Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 17 (35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-17

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published urukr the authority of The Bono'IUYible Denis C. Rocan Spealcer VoL XLm No. 17 • 10 a.m., Friday, Aprll 29, 1994 JSSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHfON, Steve BARRBTI', Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERD..ll, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMlNGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DBRKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregocy DOER,GBI)' DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerty, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Tun, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. Fll.. MON, GBI)', Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Polltical Alftll ation CONSTII'UENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Rossell Selkirlc Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake BnmdonEast Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY,Neil GIILESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescen twood Gimli HEL WER, Edward R. IDCKES, George KOWALSKI, GBI)' LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATIILIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Tun MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gercy McCORMICK, Norma McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Duren, Hon. REID, DBI)'l REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jercy SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, RosemBI)', Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Osborne Bnmdon West Asainiboia River East Pembina Portage la Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirkfield Parle FlinFlon La V erendcye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

792 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, April29, 1994 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Cbild Care System Mr. Ha rry Sch ell enberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Chris Woloshyn, Ron Steventon, Steven Moldow an and others requesting the Legislative Assembly urge the provincial government to consider restoring funding and acce ssibility to high-quality, aff ordabl e, non-profit child care with decent wages for all child care employees . Curran Contract Cancellation and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Don Mwpby, Belen Faderon, Kris Faderon and others requesting the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Premier to personally step in and order the cancellation of the Connie Curran contract and consider can celling the recent cuts to the Pbannacare and Home Care programs. APM Incorporated Remuneration and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I beg to present the petition of Josie Demedash, Elaine Fraser, Ken Strick and other s requesting the Legislative Assembly urge the Premier to personally step in and order the repayment of the $4 million paid to Connie Curran and her finn, APM lncotporated, and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Phannacare and Home Care programs . INTRODUCTION OF Bll.. LS Bill 207-The Workers Compensation Amendment Act Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton} , that leave be given to introduce Bill 207, The Workers Compensation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les accidents du travail, and that the same now be received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, from 1966 until 1988, fu ll-time municipal firefighters sustai ning an injury to their hearts, lungs, brains or kidneys were presumed to have sustained such injury as a result of their employment as a firefighter. In 1988, the regulation providing protection was struck down by the courts. Since that time , firefighters have been without such dis ability protection. This bill will restore that protection. Motion agreed to. •

(1005) Bill201- The Health Reform Accountability and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg}, that leave be given to introduce Bill 201, The Health Reform Acc ountability and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur I' obligation redditi onne lle en mati�re de refonne de Ia sant� et apportant des mod ifications correlativ es, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, this bill seeks to plug a huge gap in tenns of the Legislature, in tenns of the lack of accountability relating to health ref onn. This bill seeks to provide for accountability by the

793 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1994 government in tenns of its health reform process. This bill will provide for public hearings. This bill will provide for public consultations. This bill will provide for an ombudsman or another individual to intervene in decisions in the health care system. This bill will provide for the release of information and documents for the first time dealing with health reform. Mr. Speaker, it is a very positive bill that will allow the public to have input. It will allow for discussion.

It will allow for information and will allow for accountability by this Legislature for the actions of the government with respect to health care . I am sure all members of the House will join us in supporting this very positive action, The Health Reform Accountability Act. Motion agreed to. Bill 204-The Regulations Amendment Act Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), that leave be given to introduce Bill 204, The Regulations Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les textes reglementaires), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, just briefly, this is actually a companion piece to The Small Business Regulatory Relief Act that we introduced a few days ago. Mr. Sp eaker, since 19 72 the Standing Committee on Statutory Orders and Regulations has been obliged, in effect, to review regulations created by government on an ongoing basis.

For a lot of different reasons, that committee has not successfully done its duty in terms of the review of regulations, and this particular amendment is going to e nsure that small business regulations in particular are sent to that committee, considered by that committee, and there are a number of criteria in the bill that will require the government to consider ways to make sure that regulations are app lied to businesses based on their ability to cope with the regulation.

There will be a requirement to assess the economic impact on small businesses, and it will require the government and the minister responsible for that regulation to be accountable. Mr. Speaker, those are things that I think the small business community want, and I urge all members of the House to support this legislation. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct all honourable members to the loge to my left, where we have with us this morning Mr. Harold Taylor, the former MLA for Wolseley.

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning, sir. Also with us this morning, seated in the public gall ery, from the Teulon Collegiate we have thirty-five Grade 11 students, and they are under the direction of Mr. AI Reinsch. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gim1i (Mr. Helwer). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning. •

(1010) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Tourism U.S. Marketing Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (M r. Film on). Jobs is a very important issue for all of us. One of our industries that is very important in terms of jobs is our tourism industry. We have lost close to 2,000 people working in tourism since the government has been elected, and we have seen a decline in terms of tourism visits from the United States from in 1987 and in 1988 over 400, 000 visits to a number now that is below 300, 000, a loss of some 100, 000 visits from American tourists. At the same time that the government has increased its overall communications budgets in

April 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 794 four or five years by 28 percent, they have decreased their tourism spending in United States markets by some 78 percent. I would like to ask the Premier: What has been the impact in the decline in this priority area in terms of tourism marketing, the decline in the spending in U.S. tourism marketing and increase in overall communications budgets in the province? Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, I do not accept in any way, shape or form the numbers that the member brings to this House, but I do say, what this government has done to encourage tourism to this province have been some major tax relief and some of the activities that have been carri ed out by this government in seven budgets now without increasing any major taxes, sales tax, corporate tax, creating an environment where people can, in fact, compete in their businesses, whether it is tourism, manufacturing or anything else. We look forward to expanding the tourism ministry significantly over the next year or so. Tourism U.S.

Marketing Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, and maybe the minister will not accept the numbers, but he should know that those are his numb ers. They were handed out under his signature in terms of the Tourism Outlook book in 1994. 1bey were contained in a Conference Board report that his department commissioned for Manitoba Tourism Outlook in 1994, so I know he does not read his material, but he should know that they are his own numbers. 1be Lotteries budget for advertising in 1987 was some $350,000.

It is now running, at 1992, at $1.2 million and the gove rnment has now added another $500,000 to its advertising for its latest advertising activity, and even every newspaper in Manitoba has massive ads from the provincial government. Why has this provincial government decreased the spending in advertising to attract people to Manitoba, decreased the number of dollars being spent by 70 percent on advertising for bringing people to our great province, and increased by fivefold their advertising in Lotteries to promote the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba? Bon.

Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Man itoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, I can advise my honourable friend the Leader of the official opposition that a significant part of the Manitoba Lotteries corporation advertis ing, not government advertising, Manitoba Lotteries corporation advertising, is directed at U.S. markets on a joint basis to attract Americans to visit our facilities here in Manitoba.

In terms of the awareness program, as I have indicated previously, a large number of calls that come to the Manitoba Lotteries corporation are calls to find out where the money goes. 1bey want to know where the money goes, notwithstanding the fact that it is contained in the Estimates of the government. They still want to know, so as a result, the Lotteries Corporation is responding to that request to the public by advising them where it goes. Tourism U.S. Marketing Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Spe aker, we have a situation no w where government is spending close to $2 million inside our own province to promote the good work of the Conservative Party, alleged ly, and at the same time we are spending less than $40,000 in terms of advertising in the United States. Now, this is a billion-dollar industry; tourism is a billion-dollar industry. We have lost 2,000 people working in that industry from 1988 to 1994. Will this Premier reallocate the priorities and spend more of our marketing dollars on pr omoting our great province rather than promoting the Progressi ve Conservative Party in Manitoba? Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will tell you one thing. Nobody is ever going to tum to the Leader of the Opp osition for promotion of our province.

795 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1994 Nobody in the history of this Legislature has ever taken such a negative, black, critical view of this province and its people as that member and the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), who runs around the province, who puts her name out on folders in the United States trying to convince people not to come to this province, promoting negativism all the time, des troying jobs, destroying economic opportunities and in every way, shape and form speaking negatively about this province. That is a tragedy- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. •

(1015) Point of Order Mr. Jerry Storie (F6n Flon): On this potentially auspicious occ asion you would hope that the First Minister would provide some leadership and at least provide correct information to this Chamber. He knows full well that the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) was not in any way connected with the pamphlet that he is talking about. He continues t� Mr. Spea ker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. That is clearly a dispute over the facts. ••• Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, I am doing a service to the people of Ma nitoba by pointing out the negative, doom-and-gloom app roach of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and every one of his members. They have been more critical, they have been more damaging to Manitoba's interests than any people who have ever sat in this Legislature by continuing to worlc against job creation, against investment, and even attempting to discourage people from coming to this province. They ought to be ashamed. They ought to hang their heads in shame. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, the Premier's attempt to substitute personal invective for policy is one of the disgraces to Manitoba. Post-Secondary Education Government Policy Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, this gove rnment has reduced operating grants to universities for the last three years to the tune, for the University of Manitoba, of over $11 million. Yet. in spite of the Roblin commission, in spite of appointing members to the UGC, in spite of appointing members to all the boards of governors, after six years there is no public policy on the future of universities from this government.

The only conclusion that we can draw is that the policy is to reduce the size and reduce accessibility . I want to ask the Minister of Education: Will he confirm today that that is their clear goal for universities in Manitoba? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I categorically deny the assertion made by the member for Wolseley. We are at this time reviewing the recommendations of the Roblin report.

We fully expect to be making as a government a public statement with respect to a number of those recommendations, but certainly one thrust particularly dealing with some of those recommendations that are purely within the area of universities themselves will be a greater challenge to the university community through our province to integrate some of their aff airs, because we are long past the time where every institution can offer training in all areas. Obviously, this will be one of the challenges put out to the univer sity co mmunity within our province. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Speaker, the universities do know that next year they will have no choice but to cut programs. I want to ask the minister: Will he tell the House which programs his representatives on the boards of governors of the universities are expecting to cut? What is the public policy direction to those members on those boards that is coming from this government? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, what I find kind of strange about the question is simply that most -

April 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 796 people in the real world understand that during these times difficult decisiom have to be made. Certainly, this government has been dealing with that for four or five years. What I find even more supportive of our app roach is the head of the students at the university also recognizes that large administrations have to look inte rnall y. The only people that seem not to understand that fact are the members who sit to your left. So, Mr.

