PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assemhly For the period: 3:00 - 6:00 p.m. February 11, 1977

February 11, 1977 Tape 214 PK - 1 The Rouse met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKFR: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY NINISTERS NR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. HON. H. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to acquaint the House with the activities of the Fisheries Loan Board, especially the last meeting of that Board which was held -----recently. At that meeting sixty-six applications for loans from fishermen were approved, totalling close to a half million dollars. For the first ten months of the present fiscal year, Mr.

Speaker, 803 loans have been approved with a total value of $8.5 million, which is exactly double that of the previous fiscal year. The Board, Mr. Speaker, ~v-as established in 1951, t~v-enty- six years ago. Since that time 5,085 applications totalling $27.5 million have been loaned to fishermen for the purchase of longliners, for the repairs of longliners, for the purchase of electronic equipment, and engines etc. I am sure, Hr.

Speaker, my colleagues opposite v.rill be interested to know that the money that has been loaneu since 1951 totalling, as I said, $27.5 million, 78.3 per cent, I will repeat, 78.3 per cent of that total has been made since the present government took office. SONE HON • HE~1BERS : Hear, hear! HR. H. CARTER: I should poinb out too, Mr. Speaker, that 1976 ~-·as a bumper year as far as the Board '"as concerned \·Ji th 30.5 per cent of the total monies loaned by the Board since its inception in 1951 hein!,' madE.' in that yenr. SO~· !F EO~. ~ l E~lBEP.S: Hear, h£:ar! ~!R. h'. CARTER: Bounties, :tr.

Speakt'r, 011 small bo~lts havE.' 603

February 11, 1977 Tape 214 PK - 2 Mr. W. Carter: I think, Mr. Speaker, another statistic that augers well for the fish business is the fact that the average a ge of our fishermen has dropped in the past four years from forty-five years of age; now it is thirty-five. HR. SHALLHOOD: The average age of fishermen. Do you mean all fishermen? MR. W. CARTER: No. This, 1-fr. Speaker, , is the average age of people, skipper men, applying for loans lvith which to buy boats. And I think we can assume that these would probably be older on an average than the average age of the shearmen on board the boot.

But I will repeat, in four years the age has dropped from an average of forty-five years down to thirty-five years. MR. SMALLWOOD: Did the minister say whether there were enough to make that pretty representative of the industry at large? MR. \-1. CARTER: Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: How many person were involved.in other words? MR. \\' • CARTER: Mr. Spe~ker, the ~oard accepted up to the end of January, the present fiscal year, 1,096 applications. So that is a pretty - MR. SMALLHOOD: Eleven hundred. NR. \v. CARTER: Eleven hundred applicants. HR. SMALL\..JOOD: And at least five years before.how many? :HR. H.

CARTER: I do not have the average here, Hr. Speaker, but the previous year the fiscal year of 1975-1976 the Board received, I believe, well it actually did receive 520 applications, so the number of NR. SHALLWOOD: About half. MR. H. CARTER: applications hPve exactly doubled in the past twelve months. and the actual money loans has pretty well doubled Another interesting point, Hr. Speaker, is that the Loan Bc>:1rd,\ddch is limited iu staff, limited by l.t:s reptLttions, dL'alillg it i_ s ··.• 60 11 ~\. ~

February 11, 1977 Tape 214 PK - 3 Mr. w. Carter; interestin g to note that the record of repayment is 97 per cent~ in other words , in twenty, t-~hat? tHe ::. ty-six years, sinc,c 1951, the total t-~ri te-off of bad loans amounted to 3 per cent of the actual money borrowed . So I think, :~orr. Speaker, - HR. S.1A.LLHOOD : Is that not a record for Naritir:le Canada? MR. \.J. CARTER: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that is probably a record in any financial lending institution in Canada. Nm.v- 605

February 11,1977 Tape 215 AH-1 NR. CARTER: I am not sure of that but I \vould suspect from that 3 per cent that our fishermen are vood paymasters and that the Jo~ns given, like 1 sajrl totaling $27.5 million, 7r'l per cent of ~vhich. hy the wayJhave been given in the past five years. I think this speaks ~•ell for the fishermen of our nrovince. HR. S~fALLPOOD: Every newfoundlander can feel very proud of that. HR. CARTER: Very proud, and that,Mr.

Speaker, T think Hill dispel any suggestion on the part of my colleagues opposite that the present government is ignoring the plight of the inshore fisherman. t think the fact that we have approved that many loans, $R.5 million in the past ten months of the fiscal year, I think proves that fact. SONE HON. ~-fEMREP.S: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo. CAPT. HINSOR: Hr. Speaker, on this side of the Rouse He are very pleased t3at the Loans Board of the Department of ~isherjes is still operating. I might sav,Hr. Speaker, that there is nothing exciting about it.

It is just following the course which has been laid down by the previous government. It was the nrevious government who initiated the :!l.oans noard. It l·laS the previous government who had made the loans available in order that the fishermen could have changed their type of boat from the ordinary trap skiff to a longliner. And I would a~k the Hinister now \vhat proportion of that monev comes from the ferleral government? ~ffi. CARTER· None! SAPT. vliNSnR: None! All right, He ~·riJJ. accept the fact that none of it comes HR. SPEAKFR: Order, please! NR. RIDEOlTT: :1ow, nmv! Orcler, ple<1se! The hon. member.

C·\PT. \·T.;S t1f:: ---·- -- ·- Thank you, ~rr. SpP.:tke r. ~- li lH1

February 11,1Q77 Tape 215 AH-2 CAPT. PI~DSOR: the minister did not spell out for ~•hat purposes. Hm-1 many 1 o-:".Plincrs have hef'n constructed ~,,j thin the last t~vo or three years? Recause it is very discnuraginr- ~•hen \-Te hear of so many of the shipvards closing rlmm. Pho js doing the building 0f the longliners now? Are there any being built? If so, where are they being built~ In what cHrection are those loans made, are they made for gear, construction of smaller boats other than the type of the lon~liner or for the lon~liner or the longliner type vessel?

Those are some of the auestions I vmu] d like to direct to the minister. 'Hr. St~eaker. HR. SPEAKER: Hon minister of Public T·!orks. NR ROUSSEAE: ~!r. Speaker , as I Minister of Hanpm-rer and Industrial Relations I have a short statement here but I ~vould like to preface it with a few verbal remarks. For some time I have been extremely concerned • about hiring practices in~coincedentally,my district hut in the are of Labrador City and i.Jahush.

That concern ~- I think 'lis shared by many neople across the province, specifically in Labrador l·!est and many of the people who now live there are of course becominr, permanent,hut most of the ~eople are from the various districts of the other fifty members of this hon. House of Assembly. I think that successive governents have attempted to cope with the problem of emnloyment practices expecially in Labrador Hest and "'ith the purchase of ITlaterials and services fron this province in their own ~,rav.

And in five years I h!lve attempted to deal on an individual hasis with inctividual companies as an HHA, as a member of Ca>:d.net ann on ~'e 1 1alf of government, and in those three capacities to trv and noint out to th~T·l the various problems that we encounter in this 'Province and hoPP that thev would he 11nderttandin~.

In !11anv instances cnmnanies have co-onerated to some extent hut now and then thP nrohlem he comes out of 'Proportion, there is alwavs a li t.t le hit of chicanery an~ other pro~lerns involvrd. an d t o t h t' 11 (' (- ' ~ , ' o f t h i r; p r o v i n c (~ ·--111 i c ~ t i f I t i !',] i !1 t t1 i1 p .1 r 1 :H'l'

February 11,1977 Tape 215 AH-3 MR. ROUSSEAU: indicates that something is drastically wrong in respect to the content in Labrador City~Wabush of the working man and where be is from , and in the purchase of goods and services from thi.s province. I am comp1etly disconcerted with the reintroduction of the work permit by the province of Quebec,~~ich a few years ago when I was Minister of Manpower had the opportunity to talk to the then Minister of Labour, Mr. Cournoyer, the work permit was removed, was removed for a short time and 1;iTas reintroducted shortly again.~ And of course, I think the hon. members of the House know the nearness we share in Labrador t-lest with the Quebec border • ..

February 11, 1977 Tape No. 216 NM- 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: I had five constituents served summonses by the Province of Quebec because they worked in Mount Hright a felv years ago, and I have attemntecl to rectify t~at throu~h my colleague,the hon. Minister of Justice, and in my canacity as a minister in various federal-provincial ministerial meetings I talked to my counterpart from f!uehec and suggested that there has to he some amount of co-operation at least between the Province of fluebec and the Province of ~e,vfoundland and Labrador in that area of the Province vrhere we are so close.

But all the little things that we hear from time to time taken together, which has solidified and crvstalized in my mind needs some action. ~ Accordingly, on my mvm initiative and with the concurrence of government ~vhich is nernissable by lmv, I am today announcing the appointment of the hon. :'-fr. Justice Runert F Bartlett as an industrial enquiry commission to investi~ate em-ployment !Jractices in the tabrador City - '\·Jabush are;; anc1 to mal~e recoromendations to the minister aimed at eliminating those problems. I have given Mr.

Justice Bartlett the follm·Jing terms of reference: number one, to examine the ratio of ~e,,•founcllancl and ---Labrador '"orkrnen employed in Labrador ·city - ~Jabush, in relatiCin to workmen from outside the Province. THo, to investif!ate the incidents of "contracting out" by mininp companies in Labrador C:ity - ~Jacush and the imnact that has on the emnloyr'lent of 'tvorkmen from ~.rithin this province. Third, to consi~er an~ recommend on the feasibility ann practiettbility of introducing some system of work permits to apnlv to work in Labrador.

For to examine current regulations con•: -!i.inr: the registration or foreip.:n or extra-provincial comnanj •?S onere~ tin~ ,.,•ithin the Province and recommend such chanr:es as t~ay be deemed necessarv. ;nl .. (' t (i 0 q

t February 11, 1977 Tape No. 216 NM- 2 MR. ROTJSSF.AU: I intend as a minister of the department,and government does. to r.ivP. al] nossible assistance to '!r. Justice R~rtlett. I would c~rtainlv hope that his findin~s will he sneedily receiveri hv me and I look forward to receiving them and such recommendations as he T'lay m~k(', SO~!'E HO~. ~-u:~IBERS: Hear! '1R. ROBERTS: '.fr. Snea~·-er, I think that members on all sides of the House \vill welcome the announcement that Judge !3artlett, not Mr.

Justice Bartlett, Judge Bartlett of the District Court of Bonavista - Trinity Concention, an eminent citizen of this Province and an admirable jurist and before that a distinguished memrer of the Bar, and briefly)but with distinction, Sir, a member of this House. I think all members will welcome the news that Judge Bartlett has been appointed by the Cahinet at the reQuest of the minister to carry out this very imnortant study. It is certainly one ~.;hich has been oft requested.

There ~as been considerable controversy over the last few· years as the minister adverted in his introductory remarks, and I think the right and proper way to anproach it is to appoint a commissioner to look into the matter,to get all the facts,and \V'hen we know exactly and prcisely what the facts are then I would think \ve shall see exactly \vhat remedies are nP.eded and the pressure necessary to nroduce these remedies, the public pressure necessaru will thereby be generated. t think that Judge Rartlett is an admirahle choice, a fair minded man, impartial, diligent and knmvledgeah l~ :mci T am sure he \vi 11 ~:tve us a - NR.

ROPSSEAl': '~. R()BFRTS: l·:clJ he is -~ \lc-vfound 1 ;:mder, ves of course. from an cxtrc-ncly distinguished family hut one with a long connection .,r~, r.1.Pt:-tin r:o~' T",;1,.t""l('tt, n0rtl1 ~11 ~1.,.n\• ('~ t 11l'

February 11, 1977 Tape No . 2111 NH - 3 .fR.. RORERTS: expeditions, the Polar F.xploration Expedition i n the J93n 's,T heJi.e vE' it v7tts . Jucige Brtrtlett H:1~ llll'te a younR nan t hen . I mav add also a farner a\" partn r of the prese nt member fot St. John's f:1s t a gentleman '"ith "17ide connections in the com~unit and a very rlistin~uished record indeed . So we wrlcomc the a~pointment of it. It is a very im!)ortant topic.

Any member t-lho has had any experience at all 111ith fTestern Labrador !r..nor.vs that there are very deep feelings among r>eonle there, the business community, the labour unions all interested groups and bodies in the area, this feeling that contract in~ out is vTor1dng to t ~1 e disadvanta ge of our Province and to the advantage of another Province, the feelin~ that our tvorkmen, ewfoun dlande rs and Labradorians ~ are being discriminated a~ainst in f~vour of t-~or:kmen from another Province and the Hay to get at it is to get the facts on the record and then t·1e Hill be in a . osition to see tvhat should be done . s-o, Sir, I welcome the minister's initiative and cong ratulate him and as ah,rays I hope that '"e tdll have a quick reoort an d that sneerly and effective action tvilJ fol lot.,r that renort. tv n1 1

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 217 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. HR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, just before we do tl1is NR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: - there is a very minor point but one which could conceivably be of some importance. I have just been reading y~sterday's Hansard, and I am not sure of the procedure on this, but there is quite a grievous error on page 576 reporting the speech of the gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Neary), his discussion with the gentleman across the House.

It has substituted improperly the name of the gentleman from ~lenihek where it should sl-;.ould show the name of the gentleman from St. Barbe. And in view of the fact that this historic document, Sir, will be in the Archives and other places, I do think- I do not know what the procedure is, perhaps Your Honour could tell us - it should be corrected. It is just a straight error on the part of the transcription. MR. SPEAKER: I tvill draw that to the attention of the Editor of Debates. PRESE L~ TING REPORTS OF STA.t~DING AND SPECIAL COMHITTEES: The hon. Ninister of Health. HR. COLLINS: Hr.

Speaker, I have the followin g reports to table: The ~ v ~ ~ ~ '-J-. ~nnual Report of the Newfouhdland Hedical Care Commission; amendments to ( . ._,/' B~~~ the Newfoundland Hedi;i"-Care Insuranc'/., ~d the .fis heries . and Enquiries Regulations; ~mendmentft to the Newf~dland !!edica;= Care Insurance (Insured i ~ ~ ' ·+ . Service)Regulations; and amendm~nts to the Hental Health Regulations. ~!R. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Finance. HR. DOODY: '--{-- )< Your Honour, I ' table the Special Warrant, Rural Development, $500,000 for the funds required for the subdivision 1606-04.

