hilliard, Rob Hilliard, Joanne Swayze and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honou rable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 15 ESL students.

They are from the Sir William Osler School . They are under the direction of Judy Johnson. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Asslnlbolne River Diversion Federal Environmental Review Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Mr. Speaker, we have been raising questions in this Chamber since April of 1991 to the government on the Assiniboine diversion project.

We have raised questions about the scoping of the proposal, the magnitude of the proposal and the need for federal-provincial, basin-wide reviews. We felt that the project affects the federal Fisheries Act, the Navigable Waters Act and potentially the First Nations Long Plains, all of which come under federal jurisdiction, based on precedent from the Oldman River and the Rafferty-Alameda, all criteria that would precipitate a federal-provincial environmental assessment. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a question I have asked him in his Estimates and Question Period before.

Will he agree to have a federal-provincial environm ental assessment to deal with the total basin-wide concerns of the proposed Assiniboine diversion project? Hon. Glen Cummings (Mini ster of Environmen t): Mr. Speaker, we have entered into the provincial process ·m term s of the Clean En vironm en t Commission review. The member knows full well that the federal authorities will make a decision based on their criteria whether or not they believe there needs to be work done that they require for their-any permitting requirements that they would have. Mr.

Speaker, this is not any different than a numb er of other projects that have been undertaken, and it will be handled by the book. Asslnlbolne River Diversion Legal Opinion Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier knows, in his Estimates, I have asked him, on the one hand, how can we have a position about the downstream impact of Ra ffert y-A lam eda and not have the same com parable position for federal-pro vincial environmen tal assessments on the Assiniboine diversion projects for communities upstream and downstream on the Assiniboine basin proposal?

I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the decisions that have been made on the Oldman River-again a project to divert water from the water system for a few users affecting other users-in light

2262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 93 of the decision that has been made by the federal courts on Rafferty-Alameda, will he now tell us whether he has a legal opinion that will substantiate the proposed way the government is going, and that is to proceed on a provincial study without a federal-provincial assessment? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier) : It is interesting that this born-again environme ntalist, who was part of a governmen t that did not conduc t a public environment al assessment review on the biggest project in the history of this province, the Limestone Generating Station, just absolutely swept it aside with no public environme ntal assessment review, is no w star ting to becom e an exper t on the requiremen ts for the federal intervention in this. The federal government has lawyers; they have a department that is charged with the responsibility of meeting the requirements of their act.

It is the federal government that must decide whether or not this project meets the criteria under their act for a federal review. It is not this government that makes that decision; it is the federal government. If he knew anything about environmen tal assessment, he should at least understand that. *

(1335) Mr. Doer: I asked the Premier a simple question: Does he have a legal opinion? We know that the federal government's inaction on the Rafferty-Alameda, the Conservative federal governme nt's inaction on the Oldman River and the provin cial Conser vative governments in both Saskatchewan and Alberta were violating the law and the courts had to come in and say that a federal environme ntal asse ssment was necessary. So I am only dealing with past history in western Canada.

I ask the Premier again: Does he have a legal opinion to justify proceeding on a unilateral basis with the Manitoba environm ental assessment? Mr. Fllmon: The process does not work that we proceed on a unilateral basis. The process works that the project is put out for review by both levels of government under their acts as to whether or not it requires a public environmental assessment and review, and we have already determined that obviously it does under our act and we are giving it that review.

The federal government has the responsibility to do the same thing, and the federal government are very fully aware ofthe issue of Rafferty-Alameda, of the Oldman River dam, of all of those projects. Obviously their lawyers are very conscious of what their legal responsibilities are, and they have court cases to ensure that they are document ed as to what their requ irem en ts are. The federal government will ma ke that decision as their act calls for, Mr. Speaker. Asslnlbolne River Diversion Information Release Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): A new question to the Premier.

Since 199 1 there have been biol ogis ts talking about the im pact downstream in Selkirk; there have been people in Brand on-in fact, I believe the City Council of Brandon passed a motion opposing this proposal. There are people wh o have been raising legitimate concerns on the Assiniboine diversion project and its upstream and downstream impact. The government just made a statement about unilateral action.

Well, the City of Winnipeg today, another user of this water, has stated that Manitoba Environment has un ilaterally decided that the Pembina Valley project was not in a position to respo nd to certain issues raised by many interveners and therefore that material would not be available for the proposed environment al hearings. I would like to ask the Premier again: Will this material be available to all interveners and will we have a proper environmental assessment, or are we going to have unilateral action by the Manitoba Environment department as cited? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minis ter of Environment ): Mr.

Speaker, the member is misrepresenting the process. The fact is that information will be made available in response to the questions. That will be part of the process. The concern that the member continually wants to raise from that side of the House about whether or not there is some different way or some approach to this review that we have ignored is totally wrong. We are taking every precaution. We are cognizant of any concerns that might be raised around this issue and we will take very great care to make sure that the commission responds appropriately, and that is the position I have taken from the start. '

April 29, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2263 Hearing Postponement Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we recall the la st ma jo r se ts of recomme ndations from the Clean Environment Commis sion to the government. I would ask the government again, that consistent with previous studies on Selkirk by independent biologists, the city is saying the reduction of these target flows places progressively greater stress on the pollution-control efforts of the city and that acceptability of waste-wate r treatment.

I would like to ask the government: In light of all their concerns in terms of the deficiency in the study now and the lack of information, will the government be holding hearings downstream in othe r communi ties, as we have asked before, and will the government halt this hearing process until all the information is available so that all the basin-wide data that is necessary to review this project is available for decision making? *

(1340) Hon. Glen Cummings (Min ister of Environmen t): Mr. Speaker, I have said consistently that the comm ission made the recommen dation for the hearing sites based on the concerns and the presentations that they had. The number of concerns and presentations that were presented from the city of Winnipeg and the town of Selkirk were very small in number, and it was deemed to be appropriate that the hearing sites could be located in Portage and the Shellmouth in respect to the Assiniboine River. The memb er raises the qu estion about the condition of the wate r at Selkirk.

He knows full well that we have been the only government that has made some progress towards cleaning up the rivers going through the city of Winnip eg. His admin istration ignored it for a decade. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we passed The Environment Act to take away the City of Winnipeg's exemption that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) had left in place when he was Minister of Environment. This is not going to deal with the problems raised in the study.

I would like to ask the government again: In light of the fact that the city is saying that this will have a significant impact on the flow regimes and users along the entire river, including the reaches through Winnipeg and beyond Winnipeg and that these conclu sions are no t available from the environmental impact study that has been done to date, will the government stop this process and make sure that all the material and data that is necessary on the significant impacts is considered by the Clean Environment Comm ission and that it has the credibility of commu nities and people in communi ties upstream like the people of Brandon and downstream like the people of Winnipeg and Selkirk?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, these are all issues that will be on the table in front ofthe commission in terms of the request for information. If there is information that is not seen to be complete, the commis sion will ask those who are making the request to ma ke sure that it is answered, or the appropriate licences will not be possible. The Department of Natural Resources is working consistently to provide additional information to the requests from the commission.

The proponents have consistently been brought back to the table to provide additional information as a result of the request that we have received as a result of the publication of the guidelines. Mr. Speaker, this will be a complete and open hearing process. Social Assistance Child Care Subsidies Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister responsible for Family Services. I have a constituent of mine who has just recently been offe red a job. She is receivi ng social assistance. This particular individual cannot afford to have a nonsu bsidized daycare spot.

In an atte mpt to try to find a spot, she has been unsuccessful and, unfortunately, it looks like she is going to have to turn down this particular job. My question to the minister, Mr. Speaker, is: How does the government save money by keeping someone on social assistance as a direct result of cutting back on subsidized child care spaces? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minis ter of Family Services): Mr. Speak er, we have ex plai ned before, the changes that we have instituted in Child Day Care with this budget, that we have had to cap the numb er of subsidized spaces that government can afford.

We had som e 10,000 childr en in

2264 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MA NITOBA April 29, 19 93 subsidized care within the last year. By attrition, we are going to move that down to 9,600. If the individual that the member represents would need some assistance, I would assure him that we have staff at the daycare office that would assist in trying to help out. Mr. Lamour eux: Mr. Speaker, I will definitely pass on the name. Again.

I would ask the minister to answer the question in a more direct fashion by saying, how does a government justify having individuals remain on social assistance because there are no subsidized daycare spots that are out ther e in order to help them get off of social assistance? How can you put money- Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that we will do everything we can to assist people who have a job offer to leave the social assistance program . We are limiting the number of subsidized spaces this year.

There is always a graduation process from daycare as those children move into the pub lic school system. I would encourage the member, if he wishes to speak to me privately, we can assign somebody from the daycare office to assist that person to see if we can facilitate a subsidized spot. *

(1345) Child Care Centres Subsidized Spaces-Flexibility Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, to the minist�r: Some communities experience an enormous change in residence and, therefore, in the use of daycare facilities. This use may be as a result of seasonal jobs, school year, et cetera. Will the minister consider adopting a more flexible approach in the number ofda ycare spaces available in those areas where the use of the daycares varies substantially from season to season? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minis ter of Family Services): I would invite the member to perhaps come to Estimates in the near future where we talk in more detail about the daycare budget and the daycare system. Again, we were looking at some additional licensed spaces and, again, I would offer to act as a conduit. If the member wants to bring me that information, I will put his constituent in touch with the daycare office to see if we can assist him . Provincial Court Judge Justice Department Review Ms. Becky Barrett (Welli ngton) : Mr.

Speaker, not once, not twice, but three times in the last nine months, a provincial court judge has shown an appalling lack of sensitivity when it comes to a wide range of situations: child abuse, domestic violence and now sexual assault. On March 26 after the second incident, the Minister of Justice stated he was reviewing the transcript and the issues involved to see just what is the appropriate action that ought to be taken by the Department of Justice with respect to the judge in this matter. Now, clearly, nothing has happened.

When will the Minister of Justice take action to ensure that this judge will no longer hear these kinds of cases? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the latest news report setting out the latest case that has been of some concern compounds my concern about the role that this particular judge is playing. Obviously, the Depar tment of Justice disagrees with the findings in this latest case. The Department of Justice is appealing the matter as well as the other matter.

