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June 26, 1990

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

LANDLORDS' RESTRICTIONS ON PETS

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

ESSAY CONTEST

HANDGUN REPLICAS

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

ROUGE VALLEY

MINIMUM WAGE

NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

ELLIOT LAKE URANIUM FESTIVAL

ESTIMATES

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

RETAIL STORE HOURS

MINIMUM WAGE

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS

VOLUNTEER OF THE YEAR / BÉNÉVOLE DE L'ANNÉE

RESPONSES

RETAIL STORE HOURS

MINIMUM WAGE

VOLUNTEER OF THE YEAR

RETAIL STORE HOURS

VOLUNTEER OF THE YEAR

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS

ORAL QUESTIONS

RETAIL STORE HOURS

PENSION REFORM

RETAIL STORE HOURS

SOCIAL WORKERS

TIMBER MANAGEMENT

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

DISTRICT HEALTH COUNCILS

NORTHERN HEALTH SERVICES

SUPPORT AND CUSTODY ORDERS ENFORCEMENT

ALCOHOL AND DRUG TREATMENT

EMPLOYMENT IN NORTHERN ONTARIO

LIVING WILLS

MOTION

CONSIDERATION OF CERTAIN PRIVATE BILLS

PETITIONS

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

RELIGIOUS EDUCATION

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

MUNICIPAL STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

ENVIRONMENTAL HARM ACT

444610 ONTARIO INC ACT, 1990

ENDANGERED, THREATENED AND VULNERABLE SPECIES ACT, 1990

CITY OF TORONTO ACT, 1990

BOROUGH OF EAST YORK ACT, 1990

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ONTARIO LOTTERY CORPORATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

COUNTY OF SIMCOE ACT, 1990

HOUSE SITTING

NORTHERN ONTARIO / NORD DE L'ONTARIO

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

LANDLORDS' RESTRICTIONS ON PETS

Ms Bryden: With the legislative session running down this week, I urge the Attorney General to make it a top legislative priority to pass his belated amendments to the Landlord and Tenant Act relating to eviction of responsible pet owners.

The New Democratic Party House leader asked all three House leaders to agree to this last week. I am told that some of the persons answering the Attorney General's phones are blaming the New Democratic Party for opposing quick passage, which we categorically deny. We urge the Progressive Conservative Party to join us in urging quick passage this week.

I would also suggest that the Attorney General amend his Bill 225 to remove the serious flaw in the amendments which the onus on pet owners to prove that their pets are not a nuisance or a cause of problems to other tenants. The onus should be put on the landlords.

The huge number of phone calls from pet owners coming into all of our offices as a result of a humane society mailing on the issue indicates that thousands fear they will be forced to get rid of their pets or move if the amendments are not passed this week.

It is time the Attorney General introduced a standard lease which would outlaw no-pets clauses and prevent landlords from using such to intimidate and harass tenants whom they seek to evict for economic reasons. Other provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Act can deal with problems caused by irresponsible pet owners.

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

Mr Jackson: Today marks a very special anniversary in our province, the 14th anniversary of the CN Tower. Coincidentally, today is also the fifth anniversary of the Ontario Liberal government. So today, we pause to remember two great shafts, one a monument to engineering excellence, the other to untrammelled expediency.

We pause to remember the Premier in his first appearance as Captain Canada, when he took on the free trade deal. And when the fight broke out, he took a dive.

We pause to remember Ontario's Attorney General, a man as energetic as he is inept, with his relentless talent for being wrong before the Supreme Court of Ontario, wrong about Sunday shopping and wrong about the Patti Starr inquiry.

We pause to reflect on the accomplishments of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, whose major achievement has been to accumulate more Aeroplan points in a shorter time than any other minister in the cabinet.

We take a moment to recall the long list of scandals, forced resignations and broken promises.

But for me, nothing sums up better the Liberal legacy than this morning's report of the Treasurer's prediction that in the future it could cost home owners up to $40 to water their lawns. No surprise there, because as we have seen time and again during the past five years, under a Liberal government only the taxpayers get soaked.

It was Pierre Trudeau who taught us that Liberal governments fall when they run out of promises and run out of money. The David Peterson Liberal government will ultimately fall because of its broken promises and for breaking the backs of Ontario taxpayers.

ESSAY CONTEST

Mr Owen: The area of Simcoe county that my riding covers has a long and interesting history. In order to promote an awareness of this history among young people in my riding, I sponsor an annual history essay contest for students in grades 7 and 8. The theme for the essay contest was to be a person, place or occurrence of local historical significance. Invitations were sent to all the public and separate schools in the riding encouraging their participation. More than 70 essays were received from schools throughout the riding for this, the third annual contest. The essays were marked by an independent panel of judges.

This year's winner is Lori Gibson, who has just graduated from the eighth grade of Innisfil Central Public School. Lori's essay was about Bethesda Methodist United Church, a most interesting and enlightening look at a part of our local past in Innisfil township.

Lori is to be congratulated on a job well done. Lori is the top athlete, top academic student, top public speaker and top all-round student from her school. Lori is here today with her teacher-mother, Shirley Gibson, and her class teacher, Judy Kennedy. I would like to take this opportunity to welcome them to the Legislature. I would present to the House today, Lori Gibson.

HANDGUN REPLICAS

Mr Farnan: Ontario's Solicitor General wants the federal government to tighten gun control laws in the wake of the shooting of a Metropolitan Toronto Police officer. However, the Solicitor General refuses to bring forward my private member's bill, Bill 145, which would ban the sale of replica guns in the province. Bill 145 has received first and second reading, and the standing committee on administration of justice, after public hearings, overwhelmingly endorsed the bill.

We know that replica guns constitute a growing menace in our society, and police commissions and police officers across the province have indicated their support for Bill 145. We know that this government has much to answer for in the eyes of police officers. For over a year the government refused to review the Police Act and only initiated the review in a climate of crisis. Provincial underfunding also caused police enforcement to be stretched to the limit.

With Bill 145, the Ontario government has the opportunity to demonstrate that it is sensitive to the opinions and concerns of police officers. The steadfast refusal of the Solicitor General to have Bill 145 brought forward for third reading is clearly an expression of the indifference of this government to the work of our police officers. Members should look at these guns. How do they think an officer will react if faced by an individual yielding such a gun? Surely it makes sense to ban such guns in the province of Ontario.

[Later]

Mr Farnan: On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: I believe my privileges have been usurped. The replica guns that I brought into the House have been taken by the Sergeant at Arms. People have brought other props into this House, whether it was a garbage bag or a seagull. If these guns are harmless, surely they equate in the same manner to other props that have been used in the House. You, Mr Speaker, have not confiscated or had calls to be confiscated other props that have been used in the House, yet these replica guns were confiscated by the Sergeant at Arms, I believe, with your permission. I believe that I am not getting the same treatment from the Chair as other members of this House.

The Speaker: I listened very carefully to the member's point. I certainly will get back to him in due course. I am glad he informed me of what has taken place. I thank him for the point of information.

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

Mrs Marland: I was intrigued to read in today's Toronto Star that the Minister of the Environment will attend a dinner being held tonight by environmentalists. We are all happy to hear that the minister has recovered sufficiently from his eye surgery to attend the gala dinner. I trust this means he is well enough to be present in the House tomorrow. With Bill 220 on the list of weekly business and many outstanding issues, we would welcome him back.

Let me remind members of a few of this government's broken or unfulfilled promises on the environment. In 1987 the Environment minister promised to replace the badly outdated air pollution regulation 308. Three years later, nothing has been done. In 1986 the minister brought in the municipal-industrial strategy for abatement, promising abatement of water pollution. Four years later we only have monitoring regulations. There has been no abatement, and this year Toronto-area beaches are having to close earlier than ever.

We have a province-wide garbage crisis. In 1988 the minister said 160 municipalities would run out of landfill space by 1990. But what has he done to solve the problem? His ministry has approved only five new landfill sites under the Environmental Assessment Act since 1985. Now he is giving emergency exemptions to municipalities needing to expand their landfill sites. Promises, promises. When will we see action on air pollution, water pollution and waste management?

ROUGE VALLEY

Mr Faubert: Here in Ontario, parks play a very important role in our lives. Parks preserve our natural heritage. Parks offer us a place to go to take it easy or to partake of a wide variety of activities, from swimming to hiking or simply relaxing.

Members of this House will recall that the government of Ontario announced this spring the protection of the Rouge River valley in Scarborough. The Rouge Valley is the most ambitious park project in Canada's history. Planning the management of its unique natural, historical and recreational features is an important and challenging task.

I am pleased to inform the House that the government of Ontario announced today that Jim French has been chosen to chair the committee. Mr French has a long history of community involvement. He has served as a trustee in the Scarborough Board of Education, including four years as chair, and was also the founding president of the Canadian Wildflower Society.

The committee, representing 14 government and non-government agencies and interest groups, will recommend a comprehensive plan for the first phase of the park within one year. That plan will cover the initial 17.5-square-kilometre area of the park, which is most of the Rouge Valley lands between Steeles Avenue and Lake Ontario.

The recommendations are to include what type of park should be established, which agency or combination of agencies should manage the area and what private lands should be acquired. The committee will report its recommendations to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Above all, the committee will ensure that there are numerous opportunities for groups and individuals with an interest in the area to get involved in the planning process to determine the future uses of this very special part of Scarborough and Ontario.

MINIMUM WAGE

Mr Mackenzie: When it comes to those in need, it is clear whose side the Liberals are on. The Liberals are more interested in helping their big business friends than making life better for poor people. The gap between the rich and the poor in Ontario grows every day. The Liberals have done nothing to close it. Liberals say they are listening to the poor and want to help them, but time and time again the Liberal government has sold out those in need.

In Ontario, 10,000 children a month under two years old are fed through Ontario food banks. The only child of a support parent working for minimum wage will be living on 54% of the Canadian poverty line, and the Liberal Treasurer has said that the inflation rate for 1990 will be 4.9%, with the goods and services tax expected to add an additional 3.2% increase in January 1991; that works out to 8.1%.

Yet in the face of this, yesterday -- probably it will be moved again -- or, officially, today -- we have a minimum wage increase in Ontario of 8%, or from $5 to $5.40. It is a disgrace. Even Transitions, the Thomson report in this province, said there was a need for a substantial increase in the minimum wage in Ontario, and figures anywhere from $6 up for minimum wage were mentioned.

To bring in a minimum wage that does not take effect until 1 October and will be eaten up within two months is a disgrace to this government.

NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

Mr Eves: Late this morning I received a memorandum from Carol Speare, the economic development officer in Parry Sound, who indicates that she has been told by the people in the NODC/ODC division of the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Technology that later this year, all of the NODC applications that are now being processed through the Sudbury office of the Northern Ontario Development Corp will be moved to a southern Ontario location in Bracebridge to a new Ontario Development Corp office.

