Volume XLI Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 52 11 June 1990

U N E D I T E D R 0 U G H c 0 p y The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker (Lush): Order, please! Statements by Ministers Mr. Speaker: The han. the PrE:~mir::~r . Some Han. Members : Hear, hear! Premier We1ls: Mr. Speaker, as this rna ttetn now stands thE:~ existing resolution provides for a referendum if the Meech Lake Accord is to be passed as is. However, Mr. Speaker, through no fault of our own, we have been placed in a position where the time necessary to conduct such a referendum on a proper basis has been taken from us.

For the past six months I have repeatedly called for a First Minister·s 1 Conference to deal with concerns express1 ~d by Canadians from coast to coast about the Meech Lake Accord. It. is an issue of voi.l: .al importance to our future and to the future of Canada. At the 11th hour. Mr. Speaker. the Prime Minister called the First Ministers together for a dinner meeting u.Jith some suqqestion that: it may evolve into a First MinistE!rs 1 Confer.ence. There lAJas, however, no assurance that such a conference would take place. Well, Min.

SpeakE!ln, I think I can honestly say I havE:~ attended t:.ho longes ·t private dinnor l'nl':~eting in his tory . Sev1 ~n days later the formal meoting of the First Ministers tAJi::lS both opened and closed wtthin a couple of houtns. Everything else took place in the L1. June 11, 1990 Vo1 XLI secrecy of that private meeting . Those seVE:'rl days took us to June 10, just thirteen di:lYS aw:l.y fr·orn the deadline for ratifying the Meech Lake Accord. This app1noach, Mr. Speaker, has effectively ruled out any possibiJ.ity of conclucUng a referendum in Newfoundland and Labradotn before thE! June 23Jncl deadline.

I have asked that thE· deadline be ex tended to accommodate the referendum. fhis would only Jnequ~i.r-e a1] of th1::• prov'inc:ial lE~gislat .tu·es to pass a simple Jneso1ution to that E!FFE!Ct. I have been adv:ised that cert .a:in provincial Legis1atures have indicated an urHAI"i.llingnE!SS t.·.o takE• such action thereby insisting on the June 23rd dead1ine. It is unfortunate indeed, Mr.

Speaker, that certain other provincial Legis1at.utnes haVE:' l"efusecl to givE• any consideration l:.o l:hE• pE~oplE! of NE~wfoundJ.and and Labt"aclot" u.Jho iH'E! in a position, throu9h no fault ~ of their own. u.1here they cannot notAl have the referendum that was provided for in March. Mt". Speake1n, this Goventment and the enhre Liberal Caucus in thi· ~ House wi11 put Canada fit"S L. 1 ant today, Mr.

SpE:~ab:!ln. announci .ng that a ftneE~ votE:! on the acceptabiJ.ity of the Meech Lake Accord wi11 take plac e :in this House of Asse111bly u.lith Lh1::. uncll'~t"stancling that : a]1 MernbE:!r 's oF thE:~ House tAii11 take tAJhal~evE!I" stc:•ps at"e rwcessat".Y to consult tAd.t.h the:ir const~ituents :in ensur·tng thP maximum possible J.eveJ. of pubJ.ic participation :in this circumstance. M r . S p E:~ a 1<1:;, r .

Go v 1:~ r· r11 n E! n t tAd 11 pr·ovide For t"easonable expE:·nSE!S which u.d.ll have to be incurred by MHAs in this proc~:!SS, the obj~:·ct.ive bEdng to ensur·e t:.he people of t.his Pr·ovincE:' have sorne say in the:ir Future and in the No . 1)2 (Af Lc:!i"noon) R:l.

Future of their country. Mr. Speaker, given the circumstances in which we find ourselves, having been denied the right of a referendum, I am confident that the people of Newfoundland and l.abrador will undc:H·stand that the free vote option we are exercising is the next best possible option available to us. This, however·, is not an acceptable substitute for a proper referendum.

I encoul~age each and eve1~y pe~rson in Newfoundland and Labrador to make their views known to their Mt:~rnbel"S and to participate in public discussions on this issue so that when the vote is taken it will, without a doubt, reflect the decision of the people of our Province. I am confident, Mr. Speaker, that the Members of this hon. House, and indeed all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, will express their views on the basis of their own sincere convictions and with the futu1"e of Canada Foremost in their minds and in their hearts. Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr.

Speaker: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Some Hon. Members: l·h"al", heal"! Mr. Rideou·t::: Thank you, Mr. S p-ea k e r-:--- Fir s t of a 11 , 1 e t me thank the Prc:~rnir,•r For somE" advance notice of his stat:PlTH:•nt today and F o r t h e o p p o r t u n i t y t o me E~ t. tAli t h him for sorrH,~ short pE~riod of tirne a little while ago to have a discussion about the contents of his statemE~nt, IAJ~rich he:• just read to the House. In a brief response. Mr.

Speaker, 1Ed: me:~ say L2 June 11, 1990 Vol XLl l:.hat Membei"S of l:his Hou~:;e of Assembly havE~ bE~EH1 asked to rnakE~ the most important decision we have ever made in our lives and are ever· likely to bE~ ca1lt c~d upon to rnake again in the foresE!eablE• Fu l:ure. The issue before the House of Assembly transcends the specific details of the ME•c:•ch Lako Accord itself.

We have, in a vei"Y I"E~a] sense, been asked to rnak:::• a decision which will affect the lives and thE~ future, not jus l: of NetAJfoundlandei"S and Labr·aclorians but of Canadians, in evei"Y city, in every town and every ui]lage and every region of Canada. rhe PremiE~r has said that thE•rE~ will be a freE! vote for thE~ Members of his caucus, Mr. Speaker, I, too, extE~nd U1e san1E~ right to the Members of our caucus. S ~ r_n_e_ H o J'!_: _.li~ .l!l-~ e r.~ : Hear·, hear! Mr. Rideout: Thi~; vote, Mr·.

Sp -eak c::~ r , trans c E' n d s 1 o y a 1 t y l".: o L he leaders of the political parties represen ted in the House of Assemb1y. It: transcends persona] loyalties and il transcends personal friendships. What each and every one of us has been asked to do, is, to make a cl1::•cis :ion, a decision about l:he ful:urE:~ oF our· country. So1r1e ME~rnbE~rs of l:.he Hous1.:~ oF Assc:~rnbly may find thernse1ues :in a rnost difficu1t: situat.ion. Ot :h~:·rs Mernbers may have lE ~ss cli'fficu1l:y, bul: all MernbE•rs IAJi .ll haUL'! to st1"uggle IAri.t.h a numbel" of : th:ings.

The y IAI i 11 h a v e l".: o s t r u q i:J .l o t~ri. t h the perceptions that they presently hold on l:he Mec.:.ch Lake Accord it.se1f. Thc,•y wi .1J. have to struggle with the signiFicance the i I" cl e cis ion IAJ:i. .U car· I" y f o I" people Fr·orn coast: t.o coast · in No. 52 (AFLE•I"noon) 1~2

Canada. And they will have to struggle with their own conscience. All of these issues must be conside1ned because this is a decision Like no other decision we have taken in NeuJfoundland and Labrador perhaps since 19~9. The decision that tAlE! make hr::~re in this House of Assembly will affect the fu tutne of Canada. Perhaps t:he ve1ny survival of Canc:tda as a Nation as we know it. And it will affect very dramatically the future of Newfoundland and LabJ"aclor. Mr. Sp~~aker, it:. is no secret that. tAJhE:HI lAJe tAJer'(o~ in Government we as a Party supported the Meech Lake Accord.

We believed with honesty and integrity that thE! Meech LakE! Accord IAJas good fotn the people of Canada and fot" the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. And, Mr. Speaker, as a Pal"t.y tn Oppo s i ti.on uJe continUE! to sup port the Meech Lake Accord for the very sarne lnE:'asons, bE:~ caUSE' lAJe be1ieve the Accord ts good For the people of Canada and for the people of our Province. All oF us though, on bol:h sides of the House, come to this issue having previously rnadE:' a decision with respect to it.

Notl.~o.Ji. thst.anding this we a1ne today faced with a difficult decision based on different circumstances, and tAlE! have each been aske.d to exercise our independent judgment in the cont.~:!xt of thE! Constitutional Agreement reached on Su nclay past should now be ratified. For myself I continue to suppot"t the Me~~ch LakE• Accord, particularly :in the context of the agl"eernent that IAJas l"eachE:'d on Sunday. I continue "in my I"C::~solvE• that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians hav~~ nothing to lose fi"Om the Meech Lake Acco1nd, but have much to gain.

L3 JUnE' 11, 199() Uol XLI There has been a lot of talk about public opinion throughout this Meech Lake debate. However, as Members elected to exercise our independent judgment we cannot and must not be guided by the given poll tells us at a giv~:!n point in time. Well it would b~~ uwong not to consider the views expressed in such a medium. WE:~ in this country and this Prov:incl:! are elE!CLC!cl to rE!ploesent the peoplE• unclr::•tn Bl"it:.ish Parliamentary dernoctnacy.

Thai- is the sole reason that you and I are hE!I"e today, and tAlC! have I:H:!en chargE:~cl with t.he rE:'sponsibilil:.y of exercising our independent j Llclgrnr:~nt fo1n each of us. And l:IH' ultimate answer and the ul~imate judgment on thctt IAI-.i.l . .l b~:! rnacl~:! by our electors in our individual consti ·tuenci.es. And this is our particular lnE:~sponsibi.lity IAJhen consti.tul:. ·ional matters are raised. The Constitution Act of 1.982, dldl"ges legislators in all Provinc-.i.al Legislatur·es and thr:' Par1iarnE!nt of Canada with thE• l"esponsibiJ .it:.y to amend our Constitution.