With regard to the judge himself and the role that he has played, I have instructed my department that I expect them on Monday to have reviewed transcripts into these matters and to have placed before me options for where we might go from here. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, well, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice why he did not have that kind of imm ediate timetable of three days after the second incident. What kind of assurances can the Minister of Justice give the women and children because these are the people who are being abused by this provincial court judge?

What assurances can he give the women and children of Manitoba that between now and the time he deals with these options, women and children will not come before this judge and his docket? Mr. McCrae: I do not think the honourable member should be prea ching to this government, Mr. Speaker, about a commitment towards the eradication of this kind of behaviour in our society. In a com prehensive way, this government has taken this issue head-on and we have gone head-on with the judic iary and with well -known media comment ators and others in our defence of the zero

April 29, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MA NITOBA 2265 tolerance policy of this gove rnm ent towards violence in our society. So I do not need to take any lessons from the honourable memb er who supports a party that did diddly-squat in the num ber of years that it had to do something about this terrible societal problem. That being said, other than supporting that particular kind of political party, I have no criticism for the honourable member, because of the interest that she has shown in this and appropriately so. * (1 350) Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, when will the Minister of Ju stice actu ally star t im plem enting the recomme ndations of the Pedlar review dealing with the education of the judicial body in the province of Manitoba, and when will he make sure that not anothe r woman or child appears before that provincial court judge? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, the reason I am troubled about the latest news is that we have indeed made significant progress here in Manitoba in the area of education for the judiciary. I can not help but-if we find in today's news that we appear to have had a setback.

But on the other hand, education for the judic iary is something that is happening today, something the New Dem ocrats cut in the 19 88 budget, something we have restored and something we have increased money for over the years. So it is not the honourable memb er's intention, it is her tone when she raises her question; this tone of righteous indignation which is so incorrect. You cannot describe a New Democrat in those terms because it is not right. They are hypocrites when it comes to this kind of an issue. So the point- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Justice, in response to some very straightforward questions, was skating on some very thin ice in terms of bein g parliame ntary, and I think he just went through the ice when he referred to this memb er as being a hypocrite. That appea rs on both lists, has been ruled as unparliame ntary. The tone I think was very clear, because the minister tried to politicize what were very nonpolitical questions asked on behalf of the women and children of Manitoba. I ask that he withdraw that comment. Mr.

McCrae: In my zeal to promote zero tolerance I used language that I should not use, and I am sorry for that. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable member for that. Mr. McCrae: But I would like to say- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. That is fine. The honourable minister has withdrawn the commen ts. The honourable minister, to finish his response. *** Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Speaker, we view this matter very seriously and I have told my department that I expect by Monday to have appropriate options available to me beyond the normal course of the appeal that we have already stated that we are going to proceed with, and if there are further options available I will know about it Monday and we will proceed from there. St. Boniface Hospital Bed Closures Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan) : Mr. Speaker, we understand today that a further 39sur gical beds are to be closed at St. Boniface Hospital, to be replaced by day surgery beds.

Can the minister confirm whether the closings of these 39 beds are in addition to the 38 surgical beds which he announced would be closed on November 18 , 19 92 at Health Scien ces Centre and St. Boniface, or are these additional beds in addition to the 38 he announced in November? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, the information that I have received from St.

Boniface Hospital indicates that over the past, oh, roughly 12 to 16 months, they have initiated in some of their surgical programs a new method of patient management wherein it delays or eliminates the need for admission prior to surgery, and that has reduced the length of stay significantly. The experience that they have had over the past 12 to 16 months has led them to the conclusion that they can maintain their level of surgical activity with fewer beds, and they intend to announce in the very near future, it is my understanding, the process of retiring those surgical beds from service. Mr.

Speaker, I want to reiterate and reinforce that this has been on the basis of some 12 to 15 months of experience in surgical program that has led them

2266 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MA NITOBA April 29, 19 93 to the conclusion they can offer quality patient care with fewer surgical beds. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the mi nister remains the same as in the initial question, because I think the minister did not deal with the question. Are the 39 beds to be retired or to be closed by St. Boniface Hospital in addition to the 38 surgical beds that the minister announced would be closed in November between St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre?

Are they in addition, or are they part of the beds that the minister announced in the original November announcement? Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, I will clarify this for my honourable friend if my assump tion is incorrect, but I believe that this is another group of surgical beds as a result of, as my honourable has indicated, not-for-a dm ission surgeries and probably more important, a new process of admission patient managemen t to lower the length of stay, so that they can otter the same level of service they have in past years with fewer surgical beds. * (1 355) Mr.

Ch omlak: My iinal supplem entary: I am wondering why this is taking place now and how this relates, Mr. Speaker, to the report of the provincial surgery committee which is scheduled to report May 1. Is this in relation to the surgery committee? Is it co-ordinated through that committee, and why is this taking place prior- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, you know, from time to time, I get troubled where my honourable friend comes from and from whence his concerns come.

Surely, my honourable friend recognizes that as mo re and more su rgical proced ures are acc om plish ed in not-for- admission, where advances in technology such as laparoscopic surgery become the modus operandi, so that, for instance, gall bladder surgeries are now very, very short stays, impr oving the qual ity of outcome, improving the quality of the surgical procedure and the discomfort to the patient- all of these trends are happening in Canada, across Canada, in North America, and indeed the free world, and they are all leading to a lesser demand on surgical beds. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as these processes of change come into play, hospitals will respond accordingly and reduce the number of- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Sexual Assault Identity Release Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

I think all member s of this House have applauded and su pported the initiatives that have been taken at provincial and federal levels which will prevent the release of a convicted criminal when that person has been convicted of an assault, because what in essence they are attempting to do is to protect the victim, not the criminal.

Yesterday, we heard of an incident in which an individual has been convicted of abusing his ste pdaught er, has been given an 18 -m onth sentence, and the judge has not only refused to divulge his name but has put a court order on his occupation as well, despite the fact that the victim believes that this individual's name should be released. Can the min ister tell the House how it is determined that the protection of a convicted sexual abuser's name and identity is made? Hon. James McCrae (Min ister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for this question.

I think what usually happens is that for fear of making public the identity of a victim of sexual abuse or assault, the name of the accused is often ordered to be withheld. In this particular case, there are certain factors that come into it that I think are somewha t different from the usual case where this happens. One of the newspapers is looking at this with a view to having a review of the judge's decision on that matter and so is the Crown. *** Mr. Speaker: Jus t prior to reco gnizing the honourable memb er for River Heights, the Chair is having a little bit of difficulty at this point in time.

The honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) in her questions and, indeed, the honourable Leader of the second opposition party is following along the same vein.

April 29, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MA NITOBA 2267 A rule that is very rarely used- and I just think at this point in time I w ould like to quote it for all honourable memb ers. It is Beauchesne's 493. It says: "All references to judges and courts of justice of the nature of personal attack and censure have always been considered unparliame ntary .... " I just caution all honourable mem bers in the phraseology that you might be using. Mrs.Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, that is why I was very careful not to mention any names. In fact, we are under a court injunction not to do so. Public Protection Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): With a supplem entary question to the minister: There certainly is public knowledge that the individual who has been convicted in this case has as his normal function a profession which deals with other young people. Can the mi nister tell the House what follow-up is being done by the Department of Justice to ensure that future victims are protected? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I think basically we are dealing with the same question as previously.

Because of what the honourable member has said about the occupation of this person and the likelihood of this person coming in contact with young people, that is precisely the reason that the Crown is looking at the ruling in this case with a view perhaps to appealing it if that is possible so that no one is going to be unwittingly in contact with someone who has been found to be a danger. * (1 400) Reduced Workweek Essential Services Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) : Mr.

Speaker, the government is sending out yet another letter, this time from the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commis sion, in regard to Bill 22, attempting to explain to the many people in the public sector what will be happenin g with this bill which, by the way, has only just been tabled in the Legislature for second reading and has not been passed and probably will not pass for some time. One of the questions that is being asked, and I ask this either to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Comm ission or the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) who brought in this bill, is, it refers once again to the fact that, in this case, institutional, seasonal and essential positions will not be included under the seven days off in the summer and three days off without pay in the Christmas period outlined for other employees. I would like to ask the minister if there is a definition yet of exactly what an essential service is. Hon. Darren Praznlk (Mini ster responsible for The Civil Service Act): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I think with respect to sea sonal operations of government, I am sure all members of this House wou ld want this partic ular program to utilize common sense.

Certainly, in some departments such as the Department of Natural Resources, the De par tmen t of Agricultur e , De par tment of Highways, where a very im portant part of their function is during the summer period, we have the flexibility in this model to ensure that certain parts of their operation that are essential in the operations of the government will operate during this period and the employees affected will take other time during the year. I can tell him that I have had discussions with several of the employee associations that would be affected, and they are ve ry amenable to this particular process. Mr.

Ashton: Mr. Speaker, common sense would indicate that if you talk about essential services, you know what you are talking about. I would like to ask again, because that is the question, and to either the Mini st er respon sible fo r the Civil Service Comm ission or Minister of Rnance who introduced the bill: What is an essential service? What is not going to be affected by this? We have already seen courts being dealt with one way, liquor comm issions the rest. What is an ess en tial service? When will we know what services are going to be included in that? Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to just separate somewhat the question of the member for Thompson because there is a difference between seasonal operations whose operations have to go forward during the summer season particularly with respect to Na tu ral Reso ur ces, Agr iculture, Highways, for exam ple, and essential services. I tell him with respect to some essential services, for example, in Health, et cetera, that we also have the model of Easter Monday when the public service is not working and there is a set of operational rules

2268 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MA NITOBA April 29, 19 93 that apply on Easter Monday, for example, and various days between Christmas and New Year's. In each department we are working out those rules currently and how this will apply in those areas, and I think if he were to look at those models with respect to essential services, he would have a good idea of the guideline that is being worked on now. Mr. Asht on: Mr. Speaker, the public of Manitoba and also the civil servants are asking many qu estions. They want to know when will the government give a list of what services are essential or not.