The Premier rose in this House, as did the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, some two years ago to make a commitment to the people of Parry Sound that they would be in northern Ontario effective 1 April 1989. We have already seen this government renege on that commitment with respect to northern health travel grants, which the Minister of Health says are not northern grants. We have also seen the Ministry of Education renege by totally changing the system by which it provides educational funding to local rural school boards in northern Ontario to effectively wipe out the advantage that the district of Parry Sound and Nipissing received under that com mitment.

Now we see the ultimate blow, where they are going to take the Northern Ontario Development Corp office out of northern Ontario. Parry Sound will now be dealt with as if it was part of southern Ontario through a new office in Bracebridge. I do not know what the rationale could possibly be, but hopefully it is not too late for this government to reconsider its commitment to Parry Sound riding.

ELLIOT LAKE URANIUM FESTIVAL

Mr Brown: Every year, Elliot Lake has the distinct honour of hosting northern Ontario's largest community gala. Celebrating its 20th anniversary, the Elliot Lake Uranium Festival has long been the envy of other northern Ontario communities. The festival, although on a smaller scale, is Elliot Lake's answer to Quebec's Winter Carnival, the Calgary Stampede or Vancouver's Pacific National Exhibition. The annual celebration begins 21 June and runs through until 1 July, Canada Day.

Because Elliot Lake has been famed for its mining capabilities, many of the festival's events focus upon elements of this industry. Drilling and ore mucking competitions draw highly respected people from all areas of the profession. Also featured is a Miss Elliot Lake contest, and many of our festival queens have competed in Toronto for the crown of Miss CNE. Numerous sporting activities are offered, as well as the presentation of the town's junior and civic awards, given to citizens for various accomplishments.

Other activities such as pet shows, bike races, carnivals and midways help to entertain both the residents and the large number of visitors the festival attracts. Topping it all off is a colourful parade, followed by an outdoor barbecue, dancing and a gigantic fireworks display.

I would like to close by wishing the town of Elliot Lake every success this year.

ESTIMATES

Hon Mr Elston: Members will be pleased to know and relieved to hear that I have a message from His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, signed by his own hand.

The Speaker: The Lieutenant Governor transmits estimates of certain sums required for the services of the province for the year ending 31 March 1991 and recommends them to the Legislative Assembly. Signed by His Honour Lincoln Alexander.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Hon Mr Scott: On Friday last, a judge of the High Court of Justice issued a declaration that in his view the Retail Business Holidays Act violates freedom of religion as guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and that the act is thus unconstitutional. I have instructed counsel to appeal against this finding to the Court of Appeal for Ontario. It is the opinion of the law officers of the crown that the prospects for success on appeal are good. It is not presently certain when the appeal can be heard.

In the present circumstances, the issue for the law officers of the crown is whether charges should continue to be laid for breaches of the act in anticipation that the result will be reversed upon appeal or, alternatively, whether no charges should be laid so that the law becomes a dead letter only to spring to life again if the appeal succeeds.

Mr B. Rae: God forbid anything should spring to life.

Hon Mr Scott: The honourable member would not know anything about that.

It is an issue that did not frequently arise until the enactment of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms significantly expanded the grounds upon which unconstitutionality could be determined. It is none the less an important and complex issue, bearing in mind the capacity of our courts, supported by the charter, to make declarations of unconstitutionality with respect not only to provisions of the Criminal Code but to a wide range of licensing and regulatory enactments as well.

In most civil cases, and a request for a declaration of unconstitutionality is a civil case, the law provides for the possibility of a stay of the judgement under appeal pending the outcome of the appeal. In the event of a stay, the law would continue to be enforced in the interim. This recognizes the possibility that decisions may be reversed, possibly more than once, as the case proceeds and that such reversals may create intolerable confusion as to the state of the law. As a result, the stay preserves the status quo pending appeal and permits the law to be applied in a predictable way, although final determinations of guilt may await the ultimate court determination.

I have instructed counsel to seek such a stay in the present case. If granted, the effect of the stay will be to hold in abeyance the declaration of unconstitutionality and to preserve the Retail Business Holidays Act pending a final determination on appeal. As well, this would mean that the police would continue to investigate infractions of the act and to lay charges as appropriate.

If the declaration that the Retail Business Holidays Act infringes upon freedom of religion is upheld on ultimate appeal, then the Retail Business Holidays Act will be of no force and effect, and any charges that may have been laid in the interim will be unenforceable. On the other hand, if higher courts reverse the declaration that the act infringes on freedom of religion and thereby uphold its constitutionality, the effect will be that the Retail Business Holidays Act will be confirmed as having been fully valid, not only from the date of the Court of Appeal's decision but at all times including the period leading up to the appeal.

It is hoped that the application for a stay will be heard in the next few days.

I propose to leave legal argument about the constitutionality of the Retail Business Holidays Act to a different forum. I can say, however, that this government continues to believe that the act is a fair and balanced law that responds appropriately to the social, economic and cultural reality of Ontario in the 1990s. The act establishes a framework that ensures a pause day for Ontarians can exist. At the same time, it recognizes that the diversity of Ontario makes it wrong to impose on all communities, regardless of their circumstances, an inflexible straitjacket with regard to openings and closings.

The act recognizes that economic circumstances such as proximity to the United States border or social circumstances such as the cultural diversity of large urban centres may make appropriate choices other than a blanket prohibition on retail activity. Absolute uniformity may be neater, but it is neither fairer nor more respectful of rights and freedoms than is a sensitivity to the varying needs of particular communities.

This government did not and still does not believe that inflexible application throughout the province is necessary either to achieve the goal of a pause day for Ontarians or to guarantee respect for the rights and freedoms protected by the charter.

It is my hope that higher courts will validate this position and I call on Ontarians to respect the current law until the matter has been settled on appeal.

Mr Rae: Good work, good work.

Mr Cousens: You couldn't even get a job in your own ministry.

Interjections.

Hon Mr Scott: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would like to record for the television audience that the position we have taken today is supported by both opposition parties.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I listened carefully. I do not feel that is a point of order. It is a point of information.

MINIMUM WAGE

Hon Mr Phillips: I am pleased to announce again today an increase in the general minimum wage to $5.40 an hour from the prevent level of $5. The change will take effect in the workweek in which 1 October occurs.

The working poor are the main beneficiaries of the increase, as this government continues its resolve to raise the purchasing power of the minimum wage, while maintaining the competitive position of Ontario.

This is the fifth annual increase since this government undertook to review the minimum wage rates each year. During the period 1985-90, the general minimum wage will have increased by eight percentage points above the increase in the consumer price index over a corresponding period.

In addition, this increase reflects the government's continuing resolve to raise the minimum wage, recognizing the increasing cost of living and the loss of purchasing power. This increase complements the other initiatives this government has taken in response to the 1988 report of the Social Assistance Review Committee.

I am also announcing that the special minimum wage for students under 18 will rise to $4.55 an hour from $4.15. I am aware of a constitutional challenge that has been raised by some people who are opposed to the practice of having a special minimum wage for students.

Not wishing to prejudge the outcome of that challenge, I want to continue protecting in the meantime the interests of those younger persons who have succeeded in finding employment because of the special student minimum wage.

I am also announcing changes to the minimum wages of agricultural harvesters, hunting and fishing guides and liquor servers, as well as related increases in room, meal and housing allowances. These changes are appended to the statement.

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS

Hon Mr Sweeney: This afternoon I intend to introduce several amendments to the Municipal Elections Act. These amendments are being brought forward following extensive consultation with the Association of Municipalities of Ontario and the Association of Municipal Clerks and Treasurers of Ontario.

The most important change has to do with the way election campaigns are financed. As members may recall, following the last municipal election there was criticism about how some candidates used their leftover campaign funds. The legislation I will introduce this afternoon will require that surplus campaign funds be held in trust by the municipal clerk for use during the next election campaign. They can also be applied against past election debts. This will ensure that campaign funds are used only for election purposes.

Furthermore, in addition to the existing limit of $750 that a contributor can give to any one candidate, the legislation places a limit of $5,000 on the total amount a single contributor can give to all candidates running for the same municipal council or school board.

Concerns were also expressed about the way the laws on campaign financing and reporting are enforced. Current rules require individual electors to take legal action if they believe the law has been broken. Under the new system, the municipality or school board will be responsible for acting on a complaint from an elector. If the municipality or school board fails to take appropriate action, the provincial Commission on Election Finances can intervene.

The election process is at the very heart of our democratic system and it is therefore extremely important for people to have faith in it. The changes I am introducing today are intended to reassure people that their representatives are acting in their best interests at all times.

VOLUNTEER OF THE YEAR / BÉNÉVOLE DE L'ANNÉE

Hon Mr Beer: For the past four years my ministry, with the assistance of Volunteer Ontario, has recognized volunteers, who are the backbone of local social services, with the Community Service Award. Each year one person is selected from the list of 40 Community Service Award recipients to receive the minister's award as Volunteer of the Year.

I am delighted to be able to introduce my ministry's outstanding volunteer for 1989, Edna Simmons of Exeter. Today, Edna, her daughter Kathy Pryde, and Suzanne Symes, president of the Family and Children's Services of Huron County, are seated in the gallery and we welcome them here to Queen's Park.

Edna is truly a remarkable person, a representative of all those wonderful volunteers, young and old, who give of themselves in order to improve the quality of life in their communities.

Je suis donc ravi de pouvoir vous présenter aujourd'hui la bénévole extraordinaire de mon Ministère, pour 1989, M me Edna Simmons de Exeter. M me Simmons, sa fille, M me Kathy Pryde, ainsi que M me Suzanne Symes, présidente de la Société d'aide à l'enfance du comté Huron, sont présentes parmi nous dans la galerie.

Edna est une personne vraiment remarquable. Elle représente l'esprit admirable de toutes ces bénévoles, jeunes et âgées, qui se dévouent dans les nombreux secteurs de nos collectivités pour qu'une personne au moins connaisse de meilleurs jours.

For the past 10 years Edna has been actively working with the children's aid society of Huron county. Last year she contributed over 250 hours of her time supervising visits between children who were temporary wards of the crown and their parents. It is a role which requires extreme tact and patience. Edna acts on behalf of the child, but she must not alienate the parent, since these visits are crucial if reconciliation is to take place.

She is also involved in the prevention of child abuse by teaching parenting and homemaking skills to young mothers who have rarely, if ever, had the opportunity to learn from a patient and caring person. Edna has protected children as a foster parent and she has sheltered and befriended women who have been physically and emotionally abused.

Our agencies have many caring professionals, but it takes time, a lot of time, for abused women who are afraid or who lack self-esteem to learn to trust someone. Edna and volunteers like her are able to take the time to listen to people who are troubled. Through their understanding, care and daily modelling these volunteers are able to earn the trust and respect of those they help.

But that is not all Edna has done as a person who loves her community. Since moving to Exeter in 1945 she has been actively involved with every aspect of her church, from helping out at rummage sales and teaching Sunday school to being president of the women's group. She has canvassed for the Ontario March of Dimes, Flowers of Hope and the Canadian Bible Society, and she has sold Remembrance Day poppies with her comrades at the Royal Canadian Legion.

A widow these past 17 years, Edna has three children, five grandchildren and a great-grandchild.

