Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI First Session Thursday VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} CORRECTED COPY Pages 29 & 30 replaced by pages 29 - 30(

d) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 54 14 December 1989

The House met at ~:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! The han. the Member for Humber Valley. MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .· Mr. Speaker, approximately fifty yeai"S ago today, a ca11 came from Britain to the Corrmr:i.ssion of Government in Newfoundland to try to find 2, 000 volunteers to go to Bri tian to take

part in the production of lAJood. This was paJ"t of thE~ war effort. This tAJas previously done by Russia and the B a 1 t i c S t a t e s . By January , 1 9 40 , approxi.mately 2, 150 had signed up voluntarily to go to Britain to take

part in the production of IAJOod for the tAJar effort. On approximately December 13 or December 14-, 1939 the RMS Antonio was the ship to sail for Britain with the first compliment of Newfoundlanders to take

part in that effort. Later on, many enlisted in the Armed Forces in Britain. The Unit operated until July 194·6 and was another example, Mr. Speaker, of what Newfoundlanders did to SE:'cure our Freedom. I would like the House through the normal channels to pass along the usual congratulations to the Newfoundland Overseas Forestry Unit. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Minisb:'r of Fares l:ry and AgricuJ.ture . MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . L1. December· 14 ., 1989 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker, the hon. Mernber indicated when he firs l: roSE! that the call carne from Britain this morning.

That may lAJe11 be, but. I would point out to the House that I have been in meetings since 8:30 this morning and I tAJouJ.d not have heard of the call. I wish to say to the hon. MernbE!l" that tAle have no difficulty at a11 in associating ourselves with the - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: That was fifty yeal"S ago, Graham . MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I am si.mply r1:-pea t.inq whc-1t I heard thE• hon. ME:!ITlbE!r' say, or I thought. I hea1"d him say. I may have mJsunclerstoocl LL.Jhat hE! said. In any event, Mr. Spc,,aker, l:hE! han.

Member madE! a good casC::! and I want to say on behalf of this side of the House that we have no problem in supporting the sentiments and thoughts expressed by the Member, and we will so do. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. l:he Minis l:.er oF Jus t.tce . MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I rise on a point of privilege and, in fact, pt"ivilE·~JE!S oF UlE:! H o u s e a s a tAl h o 1 e .

I r· e F t:~ r l:. o a question posed by the Opposition House LeadE!r, the Member For Grand Falls, in yesterday's Question P(:~r·iod, and I suqgos t and subrni.l: to Your Honout" that it lAii'\S in fact. mis1edding to the House. No. 54 . Rl

If Your Hohour recalls, the question that was posed was that a person had walked into the Grand Fails court with a rif1e wrapped in a blanket and was not stopped from doing so by any security or other officials. The intent of the question, and the question submitted to me was whether because of this serious breach of secur·ity tJJe had any intent.ion of changing security arrangements at the court in Gr·and Falls.

Following that serious accusation of which I knew nothing at the time, I contacted our Director of Public Prosecutions who contacted our Crown Prosecutor in Grand Falls, who in turn contacted both courts, which knew nothing about the alleged incident. I tJJas then interviewed by the Press. I then saw on television 1.ast night the hon. Member indicating that in fact it was a person tJJho brought the rifle as evidence to court.

I checked again with the court in Grand Falls, and I am now told through rny DPP who checked with the court clerks that the only thing it could be that they may know of is that last week there was a prosecution in tJ.Jhich a Wildlife Officer showed up to give evidence with a rifle in a plastic bag. Now, Mr. Speaker, it very greatly concerns me for several reasons: One is the Member obviously knew the full context, or had withheld from the question and t.he House an important factor in posing l:he question, and if this is the case, and the han .

Member when asked yesterday by the media would not disclose the name of the person, he knetJJ or should have known that a Wildlife Officer intending to give evidence would be expected to bring . with him any relevant evidence that would not be stopped. L2 December 14 ·, 1989 Vo1 XLI It is the same as if I said l:o this House right now that there are twenty or thirty people in courts in this Province with 1·1and guns . Unless I tell the court thE!Y arE! PoliCE! Office1ns, I lAJOu1d leave a very distinct wrong, misleading impression. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

DICI<S: Now·th-e .. -point of ptnivi1 ege I havE· is that if I as a Mtnis l:1:!r o1n any Member of this House or Governmeht or any other person are to be asked proper questions and to respond accordingly, we have the r·ight and- the Member has the obligation to provide all rel"~vant evidence to properly frame his question so that tJJe can dt~al lAri.l:h it. In this case, a valuable point of information was withheld. It raises a serious question as to the level of security in court.

And what is perhaps more important. is not. the brE!aCI1 of the pl"ivi1eges of th:is House or my own, for l:hal: mattE!r, but that such an irnprope1n and irresponsible question put ·to the Government raises a larger issue in the Province as to l:.he se cur'i ty of our coUJ"ts. Now this invitE! ~; disaster, because I think it leaves the wrong impression abroad l:hat our courts a1ne not: prop1:!1nly SE!Cured and it invites thosE• lAJho may be so inclin,~d. and one hopes thE!Y are few in number, t:.o t.E!St. the security of the court. Now tJJhat I tAJould likl;! to say in conclusion, Mr'.

Speaker, is that: I tJJould ask you to rule on this as to whether it is a proper point of privilege. I would like you to consider the things I have mentiom~d. I believe :i.l: go~C!S to thE! proper frarning of qtH!Stions so as to a1l.otAJ M"='mbE!lns of l:he House, No. 54 R2 ..

and particularly Ministers, to properly respond. The Member would obviously want to consider whE:1ther it undermines his own credibility. and the extent to which I as a Minister and any other Member of this Government will deal with questions raised in that fashion in the future. And I also want to consider a Member's obligation to the Province at latnge, and to the system of justice, and I pose this question as Attorney General, as to an irresponsible accusation being made so as to endanger the court officials and people who may have to appear there.

Now if the Member did not know that, and I seriously doubt it, and -.if a Wildlife Officer or some other person did this act and that person was not entitled to be thE:'tne, then I LI.Jould point out that the Member has an obligation to disclose that. Now he need not do it through the House. but he has an obligation, because on the face of it, it appeared that a criminal offence had taken place, a breach of security of the court. If that is not the caSE!, if it was not a person who had every righ l: to be there bringing it as evidence, then I point out to the hon.

Member that he has an obJ.igation to report it to the police and I will direct that a proper police investigation take place . So I think the han. Member owes it to this House to clarify what he knows about this particular incidence and to do us the courtesy. the courtesy 'Lo this House, to put the proper information before us to deal with it adequately. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR . SIMMS : Mr '. SpeakE!r . L3 0E:1cember 14, 1989 Vol X L.I MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Opposition Hou se Leader. Ml~. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, we arE!

SE!Edng hE!J"e a perfect example of a Minister lAJho forgets he is a Minister and no t a lawyer. He .. is not. in the courtroom right nolAJ, Mr'. SpeakE!r, and that is IAJhat h~~ is trying to do. Mr. SpE1ai<E!In, IAJhat. ts irresponsible and irnptnoper is l.:he fact that the Department of Jus Lice and this Governrn~~n l: have no plans to provide SE!CUrity f'o1n the new courthouse. and that tAJas the point I was trying to make yesterday. NolA!, Mr. Speakor, I might subm:i .t. there is certainly no point of privilege, obviously, it is obviously a dispute arising betLI.Jeen tlAJO hon. ME!ITtbE!I"S.

But since he has raised it, I will take the opportunity now to respond to som e of thE! questions he tried to raise. I noU .ced hE!. himself, in press reports sai .d 'there is no reason for us to provide any more security for Grand Falls or for anylAtherE! el SE! ·.in the Pr'ovince. ' That. t;..Jas precisely my point, because in Grand Falls th(O 're is no secur·ity planned fat" thE! coUI"thouse in Grand Falls. That is the point.

With respect to th e in ci dent I used in rna king th e exarnp le , I rnacle it very cl~-,.ar .,_.I rnad(O' il : ver y clear .. _ that: this inclividuc:-1 1 lAJho t;..Jent into I:. he courttnoorn ar ea. which is on thE! second floor. l think, in the Provinci.al Butlclin~1 out t.her'e. wc :\s not . doing anything alarming or ·trying t:o do anyHl'i .ng negative. I said that . I sai d J.t yesterday. I sa id that the indivJ.dual co ncE! rned LI.Ja s sirnpJ.y trying to rnal<e a point, and, Mr . Speaker. I think :i.n vietAJ of t;..Jha t No. 5'4 1n

thE! Minister has tried to do here today that that indivtdual clearly did makE! thE! point. I do hope the Minister will consult with hts colleague, the Minister of Works, and provide security for the courthouse. That is the whole point. I can also tell him that he will get a folloW···UP concern expressed b~ people out in the area, judiciary, lawyers and everybody else, so he should consult with others, aside from his Crown Prosecutor. MR . BAKER : Mr . Speaker·. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. The Governrnent House Leader. MR. BAKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

This is a serious mal:.ter that skirts on a lot of issues that have been bothering me for some time . 11 Parliamentary privilege, 11 according to Beauchesne, p.11, paragraph 24, 11 is thE! sum of the peculiar rights enjoyed by each House collectively as a constituent part of the High Court of Parliarne•nt, and by M€:'rnbers of each House indtvidually, without which lhey could not discharge their functions ... 11 NotJJ, Beauchesne goes on a little further to point out that they are talking about thE• parliatTIIO:'ntary functions, specific reference to the parliamentary functions of hon . Members.

The Minister of Jus tict:=! makes the point that in this House we are bound to accept the word of han. Members and when an han. Member opposite gets up and states a version of the facts, or states Lt~ December 11~, 1989 Vol XII .. the facts, we have to facts exist as they As Ministers, we assume the se state them. feel an obligation to respond to the question in that manner. M1~.

Speaker, if in fact what is happening is that what is being presented to. the House is a distorted version of the facts and arE! not thE! facts as the MernbE!l" knows them, then that does intE~rfet~e tAdt.h tJJhat Min:i.st:.et~s at"e doing in this House, tJJhich is properly responding to proper questions, Your Honour . ~3o I would sugqest to you that th-.is is an interference with Ministers performing their parliamentary functions .- The quote that r'c::~fEH 'S to the parliamentary duties, Mr.

Speaker, is Beauchesne, Page 2'j, Paragraph 92. 11 A vaJ.id claim of privilege in respect to interference with a Member mu st relate to the Member's parliamentary duties, 11 and thc'l.t is what I specifically refer to.

I IAJould also 11 l<e to point ou l:. to Your Honour that the dE!fen cE • USE! d by the Opposi tion Hous~~ Lr:'acler comes from Page 13 of Beauch es ne , Paragraph 31, Subsection (1.), "A dispute ar:i.sing be twe en two Members, as to a1lega t.ion ~; o·f Facts, does not fulfill th e conditions of parli amentary priviJ.egE! ." I tAJould cr::•t"tain1y agree tJJi.th Subsect. i.on (1) ol Paragraph 31 of Bea uchesne . Unfortunately, the refer'enet: :> do es not fit this par'l:i.cu1at" caSE!. This is not a dispute arising between ttAJO ME:!rnbE•t~s as t.o allegations of facts .

What:. the Min :istE•r of Justice is sc:,lying is that the · facts were kn own, and there is no di spu te between the Members as to the facl:s. lhat is not: Lhe point. It. is cJearJ.y a dispute bet.tJJN'n ME~rnb<::~rs tJJh'ich can bE! a point of pr'ivil ege, bu l:. th:i s No'. 54- I~ 4-

is not simpJ.y a dispute ~;..lith regards to aJ.legations of facts. Thi. s is a dispute that cl~<:~al s with the very foundations of this House and what Question Period is supposed to do. Your Honour, I would suggest that this does constitute a prima facie case for privilege, and that if Your Honor finds that, that the matter be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: I wil1 take one more submission. The han. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Thank-~Tou, Mr. Speaker. This is really beginning to get out of hand.

The Government are obviously now trying to undermine my credibility in every possible lJJay they can. That is obviously what they are trying to do, and they think they will score some grE!at - AN HON. MEMBER: They will have Question Period don~ away with. MR. SIMMS: Yes. They think they lAiill score some great points about it. The arguments put forth by the Government House Leader (Mr. Baker) with respect to what deterrninE!S a point of privilege, are very weak ones indeed, Your Honor. I mean it is clear the dispute here is between the MintstE!r of Justice and mysE!lf as to the allegation of facts.

That is what he raised on, that is the point of privilege that the han. Member' raised. But, Mr'. Speaker, there is c1E!ar1y L5 Decernb~<:'r 14, 1989 Vol XU no point of priviJ.ege exisU.ng here. The fact. is thE!re lAJas an incident that occurred, the Minister confirmed it himse1F, the Government House Leader just confirmed it himself. That was the point I made. The. question had to do lJJith providing secur't ty at the court house.

