Proceedings of the House of Assembly During the Third Session of the Thirty-First General Assembly of Newfoundland 1959 Speaker: Hon. J. R. Courage Volume II

Proceedings of the House of Assembly During the Third Session of the Thirty-First General Assembly of Newfoundland Monday, May 11, 1959 (Afternoon Session) The house met at three o'clock. Mr. Speaker in the Chair: PRESENTING PETITIONS: Hon. W.J. Keough (Minister of Mines and Resources): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to pre­ sent a petition on behalf of the some hundred odd residents of the community of Jefferies in the District of St. George's. The petition asks that the highway through the settlement be rebuilt and that the river road along the bank of Crabb's River be rebuilt. Ten years ago, Mr.

Speaker, anybody who knew the area west of St. George's and in­ cluding the Codroy Valley knew it required two things more than anything else, roads and power. During the past decade a great deal has been done about roads in SL George's District. I remember back 10 years ago you could drive fro!" Stephemille Crossing to St. George's but always kept a shovel in the trunk of the car because you knew you had to dig yourself out of the sand. At St. George's you took the road, six or seven miles to Robinson's, then to Doyles where there was a bit of a road system in Codroy Valley.

Now you can drive from Howards to Red Rock and to every settle- ment in the district, with three exceptions, I believe. Now I do hope it will be possible to deal adequately with the power situation, be­ cause if that cannot be done I would not be at all surprised to see some of the farmers west of St. George's give up farming be­ cause the competitive position is so im­ paired through lack of electrical power. As a matter of fact, the Codroy Valley is losing its population through lack of power. Rather than building it up there is an exodus of young people from the Valley.

During the last few years they have, unfortunately, not only left the valley but the Province. They are leaving the area because they are no longer prepared to live with the kerosene lamp and put up with a low standard of living and the second-class economy which goes along with the kerosene lamp. How­ ever, returning to this petition, while a lot has been done in St. George's District, I know a great deal more can be done. I beg to lay this petition on the table of the House, for referral to the Department to which it relates. On motion, petition received. Hon. J. R. Smallwood (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I had hoped to make a statement today on the subject raised and the ques­ tions asked by the Member for St. John's Centre, but I fear I ,vill not be in a position to do it until later this week, I think probably

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 423 Wednesday. I won't be here tomorrow but hope to be here on Wednesday. But then I will have returned from Halifax in time to be here for Wednesday's sitting, and I hope then to be able to make this statemenL If I should miss Wednesday's sitting because of the poor plane connections or flying weather than certainly I will make it on Thursday. I am waiting for some statistics, some facts, before giving the statement. ORDERS OF THE DAY LEGISLATION Second Reading of a bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Crown Ltnds ( Mines and Quarries) Act". Hon. W.j.

Keough (Minister of Mines and Resources): Mr. Speaker, the debate on Second Reading of this Bill has concluded except for the fact that, in summing up, I asked for an adjournrrit::nt in order to get information on the point raised by the Leader of the Opposition. I had explained that the principle of the Bill was briefly -as the law stands now a person staking a min­ ing claim can keep the surface rights tied up over a considerable area, if the claim is large enough, for as long as he can finance that claim. Now that is not a very desirable thing to have happen.

The purpose of this Bill is to provide that, for the future, where a per­ son stakes a mining claim and thereby ac­ quires right to the minerals in the property, when it reaches the stage where he is able to get a mining lease he is entitled to obtain as much of the surface as is reasonable to eria­ ble him to conduct the mining operation. The hon.

Leader of the Opposition raised the point that that was alright as far as it went, but in section (3), if a person could get a mining lease and could hold it for 50 years upon the payment of the mere sum of $5 it would not be much of a deterrent to a per­ son tying up minerals at the moment. He did not know what the position was. But the law provides, where a person gets a mining lease he has to begin producing in that area within two years, and if he does not the minister has the necessary authority to can­ cel his mining lease. Perhaps that deals ade­ quately with th.e point raised by the hon.

Leader of the Opposition - if so, we might proceed with Second Reading. Mr. Speaker: Has the Hon. Leader of the Opposition spoken to this motion? Hon. M. M. Hollett (Leader of the Opposi­ tion): I think I asked a question. I am not sure if I spoke - I want to say a word. Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Leader has not spoken, he may do so. Mr. Hollett: I will take it for granted I have not. Agreed: Mr. Hollett: It is provided here in the Bill that the leasee will take two years - within two years he must commence mining, active mining.

And it goes on to say what is to be expended on exploration and development -an amount of not less than the sumof$10 for every acre. Well it is not very difficult for a big _mming corporation to spend $10 an acre in order to hold the lease. A corpora­ tion like Pick.and-Mathers, if you like, is given a mining )ease over 100 acres or 200 as the case may be, and all they have to do is that, and there may be lots of minerals there hut many things may prevent them opening up and developing the mine.

In order to hold the lease all they have to do is spend $10 per, acre each year thereafter and _can hold the lease then for quite a long period. Then in the sub~section it states that after the first of January, following the expira­ tion of the period of two years, they can retain the same by paying to the department a rental of 10 cents per acre. Now I will admit this Sir - T_hese same provisions are in the original Act passed, ( I forget the date) away back in I 952. I checked it not later than this morning. There is the same provi~ sion. I did not know this, otherwise I would have raised the point before.

When the Minister is replying, he might perhaps tell us why that was actually put in the original Act. It seems to me ridiculous that a big corporation like Buchan's Mines or any company like that can retain an unlimited number of acres just by pending a small sum of 10 dollars per acre. It means nothing at all because they can send anybody at all in there to spend $10 to retai_n it. Then, after a certain period from a year after the lease

424 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS also takes care of the acreage, by paying 10 cents an acre. Perhaps the Minister can give us some idea - I cannot say any more now because the thing is in the original Act in 1952, in the Consolidated Statutes. I did not know it was there in the Consolidated Statutes of 1952. Mr. Speaker: If the Minister speaks now he will close the debate - Does any other member wish to speak to this motion? Mr. Keough: Mrs. Speaker, I don't know I am sure - I have not the knowledge at the moment as to whether these particular rates were incorporated in the original legisla­ tion.

The present amendment is not to change the rates that were incorporated in that legislation, and I don't think my de­ partment wants to recommend to the gov­ ernment that the rates should be changed, without very careful scrutiny of them. We must first ascertain the reason for them, to ascertain whether changing them woi.Ild not be detrimental to mineral exploration and development. In regard to the second point hhe hon.

Leader made, I shall speak: The owner of the claim here, the leasee, is only required to spend $10 per acrej nevertheless at the end of two years, if he does not develop, as pro­ vided in another part of the Mines and Quarries Act, at the end of two years, ifhe does not proceed with development and with production, the Minister may cancel the lease (The Minister, that is, in consulta­ tion with the Executive, which would take cognizan('e of any extenuating circums­ tane<s there might be) On motion, Bill read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Hoti.se on tomorrow: On motion that the House go into Commit­ tee of the Whole on various Bill, Mr.

Speaker left the Chair. Mr. G. R. Clarke (Chairman of Committee of the Whole) Committee of the Whole on Bill, "An Act to Amend the Urban and Rural Planning Act". Hon. L. R. Curtis (Attorney General): There are two printings. One is called the second print and one is called the first print. Has the second print been circulated? Mr. Hollett: Yes! I want to raise that point, Mr. Chairman, it seems rather strange to me. The first print took up the space of a page and a half

whereas the second print takes up four pages, almost requiring another second reading, I would say. Hon. S. J. Hefferton ( Minister of Welfare): Mr. Chairman, in the absence of my coll­ ea_gue the Hon. Minister of Municipal Af­ fam I am charged with piloting this Bill through the House,and I might make the explanation before we start. Although there is no new principle involved in the reprint of the Bill, the Bill is enlarged to take care of certain things contemplated in the first printing because of a new Bill.

That is now being changed by reason or conversation carried on between the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Municipal Coun­ cil of St. John's - A tentative agreement was made and incorporated into this Bill and another one before the house, an amendment to the St. John's Municipal Act. Mr. Curtis: At the same time, Mr. Chair~ man, perhaps my hon. friend opposite feel they would like to speak on the principle of the Bill. Hon. M. M. Hollett (Leader of the Opposi­ tion): I would like to have it deferred until tomorrow. There are some references there to the St.

John's Municipal Act - I don't think any of my colleagues have bad an opportunity to read it. On motion, Committee of the Whole on Bill,

An Act to Amend the Urban and Rural Planning Act. reported progress arid ask )eave to sit again, carried: Committee of the Whole on Bill,••

An Act to Provide for the use of Sound Recording Machines for Taking and Recording Ei­ vence." Mr. Curtis: We read this bill and passed all the sections, I understand, except ( 4) and (5). I would suggest a slight amendment to

Section 4, which would cover the point raised by certain members of the house; I think the Premier mentioned it and also some m_embers of the Opposition." A sound recording made under Section (3) shall be certified by the judge or by the person" ..• If we strike out the word "person" and put

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEED! NGS 425 in "Court:Official", All court officials are sworn. Therefore a court official would be a sworn official. I think that would make paragraph ( 4) acceptable. Then, in the side note~ - Instead of"certification of said re­ cord" insert "certification of sound record­ ing". That is just a misprint. Then, if we move on to Section (5) - "An official court reporter or shorthand typist may reduce to typewritten copy the whole or any part of the sound record made under Section (3) and certified pursuant to

Section ( 4), and where a reporter or shorthand typist does so, he shall attach to typewritten copies an affida\rit stating that it 1s true". I think these two amendments would meet all the points raised, if they are acceptable to the house. Mr. Hollett: If the word "court official" has been defined anywhere in any legislation, I wonder! It could be the man who looked after the floors. Mr. Curtis: I don't think it could be a man who looks after the floors. Mr. Hollett: I suppose it means crown offi­ cial. Mr. Curtis: "Court official" is obvious.

The Premier just suggested we make it read "of­ ficers of the court". Mr. Hollett: That sounds better. Mr. Curtis: That might eliminate the ar­ gutnent there. I think "officers of the court" may restrict it. Hon. M. P. Murray (Minister of Provincial Affairs): We could put it in the interpreta­ tion clause to cover it. Mr. Hollett: It may not mean very much but it is very important, I think, that evidence taken by sound recording shall be certified by the judge as correct or by a person in charge, a court official. I think it is abso­ lutely essential everybody should know just what is meant by "court official".

Maybe the doorkeeper is a court official. Mr. Murray: Mr. Chairman, I think there is a great deal in what the hon. Leader of the Opposition says. Obviously it is so easy to tamper with recordings, I think it is abso­ lutely essential it should be in the hands of responsible people. I think in this particular instance we should put a sub-section in the

interpretation clause defining "court ofli­ dal", the Registrar of the Supreme Court, the Chief Justice and Court Reporter, something along these lines. Mr. Speaker: Clause 4, as amended, car­ ried? Mr. Hollett: Nay! On motion, clause (4) as amended carried: On motion, clause (5) as amended carried: Motion, that the Committee report having passed this Bill with some amendments, carried. Committee of the Whole on BiH, "An Act Further to Amend the Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation Llmited Act, 1951." Mr. Curtis: Mr. Chairman, one suggestion - I think we are holding up

Section ( 4), if I temember rightly. Mr. Hollett: We stopped at page 7. Mr. Curtis: On page 13, Mr. Chairman, we have a new

section to go in, and I will move it. This is to be added as the new sub~section 23, clause 8 (a). We added a new 22, and we added a new 21, and this would be the new 23 to be inserted at the end of the clause. The new section, which I move will read as follows: "The exercise of the right,; of the corporation under sub-section 16 and 17 shaJJ be without prejudice to the exercise of the rights hereto before granted to any per­ son, firms or corporations". It is just a saving clause provided so that these grants are subject to the existing grants, if any - it is purely a formality. Mr.

Hollett: The act was read completely. The appendix was not read, and the Attorney-General asked to report progress at the end of page 27. Hon. J. R. Smallwood (Premier): Would the hon. Leader of the Opposition like to have it read? Mr. Curtis: I have a recollection, Mr. Chairman, of making a correction in the middle of page 27, which make me think it was read.

426 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Premier Smallwood: The hon. Leader of the Opposition says page 28 and on has not been read. Mr. Hollett: I have here "report progress". Agreement: Mr. Hollett: Could the Minister give us some idea how NALCO could make a de­ fault - "in the event of default" - I take it that is a default with some person who may give a lease. Then the govern me ht agrees to do certain things. In what way would they make a default? Premier Smallwood: If they fail to spend the amount they are required to spend, that would be their principal default. They may fail to make returns.