Because I am r·esponding to <:t Minis tel"ia1 Statement, Mr. SpeakE•r, notAl is not the time to addt"ess the speci f ic issues raised in and around lhe Meech Lake dE:'bate. I along tJ..rith a11 thE! ot:hE!I" M!O'ITibers of l:his House wil1 have the opportunity to express our views on l:.he Accord and on the cornn1unique i.ssu~~cl by l:he First Minis l:.er·s t:.his pds l.: lAJ e Edu~ n d , a n d tAle uri ll e x p I" e s s l.. h o s e vietAJs over Uw next. coup}('! of weeks as we pursue a resolution of l:.he constitutional situal:.ion we presently find ourselves in. Ml".

SpE:'akel", ME~rnber·s on both siciE:'S of this House hold s tr·ong, horll'!S t vietAIS on both sid~:!S of the Mr:~ech Lake isstH':!. I weJco1ne l:hE• Prem:i.eln 1 s clec:is"ion l:o haVC! a floee vote by Me~Jnb~~r·s of t.h"is No. 52 (Aftel"noon) ~~ 3

Legislature and, as I told him in private today, tAlE! will, as an Official Opposition, co-operate with him and the Government in every tJJay to <H1sure l:hat the people of Newfoundland and Labrador at"~' as involved in that p1nocess as they can be, and that Members of this House make the final ultimate judg~~rnt::'nt, ultimatE! decision, as we must, in time for ratification by June 23rd. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. thr:~ Prern:ic.;!r . PlnE:~mier Wells: Min.

Spr:~aker, prior to opE:~n:ing, in discussion lAJith the han. the Opposition Leacle1n, hr:~ indicated that if there were anything in his speech that I felt it. tAJas necessary for· me to respond to, they would agreE! to rny doing so . There is only one comment that it is necessary for rne to make and that is in response to his comment about the responsibility of Members of the House in l:he Blnitish pa1nliarnenta1ny systetn to rnakE! th(' decision without relying on polls and so on. I agree with him entirely tAli t. h onE! qua 1 iF i cation .

WE:' , as legislators, are electc~d and g:iven not only the right to exercise legislative potAJer, but, IAJith that right goes the responsibility to take the polit.ical consequence oF exercising the legislat{be power without running to get political approval or political support through poLls or' any o thE!r' means. We haVE!, no l:: only thE:! right to exercise the power, we have l::he responsibil i.ty to do so.

And everytiYinrJ tAle do in our ordinary legislative work, we are answerable ultimately to the public, so if we rnake a mess of it, iF the GoverniTH:~nl:. rnakes a ITIE!SS of it, IAJhen it. ~~oes back to the elect.orat-.e l:he nexl: time ar-ound, L4 · JunP 11, 1990 Vol XU the electorate can reject that Go v e r n rn e n t , i n s t a 11 a n e tAl rna j o r' :i t y in the House and have legisJ.al ~:ion put tlwough that tAlil1 rep<;!al Lhat which tJJas unacceptab1e. That- is the proper way to do it. In constttutiona1 tei"ITIS, it: :i.s totally different. What we are doing herE!, Ml".

Speakeln, is g:iv:in~J legislative approval that will bind us for decades and perhaps centuries, and the fifty-two peopJe in this legislatur-e, in rny juclgemE!Ilt, ought not to be dojnq that in the ordinary course of events without an acceptable level of public approval. That is why I suggest that a rE!FE:'r'E•ncluln is t:he rnost appropriate. However, in this circumstance, For' l:ht:~ rE!asons I have explained, we have been foreclosed of that opportunil::y . I welcome the comrnr':!nts oF th(• Leader of the Opposition ancl thank hirn For his rec;~.dy participat-ion in it and assure all Members, Mr.

S p E:~ a k e r , t: hat t-: he Go v E:~ r n rn en t lkl i 11 do eve1nything possi.ble t.o faci.lit~te the consultation with the pub1i.c. And lAJ~1i1e I arn on my fE!I::•l: 1 rnighl add one more thing. I spokE! just a fE•w mornE!nts ago with the Pr:irne Ministeln to adviSE! lllln or t:h''' ciE!Cision that tAle had taken ancl :r: rnust express my appreciation to thE!

Pl"il'riE' MinistE•I" fol" hi'> assur-ancE:' that. t:he Covel"r1111UnL o·f Canada lAJou1cl ass:ist us :i.n any lAJC.,<Y that they possibly can in the conduct of this public consultation by out' Me111ber's to Facilitate it, and I expruss applneciation to hirn For' thal: . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Heal", hE=·al"! Min· ... Speaker:_: agtneed that lAJE:~ Mernbers previousJy tJJouJ.d r'eces s fot' a No. S2 (Aftel"l'lOOn) r~ 'I

couple of minutes while the cameras were making their exit, because the camE!ras t;,Jelne only permitted to do this particular item - the PrE:~mier and the LeadE:H' of the Opposition. So, we could probably recess for about three minutes . The Speaker, will leave the Chair for about three minutes. Recess Mr. Speaker: Order, please! When we recessed we tAJelne on Ministerial StatemE!nts. so we will take up from there. Are there further Ministerial Statements? Before getting into Oral Questions I would like, on behalf of all han.

Members, to welcome to the galleries today a former Member of l:his House and a for·mer Minister, Min. John Butt. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Oral Questions Mr. Speaker: The hon. the L.r:~ader of the Opposition . Mr. Simms: No, Mr . Speaker . Mr. Speaker: Oh, sorry! fhe hon. the Opposition House Leade1". Min. Simms: -···· -······-··----·---~ Thank you the for· Pl"omotion. Mr. Speaker. ThE!re are othel" issues curTE!nt in the ProvincE! and tmportant to l:he people of Newfoundland and Labrador other than the Meech Lake issue, and I arn sure Members opposil:e would hav e to acknotJJledge that.

On<'! vr.:'ry irnpor·tant and L ~i June 1.1, 1990 VoJ. XLI immediate one deals with a serious situation that is developing in our health care system, and I refr~l", of course, to the:! lab and X r·ay str·ike. This particular strike is noLI.J eni::el"'ing its second week. I have a question for l:he President of Treasury Board. I want to ask the Minister if he can advise this House what initiatives he personally has taken l:.o try to get the talks back on the rails tAJith l"espt;!Ct to l:his dispu l:e.

If he has not taken any init:~iatiVE!S personally, can he tell us lAJhE!n he he intends to do sotnethin~~, because, after all, Mr. SpE!akE!I", he is the Government 1 s chief negotiator? Mr. Speaker : rhe hon. l:hE! President of Treasury Board. Ml". Baker: Thank you, Mt" . Speaker. Thr,~r·e is no doubt·. that there is a serJous situation in the Province. rhE! Lab and X l"ay WOI"kE•I"S arE! Vei"Y E!SSentia1. to l.ht'.! providing of health care i.n this Province. I should say, before going any furtht?.r, l:hat I r'E!gl~et we have gotten to the stage we have without any serious negotiation.

WE! havE• tr·it::~d to go through the collective bargaining process and that has not yet worked. rhe J.ab and X ray workers are on strike, and w;!, hopE:•fully, will get to negotiation in Lhe very nE!ar future. The last str:!p negotiation was a package we presented to the negotiators, containing changes to over Forty items, and LI.Je expect a I~E!SponSE! ~i.n the nE:~al" future. M1~. Spe<:lkel" : The hon . the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr·. Speaker, rny understanding of that particular situation is that: inc!E•E•cl the urdon No. 1)2 (Afternoon) I ,~ · \ ··'

did respond verbally t.o officials in Treasury Board, and their response tAJas l:hat l:he package and proposal put forth by Treasury Board was not acceptable. That is my understanding. We are now hearing about many othr::11~ problems which are occurring in the hospitals as a result of this part:icular strike, and I u..Jant. to ask the PrE•sident of Treasury Board, first of all, dol:1S he recognize and unciE!l~stand that thE! lab and X r·ay worker·s arl;1 indeed the very heaJ"t of lht::1 diagnostic services system within the health care system. If they do not - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) already said it. Mr.

Simms: No, the hon. President of Treasury Board said he understood they were absolutely essential. I am asking him does he understand that they are absolutely the heart of the diagnostic services system. And if he does accept that, t.hr::1n isn't it about time that the PresidE!nt of Treasury Board himself took some initiative, showed some leadership and tried to do something to put this back on the rails? Some Hon. Members: Ht:'ar. hl'-'ar! Mr. Speaker: The hon. thE~ President of Treasury Board. M1~. Baker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad the Opposition House Leader agrees with me in ter·ms of the E!S~>E~ntia1 natui~E' of the services. I would like to say to him that we do have a collective bargaining process tAJhich I believe works, and I trust to t.hr,1 collective bargaining process. I very Firmly believe that if reasonable people sit down and discuss issues. the> collective L6 June 11, 1990 Vo1 XLI bargaining process will work. I fir·rnly be1ieve that, and [do not intE•nd to bai"9L'Lin in thE:• House of Assembly with the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Speake!~: The hon. the Opposition House leader. Mr. Simms: A supplementary, Mr .

Speake!~ . Well, I understand thE· Minister not wanting to bargain in the House of Assembly. What I tAJ<lnt hirn to do is bargi'lin outs .icJ,:o the House of Assembly, with the workers who are on s tr·ike. That is what we are asking him to do. Some Han. Members: H~O!ar. h~Jar! Mr. Simms : Let mE· take a different tack altogether, then. Let me ask the Minister if he thinks the kinds of public cornrnents he maclt::~ on the fir·st clay of this dispute, by sayinq that the President of NAPE was throwing a temper tant.r·um, by sayin~~ thaL l:hr:!

PresiciE!nt of NAPE 1.1Jas on an E'go trip, by say"i.ng t·.hal: Lh'c' Pl~esident of NAPE t.~Jas l.aldn~1 his workers out simply to 111akE! thern suffer, does hE! think that 1.11:-ill help gE!t an agreernE!nt? And LhosE• k i n d s o f c o rn 1 n e n t s • a ,~ e t h c:• y t i rr1 e ·1 y and tAlil1 l:hey h1::1lp get: the l:.a lks back on the trail? M1~. ~lpeaker: The hon. the President of rreasury Board . Mr. Baker: Mr· . ~3peaker·. tAlE! haVE:' negotiated an essential seruices ag1"eernent w:i.th thE!