So they can try to twist "·it, they can tJ~y to make it as big a case as they want, try to b1olJJ it a11 ou l~ oF propoi~tion if thE!Y !Adsh, but I lJJould argue, quite since J~e ly, t.ha t there is no point of privi1E!gr:~ in this particular incidence. I l:. is not even worth debating. MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Attor'ney CE!neJ~a]. (MJ·' . Dicks). MR. DICKS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. lhe point is not a disputE! of facts, Lhe point is on disclosurE! of a VE!ry vital piece of infonnation that ts important both to the question and to the answer. The han.

Member, again, when hE! initia11y rosE!, said that the person IAJho WE!Iil:. into the court was there to try to make a point. He nolJJ says that. t.ue know the incident, therefore I conc1ucle that what I'll:=! is saying is that- it was the inc:i.dent involving thE:• IAli ld 1. i fe officer. nH'! IAJ'ilcl LiFe officer, if that is the person, was not thet~e to rnak0' a point, he?. was there to give evidence. He did not go in to tesl: the securi.l~y of the court. And agaJ.n, eVE!n in his submission, Mr. Sp~'!akc?.r, I'll:> is again misleading and he is not dealing with the Facts properly.

It is not a matter of playing games, Mr. Speaker, it does qo to the pr'ivLleges if the hon. MembeJ"S LI.Janl~ to pose propel" qUE!S t.ions, lJJe can deal with them properly and No. 1)4- I~

I) give answers that the people of the Province have a right to expect. We cannot deaJ. with the Opposition in this fashion. And even in what the hon. Member has done, I think he has merely demonstrated that it is, at the very least, a prima facie question of privilege. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Leader of tl1e Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : M r . S pea k e r , I h a v e l i s ten e d wit. h a great deal of interest to the attempt by the Minister of Justice and the Attorney General (Mr. Dicks) to make a casE! here while, in fact, there is no case at all. The fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, that a person carrying a weapon passed through lAJhat should have been a secured court area of this Province. That is what the hon. gentleman was talking about. Now, Mr. Speaker, what really is opE!rative here - the Minister of Justice referred to it, the Government House Leader referred to it ·- l.IJhat really is operative here is the Government trying to determine how the Opposition poses its questions. and tAJhether or not the Government responds to them. Now, Mr. Speaker, there l.IJas a period of time in this Assembly tJJhen there tJJas no Question Period under a previous Liberal Government.

It tJJas a Conservative Government that brought in Question Period. Now, Mr . SpE!aker, if the Government does not like the way the questions are posed. they do not have to answer them. I will tell the Minister of Justice this, as long as we arE• L6 Decemb(~r 14-, 1.9B9 Vol XLI .. occupying the benches of the Opposition on this side of the House, neither he as a latAJyer, or · the Premier as a lawyer -- ttny all they might - are going to turn this House int .o a courttnoom. We will ask questions thr:!. way tAJ€:• see fit.

If the Government and the Ministers SE!e ... fit to anst/JE!ln thern, they can. if they do not. they do not have to, and do not gEd: up screaming and moaning like a spoiled brat when things do not go your own way! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair has probably heard two too many submissions, but i.s r'(;!i.-ldy to make a ruling. l"he Chair 1 s ruling is that: it: is not a prima facie case of privilege, or the Chair cannot make that case.

The hon. the Mini stet' of Jus U.ce 1 s case seemed to be based on the prE!mise that the ME!ITlbE•r ' fotn Grand Falls was misleading the House, and hon . Members ought to know that it is not. a point of privilege to mislead the Hou se. To del'.iberab~ly mislead thE! House, a case could bE! rnacle, but. thE•n, the hon. gentlt:'ntan tAJou1d have l:o adtTii.t: Lhat hE! or· she dc:•L i.bE•J"ateiy misled the House, because Lho tn€. •ro acc~sation itself does not lead to a point of privileg~~ and, as an hon .

Members know, the Chait~ has to abide by the statements made by the Member accused, in terms of accuracy and, therefore, i.L is very difficult to establish that misleading the House is a point of privilege . Maingot: mab:!S it quite clear that to mislead the House is not a point of privilege, and the:· only case l:he Chair cou1d 1ook at at all is if it wer ·e de1 ibE•J"ate No. !)4- 1~6

and if the Minister admitted it was deliberate. So, the Chair 1 s ruling is t.l1at it is not a prima facie case of privilege. Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I have to address another matter of misleading the House. It happened yesterday the han. the Member for Kilbride. NotAl, here is what is attributed to him on the air.

He was asking questions yesterday of the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. and the attempt was made to indicate that somehow, a delegation came in from the District of Bellevue to make certain representations with respect to a road. and they were refused . Then, .a delegation came back again, this time, headed by my brother, and their request was accepted. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). PREMIER WELLS : No. And here is what the han. Member said when interviewed on CBC radio.

Here is the statement, and I tAJill read it: 1 As far as I can find out, the reptnesentatives of the people out there who are elected or appointed to make representation on transportation problE!mS in the arE!a. camE~ to the Minister to ask him for some money for the road,· and it was refused. 1 thE!n he said, 1 the next group that carne in v.1as a delegation led by the Premier 1 s brother, who asked for money. and they got it..

So I guess that is the po-int t:.hat I am L7 December 14 -, 1989 Vo1 XLI trying to make, that the e~ctE!d people out there should haVE! bEH:'!n given the courtesy, if the road tAJas going to be done, they should have been told that. it was going l:. o be done ; o In tAla s it j us t be causE! the Premier 1 s brother came in? 1 Now. that is the statement, Mr. Speaker, and I can say to you that I have done enough chE~ckoing now, in thE! last tlAJenty- --four hour·s, to determine that the representat.oions are totally false. Here is the record of occurred, Mr . Speaker . responding to these questions MR.

SPEAKER: o-rder, ple ·a-se! what In I point out t:o hon. Members to my right, the · Chair is trying to listen to the answer and is finding great difficu1ty because of interruptions. So would hon. gentlemen please refrain from interrupting so that a11 of us. can hear the answer . The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . In responding to these questions yesterday, l~he Minister indical:.l''d the pE!r'son who Jed l:he fit"s l:. delegation and the nd.lrtes oF the individuals who comprised both. I heard quite clearly l:he Minis l~E:'r 1 s ansv.1er. Thr:'! fi.r·st delE!gation lAias led by a Mr.

Bruce Stagg. He happened to have been the President of the District P.C. Association, and I rrt:i.ght add, the P.C . candidate in that District in the last provincial. eJec tion. Whil.e the Minister did not: .-indicate who led the delegation on its second visit, I have been informed that the meetoing was No . 54 R'/

requested Jackman. anybody Jackman. by Not, else, a by by my a Mr. Harvey brother, or Mr. Harvey I can only assume that the hon. Member For Kilbride d'.id not hear the Minister 1 s reply, even though he did not indicate at the time that he had difficulty hearing what he said. If he did in fact hear the Minister 1 s reply then I must assume that he chose deliberately to make a totally false statement to the news media when he gave them the statement to the contrary that I just read. As the Minister indicated to the House, my brother was a ITIE!mbE=~r of both delegations, the first and thE! second. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS: That--iS--correct . Yet that hon. Member made Cl statement, having had that information made available to him, that was designed to be totally false and mislead the public of this Province. Not only was the Minister not aware that John Wells is my brother, but I did not know that my brother tJ.Jas involved in a delegation, or had anything to do tAli th it, or tAJas anywhere nc~ar the place.

I can say with total frankness to this House, and to the people of this Province, that iF I had known my brother was there and he was making representation, I would have made it difficult, if not impossible, to haVE! it done. So for anybody who wants -anything done in this Province l:he answer is, do not get a relative of mine to come looking for it. Mr. Speaker, neither the first nor L8- December 14 ·, 1989 Vol XLI .. the second delegation was. headed by my brother. He did not mi.'.lke the request for either oF the l:.wo meetings.

He was a lTIE:Hnber of Lhe delegation, I suppose in his right as a member of the community. Although, I have to say to the House - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS : As soon as thE! cackling stops, Mr·. Speaker, I would 1 ike to proceed. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER WEt.LS: I have to say to l:he House, Mr.

Speaker, that while anybody can reasonably expect to make a representation to a Minis Ler, Ol" to a n y bod y e l s e , I t h :i. n k i t tAl as totally inadvisable for my brother to make any such representation, and I will tell him and. every other brother that I have, that. it is inadvisablE! for them to do it:., just to prevent Members opposite from making those kinds of ill-founded, totally false statements and representations t:.o the House . The han. Member For Kilbride (Mr. R.

AyltAJard) has choSE!n to rni s repres ent the facts by ig nor i. ng the fact tha t the first delegation made representation to the Minister before the BudgeL was brought dotAJn, and thE! Minis t·.(!l" tAkl.S not in a position at Lhc:-lt. t.:irne to commit any Funding. The second visit lAlas aftE!r t.he BudgE-t. tAJas i.n p 1 a c e a n d l:. he M i n i s t e 1~ tJJ as a b 1 e l: o determine tJ.Jhat priority should b(;• given to the particular request. I might add that onE! of the members of the second delegation was a businessman in the coiTIInunity who indicated that the pavinq of No. 54 R8

L the Loop Road was necessary even for the survival of his business. Now, l:hese are the Facts of the matter, Mr. Speaker. Armed with all of these facts, which the han. Member knew, the han. the. Mt::~rnber For Kilbride chose to ignore them when he implied to the nelAJS reporters that John Wells was not a member of the first delegation, and told the same reporters that he actually led the second delegation, both of which statements were totally false. It was, and is, totally false misrepresentation of the facts, and I want to assure this House, Mr.

Speaker, that no TnE!ITlber of my family will ever be cause for accusation of a conflict of interest on my part. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, how pious, pure and self-righteous the Premier is. PREMIER WELLS: (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMS: Stop interrupting, boy . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the Premier. deep end if not bother me, I did not interrupt Let him go off the he wishes. It does Mr . Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, if there is anybody in this Province, or in this House, who wondered why the Premier would havE=~ tlAJO systE!rns of dealing with those kinds of matters, like he did with the Minister of Social Services, then L.9 DecE•mber 14-, 1989 Vol XLI we have seen the answer here in this House today. The Premier has a double standard, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: What a s p e c t a c1 E! , M 1n . Speak N' , the Premier getting up, to shout, rant, and rave, about a Member of the Opposifion doing his or her job in raising thE! qUE!Stion that ought to be raised, Mr. SpeakE!r.

The Premier did not say to the House, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Bruce Stagg happE!ned to bt~ the Cha:i.rrnan of the Transportation Committee. 0 h , he j us t said that hE! lAI(.,\ s President -of the PC Association. Oh, he just said that he JJJas thE• PC candidate in the last election. He did not say anything about him being Chairman of the Transportation Committee, Mr. Speaker. Talk about misrepresentation, talk about misleading, Mr. Speaker.

Now here are the facts: the point that the hon. gentleman From Kilbride was trying to make is that a delegation lead by the Chairman of the Transportation Cornrnittee for Lhat community Ci:tllle to this Government and lAJas tul"necl down, Mr. Speaker. A second delegation includins1 thE! PrE!ITii.E·r' s brother led by oU11:1rs calm! to l:.his Government and received Funding. Now lAihat happened in l:he inl:.el"irn? ThE! PrerniE!r dj_d not tell l:.hr:~ House any of the Facts, Mr. SpeakE!r. What happened in the interim? lhe cont1nact lAJas alJJalnded fo1" l:he fiJ~s t J.ot of lAJork.

Th~~ contracto1n tAlent out and did the work and lt:d:l: l:he area. The Premier's brother and delegation came to the Minister, got the funding clppr·oved, and Uw con-t:ractor lAJas yanked back -.in l::hE! ar'E!a, Min. Speai<E~In. At IAJhat cost? The contra -ctor IAias yanked back No. 54 - R9

into the District from somewhere else in Newfoundland and Labrador to pave a piece of road that passed in front of the Prernier•s brother • s residence. At what cost to the taxpayers of this Pro u in c e? The s e are f-a c t s , M r . Speaker. Just as it was fact that another extension to a contract was donE! to pave in front of the residence of the Member for Port de Graue, Min. Speab~r. There WE!re six extensions that we know of made to existing contracts over the last several months, Mr. Speaker .

Five of them were in Liberal Districts, one of them was in a District that did a piece of tJJork that passed in front of the residence of the Premier•s brother, the other was the Otterbury Road out in Port de Graue District. How much, Mr. Speaker, does this House have to take from that Government? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The Minister Agriculture. of Forestry and MR. FLIGHT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform this han. House today that the han.

Donald Mazankowski, Minister of Agriculture Canada, has announced an assistance package For thE! red mc:1at indus try in Newfoundland and Labrador. While the program has been discussed since early September, thE! announcement today comes as a result of a meeting I held with Mr. Mazankowski earlier this week. Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the program is to provide temporary assistance to producers to LlO DE!cernber 14 ·, 1989 Vol XLI increase efficiency and sustainability of red meat production.