Are conservation officers going to be considered essential services or not. Are social workers or are court systems? When will the minister give us a list of exactly what services will and will not be available under this provision? Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Speaker, the member for Thompson-and I say this with all due respect-! think is somew hat confusing seasonal operations with essential. We provide essential services in government on Easter Monday. We provide it during the Christmas season,

whereas seasonal services-<:ertainly, I would not think that membe rs opposite would expect that cer tain seasonal services in the Departments of Highways, Agriculture , for exam ple, Natural Resources, not take place in the summer which is their busy time, when those days can be taken off at other times of the year. So I just point out to him that he should separate essential from seasonal, because they are very different. Education System Reform Report Release Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, over the past two days, we have seen the Minister of Education destroy any credibility that she may have had in this House with her blatant disregard for the facts both in terms of actions and in terms of her words. First, it was the letter to Mr. Hobbs of Flin Flon where she claimed to have funded education above inflation over the last five years, and then yesterday she was given the opportunity to clarify precisely when she received the report on education reform and why she kept it secret for the last number of months. Again, she chose the devious route in this House.

Now, I ask the minister to be straightforward in the House today. When did she first see the report on education reform? When was it sent- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, let me answer a few of the questions that the member has raised. First of all, the letter sent to the me mber's constitue nt was absolutely correct. The government share of funding for education support to schools has in fact increased by 36 percent, not the number s that member used. So that, Mr. Speaker, was correct.

Now, he asks when did I see the first report, and the member did not ask that question yesterday. I am happy to tell you, I saw the report of the task force in Nove mber and there were a number of issues which had to be dealt with in the intervening time. I have a great number of issues that I am happy to speak to him about, and let me begin by saying that, as I said yesterday, the report was delivered in English, the report was to be translated, the translation was to be accu rate in tone. There was no difficulty with the service that we received in the issue of translation by any means.

The issue was that the comm ittee memb ers had to approve that the translation was accurate and was consistent with the English copy. Property Taxes Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin) : Mr. Speaker, the min ister had ano ther oppor tun ity to be straightforward and chose not to again. I am going to give her another opportunity, Mr. Speaker.

Can the minister explain how she can truthfully write in her letter of April 23 to the Riverview School Communi ty Association that the province is comm itted to doing what it can to restrain increases in property taxation, when she is part of a government that has increased property taxes by $75 to every household in this province? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Trai ning): Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, first of all, agai n, in relation to the report, that this government received the sign off from the task force finally on March 29, 19 93. From that point then, the report had to go to print.

The report was then released as soon as possible following the printing.

April 29, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2269 In relation to the issue of taxation, I think that we have expressed our concerns through Bill 16 to protect the interests of the taxpayer in this province. Mr. Plohman: Missed again, Mr. Speaker, missed again. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask this minister today, and she has another opportunity to be straightforward- Mr. Speaker: With your question, please. Department of Education and Training Supplementary Estimates Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): Will she tell us, since her Estimates are only 1 0 days away or so, precisely when she is going to table the Supplemen tary Estimates for the Department of Education, so we can see exactly- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I look forward to tabling the Suppleme ntary Estimates, as I look forward to the Esti ma tes process with my honourable friend. That will occur as soon as possible. Point of Order Mr. Plohman: On a point of order, missed again, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of order. Emergency Room Physicians Patient Care Monitoring Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. We have been receiving some phone calls from constituents who are concerned about the strike of the em ergency room physicians at five major hospitals. The strike has been going on for 48 hours. Initially, the impact may have been very low, but now that the weekend is approaching things could get worse . Can the Minister of Health tell us: Who is monitoring the patient care during this time? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I appreci ate my honour able friend's question because the situation is, to date, quite stable. We, on a daily basis, contact all of our major urban hospitals in Winnipeg to find out whether there were any difficulties or deficiencies in the process, and so far, Sir, we have had a reasonably effective alternate and contingency system working for Manitobans who need emergency services.

We are redoubling our efforts tomorrow at two o'clock to assure that as we approach the weekend, we hope we can manage as effectively as the facilities have mana ged over the last two days. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, one concern was raised that patients are un able to get proper information about where they have to go and get their treatment. Can the Minister of Health tell us who is ultimately responsible to make sure that information is given properly to the patient? Also, is there some phone number the patients can get hold of so that they do not have to go twice to the same hospital? * (14 1 0} Mr.

Orchard: Let me deal with my honourable friend's question in two parts. First of all, we have a substantial and good working relationship with the Winnipeg amb ulance system so that any Winnipeggers, any Manitobans who are needi ng to access a ho spit al via ambulance, that they are fully aware of the status at each of the hospitals and will make the appropriate trip to the right hospital to deal with the needs of their patient.

Secondly, in terms of those who will come on their own, either have a friend or a family member drop them off or bring them to emergency, the advice has been consistent that they check with the hospital to assure that they can receive the services there and have that aclvice- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Transportation Costs Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): One of the concerns raised by patients is who is going to be paying for the transfers between these hospitals during this strike time. Can the minister tell us who is ultimately responsible to pay those costs? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Min ister of Health): We recognize that there may be some difficulties that emerge, but the standard method of payment now for instance, third-party coverage for ambul ance service-will cover the costs, it is our understanding. There is the issue of interhospital transfer, which is currently covered under existing policies.

2270 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 93 If there are difficulties that emerge, we would be sensitive to trying to resolve those, Sir. Provincial Sales Tax Impact Base Broadening Mr. Le onard Evans (Br andon Eas t) : On Saturday, May 1, families and children in this province will become acutely aware of the negative impact of this government's budget when the 7 percent sales tax will be placed on hundreds of new items including children's clothing, baby supplies, meals, take -out foods and sna ck s .

The newspapers have already said that their sales will be hurt by this tax when it is applied to them. Can the Minister of Finance advise this House whether he has any studies or information showing to what extent consumer spending will be reduced by the imposition of the 7 percent sales tax? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I thought the member would rise and congratulate us for holding the sales tax, which he says is so regressive, at the second lowest in Canada. I acknowledge that the government has had to broaden the base somewhat.

We did so because we wanted to collect sales tax on those purchases outside of Canada, and the only way that the federal government would collect on our behalf at the borders is if we expanded the base, no differently than the Province of New Brunswick which had to do the very same thing, Mr. Speaker, if the federal government was going to collect tax at the border. So I would think that the member would be happy as far as his question.

Indeed, if the sales tax extensio n itself is going to bring forward an additional $20 million or $25 million, that is then how much, obviously, will be less able to be spent by the people of the province. Mr. Speaker : The honour able memb er for Brandon has time for one very short question. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, the people of Manitoba will not be very happy with this- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question, please. Revenue Growth Mr. Le on ard Evans (Br andon Ea st) : Mr. Speaker, what is happening to his retail sales tax revenues?

I am particularly talking about the first three months of this year, because I note that retail sales have declined by 1. 5 percent in February, and, year to date, Manitoba is nine out of 1 0 provinces in terms of retail sales. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I wish the member had given me some notice. I certainly would like to provide him with the very latest specific detail on that question. Certainly, over the last three months, sales tax revenue growth has maintained the forecast, which is slightly increased.

There is no doubt in the last month that there has been a slight decrease in the actuals, but over the course of the last several months, we continue to be on forecast. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On Wednesday, April 21 , 199 3, during debate on the second reading of Bill 16 , the Acting Speaker took under advisement a point of order raised by the acting government House leader, the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), about language used by the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

After interventions from the official opposition House leader and the honourable member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), the Acting Speaker took the matter under advisement. In reviewing Hansard, I note the member for Wellington said, "I can call that a lie, that statement ... that statement as it has been stated in this House and in public by memb ers of the government over the last five years is patently nottrue. " I quote again: "Some might even say it is a lie.w I have taken some time to consider this incident and to consider the use of the word "liew in this Chamber.

Thus far this session the word "liew has been used on December 7, and I quote: "I can stand anything but someone who is going to lie and manipula te the facts.w In that case, the word "liew was used in reference to a candidate in a provincial by-election. On April 7, the phrase "Would TV and the Free Press lie?w was used. On April 13 , the words • ... a budget which is couched again in the big lie that this government has maintainedw were spoken. In these cases, no objections were raised to the use of the word "lie.

" On June 4 and again on June 5, 19 91 , points of order were raised about the words "the big lie.w In both cases, I rule d the phrase was not unp arliamentary because it was not directed to any MLA or group of MLAs in particular.

April 29 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2271 I have, howe ver, on other occasions ruled the word "lie" out of order; December 5, 19 88, is one exam ple wher e the word "lies " was used in reference to the government and where I asked that it be withdra wn. Therefore, in regard to the point of order raised on April 21 , I am ruling based on the context in which they were used that the words used by the memb er for Wellington were unparliamen tary, and I am asking her to withdraw them.

I also wish to remind the House that, although some words may be unparliamentary one day and not the next, dependen t on context and other factors, the word "lie" and other words meaning the same thing are always unparliamen tary. * (1 420) Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I certainly, with the greatest of respect, take your ruling on my comments of April 21 to heart and withdraw the comments I made at that time. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable member for Wellington. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environmen t (Mr. Cumm ings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Family Services; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation.

COMMITTEE OF SUPP LY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chair person (Marcel Laurendeau) : Go od afte rnoon. Or der, please. Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of Family Services. When the comm ittee last sat, it had been considering item 3. (b}( 1) on page 56 of the Estimates book. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, before I direct some questions to the minister, I would like to make a brief statement to the entire comm ittee and say that since we last met I have had a chance to read Hansard of Monday, April 26.

At this time I would like to offer an unqualified withdrawal of my remarks that appear on page 2067 of Hansard, the reason being that there is an unwritten convention here that we do not put on the record conversations that we have with individual member s which are considered of a private nature. Since I had a chance to read in print what I actually said here, I have reconsidered, and I am accepting the minister's invitation to withdraw those remarks. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I thank the honourable member for that statement. We are dealing with 3.(

b) Income Maintenance Programs (1 ) Social Allowances $236,802. Mr. Martindale: I believe it was the last time we were here that I was asking questions of the minister about a brief, and it is qu ite possible that the minister has not seen this brief since I have had a chance to look it up. It was originally addressed to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). I am referring to An Action Plan for Food Secu rity for Manitobans by the Nutrition and Food Security Network of Manitoba. I would like to give the minister a copy of this brief just in case he or his staff do not have one.

I would like to ask a few questions on some of their recommendations and then give the minister a copy of this brief. He also asked who were the authors of the brief, and there are some organizations that are listed: the Manitoba Association of Registered Dietitians; the Man itoba Association of Home Econom ists Winn ipeg ; the College of Family Physicians, Mani toba Branch ; the Ma nitoba Medic al Association; Winnipeg Harvest; and the Man itoba Anti-Poverty Organization.