They may fail to file copies of their report. Mr. Hollett: This is if NALCO makes a de­ fault. Premier Smallwood: Quite so! NALCO is required to do certain things which they may fail to do, and if their concessionaires do not want to find themselves in default because of something they did not do - The hon. Leader of the Opposition will re­ member that was spelled out in one of the conferences we held. It was spelled out quite clearly. They said they wanted to be protected against any default not of their doing, wanted to come back straight to the government. Mr.

Hollett: They could remedy with the government defaults made by NALCO. Mr. Curtis: Only with respect to the areas where they had their sub-concessions. Mr. Hollett: Yes. On motion, clauses (

l) through (4) carried: Mr. Hollett: Mr. Chairman, now that we have come to the end of that, I wonder if the Minister would acquaint the house just how NALCO will hold on to- the concessions which it has. Has it got to pay certain amounts of money per year? If so, how much? I wonder if the Minister would give us come idea. Premier Smallwood: They have to spend almost $100 1 000 a year on exploration and drilling, developing in that sense of the word, to be able to hold their concessions.

I think we have also introduced into the plan something of the principle of shedding that we introduced, (the Committee will re­ member) in the BRINCO legislation. They begin with a certain grand total amount of land. On that land they have the sole and exclusive right to explore and if they find anything, also the right to sub-lease their rights or part or all of them to other parties - and if anything is found they have the right to demand and receive a lease over the part that they intend to develop.

If they find minerals they have the right to demand from the government the lease of the min­ eral land known to contain minerals. Then they have a right also to give to other parties the rights they have. They cannot give what they do not have themselves. Then, superimposed upon that is this principle of shedding. After so many years they have to shed or relinguish so many miles.

Now, as a matter of fact what we have done is this: The Committee will remember that NALCO had begun to come fairly near to the time when they were obliged to shed some of their land, under the original ag­ reement, under the timetable set up in the original agreement. We have extended this so as to give the new owners an extension of life of that right, so that they could try their hand at bringing about the development that the owners and directors of NALCO were not able to bring about. But it is no use their trying their hand to bring about de­ velopment of the area they are about to lose.

So we extend the time within which they could make that effort. That is not an unli­ mited time, it is only an extension. With regard to a lot of the rest of the territory, they have to relinguish it in specified amounts in a specified period of time. I confess I cannot recall now what the periods are, but the Leader of the Opposition is just as familiar as I am with the legislation now before the house. It has been before him for a fort night or more, and he has probably read it since I did. Ifhe did, his,memory on it will be quite fresh, fresher than mine. I have not read it for months.

Incidentally, this principle of sheddh)g is not entirely new. It was also in the_conces-

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 427 sion that was given in 1936 by the Commis­ sion of Government to the Labrador Min­ ing and Exploration Company. They were given at that time a total of 20,000 square miles: that is to say, they were given the sole right to explore within that 20,000 square miles and the sole right, if they found any­ thing worth developing, to develop. Of course, they were also given the right to concede their concessions in whole or in part to others. As we know. they did this. They conceded part of it to the Iron Ore Company of Canada. Now, that principle of shedding is in there as well.

By 1950, I think,.they were supposed to shed, I don't know how many thousands, but I think it was 5,000 square miles, and they did shed, I think, that amount then. At all events, they shed the amount they were-supposed to shed, and part of what 'they shed was this Wabush Lake Area, which we have been considering so much in this house in the last week or so. Now they were supposed to shed more, I think, in 1955. That was five years later.

They asked us to extend that period and we dideXtendit to, !·think, 1960, and in 1960, two years from now they have to shed another large slice of that 20,000 square miles and some years after that again they have to shed another large area until finally they come down to a grand total of 1000 square miles, out of their original 20,000. So 1,000 is the most they can have. It is highly unlikely that they will keep the 1,000 but they can under the law as it is; they can keep up to 1,000 square miles, but by that time they will have shed 19,000 out of the 20,000.

Similarly BRINCO are required to shed large blocks, large proportions of the area over which they were given the sole and exclusive right to explore. I believe that we have had ad~pte? the same principle in the NALCO leg15}atton, by amendment in the present legislation before the house. I don't know if it is in the Bill before the house at this mo­ ment, but it will be before the house and amongst these seven pieces of legislation. I think I have perhaps answered the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Hollett: If the· hon. the Premier will allow me - There is jus_t one reservation I have as far as NALCO is concen1ed now. In relatiori"to the Newfoundland government, I feel Wabush and Javelin are in a position to explore and develop up to 1,000 square miles eventually, perhaps in the next 25 to 30 years, as the case may be. They have more or less absolute control, at least the right to look for all minerals and oil, every­ thing, in that huge area over the allotted time. And the shareholders or directors of Wabush Iron and Javelin are,some of them directors of NALCO.

Consequently, these two huge corporations will now be in a posi­ tion at any rate to explore that whole area- BRINEX - BRINCO: Premier Smallwood: If the hon. Leader will allow me to interrupt -Or if not to explore it themselves to ·get others to do so. It is the latter that is more likely to happen. Now in that connection, if my hon. friend is finished - he must have noticed that BRINCO fairly recently formed a subisid­ ary company known as "Brinex", which is an abbreviation for British Newfoundland Corporation Exploration Company, "Brinex".

Now the purpose of that is to have Brinex act as an agent to put together their resources, block in sections of their conces­ sions with different companies. So they have brought in quite a number of Ameri­ can and Canadian and, I think, other com­ panies as we 11, giving to each of them a block or

section of their over-all concession that they have received from the Legislature of Newfoundland, from this house. Similarly, NALCO is out to do the same thing also, to bring in, we hope, many companies - they hope to bring in many companies. I may say they are already in dose touch with very important concerns whose names have often been heard in Newfoundland in the last year or two, and there is a distinct possi­ bility they may get together - two famous names - at least they are talking about it, discussing it.

These discussions will be car­ ried on and Newfoundland may see a big combination of big important names tackl­ ing one important sector of our natural re­ sources. That is why we did it, to try to stir up new interest and bring in new people. We are quite hopeful th;it will come. Mr. Hollett: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Premier mentioned BRINCO and Brinex. It has nothing to do with this. I wonder if the hon. the Premier could give us any idea of the conversations going on between

428 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS BRINCO regarding the sale of electricity? Has he any objection to making any re­ marks about the uranium deposits of BRINCO? I know this is not the exact place. Premier Smallwood: Well, if Mr. Chairman and the Committee permit, I will be glad to. The talks are going on very actively within BRINCO and the Iron Ore Company of Canada with regard to the former provid­ ing electricity to the latter in the new Wabush Lake Area. I had a report on that as recently as Friday last. It is pending.

It de­ pends on negotiations at the moment as to whether it will happen that way or whether \he : Iron Ore Company of Canada will proiide its own electricity by developing Menihek. They are already getting electric­ ity from Menihek, and there is the possibil­ ity that they will raise the head by flooding more country and raising the level of Menihek Lake and developing additional power there. That is possible, or there is the possibility of them getting their power from BRINCO, who would develop it in a place the hon.

Leader of the Opposition can very well visualize because he was there; below the great proposed main source of power, the Hamilton Falls. Below the falls is the place where they can develop a very sub­ stantial block of power which could well fit into the main development which would come later on. These conversations are going forward. I have had reports on the talks. In fact I initiated the talks and I have had reports from both parties. On Friday last I was given a complete up-to-date re­ port, and on the telephone I had one from BRINCO.

Now there are still other talks, and it was these to which I thought the Leader of the Opposition was going to refer. BRINCO are also carrying on talks in Ottawa with the Government of Canada. I was present at these talks, or at the begin­ ning of them at least. And while we were discussing these matters we had the pleas­ ure of having a visitor pttend the meeting, in the person of a former member of this house, who used to sit there opposite us, up to a year and a half ago. Mr. A. M. Duffy (St. John's Centre): I un­ derstand he was very co-operative.

Premier Smallwood: And I must say I said after the meeting and I repeat now, and I am glad to repeat, he was most helpful and friendly and co-operative, and we two get along like two long-lost brothers. One would not have suspected for a moment that we were not the closest of friends, as we discussed another electric development, possible electric development, in New­ foundland in which BRINCO are deeply concerned. Now I understand I am to have a report on that very shortly, today or to­ morrow, from Ottawa.

Until I receive it I am afraid I cannot say anything, but that I hope it is favourable and I have some little reason to suppose so - as the house could imagine - The news out yet? About four o'clock. 'The white smoke has not gone up yet. My hon. friend, the Solicitor General, has gone out to see what he can round,up. Now with regard to the other question, the uranium find at Makkovik which is an extra-ordinary rich deposit of uranium. It is one of the richest deposits in all Canada - the richest - not the biggest. The tonnage deposit is not proven yet. Surely the hon.

Leader of the opposition remembers all this as well as I. He was briefed the last time I was. Mr. Hollett: As to that much I hoped you had more. Mr.Smallwood: Well, it is the Committee to which I am giving the information. The hon. Leader of the Opposition asked me to do it. It is extraordinarily rich but as yet has not been proven tg be a large deposit of uranium. Until they begin to develop, it will hardly pay to go on and do the extensive drilling that would be needed to prove up the much greater tonnage.

They had hoped actually to work that mine and while work­ ing it to use their income from it to finance the cost of a great pro1,>ram of drilling to prove up the tonnage they suspect to exist but don't know exists. Now, the whole uranium market is off, and they are not moving. There is no activity at the present time because of the present state of the world uranium market, which the Commit.tee must know is very precariousi unpromising at this moment. Until they know what new contracts are to be placed, new orders are to be given, what markets are to exist after I 960, !think, or 1962, their hands are tied.

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 429 Mr. Hollett: That is an important year .. Premier Smallwood: An important year in another respect too, isn't it? They are just going to sit tight and see what breaks, what market offers, what new contracts are likely to come up. They won't wait until 1962, you know1 to place new contracts. The existing contracts expire in 1962, but indications of what new Ones will be given following the expiration of the present ones, indications of that will be given long before 1962. That is about all I can say about uranium at this moment. Mr.

Hollett: There is one other question - While we are on NALCO, I wonder will the hon. the Premier tell us whether or not NALCO has shed any of its concessions on the Burin Peninsula? Premier Smallwood: I don't think so. I don't think they are due yet to be shed. These were the last concessions they were given, I think. Mr. Hollett: One of the last. Premier Smallwood: They were among the last of the concessions in point of time to be given to NALCO.

NALCO entered into an agreement to conduct an intensive survey in that area with the Aluminum Company of Canada, Akan, of course, being interested in finding fluorspar - or am I confusing that with something else. I know that Akan and another company - we insisted on another company there - were interested only in fluorspar 1 but we wanted everything looked for. If they were going to look over a given area, they were not to confine it to fluorspar or any one mineral. We insisted on getting another company to join in and look for other hase metals. Mr. Hollett: Don't they make a report every year?

NALCO is supposed to make a report. Premier Smallwood: I think they do, in fact I know because they are made to me as Minister of. Economic Development. Actu­ ally, what happens is they bring in the re­ ports and I say, 'sit down and tell me what is tn it'. They tell me orally and that saves me the work of browsing through long reports. Mr. Hollett: You are getting older and are likely to forget. Premier Smallwood: Yes, especially with so many committees, groups, boards, au­ thorities and organizations of all kinds.

It is a wonder I don't forget the names of the organizations not alone their many reports, but I manage to get most of them. Mr. G. Nightingale (St. John's North): Has anyone any right to go in on these particular areas to prospect, on these territories owned by Wabush? The Federal govern­ ment, for instance? Premier Smallwood: Whoever owns land, whether it is the Crown in Right of New­ foundland, (i.e. the government) the public of Newfoundland, or a private company or companies, the owners are always happy to have somebody go in, especially the gov­ ernment of Canada, and search.

And most of the land on which the government of Canada sends its geologists is land that is privately owned, or a large part of it. If they suspect that it is mineralized they go in and look, it does not matter who owns it. If min­ eral is developed, it is good for Canada, it does not matter who owns the land, the minerals and the mines so long as they are developed. Mr. Nightingale: The Federal department is doing a good job, Sir. Committee of the Whole on Bill,"

An Act to Authorize the Lieutenant Governor in Council to Enter Into Agrement with Canadian Javelin Limited"; Hon. L. R. Curtis (Attorney General): The bill has been disposed of except it was not formally passed. We have passed every sec­ tion. Motion, that the Committee report prog­ ress and ask leave to sit again, carried: Committee of the Whole on Bill, 11

An Act to Authorize the Lieutenant Governor in Council to Enter Into an Agreement with Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation Limited and Canadian Javelin Limited and to Provide Certain Statutory Provisions for the same Purpose". On motion, Clause (

I) carried: Mr. Curtis: In "C" of Clause (2), in the last

430 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS line but one - "Hereinafter substituted" - between these two words insert the word "lawfully" - "Hereinafter lawfully substi­ tuted". On page (3), 5th line - "the assets, sub­ leases and licences and agents of NALCO" - insert the word "agent". These are the only two changes. On motion, Clause (2) as amended, carried: Mr. Hollett: Surely, Mr. Chairman, that looks a bit odd for NALCO, also to mean its agent and its leasees, subleases, for instance Javelin. Mr, Curtis: This is a definition of NALCO. NALCO means Newfoundland and Lab­ rador Corporation. Mr.