The program, to be 100 per cent federally funded, will provide $600,000 to the red meat sector in Newfoundland over a three year period beginning with the fiscal year 1989/90. Mr. Speaker, t.he hog industry in Newfound],and, like other aroas of the COUntry, has E!XpE!IniE!nCE!d VE!Y'Y hard times in the past l:.lAJO years due to higher feed costs and lower market prices. Eu en IAJi th assistance from the Province•s price support program, producers are sti .ll sufFering substanti.a1. losses. For this 1neason, $ 1)52,000 has been - a1located to the hog industry.

Payment to hog producers will bE! based on the previous marketing of hogs and gilts . Payments will determined on the basis of industry sales. years hybrid be total Mr. Speaker, the she ep indus tiny in this Province recently formed i:'ln Association - The Sheep ProduCE!rs Association of Newfoundland and Labrador. A grant of $24,000, over the three years, t.~li.JJ br::! provided to this Association to help strengthen their organization. A similar amount has been set aside to assist bec! f producers. Mr.

Spc::~aker, I am pleased l:.hal LhE• Federal Government has acknotAJledged the special needs of thE! red ITIE!at sE•ctor in this Province and I t.~rish to thank Mr. Mazankowski for his support. Thank you . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! No. 54 1no

MR. SPEAKER: • The han. the Member fo1n Humber Valley. _MR. _ _,_ __ WQQQ.LQ..~ D : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr . Speaker, the Statement by the Minister is a positive one and I would like to commend the Minister wholehearted 1 y on his s u c c e s s wit. h MazankOlJJski in OttaiJJa. I doubt if it came through onE! meeting held the other day. I am sure the Minister had other meetings earlier with Mr. Mazankowski. I know what he is like to deal with from the few times I had to deal with him. But anyway it is. a positive step.

I would be the first one - when they do something positive and constructive - to give them a pat on the back, and I say without hesitation that this is an excellent program, totally funded by the Feds . It is about time they put some money into something in the Province, f·or they have been dragging their feet For years. But having said that I note it is a Temporary Assistance Program. The hog industry, where the bulk of the funds wiLl. be going, some $552,000, is having some problems, not only in the Province, Min. Speaker, but all across Canada, moreso in the Western Provinces where they are close to the U.S .

Border. So there are only some thirteen or fourteen hog producers in the Province and that will auger well for them because it gives them a substantial amount of funds over the next few years, not enough, but aJ.ong u..dth ' thE! Provincial Program it will keep them going for a while. The bulk of hog the East Coast because of the production is on of the Province, problems we had Lll December 14, 1989 Vol XLI · lAiith Newfoundland Far·m ProduC'l:s some years ago where they would not slaughter the hogs along lAitth the bro:i.lers on thE• West Coast of the Province.

The Wes ·t Coast producers more or less had to get out of the industry, forced out of the industry. But I hope again that Mr . Mazankowski has not done this at the expense of a Stab1izat.ion Program. I would like the Minister to take note of this. When I was there in my short stint as Ministe1n I would not sign l:he Hog Stablization Program that he had recommendE!d For the Province. We were the only Province who stayed auf of it, and for good reasons. I would not have anything to do tJJith tt becaust'! it would have been detrimental to the industry three or four years after. Mr.

Speaker, as it goc:!s on it says the sheep producers have formed an association. Yes, they doid. And that is an industry in the Province that is just star ting to c r atAJ 1 . It is an indus try in the Province that can be a VE~ry productive one . Just about, I think, 90 per cent of our 1.arnb i.s importE!d into l:he Pl~ovtncE•. For the amount of lamb t-.:ha t- is ptnoduced herE! in the ProvinCE! the producers get a very high price for it. It could be a self --sustaining industry .

Right nou..J the only way that it cou1d be self -sustaining and se1f-sufficient : is iF it were mixed with something else, sorne other form of m:i.xed farmtng, whether it: be Forage, tJJhE!lhc::~r it be poultry or beef or whatever. A similar arnoun t has gone to the beef production industry. I !Alas told back in 1972, when I started to raise some beef on the West Coast of the Province, that it No. 54 R 11

would be uneconomical, and :i.t was said that I was foolish to raise a beef cow anywhere east of Bellville, Ontario. So I had to prove my point to the officials at that time. That attitude is still there today, I say to the Minister, and unti l tJJe root that attitude out of the Department and certain officials in it, we tAJill altJJays have it. But it is there. I t c an s u r v i v e a 1 o n g tJJi t h something else and it is something that should be taken into account when the Minister does up his Budget for 1990, the whole agricultural industry. If you go back to the recommendations mad~;:~ by Dr.

House on Employment and Unemployment, some of the greatest recommendations in there, and some of the most basic recommendations pertaining to rural Newfoundland, is in the agl~iculture sector . I take note of that and I am sure that Dr . House and his Recovery Commission are looking at those things right now. But. then again the point I would like to leave with the Minister is to have the Province look at a certain amount of funding in their 1990 Budget to match something similar to what the Feds put in. Thank you . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The Chair should point out to hon.

Members that in Statements to MinisteJ~s they ought not try and occupy too much time. The Chair did not notice how J.ong the Minister took. But since I did not notice I was rather gE!nerous 1..12 December 14-, 1989 Vol XLI with the Member for Humber VaJ.ley, and the Chair apologizes for that . But normally responding to Statements By Minister·s is nol: to be nearly as long as the Statement itself. But in no case should it exceed thE! time it look the Minister to give the Statement. Oral Questions MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker. ~~_._SPE~gR: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHE~S: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is 'l:o l:he Ministet~ of Fisheries. Before getting into the question, I lAJould likr: :! to say that from a11 indicat:i.ons thE'! meeting held in Montr1'.!al a couph• of weekends ago between the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries and Newfoundland 1 s representative in the Federal Cabinet was a pretty heated meeting, and I guess it goes tJJihout say:ing that if it 1.1Jas open to public scrutiny, viewer discreU.on, apparently, ~.>.Jould have ber::~n required, and apparE!ntly that dispute was over the cJ.osure of the St. John 1 s fish plant, 1JJhe1~e the Province insisted that St. John 1 s be closed.

My question to the Minister of Fisheries is, is the r·eal reason why FishE~ry Pl~ocJucts Inl:.E•nlat:iomll has not announc10!d tht~il~ plant closures for the p,~ovince :1 s that there is a disagreement between the Provincial and Federal GoueJ"nments as to the plants to b1?. closed by Fishery Products International? No . 54- 1n2

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I should, first of all, correct the statement the han. Member made in his

preamble to his question about the quality of the meeting that was held in Montreal between Mr. Crosbie the Premier and myself. It was a good meeting. I ·do not know where he is getting his information about it being a rough meeting. Again, it is obvious hts pipeline is not functioning very well. Mr. Speaker, to get to the question of course FPI is now in the process of deciding what plants they will be closing in the Province. Any delay in making that decision is certainly not caused by the virtue of the Province and the Federal Government being incapable of deciding what plants they should close. That is entirely wrong, just as wrong, by the way, as the statement made in the

preamble to his question. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, my pipeline was supposed to be incorrect when, last week. I said that thE! St. John's fish plant was going to close down as well, and, at the same time, indicated that three Fishery Products lntr:'rnationaJ plants were going to close. The Minister said in the House and said it pub 1 i c 1 y that that was not the case, and just a couple of days after that he had to take back water, of course, and admit that indeed St. John's was closing, on the insistence of the Province that Burgee be kept open and St.

John's close. 1..13 Dec•?.mber 14-, 1989 Vol XLI Let me be more specific to the Minister. Is it not. a Fact that Fishery Products International is asking to close Four plants in l:he Province, the ProvinCE! agrE!eS with closing four plants, and Mr. Crosbie will only agree to the closure of three? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Ministe•r of FisheriE!S . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, bE!fol~l"! I anst. .. JE!r the question let me again col~I"E•ct t.hro! misstatement. He quoted me as refusing to give the narnE! of Lhe plant being clost:>d by NatSea.

I informed the House last Thursday that I was in fact at...Ja r E! o f l: he plant that IJ.Jas to bE! cloSE!d, but that I fell:: the E!rnployees of that plant had a l":i .gh l:: to hE!ar it. from their employer and not on the evening news. With respect to the last part of his question, Mr. SpE!aker, of course the answe1 ~ is no. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE! MembE!r -Fol~ Sl: Mal"Y 1 s -The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is also to the Minister of Fi sheries.

Wi .J.J l:he Minister tell us tJ.JhaL the sl~at -_us of the fish plants i~ Trepassey is in relation to discussions that arE! underway IAJ:i. th the Feclei~aJ. Government and the Company. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the M-.l.nister of Fishel~iE!S . MR. W. CARTER : Mr. Speaker, the status of the fish pJ.ant in Trepassey is no No . S 4- 1n3

difFerent from H1e status of the fish plant in Grand Bank or in Catalina or Marystown or Gaultois or Rarnea or any other fish plant owned and operated by FPI. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's -The Capes. MR. HEARN: . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think the Minister knows that the status of Trepassey and a few of the others mentioned will be quite different from Catalina and Marystown and some of the other plants.

However, I t~o.Ji.ll ask the Minister does this Government believe that the fishing industry generally in the Province can make a comeback over the next four, five, six years, or· whatever, if proper conservation and management procedures are followed? MR. SPEAKER: T'Fieho--n:--ti1e Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: I will not comment on the calibre of the question, Mr .

Speaker, but certainly I can tell the House that this Government looks forward to the day, and maybe in the not too distant future, when our fish stocks wi1l be back to u.Jhere they were at one time, indeed even better, and when all the fish plants in the Province which are now operating will be operating then. MR. SPEAKER : ·=r·i1·E:-;- ·-hon. the Member For St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HEARN: I thank the hon. Minister fo1n his answer, because we also hope and believe that there is a chance that the fishery can come back. LllJ.

December 11~. 1989 Vol XLI In light of that I ask h'.irn thE!n, especially since he said they t~o.Jtll look forward to seeing the day when all the fish plants which are presently operating will continue to operate, would it not make much more senSE!, esped.a1ly as "it relates to FPI, where this Government can say to them keep the plants open and keep communi ties viable, rathE•r than spend the millions or· billions oF dollars it tAJould take to carne up with some kind of substitute employment, to keep thern E!ITtployecl directly in the fishery over· th~?. next few years?

Because if we let plants die now, they know and we:> l<nou.J those plants wi1.1 neVE!r open again. Is it not more sensible to put our money into subsidizi.n~1 the fishery and kN'P employrnent thc:H''~ in that area rather than try to create jobs in some other sector? MR. W. CARTER : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the MinJstc:!r of FishE!InJes . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the han. Mc::'ntbet" mus l: knotAJ, and if hE! get.s Hansard toddy he can read it ·- by the lAJay, these questions were all discussed and debated at length yesterday.

In fact, over the pa st t1.1.1o Ol" lhl"ee tAJeeks I am sure we have anstAJet"E:'d that question many times. MR. MATTHEWS : So you do not t~o.Janl: to talk about the fishery now. (Inaud:iblE·) . I already know, Walter, and so do you, and so does (inaud:iblE!). MR . WARREN: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. No . 54. R14

MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to thE! Minister of Justice. On April 18, 1989, four Inuit from Sheshatshit, namely, Chief Daniel Ashini, Elizabeth Penashue, Peter Penashue, and Ben Michel, were acquitted of mischief by a Provincial Judge, James Igloliorte. Would the Minister now advise if those four Inuit wi11 be retd .E!d for the same offence. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Justice . MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have difficulty answering the Member 1s question in the sense that he is asking if they tJJil1 be retried.

There is some technical legal issues as to whether or not it is, in fact, a retrial. I can advise the hon. Member that I learned yesterday that the Departmental Director of Public Prosecutions had resummonsed the four individuals to appear in court, I believe it was December 13.

That was made necessary by the fact that there had been a substantial period that had elapSE!d frorn thE! timE:! of the initial trial and the Court of Appeal determination that the initial proceeding tJJa s a nullity, which in law means that because there have been a procedural defect in the way the informations have been put togeth•:>r, tJJhere the four individuals were charged on one document rat~her than severa1, that, t.hE~Inefore, the proceE~ding was improper, so ·that to that extent, it was the sam e as if the trial had never taken place.

At this point in period for appeal Court of Canada time, the time to the Supreme had not yet Ll ~) December 14 ·, 1989 Vo1 XLI expired, and my understanding is that it does not expire until December 19. HolAJ exacU.y we tAd.1l proceed in the mat lE!r, and if we will proceed, has not yet been subject to a final dec ision by Government. The matt•?.r that they have been surnrnonSE!cl back at this point in time. is just~ to plnevE•nt any further delay that could result in the defendant s, if they are to be tried, having an additional constitutiona1 al' 'gument on the basis of undue deJ.ay.

So, at this point in tirnH I arn not in a position to make a firm commi trnent or to ansWE!r the hon. Member 1s question firmly as to whether or not new trials wi1l take plac-e on these pa1nticu1a1n informations. But it is under consideration, and at this point it would probably be premature. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Memb er for Torn gat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr . Speaker, my supplementary tAd ·11 . be to the Premier. I hav e a copy of a Fax that was fax ed to the Premier yesterday fr orn thE• lawyers representing the four Inui t peopJ.e mentioned .