That is -; the $500,000 to provide the additional funds to be used as loans for special assistance for the sawmills, the programme that \.;as announced by the han. minister a day or so ana. NR. NEAr~Y ';~. :;lliJiJY: \--'hen w:1s the Sp('C j .:tl \.Jarrant :H\!l()Uilccd? Sp~c L1l lhrr·wt ~; ,... 4 ') u 1 '·'

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 217 Page 2 - mw MR. DOODY: Three days. You have three days grace 7I have been told. Three days from the time the warrant is issued to the time that it is tabled. HR. ROBERTS: But it is proper to adopt the report even while the House is in session.? HR. DOODY: Yes, to my amazement.! did not think this was so. But I have been told by my very high paid and efficient advisors from Justice and other places that this is indeed correct. If it is not, I will take it back again and put that $500,000 back in the public purse. I also have to table under

Section 45 (2) of the Financial Administration Act, "The department is required to ---report to the House of Assembly within fifteen days after the commencement of each session all temporary loans raised under Sections 44 and 45 of the act." That is a long comprehensive list of loans and repayments which are probably of interest. We also have to table under

Section 51 of-paragraph (3) of the Financial Administration Act, the guaranteed loans paid in part or in whole since the last sitting of the House. Once again this has to be done within fifteen days of the opening of the next ensuing session. HR. ROBERTS: Has Bide Arm been brought ur yet? MR. DOODY: No, Bide Arm - that was last years. We did that one. MR. ROBERTS: It has been paid off? NR. DOODY: Yes, we have paid that one off, and have taken a little mortgage on it instead, a very little mortgage. HR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) an assP.t (Inaudtb]

e) MR. DOODY: No, there is a little footnote on the prospectus. Carol-Wabush Co-op; Hotel Buildings, Paragon Hotel Buildings Limited are the three that are listed here. HR. R. ~lOLl RES: Are these payments under guar -~~e? HR. DOODY: The amount guaranteed in the first instance, Carol-\~;1bush, v,ras $250,000. Payments made durin~ tile period )/ 12/7 5 to nm..r, $2Jo ,430 ,_. .. ~ .. fi 1 ]

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 217 Page 3 - tnw Mr. Doody. which is the amount that we had to pay. We recovered the difference_, which was minimal. MR. ROBERTS: lR. DOODY: We definitely paid the full loan. Yes, for all practical purposes. Hotel Buildings Limited, there is $1. 3 million repaid on the $9 million guaranteed, and Paragaon Hotel Limited, $400,000 ~ payment made to $32,195. MR. ROBERTS: The $1.3 million,is that a one year payment? HR. DOODY: Yes. MR. ROBERTS : Is there no recovery? MR. 00_9DY: That i .s the difference in the recovery and the payment that we had to make, another great deal.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH ~o:riCES HAS BEEN GIVE:~: HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, I beg leave, Sir, to reply to a question asked of me by the member for Fogo district (Capt. i-iinsor) concerning an item that appeared on page ninetv-three of the Auditor General's Report concerning I . I I ( I ! ..

February 11, 1977 Tape 218 IR-1 1fR. H. CAPTEP : the leasing of cars,the cost of which was I believe about $7,000. '\. ~ ~fr. Speaker, the ansl.rer to the question fs that these cars were \ lease~ by regional representatives operating in the outlying parts of the Province tmo l-!ere engaged at the tiJ,e in work ~,y j th respect to the gear replacement progral'litle. The period, '~· Speaker, for the leasing was I believe seven months. A reauest Has made cf the car pool for cars. Fnfortunately none l-7ere available, particularly for that perjoc of time. And if the mileage, vr.

Speaker, that was used was paid for by their private cars the cost would have exceedec the actual rental of the two cars in question. This was not on a strict so much per mile. It was, I understanrl, on a monthly basis and like I said it Pas for a lengthly perio~ during "'hich time the people concerned were quite actively involve~ in work jn connection with the gear replacement programme. Y.r. Speaker, whHe I am on my feet I shoulc1 point out maybe that all references made to the nepartmen~ of Fisheri .es in the Auditor General's report are being responc1ed to by rny officials. It ~·'as done so some ~veeks ago.

I am sure that the rnell'bers opposite l.rill have a chance to examine the responses that ~·'e have made,Phi ch in roy opinion were satisfactory,when this Matter cotnes up before the Public Accounts Committee. rertainly there is no attempt to cover anything up as certain members today have been suggestjnr in the ne\·!S media. ftll - I repeat - all references made to the I'epart!Tlent of Fisheries in this report have been satisfactorily responder to hy T".Y officials. S0!-1'£ HON. }'E'~EPS: Hear, heetr! The han. l'inister of Manpo"Ter and IndustrinJ ~elations. ~fl'. T'Ol'S SFAP: '·fr.

Speal (er, I have a couple here. First of a1l , I - mdertook on beha] f of the me!Tlber for Conct"pt j on Rav Sc-utl: U'r. :·lol an) ,...... on th1s question of T'orninion Stores the other cay tl•<1t T ~··ou1c1 tc>l C' it r, 1 ~,

February 11, 1977 Tape 218 IB-2 ~ffi. ROTTSSF.:AU: industrial area of Labrarlor City and Hahush but any six or seven or eight enployees is also a matter of concern to th:fs ~overnrnent. I have written the district manager of nol'linion Stores, and I am r,oing to put on record the letter hecause the ~entleMan puts on record his thoughts as well. "Dear ~fr. Armsworthy: I am ~7iting to ex~ress not only my concern but the concern of govern~ent over your announcement yesterday of the phase out of your St. John's accounting r1.ivision Pith the conseouent loss of emplovment in this Province.

"Under normal circumstances I would expect a Company such as yours to exercise the common courtesy of inforMing the nepart~ent of Manpo,.Ter ~me! Industrial Pelations of any impend:f_ng aho] ition of jobs so that we could endeavour to find alternate employment for those affectec. To say the least, your failure to inforT" us of this action :is ir.excusab] e and rn.ore especially that you dicl not prov:f de information on the proposed action ~.;rb.en rny Deputy teJ.ephClnec you on February 8 whe11, :in fact, you macle a public announcel'!ent of your decision a few hours later.

It is that type of lack of consicleration for the consequences of loss of jobs and unemp)oYlJlent l·•h:fch f11oves Governments to introduce Jegislation to restrict such actions. 11! shall he contacttng your Divisional Yanap,er on th-is matter in the hope that a repetition of this d.oes not occur. n I have "-rri t ten Yr. Uinneau, the T)j vis :ion ~·ana~er i P. Ha 1 i f ~x. "I aTTI enclosing a copy of a letter which I have sent to your District Yanger, Mr. r..F. Art!!s"•orthy, here in St. John's.

"Needless to say, :it i.s upsetting to rovernment in a province such as ours with extremely hi r,h unernplo~TJent ,,,hen larre, ,.:cl 1 e~tahUshecl comp.<m:fes snch as yours, fail to in f onr us of impencling chan~es in operations or structure ~~ich could result in "P. PI'! ' '; SF \l ' : ,~.nd, ''r. ~pf'nl:.f'r, T l•.!VC ll;,r' tl't' ~'T'T'<' rtun it,. ' •' c't' :· --\ ~-h one <et of n ·,ooo'"' to th ,,,..; t<•r f'en •• r;>l ' " renon. T ' ''"' I, 1 r I I . l

February 11, 1977 Tape 218 IB-3 1iP.. ROHSSEAP: tiTl'e this morninr:~because I spent the v>hole morn:fnr nver in the nepartment of ~~~npower. Rut bett.reen the other ] itt] e problems T ha~ a chance - an~ T a"' r-oinr to read this into the record. I have already p,iven a copy to the hon. Memher ~no has been asying the questions, and I presume it :fs a question that has been posed for prior notice. First of all,the payment without appropriation for unuse~ accoTl'modation, to read it into the recorn, because yester~ay T gave l-!hat I thought ~.ras an accurate ans~!er.

This department ~id not provide in its 1975 and 1976 estimates for the payment of expenses incurred for rental of a trailer at Habush because under normal circumstances there ~11ould be no charge to government. In this case the occupant of the trailer ~-1as an employee of the department. On October 25, 1974 he resigned to accept a position w~th the Department of Education. It was the depart~ent's intention to refill the position i!lli11ediately but a suitable c;mdidate Has not found untU January 13, 1975.

Re came on staff nn Fehruary 10, 1975 and following a period of orientation and training at the St.John 1 s office ~ rnoven to Habush in ~.fay or 19 7 5. It \o.ras our experience that housing \o.Tas at a preT'!iutTl in Habush and to reJinquish the lease on the trailer vrould have put ·us in a position ~rhereby we may not have been able to offer suitar>le accommodations to our ne\-~ eMployee and thus be unable to provide a service to the Labrador area. ~~ I

February 11, 1977 Tape 219 PK - 1 Mr. Rousseau: as hon. members know there are 1,60-odd apprentices with the Iron Ore Company of Canada, :md some 60 with Habush !-tines, 550 apprentices certainly have a right to the services of an apprenticeship r.fficer. The period between October 25 and December 29, 1974 the plumbing fixutres in the trailer froze~which is not unusual in that temperature and climate, and cracked~necessitating major repairs. The only other employee in our Habush office was a clerk- steno who could not be expected to conduct a check on the trailer.

With the exceptionally cold climate experienced in ~-.'estern Labrador in the \oJintertime one would have to maintain almost hourly checks to ensure that the furnace was operating properly. This would have cost more in wages for a watchman than the amount paid out in repairs. The second matter,the unsatisfactory control of a consulting contract: The Auditor General's report made reference to the fact that a consulting contract for the Buchans Task Force \vas not awarded to the lowest bidder, since bids range from $14,500 to $23,628, and in actual fact the award was on the basis of a bid of $20,000.

Selection ~ms based on the content of the bid, and the understanding of the job involved as assessed by knowledgeable and technical persons in that field. The fact that work commenced before the formal agreement Has entered into does not, I submit, in any \vay violate the Financial Administration Act, since in fact Treasury Board had already approved the Task Force Budget \vhich included funds for the consulting contract.

The Chairman of the Task rorce insisted on a fonnal agreement, but because there was a severe time constraint for completion of that study \..-rork \-.'as commenced pending drafting of a fanner contract hy the Department of Justice. The cousult:mt \vas advised by the Task Force .11ithout prior knm.;led:·e LH" approv:!l of tlw ilepnrtment $ J 7 , (){I() • '!' he i r d , · c i ~; i on \v <h h <t ~; c> u "n Ll1 v f : 1 c t. t !1 , 1 t :1 par t i . 1 I I \' l' 1 I ' , ,....,

February 11, 1977 Tape 219 PK - 2 Mr. Rousseau: complete study was useless to the Task Force and, in effect, a waste of the original $20.00. Furthermore an informed opinion after appraisal of the job being done by the consulting firm gave advice to the effect that the completed project would be excellent value for the amount of $37,000. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. ~R. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice. - ~auld the minister please bring the House up to date with respect to t he situation in Western Labrador at the Iron Company of Canada operations in Labrador City. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the latest report that I have had on ~e situation at Labrador is that there are thirty persons - ~ ~ the picket line, and things are peaceful at this time. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. :HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, in light of the news reports overnight of the, shall we say, difficulties which have occurred, and in light of the fact that apparently there is a work stoppage underway, call it a strike, call it what one wishes, is the minister ·now in a position to tell us when the Industrial Enguiry Commission which he announced in the House the other day will,in fact, be appointed? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Justice. MR. HICIOIAN: I indicated to the House last week, Hr. Speaker, t hat I would hope to engage a suitable person within one ~.;reek, and I am still ~.;rorkinr, to~:ard that deadline.

I am a>-.raiting, hopefully, an affirmative reply from a very suitable person hopefully over the weekend. :-!R. RORF.RTS: A further supplcnentary. :m. SI'L\KFF.: A supplementary. . 1i \ ~ l

February 11, 1977 Tape 219 PK - 3 Mr. Speaker, has the minister given consideration MR. ROBERTS: ~ a broadening ' of the scope of the enquiry, a request,which I understand,has been made by the union involved, hut if it has been made formally to the minister or not I do not know. But has the minister given consideration to broadening the scope of the enquiry beyond the aspects he announced the other day? And if so, what is the result of his consideration, Sir? Will the enquiry be broadened? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Ninister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: I am not sure, Mr.

Speaker, with the present situation that is existing right there now that I ~.;ant to be in a position ~~ make a very definitive statement on the broadening of the enquiry other than to say I am working toward that end. MR. S • NEARY : A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from LaPoile. A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House on whose request ~e seventeen, I think it J:_s,extra ~OW affj ~Qrs were senJ;_ il~t:o Labrador City? Did the minister take the initiatige hinself? Was it at the request of the company or the unicn, or anybody in Labrador City? How ( .. ' 0 ,.~ .

February 11, 1977 Tape No. 220 NM - 1 ~-m. NEARY: come these seventeen RC~~ officers were sPnt from Corner Brook to Lnbrndor r.ity7 MR • SPE.'\K'P~. : The hon. ~inister of Justice. NR. HICK"!A~: Mr. Speaker, and I cannot be absolutely definitive on that, I ~-Jas not a\-Jare that the seventeen men had gone into Labrador City until I received a call from one of the radio stations this morning.

Last night I com~unicated with the - because I had heard that there was so~e difficulties in Labrador City-- I communicated with the Chief Superintendent, the Conmanding Officer of the RCMP in Ne~-Jfoundland and asked him to keep a very '-ratchful eye on the situation. He assured me he \-JaS alreadv doing that, and that is a iudgemental decision that does not need ministerial a'!"proval, that he would make certain that an apnronrinte number of officers and men from the Royal Canadian ~1ounted "Police \Y'ould be in Labrador City to meet any exigencies that may or lT'.av not arise. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary. - - - - - -- ~ffi. SPEAKER: A fursther supplementary. :>rR. NEARY: Nr. Speaker, \·muld the minister then tell the House if the R~ can move their constables, their police,around the Province without consulting, vlithout the a-pproval of the minister. Is the minister telling us that the RC~P did this on their own or ~-Jas it at the minister 1 s request? MR. HICK~~N: ~o. '"!R. T\IEARY: I mean the minister is doin~ some nrettv fancv figure skating on thin ice, vou know,who authorized it? '-m. HH~K~fA~: ~r.

Sneaker, I feel thnt as a resnonsihle member of t:tis House, and as a resnonsihle minister T si-loulcl be verv cnreful and p;uarded in my co~ents on a situation that at this ti~c has not heen ahsolutelv res0Jve~. ~fR. NEARY : Hell if VOl! clicl it admit it, that is ;l11. ~··

February 11, 1977 Tape No. 220 NM - 2 MR. HTCK~fAN: situations arise, or if in the opinion of the officers on the snot that additional men are required to meet any circumstances in Newfoundland, the Rl.~fP do not have to come to me~nor do they. I can think of several cases in the last t~v o or three years, one not too far from my own district, where I •·Tas totally unaware of the fact that additional men had been moved in - MR. ~EARY: That is like locking the doors in Confederation Building when the minister's own constitutents are in. MR. ROBERTS: Is the minister's executive assistant 'mrkin~? }ffi.

