Manitoba Hansard — 16 May 2002 (Sitting 33B, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-33b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker VoJ. LII No. 33B- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 16,2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARREIT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

15 61 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 16, 2002 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gord Ma ckintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Suppl ementary Inf ormation for Legislative Review 2002-2003 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2002-2003 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Labour and Immigration. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 20-The Adult Learning Centr es Act Hon.

Drew Caldw ell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith), that leave be given to introduce a bill, The Adult Learning Centres Act;

Loi sur les centres d'apprentissage pour adultes, and that the same now be received an d read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of the bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Lieutenant -Governor's message. Motion presented. Mr. Ca ldwell: I w ould like to thank the Clerk for her assistance on this. It gives me great pleasure to introduce The Adult Learning Centres Act for first reading in this House.

This important piece of legislation establishes adult learning centres as distinct entities to address the unique needs of adult learners by providing educational programs using recognized principles of adult education. It enables adult learners, Mr. Speaker, who have not completed secondary school, or who are ineligible to pursue other educational oppor tunities to obtain recognized educational creden tials in order to pursue further education and/or employment. The bill establishes a system of registration for adult learning centres with strict program quality and financial accounta bility requirements.

Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Chiropractic Car e Coverage Reduction Mr. Stuar t Mu rray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, since 19 99 the Doer govemment has seen revenues of close to a billion dollars come into this province, and that is the good news. The bad news is they have spent every thin dime an d then some. Today, the Minister of Health on CJOB ra dio quoted, and this is what the Health Minister said on CJOB. He was quoted that: The decision to cut chiro practic coverage in M anitoba was a tough decision. We, on this side, say it was a bad decision.

Health care should be about access to care and choice for patients. Would the Health Mini ster talk to the Premier and will they reverse their decision? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, firstly, with respect to the billion dollars, I believe it was the member opposite, when he was the PR director for the Con servative campaign, that talked about a billion dollars. His facts are not accurate. * (13: 35) With respect to the decision to deal with chiropractic, as I indicat ed both in this House on

15 62 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 previous occasions and on the radio this morning, there is a whole series of decisions we made. It is inter esting that members opposite told us not to spend more money. In fact, they said we are spending too much. When we made a decision with respect to a service that is not a core service, we did not do what members opposite did when they were government and cut the number of visits right across the board to all chiropractic patients. They cut the visits from 15 to 12. They made that budgetary decision.

I indicated , as well, this morning on the radio that if the federal government would come in and Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, what does the Premier have to say to the 25 000 Manitobans who have expressed their concern and disap pointment that his Government has made the decision to eliminate chiropractic care for Mani tobans under the age of 19 ? Hon. Gar y Doer (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, this is a service not covered under the Canada Health Act. It is a private service that we are contri buting co-payments to, and I thought members loved private health care. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr.

Speaker, both the Premier and the Health Mini ster like to argue that the Canada Health Act does not cover chiropractic services so it is okay in that respect to reduce coverage. I would like to point out to the Premier that neither home care nor Pharmacare is covered under the Canad a Health Act. So, under this Government's watch, under the Doer government, are Manitobans expected to have reduced Pharmacare and reduced home care? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we initiated the first home care system in North America, the non-pro fit home care system.

I remember members opposite when they did try to privatize home care after the last election campaign in '95 , how the public rebuked that. There are two election promises from the federal Liberals contained within red book [interjection] Well, let me get this straight. The barking dog gets moved up front now so he can chirp a little louder here in the House. Is this the deal? Is this the new Tory team? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to remind all honourable members that each and every member in the House is an honourable member and they should be referred to by their constituencies or ministers by their portfolios. I ask the honourable First Minister to please withdraw that comment. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I did not refer to any member, but I will withdraw the comment. I certainly think that heckling is out of order. The member opposite continues to heckle. I find it passing strange that the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) has moved back, the Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura) has moved back and this member has moved forward. Mr.

Speaker: Order. Before I go to the next question I would like to thank the honourable First Minister for that withdrawal. Mr. Doer: I have not finished my answer yet. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Conclude your comment. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, in 19 97 the Liberals, in their red book, promised to bring a 50-50 program or a national home care program in under the Canada Health Act. In 19 97 the Liberals promised to have a national pharmacare program. We certainly have reminded the federal government of that in our presentation to the Romanow Commission.

There are no political commitments by the federal government to put chiropractic services under the Canad a Health Act. This is a private system that gets co-payments from the provincial government. Members opposite celebrate and worship at the altar of private systems. I am surprised they are flip-flopping on this issue. Chiropractic Care Coverage Reduction Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charieswood): We learned today that 25 000 Manitobans have signed protest letters asking this Government to reverse their decisions about their chiropractic cuts. I would like to ask this Minister of Health

May 16 , 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 15 63 today if he will reverse his decision on the chiropractic coverage, cuts that he made to that, if he will truly listen to the Manitobans that are asking him not to cut back care to children and to other patients in Manitoba. * (13 :40) Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, what I find very strange in the member's question is they voted against our Budget that expanded health care dramatically to every man, woman and child in the province of Manitoba. They voted against and they campaigned against our expanded nurses pro gram.

Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laur endeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Beauchesne 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, if the minister does not know the answer to the question, he should just sit down. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member specifically asked a question about the Budget, related to coverage under the Budget. I was responding with respect to budgetary questions, which I note there have not been a lot of. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would like to take this opportunit y to remind all ministers that Beauchesne 417 : Answers to questions be brief, deal with the matter that is raised and to not provoke debate. I ask the co-operation of all honourable ministers, please. *** Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member has made a reference to the press conference held by the chiropractic association and a series of letters they brought in.

As I said on the radio this morning, I understand a lot of Manitobans care about chiropractic, and that is why it has not been de-insured. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to table a letter from a Mr. Frank Richards who called the Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) to complain about these cuts to chiropractic coverage and was told by the Member for Transcona that some chiropractors lived in Tuxedo, some chiro practors made $200,000, some chiropractors drove big cars, and that he only drove a tin can. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs.

Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister of Health if it is indeed, as Mr. Richards titled his letter, NDP jealousy of chiropractors' lifestyle that is the true reason for medicare cuts. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member has enough trouble defending her own comment s and her own words, never mind introducing third-party comment s. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask this Minister of Health if the million dollars that he is saving from cutting chiropractic care for children is what he is actually going to use to build his sandwich factory. Mr. Cho miak: No.

Family Farms Government Commitment Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Yesterday we read that the exodus of the Manitoba farm had been reduced by 13 .6 percent. The majority of that reduction occurred in the last five years. I want to ask the Premier whether he has read the headline in the Winnipeg Free Press today that says: Manitoba leads the farm exodus. Can the Premier tell me whether the next headline we will read in the Winnipeg Free Press will be Manitoba farmers become an endangered species? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier) : First of all, I am pleased the agricultural question has finally been asked by members opposite.

It is not my job to

15 64 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 presume what members opposite should ask, but the fact it was not a lead question yesterday shows me how low the priority of agriculture has now become in a party that has stood up for agriculture for generations. Mr. Speaker, the fact the question was not asked yesterday I think was regrettable, because to us it was a very important issue. Let me correct.

I know facts are not important to some members, but the Stats Canada survey was from May of 19 96 to May of 2001, so we should not put a partisan twist on three and a half years of Tory rule and one and a half years ofNDP rule. * (13: 45) The real Issue here is we have had a significant decline in the numbers of farmers here in Manitoba, right across Canada, but more particularly in areas where the subsidies have been the greatest. I think the grain and oilseed areas in Manitoba and Saskatchewan have been hardest hit. Members opposite will know this because the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) has been dealing with this, the former Minister of Agriculture as well as the present Minister of Agriculture. I am pleased members opposite have joined us against these obscene U.S. subsidies, which have put a lot of livelihoods at risk. I would suggest to members opposite we have a challenge. These numbers represent, as I say, two thirds of one regime and one third of another regime. The bottom line is we are all in this together to fight for the family farm, and I appreciate the question today. Mani toba Crop Insurance Program Funding Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): I am really pleased the Premier is finally putting some priorities on agriculture. Just so that we know the sincerity with which the Premier talks about this, I would like to ask the Premier: Why did his Government remove $53 million from one of the income security programs farmers have, namely Crop Insurance? Hon. Gar y Doer (Premier): The member opposite knows the criteria for Crop Insurance. There were a number of measures we have taken, including spreading or improving the scope of Crop Insurance for unseeded acres based on heavy and excessive moistures. Mr.

Speaker, members opposite raised the taxation rate. In fact the portioning on taxes was just changed this year. During the five years the member was talking about, the Tory portioning on agriculture was raised from 26 percent to 30 percent. We have reversed this. The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen) has reversed that portioning on agriculture from 30 percent to 26 percent . Canadian Farm Income Program Funding Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Again, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to hear the Premier is finally recognizing the dilemma that his farm community is in.

His advice to Manitoba farmers was during the election campaign: Vote for the NDP and we wiii stand by the family farm, and we will save the family farm- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mack intosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 409(2): "A supplem entary question should need no

preamble." Would you please remind the honourable member. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Emerson, on the same point of order. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Speaker, the Premier knows full well this government, this Cons ervative government, removed $20 million of ESL taxation from farm land. His reduction does not even come close to comparing to the reduction we had in this province. * (13 :50) Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members Beauchesne Cita-

May 16 , 2002 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 65 tion 409(2): A supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the honourable member to please put his question. * * * Mr. Jack Penner: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I appreciate your caution. I want to ask the Premier why it is that in this year's Budget they are removing a further $4.25 million from the Canadian farm income protection plan when he is as serious as he said about the protection of the farm communit y and the family farm in this province of Manitoba. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite will know there are some agricultural investments now that are increasing and improving.

When the member opposite asks what the headline will be with the next Stats Canada report, I am hopef ul and I think we all have to work toward a strategy that reverses the decline in family farms here in Manitoba. The member asked, and I am hoping the headline next year in agriculture will be: Manitoba now growing more potatoes than any other province in Canada. That is what I am hoping the strategy will be. I am hoping the headline will be, and I do not write the headlines, that Manitoba is leading the country in biotechnical expansions that improve agri cultural development .

In fact, there was a headline about that yesterday. I am hoping the headline next year will be: Nutraceutical centre and investments here in Manitoba are taking diversification of crops into healthy foods and leading the country in a new $20-billion industry. I hope next year the headline is that the number of seeded acres of potatoes has grown 8.8 percent in the last two years. Mr.