Speaker, the real world dictates that all public-funded institutiom have to look inte rnally to try and deal with the very real reality, the reality of having to deal with decreased funding during these periods of times. Now, this is not Alberta, where there was a 21 percent reduction to universities over three years. What we have been dealing with is reductiom on the margins. We have had to deal with it as a government. Corporations and households have had to deal with it across the land, and I dare say, all public-funded institutions are going to have to deal with it also. •

(1020) Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, well, we know what public choices this government has made in education. Funding Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I want to ask the Minister of Education now to take those thousands of education dollars that he has put into Kentucky Fried Chicken, Pepsi-Cola, ffiM, Budget Rent-A Car, Bob Kozminski, lottery advertising, take that public money and put it into the public education system. Bon. Cla yton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, all the venom in the question of the member for Wolseley will not be able to distract from the fact that $1 billion has gone into public education in this province, $1 billion. That has been on the backs of all of those citizens of our province who have had to deal with markets and indeed with earnings, who have had to pay by way of consumption taxes and income taxes, all of that amount of money. Mr. Speaker, the reality is, what the member is wanting is to charge and tax the living daylights out of our citizens, and we will not do it We will not do it. That is what the members want.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Are we done? The honour able member for Wol seley and the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon), if you want to carry on with this discussion, you can do so outside the Clamber. Right now, we are going to move along with Question Period. Post-Secondary Education Funding Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Oppo sition): Mr. Speaker, I was very interested in the minister's comment that the government is reviewing the Roblin commission report, because they have already in fact breached it on fairly substantial areas with respect to their budget . Mr.

Speaker, I want to start by quoting page 92 and the recommendation under

Chapter 11, specifically that report states, "across-the-board undergraduate tuition fee increases be avoided and that the present level of tuition fees be maintained." The budget contained a breaching of that recommendation with a 5 percent cap, but worse, today we learn that the Univer sity of Manitoba, through so- called student fees, is going to be adding a further $50 on average for a full course load on the average studen t at the University of Manitoba. My question for the minister is: Clearly, this adds insult to injury, Mr. Speaker, with this further increase.

It ex ceeds the 5 percent cap, which was bad enough in and of itself. What is the minister planning to do to deal with the University of Manitoba on this clear breach, in our view, of the Spee ch from the Throne, at least in spirit if not in letter? •

(1025) 797 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1994 Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am having trouble deciding where the Liberal policy is on this iss ue. I know what the NDP policy is. They want free tuition to students and, indeed, they want higher and higher salaries for all those who wotk at the university. That is the NDP and, of course , the highest taxes. As far as the Liberals, we did not dictate that universities should impose a 5 percent increase on tuition. We capped it for the second year in a row.

I dare say, the student union groups who I have had an opportunity to dialogue with respect to this issue are very sup portive, very supportive that we put these caps into pla ce. I am led to believe we are the only province in Canada that has caps in place, and we did that, of course, because we sensed exactly what would happen flowing from the question from the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) that indeed if we did not put these caps in place then, in these times of reduced funding, what would happen is, the administration would just go and rip it away from the students.

So that is why we pu t the caps into place, but we did not dictate that the university had to increase it by 5 percent. We were hoping that they would freeze it at zero, but there was a cap in place . Now, the member says we are outside the bounds of the spirit of the recommendation. I say , we are right in keeping with the spirit of the recommendation, because we have held down tuition to the students of our universities . Mr. Edwards: This minister has read that report , Mr. Speaker. Let me give you one more of Mr. Roblin 's statements: Across-the-board cuts are the road to mediocrity. That is what Mr.

Roblin said. This government did not just put in their so-called 2. 7 percent cut; in fact, it was 3. 7 across the board to those institutio ns. They breached it when they put those cuts into place , and they put us, clearly , on the road to mediocrity .

Now, I would like the minister to stand up and tell the students of this province how they are go ing to maintain access to post-se cond ary education, which every rational economic growth plan tells us is essential to economic growth, how this government is going to achieve that with acro ss-the-boa rd cuts to these institutions which clearly result in increases of at least 5 percent and in excess of 5 percent this year to the students . Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker , what we have here then, we have a Leader of one of our provincial parties saying that money guarantees excellence .

That is the essence of the question. If he would read all the recommenda tions, what Mr. Roblin said was: Until the universities come to grips with their own problems inte rnally, freeze the level of fundi ng. That is the essence of the question. The member pwpos ely leaves that out. Mr. Speaker, our global funding to universities was down 0.6 percent. It was flat, in keeping with the recommendation of the commission. So the mem ber purposely selects one of the recommendations.

If he wants to take all of them into context, he will see, basically, we have kept everything that is in place, and we will be coming out with a policy statement and indeed a charge to universities flowing from the recomme ndations that are contained within the report . Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, that is right. Monies available for students do deny access to education. That is what this is about, and it does come down to money when students cannot afford to go to post-secondary education. Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister: Why, if he is reviewing this report, did he specifically go against Mr.

Robl in 's recommendation and statement that across-the -board cuts are the road to mediocrity? Why has he put us on that road? Mr. Manness: Mr. Spe aker, I look at the recommendation that sa id that funding to universities, until we come to grips with the reality, that we are offering too many courses, that we had to, firstly, ask our universities to integrate their services. I put the fo cus on there.

- April 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 798 If the member says that 0.6 percent down is across-the-boar d cuts and if he is saying mediocrity will result from that, I say to him that his definition that mediocrity as a result of a fraction of a percentage down, then I dare say that he is trying to make political gain with respect to a number dealing with a fraction. Mental Health Care Emergency Services Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kndonan): Mr.

Speaker, when a recent documentary and public outcry was heard respecting the line-ups at emergency roo ms, particularly as they relate to psych iatric patients , the minister promised action . I would like to ask the minister today : What action has he taken to alleviate the problem, parti cularly as it relates to psyc hiatric patients in the line-ups in emergency rooms? •

(1030) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have been very pleased over the comse of the last fe w months to be involved with consumers and providers of mental health services in a number of announcements which indicate a change in direction in mental health in Manitoba. We have been providing in communities in Manitoba a variety of services that have never existed bef ore in places in Manitoba where people have never had mental health services before. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) will rec all, we announced acute care beds for Thompson as well as se rvi ces in the community.

I believe there were about 40 health care jobs involved in Thompson. The member for F1in Flon (Mr. Storie) and the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) will recall an announcement for the Norman region respecting acute care beds in that area and other community serv ices, I think in that case amounting to about 20 jobs. In the Eastman and Interlake area, we were pleased to announce Crisis Stabilization and other co mm unit y-based menta l health servic es, amounting to some 28 jobs. The honourable member for Selkirk (Mr.

Dewar) will recall a visit I made to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre and talked about the future of that centre and the fa ct of how pleased we are that we are going to finally in Manitoba have a secure foren sic unit. Throughout the city of Winn ipeg we have been announcing changes in partner ship with the Canadian Mental Health Association, the Salvation Army and many other consumer groups in provision of community-based mental health serv ices. Mr. Cbomiak: Mr. Speaker, I can advise the minister, I read all those press releases over and over again and those photo ops that he attempted.

But how can the minister say action is taking place when as recently as the day before yesterday three psychiatric patients were lined up in the hallway of St. Bo niface Hospital? One was in the grieving room, one was in an office and one had been there for at least two days, Mr. Speaker, waiting for service and waiting for a bed. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member fo r bringing those issues to my attention.

I will look into them immediately and make inquiries as to how those circumstances occurred, but I do say to the honourable member that part of the whole thrust here is to try to ensure that consumers of health services and mental health services are aware of the community-based services that are available. Attached to Sara Riel, we have, Mr. Speaker, a crisis stabilization unit in SL Boniface that is also there to help to take pre ssur e away from emergency rooms, but I will be glad to take under advisement the spec ific cases to which the honourable member referred. Mr.

Cbomiak: I thank the minister for that respo nse. It is the same one he gave to a radio station that did a documentary on this issue at least three weeks to a month ago, Mr. Speaker, and obviously nothing has been done. (Mrs. Louise Dacq uay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair)

799 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri129, 1994 My fi nal supp lementary, Madam Deputy Speaker, is: Does the minister not realize that these five patients who are waiting in the hal lway, one for at least two days, require full- time, 24-bour care by extra staff after this government bas closed beds, laid off nurses, require full-time, 24-bour care, constant care by additional st aff to look after these patients? This no way resembles any kind of health reform. Is the minister aware of that fac t? Mr.

McCrae: Madam Deputy Speaker, in a health care system which deals with crisis circumstances day in and day out in our province, I am sure the honour able member will be bringing to my atte ntion specific incidents, but those specific incidents need to be looked at and reviewed and steps taken to try to prevent problems fr om occurring in the first place.

But, Madam Deputy Speaker, the honourable member cann ot suppo rt mental health ref orm on the one band and then use a situation of the kind be bas ref erred to, to try to bring discredit to a system that is chan ging, and changing for the better for consum ers of health care in Manitoba. For 20 years, governments in this province hesitated and did not move with respect to mental health ref orm.

Thanks to my predecessor, the people in the menta l health syste m in Manitoba and the consumers involved, we are worlcing toward a far, far better system of mental health delivery than we have ever bad before and, without doubt, the best in the country . Youth Crime Summit Recommendations Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice . Following the min ister's summit on youth violence and crime about five months ago, the minister accepted just nine proposals of over 700 re comme n dations from that summit.