Hollett: Is not Javelin a leasee of NALCO? Mr. Curtis: Yes. Mr. Hollett: Therefore Javelin is NALCO. Pickands-Mather is NALCO. Mr. Curtis: Yes, insofar as their particular concession is concerned. Yes, they are NALCO for the purpose of this definition. Mr, Hollett: I don't see it but I suppose I have not got a legal brain. Mr. Curtis: Lucky for that or you might be Chief Justice. Mr. Hollett: If NALCO gives me a licence or lease then I am NALCO? Mr.

Curtis: If I have a lease of a piece of land from anyone and I transfer to you, you take my place, and then if you sell it to the gentleman next to you he becomes the leasee. It is just a legal function. Mr, Hollett: NALCO there is very closely defined. Now you are altering the defini­ tion of NALCO. Mr, Curtis: Just fort he purpose of this Act. You see the definition of NALCO in

an Act only applies to that Act. It is not a general definition that you get in a directory. NALCO has one definition in this Act, and another and still a third in a third Act. Mr. Hollett: But, Mr. Chairman, this Bill purports to define an agreement between NALCO and Javelin and Starts out by defin­ ing NALCO and Javelin. Yet Canadian Javelin means NALCO and NALCO means Canadian Javelin. I think we should take a look at that. Mr. Curtis: Let it pass now and befo"re ris­ ing, the Committee will look at it. Mr. Hollett: Yes, sure, there is something difficult about it. Mr.

Curtis: No, only difficult for a layman to understand. Premier Smallwood: That is putting us in our places, you see. Mr. Hollett: I am glad to be a layman, Mr. Chairman. On motion, Clauses (3) and (4) carried: Mr. Hollett: The Social Security Assess­ ment Act is taking an awful beating under this legislation. Mr. Curtis: Clause 5 (2), fourth line, the word "the" inserted - "the authority". ' Mr. A. M. Duffy (St. John's Centre): I men- tioned this in the princi pie ofthe Bill, that it is unfortunate.

I am prepared to admit that there is some economic necessity but it is unfortunate that this should be necessary because I think it represents a relatively substantial amount of money. In the word­ ing of this it says - "machinery, goodsj arti­ cles and things". Now ,just exactly what does that mean? Premier Smallwood: Articles and things, used in the original. Mr. Duffy: Does that mean workmen's overalls and hammers? Should not that be more clearly defined? Mr. Curtis: I may say, Mr.

Chairman, We have a letter of intent from the companies concerned, defining just what that is' to mean and making clear it is not tO include food or workmen's clothing and things of that type.

Mr. Duffy: That is covered specifically? Mr. Curtis: We did not know how to draft the

section so as to include what should be, and exclude what should not be, so it is being done in the form of a letter of intent. We have it. Mr. Duffy: That is alright. On motion, Clauses (5) and (6) carried: Mr. Hollett: Why 15 years here? We agreed the other day remember the discussion? that no firm or corporation, no mining company, would be prepared to pay out a lot of money and raise a lot of capital if they had to proceed with due diligence. Now, in connection with Julienne Lake there is the Pickands~Mather area.Javelin area and the Knoll Lake area and Julienne Lake area.

Well, itis obviously impossible that all would proceed at one time. There must be some orderly development, and if we made it ob­ ligatory for Julienne Lake to proceed, for instance, with due diligence, the question arises "what does due diligence mean"? Does that mean immediately or in its turn? So it is felt that a term of 15 years should be the outside period. Premier Smallwood: It is an attempt at de­ fining the words "due diligence". On motion, Clause (7) carried: CL,uses (8) and (9) carried: On ·motion,

schedule carried; Mr •. Curtis: My hon. friends will realize, Mr. Chairman, these agreements, all of them, had to pass about 10 lawyers altogether, and by the time every lawyer had his amend­ ments - Premier Smallwood: Or pretend to earn his fee. Mr. Curtis: I must repudiate that sugges­ tion, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hollett: That is a long agreement, Mr. Chairman, for29 square miles.It has almost that much typing. Mr. Smallwood: There is a lot of mineral down there.

On motion, appendix carried: Motion, that the Committee report having 431 passed this bill with some amendments, car­ ried: On motion the Committee recessed for 10 minutes after which Mr. Clarke, returned to the Chair, as chairman. Committee of the Whole on Bill,"

An Act to Authorize the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to Enter Into an Agreement with Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation Limited, Canadian Javelin Limited, and Wabush Iron Company Limited, and to Provide Certain Statutory Provisions for the Same Purpose and to Make Certain Amendments to the NALCO-Javelin (Min­ erals Lands) Act, 1957". Mr. Hollett: I wonder if somebody would explain the reason it is called optional ag­ reement? This is on a big area, I believe. Mr. Curtis: Because it gave them an option to take the property within a certain period of time. It is literally an option.

They had to have some distinction. One had a conces­ sion agreement, and the other an option agreement. Mr. Hollett: I wonder could the Minister describe the Wabush Iron lease, the area involved? Premier Smallwood: I cannot, from mem­ ory. Mr. Curtis: I dare say the maps will show those which we have already given the hon. member. On motion Clauses (

I) through (5) carried: Mr. A. M. Duffy (St. John's Centre): I sup­ pose the same applies there, a letter Of in­ tent covering social security tax? Mr. Curtis: Yes, there is a letter about that too. We have the formal letter for all ag­ reements. Mr. Hollett: I understand the Attorney­ General to say there was a letter of intent in connection with that? Mr. Curtis: Yes, never actually signed, just approved in form. 1 will be able to bring it and show it to the house tomorrow. It is just a general statement saying this does not

432 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS include .. food or clothing of any descrip­ tion. On motion, clauses (6) and (7) carried: Mr. Hollett: Mr. Chairman, why are not the provisions of the NALCO Act in relation to any obligation to proceed with development or with mining made by NALCO to Javelin, why don't they apply in respect of these various areas? (

a) From which Wabush Iron acquires a right to take a lease under (

I) the Option Agreement; or (11) subclause (

I) of clause (3) of the Statutory Agreement while such right subsists; (

b) demise in a lease granted to Wabush Iron (1) by Javelin in pursuance of the Op­ tion Agreement or ( 11) by the Govern meat or by NALCO under and in pursuance of subclause (1) of clause (3) of the Statutory .Ag­ reement while such lease remains undetermined; (

c) demised by the Wabush Iron Lease; or (

d) demised by any lease granted in pur­ suance of subclause (3) of the Statutory Agreement. Mr. Curtis: We could just hold that

section for a second look. On motion, clause (8) stands: Clauses (9) and ( 10) carried: Mr. Curtis: In clause 11, the word "for" to be inserted: "(iv) steam hydro - electrical or other plant 'for' developing power" On motion, Clause (11) carried: On motion,

Schedule carried: Motion that the Committee report progress and ask leave to sit again, carried: Committee of the Whole on Bill, "An Actto Authorize the- Lieutenant-Governor in Council to Enter Into an Agreement with Wabush Lake Railway Company, Limited, Northern Land Company Limited and Carol Lake Company, Limited, and to Pro­ vide Certain Statutory Provisions for the Same Purpose": Mr; Curtis: This has been read, and there are no reservations at all. Perhaps we might report progress on it again;'and also report progress on all these bills, I think.

WABUSH LAKE RAILWAY: Committee of the Whole on Bill, "An Act to Amend the Wabush Lake Railway Act, 1955". Hon. L. R. Curtis (Attorney General): There are two little changes there, Mr. Chairman: in the first place we brought in a slight amendment to 32, and you will re­ member we made one change in the middle by saying"Instead of Carol Land Company, Carol Lake Company". Another amend­ ment should make the words "or of Cana­ dian javelin Limited or of any other persons or companies".

This should be striken out because they are covered in the proviso added to iL It will then read: "shall be with­ out prejudice to the rights of the Govern­ ment against the Company - then, instead of "for", "with respect to" any obligation of the Company previously accrued. On motion, Clause (6) as amended carried: Mr. Curtis: It will be remembered Mr. Chairman, on page 4, (7) -

(1) I was mov­ ingan amendment and the wording was not satisfactory to me, so I had another look at the

section - Now on the fifth line from the bottom of the new 7 (1) - the words "Inci­ dental thereto". After thereto I would like to write in the words: "and without restrict,.. ing the generality of the foregoing land for a railway right-of-way to Julienne Lake Area". So that, Sir, it now reads: "For other purposes incidental thereto and without re­ stricting the generality of the foregoing land for a railway right-of-way to Julienne Lake Area". There is not a bit of difference in the amendment, it just means Julienne Lake. They have asked us to do it.

On motion, Section (4) as amended, car­ ried: Motion that the Committee report progress and ask leave to sit again on this bill, carried: Committee of the Whole on Bill, "An Act Respecting a Private Mining Carrier Rail­ way in Labrador". Mr. Chairman (Mr. G. R. Clarke): This bill has been read. Mr. Curtis: I have no additional amend­ ments to that, so might we just report prog­ ress and ask leave to sit again? Motion, that the Committee report prog-

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 433 ress and ask leave to sit again, carried: Committee of the Whole on Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Accident Insurance Companies (Licensing) Act". Mr. Hollett: Mr~ Chairman, does that mean they have to forward the name of every person insured and the amount of insur­ ance carried? Hon. M. P, Murray (Solicitor General):,No, Sir, all that is involved is that each company doing business under-writing automobile insurance is required to file at the end of each year· a balance sheet as to the total amount of premiums and the total amount paid out in order to arrive at the total.

This information is sent to Montreal, to a statisti­ cal agency, the Canadian Board of Fire Un­ derwriters. Based on the information re­ ceived they are supposed - Mr. G. Nightingale (St. John's North): I take it we will have cheaper insurance from now on in Newfoundland? Mr. Murray: Not necessarily. This is to in­ sure that the rates are not set arbitrarily by any'company but on an actual statistical basis. Mr, Hollett: Who is the superintendent of IJ!surance? · Mr. Murray: Mr. James Channing, the De­ puty Minister of Provincial Affairs. There is a superintendent for every province, as you kn0w.

Mr, Eric Jones (Burin): This means we might expect uniformity of rates between different companies insuring automobiles? Mr. Murray: That is the purpose; that the rates be uniform and not set by the caprice of any company, set uniformally all throughout the Pro,inces. Mr. Duffy: That does not apply to fire in­ surance? Mr. Murray: No, this has nothing to do with fire insurance, Motion, that the Committee report having passed _this Bill without amendment, car­ ried: Mr.

Curtis: I would suggest instead of pas­ sing these Bills. the motion in every case be that we report progress because we would like to keep them in the Committee stage. I move we report progress on all Bills except the last one we passed. On motion that the Committee rise and re­ port progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr, Speaker returned to the Chair. Mr, Clarke (Committee Chairman): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered Bill No. 37, "An Act Further to Amend the Accident Insurance Companies (Licensing) Act'\ and have directed me to · report -having passed same without amendment.

On motion, report received, Bill ordered read a third time on tomorrow: Mr, Clarke: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered other matters to them referred and have directed me to re­ port progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received, Committee or­ dered sit again on tomorrow: Mr, Curtis: I move, Mr. Speaker, the re­ maining orders of the day do stand defer­ red, and the House at its rising to adjourn until toniorrow, -Wednesday, at three o'clock.

On motion all remaining Orders of the Day stand deferred: On motion the House at its rising adjourned until torriorrow, Wednesday, May 13th, at three o'clock. · Wednesday, May 13, 1959 (Afternoon Session) The house met at three o'clock. MEMORIAL UNIVERSITY: Hon, J. R. Smallwood (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would like. to say something about the new University, I remem~er I said one day last week that I would say some­ thing about it soon ~nd J·am m·a position to do that today. I do11't propose to say too much. We have decided to !l!)ahead at once with the building of the first stage of the

434 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS ulliversity consisting of five separate build­ ings, a model of which We have had on the floor of the house on several occasions. The buildings are: Arts, Education, Science, · Library, Gymnasium and the Housing. The total cost is $13 million and we hope that construction will commence on the 15th:of June this year. The people who are IQ build promise that they should compelte con­ struction in about a year and a half, about the same rate of time as it took to build the new Confederation Building.