Jab and X l"t'IY tAJor k E!rS, lAri th NAPE. l"ha t s E:H'ie s of negotiat:i .ons. in lhE• l:.lAIO cldys. lAJere VE~ry successf :ul. I a1n VE''I~y p 1 e a s e cl the r r:~ lAJ a s g o o cltAJ i 1 '1 s h OlAJ n on both sides, and t:hat essent'ial ser·viCE!S ar·e now being pi~ovidecl by thr:1 lab and X ray tAJOrker~; and by NAPE. I am very pleased with t h a t . I tAli . 11 r e p ~~ a t t. o l: h e h o n . No. f.)2 (A f' LE'I''IlOOn) f\6

House Leader that the process that is in place I bE!li .eve wi11 wot"k. We have made a proposal. I expect a response in the very near· future, and I expect talks will get underway in the very near future. That is all I can say to the hon . gentleman . I do not believe in standing in the House and trying to inflame the situation, as the Opposition House Leader is now trying to do. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order, please! The hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Mr . Speaker.

The President of Treasury Board har·dly needs my help to inflame the situation, t~.Jith t.he comments he made publicly the first day of the strike. Let me ask him something else, then. Since he is trying to avoid answering any questions we ask, let me ask ~im this. Is this quote con·ect, when he said if talks were to get underway he Felt very optimistic thE!Y would get an agt~eement?

If those commenl:s are correct, and they are attributed to the President of Treasury Board. · then why doesn't the President of Treasury simply pick up the telephone, phone the Presiden ·t of NAPE or· call in the chief negotiator. or somE•thing. and have a talk to lrim, see if he cannot t..uork out some kind of an arrangement or way to get these talks back on the trail? Mt". Speaker: The hon. the President of Treasury Board . Mr . Baker: Mr. Speaker. there are things happening day by day and I refuse to discuss the details of L7 Jurw 1.1, 1990 Vo1 XLI theSE! things in t:he House.

There is a coll~~cti .ve bat"gain:i.ng pr·ou:!SS in place. It is recogn:i.zed by union and it is recognized by Government, and l~.hat co1lect:.ive bargaining process wi11 be used. I arn confident: l:hat whE!n t1.JE! sit down, and I hope that t..u:i11 happr::'n in the very near Future. t..ue can reach a solution that is satisfactory to everybody. Mr. Simms : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker : The han. thr::' Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: A supplernentat"Y. Mt~ . Speaker. The Ptnesident of Treasury Board is not going to get off that easy.

We undE!rstand t.hE! collective bargaining pr·ou:!SS, and so does everybody else invo1ved in it. We undetnstand the collect'iVE! bargaining process. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr . Speaker : Order. please! Mr. Simms : The collective bargaining process does not ptnevent the Pl~esidenl: of ·rl~E!i:-l.SUI"Y Board, the Province's Chief Nr::~gotiat.o1n, from tak:i.ng sorn~:! initiative and showing some leadership to try to get something to happen. rhe collective bargaining process does not prevent that From occurring. Let 1rw ask him l~.tAJO s:i.rnplE~ questions. They are pretty straighlfOJnt..uard .

I t~.d 11 evE•n IIJ,::J.kl:> them easy for the Pres:i.dent of Tr·.::~asury Board. Is thE! GovE~rnlflE!nt ptnE~pal~ed to go back to thE! t.ab] .r:=! now? Will the Minister takn an initiative, today, to bl"in~~ thE:'III back, maybe telephoning the conciliator or the President of NAPE? Will he do eil:hE'r of those No. 52 ( Af lE!I"noon) R'l

things or both of those things? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the President of Treasury Board . Mr. Baker: Mr. Speaker, I will not negotiate in public. I iAiill tell the han. Member one or two things we are not prepalned to do: we are not prepared to drag people off to jail, and we are not prepared to bring in zero and zero. Some Han. Members: HE:~ar, hear! Mr. Simms: Mr . Speaker, ne "at way-of trying - that is a Mr. Speake1n: Order, please! It . is just that I have not recognized the hon. Opposition House Leader yet for the benefit of Hansard. Now we have done so. Min. Simms: Thank you, Mr .

Speaker. rhat is a neat i..vay of trying to avoid answering good questions and facing up to h:i.s own lnesponsibility. I would remind him, or ask him if he is aware that thE! last tirnE! the lab and X ray group went to the table to ba,rgain they got a collective agreE!InE' nt with the Aclmi ni s tra tion, when I was Pi"esiclent of Treasury Board. Some Hon. Members: ···-··-······--·--···· -·-··· ··-----· -···-···· ··-··-.··-· ···············- Hear, hear! Mr. Simms: So don 1 l: l:ry Lo play gamE'S. Ansl.I.Jer the quE:'S tions directly. Are you prE!par"='d to take an initiative?

Are you prepared Lo go back l:o the table? ArE:~ you pi"epar·ed to do somc:d:.hing Lo get these talks back on the trail again? That is the question. Min. Speaker: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. Mr. BakE•r: I will respond once L8 Jurw 1.1, 1990 Vol XLI again, Mr. Speaker. This Government has been taking initiatives tn l:his sil:.uation. As expJ.ained eai"lier, this Govei"nJTII'::~nt will take initiatives; this GoveJ~nment will continuE• to do what is best to do; this Government will continue to follow through with the collective bargaining process. Some Hon . Members: HE!ar, hf!ar! Mr.

Baker:~ Our gJ "E~a t r··eqJ·'E :! 1'". is that the situation lnE!i":1checl the strike stage withouL there being any negotiations on the package . Mr. Simms : A suppl~::~JrJE!ntary, M1~ . Speaker. Mr . Speaker: The han . the - Premier Wells: A point of oJ~clr:~r. Mr. Speaker. Would U11:! hon. Member just - it will. not cl:irnin:i.sh Question Period. There is a lit.t.le bit of a problE!HI IAJhich has arisen. .M.r .. .:.. .... --......... §..e.~E.t.t:!.x: : Premier, with The hon . the agreement of l:he thE:!

Premier Wells: A li l:.l:lE! bi .l: of a problem ha s arisen, and we can ext~:.~nd Quest .io n Pt:'riod by Ult:! Fc:•w minutes I will take. ·rhere are one or t1..vo bus load s ol' .. sl:.udonts from Bel1v:i .1 le D:i.strict. M1~. Speaker: BE!JJ.evur:~ . Premier Wells : Be11evue Dist .r:i.ct, and thE!re may be some rrtnity Bay de Verde District, too, who are clown there t..vaiting in d bus. They have driven alJ the way to have their turn to sit in the House of Assembly, and thE:!y cannot get in bE:'cause l:he ga11er'ies are fu11. No. ~-)2 (AfleJ"noon) 1\8

Some Han. Members : Oh, oh! Premier Wells : Just hold a minute! All I am asking is if the people who are in the gallery behind me would be so kind as to let the students sit in for a moment, and then they can come back in. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Premier Wells: I will extend Question Period. I have no quarrel with extending Question Period. An Han. Member: They are here to hear this debate. Premier Wells: Well, they can hear the debatE• if they want to. But there is a group of students . Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Premier Wells: not agree. Mr. Speakel": Order. please! The han. l:he Leader.

Okay, they lAlill Ordel". please! Opposition House Mr. Simms: Mr. Speaker, to the point of Ol"der the Prerniet" t"aises on the understanding that an add:i.ti .onal coupJ.e of minutes wi1J be added to Question Period, I mec.ln, that situation occuJ"S qui ·te frequently. If the galleries are fuLL. then more powet" to thE! people tAJho are in th~~ galleries. We have no objecU.on to students being in the galleries, but the Question Period will be over in fiftec~n or SE!Venteen minutes. fhe people who are in the galleries are particularly interested in certain topics that:. arE:~ going t:o be r·aisr,,d.

L9 June 1.1, J.<)')O Vol XU I am sure after Question Period is over - they at"e qu:'Lte r'E•asonab1E• people - they will be quite pt"epared to let otl'lE:'I" ~1l"oups cornu in. But I do not think it is appropriate or right to ask during the middle of Question Per"iod that it occur. Mr. Speaker: consent. Okay. I think it tAlc:1S TherE! is no the Opposition House Lead~~r tAJho quesU.on at t.hr:! stood. stood on another time the Premier The Opposition House Leader . Mt". Simms: Yes. Mt" . SpE!ab:!l". onE! final supplemE:~ntary from me to thE! Ptnestden t of Tt"eastH'Y BocH'd.

Can I ask the President of Truasury Board this: HE:~ talks about a J.ot of things happ~;!noing i.n the background, things atne rnov:i.ng and everythtng, which is his siclo oF the story. I hea1n LhE! ot.hE:'l'' sick• of the stot"y, tAJh".i.ch indtcal:.es L.ha"L: it is not accurate, but. so be that. Can I ask him thts question spE:~cifica11y? If so much :is I:J~:•.ing d o n ~~ i n l: hi s l a b a n cl X r' a y dispute, and so rnany Lh:i.ngs cH'e happening behind the scenes, has Government rnade a salary offer? Mr. Speaker : rhe han. the President of Treasury Board . Ml" .. Bakel" : Thank you. Mr' .

Speaker. rhe collective bal"gaining pt"ocess is such that and the hon. Mernbet" knotAIS Lhis and he has been tht"ough :i.t many t.:intes l:here are pE•r'h<:~ps a couple hundred :items thal:. you dr::•al lAJ:ith and so on, and as you go Lht"ouqh the pt"ocess, you gE!t to l:he final stage, which is salary. NotAl this is barga:i.n:i .ng t:he normal process. We No. l'i2 ( Aft.E!r·noon) co] lee l:.ive hav<;! not:., 1~9

so far, dam' the normal collective bargaining process. I have indicated that there really has been no collective bargaining except on the essential services agreement, which was concluded quite successfully, to the satisfaction of both sides. I tAJill say to the hon. Member that the process is in place, the process will happen. There are items on the table which involved money; it has involved expenditures of public money. They will all bE! dealt with. The salary issue will be dealt with as long as the collr:,ctive bargaining pr·ocess starts to work, and I believe it will shortly. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main . Mr. Doyle: I have a question for the Government House Leader, as well, Mr. Speaker. In the whole process of attempting to nE!gotiate an agre10:~ment with the lab and X J"ay, we are tol.d that Gove:~rnrnE!nt has shown bad faith by engaging in contract striping. Governrnr:!nt placed on the table issues which the union had already reached agreement on in previous contracts, issues like maternity leave, seniol"ity, a reduction in Workers' Compensal:ion benefits and also sick leave. Would the Governrnr:!nt House Loader conf'ir'lll if that is indeed the case?