HICKHA.."'{: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. gentleman from LaPoile-.but I did not ask that the additional men go in. \ ~- SPEA.T<ER: The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitare. Speaker, directed the MR. J. HINSOR: ~fr. my question is to ~ ~inister of Public ~rorks and Services and I refer to pa ge 100. of the Auditor General's Report. With reference to companies "a", nb" and ''en, can the minister tell the House if he kno~.;rs the na~es of the companies: Are· they well established, reliable companies, and not just some little outfit in the basement of a hous e or so~et~ing like this? ~ffi.

SPF. :\!~FR_ : The hon. 'finis ter of "Pub 1 i c ~ ·l orlc_ s rrnd Services. '~T" . • T?f')'L!SSEAlT: I v;ill take the question under anviseflc>nt. I gave the TTouse an undertakinr, yesterday. ~· [r, c:;peaker, that I would between todav and next Friday tah1e the comnlete replies to 1'o t h \c erya rtneo ts under "'" j urisd i e t1 nn in r••s "" e t t r t:w \ u 1 it oc r.eneral 's V..epnrt. I had the opnortunit y to do one t 11 is mo!:"nin-:>:. ' . ''.(l ~"'t'!!: : l." • • ~ : l, o • • 1 , \ •: • t 1 • ' ,- '• ! ~ ') ') ' ...... '

February 11, 1q77 Tape No • 220 NX - 3 MR • .J. HINSOR: Mr. Speaker, in view of the imnortance of this question,and the fact that these tltrce companies receiv0d somethin~ ~lil:e thirt y-nine ner cent of a total maintenance exoendjture, t-le would very much annreciatc a full report on that. ~fP.. ROUSSEAU: ~1r. Sneaker, 1 do not knoH if the han. l"'!ember is __.,.~pugning my integrity. I macle a cot!JIIlitmertt to the han. Fouse and I just suggested to the han. - AN RON. '~~mER : You are tender today. MR. ROUSSEAU: I em not sensitive at all. I just sn?,gested to ~he hon.

House that I ~muld bet~-reen today and next Friday give ~ a~omo lete report from both departments. I have done so in one instance because I had the opportunity this morning. I shall do so with the other one before next Friday. That commitment I Made and that commitment I intend to honour. Simnle. }1R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. __x ~. ROHE : - ~ Education. ~fr.

Sneaker, I have a question for the !· ~inister Sir, is the minister m,rare of the fact that an ' Order-in-Council was issued in October, 1975, 'vhich ordered that a nilot oroject be undertaken at a school involving the use of four extra buses at an additional cost of ~~~.000~ (. ') . ) I """' . ~

February 11, 1977 Tape 221 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Education. ~'"R. HO'(_TSE: ~r. Speaker, I think I ~m awnre of it. T thin~ it vRs ~ue~ in 1975. It Has tl1e four buses i.nvoJ vec1 in the p ilot project '~n HoL~ - Sp_j- rit School i n T.ong Pond, Hanuels_,I thin k .,and th i s Has to -- · -- ~ try to clear up sotl'le of the prob] el!'.s they were havin~ there. It r.·as a very dangerous situation on the roa.d and \-•e t-.'ere trying to use some student monitors on these buses ancl. we have to have more buses availah]e. SO'-'E RON. HF.:t-1BE'~'~: Hear, hear: HR. SPE.A.KEn..: A suppleTI'entary. }fl:'.

P.OHE: }{r. Speaker, a supplementary. Is the minister aware that the Department of Education acten v.>ithout authority in rrocessinr A these parti.cular r.rants for the particular sc'hoo] boarr" :in ouestion and that the school boards hac:l not subl!'.itted infonnation pert:i .nent to the transportation as reouirec by regulPtions? '~. SPEAKER : The han. ~Unister of Educ;=~tion. !fP. • HOtTS E : Vr. Speaker, there are a number of references to that particular thing in the Auditor Gene.ral Is report. It ~vas cone during the school year.

It ~vas urgent that ~v-e do it Cl.nd of course v.•e could not go through the proper channels and proper procedures. There are a number of cases Hhere school hoards have not suhmittec'l their detPilec'l routes that is supposed to accompany the applications and, of course, we have continued to pay until these C::tll'e in. The ftuditor General suggests that w~ not pay. But that is outsirle of the regulations but -.:·Te felt :it v.ras tf-.e honourahle th:ing to clo. ft supplell'entpry. I take it, ~r. Speaker, that nubJic -----\ tenrlers Here not caller! for this particular ?mount of hat correct? l'!'one;: .

Ts "''R, nnrrsE: ''r. Speaker, 1 <HI' not aF<lre of ~-·hetl,er puc]i~ ter.clers -\"·erP. ca]lecl 0r not. T think it ~··<ts nefotiatec Hith so'!'1e existinP' operators. >'P P () Wf': ---- - - - 1\ ~upple!"entarv, "'r. ~p cCJ Lcr. l. ') ! ) ~ ' I. .\ T1 I 1 c (' l\ 1 (: i ~ (.

February 11, 1977 Tape 221 IR-2 MT' • P.flWF. : also undertake to table the names of the companies or peop]e ~··hn in fact got this particular job for $60,000? T say that reaJizinr fuJI 't-!ell that it ~.ras a worthy project. ~T. HnTl~F.: Yes. r-'1'. SPFA..l(EP_: The han. I!'.etr.ber for LaP aile follm·red by the han. YT~e!l'ber for r.onception Bay South and the hon. member for Terra Nova. }'}'. 1-."EA FY: ~r.

Speaker, I would like to put a ouestion to the ~'in:f. ster of Mines and Energy. l.Youlcl the 1Ainister of ~~ines anc1 Energy inform the ~se if he has made any attempt to convene a TT'eet i n ~ of the oil companies to try and work tm-rards one pr i ce for gasoline and hea.t inp fuel right across this Province, North, South, East and ~.Jest, have a uniform price right across the tvhole IsJ and? }4Jt. SPEAKER: The hon. }!inister of ~'ines and Energy. ~- PECKFO'I'D: ~~r. Speaker, I ~v:flJ take that matter under arvjseMent Xnd reply in cletaH to the hon. member on "~-'onday or Tuesc1ay of nex t 't-Jeek. ~m.

NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied ldth the minister's an~nv er and I lvish to debate the matter during the Late Shm-r on Thursc .ay i coming. ~-rp. SPF..AKE'P: The hon. ~ember for Conception Bay South. ~- • NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the l-finister of Social 1 Services regardinp, I believe, a petition that I have been to]d PetS presented to the minister. some time ago - I do not know exactly hmv long ago - from the residents of Virginia Park concerninr. a number of problems they have &;Hn the~e with the he::ttj"nr: ancl so on. I atte'[T'ptec to contact the minister this rn~rning on this.

I rlid notify his secretary. And I ;:~m ~A•oncler1nr if he is in a position to pr0 v icle ;1'1" infor.'[T'ati~n on that sincP they have heen calling !l'e and others herP in the 1-.uilcHnr. /1 :-~ T1n':. 1 T~'f\FP: Tt i!' his rli~trict. ------ ~ - - "'-. ---

February 11, 1977 Tape 221 IB-3 ¥1? • 13P-ETT : Yes, it is his district. That is correct. It arrived at my des It on Febru~ry l1 ~,•hicl'> is seven davs ar.o. ':"he prayer of the petition is tlwt this department wou1d r-nmt an jncreac:: c jn the allol-•ance fo r bertt and J 5ght to a numher of people, T think it is somethinp like sixty, living i.n subsidized rental unHs in that area. All of the~e un:lts are electrically heatecl. The l etter froT"l the member fo-r the area points out the hardshjp, I suppose,be;fnB endured by soT'le of these people. In ans"(>rinp, your questi0n, C::ir, I Hould like to say, first of all I. ·> r I - • '

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 222 Page 1 - mw Mr. Brett. that we are extremely cognizant of the difficulty that people, who are dependent on social assistance, are experiencing during the Winter months, and always have, of course, and in spite of the fact that rates have increased considerably during the last four or five years, as a matter of fact the short-term rates have increased by over 100 per cent, and long term rates by almost fifty per cent.

And in spite of that these people are still not receiving enough, and I think if there is anything that both sides of this House agree on, it is the fact that these people are not getting enough. It is rather ironic though, Sir, that the Auditor General should rap my knuckles, because I am not taking enough money back from these very same people. It is impossible for any department to make policy for any one group of people in any part of the Province. Our policy naturally has to be for all the Province. MR. HURPHY: Except for Labrador. MR. BRETT: Well, yes, we do make an exception in Labrador. We do give - MR.

MURPHY: Ten per cent. "HR. BRETT: - ten per cent more, I think. But there is no allowance for fuel as such right now,or clothing. You know, it is all included in the cheque. And, as I said, Nr. Speaker, even though we have been able to increase the rates so much in the last few years, we are cognizant that it is still difficult. And we hope that we can continue to increase it as the years go oy if, of course, the financial conditions in the Province will allow it. But I cannot at this moment, government cannot, make an increase for any one group of people. HR. NOLl> .. ~: A supplementary.

A supplementary. •. r ') .. ' '-· I

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 222 Page 2 - mw MR. NOLAN: And I am just attempting through a supplementary, ~must admit, Mr. Speaker, to convey to the hon. minister the fact ~ \ that I called him this morning, but what I neglected to mention was that I also tried to contact the member in which whose district it is, because I think it is a matter of courtesy to do so, and I would want that clearly understood. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, still with the Auditor General's Report and still with a question in relationship to the consulting firm that is working for the Buchans Task Force and in relation to the fact that the question answered by the minister - again where they had been awarded a tender for $20,000 and had submitted a bill indeed for $37,000 and were Faid $37,000- the minister in the answer to the question stated that an informed opinion, after appraisal of the job being done by the consulting firm advised that this be paid.

Now I am wondering if the minister is in a position to tell us \>1hose infor~opinion it was that would allo w a contractor who ~reed to $20,000 to put in a price of $37,UOO? Whose i n f ormed opinion was it? ~ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU~ Mr. Speaker, first of all, the consultant was toid by the Task Force that he might proceed from $20,000 to $37,000. It was not done without approval by the Task Force that the cost went from $20,000 to $37,000. He just did not go and do the extra work and build an extra $17,000 .

He was given approval by the Technical Sub-Committee~and in turn ratified by the Task Force,that he ·could proceed to an amount of $37,000 for the job.

The technical advice and knm.;ledge.:1ble people referred to in the statement refers to those engineering people ~10 were associated with the Buchans Task Force, some of whom \.;ere of ficia"!s of the various de partments who particLpated in the Buchans Task Force, but :1e did nut so fro :c1 .~~IJ,O')n to $37,000, the consultant.on his own. ae was given approval by tile 'L.ls~.;. force, ,,·itllOut approv.J.l from the dcpartr1c::t or frora ti1c Ir0asury Goard, :,.£-u,OQ(, would not cover the full ~ ;c-ape of tiw stuJy. ,. ') . \1 .:.. "

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 22l. Page 3 - mw MR. LUSH: A supplementary. ~ SPEAKER: A supplementary. :rn. . LUSH : The Auditor General also says he.re that with respect to the consulting firm that two of the terms of the agreement were; -{- (1) that no work to be performed or e~penses incurred for which payment would be requested in eKcess of the total amount of $20,000 without the prior approval of the minister r I think the minister said that they got the approval of the Task Force. How come they were allowed to go this direction? It says here, '~ithout the approval of the minister." f., . ) ll I .~ , I

February 11, 1977 Tape 223 I B-1 ~R. SPEAKF.'P: The hon. ~Unister . lfT?. T?OU~SEJ\lT: 'T'he hon. member is reading correctly ~1hat hA.ppenecl. I think it is e1l1 right there, that the Task Force proceec'!e(1 ~d thout ~approval frol'l the department, from the Minister, frol'l 'T'reasury Tioarrl or from any official. Such action~! can assure han. rrembers, ~.dll not happen again. The mistake has been brought to the attention of the people involved.

And the obvious concurrence prior to increasing that amount from S20,000 to $37,000 should have been ac~uirecl frorr the department and the ~~inister and Treasury Board~but it ~rHs not. ~w. SPEAKEP: The bon. member for Stephenville. M~G ~. Y.CNF.IL: r-~r. Speaker, a ouest ion to the hon. ~finister of recreation and P.ehabilitation. Could the minister tell the House if the governnent intends to introduce legislation that will restrict t he bre"•'n g companies from using their com.pany name in sponsoring sporting events or supporting teams? "''R.

SPEAKER: The hon. 'f'~inister of recreation and Rehabilitation. '!vfJ'. COLLINS: ~r. Speaker, that question involves a very ~etaileci issue l-Jhi.ch is being discussed, has been for some tiMe in fact, ~rith ........._\ the federal \ to give any Hinister of Health. I am not in a position at this tiT!'e definitive response to the hon. roeJI'lber. nut H is a very important question and hopefully can 1:-oe ammerecl in due time. ! "R • r-rr,NE IL : A supplementary. '~~'R. SPEAKE~: A suppler."~entary.

VR. !.fOJ'F.IL: If the zovernl'lent intenrls to restrict the bre~'ing companies from the sponsorship of sportinp- and team events,~·'ill the p;overnment make additional fundin~ in the event that the bre~·~in": coMpanies totally \''i.thrlrar.Y from sponsorshjps? som: EO:~. ~·n::rm:rrs : Oh. oh! ~. SPEAKEP: The hon. ~roher for fogo. rAPT. ~· 1 T~;snr: Hr. Speaker, C1 quest ion to the hon. "in is ter of Fisheries,<1?C1in ,'>. risinf~ out 0f the Au,litor CcnPr:11 's report, (, ., n ' . '

February 11, 1977 Tape 223 IB-2 CAPT. HINSOR: to receive bounties at all; can the m:in:ister give us an account of why those overpayments were ~acle? ~P.. SPEAKEP: The han. ~·inister of Fisheries. P~. Speaker, I will h~ve to take that as notice. The answer I am sure :i.s available. I cannot just talk out of my memory right now. I do not have a list in front of Tie of a]l the answers.

But like I said a moment ago, that all of the references to the Department of Fisheries in the Auditor Ceneral 's report have been responded to by the officials of my department, are now in the possession of the Auditor General,and I am sure can be scrutinized by the hon. member ~.;hen it appears before the Public Accounts r.o~l'd . ttee. But meanl-'hile I will endeavour to get that answ·er on "onday for him. }{F. SPEAY...EP.: A suppletl'entary. CAPT.

WINSOR: l.Jould the minister undertake to inform the House ~hen he !'lakes that s~~tl'ission l-.'h_e_t_h_e_.r_ o_r_n_n_t_ a_n_Y __ e_f_f_o_r_t_ "Y_rl_. _J_l _b_e __ _ made to collect these overpayments? . J.-fF .• SPEAKEP.: The hon. Vinister of Fisheries. r-m. P. CAPTEP: Mr. Speaker, I ~·r:ill go further. !"'aybe on r·on~ay I l-'Ould be able to table for the infonnatjon of my colleapues opposite, 11and the House,ans,ers to all of the questions raised in the Audltor General's report w:ith respect to the Depart~ent of Fisher:ies. MR.