Now $13 million is, of course, a lot of money for ~ewfoundland;·and it is too large an . amount to add to the public debt,just as $8 million seemed to us at the time too large an amount to add to the public debt for the construction of the Confederation Build­ ing. Therefore, after we had made the ar­ rangement with Whitney Hansen for the construction of the Confederation Build­ ing, ,we asked them to give us a price on the Building, but.we had no plans nor specifi­ cation. But we did have plans and specifica­ tions for the ,University, because, ,over a period of years, they have been in process of drawing.

So they took these_ specifications and suggested certain changes for us. In the construction of the Confederation Build­ ing, 'the house will recall, we submitted their proposals to architects and to other firms, a number of firms, and then submitted their plans to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation at Ottawa, and a number of other very eminentauthorities on the main­ land of Canada. They approved them, so we did, and the house finally did as well ..

So that, what we propose to do now, is to take those same original plans and specifica­ tions on the University buildings and apply to them the Same modifications that were applied when we were deciding on the na­ ture of the Confederation Building con­ struction. Otherwise, the unit -price is 1 ihe same, the whole scheme is the same, not­ withsra,nding the increase in cost of con­ struction ..:... We are getting the'.university built for the same unit price as was the case in the cohstrudion of die Confederation Building. The estimate is that it'will cost$13 million to deliver the buildings to US com­ plete.

Of that, about $4.25 million will be represented by labour costs, local laboUr cost.' In--additioti to that, there is some im­ ported labour which wili·have to be'emp­ loyed, as ·was the case with the Confedera- tion Building. They were not able to get enough brick layers, and so I think 50 or 60 men bad to be brought in from Montreal, during the past winter. Indeed, I thin}{ mrist of the brick work on Confederation Build­ ing bas been done by bricklayers frcim Quebec, from the Pro,ince of Quebec.

Simi­ larly, in the consti:tiction of these five new buildings, it is probable that a great many bricklayers will have to be brought in, be­ cause we just have not got them in our Pro­ vince. They employed all the bricklayers in Newfoundland they could get, but having done that they still will undoubtedly need more ,for these five new buildings. I am quite sure they will-need far,,more than are available locally iri the construction of the Confederation Building. Actually the fig­ ure of 15% of the labour will be non-local Jabour; and 85% which will be local will take about $4.25 million in wages.

Then, the material that will be obtained loc­ ally will run to about another $4 millionrso . that, of tbe total coslof the buildings, about $8.25 millions of the $13 millions will.be distributed to local people. A large part of the material, Of course, will have to be:irh­ ported. All of the steel and possibly all of the brick - if not all, then a large proportion - as was the case with Confederation Build­ ing. Some bricks are Newfoundland-made and some are brought in from the outside. I am quite sure it would be the sa~e with the University. The plan is that we will take 25 years to pay for it.

We commence payinent as scion as we receive the buildings,- as sobn as they are finished and they give us the key and we take possession. Then we begin to pay and will pay approximately $800,000 a year,for 25 years. That will amortize the full. cost, including interest.

And although it is per~ fectly true that we would borrow this m~ney to build ourselves and we would get the money cheaper than they will get it (al­ though'not very much cheaper) we think that the savings we Would make on interest charges would be much more than lost by the lack of efficiency there would be in <:,<in­ structing these buildings, as compared 0 With the efficiency the present people are able to give:· · , ' At the peak, there will be a total of about 600 persOns -working on the construction "of these buildings. I am anticipating the esii­ mate when I say approximately $200,000 a

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 435 year fo_r ~ome.few years to come, will be the approximate amount that this house would need t9 vote to the University for or towards the operating costs Of it, together with the $800,000 a year, {the cost of purchasing the new buildings) whi.ch together will run to sometqing over $1,200,000 a year as the total future cost of the university.

Now, tTTt; only one of the two figures that will remaip constant is, of course, the $800,000 for the purchase of the buildings. .The$200,000 is bound to increase when the new buildings are finished. and .a much larger number of studen~s enter the Uni­ versity. I think at the moment it is 1100 or 1200. It will doubtlessly increase to 2000 in the next three or four or five years.

And I think we may as well be recom;iled at once to the fact that the $200,000 a year that the University is costing us now to operate, as our contributions - (that is to say, our con­ tribution-as distinct-from the contributions of the Canada Council, which is contribut­ ing even more than that, .I believe, to the annual cost of the university) -o.urcost will undoubteqly increase.

So that, while for the nexuwo or three years, while we may think $1,000,000 a year will cover it, as the total contributions from this house, that wiltnot long repiain the cas~ You will see it going much higher than that. l don't know that there is anything more that lean add, The legislation will have to be l:iroughtdown, of course, and the house will h~ve to debate the matter thoroughly, as it .did wheµ the Confederation Building was decidec,l qp, and the money was heingvoted. The Cabinet have approved the plan.

Legis­ lation will have to be brought down, of ;.qmrse, and the house will have to debate the m.atter thoroughly, as it did when the · Confederadon Building was being decided on, and ~he money was _being voted. I have:only this to;say, however •-Jam. very proudJ9 be able to make _this. ap.nounce­ ment. The house will remember that: it was a Liberal government that built tlie Univer­ sity in the first pla,ce, in 1920, the :University college, as a memorial, to Newfoundland veterans in the.First World War; and it was a Liberal government which made it a Uni­ versity JO years ago.

And the same Li.be.ral government is now embarking upon this very ambi_tiaus plan to-commence the con­ structi~(l of a univ_ersity,at an initial cost of $13 million. I am very proud of that. I ari sure _my friends won't begrudge us the very natural pride we have in this. I am not say­ ing if they were here they would not do it just as gladly as we do. I am sure they will support it.

I am sure that, as Newfoundlan­ ders, they are as happy as we are to see this great advance in education in Newfound­ land, But, as I say, I can't resist the oppor­ ,tunity to express my owri personal satisfac­ tion at being associated in this way with the building of Canada's neWest_university and one that we hope will be better in some 'respects thail some Other Universities. May I say this before I finish; I can'fhelp it -.I am goihg to say it my way. I am not happy with the progress of the University.

I h~ve had disquieting _repal'ts abput th,e Uni­ versity in the ·past thiee, four fJr five' years, but especially the last one or two year~. I am not happy and this gov_eniment _ are not happy about the standards of the Univer­ sity. We.are not happy about the fact that, l 0 years ago, when we.crea~ed it, we ex pres­ sed a strong hope that _the Urii_versity wc~mld very rapidly become. the best in Canada from the stand-point of extension work.

When we expressed the belief that New­ foundland, .is rar as the Univefsity was con­ cerne __ d need, above_ anything else, good ex­ ~ension wox_-k; about the greatest Work this University c0uld do was in the direction of exte_nsion, of carrying itself out into the outports. If we could not bring the sons of :fishermen and loggers into st. John/s ta at­ ten~ the University, then bring_the Univer­ si,ty to them, as is.done all oVer the world, as 1is done so magnificen,tly in England.

Butten 'years-have passed and We still have m~ ex­ tension department; 10 years -a deca'.de - and it seems to me that some of.the au­ thqrities.·in ,the University ha.Ve failed ut- t~rly. . Hon. M. M.Hollelt (Leader of the Opposi­ tion): May I. ask a question? ls it not so that r,ecentl}' a director of e.Xtension was ap-- pointed? . Mr.S";'all111,ood: Yes. After JO years -;;after JO years they succeeded in fmding a man, and .the place they found him was the Un­ ited, Ki_ngdoffi. ~0 head ~p an·extension d_e­ partme'Jt.

B.ut I say, after W years, ,al­ .,th11.ugl) It was.well kno,wnin the Un/versity that we wanted the _Univt:rsity to, lean very h_ea\l!ly in th~ direction of e~tension work.

.436 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS So, 10 years have passed and only now we appoint a ~irector but st~ll no extension de­ partment and 10 years have passed without any extension work. Now I can say this. There will not he another 10 years pass, there will not he another two years pass - mark these words. Let it be noted this Uni­ versity belongs to the people of this Pro­ vince. It is their property. They own it, the people of Newfoundland.

If this house ac­ cepts the iJ:!.vitation of the government,'the government will shortly commit itself tO an expenditure of $13 million for these new b:tildings; an.d the people of Newfoundland have the_ right, through this house, to see that our University is what this house wants it to be. That was made clear 10 years ago, and a decade has passed and i.t is still not what we wanted it to be. I hope this is noted -,- lhope if is noted, and I hope the signifi­ ccince ofit _wiU be noted when we bring in an amendment lo the University Bill here. In fact I think it is on the Order Paper now.

I hope the significance of the changes we suggest will be noted. Before I sit down may I invite your atten­ tion, Mr. Speaker, to the act that we have here with us tciday a distinguished visitor, a member of the Mother of all Parliaments, the House of Commons in London,- in the person of Captain Cooper-Key who is visit­ ing Newfoundland with Lord Rothmere, the Chancellor of the University. I am sure we are all extremely happy lo see him. oc­ cupy a se3;t, which in our more grandilo­ quent moments we call the "Strangers Gal­ lery" in this chamber. We welcome him here! l_{ori. M. M.

Hollett (Leader of the Opposi­ llon): Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a word or two,just to say that Ithinkin all probabil­ ity all the people of Newfoundland will be glad of this announcement about the up­ and-coming University being built by the Conservative Government. That is the his­ toryin all countries, of course, in the world. Premier Smallwood: By the people. Mr. Hollett: The Liberals build, ihey say, but it is the Conservative Government who have lo pay for iL Now, we don't mind pay­ ing for fhe University, and are very happy at trie am1ouncement that same progress is being made and will be made.

It is going lo cost $20 million, over 25 years, (more ac­ cording to the hon. the Premier) but it is going lo be worth it if it brings to New­ foundland that degree of culture our peo­ ple are entitled to after these four arid a half centuries of trial here as the "outpost of the empire 0 - still "Empire", in my opinion. I haven't anything further to say except we are glad arrangements are being made. We will have a lot to say when the legislation is brought down in connection with the Uni­ versity, I suspect.

At the moment I would rather let sweetness prevail over this new venture on the part of the Liberal govern­ ment. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: LEGISLATION: Hon. L. R .. Curtis (Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow introduce the following Bills: A Bill, "An Act Further lo Amend the Lab­ rador Railway Act, 1948"; ABill, "AnActto Authorize the Government of Newfound­ land to enter into an agreement with New­ foundland Cement Company Limited and North Star Cement Limited"; A Bill._ "An Act lo Authorize the Government io Enter into an Agreement with McNamara_ Con­ struction of Newfoundland Limited and Canadian Machinery and Construction' Li­ mited"; also a Bill, 11

An Act Further to Amend the lndtistries Act"; and a Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Companies Act". Hon. W. J. Keough ( Minister of Mines and Resources): Mr. Speaker, I give.notice! will on toniorrow ask leave to introduce the fol­ lowing: A Bill, "An Act Restricting Travel Through Forest Lands" and a Bill, "An Act to Authorize the Government of New­ foundland to enter into an Agreement wfth Mr. M. ]. Boylen". Hon. Dr. J. A. McGrath (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I give n.otice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introdtice a Bill,!'An Act Further to Amend the Public Health AcL" Hon. C. H.

Ballam (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I give notice I will on to!"or­ row ask•Jeave to introduce a Bill "Ari Act

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 437 Further To Amend the Apprenticeship Act.''- Hon. E. S. Spencer (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I give notice I will on tomor­ row ask leave to move the house into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions respecting uThe Loan and Guarantee Act, 1957". ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: Hon. M. M. Hollett (Leader of the Opposi­ tion): Mr. Speaker, may I point out .there are several questions on the order pa per for which we have not yet received the answers. They have not heen received nor tabled. I am wondering - We would like to get the ariswers very shortly. Mr.

Speaker: Hon. minis_ters concerned will please take notice of outstanding questions. ORDERS OF THE DAY: (Bills: 3rd Reading) On motion the third reading of a Bill, "An Act to Amend the Life and Accident Insur­ ance I.J.ce·nsing Act" is deferred. 'Third Reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend the Wild Life Act." Bill read a third ti111e, and passed and title to be as on the Order Paper. Third Reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Notaries PublkAct, 1957." Bill read a third time, passed and title to be on the Order Paper.

Third.Reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend the Welfare of Children AcL" Bill read a third time, passed and title to be as on the Order Paper. Third Jcteading of a Bill, "An Act Respect­ ing The Payment Of Bounties On The Co.n­ struction Of Coasting Vessels." Bill read a third time, passed and title to \Je as on the Order Paper. Third Reading of a Bill, "An Act To Vali­ date Assessments Made In The Towns of Harbour.Grace, Place~t~aand Freshwater," Bill read a third time, passed and title to be as on the Order Paper. Third Reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend.