I would like to ask the Premier now wouJ.d he not think tha t by retrying th es e four Inu it who were acquitted by a Pr ovincial Judge your Gov ernment has a adop ted a policy of vindict ive and confronl~a'l:.ional ac tto n again st:. t.h1" Inu it pe opl e, and the Gov ernmen t is vio1at ing a ba sic prin cipl e of Justice, that an accused i.s n ot to be tried twice on {he same charge. PREMIER WELLS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: No. 54. R :l!CJ

Mr. Speaker, frankly, I have seE!n the lEd: tel~, so I do not what it says . MR. WARREN: That is not my point . PREMIER WELLS: not k n OlAJ I will see it, no doubt, today or tomorrow sometime; I have been a bit busy with fish plant matters . Assuming what the hon. member is saying is correct, and I do not know with certainty that it is, but on the assumption for the moment that what he is saying about the letter is correct, I can say to the House, Mr.

Speaker, that matters of when and how people are tried, when and how trials are conducted, are matters that are decided by the law officers of the Crown involving the Director of Public Prosecutions, and p(:1rhaps a Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General.

Those are proper functions for the law officers of the Crown, and neither the Minister nor myself, nor the Government as a whole, will get involved in making those decisions unless, I suppose, the law officers submit something and ask the Attorney General for direction; they may want to change course or do something out of the ordinary, and then, I would suggest, they would probably ask the Attorney General or the Government for direction. In the ordinary course the law officers of the Crown will make the decision, and I have no doubt that they 1Ad.11 do LI.Jhat is right. I have a high level of competence .

They are thE! samE! J.aw officers hwo have been there For the last few years now, I believe. I do not think the Director of Prosecutions has Ll6 Dr?.cernber 14-, 1989 Vol XLI changed, and the people are esentially the same. high level of confidence and I haVE! no reason not confidence in what they do . MR. SPEAKER: involved I hr .. 'IV E! a in them to havE! The han. the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: My final suppJ.ementary is l.o thE! Premier, Mr. Speaker. Fi1~s l:. and foremost, it is not my problem that he does not read his mail. That is number one. Secondly, I will table the correspondence.

However, I would li.ke to ask the Premier a final supplernenta1~y. It was his Government, through law officers of the Depal~t.ITIOn l:. of Justice, that asked for a retrial. Now, would the Premier not take appropriate steps, as illustrated in this letter which he has not rec\d, and request the Department of Justice l:o IAJil:hdt"aW the action, and to sign a po1:i.cy to implement the Inuit's basic, human and aborigina1 d.ghts, and that is to begin active land claim negotiations with the Inuit peop1e? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, it is not that l do not rr::'ad rny rnail, it is thal: I spent most waking hours in the last few weeks trying to saVE! Fish plants and jobs for peop1e involved in the fisheries. M1~. Speaker, I say again, what course wi 1.1 be followed or should b(:' fol1otAJed, should be decided by the law officers of the Crown, and wil1 be decided by the law officers oF the CrotAJn, unlE!SS there is some totaJ.ly proper reason for the Attorney General, or thE! GovernrnE!nt a~; a LI.Jhole, to No . 54 1n6

make some kind of a policy decision in relation to this matter. As I undE~I~stand it, the law officers of the Crown decided to appeal the original conviction and an appeal was conducted. I have not seen the details, but my recollection from what is in the news is that the Court of Appeal on the appeal procedure had decided that there was an improper laying of the information, and all of the proceedings that took place were therefore considered a nul.li ty, and the~~ matter has to be proceeded again.

Now, we have a fundamental principle in this country that you do not place people in jeopardy twice for the same crime. MR. WARREN: Then what are you doing now? What are you doing now? MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I have listenE!d to the m~mber for Torngat Mountains interrupt the Premier continuously as he has been answering the question. I ask the member for Torngat Mountains for a final time, please, to refrain from interrupting the Premier. The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS : As I lAJas saying, Mr.

Speaker, we do have a principle that we abide by, that pE•opJ.e cannot be put into jeopardy twice. Now it might be a nice legal question as to whE!thE!r these individuals who were charged we1ne in JE!Opardy in a trial that From the beginning was a nullity. But that is something for thE! lalAJ officers of the Crown to decide, and I have no doubt that in the course of making their decision on that issue thE!Y will. take al1 of Ll7 December ·14-, 1989 Vol XLI those matters into consideration . M ~ .. :~A_~ . .Iif;~.: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair wants to makE! it quite clear that when it asks For no interruptions and comm~nts, that is what the Chair means. The hon. the Member For Burin PJ.acentia West. MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speaker, let me say to the Premier if he is busy keeping fish plants open it must be those depending on the fish in Meech Lake to survive. It. is cert.ainly not t:.he OnE!S in NetArfouncl1and cH1cl Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, ht~ar! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I again make the comment that when an hon. Member gets up to a~; k a new question that han.

ME!rnbE>r 'is not permitted to debate a ques tion that L•.Jas as ked previously. !"he hon. Member should get into the question immediately or 'into his OlAln prearnbJ.e. The hon. the Member For Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN : Mr. SpeakE!r, Municipal and (Mr. Gu1lage) works projects in this House November. He that it would House closed . has madE!, Mr. No. 5l\. the MinisteJ" oF Provincial Affairs stated that capital lAJould be announc,:;!d before the end of i:hen furl:her stal:ed be done before thE! fhe statements he Speai<E!r, and his I~ 1 '7

actions, are consistent with the action of the Premier and his Government as it relates to p1ant closures. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister, does he still intend to stick by that statement? MR. GULLAGE : ______ , __ Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : Mr. Speaker, obviously I will not make it by the end of November now. AN HON. MEMBER: That is what he was talking about (inaudible). MR.

GULLAGE: ··-·--··--• ... ooR •O- I did say in the last session of the House, the first part of this House session, that I would attempt to bring down the capital works, water and sewer and roads, before the end of thi-s year, and hopefully during this session of the House. We do not know how long this session is going to last, Mr . Speaker, I may still make that deadline. MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Member for Burin Placentia West. MR . TOBIN : Mr. Speaker, let me tell the han. gentleman that it lasted beyond the last of November, which was his commitment, number one, so hE! is as consistent as the Government.

I suggest, Mr. Speaker, in this question that the !Olinister is not going to table the capital works before the House closes because it is going to be saturated with the type of patronages that we have been witnessing in the last few L.l8 DeCE!mb'E!r 1.4, 1989 Vol XLI days . • Mr. Speaker, as thE! counci1s throughout this Province are debating capi ta1 war k s and trying to get Capital Works Pr·ogr<~Hns, I want to remind thE! MinistE•r that there are relat.ivr:~s of CE!rtain Members oppos~te who do live in my District so I would ask them to give consideration to that?

The council delegations who come into to meet with the Minister are now directed to meet t~.Jith people from the rE!gional offices. can I ask the MinistE!l" if he t..uould change that policy and 1et Councils comE! directly to h-.im l:o discuss th~ir problems? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs . MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, no I u.Jill not. changE! that policy. As a matter of fact, that policy is being welcomed by the councils. I have not heard any Council make any comment to me contrary to that.

In fact:, Hwy have said that the procedure is an excellent onE!, the oppol~l:un:i.ty of being able to met:>.t tAii.l ~h l:he regional offices that ar~:! notAJ staffed with engineers . Decentralizing the Civil Service o u t i n to l~ h e r e g i o n s i s s o mE! l: h i n q that should have bE:!E!I1 donE! few a long tirne. Mr.

Speakc~r. what I havr:~ ber:>n saying to these counci1s is it would be far wiSE!r to go to the regional offices and have consultation concerning th~-.ir capital u.Jorks, the phases of t:heir Capital Works, so that when they do meet wit. h rnE· at 1 east thE· y arE! able to talk on the basi s of hauing consulted with th e r:.~ng'.inE!E•r, havtng consu1 ted u.Ji Lh No . 54 - rns

the regional manager, and, at that point, of course, they are able to come into see the Minister, or ·to see the Deputy Minister or anybody else in here, in this building, with more knowledge of how the engineer and the regional manager feels about their particular capital works and the phases that are being recommended in the current year. MR. SPEAKER: :;-=-j1(-;- ~-hon-:--·-·the M~::~rnber for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister has now confirmed he is not willing to meet with councils and we will accept that. That is what the Min'.i.ster said, and I guess hE! is the Minister, not us.

He talks about moving thE! lnE!gional offices out in ·to the areas. Mr. Speaker, I must say the one that covers my area had a big move, from St. John 1 s to Mount Pearl . It is certainly not in the rural area. Let me ask the Minister, when he is putting forth the capital works budget, will councils who are willingly participating and discussing amalgamation be given any priority over councils who are flatly refusing to participate :! in this? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr.

Speaker, we said when we started procedure, would be the amalgamation and announced that we having feasibility conducted in some areas of the Province, would have to give studies forty-five that we priority becau SE! to these particular areas of the fact that Ll9 December 14-, 1989 Vo1 XLI throughout the feasibi1ity process and throughout the hearings process we would hav~ :! to consider several communities together rather than separately.

I think it is quite logical t.hcAt if you have two, three or four communities being constd~~red in e1n amalgamation process it is far wiser for the engineers and planners to look upon those communities as a g1noup, bE!Cause it. is more cost effective to do one large watE!r and sewer' plnojE!Ct, o1n roads project, whatev er it happE!nS to · be, versus looking at communities in isolation. So yes, Mr. Speaker, we did say tJ..JE• would give- priority considE•lnation, we would look at the cornrnunit.ies as a group if it. IAJas rno1~e cost effective to do it l:.hal~ . Luay.

Certainly an analysis would take place to deternrine whethE!r' or not it would be rnore cost effective to do it on a shared basis, co-operation between the various communities. Whether they be amalgamated or not, Mr. Speaker, that makes good common sense. MR. PARSONS : Mr. Speaker . M R . S P E A K E,.R._ : The han. the Memb er for St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is t.o the Mirds t.er oF Works, Services and rransportation.

Because of the SE~r·ious ernploylm!nl: situation caused by the Nat ional Sea closure, wher e new pr ograms and initiat ives ar E! sough t, wou1cl the Minister give serious consideration to the ca1 ling of tenders Fo1 ~ l~he Oub :'ln f\ing Road, wh ich would be E'lllp] oym erll' :. ort entE·d No. 54- Rl9

and agaJ.n would be a major sourcE! of l:!mployment for the work force whom we now find has nowhere to turn in a climate of complete hopelessn~ss? Would the Minister now allocate the millions of dollars which were earmarked for this development in St. John's and environs, and live up to what the Premier describii:'S as fairness and balance and help a desperate situation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Min:ister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, as I have told the Member before, consideration of the OutE!r Ring Road is nou.J being studied as a priority as to when the money wil1 be spent.

I might also point out to the Member that the cash flow from the Railway Agreement does not really start until 1991, so I do not think there would be much point of - MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Member for St. John's East Extern. MR. PARSONS: I am not talking about when the cash flow u.Jill start. I know that. The point rE!mains he should is give the people some hope right now J.n telling them that it going to go to tender. Mr. Speaker', my nE!Xt qur:~stton ts to the Minister' of Environrrll:!nt and Lands . A gat n , d u.e to thE! s e rio us situation that is now a reality wtth thE! closure of thE!

National Sea Plant on the Souths oi.de, whE!re hundreds of jobs are lost and the people have nowhelnE! to turn, and because there is a proposed federal facility to help the fishermE!n at Prosser Rock with an expenditure of millions of L.20 DecernbE!r 14 ·, 1989 Vol XLI dollars, again labour intensive, and ~he only holdup on this project is an environmental impact study by his Department, wou1d l:he Minister now give a ray of J.i .ght, and give this project the green light? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The BIS process is currently in process and a decision is required very shortly. At that time you will have a decision. I cannot te11 you a~ymore than that. MR. SPEAKER : ThE! han. thE! ME!rnber fol" St. John's East Exter'n. MR. PARSQNS: Mr. Speaker, that has bE!r:•n ongcd.ng now for the last year. AN HON. MEMBER: No, it has not . MR. PARSONS: Oh yes it has. Longer than a year . I think it. is about tirne For LhE! finally get this thing We are going to Ios10! The potn t rE~rna.i.ns you Minister to Finalized. the money . do not care about l:he Fish~H'Ifl(~n.

Let me ask the Min:isLer of Wo1nks, Services and fransportation, because he is laughtng over there, getting a great joke out: oF 600 people from arqund St. John's c:u1d the St. John's al"t:~a, gel:.l:ing a great kick out of those people being um'rnployed, is Lhe Ministr:'r telling the people of this area l~.hat: because they a1ne res-idents of St . John's he has no intention of lifting a finger to help? Is t.hat No. 54- R20

tAJhat hP is St. John•s? people over to say, or your own? people of St. telling the people of MR. HYNES: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Is that what your there are telling you are you doing this on Come clean with the John•s. The hon . the Member for Trinity North. MR. HYNES : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is related to the fishery and I would like to address it to the Premier . I would like the Premier to inform this House who tAJill be making the final d•:!cisions as to what plants will be closing in the Province if and when FPI decides to cJ.ose plants.