Speaker, the grain and oilseed sectors and the pulse crop sector are under the obscene subsidy threat of the so-called free traders, friends of members opposite, and that is why we have to bind together with the family farm and deal with this problem in a legitimate way. Hells Angels Retail Outlet Opening Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Ga rry): Mr. Speaker, police say the Hells Angels are responsible for a series of shootings and assaults in Winnipeg, as well as being major players in drug trafficking and prostitution. The gang has been linked to an attack on a police officer's home.

Now the Hells Angels are trying to open a retail store in the Exchange District. What has the Attorney General done to support the City to prevent this from happening here in Winnipeg? Hon. Gord Mackint osh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am sure that members opposite may be aware that after years of inaction and lack of specialization and targeting of gang crime in this province, the Prosecutions branch now, under our watch, has a gang unit in place.

I also say we have in place a prison gang suppression team which is growing in its ability to link with both police and all the correctional facilities in Manitoba for the surveillance and intercept ion of communica tions involving criminal organization members. As well, we have introduced a witness intimidation strategy that is overdue in this province. We also provided, along with Quebec, some national leadership to get C-24, new criminal organization provisions in the Criminal Code in place.

Those are some of the initiatives we have ushered in because, clearly, it demands innovat ive and different ways of tackling this issue. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, will the Attorney General advise this House today what he has done to support the City to prevent the Hells Angels from opening a retail store in the Exchange District? Mr. Mackintosh: Yesterday, we heard of members opposite who said do not interfere in the retail businesses of this province even when they are selling products that kill our youth. Today they are saying get involved, so perhaps they want to look at their strategy on retail businesses.

I will say this, Mr. Speaker, that we have been in discussions with the Winnipeg Police Service in terms of the application of [interjection) They like to hear themselves ask questions and go no further. * (13: 55)

15 66 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 As I have said, we are having ongoing discussions with Winnipeg Police Service as a department to see how we can support the Winnipeg Police Service with their concern and our mutual concern about this particular initiative to determine what is behind it and what the links are. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, will the Attorney General support the mayor of this city, when the mayor said he would like the City to have the power to reject applications from criminal groups but would probably require provincial legislation?

Will the Attorney General do something specific to prevent the Hells Angels from opening the retail store in the Exchange District? Mr. Mackinto sh: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to confirm this Government is looking for any ways the Province can bring to bear laws, whether they are new laws or existing laws, to deal with this challenge. It is indeed one of the challenges of organized crime in that it often operates with a face of legitimacy, so it is important that there be different and innovative strategies that have not existed.

We will be discussing with the City and the city police ways or methods to address this issue. We look forward to a co-operative approach, because anyth ing that can be done has to be done, but I remind Manitobans when provincial legislation was introduced in this House to deal with organized crime the Opposition made a very clear statement that it was not a priority and refused to pass that before Christmas. Ma nitoba Hydro Financial Statements Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, the Minist er of Finance is forcing Manitoba Hydro to put debt on Hydro's books to provide cash to the Province to cover the Doer government's operating deficit. This is cate gorically off-balance-sheet financing. Mr. Speaker, would the minister explain to Manitobans what KPMG, who are the auditors for Hydro, has to say about the minister's refusal to allow Hydro to meet CICA requirements by restating their third-quarter statement to reflect the fourth withdrawal of $15 0 million from Hydro to cover last year's operating deficit? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, the obvious answer to the member's question is that the third-quarter financial statement was distributed to you and to other members of the Legislature on Febru ary 19. When the fourth-quarter financial state ment comes out, it will bring everything up to date, which is the appropriate mechanism to deal with it. Mr. Loewen: The appropriate mechanism is to restate it. I would like to ask the minister: Has he consulted with the Auditor General to get his opinion on the advisability of using off balance-sheet financing to cover operating deficits? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, the Auditor General has free and full access to my office. He can give me advice anytime he wishes. I am sure he will if he thinks it is appropriate. The decision that we made with respect to the Budget to transfer some of the excess profits of Hydro to the Government of Manitoba was to provide fiscal stability to this province, something the members opposite did when they privatized the Manitoba Telephone System.

Then, because they were afraid to deal with the success of Manitoba Hydro in generating profits from exports, they did backroom deals through the back pages of the Hydro annual report where they had of f-the-book financing for government projects which they never disclosed to any body. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary question to the minister: Does he have an analysis that he can table which will show the effects of the borrowing that was required by Manitoba to undertake the $288- million payment to the Province of Manitoba to help finance the purchase of Winnipeg Hydro and for the construction of the Wuskwatim dam? Can he table an analysis that will show to the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro what effects all that borrowing will have on their hydro-electric rates? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated several times in this House that the transf er from Hydro is a result of the profits over and above

May 16 , 2002 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 67 what was forecast of $37 1 million. These profits are the result of building the Limestone project in the late eighties, early nineties, a project that was deliberately built for export purposes. It is only appropriate that Manitobans, who guaranteed and provided the leadership from this side of the House to build that project, should see those benefits accrue to all Manitobans.

This is in stark contrast to the members opposite who broke an election promise not to privatize the telephone system, sold the telephone system, put some of the profits into the Fiscal Stabilization Fund and then used them to fuel their re-election bid, which failed in the last election. Winnipeg Casinos Air Qu ality Study Mr. Speaker: The honoura ble Member for River Heights. Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for River Heights has the floor. * (14 :00) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, earlier this week the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation indic ated there will be a comprehensive assessment of air quality at the Club Regent and McPhillips Street Station casinos. My question to the minister is: What aspects of air quality will be measured, and when will the report of the findings be presented? Hon.

Diane McG ifford (Minister charged with the adminis tration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): As I did indicate earlier this week, and as the member has reiterated, there will be an air quality study at the McPhillips Street Station casino and at Re gent Street casino. The date on the purchase orders was March 12 , 2002. We expect this study in late May, early June, and it is expected to be completed in September. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, what the minister is referring to is a replacement of the carbon filters.

I ask the minister to admit those carbon filters have not been replaced in three years when they should have been replaced in one year and a maximum two years, and in fact they are a major reason we have a shortfall in air quality in the casinos, and that is causing a lot of health problems for people. Ms. McGifford: When the member opposite is in full flight, I am always reassured that there is a doctor in the House , because I sometimes worry about his blood pressure. Mr. Speaker, I have no idea what the member is referring to.

I am referring to a study on the filtration system of lotteries, which will be undertaken in late May or early June. The results will be available in September. I do not know how he knows what I am referring to. I do know what I am referring to. Mr. Gerrard: Too many times the minister has misled this House, and I would- Some Honoura ble Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to take this opportunity to ask all members for their co-operation, when picking words, to just use a little caution. All members are honoura ble members.

I would ask members to be a little gentle with each other in the phrases that they are using. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laur endeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the member was clearly using the word "misleadin g," which is definitely parliamentary . If he had stated "deliberately misleading, " then we would have had reason to give him a warning, but to advise the member not to use the word "misleadin g," I think we might be in trouble in this House, because that is something that side is always doing. Mr. Speaker: The honoura ble Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the member was being cautioned by the Speaker, was not being called on a point of order and was not being asked to

15 68 LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 withdraw any remarks or change his wording. It was simply a caution in order to maintain the decorum of the House, which is the role of the Speaker in any Legislature. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I was giving a caution to all members of the House, because when it starts to use words that are getting close to-sometimes it just takes one incid ent to go over the limit. That is why I was asking all members just to be careful in the words they choose. It was a general caution to all members.

I was not referring to one member specifically, but in the future please be careful in choosing your words because every member here is an honourable member. *** Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Mini ster responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corpo ration to admit that the operating manual, which describes how you evaluate whether the air conditioning system is working, describes one test which is called the snif f test to detect the odours coming from the filtration system.

I would suggest to the minister that the odours coming have clearly indica ted the system is not working properly, as many have reported to me, and that the minister perhaps should go to the casinos and smell for herself. Ms. McGifford : Well, Mr. Speaker, I guess I could say the only one blowing smoke is the member opposite. I just want to bring to this member's attention that the administration at the Manitoba Lotteries Commission are professional people who care for their workers, who care for their customers, who are doing a very good job and have undertaken this study.

I only wish this same kind of work had been undertaken at Pinawa where we have a nuclear waste site. Sherridon Rail Line Service Resumption Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Tran sportation and Government Services. Last Friday a fire on the Sherridon rail line to Pukatawagan and Lynn Lake destroyed a bridge. Conseq uently, 53 Mathias Colomb First Nations passengers were unable to reach their destination by rail. Can the minister update the House on what the provincial government has done to assist in resolving this problem? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Trans portation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I hope all members will listen to this because, believe you me, if you live in Mathias Colomb or any of the communities served on the Sherridon line or the Hudson Bay rail line when it is your vital link to the community, a situation like this is serious. I was notified last Friday. I know the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), who represents the area, has been in constant contact with me.

EMO worked along with other agencies, and particularly I would like to give credit to Hudson Bay rail because they worked very closely and worked very hard to get members of the community back into the community because, once again, this was the only access. I know the repairs are ongoing, and the hope is that we will see a resumption of service. I believe even yesterday there was hope to have service resumed. I want to commend everyone that was involved in this, again, people from Mathias Colomb, chief and council in particular, and EMO. This is the kind of thing we do as Manitobans.

When there is an urgent situation, we act as soon as possible, another example of our emergency responders and communities working together, in this case, getting back the service very quickly. Workers Com pensation Rate Increase Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, this NDP government is quickly acquiring the characteristic of helping the Premier's (Mr. Doer) friends through such things as increased administ rative costs, running deficits in arm's length agencies and that sort of thing. The

May 16 , 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 156 9 Workers Compensation Board will be seeing rising premiums of 11 .4 percent over the next four years. This is an unprecedented raise in the last 10 years. I want to ask the minister who is responsible for the Workers Compensation Board why she is allowing the Workers Compensation Board to increase this kind of premium to the payers of workers compensation, when in fact admin istrative costs have increased by $2 million and the Workers Compensation Board is now running a deficit of something like $2.4 million. * (1 4: 10 ) Hon.

Becky Barrett (Minister cha rged with the admi nistration of The Workers Com pensation Act): Mr. Speaker, I did answer practically the same question two days ago in the House, but I am more than happy to answer the question again today. First of all, the Governn 1ent does not allow the Workers Compensation Board to set the rates. The Workers Compensation Board sets its own rates. It certainly does under our Govern ment. Secondly, the administrative costs of the Workers Compensation Board of Manitoba are the lowest in the country.

Third, the Workers Compensation rate that will be increased as of July 1 will still have the Workers Compensation Board of Manitoba rates the lowest in the country. I would suggest they look at the pro vince of Alberta where the Workers Com pensation rates were just increased by 23 .7 percent. Workers Compensation Investments True North Entertainment Complex Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister what rate of return she expects from the Workers Compensation Board investment in the new arena.