The Ass_essment Act, 1958." Bill read a third time, passed and title to be as on the Order Paper. Third Reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend The City of Corner Brook Act, 1958." Bill read a third time, passed and title. to. be as on the Order Paper. Third Reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend And Consolidate The law Respect­ ing Boilers, Pressure Vessels and Pressure Plants." Bill read a third time, passed and title to be as on the Order Paper.

Third Reading of a Bill, "An Act To Au­ thorize The Lieutenant Governor In Coun­ cil To Enter Into Agreement With Anglo­ Newfoundland Development Company Limited and American Smelting and Refin­ ing Company." Bill read a third time, pas­ sed and title to be as on the Order Paper. Third Reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Corrections Act." Bill read a third time, passed and title to be as on the Order .Paper. Third Reading of a Bill, "An. Act To Amend The Labrador lands (Reservation) Act." Bill read a third time, passed and title to be as on the Order Paper. Hon. B. J.

Abbott (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Supply): Asks leave to intro­ duce a Bill entitled"

An Act To Provide For the Development of Housing Accommoda­ tion". The Bill was introduced and read a first time. Motion was made that the said Bill be read a second time on tomorrow. Hon. W.J. Keough(Minister o[ Mines and Resources): Asks leave to introduce a Bill, entitled "An Act to Amend the Unim­ proved lands (Redistribution) Act, 1957". The Bill received first reading and will be give 11: second reading on tomorrow. Second Reading of a Bill,

An Act Further To Amend The Local School Tax act"; Hon. J.R. Smallwood (Premier): Mr. Speaker, you will remember that w.hen the School Tax Act was first passed (to the first number of people in and around Corner Brook) the Act provided that where the tax was i111posed no school fees would be col­ lected. Indeed the school tax was to take the place of school fees, the argument being at that time that the school fees would never be enough to finatlce edllCation Jn Comer Brook, because of the fact that large num­ bers of persons would be paying no school

438 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS fees because they had no children iti school. Thefefore it was better t_o impose a tax, they argued, and collect no school fees/ Thfie­ fore we made it the case, as we passed Jhe Act here, that where a tax was paid. no_ school fees might be collected. Now, ·since then they have changed their minds again, and they ,vant the right to collect school ta.Xes arid· school fees as well. The Attorney-General tells me I ain talking about another Bill altogether - There are twO bills. Is the other one ready? This is an entire! y different Bill. I am sorry l I apologize to the house. Mr.

Speaker: We had better have the expla­ nation frorri ·someone. Premier Smallwood: Mr. Speaker, under existing legislation "there is provision made whereby taxes may be collected by two ways, by way of a poll tax. or by way of assessment on property. All this amendment does is to make (Jhivision that the greater of the two shall be applicable to the tax - Tbatis all. Hon. M. M •. Hollett (Leader of the Opposi­ tioh): Mr. Speaker, just a word on this School Tax Act.

There has been a lot of hot air generated in Newfoulldland, in certairi sections of Newfoundland over this, in the last two or three years· since the Act 1.vas prOmlllgated; · ,·and I am wondering 'if perhaps there may not be some sections in that original Act which are not only severe qµt very Severe.

I h.ive been· told by various people i_n the;western part of Newfound­ land the_ Act is cruel, it is terrible. _Now I don't think it is ill orderto talk about that at the· momenli Ifthe ban: Minister of Educa­ tion looked at that Act again, perhaps he could see that there are · some further amendments which ffiay be ffiade. 'Only a fe)V days ago there was a _cas~)n coµrt over th)s thing 1 · and I do think· in Ceitairi iri­ stances at 3.ny rate the 1tax is: very high.

This iS Only an ainendment, of course, and we bave nothing against it on this side of tbe libuse. we· all agree, therefore, I should nbt s~y anything at the moment, but I do wish the government would take ano'thei locik at tbe School Tax Act as it applied to western Newfoundland, the·corner Brook area. Premier Smallwood: Mr. Speaker, I don't knciw ifit is in order now or whether what I said before is to be taken as said on the Bill - I was not speaking to this present Bill but speaking to another .Bill. Perhaps it is in order now to speak to this BilL Mr.

Speaker:By leave of the liouse we will allow the Ptemier to speak. ' Premier Smallwood: It is strictly in order, Sir, as I did not speak to this Bill but spoke to another BilL Therefore it i_s surely in order now to speak to this Bill. Mr. Hollett: As long as you keep to tile principle. Mr. Smallwood: In reply to the hon.

Lea.der of the Opposition, I may say the School Tax Act is not a government Act at all, it is an Ad of the people of Comer Brook, and any changes made in it are the changes th_a_t a~e asked for by the people of Corner Brook, and brought into this house by us for the people of Comer Brook, with this distinc­ tion, however. We .do not accept ,any sug­ gested or requested chariges without mak­ ing absolutely certain at the ti~e_ that it is the wish of the people of Corner Brook.

We therefore consult with all the churches, all o_f them 'with0tit exception/all the churches that are recognized in law for school p~_r­ poses; and we make sure that they confiTm completely. · • .

We ·are_ not going to get ollrselves in the same kind of trouble we did before by ac: cepting the wishes _of the pe0ple o~ Col'Il~r Brook only to discover, subsequently, th~t there was a minotity, a very noisy, verr-at"'" iive minority, ,vho setoutto defy the wishes of the great majority and tried to make' µtis liouse; both sides of the house; 1tbe scapegoats in the matter, Anythingivebrihg ih now concerning the School Tax Aci:.-the house can take as_ representi~g .- tliC U_!l,: doubted wishes ofthecciuntry, ihcludingall the churches arid all the schools. !ti tbe first place, the" churchest who-Own the· sCht.mls, are principally concerned.

The whole busi, ness is theirs much more than it is-'o'ufS; So~ if the Leader rif the Opposition is right, Ulat the original School Tax Act, passed.:tv,,o years or three· years ago, needs to .l.xif amended he shoU:ld get thatpbint acros.S}1ol to us, not even .to this house but to the Corrirriuniiyof Ccirner Brook. nOt th_eTib~y, vokiferoUs.. irreccindlible mihorify Who

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 439 hate the Act and will fight and oppose it as long as there is any hope at all of success. Their latest venture -is getting, as their chairman, the Chief Justice of the Supreme CourL I don't know if the vigilantes had any say in this, but there is a notice in the paper toc:Jay of their intention to tender the new Chief Justice a dinner because he is their chairman of something - I don't know whether it is of the vigilantes or not. They arranged the appointment of the chiefjus­ ticC :...-They may even arrange'for Premiers and Leaders of the Opposition to be ap­ pointed.

M,r:.Hollett: Mr .. Speaker, may I interrupt tht! hon. the Premier, and say -he suggests we cbnsult the community in Corner Bro0k. The _government only consulted the Churches. Where do .we fit in? Premier Smallwood: It is not so much a case Ofd1·e· governmen_t consulting the chu'rc_hes asth~ chu!ches crinsulting the governmenc Tlie'churches, as the Leader of the Opposi­ tiq'~ SO well · kriows, own every school in NC:Wfoundland with two exceptions. Orie is the University, which is owned hy all'the pepple of the Provin.ce, through the gov, ern,01ent, or by the goverq.ment in behalf of all,yie people.

The other is t.he Vera Perlin School for Retarded Children. That is purely private. I t.hink t.here is a third school operated ,by a Miss Furlong, I think for small.tots. Therefore, there ar7 three - the Winterton School. There may be. several others, purely private, but with these ex'cep­ tions, all the schools in the Province are ow~e_d_ by the ch_urches," and_ as t~1e owners they:hav~ to be consulted.

As owners of the sch9ols, they have the right, surely, to be heard and to have their · desires made kno\Vt1,1 and to ~ large extent (perhaps not completely b.ut to a large extent} respected in any legislation that is passed in this hOuse.

And as the.School Tax Act is passed only witli the approval - and this fact is not too widely known ..., only with the approval of the churches, (one ofwhich.delayed 1its ap­ proval} we passed iL And I don't think the Leader of the Opposition ought to.ask us to initiate any changes - If he wants changes made he ,should consult the churches and the community.of Corner Brook, whose Act this is. ~otion, that this Bill be now read a second time, carried: On motion, Bill read a second time, ordered referred t_o a ComlTlittee of the WhOie House tomorrow: on· rriatiOn1 _~hat the house go into Commit­ tee of the Whole on various bills, Mr.

Speaker left the Chair: The hon. Attorney General moved .the house into Committee of the Whole to con­ siderthe following Bill: Bill No. II,"

An Act To Amend The Urban and Rural Planning Act". Hon. S.J. Hefferton (Minister of Municipal Affairs}: Mr. Speaker, before we start might I reiterate what I said yesterday. This is not the Bill that was introduced recently' - It is a reprint and contains certaiit cha_nges. 1:fon- M. M. Hollett (Leader of the O pposi­ llon): . Would the minister explain why changes have been made? Mr_ Heffertom Largely because of the larger areas being taken in. _Mr. ~ollettf I do think it is injecting into it, 1£ some governmen.ts·were in power. not this one, some little politics; into the authority.

I don't say they would think of doing it, but you know it is possible ..., I think you will find out as we go tllong. Hon .. J. R. Smallwood (Premier}: Mr. Chairman, every government_ is' political and everything that every government does is political. No government does anything that is not political. That is quite literally true. Mr. Hollett: I take exception to thaL Premier Smallwood: Every act of a gov­ ei:n~e~t _i~ polit~cal. It cannot perfor~ al].y act that 1s not po~i_tical, all the 3cti_ons are: political actions, anywhere, all' of ihem.

Now_.,it_is one thi~g ,to be poli9cal, arid qufte another to b.e partisan. Surely the Leader of ~he Opposition was not st.lggesiing nor hint-' mg that we would be partisan. What is the need of it? What is the need of o_ur being partisan? We represent virtually all the people of Newfoundland virtually the whole population. Being partisan can only mean we are just representing the pfop~e.

440 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS N_o-w, ·seriously, if a goverriment foots the bill, it is only fair, it is only reasonable that it should appoint the people. It is responsible for these boards and should appoint, should have the right to appoint the board riiembership. In fact, our greatest regiet is that; in one very important body, we did not give ourselves the right to appoint the chairman, and we have been r_egretting it ever since, ai;id we think we are doing the right thing here. Most boards are ap­ pointed. I don't know how this particular board is appointed. Mr.

Hollett: Is it appointed by the govern­ ment or the churches? Premier Smallwood: No, the churches have nothing to do with roads and town councils. They only run the churches and schools. That is all they run. That is all they have the right to run. This has to do with town. plan­ ning, and that is a public function which cuts across all the churches. I think the gov­ ernment should appoint the Board and see nci reason why the government should not also select the chairman. The board is there to spend public monies. I agree, I don't see anything wrong with it. Mr. G. Nightingale (St. John's North): Mr.

Chairman, I represent St. John's North. Thereisasewerin Mundy Pond which must be filled in eventually. If the government is going to help - and I can go back to City Council - I hope whoever represents the city oh the Board will see this is done. Any­ body who knows the city as I know it recog0 nizes that nothing but a cesspool lies in front of a beautiful church and convent and school - nothing but a filthy stink hole which should be filled in, and promptly. Premier Smallwood: This does not include the r.fani,cipal Council of St. John's. On Motion, Clause (4) stands.

Motion, that .the Coinmittee report prog­ ress On this Bill and ask leave to sit a:gain, Carried: Hon.'L R. Curtis (Attorney~neral): Mr.

Chairman, .I think most of the other bills have b.een read, and if we just perhaps re­ port .them as passed; BILLS PASSED: Motion that the Committee report having passed Bill 34 with some amendment, car­ ried: Motion, that the Committee report having passed a Bill, "An Act to Amend the New­ foundland and Labrador Corporation Li­ mited Act, 1951," with some amendments, carried: Motion, that the Committee report having passed Bill No. 31, without amendment; carried: Motion, that the Committee report having passed Bill No. 35, with some amendments, carried: Motion, that the Committee report having passed Bill No. 32, with some amendinents, carried: Motion, that the Committe'e report having passed Bill No. 47, with some amendments, carried: Mr.