SPEAKEP: The hon. tnetl'ber for Carbonear followed by the hon. me!'lber for Conception Bay South and the hon. lT'ernber fr"r Lc>Poi1P. ''R. 'P.. V('Qh'ES : A questi.on for the hon. ~~inister of Social Services "rith repard to the joh creAtion propraTT1!1'e f0r th;:~t i1epart1:1ent. Hou]d ~the !'linister he preperer1 to lay on the table of this T1nuse the exact \ dterion other tlm.n the ah]e-bodier1 <1ssistance c1~i"1tmts that determinec Hhere thC' pro _iects m:~re loc<!tC'r1? The hon. Hjn:fster of SociAl Services. PT'. T'. ~'()0Pf~: II J I

FebTuary 11, 1977 Tape ?.23 IR-3 !"R • SP!':AY.:E'P. : The hon. lflember for r.onception Bay South. I presume the hon. minister has not ansl;;rered;t;;rhich he is not re .~ujre~ to, and I the-ref ("'re call uron the ~entJ ema.n ... rhom - A point of order, ~r. Spea ke r . I not i ce d the ministe r getting up ,,hen you - "~ . SP~.AYJ:r: Order, pJ ease! he intend to answer. YP .• RP.ETT: I was. .hen 1 ·r.dlJ ~sk the hon. minister f. id YP. .• SPEflKE'P: The hon. ~'inister of Social Services. !-"!?. Bl'ET'J': I do not suspect, ~. Speaker, that i t will take ttelve months. I do not see ~my it should.

There are f:f.ve special projects ann they to.•ere the ones in consultatjon t·rith various people in' couunj ttees throu ghout the Province t;.Tho c<~rne up ,.;i.th these '!rogr ammes. I 1Jould assu !!le that they could p.et the information l·rithin a fe ;;r days, probably so!T'e time next ''ee k . '1) SPEA.."ZF.!' : The hon. member for Conception Bay South~foJJo~ed by the hon. gentleman for LaPoile.

February 11, 1977, Tape 224, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A question for the hon. the Minister of Finance, and I believe still President of the Treasury Board, -\ and it is in refer_E! ~~ -t ~ what authority, if any, would the ~uditor Gneeral have in examining the accounts at Memorial University~ For example, you see great scrutiny of the various departments of government. Why for example, would you not have Memorial University audited and presented in this way by the Auditor General?

If the legislation is not there, authority to give the Auditor General such authority, has the minister and his staff considered giving it to him! HR. WHITE: And all Crown corporations. MR. NOLAN: And all Crown corporations,for that matter MR. DOODY: Yes, the first point is well taken. The university is not a Crown corporation ,itis a private institution which receives annual grants from government.

Granted these grants make up a large portion of their budget. _\In fact, the Auditor General does indeed audit the books of the Memorial University a~d I would be only too happy, if it is the wish of the House, to table the last financial report the Auditor General has done for the university. I can assure you that it is not done in the detail that this is done. MR. NOLAN: That is what I am after. MR. DOODY: The university has a way of doin~ things which is not quite the same as the ones that you and I are used to in this bon.

House , but nevertheless the Auditor r~neral does do an audit every year on Memorial University's accounts and I woul d be only too happy to tahle them here if it is the wish of the HousP.. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary. "fR. SPEAKER: A supplementarv. MR. NOLAN: I am sure the minfstPr realiz~s wltat I am after. - L ~~ 'l 'l ' ., ,, I I

February 11, 1977, Tape 224, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: MR. NOLAN: the government, ~orks or anyone \ Yes. - and that is that if a minister of the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Public else,is ex~osed to this kind of scrutiny, why is it that in our wisdom we have decided to eliminate such scrutiny by the Auditor General of Memorial University~ You can call it a private institutiuon paid for out of public money or any of the other Crown corporations, and would the minister consider this being done in the future and if not, ~-1hy not? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: The minister is quite willing to ~nsider it and has considered it and is quite happy to consider it. I think, personally, that it might be a very useful exercise. I feel reasonably certain that you ~·rould run into a considerable amount of opposition from the university and the people who would would run the opposition. As some people have said, "So what?" Well, that is something that has to be weighed as it goes along. I personally have no bias against an indepth analysis or criticism of the Auditor General's looking at the university.

As a matter of fact, it might be a very useful exercise from an accounting point of view. What it would do with th~ academic freedom that the university has enjoyed over the years~ and ~.;hich I think is part of the history of universities generally~ is another matter, and one which I do not feet competent to comment on. My only real close association with the university has be~n to watc, a basketball game once or tv!ice, so the academic freedom thing is something that I am not all that familiar with. Rut then the accounting bit, I am completely in agreement. ~TR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Memher for LaPoile. '-~.NEARY: Hr. SneRl~er. , I should like to ask ~:._- ·'-~i.nis :er of Justir:e, Sir. if he \-JOnlcl tell us '"ith referencE' to t) 1 (' ;\ud i tor r.Pnrra l 's Report nn p.'l."'.f' '~, :1s .1 rf'sul t of SE:'V('Till

r February 11, 1977, Tape 22", Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: fraud and misappropriations -------------------------investigations several staff were involved in providing accounting and consulting services for the Department of Justice, would the minister tell the House how many cases of fraud,and how many cases of misappropriation~hmv many scandals are under investigation at the present time? MR. HICKMAN: I have not the foggiest idea, Mr. Speaker, nor should I MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister then give us a progress report on the fisheries scandal? .- How is that coming?

Only,two charges have been laid so far, when will other charges be laid? It is awfully slow progress,is it not? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. ~peaker, and I said this very deliberately and very seriously, the hon. gentleman from LaPoile knm.Ys this as well as I do, that it would be absolutely unthinkable, unforgivable, and I am sure Your Honour ~vould not permit me, to comment on any matters that are before the courts, nor, indeed, should one comment, in my opinion, on investigations that are ongoing. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: I shall allrnv one supnlementarv. MR. NEARY: Can the minister tell the House if that is the only case of fraud and misappropriation of funds that ~s being investigated, the fishery one? Are there others besides this? If so, would the ministe~, as mini~ter of the department, must knmv what other fr11uds and misapprorriations of funds are being investigated, f .• , r· ' . l .l

February 11,1977 Tape 225 Afl-1 MR. NEARY: Is that the only one'l Is there any in connection with the Linerhoard mill under investigation~ or the logr,inij operations in Happy Valley and Goose Bay? There must be, the minister must have that information • !1R.. HeRPHY: . Some dirt on the go. HR. NEARY: There is. }!R. SPF.AKE'R.: The hon. minister. HR. HICI0fAN: I cannot, and I should not,and I will not identify investigations that are unf!oinr:, because one noes not knoH what may result from sue~ investigations.

And I am not going to be placed in a position ~•here I can ever be accuserl, by a statement in thj_s hon. Pouse.,prejudicing the tria1 or the fair trial of a person ~•ho may subseauently he charged. It is something that is ju~t, you k.nmv, not acceptable to any court where we have the British system of justice. I will direct the attention of the hon. gentleman to the fact that there Here t\·lO or three investigations that have been nublic knowledge by virtue of the fact that there l.rere statements made in this House at the time they were initiated in connection with one, two or three vocational schools. 1 fR.

SPEAKER : Time for one further question. Han. memher for Trinity-Bay De Verde. MR. ROHE: I have a qttestion for the ~finister of Education, Sir. In vie\V' of the fact, ~ir, that on December 3,1(175, a navment of $1,800 for services providedwas oaid to a public relations fi~ Hith respect to school taxation, Should the minister indicate Fhether public tenders were callerl for this~ and if not ~,,l-tv not. <1nd 'v~nt was the name of the public rPlations firm or firms? :'!R. SPL'\KER: The hon. r ·Lster. x~-- _l_In_l_~S_E_:._:_ "fr.

Sreaker, this ,,,as a- T do not knm,• the TI<1 :1t: of the ' ~~rm,number one: it was a firm rlone to do sofT'e consul tinp: ~mrk for school 1'o.1.rds rcnllv, fnr th0 sc!wnl t:n: .111th<"'riti0s • . .-~~icr: :<r<' 0r

February 11,1977 Tape 225 AH- ?. HR. HOUSE: indirectly it should come from that vote. Of course He recognized it was not a nroper thinr to do <tnrl it is against thP. Ja,·r? l·~ell I do not vnow, it is indirect service to school boards 1 because the school tax authorities are createn by the government on behalf of school boards. ~rR. SPEAKER: Time is up. ORDERS OF TFE DAY HR. SPEAKER: Hotion 1. Motion, the hon. the f~inister of Justice to introduce a hill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt T,.;o Indentures Of ':'.1ortgage Relating To .'1.

Hill At Hawke's Bay, And To 'Hake Provision Respecting ~· ratters Connected Therewith," carried. (BillNo. 12). On motion, Bill No. 12 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrm·7. HR. ~PEAKER: Motion 2. Motion, the hon. the 1'-finister of Justice to 'introduce a bill, "An Act to Amend 'fhe Evidence (Nechanical Recording) Act," carried. (Bill ~o.lS). On motion, Bill ~o. 15 read a first tiMe, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. :HR. SPEAKER: ~fotion 3.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a hill, "An Act 'fo Amend The Chairman 8f The Board Of Comr.:issioners Of T'uhlic Ptilities (Pension) ,\ct, 1074.' - carrieci. ( ~ i 11 ~i 0 • l 7) On ~ntinn. Rill. •:n. ~ +

Fehruary 11,1CJ77 Tape 225 An-3 HR. SPEAKER: Motion 4. trot ion, the hon. the> ~Unis ter of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department (lf Edu cation Act," carried. (Bill No.13) On motion, Bill No. 13 rea.d a first t'irne, ordered read a second time on tomorrm.,. ~1R • SPEAKF.R : Motion 5. Hot ion, the hon. the ~fini ster of F.ducatioh to introduce a bill, "An Act P.especting The Establishment .And Operation Of The Polytechni ca l Institute ef Je~· •foundland" , carried. (Bill No.l4) On motion, 'Bill No. 14 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrmv . MR. SPEAKF.R: . otion f).

Hotion, the han. the ~1ini ster Of Consumer L\ffairs . And Enviromnent Introduces ~ bill, nAn Act ala Amend The Landlord And Tenant (Fesidential Te nancies) ct ", carried. (Bill \o .l!S) 16 read a first time, order ed read a second time em toMorroH.

February 11, 1977 Tape No. 22fi NM- 1 ~. SPEAKER: on the Address in Reply. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to move a sub-amen<i"llent, Mr. Speaker, to the amendment to the Address in Reply, ~oved by the Leader of the Opposition, seconded by the member for Fogo. '-':y sub-amendment, Mr. Speaker, reads as folloT,rs: an? the Eouse rep,rets that 'Hhich hath been done hath ----been dcne poorly and that \vhich hath no:;tt::--,h::;;e~e2i1fil'r""dr+onnu-ae4ftft. .... th brought sorrow to every corner of this land. HR.

HICKi'fAN: On that rnotion,two thinr,s; may 1 draw to the attention of the Chair firstly \vhich is a technical one, I did not see an indication from the hon. member for Fogo (Cant. Winsor) t that he \•Tas seconding the amendment. And secondly in my on inion this is not a sub-amendment that is acceptable to the Chair or goes to the root of the motion that is presently before the Chair, and I would c-sk for Your 'Honour to nile upon it b efore He e."!lbar~( upon ~ebate thereof. HR. SPEAKER: I believe the han. member for Fogo was prohably going to clarify the first point made in the han. gentleman's point of order.

PI?~SOR: ~lr. Speal~er, on that point of order, it \vas iust hecc:mse ------ we rlicl not catch eye to eye. "fll. S'Pf.M'ER : Correct. 'T'hat is the reason. T \vtls 1.-,f'.:ulin.>; ir. th<tt dirf'ction. T understand the ~on. ~ent1Pman has seconded it, ~so that ~.:ttter in the noint of 0rdcr is disnos0cl of. Is thf'rc to ~1·.· t~1c hem. Gov0rnmcnt House Le;J.dcr? '·~lich is'! \fi> Pf) l' l' P'f''' • \ • • ' I' ' • ' • - ··-- ... · - - ··· - · li :~ q

February 11, 1977 Tnne No. 226 NM- 2 MR. ROP.ERTS: it was on the microphones. Rut I think I h~ve the gi~t of his nnint. My submission is that the suh-amendment is in order. There is no reason '"hY it vJOuld he out of order. It proposes to add-I have it here in front of me somewhere, unless somebody has taken it- to add soMe ~·!ords to the amendment 1-vhich is before the Eouse nm-1. The langua?,e Ti1aY not he every day languar,e but it is perfectly acceptable language I submit in every sense of the word.

And in fact, Sir, I could find a precedent, there was an amendment to the Throne Speech moved t~..ro or three years ago by my colleague at that time, still very much my friend, the then member for Labrador North~ Mr. Mel Woodward, which had similar langua~e. I believe the '"ording v7as, "this House re~rets the Government 1-tas not done those things which t!'ley ought to have done and has cl.one those things 'Vlhich they ou~ht not to rave done." Anti Your Honour Is predecessor in the Chair accented that, the amendment Has debated and in due course ~ut to the vote.

I think the sub-arnendr1ent j_ ~ nerfectlv in order, ~ir, and I Hould sug~est that the g-entleman from LaPoile (Nr. ~eary) be allo'::ei to nroceed Hith his remarks in resnect of it. ! ~ssu111e h~ is in favour of it. 1-.m.. ~PFAKF.R: Do I understand then there is no further argument? There is. The hon. me"1her for St. John's ~Jort"h. v.r.

Sneaker, in my on inion that sub-maendment is more nronerly another amendment. 1t neither nodifies nor exnancls the existinr amendment nncl. t;H?rcfore \·lhi1C' T clo n0t deny the hon. merr.her 's rip.-ht to move <:~nv anencl.nent t1w t h0 ~.,j s'-lcs to, I su~~est that this is not n ~roncr suh-a~en~~~nt. !lear: llear! ~ I i t 0

r February 11, 1977 Tape 227 PK - 1 NR. SPEAKER: Having heard all bon. members who wish to make a submission on the sub-amendment, one matter is clarifed and that is sub-amendment was in fact duly seconded. Obviously a amendment to an amendment. And,in general, the rules covering amendments cover this specific kind of an amendment as well. There is very little in the authorities on sub-amendments as such. There is very little. One reference is in Beauchesne, page 169,

Section 202, subsection (3), 11 Since the purpose of a sub-amendment is to alter the amendment,it should not enlarge upon the scope of the amendment • - MR. ROBERTS: It would be hard to enlarge upon the scope of the amendment I put down. MR. SPEAKER: - and it should deal with matters which are not covered by the amendment. Now certainly this sub-amendment, in my opinion, fulfills those criteria. It does not enlarge upon the scope, it deals with something which is not covered in the amendment, because the hon. gentleman is putting forward the opin1on of regret etc.: there is no need to read it out again.