It is an investment of $7.5 million, when in fact we are told the reason for the increased rates is because of poor investment decisions in the past. Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Workers Com pensation Act): Mr. Speaker, the member is wrong in his statement about the $7.5- million participation in the True North project. It is a line of credit. It is not an investment. The investment committee of the Workers Compen sation Board has, over time, a very good record of providing a good return on investments.

The investment community as a whole, and the workers compensation investment community across this country, are suffering from the same effects of the economic downturn felt late last year, exacerbated by the tragic events of September 11. We have all the confidence in the world in the investment committee's decisions that they will make in these very, very difficult times. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister why she would allow for what she says is a line of credit, which still puts at risk $7.5 million.

This is the same minister who tried to take $30 million out of MPIC and, once the public outrage became apparent, she reversed her decision. Today she is trying to put another $7.5 million in a venture capital outfit. She is the minister responsible. I want to ask her why she is doing this on the backs of small business people- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the honourable member did not have a good lunch or is not feeling well today, but that was, clearly, a very significa nt abuse of the rules.

Beauchesne Citations 409 and 410 make it very clear: No

preambles. He was going on and on with an extensive

preamble. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne Citation 409(2) advises us that supplementary questions should not require a

preamble. * ** Mr. Speaker: When the honoura ble member was putting his question, I was standing up and

1570 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 your mike was probably cut off, so I would ask you to please stand up and put your question. Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will start again. I want to ask the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board: Why is this mini ster, who has already tried to steal $30 million from MPI, allowing $7.5 million to be taken- Mr. Speaker: Order. recognized the honourable Member for Russell to put his question, not to rephrase the whole question. The honourable Member for Russell, please put your question. Mr. Derkach : May I go on a new question, then?

Mr. Speaker: New question? You will have the opportunity once you put this question and the minister answers it; then you will have the opportunity to put another question. I ask the honoura ble Member for Russell to please put his question. Mr. Derkach : I want to ask the Mini ster responsible for the Workers Compensation Board why she is allowing the Workers Compensation Board to invest $7.5 million of ratepayers' money into a risky venture to begin with where returns can be questionable. Ms.

Ba rrett: If the critic understood the relationship between the Workers Compensation Board and the Government, it is an arm's-length organization. The minister has no allowing to do. It was a decision that was taken by the investment committee and the Workers Compensation Board without any inte rference or discussion at all or influence or any other of the things the former government may have done in their relationship with the Workers Compensation Board but we have not. Workers Compensation Admin istration Costs Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): Had administration costs not increased at the Workers Compensation Board by $1. 9 million in 2001, the Workers Compensation Board would have come very close to balancing their budget last year. Instead, under her watch they incurred a $2.4-million deficit. If the Workers Compensation Board's current financial situation calls for an 11. 4% rate increase, why has this minister chosen to let the Workers Compensation Board hike up their administration costs and stick Manitoba small businesses with this bill? Hon.

Becky Barrett (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Workers Compensation Act): As I stated in my earlier answer, the Workers Compensation Board has the lowest administ ration costs of any workers compensation board in Canada. In addition, the 11 % increase the member talks about is a projection over five years. Even if that were the case and we were at the $1 .66 rate that is projected as a possibility for five years, we would still be lower than the Province of Alberta, which this year increased their rates by 23.7 percent and now have a rate of $1 .68. So much for the vaunted Alberta advantage. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mental Health Care Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Health has been working very hard over the last year on mental health renewal to raise the profile of mental health. Majo r initiatives announced during Mental Health Week did not receive the attention they warrant; therefore, I want to highlight here specifically the innovation on co-occurring mental health and substance abuse disorders. Last week our Health Minist er (Mr. Chomiak) attended a workshop with Drs.

Kenneth Minkof f and Christie Cline and approximately 40 stakeholders. The workshop, the first step in a multi-year project, officially launched the new service model that has just been developed to improve support for Mani tobans with co-occurring issues of mental health illness and substance use disorders.

May 16 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 15 71 Using a training for trainers' approach, Mr. Speaker, this initiative will provide system-wide training for all mental health and addiction service programs operating within the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. It will also improve integration and continuity of mental health services so that clients can better access appropriate services at the right place and at the right time, rather than having different services that do not jo intly address these problems of addiction and mental health problems that often occur together in a person.

Funding has been provided by the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, Addictions Founda tion of Manitoba and Manitoba Health. The intention is to expand it province-wide. This new mental health initiative ties in closely with mental health renewal, a priority of the Department of Health. With stakeholders, Mani toba Health has developed a four-year plan for profiling mental health and broadening the mandate of the mental health system that includes a vision, statement, goals and objec tives.

Two goals of our mental health renewal plan are improving services and clients' ability to access appropriate services at the right place and time and, secondly, to improve integration and continuity of mental health and health-related services. Our approach is based on an overall population health principle and- Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourab le member's time has expired. * (14 :20) Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I was watching my red light carefully, and it did not flash. {interjection} I feel like the Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) is vouching for me here. He was also watching.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Normally, I press the button for the light to start blinking at 15 seconds. This time I was a little preoccupied, and I take full respons ibility. I did not press the button, so I would kindly ask the House if they would allow her 15 seconds to add. My error. I just ask 15 seconds. Agreed? [Agreed] I will press 15 seconds. * * * Ms. Cerilli: I want to conclude by saying that our approach is based on an overall population health principle and community-based strategies. With early detection, people can be more appropriately treated.

I want to congratulate our Minister of Health on his commitment to mental health in Manitoba and assure all those people with mental illness in Manitoba that this Government understands and is concerned about their needs. Hog Watch-Fu nding Withdrawal Mr. Ha rry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I choose to use my member's statement for an urgent appeal to the Premier (Mr. Doer). We have had the unprecedented action in this House this week when we recognized the difficulties of agriculture. We have supported in quick fashion the resolution of the Premier. Mr. Speaker, we have all spoken about it.

We read the headlines in the Free Press that we do not like about the demise of the family farm. One of the few bright candles that are still burning in agriculture is in the pork industr y, and the Premier is fully aware of it. Now I ask the Premier to do the one thing that he can do immediately without any cost to the Treasury, in fact with a savings to his Treasury. Stop funding organizations whose sole motive is the destruction, the blowing out of that candle in the pork industry. Hog Watch is getting $50,000. It is not a neutral body.

Its stated goal, its stated aim, you check their Web site, their stated aim is to destroy or tum back the clock and stop hog production in the province of Manitoba. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is one thing that the Premier could do just upon leaving the Chamber. He could suggest to his appropriate minister: Look at it. Hog Watch need not get $5 0,000 of taxpayers' money, of hog producers' money, to kill their industry; who are deliberately on a

157 2 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 daily basis misrepresenting the indust ry, providing misinf ormation to the industry and generally feannongering the general public about pork production in the province. Western Canada Aviation Museum Ms. Bonnie Kor zeniowski (St. Jam es): Mr. Speaker, on April 18 , the Western Canada Aviation Museum held a Volunteer Appreciation Celebration to honour the 333 individuals who contributed approximately 38 10 0 hours of time, talent, and skills in the year 2001.

If valued at a bargain rate of $15 per hour, these volunteers donated more than $571 ,500 to the Western Canada Aviation Museum. The WCAM volunteers represent a diverse cross-section of the community, but regardless of their age, occupation or gender, they share one cherished goal-to preserve Canada's aviation heritage. Ms. Sharon Morden, Volunteer/Rental Office, who deserves credit, praised the vol unteers for their hard work and noted that their dedication is truly inspiring. Each volunteer, in their own way, has made a difference to the museum and to the community at large.

The museum states that they could never repay these volunteers for their efforts. The Appreciation Celebration was their way of demonstrati ng their sinc ere gratitude to the men and women who help keep the museum going. "We could not do it without them!" I had the honour at the celebration of presenting 20-year plaques to the following volunteers: John Datskiw, Wesley J. Maher, Ed Juzak, and A.F. Morien. These volunteers have been around almost as long as the museum itself. They are an integral part of the WCAM, as are all of the volunteers.

I also helped present certificates to the 98 volunteers who had donated 1 00, 300, or 500 hours of service in 2001 and to the three volunteers who had donated an astonishing 10 00 hours or more during the year. The recipients were: David Fox, Elizabeth Kobold and A. F. Morien. These people truly exemplify the generous spirit of volunteerism in Manitoba. I know this Assembly joins me in extending my gratitude and congratu lations. Family Farms- Reduction Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr.

Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to bring forth a private members' statement on the situation in agriculture in Manitoba as well. Mr. Speaker, it was an nounced today by the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) that, of course, the Statistics Canada numbers indica te that Manitoba has lost 13 .6 percent of its farmers in that five-year period '96 to March 2001. Of course, they were saying that a good deal of those years were under the Manitoba PC government rule. Our government was the government, and the PC Party was the government in Manitoba for those first three years up till the fall of 19 99.

However, there were a great many points made by this government in support of: such as the flood money for the southwest part of Manitoba and other regions, bringing crop insurance wet acreage payments in place; the development of bringing forth mechanisms that will allow for the expansion of the hog industry that we have seen as one of the success stories that the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eons) as minister involved at that time did and has just pointed out now as well, Mr. Speaker.

The point is that the transition from the Crow benefit loss to the farm bill of the United States today is something that this government of the day has taken nothing into consid eration to deal with in regard to the future of Manitoba. There are many farms that are viable in rural Manitoba today and there are many oppor tunities. They have been pointed out in this House many times.

But there are farmers out there today struggling in the size of their operations, trying to maintain the opportunity of squeezing that last 7 or 8 cents out of a dollar of grass, when in fact it is in the 92-cent range of investment that they have to make to get a gross dollar in this industry today. Of course, that has Jed to a changing of the types of farming that we are having in Manitoba and we have been most impacted by it.

May 16 , 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 73 I would just like to say in closing that, as well as being the highest taxed west of Quebec, there is only Prince Edward Island that has lost more farmers than we have in Manitoba. * (14: 30) Chris Chat elain Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assinibo ia): I rise today to congratulate Chris Chatelain of Sturgeon Creek Collegiate who recently came first in the sixth annual Manitoba Robotics Game Competition. This competition is sponsored by the Manitoba Science Council and focusses on developing high-end, critical-thinking skills utilizing leading-edge technolog y.