And isn'l: hE! rnaking it Vf:'ry difficult for the urdon to cornE:' back to the bargaining table in view of that? ['llr ,_~--- --~ -.?._k.~r : rhe hon. the President of Treasury Board. Mr . Baker: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I would like to point out to the hon. M~:!mber fol" Hal"bour Main that aL the start of a bargain:l.ng pi"ocess JJ.Jhat happ!O:'ns is I 10 June 11, 1990 Vo 1 XLI there is an E!ITiployer negoU .a t.-i .ng team and an employee negotiating team. Each pr·epares a package of itr:~ms they tAJant discus SE !d each pr·epares a package of i terns.

ThE!Y get together, they sit doJJ.Jn and the packages are presented. An Hon. Member: Come off it. Mr. Baker : Because of the question, I felt I had to tell h'im that, because, obviously, he doesn't understand the process. Mr. Simms : (Inaudible) you understand the process? Ml". Doyle : questions . (Inaud:i.ble) <HlSIAIC:'I" the Mr. Speaker : Ord~~r, please! Mr . Baker: In the Govet'niTIE!nl:: package there are certain items, and in the employE!!::' packagE:! !~here are co:~rtain items. In both thoSE! packages these are init.-ial positions.

Thc:Hl the colJ.ect:i .uE! bargaining process works and you discuss it and you come to an agre10:Hnent sornetJ.JhE!I"e in be t.tJ.Jeen. The original pos'ition brought in by the union n(~gotiators, I arn not going around saying that's their final position. Because iF in fact it is, thr:!re is no co11ect:iVE! bargain:ing. I tJ.Jould ask l:hE! hon. Gentleman to appl"eciat:.E• that:. fac 1':, a n d l: h e c h a n g '"' s , t h E:' p a c k a g e tAri . 1:~1 IAJh:ich we cal'rlr:! in tAJas an .i.n:'i.toi.c.'l1 posit.'ion. rhts is I'IOY'IIkl.l I dncl thE!n you ne~Jottatr'! fJ"OIJI that potnt. [t is not a Final position.

No final posttions haVE! been statr~d, because lAJE· havE:! not gone through the collective bargaining procE~ss. To an~>IAJer thE! question no, therE· has not bE:·r:~n any contract stripping. Mr. Speaker: The han. LhE! MelflbeJ" for Harbour Main . No . 52 (Afternoon) I~ 10

- Mr. DoyJ.e: A suppleml'::'ntary, Mln . Spc::~akl'::~r. LEd.: ITII'::' say to the:~ PrE!Siclent of Treasury Boc:.-und if there hasn't been any contract stripping, somebody is lying! Somebody is lying! An Hon. Member: That is right. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Doyle: I IJJou1d ask him if this is any way to negotiate in good faith.

H~sn' t Government actua11y forced the lab and X ray people onto the s t1neet ··- again I will ask him - onto the street by attempting to _strip previously hard-fought-for gains which they had, and u..lill he ·.immediately, today, show right here in the HouSE! of Assembly today, to the pl'::wple who are gathered, that he is going to negotiate in good fa·:ith and n~rnoVE! these issues IJJh.i.ch are only ser·ving to inflame an already sensitive issue? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the President of Treasury Board . Mr. Baker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

Once the initial packages aJnE! prc::~sented, no one party can then remove all its positions fr·om the table - no one party can remove all its positions fl"Oill the table. That. is not collective bargaining. Mr. Sp•"!akr:~r, no, we ar·e not going to remove <.'J.l1 ou1n positions from the tab1e. We have moved on ·Forty-bJJo positions, and will continue to rnov~~ as the co1lectiv~' baJ"ga:ining process goi'::'S on. Mr. SpeakeJ" : The hon . the Mt~rnber for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyle: Minish! I" of r~elations.

A supplementary to the Employment and Labour Lll JunE! l.l, 1990 Vo1 XL.T Since the union and the Government appear to be unable to reso1ve what is essential1y a crisis in the heall:.h caJ"e sysb~JTI, u..Jould l:.hE! Labour Minister explain what her Department is doing to resolve this issue bE!fore it becomE's too inflamed? Mr. Speaker: The Minis tl'::~l" o·F ErnployiTlE!nt Relations. hon . thE• and l..abouJ" Ms CoiAJan: Ml". ~3pea k ~H', IllY DepartrnE!nt is doing IJJha t. oi t. s houlcl do , that. is s tan din (J by aiAJa i 1- oi. n q calls from either side. Mln. Speaker·: The hon. the Merni:JC::!I" for St.

John's East . Some Hon . Members: Hear, hE!ar! Ms Duff: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I t.~o.Ji . l1 d i r· ·~ c t. t: hi s q u o s t. i o n 1: o L he Min:i.ster of HeaJ.t:h. I JJJou·lcl J'ikr::! l:o knol.~o.J iF thu Minisl:.<:!Y' is at.~o.Jdi"E! that thr:! lab and X J"ay s l:J"j kr:~ is causing Vl'::~ry sr:H'ious PI"ObluJns in the hospitaJ.s across l:hE:! flJ"ov:ince and has a1ready resulLed in siqn:i.ficant. bed c]osulnE:!S, up t.o 40 per cent in some hospitals, cancellation oF out-patient services, cance11at.i.on o1 all r:~lr:~cti.ve SUI"~~ery and aJ J elect·.'i.ve a cl rn i s s i o n s , a n d .I a s k t I·H:!

M i n i s t e r i f , in fact, he has continq•':•ncy plans in p 1 acE! to E! n suI" t' an acl•=.!quate 1eve1 of pC\ t:j r:•n t. caJ"e :i.f l:he sl.:rike continues and iAJiial:. dl"E! those plans? Mr. Speaker : The hon. thE! Minister of Heall:h . Min. Decker· : Min. SpPakE'I", as I told this House SOITIE! l:".i.1ne ago, l.:he Department of Health is continually moni t:oJ"ing l.hE! situation in the hospitals. Of course ·thE>I"l" is disr·upl:.ion. When No. 52 (AftE!I"noon) R l :1.

thE!re is a tAJork interruption, there are bound to be disruptions. We atne sati.sfied that up to this tim.::1 no one's health has bGE:1n thr.::1atem1d and that the ernEH'gE!ncy services are being taken care of. I certainly thank the people who are on strike for their decency in this matter, that emE!rgencies are being taken care of. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The han. the M.::Hnber for St. John's East.

Ms Duff: I think the Minister has eve1ny rE!ason to t.hcHlk the people tAJho are on strike for their decr:'ncy in this mattE!r, but I am not entirely sure I arn as sure as he is about the risk to patient catne. It. is rny understanding, baS(:!d on fairly good information, that critical diagnostic services, including the mammography, ultrasound, CAT scan, Pap srnear and other services have been virtually brought l~.o a standstill, except for acute ernetngencies, and that this is already causing a vetny serious backlog of cases requiring these services and placing sorn(~! patients at risk.

Can the Minister conF:ir·m that :in fact this is the case? Mr. Speaker: lhe hon. l:he Minister of Health. Mr. Decketn: Mln. Speaker, thE!lnE! is bound to be a back-up of setnvicc?.s being pet"fonned, and the1t is certainly understood. To say I am absolutE!ly certain, M1n. SpE!C\kE!r, I am never· absolutc::•ly certain; even tAJhen the Jab and X ray people ar·e on t:he job, no onr:~ is absolut·ely cetnt.ain. But, as reasonabl.y as is possible, T am satisfied that L1.2 JunE:' 11, 1990 Vol.

XLI und.::1r trying c:ircurnst.ancr,,s ·-both foln thE! pE!opJ.("1 WhO at"e ptnovidinq the l::'l'nE:11ngc::!ncy setnvices and fcH' l::he manageiTlE!nt i.n the hospJt.als it ts a very trying time. I arn assurc:1d that health is not being threatened and emergencies are being takr-.:1n care of. But :i.t. :i.s log':ical to assume, Mr. SpE!akc:~r. that there will be a buJld-up which tAd.ll be fe1t in l~he sysl~.E~m foln som.::1 t'.i.ITIE:' to come:~. Mr. Speaketn: The hon. the ME:•ntbet" for St. John's East.

Ms Duff: Can the MJnister conr':irm l:hat classes For studenl~.s in l~.hc:• lab and X l"ay technoJ.o~JV pt"Oc:JI"dllls have been seriously curl::ailed because the':ir instructors are being involved in provid':ing essential services Jn a supervisory capacity in the hospit.aJ.s? · Mln. Speakeln: The hon. l':.he M':inister of Health. Mr. Decker: No, Mr. Spc:~aker, I c a n n o t c o n f i r m t h a t. . B u t 1 tAd. ] 1 cE:~rtainly havr:~ it checkE:!d out:. dncl bt"ought. back, so w:i.J.J. have to t:akr:! it under advisement. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the M'"rnber· for St. John's East.

Ms Duff: A finaJ. supplementary, Mr. Sp.::1aker. Is the Min':istE!ln dlAJai"E' that SOllie or· the new graduates who had anticipated employment. in Newfoundland after their ~~l"aduation have c:llt"eady J.c::!fl.. c:,lnd others are actively seeking ernpJ.oyrn.::'nt. outside t.he Pt"ovince becauSE! oF the strike, <:~nd that: this situation can lead to very serious pr·oblerns in thE! retent.·i.on and recruitment of !::rained pe1nsonnel in labrato1ny and X ray No. 52 ( AfteJ"noon) I~ 12

s<::~rvices? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Health. Min. Decker: Min. Speaker, that has not been brought to my al:.tention. I will take tAJhat the hon. MEnnber is saying. It could :inde<o~d be t:he case. But wE:~ are into a negotiation proc<::~ss c:tnd when l:.hat happens, that sets off" other things tAJhich happ~:!n. As Minister of Health, I am concerned that health is not endangered; I am concerned that emergencies are being taken care off. And to the best of the ability of the Department and the people involVE!d in the system, and wi.th the co-operation of the essential workers, Mr.