Edna is a modest, humble person, and when I presented her with the award in April she said, "There are many other people who do more than I do." Perhaps there are, Edna, but you are an outstanding representative of all those volunteers who do what they can to improve the quality of life in communities across the province. We thank you very much.

RESPONSES

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr B. Rae: I am not aware of any scientific studies that tell us what the impact of a steady diet of crow is on the human body, but I think we are about to discover in the person of the Attorney General.

Hon Mr Scott: Can I get out now or do I have to stay for this?

Mrs Cunningham: Yes.

Hon Mr Scott: Is there some rule that requires it?

Mr B. Rae: I know the Attorney General is going to find it very difficult to sit quietly.

Mrs Cunningham: If the shoe fits, wear it.

Mr Jackson: You're not looking forward to your serum.

Mr B. Rae: I do not want to interrupt the Attorney General as he squirms. He is the only person who squirms out loud as loudly as he does.

If I may say this quite simply to the Attorney General, the last time this House debated this issue he said he was creating certainty and we told him he was creating chaos. He told us he was creating fairness and we told him he was creating unfairness. He told us he was creating a law that was enforceable and we told him he was creating a law that was unenforceable.

I want to say to the Attorney General that the law he has created has been declared by the Supreme Court of Ontario to be constitutionally invalid and to be of no force or effect.

The previous law that was passed by this House, which provided for a common pause day, was tested all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada in the Edwards Books and Art case and it was found by the Supreme Court of Canada to be fair and enforceable to provide for a common pause day. It was precisely because it provided for a common pause day, and that notion of providing a day of rest for people was found to be fair and found to be right, that it was said that it should be enforced by the law.

What we have in this law and in this Attorney General is a situation that is truly chaotic. What we have is a decision from the judge of the High Court. The judge states very clearly and categorically that in his opinion the municipal option, which has been so loudly trumpeted by the Attorney General, takes away from any notion of protecting a common day of rest across the province.

That is what the judge has said. That is what we said in this House in a debate which lasted over a year. One would have thought that the Attorney General, in an uncharacteristic display of humility, might have admitted that precisely what opposition critics well warned him would happen has in fact taken place.

MINIMUM WAGE

Mr Mackenzie: In 1975 a person had to work 50 hours a week at the minimum wage to earn a poverty-line income for two adults and a child. By 1986, 87 hours of work a week were needed. The minister is also aware that within a couple of months of the new minimum wage coming into effect, inflation plus the goods and services tax will have overcome it and passed the 8% the minister has given us.

The minister knows that what he has done is give us a Scrooge-like increase in the minimum wage. It does not come anywhere near what Thomson and the Transitions report said was necessary in Ontario to help those on very low incomes. I wonder if the Minister of Labour really appreciates being classed as a Scrooge with that kind of increase. I wonder also why he did not recognize the constitutional challenge, by the NDP youth, of the difference in wages for students in Ontario.

I think what we have is a disgrace as a minimum wage increase in the province.

VOLUNTEER OF THE YEAR

Mr Allen: I want to join the Minister of Community and Social Services in congratulating Edna Simmons of Exeter and her nominees, the Huron county children's aid society, for the award she has just received as Volunteer of the Year. Many of our community services rely for the enrichment of their services upon volunteers like Edna who spread their time across a phenomenal number of agencies and services in the community and give unstintingly of their time and energy to make life better in all of our communities.

At the same time, I am sure that all of those volunteers who work closely with those agencies are aware of the tremendous pressure those agencies are under at this point in time in terms of problems of funding -- 10,000 children who are lined up for services at children's mental health centres tell the story very dramatically. I think today's volunteers would want to tell the minister that it is not sufficient to have those services staffed often by people working on salary schedules that begin within the reaches of the poverty line.

While we extend congratulations, we are concerned about all those services and the way they are delivered in our communities and thankful for the volunteers who are among us.

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr Harris: I note that the Attorney General cannot even look at me.

Hon Mr Scott: Okay, Mike, let's get there.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Harris: Let me echo the comments that were made by the leader of the New Democratic Party, but let me also say a few other things in addition to that.

We have consistently said not only that this law was unworkable but that it was unfair, that it was very, very unfair. We now have a ruling by the court that agrees it is unfair.

I also find it ironic that the Attorney General is appealing this decision to the Court of Appeal when he already knows there appears to be little support for this law in that court. I refer to former Chief Justice William Howland's remarks on the opening of our courts this year, where he stated that legislatures should not be making laws that will not be followed by their people. I think we all know which laws Chief Justice Howland was referring to, because it was at the time the Sunday shopping violations were there.

I would suggest that this appeal being proposed by the Attorney General is far more like an election appeal than it is like a court appeal.

The former Solicitor General, the member for London South, said that passing the responsibility on to the municipalities would be "the chicken way out." The government has taken the chicken way out and it has obviously now laid an egg. The Attorney General and the Premier, in that approach, have laid an egg.

This law, even without the ruling that it is unconstitutional, is clearly causing chaos and is not working. Now we are adding to that chaos. We have drugstores that are now in the food business, the hardware business, the clothing business. We have corner stores that are now full-blown supermarkets. We have all kinds of video stores that are now selling TVs and other video equipment. There is no fairness from one neighbourhood or community to the next.

I am astounded that, instead of admitting that finally, the Attorney General is going to go through with these silly appeals on a law that clearly is causing chaos in the system today.

Hon Mr Scott: Want a little side bet on the appeal, Mike? How much money will you put on it? I'll give you odds; three to one, four to one, five to one.

The Speaker: Order.

VOLUNTEER OF THE YEAR

Mrs Cunningham: It gives me a great deal of pleasure and it is a distinct honour today to be adding our congratulations to the volunteer for 1989, Edna Simmons. The Progressive Conservative caucus would like to thank you, on behalf of the citizens whom we represent across Ontario, for the work that you do in the prevention of child abuse, for the work that you do with parenting skills and for the supervision of all those special children as they visit their parents.

We would also like to say that we think you work for a children's aid society that is outstanding in the province. We hope that together you will continue with your good work in your part of Ontario and that everyone will know what it is like to see great people like you, the outstanding volunteer for 1989, a person we need more than ever before. You are a great model. Congratulations.

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS

Mr Brandt: In brief response to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I am pleased to see that the minister is in fact bringing forward some changes to the Municipal Elections Act which will make the act fairer and more applicable to local situations. I speak specifically with respect to the maximum allowable contribution of $5,000 to the election in total, which I think will remove any suggestion of anyone being able to buy an election by way of financing at the local level.

I find it strange, however, that while the government is improving on municipal elections, it is enlarging the size of polling areas for provincial elections, which is going to make it much more difficult for people to vote in provincial elections. I think he should look at that one as well.

ORAL QUESTIONS

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr B. Rae: I have some questions again for the Attorney General on his statement today on the absolutely chaotic situation which exists now with respect to the question of Sunday shopping.

The High Court of Ontario has made it very clear that, in the opinion of Judge Southey at least, you cannot protect the worker's right to refuse, nor can you protect the notion of a common pause day, when you have legislation decentralizing all this power to municipalities. The judge did not accept the evidence of the former Minister of Labour, the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. I have got it right here in front of me.

He says, "The procedure under the Employment Standards Act may be as unreal in its expectation of effective protection as the suggestions rejected by the law reform commission in passages approved by Dickson." It describes the whole premise of the government as being unreal.

I want to ask the Attorney General: Instead of appealing this judgement, why not go back to the premise which underlies all the approach to legislation in this House going back to the mid-1970s, that being that we have a provincial law which provides for a common day of rest across the province?

Hon Mr Scott: I would like to thank the two opposition parties for their bipartisan approach to this issue, as their standing ovation when I read the statement indicates. I am very grateful for that and I am sure the public of Ontario will be respectful of the role they have played.

I think it is important to emphasize, particularly in light of the statements in response, that it was a previous Attorney General, the Honourable Roy McMurtry, who said first that the old law was unenforceable. I agree with him. That is why the government moved to pass the new law.

The honourable Leader of the Opposition is always very quick to put his eggs in one basket, hopefully a basket close at hand. He is now determining that this is going to be the only judgement ever given in this case and he is taking great support from it. What is he going to say if the Court of Appeal comes to

a different conclusion? For him it does not matter, because nobody remembers what he says that long.

The point is that an important judge of our court has concluded that this law is unconstitutional. We seek to have that judgement reviewed, before we act with finality one way or the other, by the Court of Appeal for Ontario.

The honourable member will remember that he heaped scorn on us when we went into the Blainey case and when we went into the separate school case, where we had some reverses initially. He will recall that he mocked us when Mr Justice Potts made his decision about municipal enforcement not long ago. We were sustained in all those cases. All we are saying -- I am not going to predict with assurance the result of a court case -- is that a single judgement has been made, with an important decision; we intend to appeal it. That is the proper way.

Mr B. Rae: I am not surprised that the Attorney General has the very clearest memory of all the cases he has won. The list is so short it is hardly surprising they spring immediately to the Attorney General's still-nimble mind.

The judge makes it extremely clear in his judgement that a critical error was made by the government of Ontario in changing the premise of the previous law. The previous law was tested, not once but several times, and it was tested all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada. Mr Justice Dickson said it was perfectly fair and reasonable for a Legislature such as the Legislature of Ontario to decide that having parents with a day off on the same day as their children, who are off school on the weekends, is fair and reasonable. The premise of that law has been totally undermined by the municipal option. That is the judgement of Mr Justice Southey.

Can the Attorney General explain why it is that the government decided to move away from the notion of a common day of rest, giving parents a chance to be with their children on the weekend, and get us into this legal mess which we are clearly in right now?

Hon Mr Scott: The honourable leader makes reference to the fact that I may not have won many cases. He has not argued very many, of course, because he entered politics almost incredibly young. The brief he has been given by the NDP to argue is virtually hopeless, and the prospect that he could win the case he is now forced by circumstance to argue is quite unlikely. He can be forgiven for that.

The point of the matter is, whatever the honourable leader's views be, the majority of the Legislature, as represented by the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party, accept the conclusion drawn, not only by judges but by a previous Attorney General, that the old law was virtually unenforceable. We moved to a new law. A judgement has been given by one judge. We respectfully acknowledge his right to judge and the seriousness of purpose with which he came to the task, but we are exercising our right to appeal.

I just caution the honourable leader: This is great today but, if we should win the appeal, what is he going to be able to say then?

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr B. Rae: If this case drags on long enough and if stores are able to be open, if the stay is either not granted or not respected for a variety of reasons or if the decision to grant a stay is appealed and then that decision is appealed again, the Attorney General knows as well as I do that by insisting on this law as his solution to this problem, he has created chaos with respect to the issue of Sunday shopping. He has to recognize that he has created it.

He told us the old law was unenforceable, and the fact of the matter is that law was ultimately sustained by the highest court of the land because it found it was reasonable to allow children and parents to be together on the weekend instead of forcing parents to work.

The Speaker: The question?

Mr B. Rae: Why not change this law so that it reflects the earlier consensus in this Legislature in 1985-86, that there should be a common pause day across the province?