I would just like to ask questions on a few of their recommenda tions because there are many, many recommendations, the first one of page 4, having to do with policy and legislation. They recommend that "a com mon metho d of calculating social allowance rates at both the provincial and mu nicipal levels that reflects the true cost of basic needs" be implem ented.

2272 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 93 Now I wonder if this is not already happening in that we have a standardization of social assistance rates. So I guess that would be my first question. Is this already the case that there is just one method of calculating the rates since the province is only paying standardized rates to both mu nicipalities and to provincial recipients? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minis ter of Family Services): That was the intent of the legislation, and we are certainly moving in that direction. Mr.

Martindale: The next recommendation is to "increase provincial social allowance rates to meet actual feeding costs for infants." I would like to ask the minister if he and his staff will review the considerable data that was provided by this coalition and see if there cannot be improvements to the rates by the provincial government for the cost of feeding infants. Mr. Gllleshammer: Staff in our department are always eager to review any reputable data that comes forward. Mr. Martindale: Then I would like to give the minister a copy of the brief just in case he does not have one.

Next, I have a copy of a letter addressed to the Prem ier (Mr. Rlm on) from the Rural Municipality of Thompson. It has to do with provincial social assis tance recipie nts who are being den ied pro vin cial bene fits and handed over to the mu nicipality. They are told that they can appeal. The mu nicipality is saying in the meantime they are the responsibili ty of the mu nicip alit y . The mu nicipality is objecting to a number of things. One is having to pick up the cost in the short term, and, secondly, not having the resources to provide any kind of employment training to ma ke these people emp loyable.

I think the basic point they are making is that these people have been prev iously considered un emp loyable. All of a sudden they are being terminated from the provincial system and handed over to the Rural Mun icipality of Thompson, who are saying that they do not have the resources to help these people to become emp loyable. So I would like to share this letter with the minister as well, and he could respond now or at some later time. Mr.

Gllleshammer: Well, as the member is aware, the province is responsible for the unem ployable caseload and the mu nicipal tier of government in Manitoba is responsible for the employables. * (1 430) Occasionally there is a discussion between our government and mu nicipal governmen ts as to where a client should access services, and there is a review process that takes place, and there is a paneling procedure that takes place. I can assure you that we, in our relat ionship with rur al mu nicipalities and other mu nicipalities, try to be as fair as possible.

I think that the member probably would understand that in the employable category, there may be various levels of employability in terms of the talents that people bring forward. We do have an opportunity to have discussions on that topic, and there is a mechanism to resolve those. The difficulty sometimes occurs when there is a disagreement on the final determination. As a result, there is a way to adjudicate that and the process, by and large, works. If rural mun icipalities commun icate to my office, we always would review those cases. Mr.

Martindale: Could the minister tell us if there is any change in the use of vouchers by rural mu nicipalities, and mu nicipalities in general? Is the rate of use of vouchers relatively constant over the last few years, or is there any increase or decrease in their use? Mr. Gllleshammer: We are not aware of any changes there. I would be interested in knowing the memb er's thoughts on the use of vouchers, though. Mr.

Martindale: I think my thoughts are limited to my understanding of the rules, that normally they are used where people are deemed to be incapable of using cash responsibly, although I su spect, although I have very little evidence, that some people in rural areas find it objectionable to be put on vouchers because then it means that their friends and neighbours and storekeepers know that they are on social assistance.

I guess that is part of my concern, that if mu nicipalities are using vouchers regularly, then the fact that people are on assistance is no longer confidential, given what happens in the small rural commu nities. Mr. Gllleshammer: But the member wou ld certainly understand the importance of someone accessing that voucher to provide food for their family. It would be important that the basic needs of the family are met, rather than having the more fluid form of assistance perhaps be used for other less desirable products.

April 29, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2273 Mr. Martindale: I have no objection to them being used if someone thinks that there is a reason that vouchers should be used in place of a cheque. My only concern would be if it is a policy of some mu nicipalities to use vouchers routinely which could be seen as punitive or even identifying people who are on social assistance, there fore making it less desirable and possibly even encouraging them to leave the mu nicipality and move to Winnipeg say. Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, I do not think that is a common outc ome.

I know that we do not really recommend the mu nicipalities one way or the other, whether they use the cheque from the mu nicipality as opposed to vouchers, and often I think they are prob ably in the best position to make those det ermi na tions. I would point out that in emergencies we often will have a voucher system used at that government level and sometimes in remote areas as well. So I guess it is an issue that we have not taken a position on either way and allowed the municipalities who are responsible for that tier of social allowances to determine what is in the best interest at that time. Mr.

Martindale: Could the mi nister tell me if it is correct that pregnant women in the third trimester are eligible for an extra food allowance? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am told that the answer to that is yes. Mr. Martindale: Has any consideration been given to giving extra food allowance for pregnant women in the first and second trimesters? Mr. Gllleshammer: What the memb er is saying is that we should have higher rates at that time, and the rates apparently are adjusted at a particular time in the person's pregnancy. It appears that has been an adequate way of dealing with this.

I am further informed that if a doctor prescribes some special diet, we will meet the costs. Mr. Martindale: Num erous groups that lobby us would like to see provincial recipients be eligible for a telephone. I would like to ask the minister if any costing of this has been done. It is usually groups in Winnipeg that advocate this. I suspect that the cost would be considerable, but I am wondering if an estimate has been made of the potential cost to the system. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we do have an estimate, but it would be of considerable cost to the system.

It is an issue that has been brought forward by the three lobby groups that I have met with on a regular basis: the Social Allowan ce Coalition of Manitoba, WORD and the MAPO organization. The estimates are estimates because a fair percentage of the recipients now have telephones. If we were to pick up that cost, it would be somewher e around $3.5 million. In talking with the advocacy groups they do have a list of what the next item would be, and occasionally we get requests that say that all recipie nts should have a deepfreeze.

There could be strong argume nts made about that in terms of long-range planning and preserving frozen foods and so on and so forth. Others come forward with other ideas. So telephones is one of the items on that list. Mr. Martindale: My understanding is that currently some recipients are eligible for a telephone if they meet certain criteria or certain situations. One of those is if a woman is being harassed or abused or threatened.

I have been told that the onus seems to be on the client to prove that they have been threatened before they can get a telephone or even that they have to prove that they had already been abused. I would like to ask the minister if he could clarify the policy, please. Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, I might point out, on our particular caseload of some 27,000 cases we have approximately 18 ,000 of those cases that have a telephone number listed on their file. We do provide phones for three different reasons. One of them is safety.

Certainly, there is a discussion that takes place about the particulars of the case before that request is acceded to. Mr. Martindale: I have been talking to a numb er of employees in the City of Winnipeg social services dep artment who found themse lves in a very awkward position because they were advising their clients not to take their income tax return to a tax discounter, or get a cashback imm ediately, but rather to file with Revenue Canada and wait for the refund, because they would get more money that way. * (1 440) However, the rules changed on April 1.

My understanding of this problem is that the result was that those who went immediately for their cash back got more money than those who waited because the rules changed on April 1. I think that was a most unfortunate situation for the workers, but particularly for the clients. I am wondering if the minister could tell us when the decision was made around the

2274 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA April29, 19 93 changes and what the rationale was for changing at April 1. Mr. Gllleshammer: Budgetary decisions are part of a budgetary process that started for us back in Augu st, and those decisions are made during discussions between the department and central government in terms of the decision making. Of course, the decisions are announc ed when the Finance minister (Mr. Manness) tables the budget. Mr.

Martindale: Was the provincial government or were provincial ministers, like yourself, consulted by the federal government prior to their recent budget regarding the change of four GST rebates a year to two rebates a year? I believe this is going to negatively im pact particularly people on social assistance since they depend on tha t inc ome-not inco me, but reimbursement-a nd secondly, because the timing has been changed from four to two, the months in which the cheques arrive will be less timely for them.

Previously, they might have had help with Christmas bills and also with back-to- school supplies, but those two rebate cheques will no longer be arriving. The money will arrive with the other two cheques, but was this minister consulted on that change? Mr. Gllleshammer: The answer to that is no, but I can see that the member is now a firm proponent that money should be doled out on an even basis, perhaps a monthly basis like the tax credits in Manitoba. I can see that the arguments that we have put forward have persuaded him to again change his min d on this.

I appreciate your openness and the support on this because I think when we made that decision and made that announcement, we did so for the right reasons. While there is sometimes a little inconsistency that goes along with being in opposition, I am pleased that the member has come around to his senses and agreed that is a good way to do it. Mr. Martindale: I regret that I used the word "timely," because that was the word that the minister used in the previous debate on another topic. He is transferring it to this debate, and it is not relevant.

I would like to ask the minister if you have communicated with the federal Minister of Finance and objected to this change since it is going to adversely affect many people on the social assistance who are your responsibility. Mr. Glllesha mmer: I have not personally commun icated to him anything related to the budget, but our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and our Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) will be involved in discussions at that level and will be conveying the thoughts of our government. Mr.

Martindale: I have a copy of a letter from the Income Security division in Dauphin dated April 20, addressed to Tarty's Taxi at Skownan, Manitoba, regarding medical transportation, saying that there has been apparently a change in policy authorizing trips only on Tuesdays and Thursdays for medical appointments. I would like to know what the rationale is for this and whether this applies to every small communi ty or only to this commu nity. Mr. Gllleshammer: I am no t aware of that correspondence, but if the member would like to table it, we will have a look at it.

The fact of the matter is, we do provide transportation from certain communi ties to other centres where medical needs, dental needs, other professional needs to do with health are looked after. It is a very expensive proposition, and government historically, I think, has been very generous in supporting that type of transportation.

I would be pleased to look at the correspondence the member is tabling, and I would also suggest to him that I would be in favour of any manner in which we could economize on the transportation side if we can at the same time accommo date the health needs of those people who access the system. What I think we would like to move towards is determining whether that transportation for those health needs is for emergencies or whether they could be categorized as nonemergencies.

If there can be some savings to government by transporting nonemergency cases to that type of professional assistance on certain days of the week, I would certainly think that we would be in favour of that. So we have to make a distinction there on the needs of the individuals, but I can tell you that in the past the department, I think, has been very accommodating and very gen erous in having thos e people transported for those specific professional services. Mr.