Speaker, the best that can be done under thoSE! trying circumstances is bei.ng done. Mr. Speaker: The hon. th<::~ MembE:~r for Grand Bank. Mr. MatthetAJs: Thank you, Mr. Speake In. I have anothe1n veiny 'important issue that: has bC!!c'n on the go for thE! last l:.hr<::'e or Four weeks in the Pr·ovince, and that is the grave loss of gear by fishermen. Lobster pots, Jump nets, her1ning nets, and some cod tr·aps have been lost all ovE:~r l:he Province, on thE~ south coast, the northE~ast coast, th~:! southtAJest coast, the Northern Peninsula and so on. I know somE:' of thE!

Minister 1 s officials have submitted reports. Can the Mi.nister now inform the House just hotAJ E:'XtensiVE'! tiH! damage tAJas and how much gear was lost by fishermen around the Provtnce? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries . hon. the Min. Carter: Min. staff has been Speak e1n, lAJOr king Ll.3 June 11, 1.990 my field for the Vol XLI past tAJeek to ·ten days in vari.ous parts of the PlnovinCE! tAJI'WI"E! gec;un losses were suffered. They are still in the process oF putl:.ing togeHIE!r' an invE:~ntory of tAJhat. has been happening.

I am told that on the northtAJesl: coast, for· example, a serious problem developed last t.o~.Jeek whE:~n ice ca111~'! in unexpec l:!:~clly and caused cons'.idE!InabJ.e clarr1agE· to lobster pots and other types of fishing gear in the area. My field staff have been checktng Lhclt out and do:i.ng an of exactly what happening. I expect abl€~ to reveal all the::~ the losses within a few assr:-ssrnent has be1:'n lAIE! lAri J.J. br:~ details on days. I should rern:ind thE! HousE:', Ml". Speaker, and the hon. Mernber, that there is no gear replacement progr·arn in place.

WE! do have:' a lobster· pot bank tAJhel"eby f:isl'lel"rrtE!n tAJho sufFer lossC:'S of lobsl:etn l:.l"i:·\ps are able to purchase, for a norn:inal fee, lobster pots. I am not sug<.:~esting l:.hat is t:he anst;..Jel" to all the problems, E:d l:he1n. I know there are probably a lot more lobs l:er pots los l:. than l:ht:!l"

f) an." pots tAJithin that J.obstel" pot. bank to I"E!placE• thern. Mr. Spc::'akur, in anstAJer· to his qUE!st:i .on, we ar'e look'ing at it, and hopefully tAJ:ithin a fE!lAJ days tAJn t;..J:i .. ll have a better idea of exactly to what extent damages have occurred. ~n. Sp_eaker: ThE! hon. the Mernbel'·' for C1"and Bank. Mr. MatthetAJS : Thank you, i"1r . Speaker.

I would just:. like l:.o say to the Minister thal: "in rny OIAJil District alone there have been approximately 2,000 lurnp n1::!ts lost and approximately l, 500 lobs lei" pots, and in the Boxey area, in the District of Fol"lune Hermitage, there have been approximately 2,000 lobster pols lost. A nu1nber of thesE! Foishel"lflf:'n No. 52 (Aflelnnoon) r~ 1 3

have had earnings of approximaL,;!ly $1,000 thi.s year and they cannot afford to get back in the fishery. Is the• Ml.nister saying that the only assistance his DepartmE!nt t~o.dl.l bE! offering to those Fisher·m~:-n tJJho suffE:!red such drastic losses is the lobster pot bank? Is that the only assistance these fishermen can look forward to, paying $7.00 a pot? Mr. Speaker: fhe Mini.ster of Fisheries . hon. the Mr . Carter: Mr . Speaker, I made reference to the existence oF a lobste1A pot bank, and I bE!lieve I m<:lde a point of-" saying that that would not be the end all, would not solve all the problems.

I should point out to the hon. Member, Mr. Speaker, l~hat I have written the Federal Minister, bt:,c ause this is not simply a matter of replacing lobster pots. For example, if tomorrow the Federal Government were to makE! available u..Jhatever mom!y it takes to bu:i1d tt~o.lenty-·-five, thiJ"ty, OJ" forty thousand lobster traps, thi':!SE! could not be madE! OVE:!I"n'i.~1ht and certainly would not solve Lhe PI"Oblern right nou..J. So there is a loss of income, and that is the reaJ. problem.

I have WJ"J t t.en the FedE:'ral Minister, and I am wi.lling to tablE• a copy of my lett:E!r, in which [ pointed out to the MinisteJ" the problem and thE!> seVE!rity of it, and thE! fact Lhat thE!J"e is consi.ciE!rable loss of ' incomr:' in l:he Province by vir·t.tH• of the loss of fi.shing gear.

I have askt:,,d the MinisLE!r to appoin ·t people from the three regional oFfices in the aff,:!c l~E!d areas to WOJ "k with my fie1d staff, to go out with the people and do a caJ"eful assessrnE•nt of thei1~ J.osSE!S and to thE!n sit down, rnaybr:~ t~.Jith the fisher-rnr:'n and thr:>il" union and others, and lEd: us try to find a Ll4 · June 11, 1990 Vo1 XLI solution to the problem. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Me11tbe1" for Grand Bank . Mr. Matthews: Thank you aqcii n, Mr. Speaker. rhis issue was raised in this Assembly for the First l:.ime on May 24. It t~,; noJJJ June 11.

Fishei"ITIE!n havco• 1ost a11 their gt:!ar and they cannot afford to gE•t back in the fishE•J"Y. By the Minister's oFFJcials contacting these fishermen and fishermen's committees, this has given hope to the se fi.sherrnen that the MinistE:!r tJJas seJ"iously looking at some PI"Ogi"Cirrl, SOI'riE:• fOI"I'fl of compensation, or some gea r l"eplacernr:~nt Pl"0~11~arn r·ol" thE!J"TI. Can the Minister make a coiiHII".itmenl: . in this House today that we cannot-: waste anymore ti1ne? If not, Lhe fishing season is going to bE! over for a lot of those FishE!r'lnE!n.

Wi.ll the Minister make a commitment thaL he will Lake a submission to hJs colleaques in Cabinet to address Lhis very serious issue and to do iL immt:>c:liah=~ly on · bt::!half' or· L:ht::• fishE!riTIE•n ar·ound the PJ"ovincr::•? We cannot wait For Lhe Federal Government forever. Ml" . Speaker : The Minister of Fisheries. hon. the Mr. Cartl::~r: Mr .

SpE:!akE!l", it is a very simple rnaLLer for the hon. g r:~ n l: l e 1r1a n l: o g E! t up an cl s u q g c• s L that the Provjnce underwrite the full cos L, f~OI" 10Xa1nple, of~ corJ"ect.ing the pr·oblem ovel" IJ.Jh.l.ch tJJe have no conLrol t~.Jhai:E.'VE!r. rhE! problE!rn is LhE!J"e, WE! knol~.J :i.l.. :l.s there, and IJJe are trying Lo Find ways and JTIE!cir1S of copinq u..J:i .Lh .it. r h i s k i n d o f p r· o b 1 u Ill lAJi. 11 r e q u i r ''! substantial involvemunt on Lhe part of the Federal Government. Now, thE! hon. gE!nt.lr:~rnan rn:iqhl not. want to hear Lhat, but. it is No . 52 ( Af t.eJ"noon) ~~ 1'1

true. That is why I have tAJrit.ten the FederaJ MinistE!ln pointing out the nature of the problem, the severity of it, and sugqesting that he appoint a commit tee. made up of his senior officials, to work with my people, and we can start meetings right away, to sit down and do a thorough assessment of the problem and then try to Find a solution to it. We are doing that, and I have a Jetter which I am quite prepared to table. Mr. Speaker: The hon. l:he Mernber for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister is trying to make fishermen around this Province believe he is sincere about: doing something about this substantial, significant gear 'loss they have had around the Province, and hE! is not doing a thing except writing letters to the Federal Minister. Wi.

J) the" Minister 1nake a cornmi tment to this House today that the Provincial Government will get involved financially in a compensation program for fisher'rnen to address this very serious problem? Mr. Speaker: rhe Minister of Fisheries. hon. the Mr. Carter: Mr. Speaker, I should remind the han . Member that I l:hink fisherm1:!n in Newfoundland have a pretty fair idea as to exactly how concerned thE! Minister' of Fisheries is about their problem.

I have talked to many of thE!rn, I had rny field stafF wo1nking on l:he weekend contacting various people within thE! fishery and Finding out the extent of the problem . I can certainly say to the House and to the Member and to the fishermen that every effort u.s June 11, 1.990 Vol XLI will be made to find a solution to their problem. He served in a C a b i n e t a n d h e u n d E.~ 1n s t. a n d s t h E! !AI a y the system works. For him to suggest that.

I stand in rny plc:HE! today and cornrnit the Covernrn~:: ~nt to whatever it takes, $5 million, ~1> 10 million, $20 rnillion, or C:'UE!n $1 million, in fact even $100,000, lJ..Ji thout refer~:: 'n CE! to CabinE•t, hE• knows betb :!r than that and I cannot do :i.t. I can only lnE•peat what I said a moment ago, that every E!'ffo1nt lAd.11 bE• made to ensure that as little sufFE·r- ·ing as possibJ.e tAliJ.l bE! inFJ.ictecl on LhE:• people affected. To that end I have written the Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa, and I shall table a copy of rny lelter, suggesting to him, Mr. Speaker An l-Ion. Member : (Inaud·i.ble) .