Hon Mr Scott: The new law, as the honourable leader calls it, has not created chaos. In the year in which the law has been in effect, it has been applied fairly and consistently across the province and is working reasonably well. Most of the major municipalities have begun to apply its terms, and the vaunted domino effect and the failure of family values that the opposition referred to at the time of its passage have not occurred. The law has worked well.

The uncertainty now, and clearly there is uncertainty, is created by virtue of a decision of a single judge of the court, of unquestioned authority, who has concluded it is unconstitutional. If he is supported by the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada, it will be understood that the law will require amendment; but if he is not, the law will not require amendment and it will continue to work effectively across the province as it has in the last year.

Mr Brandt: What odds are you giving?

Hon Mr Scott: I offered four to one.

The Speaker: New question, the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr B. Rae: Let the record show that the Attorney General was not smiling when he gave that last answer.

The Speaker: And the question is to which minister?

PENSION REFORM

Mr B. Rae: My question is to the Minister of Financial Institutions, in the absence of the Treasurer. The Premier talked proudly yesterday about how in Ontario from now on it was going to be business as usual, and I think the Minister of Financial Institutions gave us a full flavour for that when he introduced some changes in Ontario's pension regulations which give a windfall to employers that potentially is worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

I would like to ask the Minister of Financial Institutions if he could justify why it is that the only change he has made with respect to pensions since the law was passed has been to benefit employers in two ways, by reducing the solvency requirements for plans and by specifically allowing for premium holidays, when he knows perfectly well that this is, as the Ontario Court of Appeal has said, allowing employers to do by the back door what they cannot do by the front. I would like to ask the Minister of Financial Institutions why he has given this $80-billion industry, involving the savings of hundreds of thousands of Ontario workers, such a good break.

Hon Mr Elston: Again, the honourable gentleman puts his questions craftily, in a manner which is designed to leave an impression that the world of pensions is falling apart. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, if he examined what really was announced, he would indicate to the people of the province that more is being done at this time to ensure that pensions in place for employees are more effectively viewed by the Pension Commission of Ontario; that the only steps that were taken by announcing the change in the regulations during my speech were to the effect that we will be giving people a little bit longer to fund their obligations which were put in place prior to the bill coming into effect on 1 January 1988, and that there has been no change whatsoever with respect to the funding requirements of obligations contracted after 1 January 1988 in compliance with the act.

He also knows that we have taken further steps to ensure that the people who are not finding their pensions funded up to the level that they should be will not have to wait for three years to have a reporting but in fact there will be yearly reporting of those pensions so that the individual people can follow very carefully and clearly the progress of the funding and stability of those pension plans. He should --

The Speaker: Thank you.

Mr B. Rae: Ontario is now going through an unparalleled period of economic change. We are going through a period when plants are closing down, when plans are being wound up, when workers who have been working in plants for 30 and 35 years are facing unemployment at age 50 or 55.

As of now, the pensions which exist in the private sector for 40% of the workers in this province have no guarantees with respect to indexing, no guarantees with respect to the effect of inflation, no requirements with respect to early retirement, nothing which gives them any control at all over the pension plan, $80 billion of their money over which they have no effective control.

The only change the government has made is to allow premium holidays for employers and to extend the period in which employers can meet the solvency requirements of a plan. They have given benefits to employers at this time of change and none to employees. Can the minister explain to us why he has chosen to back business and not give anything to the employees of this province?

Hon Mr Elston: The gentleman has made some allegations which are clearly not correct. He knows that the huge plans he would be referring to and were referred to in the context of the speech I made have contractual obligations between employee and employer to make certain things come about. In some cases, particularly in Canadian Auto Workers plans, as people have well heard in the press announcements, there are indexing agreements and arrangements which by contract are obligations. They are obligations on the company. They have part of the contractual effect of the collective bargaining that those people have gone through. So he is very clearly not correct.

He knows that when it comes down to funding and some of the issues around the solvency issues, the announcement I made a week ago Friday --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Elston: -- was to the effect that we would not require those items which were remote, so remote in fact to be unrealistic about ever taking place --

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Elston: -- that there would be no need to fund those --

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Pouliot: Getting deeper and deeper.

The Speaker: I must remind the members, we are now at 15 minutes and we have not finished two questions; so please, if possible --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I have kept track of the time --

Mr Pouliot: -- takes a long time.

The Speaker: Order.

An hon member: Gilles, cool it.

The Speaker: Really.

Mr B. Rae: The minister mentions the CAW. He will have received by now a letter from the secretary-treasurer of the CAW, Mr Nickerson, who states this explicitly about the changes that the minister has made to the law:

"The effect of this exclusion is to potentially transfer future costs of adjustment from corporations on to the backs of workers by leaving them vulnerable to the financial state of the pension plan at the time of closure."

To govern is to choose. It is perfectly obvious that this minister has chosen not to provide any guarantees with respect to indexing -- none at all. At the same time he has given two concessions to corporations that contribute to plans which are worth hundreds of millions of dollars to those corporations. So employees get no protection on inflation and corporations get a windfall. Why has the minister made this choice on behalf of corporations instead of choosing employees at a time of unprecedented economic change?

Hon Mr Elston: Again, of course, the honourable gentleman is not quite correct, because if he read the collective agreements CAW has entered into, he would know they have the inflation protection; only he will not admit that to the people of the province because it does not fit into his grand scheme of looking like he is standing up for something real.

In this situation it is quite clear. We are not going to require the funding of every event, even though it is so remote as to be unrealistic, in the pension plans. There is a provision currently which would have required a company to fund its pension as though every plant in the province was closed down simultaneously. Now that is not going to happen. We have made the decision that in cases of the very remotest type of activity, we will not require the funding to go to that extent, but we require a reasonable extension of the funding and we require the --

The Speaker: Thank you. Order.

Mr D. S. Cooke: You were going to bring in mandatory indexation.

Hon Mr Elston: It's coming.

Mr Hampton: In the year 2000.

Mrs Cunningham: In the next election.

The Speaker: Thank you.

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr Harris: My question is for the Attorney General. The Retail Business Holidays Act has been ruled unconstitutional, I believe, and I think most Ontarians believe, because it is unfair. This decision has added to the chaos in this province on the Sunday shopping issue. Will the Attorney General today finally admit that Sunday shopping is a provincial issue, not a municipal issue?

Hon Mr Scott: The honourable member will want to recall that Mr Justice Southey did not say anything about the unfairness of the legislation and would do well not to put words into his mouth. He expressed that it was unconstitutional and he gave the reasons for it. He is a single judge of the Supreme Court of Ontario, which after merger will have some 200 judges. He is highly respected, and I regard him as a significant authority, but we propose to appeal from his decision.

I would draw to the honourable member's attention that the concern about the previous law was first expressed by my predecessor, the Honourable Roy McMurtry, who said it was unworkable. It was a view that most sensible people agreed with. Now I do not know that there is any point in referring that authority to the present Conservative Party, because since the convention of 1985 it has taken such a radical turn to the right that people like Roy McMurtry would have some difficulty finding a home there, though the honourable member for Sarnia, who is a moderate man, has been able to do so, so there must be some space.

The reality is, we believe this is a good law. We believe it responds to the times, we believe it contains an appropriate level of local option to reflect local conditions and we believe the appropriate course at present is to appeal to the Court of Appeal.

Mr Harris: I hope the Attorney General's arguments before the appeal court are a little more cogent than the answer to my question. I asked the Attorney General, would he not admit that this is not a municipal responsibility and in fact is a provincial responsibility?

The government has taken the chicken's way out. It has now laid an egg. We know that. The Attorney General has had more than enough time and opportunity to tinker with the issue. The more he tinkers, the more unfairness there is for both employees and retailers across the province. Perhaps the government needs to finally admit that the people of this province are adults and that when it comes to this issue they are capable, far more so than the supposed smartest lawyer in the land, of making their own decisions.

Instead of insisting that the people of Ontario are not capable of making fundamental decisions, will the government consider putting the issue of Sunday shopping to the people with a province-wide referendum on this issue at the next provincial election?

[Applause]

Hon Mr Scott: Notwithstanding the universal standing ovation, obviously the Conservatives and the New Democratic Party do not agree. The Conservatives say I am taking the chicken's way out. The NDP say I am behaving like a bull in the china shop.

The reality is this: My honourable friend suggests, and I know he believes this, that there should be universal Sunday shopping all across Ontario. He said that in the last election campaign. But I say to the honourable leader, before he advances that as his party's policy, he should take a poll in his party. While he is doing it, why does he not ask them what they think about pay equity, what they think about user fees, what they think about rent review, before he just gets up there and says the view that he has is the view of all Tories in Ontario? I do not believe it for a minute.

Mr Harris: The Attorney General insists on refusing to answer any of the questions. Instead, he is more interested in my party politics. I have taken a poll of my party over the last month and I would suggest that the people of my party voted for giving more decision-making to and more sharing of priority-setting with the people of this province instead of unilaterally being in the hands obviously of the supposed smartest lawyer in the land.

Why will the Attorney General not come right out and admit that all the concern is not the result of worries over Sunday shopping? It is the unfairness of both the existing law, the former law and what he is proposing in the future. The main concern is over Sunday working, and regardless of the outcome of the appeal or a referendum, Sunday working, which is the real issue, is a labour issue and can be addressed in labour legislation.

We are faced with a situation today where, whether or not the government wins the appeal, there is more and more Sunday working going on in this province. Why will the government not deal with this issue up front and look at labour legislation, to give all employees in Ontario the right to choose their own common pause day, which suits their own religion and their own --

The Speaker: Order. The member has already asked that question.

Hon Mr Scott: If the honourable leader refers to the poll that was taken at the Conservative leadership convention, everybody will understand that was based on a most narrow and inadequate sample. There are fewer people from my riding who voted in that poll than phone me on a normal workday. If that is the poll which has led the Conservative Party all across Ontario to stand for a wide-open commercial Sunday, to stand for user fees in all social services, to stand against equal pay, to stand against rent review, I believe a new poll should and probably will be taken shortly when those issues will be thoroughly canvassed.

SOCIAL WORKERS

Mrs Cunningham: My question is to the Minister of Community and Social Services. Thousands of social workers, the public and a coalition of 50 province-wide social service providers have been asking for self-regulation of social workers for the past five years. More recently, in March, the community colleges added their support to this request.

It is unbelievable that this government has not come to realize the need for public protection. I would like to ask the minister if he is prepared right now to indicate clearly and unequivocally if the government is going to introduce an inclusive social work act to regulate social workers and, if so, when.

Hon Mr Beer: As the honourable member is aware, the Ministry of Community and Social Services put out a discussion paper, last year. That was looked at by a number of organizations through until December. Following that, I met with a number of organizations in the area of social work to discuss what we ought to be doing in this particular field and to look at particular issues and problems that had been raised during that consultation period.

Since that time, I have met again with all of the major players in this area and in the last couple of weeks I have indicated to them that I am now prepared to move with them in developing legislation. But I have indicated to them, as they have to me, that it is very important that this be inclusive and that we look to developing a particular framework which will ensure not only that the public and those individuals who are being helped by social workers are protected but that all those who are active in this field will be able to be part of a very fair and representative system. We are now moving towards that.