She apparently rejected the dominant message from that summit, which is that there bas to be a new era of youth and family supports and that government policies have to be measured by their impact on fam ilies. Once again, as she did with the task force on drugs, the minister turned her back on hundreds of volunt eers who gave freely of their time and advice. My question is: How can this minister justify her comments at the conclusion of the s umm it when she said to Man itobans, please watch and listen , you will bear again what you said today, in government annou ncements you will bear what you said today?

How can the minister justify those comments, given the mere nine points that survived at the bands of this government? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General}: Madam Deputy Speaker, the issue here is youth crime. This government has a nine-point plan for youth crime, and I ask both other parties: Where do you stand? We have not beard one word of support from these other parties. I took to Ottawa on behalf of this government and the people of Manitoba the toughest-[interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The clock is runnin g. Whenever you are ready.

The honourable member for St Johns, with his subseq uent que stion. I apologize. The hon ourable Minister of Justice, to complete her answ er. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Deputy Speaker, again, I pick up where I left off bef ore the members attempted to simply continue sho uting and fai led to take a stand on the issue of youth crime and violence. At this point, I challenge the critic for Justice from the New Democratic Party, the critic for Justice from the Liberal Party. Both of their Lead ers, stand up.

Tell us where you stand on youth crime and violence and tell the people of Manitoba where yo u stand on the You ng Offenders Act. - -

- Apri129, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 800 Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, we did not rise on a matter of order when the minister was given a second chance to try and answ er the que stion, but our rules do require that answ ers be brief and relate to the matter raised. This minister is comistent and has refused to answ er any of the questions asked by our member. We would like the minister to fo llow the rules and finally answ er some of those que stiom . Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member for Thompson does not have a point of order. Youth Crime Prevention Programs Mr. Go rd Mackint osh (St. Johns): It is unf ortunate, Madam Deputy Speaker, that with such a serious issue as rising youth crime in this province, we have yet to see any program put in place by this minister fol lowing her ann ouncement of the nine-point pl an. I ask the minister: Will she please get on from her talk and just start taking care of business and restore Manitobans' confidence in our justice system ? Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Deputy Speaker, of course, as the member well knows, the nine-point plan dealt with the major issues that wer e brought forward by Manitobans at the summit for youth crime and viol ence. As the member knows-but, of course, be did not attend -we alre ady have held the ASAP conf erence that was held April 7. That was a program in which fron t-line workers, teachers and community services workers were trained to deal with these issues in the front line . I come back to challenge the members on the other side.

This government, Madam Deputy Speaker, bas moved and moved quickly ·in the area of youth crime and viol ence. We have bad the toughest position on the Young Offenders Act, and we have taken a position in the area of correcti om. The member for the Liberal Party suggested that our tough positions in the area of boot camp were simply an immoral attempt to pass it by voters. Well, we know that the pe ople of Manitoba support a tough stand, and the members on the other side all voted against it. We know where they stand, Madam Deputy Speaker. They voted against the throne speech. •

(1040) Youth Court Backlog Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): It is no wonder Manitob ans are fed up with talk, Madam Deputy Speaker. Just to correct the record, the minister should kno w that I took full

part in the summit deliberati ons and, indeed, the nine-point plan really was at the periphery of the discussions. I was there, unlike the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), who did not even register fo r the summit. My que stion, Madam Deputy Speaker, is: Will the Minister of Justice finally take- Some Honourable Members: Ob, ob. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I am ex periencing great diffi culty hearing the question. The honourable member for St. Jobm, to pose his question now, please. Mr.

Mackintosh: Madam Deputy Spe aker, my question to the minister is: Will she now put in place as a first step in dealing with rising youth crime an emergency plan to deal with the historic backlogs in the youth court rather than spend $1 million on eight judges so that they do not deal with the backlog? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Deputy Speaker, I will not deal with the last part of the member's question as the Speaker yesterday reminded the member that this is part of an issue of privilege which the Speaker is dealing upon, and I would have to remind the member again.

801 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1994 Let me also say to the member, Madam Deputy Speaker, where he did not attend was the first step already accomplished in the nine-point plan of the ASAP conf er ence, which trained fr ont line workers, teachers, and community services worlcers in the area of dealing with youth crime and viole nce. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a plan, not only a plan but action. 1be intervention team is already meetin g, and we have already taken our position to Ottawa on young off enders.

In the area of correction we are already progressing to more rigorous confinement in the youth area as well as the adult area, where we have had absolutely no support in fighting the issue of youth crime and violence from either one of the opposition parties, not one shred of support. The people of Manitoba are asking: Stand up and also support the initiatives on youth crime and violence . Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: I ask the minister to correct the record and confirm that the meeting on April 7 was planned long in advance of the summit It did not fo llow the nine-point plan.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. 1be honourable member for St Johns does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the fac ts. Recycling Programs Industry Responsibility Ms. Marianne Cer ilfi (Radiss on): Madam Deputy Speaker, after waiting for six years for a compre hensive recycling strategy in Manitoba, the government's stewardship initiative is teetering on the brink, and we want to make sure that the government is going to live up to its commitment to bring in an industry -paid program.

My question for the Minister of Environment is: Is the minister committed to ens uring that municipalities will not end up bearing the cost for a waste reduction recycling program in this provin ce, and what is he going to do to e nsure that this is not going to happe n? Bon .

Glen Cumm ings (Minis ter of Environment): Madam Deputy Speaker, as I ind icated previously and publicly on several occasions , one of the concerns that we have had in negotiating a voluntary program for improvement to the removal of household recy clables in this province is that we want to make sure that we do not enter into a program that has a possibility of having an open-e nded liability for the municipalities of this province.

I ass ure you that as we implement the WRAP act and deal with this in a very fo rthright manner that we will be able to accommodate the concerns that have been raised and at the same time deliver the volumes that are expected and provide the service that the peo ple of this province are now asking for. Ms. Cerilli: Madam Deputy Speaker, on April 22 I raised the issue of weakening the regulations, of making sure that there are levies into market developm ent and community participation into the stewardship program.

I would ask the minister: Are these the stumbling blocks for industry and, if not, what are the stumbling blocks so we can make sure that they are going to be taken care ofl Mr.

Cummings: Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the most critical aspects of our negotiations has been the respon sibility of the industry in terms of accommodating the volumes of material and the cost of recove ring the material. 1be negotiations have reached the stage where who controls the dollars and the volume of those dollars are still in question, and I have decided, in con jun ction with my colleagues, that the commitments that we made to this province to roll out a recycling program this summer will occ ur.

The only way that is going to occur is if we use the regulations under The Waste Reduction and Prevention Act; and that is the trail upon which we are embarlcing. Community Involvement Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radiss on): Madam Deputy Speaker, my final question to the same minister: I believe that if the minister would

- Apri1 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 802 involve the community in this that they could act as both an assistant to developing consensu s, and I would ask if the minister would commit to having community groups at the table as equal partners under the stewardship model so that there can be a consensus and we can have a proper program to make sure that waste reduction will begin in Manitoba as it could. Hon.

Glen Cu mmin gs (Minis ter of Environment): Madam Deputy Speaker, a model that we have that is working very well in the province today is the used tire recycling program, whereby we have industry representation, we have community representation, and the government is ex ercising its responsibility under The Waste Reduction and Prevention Act. I would indicate to the member that I am not about to appoint another consultation committee. I am app ointing an action committee to put this plan in place, and we will involve the community and the nonprofit organizations in that committee .

Rural Surgical Services Committee Representation Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): My question is for the Minister of Health. I would first like to indicate that I understand that be bas all owed the hospitals to accomplish their 2 percent reduction, other than looking at Bill 22. If that is the case, then I congratulate him and app reciate his flexibility . My question for the minister is in regard to a rural surgical services committee which bas a terms of reference to look at the future of surgical se rvices in Manitoba.

A conc ern bas been ex pressed that the repre se ntation on this committee, that there are very few members from rural Manitoba. I am wondering if the minister can tell this House: How are the needs of rural Manitoba going to be met when of a group of20 people, only three people represent rural areas? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, just for clarification, I wonder if the honourable mem ber-1 did not bear what she said, which committee she was talking about. Ms. Gray: For clarif ication, Madam Deputy Speaker, it was t he rural surgical services committee. Mr.

McCrae: I thank the honourable member for the question. I met yesterday morning with the Manitoba Health Organizations and a number of its members to discuss the issue of their potential application of Bill 22 and bow they might help us achieve the kinds of efficiencies we need to achi eve in our facil ities system here in Manitoba. I clarified for the organization and its members that we recognized that not every facility is exactly the sa me in its ability to respond to such a chall enge. It is not the same for every single organization.

We ap preciate that Health Sciences Centre and Grace Hospital have been able to do that and, on the basis of that, we asked other institutions to look at their possibilities, to make pr oposals to us, and we expect to be bearing from them with respect to proposals in the near future. Madam Deputy Speaker, with respect to the other part of the question dealing with rural representation on a surgical committee or any other kind of committe e, we like to ensure that rural Manitoba is indeed properly repre sented.

I will look again at the list of people involved to ensure that rural Manitoba is prope rly represented It is my view that sometimes it is not the quantity but the quality of the pe ople you put on committees, but I will review that matter. Ms. Gray: There is no question that the quality of the representation is there, but there is concern about the number of representati ves, and I am quite prepared to table the committee list fo r the minister.

I wo uld ask the mi nister: Be cause this committee is actually developing an interim report which is to be completed today, can be assure this House and those individuals in rural Manitoba that if the surgeons and the individuals in rural

803 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April29, 1994 Manitoba are not pleased with what is in the interim report, because it is basically urban people on this committee, will he allow that committee to change the representation, to go back to the drawing board and actually come up with the needs of surgical services in rural Manitoba that are in fact reflective and that in fact the committee should be almost all rural representatives? There are just a few departmental staff on this committee. •

(1050) Mr. McCrae: Well, the honourable member would know I like people to be pleased and that is the business we are all in, to tiy to make people pleased, but we are also interested in making sure that their needs are being met. One of the real ities about teams of people, specialists who we ask to apply their experience and knowledge, one of the realities in Manitoba is, a lot of that congregates in the city ofWmnipeg, as the honourable member would know.