I understand that Chris has just come back from a competition in Calgary sponsored by the Southern Alberta Institute of Technolog y. This was an open competition with high school and university students competing in a sumo wrestling event. This event has students develop robots that will push, pull or flip their opponents out of the ring. It is a high-level skill, and you have people from all the high schools in western Canada along with universities all through western Canada competing. Chris, who has been enrol led for three years in the electronics program at Sturgeon Creek, designed and built two robots.

One auton omous robot which actually works without remote control uses its own ar tificial intell igence and one robot that was working on remote control . I am pleased to an nounce that Chris was awarded second place in this competition. This is a wond erful feat that he should be extremely proud of. I would like to also mention Gary Yakimoski, the electronics teacher at Sturgeon Creek Collegiate, who in addition to running a challenging state-of-the-art program, also con ducts a school robotics club.

This club has kids work in it, and what they do is they talk about problems, they talk about solutions to the electronics and computer systems. I am sure we all wish Chris well in his studies in the second year computer program, an analyst program, at Red River next year. I know with achievements like this, we can look forward to a very bright future in this province. Thanks, Chris. You have done a good job. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Busine ss * (1 4:30) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to obtain the unanimous consent of the House to rescind the Estimates sequence change moved and agreed to yesterday, to change the Estimates sequence in the Chamber by switching the Justice Estimates with the Estimates of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Would you ask if there is consent? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to rescind the Estimates sequence change moved and agreed to yesterday, May 15, to change the Estimates sequence in the Chamber by switching the Justice Estimates with the Estimates of Consumer and Corporate Affairs? Is there consent? [Agreed} Mr.

Mackintosh: I wish to obtain the consent of the House to vary the sequence for the consi deration of Estimates by switching in the Chamber the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tourism with the Department of Justice and that is to apply permanently. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence for consideration of Estimates by switching in the Chamber the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tourism with the Department of Justice? Is there unanimous consent? [Agreed} Mr.

Mackintosh: I wish to obtain consent of the House to vary the sequence for the consid eration of Estimates by switching in committee room 254 the Department of Labour and Immigration with the Department of Conservation. This change is to take effect for Tuesday May 21 and is to be in effect for the balance of the week of May 21 -23.

15 74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence for the consi deration of Estimates by switching in committee room 254 the Department of Labour and Immigration with the Department of Conservation? This change is to take effect for Tuesday May 21 and is to be in effect for the balance of the week of May 21- 23 . Is there agreement? [Agreed} Mr. Mackintosh: I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms. Barrett), that the House resolve into Committee of Supply.

Motion agreed to. * (1 4:40) CO MMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONS ERVATION Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg) : Good afternoon. Will the Conm1ittee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consid eration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. We are on page 48 of the main Estimates book. 12 .4. Conservation Programs (

e) Forestry

(4) Forest Management and Development (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $506,80 0--pa ss; (

b) Other Expenditures $3 7 ,000--pass. 12 .4.(5) $1, 41 1, 900. Forest Regeneration Stock Mr. Ha rry Eo ns (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, there was a time when the department was more actively and directly involved in providing forestry generation stock, I would call it, through the nurseries boili up at The Pas and in Pineland. I am aware, of course, that these have changed and the actual production of nursery stock is now no longer directly involved with the department, or at least at some arm's length with respect to Pinelands.

What is the situation and from whom does the Government purchase its seedling stock for replanting? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): All of the nursery stock 1s supplied by the Pineland Nursery. Mr. Enos: The Pineland Nursery now is the sole provider of stock. I know roughly what has happened there. But what is the current situation, and what if any relationship does Pineland continue to have with the department and with Government? I note iliat there is a zero line in these appropriations.

Is this what we would call now created as a stand-alone agency where-have the assets of Pineland Nursery, which at one time were part of ilie assets of the department, part of the assets of the Government, been signed over or sold to the group now managing the Pineland Nursery? Just some general inf ormation about the structure of Pin eland Nursery. One other question while on that: In the arran gement that we arrived at with respect to Pinela nd Nursery, is the Manitoba government obligated to purchase all of its nursery stock from that facility, or indeed can you go shopping elsewhere? Mr.

Lathlin: The Pineland Nursery that the member refers to is, of course, a special operating agency. It operates at arm's length from government, but there is a board that operates the nursery, I understand, at a break even-point basis. The Deputy Minister of Conser vation chairs the board of directors. As far as buying the seedlings from elsewhere, yes, we can go on the open market. Mr. Enns: I will just pass. Mr. Cha irperson : 4. Conservation Programs (

e) Forestry

(5) Forest Regeneration Stock $1, 41 1 ,900--pass;

(6) Pinela nd Forestry Nursery. I will just read that into the record. 4. (

f) Fisheries

(1) Administ ration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Enos: I was mistaken. I thought maybe there was a general item here that I would have a chance to speak to. Since last we met the minister has tabled the Five-Year Report on the Status of Forestry in the House, which I thank him for, not that I want to take up any great deal of time on this. I look forward to perusing it more carefully myself, but more importan tly, just how this will work out over the next period of years for the Government. One specific question. I am aware that we are talking about all the forestry resources in the

May 16 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 75 provinces, but, certainly, from my knowledge, what I call the east shore, the eastern portions of the province east of Lake Winnipeg - Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please. We have finished all the lines in 4.( e), which is about Forestry. Is there leave to revert to Forestry? [Agreed} Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I will not abuse this leave. I just wanted to make the one general comment. It is just in the last few days the minister has also issued a public press release indicating the appointment of a Mr.

Phil Fontaine to head a group that is going to, in my opinion, be directly involved with the future economic development, well, all things in that region. My understanding of it is that that is probably the part of Manit oba that has been the least scmtinized by anybody in terms of forest inventori es, in terms of overall resources. There has been less activity. Whether it is mining companies searching for mineral deposits, whether it is our own forestry people doing very active forestry inventory work in that area, I am assuming that in combination with this five-year look at forestry, the task force that Mr.

Phil Fontaine is heading up in that area will provide the minis ter, will provide the Government with a blueprint, if you like, or at least some recommendations as to how the resources of that fairly significant part of the province, which, I think the minister and I both agree, is largely undeveloped, under serviced, and yet, at the same time, holds out consid erable opportunities and challenges for the First Nations people that reside in the area, as well as others. But I suppose my question is whether the group that Mr.

Fontaine heads will have consid erable impact with respect to all resources but also forestry resources on the east side of the province. Mr. Lathlin: Yes, the member is correct. We have started what we call the east side Lake Winnipeg land use planning process. We have completed phase 1, as a matter of fact, in that process, phase 1 being going into the com munities, meeting with the stakeholders to try to determine where the boundary of this review should be located, what area should we be reviewing and also to attempt to identif y issues that would come up. So that work has largely been completed.

There is a draft report that we are looking at currently and we will soon be releasing. Phase 2 is the work that Mr. Fontaine has been asked to do. We appointed people I think from quite a variety of organizations to this east side round table that is going to be chaired by Mr. Fontaine. To look at how that area might be used, there are several areas, I guess, several things that will come into play, but they will be part of the land use planning process. We will also be extending an inventory work progressively up the east side of Lake Winnipeg over the next five years. The member is absolutely right.

Some people call that part of Manitoba the last untouched area. The east side round table will be making recommendations about the future development on the east. Their terms of reference include the forestry sector. Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the minister has already heard from some-if he has not, he will-people, Manitobans who feel very strongly that that area generally should remain un touched. I might add that I do not share that view. I think that all parts of Manitoba should be looked at and looked at carefully. I applaud the minister's move in this direction and wish him every success.

It is a significant part of the province that deserves rather than having some development that comes to it helter-skelter and unplanned and perhaps inappropriate that it receive the kind of overall view that I would hope Mr. Fontaine and his round table can bring to that organization. But there will be undoubtedly some con troversial issues arise in whatever decisions are made. It will be interesting to pursue the progress that the Government makes in that part of the province. Pass. * (14 :50 ) Mr. Chair person: 4. Conservation Programs (

f) Fisheries

(1) Administ ration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 26,200- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $153 ,900- pass. 2. Fish Culture (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $66 1 ,300- pass.

15 76 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, I am attempting to pursue the specific area where there may or may not be the opportu nity to talk about this department's efforts to maintain and enhance our fisheries through their restocking program. Fish Culture is as good as any, so let me ask those questions at this time, and we will move on with this division. What is the program for the coming year? We have heard some indications that restricted budgets have impacted negatively on the hatcheries, for instance at Falcon Lake.

But is the overall long- standing, traditional program of restocking a num ber of Manitoba lakes being maintained, cut back or increased in this Budget? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, yes, we are maintaining fish hatchery operations at Grand Rapids, the Whiteshell and Swan Creek. In fact, this year there have been slight increases as to the amount of fry we are working with. Mr. Enos: Well, Mr.

Chairman, one of the unaccomplished hopes and ambitions that I had when I had the opportunity to maybe further them was the knowledge that, No. 1, the incidence of survival of fries, for instance, is pretty low, 1 or 2 percent, something like that. It grows dramatically if we can introduce our replacement stock into our lakes as, I would say as a cattleman, yearlings. I think the proper term for fishermen is fingerlings, or something like that, when they are considerably older.

Some jurisdictions have had remarkable success in the development of what they call rearing ponds in small bodies of water or adja cent bays to lakes, or wherever they can be done, that provides some minimal employment opportunity for Manitobans, and we have so many bodies of water in Manitoba that could lend themselves to it, to experimenting at least with that concept. As I say, I regret that I never did it.

I know I have read some inf ormation from the experts who say that, for instance, the survival rate, the success rate of stocking a lake with fingerlings, as compared to fries, jumped from about 1 or 2 percent to 25 and 28 percent. That is a pretty dramatic incr ease. I know the numbers sound impressive when you say that we dropped 10 000 fries into Lake Dauphin, walleye fries or something like that, but the recognition is, of course, we realize that only 1 percent or less survive. But if they are fingerl ings, that survival rate jumps very dramatically to 25, 26, 27 percent.

So I just pose that question to the minister or challenge his Fisheries department to give that some consideration. I always thought, also, that it would be an excellent little project for the department to co-manage with a First Nations group and with a Metis group somewhere that do several things. It brings them in the loop. It brings them to the realization, sharing some responsibility for the sustenance and the continuation of our resource.

In my opinion, a small community or something like that would quickly take ownership of a project like that, be rather proud of the fact they are supplying the rest of Manitoba with these fingerling fish, and what I would consider to be relatively minimal cost. Some feeding might be involved, some supervision, and then the work of netting them out at the appropriate time for distribution to other lakes and streams across the province. I hold that out to you, Mr.