Mrs Cunningham: Dan Andreae, director of a province-wide campaign to get the minister to act for the past five years, claims social workers and the public across the province have been frustrated and angry that the government has not yet brought forward legislation to protect the public. I should say I am happy to hear that minister say he is prepared to move with them in developing legislation. My question would be, what does that mean?

Hon Mr Beer: It means precisely what I said it means, that we are going to move together with them in developing legislation. I should point out to the honourable member that we have a number of acts which indeed provide for protection from a whole series of problems that can arise in this area, so it is not as though the absence of a particular piece of legislation has meant that the public is unprotected.

In concert with those active in the field, we have looked at a number of issues. The key one has really been to say that we want to make this inclusive, that we want to ensure that those, for example, who are working with multicultural groups and with immigrant organizations will be embraced by this as well as those who have perhaps come from community colleges or universities.

I want to commend those in the different organizations who have been working very closely together to try to find common ground. There are still some issues which some groups have set forward, and that is why I have said that we are going to work together, but we are working with a focus, which is to bring forward legislation.

Mrs Cunningham: It is the last week of the session and we have been listening over a period of time to promises by this government for a child care act, for rest home legislation, for the receipt of the Maloney report, for extended services for integrated homemakers, for advocacy legislation. All of these were stated in 1987 and some in 1985.

We have heard the minister today. As far as I am concerned, what he has stated fits right in with the other kinds of promises. I need to know today if he is saying unequivocally that we are going to look at the introduction in the fall of an inclusive social work act for the province. Will it be in the fall, yes or no?

Hon Mr Beer: I will be very happy to share with the honourable member a copy of the letter that I will be sending shortly to the Ontario Association of Professional Social Workers, to the community colleges and to the Social Work Reform Group. We are going to proceed now. As I have set out, it is my hope that we will be able to resolve these issues in the fall and to move as quickly as we can thereafter with legislation. Clearly we have to look at the issues, but in my discussions with the individuals involved I am convinced that there is

a clear direction and that we can resolve the issues and see that move as quickly as possible.

It is very important that we bring together all those who are involved and interested. I want to make sure that the points are set out and that it is inclusive. I share with the honourable member the sense that it must be inclusive. I want myself, as minister, to make sure there are no groups that feel they should be involved but have been left out. I think we all share that view. If that continues, we can see that legislation.

TIMBER MANAGEMENT

Mr Laughren: I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources. The minister will know that during the class environmental assessment hearings on forest timber management on crown lands there has been a lot of concern expressed about the size of clear-cuts in northern Ontario. In view of the fact that large clear-cuts make regeneration more difficult, could the minister tell us what she thinks should be the maximum size of a clear-cut?

Quite clearly, the issue of the nature of our harvesting practices and their environmental impact is one of the key questions that is being discussed in the class environmental assessment, and the question of clear-cuts and the role of clear-cuts in forest management will be one of the issues that is addressed.

I would recognize, however, even as a layperson in the field, that the question could not be asked without being much more specific to particular species, and to particular site areas as well, because there are differences in practice which are most suitable to regeneration and to good forest management.

Mr Laughren: The minister is prepared to be as specific as the minister would care to be, but I think the point is that at the present time there are absolutely no legal restrictions on the sizes of clear-cuts. There are some sizes of clear-cuts that are rumoured to be in thousands of hectares.

I want to ask the minister, in view of the fact that there is no apparent end to those hearings on environmental assessment, why she cannot bring in interim regulations dealing with the maximum size of clear-cuts, by species if she wishes to do so. Will she make a commitment to do that?

Hon Mrs McLeod: I think that if I were to undertake a commitment to bring a regulation of that nature at this stage in the class environmental assessment hearings, it would be perceived to be, and in fact quite well could be, a pre-empting of the recommendations that are to be made by the class environmental assessment hearings.

I would also assure the honourable member and all other members of this House that in the interim period, prior to receiving recommendations from the environmental assessment panel, we do deal with the kind of issue that he is addressing with the question about clear-cutting. In every timber management plan that is prepared by the Ministry of Natural Resources, our concern is to look at the specific requirements of the area to be harvested, the environmental concerns that should be considered in dealing with that area and how we can best provide for regeneration.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr Cousens: I have a question for the Minister of Housing dealing with the controversy over affordable housing plans by Ronto Development in the town of Vaughan. On 10 April 1989, the Deputy Minister of Housing, Mr Davies, wrote Vaughan council recommending the plan. The land sold twice and increased in value by almost $7 million. Why would the Ministry of Housing endorse this project well before the application was made by Ronto to the town of Vaughan, and why would the ministry jump the gun and give advance support to a project when it was not even endorsed by Vaughan council?

Hon Mr Sweeney: Immediately prior to the deputy minister having written that letter in 1989, there was a joint meeting in York region with the regional chairman, the mayors of all the municipalities and representatives from the Ministry of Housing and the Ministry of Municipal Affairs.

The concern was that there was a significant lack of affordable housing and non-profit housing in York region. There was an agreement at that time that all parties would work together to try to facilitate more affordable housing and more non-profit housing. Someone indicated to me that the total number they were looking at was in the neighbourhood of about 2,000 units.

Shortly after that, Calabro Canadian Homes approached the Ministry of Housing and indicated that it had spotted a piece of land that would be suitable for between 160 and 200 units; if all the necessary zoning could be achieved, would the Ministry of Housing be prepared to support it? The Ministry of Housing said it would. The deputy minister wrote a letter to the mayor of Vaughan and indicated that very thing. That is the basis of the letter.

Mr Cousens: I accept what the minister has said. A fascinating process develops around new development. I am really supportive of so many of the things that are done by the developers in helping our area grow. I think there are many good decisions made by municipal politicians.

I get very worried, however. Yesterday the minister made a very significant announcement about new things for the future:

"We've got new planning models for Metropolitan Toronto." But we still have not cleared the air on some of the other things that have gone on, a $7-million increase there and the concerns about developers in York region, Peel and other areas.

Why has his ministry not gone down and made one other announcement, and that is about there being some kind of inquiry into the development processes and the Planning Act as it pertains to fast-growing areas in the province? He has made many other announcements. Many other things are going on, and some things are going wrong. Let's see what he can do in announcing something for the future to clear the air on this thing.

The Speaker: I believe the question was asked before you explained why you asked the question.

Hon Mr Sweeney: As a matter of fact, there is a joint cabinet committee representing five or six ministries of government, including my own two, the Ministry of the Environment, the Ministry of Transportation, the Ministry of Agriculture and Food and the Ministry of Natural Resources, which is doing that very thing. It has been working for the last seven or eight months to make significant changes in the Planning Act in relation to approvals at the municipal level and at the provincial level.

As soon as all of that is put together, and it is very close, this fall, then we will be meeting with the various regional heads so they can incorporate that change in the Planning Act into their official plans at the regional level. That is what is going to be able to come to grips with the particular issue that the member spoke about.

DISTRICT HEALTH COUNCILS

Mr Owen: I have a question for the Minister of Health. In Simcoe county we have had a regional health council functioning very well for some time now. We have had excellent leadership from it. The personnel involved have been outstanding.

I understand York region is now looking at establishing a regional health council as well. I wonder if the minister could update us as to the status of that process.

Hon Mrs Caplan: I want to thank the member for Simcoe Centre for his interest in this matter and also for his support of the district health council in his region.

The steering committee in York region passed a motion on 14 May to create a district health council in York region. At that time they set a deadline of 30 June 1990 to have a report prepared to be submitted to my ministry. Shortly thereafter, we will be meeting with the steering committee to receive its report and consider the establishment of a district health council for York region.

Mr Owen: I would like to spell out to the minister a problem that is possibly going to develop. The Bradford-West Gwillimbury area, which is in Simcoe county and in my riding, has doctors who have hospital privileges with the hospital at Newmarket.

They are expressing considerable concern that should the regional health council progress in York region, and they are now part of the Simcoe regional health council, where do they go? What is going to protect them? Do they have any input into what is going to happen with the Newmarket hospital and that regional health council when they are already possibly locked into the Simcoe one? Where do they go?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I would like to acknowledge the member for Simcoe Centre's efforts on behalf of his constituents in his riding. The people of Simcoe, as he knows, are very well served by the Simcoe county district health council on the matter of health services planning in that region.

District health councils co-ordinate planning for health services in various regions throughout the province and we rely on the DHCs to advise us on local needs as well as to assist the ministry with planning on a regional basis. Appointments to the district health councils are ongoing. Membership changes from time to time. It is difficult to predict where future membership might come from. People are always encouraged to apply for participation in DHCs.

I am confident that the Simcoe county DHC will work with the proposed York region district health council to ensure that health service delivery in the region is assured. I am also confident that this process will allow us to meet the needs of the member's constituents in Simcoe county and in York region as well. I know they will work together to achieve this objective.

NORTHERN HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Hampton: My question is for the Minister of Health as well. It is interesting to note that the Minister of Health said in the answer to the question just asked by the member for Simcoe Centre that the ministry relies upon district health councils to do local and regional planning.

In northwestern Ontario the Kenora-Rainy River district health council has, for three years running, recognized that there is a need for greater funding for nurses and for accommodation at the La Verendrye General Hospital in Fort Frances. The district health council has recommended that as the number one priority each of the last three years. The ministry has not funded it. Instead, it has funded other projects.

Further, the minister's colleague the Minister of Northern Development said to her two years ago in a letter that the need for an intensive care unit in the Fort Frances-Rainy River area is indisputable, and he goes on to cite all of the evidence why it should be funded.

When the district health council has told the minister three years in a row and the Minister of Northern Development has told her that it is a necessary item to be funded, why has she not funded it and funded other --

The Speaker: Thank you. Order.

Hon Mrs Caplan: We have had this discussion on a number of occasions in this House. The district health councils are important partners in planning. Over the course of the last couple of years, they have had a renewed mandate, a mandate which allows them to look at the bigger picture. I can tell the member that we have been working co-operatively with district health councils in light of our framework of speciality care as well as our capital planning framework and we take their advice very seriously.

Mr Hampton: It just so happens that the hospital in Fort Frances is not the only example. The Dryden hospital was recommended and has been recommended by the district health council for improvements in funding and in programs. They have put before this minister a number of innovative proposals and they have been literally stalled for the last five years. What is unbelievable about this is that Dryden is perhaps the fastest-growing community west of Thunder Bay and has a greater and greater population to serve each year, yet again this minister has ignored their pleas.

The minister's officials have a meeting planned with the hospital board on 23 July. Is she prepared to do something? Again, they have been recommended by the district health council. Is she prepared to follow the recommendations of the district health council, or is this going to be another stall with them too?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I am pleased the member opposite acknowledged the fact that the ministry is meeting on an ongoing basis and has a meeting established for July. I point out to him that my colleague from Kenora has been an important advocate on behalf of his community in ensuring that I am well aware of the situation and in ensuring that we respond appropriately to meeting the needs of Dryden, Kenora and elsewhere in northern Ontario within his constituency.