That is exactly why I am so very happy that through our neg otiations with the Manitoba Medical Association we have been able to strike a physician resource committee which for the first time will give us the kind of power we need, worldng together with the profession and others to ensure that we have the kind of medical expertise that we need throughout the province. So this committee's work is important, but the work of the physician resource committee will be extremely important to the futur e of rural Manitoba. Health Care System Reduced Work Week Ms.

Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Madam Deputy Speaker, since the minister certainly likes to please and he is in a benevolent mood today, I would certainly then ask him a third question and that question would be: Is he prepared to work with rural Manitoba hospitals and the Home Care program to e nsure that home care staff do not have to take Bill 22, do not have to take days off so that in fact people who are prepared to go home from hospitals and are being discharged can actually be discharged on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays and do not have to be in hospital four days longer, which is a cost to the system and a human cost to the families?

Is he prepared to reverse that? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): One of the pr oblems with many of the services provided through government funding or directly by government is that some of our services are not good enough on weekends. Seven Oaks Hospital recently attempted to tiy to address that matter by using the services of We Care Home Services on a pilot basis, and we found that the kind of flexibility that arrangement aff orded was very pleasing to our fellow citizens who need home care services on weekends. I was very, very sad when the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr.

Chomiak) and his Leader and all his colleagues came out flatly against that, even though the clients, the patients, the people we are all here worldng for favoured that idea. Madam Deputy Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. House Business Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): On a few items of House business, Madam Deputy Speaker, first of all, I would like to table the order of Estimates. Also, there has been agree ment amongst House leaders that on Monday, May 2, consideration of Estimates will begin with Executive Council in the Chamber, and Health in Committee Room 255.

On Thursday, May 5, the Public Accounts committee will meet at 10 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. in Room 255 to consider Volumes 1, 2 and 3 of the 1993 Public Accounts and the Provincial Auditor's Report for 1993. On Friday, May 6, Madam Deputy Speaker, the House will consider condolence motions for fonner members of the House who have passed away. Tuesday, May 24, the day following the Victoria Day weekend, will be considered as a Monday; we will sit Monday hours. Thank you. -

- April 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 804 Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, just on House business, I was going to ask the government House leader, knowing we are going to go into the Estimates on Monday, I think it would be an appropriate thing to have so me of the Supplementary Estimates, in particular for the Department of Health and Executive Council, and I would seek the assurance that we would have that tabled prior to the House adjourning today, or otherwise maybe what we should be doing is resetting the agenda for Monday. Mr.

Ernst: Madam Deputy Speaker, the member raises a very valid point. We will try and either have them available later today. Failing that, certainly we will have them delivered as quickly as we possibly can to the critics and to the other caucuses. Madam Deputy Speaker, also, of course, we suspect the Department of Health will not be over in one day either, in terms of consideration of their Estimates. We will have them available as soon as we can . ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Eighth Day of Debate) Madam Deputy Speaker: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Fmance (Mr.

Stefanson) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Opp osition (Mr. Doer) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards) in further amendment, standing in the name of the hon oura ble mem ber for Br andon East (Mr. Leonard Evans}, who has 16 minutes remaining. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Deputy Speaker, this budget, which is the seventh and probably the last budget that this particular Legislature will see, contains two major messages.

One message is that we have a further contraction in social services, in health and education, and the second message is that it is a continuation of the economic philosophy of trickle-down economics which has failed miserably over the past six, seven years. Madam Deputy Speaker, the facts are there. The economy has not grown, we have had increasing unem ployment. And this budget also petpettates a myth that we have a tax free ze, we have had the longest-running tax freeze in Canada. This is a myth that has been petpettated by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and his colleagues.

The facts are that we have had serious tax increases on the people of Manitoba, and I refer you even to last year, if you look over the years, but even last year the sales taxes were extended to cover more goods, everything from Big Macs to personal health items. In fact, according to their own documents, the gov ernment estima ted collecting $48 million more last year, in a given year, year after year and increasing with inflation, because of the extension of the sales tax. They increased user fees.

There is a long list of user fees that have been increased, everything from fees to obtain environmental licences, to various health department fees, drivers' licences, automobile and carrier licences, taxicab fees, law fees-that was a big one-land titles fees, personal property, security regis tration fees, Public Trustee's fees, recoveries from municipalities, labour permits and on and on and on. There was a 43 percent increase in fees across the board, and these are hidden taxes, Madam Deputy Speaker. The fact is, this is not a free ze, this is an increase.

On top of that, we have seen tax credits dissolved with this government. Last year property tax credits were dissolved. The estimated increase on property taxpayers was roughly $53 million to $54 million. In addition to that there has been the omoading of costs onto municipalities, and I think of the rural municipalities now that have to look after PRs in their districts that they did not have before. This is real cost transfer to those municipalities.

All kinds of technical services that used to be provided by the provincial government are now no longer available to the municipalities and they have to go out and contract their own or pay whatever costs there are for those techni cal services. So there is a shifting of the burden onto municipalities. There is a shifting of the burden

805 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1994 onto property taxpay ers, and there is a shifting of the burden onto everyone in tenns of extension of the sales taxes . Another comm ent I would make after the seven budgets of this government, it has failed to live up to the promises that it made, that this party made when it first sought election in 1988. Where is the economic growth that was promised by this government? What we have had is growth that has always been below the national average.

It has been a situation of stagnation, of economic weakness to the point that we have lost more people than ever bef ore in inter provincial mi gration. Th e amount of loss through interprovincial migration since this government took office well exc eeds 47,000 people; 47,389 people accor ding to Statistics Canada lef t Manitoba compared to those coming in. In other words, this is a net loss of people over that time. • (1 100) The government has also fa iled to live up in tenns of deficits.

We have had deficit after deficit after deficit, to the point that since this government took office there has been a full one-third increase in the debt per capita of Manitobans. In 1989 the debt per capita was $8,990. According to this budget document the estimated debt per capita in '94-95 will be $12, 592. This in effect is a 33 percent increase in the debt burden of Manitobans since this governm ent took office, and I can appreciate the difficulties they have had in tenns of not obtaining the revenu e. This is what I was saying yesterday.

Probably the biggest fail ure that the government has had to contend with is the failure of revenue increase, and the revenue increase has not materi alized because the economic growth has not been there . The fact is, this reflects then on the government 's economic pol icies, the fa ilure of the poli cies to stimulate the growth to create the jobs so people can earn incomes and therefore pay their share of taxes. They are not going to pay many taxes if they are unemployed or indeed worlcing under the threat of unemployment. We can go on and on about promises of this governm ent.

One that specifically amuses me, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the whole matter of the payroll tax. You know, we listened ad nauseum when the members opp osite were on this side of the House saying that the payroll tax was unfair, the payroll tax should not be imposed. We imposed it as a health and education levy because the money was nee ded for health and education matters . It was a matter of providing sufficient revenue to ma intain our health system, to maintain our educational system, yet we were criticized for it. The now Premie r (Mr.

Film on) when Leader of the Opposition promised that a Conservative government would eli minate the payroll tax. Well, the fact is, Madam Deputy Speaker, the payroll tax is still with us. In fact, it is healthy and growing. Last year, according to the budget docum ent, it raised $19 0.8 million which is a fair sum of money, and this year, it is estimated, '94-95, to raise $194 million, so there has been a substantial increase expected in the payroll tax for the coming year.

So the payroll tax is still with us, and I would venture to say it will continue to be here for the same reason it was introduced, and that is it brings in a significant amount of revenu e that is needed to help run the prov ince . When I referred to population loss, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is not only in just one or two years. We have seen population loss, enonnous numbers of people leaving this province year after year after year during the tenn of this government, and you could make the argument, well , we have always had some loss since World Warn, and that is true.

There has always been, not every year, but in most years, there was som e loss, but I remember back in the Pawley adm inistration, those figures looked much more favourable than they do today. Madam De put y Sp ea ker, the greatest condemnation, I belie ve, is seeing in tenns of some of the economic sta tistics, in particular, unemployment. If you look at the first three months of this year-and I am saying we take the -

Apri1 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 806 quarter because it is often said, well , if you take one month, it is not as reliab le, although I do not neces sarily buy that argument, but taking the first three months of this year, Manitoba is in fifth place among the provinces in terms of unemplo yment. We used to be the lowest and the second lowest, but now we have slipped to the fifth , and, indeed, if you look at the rate of unemployment this year, the first three months , we are up to 11 .2 percent, compared to 9.5 percent last year. So where is this eco nomic recovery?

Where is this economic expansion? Where are the opportunities for Manitobans? We have them leaving on the one hand, yet on the oth er hand, we have unemployment rising, and most disturbing is the rise in the unemployment for our young people , those under 25 years of age . In 1993, the first quarter, unemployment was 14.6 percent for our young people . Now, it has jumped up to 20.1 percent. We are higher, believe it or not, than the Canadian average in youth unemployment, and that is a switch, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We normally have a youth unemployment well below the Canadian average , but now we have the reversal, whether you look at the first quarter or whether you look at the month of March. If you look at investment, the members opposite always brag about how their fiscal policies are going to attract the private investment dol lars. We want private investment, but we are not getting it. This year, the fore cast from Stats Canada puts private investment in a negative position. We have disinvestment, not positive investment. In fact, we rank 10 out of 10 of the Canadian prov inces in terms of private investment.

If you look at the breakdown of investment you see one of the most serious deficiencies is in the manuf acturing sector, which is quite serious, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have a drop, if I recall , of 15.4 percent in investment spending in manufacturing expected for this year. So as you go along the line, as you go down along the line of the economic fe atures of this province and look at various economic indicators, you see statistics that would indicate a less than favourable situation, a very serious situation.