Martindale: As a result of being asked to help a family who moved into Manitoba, I have some questions around the policy on social assistance providing money for the purchase of furniture. I would like to know, what is the current policy and how long has it been in place? Mr. Gllleshammer: We do have a policy on people who are arriving within the commu nity, and the

April 29, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2275 department's responsibi lity is to analyze their situation and see how we can best serve them. There are times when the department will advise that perhaps a furnished apartment should be taken. There are other times when it appears that this is a permanent move, a long-term move, and because of the needs of the family, part of the special needs could be for furnishings. So it comes down to a bit of a judgment call as to how those clients are served.

I might just give you a hypothetical situation, that if a fam ily moves to Manitoba and wants the services, needs the services of our department, the worker may determine that because they have moved here four or five times in the past four or five years where furnishings have been supplied, this time we may say: Because of your pattern, it appears, of moving in and out of the province, we would suggest a furnished apartment till you make a decision on whether you are going to stay here or not. So there is some flexibility there, and there is some judgment that workers in district offices can make. * (1 450) Mr.

Martindale: I am sorry I do not have Hansard here from a Question Period, but I believe that in response to one of my questions the min ister said, there is no firm policy in writing, it is up to the individual worker, which would correspond with what you are saying today. On the other hand, when we were trying to advocate on behalf of an individual, one of the senior staff in Income Maintenance said that the province will not pay until the person has been a resident for two or three months. Can you tell me which is the actual policy? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Well, again, the staff, the district office, need to make some determination on what the plans of that family really are. If there are long-term plans to remain in Manitoba to set up a permanent housing arrangement here, that is one thing. If the history of that particular family is such that they have frequently moved and that furnishings have been bought in the past, and then they get sold and they move back to another province, and then six months later, they are back here, the department is a little more wary about just what it is going to provide.

There are some general guidelines, but workers can use individual discretion on a case-by-case basis. Many of our experienced workers, I think, because of their experience, have some feel for what the appropriate decision in that particular case might be. So there is discretion that the case worker has. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us if there was a saving to the province as the result of standardization in the areas of CRISP and 55 Plus? It is my understanding that city social assistance is cost shared with the province. So, if the city drops programs, is there a saving to the provincial government?

Mr. Gllleshammer: There would appear to be an indirect savings in that if people do access the CRISP program, then it is deducted from their social allowances. So, if there was a jurisdiction that was paying the full social allowance plus the CRISP and that recipient discontinued the CRISP to receive the full funding from that municipality, there would be a savings to CRISP. Mr. Martindale: My understanding is that the result of standardization for the City of Winnipeg is a loss of about $2.2 million. Could the minister tell us ifthat was entirely provincial money or city money or what the share would be there?

Mr. Gllleshammer: The program of standardized rates started a few weeks ago, and the figure that the member is using is the city's estimate. We will not have firm figures on that, of course, till we get looking at the month-end figures in the coming months. Mr. Martindale: It is my understanding that city social assistance pays 20 cents on the dollar of their expenses, and the other 80 cents on the dollar would be cost shared 50-50 by the provincial and fede ral go vernmen ts. So, if a progr am is discontinued, can you not figure out the cost or the saving to the province? Mr.

Gllleshammer: You are right in that the city is responsible for a small portion of the social allowance, because it is cost shared by the province and by the federal government. That cost sharing is a little bit more complicated in that there is a different cost sharing with some mun icipalities depending on the balanced assessment that exists, but, by and large, municipalities are responsible for about 20 percent of the dollar spent in social allowances. What I am saying to the member is that if a family is accessing CRISP, and let me point out that the

2276 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 93 CRISP program was brought in and put in place for the group of people that we refer to as the working poor, this municipality chose to flow the CRISP or have people who are accessing CRISP not have it deducted from their social allowances. So we have an adjustment period that is going to take place here, that if these people continue to access the CRISP program, then it will be deducted from their social allowances. Mr. Martindale: I have a copy of the single-parent tam ilies report, which was prepared by the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

It is dated November 19 90; the covering letter or news release is dated April 22, 19 91 . My colleague the member for Wellin gton (Ms. Barrett) asked a question of the minister on December 9, 199 2, and, in response, the minister said, we will use that material to see how it fits with the provincial program and certainly decisions will be made in due course. Since the government has had this report for over two years, I wonder if the minister could tell us which recommenda tions have been implem ented and which ones have not and what progress is being made.

Are there some recommendations that are going to be implem ented in the short term and others in the long term , and if so, which are they? Mr. Gllleshammer: We would have to get to the specific recommendations that the memb er is referring to, but, as I said, in answer to an earlier question, the department readily accepts reports and documents that come forward from whatever source . That is part of the analysis that the department will use in determ ining rates and program changes.

I can tell you one of the program changes that came about as a result of reports like that is the fact we are allowing single parents, who are on the provincial social allowance roll, to maintain their health card as they move to em ployment. This has been an innovation in Manitoba that has been well received, and, again, an idea that had been around for a long, long time. We think that it is going to have a positive benefit for that particular group on provincial allowance, and we need some time to determine just how successful it is.

As I told the member the other day, my colleague in Saskatchewan and my colleague in British Columbia are very interested in that and are trying to convince their government and their Treasury Board and their colleagues that we should move in that direction. Mr. Martindale: I would be appreciative if the minister could reply to me in the future, hopefully the nea r futur e , on which recom me ndations the government plans to implement, which ones you are not going to implement, and what the rationale is for the ones you are not going to implement. Mr.

Gllleshammer: The ones we have already implemen ted the member will have knowledge of, and it is always difficult and risky to announce new initiatives until they have been approved. I guess I would have to ask the member to be patient and wait for our opportunity to officially announce them. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us if, as the result of this budget, there are any changes to the SOSAR program? My und erstanding is that SOSAR is for single parent women who are unable to go to university. I cannot remember what the acronym stands for. Mr.

Gl lle shammer: That was a special opportunities program that is part of the Department of Education. I guess the question would more appropriately be asked in those Estimates. Mr. Martindale: Is that one of the programs that has bee n transferred from Family Services to Education? * (1 500) Mr. Gllleshammer: No, that has been part of their programming before, and they take the lead on that program. Mr. Martindale: I have a copy of correspondence sent to the minister by the Manitoba InterFaith Immigr ation Council and also some newspaper articles by Marty Dolin, the executive director.

I am wondering if this is an appr opriate place to ask questions about funding to shelters. Mr. Gllleshammer: It is really under the Family Dispute line and we would have appropriate staff here. I might just comment that I do recall seeing the correspondence from that individual. Mr. Martindale: My next question is a general one about social assistance. If there is a greater demand for social assistance than this minister and Treasury Board have budgeted, where does that money come from? Do you have to take it out of

April 29, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2277 other parts of your budget or do you go back to Treasury Board for more funds? Mr. Gllleshammer: This is the one program that we have the statutory obligation to offer and, as a result, if we go over budget then that funding has to be provided, contrary to other jurisdictions, of course, that budget so much money and when the money runs out the program ends. We make some projections about the increase in the volume that we are going to anticipate and try to live within those targets, but if we do not we still have to find that additional money. Mr.

Martindale: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has indicated that there will not be supplementary budgeting. Is it correct to say that that does not apply to social assistance due to the reasons that the minister just gave? Mr. Gllleshammer: We will have to obviously flow money to people who need to access that safety net. That is an issue that we have always had to face at that particular time of the budget year. I can say we will meet our obligations. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition} : I apologize if this is somewhat repetitious, but unfortunately I had a school that I had to be at.

Is there a clear set of gui delines between municipalities and the province as to who gets mu nicipal assistance and who gets provincial assistance? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, there is. Mrs. Carstalrs: Is that information available to all municipalities? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, it is. Mrs. Carstalrs: Can that information be made available to the critics? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we can provide that the next day we meet. Mrs. Carstalrs: There is obviously some areas in which there is a dispute between the provincial government and municipalities as to which should be responsible.

I understand that the letter from Brian Schwartz was already tabled today indicating with respect to the appeal situation. Can the mi nister outline the major areas of disagreement between the two levels of govern ment as to which level of government should, in fact, be paying the social assistance costs? Mr. Gllleshammer: The lines are generally pretty clear that the disabled community and individuals who need to access the system in that area, the single mother s, are ou r responsi bili ty. Any employables are the responsibility of municipal government.

I think where we sometim es get into cases that need to be adjudicated are where there has been a change in the circumstances of perhaps someone's health to dete rmin e whether there has been improvement and they are now em ployable, or they were on the em ployable category and they now would fall onto the provincial roll. There is a medical panel that reviews those and adjudicates those. So that has not been a big area of dispute. Possibly more of a dispute area is the long-term employables who cannot find the training and who cannot find the em ployment.

I know at the last UMM council a mo tion was passed whereby one municipality brought forward a motion that said: If someone had been employed for 90 days, they should revert from the municipal roll to the provincial roll. That is something we will discuss with them, but at the present time if the individual is deemed em ployable, then it is our position that they remain on the municipal roll.

There is no question that, while in the past there had been a turnover rate probably every six months or so in which individuals who were em ployable would find work and then perhaps it would be full-time work or perhaps they would go on to UIC but perhaps not come back to that system for some time, if ever again, in today's world it appears that the clients on the municipal level are staying for longer periods of time.

It is an issue that we have had some very preliminary discussions with UMM and MAUM when they come in and the City of Winnipeg to usually review their resolutions, and we enter into those discussions. It has also been discussed at the officials level, and I guess considering that we have some 27,000 or 28,000 cases, the municipal tier is up to maybe 18 ,000, we have not had a lot of disputed cases.

There are some, and often some of these come from small commu nities where there is tremendous commu nity pressure that comes onto the municipal government because, as you may be aware, in a small community there are not many secrets. Unfortunately, the business of the council is known by everyone, and possibly the business of everybody else is known by everyone too, and there

2278 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 93 does tend to be some commun ity pressure to do something about tha t individual. I mean, we hear stories from days past where bus tickets are issued on a one-way basis to bring somebody from Ontario to Manitoba or bring someone from a certain area into another jurisdiction. I think less and less of that is happening as programs generally are being standardized. Mrs. Carstalrs: When someone is terminated from provincial assistance, they do have a right of appeal, but presumably in the case that Mr. Schwartz is addressing they go then on municipal welfare.