Mr. Carter: Well, if hE:~ is nol: satisfiE!d w.i.th lhaL, maybE! hE! can pick up the phone and call his friends in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker. M r . S p e a k e In , i t i s a s i. rn p 1 1::~ rna t b :!ln for the Member to get up and suggest that we are noL doing a n y t hi n g ' That i s lAI h a L y 0 II !AI 0 u 1 d expE!Ct him to say, isn't il ~~. J can only say that a] 1 that. can be done will be done. M r . S p e a k e r : T he h o n . t h E! Me rn l:l C:! 1n for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Warren: Thank you ve1ny rnuch , Mr. Speaker. My qUE:'S t.ion is to the Mi.n:i.stE!r of FJ.s hel"i .es, also, Mr. Speaker.

Roughly two weeks ago, the MinistE!I" of F·.i.shE•I":ies, .i.n anstAJer to a quesl :ion I ask('!d him about the collection syste m for this s u rnme r' for' l: he ltAJo n etAJ Fish p1ants in Nai.n and Makkovik ·- l asked the Minist er if he would consider using one of the rnidcl ]e dis ·tan c e bo ats to supply thos (:! l:.!AJo major fish plant s with a supp].y of N.o. 1)2 (Afternoon) 1ns

fish to enable the pE•ople in Makkovik, Postville, Hopedale, Rigolet, Davis InJ.et and Nain to be '''ITiployE!d For at. least four months during this year instead of the usual two. Thr::> Minister said he wouJ.d be back with an answer in a Few days. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is almost three weeks ago. I wonder if the Minister has the anscrJer today. Mr. Spealser: rhe Minister of Fisheries . han. the Mr. Carter: Mr. Speaker, first of all I should correct something the han. gentleman said. I do not recaJ.l having said I would be back within two days with an answer. Mr. Warren: Within a few days . Mr.

Ca1"ter : A Few clays . Well, a few days but certainJ.y not two days, Mr. Speak<:.~r. I can tell him that again we have a plan of action pretty well finalized now lAlil:hin th,::! Departlm!nt. Hopefully that tAJi11 addJ"E!SS t:hE• pi"OblE•rn to which he has referred. NoJAJ, as to my being able to deploy one of our rnidcl1e distanCE! boats, Fol" example, to acl: as a col1ector on the Labl"aciol " coast this year, of course I am not prepared to do that right now.

I can only te 11 him that l:.his summer these boats will. be invo1ved in th E! fisheJ"Y, and I tAJill be making a stal:ernent in the HOUSE', Cel"tainly beforE! this week is out, advising the hon. gentleman and other Member s (,~xact.ly lAJhal:. we plan to do tAJith the six rn:iddle distanCE! boats we are n OlAJ trying to d i IJ est ours e 1 v e s of. That sta'lE!rriE!nt shou1d be forthcoming, I am hoping, between now and Thursday. Mr. Speak er: The hon. thE:~ Me1nber for Torngat Mountains . 1_1 6 June 11. 1990 Vol XLI Mr . Warren: Thank you VE!I"Y rnuch, Mr . SpeakE!r. My suppl<:!ment<:n·y to the Minister.

The Minister did say he would get back :in a few days with an answer, and a~1c1'.in I would say that was almost three weeks ago . Could the Mini ster advise iF his DepaJ"tJTIE!nt has come up with a price structure For salmon and char, which his Depal"Lment is rE!Sponsible for, in the fish plants along the north coast for this year? Mr. Speake1n: Th(,~ Minister of Fisheries . hon. t hr:! Mr. Carter : Mr . Sp~::~akE!r, I lAdll takE! no U.ce of that ques li.on and bring back an answer, hopefully, tomorrow on that one. Mr. Speaker : expired .

Question Per·iod has Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Giuen Mr. Speakc:.~r: The hon. l:.hc:• Minister of Health . Mr. DeckE!r: Mr. SpE!ai<E:!I", thE! hon . leader of the Opposition asked that I table the Proposed LeMarchant Mult:iinst:itul:. iona l Sht:~l"E!cl Site Long RangE· Plan. And with leave of the House I would be prepared to table that. 1 have talked tAJil .h t.he Sl~. John's Hospital Council and I haV( '' talked with my colleagues . £l . .!:L ........ ....... ~-9. .. D ... ~ .. -.. ·-·--}::1.~ .. 1D.Q. £.t: : n)e J"E!port (inaudib1E•). Mr .

Decker : The J"E!pOI"t: is Oplion 7, which l:he hon . the Leack!J '' of thE! Opposit:.ion asked for·. I tAJant. 1~~ave to table. An Hon. MernbE!r : He does nol .. need No. 1)2 (Afl:~~rnoon) 1n6

leave. Mr. Deckel": I think I need leave . An Han. Member: Because it i.s not Answers to Questions. Mr. Decker: It -:is not Answers to Questions. I thank han. gentlE!men fo1" ·their gem~rosity. Orders of the Day .!~L:_ .. _ ]~~~.r.: Motion 1, Mr. Speakr::~r . Mr. Speaker: Motion 1, the hon . the Minister of Finance to Move that the House reso1ve itself into a Committee of the Whole to cons-:ider Certain Resolutions relating to the Imposition of a Tax on Employers for the purpose of funding Health Care and Post-Secondary Education. (Bill No. 28).

On motion, that thE:' Hou-se resolve itse1f into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. Chairman: Order, please! rhe han. the Leader of the Opposition . Ml". Rideout : Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I ha1Je a few rntnutes to spE:'ak to this particular bill, I believe just before closing time on Friday, and I lAiould li.ke to bl"iefly take the opportunity to, I suppose, surnrnal"ize and finalize my remarks on this particular bi11 in Ll7 JunE! 11., 1990 Vol XLI the short while that is left to me l:.his afternoon. And put quite simply, Ml".

Chainnan, this bi11 is the payroll tax that the Government brought in in their recent Budget. And as a result of this action nou.J evE!I''Y E!ITiployel" in the Province that has a payroll in excess of $300,000 a year will have to collect and pay to the Government a new 1.5 per cent tax, and WE! have had a nul'llber' oF difficulties, Mr. Chairman, with this piece of legislation. And over the last three ~onths, I guess, pretty well three months now since the Minis t..er bl"ought i.n his Budg1;!t, a1"ound l:he rntddle of March, early Mai"Ch t..ue haVE! been attempt-.ing, as difFoicult as ·1.1-. ts, Ml".

Chail"man, to gE!t some anstAJE'I"S from the Minister of Finance to the implications of Lhts particulal" tax. And I rnus t. say, Ml". Chainnan, it has ber:•n a r'ea1 difficult job try·ing to gE!l~. any information frorn the Minisler as to the impact and l:hc:• irnplical:ions of this new tax. We have trted eVE!ry t.-~Jay in l:.he book tl1rough Question Period, through every other parliamentary means availc-.lble to us fol" IAJE!I':!I< on E'!l'lcl, Mr. Cha:irrnan. Weeks on Minister would be tax on a ProvtncE!. end trying to get the to tell t he House what the :l.mpJ.:ications of Uds nurnbe1" of 91"oups "in t h1?

We have been tl~ytng to <,:JE•l.. hin1 to tell l:he HoUSE! t..uhal:. t..uould bt:! LhE• implication of this Lax on consumers in Newfoundland and Labradol", IAJE! havE:' been clay af te1" day in Question Plo!r'"iod try-.ing to get the Minister to Lel.l the House what l:he :impl.ical:ions t..uere !~or school boards and hospita1 corporations and other COIIII'IllHLi.ty organizations around the Prov:ince. Day afl:er day, Mr. No. 52 (Aflen10on) Rl'7

Chair·man, tAJi thout fail, the Mintster of Fj.nance has continued to sit in his seat~. and providt:~ no answers or provide a minimum amount of information in attempting to provide no answers. The Minister, Ml". Speake I", has refused to acknowledge that consumers in Newfoundland and Labrador will be negatively impacted by this Bill.

The Minister has refused to acknotAJledg<;! that the cost oF doing busines s in Newfoundland and Labrador - he sits over there like the old Cheshire cat and smiles at it aJ.l, but thE:~ Minister has refused to acknowledge that consumers of Newfoundland and Labrador who consume electricity, for example. who utilize the telephone services around NewfoundJ.and and Labrador will have this tax pass~"d on to th em. The Ministel" has t"efused to adrrrit that, Mr. Chairman, he has refused to tE!lJ. us tAJhat the cost of that will be to consumers. He says that it wiJ.l come out of the profi l:.s of compani-es. But, Mr .

Chairman, we know and E!Verybody in this Province knows. that companies at"E! going to pass this cos l: through. they are going to pass it through to the consumer in somE! Form or anothE!r and the Minister of Finance may as well accept that, he rnay as well accept thE! fact that it i.s going to comE:' out of the pockE!tS oF the ordinai"Y Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, that's whE!rt:>. it is going to come from! Another trip to the pockets by Ulis Minis l::er. Mr. Chair·1nan.

He took a 'll"emendous ti"ip to thE:' pockets in his first Budget, taking out about a $100 million in a massive tax grab from Nr,'tAJf ou nd I a nde l" s and Labradorians raising personal :income L'lx by a couple of percentage points, raising corporate income tax by a L1.8 JUnt:! 11, 1990 Vol XLI point or t:wo, raising all kinds of feE!S. Ml". Chai.rrnan. that's IAJhat he did :in his First Budget. In this particular Budg(!t, he::' came before thE! House and hE! lri.r:!d to create the :impression, the False impression, Mr . Chairman, that this Budget was a cormnon pE!rson' s Budget and it's not, Mr. Chairman!

It hil s the consumer again in thr:' pocket. This savage grab by this Minister, Mr. Speaker, has continued. This payroll tax 1Ali.1l b< :!- pass(~d along. Not onJ.y that, Ml ". Speak er·. the haphazard way, the unplanned manner in which this particular tax l.Uas brought in, thu Minisl:.<:>r J.ooked day aftE!r day JHE· a completE! fool nol: knotAr.ing the implications of the tax that he had propos eel. We tAJou ld ask him one day were school boards in? He did not know. We tAJould ask him another day :if the hospital cor·porat:ions were in? Hl'' di.cl i·10t know. An Han. Member : (InauclibJ.C::•). M1~ .