There is a significant drop in housing construction today compared to 1987 before this gov ernm ent was elected, a serious drop in building permit levels , a serious drop in levels of construction activity, a serious drop in investment , a serious increase in unemployment, a serious drop in jo bs for our people. We have fe wer people working today than we had in 1988 when this government took office. At the same time , while we have had this sad economic situation, we have seen cuts in service s.

There are cuts in this year's budget in Agriculture, in Environment, and High ways, Natural Resourc es, Health, Education, Family Services and on and on. In fac t, there are many, many areas in health ca re that one wonders why this government is cutting. Women 's Health is being cut again this year after a cut last year. Healthy Child Development area is being cut; Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services cut; Healthy Communities Development cut by 20 percent; Health Status Improvement Fund cut altogether; and further cuts to hospitals this year foll owing the cuts that occurred previous years and so on.

Cuts to other areas, daycare system, cut to Healthy Child Development and so on. There have been other areas of cuts in terms of programs for the disadvantaged So on the one hand, we have bad no economic growth. We have increasing de fic its. Simultaneously , we have had this continual cut in services. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think you could make the argument that the biggest deficit fac ing Manitobans with this government is a reduction in social service s, a reduction in the quality of lif e.

There are lots of examples of this-the reduction in New Careers which is a very fine program to help people get off of welfare . The elimination of the rural chi ldren's dental program last year, that was a tragedy. That was going backward. If you want to have good health, you have to help young people look after themselves when they are young, and this one particular area was extremely important in terms of preventative health care for dental work.

807 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1994 We have had an erosion of Phannacare. Not only have the contributions that government has made reducing -but at the same time we are eroding the coverage of Phannacare, and you get complaints time and time again from constituents about this erosion. We are placing, theref ore, a greater burden on the sick and the elderly. We are und ermining our social agenci es with cuts. General ly, this government's budgets year after year have targeted the poor, the sick and the elderly and the young.

In fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, it seems that the only growth industries here are welfare and gambling. Gambling has increased. Welfare monies have gone to the moon. In 1988 when this government was elected, the welfare expenditures were roughly $292 million. Today, 1993, they are up to $516.2 million. So we should ask ourselves the question, are Manitobans better today than they were in 1988? The fact is, the answer will be forthcoming unanimously from people in this prov ince. The answer is a simple no. With the odd exception the average Manitoban, and particularly lower-income Manitobans, are wo rse off.

Madam Deput y Speaker, we regret the fact that this government has chosen to use deficits as an excuse to continue its cut in health programs, in social programs, in education programs. But really, the cuts in public services that I have outlined are creating a real deficit, and the real deficit is the unrealized potential of our people. We are going to have expensive social and economic problems. We are having expensive social and economic problems being cre ated because of the lack of support in the areas that I have mentioned-in health, in social services, in education. •

(1110) What we are doing, we are passing on these problems to fut ure generations because of the government's refusal to invest adequately in health care, in social services. So, indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, Tory times are tough times. People are waiting, wanting an election to pass judgment on this government As I said, the unemployment has worsened. There are 5,000 more people unemployed this year as in March than there were last year- 5,000 people. Madam Deput y Speaker: The honou rable member has one minute remaining. Mr.

Le onard Eva ns: We have Winnip eg unemployment rate up to 13.1 percent, almost the worst of any major city in Canada. Our youth unemployment, as I said earlier, has skyrocketed to 21 percent above the Canadian avera ge. Thirty percent of their children live below the poverty line; in fact, the poor are getting poorer in this province, and the rich are getting richer.

So, in conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, we maintain that we need a government that will make jobs the No. 1 priority, a government that has a commitment to maintaining our quality of life in this provi nce, a government that has some vision of the future for this province, that protects its vu lne rable and disadvantaged and has a commitment to crea ting jobs, and to allow all Manitobans to live in prosperity with dignity. We need a change in government. Let us vote this budget down and have an election. Ron.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am delighted to be able to add my contributions, however brief they may be, to the debate on the budget speech for 1994. Indeed, I think it is a budget of which we can all be proud, a budget that deserves the support of all Manitobans. I want to begin by just saying thank you to all the many, many people throughout this great province of ours who contributed towards the preparation and the ultimate elements that were put in this budget . It was the product of ext ensive consultations on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson).

I believe that more than 500 peo ple throughout this provinc e made presentations and offered comments towards the preparation of the budget from the public sector at large. These were peo ple throughout our communities, throug hout our regions of the province who were interested enough to let their views be known as to where they saw the need for -

- - April2 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 808 changes and what their priorities were in Manitoba. · I want to congratulate, certainly, the Minister of Finance for the excellent job he did in putting together, I think rather ski llfully, a budget that repre sents a balance of int erests, of competing views and thoughts on the economy, a balance among the various priorities that the public and ourselves as government must face and deal with, and in all respects I think an effort to continue the move towards greater excellence in public service deliveiy in this province.

This is something that I think has probably gone unnoticed in the debate , but I think it is important that we talk about the fundamental changes in the co:rporate culture that have occurred in the management of services in this province of Manitoba over the last six years. We now have a senior management and indeed middle management throughout the ranks of this provincial government that I believe is far more private-sector oriented in the way in which they are dealing with the chall enges that face them.

They are now looking to a much greater extent for greater value for the services that they are providing, better outcomes for the money that is being put into their departmental efforts .

There is a whole series of things that have changed the outlook of these people , made them true managers and true administrators who are willing to take the responsibility for their efforts in government to deliver better services for the dollars available to them , and there is a whole series of changes that have come about: the introduction of special opera ting agencie s, so that now we are able to take, for instance, in the Fleet Vehicles branch or the Materials Distribution branch and make them operate as though they were a business, servicing the needs of their client departments in government and improving their levels of service and at the same time controlling their costs and being very, very careful with the precious tax doll ars that are made available to them by government.

I was very, very impressed when I spoke with a group of the managers of government not long ago at a sem inar, and they tal ked abo ut the achievements of the special operating agencies and the achievements of the management upgrading systems that have been put in place throughout the public service . So you have a number of elements coming together despite the application of the compulsory days off without pay throughout the public service. We also have a reduction of the use of overtime by the use of $3 million, a significant achievement, as they are trying to manage their res ources better.

We have a diff erent attitude as they say that they understand now that their client is the public and that the business that they are in is serving the public better for the dollars available to them. I was more than impressed; I was very excited by the attitude that prevailed in that seminar and that has continued to prevail as we have gone through the process of developing this budget.

The fact that now departments are responsi ble for their own costs in terms of their space allocation, in terms of their costs of postage and all of those are as that used to come out of Government Servi ces and just be absorbed by Government Services. Today they are borne directly by the departments so that the departments know that when they are utilizing extra space , when they are demanding improvements, for instance, in terms of their interior renovations and furniture needs and all of those things, that those are going to show up in their budget now .

They are not going to be somewhere in a third party 's budget, which is the Department of Government Ser vi ce s, and they do not have to take responsibility and show a responsiblity for the decision that is made in every one of those areas that is a cost to governm ent and to the taxpayer of Manitoba, a cost that they now have to reflect in their budgets and their responsibility for and are accountable for. This accountability is the key issue and the key word, as my colleague the dean of the Legisla ture from Lakeside (Mr. Eons) says .

It is something I believe that successive governments have wanted to do but have been unable to do it Whether it was lack of will or lack of co-operation or lack of a plan, I do not know, but this government has been

809 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April29, 1994 able to do it, and it is one of the reasons why we contiilue to be able to manage the scarce resources of government better, I believe, than has been done in the past and indeed that may well be done in other areas of this coun try and in other gove rnments. It is really a fu nction of ensuring that our managers now not only have the authority but the responsibility to manage better. All of that I think is important.

It gives them pride in their worlc, and I saw a sense of commitment to public service that I thought was healthier and better than has been for a long, long time. It was as a result, I beli eve, of all of these empowerments that have been given directly to managers and, indeed, indiv idual employees in government through the proces s of the last six ye ars.

That is the important thing, as we look at this, to recognize that this seventh budget is not a new approach to budgeting, to the finances of this government, that it is a continuation of measures that have been put in place for continuous improvement to the fiscal circumstances of government in Manitob a. • (1 120) That continuous improv ement has been proceeded with on all diff erent levels , getting better value out of the dollars that we spend, doing better things in terms of organization and management of government activities in this province, doing everything possible to get all of our costs down, including the costs of interest on our debt and thereby being able to continue our commitment to the people of Manitoba to keep their taxes down, to either freeze or lower them for now, the seventh straight budget.

That is exactly the case, and it is exactly what we have been able to accomplish. What is interesting, despite the chirping of the member for Wellington (Ms. Barre tt), is that every third-party objective observer in commenting on this budg et-and we had people fr om the Canadian taxpayers fo undation, people from brokerage finns right across this continent. We had bond-rating agencies, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business , chambers of commer ce.

Other people all acknowledge that virtually any government in North America would give their eye teeth to have this kind of record, a record of seven straight ye ars of tax freeze or lowering taxes . Point of Order Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am wondering if the Premier would entertain a brief question from myself . Mr. Filmon: I would be delighted to entertain a question from the member for Well ington.

I did not have a lot of material prepared, so perhaps she can help me by asking me a question that will stimulate a response. • •• Madam Depu ty Speaker: The honou rable member for Wellington, to pose one quick question. Ms. Barrett: Madam Deputy Spea ker, the Premier has talked about the independent and third-party accolades for his budget.

I wonder if the Premier has talked to the school divisions in the province of Manitoba, the universities in the province of Manitoba, the health care system in the province of Manitoba, the people who no longer have access to ACCESS programs, New Career program s, the Manitoba Anti-Pover ty Organization and the Indian and Metis Friendship Centre. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Filmon: Madam Deputy Speaker, it is an interesting thing that the member raises.