Minist er, as something worthwhile to challenge your Fisheries staff with just when you think they are getting kind of complacent and taking life for granted, that they have a job forever and no minister is ever going to step on their toes. You challenge them with this every once in a while. * (1 5:0 0) Mr. Lathlin: Yes, in fact, I have asked that question of staf f in the past, in light of all of the representations I receive from different fishermen's groups. Some fishermen, not biologists, but fishermen out there on the lakes and rivers are totally convinced that stocking lakes and rivers is the way to go.

They want us to do more and more. I looked at the level of activity that was occurring in stocking, and I thought, well, if it is such a good idea, why are we not doing it more? Some of the advice I am getting so far is that stocking is not a suitable approach on all lakes and rivers. In some areas, unfortun ately, it is not

May 16 , 2002 LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 15 77 a good use of time and resources, but I also noticed that in some rearing ponds, I believe, there are projects under the Fisheries Enhancement Initiative of this nature . They are partnered with the local enhancement groups. I notice some of them when I drive by when I go out on the highway. I think, more and more, I am starting to be convinced that is probably not the best approach in all cases. The other question I have asked in the past is: What happens when we put fingerlings into other lakes and rivers? This is a layperson asking these questions.

People are always concerned about transf erring foreign species biota to other watersheds. I have asked that question as well, but really I do not have any inf orn1ation to pass on to the member with respect to that question. Mr. Enns: The minister raised the question, and I am fully aware there is always those concerns about the transference of possible unwelcome matter, pollutan ts, biota, from one body of water to another. On the other hand, there is also capable science that can help him and the department make the appropriate decisions.

My colleague would like to ask a few questions with respect to the transf erence of biota. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): In regard to the issue the minister put before the committee, and that is the concerns about the tran sfer of biota or foreign species and those kinds of things, we have heard over my tenure in this Legislature the current Government's tremendous concern expressed from time to time by the minister's Premier (Mr.

Doer) and by numerous members of his caucus from time to time about the eventuality of and the huge amounts of damages, I think are the terms they used, that could be a cause to our lakes and our rivers and our streams, our total fisheries industry. So I ask the minister whether he is aware that the-oh, what is the name of the U.S. person that did the sod-turning ceremony at Minot, I believe, on a pipeline that is going to be built from Garrison to Minot?

What was the name of the U.S. official that actually gave the order to proceed with the tran sfer of Garrison water, which will eventually end up in our Souris River and indeed our Red River and through the Assiniboine and into Lake Winnipeg, and indeed the Hudson Bay basin, and whether the minister has any real concern about the possible tran sfer of biota via the means of that pipeline and Garrison water now being allowed under this NDP administration into Manitoba? I truly wonder, Mr.

Minist er, whether this administration has really assessed the effects of what might happen if the treatment facility in that pipeline at any time should fail for a day or an hour even and what the dramatic effect might be to our lakes and rivers and streams and indeed our entire fishery industry in this province, which is one of the biggest and best freshwater fisheries that we have in Canada, I understa nd. Is the minister concerned about this possibility?

Has the Premier expressed, as he said when he first came back from his trip to Washington, that nothing would happen unless the province of Manitoba would sign off on an agreement to allow transf er of Garrison water across the Great Divide into Manitoba, and the dramat ic economic eff ect of the possibility of killing virtually every fish species that we have in our lakes and rivers and streams in Manitoba? Has this minister apprised his Premier of the dramatic economic impact that could have to the northern communiti es, and indeed the city of Winnipeg, and how we are going to be affected?

I think these are the terms used by the now Premier of Manitoba in his former role and I believe by the numer ous critics that have from time to time raised the matter when we talked about just the Rafferty-Alameda. An Honourable Member: We both have scars on our back from all that talk. Mr.

Jack Penner: So the scars that I specifically have on my back are still from time to time giving me pain at night some days, and I wake up with that shudder in my being when I think about the hugeness of the adverse impact that could be caused, and indeed, the devastation that could be caused in Manitoba when one really imagines the effect of what he and his colleagues raised in this Legislature. I think we need only go back to Question Period from time to time and/or Estimates during those 19 88 to '93

15 78 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 period of time, I think, when Rafferty-Alameda was built. I wonder if the minister could give us his view now of the concern that he still holds, I would believe. Mr. Lathlin: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I thank the member for his question, and I share his concern about the effects that the American water projects might have on Canadian waters. Let me tell him first, though, that when we got into Government in November and October of 19 99-[interjection} We were sworn in November 5. I remember that.

And lo and behold, I believe that was the first major issue that I as a rookie minister had to deal with, along with the Premier because we very quickly found out that the process that was well on its way, the Americans, a lot of work had gone on, only to find that the previous government had done absolutely nothing. {interjection} * (15:10 ) Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Let the minister make a statement and the others can make a response later. Okay? You will get your opportunity to speak. Mr. Lathlin: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairperson.

I would just like to finish that part of the response by saying we were indeed scrambling in November when we got into office. The Premier had to make an emergency trip to Washington. I accompanied the Premier at that time. We met with several agencies in Washington at the time through the Canadian embassy. So I would just like to set that record straight that it seemed to us that very little had been done by the previous government with respect to lobbying the American authorities to not allow these projects to go through, because they would have an adverse impact on Canadian waters.

The member was referring to somebody who was doing something recently. I believe the member was referring to the Secretary of the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation. Yes, we have as a government have launched a formal {interjection} The member was asking what we are doing. We have lost a formal legal appeal with the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation and we are presently determining whether or not to go to court in the U.S.

The Premier has repeatedly expressed his grave concern with the Prime Minister, the American ambassador to Canada, and so on and so forth, the Canadian foreign mmtster discussing or telling the Canadian authorities that if the Americans were allowed to proceed with some of their water projects that it would definitely have a negative impact on Canada. The project referred to, I believe it is called the Northwest Area Water Supply project. It has been approved in the United States but has not been signed off by Canada. This could result in a reference to the International Joint Commission.

We have talked about that quite regularly in the past. It has to comply with the Bound ary Waters Treaty. It is important to know that the only construction that has been started is an isolated

section of a pipeline that the member was referring to. No water will move out. I mean, the member asked a serious question. I am trying to respond to him. No water will move out of the Missouri River basin in the coming several years. Unf ortunately, Canada must carry forward our concerns with the American governments. We are insisting that they do so. We have lobbied the federal government time and time again. If there is ever court action, my understanding is that it will be launched by the federal government. Mr. Jack Penner: Thank you very much for that response, Mr. Minister. Mr.

Chairman, I think the person that I was hoping the minister would reference in my lapse of memory was the reference to the Secretary of State, Mr. Colin Powell, who gave the order in the Congress to go ahead with the construction of the pipeline from the Missouri River to Minot. The minister is correct. The project has started and they are laying pipe. What I was asking the minister is: Where is the agreement the Premier was going to have to sign off on before any of those kinds of projects were started in this province, and where is the

May 16 , 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 157 9 commitment our Premier made to Manitobans, assuring them nothing would happen, nothing would happen in regard to the transf er of biota out of the Missouri River basin into our freshwater lakes and streams? If our minister is now telling us this is no longer a concern and the only action our Premier has taken is written a letter expressing concern, then I think our Premier is probably in jeopardy of having misled the people of Manitoba.

I believe it is imperative that this Premier then go before the Legislative Assembly and apologize to the Legislative Assembly for having misled the people of Manitoba. I believe there has been far too much anx iety spread by the current Government in their role as opposition, when they were in opposition. They have put enough on the record. I am just shocked and amazed that the environmental community in this province, and indeed in our country, is not up in arms over this Government's laxness of response.

I believe the demonstration that was put on in the front foyer of this building, demonstrating what the project would be all about, was even allowed in this building. It was clearly an objective way by this province to try and allay the fears that might be expressed by those that might have questions on it. * (15 :20) My question to the minister is: What would the cost be of the breakdown of the treatment facility for even part of a day, and the transfer of biota and other foreign fish species into our lakes and rivers and streams?

Has he asked his department to do a complete analysis of the possibility of the damage that might be incurred, and what action is his Government con templating if that kind of thing should occur? Because we know, sir, for a fact, once the Secretary of State of the United States orders a project to proceed, it will proceed, and it will proceed to finalization. What has he asked of his department as to the calculations of the huge amount of damages that could be done to this province and its freshwater fishery? Mr. Lathlin : Manitoba really has no legal sign-of f.

I think the member knows the federal government and the federal government of Canada only can deal legally with the federal government in the United States. I know the member knows that. Our Government has compiled the most scientifically credible attack on the Northwest Area Water Supply project as part of the legal appeal process that is being pursued in co-operation with the federal government. The member and his leader met with the proponents of those North Dakota water projects.

Unf ortunately, those proponents used that to infer-and I watched the guy on TV myself and I was shocked and amazed that the representative used that photo op-that there was support for these water projects in Manitoba. We have not only quantified the possible damages that could be done to Manitoba resources but have made that inf orn1ation available to the decision makers in Ottawa, Washington and, as well, Minnesota, North Dakota and so forth.

I think this Government, contrary to what the member is suggesting, we have done I think more in the short two and a half years that we have been in government than what they had done. Like I said earlier, we came into govern ment in November of 19 99, and we had to scramble to try and catch up with the project that was proceeding at a fast pace. We were surprised that the former govern ment had not seen fit to travel to Washington and talk on behalf of Manitoba ns . We did that and we are still doing it today. Mr.

Jack Penner: Just to allay the fears of the minister, I want to tell the minister that the reference he makes to the so-called photo op that Mr. Joe Belford from the state of North Dakota and some of our caucus members had when he was here was in reference to Devils Lake and had nothing to do with the Missouri River water and the tran sfer of water out of the Missouri basin into Manitoba. That has always been, always been, a position that the previous administration took to Ottawa, to the Americans, that we would not agree to Missouri River water being transferred into the Hudson Bay basin.

That is clearly the message that we left with Mr. Belford when he

15 80 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 visited Manitoba. It is a similar discussion that Mr. Belford and I had only last week by phone, that we would not and never have been in support of tran sferring Missouri River water into Manitoba, as this NDP administration now is doing, and by rolling over and pretending that this is not happening is a disservice to the people of Manitoba.

I truly believe that if this Premier had really been serious about not allowing the transf er of biota across the great divide from the Missouri River system into our Hudson Bay system, something could have been done if he would have worked in con junction with Ottawa and the International Joint Commission. But, sir, I will say this to you, that you are one day late and one penny short on this one. I believe that it is truly- Mr. Chair person: Order, please. We cannot hear the member speak. Keep your conversation quiet or go out in the hallway. Thank you. Mr. Jack Penner: So, Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest through you to the minister that if he would truly take his responsibilities seriously and basically cause protection to happen to all those northern communities that could be dramatically affected by the transf er of biota and foreign fish species into Lake Manitoba and beyond, into our Churchill River system, into our Hay River system, into virtually all the waters in Manitoba and, indeed, through that up the Sask atchewan River into Saskatchewan and indeed Alberta.