Curtis: I mqve, Mr. Speaker, that the Committee riset report progress on Bjlls No. 24, and 25, and ask leave to sit again. Oll motion that the Committee rise and re­ port progress, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair: Mr. G. Clarke (Committee Chairman): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole con­ sidered the matters to them referred and direct me .to report having passed the fol­ lowing Bills with some amendment: Bills Nos. 34, 38, 29, 30, 31, 35, and 47. On motion, report received~ Bills ordered read _a third time on tomorrow: Mr.Clarke: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole' have considered the matters l!J them re"'ferred and directed me to report having made progress and ask leave to sit again. Pn motion rep_ort received, Committee or~ · dered to sit again on tomo·rrow :- Mr. Curtis: I move, Mr. Speaker, that the remaining Orders of the Day do stand de­ ferred and that the house at its rising do adjourn until tomorrow Thursday, May 14, 1959, at three o'clock. On motion, all remaining Orders of the Day stand deferred: On motion the house at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, May 14, 1959, at three o'clock.

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 441 Thursday, May 14, 1959 (Afternoon Session) The house met at three o'clock. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Presenting Petitions: Mr. , W. Smallwood (Green Bay): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition fmm the residents of Brighton. The prayer of the petition is fora new bridge. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am familiar with the condition of the bridge. It .is approximately 400 feet long; ,and repairs have to be made. I strnrigly support the prayer of the petition and ask that it be laid on the table of the house and be referred to the department to w~ich it relates.

On motion, petition re­ ceived. Mr. E: Jones (Bunn): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the people of Burin Bay, Lewin's Cove and Ep­ worth in the district of Burin, all within the municipality of the Town of Burin. The prayer of the petition is that the highroad leading from the Cottage Hospital in Bunn tO the inters·ection of the road afBurin"B3.y, a distance of approximately half a mile, whkh is in a state of extreme disrepair and at _present constitutes a danger to vehicular traffic, be attended to this season. I think, Mr.

Speaker, this is the second if not the thi,;d petition that has been presented in thiS house in connection with this same ·piece of road. There is nO great amount of money .involved. The petition is signed by over 200 people in the area. They point out that during last winter the road was in such a condition that the Department of High­ ways lost a.bulldozer. In addition, this road is also used extensively by the workmen who go to and from ihe Bunn Fish Plant. I beg leave to.have the petition placed on the table of the house.

I strongly support the prayer of the petition, arid ask to hilve it received and referred to the department to which it relates; - , Ori m?ti6n, petition received. Mr. A. Mifflin (Trinity South): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf. of the residents of Charlottetown, Terra Nova and Bunyan's Cove, Port Blandford. The petition contains 493 names. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is that this government would un­ dertake at the earliest possible date to have a regional hospital established in this area.

The petitioners point out that at present, more than 800 people are living from 40 to 65 miles away from any hospital. I think the house would recall, Sir, the hon, member for Trinity North, and your humble servant 7xpressed the great necessity for a hospital m that area somewhere, to serve Trinity North and Bonavista South. I heartily en­ dorse the prayer of the petition and ask to have it laid on the table of the house to be referred to the department to which it re­ lates. On motion, petition received.- ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: Hon. F. W. Rowe (Minister of Highways): Mr.

Speaker, I have the answer to a question asked by my hon. colleague, the member for SL John's North (Mr. Nightingale). I don't understand the wording of the question, but it was about pavingthe road from Pouch Cove. What would be the cost of paving the road from Pouch Cove to Torbay? Mr. Speaker, the best estimate the department could give would be that the cost would be approximately $700,000. ORDERS OF THE DAY: LEGISLATION: Hon. L. R. Curtis (Attorney General): Asks leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Labrador Railway Act, 1948".

On motion, Bill read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Mr. Curtis: Asks leave to introduce a Bill "An Act To Authorize The Government of Newfoundland To Enter Into An,Agree­ ment With The Newfoundland Cement Company Limited and North Star Cement Limited." On motiont Bill read a first time, ordered,read a second time on tomorrow. Mr. Curtis: Asks leave to introduce a Bil~ "An Act To Authorize the Government of Newfoundland to Enter Into An Agree­ ment With McNamara Constrtiction of

442 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Newfoundland Limited And Canadian Machinei-y And Industry Construction Li­ mited." On motion Bill read a first time, ordered- read a second time tomorrow. Mr. Speaker: I think I should inform hon. members that it is out of order for any hon, member to rise and walk around the Chamber while the Speaker is putting a mo­ tion. Premier Smallwood: Mr. Speaker, is it not equally wrong to rise on any other occasion whens,the Speaker is speaking? Not only when putting a motion bUtat any time when Mr. Speaker is speaking, it is wrong for any one else to be on his feet. Mr.

Speaker: That is correct. Hon. M. M. Hollett(LeaderoftheOpposi­ tion): Mr, Speaker, may I ask if it is not wrong-for the Premier and the Attorney G_eneral to carry on a conversation while the Speakeris speaking? Mr. Curtis: I say it would be. Mr:Speaker: I have noticed on several occa­ sions that hon. members have risen and moved around when the SJX!aker is speak­ ing. This is very milch out of order. Hon. L. R, Curtis (Attorney General): asks leave to introduce the following Bills: A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The

Summary Jurisdiction Act." A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Industries Act." ABill, "An Act Further To Amend The Companies Act." On motion, Bills read a first time, ordered to be read ac-second time on tomorrow: Hon. W.J. Keough (Minister of Mines and Resources): asks leave to introduce the fol­ lowing Bills: A Bill, "An Act To Restrict Travelling Through Forest Lands". A Bill, "An Act To,Authorize The Government of Newfoundland To Enter Into Agreements With M. James Boylen." On motion, Bills read a first time, ordered read asecohd time on tomofrow. Hon.

C. lL Ballam (Minister of Labour): asks' leave to iittroduce a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend the Apprenticeship Act." On motion, Bill read a first time, or­ dered read a second time on tomorrow. THE FROBISHER ACT: Second Reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Frobisher Limited (Confirmac tion of Agreement) Aci, 1955." Hon. W, J. J!:eough (Minister of Mines & Resources): Mr. Speaker, it was thought it might not be necessary to proceed with this, but the legal people in the departmellt of the Attorney General decided it was nec¢s­ sary in order to tidy up the wording.

In 1955, the house au_thorized a concession for Frobisher Llm,ited in tbe Labrador, bu( i,t was i~ th_ree locations,_notcontiguolls. The concession was for 500 _square miles; aJld the pieces or areas were described in the agreement, (a) (

b) and (c). Frobisher had exclusive ~xp_loration rights for three years, and was required to spend $25,000 a year on exploration work, and had the right at the end of the period to not in excess of 50 square, miles of territory for development. Now, ~hat concession is due to expire Apri,l 5, 1958. I may tell the house ,that by March 1958 the company bad spent $159,000 in exploration of the areas, a~mt t~ice as much as th_ey were required to do, an_d be­ fore __ the expirafion the company,,e~erdsed its right to select.

Then they asked the Gov­ etn"inent if they would C()Iltinue. to canc_es- 5:ion the _area for one more yt;ar, to Aptjl 5, 195~, one area of the conces_si~n only,;which was area (

a) of the concession, _which was 94 squar~ miles in.extent. A pparently.ther~,ai:,e s0me interesting indications therf:, and 4ley wish to ha_ve another look. The_ house was llot _in sessio~ at ttie time an9; the goVem­ ment did not think it necessary to take the time to ~ring the necessary legislation;be­ f~re th~ house on the particular_ area in question.

Frobisher explored thattenitory last year in conjunction with BRINEX, and the date for taking up the territory had ex­ pired and tµey had not ,moved to take up any additional time - and the legal condi; tions for allowing an extention _ _of the con­ cession of 94 square miles for an additional year was accomplished through the proviso that an additional $20,000 would ,be spent on exploration. I think that·abduf covers it, Mr. Speaker, and I m'ove the second· read-

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 443 ing. On motion, Bill read a second tim·e,-ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MEMORIAL UNIVERSITY ACT: Second Reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend the Memorial University Act." Hon. J. R. Smallwood (Premier): Mr. Speaker, there are two particular purposes in this Bill. Section (2) would repeal part of the existing Act an~ substitute something else,,·trierely to grant to_ the University the power to invest furids, the same poWer that a trustee has in the Trustees Act - the house might he familiar with that ..

We think th-e University ought to have· th·e same power that a trustee has in the TriIStee Act~ to invest University funds· - and that is what section (2) does. Sections (3) and (4) otightto he read together. Section (3) would amend paragraph (

f) of subsection (

I) of the University Act of 1952, where the Board of Regt;nts is given a great many powers· - if the hon. Leader of the Opposition would follow carefully he would see that the Board ofRegents in the original Act, (cin page 375, Vol(2) of the Statutes, the Revised Statutes of 1952) - have the power to make rules and regulations pertaining to the Board and'frdm 'tim·e to· time and at all times to have exclusive power and authoritY to exer­ dse'in the riame of, and fat-the Qenefit of, the University Act, as the agent of the Uni­ versity in all or any of the powers attributed by this Act.

That is pretty s\veeping powers for a ·Board Of Regents. Then again, they have pow·er to mairitain an,d keep propel" order arid con­ duct· and niaintain such r:eal pfoperty -as may be necessary for the Use of the Uhiver­ sity and erect_ and mairii:ain such buildings and Structures therebn, as is considered proper and necessary.

Also tliey have au­ thority to let out and expend such sums as may be deemed necessary for the support andfuairitenanceoft9e University etc .• etc.; to improve the exis_ting bitildirigs and the e~~ctfrln ci_f ne\\l build~ngs as the· Board ,may deem p.etessary etc~ Theil agairi, to let out and ·expend sllch suins of m_otley as it· may be expedient fat' ·erection, ·eqtiipnient and furnishings and maintaining of residences for members of the staff of the University etc. Then we come to the one·we presently would amend.

Again referringto the Board of Regents: It shall have the following pow­ ers: To appoint thepresidentofthe Univer­ sity, all the faculty, the librarian, the regis­ trar, bursar, the ·professors, assistant pro­ fessors, lecturers, demonsfrators'and other teachers in· the university, and fix their salaries or remunerations and define their duties and their tenure of office or emp­ loyment; which, uriless otherwise pro\'ided; shall be at the pleasure of the Board etc.

Now, the Act for 1952 goes on and ends with this: The exercise of the· powers given to the Board. by paragraphs so and so, in­ cluding (f), shall be subject to approval of the ~finister of Education. All these powers conferred "upon the Board of Regents, in the Act of 1952, insofar as they are referred to in paragraphs, (c) (d) (e) (f) (m) (o) (

q) and (r), are subject to the approval of the Minis­ ter of Education,·-but that clause, for some unknown reason, was:stricken off in a sub­ 'Sequent amendment to this Act. In fact. the prese·nt amendment is restore, not precisely these words, but to restore it in _respect only of the chief:executive of the University, the head of the University. This present Bill would remain paragraph (

f) but we will strike out the words "president of the Uni­ versity". Now, as· I have said·, that clause gives the Board of Regents power to ap' point the president of the University, all the faculty, the librarian, registrar, bursar, pro­ fessors, associate -professors, lecturers, in­ structors, demonstrators and other teachers and all such officers, clerks, eniployees and servants of the Board - all these.

Now we propose to amend .that by striking out only the words "president of University., so that the Board of Regents continues to have these powers over all the others, all except the president; and the appointnient of the president will He· in the government. The words in paragraph 3, "president of the-Uhiversitt' would be stricken out. Now paragraph (4) saysthatthis would be added: "There shall be a president of the Univer­ sity who shall be appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Councilt in consul~ tation with the Board" - ( that is with ihe Board of0Regents).

In other words, both of these amendme~ts p~_pose to (

a) remove the appointment of the president from the Board of Regents leaving to the Board of Regents all other appointments, (

b) every 0

444 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS thing else connected with the University would be left to the Board of Regents, but the appointment of the president would be made by the government of the day, who­ ever they happen to be, but in consultation with the Board of Regents. Now, I may say that since the University was created, there has been only one appoint­ ment of a presidenL That is to say that the present president is the only president the University has ever had since it became a University, and he was appointed by the present government, and not, I think, by the Board of Regents.

As a matter of fact, I dop't know exactly - (I do know this: Sir Albert Walsh was Chairman of the Board of Regents, and he and I together selected the president of the University, and that is how he came to be president). Now this amend­ m'ent resto_res to the government of the Province the right to select and to appoint the chief executive of the University, and whatever staff the University, (which has to have a staff of several hundred and it is pretty close to that now). whatever staff the University ,has, with the exception of the chief executive, will remain the responsibil­ ity of the Board of Regents.

But the selec­ tion and appointment of the president, the chief ex'ecutive of the University, shall be made by the Lieutenant-Governorin Coun­ cil,,in consultation with the Board. Hon. M. M. Hollett (Leader of the Opposi­ tion): Mr. Speaker, before the Premier sits down, may! ask a question? Who appoints the Board of Regents? Mr. Smallwood: The appointment is made by the government of the Province. The selection is done in accordance with the Act. It is to a:large extent that formal. Now in­ formally, all the respective major religious denominations are requested by the, gov­ ernment to submit suggestions.