And in the argument which I have heard, I have only heard, well I have heard two submissions arguing against it, Now the point made by the bon. member gentleman from St. John's North (~1r. J. Carter), that in his opinion it ~.;rill be appropriately an amendment, I think, it could be moved as an amendment, but that does not mean it could not be moved in this manner. I am not aware of any authorities c111oted to me by the hon. Government House Leader in arguing against it. In my opinion, it meets the rules of relevancy.

It does not enlarge upon the scope of the amendment, but it does deal with n matter not covered by the amendment. In my opinion, therefore it is in order. SO:VIE llO;.i. rlE:!EEI\S : llear, hear! ~R . SPFAKfR: \oro (C;1pt. \.'ins. It is moved,and seconded by the hon. member fr0rn bef'n done h~l th been done roorl y and that \Jh i <' ' : :1;1 th not been ,1 t'lll' .. •~ ..

February ~~' 1977 Tape 227 PK - 2 -\ - Speaker, I want to thauk my hon. colleague, the membt!r for Fogo, R. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. And first of all, Mr. for a8reeing to second my sub-amendment. And I want to thank the Leader of the Opposition for his co-operation in this matter. Hr. Speaker, you may not find this quote in Scripture but it should be there. AN RON. l1El1BER: It probably will be after - MR. NEARY: The Scripture according to St.

Stephen, "And the House regrets that \>Thich hath been done hath been done poorly and that which hath not been done hath brought sorrow to every corner of this land." AN RON. MEI-1BER: The last St. Stephen ~vas stoned. Has he not.? MR. NEARY: St. Stephen was the first marytr. That is right. He was stoned to death. Hr.

Speaker, when the House rose yesterday ,Sir, I was lashing into the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation for his negligence, for his ignoring, for his turning a blind eye to the fact that there are no smoke detector system at the Hoyles Home, there is no sprinkler system at Hayles Home, there are not adequate ramps at the Hayles Home. And I am not saying this to try to alarm people, Sir, these are facts. AN liON. HEHBER: lfuo is the miniEter responsible. MR. NEARY: The Hinister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. AN liON. NEHBER: (Inaud:!.ble) HR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? A..~ liON. HEr!BER: (Inaudible) ~.

NEARY: Hr. Speaker, they do not have adequate ramps to move 250 pcop!e at short notice, in case of an emergency. There are presently ~50 patients at Iloyles tiomc~most of 'i.Jhora are bcdridJcn,.:md if they arc not bedridden tlwv are the er.uiv;llcnt of hcdridck•n p.-1t::.c11t:.;.

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 228 Pafe 1 - mw Mr. Neary. the minister has refused so far to recognize the plight of the people who live, not only in government homes, Sir, but in apartments and homes that are operated in the private sectors. You know, Mr. Speaker, when this tragedy occurred at the Goulds, Sir, it affected every man, woman and child in this Province, especially the senior citizens, the older people. I know my mother was deeply shocked and moved over this tragedy at the Goulds. And I talked to a lot of other people around her age, they all felt it, Sir.

And they all became suddenly very conscious of the fact that the same thing could happen to them 1 HBut for the Grace of God there go I! 1 And even though, Hr. Speaker, the government have decided to appoint a Commission of Enquiry to look into the private boarding homes, the terms of reference do not include homes such as the Hayles Home. A.."J HON. }!EMBER: Yes, it does. MR.

NEARY: No, Sir, it does not .• The terms of reference do not include apartment buildings like Kenny's Court apartments, like George's Court apartments, where you have large numbers of sen~or citizens congregated in one area, and these people are very concerned. They do not, }1r. Speaker, have the security going around twenty-four hours punching the clock. They may have it at Hayles Home. They may. I am not quite sure. They do not have it in the other apartment buildings that are operated by private industry, in the private sector. And these people, Hr. Speaker, are very, very concerned.

And I was going to suggest to the minister yesterday afternoon,before I wound up my remarks, that the minister should take a good, hard look at homes and apartments in the private sector. Mr. Speaker, if the City Council sees fit to put the boots to the Canadian National Hotel, the Hotel Newfoundland, in a year .._.hen hotels and r:1.otels are going to be blocked to tiw doors, -.;ben ti!..:re is goin g to be tremendous pressure on the hospit.J.lit y Lndustry bec.:1use of till'

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 228 Page 2 - mw Mr. Neary. Canada Summer Games which they themselves sponsored, if they see fit, Sir, to put the boots to the Hotel Newfoundland - and I could only assume, Mr. Speaker, that there is no ulterior motive behind it, that they are genuine and sincere, although they themselves have ignored the fact that Hayles Home does not have a smoke detection system or smoke sensors as they are claiming should be in Hotel Newfoundland. Why are they ignoring the Hayles Home and why are they socking it to Hotel Newfoundland? I hope it is ~ot a vendetta of some kind. I hope it is not, Mr.

Speaker, because they have do\vn on the City Council supporters and employees of the gentleman who did not get the CN Hotel down on Water Street. I hope that this not the reason behind it. I hope that they are quite sincere and not just trving to get revenge against CN, which I am told,by the way, Hr. Speaker , I am told by the highest authority in this land, as far as fire prevention is concerned that Rotel Newfoundland is the safest building in this Province. MR. HICKMAN: Who is that? - Ah, the Hinister of Justice is over there. I can see the 'tvheels turning.

The gentleman made the statement publicly, and I called him and said, "Is this tr;..4e? Is it true what you are saying?" I heard the gentleman being quoted on radio. Yes, the gentleman said, it was the safest building,in his opinion, in this Province. And yet the City Council, whether they are trying to get a bit of publicity for themselves, I do not know,- maybe they ar~ genuine and sincere. Let us give them the oenefit of the doubt. But let us also draw to their attention that what they are trying to do with Hotel ~ewfoundland, force them .. , , I I ·t

February 11, 1977 Tape 229 IB-1 r-fR. NEARY : to put in a s~oke detection system, and while they are waitinp for that to get i.t pl annecl and get the engineering t-mrk done and so forth, they are tryinr, to force them into puttinr; t~·7 0 security off'icers punddnJ! a clock tvYenty-four hours, when a.t the saTI"e tiMe, 't'fr. Speaker, that same crov1d down at City Hall are ignoring Georges Court Apartments, Kennys Court Aparttr'ents and ~oyles Ho':'.e Fhere you h;:~ve senior citizens. ~~ost of them have to rlepend on some body else to move them. They are ip.noring that prohlen. Fhy?

That is what I ~ ,Tould like to kno"t-~. PerhRps the }finister of Pehabilitation and Pecreation coulc'l !T'ake a fev comments on this matter ,,rhen he speaks in this debate. It is a pretty serious matter, Sir. And I bave harl,and other rnetnbers of this House have had,representation from resicents of these apartment buililin~s anil frotn institutions that are operated by the governnent anil from private boarding homes. '!'he boarcH_n~ ho'!Tles are all right, they are going to be taken care of under the enquiry.

Well, Sir, I submit to the l\'inister of Rehabilitation and Recreation that it Hould be criminal, Sir, on our part .as elected representatives of the peo~Je we shouJd hang our heans in shame if ever another tra~eny occurs in this Province. uy Go(! we must learn our 1esson from ~.;hat happened on Boxing Day cmm at the Goulds. It is a pretty harsh lesson to Jearn. If ~.,e ro not Jearn a lesson frotn that, w·e ~d.ll never Jearn H.

So, Sir, I call upon the Vjnister of Pehahilitati0n ~nd Recreation to act 'dthout further reJ .ay on !l'Y Suf!r.esUcm that al J these hotnes and apart!l'ents - it noes not make any difference whether thev are o~erate~ 1~y the zovernment or in the private sector - take a gooil hard Jo0k anci talk to some of the people ~nd see ho~ concerneci they are. In some of these apartments, ~·r. Speal-"er, thilt are operr1ten in the pr:iv:lte sector there are people there nou, t\·JO senior citizens 1 ivin~ t0~ether

February 11, 1977 Tape 229 ~"R • NEll RY : tv•enty-four hour supervi~don :f_n these apartments. It should not be allowed. IB-2 If the minister has to hr:fng in ne~..r regulations and anend the act, then I think he should do it at once. ~r. Speaker, yesterday too I marle reference to the parliamentary ecumenical movement that t-ras taking place in this Province. I nid not mel'!n to hurt anybody's feelings, Sir. I think there are some wierd and ~vonderful thin~s going on. I am as much concerned about the financial conditioP of this Province as anyrorlv else.

I for one clo not ~vant to see the Province c1eclare bankruptcy or the t'ini ster of Finance go to the bond rn11rket and c:liscover rather suddenly, to be brought up stancUnp, 'by his friends ~""oorly's ~oPn in New York. HR.. LUSH: !-.roo ely and noocly. 1-'P .• l\TEAPY: ~.roody and Doody, sounds like - r!ihn.t is that teaT!' the\• used to 1,ave in - 1-IR. NOLAN: Powc:ly DoC'dy. MR. NEAP.Y: No, not Hovu'ly T1oocly. I forget no'v what it '"as. They usecl to have it in the C'aiety Theatre. \,That 'tvas it? ~rP, • DOODY : 1:fP,. NEARY: and Doody. Gallagher and Sheehan. Ca] lagher and Sheehan, that is it.

Nmv ".lYe have ~'oody I do not ~vant to see the poor old Hinister of Finance sometfme "t<.Then he is dmvn in New York beinp, winec'l anrl dined by the biz financiers in the nnited States' nm·m South of the bC'rder' tC'I c:f SC0'1;('1'" that 't,•e cannot horrmv any money. to this hon. !louse that before 't·.•e But I am the first, Sir, to sugrest start socking it to the or~inarv peop1e of this Province, the poor olc-1 taxpayers ~no are overburnenec~ alrea~y. hefore we start soc~inr it to the taxpayers, savare cuth~c~s and s"vare restraints, sAcrifices, increase in taxes, that the rrvernmer t itself start T":tkinp; a few sacrifices, shm,T the ex::~I"p1e, lenr. the ~ -.'nv.

Here 1~ t-.rh!lt T ~CI n0t un?erst:mc!, t·Jhv thRt ~ . -..,_~ 1 eft C'lut. T nr~ ;oll for

.. February 11, 1977 Tape no. 230 Page 1 - mw Hr. Neary. doing anything to keep this Province afloat, to save the Province from bankruptcy. But, Hr. Speaker, when you look at the Auditor General's report, and you see all the examples of extravagance and waste, and you see the entertainment here in the Premier's office, $10,000; ministerial entertainment, $7,400; reception after reception, dinners and banquets. I do not begrude poor old Aubrey Hac, you knm.;, a reception to say good-bye to him - I sent him a wire when he retired - $1,800. And you can go all the way down the line.

Dinners for this one, receptions for that one, cocktail reception for So-and-So, dinner in honour of So-and-So, dinners, receptions, state banquets. The total, Mr. Speaker, is $162,000. I would suggest that it be wiped out. No more dinners, no more receptions, no more banquets. You know, ttr. Speaker, if we are going to have restraint and cutbacks and savage taxes, then the government itself has to bite the lead bullet, and not just come on and sock it to the overburdened taxpayer. Cut it all out! 1:-fR. DOODY: A reception in honour of the Irish Christian Brothers. MR.

NEARY: I am sure the Irish Chritian Brothers would not mind one bit if they did not have a big state banquet with cigars being passed out, wined and dined. I am sure, Sir, that is not their calling at all. I am sure they would be just as glad if you did not have bread - give them cake. MR. DOODY: If I remember, they had a bit of cake too. }fR. NEARY: Did they? But, Mr. Speaker, this is all unnecessary spending, extravagance and waste. Hr.

Speaker, if the governmer..t are sincere and if ti1e hon. gentL::J12n on my side of the House are genuine and sincere, ti1en I say to them, let us show the people by precept and example that \ve are, t .1:1;: ti1e government are prepared to make sacrifices. Tite government are prep3rc .l to show the i'Cople of this Province th~t they arc satisfieJ t0 ~'ive- up traipsing around the \.JOrld on \•:ilJ [~Oose ch;l S L' S, living in t h L' bl' st. of .... . ·. (j 'l 'i

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 230 Page 2 - mw Mr. Neary. happening. This is all nonsense. Well I can give the hon. gentleman an example, I think, if I can find it here in my files, Sir. The hon. gentleman might be interested in kno11ling that New Year's Eve, 1976, Newfoundlanders were treated to a report of a press conference held by the hon. Premier."Premier painted in warm colours the trips taken by his ministers to various parts of the world in a valiant effort - so he said - to try and attract business and industry into this Province. The hon. Joe Rousseau travelled to Iceland. The hon.

John Lundrigan traipsed about Finland. Fisheries Minister Carter soc'ialized in Norway." And, Mr. Speaker, as any good leader would do, the hon. Premier joined in the fun, joined his footloose and fancy-free ministers by linking up 'tTith, them, rendezvousing with the ministers i n t he eve r popula r D enmar k . Somehm·7 or ot her, Si r, they a ll . <~nap.ed to someho\o~ or ot he r g et to Denmar k , a lthough t hey \.:ere off i n different di r ections. The hon. J oe Rouss eau, s o t he Pr emie r t old us, ( ' ! (' I 't t"'l

February 11, 1977 Tape 231 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: apart from going to Iceland 's Hot Springs, Mr. Speaker, was scheduled to go to Scotland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark. NR. DOODY: They have all returned, I think. HR. NEARY: So we are told he was supposed to be concentrating his attention on sheep. Well the only sheep, Sir, were the members of this llouse,and the people of this Province for putting up \vith that kind of nonsense. And Mr. Lundrigan so the Premier told us, he was supposed to go to Finland, Non.ray, Sweden, and listen to this, Denmark again, and the United Kingdom.

Somehow or other - AN HON. }lEHBER: Who is that sheep y0u are referring toZ MR. NEARY: The Hinister of - HR. LUSH: Manpower. MR. NEARY: No, no, Hr. Speaker, the han. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development was purportedly off looking at - HR. LUNDRIGAN: The tugboats. HR. NEP..RY: No, no, not the tugboats, the bakeapples. Bakeapples, cloudLerries, I think they are called. HR. ROBERTS: Cloudberry wine. HR. NEARY: Cloudberry and blueberries.