I mean, can we not see the huge damages that could occur by this Government's inaction to try and avert that kind of massive disaster that we see coming? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if the member might do us a favour next time he talks to his friend Joe, to ask him if Joe Belford is being paid by the Garrison Diversion Con servancy District. Mr. Chairperson, the member also makes the assertion that we were a day too late. I do not know where the member is coming from on this issue because the Northwest Area Water Supply project was authorized by the U.S.

Congress before we took office in November of 19 99. [interjection} What did the previous government do to prevent that? This is what I was trying to tell the member, that when we came into government, we literally had to scramble to get inf ormation together, to get staff together and travel to Ottawa and present our case because the previous government had done absolutely nothing. Mr. Enos: Mr.

Chairman, I have tried to be reasonable and fair with the minister, but I want to assure the honourable minister that I have en joyed Washington, not once, not twice, but three times-a couple of times in cherry blossom time. It is a lovely city to visit at that time of the year for no other reason than the reason that we are talking about. So again, let us deal with matters reasonably credible. For the minist er to say that previous administ rations, previous staf f members, previ ous ministers showed no concern with respect to the Garrison is simply not factual.

The Garrison was a major concern in the late sixties and early seventies when the first physical portions of Lake Garrison was established in the early sixties before I came into office; Lake Garrison was established for the express purpose of being able to provide substantial irrigation waters to various parts of the northeastern parts of the State of North Dakota, which inevitably meant transferring Missouri River basin water into the Hudson Bay. So the issue that we are just discussing for a little while now has been around for a long time. I recall being involved with it in 19 69.

I can remember being involved with it when there was another New Democratic Party government resource minister by the name of AI Mackling who assembled an all-party group from not only the Manitoba Legislature, but included such notable representatives of the federal govern ment as Mr. Lloyd Axworthy and Senator, then Premier, Duff Roblin to visit and lobby extensively with U.S. senators in the American Congress. * (1 5: 30) Then again, Mr. Chairman, I remember a further visit when the activity in the Garrison the Garrison has been a project that has been

May 16 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 15 81 lying there for the last 50 years and it will continue to be a source of concern for us from time to time, as different supporters come up, as it gains support from time to time, any time when the American Congress and the State of North Dakota are successful in getting the American Congress to vote another $200-million or $240-million appropriation for further devel opment of the overall Garrison project. We have a reason to be concerned and we will be active on it.

When we were in government-and this is a covenant-we maintained a legal person in Washington on Manitoba's behalf. I happen to agree with the minister that this, in essence, is a problem about which we have to rely on our federal government to be the protector of our rights. States deal federally with each other. It is our people, our Canadian ambassador in Wash ington, our Minister responsible for Foreign Affairs that have to present our case with their counter parts in the American system of govern ment.

We, quite frank ly, do ourselves, while it is great for some local politics, and that is quite frankly what I charge the current Premier with. My colleague alluded to it. He made a lot of fine headlines about how he, Gary Doer, was going to stop American water from coming across this border. Well, in the final anal ysis, the minister just contr adicted his own Premier because Gary Doer in Manitoba is not constitutionally empowered to do-l will not use that phrase that staff thought was, you know- Mr. Chair person : Order, please. You cannot refer to members by their name.

Refer to them by the constituency or portfolio. Member for Emerson. Mr. Enns: I would ask the Chairman to refer to me by my appropriate constituency. Mr. Chair person : The Member for Lakeside, excuse me. Mr. Enns: Now we are even. So I withdraw that reference to the Premier by name and refer to him as the member from Concordia or, more appropriately, First Minist er or Premier.

It was he that was making all kinds of grandstanding positions to Manitobans about how-not on his watch was there going to be any transgression with respect to the longstanding positions taken by previous Conse rvative gov enm 1ents, previous New Democratic Party governments, on the issue that we are talking about. Let us be straight about that. This is not a new issue and governments past and present are doing their best to ensure that Manitoba's interests are indeed safeguarded.

I want to specifically ask the minister: Does Manitoba maintain a legal office, a lawyer in Washington acting on this brief for us on a continuous basis? If so, at what cost? Mr. Lathlin: Let me respond to the member this way. This is also a problem on which we all have to be on the same side as Manitoba because the Americans will use this to their advantage . Again, I want to tell the member that no Missouri water is crossing our border now nor will it cross our border in the near future.

I want to emphasize again that Manitoba does not have the legal position or the capacity to deal with the United States federal government, but we will use every legal means to stop those projects. With respect to the member's question as to whether we have an office or have somebody in Washington doing the legal work for us, yes. We have somebody there and the costs, of course, depend on work that we assign to this individual. It is not a fixed cost. Mr.

Jack Penner: I appreciate the response from the minister, but I am concerned about his obvious will, or lack of will, to make a much stronger case for North Dakota not to tran sfer this Missouri basin water into Manitoba. I want to assure the minister that our Government has never, during my tenure in office or during my presence in this Legislature, once conceded to the fact that we would accept any transf er of water from the Missouri River basin. It is very clear that when Mr.

Colin Powell, Se cretary of State for the American government, gave the okay to proceed with this project, they must have been satisfied that they were on legal ground to be able to transfer water. I would suspect that Manitoba must have backed off enough and was assured, as I think the Premier

158 2 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 said, and that the Premier stated that the water would be treated and, therefore, might not cause the kind of concern it had before. That really concerns me because if, in fact, there is one breakdown of that treatment plant, the water will keep flowing. It will not be stopped. That means that you will get raw, untreated water into our lakes and river systems. I do not know how much water it would take, whether it would take a gallon or ten gallons or a thousand or a hundred thousand. I have no idea.

But I would like to know from this minister, I would like to know from this department whether they have done any calculations on the cost of a disaster occurring, the disaster being the transf er of biota and fish species into our lakes and rivers and streams and what the effect, in fact, might be and what the cost-it would be impossible to clean up, I believe-to our communities, especially those in northern Manitoba, would be if this did in fact occur. Have you done any estimates of the cost of a disaster of that kind? * (15: 40) Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairperson, I want to again emphasize to the member that our Premier (Mr. Doer) has not backed off of anyt hing. In fact, when we started out some two and a half years ago, after about a year I remember saying to the Premier that he had so much patience in dealing with the American authorities, going from one agency to another representing the interests of Manitobans. At the time it seemed to me that this task that he was faced with was so huge, enormous, given the political atmosphere that was there in Washington.

In my humble opinion and from my observations I do not think the Premier has backed off of anything at all. In fact, he is saying exactly what we have said. With strong technical studies through the United States, the damage estimates, his leader has those numbers in the briefing material that was supplied to him as a member of the all-party Garrison committee. So they have the numbers there. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Chairman, if the numbers are there, could the minister then relate to this committee what those numbers are? Mr. Lathlin: I would suggest to the member to consult with his leader. Mr.

Jack Penner: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am a bit confused here. I thought the responsibilities of these committees were to give us an opportunity to question the minister and ask for inf ormation, and, if that inf ormation is available, would he be able to provide it to this committee? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I will make a commitment to the member that I will provide those numbers at the earliest opportunity. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate that from the minister. We look forward to taking a look at those figures. We will then make an assessment of them.

However, I want to go back to the minister's reference to Mr. Belford's visit to Manitoba a short while ago. I just want to say to the minister that never in my life have I denied a person an audience and I do not believe my caucus has or will deny a person an audience, or a delegation from our American side of the border, to discuss and have a dialogue on matters on both sides of the border. I want to indicate to the minister that at no time did I discuss with Mr. Belford the possibility of Garrison water coming into Manitoba, because I made it very clear to Mr. Belford that that was not acceptable.

We did, however, discuss Devils Lake. We also did discuss the matter of Devils Lake always having been within the Hudson Bay watershed district. He knew that, and I knew that. At no time did Mr. Belford and I discuss the possibility of Garrison water being transf erred to Devils Lake and through Devils Lake into the Red River system. That was not in our discussion, nor was it part of any debate or discussion that Mr. Belford and I have had. If Mr. Belford would ask for another audience with myself or some of my colleagues on Devils Lake, or for that matter any other, I would not deny him an audience.

That is not the way I deal with matters, and I believe that is not the way my colleagues would deal with the water. I believe, as I think the minister believes, that the way to deal with matters is to put them on the table and have the debates and discussions on them, and gain all the inf ormation and knowledge that we can from both sides of the issues that we can at least have an intellig ent, knowledgeable dialogue. Whether we agree or

May 16 , 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 15 83 disagree is totally immaterial, but at least we could have the dialogue and the courtesy of having those discussions with our American friends. They could voice their concerns; we could voice our concerns. I think under those tenns , Mr. Belford came to Manitoba and probably will come to Manitoba again. I certainly have no aversion meeting with my North Dakota friends at any time. I met less than two months ago with the former governor, Mr. Sinner, on various other matters, not dealing so much with water issues, and will do so again.

I met the day before yesterday for two and a half hours with a fellow by the name of Mr. Dick Gross, who is the facilitator of the IFMI group, participants of which are Manitobans, North Dakotans, South Dakotans and Minnesotans, largely formed to deal with matters of flooding in the Red River basin. We are going to be participants in a forum in Minneapolis on the 23rd and 24th to deal with exactly those kinds of issues. We will talk about many other things at that forum, including han nonization of various matters, including probably water policies, if that be their decision to enter into that debate.

Certainly, I would be amenable to having a very broad range of discussions and debates with my friends to the south because that is the only way that I believe that we can truly come to an understanding of each other's concerns and address those concerns in a meaningful, peaceful manner. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair * (15 :50) Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I want to say to the member, yes, you know, I commend him for his relationship with our neighbours down south. I just want to also ask him: I wonder if he is aware that Mr. Belford has always promoted an inlet to Devils Lake.

I mean, that is one of the reasons he is being paid by the Garrison Diversion Conservancy District to do that very thing, promote an inlet to Devils Lake. An inlet, if it were to be built, would bring water from the Missouri River into Devils Lake. So the legislator's forum that he talks about is taking place only because it is being promoted and funded by the Government of Manitoba under an agreement between the Premier and the governors of North Dakota and Minnesota. It is a good forum. He is absolutely right. That is where many of these issues can be discussed, and hopefully lead to some resolution. Mr.