Will it be the executives of FPI, or will it be this Government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker, it t.~,lill not~ be the Government. The Government has set dotJJn the principles that the Government expects to be followed. We made that clear to both NaU .onal Sea Products and to FPI, and tAJe did :it essentially in thE!Se tE!rms: You must bE!ar in mind you may have enterprise allocations, but those fish offshore are not assets on the balance sheet of either FPI or National Sea Products.

We understand you have to make decisions that will provide for the continued viability of the company within reason, because not much is going to be gained by saving one plant here and three months later causing six morE• to L21 December 14, 1989 Vol XLI be closed because the company is bankrupt. So you have to baJ.ance the overall interest. WE! understand, companies, that you have to do that, but when you make these decisions, you must take into account the overall impact of your dE!Cisions on the people as a whole in the Pl~ovince and, in particular, on people in one-industry communities.

You must. take that into account, as well. That does not say that you cannot E!VE!r close down a Rarnea, o1~ you cannot ever close do tJJn a Burgeo. We understand that that can happen. If all of the other conditions make it ri~~ht, on occasion that can happE!n. We understand- that. But you lTIUst take into account the overall interests of the people of lhis Provine•::' and if plant closur 'H is the only mE!ans by which it can bE! achieved, then we understand that . But it is essen tially thE! company•s decision.

To th e best of my knowledge, the Federal Government has no right to die tate what. plants should or should not close. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. PARSONS : If you were economy, you John•s. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, an stAler. It question. PREMIER WELLS : thinking would not it . is a was only ab ou t cl oS E! th e St . very long a short If I am not interrupted, I will finish it very quickly . Neither the Federal Govern rrwnt nor the Province have the rig ht to dictate which plant 1nust st ay open unl ess e ither or both are pr epared No .. 54 I~ 2 1

to subsidize the cost of keeping that plant open; then there is a right, in the case of FPI only, but not in the case of National Sea Products. However, that migl1t throw our whole fishing industry in jeopardy if it results in countervailing duties being applied. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Trinity North, on a supplementary. MR. HYNES: Mr. Speaker, if what the Premier is saying is so, and I have no reason to disbelieve him, then he had better call in the Chief Executive Officer of FPI and have a pow wow with hirn.

Because just last week, at a meeting attended by the Mayor of Port Union and the Mayor of Catalina, as well as councillors from both communities, held in Mr. Young•s office, Mr. Young said that although FPI have no intentions at this time of closing the Port Union facility, the ultimate decision rests with the Provincial Government. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. HYNES: Mr.

Speaker, rny supplementary question to the Premier is this: I would like the Premier to assure l:he residents of the District of Trinity North and, more particularly, I guess, l:he workers at the plant in Port Union, that my sitting in this House as an independent MHA will have no bearing on the closure of that plant, should it close. Because if my position in this House werE! detrimental to that plant, then, Mr. Speaker, you would have my immediate resignation. MR. SPEAKE'R: L22 DecernbE!r 14-, 1989 Vol XLI • ThE! hon. the PrE!rni~::~r .

PREMIER WELLS: I am not sure ther~"! is a ques !:.ion there, but I would ltke to con'ect: the misstatements that. tAJerr:?. made. I can say with absolutE! CE!r tainty that it is not up to the Provincial Government and, ftnorn what I know of the cornpete•nct~ and basic honesty of Mr. Young - or at least I havr:' always found hirn up to this point, at Jeast, t:o be competent and basically honest - I do not think hE! E!Ver made such a statement . So the han. tTlr:'ntbr:!r must be misinformed, and I can only assume that hE! has bE!r:!n misinformed, because no such statement ~as been made.

As to !:he other comrnE!I"rl he rnadE! about the plant bei ng in j E!Opat"dy because the hon. member is sit.t.:i.nq in the House, I haVE! no idea what he is talking about or why he should assume the plant is in jeopardy because ht~ is sitting in the House. Whether he stt.s in the House 01n he does not sil: . in the House, I doubt very much that it: will make any impression on the Board of Directors of Fishery Products . I do not think they will consider it for one minute. MR. SPEAKER : Question Period has expired . Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Prerrd.E!In .

PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Spr::'aker, yesterday I s l:.ar ted to give an answer but I ran into Private Membr:'r' s Day and IAJBS callE!d to order, and I rnay say, properly so. I tAla s 110 l:. tAJal:ching No. SIJ. R22

the clock. The day before, I think, Mr. Speaker, it was the Leader of the Opposition who asked the question as to whether National Sea Products have plans of mothballing the plant in St. John 1 s, or if they can find somebody to buy it. I cannot say with certainty, but I will undertake to find out and advise the House, so I told the House I would undertake to advisE! the House and I received advice from National Sea Products as follows: 'At the News conference on Monday, I was asked if the St. John's plant was for sale. I res ponded that if the company received a serious offer for the St.

John 1 s plant we would give it serious consideration, but that no offer had been received. Our current plan continues to be to operate the plant until March 5th, and beyond that date, ·to operate St. John 1 s as a trawler port only. 1 That was signed by Murray Coolican, the Vice-President, Government Relations.

The question was also asked about whether or not the plant would likely come back into operation if there was an increase in the allocation, so I asked them to advise me as to tht~ir position on that as well and here is the advice with respect to that matter. 'The question has been asked, what happens if the stocks recover. This is not a simple question to answer, because any decision National Sea might make would depend upon the rate and timing of the recovery of the stock. Which species recover and the fishing areas in which the recovery takes pl~ce.

The plan that National Sea announced on Monday will give us the flexibility to rE!Spond, should the stocks recover and our quotas increase. First, we wiJ.l still have a significant capacity in our L.23 DecernbE•r 14, 1989 Vol XLI plants to handle increases that might occur both in Newfoundland and in Nova Scotia. Second, ·the plants in Canso and St. John's will be mothba1led to protect the equipment and the buildings. This plan will allow the company to process our share of the quota when the stocks recover. 1 Now, Mr.

Speaker, ·I was not satisfiE!d that that answer really addressed the question, because the questi.on I put to him, tA.Jas that, tt is rny understanding that National Sea Products intends that after the re,ducU.on takes plaCE! it would be operating its plants at: about ninety per cent of capacity, which is markedly different from the approach t11at FPI is taking, which I believe is somewhere in the vicinity of sixty-five per cent of capacity, so that, obviously th(OH'e would be a great deal more room to absorb additional fish in the case of FPI, and his response on the telephone, was. to the effect that they did not rate their productive capacity in the same way that FPI did.

Well, I do not know whE!lhE!In they did, or not, but I had the clear understanding from them in our earlier conversations that they wE•rE~ looking at. sornethin<:J in the neighbourhood of ninety per cent capacity, so, what I conclude from all of the information thal:. I have and I cannot say that I have precise information, is that, if there is any significant increaSE!, and he did say this l~o rne, because I put it to hirn directJ.y. if there is any significant increase in l~he stocks availablE!, they uJouJ.d bE! in a position to reopen one of t:he closed plants.

He woul.d not Sc\Y whether it would be Canso Ol" St. John's. but hE' d.id say they uJou]d be in a position l~o reopen o1w of the closed plants. otherwise for a relatively small, say, 500 or 1,000 ton increase, hE! said, lAJC:' could absorb that with the No. 54. r~ 2 3

additional nov.J. And information matter, Mr. capacity that is that I Speaker . that the have we have ful1est on the MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the ME!mber for Kilbride (Mr. Aylward) as ked a q~estion about the contract for the Loop Road pavement and the Hillview extension and Contract No. 6688. Now first of all I v.Jould like to correct the hon. Member in the

preamble to the question. Contract No. 6688 was not extended to accommodate the paving of the road in front of the Premier's brother's home or· any other horne in the area. The extension, including the pavement oF this

section of the Loop Road was done to correct the serious drainage problem. Now I hE!ard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rideout) make some statements today. So in response to Member's question the lJ..Jas still in the area the 01niginaJ. contract the contract was Consequentially he the han. contractor working on at the U.me grantE!d. lJ..Jas not requested to come back to finish again I the pavem10~nt. And reiterate - MR. RIDEOUT: They had finished their job and moved . MR. GILBEIH: I reiterate now that similar instance raised by the han. Member previously.

This work was L24 Decemb~:~r 14, 1989 Vol XLI undertaken in recognition of serious problem that existed needed to be corrected, and I the in future continue to addrE!SS problems, as J.ong as I arn Minister of Works, Services Transportation and where, in opinion, and the opinion of my officials, the. action need10~d to be taken. and lAJi.ll such the and my SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. GULLAGE: Mln. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Thehon-·:·····-t-he Minister of Municipal and Provin~ial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, seVE!ral days ago I was asked a question by the Member for St.

John's East, Shann:ie DuU-, concerning the suggestion that land next to City Hall - MR. TOBIN: Oh, listen to him now . AN HON. MEMBER: The Member for St. John's East. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Mernber should Mernber. I arn sor·ry, refer to the hon . whichever District. The hon. the Mi.nister . MR. GULLAGE: not na111u a hE! should Member ,~-or Mr. Speaker, seVE!ral days ago I was asked a question by the Member for St. John's East (Ms Duff) concerning a suggestion that land next to City Ha11 be used by U1e Province for an art ga1.1E•ry and a theatre complex .

Specifically the Member was asking questions No. 54 I~ 24

to the timing of a relatE!d decision. to proceed then might facility? And if the Province was on that location what be included in the new When I answered the Member 1 s questions I was in the process of finalizing the appointment of Walter Noel, MHA for Pleasantville as Chairman of a Cornrni t tee which would be given responsibil.i i:y for examining thE! feasibility of such a proposal and report directly to me as quickly as possible. I said at the time I realized the urgency of making a decision pertaining to the land offered by the St.

John 1 s City Council, given the deadline for such a decision as May 31, 1990. This matter will be considered by Mr. Noel 1 s Committee with consideration for the possible need of an art gallery and a 400 seat theatre. Also I have asked the hon. Member to ~onsult with Mr. William Frost, Assistant Deputy Minister of Culture, Historic Resources Communications and Youth and co-ordinate with his Committee as well in consideration of their work regarding a new museum and archives building. I would hope that this better answers the questions of the Member for St. John 1 s East. I know Mr.

Noel will be consulting with ME•rnbE!rS of the Arts Community, previous studies available, and also members of elected councils. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! ·MR. SPEAKER : Before proceeding on to the next item of business the Chair had meant to make a cornrnent after the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation finished the answer to his question but because there L.2S . DE!cernber 14 ., 1989 Vol XLI was a lot of talking going on I could not. I shall do it he1~e.

On a couple of occasions the Chair has noticed that after sornE!On~~ has given an answer there has been loud rumblings in the HousE• be fore we gE!t onto the nE!Xt i tern. To a certain extent ·that is tolerable , but when it involves a sort of derision as to the answer· giVE!n, and that kind of dE!ri s:i v~;:~ laughter, with res peeL to that matter, the Chair neE•ds l:.o point out a very important clause by BeauchesnE!, Page 12 1), 428, which points out thai: it is not proper for anyone to irnpugn thE! accuracy of information conveyed to t:he House by a MinistE!r. I wan t hon. Members to-be aware of that. MR.

SIMMS : What book was that? MR. SPEAKER : Beauchesne 428. Petitions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mernber for Lewisporte . MR. PENNEY: Mr. Speaker, I tAJish to pre s ~~nl~ . a petition frorn th E! No LrE! DarllE! Branch of th e Newfoundl and Tea chE!rS 1 Asso ciatio n pE!r 'lc d n J n ~1 to l:he Tea chers 1 Pensi on Pl. an. Mr. Speaker, in showing Honour this petition before, was explained to me that:. it not done in the proper fash lon. MR. SPEAKER: Order. please! You1~ tt tAJas I just want to point out again t.o han . Members that the hon .

Member for L.ewisporte ha s a petition frorn a group of tc: •achers. the NTA. No. '.>4· R2 1:i

-naking certain requests about teache!r' s pensions. The petition is not properly worded, it does not have the proper procedure, and again, it is the duty of the Chair to point out to hon. Members that the petition is not in the right form, and to simply ask whether the Member has leave of the House to present the petition? MR. SIMMS: Is-~sig.ned by three people? MR. PENNEY : It is signed by over 200 . MR. SIMMS : We have no problem with it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR. BAKER : Your Honour, I understand that you have seen it .

I have not looked through it but if Your Honour feels that the spirit. of the proposal is that this be presented to the House, or the petition be presented to this hon. House, then I am quite willing to accept it even though it is not in the prescribed form. MR . SPEAKER: Again, the Chair can only say to han. Members that it dOE!S not at all meet the requirements for the House in terms of petitions, but again, we have allowed that to happen in the past. That is the difficulty when we allow one to pass whE!n it is not in the form . The Chair can only be directed by what hon. Members say.