It shows the fundamental difference in the position of the New Democratic Patty in this provin ce, and also in this Legislature probably the Liberals , and that is that they take their orders and instruction from the people who have a very strong vested intere st, whose arguments and judgments about it are what it does for their pockets. The unionized workforce who work courtesy of the taxpayer are the ones that dictate policy to New Democrats. So they say that because the budget does not put more money in their pockets as -

- Apri129, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 810 workers, that it is not a good budget. That is a fu ndamental flaw in the position of the New Demo crats. We know that if you gave the opportunity to those people who the New Democrats would spend the money on, would line their pockets, that is what would be the genesis of policy direction in this provin ce. New Dem ocrats would give the control of government to the people who are spending the money on themselves, and that is the fundamental we akness of New Democrats. [interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) has indeed bad her opportunity to put her remarks on the record regarding the budget, and I am certain that all honourable memb ers are experie ncing as much difficulty as I am in hearing the Fus t Minister put his remarks on the record. Mr.

Filmon: Madam Deputy Speaker, as a result of the measures that are in this budget, the continu ance of a seventh straight year of tax freeze or decrease of all the major rates in this province , we have indeed a more competitive econo my, a more competitive private sector and a more attractive climate for investment and job creation than ever before in the history of this province. We have gone , as I have said many, many times, from being the province in 1988 that had the second highest overall tax load of any province in Canada to now being the third lowest.

That is fundamental to the experiences that we are having and will continue to have of firms coming to this province looking to invest, create jobs and opportunity for Manitobans in future. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was disappointed, although not surprised, by the contributions of the opposition parties towards this Budget Debate. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer), for instance , talked in his response to the budget about duplicity, and I will talk about his version of what is duplicity , but what I thought was the most duplicitous was the fact that he said, immediately fo llowing the budget, that he bad not yet decided whether or not he would support or oppose the budget That is the worst nonsense , the worst case of absolute balderdash that we have ever heard.

He knew from day one when we began this session of the Legislature that he would oppose that budget with all his vigour, regardless of what it contained, but I thought it was really , really interesting how much difficulty he had in finding something to oppose when, after 20 hours of deliberation with the input of all his members, with the input of all his support staff, he came back here with his lead-off question the next day, and the biggest reason he had found to oppose it was that the throne speech said there would be growth in Manitoba of 3.1 percent, and the budget said there would be a growth in Manitoba of 2.8 percent.

That had been his fundamental disagreement with this budget, and he finally found the reason why he would oppose the budget. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Leave aside his lack of facility with numbers and with ma the matics, beca use he calle d that diff erence from 3.1 to 2.8 a 25 percent difference in it, Mr. Speaker -3 .1 to 2.8 was 25 percent. For most ofus- Point of Order Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) is imputing motives, and he will know that the Spee ch from the Throne contained a statement about being at the national avera ge, which was 3.5 percent.

They will find their own growth rate is 25 percent below, and the Premier should be accurate about that in this crucial speech he is allegedly making. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member, even in his remarks, has said the Premier should be accurate. The honourable member does not have a point of order. That is clearly a dispute over the fa cts. ••• Mr. Speaker: The honourable Fus t Minister, to carry on with his remarks. Mr. Film on: Oea rly, the throne speech referred to growth rate s above 3 percent, Mr. Speaker. The Conference Board had predicted 3.1 percent. The

811 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1994 member opposite always quotes the Conf erence Board, including this morning when he was talking about statistics on travel, he quoted the Conf erence Board. That is, indeed, the ref erence. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson) took the average of seven fo recasts. If he had taken the mean, it would have been closer to the figure, and that, indeed, is the kind of length to which the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) will go to try and find a reason to justify his vote against the budget.

I am dis appointed in him , but of cowse I should not be because this is a very typical approach that he takes . This morning, of cowse, fmtber talking out of both sides of his mouth, Mr. Speaker, he made comments in Question Period about the lack of initiative on our part to try and encourage people to travel into Man itoba. That is such a two-faced approach, I canno t even believe it.

You know, you have a brochure that is being circulated throughout the United States by a group called the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals that bas this quote in it, and I will say what it says, quote : Write to the Manitoba government, the Honourable Marianne Cerilli , Room 234 of the Legislative Building, Winn ipeg, Manitoba, R3C OV8, Canada, protesting their funding of Ayerst 's expansion and telling them you will not visit the province as long as it continues to fund cruelty to horses. So they are participating in damaging the tourism of Manitoba.

Their member for Radisson allows her name to be associated with this, Mr. Speaker. I mean, it is just a tenible , tenible case of the Leader of the Opposition and his party trying to play all sides of the fe nce, trying to damage Mani toba's inte rests, trying to create doom and gloom and negative outlook for Manitoba and then standing up piously in Question Period and saying , what are you doing about job creation, what are you doing about tourism. That is duplicity.

That is duplicity, and we get it in spades from the Leader of the Opposition all the time. [inter jection] Well, talk about ethical standards , the Leader of the Opposition is going throughout the province and talking about bow our deficit went up this year as a result of the cutback mid-year in equ alization payments from the Government of Canada to various provinces across Canada. He is going around saying , well, sure , it aff ected us in Manitoba and our deficit went up by almost a hundred million, but Saskatchewan bad the same cutback and it did not affect them . •

(1130) We ll, Mr. Speaker, he has it in writing from the Minister of Fmance (Mr. Stefanson). He has the exact figures out of the Saskatchewan budget that show him what the government of Saskatchewan did because they are on a different accounting system. They were able, just very simply , to change the opening balance of their debt by virtue of a stroke of the pen so that this was added to a previous ye ar's debt and never showed up on their deficit in the Province of Saskatche wan's deficit.

He knows that is factual response to his assertions, yet he continues to go on radio programs and talk bef ore newspapers saying that Saskatchew an somehow did not increase their deficit, even though their debt was increased by some $136 million as a result of that change and it did not show up in their annual deficit. That is duplicity; that is false inf onnation.

He conti nues, despite the fact that be has been written with an ex planation and with the examples right out of the Saskatchewan budget, to demonstrate where that reduction in transfer payments went and bow it wa s accoun ted for by the government of Saskatchewan. He ignores it, Mr. Speaker. We ll, we have this continuing eff ort on the part of the New Democ rats to criticize Louisiana Pacific, to criticize Ayerst, to damn the jobs that were created at OWE in Brandon and then to tum around and say what about jobs, what about job creation. Well , Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate.

It is unf ortunate, but it is true and it is also typical of New Democrats in this province . We of cowse have hoped for better things from the Liberal Party. We knew that the tax-and-spend mentality of the New Democrats was going to remain consistent. The only thing consistent about them is that they raise taxes, raise the deficit and spend other people 's money without regard to the -

- Apri129, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 812 consequences, but we expected better things of the Liberal Party. And what do the Liberal Party do? Well, today in the Legislature the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards) says that somehow we as a government ought to be doing more to control the levels of tuition at the University of Manito ba.

Well, this governm ent bas attempted over all of the ye ars in government to let the universities know that there is a responsibility on their part to keep their costs under control, to talk to them about spending the money that is in their control as wisely and effectively as we are atte mpting to do with all of the money that is under our control directly as a provincial government. Mr. Speaker, this government commissioned the Roblin report which was being quoted from by the Leader of the Liberal Party, which said in effect that it is not a matter of putting more money into the universities.

It is starting to use the money more effecti vely. I would say that if the Leader of the Liberal Party had as much common sense as the students out there , he would figure out what the real issues are out at the university . The real issues are not just blindly throwing more money . 1bey are trying to ensure that the univer sity takes responsibility in management and administration for managing the res ource s at their disposal. (Mr.

Bob Rose, Acting Speaker, in the Olair) You cannot have people who are having classroom teaching hours of six to eight hours a week and be paying $90, 000 a year for these kinds of services. You cannot have people allocating 25 or 30 percent of their time to consultations with their colleagues, not even with the students , and give all these kinds of allocations of time that do not involve service to the students and to the productive use of those who depend upon the university. Those are the kinds of things that have to be addressed.

He chooses instead to take the side of those who are the ones who need to solve the problem and say, the only answer is give them more money. We ll, Mr. Acting Speaker, now we have tax and spend as the fundamental policy of the Liberal Party in this Legislature , and I can tell the Leader of the Liberal Party that it is going to get him nowhere and nowhere fast in tetms of getting any support in this province of Manitoba.

I fo und it inte resting that in his response to the budget, the Leader of the Liberal Party stated in this House : I have, I believe, support for that position that throwing grants and tax incentives at selected industries and selected businesses does not woik from the business community . (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) He went on to quote the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I know why the Liberal Party is not getting any support from business, small, medium, or any size of business in this province today, and I have been told that directly by Liberals who are in business who say that this provincial Liberal Party does not represent any interest in terms of investment or job cre ation in this province and that in fa ct their business support is next to zero because they insist in going through this kind of charade. He went on to quote the Canadian Federation of Independent Business saying that they were opposed to this government 's policies and this budget.

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business representatives were here on budget day. They spoke to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson), they spoke to me, and they told us that this was a good budget for their members. It is quite clear that no member of the Liberal Party even bothered to ask them their opinion because he would never have attemp ted to put that kind of misinfotm ation on the record, Mr. Speaker.

Time and time and time again, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business bas gone on re cor d as supporting this gover nment 's endeavours, this government 's policies and this government 's fiscal fr amew ork to keep taxes down, to reduce the deficit. Mr. Speaker, I just want to ensure that the Leader of the Liberal Party knows that be cann ot get away with putting false inf ormation on the record , that things will be quoted back to him and that be will be held accountable for his irrespo nsibility.

813 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 29, 1994 Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party said he is not in favour of putting any tax incentives into the budget. He does not want any incentives there for business and investment in our province. This government has achieved investment and success in so many areas in the economy as a result of recognizing the needs that were there, things such as the Mineral Explorat ion Incentive Program. The Mineral Exploration Incentive Program bas been recognized as one of the greatest successes for getting exploration in this province to the greatest de gree.