Jack Penner: I think the minister would have been correct a number of years ago. I believe the discussions that I have had with a number of people from North Dakota, including the former Governor Sinner, that at one time I think that they were looking at an inlet into Devils Lake to enhance Devils Lake viability. However, I think they have built numerous other projects that have diverted water into Devils Lake, and I think they have been more than successful in doing that. I think it has caused them a bit of consternation and is still causing consternation.

I think, therefore, they are now pursuing the option of alleviating some of the flooding threats in Devils Lake. I think there are currently discussions that I have had with the Army Corps of Engineers in meetings I have attended in North Dakota that were held by the Army Corps of Engineers, an indication that the engineering is proceeding and the planning is proceeding to build an outlet out of Devils Lake which would flow Devils Lake water into the Sheyenne River and then hence on into-and there is another option being explored.

I believe they are talking about building a 22-mile aqueduct that is also being explored by North Dakota and through the Army Corps of Engineers, the viability of which I think has not yet been totally assessed, although there have been some comments made on those two projects and/or also the viability.

I do not believe any final decisions on those have been made, although the minister should note that again in that instance, as well, there have been, to the best of my understanding, some of the equipment has already been ordered and probably might be on-site to accommodate some of the actions that they are contemplating on the outlet at Devils Lake. I am quite aware and being kept abreast of where they are proceeding and how they are

15 84 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 proceeding, and I believe that it is-quite fran kly, the Devils Lake issue, just the Devils Lake water issue is not a great concern to me personally. It never has been and I do not think will be. The salinity in the lake, it depends on which basin you would take the water from, and tests that have been done by the Arn1y Corps of Engineers and others would indicate there is significant difference from one part of the Devils Lake basin to the other.

Even if they did flow water into the Red River, I think it would give Fargo, North Dakota, a greater concern and people along the Sheyenne River a greater concern than it might us. I believe there is an opportunity. I believe there is a real opportunity to make some advancements in the whole matter of water storage and basin storage, in the prevention of flooding and indeed a lasting water supply for the Red River Valley, and indeed Manitoba's portion of the Red River Valley. As you know, Mr.

Minist er, the communities in the Red River Valley now are tied basically to two treatment plants, one at Letellier, one at Morris, and they deliver water to virtually all the communities now in the valley and are totally dependent on the Red River for water. I remember well when I was first elected, a grass-green minister, and some of the staf f that sits here today were staf f members in the department that I became a minister of. I felt rather insignifi cant in that department because they were the knowledgeable people. They brought the knowledge to the minister's of fice.

It gave me a great deal of comfort that I could bring the issuesfthat we had to deal forward in a manner that were professionally dealt with. I have always held that department and their staff in very high regard. They taught me an awful lot. I learned a lot. I made a few mistakes, and they helped me resolve those mistakes and I truly appreciate that.

I would say to the minister that if we entered into negotiations and discussions with North Dakota of the possibility of building the Pembina dams on the Pembina River, building two dams to be allowed to store water with virtually no salinity in it; and if they should build Devils Lake, which I am certain they will at one point in time or another, that we then have the ability to mthgate the salinity of the water coming down the Red River into Manitoba to the point where it would be an acceptable water supply for us. That would do two things.

It would actually give us security of water supply in the province of Manitoba. The Pembina River and those two dams would be a tremendous relief, if they were built, to the insecurity that the communiti es in the Red River Valley now have, because if this drought that we are experiencing in the valley now continues, I suspect we might be in a similar situation that we were in 19 88 when we actually asked North Dakota and Minnesota to flow some water down the Red River, that the river would actually remain a viable source of water for us. We might be in a similar type of situation. For that reason, Mr.

Minister, I think it is extremely important that we remain and hold a very open dialogue. That is why I am a great supporter of the IFMI process, hold an open dialogue with our friends to the south because we might need them and they might need us from time to time. I believe it is important that we probably enter into discussions with our friends to the south to develop policies of a similar nature in all four of those jurisdictions. That is why I am very interested in moving on the ability for us to develop water policies in the entire valley region that would be amena ble to all of us.

I think it is time that we set aside some of our political biases and had meaningful discussions in that manner with our friends to the south, because I think we could both benefit greatly from coming to some terms and agreement on some of these matters. That would not include the tran sfer of biota through any outlets of the Garrison system into the Hudson Bay system. I think we could have that discussion very openly with them now. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, let me say to the member that we will send him the most current inf ormation that we have on this.

The long-term plan is still for an inlet as well as an outlet. That is what Mr. Belford is promoting. I have been at meetings with Mr. Belford myself. With respect to the outlet, again, I will say that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency had recom mended against such an outlet.

May 16 , 2002 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 15 85 I think also the member made reference to the Pembina River dams. Well, those dams should stand on their own. They could benefit North Dakota as well as Manitoba. We do not believe we should tie any Pembina River work to Devils Lake. We have tried to have these more friendly discussions on water issues. Unfortunately, we have had these discussions thrown back at us saying that we agreed to Garrison water projects when we do not agree. * (1 6:00) Mr. Jack Penner: I accept what the mtmster says. If he has had discussions with Mr.

Belford that still include the inlet to Devils Lake from Garrison, I accept that, but that is certainly not the message that Mr. Belford has brought to my table, or, that I know of, my colleague's table. His only discussion that we have had with him is the Devils Lake outlet and how that can be done. It has been very clear, our position has been very clear, that we will wait for the final analysis by the Army Corps of Engineers. The interim report indicated that they did not think it was viable to build the outlet in the manner that was prescribed by the direction they had been given.

They believed that the salinity would be such that it would be damaging to Manitoba. I have a copy of that report. I have read it. We accept that. We accept the tem1s under which the Army Corps of Engineers has done those studies. It is also important to note that they are, however, doing further studies on this matter and that the final report has not yet been tabled, to my knowledge has not been tabled. The Army Corps of Engineers has indicated to me that, as soon as they do have that study and release it, we will get copies of it.

Similarly, the discussions that I have had with people from North Dakota, other than Mr. Belford, have given us the same assurance that no mitigative action of the flooding or the possible flooding of Devils Lake and the damage that might occur if that lake ever did break out is not contemp lated until they have a final assessment by the Army Corps of Engineers. So I just want to make that very clear, that that is the understanding that I have. But at the same time, I want to say to the minister I want to also make it very clear that at no time has Mr.

Belford brought the discussion of an inlet out of Garrison into Devils Lake to our table for discussion. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the Member for Emerson is an honourable member, so I believe what he says. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question in relationship to Fisheries which we are dealing with in the Estimates at the moment deals, first of all, with the situation in Lake Winnipegosis, one of the ma jor lakes in the province and one where there have been concerns about the fishery for some time.

I wonder if the minister could give us an update of the situation on Lake Winnipegosis and what is being done with regard to management of the fishery there. Mr. Lathlin: I agree with the member. The Lake Winnipegosis commercial fishery has not been in the best of health for quite some time now. The department is currently consi dering implementing a broad stakeholder board to advise on the management of Lake Winni pegosis to rehabilitate the walleye population.

When we go ahead with this advisory board, once it has been appointed, it will try to address five main areas, and that is the harvest reduction, spring spawning protection, cormorant contr ol, the walleye stocking and the habitat enhance ment protection. An advisory board would also facilitate the fishery management decisions on such con tentious issues as winter perch fishing, spring mullet fishing as well as walleye harvest reductions. So that is where we are at on Lake Winnip egosis. Mr.

Gerrard: I would just explore that a little bit further and ask the minister if he can give us some up-to-date information on what was the walleye production in Lake Winnipegosis last year, and, secondly, some information on what might be the target levels that he thinks we should look to in the optimum management of the Lake Winnipegosis fishery.

15 86 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 Mr. Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that recently the walleye production increased in 19 96-97 from 26 500 kilograms to, in 19 99- 2000, 252 000 kilograms. That is primarily from a strong 19 95 year class and smaller 19 96 year class. This is only half of what a rehabilitated fishery is expected to produce. The summer fishery continues with 32 licensed fishermen holding 11 6 quota entitle ments of some 2300 kilograms each.

The winter fishery operates with a maximum of 17 4 licences, and winter production is traditionally mullets, winter perch, seasons of low production and participation. The Pine Creek First Nation recently approached the department with an offer to facilitate development of a restructured manage ment process. So we are looking at setting up a management advisory report right now.

I think if we were to bring Lake Winnipegosis up, we would not be having the problems we had at Lake Dauphin, Lake of the Prairies, because I understand that is where these people normally went for domestic fishing and so on and so forth. When that fish disappeared in Lake Win nipegosis, they started to look for other areas where they could fish.

I think the other issue is, when I was Minis ter of Conservation the first couple of weeks there, of course, everybody wants to meet with the new minister and present their issues, and the new minister eagerly wants to meet with everybody, because there are so many issues to deal with. I talked to the fishermen over and over again, as I met with each group.

One day a group will come in and they want the department to change rules, whether it is to extend the line, and maybe the next day another group will come in and they will ask me to increase the mesh size, and on the third day somebody else comes in and they want me to increase the quota or extend the season. On and on it goes. * (16:10 ) So I was sitting there thinking no wonder we have a problem, because there does not seem to be any order. At least it appeared to me as a layperson there did not seem to be any order as to how these fishermen can go about doing their work.

We have set up the Aboriginal Resource Council, for example, and they have done some good work so far in trying to deal with some of these issues and may come to the department with recommendations as to how we can try to be consistent in the way we manage the fisheries of Manitoba. That work is continuing. Mr. Gerrard: I would ask the minister also for an update on the situation on Lake Manitoba. As the minister himself well knows, governments have been, from time to time-the Government to which the minister belongs is no exception concerned about the inter-basin tran sfers of water.

Of course, one of the most signifi cant basin- to-basin transf ers of water was from the Assiniboine River basin to the Fairford-Dauphin River basin through the Assiniboine Diversion. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. We have difficulty hearing. Maybe it is just the mike. I do not know. Mr. Gerrard: I ask the minister about the situation and what is being done with relation to Lake Manitoba. Of course, one of the concerns of Government has been the basin-to-basin transf er of water.

One of the most significa nt that has occurred historically in Manitoba is from the Assin iboine River basin to the Fairford-Dauphin river system through the Assiniboine Diversion. It is incumbent upon us as a province to know the results of such basin-to-basin or sub-basin to sub-basin, de pending on which way you look at it, transfers of water and the impact on the fishery. I would like the minister to give us an update on what is happening in terms of better understanding the impact of the Assiniboine Diversion and the water going from one watershed to another.