For in­ stance, if there are three appointments and they are to represent three major religious divisioris of our population, -the heads of these three would be asked to suggest three names each. :I'ha_t would be nine names, but only three are to be appointed. In other words1. one denomi_nation, know_ing there was to be one appointment, would give the names_ of three. The government in that case wmdd almost certainly select the top name of the three. Another denomination, knowing there was to be one appointment would sub[!Jit the names of three, but nor­ mally the government would select .the top name.

But if there was one that the gov­ ernment did not like and there were two others also recommended by that church, we would feel free to select one of the other two. Mr. Hollett: The Government have done it. Premier Smallwood: We have done it - not too often. Mr. Speaker: Order! I am glad to see the house in s!1ch good humor. Premier Smallwood: The

section of the Board of Regents from the commencement has been done most suitably. I think it will be agreed that in Sir Albert Walsh there was an excellent chairman 1 and in Mr. King the vice<hairman he has also been an excellent man. Virtually, without exception, ·a11 members of the Board of Regents have been very prominent and exemplary citi­ zens who do command the respect of the community. Ifit were not so, we would µot be prepared to leave it in the hands of the Board to select and appoint all the. deans and faculty.

In the first instance, only a few Of the universities across Canada are like, our University, the property of the gov­ ernment of the Province. Most universities are the property of churches or foundati.ons or public bodies over which the government of the Province have but little control. There are some universities other than ours that are owned by the government of the Province, and in those provinces the prac­ tice is, in some cases,for the government _to select and appoint the president and in others it is the Board. We think perhaps jn our case, it should be the prerogative of the government to _appoint.

Now, we don't an­ ticipate having to exercise that authority for many years, perhaps never in our life,_ but some ~ay the government of our Province will be faced with . the situation where another president win have .to .be selected. And we think it should be the government of that day, whoever they are, who shoul<1 select the presidenL Motion is that this BiJI be now read a second time. Mr. Hollett: Mr. Speaker, I must say as I

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 446 listened to the hon. the Premier, I noticed he was slightly Worried. I have been to un­ viersity in the past, a longtime ago now, but I have never been to one that had a political appointment. I venture to say now that any university which is presided over by an ap­ pointee of the government of the day has a very poor chance of becoming the success it was intended to be. I have nothing against the appointment in many cases;.but to ·a university or school Or anything connected with education, 1 think it ought to be set up as far as possible from politics.

If it is going to be a political ap­ poi_ntment, what is to prevent the opposing party from firing the president appointed by the government? Premier Smallwood: The law protects. Mr. Hollett: This law cannot prevent it. In the first instance the Board of Regents are appointed u,pon the recommendations of the various ·deilominations, under the set­ up'irt this co·untry. I realize this is something which has to be. The'various organized re­ ligions -recommend certain ·names and the government would have the right to reject that person's name. I would notsayon polit­ ical grounds, but perhaps for other reasons.

Under_ this agreement, the.government has the authority to appoint the president of the U~iversity, over the Board-_of Regents, a political appointment, be it Liberal or Tory. l don't care if he were a sai'nt, if it is a poHtical appointment he will not be in favour with a good many people who have opposed it politically; and it is not in the best interest of any college or university. It would not be"' on, par with a judge of the Supreme Court.

He must give the law ac­ cordi_ng to the statutes arid interpret that law, and therefore such an appointment by the government makes nO difference, ·if ap­ pointed by a Liberal ora Tory - He simply reads the law. I raise the objection and I cannot agree with the amendment. I dontt think it is essential - necessary, The Board of Regents are appointed on the recom­ mendations of the religious deholilinations, Premier Smallwood: Not the whole Board, The government appoints them al~ except for the few that are selected by the Senate . . t ; Mr.

Hollett: At any rate,,underthe Old Act the appointment of the president is the function of the Board of Regents; and they , are recommended by the various religious organizations. Surely goodness, they can be trusted to select the best man in their own circle. I don't think that the government be it Liberal or Tory or the new party that may be here when I am gone and we are all gone - I don't think the president of the Univer­ sity should be appointed in any such man­ ner.

Now, it was only yesterday - and I was sorry to hear the statement made by the hon. the Premier yesterday, relative to the non-success of the University. I am quite sure he is speaking from facts. I have not had an opportunity to go into the statement he made, hut I am quite -sure he knows exactly what he is talking about; and I am sorry to hear it. I am wondering if the reason for that non~success duririg the past 10 years of the University might not be pos­ sible interference by the government. I just say that to show what could happen, be it Tory Government or Liberal Government or what-not, it could happen.

I feel sure of that and I must oppose the principle therein involved. I think the president ofthe Uni­ versity is somebody who must not be con­ nected at all with politics. In that University you have IOOO·or more students, and it _is a known fact that among these students ifthe president, Mr. John Jones, is an ardent Tory, if you like, or a Liberal, which he will be if a new president is appointed s·oon; it does not tend to generate possiby the right kind of feelings among the students, I feel, Mr.

Speaker, that the government is not doing exactly the rightthirig there; and I would like to recommend to the governs ment that they let the thing stand and check it over. A man appointed as president of the University would be a good man, who would be undoubtedly able to fill the posi­ tion with great merit, but the fact that it is a political appointment, Sir, is objectionable to me. I don't think it is righL I don't think it is starting off on the right foot, to get the university well founded here in Newfound­ land.

Ifwe have not had success in the past, we will have less in the future if we pass this legislation. I do, Sir, raise the objection and cannot agree with the principle involved, Mr. A. M. Duffy (St. John's Centre): Mr. Speaker, I must agree with the Leader of

446 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS the Opposition. It seems to me a position of great importance, and I don't think it is a case to parallel the case the Attorney Gen­ eral mentioned, or any such parallel. I think a university should be·com pletely_removed, aS far as possible, ·from any political influ~ eiice, It seems to me the Board of Regents or Board of .Governors, -in a similar case. would he the ones that would have the most knowledge of the proper selection ,of the president or chairman, as the case might be. It .seems to me to be- a step not in the right direction.

As to other universities, as the Premier mentioned, not many-of them are government owned, and in the very method aS'.employed by other universities I am sure the election.in 99 cases out of I00jt is purely on -qualifications for the position. We ,,had an instance yesterday, of the Uni­ versity,-: unfortunately, being criticized for its extension Work~ Bult Sir, I would suggest that even IQ ·years is not a very long tim_e to set up a proper extension department. There must lie difficulty in getting qual­ ifieclrproperlyqualified men for the job, I imagine.

It: took Sir Francis Xavier more thall ten .·years before their extension de­ •partment was set-up. This is merely an indi­ cation thatitisdangerous, in:myopinion, to have· any possible political interference - althOugh this government may not exercise this with any political intent; nevertheless thereis a danger. If any government bas the powers and authority to appoint a president it will be looked-upon, in my opinion, that it might very: well be exercised the same as other institutions in. Newfoundland where the,·government ·appoints a pfesident ot' 'chairman etc.

I think it would-be detrimen­ tal,-and· niore so in edilcation than in any other field, We all realize it can he political and the reigning powers do. make.their ap­ pointments not necessarily on qualification. We have many cases where qualifications were secondary considerations ·for ap­ pointment. If that should happen in the University, I am very rriuch afraid it will be setting us .back many, many years. Hon. L, R. Curtis (Attorney General): .Mr.

Speaker, l think the house can discotmt any possibility of any government making the appointmertt_on the basis of.politi_cs,'.in-fact, the present president was appointed by the present Board Of _l{egentS in conjunction with the. present government. That will show there was no politics because I don't think the present president of the Univer­ sity had any politics - Certainly be was not looked upon as a Liberal.

But he was ap­ pointed by the Board of Regents in consul­ tation with the government and qy ar­ rangement with the government; because the.government did discuss and fix his.sal­ ary, did discuss the pension rates and all these things. This was all done by the gov­ ernment _in t_he present "instance. And the .very fact that,the present president was ap­ pointed with and through the government s_hows tP,at there woul4 be no politics. Mr, Speaker: If you would allow an inter­ ruption - Could the Attorney General tell us why the necessity for the change? Why the change?

The Board of Regents did it in conjunction with the government before, why can that not stantj.? Mr.Curtis:. Well, Mr. Speaker, 20 years ago the then Minister of Education found ""he had to take steps to appoint every me_ITlber of the staff of the University, and it was quite.a chorej and a chore about whi_ch-he had no particular knowledge. He had ,to accept the recommendatiop.s of the Board anyway.

You will remember that the.sectio_n provided no p_rO motions_ s~ould _be: made nor no appointments should be made to agy ,.positiqn except on the recommen_dation of the president and had to hayeJhe minister's approval in all these- cases,: Now the, presi­ dent has to nominate every one, you see. If you remember readi_ng the

section referred to, the president, the Board of Regents shall appoint the president, all faculty, librarian, etc., professors,.assis!3~t professors,.lectu·r.:. ers, instruc_tors, demoilstrators and; other teachers etc. and all ,such office clerks 'and employees and servants of the Board, as the Board may 'think necessary. Mr, Hollett: That is !be Board of Regents! ; Mr~Curtis: Fix their salaries or remune~a­ Jions. B11t when that was drafted all;these powers had tri be ;,exercised wjth , tlu; .ap­ proval of the minisier - subject to the ap, proval of the minis.ter.

It is .also prq,vi<led that no member. of a11y teaching staffs.hall be,promoted and no member,ofany 1te?-__ c;h­ ing staff shall be removed except on the i:ecomrµendation of the presi.de_nt. So_--__ lµat

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDI.NGS 447 real!y the president_ is th~ man in the Uni­ versity, and for that reason you want to have in his job the very best possible man that you caq get. Now, I do-know in such appointments the larger tbe body consulted the better. I know for a fact how difficult it was to find the president of the University when we ap­ poin_ted the p~esent president. I knmy the Prime Minister (Premier) went, up and down .Canada looking for a suitable man. I ,know that at his request Lwent to Montreal and to Ottawa to .try to find someone who wo_uld lJe a suitable president.

Instead of the president being appointed for political purposes, it seems to me the politicians are going to have to go about seeking a presi­ dent That is what is going to bappen. The shoe is on the other foot. The president has not b_een appointed for political purposes but the politicians have drawn on the .col­ leges and universities to get them.

I went .thrcmgh the various Acts, Mr, Speaker, of the universities of Canada that are owned by the-·province.s; and mast of.those owned by the. provinces have their president ap­ pointed by the .Lieutenant-Governor in CounciLI can state that for a fact4_ I know definitely that Saskatchewan does it. Mr .. _Ho~ett: The government confirms it only? .Mr .. Curtis: No, tbey. do it entirely. They don't consult anyone.They have the tight to .appoiut. Mr. Hollett: Tha.t does not make it right. Mr. Curtis: It shows, Mr. Speaker, that what we are dojng is not original in any way.

It is not-an exception, it is the regularly recog­ nized thing to do. And here we are as a Province about tq spend a huge sum of money, $2~ million on the University: and it it not. only fair and prpper that the govetlj­ ment sh\JUld reserve the right to see that the very best possible, sele~tion is made?_ The Board of Regents is a very restricted bocjy. l suppose, of tbe Board of Regents, very few of them•have ever go11e_outsid~ N~wfound­ land, They are mostly local.men who have their business contacts.

You.have none.who are in tollch with qther pro_vinq~~. in touc·h with other ministers of education, with othe;r- Prime -Ministers, who are in °touch with all those who are in the know. I know this personally & I discussed the matter with the Chairman of the National Youth Coun­ cil in Ottawa- And I would suggest to my hon. friends, Mr. Speaker, if you have in the government people who are inAouch with other provinces, in touch with other ministers of education, in touch with other Prime Ministers, who in touch with all those who are in the ,know in Canada .. I would suggest to my hon. friends, Mr.

Speaker, that members -of government are much more able to make contacts than any mem­ be.rs of the Board of Regents would be and therefore; if matters were not left in ,the hands of the .Senate and Board of Regents; you ,would have a much better chance of having a good selection_ I don'tthink I need refer, Mr. Speaker, to the other sections of this Bill. One

section gives the _University the_ right to invest money in trust invest­ ments. They. should have had that right long ago, Mr. Holiett: Who are tbe University, when you say they should have the right to i.nvest? Mr, Curtis: The Board of Regents, up to now they have _limited investment. It is onJy right. A fund was left to them, .at ~%, and the scholarships to be awarded had to, be discontinued for a number of years du_e to lack of funds, where as hadthey been able to take

part in any _investments that are gone into by governments and _in trustee invest­ ments, they could have. had these things. This is very necessary if they are to get the best yield. the_best retu!ns from their funds. Premier J, R. Smallwo,od (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am afraid the Opposition.have given very little, thought to this Bill. ' Mr.