And we are "ror:dering \vhat happened to the big blueberry industry that the minister told us about in the last session of the House' And, of course, my old buddy, the Minister of Fisheries he \vas out socializing in Norway, the ever popular Denmark, Germany, Spain, Portugal and the United Kingdom. NR. \v. CARTER: The results are coming back though are they not? NR. NEARY: No, Sir. NR. LUSH: What is in Denmark? ~!R. NEARY: I do not kno\v '\..;::at is in Denmark - \vcll I know \~tat is in Denmark I was there once myself. :'i"mJ, ~!r.

Spc..:tker, I claim that during this session of the House that the people of :kwfoundland .:1rc cntitleJ to <1 full report of t:1e costs of these trirs, and what Has accomrJ ishL'd liurinr; this l'rovince. Tam sure, Sir, l:L~~l~llilo\ver Wl>uld h:tVL' hl'l'!t pr<.lud if he

February 11, 1977 Mr. Neary: Tape 231 PK - 2 had been over there. He probably would have thought that it was another landing in Normandy to see so many Newfoundland Cabinet ministers and the Premier landing on European soil. And if they cannot come up, Hr.

Speaker, if they cannot come up with a satisfactory explanation for their trip that in future in order to shov. the people of this Province that this hen. crowd are genuine when they talk about retrenchment and cutback that the hen. the Premier would put a leash on his Cabinet ministers in the future and not allaH them to go traipsing around the world, and force them, Mr. Speaker, force them to stay in their offices, here in St. John's~and do by letter with a twenty cent stamp, what you could do by going off on these e~pensive jauP.ts.There was nothing, Mr.

Speaker, that we have seen,no evidence of any results at all except that it provided a vacation, it provided a vacation for these hon. gentlemen at a time of the year when the weather ~v-as very poor in this Province, in February, just about,I would say it ~-1as sbout this time of the year 1 believe they went. MR. H. CARTER: ~fR. NEARY: We were not swimning nights then either. And, Hr. Speaker, on the anniversary of the invasion of Europe, the 1976 version, on the anniversary, I think, that the ministers and the the Premier owe an explanation to the people of this Province.

And they should give an accounting of these trips because, Sir, the box score so far shov7S very little success, in fact, it shovJS no success at all, except that the :-tinister of Fisheries just reminded me, "Oh"he says, '\1hat about the?-j oint ventures. I presume the minister is talking about. k~ EO~ . i'!D!BER ;· Oh, oh! 'm. :.IF.ARY: Ne. \'l'ell \vhat was the minister reminding me of; "~-.'hat about 1)est Gemany·,''I think, I heard the minister say. Hhat about \\'est Germany? Phat about it?

He ,,·ere led to hcl ieve, Sir, th.:1t h"hcn the :1drc1inistration, Hhcn onc-ouctrtcr of the C.'1hinet HPre over in Europ.: th:1t they IVcre p:oing to uo .-tn inventory of all the

February 11,1977 Tape 232 AH-1 and a deal was going to be made, this was the impression that \\'as left abroad. nv now they had apparently scrapped the idea of huilcUng twentv dra!"gP.rs in ~!P.wfounrll ;md, hv havinp. tHen tv drag!!ers built do"~<'Tl in Harystm.m or in Can3.cla or in the shipv?rds in :·!e•vfoundl;wn. They had apparently scrapped that idea and they were lo~:ing now to Great Britain and to Furope, to pick un the surplus, draggers. dragp:ers \ that vmu]d hecoi"le surplus because of the various countries implementing the 200 mile limit and the drop in fish stocks in the various oceans of the world.

In Great Britain I am told 90 per cent, is it 90 ner cent or more even higher than that of the tra~·Jlers and drag-gers are tied up and there is a good many over in Europe and so tve were led to believe that some hmv or other tve were goinp. to see John Cabot come hack across the Atlantic again , led this time-it ~11ould be. John Cahot ~!oorss out front- and a vrhole flotilla of draggers and tra,vler~ 'Jehind them sailing into Ne\vfoundland, so ~ve could have the capabilitv of catchinr; the fish t·Jhen the two hundred mile limit ,.,as declared on January, 1st. Hell , Sir, that did not happen either.

But what did happen, ~1:r. Speaker, \JaS t1-tat tl1P- rrovernment, ,.,hen thev tv-ere heing wined and dined by the r.rest Germans, entererl into an .aereern.Pn.t \vhere hy a nilot pro; ect Fould be carr~ed Of' in Ne,vfoundland tvith the Fest Germans landing f,nno tons of fish that was supposed to be caught o~ the namilton Ban~s in our fish plants here in :~ewfoundland, 0cean Harvesters, I think -Hho are the other t"m -anrl Fisherv Prorlucts in "'-!arystmm. That was the net result.

Nmv-,Nr. ~flE'R1~er, t~1at l:ind of made the peorle of this province a little hit skeptical and a little hit suspicious , Sir, about the benefits that would come to Ne,vfoundland as a result of tl1e ~I")() rni le Canao.; nn hrcnme offical on Januarv l;;;;~. of this ve.1.r • .'\pc1 no '''onrcr, :-oir, thev hecarne sus!"licim:.-; h0cause as some 'v-riters have nointed out in fi :, I

February 11,1977 Tape 23 2 All-2 HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, that as far as 1 lvas concerned it loJas the begi nn ing of t he s ell -ou t ar,ain, Si r, of the fishermen of t his ~ rovince . It \·.'C\S t he he~i nning, ~·fr . Spea1:.er , of a he trav :t] of thC' peop 1 e and the fishermen of this province . It '"a~ a douhlec r oss , Sir , if I cvE>r saw on~, the oeonlc were goinn t o he do uhlecros sed . Hr. Speal·.er . the hon .

Ministe r of Fishe r ies can sha1·.e !lis head and the hon . t ~1e Premier can say m'! are going to have a fullfledged debate on this matter of j oint ventures , and the hon . gentleman can t alk all he lH:es aho ut us not understanding the joint ventures.

I am not an exner t, Sir, on t he fishe r y of this province by a lonr. shot, but I unrlerstand t he pr incipal of .i oint venturE> ~ and if the ~nvernment had been allot..red to ge t aHav Hith it , t he fishermen tvould have been sold dot-m tre river again by the fish mer chants in this p rov ince aided , and abetted bv the ror ovi.ncial ~overnmen t. :.:0"-' I realize, trr. Spea~·. er , t hat it is the Government of Canada t·Iho ultimntely have to approve any joint venture pro ject uithin our 2!"1fl mile limit . 1 r ealize t hat. Sir. Bu t the {iovernment of Canada , '~ r.

Speake r , t·lill ~ilcr.tttnh to t!1c big lob bies t hat ~o on hv t he hiR fish merchants, e~neciallv ~ati nn~l Sea t. r • ' I . I, ,

february JJ, 1977 Tape No. 233 NM- 1 'rR. NEARY: and somP of the - and f-!icl:erson and some of the big hays ov~>r in "!ova ~cotia .-:md N<.>\I Eruswic1: <1rtd nuchec and the loht>•· starts up in Ottawa. It can he fierce. The. '\finister of Finance is there looking very serious. The "-!inist:~>.r of Finance knmvs ~..rhat I am talkin~ about.

Haybe the denturists in this Province cannot get a meeting with the ~unister of Healt 1' a~d th rv trie~ this afterrioon t0 talk about legalizing c1enturists in this Province, and the Minister of Eealth refused to see thel'l this afternoon, even thou~h very strong anpeals Here made on behalf of the dentursits by the various ministers in whose districts these gentlemen resided.

The Hinister of He2.lth refused to see these gentlemen although I have in front of ~e a letter from the Premier. it cnly carne to my desk today. and the point I am making here, Sir, before I get off the track is that the denturists May have difficultv getting to see the ~ <finster of He?..lth in this Province but the big fish merchants have no nrobleo to get in to see Romeo LeBlanc UP in Ctta~Ja. :m.. DOODY: Fno eMploys the most neonle? ~m.. NEARY: \·fuo emnloys the MOSt people? 'lfl' .. \. . DOODY: The fish merchants or the denturists? ~fR. ~TFARY: The fish merchants over in Novr.

Scotia, New Brunswick. and 0uehec do not emoloy very many neon] e in Ne\vfoundlanc1 . 'fR. DOODY: ~ationn~ Sea is qvite a si~eable orraniz~tion. t.fl'\. NEARY: It may interest the hon. gentleT'lan, \vho _iust interiecteC., Sir. to know that National Sea that have this nlant over herP on thf' ("0ut'1s i.de, t;1:1.t '\vas nractically given t0 . them as n ~?: ift hv t~is Province, and a flcpt of dra~gers. are not hnvin~ all their drag~ers. as ~1ey a~recd to, cornin~ into ~t. John's. they nrc ~0in~ over to Vnva Seetin. "F.. nnnnv: ,.-..~. 'F'\''·..,·: ':~1i~ Prnvi.nci..'t. ---~ -- --

February 11, 1977 Tape No. 233 NM - 2 HR. NEARY: No, Sir. The main point here is that - t• I .:ear. I: ear! 'tR. ~JEARY: - is th.!l.t these ueoule have an agree;.tent. They have an agreement, and tl:le ~-~inister of fisheries s:1oulc~ ,.,::kc a n0te of this - ''P ')I')IJDV: Get hack to tl:le denturists. 'Ft. ~FARY: - -v1herehy thev are su11nosed to t.e brin<;ing one hundred per cent of their dra~~ers into St. John's - ~·~. normv: ~rot true. ~~. ~mAn.v: - to look after that plant on the Sout:1side o= St. John's. ~!R. DOODY: 11Tot true. "~. I-TEARY: It is true.

And l"l.y understandin~ is, Sir, that thev are brin~ing some of these draggers over to Nova Scotia. ?-m.. DOODY: And some of the Nova Scotia draggers corn.e ir. here.. "fR. NEAPcV: No, Sir. There are none of the Nova Scotia draggers coming in here. ,.\nd the Minister should 1-:-noH the di ffereP.ce of that. '·~-- nnonv: I knorv. }fP... NEARY: Tl:e minister does not knoH. 'vfR. nnnnY: I knov . ''R. ~EA~Y: The minister got a 1oh now to try to look after the r.arn1 Rockwell 'Parl: over on Bell Islc>.nd. Eenr! Hear! '·fR. \r:o:ARY: I ·t-ri]J come to that short] ~ r too. Bu'::. '·'r. Sne~~·rr.

I af':rce with the r•ini.ster, it is very, very f,JnnY, \:o::-•: f._c:--.·:. "":•e·· put in for n LIP nroiect over there and the name of t~c ~ar~ they . 'L~.. "':F :\I, y : Thz1r i ~; t rlll' • (' . ' I : l '~ , .. 'r. ·. r .. r· ..

February 11, 1~77 Tape No. 231 '1R. NEARY : "fcGrath - No wonder poor o] d '..Yoriah is after scuttlin~ S0'fE HON. ~NRFR S : Pe.::~r! Hear! - and is now back - There is nothin~ sacred. 1-TM - 3 ~"R. ~EARY: ~1R. DOODY: ~. NEARY: No. There is nothin!!, sacred, that is rir,ht, Hhen it comes to politics. But, Sir, the denturists may have a nroblem to get in - ~. DOODY: }'{R • NEARY : Did ycu notice thev do not have a Doodv Pad:? Well they should have called it a Doody Park. But uu in Ottm-1a, ~· 'r.

Sueaker, there is no trouble r:"'- ":,_,n ~i~ boys, the big fish merchants l-7hen they start to lobby, Romeo LeBlanc and the Gc-vern:nent of Canada ~<Jill cctve in if ~·le do not start a crusade in this Province to nut a stou to it. And the minister in the provincial goverPnent ,, after h:mdlinf>; the situation very slonpily in the be?inning, finallv began to re?li?:e that this could be a red hot ~olitical issue. It is the bi~gest matter, Sir, to come before the people of this Province,I would say, in the >vhole historv of Ne~.rfoundland, even Confederation. Because, Mr.

Speaker, those of us 'v-ho do not realize it by nmv, would want to he deaf, dumb and blind or all three, that the future of this Province denenrls on the fishery. ~fr. Speaker, I he.ve 1 . .; c;tPnPrl to the l--anter and tl-Je ar~uments hack and forth from mv v;mta· .. e point here as an independent Liberal. And I hnve to analyze the statements t~1e1.t :tre nnne from this side and tho. st~te:n.ents that nre "l~de fr0m the ot ho.r side and t~en T have to try to

February 11, 1977 Tape 234 In-1 ~AR. NEA'P-Y: be objective and constructive and I have to try to pick out what I think is r:l.ght and what I think is t,•ronp. One thing, Sir, I h~ve to ap;ree \vith as I traveJ around this Province toclay - and I have c"one a fa:lr amount of travelling across Newfoundland in the last year or tt..ro and I have made a couple of trips 'Hith my hon. frienr, the Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker, do hon. members realize that the only prosperity :f_n this Province today apart now from Bowaters and Pri.ce Newfoundland J.ird ted in Grand Falls and IOr. and P.uchans ancl a COUTJle of other places where you have mining and paper, apart from that - r~. DOODY: 'MR. NEAPY: Pockt~rell Park. ,._ncl the 'Roch7P.ll Park. Apart from that, Sir, the on] y prosperity in Newfoundland today is in the areas where the fishery is big, where you have fish plants.

Hy hon. friend, the Pinister of Fisheries and I l,ave talked about it a couple of t:lt'1.es. ftnyhorl.y - I do not care '-Tho he is - go down on the Burin Peninsula and see the prosperity of the Burin Peninsula. Is that not right, my hon. friend? A~ H0N. }~}~ER: It is right. !-~. NEARY: ~o clol-m in the ~outhwest corner of this Province :i.n the district that I represent wl•ere you have arout sixty per cent of the economy of the district based on the fishery, just take a look and see the prosperity. Or g:o dol-TTl in Port au Choix ~own on the Creat Northern PeninsnJ ~- and in that immediate area what do you find?

You fi.nd prosperitv. Hherever you have fish plants ;md t··herever you have large grours of fishell".en today, you have prosperity. I r.-ean that should indicate soJTJething or other to us. Are t·!e all- s·tunnecl? Let us not "'aste our time in the next vear or tt.;o or three t't.ridr1 ing our time c:~l-ray on fool i_sh ventures anr 'tdld goose ch~ses. As far as I am concernec", Sir, I ~·.'ould put all ry er,gs in one hasl:et. Crnntecl, ~<'r~ .. ~T'eaker, i_f the opportunHy l'resents itself for the tlevelop~ent of :t rleep ~'~ter port or tl1e 0pp0rtnrdtv presents itself

February 11, 1977 Tape 234 IB-2 'f-'fR. NEARY: Rut, Sir, I woul~ stronr,Jy contend myself that you can have all of this over the next couple or three years but I will take the fjshery. ~Kr. Speaker, if this a~ministration want to make their 1"'1ark and they ~vant to stay in power for another fe~.;r years, if vle can tal<-e the Premier at his ~.,ron~ that he only wants ten years and then he tvHJ go a~-1ay and ret ire, that ten years i.s Jon~ enough~ so he says, he is on his fifth year noH. Give him another three years of this turn and that Hill be ei~ht years.