So, I take it tha l: the hon. Member has leave to proceed with the petition. MR. PENNEY : Thank you, Mr. Speab:!r, and I L2 ·6 December 14 -, 1989 Vol XLI thank all hon. Members for leave. I will read the pE!ti.t.ion as :it. is written. It is from the Newfoundland Teacher's Association, Notre Dame br·anch. A unique teacher's pE!nsion pJ.an hc:ts been developed in Newfoundland and Labrador over several decades. The proposed .. Federal Tax l~efor·m Legislation wi11 nE!gaU.vely irnpacl:. o n t h i s p 1 a n .

I t tAli. 11 h a v E! t h e effect of strippiing frorn us, and a new generation of Newfoundland teachers, pension benefits whi ch have been acquired in good faith at considerable cost and effort through collective bargaining. It is strongly recommendE!d by us, the teachers of the Notre Dame Bl''i:Hlch of the -Newfoundland Teacher's Association, that the proposed pension rE•fonns be abandonE·d. WE:! will not tolerate any tampering with our pE•nsion bE!nefi ts, 01~ premiums, and that any discussions re. proposed changE•s must occut~ at the bargaining table. rhis petition, Mr.

Speaker, is sigrwcl by 205 members of that branch. Mr. Speaker, on December 7 the representative of th~;;' hon. the Member for the district of TwillingatE! (Mr. CaJ~tE!

r) and I mot with the Notre Darne Branch of l:h1?. NTA in Lewisporte at which tirne they gave us a pres,?.ntation VE•ry eloquently expressing their concerns. Their concerns were that the proposed fE!deraJ. tax reform tAJill reduce l:he accrual ratE• from 2. 22 per CE!nt to 2 per cent thus reducing the bE!ntd'it frorn 66 2/3 per cent dov.Jn to 60 per cent. That national pension rE!forrn would lirn:i t the crE!di t for ' pensionable service l:o a tot.a.l of five years for maternity leave, for example, fr•om l:he existing unlimited maternity leaves. In this regard they considE!r that- l:he reforms arE! discriminatory aga insl: v.Jol'Jien . That under l:he propos,:-d No. 54 - R26

reforms teachers will be limited to a maximum RRSP contribuU.on of $600 compared to over $2000 for their counterparts in other provinces. That since the Newfoundland Government did not contribute to the NTA pension plan from 1958 to 1981 thel~e is now a significant deficit in the plan and that the Members fear the plan is now inadequate to meet the prescribed benefits. Mr. Speaker, the concerns members who and on their thE! petition Assembly. MR.

SPEAKER: these were some of expressed by the 205 signed this petition behalf I now present to the House of Before recognizing another speaker or moving to the next item of business, thE! Chair would like on behalf of hon. Members to welcome to the public galleries today St. John's Councillor, Mr . Andy Wells . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's the Capes. MR. HEARN: fhank you, Mr . Speaker . We stand in support of the petition as presented by the MembE!r for Let.~.Jisporte.

I suggest to him that he and a number of other Members will be busy people prE!senting petitions bE!cause I am sure there will be many, many more corning. The teachers of the Province are extremely concerned about their pension . Not only the effect that any new Federal legislation wilJ have, bE!cause we understand accommodations there might be in the process of being worked ou 't, L27 December 14 -, 1989 VoJ.

XLI A couple of years ago, I had the privilE!ge of go:ing to Ottawa lAd th the Presid•:!nt of the Newfoundland Teacher's Association and some other officials to m•O:)et with l:he Minister of National Revenue at the time, to discuss this very issue. At that time we were given assurances as ... we1l as they could give , I - s up p o s e , that t-he 2 . 2 would stay in effect . I have every indication even to th is very day that l:hat wi11 be adhered to even though new changes take place. What thE!Y should be concerned with, however, is the lack of concern and support that th<:'Y ar'E! getting from l:he Province.

Of course, they have spell.E!d that out not only in the petition but in other correspondence to th e various Ministers and to the public general.ly. The teachers of the Province spend twenty-five or thirty -year s or more in th e cla ssroom. It is not an easy job. And l:he benefil:s that they derive are the onl.y things that they have to fa11 back on .

If you spend thirty or rnol~E ! years in l:he cla ssroom then I think you certa inly de serve a pension. rhey are VE!Iny concerned about what is happen ing in relation to their pensi on plan, from rumor s emana ting from th e ax e job that l:he MinistHI~ of Finane•~ is doing and th e Presiden t of freasury Board. And l:heir only hope, I suppose, is th at Lhe Minisl:er of Edu cation wil.l st and up for th E!Tn, as thE! Minister s of Education in the past have done.

The forrner GovernrnE!nt. plannE!d, as the teachers know well, to address the deficit tha t was there and hopefully l:he pres ent Gov ernment wil.l continue to do that a]so . Finally, Mr . Speaker, one of . tlw 1najor conc erns l:hat the t ea. ch~~rs No. 54- R27

might have is in relation to changes being made in their pension plan arbitrarily by the Government. They are quite right when they ask that any changes being contemplated be discussed at. the bargaining table, which is the place that any changes to that plan have to take place now unless they tamper with clause 27 of the Collective Agreement. So if the Government tampers with teachers' pensions I would suggest to them that they can look forward to many, many more petitions coming. We will certainly support them in the line that they are taking in this one and I am sure others that will follow. MR.

SPEAKER : ThE:~ ~10n . the Government House Leader. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . First of all let me start of by saying most of what the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes just said is simply not true. A lot has been happening that obviously he is not aware of an d inadvertently he has been saying some things that are not quite true . ThE! tE!aChE!rs in the ProvinCE! have received total and absolute support from this Government in their concerns about the federal pension lE!gislation, total and absolute support and not as the hon. ME!rnber oppositE! says, no support.

I myself have been in contact with federal peoplE•. I have writtE!n a letter of complete support to Michael Wilson who immediately passed the letter over to John McDermid, I believe, who is the Minister responsible For handling the pension legislation in the L28 December 14-, 1989 Vol XLI .. House . The Minister called me a fl=?.W days after and inforrnE!d rnE:~ that. he had my letter and wanted to know if we could ar1nange ITIE!etings. We did.

The meetings were arranged between myself, representing the Gover11ment, representing Treasury Board, and the NTA and the Fr:1dera1 people, where they explairwd Fully the implications of the Federal pension changes . Mr. Speaker, WE:~ have bE!en totally, absolutely and compl etely supportive of the b:=!achers oin this Province wj th regard to their pension concer·ns about the F1~der·al Pension Pian . I believe that if the teachers of the Province do not know it now, they u.d. .l"l in the future.

There is a great deal. of aJ.arrn:i s L co rnm en t , to the extent ·that a 1 o l: of teache·rs in this P1novince arE· not realoizing there is a little game going on hE!re and ar' E! rE!a11y losing sl1:!E!p over th:is, are really concerned that ten YE!ars down thE! road they wtll not haVE! a pE•ns:i.on plan. It is happening, and it 1.s unfortunate, in a lAJay, brc!CaUSI? what they are assuming is that nothing can be done . It is really unfortunate that that impression is being given to teachers. In act .ual fact, Mr.

Sp eakE!r, aFh~ln doing an analys is of the Fecl e1na l proposal s - now the Feder al Governrnc;!nt have ind:icated they intend to go ahead tAJith the 2 per cent accrua1 ratE!, pE!I"iocl. They will not ch ange that. How ever , they arE! making a11otAJdnces fo1 " what they call off side plans to coVE!r thE! other .22 pE!I" cen t: accrual rate, and they ar e s ay i.ng to people in this Province who have the concerns, that our Federal regulat ions will no t No . 54- R28

~· aff~ct your pension plan. However, Mr. Speaker, there is a slight problem, in that what the Federal Government are proposing - and I had an analysis done which was given to me only very, very recently - in terms of pension changes will change the current service cosfs of the plan ·and will probably increase the current service costs by at least 1.9 per cent. So there are some problems with it . With regard to us not giving them support L99 December 14, 1989 Vol -· ~9

.... with the Federal Government, Mr. Speaker, I just reiterate again, we have given them total and absolute support. I have had many conversations with the NTA executive about this. We have now started, within the last couple of days as a matter of fact, the negotiating process for this year, and that is one of the items that will be discussed. I refuse to get into details in term~ of pensions. I do not want to do this openly, and all I can say, Mr. Speaker, is we have given them 100 per cent support and we are now starting negotiations for the next year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Orders of the Dav MR.

BAKER: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Social Services to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Day Care And Homemaker Services Act, 1975," carried. (Bill No. ~ On motion, Bill No. 57 read a fi rst time , ordered read a -- - second time, on tomorrow. MR. "BAKER: Order 3. On motion, a Bill, Give Effect ''An Act To To the International Convention On The No. 54 - .. r ,.. . - 30

" t~Ji 3o) Law Applicable To ~rusts And Their Recognition ", read a third time, ordered passed and its t~tle be as on the Order Paper . MR . BAKER: Order 4. On motion , a bill, "An Act{ ·A031) Respecting The United Nations f;~ Convention On Contracts For Th~ International Sale Of Goods", read a third timeJ ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. BAKER: Order 17 . Motion, second reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend And Consolidate The Law Relating To Public Utilities. " @ill No. 4 4) • ~ ~-· MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Justice . 1MB: DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr .

Speaker, earlier, some time ago, the Public Utilities Board Act which has been in existence in this Province for quite some time was reviewed and the report submitted to this House . Arising out of those reco'rrunendations which included, I believe, the Chairman of the Board of Co mmission of Public Utilit ies - AN HON. MEM BER : L101 Dece mber 14, 1989 Vol , ...... .. -;o(c<)

(Inaudible) MR. DICKS: You cannot hear? The Member claims he cannot me, Mr. Speaker. I certainly speak up for benefit. hon. hear will his Arising out of those recommendations, Mr. Speaker, a new Act was prepared which is essentially on track with the recommendations that were made. I would point out that some of the substantial changes in the Act include a different mode of appointment for commissioners. As it presently stands, the commissioners are appointed for a fixed term to age seventy, and hold office till that age and subsequent retirement, one presumes. But under the new Act the number is essentially changed. ----·

Section 6, subparagraph one provides for three full-time members with an additional number of part-time members which shall not exceed six. Those part-time members can hold office for a term not to exceed seven years and are eligible for reappointment, The intent of the Government in changing the present procedure for appointment of commissioners is to · enable various regions of the Province to have representation on the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities, and also to enable hearings to take place No. 54 - - r ,... jo(

l) more expeditiously with some greater degree of sensitivity one holds for local concern. I mean, it is sometimes the case that a Board of Commissioners finds it difficulty to travel to different parts of the Island for certain hearings, a~d this should help alleviate that. Although, I must say that for all intents and purposes where such applications are received and reviewed, the Board has, in fact, travelled and entered most of these types of matters. As the

Section provides, new commi >sioners will be appointed in due course. The powers of the Public Utilities Commission, Mr. Speaker, will be not only reaffirmed, but also strengthened and, by subsequent enactments, enlarged.

We will see the Public ~Utilities Board of this Province playing a greater role than it has, although it may lose jurisdiction over the telephone industry as the result of a ~ase in Alberta - the Alberta telephones case - which essentially said that those enterprises are to be governed by the Federal board, which, in this case, would be the CRTC, which, by some curious enactment, is under the Railway Act. But in any event, Mr. Speaker, we do have hopes that the new board as presently constituted will have enlarged powers, beyond those that the present L103 December 14, 1989 Vol .. 'jO(

c) board holds; that its new structure will enable it to operate more fully and on a more efficient basis. This, of course, is not meant as any slight to the existing board which has done an extremely good job, althoug h it has been based in St. John' s for many years . There are other provisions in the Ac~. So me controversy has arisen in the past concerning the previous Government's appointment of a consumer advocate to sit as a commissioner .

The present Act attempts to deal with that by not providing for a co:1sumer advocate on the Board, where the Supre me Court, it has been argued before, may be in a conflict of interest, but rather for the Government and Lieutenant -Governor in Council to have authority to appoint an office of consumer advocate which will then be funded by the Board . So, we as the Government recog nize that there is the need for consumers to have adequate representation before but not on ~~ ( - -

the Board, since we feel that there is, indeed, some likelihood that there is a perceived bias in having that position on the Board itself which is required to act in a judicial manner. As I say, Mr. Speaker. none of l:he provisions of the Act are any reflection- on the present Board which I think has functionE!d very well for many years and done an eXE!mplary job in many arE!aS.

What we have to review is the manner in which the Board is constituted, and to that end we have to take recognition of ongoing judicial decisions, which include a case before the Supreme Court of Newfoundland a l:. the present time. as well as the Alberta telephone case, which is going to encroach on the jurisdiction of the Board as it is presently constituted. However I Mr.