Halletµ I received it only a few minutes ago. 'Premier Smailwood: .I am afraid the Op­ position have not given very. much thought to it, and I J;ielieve if they gave it more thought than they have done tbey would take a ~ifferent position here as to a_Univer­ sity which is t.he property of the Newfound­ land peop)e or tbe property,of the govern­ ment in .beh.alf of tbe Newfoundland, ~o­ ple, It is goipg to cost the,gavemment, the Newfoundland people a11d governrnen4 a

448 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS million dollars a year, and it won't be many fears before it is much more than a million dollars a year that will have to be voted by this house every year. It is one and a quarter and ·it won't be long before it is one and a half million a year, which is three times as much -threetimesasmuch -asthewhole Bill for all education, under all heads, 20 years ago. The University alone will cost three times as much as all education did in Newfoundland about 20 years ago. And that will have to be voted by this house.

Now, the government already appoints the Board.of Regents -itis true some of them, a' titinOrity of th_em - The Board" consists, you see, of nineteen inembers, and the minority of 1-be nineteen are appointed on the recommendation of churches - Even there, the government haVe some choice in t!-te selection of the representatives of the denomirnltlons because we would not ac­ cept just one name from any of them. The Chancellor of the University is one of them. We appoint him. The Chancellor, Lord Rothemere, is appointed by the govern­ ment; Or whoever he is.

Whoever is Chan­ cellor is selected and appointed by the gov­ ernment of the day. Two members of.the Board of Regents are selected by the convo- • cation (two) and 15 are·appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. Then the Chairman of the Board of Regents is selected and appointed by the government. He is selected by the government -'selected as well as appointed. We select the presi­ dent, the chairman; the · vice--chairman, however, is selected by the Board of Re­ gents - They select their own vice­ chairman. We have all possible confidence in the Board of Regents. I want that to be clear.

We have, the govemmerit have, ·and I be­ lieve that the house has all confidence in ahd respect for the present'Board of Re­ gents so much so that in amending this Bill,, without reference to the Minister of Educa­ tion, we left to the Board of Regents all jurisdiction and all authority to appoint all the faculties. They continue to have that · power, and the librarian a.nd registrar and bursar.

They continue-to have that power, all associate professors, all professors, and lectiirers and instructors· and demoll­ strators and other teachers, all these can­ to be appointments of the Board of Re­ gents, the selection of the president of the University and appointments of the Board of Regents. AU we are proposing to do is to take from the Board of Regents, in part, but only in part - and I would like the house to note that - only in part, to take from the Board of Regents the appointment and selection of the president.

Because, al­ though that was given to the government, the government must do it with the consul­ tation of the Board of Regents. In other words the Board of Regents, for whom we have every possible respect, appoints every person connected with the University, with only one exception and that is the exception of the president. Mr. Hollett: What is the tenure of office? Premier Smallwood: There is no tenure ~ There is no way you ca·n do it.

He ~ there until he dies or retires, reaches the age where he is more happy perhaps to have'a pension than to continue in office on· his salary - Like the Supreme Court Judges, there is no time limit. There may be' a re­ tirement but there is no way in which the government can get rid of the president of the University - but there may be a retire­ ment age, which is automatic. I would like the house to take note that every appoint­ ment on the ·staff of the. University, with One sole exception, is in the hands of the Board of Regents. As to the president, even in his appointment they have to be consulted.

Now that is the case in Alberta. It is the case in New Brunswick. There too it is the g6v­ ernment of the Province that appoints the president of the University. Mr. Hollett: All others are appointed on the rci:ommendation of the presideh.t? Premier Smallwood, By the Board of Re­ gents.

The Board of Regents appoints every member of the staff, academic, clerical, eyery s_ecretary, janitors, and the like are appointed by the Minister of Public Works but all the office, clerical and academic staff are ~ppointed by th~ presidentof the Uni­ versity and the Board of Regents, and the Board of Regents are also to be consulted in the appointment of the president--' but the appointmerU of the president ought to be the prerogative of the government. Mr. Hollett: All the others are Newfound-

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 449 land government appointments, on the re­ commendation of the president. Prelllier SmallwOod: The present presi­ dent was appointed by the present govern­ ment: 'He has selected and recommended scores and scores Of appointments to the Board of Regents. Does the Leader of the Opposition·sincerely think the government ever pad anything in this wide world to do with the naming of the people or selecting of't_he people who were recommended to the Board of Regents by the president?

Does he_ think that president Gush_ue has in anr. instance. in any shape at- form, been ~nfl4enced by the government i~ the selec­ tion or recommendation of the members of the staff? No. That has been the case for 10 years. ls it because the government of New Brunswick selected Colonel MacLeod as the preserit president of the University of New Brunswick that they therefore determine who is to be appointed to the staff?. Mr. A. M. Duffy (St.

John's Centre): It ffieans,,the most impdrtant appointment in the University can be a political appoint­ ment, in other words? ,, Premier Smallwood: If the Premier of New Bru_nswick were So stupid as to do a thing like that - and perhaps he could do it and get away with it for a while -if the Premier of Alberta were similarly ~tupid and wanted to red.uce the office of the president of the University to a low political level, perhaps he could do it and get away with it for a while. And if the Government of New­ fo'ilndll\nd wanted to do it, and this Act pas'~eq. if it passed and beciJ:rnes

an Act - Mr. ~oUett: Surely the Board of Regents is a betterjudge of the president's qualifica- tions than is the Cabinet? · Premier Smallwood: No, all the Board of Regents are appointed by the Cabinet. Does that make them better able to selecfa presi­ dent? The Cabinet is able to select a chancel­ lor, a Bol\rd' of Regents, but suddenly the Board of Regents we ·have ap]lointed are better i_n some\vay or another tO select arid appoint a president. Mr. Duffy:.The Board of Regents should be qualified to select a presiderit. · Premier Smallwood: Quite! Sure! If that were the whole point.

The Board of Re­ gents are b_usy men - Mr. Speaker: Order -1 think any member who wishes to interrupt should rise and ask leave of the person who has the floor. Mr. Duffy: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Pre­ mier one question? In the selection of the Board of Regents in the past, business men, apparently they are not selected on their qualifications, but at least qualifications of educational standards are taken into con­ sideration. Men I have known who are on the"Board of Regents are rrieii of schola.5tic attainment and qualifications. I presume that is one very good reason why they are appointed.

You don't have illiterate meh on the Board of Regents of the University. Premier Smallwood: The men we have on the Board of Regeii.ts, with the exception of the minister from the Depar!ment of Edu­ cation - we have Dr. Frecker, deputy minister of Education, who is on the Board as µle direct representative of the goveni­ ment. Except for Dr. Frecker. the represen­ tative for the department of Education, (whoever he may be), you don't select the members of the Board of Regents because . of their academic and scholistic attain­ ments.

I would not say that it is given no thought at all, but that is not primarily why they are chosen - You don't pick men who are all university men, with univer_sity de­ greeS, riie_n with _the doctorates and masters degrees and all the rest of it. No.

What you need to d.o is - and if you don't do it you go verywrollg - In a place such as Newfound­ land, what you _ need to do in selecting names "to constitute the Board of Regents to operate µtat UniVersity is to ·pick men who ordinarily are not highly exceptional but welle9"µcated m_en; men who hav_e this qual­ ification that they are reputable citizens; th.it ~hey are representative of the citizens; that they know and understand Newfoond­ land. And their main function, I would think, is to keep the University from becom­ Jng jtfst an·, "ivorr toWer".

If you' haVe a B.oard of Regents made up entirely of men who are themselves higlily educated men, uriiverSity rnen, arid men a_f a s_cholUstk type of note, then_t~e University is apt __ to-become just an ivory tower. ·Bi.tt if you have inen

450 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS selected as ordinary, well educated men and well inforriled men, a bit cosm9'politan • .ibit sophisticated, but practical men, New­ foundlanders, because this is a Newfound­ land University, and if it is to serve New­ foundland it .should be operated by practi­ cal minded Newfoundlanders -,- let the staff, the faculty be as academic and scholas­ tic as they like. Now the government has the respollsibility to select that Board of Re­ gents. Mr. Hollett: They are selected by the de­ nominations? Premier Smallwood: I have already told you that, Mr.

Hollett: I know what you told me, but I dOn't believe it. Premier Smallwood: What is it the hon. gentleman does not believe? Mr. Hollett: I am trying to say this, Mr. Speaker. If the United Church if ymi Hke, or any other denominatio~ recomrpend Bill Smith or John Jones to the Board of Re­ gents, the government are going to have to appoint him, nine times out _of ten. Premier Smallwood: One out of three. Mr. Hollett: I do say this - neither die Premier nor_the AuorneyGeneral has as yet answered the question as _to why the change. Why make. it a political appointment? They have not answered that yet.

I presume the appointment is to be one of the Cabinet, ,\/hen the present president resigns. Premier Smallwood: I asked him to tell us what it is he did not believe or could not believe? What is it you canflot ?e,ieve? Mr. Hollett: I can't believe the Government '\vould _ tum down any recommendations m~de by the churches .to the Board of Re­ gents; therefore they select them.

Premier Smallwood: I will tell my hon. friend _:_and then he will know as much as I know - before the Board of Regents, con­ sisting of 15, 16, or 19 members - now I hope he will never make this mistake again ....:.. he is making a serious mistake. Mr. Hollett: The government is making the greatest mistake in its life, in IO years. Premier Smallwood:_ There are 19 mem­ b_ers of the Board of"Regel1ts. Now, if _tht! hon. member illlagi_nes, 3s he appears to d9, that these na,nes are all handed to the gov­ ernment by the churches and we just ap­ point them, then he is making a very serious mistake.

Is that what he imagines? No. Well, that is what he appears to imagirie. That is what he appears to find difficult to believe; that we wquld reject the recommendations of the churches. Now let me tell him the facts; The facts Ure that Iline or perhaps seven or eight represent the churches. How do they get to represent the churches?

I "'.ill tell the hon. gentleman how it is done"Let us imagine there is a vacancy to_morroW, o; the_re was ol1e Yesterday, or next yea:r Jn the ~Oard, and the, vacancy is created by the retiremeri.t or dfath of one who went there when he did as a r:epresentative of so·me particular church. To fill that one vacancy the government would ask th_e denom~q_a~ tion concerned if t_hey would care to _ re.:. commend som,e names of persons _they thought should be able to fill that vacancy. The denomination in question would give three names.

We would ordinarily take the top name bui riot ,always, as the ~~n. gentlemail's own colleague says, not alwiiy_s. There have been times when we took the second or the third name- ·in t,he list: Why not? The total number that all churches cif Newfoundland. have as representatives; 9ui of the 19 are seven or eight. An_d we" do acceJ)t the recommer;id,ations of. tf:J.e churches of those names; and the churcht!s are interested enOugh not Ju;t to h.ind iµ one name but recommend the names of several citizens. The government, has the free choice of pickjngone n.ime from thq"se lists.

The rest are s_elec~ed by the gove_tr1~ ment. We look around; we try to make them representative. We go_ to the Roy~l Ca~a­ di_a_n Legion and ask them_ to recommerid a representative of .the Legion. They loo would be courteo,lls enough to give three ol" four name·s, and we would pick or;ie nam:e from among them. We would ask the Fei:1- eration of Labour, repres_~ntlng the labour movement, for recommendations and from those names they recom·merid we w0U1d select one name. I don't know if we ask the Board of Trade, I am not sure; but wedo try

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS 451 to make the Board of Regents representa­ tive •- and it is we Who do that. Mr. HoUett: Could you give the names of the present Board? Premier Smallwood: No, I could not do that. 'Mr •. Claude Howse is there. I imagine he is there, probably, elected by the Sena.le - The convocation is entitled to select two. Mr. Puddester, the Deputy Attorney Gen­ eral is a member of the Board of Regents. I imagine he is probably there_ as one nomi­ nated.by the United Church of Canada. Mr.

GprdOn Winter is, I believe, the vice­ chairtrliin and I believe J)Ossibly he was orie of thos.e selected by the Anglican Church. _Dr. p.L. _ Pottle preserit. superintendent of the St. John's Mental Hospital. I dare say he represents the Uniteµ Church. W. ]. Lun­ drigan, :he may have been chosen by the convoc3:tion. W. J. Lundrigan of Corner Brook. is there probably selected by the S.al­ vation Army. He is a prominent member of the Salvation Army. M.r. Harold· Pollard, who is the Secretary of the United Church Board of Education-, Fabian O'Dea 1 who1 I believe, is one of the names submitted to us by the Canad