If he ~·rants to make the magic ten, then my suggestion, Sir, is that this a~ministratinn coMe up quickly, soon, enough infC~nnatton availahle, ~.;rith a coiT!prehensive fishery prograrrrne. And do not sell our fishermen out to the Hest C:errnans or the Europeans or anybody eJse in these foolish joint venture systems and by usin~ the excuse that v.re c:lo not understand them, ,,,e need mere information. Mr.

Speaker, let us not be so short-sighted, that Fe will grab a feH jobs in fj sh plants over in Harbour GraceJ and Cod only knmvs thc:c need it, let us not be so short-si$hte~ just to gra~ a few jcbs on shore and force our fisherwen off the high seas within the 200-mile limit that we fought so hard for. 1'-~r. Speaker, the trouble i!'l, the d~_nf-er is with the joint ventures system that it ~·'i] J become a Hay, a permanent way of economic Jife. And the fish merchants, Sir, ~··ho h<we never been noted for their generosity to 1 say the least,in thi~ Province ~·TOuld use the excuse, f-!r.

Speaker, not to btd lrl a f1 eet of clraggers, not to put any money back into the fishery..,

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 235 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. They take the easy way out. The Europeans are easier to deal with. No unions. You do not have to sit down across the bargaining table. They can spend more time dbwn in Florida. And, Mr. Speaker, human nature being what it is, these fellows, the fish merchants, will take the easy way out. And they would have all European draggers in here catching fish if they had their way. We must not let it happen, Sir. We have an example · now where we have this , pilot project before us, and we are told, "Oh, we got to learn. We got to find out about it.

We got to have a debate. We get the newsmen and the union and the members of the House together, and we will all sit down, and we will all get in bed together, because we do not understand it 1 • 1 We do not understand it! All of a sudden somebody on that side becomes a walking encyclopedia on joint ventures, but we do not understand it. And the press do not understand it, and the union does not understand it. Nobody understands it. }ffi. W. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I do not think the t on. member is deliberately trying to mislead the House, but I think what he is saying is,in that this government is on record as sta t ing that we are not committed to any long-term programme of joint ventures. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, the story appeared in the newspaper this morning, a Canadian Press story,to the effect that a certain gentleman in Nova Scotia, a gentleman connected with, I believe, the deep-sea fishery in that Province, complained that their proposal with a company in Germany, known as NORDSTERN, was scuttled - to use his words - because the Newfoundland Government intervened. Mr.

Speaker, we have registered strong objections to the Government of Canada and to others against any further joint ventures, any more joint ventures either by Nova Scotians, Quebec, New Brunswick, P.E.I. or indeed by any other company in Newfoundland. We make that statement, Mr. Speaker, because, like I said, we are committed to the proposition that there is only room at the present for one experimental joint venture. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 235 Page 2 - mw ~MR. SPEAKER: I do not see that there is any valid point of order before the Chair. There would appear to be a difference of opinion. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I can assure the hon. gentleman that this is too serious a matter to play games. I did not deliberately or otherwise accuse the administration of misleading the House or the people of the Province. I am saying, Sir, that they handled the whole situation very sloppy in the beginning, and there was a danger that the fishermen were going to be sold down the river again. MR. W. CARTER: None whatever. MR.

NEARY: Well, I take the minister's word for it. And I appreciate what the minister did the other day, yesterday, I think it was. MR. W. CARTER: Do you think I would be a party to that? MR. NEARY: No, I do not, Sir. No. I have more faith and confidence the minister than that, who is going to be one day, I hope, Premier of this Province. SOME HON. }ffiMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY': I told the minister during his trip to Port aux Basques - I told that minister - he and I were sitting down out in the Mamateek having a little bit of codfish together and a cup of coffee, and I said, "Mr.

Minister, I have to tell you something that if I had my choice of portfolios today, if I was in government and I had a choice to pick out a portfolio, a department of govermnent,I \vould take Fisheries, because I think the potential and the future is in the fishing industry in this Province." And I said, "~:r. Hinister if you do the right things - I know it is going to be a hard grir.c..l, you are going to have to work hard nig l1t and. Ja y - .Jut if you do tne rigitt things, one Jay you could verv easily oc Premier of L~tb I'rovince." I tol.J. the han. minister titat. :~R.

DOODY: He is a man of his word. ,. ~ t n :1 .l

Februarv 11, 1977 Tape no. 235 Page 3 - mw 1-ffi. NEARY: No, Sir . The hon . gentleman may have some opposit i on from Forest Road and from Hogan 's Pond , but I am sure the hon . minister can withstand that sort of opposition. But nevertheless , Sir, it is a very, very serious matter indeed, this matter of joint ventures.

"" I February 11, 1977 Tape 236 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: And I do not think we should wait to debate it. Here we have now, Sir, here we have it, I would like to ask the minister to explain this to me, poor old stunned Ne"Y7f who does not know the difference. We were told that the West Germany would take 6,000 tons, metric tons of fish from the Hamilton Ban:::. And the reason we were given, Mr. Speaker, was that they had the equipment, they had the fishing boats, the vessels, that could penetrate the ice and the gear that could fish under the conditions this time of the year on the Hamilton Bank. That is why, Mr.

Speaker, they were given this agreement to take 6,000 metric tons from the Hamilton Bank. But what we were not told, Mr. Speaker, is this, that that 6,000 tons now,so w·e are told,is not from the Hamilton Bank, which is incidentially the spawning ground for the fish that goes up off Labrador. I do not know whoever thought 1t up, whoever d~eamt it up, whoever let them go in there in the first place, I do not care if the ice is there or not, they are in the spmming ground. The spawning ground should be protected. But now we are told the 6,000 metric tons can go anywhere from the Hamilton Bank to Cape Freels.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister sr·akes his head, and says, no. But the Premier the other day in answer to a question - HR. ~~. CARTER: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. V:. CARTER: The Premier in defining the areas 2J and 3K: ~ '\-Ihich are ICNAF designations for certain areas in the North Atlantic, stated that that area was contained between the Northern part of Labrador up, I believe, he said, to off Cape St. Nary's.

But at no tirn.e dicl he sug?-est to this House or anywhere else t~at the 6,000 metric tons of codfish will be caught by West Germans under ttw joint VE'n ture !'roposal \·.rould be taken any'\Jhere but in the ~·:orthern 3,( ,r:~ 1 i; ( ~ tr~\· !(\!l ' ~ !•1 f, ''. ;.;. \l, i .1lll'C".\tt·tt l~) Lil1'Cl t\:. li,·r· (. ,, ~ ~ I I ' I ' ...!It'

February 11, 1977 Tape 236 PK - 2 MR. H. CARTER: Canadian quota. And I should point out, Mr. Speaker, that the stocks surplus to the G~nadain effort in that area must under the bilaterals that have been signed by Canada with five other countries must be harvested or at least given to other countries to be harvested. ) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think the situation is the same as it was previously, there is in fact no point of order; but a difference of opinion. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the West Germans hau been given n~rrnission, Sir, to catch fish, this 6,000 metric tons in areas 2J and 3K.

Is that correct? 2J and 3K. MR. W. CARTER: That is correct. MR. NEARY: You would not know but it was some kind of a code. But anyway that is where they are given permission to catch the fish. The first indication the people of this Province had that there ~·ras to be a joint venture., we were told they ~vere catching it on the Hamilton Banks,on the spawning ground because they had the vessels and so forth. Now they can move into 2J ~d 3K and that goes as far as Cape Freels. AN l-ION .• tOOfBER: lfuo is saying it? :!'-1R. NEARY: I am saying it. And they can catch that 6,000 tons anywhere in these areas.

And what they are doing nmv, Hr. Speaker, ~vhe ther the minister cares to admit it or not, they can leave nov! the spru,~ing grounds if they do not get their 6,000 metric tons and they can follmv the fish as it moves up towards Newfoundland or tO"I-Jards Labrador. They can chase the fish nm.r. And that was ~ot our understanding in the beginning. So we will learn about the pilot project all ri~ht. The pilot project was unnecessary. It looks to me, Mr. Speaker, as if we are stuck with it this year. The minister took an assist there a few moments ago for twartin~ the - .\ poiut of order . :·rr.

Spc~lL<'r, notiCL' t:t~lL the linn. )~cntlcman trom

February 11, 1977 Tape 236 PK - 3 Mr. J. Carter: Motion.,spccifically on the 200 mile limit. Now either he should not be allov1ed to discuss that then,or else ~1 · .:: should not be allm.;ed to discuss it now, and should be forced to sit dm,'n. I wonder would you rule on that,Mr. Speaker? ' .I' , I ) , \

February 11, 1977 Tape 237 I~-1 MR. SPEAKER: ~ith respect to the submission of the han. member for St. John's North (Mr. J. ~nrter), he is alludin~ to the anticipation rule anrl thnt is that an bon. TT'emher ma:v not in c1ebate anticipate 'td.th re~pcct to a subject ~nich the House has determined for consideration at a later date. '.Jith respect to that, there are t\<ro mot:f.ons on the Ord~r Paper relate~ to joint venture The operative effect of one is that this legislature condemns a certain action and the operative effect of the other would be the appointment of a select co1T!1Tlittee.

I would say that speaking on either of these two specific matters "'rould he ant :lcipat:i.on. !·~. NE.\PY: Thank you, ~·r. Speaker. Aga.in -no I better not, I ~m trying to get a .... ;ay from this matter, Sir. I do not mind interjections, !·'r. Speaker, I do not ~ind them at all. It is a pretty serious matter, a little more serious than )?Tm·Ting a fer,r roiserah] e pounrls of savoury a year. You are talking about a potential of 30,000 jobs in this Province ever the next say five to ten years. That is ,.~hi1t you are talking_ about. Hr. Speaker, the TJest Germans ui.ll now chase the fish.

Thev will get t~eir 6,000 metric tons and they will put it ashore in ~'arysto~'!l and over in Farbour Grace and no c1oubt, Sir, they 'tdll be back again next year. Now, ·Mr. Speaker, I have to say this, that ',1herever I po in this Province today I have t.<l] ked to fj shennen -o;.mo cannot unc1erstC"mC. the difference between the 200-I!d le J jr'it anc1 the situation that existed hefore January 1 of this year. Thev tell me they see no difference. You still have the big Russian trav]ers out there sucking the fish off the bottom. You have the big factorv ships.

You have 600 or 70 0 Fur~rcan vessels still o f f our coast catchi.nr. our fish. that thE''~ rn n~t -they hnve tO r-et a licCnSP, sure>, th;ot lS the only diff pr ence. Th~t i.e: ~)n ~("f1f'lf'\ 1~~ ;1r ·~, i ~ :. 0 1 , r, ~ ·l " it : l ! 11 f • ,,T)f ~ ~ (l • ::: ~- 1 ! :""' 11(1 ~~(' ~t 1 t !' ~ ; i ' ' - '-~(-'' ,""·~·~ ,. fdi ',

February 11, 1977 Tape 237 IB-2 1-'fn. NEARY: delivered H to them, clelivered their license. Got a whole bunch of ther'l and hrought therr out and p.:avP thew to them. Shame, shame on Ottawa. ~<r. monY: ~·rn • ~F..A t'Y : Shame on Otta~a - ,;.rell ~,moever's responsi'blity i.t ~·:as I say shame on them. I would like to ~ee us get treated that way in Pussia or in som.e other country, or Fnmce. Bring them out a ~rhole raft, a ,;.:rhole bunch of licenses, nelivere~ to them, not even COJ'l hecause they cUd not have to pay a rerl cent for them. A vast contrast, ~~r.

Speaker,to l,That is happening in the TTnited States. ThiR is not a condemnation of the provincial administration. I am nm·: referring to something, Sir, that falJs un~er federal jurisdiction. I do not kno~r if anybo~y satAr the reference in the flail v Ne~7S this r10rning as a contrast to ,;.rhat is happening do~m in the TTniterl States, Hhen the TTnitecl States decla.res their 200-mile JimH, ~·:hat is p.:oinl! to happen.

Do you think they are going to give free pa.sses to their foreign fleets, the vessels to go inside their 200-mile J it•dt like my hon. friend used to get for st.:reeping the ice in the Stadium one time, get a free pass? no you think that is going to happen, Sir, to the foreigners Hhen the United States declare their 200-r.lile Umit? No, Sir. And I have here in front of me a clipping frol"l the Fisheries Hanagement magaz:!.ne puhlisherl South of the horrer, daterl January 15, 1977.

I T·Tant aJJ hon. members to pay attention to this hecnnsP I have a li.ttle more informAtion than appeare~ in that ne,·?S story in The Dailv ~ews this morning. Th:fs shouJc:l open up hon. memherR eyes for them, just to shm,r the cH fference bet,.,reen Canada and the r·ni tec1 St01tes. to shol,· }w~·.' soft C<mac'lians are. ~.;e are soft pec1dlinp, the issuf' bec<tuse Pe ~.·.qnt r.>ussia to huy our Hheat. "ayhe i--'C are, T c 1o not kno~·!.

February 11, 1976 Tape 238 IB-1 }P' . NEAPY: }'aybe 'Pomeo LeBlanc and the people up in Ottawa are catP.ring to the Western Provjnces. f.xterna] Affairs. 'toTelJ I do not know ahout External Affairs. I have · not been at the game long enough yet. But m~yhe, Sjr, maybe there is a trade off. ~aybe I aM so naive and so stnnnen that I cannot see it, the internationaJ implications. But ~1hy shoul~ the United States put the boots to the foreign fishing fleets and Canada Jet them get aPay scot-free? Just listen. Ron. members should listen.

I wish there Pere more hon. members in their seats to hear ~,rhat I am about to reac:l so the y can make a comparison between what they are going to c:lo jn the United States and ~,That they have none :in Cana<"ia in connection ~ -d th the 200-ll'ile limit. It says, "200-mile limit foreign fishin!! fees proposed. " AN RON. }!E1-!BER: Table it. ~fP.. • NEA'P.Y : I l..rill table jt l•hen I reac:'l it. Are these reading g:Jasses you have there? They are not, ah. Tf the hon. ,..,inister sends me over - this is very smaJl print c:mi! I - C'ood reason. }T. NEARY: Yes.