Has the gove rnmen t considered the possibility of keeping them on provincial assistance until such time as their appeal has been determined? * (1 510 ) Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr. Acting Depu ty Chairperson, generally we do see that people do not sort of fall through the cracks on that short-term basis, and municipalities generally do the same thing. The appeal process is fairly short. It has to take place within 15 days, and generally those determinations are made pretty quickly.

I think it was the other day the critic for the opposition had indicated that perhaps we should have a longer period, and maybe one of the downsides of that is that you do not get the determination as quickly as possible. It is, as he indicates, kind of a gray area. We know that some municipalities will take those responsibilities, and there are times when the province does that depending on the specific case. Mrs. Carstalrs: I happen to think the 15 days is a legitimate period of time and that it should be done as quickly as possible. I also wonder about the cost of the paper chase.

If somebody is terminated from provincial assistance and has the right to make an appeal, then goes on municipal assistance, then wins the appeal, then goes back onto provincial assistance, is that not an awful lot of duplication of administrative expenses that could be elimi nated by just saying you have 15 days to appeal and during that 15 days you will remain on provincial assistance and the final de termi nation is the final determination? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I am told we do that in a number of cases.

You are raising the question of sort of bureaucracy, and it is an area that we need to do more work in, in terms of the amount of paper that does flow. It perhaps leads into the question, too, of whether we should have two levels of government involved in social allowances. Only Nova Scotia, I believe, and Manitoba do that now. Ontario is just in the process of changing and are looking at the offsets that have to take place as the province takes over. We are sort of getting some vibr ations, I guess, in Manit oba from some municipalities that they would like to move in that direction in Manitoba.

I guess that full debate really has not taken place yet. Mrs. Carstalrs: I have certainly used figures, you have certainly used figures, with respect to the numb er of social assistance recipients who live in the city of Winnipeg, but is ther e an actual breakdown by caseload? For example, there are 27,000 on the Social Allowances Program ; 29,000 on the Health Services Program; 22,000 on the Municipal Assistance Program; and 10 ,000 for the Income Assistance for the Disabled Program. Is that broken down into Winnipeg and non-Winnipeg? Mr. GIIIeshammer: Yes, we have that information.

If you just give me a minute, I can provide it for you. I will maybe start with the provincial distribution. On what is called the mothers allowance, we have 11, 61 1 cases: 3,700 in rural Manitoba; 7,800-1 am rounding these numbers a bit-in Winnipeg. In the disabled category, we have 11 ,702: 4,800 are in the rural area; 6,800 in Winnipeg. Then we have the general assistance, which, of course, is all in rural Manitoba. This refers to that caseload in areas of the prov in ce wher e there is no mu nicip al government, and there we have 1 ,693 cases. Then we have some others for a total of 27,881 provincial cases.

The distribution there is 40.3 percent in the rural areas and 59.7 percent in Winnipeg. So that is a fairly close, I think, relationship to the population of the province, give or take a percentage point or two. On the municipal side, the caseload in Winnipeg, and this is an estimate for the 19 92-93 year that is just completed , is a little over 18 ,000. Now, the non-Winnipeg caseload is 1 ,800. I do not have the percentages worked out, but obviously, it is close to 10 to one, those cases that are found in the city of Winnipeg.

So we have a municipal caseload of just over 20,000, and that has been the growing caseload. Our provincial caseload grows maybe at 3 percent, in that area. The em ployables, not unlike other provinces, is growing rapidly.

April 29, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 2279 The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): Item 3.(b)( 1) Social Allowances $236,802,000- pass;

(2) Health Services $1 4,727,400-pa ss;

(3) Mu nicip al Assistance $1 11 ,055 ,600-pass;

(4) Income Assistance for the Disabled $9,41 0,000-pass. Item 3.(

c) Income Supplement Programs (1 ) Salaries $700,700. Mrs. Carstalrs: Can the minister tell me exactly how many are now covered by 55 Plus, and how that figure has been declining? Mr. Gllleshammer: The 55 Plus, of course, has a senior component and a junior component, and the total of those projected for 19 93-94 is 22,295. That is an increase from last year's estimate of 21 ,000, the actual in '91 -92 of 21 ,000; the actual in '90-91 of 22,000.

So there has been a decline from a high in 1 987-88 of 26,000 down to around 21 ,000, and now, we are sort of projecting maybe about an increase of 500 there for next year. Mrs. Carstalrs: Is the reason for that projection based on the fact that there seems to be an awful lot of people in that 55-65 age group who have become unem ployed during the recession? Mr. Gllleshammer: The decline certainly has taken place mostly in the senior component-that will be the 65 and over- from a high of about 20,000 in '87 -88 to around 14 ,000 the last three years and into next year.

The junior component throughout '87 right into about '92 has remained fairly stable at around 6,500. The projection for the completion of this past budget year is that it would be up about 300, and we are projecting it would go up another 300. So that would be one of the possible factors. Mrs. Carstalrs: Does the mi ni ster have a breakdown as to how many of these are women? Mr. Gllleshammer: It is not information that we have. We, I am told, can, on the junior component, compile some information on that. * (1 520) Mrs.

Carstalrs : I was jus t interested in the demography of it quite frankly, so I do not want staff to be busily counting up numbers. I just thought if that information was available I would get it, but I certainly do not want to assign a whole new task for somebody over there. In terms of the ability to now collect CPP at age 60, has that been reflected at all in the num bers that are collecting 55 Plus? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Our feeling, and what staff have told me over the last three years, is the benefits from CPP, the benefits from other pensions that have given that particular age group, more income is the reason that those num bers have been coming down. I guess it was not that many years ago where poverty amongst the elderly in society was a really focused issue. It seems in many ways, because of the pension plans plus CPP that have been coming on stream, that those num bers reflect that. Mrs.

Carstalrs: It is interesting, because the most recent poverty profile which I received, which was an update for 19 91 , does not reflect that. I would have been of the same belief obviously as your staff that we should have been seeing that coming down. I was quite shocked when I saw this, that that was not the case, that it seems to be going the other way, which leads me to the question of, when was the last time the 55 Plus was actually increased? Mr. GIIIeshammer: The last increase there was in the year 19 90-91 . Mrs.

Carstalrs: Does the minister or staff have available the cost-of- living increase since that time? Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, the cost of living that we used this last year in determining the allowances was 1. 2 percent; the previous year, I believe, it was just over 3 percent. Mrs. Carstalrs: I am sorry, Mr. Minister, I was trying to do something else. Mr. Gllleshammer: The figure we used this last budget year was 1. 2 percent, and the previous year was just over 3 percent. Mrs.

Carstalrs: So in other words, since 19 90, the people who are receiving 55 Plus have seen a decrease in their benefit package from 55 Plus of 4.2 percent. Is that correct? Mr. Gllleshammer: The rates--1 believe, what the member is saying-yes, the rates have not changed since '90-91 . Mrs. Carstalrs: Can the minister indicate why it was determined that this supplement would not be increased, even though similar increases have been given for social allowances? Mr. GIIIeshammer: It is the view of the department that the social allowances is the program of last resort and the only income for those individuals,

2280 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA April29, 19 93 while the 55 Plus is regarded as an incom e supplement. The Acting Deputy Chai rperson (Mr. Reimer): Item 3.(

c) Income Supplem ent Programs (1 ) Salaries $700,700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $27 7,200 -pa ss;

(3) Financial Assistance $1 4,1 02,700-pass. Item 3. (

d) Regional Operations (1 ) Salaries $20,073,1 00- Mr. Martindale: If it is appropriate, I would like to ask some qu es tions about the Socie ty for Manitobans with Disabilities Inc.? Mr. Gllleshammer: The more appropriate place for that would be under the next group of lines, Rehabilitation, Commu nity Living. Mr. Martindale: Okay. Well, let us talk about child care then. Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, that is part of Resolution 9.4, under Communi ty Living and Day Care. So if we pass Regional Operations, we can go to that right away. The Acting Deputy Chair person (Mr. Reimer) : Item 3. (

d) Regional Operations (1 ) Salaries $20,073 ,1 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $5,741 ,600-pass. Resolution 9.3 : RE SOLV ED that ther e be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $414 ,658,000 for Family Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94-pa ss. Item 4. Rehabilitation, Commu nity Living and Day Care. Provides co-ordination, direction and support for a range of services to mentally disabled adults, day care facilities and families eligible for financial assistance using day care services.

Communi ty Living and Vocational Rehabilitation Progr ams: Pr ovide services for the care , accom modation and assistance of adu lts with a mental disability; provide vocational rehabilitation programs for adult s who are physica lly, psychiatrically and mentally disabled; and provide su pport services for children with mental and physical disabilities and their families. Man itoba Deve lopmen tal Centre: Provides residential care for the mentally disabled. Child Day Care: Licenses and provides program support to day care facilities and eligible families. 4.(

a) Admin istration (1 ) Salaries $61 4,300. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would like to start with some recomme ndations from the Provincial Aud itor for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 19 92, regar di ng the Society for Man itobans with Disabilities. There are a number of recommen dations and status of action, and for most of them the recomme ndation is implem ented. I wonder if the minister could update me on the recommendations that were in the process of being implem ented when this report was published as found on pages 15 0 and 15 1 . Mr.

GIIIeshammer: As I have indicated before, we do take advice from a numb er of organizations and, certainly, the Provincial Auditor brings forward information that we work with our external agencies to incorporate. Perhaps, if the memb er wanted to refer to specific recommen dations, we could do it on that basis. I might be able to give you some information here of how we are making out. * (1 530) There were some obse rvati ons and recommendations that I can comment on.

One was that the department should co-ordinate funding, and funding from the Department of Family Services has been centr alized with in the Rehabilitation, Communi ty Living and Day Care division. This was facilitated by the transfer of the Children's Special Services branch to the division from the Child and Family Services division.

Secondly, the dep artment should undertake a critical analysis of SM D's financial situation, and a review team with representation from Agency Relations, Program Budgeting and Reporting, Ch ildren's Special Services and divisional administration was struck to develop a format to enhance the reporting mechanisms utilized by SMD in order to undertake a critical analysis of SMD's financial situation to ensure that funding matched need. The working format was presented to SMD officials, and they are working on completing the required information.