In fact, last year, 1993, was the highest level of inves tment in mineral exploration and oil exploration in our province's history. At the same time, British Columbia, another mining-intensive province, had a 50 percent reduction in their exploration activity. That is the diff erence between putting in incentives that are re al, that are me aningf ul and that stimulate the kinds of investment and job activity in this province. As a result, we will have by the end of 1995 three produ cing gold mines when we had none two years ago.

As a result, we have the largest single mining claim staked in the history of this province, 2. 7 million acres, to look for precious metals, to look for diamonds, to look for all of those things. As a result, we have a world-class nickel deposit that will likely result in another huge nickel mine in this province. We have vanadium, titanium, all sorts of metals being produced in this province. Those are all the-we have call centres coming to Manitoba as a result - • (11 40) Mr. Doer: We do have some telemarketing jobs. Mr.

Filmon: Well, I am glad that the Leader of the Opp osition now says that is good, because he did not think that the telemark eting jobs at OWE in Brandon were good when they were announced, some 11 5 jobs. He said be was not happy with them and I have his quote here. He said he was not happy with them. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards) said that all that there was in this budget and in previous budgets was trickle-down economic theory, and be went on to give this great philosophical tirade on trickle-down economics.

Well, a billion dollars of capital investment by the direct government departmen ts and the Crown corpor ations this year is not trick le-down econ omics. A billion dollars is pretty direct investment in the economy. Tax inc entives, pa yroll and capital tax exemptions, reductions in the small business tax rate from 10 percent eventually to 9 percent, doubling of the exemption rate for small businesses on the capital tax side, those are not trickle-down economics. Those are direct impacts on the most vibrant job creation part of our economy, small businesses, and those are direct impacts.

That is not trickle-down economics. His understanding of trickle-down economics must be an awfully wonk:y one. His biggest impact that he wants to make is to retain more of Manitobans' money in Manitoba, but be says that Builder Bonds and Grow Bonds are not really-they do not really count. They do not really do any good for Manitobans, he suggests.

Well, I have to remind him that 125,00 0 Manitobans, since we brought in Builder Bonds and HydroBonds, have invested $1.6 billion that has resulted in $1 65 million of interest being paid to Manitobans to be spent in Manitoba to influence directly the economy in a positiv e sense. That is not trickle-down economics. That is direct impact on the economy, and that too is a positive influence of using Manitobans' money in Manitoba. He says it does not really count, Mr. Speaker. I cannot understand it.

He says, the jobs in this economy will not be created by the invisible hand of the marketp lace, because it is indeed invisible. Well, the only thing that is invisible is any positive policy on the part of the Liberal Party of this Legislature. His comments are a major slap in the face to hard-working Manitobans who last year alone cre ated jobs at a rate that was the third highest of any prov ince in Canada, all private-sector jobs. Those were not government funded. Those were not in the public sector. Those were private sector jobs. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) - -

Apri129, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 814 The private sector accounts for over three-qua rters of all the jobs in Manitoba and virtually all the wealth-creating activities. Those are the things that are important to Manitoba is to put in incentiv es, put in policies that will ensure that our private sector remains healthy, that people invest and take risks and continue to grow in this province . Mr. Acting Speaker, those are the kinds of things that are very disappointing when you listen to the kind of off -the-cuff negative criticisms of the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr.

Edwards) and the New Democratic Party. They do not really serve the needs of the people of this province. They do not really serve the interests of the people of this province. Mr. Acting Speaker, the interesting thing about this is that when you look at comparisons with what is happening elsewhere in our country and what happe ned bef ore we took office, well, we of course Jive in a world in which there is competition for investment. I was interested in seeing a fiscal review that was just published this month for the Province of Ontario .

This fiscal review was put out by the Investment Dealers Association of Canada. Mr. Acting Speaker, when we get criticism from members opposite, particularly New Democrats, about how things have happe ned in Canada over the past years since 1990- and we often do get that-I invite them to read this

article because it talks about the comparisons of Ontario in the '80 s versus Ontario in the '9 0s unde r a New Democratic administration. (Mr. Speaker in the Olair) It talks about, for instance, Mr. Speaker, nominal growth rates in Ontario averaged 10 percent over the second half of the 1980s. Now, I do not have to tell you what has happene d since then. Their nominal growth rate in the first fo ur years has been less than zero, that is 1990, '91, '92 and '93.

In addition, of course, the unemployment rate that is always, always talked about in Manitoba as to how are we doing compared to 1990, well, the Ontario unemployment rate in 1990 was 6.3 percent. It is now 10.6 percent. That is double the diffe rence that we are experiencing in Manitoba. Ontario has lost 300,000 jobs since 1990. They lost 300,000 jobs, and they have replaced less than a thiJd of them. [interje ction] We ll, the members opposite say free trade . That is an int eresting thing. Canada 's exports continue to benefit as a result of the Free Trade Agreement.

From a Manitoba perspective , despite the fact that New Democrats opposed the Free Trade Agreement with the United States, in the last three years Manit oba's exports to the United States have increased 40 percent-40 percent with free trade. This is a trading provin ce. One-half of all that we produce is exporte d from this province. We need to keep the borders open. We need to have opportunities to export our go ods. We need open trading arrangements. Here is the other interesting thin g. In Ontario public debt nearly doubled in the past four years.

Now, that rang a bell with me, so I wanted to see what had happe ned to public debt in Manit oba under New Democratic administration in the '80s. Guess what? In six and a half years it went up 240 percent, the tax-supported debt of this province-240 percent. [inte rje ction] That is Manitoba under you, under your administration. The other interesting thing is that interest on their debt has gone up from 10 cents on the dollar in 1990 to 17 cents on the dollar today. Do you know what has happened since we have been in office here? It has gone from 13 cents on the dollar down to 10.5 cents on the dollar .

They want to talk about debt, they want to talk about deficits. Our deficits since we have been in of fice have averaged 1. 3 percent of gross provincial product, which is the lowest of any province in Canada, and that is less than half of the levels that it was under the Pawley administration that included the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), that included the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plo hman), that included, latt erly, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer). Their deficit rates were double the deficit rates that we have incurred since we have been in office .

That is the dif fe rence between fi scal management and the kind of pie -in-the-sky economics. • (1 150)

815 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1994 Mr. Speaker, this budget does what we have been doing now for six years-this is the seventh budget-and that is that it gets our deficit down. The deficit is down by 35 percent over last year. It continues its freeze on taxes-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order here. Mr. Film on: It continues not only to free ze, but to lower taxes. It continues to make this province the most attractive province in Canada in tenns of our fiscal framewotk, Mr.

Speaker, and it continues to do all of the things that New Democrats did not do, in fact went the opposite way on, in terms of debt and taxes and all those, and are continuing to do that in office in other provinces. Mr. Speaker, the budget als o, of cowse, chooses particular areas for priority addres s. Indeed, as was pointed out in the Roblin commission report, there is a need in the community colleges. This budget incre ases funding to the community colleges by 3.3 percent. It provides for closer linkages between skills training, post-se condary education, the labour market, all of those areas.

I might say, I was very happy to be able to create the fo cus that I think will be benef icial to post-se cond ary education of having a deputy minister specifically responsible for that whole area, that burgeoning area of training, retraining, coll eges, universities , and all of that. This budget provides fu nding for distance education, for the electronic highway that is going to enhance the opportunities for education throughout our province.

In the most remote communities, in the most remote areas throughout our province we will be able to provide a higher standard of education, greater knowledge base for people throughout our provin ce. I would have thought that members opp osite who represent rural communities would have been interested in distance education, in utilizing the technology of the electronic highway. I had the great ple asure of being in Swan River at the Swan Valley Regional Secondary School. I had the grea t pl easure of being in Minnedosa at the high school there within the past month.

In both cases, they have peo ple who are able to access encyclopedias in their libraries on CD-ROM. They are able to do CAD/CAM design work, both in the bui lding trades area, also in the creative communications area. They are able to utilize the techn ology, they are able to get quality education, job opportunities and excellent prospects for their future careers as a result of utilizing the technology of this electronic highway. These are all positive things, Mr. Speaker. I cann ot believe that members opposite would vote against these kinds of things.

I cannot believe that they would be negative and criti cal, Mr. Speaker. The member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) has been criticizing the work that is being done by the Department of Education and Training to ensur e that that electronic highway can be expanded to ensure that Manitoba children wherever they live are able to take advantages of these new techno logies and improve their job pr ospects. I have a great deal of difficulty with the opposition of the New Democratic Party in this Legislature towards those positive incen tives.

The other remarkable thing, of cowse, about all of this is how we have been able to manage on a consistent basis despite the fact that we have had massive, massive redu ctions in transfers from Ottawa. Those massive reductions, of course, began with the Trudeau government in 1983, and at that time in 1981, the last time that there was a Conservative government in office, the transfers from Ottawa represented 42.5 percent of our entire revenues as a provincial government . Today they are down to 35 percent. That is a massive , massive reduction.

At the same time, in the last two years alone, mid-year we have had budget reductions on transfers from Ottawa for equalization of over $300 mill ion. Despite all of these shifts, despite all of these pressures, we as a gov ernm ent have been able to manage on this fiscal course that has been described, I might say, by the Dominion Bond Rating Service as the most fiscally respo nsible government in Canada from 1987 to the present. [interjection] No, since 1987, yes. [interjection] We ll, you were in for four months of that and that is when Jim Walding defeated your budget - -

- - April 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 816 because be was so unimpressed with your fiscal responsibili ty. 1be other aspec t, of course, is in tenns of the f airness and the allocation to various departments, and I repeat this because members opp osite choose not to understand or not to acknowledge , but in fact spending on all of the key areas of the social safety net is not only much greater in total dollars than it was in 1988, but on a priority basis it is, of course, much greater as a percentage of the spendi ng. Education spending has gone from 17.2 percent of the budget to 18.7 percent.