Brinp. me over the reac:ling gJasses. fishing ~!ithin 200 nautical miles of thP T"nitei! f-tC~. tes coasts hns heen propc-ser hy the 1'.1'at ional Oceanic ~nd Atmospheric hlmjnj strAt :ton ('\'!OAI\) .," -l!ouJd somebody get me these p.:la.sses, please?-, . a(:or.!"erce Departr.ent ~p.ency. Such fees are provic:led by the Fishery Conservation And "ana~errent Act of 1076 ~,·hich extenrlerl T'nited ~·t<~. tes fishedes jnrisc:licticm tn the 200-rnile lil"jt.'' ~To, I am afr<~i(1 thev are a Jittlc hit too stronp. I think T c<ln probably ""kC" it all rir-~,t. li\ili

February 11, 1977 T~tpe 238 IB-2 }'R.. NEAP.Y: Yes,I know. "Now the proposed

schedule provjdes t'bat each foreipn vessel will be charred a fixed annual access fee of one ~ollar per pross repistererl ton,not to excee~ $5,000 a vessel. In adclition,every foreirn nation ~Tith fishinf vesse)s in the zone will be charped a fee of 3.5 per cent of the total dockside value of pounds of fish allocated to that nation. The value ~11.11 be determined by the price received by TTnite(! States fishermen for the species in the PnHed States. If there is no TTnitec'l States market an average forei~n docksiC.e price ,,Till be usecl.

"'-lritten cotmT!ent on the schecule may be sent to t'be f\irector of ~Tational Yarine Fisheries Service, (NOAA;_ Hashington, D.r. The \ . Department of r.ommerce Agency estimates that 1,400 foreign fishing vessels with an average size of 1,400 gross tons are expected to apply for fishing privileges off the Uni tee'! ~tl\tes." Just listen to that again, }~r. Speaker. "The nepartment of Commerce Agency estimates that about 1,400 foreip.n fishinr- vessels ~.ri.th an average size of 1,000 gross tons are.expected to apply for fishing privileges off the ~nited States.

They are exrecten to he pemitted to catch about 2 million metric tons of fish ~dth a doc1<sicle va1ne •II of about $553 million in 1977 in this calenclar year. An~ revenue, ~~r. Speaker, ''from the fees r,rould thus amount to about - listen to this - revenue to the Pnited States ~!Ould amount to ~32 !'lillian from the access fees and about another $19 trillion frorr. the c'locbdclE' value fees assessed against the fore:fp,n nations. Tn aric:Htjon,up tC" ~750,000 m~y he collected froM the forejpn vessels for the cost r" T~jterl States observers. ~~. Speaker just listen to this, addition, so ~e are told,

February 11, 1977 Tane No. 239 NH - 1 'tR. NEARY: to 932 million plus Sl9 million that the United States r.overnl"""ent, the authorities jn the 1lniterl States, are ~oinp.; to co11£'ct ~7Sf1,'1(

Y) to put United States observers on boar d foreign boats. Anri ¥.rhat do He charge to put our Canadian observers aboanl foreir,n boats~ Hhat do "'"" charge? N"ot one nickle, Sir, not a red cent. T,Ve charp;e it to the taxpayers of this country. That is hoH soft ann foolish we are in Canada. The United States is going to ~~ke the foreign nations pay for t:1e observers on t~1e foreign boats and He poor, old soft Canadian are going to have to ray it through our income tax. ~, fr. Speaker, did you ever hear anything so ridiculous in your life? Did vou ever in your life? Here ve ,,rent un and we \-7ere almost nrenarerl to take up arms and fi.P:ht for the 2f)

f) mile limit and \·!hen \ve r,et it the lowly fishermen off the lUll of Cane St. George that was referred to so often in t"lis han. House does not kno~v the difference. You Hould never knoH we had a 21)1) mile limit. T!l.ey go UTl, they come back, thev tell T:'.e, thev are out there in droves, 500, 600 forei~n vessels inside of our 200 mile limit and not a cent, not a red cent, thev do not even pay us for the observers that Canada has to put on board. PoH foolish can ~"e get. The United States are not going to be that soft.

And the United States,I suppose, have to export to these countries as well :1.s Canada does. I do not knmv hoF much ~·!heat Canacb. exnccts to sell in return for this 1 itt le favour. this littl~ ~ift. I have to start thinking of the. East Coast of Canada as well as ~estern C~nada. The total annual cost of research administration enforcement ancl othe asnects of m:magP!'1Pnt of the ~ 0 n r1i 1c :>:one is estimatPd to be about ~92 million. The va]uc of fish taken bv

February 11, 1977 Tape No. 239 ~lR. ~mARY: of the total cost of the prop,ramJTte, $55 million, can he attributed to foreign fishing. Nm-! then:- it is. Mr. Sneaker. 'T'here it is. 1-le are gettinr, new boats built for surveillance off our Coast, we are nuttinr. observers on board the forei~n fleets, we are delivering their licences to them free of charge and not one iota, no revenue for this Province, It js a sad, sad, sad situation indeed. It is sad. I do not knm-1 if the 'f-Unister of Fisheries agrees NM- 2 with me on that or not? The minister does.

I am certainly glad, Sir, because I am glad to be able to say it 5n this hon. House. It has not been said yet and I hope \vhen other members participate in this debate, I know we eot two motions on the Order PaJ1er, Sir, one I nut there and the other one 1vas put there by the Leader of the OpJ1osition, I am well a\vare of that but ~ve cannot wait, ~r.

Sneaker, \ve have to develop our own strategy or we will he forced,as we have beeP over the past number of years, to accent unilateral decisions from the federal governMent or a continuation of the c>.imlessness in which our fishery policy has been directed over the nast several years. Hr. Speaker, one other point that I w·ant to make before I ?,et off the suhiect of .ioint ventures, althonq;h I could stay on it all dav. I cannot help, I cannot help it. T am so carri<'d a-vray uith the potential and the prospects of the f-t_!'>hery ~mc1 ,,,hat it can do for ~e~.;rfounrlland.

And 1ve ,.;ould, as elected nembers of this rouse, if we alJ at·l our fisher!len to he sold the river to be betrayed, to he stabbed 5n the hack.

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 240 Page 1 - mw 1-~r. Nearv. to be kicked in the mid section, as they have so often in the past! If we allow that to happen again we should hang our heads in shame. The other point I want to make before I get off, Sir- I meant to make this point when I was talking about the fishing on the Hamilton Banks and the West Germans now being allowed to chase the fish, and before they get up probably to Labrador, they will be caught.- and that is, Sir, the buffer zone.

I think the minister ~~ate - if I am not mistaken did I hear tt,e minister yesterday or see something where the minister has written Ottawa about the buffer zone. TI1ey want a twelve mile - MR. W. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, the Government of Canada is talking about a twelve mile - MR. W. CARTER: Hare than talking. HR. NEARY: Yes, they are talking about twelve miles, a buffer zone. HR. DOODY: Newfoundland only is it? HR. NEARY: No, I know. I am not talking about this government. I am talking about the other one up there in Ottawa, the national government, the one that is kowtowing to the Hafia of Quebec.

You got them over in Quebec. They are trying to set up another Liechtenstein only this time it will be in Canada. And that government up there in Ottawa are talking about, and other people, people I presume who are familiar with the fishing industry, are talking about a t\..relve mile buffer zone - twelve miles. We had the twelve mile limit here for years, anJ you llt2ard what tile inshore fishermen thOU6ilt of the t\,,elve mile limit. It \..'aS absolutely useless. Our fisi: stocks anLl the oi;; :~itips o[f shore. And l10\v t:ll'Y .:re tlJ;.;.i:li~ :lbout this- G ;· 11

February 11, 1977 Tape no. 240 Page 2 - mw Hr. Near y . allowing - and not only the joint ventures but all the ships - they are allowing them to come within twelve miles of our shores again to catch the fish. That will do nothing for the inshore fishery. And I think the Province and the minister has recommended a fifty mile buffer zone. I say, "Hear, hear" to that. I am all for it. They should not be allowed to come within fifty feet of our shores. It is our management zone. Hr. Speaker, when will "'e get that into our thick skulls. When will Uncle Ottawa, the Government of Canada and Hr.

Romeo LeBlanc, who seems to be taking such an arrogant attitude towards Newfoundland these days -"I am King Kong, I am the ~linister of Fisheries. I will run the fisheries in Canada'; and the crap all over the Premier cf this Province. :t-fr. Speaker, we should fight for and settle for nothing less than a fifty mile buffer zone so that the poor old longliner fishermen and the inshore fishermen will have a break for a change. Right now I am told, Sir, and I do not know if the minister has any figures to back it up , but I am told, the people that I have talked to, that the fish are now coming in to shore.

Dow"'ll in my own district, on the Southwest corner of this Province, and probably right along the South'''est Coast, that this year there are gooJ signs of fish. There is plenty of fish, and it is big fish. Fish landings, Sir, so far,I Hould say, this year are up suostantially. ille fishermen are elated. The inshore fishermen nov I am talkin~ about. Bec2.use w·hen '"e are talking o.bout the fishery in tllis Province, ,,·e .:1re talkins about tHo kincls of fisl1ermcn, the inshore, the mid \vater - probably three kinds- and the offs~wrc. So I t~ink it ' . .-oulcl ~HO! a s:l;:cr.lc, Sir,

Febr~ary 11, 1977 Tape no . 240 Page 3 - mw ~1 r. Neary . as I am concerned , t hey should not be there at all unless they pay throug h the nos e . And then we should thi;1k twice about giving out licences . \-las not the \.rhole idea, Sir , conservation, conservat i on , conservation ! \-le had it drilled into us for t he last t en year s . Conserve our stocks. I heard an argument put up recently , and fo r a little while I \o~as kind of stunned - it was indefensible I thought - that the Gover nment of Canada would be embar rassed, they \o~ould be embar r assed to tears if \ole enforced a 20C mile limit, and we did no t go out and catch the fish . So many

February 11, lfY77 Tape No. 241 N'-t - 1 ~. NF.ARY: hungry people in the ~11orlrl, so many nations starving, if we did not [':O out anrl catch the fish it ~,rould be embnrrassing in the countries of tl1c uorld that c:lo not have :mvthin?, to eat. I doubt very -:n.uch if any of the fish fran- off the Coast nf Newfoundland gets into t:u" poorer countri~s an~rny, gets into probably the rich countries, gets into Japan, Portup,al - v:rell I do not ~:nor-r if Portup;ctl is a rich country or not, hut they nre not too had - :-;pain, France, Germany, Russia and - AN H0'l. "'~f.?'1BER: Cuba. ~-!R. NEARY: -and Cu', ;o. .

Yes, Sir. But, Hr. Speaker, is not the answer to that, is not the counter argur- .ent thc>.t the ~·rhole idea, one of the main reasons for brin~ing in the 20~ ~iJe Canadian management zone, ~,ras it not for conservation purnoses? \Jas it not? To allovr the fish stocl:s to build up. :Rut we think somehow or other, \ e have heen ~rairn-:as~1ed into thin~~ing that 1-re have to have the same number of boats off our Coast that ~-·e alw·avs had and yet the hig ar~unent t'hat ~-ms used by SOFA and used to - what is the fishery orc;anization .they h;we, the international?

IC'lAF- everv time somebody from this 'Province -;.rent to ICNAF they talked about getting the quotas reduced, thev tc>. r~ed ahout conservation and here we have it now in our own h;-:mds and ~·iP are still not ahle to take advantage of it. And of course tlte other 'm. DOODY: You should run ferleral. ::o, Sir, I should no t run fe <ie ral ~CCCIUSf' thes(• 9re t'1 Ln~s that should he s.qici in 're~-Jfounc 1 l<=~n(~.

".nd ~ f - l .:o not ':~c~:-: ·"'nr~~!0n.s .. nr anv ''T> fr(lr.l "·c,t ... ~ntlr~ , ! ~.'1.!)(:, ·.:~; 1 1'11t t!~' :1s :-;t t .. ':~- ~:, n'".'T1 ~ itt1,, l',):~:i(~ l•f .. ~.'~~':t·Plf,1v \11 c~r':lll\'c·.t lt1r1 ···' t : ' l \ •i I 1 i ( j r \.' ! \ :- I ~ r- ' ' .:

February 11, 1977 NH - 2 !·ffi.. NF.ARY: and the znn Mile Canadian management zone anrl the capability of Canadians to catch the fish. You know, "1r. Speaker, .iust to gP.t off this topic I 'l..Jant to wind it up by saying, Sir, that i_"D my opinion and in the opinion of a good many more peon1~. Fe have to adont a connrehensive plan for the development of the fisherie~·. on this Eastern Seaboard of Carada, especially here in Newfoundland and we have to take advantage of federal money that is available. He have to put the oroposals before the Government of Canada, othen.Jise thev ~..rill do it unilaterally.

And we have to tell the industry, we have to tell this }'oese - I used ultimatuim in mv se~olution in connection Fith th£> Government of Canada to stop the joint ventures,l v·1~> told that, that ··p :.; a pretty strong 'l..Jord, r>robably 'l.wuld not be allowed, and the Speaker did not allow it~ so I had to change it to somethin1,; Hishy w·ashy. But we should give the industry an ultimatum and say, "Look, smarten up. Build your draggers and your trawlers and your ships that you need. Train your peonle." ""'r.

Sneaker, He have got the beginning of it. ~{y God 'l.ve got the Fishery Colle~e over there wasting its time, herding people in everv year trvin?, to train them in all kjnds of foolish things just to ~et them in so they can get the ~lannower grants. I bet vou if you did a noll to see ~"here they are nm.J a lot of these peop] e H~1o cal!!e in, trained at the Fishery College, are probably off ,,Torkin~ in so!ne other kind of a ioh. the Fishery Colle~e merging with the College of Trades. Ve hnve got t~c trainin~ facilities. a lonP:, n'linful rroccss.

It is g 0 i_,·;· Lc t:J.:-: 0 t'lrP<>, f,,ur, fh'f' t'\t': l [ n .-..0 ('llt ;•' 1< 1 ~ :~ .. ,,~ f 'l! •' I : ~ '.; I 0 -•• '. 1 l ;_.,., i n t • · r· .~ ~ ·. I" r ', · 1 1 .. , r- · ·, · ~ 1 . · 1 , ~ • l't"

February 11., 1977 Tape No . 241 ~: - J ~ 1R. NEARY: I grasped \..rhat was mentl.l"nF.'<" in"the Throne Speech. I grasped it. Because I have been ~dvocating in ti· Ji~ Province for a good many years no':v that we should have a Provine ial Productivity Council. So therefore I am not exactly hehinrl the times, onlv not-r the government; three years later, catches up to me. But, Sir, we have the traininR facilities. 1i!e have the mannowe-r. Mav~e we do not have the attitudes. . ' ~1:1ybe our children >vere brainwashed through the educational systelll th.?t we have

February 11, 1977 Tape 242 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: through the educational system that we have into getting out of the fisheries. It was demeaning. I do not \-lan t my son to be a fisherman. He will never go in the boat. Hy son._ what do you want? Do you want to be a dentist? Do you want to be a doctor? Do you want to be a lawyer? Or do you want to be an old sock or do you want to be a fisherman? MR. J. CARTER: They would not lvant to be like you. MR. NEARY: No,and I would not want to be like you either. liiserable, pathetic spectacle. Mr. Speaker, the attitudes of our young people have to be change