Thirdly, the department should review its funding approval process to ensure funding decisions are co mmuni cated on a timel y basi s. Funding decisions are commu nicated as soon as possible within the constraints of the annual Estimates. Fourthly, the department should strive to improve com mu nic ations with SMD. Impr oved com mu nications with all agencies is a priority within the department. The process of entering into service

April29, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2281 and funding agreements with external agencies will foster com mun ica tion . The assistant dep uty minister of Rehabilitation, Comm unity Living and Day Care meets regularly with the executive director of SMD. Fifthly, the department should imp lemen t a system to provide for the ongoing review and assessment of the management practices of funded agencies. I would say that schedules to the service and funding agreement define management and financial information reporting requirements.

This, in turn, provides for enhanced monitoring of both fi nancial and manage ment prac tices. The department has iss ued to all agencies a board development guide-1 think I gave memb ers copies of that-c oncerning the roles, responsibilities and functions of a board which will serve to enhance agency management accountability. The sixth item: The department should develop analytical review procedures and apply on a timely basis. The department has adopted analytical review procedures and is undertaking these reviews on a timely basis.

The seventh on e: The dep artme nt should implement a service delivery agreement with SMD. I would say negotiations are continuing with SMD on a service and funding agreement. So that covers those seven observations and recomme ndations made by the Provincial Auditor. Mr. Martindale: Did any of these recom men dations have an im pact on the budgeting decisions this year that had such a great effect on the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities? Mr. Gllleshammer: The items there that refer to process we are still proceeding with.

We have continued to work wit h them on some of those items, and we think that the Auditor has really pinpointed some crucial areas. Negotiations on the service and funding agr eeme nt, which are cer tainly impacted by budget decisions, are ongoing. Mr. Martindale: It is my understanding that with a 10 percent budget reduction they lost $800,000. Is that correct? Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, perhaps this wou ld be easier if we could have from the department the payments to external agencies for all income security and regional operations. Mr.

Gllleshammer: You are referring to our grants listing? Mrs. Carstalrs: Yes. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. We do not have it here today, but we can make copies available for you next day. Mr. Martindale: Was the minister able to confirm that this was $800,000 from their budget? Mr. Gllleshammer: We are just calcu lating it because we fund them in a number of different ways, a number of different areas. The 1 0 percent is correct. You can either proceed with another question, or if you want to wait a few a minutes, we will have a numb er for you. Mr.

Martindale: Obviously, this organization is very concerned; as a result of this budget cut, they laid off 14 staff . I wo uld lik e to refe r to correspondence that they wrote to the minister on March 29, which I have a copy of. If the minister would like to have it in front of him, I could-we ll, I was going to use it to ask my questions. I will just ask the questions. I am sure the minister is quite capable of answering these questions without the letter in front of him.

On the second page, they say that cuts in grants to such organizations as SMD, CNIB and CPA, which receive federal cost sharing under CAP and VRDP, ignore the fact that the province has cut 50 cents of reve nue for every dollar of expenditure reduction.

I am wondering if the minister and his department considered the effects of reducing funding to an organization wher e that funding is cost shared with the federal government so that the effect, I think they are saying, is that federal revenue which comes to Manitoba that hires staff and provides programs and services is being lost to this organization and to the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Gllleshammer: I will start by answering your further question about what the 10 percent meant. It is $420,000.

In all of our deliberations on budget, we have to take into consideration, of course, the money that flows out of provincial coffers in its entirety and also consider that there is cost sharing under CAP and VRDP. However, that is only part of the equation in making budget determinations. If we were to say that we would never reduce money flowing to agencies because it is matched dollar for dollar with the federal government, then we would always be escalating those figures because we are spending 50-cent dollars. By the same token, we would, if you use the same logic, then be reluctant

2282 LEGIS lATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 93 to approve any spending where it is 1 00-percent dollars. In answer to the question, we are certainly aware of programs that are cost sharable. You know it is, again, as your Leader has frequently said, very, very difficult decisions. I know the member is aware , through the discussions that we have had, of the tough decisions that other provinces have to make as well, even to the point where it is drawing comment from colleagues within certain parties who are not recognizing, as they are in opposition, how difficult it is to make those decisions.

I know it must be very difficult. The Prime Minister indicated in the Hous e yesterday how difficult it is for party structures to remain in tact when federal memb ers are being critical of provincial leaders, and, again, because they are in oppo sition, ma ybe not recognizing what it is to have to make those decisions and how that is quite a different role than being in a critic's role. * {15 40) Having said that, we cer tainly take into consideration the revenue sources that we are able to access and know that boards of these external agencies have other sources of income.

They have, in some cases, surpluses in properties and so forth. So their budgeting is not simple either, because we know that they do not just depend on provincial funds, but wher e we fund them, probably 50 percent, if not more, of their funding, that is enough to make an impact and require them to make some very serious decisions. Mr.

Martindale: I will ignore the lecture that the minister just gave me and go on to the next point that the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities make, and that is, they say the juxtaposition of these grant reductions against significant growth in some dep artme ntal expendi tu res raises additional questions about the department's priorities and the value of services provided by the voluntary sector.

Now, they are referring to departmental expenditure increases between '89-90 and '91 -92 which are not very relevant to this budget for '93-9 4 when we see departmental expenditures declining except for the increase in social assistance. However, the point that they go on to make is that they believe that client services provided directly by commu nity-based agencies operating with lower salary levels and funding from a variety of other sources is a better way to spend money.

They say a 5 pe rcent increase in personnel services paralleled by a 1 .5 percent decrease in grants transfer payments does not support the principle of leadership by example and only serves to create an impression that government looks after its own first. But I think that refers back to previous years budget figures. I think the point that they are making is that because their salaries are lower and because they are a nongo ver nmen t organizati on, they can provide services more cheaply than similar services delivered directly by government.

I wonder what the min ister's response is to that argument that they are putting forward. Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, that is something I am very interested in, and I am pleased that the member recognizes that there are agencies out there that perhaps government could purchase service from or contract out to as opposed to government having to do those things. I think the member is on to something here that perhaps it is something we should do more of in looking at having agencies outside government deliver services, and we do sometimes get a chance to do those comparisons.

As the member knows, in a number of areas within Family Services, we have outside agencies that are the front line delivery method, and in some areas of the province, the department staff do it. I do not know whether we have ever done a real thorough comparison of the cost of service, but, you know, the membe r makes a good point, and I think it is something that we should pursue through our Policy and Planning branch to see if we can free up some funding in some areas, because we have lots of places to spend it, as the memb er well knows.

So if we can provide services cheaper in some way by contracting out, then maybe we should do more of that. Mr. Marti ndale: Their nex t comment is that attention should be paid to reducing duplication between services provided directly by government and those provided by the voluntary sector with the intent of shifting more services from government to the voluntary sector. Is this something that the minister is also in favour of, and is it something that his department is exam ining? Mr. Gllleshammer: I think we have to be careful if we are shifting services to the voluntary sector.

We talked about Winnipeg Harvest the other day being the voluntary sector in terms of providing food. I do

April29, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2283 not subscribe to the fact that government can just walk away from its responsibilities to provide that basic safety net and depend on the volunteer communi ty. Mr. Martindale: I guess I would make a distinction between organizations that operate almost entirely by volunteers, such as Winnipeg Harvest, and organizations like the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities who are operating with paid staff. So I am not sure what they mean by voluntary sector. Perhaps they mean nongovernment sector.

They go on to say that rehabilitation agencies play an important role in preventing institutionalization. I think what they are saying is that, if money flows to their organization for prevention and rehabilitation, they can save money because it may keep people out of institutions and out of hospitals and save money in the health care system. I think that is quite a good argument. They seem to feel that by your government's reduction in its grant and reduction in rehabilitation services that is inconsistent with decrea sing future costs to government. Mr.

Gllleshammer: Well, I gu ess that was a comment rather than a question, but I will engage in that. For sure, the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities provides some extremely valuable services to individuals across this province. I am sure all of us are aware of individual cases where intervention by SMD has provided a quality of life that was very, very important. I can certainly think of specific cases in my own com mun ity wher e they have been just extremely supportive of a number of families. We are going to pursue, in our service and funding agreement, a continuing relationship with SMD.

I think, through the Aud itor's Report, we have had a reminder that agencies and organizations like that, from time to time, have to examine the services that they provide and how they do business and find those areas of duplication that exist, whether it is dupl ication with government or duplic ation with other agencies and organizations. We will be pleased to continue our relationship with them to assist them in becom ing the mo st effective organization that they can be. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Objectives and Expected Resu lts of the subappropriation, it stated that one of the expected results is the "development of program plans and policies which are responsive to changing client needs." One would presume from that that one would have to have some knowledge of the client's needs. In the area of child care, I am going to ask this minister the same question that I have asked him twice before.

Is this perhaps the branch that would have done some analysis of the client needs and told the minister that there was in fact a capacity for those receiving subsidies to go from a dollar a day to $2.40 a day? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, within this branch is housed our daycare staff. We rely on the input of the staff within that branch to bring forward the statistics, the information and the recomme ndations of how we can accommo date the needs of the daycare commun ity and do that within the budget allocations that we have. The mem ber's question is one that has been raised before.

I had the opportunity two nights ago to meet with a group of daycare parents in a certain area of the city where we talked at length about subsidies and the various kinds of daycares and the number of spaces available. There is some concern in the community that we are reducing the number of subsidized spaces that government was able to accom modate in the last budget year. I have assured those parents with issues and concerns, and certainly have assured the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) today that the daycare staff will be working with individuals as changes take place within the system. * (1 550) I suppose there are different ways of managing these changes. For instance, our subsidy is based on an income test, and the change that we made is not income tested, other than if you are on subsidy that you are being asked to contribute more. The feeling was within the department that the people who are accessing daycare have the ability to make that additional contribution. Mrs.

Carstalrs: The minister indicated, which I already knew, of course, that the subsidy was income tested and the amount of subsidy that is provided is based on the amount of income that the individual has. Can the minister tell us then if the department had new information which would indicate that people

2284 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 93 had additional income that would enable them to pick up an extra $1 .40 a day per child and, in some cases, an additional $2.40 per day per child since they were not paying the original $1 a day per child? (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Gllleshammer: I am not aware of any of the centres that were not charging the original $1 that have now decided to charge that $1 plus the $1 .40, but perhaps there are, and we will ask for that information from the department.