Speaker, we have left in the Act references to telecommunications, in the eventuality and the hope, if not the expectation I that the Fe!deral Government may. in fact I leave some of this jurisdiction with the Provincial Board of Public Utilities for some period of time. We, ourse!lves, are of the view that our Public Utilities Board has done an excellent job of regulating our provincial utilities and we would prefer them to continue with that particular authority. Nevertheless, given the case, it may not be possible for us to do so. The provision respecting consumer advocate is found in

section 117 of the Act, and, I think, will meet with general approval as well. There are some consequential amendments to other Acts. M1~. Speaker. but I would hope that l::he present Act, in that it is L31 December 14, 1.989 Vol XU recognizing some recommendations, iF not all I com:lng fl~orn a committee that has re•porl::E!d to this House, will meet with the approbation and unanimous consE!nt of this Legislature . I commend it to the Legislature, and on that basis. move second rE!ad:lng. fhank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hE:~ar! MR. SPEAKER: Before the Chair recognizes the hon. Member.

I would lib"~ to IAJelcorne to the gallE!ry. on bE!ha1f of all han. Members of l:.his Hou~~e. Mayor Tony Ryan of Port Saundr:~rs. and two of-the Councillors. SOME HON . MEMBERS: HE!ar, hear! MR. WOODFORD : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Me:'m~H:'r fol~ 'HumbE·r Valley. MR. WOODFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, it was just l:his morning we had this Bill come beforE! our committee, thE! Resource Legislative Review Committee. We had some considerab]e discussion on it IAJi t h the oFfici a 1 s p r t:' s E! n l: at the time.

Some of Lhe questions asked and some of the concerns that carne out of l.hE! meeting were on threl=>. or r=-our major clauses and major amendmen-ts. OnE:~ of the conce1nns I had was the fact that when this Bill was in-troduced I or l::he report was subrnitt.ed to GovermTlE!nt, I think it IAJas last June, or some time late last spring, in any case. the Premier at l:hal:. l:'."i_me stated that one of the reasons why No. 54 rn1

they were holding off on it was so that the public and any interested groups, including consumers, would be able to have some input before legislation was introduced. Mr. Speaker, when thE! report was brought in and when the committee of three met, they met with some o·f the utilities involved, namely, I think, Newfoundland TeJ. and Newfoundland Hydro and Newfoundland Light and Power, but at no time during the hearings was · the pubJ.ic invited to partake.

Now one of the main reasons that I see going through the Bill, comparing it with the other Bill, is to put in a clause, I think it is 117, concerning a consumer advocatE!. At the same timE!, one of the most important reasons t..o.Jhy the committee looked at this Bill and made its recommendations, was to include the public sector, which had no input whatsoever, none, there were just the utilities who had a vested interE!St, in any case, and who would have to, under the reign of this commission, take the brunt of whatever their decisions were. Now the consumer advocate on the Board: I think it is

Section 117 of the Act which states, 'The Lieutenant-Governor in Council wiJ.l appoint a consumer advocate'. AN HON. MEMBER : May. MR. WOODFORD: May appoint this consumer advocate. But it is clear that it is a consumer advocate instead of a consumer rep on the Board itself, acting as a cornmissionE!r. Now my experience over the years, and the hon. the ME!mber for GandE!r is certainly aware of this, with the Federation of Municipalities in the Province, it was tl1e only one who could act as 'an L32 December 14-, 1989 •' .. Vol XLI interVE!nor.

I bel:i.eVE! soJnE!OrlE! else was brought on after that, if I am not mistaken, but for a number of years the Federation of Municipalities in the Province were the only ones recognized, I should say, by Governrnent to act. as intervenors. They used to pickup . thE! tab if they l~uJ.ed favourably, but they were thE! ones to intervene. Now, one of the things that I Found, serving as a represr?.nt.al:ive of the Federation of Municipalities, was that when you walked into those hearings, if it. was Newfoundland Light or if it was Newfoundland TE!lephonE!, thE!

Board sat there, the Public UtiJ.ities Board itself, and the companies or the uti1i tiE!S had a bat tE!ry - a battE!ry - of lawy E• r s, auditors, a11 kinds of consultants, everything. And not only did they have l:hem l:hE•re that given day, those pE!OplE• lAJr::•rE• retained for months and yr:'ars, retained, doing nothing ~lse but looking at the issues of rate increases · by public utilities across Canada and in this Province. I do not haVE! to tE!] J any Member of this House l:.hr?. complexities involved when the requ•?st comes in for a r·atr::> hike by any of the util:itiE•s.

It is one of the most complex issues, and one of t:he rnos t: cornp1C:'!X problems and whatever you have associated with any request today comes in under thois. They baffle you with figures and they blind you and they snow you undr:!r, thr.:'y try to do it alJ., but thE! thing l found was they had it, and the Federation of MunicipaJ.ities, which was actoing as an <intervenor, did not. They wer'E! sort of loimited, And if they did have the funds to have someone there to represt:'nt thr::~m, they probably had a week or· ten days, two wE:•E!I<s or No. 1~4- 1n2

probably a month at t.he most, to get a fellotJJ in and put together all the stats, wilhout access to the stats from the utilities themselves. There was absolutely nothing to go on, except For what they had from another Province, or something like that.

But, then, Government in its wisdom appointed a consumer rep to the Board, albeit a commissioner, albeit he was a paid cornrrd.ssioner of the Board, and I understand that some of the concerns that people had, and Government itself, was because of the jurisdiction question of having that representative sit on the Board as a Commissioner, getting paid, that probably there would be a conflict. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. WOODFORD : report.. The report I The officials in the Well, in the should say. recommendation implementation. and not in the Recommendation is one thing, implementation is another.

But one oF the things that happened after this consumer rep was appointed, regardless of whether he was getting paid, regardless oF his being a commissioneln, or whatever, one of the things that happened in this Province JJJas tha t finaJ.ly the consumers of this Province, including aJ.J. of us herE!, had what you would call real representation when it camE! l~.o the consumers in this Province. He is in the House today, and I do not mind · saying it.

I served with him on the Federation of Municipalities beFore ever I got into Provincial politics, and I do not think for one minute if you went around each L33 Decernb10:~r 14-, 1989 Vol XU and every municipality in this Province today, even the municipalities represented by Members opposite, and asked them when thE!Y got good representation on behalf of the consumers in this Province on the PubJ.ic Utiliti es Board, I would say, bar none, if you talked to .the leaders in tho se communities, the mayors and whomever is involved, they finally had it IJ.Jith Andy Wells. Th(!rc'.! is no doubt about that.

There :i.s no question. He spoke up. He tJJas aliJ.Jays vod .ferous. I name s orne oF regard to the John's. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. WOODFORD: wil1 not go on l:o the other things .in City CounciJ. in St.. He has been call ed a lot IJ.Jor se . But he was not afraid to speak up, and that. is what we wanted . That is what we aJ.t.uay s wan te d a s municipal leaders and as politicians. No matter what stripe, no mat ·ter whom he represent ed or lJJhat communi t.y you represented, you want E·d sotnecHlt o! to stick up for the pE!Ople. That :is the bottom-line with this.

The most important mernbe 1n on th at Commission in this Province today is the consum er J~E!p, as f eu~ as 1 am concerned . Whe th E!r ·11 :. is Andy Wel1 s or any body el se, the rnos t important rnernber on it is the commissioner repre se nting th e consumers. He spoke up, and For the first tirne, o1n one of the first times, and I stand t.o be corrected - I do no t think we have ever se E•n a rollback in rat. es in this Province befotne ···· t.het"e wa s a rollback in Newfoundland T C:~ l since he becam e rep, if I arn not. rnistakE!n . NotJJ, l:.hat say s something . No. 54- ID3

Although there is a Clause in "·'c .:, I think it is

Section 120, ..... .:.::;: s~:J.ys thaf under the good behaviour clause the Government can now remove all existing commissioners, Subsection (2) states that the Government also has the power to reappoint the members. The question I ask is, because the individual is doing such an excellent job on behalf of the consumers of the Province, wo u 1 d i t not bE! a good ide a for Government to take him into consideration when they make U1eir reappointments? The record is there and he is onE! of the most knowledgeable.

I could even go so far as to say that. in Atlantic Canada today, when it comes to a consumer rep, he is the most knowledgeable when it comes to public utilities and rate increases, whether it be Newfoundland Telephone, Newfoundland Light and Power, or whatever. I am saying this because I am speaking to the Bill, not because he is here in the House today . You can ask community leaders in the Province . I know pretty well a1l of them, and they will tell you the same thing, bar any po1itical stripe.

One of the suggestions I would 1ike Cabinet to take into consideration is the record of the individual, regard1ess of whether it is consumer advocate or consumer rep, or whatever it might be, but take into consideration first consumers in the Province. That is the basic bottom line. AN HON. MEMBER : Ask the question to the Minister of Justice. MR . TOBIN : Yes, the President of Treasury Board is outside. L3'1 DE!cernber 14, 1989 Vol XLI ·. MR. WOODFORD: Anyway it. is in Hansard Members tAli 11 on the record. and I am sure take notice. It is hon.

And the consumer advocate thing with rE!gard s to thE! funding - it is in the recommendations, but it is nowherE! in the Act, and I know you cannot put everything in the Act. But it is there for the appointment of a consumer advocate by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. But a1so the rnain thtng is to haVE! thE! funding ther~~, helVE! the resources for this person to be a b 1 e to d raw o n . Tho s e resources not only include, Mr . Speaker, staff whose funding and other tec~nological equipment he will need, or other access to consultants, no matter wherE! U1"~Y rnJ.ght be, that is E>xactJ.y what: . tAlE' need.

We have to to present. our case. Those uti1.ities, likE! I said before, are ready. They an~ ready be1ieve you me. I would love to be able to run a busJ.ness, any ME!mbE !r wou1.d, and be told you are guaranteed a profit. Every salary paid to the commissioners even, to the presid•O!nts and t:h•:?. vice-presidents, and no matter what you have on those ut .i1il:.:i.es comes on the backs of the consumers in this Province. We have to ~lave sotrtE!OnE! thet~E! tAJho is going to repre sent them - and I tTIE!an bE• strong in their cri ticism and not be afratd .

And tA.J1:• have everything from saJ.ad.E!S t":i.qht on down on the back of !:he consumers. So that "is tA.Jhy it has to be watched as one of thE• rnos t important Boards we have in the Province today . MR. TOBIN : And l:he best Canada. MR . WOODFORD : rnan in Atlantic I know the r(-?.commendat.ions are No. 54 R3'1

good - some of the recommendations there are good. There is no doubt about that. You cannot take away from that. And you cannot take away from the clause of some of thE! amendments that are in here. I have some concerns about the consumer advocate part of it, how it is going to be handled, the approach that is going to be taken, lJ..Jhat they are going to do, the experience of a person involved, because that means an ·awful lot. I think there are tl'nnee boatnd members appointed. The recommendations stated I believe that two members be appointed, I think it is three part-time members.

In thE! act I think it says three Full time members and six part-time rrtE!rnbers. I sort of question the six part-time members because one of the reasons why it was dropped from being a six member Board, full tirne positions, was because of the de-regulations introduced, I think it was 'last year, by the Federal Government. A lot of the de -regulations of trucking in particular. The jurisdiction for the motor carrier function moved out of the Board and into the Department of Transportation.

And more specifically the inspections are done by Transportation nou.J, I believe that carne out of the meeting· this morning. So that would cut down on the work of the Board, although I do not think there was a hell of a lot went to them. But that would cut down on the work of the Board. So to have the three full time members. there is no problE!m wi t.h it . The six part -time members - I question the logic of having six part-time members · there unless thE!Y u.Jould ·be somE! of the rE!Search staff or something like that. L35 DE!cernber 14-, 1989 Vol XLI That would be a r:3ood move.

If there are going to be people there who are experienced in the fiE!ld and they are going to use them, get the best buck for your dolJ.ar. They are sitting as part-time commissioners and they also got a knowledge of what the system is all about. That tAJould be a dual role. So that would bE! an excellent way to set up the Board and I am sure that the Minister will take that into account. One of the other things that is not in the legislation - there are no requirements anywhere in it to have the corporation, for instance, have an independant assessment for its Capital requirements. None.

When they como in they wi.l1 haVE! to assi'::'SS it on, whatever presental:.ion they give and the knowledge and the experience of the person who is going against thE! applicati.on. So there should be something in .there to cover the capital rE!quirE•rn«: :~nts of the Corporation. I th ink personally there should be something in there to cover that, to give an independent assessment.