What is happening with the fishery in Lake Manitoba? Mr. Lathlin : Some of the groups I mentioned earlier, fishermen's groups that I have met over the course of two and a half years, but more recently some of the groups that I have been meeting, have expressed that same concern that we may be transf erring some foreign matter into Lake Manitoba. They are of the opinion, quite a firm opinion by the way, that it has negatively impacted the fishery in Lake Manitoba. The

May 16 , 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 87 concern that they have consistently raised has to do with carp going into Lake Manitoba. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, can you tell me whether or not there have been or are scientific studies of the effects of the Assiniboine River diversion on fisheries in Lake Manitoba? Mr. Lathlin : I can indicate to the member that as far as I know there have not been any so far. Mr. Gerrard: I understand the minister to say that there have not been any so far. Is the minister going to undertake such studies or make sure that such studies are undertaken or funded? Mr.

Lathlin : Yes, I can indicate to the member that one of the things we have started doing is to look at the Lake Manitoba water levels. Again, some fishermen attribute the fluctuating levels, the Portage diversion, the lake levels, they attribute all those things to the poor fishery in Lake Manitoba. We have also recently been talking to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Recently they have brought resources to Manitoba, 40 positions in Manitoba, and we are trying to interest them in coming along with us so that we can use some of their resources in fishery research on Lake Manitoba. Mr.

Gerrard: Yes, let me extend this by asking you essentially the same question I asked about Lake Winnipeg osis. Can you give us today the most recent production of walleye for Lake Manitoba and can the minister indicate what might be a target level for an optimally functioning lake, optimally managed lake? Mr. Lath lin: Okay. I can indicate to the member that the Lake Manitoba commercial yields, and these are in kilograms, for walleye, for example: in 19 99, there was 304 000 kilograms; in the year 2000, there were 413 000; and in 2001, it has gone down to 250 000 kilograms.

That is the main, that is the species that commercial fishermen go after primarily. With respect to sauger: in 19 99, 62 700; the year 2000, 28 000. I am going to round these off. In 200 1, it had gone down to 15 000. Those are just walleye and sauger. * (1 6:20) Mr. Gerrard: I would like to thank the minister for that inf ormation, and I would ask the minister whether he or the department have some sort of target range that they would expect the well-managed fishery on Lake Manitoba to be producing on an annual basis for walleye. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, unfortunately, I apologize to the member.

I do not have that inf ormation right here, but I know we have it in other documents. Perhaps I can suggest to the member that, at the earliest opportunity, I can make that inf ormation available. Mr. Gerrard: That indeed would be very helpful, and I thank the minister for that. Let me move on to another area of discussion, one that has been sort of highlighted recently.

This is allocation of lakes for fishing, and it is my understanding that there is an individual, Marc Collette, who has some con cerns about how things have gone in the last number of years and that the department has undertaken to try and resolve this with a mediation process. Is that correct? Mr. Lathlin: Yes, a mediation process had been initiated. So now we are waiting for the report to come to our office, and as soon as we get the report, I guess we can make a decision one way or the other. Mr.

Gerrard: It is my understanding what the department has indicated to this individual is that they would require that the individual not have any contact with the media or have any demonst ration on the grounds of the Legislature if there is to be mediation. Is that the minister's understanding also? Mr. Lathlin: As the member is probably aware, the individual that he is talking about is currently, at least I saw him there this morning . when I came to work, on the Legislative grounds. It is my understanding, Mr.

Chairperson, that staff did ask that he not demonstrate during the time that this mediation process was being carried out. Apparently, he had agreed to that condition or to that request. So now he is back to demonstrating. Hopefully,

15 88 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 when we get the mediator's report, we can make the appropriate decision. Mr. Gerrard: I just want to clarify: Is it the nonnal process that the department would make these sorts of stipulations in mediation cases of this sort? Mr. Lathlin : Mr.

Chairperson, it is not a normal practice, but I understand also that when we were dealing with the people from Virden, we had referred the dispute, or the issue, to the Clean Environment Commission, and those people were also, I believe, asked not to report to the media as to the discussions that were being held during the mediation process. I think that is being done because when you set up a mediation process, it is not particularly helpf ul if one party goes out and talks about it in public. It tends to, I think, impede the process.

Otherwise, what could result in dispute resolution is that sometimes it gets lost when people start talking about it in the public. Mr. Gerrard: Just to follow that up. It is my understanding that in this case the individual concerned was not at all happy about these clauses and, in fact, was not willing to have the mediation if that was what was required. I would ask the minister whether the minist er would continue some sort of mediation process, or what will happen under these circumstances? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I can respond to the member this way. I have reviewed the file.

I have had discussions with staff and it would seem to me that, thus far, our staff have been doing the proper thing. In fact, a mediation process was recommended and so now I am waiting for the mediator to give me a report so that we can make the next move. Mr. Gerrard: I would like to move on to another area of Fisheries. It is my understanding, from studies that have been done at the experimental lakes area, for example, that one of the big concerns is the level of phosphorus in lakes, because of the association of phosphorus with things like algal blooms.

There are, I think, cooperative studies undergoing, supported in part by the Department of Cons ervation and perhaps by the federal Department of Fisheries, in looking at Lake Winnipeg in terms of phosphorus levels. I wonder if the minister could provide us an update on the situation with regard to phosphorus and algal blooms on Lake Winnipeg. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, before I answer that question, I wonder if I can ask for a short five-minute break? Mr. Cha irperson: Is it the will of the committee to have a five-minute break? {Agreed} The committee recessed at 4:30p .m. The committee resumed at 4:42p.m.

Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please. I believe the minister had the floor. Mr. Lathlin : Mr. Chairperson, I can indicate to the member that we are participating in a research consortium on Lake Winnipeg for the third year in a row. Research is tending to indicate that phosphorus may not be the limiting or the contro lling factor for vitrification in the south basin of Lake Winnipeg. It seems to indicate that it is probably nitrogen. We have completed an analysis of 30 years of data on nutrients in rivers and lakes in Manitoba and we have a report that we can provide the member.

It does show that on some water bodies, levels are going up, in others it seems to be going down, and yet in others, the nutrient levels are stable. In general terms, though, nutrient levels in southern Manitoba are going up. It is interesting to note that our water quality guideline for phosphorus has succeeded 10 0 percent of the time at the Saskatchewan border and that levels have been stable over the last 30 years. The research on Lake Winnipeg involves several partners including the federal Depart ment of Fisheries and Oceans, the University of Manitoba and others.

It uses the old coast guard cutter that became available when Canada withdrew the Coast Guard services from Lake Winnipeg, whenever it was, several years ago. That is what is happening with respect to the research on Lake Winnipeg. Mr. Gerrard: Can you give us more details on the south basin, what the trends are for

May 16 , 2002 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 89 phosphorous and nitrogen in the south basin, for example? Mr. Lathlin: Again, I want to apologize to the member. I just do not have that level of detail of the inf on nation that he is seeking, but I know we have it in other papers. I want to comment to him that I will make those available. Mr. Gerrard: I would just further explore the comments of the minister that the results indicate that it seems to be nitrogen and not phosphorous which is the critical limiting component in the south basin.

What is the basis or what is the evidence for saying that it is the nitrogen which is causing the problem eutrophication in the south basin of Lake Winnipeg? * (1 6:50) Mr. Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that the study, the inf ormation that we have, is not so far conclusive, but it is based on research results that have been determined to date. The complicating factor, I understand, is the size of the lake. Results vary from place to place apparently. I believe the reports we will be providing to the member will detail the methods that the scientists are using in those studies. Mr.

Gerrard: Just to sort of complete the questioning on Lake Winnipeg, perhaps the minister can provide me the recent walleye production on Lake Winnipeg and also, if possible, the sort of target levels of production that the management plans are trying to achieve. Mr. Lathlin: have that inf ormation somewhere, but in the interests of time perhaps I can promise the member we will give him the detailed inf ormation with respect to the walleye numbers . Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I want to begin with a few questions as relates to an area that I have some fairly deep concern about.

That is the whole area of fish stocks in some of our sporting lakes. Specifically my interest lies in the west side of the province where we have some small and medium-size sport fishing lakes which have been threatened by the fact that First Nations people have used nets on the lakes to take fish far in excess of what one might reasonably consider to be sustenance levels of take. I know that the treaty does allow for those kinds of activities but to a reasona ble level.

I have talked to a lot of Aboriginal or First Nations people who have told me quite directly that they do not support that kind of activity, and, certainly, if it can be stopped, they would applaud the stopping of that because they believe that, as one individual put it to me just a week ago, he said, if I catch three fish a day, I can feed my family. I do not need to catch 300 fish a day to feed my family. Mr.

Chair, my understanding also is that the minister has now agreed or is working on a memorandum of understanding for the licensing and management of the resource on these sport fishing lakes, I guess with the West Region Tribal Council I believe it is, and I would just like the minister, if he would for my sake, perhaps elaborate on exactly the status of his discussions or any agreements or agreements in waiting that he has embarked on with respect to trying to address the issue of the resource on the sport fishing lakes. Mr. Cha irperson: Excuse me.

We are now on Fish Culture and the question about sport and commercial fishing management. Is it okay if we skip ahead at the will of the committee? Is that the will of the committee, to skip ahead for a moment? [Agreed} Mr. Lathlin: Well, Mr. Chairperson, it is fortunate that the member was not present when we went through this in what I thought was quite a detailed response from me.

Without wanting to be facetious, one of the things I can suggest to the member is maybe review Hansard for one thing, but I also want to indicate to him that just from the way he is asking the question, again I am not trying to be negative here, but right now the discussions that we have had so far with the West Region Tribal Council is that we have signed a memorandum of understan ding, and that memorandum of understanding will result in a framework that will set the parameters of negotiations. Now, all kinds of items have been thrown around in these discussions, and I mentioned

15 90 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2002 some of them here the other day. Nothing has been completed. There has been no agreement made yet with respect to anything that can be implemented. Discussions are ongoing. Hope fully, those discussions will be completed so and so, that we can get into the next phase of the negotiations that are going on. Like the other day, I gave an example of what could be contained in these agreements.

I gave the example because we had done it or it was being contemplated at OCN with the Fisheries people there in The Pas, and that is to devolve that responsibility, although the ultimate responsibility of Fisheries lies with the provin cial government.

However, you know, if negotiations lead to the devolution of some respons ibilities to the sponsoring agencies, in this case it is the West Region Tribal Counc il, there could be a scenario where the tribal council will issue those pern1its or licences for domestic fishing just so that they can track the data that is needed for determining fish stocks and so forth. So that is one, very briefly, example of what coul

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-33b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 33b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7bb356e3eecba225a565b2bee7ac9a9043173bfb

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