I will say to the member, as I have said to my colleague, that the meetings we have are very, very important. We take the advice of the district health councils and we have also been involving others in ensuring that we are as responsive as we can be to meeting the challenges of northern Ontario and the challenges of meeting the health needs of the people of the province.

SUPPORT AND CUSTODY ORDERS ENFORCEMENT

Mr Villeneuve: I have a question to the Attorney General. He is probably aware of the problems that a lot of people are having and the difficulty they have in contacting his support and custody orders enforcement branch. I have had problems particularly with the Ottawa office. Several of my constituents have found themselves unable to contact the ministry's Ottawa office through the toll-free line that used to exist.

The Attorney General created this particular branch, mostly to assist women, and now they have a hard time reaching those people who are supposed to be there to help them. What has he been doing to try to correct this situation?

Hon Mr Scott: As the honourable member knows, the support and custody orders enforcement program vastly exceeded all reasonable estimates in terms of its uptake. I think we are now very close to having 100,000 clients in about two and a half years of operation. Each of these clients, naturally and appropriately, regards his or her case as one to which the utmost priority should be given and, with limited resources, it is very hard to discharge that mandate.

The honourable member will want to know that about one in five people call the office every single working day of the year, which means that we have many, many thousands of calls coming in every day, many of them simply asking whether anything has been happening on the file.

In an effort to respond to this question, we looked at putting more people on telephone answering. We were reluctant to do that because to put people on telephone answering means you have to take them off collecting judgements, which is what we really want them to be doing. We therefore put in an automated telephone system which, while not a perfect solution by any means, has radically increased our capacity to answer the telephones and to provide information.

I would be grateful for any advice that the honourable member or other members can give us as to how we can make this really important service, which serves a clientele in which 90% are children, work more effectively.

Mr Villeneuve: There is no doubt that it is a most important service and very much needed. I have statistics here for the Ottawa office, which has gone from handling some 4,700 cases in 1987 to over 10,000 last January. The staff in the Ottawa office was cut, according to the minister's own figures, and actually is handling more files than the Toronto office with about 60% less staff.

Can the Attorney General justify this? This is the only office in all of eastern Ontario serving the people who need custody enforcement. Could he please explain what is happening there and what he intends doing to alleviate it?

Hon Mr Scott: As the honourable member knows, the staffing decisions of the support and custody orders enforcement program have to be made with regard to the needs of the eight regional offices across the province.

I would counsel the honourable member against judging that a volume of cases necessarily predicts one staffing requirement

whereas a lesser or greater volume may stipulate a different staffing requirement. Everything is dependent on the mix of cases that a particular office has. Particularly in considering the mix, a critical feature is the extent to which a significant percentage of the cases have arrears, and arrears over what period of time. Staffing determinations are made across the service in the eight regional offices.

The honourable member will want to know, and I wish I could say it in his presence, that the Treasurer has made significant new funds available to make this program work effectively in the current estimates. We recognize the important service it provides. We want to remind people that this service is new; it never existed before. People used to have to do this on their own. We want to make it as effective and sound as we possibly can. We are proud to have done this and disappointed --

The Speaker: Thank you. Order.

ALCOHOL AND DRUG TREATMENT

Mr Ruprecht: I have a question for the minister responsible for the provincial anti-drug strategy. Ontario spends almost $20 million in the United States on treatment of drugs and alcohol. The reason is simple. Many of the --

Interjection.

Mr Ruprecht: If you can quiet the Attorney General down, that would be a great idea, Mr Speaker.

Ontario spends almost $20 million on drug and alcoholism treatment in the United States. The reason for that is very simple, namely, many of the services are not available in Canada. Can the minister outline for us, please, if there are any rehabilitation programs or other kinds of programs which will make it possible for most of these Ontario citizens to remain here for treatment?

Hon Mr Black: The member will be aware of the fact that in 1987 the Minister of Health made a commitment to double the funding and the number of programs available to treat addiction problems. Since that time, that goal has been achieved. The number of programs has increased from 92 to 150. That is a spending increase of 126%. The total spending by the Ministry of Health for addiction treatment now is in excess of $43 million annually.

In addition to that, I should point out that there are also treatment programs financed by the Ministry of Community and Social Services and the Ministry of Correctional Services, and the total for the province is in excess of $60 million annually. That includes a $4-million initiative that we announced just in the past two months specifically aimed at youth.

Mr Ruprecht: I am absolutely delighted to hear that funding for rehabilitation and treatment programs has doubled since 1987. Is the minister also prepared to tell us whether in the future the gap between the $20 million being spent in the United States will be somewhat closed, perhaps in the next few years, after providing us with this tremendously great news that treatment for rehabilitation of drug and alcohol abuse will be doubled?

Hon Mr Black: Just a little over a month ago, we announced the appointment of an advisory committee on treatment for addiction problems. That committee has been meeting regularly during that period of time. I met with them just yesterday. They are in the process of preparing their first report, which we expect to receive early next fall.

One of the questions they are addressing is how we can more effectively use the resources we currently are spending for treatment programs. That includes the money that is leaving

Ontario and flowing into US treatment programs. I should tell members that the flow of those dollars to the United States is a matter of great concern, not just because the money is leaving Ontario but also because we are not sure how effective the treatment programs in the US are. We know that in many cases it is difficult for them to offer the appropriate aftercare programs that make addiction treatment programs successful. We are looking at ways to keep as many of those dollars at home as we can.

EMPLOYMENT IN NORTHERN ONTARIO

Mr Morin-Strom: I have a question for the Minister of Northern Development with respect to the economy of northern Ontario. The minister will be aware that the unemployment rate across the north is quite a bit higher than it is in southern Ontario and that in comparison with Toronto, which has an unemployment rate of 5% or less, communities like Sudbury and Thunder Bay are registering unemployment of 7%, Sault Ste Marie is showing an unemployment rate of 11% and other smaller communities have unemployment rates which go up from there.

Can the minister tell us why his government, this majority government in particular, has not done anything over the last three years to eliminate the boom-and-bust economy cycles in northern Ontario?

Hon Mr Fontaine: To answer the question of the member for Sault Ste Marie, I have an

article here where he is quoted as saying that in the Sault everything is okay. It is titled "Sault's Future Looks Bright, MPP Says." So I do not know what he is talking about.

He said: "Many firms looked northward to escape the high costs of land and housing and the shortage of manpower in southern Ontario. The opportunities for growth in northern Ontario are better than they ever have been in my memory."

Hon Mr Elston: How optimistic are you?

Mr Morin-Strom: The minister knows that I am always optimistic about the future. Unfortunately, there are those who could be contributing to ensure that this optimism comes to pass. That

article is an old one. The most recent headline, in Saturday's paper, says, "Tough Times On Sault's Horizon, Says Federal Economist." I do not necessarily agree with everything they say, but I do have particular concerns about the fact that the unemployment rate in our community is currently registering 11% and has gone up considerably over the last 12 months.

This is a similar situation to what is facing many communities across northern Ontario. Mines are being closed across the north. We are still facing the 15% lumber duty that this government agreed to and did nothing about. The steel industry is facing difficult times, while Dofasco remains one of the largest contributors to the Liberal Party of Ontario.

Can the minister tell us when he is going to return some of those tremendous tax revenues that northerners have provided to the south back to the north to ensure some stability in the northern economy?

Mr Pouliot: You're losing control. You're out of control.

Hon Mr Fontaine: I am not losing my control. I want to tell my honourable friend the member for Sault Ste Marie that what is going on in northern Ontario is not only the -- he mentioned a few things, the 15 %, the high dollar and the interest rates. I think this afternoon we, as a government, will have lots of time to discuss this. I do not want to answer that because I could talk for an hour about the money that is coming back to northern Ontario. We will do that later this afternoon.

I want to assure the member that I am not scared of the record of my government over the last five years, and I want to remind him that we are doing things that never happened before in northern Ontario. I will touch on that later this afternoon because I want to go into it in detail with my honourable friend the member for Sault Ste Marie, what we have been doing together in the ridings of Sault Ste Marie, Lake Nipigon, Algoma, Nickel Belt and Sudbury East.

Last night I was in Sudbury East, and it is booming, from what I saw in Sudbury. I know there is a problem of unemployment. I have always said we cannot do that alone as a province. The feds have to help us in the regions like northern Ontario.

Mr Wildman: Good representation there.

L'hon M. Fontaine : Que les députés se taisent et m'écoutent one minute, là.

The municipal leaders, and the people of northern Ontario, with the federal government -- if we all work together, we are going to have good days ahead of us. I am not worried about northern Ontario, because that is the place in which to live.

LIVING WILLS

Mr Sterling: I have a question for the Attorney General. It is clear that in Ontario a person has the right to refuse medical treatment even if the lack of that medical treatment would result in the death of that person, and our courts have held that in the case of Malette and Shulman.

Yesterday the Supreme Court of the United States, in the case of Missouri v Cruzan, found that there is a right to die if a comatose patient has made clear his or her intentions that he or she would like medical support withdrawn. Therefore, the US Supreme Court suggested that people in the United States draw up living wills.

This is interesting because amendment 14 of the US Constitution is very similar to

section 7 of our Charter of Rights in that they both contain the right of individuals to liberty, and that is the basis of its decision.

The Speaker: Does that bring a question to your mind?

Mr Sterling: My question to the Attorney General is, will he permit the private members' bills which I have brought forward to be debated by this House so that in fact the people of Ontario will have a legal basis on which to draw a living will? We could have also these kinds of bills sent to committee in order for there to be a full and proper --

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Scott: As the honourable member knows, thanks to his intervention, I have had the opportunity to read his bill and to read some of the literature that supports the concept of a living will. He will not be surprised to hear that while his bill has very great support and has my support, there are some real questions about the circumstances in which and the protections under which it can be operative.

I want to tell the honourable member, as I have told many people who have written to me, that I think the concept is an important and progressive one and the time is very ripe for it. I know he will want to address questions about timing in the House to the House leader.

MOTION

CONSIDERATION OF CERTAIN PRIVATE BILLS

Mr Ward moved that standing order 85 respecting notice of committee hearings be suspended for the consideration of Bills Pr59, Pr87, Pr90, Pr92, Pr93 and Pr97 by the standing committee on regulations and private bills on Wednesday 27 June 1990.

Motion agreed to.

PETITIONS

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

Mr Cousens: On behalf of the people from the riding of Timiskaming, who have asked me to do this, I present this petition:

"To the Honourable Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas it is the duty of free people to constantly guard and, if necessary, defend these freedoms; and

"Whereas the French Language Services Act elevates one linguistic group to lawful but unjust privilege over 95% of Ontarians; and

"Whereas the French Language Services Act has since 18 November 1986 been implemented in secret without the public being made aware of its implementation and whose access has been denied to the public and even to the elected members of this assembly; and

"Whereas such implementation is plunging forward at enormous cost, while health care, police and fire protection, municipal grants, education and the environment are experiencing cutbacks in funding; and

"Whereas no minority can expect for long to enjoy the advantages of a law that shows such reckless disregard for the majority's sensitivities; and

"Whereas the views of the majority of the citizens of Ontario were not represented on 18 November 1986, as only 55 of the 125 of the members of the Legislature were present to vote;

"Therefore, to preserve patience and goodwill in the name of justice, for the love of harmony, we implore the House to refrain from further implementation of the French Language Services Act."