They can come in with all of the rE!quests thE!Y J.:i.ke and as big as you like until solnc':!Onr~ there - I know the commissioner has certain control. but ther'c?. is nothing there requiring an independr:>.nt assessment. rhey may be ablE! to request it. I do no L know. But tak' :' a strong and Ftrrn stand and say whc::,thE!r you nE•ecl :it~ or do not need it. And the othE!r thing is to lnE•quii"E! the Board to have public hearings. MR. SPEAKER (l. Snow> : Order, please! It is 4:00 o'clock afternoon and I want No. ~:;4 . on Thursday to interrupt I~ 3 ')

the hon. Member to announce the questions for the Late Show. Question number one, is for the han. the Minister of Employment and Labour, re the unemployment figurE!S and thE! unemployment programs. It is from the han. the Member for Harbour Main (Mr Doyle) . Question number two, is to the Minister of Energy regarding the electrical rates and it is from the han. the Member for Green Bay (Mr. HelJ..Jlett). Question number three, is to the han. the Minister of Fisheries concerning the reasons why FPI has not made an announcement regarding fish plant closurE!S, and it is from the han. the Member for Grand Bank (Min.

Matthews). MR. SPEAKER: Th.E! - han. the Member for Humber Valley. MR. WOODFORD: ~-Speaker, the other concern that I had was the requirement of the board to ~1ave · public hearings . There is nothing in the Act that forces the board to have public hearings, so the only thing they can do then is to have the intervener, or the commissioners, look at the request. I think there should be something there. There is certainly nothing written into it. Then' may be, in some of the recommendations, that I suppose could be by order of the LiE!Utenant Governor in Council, do just that.

That can be done as we11, I understand that. I understand theine arE!, I think, three or four members of the board. There is also, in

Section 6, subsection 9, something I believe, about the age of the commissioners, once they reach the age of 70 they are finished, so one thing we have to lJ..Jatch there is continuity, and if we wipe out L36 December 14, 1989 Vol XLI the board that is there notAl with rE!gards to somE! of thE! E•XpE•riE!nCE! of those people, there should certain1y be at least three or four members left there to have, what we call, continuity, on such an important issue to the consume!rs of the Province.

SomE! with experience, or whE!n they appoint for three years for onE!, four for the other, or tt..uo, four, or sorTJE!thing, so there tAdl1 always be continuity. They can be appointE!d for seven years, that: is the maximum, so that can a1ways be?. cut down to th1nee, four, o1n what have you. AN HON. MEMBER : The _y-- ·--·--ar·e·-- eligib1E• fOI'' reappointment. MR. WOODFORD: Tha~ is right. Even after the seven they are eligible for re-appointment. That is a point that can be taken.

Section 6, subsection (7), each fuil time commissioner shall hoJd office during good behaviour. Good behaviour, it goes on to tE!1l you what that is, as long as they kE!ep in line with what is going on, and not have any conflict, or what have you.

Section 120: the commissioners of l:he Board of Public Utilities appointed prior to the corning into force::' oF this Act shall cease to hold office upon coming into force of this Act. So, that is covered, Government under this Act can do atAJay with thE! exisU.ng boar"d, but. like I said, subsection 2, nothing in this

section shall prevent a person's re-appointment by the LieutE·nant--Governor in Counci1, so that leaves an opening thc:.=!rE! For Cabinet, in its wisdom, to reappoint some::' membE•rs of l:.he board in whatever capacity they might decide, whethc:'r it is one of the permanent Full-time members or No . 54 R36

a part-time member. One of the other sections, I do not know what it comes under here now, is a submission of a budget. I do not know exactly what clause that is but that is one of the new ones. I think there are only four or five and that is one of the other ones. The two main clauses in the Bill, I will not be repetitious, but they are 117 and 120, as far as I am concerned, and there is also one there on pensions as we'll. The Public Utilities Board in the Province, I do not know if the public knows it or not, but it has one of the most generous pension plans in the Province today.

They do not contribute to their pension fund and after five years service they are eligible, I think, for 25 per cent of their salary, and after ten years service they are eligible for SO per cent without any contributJ.ng factor. That is something that could probably be addressed and that is a very generous pension fund. That is something I would say they will be looking at as thE!Y go aJ.ong and t.uhen they introduce their budget. So, Mr.

Speaker, without anything further I wouJ.d just like to reiterate the fact that there was no public involvement before the recommendations were made, but at the same time if Government still has a chance, after the legislation is pasSE!d, to make l:hat Board workable and to make it one of the most representative Boards in the Province when it comes to the consumE!rS, which is the basic principle of having a consumer advocate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South. L37 December 14, 1989 Vol XLI MR. GOVER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As Chairman of the Committee which considerE!d this B:i .J.l this morning, I would just like to make a Few brief rE!rnark s with respect t:o the bill. I consider Bill No. 44 to be a progressive_and liberal piece of legislation which in the long run wiJ.l stand to benefit the consumers of the Province of NewfoundJ.and. And I can concur in many of the cornrnents rnade by my colleague for Humber ValJ.ey (Mr. Woodford).

As he indicated the previous Administration in its wisdom did recognize that there was a problem tAdth thE! amount of consumer ~epresentation which was taking place before the Public Utilities Board and they sought: a particular vehicle to cure that particular problem. As events turn out . it SE!r:Hns t.hat that particular vehicle is not entirely appropriate. In fact, I suppose one could say that the more the consumer representative on the Board the rnorE!

E!ffE!CtiVE!l.y he performed his function as a consumer representative, the more outspoken and the more vocal he was, the moJ~e l'.i.kely t.hat representative For l:hat. Bo<.'lrd lAJi .ll be challenged by the utilities. Because the more outspoken l:he representative was the Jess he would appear to be neutral and unbiased in the weighing of the evidence and the sub1nissions lAJhich carne before the Board . But having sa:id that. Uw previous Administration did recognize thE!re was a problem there.

And this Administration through this particular bill has proposed another mechanism to solve that particular problem which is the appointment pursuan L to SE!C L'ion 117 of a Consumer Advocate. In No. 54 R37

order to make that particular office work, as my colleague from Humber Valley (Mr. Woodford) has indicated, it behooves the Government to provide that advocate with sufficient staff and support and access to expertise to counter the staff and support and expertise of the utiJ.ities, since the hearings taking place before thE! Public Utilities Board are adversarial in nature. It is only fair that both utili U.es and the consumers of this Province be placed on a J.evel playing field.

And that can only happen if the consumer advocate is given sufficient assess to sufficient resources to at least approximate the resources that the utilities have at their particular disposal. Also while it is not ' rE!ally identifiable in this piece of legislation, certainly the report which gave rise to Bill No. 44 recommends that the staff of the Public Utilities Board be increaSE!d and diversified to give the Board greater independence from the information provided to it by the utilities, to more independently assess the information provided by the utilities.

One of the greatest problems and difficulties for consumers, o1n any other intE!rE!Sted parties who wish to appear before these hearings, whatever their interests are that they represent, when they have to confront the utility the greatest problem they have is that thE! utility has alJ. the facts, figures, graphs and charts and experU .se at thed1n disposal.

The information is of such a complex nature that an individual or indeed almost any organization cannot, unless it has access to a substantial amount of financial resources, adequately assess the information the utility is laying before the Public L38 December 14, 1989 Vol XLI Utilities Board. So as a result of that, in order to create a level playing field for the consumers of thE! Province and the utilities, thE! oFfice create!d under

Section 11.7 has to be given sufficient funds to discharge that particulaln lnoJ.E!. Again the sfaff of the Public UtilitiE!S Board; its inc1neas10:~ wi.J.J. allow it to more independently assess the info1nrnation and not bE! totally captive of the information the utilities put before the Board. So wt th those few brief re•rnar k s I would like to support this particuJ.ar bilJ. and say that., in rny opinion, from a revoiew of it, it does appear to be a progressive piece of legislation.

It does appc::•ar to provide a rnecharlisrn whereby consurnE!rs of Lhe Provine';! will have an effective voice before the Board subj eel:: to, as rny colleague for Humber VaJ.ley (Mr. Woodford) has indicated, sufficient resources being placed at the disposal of the consumer advocate whoever that person is . Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK .ER: lhe han. the LE•ade!r' oF the Opposition . MR . RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I wish we could be what the GovernrnE!nt certain of agenda is particular tirnE!.

The took his in introduc:i.ng thts bill at this particular han. gent.J.ernan tAJho just seat is correct, Mr . SpE!aker, Administration the previous set up an int·:ernal committee to look at the No. 54 IB8

'. functioning of the Public Utilities Board and to make certain recommendations. Now the House will recall, Mr. Speaker, that the new Government, even though that report was completed. I believe in January of 1989, the report itself was not d~~alt tJ.Jith by the past Administration. The present Premier tabled that report in this House, if I recall correctly, Mr. Speaker. in June.

In tabling thE! report of the Committee with the recommendations and the background material in it, the Premier made the follotJ.Jing statement, that the Government was tabling the report now, now being June, so that the public of Newfoundland and Labrador would have an opportunity to review the report, to have public debate on the report, and to have public input into the new documE!nt, into the ne~ bill. Now that was the statement that the Premier made in this Legislature, Mr . Speaker, when he tabled the report in J~ne. Now what has transpired since then. M1~. Speaker?

There has not been any vehicle for public input into this new act. None whatsoever. The only vehicle that would be able to do just that, would be able to carry out the commitment made by the Premier to this House, is the Committee, the Legislative Review Committee head1;!d up by the han. Member for Bonavista South (Mr. Gover). That. Review Committee, as I understand it, Mr . Speaker, did not receive this bill until just a day or two or three ago. It certainly did not receive the bill very long ago, certainly tJ.Jit.hin thE! last few days. This House itself, Mr.

Speaker. did not receiVE! the biJ.l until a couple of days ago. So I what 1_39 am worried personally about the Government agenda is. December 14, 1989 Vol XLI Why the Government is in such a rush to have this neLIJ btll passed this present session, to cal~ry out:. the amendments to the Jaw respecting the Public Utility. I have a sneaking feeling, Mr. Speaker. that thE!re is anothE!r agenda. rhe Government has not carried out the Premier's cornrnitment. The Premier's comrni tmE!nt when he tab1ed the Committee - AN HON. MEMBER : How do you know that it was not? MR.

RIDEOUT: Because I know it has the han. 9E!nt1ernan gone Mr. Speaker? not. Has to slE>ep, First o-F all go over in your s,:,at if you tJ.Jant to tit tat back and forth with me and do it propr:.~rly. even that is unpar1iarnN1tary, but at least you will be doing it half properly. But the han. gentleman was in the House I assume, Mr. Speaker, in JUnE! · ... in June the han. gentl~::~man tJ.Jas in l:he House, M1~.

Speaker. whE!n his Leader. the Premier. tabled the report of the McDonald Committee that reviewed the present PubJ.ic Ut.tlihes Act, and in tabJ.ing the report the Premier said that he IAJas tabJ.ing it now - that noiAJ bEd ng June .. ,. so t.hat there would be adequatE! l:trne for public consultation and pubJ.:i.c input into the new Bill. Now that was what the Premier said and if the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Efford) does not believe TnE!, hE! can go back to JunE! a n d f i n d H a n s a r d a n d h e tAli ll F i n d out that is tAJhat the PrE·rrdet" said. The point I am rna king. Mr.

Speaker, is that there has not been any effort: by the GovernrnE!nt to have public input. DR. KITCHEN : No. S4 1n9

Nobody was interested . MR. RIDEOUT: How does the Minister of Finance (Dr. Kitchen) know nobody is interested? Mr . Speaker, the Legislative Review Committee did not put ads in the newspap,~r throughout the Province saying they were going to have some public hearings on this important piece of legislation. How can the Minister of Finance over there slough it off and heave to in his seat and lie up against the wall and say the public is not interested? The Minister does not know that, Mr. Speaker. The Government does not know that. And that is the point I am trying to make to the Government .

Why is the Government today so interested in having this Bill pass so quic~ly? The Act that is there now is important. Of course it is important, everything is important, but does it mean anything when the Premier, the Leader of the Government, says there ought to be public input? That is the point I am making, Mr. Speaker, is what we hear in circles around this city a fact, that this Bill is actually the 'get rid of Andy Wells' Bill. Is that actually why the Government wants this particular Bill passed over the next dc-Jy or two, or in the next week, before this session winds up for Christmas?

Is the Government not prepared to do through the front door what it wants to do, but IAJants to go through the back dootn through Clause 120, by re-doing the tAJhole law relating to the Public Utilities Board? Of course, they have a sunset clause in 120 which says that all of the present Commissioners' terms of office will be over tAJhen this Bi.ll becomes law. Is that the l_fj.Q December 14, 1989 Vol XLI Government agenda? If it i.s, Mt n. Speaker, the GovernrnE!nt should at least be honest and forthright enough to say it is.

The Government should be honest and forthright enough to admit what it is th.:1y want to do, and they have not done that yet, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Wells - I am not talking about the Premier - Mr. Wells the Commissioner, Mr. Speaker, has made a fantastic contribution to consumer awareness and consumer protection in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER : Is he a relative? MR. RIDEOUi: No, he is certainly not a r'E!lati .ue of mine. I would not !Alan l: to burden him with the suggestion that he is a relative of the Pre!lnier' s ei thE!ln, Mr. Spt::1aker·. But, Mr.

Speaker, that person has made a fantastic contribution to consumer awareness and consumer protection in this Province and, by passing this Bill, the Government will ensure that that Commissi