The grid which has been worked out to determine subsidies certainly has clientele within that subsidy framework at a variety of levels of income. The department and the information brought forward by this branch was such, when we had our discussions in making this decision, that the people who were accessing the full subsidy and those that were accessing the partial subsidy would be able to accommodate another $1 .40 a day. There were obviously alternatives that we have discussed. We felt that this was a small amount that the client would have to contribute.

Government, for the majority of the subsidized clients, is providing, if not the total amount in the past, nearly all of that amount. It was felt that parents with children in child care could make that small contribution. Mrs. Carstalrs: I think we have a slight semantics problem here. The daycares that I have spoken to indeed charged $1 a day. The point was, they did not get it. They could not get the $1 a day from the client, so they were in fact writing it off, if you will, as a bad debt at the end of their fiscal year.

So those are the ones that I am saying, if they found that these people could not pay the $1 a day, now they are being asked to pay $2.40 a day, in essence $1 .40 per day increase per child, what kind of analysis-the minister said that this branch did in fact provide statistics-what kind of st atistics did this branch provide to the minister about the number of child care spaces for which there was not $1 a day paid that would give him a sense that there was a capacity for them now to pay $2.40 a day? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Well, that information that the member is looking for is lodged within the various daycare centres. Some of the centre boards have made decisions passed onto me through the MCCA not to charge the $1 a day. Some centres made a decision to include that as part of the charge, and some centres did both. They in their own estimation did some incomes testing, and some of their clients were paying the $1 a day and some were not being charged that $1 a day.

It was the feeling and the conclusion arrived at within our department in discussing this with the staff from the daycare office, looking at information that we had, that this was an amount that parents could contribute to the child care that they were accessing. Mrs. Carstalrs: Can the minister tell the committee the amount of income that a family would earn that would entitle them to a full subsidy? * (1 600) Mr.

Gllleshammer: Perhaps before I start I will just introduce the staff that have joined me: Tannis Mindel!, is the Assistant Deputy Minister; Kim Sharman with her staff, and Gisela Rempel from the Daycare office. The net family income to qualify for subsidies if, and it depends on the composition of the family-a single parent with one child at an income of $13, 787 would get a full subsidy and would get a partial subsidy up to $24,369. A single parent with two children would get a full subsidy at $1 6,341 and a partial subsidy up to $37,505.

A single parent with three children would get a full subsidy at $1 8,895 and a partial subsidy up to $50,641 . Two parents, one child, full subsidy at $1 6,341 , a partial subsidy up to $26,923. Two parents, two children, full subsidy up to $1 8,895 and a partial subsidy up to $40,059. One final example, two parents, three children, a full subsidy at $21 ,449, and a partial subsidy up to $53,195. In all cases that is net family income, total after-tax family income less Ul, CPP premiums and other mandatory deductions. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the figure that the minister gave me for a single parent with two children was an income of $1 6,341 . As a result of this change, according to my calculations and I stand to be corrected, that would be $1 .40 a day for two children at 52 weeks a year would be $676-$676 out of a total income of $1 6,341 in additional costs. Can the minister explain to me how this person could do this? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I point out to the member, and I do not have my calculator in front of me, but government's contribution to the daycare of those two children would be in excess of $30 a day for 52 weeks of the year, so we as government through this particular branch are providing a considerable amount of subsidy for the care of those children, and -

April29, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2285 the feeling, in looking at the changes that we had to make in su bsidies, I am told that would be a contribution on the part of government of $8,320. Because of the demands on the system, and I point out that we have licensed some 3,000 more spaces in the last few years, we have doubled the amount of funding that we have put into daycare over the last five or six budgets, that there are various ways of doing this to try and remain within a budget that I think the print this year is some $47 million.

We could have rechanged the subsidy to take a considerable number of parents off subsidy to not have this additional charge, but we felt to maintain the system of between 19 ,000 and 20,000 licensed spaces and to still have some 9,600 children being subsidized, that we would make the changes that led us to ask for a contribution of $1 .40 a day. Mrs. Carstalrs: Nobody is denying that these individuals are already getting large sums of money from the government. I simply asked how a single parent on $1 6,341 a year, raising two children, can afford to pay an additional $676 a year?

I just want to know how the minister thinks they can do that? Mr. GIIIeshammer: Well, I point outto the member that $1 6,000 that she references is net income, that there is other income that flows to thatfamily through various tax cred its and oth er gove rnmen t programming. Again, every family has decisions to make and we realize that they are difficult decisions. I think what the member is saying is yes, you could live within the budget, but take the money from somewhere else, and certainly those were options we looked at. Mr.

Martindale: I wonder if we could go back to another part of the department if it is okay with the mi nister. I have a newsletter from the Ability Network from November 19 92, and they talk about graduates from high school with developme ntal disabilities. They refer to the fact that some 70 gradua tes throughout Manitoba completed high school in 19 92. Apparently there are no statistics on what happens to these stude nts after high school because there is no tracking mechanism in place.

I would like to ask the minister if he thinks this would be something worthwh ile doing, finding out if these students went on to post- secondary education or into employment. Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, yes, I would agree with the member that a tracking system to follow these graduates would be very important. We do some transitional planning with individuals as they come out of the public school system at age 21 , but this is an area of our department which we have many of the toughest decisions to make in terms of providing programming.

This is the area where in fact we have waiti ng lists of people to get into appropriate housing and day programming and on-the-job training and jobs wher e there are ful l-tim e coaches and staff available, and we do have some statistics to show what happens to these individuals in the years imme diately following their leaving the training institution that they were involved with and do this transitional planning, but as far as long-term statistics, it is an area where we could improve. Mr.

Martindale: I have had the opportunity to talk with quite a few externally funded agencies, and some I have been able to tour. One that I saw earlier this year was Brandon Commun ity Options. I was in one of their group homes, in one of their workshops, and asked them how the budget was going to affect their operation. They explained how they planned to alter their budget due to a two percent cut to fundings for per diems, and I believe they lost three percent on other rates.

I guess one of their biggest problems is that their staff are unionized, and they have already in place a collective agreement that requires a two percent wage increase in October. So they are faced with some very difficult budget decisions. I think they will find a way to survive this year. They have to. They have no other choice unless they shut down their group homes, and they do not intend to do that, but they are concerned about next year as well as this year. I belie ve the Mi nister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has already announced a 1 percent budget reduction in all departments for next year.

Is there any abi lity for this mi nister or his dep art men t to ind icate to exter nally fu nded agencies and organizations what may be coming down the road for next year so that they can do some budgeting in advance that hopefully they will not have to redo after the provincial budget is tabled? It seems to me that this is a particular problem when budgets are going down rather than up, but that they would appreciate being able to do some long-term budgeting rather than have to go through a crisis, particularly the kind of crisis they went through this

2286 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA April29, 19 93 year when they had finished their budget process and then found out they had much less money to operate but had increased expenses like a collective agreement that they had agreed to with a two percent salary increase. So I wonder if the min ister can give some indication of what changes he might be able to make for organizations for their budgeting process next year. Mr. Gllle shammer: Mr. Deput y Chairperson, certainly these community organizations have very, very difficult decisions to make as their boards of directors grapple with budgets.

The me mb er referenced, I think he said, a union that they belong to, and I am very interested in what Premier Rae is talking about in terms of social contracts and to see if perhaps some of the unions would take a little less to maintain staffing and programming and be able to leave intact basically the programming that is there. The message is certainly out there that this government, as well as all governments, is going to have a difficult time accessing more funds in the coming year.

I am not sure what comment the member is referring to that the Rnance minister has made, but I know last year we sent out cautionary letters in the month of November, I believe it was, to indicate to groups that access funding from our department and many departments, that they should not expect that their funding would remain as it was last year.

I think the environment is out there now where organizations realize that accessing additional funding in the 1 990s from government is going to be very difficult. * (1610 ) We will work with the various boards of these organizations to assist them in helping make any transition that they have to make and make any adjustments that they have to make to recognize the realities that are in place. The programming for individuals in the various training programs that are offered, not only in Brandon but also in Winnipeg and other parts of the province, basically are going on without a lot of changes from last year.

The easiest place to make those adjustments is on the wage side, and I think that the memb er will find that these workers will be co-operative with their boards as they too recognize the situation that faces them . Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask some questions about child care now. First of all, referring to the commen ts that the mini ster made earlier saying that no centre is charging the dollar a day plus the $1 .40 a day, I would like to-{interjection] Okay.

The minister says he did not say that so we will wait and see what is recorded in Hansard and revisit that on Monday if necessary. I believe that the problem with centres who are not charging the new $1 .40 a day is that it is putting downward pressure on their salaries, that either because they feel their parents cannot afford it, which is true in many, many cases, or because the parents are unable to find the money or in fact pay that money when it is due to their child care centre, that child care centres find other ways of making up for that shortfall in funds.

I do not know where they are going to take that money from. I do not suppose child care centres know yet whether it is going to come out of equipment or supplies or food, but certainly it is going to put pressure on salaries. Either they are going to ask their staff to make sacrifices in terms of wages or they are not going to give them increases. I think that is probably one of the worst effects of the increase in fees to parents. We know already that ch ild care workers are underpaid compared to people doing similar jobs, such as nursery school teachers.

We know that the child care commun ity would like to see wages increased even if it is over a matter of time, but the result of this government's policies are that those salary increases which are deserved and which have been something they have been campaigning for for several years are not going to happen now as quickly as they could have or should have. I would like to ask the minister, first of all, if he took this into conside ration when they decided to im plement a new and additional fee to parents. Mr.

Gllleshammer: What I had said earlier, and I would clarify for the membe r that in the previous budgeting and accessing of funds for child care, centres had the ability to charge an extra dollar a day. Many of them did; some of them did not. Some of them charged some of their clients that dollar, and others did not because of the fact they felt that it was not possible to do so. What I said to the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs.

Carstairs) is that I was not aware of any centre that was not collecting the dollar before that is now collecting $2.40, but that I would check with my staff to see if there were cases where those centres were

April 29, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2287 not collecting before but were now collecting the full amount. To get to the memb er's question, I think he is focused very clearly on the issue in daycare as one of salaries, that when I have met with the various daycare organizations and individual daycares, salaries have certainly been a topic that we have wanted to discuss and that they have wanted to discuss. The salaries are dependent on

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-52
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 52.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7b373168d5e200b98faacd84c3cce11157dd1184

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