It is signed by myself.

The Speaker: Before I recognize another member, I might suggest that the member may look at his leisure at the standing order pertaining to how to present petitions.

ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH

Mr Wildman: In line with your directive, I will introduce a petition. It is addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. It has approximately 1,680 signatures of residents of Ontario. It is requesting that the bill prohibiting the use of animals in cosmetic and product testing be brought forward; that is, Bill 190.

Mr Laughren: Whose bill was that?

Mr Wildman: That is my bill. Obviously I have affixed my name to this petition. The total number of people who have now signed this petition from across Ontario is over 77,000. I would hope that this would encourage the government to proceed with the bill.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Ballinger: I have a petition on behalf of the member for York North.

"To the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"We, the undersigned, hereby register our deep concern and outrage over the provisions of the new Ontario motorist protection plan."

It has 52 signatures.

RELIGIOUS EDUCATION

Miss Roberts: I have a petition from the constituents in my riding:

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"Request the government of Ontario to provide time for opt-in classes in our public schools for the teaching of religious education and moral ethics to all those students whose parents request it."

If this cannot be provided, they request publicly funded Christian schools on the same basis as the Roman Catholic schools.

I have affixed my signature pursuant to the standing orders.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT

Mr Laughren from the standing committee on resources development presented the following report and moved its adoption:

Your committee begs to report the following bill without amendment:

Bill 67, East/Central Ontario Recreational Trails Commission Act, 1989.

Motion agreed to.

Bill ordered for third reading.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

Mr Cousens from the standing committee on estimates presented a report on the estimates selected in the second round and the estimates not selected by the standing committee for consideration.

The Speaker: Pursuant to standing order 58(b), the report of the committee is deemed to be received and the estimates of the ministries and offices named therein as not being selected for consideration by the committee are deemed to be concurred in.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

MUNICIPAL STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

Mr Sweeney moved first reading of Bill 229,

An Act to amend certain Acts related to Municipalities.

Motion agreed to.

The Speaker: I believe the minister gave an earlier explanation.

Hon Mr Sweeney: This is for another bill. This bill makes several changes to municipal law. A number of the changes are intended to make the county system easier to understand and more accountable, and these changes have been endorsed by the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. Other amendments dealing with municipal borrowing and investing were developed in consultation with AMO. Among other changes, the bill allows municipalities and school boards to exempt nonprofit groups from property taxation.

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

Mr Sweeney moved first reading of Bill 230,

An Act to amend the Municipal Elections Act and certain other Acts related to Municipal Elections.

Motion agreed to.

ENVIRONMENTAL HARM ACT

Mrs Marland moved first reading of Bill 231,

An Act respecting Environmental Harm.

Motion agreed to.

Mrs Marland: The purpose of the bill is to establish a new civil remedy for the protection of the environment. The bill would permit any person to bring an action against any person whose activity is causing or is likely to cause harm to the environment. A court could order a defendant to pay damages to compensate the public for harm to the environment caused by the defendant's activity.

The bill would also permit a court to order other types of remedies, including granting an injunction. Any damages awarded against a defendant would be payable to the Environmental Compensation Corp. A court could recommend that funds paid as damages would be used to remedy harm to the environment caused by the defendant's activity and to restore, replace and rehabilitate the environment.

I also wish to acknowledge the Ontario Law Reform Commission's report, which was the suggestion of this bill.

444610 ONTARIO INC ACT, 1990

Mr Miller, on behalf of Mr Ruprecht, moved first reading of Bill Pr34,

An Act to revive 444610 Ontario Inc.

The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye"

All those opposed will please say "no."

In my opinion the ayes certainly have it.

Motion agreed to.

ENDANGERED, THREATENED AND VULNERABLE SPECIES ACT, 1990

Mr Wildman moved first reading of Bill 232,

An Act to revise the Endangered Species Act and amend the Law relating to Endangered Species.

Motion agreed to.

Mr Wildman: The purpose of the bill is to replace the Endangered Species Act. The act currently provides protection to endangered species of animals and plants. The bill extends this protection to threatened and vulnerable species. In addition, a minimum fine is provided for violations of the act. The bill also amends the Environmental Assessment Act to provide that the provisions of that act apply to any project that might affect the habitat of an endangered, threatened or vulnerable species.

CITY OF TORONTO ACT, 1990

Ms Poole moved first reading of Bill Pr77,

An Act respecting the City of Toronto.

Motion agreed to.

BOROUGH OF EAST YORK ACT, 1990

Mr Flesh moved first reading of Bill Pr96,

An Act respecting the Borough of East York.

Motion agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ONTARIO LOTTERY CORPORATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

Mr Black moved third reading of Bill 114,

An Act to amend the Ontario Lottery Corporation Act.

Mr Farnan: I do want to take this opportunity to make some comments. The minister will appreciate that the procedures we have in this House do not allow for members of the opposition to respond to the minister's final statement during second reading. The minister did make some comments in his final statement on second reading that I think are worth highlighting in this debate at third reading.

The issue at stake here is that, in designating lottery funds or lottery profits, from now on they be designated not only for culture, sports, fitness and recreation, but by Bill 119 they would be designated also for hospitals, and this particular legislation, Bill 114, suggests that they may be designated to be used for the environment.

I have argued at length that with the funds from lotteries going into the general consolidated revenue, we really do not know what dollar is being spent for what purpose. I have argued that the government is marketing lotteries very aggressively. In marketing lotteries aggressively the government is generating increased funds, and obviously the government will sell more lottery tickets if it has a sick child or a crippled child or a cancer treatment clinic on the lottery ticket than if it has a javelin thrower or a symphony orchestra.

The New Democratic Party, we have said, is not opposed to the fact that gambling is a reality of our present society. We can see many of the positive aspects -- it creates jobs and for many people it is a social interaction -- but we do want to say to the minister and we do want to say to the government that there is a dark side to gambling. If the government is aggressively marketing lotteries and generating in excess of $500 million per annum, the government must realize that many lives will be damaged as a result.

During the course of the debate we established that there was not one gambling rehabilitation clinic, not only in Ontario but in all of Canada -- not one clinic. We have a government that is actively promoting the sale of lottery tickets with not one clinic in the province. At the same time we are actively promoting gambling, we are sending Ontarians south of the border for treatment.

The point I want to make is this: It is fine that we are sending people for treatment south of the border. However, we only pay 75% of OHIP and the individual who needs treatment at that particular moment of time has to come up with 25% of the cost of the treatment. If you happen to suffer from the disease of alcoholism, if you happen to suffer from the disease of pathological gambling or if you happen to suffer from an addiction to drugs, at the moment in which you are broken in body and in spirit it is very likely that your financial situation is also in total ruin.

I would suggest not only is your financial situation in total ruin, but your relationship with those who are close and dear to you may have been severed. The individual himself cannot come up with that kind of money and those individuals who perhaps had relationships with him are in a situation where he or she cannot appeal to them for support.

We are saying that you can have treatment, but the treatment is south of the border and it costs 25% of the cost and the individual at that particular moment of time is not able to pay for that cost.

The minister was very generous in his comments as to my contribution to the debate and I appreciate very much his comments in his summation. I will just take from a couple of notes here what he said: "We listened intently and we listened carefully, because it was well-considered, it was thoughtful and it provided all of us with the opportunity to consider very carefully some recommendations which are being made by the member for Cambridge and which, I am sure, most of us in this House will consider and consider carefully."

I want to remind the House what my recommendations were. My recommendations were that we would take all the profits from lotteries and out of the $500 million, the half a billion dollars generated, we would designate 0.5% of the profits, half a cent out of every dollar, for gambling rehabilitation programs.

This is not something new. We look to other jurisdictions. In the rural state of Iowa in the United States and in the state of New York a percentage of lottery profits is used, not simply for gambling rehabilitation but also for rehabilitation for those who are addicted to drugs and for those who suffer from the disease of alcoholism.

Some of the jurisdictions south of the border have said, 'if a government is generating huge amounts of revenue through the sale of alcohol or through the promotion of lottery tickets, it is reasonable that a percentage of those funds be designated for the dark side of the issue." And there is a dark side.

I put forward in committee the proposal that 0.5% of lottery profits be designated for such a purpose and it was ruled out of order by the committee. I have not gone through the process of committee of the whole on the basis that the presumption, obviously, is that it will be ruled out of order in the assembly also. However, I remain convinced that it is possible to allocate or designate a specific percentage of profits from these areas to help try to rebuild lives that have been broken, either through alcoholism, through drug addiction or through pathological gambling. That is a reasonable request.

The minister himself has said it is reasonable and that we will consider it and consider it carefully.

The minister did not have the opportunity when the committee was sitting, but his parliamentary assistant did, to listen to the people who came forward and gave testimony at that committee, individuals who suffered from the disease of pathological gambling, whose lives had been broken.

One of the remarks made by the minister in the concluding debate for second reading went as follows: "I have to say to the member for Cambridge, although I sympathize with his views, although I recognize the validity of the points he has made, there is one link that is missing." Here is the link: "There is not at this point, to the best of my knowledge, research which clearly indicates the link between lotteries and compulsive gambling. There has been, as many members have pointed out, very limited research done, so we are not in a position where we can draw conclusive conclusions."

In a very technical sense the minister is right. If he is looking for a large study drawing a correlation between gambling on lotteries and pathological gambling, there is not that large study. It has not taken place in Canada.

But we had men and women in the flesh who came before the committee and said: "Look, my life has been destroyed. I have been buying up to $1,000 a week of lottery tickets." These individuals started off buying $5 or $10 worth of lottery tickets. When an individual is compulsively drawn to spend $1,000 a week on lottery tickets, that person is indeed sick. They have lost control. The urge is so great that they cannot control their urge. That individual is sick.

We saw, as a committee --

Mr Ballinger: Oh, get serious. Come on.

Mr Farnan: "Get lost," says the member opposite.

Mr Ballinger: I did not say that at all

Mr Farnan: We had a woman come before the committee. She was in tears. She had lost her family and she had lost her house, and why had she lost this? Because she had this absolute, uncontrollable urge to buy lottery tickets. There were other individuals who came forward and gave testimony, and the testimony underlines the dark side of gambling.

If the minister wants to delay, if the minister wants to stall, if the government wants to delay and wants to stall, it will say, "We can't do anything about this at the moment, until we have a study." While they are making their study, other lives will be broken. As those lives are broken, innocent children will suffer because an individual who is spending an exorbitant amount of funds to feed his gambling addiction or his alcohol addiction or his drug addiction may indeed be taking food off the table, may indeed be taking away the opportunity of a pair of shoes for the kids.

This government says, "We realize there is no clinic." Members have heard the evidence. People have come forward and said, "Lotteries are ruining our lives," and the government is saying, "We'll consider it." That is not good enough.