Rideout: That i.s the ti"uLh, Mr . Speaker . [t is the truLh. The Minister would no t an swer. W h a t h e k e p t d o i n g , M r . S f-ll! a k u 1~ • lAJa s st:a1l:ing day aftel" day aftPI~ day. until the Hou se c1osud For the Easter break . That is wha t the Min:istr::~r did, Mr. Speaker. HE! nE!VE'I" had thE:• fol"t 'i.l:.ude to sLancl "i.n this House:' and cleFe:,nd his l:.a>< measure. He went: out: when the House was closed For the Faster b I" e a k a n d p u t o u t a p , .. E! s s re1east?.. HE! did not . evE!n hav( :!

LhE! fortttude to go befoi"E! t.hE· ITI~:!clia and l:he camt:'r·as and dE!fend l:.h.is tax rneasut"e, Ml". Speakt::'l". Th is Mini ster has refu se d con sis tently to dE"fE!nd this netAJ tax. Thts brand nC:'lAJ tax !: hat he has b r·oug h t in, he has I~E·fused to clefE!ncl. He has rc:!fused t:.o give the dE>t: .ai .ls of No. ~i2 (Ar: ·lel"noon) 1\ 18

-" the 'impact of this tax, Mr. Speak<,~r. The ven' first day that:. the1nr:~ was a Question Period in this House, after the Budget came down, we began the process of asking the Minister had he figured out how this tax was going to be passed through to people, even on food, Mr. Sp~:lakE!r. He t~.Jent into a fit of convulsions and said that could not possibly happen. Well, 'it can happen, Mr. Speaker. Food comes into l:his Provine~~ in one mode of transportation or another. It is warehoused. It is lAJholesaled. It is resaled . A J.ot of those companies have payrolls in excess of $300,000.

You only have to have fifteen or tw~:!nty E:~tnployees to have a payroJ.l in excess of $300,000, and every one of those are going to bE• zapped t~.Ji t.h that tax, and they are going to pass it aJ.ong to the consumer, that is where it is going to go. If the Minister is naive enough to thing that those companies a1nE! going to be such great corpor·ate citizens, that they a1ne going to dip into 'l:hr,dr own hip pocket and find the monE!Y for the Minister, then he is more naive l:han I eVE:H' thought he was, Min. SpeakE!In.

They are going to take it as an expense of doing bus~inr:!SS, and they arE! going to pass t.hat expense along to the consumetn. It matters not whe ·ther· it is food, whether oi.l: is gasoline, whether it is electricity, whether it is telephone SE!rvice, whatever it is, i l:. is going to be pass1':'d along to the consumer of that particular goods or service in Newfoundland and Labrador. Let the Minister at least have the convicl:.ion to get up and dE•fE!ncl what the tax ~i.s al1 about, Mr. Speaker. He has not done that. Ll.9 JunE! 11, 1990 Vo1 Xl.. l Now, Mr.

Speaker, th''~r~~ is anoth"=~r aspect of this particular tax that tue hav~:! been ra·.i.sinq conl:.inuously from this side of thE:' Housr:O!, and that is, what is the impact of this tax for organizations in Uw Province, for example, school boat"ds and hospital boards. ThE! Mtnis l:er has tol.d us that j l: t~.Jtll not 1·1ave any affect. It L~r.i.11 not havu any affect, Mr. Sp~~akE!r, simply because the Minister is go-:ing to tr·ansfE:~I~ additional funding to those ot"SicUTizc:ttions to cover oFf, to balanCE! off. th1:' amount of whatever the payrol1 tax might be. But nolAJ, Mr.

SpeakE•ln, that is aJ.l vet"Y finE!, but what are the implications for that? The implications oF l:hal:. Mr. Speaker, is that the Minister's Budget which he binoughl:. inl:o l:his House in March is c:t fraudulent document. Il:. is a falSE! documE!nt. It is not. accuJnatE!, Ml". Speaker, if thE~ Minis l:E!r has l:o find several doJ.Jars, several hundtnr:~d thousand doLlar's, or· etJI;!n several million dollars to pass along to those organizations so they wi11 have extra funding to pay l:he payr·oll l:.ax and GoVE!l"n r n~:!nl: supported agencies like hospita1s and school boards.

If the Minis tE•r has L.o do that, Ml". Speaker, then the revenue pt"oject:ions and th"' c~xpE•ndituJne projections that he presented to Uris particuJ.ar l·lousr:! in h.i~; 13udgE!t are off. rhey haVE! L.o be of f' , MIn . S p E! a k e !n . I f t h E! M -:i. rLi. s t e l" has to transf"='r $1 l:o school boards in this Province to pay for the school tax, or to hosp i tal corporations to pay For the hospital tax, then h:is ''~xpendtture projections have to be off. Mr·. Speaketn, I do not uncl<::!rstand. I t~.Ji11 tell you, Mr.

SpeakE!r, I unde1nstand just as rnuch about. revenue and expenditure as the No. ~i2 ( AftE·n'IOon) rug

Minister much. of Finance does, just as The Minister somewhere, thr·ough Supplementary Supply, Special Warrants, is going to run the risk of just having book entries, and putting himself up for a court case, Mr. Chair·rnan. Those a1ne the three options that are open to him, because the Minister told this House, categorically and specifically, what the purpose of this tax was . We do not disagree t~o.lith that, but in order to cover his legal caSE! he l1as to broadly apply it to basically everybody, and that is his problem.

In order to do that he is either going to have to t1nansfer additional funds to those organizations that. I mentioned, simply do book entries, or do a Special Warrant, or something, to get the funding. If it is just a book entry, in and out, just. a book entry, the Minister knows exactly where he is going t.o find himself. Mr. Chairman, this pa1nticular tax was tril:~d in other provinces. We told the Minister in this House several weeks ago that the provincE• of Manitoba has informed the business community in that Province that they intend to repeal the tax. Well, Mr.

Chairman, WE! knot/o.J that the Minister of Finance in Manitoba sent a letter to all the people lAJho lAJelnE! paying th1::! tax admitt'.ing that it was a regressive tax, admil ~ting thal: it had caused increases in unemployment in the province because employers had laid off, and that the Government of Manil~oba t..uas moving to repeal that tax. We knot/o.J that, Mr. Chairman. WE! have seen a copy of the letter . In fact, I believe, WE! tabled it here in Ulis House.

Thr:~ MinistE!r' has seen it, so he knolAJS tlo.Jhat Manil:oba intends L20 .June 11., 1990 Vo) XLI l~o do as concerned. far When as that l~ax is others have moVE!d and seen the consequences, lAJhy the· Minister would chose that particular route remains bafFling to say the least, Mr'. Chairl'llan. The other thing I lAJanL to say is this, if, as a result of l:.his tax, there is any fL.IIntheln :i.ncrE!ClSE• in unemployment rates in this Province this Minister, and this Government, are going to bE! hEdcl responsible. They haVE! to be . Just look at the une.rnployment statistics that were released on Friday .

They lAJl:~r~~ up a FuJ.l 3. 5 perCE!ntage points over this rnonth last yr:~ar. They were up a point and something over last month, over Apr·:il monl~h, bul:. al~ a t.irnE! of the year, Mr. Chairman, when unemployment rates should be trending down the other lAJay. WE! have s eE!n, month a f tel" 1non th, after month, nine months, I believe it is , out of the last twelve, significant risE!S in the unemployment rate '.in this Province, 3.5 percentage points over this rno nth 1 as ·t year .

Yo Uln Parl:i.amentary Secretary shou)d go check his math because they are up 3. 5 points over May of last year', because it was May's figures. If t h i s t r E! n d i s h a p p E! rd. n g a t a t. i rn E! of the Y'='l'-tr whc~n people arE• l:.ry"Lng to get back in the fishing boats - An Hon. Mernbe1 :_: (Inauclib)E•) . M1n. Rideout : Thel"t::' IAJas no 3. rj PE'I" cent increase nationally, I can tell the ME!I Tiber· that. Ml ".

Chairman, when people are trying to get back in the fishing industry, and tJJhen, For exi.Hnple, fishermE!n ar·e now off ' t.hE! statistical roll of unemploy1nent, because they have been since 15 May, if that ral:.e is incrl:'i::~.secl by 3. 5 pe1n c~~n'l ove1n that ped.od of tj.1ne, l:hat is a VE!ry, very No . 52 ( Af tE!rnoon) ruo

distuJnbing trend indeed, and that uJill bE! ar10thE•r cause of concern for the hon. Minister of Finance in teinrns of the integini ty of the Budgc,1t estimabO!s that h.:1 pinoduced for this House. Again, al1 lAJB can do is plead with the Minister. The Minister, if he is pig-headed enough, uli11 carry on, and at some point over the next fet.u lAJeeks, Mr. Chairman, this bi.ll ulill pass, if the Minister is stubborn enough and wants to continue on with that. Another question I wanted to raise, Mr.

Chairman, and I thought it. interesting, I believe it was in the House, I am not quite certain, but I saw some refert':!nce to the Minister of Finance indicating that this tax would be relatively easy to collect. I believe it was a statement he made to the House, it might have ber:!n a media statement, I arn not suine. But that was the essence of the statement, that it will be relatively easy to collect. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is not what I am told at all. I am told that thE!

Minister of Finance and the Taxation Division of the Department of Finance have their hands full t.~lith al:.tempting to devise a way to coLlect this tax. I am t.old tha l:. th~' computer models, for example, that are presently in existence for collecting the retail sales tax and the personnel that: is involved in collecting thE! inetail saJ.es t.ax and the auditing and so on, that those two taxes cannot be mated successFully together. That is what I arn told by people who ought to know, Mr. Chairman. NotAl if that is the case then that raises another very important question.

The Minis tE!r in saytng that this tax tAJould generate $11J miLlion t.his year fain l:he treasury L2l. JunC:1 1.1., 1990 Vol XLI and $25 million over an annualized basis is not including any significant overhead cost An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. l~ideout : I u1ould nol: thtnk. He has never indicated that he was . for additiona1 additoi.onal co1lec bon new tax. additional personnel, equipmE:'nt, and tirne to put in placE:' a sysb:'m For Uds br'ancl Now thr::1 cornputein is thE•Jne.