Family Services has gone from less than 10 percent of the budget to over 12 percent of the budget Health care has gone from 31 .6 percent of the budget to 33.9 percent of the budget. Of course, in tenns of how this aff ects ordinary Manitobans, Mr. Speaker, in 1992 this province bad the greatest increase in family income of any province in Canada.

The Royal Bank says that in 1994 the growth in disposable income for each and every Manitoban will be the second highest of any province in Canada, and in 1995, at $761 per capita, the growth in disposable income for Manitobans will be the highest of any province in Canada. Those are good-news statistics for every single Manitoba taxpayer. Mr. Spea ker, of course, members opposite suggest that somehow maybe this imposition of good government, keeping the taxes down , ensuring a stable economy, somehow is being related to big busines s or to people who are well to do.

That is why we had to rely on the Saskatchewan government to demonstrate the f airness of all of the things that we have done since we have been in office. 1be Saskatchew an government, of course, put out a chart with their budget about two months ago that compared the costs across all the provinces of Canada, the costs of the direct tax impositions by provincial governments and the regulated costs that include things like heating, ele ctrical, telephones and automobile insurance.

For a family of $25,000 income , Manitoba is the lowest cost place in Canada for that family to be in tenns of direct charges by provincial governments and regula ted cost For a family of $50, 000 income, Manitoba is the second lowest cost place in Canada to be in term s of dir ect provinci ally app lied costs and regulated costs. And for $75,000 income , Manitoba is the third lowest cost place in all of Canada for that fa mily to be.

So not only have the changes that we have imposed on people in Manitoba been ones that have helped them, that have kept their taxes down, that have given them more disposable incom e, but they have been geared to be fairest to the lowest income people in this prov ince. That is good policy and that is something that we are very proud of, Mr. Speaker.

This is a great budget This is a fair and balanced budget One only has to compare this budget to those of every other province in Canada to realize how well our government has led Manitobans throu gh the storm of economic and social change that we have experienced over the past fe w years . It is an undisputed fact that this is not only a fair budget, not only a budget that is balanced in its approach to all Manitobans , but I know that we will have the support and indeed the encouragement of all Manitobans who in their wisdom will recognize that this government- •

(1200) Mr. Speaker: Order, p lease. The hour being twelve o' clock, in accordance with the subrule 23(5), I am interrupting the procee dings to put the questions necessary to dispose of the prop osed motion of the honourable Minister ofF mance (Mr. Stefanson) that this House approve in general the budget ary policy of the government and all amendments to that motion. 1berefore , the question before the House is the proposed subamendment of the honourable Leader of the second opposition party (Mr.

Edwards): And further regrets that (a)this government has failed to put in place programs that will get Manitobans back to wolk and stop the chronic outflow of people from this province; and (b )this government has fa iled to ensure equal opportunity for Manitobans seeking higher

817 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 29, 1994 education by cutting student financial assist ance and the Access Program; and (c)this government has fail ed to meet its own health reform agenda by cutting long-tenn care, wom en's health, healthy child development and other essential health services for Manitobans ; and (d)tbis government has made a mockery of the United Nations Year of the Family by fa iling to strengthen the Maintenance Enfor cement Program, and by cutting child daycare and income maintenance and supplement programs; and (e )this gover nment continues to provide inaccurate and misleading statistical data to the people of Manitoba about our province 's real economic perf onnance.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of the motion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Nays have it. Formal Vote Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recor ded vote having been requested, call in the me mbers. The question bef ore the House is the proposed subamendment as moved by the hono urable Leader of the second opposition party .

Division A RECORDED VOTE was talcen, the result being as follows: Yeas Ashton, Barrett, Carstairs, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Edwards, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlake), Friesen, Gaudry, Gray, Hickes, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lath/in, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McCormick, Plohman, Reid, Robinson, Santos, Schellenberg, Storie, Wowchuk. Nays Cummings, Dac quay, Der kach, Downey, Driedger, Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, Man ne ss, McAlpine, McCrae, Mcin tosh , Mitchelson, Orchard, Pallister, Penner, Praznik, Reimer, Render, Rose, Stefanson, Sveinson, Vodrey. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 28, Nays 28. Mr. Speaker: The vote having been tied, the Speaker is required by our Rule 7.(2) to cast a deciding vote. Speaker Addington 's principle established in the United Kingdom Parliament in 1796 appl ies under the present circumstances. It is that upon all occasions when the question was for or against giving to any measur e a further opportunity of discussion, he, the Speaker, should always vote for further discussion.

In accordance with this princip le, I am therefore voting against the subamendment in order to provide the House with a further opportunity to consider the issues before it which are the motion to app rove in general the budgetary policy of the government and the amendments to it. The honourable member's motion is theref ore lost. ••• Mr. Speaker: The question before the House now is the proposed amendment as moved by the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) to the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the gove rnment. That the motion be amended by deleting all the wor ds after "House" and sub stitut ing the foll owing: Therefore regrets (a)that this government 's record of more tax breaks to business has resulted in fewer people working today than six years ago; and -

April 29, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 818 (b )that this gov ernm ent fa ils to offer hope for the future by reducing educa tional and training opportuni ties; and (c)that this government fails to protect our most vulnerable citizens by introducing further cuts to health care programs; and (d)that this government, in the Year of the Family, has fa iled to introduc e measures to improve community saf ety; and (e)that by this government 's own admission Manito ba's economic perf ormance will continue to be below the national average resulting in continued out-migration and record levels on social assistance; and THEREFORE that this government has thereby lost the confidence of this House and the people of Manitoba.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in fav our of the motion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, ple ase say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opini on, the Nays have iL Formal Vote Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the members, please. The question bef ore the House now is the proposed amendment , as moved by the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr.

Doer), to the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Fm ance (Mr. Stefanson) that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the government. • (12 10) Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Ashton, Barrett, Carstairs, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Edwards, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlake), Friesen, Gaudry, Gray, Hickes, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lath/in, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McCormick, Plohman, Reid, Robinson, Santos, Schellenberg, Storie, Wowchuk.

Nays Cummings, Dac quay, Der kach, Do wney, Driedger, Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, Man ne ss, McAlpine, McCr ae, Mcin tosh , Mitchelson, Orchard, Pallister, Penner, Praznik, Reimer, Render, Rose, Stefanson, Sveinson, Vodrey. Mr. Clerk: Yeas 28, Nays 28. Mr. Speaker: The vote having been tied, the Speaker is required by our Rule 7.(2) to cast a deciding vote.

Bef ore doing so, I wish to remind the House that Bourinot advises that the general principle which guides a Speaker or a Chairman of the Committee of the Whole on such occasions is to vote when practicable in such a m anner as not to make the decision of the House final. In accordance with this principle I am there fore voting against the amendment in order to provide the House with a further opp ortunity to consider the principal issue before it, which is a motion to app rove in general the budge tary policy of the government. The honourable membe r's motion therefore is losL ••• Mr.

Speaker: Now, the question bef ore the House is the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson): _ THAT this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the governmenL Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in fav our of the motion, please say yea.

819 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 29, 1994 Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those oppose d, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr. Ashton: Yeas and Nays. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the mem bers. 1be question bef ore the House is the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that this House app roves in general the budgetary policy of the govemment.

Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Cummings, Dacqu ay, Der kach, Downey, Driedger, Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, Manne ss, McAlpine, McCr ae, Mcin tosh, Mitchelson, Orchard, Pallister, Penner, Praznik, Reimer, Re nder, Rose, Stefanson, Sveinson, Vodrey. Nays Ashton, Barrett, Carstairs, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Edwards, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlake), Friesen, Gaudry, Gray, Hickes, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lath/in, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McCormick, Plohman, Reid, Robinson, Santos, Schellenberg, Storie, Wowchuk. Mr.

Clerk: Yeas 28, Nays 28. Mr. Speaker: The vote having been tied, the Speaker is required by our Rule 7 .(2) to cast the deciding vote. When required to do so, a Speaker must consider several principl es. Among these is a concept that where no other options are available, the Chair should vote for the retention of the status quo.

In addition, as I stated on Apri1 14 and 18 when I vot ed against a subamendment and the amendment, respectively, to the motion for an address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, in accordance with the United Kingdom Speaker Denison 's principle of 1867, a Speaker by his or her one vote should not commit the House to a conclusive judgment Therefore, to retain the status quo pursuant to a principle established in the United Kingdom Parliament in 1860, and secondly, so that a final and conclusive judgment will not be made solely by the presiding officer of this House, I am voting for the motion. 1be honourable member 's motion is carried.

Is it the will of the House to call it 12:30? The hour being 12:30, this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. Monday . -

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, April 29, 19 94 CONTENTS RO�NEPROCEEDINGS Post-Secondary Education Friesen; Manness; Edwards 795 Presenting Petitions Mental Health Care Child Care System Chomiak; McCrae 798 Schellenberg 792 Youth Crime Summ it Curran Contract Cancell ation and Mackintosh; V odrey 799 Phannacare & Home Care Reinstatement Santos 792 Youth Crime Mackintosh; V odrey 800 APM Incorporated Remuneration and Youth Court Phannacare & Home Care Rei nstatement Dewar 792 Mackintosh; V odrey 800 Introduction of Bills Recycling Programs Cerilli; Cumm ings 801 Bill 207, Worlcers Compensation Rural Surgical Services Committee Amendment Act Reid 792 Gray; McCrae 802 Bill 201, Health Reform Accountability Health Care System and Consequential Amendments Act Gray; McCrae 803 Chomiak 792 Bill 204, Regulations Amendment Act ORDERS OF THE DAY Storie 793 Oral Questions Budget Debate (Eighth Day of Debate) Tourism L.E vans 804 Doer; Downey; Ernst; Filmon 793 Film on 807

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-17
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 17.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7c1b0919e74eba71362883ae2312b6e4f1688578

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