As far as the minister's argument goes that there must be a correlation between lotteries and pathological gambling, that is not good enough either. In the other jurisdictions in the United States where they have taken a percentage of lottery funds, they do not say it can only be used for pathological gamblers who have been addicted as a result of lotteries. They allow those funds to be used for pathological gambling whether it is on horse races or football or anything else. They allow those funds to be used for alcohol rehabilitation. They allow those funds to be used for drug addiction rehabilitation.

In the rural state of Iowa, using 0.5% of lottery funds, they have been able to establish 13 rehabilitation clinics, 13 in a small, rural state. I have to believe this is a problem that must be addressed.

"I say to the member for Cambridge," commented the minister, "that I am supportive of the positions he has made and that I recognize the validity of the concerns he has expressed. I want him to know I am prepared to work within cabinet and to work within government to try and address that problem, and to work with him to address that problem."

I want to thank the minister for that commitment and I want to assure him that I and the New Democratic Party will give him our total and absolute support in bringing assistance to those who suffer from all of the addictions I have mentioned.

The minister is also responsible for the government's war against drugs. As the leader in that war I have to say to him that he cannot be a leader if there are no facilities to serve those who are in distress. So he has our support when he goes to cabinet. I do hope the minister will comment on this fact.

Again, I am quoting from his second reading debate. "I remain unconvinced that taking lottery funds, which could suggest a link between lotteries and compulsive gambling, is the most appropriate way to address that need." The individual who is suffering from pathological gambling does not care where the money comes from. It really makes no difference to him where the money comes from as long as there is a clinic. It is a fact that if you suffer from the disease of alcoholism you could be on the waiting list for months. All members of this House should be concerned.

I want to make one further point. I moved an amendment. I moved the amendment when Bill 119 was being discussed, which was designating lottery funds towards hospitals, and I moved the amendment again in committee on Bill 114, suggesting that one third of all lottery profits should be directed to sports, culture, fitness and recreation. That was the original designation of all lottery profits.

The sports and cultural groups of this province have been saying to the government: "Give us the guarantee. Not your word, mind you, because the government will come back and say, 'Well, the Treasurer gave you his word you would get $120 million per annum over the next three years.' Well, $120 million per annum is not one third of lotteries." So the sports and cultural groups want a guarantee of a minimum of one third of all lottery profits and that is a reasonable expectation.

Mr Ballinger: There is no guarantee to life.

Mr Farnan: The former mayor of Uxbridge continues to interject during this important debate and to interject rather rudely, I might say.

Mr Ballinger: As if you don't do that.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Mr Farnan: It is unfortunate that the former mayor of Uxbridge does not take seriously this issue to the degree that he is prepared to listen to the arguments that are coming forward from the opposition benches. When I appeal on behalf of those who suffer from the diseases of alcoholism, pathological gambling and drug addiction and the former mayor of Uxbridge has nothing but abuse to shout across the floor, that is certainly demeaning of the process of this assembly.

They were the two amendments I called for. We will be looking for action on the part of the government in the future. There are people out there who are hurting. The minister has made a commitment. I sincerely hope that he is successful at cabinet. We will be watching carefully, as will many people across the province who are suffering from these diseases.

Mrs Marland: My comments on Bill 114 will be very brief because the concerns I have previously expressed about this Liberal government's continuing policy of using the lottery profits for more and more needs in the province are well recorded in Hansard.

Certainly we in the Progressive Conservative caucus recognize, if the government does not, that if the government were being fiscally responsible in its planning in the protection of the environment, as is addressed in Bill 114, or as was previously addressed in terms of the operation of hospitals in Bill 119, it would recognize that both of those areas of responsibility in Ontario today are paramount and cannot be left at the whim of lottery profits.

Frankly, the risk to the original organizations for whom the lottery corporation was established is very real. The recreation, physical fitness, culture and sports groups already have experienced an increase in rejections of their applications for Wintario grants. Just talk to any of those organizations and you will find that their Wintario grant applications are increasingly being rejected. Frankly, we think that for any government to keep going back to the lottery trough to use it as a cash cow to fund the problems that have been created by underfunding by this Liberal government of the protection of the environment and the operation of hospitals is simply unacceptable.

Mr Ballinger: Oh, come on, Margaret.

Mr Laughren: Spend, spend, spend.

Mr Ballinger: That's right.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs Marland: It is very significant and rather disappointing that the member for Durham-York is prattling away about how my comments are incorrect, because the truth is that some of the areas that we have already addressed in the debate of Bill 114 are becoming so crucial to the people of this province that this Liberal government will sooner or later have to open its ears, its eyes and its hearts and listen to the people of this province. They may find that the time for them to do that may be sooner than they have planned, because it may well be at election time when they find out the real truth about how the people of this province feel about priorities.

There are no greater priorities in this province, in this nation or in the world today than the preservation of the environment and the preservation of human health. If this government fails to recognize that the funding of recreation, physical fitness, culture and sports and all the programs that those areas encompass are in fact the practice of preventive medicine in keeping our people healthy, then this only goes to reconfirm the myopic vision that this Liberal government has for the people of Ontario.

With respect to the debate that is to follow the passage of this bill today in third reading I am going to restrict my comments, but only to say again that if indeed in Ontario today we had a responsible, caring, listening government with an administration that had any kind of clue at all about what was going on in Ontario, it would not turn to a lottery to fund the protection of the environment. That is what Bill 114 is doing. Frankly, it is just like everything else that we know about the Liberal government. If they do not have an instant answer, they pull something else out of the hat.

Mr Ballinger: Even your mother wouldn't believe that.

Mrs Marland: This Bill 114, I say to my friend opposite, will surely come back to roost in the archives of the history as to what the Liberals are doing in terms of priority for the government.

It becomes even more ludicrous when you read the bill itself. It just adds the words "the protection of the environment" to the long list which this government now has for the use of lottery profits. It does not guarantee any money. It has no dollar amount for anybody any more. It just says that the money will go through to the consolidated revenue fund to be disbursed at the direction and decision of the government. So we have no control.

When the lottery funds go into the big, black hole of the bottomless pit of the consolidated revenue fund, we have to sit and wait with bated breath to hear where these little pennies will be dropped out around the province to their favourite groups and organizations. Is that the way to fund the protection of the environment?

Mr Ballinger: That's the way the Tories did it. We aren't Tories.

Mrs Marland: When the member for Durham-York interjects, what he is saying is that this is the way it has always been done. Well, that in fact is not true. Bill 114 stands as a bill in this House today, I say to the member for Durham-York, Bill 114 stands as a bill in this Legislature today adding environment to the appropriation of money from the lottery profits.

I am standing in this House today simply to say on behalf of the Progressive Conservatives that our priority is that we believe the environment is far too important and far too major, a number one priority for all of us, to be funded by lottery profits which are already now depleted and have become far too thin a source of funding because of the heavy load that has been put on those profits through the previous bills of this government.

Ms Bryden: I am speaking on third reading of Bill 114 because I feel it is very important to report to the House on the results of the one day of public hearings which were held on the bill by the standing committee on general government on 14 June. Those hearings were held at the insistence of the New Democratic Party members on the committee to find out how the 200 groups in the cultural, recreational, fitness and sports fields that appeared at the 1989 public hearings on the Treasurer's lottery grab had fared under Bill 119 since that bill was passed in December 1989.

At the insistence of the New Democratic members of the committee, all of the groups, which amounted to over 200, received an invitation from the clerk of the committee to send in written comments or to request a time slot to appear. Since the notice was very short and the time allotted was very limited, only a few were able to attend in person, but a considerable number wrote to the committee.

They told us that they had seen no evidence of increased funding as a result of the Treasurer's commitment on the last day of the 1989 hearings to guarantee $120 million in 1990-91. Any grants they had received under previous grant programs were flat-lined and no additional funds were made available, either for inflation or for new programs or new groups.

The Alliance to Protect Culture, Recreation, Sports and Fitness in Ontario, which is an umbrella group covering a great many of those 200 groups that appeared, wrote to us. They had asked for a commitment of one third of the lottery funds, but they got no such commitment in either 1989 or now. They write:

"Bill 114 adds environment to the lineup for lottery funds. This being the case, we would like some further assurance that culture and recreation will continue to have priority in the use of lottery funds for growing needs.

"As you know, the Treasurer has committed a minimum of $120 million of lottery funds for each of the three fiscal years ending in 1991, 1992 and 1993. It would be comforting and important for us to have the details of proposed lottery expenditures on culture and recreation in the current fiscal year, now that the budget has been finalized. In this connection, we would all like to be assured that none of these funds are being used for activities previously financed by non-lottery funds."

Many of the groups that wrote mentioned that adding the fourth category under Bill 114 to the groups eligible to receive lottery funds put them at a further disadvantage in qualifying for any grants of lottery funds. The term "for the protection of the environment," which Bill 114 adds to the list of groups eligible to receive lottery funds, simply created a huge threat to any group that might think that if it had to compete with the environment, it would come fourth rather than first.

Let me read the Toronto Arts Council letter which it sent in response to our letters that went out to the previous groups:

"The Treasurer, in response to the Toronto Arts Council's concerns and those of the 100-plus deputants who appeared before the committee, assured the arts community that culture will remain a high priority and that the community can 'plan on $120 million a year minimum,' which would represent a higher expenditure than in past years. We were told that Bill 119 did not threaten the government's funding commitment to arts and culture.

"However, the Treasurer's recent budget suggests a very different reality. Although the average increase in the budget was 6.8%, the Ministry of Culture and Communications received a 1.8% increase. The result of this increase, after allowance for current inflation, is a reduction of 2.8%. In addition to the decrease, the Treasurer has introduced Bill 114...which will allow environment spending to be added to that for arts, recreation, sports, fitness and the operation of hospitals" -- and the Trillium Foundation -- "from 'dedicated' lottery proceeds.

"For the past five years, the city of Toronto has increased support to the arts by 264%.... The Treasurer's 'gesture' will have a critical cumulative effect on the already fragile health of the arts community. The municipal politicians will be receiving a clear message from the Treasurer of Ontario that arts and culture are not a priority in the government of Ontario's agenda. The city of Toronto does not have the means to make up the shortfall to the arts community which will occur as a result of the 1990-91 appropriation to the Ministry of Culture and Communications, nor does it have the political desire.

"Given this most recent amendment to the Lottery Corporation Act, again we pose the question to the committee on general government, the Treasurer and the government of Ontario: What assurances does Ontario's arts community have that culture will continue to have priority in the use of lottery funds? In this regard, the Toronto Arts Council requests details of the proposed lottery expenditures on culture in the current fiscal year, now that the budget has been finalized."

I would hope the minister will provide this information to the committee.

Another group that wrote to us is Dance Ontario. We all know that dance is a new and growing cultural field attracting a great many artists, musicians and performers in the province and adding a great deal to our culture. I quote from their brief:

"Dance Ontario is appalled to hear that the government is proposing to expand further the number of beneficiaries of lottery moneys....

"The lottery monies have already been wrested away f