I knOiAJ the computer is theine, but I have bE•en told that thE• cornputE!ln moclt:!J that we presently have in the Taxation Division of the Department of Finance cannot do this. It cannot be rnated together, the I~ST and this~ one, the collection efFort cannot be mated together.

NotJ.I ' iF L·.he Minister has to significant1y expand the workforce i n the Taxation Division, if hE! has to make significant capital proCUlnerrtE!nts of COITlpUtein sofLlAIClinE• and s o o n , the n l:. h e n e 1- a rn o u n t that he is going t:o co11ect ofr thts tax may well be below $ 15 rn:ill:i.on this yecun and ~f,2~) mi1Lion on an annua1 basis. rhe Minister, Mr. Cha:iTrnan, has never addressed that question to this Ll:'gislattH'e. l-IE! has not given the assurances to this Legis1al:ure !:hal:. the syst.e111 is l''eacly to run by the 1. AuqusL, and that: there 'is no diFf'iculty lAii.l:h it.

And I believe that before this bill passes, ,1\Jlr. Chail"lllan, the Ministe1n has an oblig<.,1tion to out l ine in detail to l:.his House thr::1 procedulnE!S, thE:' systerns, the method by which l:.his particu l ar tax is going to be collected. Now, Mr. Chairman, dozens and dozens No. 52 (Aftei"noon) lAJe of have raised questoi.ons. r~ 2 1

Our crit.:ic for Finance, th(~ Member for Mount Pearl, has ra1.sed dozens and dozens of others. I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity as this debate proceeds to get up on a pE!riodic basis and ansWE!r the questions that the Opposition have raised. Do not just sit there t.>.rith a grin or whatever and let it all go over your h~:1ad. T'his is a brand n1~w tax. We havE· a rE!Sponsibility to raise the issues as we see them related to this brand new tax. And it is incumbent, Mr.

Chairrnan, on a Minister, it. is incumbent on anybody holding ministerial responsibility to respond to the concerns that we raise. Some of them might be out to lunch, somr:~ of thE!m I have no doubt are legitimate, but whether they are out to lunch or legitimate or in the middle the Minister has a responsibiJ.ity, if he t.uants the support of l:.his Legislature for the bill, to at least make an attempt to answer the questions. And we have not soen that very much in t-.his LegislatuJ~e over the last t.ueek or two. Mr. Chairman.

We have seen Government bills, this one and others included, where the Opposition would put up two or three or Four speakers and Ministers lAiould hang on to their chaiJ~s For dear Jives hoping l:hat an oppoJntunity wouJ.d come to gE!t up and close debate. Now. Mr. Chairman, debate is not going to be closed on this bil.l for·.-~ while -- that I can assure the Minister. TherE! are a number of Members on this side of the House wo want to speak on this bill and they are going to have thei1~ opportunity to do so.

So I would hope l:hat in bett.ueen that, as the normal ebb and flow of debatE~ across l:he House goes, Lhat L22 June 11, 1990 Vol XLI the Minister would opportunity every now least to ansWE!r thl'! questions raised by this side oF the ChaiJ~rnan. l:.ab~ an and LhE!I1 at lE!gi t.imate Ml:!ITJbers on House, Mr. Mr. Chairman : I would like to take this opportunity to welcome to thE! galJ.eries, on bE!haJf of a] J hon. M1'=!mbE!rs, sixty --t:wo Gr·ad'"' lV studE!nts frorn Woodland E1nJnent<u·y School in N1:=!W Harbour, Trinity 13ay accompanied by their tea chers Marilyn Reese and John Boone. Order, please!

Order, pleas,~! The hon. East. l:he ME!J'JlbE!r for HUJJlbi?.J~ Ms Verge: Thank you. Chairperson. I was pausing expecting the Minister of Finane~:! to get up to answer · solfle oF the points raised by the Opposition Leader in his speech . It 1 s nothing J1(!W For 'l:hE! Mints tel~ of FinanCE! to l"erna:in 'in h'i s sea·t. and to sl:ay stlE!nt lAihE!I1 irnport·.ant finanCE! rnatl.:ers a1~e bE•ing deba t.E !c/ in Lhis House.

One of Lhe Frustrations thc:1t IAJe 1 VE· hac! since the Minister of Finance announced the payroll tax in his Budget Spc:!ech in March, is, l.:he Minister 1 s unwillingness or inability to explain l:lw J"a-t:.ionah! of thE! tax o1~ to l::el] peopJ.,::, hotAJ his rev'::,nue pJ~oj ec I: ion tA.Ji-lS ca1cu1ated or to say which ernploy':,rs in l:he Provine"~ .-:'lJ~,,! going to have to pay it. Clear·ly, Cha'ir'pE!rson, this t.uas as one of the St .

John 1 s newspap E!rS billed it, an irnpulsc,, lax. ll ~ was a measure thal:. t.uas decided by l:hE· Min'ister of Finance, the Premier i.'lnd the Cabinet, at l:.he last rn:inute, w:i.t:hout pJ~opeJ" hornetAJOJ"k having been done. No. t:'>2 (Afternoon) V 2

Now For· many Y''~ars prior, the officials of the Department of Finance, during the budgetary process, produced a list of revenue options for Treasury Board and the Cabinet yea1n afte1n year. When I was a Member of the Cabinet dutning the 1980s, the CabinE!t would look at the option of a payroll tax and reject it. We rejected it out of hand because we knew from the experience of the three Provinces that have had a paytnoJl tax, that it is a regressive tax, it is not related to businesses 1 abil.i.ty to pay, it is not tied to businesses 1 profitabi.l.ity and it has served to depress economies.

OnE! of our greatest difficuJ.ties, is the fragility oF our economy. One of our greatest chaJ.lenges is, motivating entrepreneurs and business people to start businesses in our Province or to expand existing businesses here. Entrepreneurs nowadays, have lots of choices about whE!lne to locate. It is usually just as easy for them to set up in the Maritimes or in Central Canada as it is in Net.ufoundland. In Western Ne~~oundland, where I live, perhaps, because of our proximity to the Maritimes, we are acutely aware of the business competition bett.ueen NE!lAJFoundland and Nova Scotia.

We know that many businesses set up in Nova Scotia, perhaps even in Cape BlnE!ton island 1nather than Westen1 Newfoundland becauSE! of 1nore favourabJ.e business cond:i.tions in Nova Scotia. The introduction oF a payroll tax in Net.uFoundJ.and is one more strike against NewFoundland. Nova Scotia doesn 1 t have a payroll tax. None oF thE! Mari l":irne provinces has a payroll tax. Only 1,_23 June 11, 1990 Vol XU three provinces of Canada had ever had a payroll tax and they are Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba. Mani.toba, as the Leader' of LI"IIO!

Opposition just pointed out, and as our finance critic explained some weeks ago, has decided to abandon thE! payroJ.l tax af Leln h a v i n g e x p E! r i me n t e d tAri l: h t. h e payroJ.l tax for the last fe~J years. Manitoba has found that the tax has selnVE!d as a disincentive to investmen~ in Manitoba. It has discouraged business act.ivity in Man:U:oba, it has been a bad economic measure in Manitoba, and the Manitoba Government has decided to phase out the payroll tax. Mln.

Chairman, one~ of the grE:•at itnonies about this r"~al dlio1nge Government 1 s payroll tax - is that it is being labled a tax for post-secondary education and health. This is an Administration, who when they campaigned For election a little more than a YE!aln ago, Pl"orrriSE!cl to elirrrinate schoo1 taxation. rhey prorniSE!d to scrap taxation to finance Children I 5 edUCa t.i011, rhe ME!

ITI be r f o 1n B u r g eo - Bay cl 1 E s p o jT , For example, who uJas in l1is seat unti1 a few minutes ago, madE! an ex p Li c i t c a rn p a i g n p r o Ill i s e t h a l- ·i f the Liberals formed the Govel"nn'll':•nt the school tax would be eliminated. What have lAJe seen aFt.ur h.uo budget.s ftnorn this Li.be1na1 I"E·a-1 change Administration? We have SE!en l"E!tention of the ole! schoo1 tax for childrens education, and we have seen the introduct.ion oF a second school tax, a payroll h~x for post-··SE~condainy ecluca ·t:i.on. Mi".

Chairman, one of the greal:. ironies of this payt"o11 tax fat" past. secondary education is that: it is going Lo cost educationaJ. insU.tutions, il: is going Lo hurt school boards delivering programs No. 1)2 (AFternoon) I~ 2 3

to children, and it is also going to penalize post-secondary education institutions and privatE! education agencies . Mr. Chairman, the payroll tax lAJill be levied on school tax authorities which exist to raise revenue for school boards. One school tax authority in the Province has a payroll in excess of ~li300 thousand a year. It is the St. John's authority, the largest authority. The Member For S t . J o h n ' s We s t , the M i n i s. t e r of Mines and Energy, is quite familiar with the St.

John's School Tax Authority, having served as chainnan of tht::~ authority, and I might add, having done good work in modernizing that authority and in increasing its revenue per capita and its revenue For students. lhe St. John's School Tax Authority is going to have to pay over $6000 to the Minister of Finance undc:'ln the new pc-.J.yrol1 tax. That is $6000 l:hat shou1d be going to the Avalon Consolidated School Board and the St. John's Roman Catholic SchooJ. Board, and the Penticostal School Board for operation of schools in and around St. John's. Mr .

Chairman, the school boards are going to be subjected to the school tax. The school. boards that opE!I"atE! schools fo1n children that offer kindergarden through senior high school programs. NotAJ, the Minister has been saying that school boards will be compensated and therefore school boards will not haue to incur a m~t expenditure becau se of thE! payroll tax. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance has never explained how his Department is going to L211- June 11, 1990 Vol XLI compensate the school boar·ds. A ver·y big question is tJJho is going to finance the payroll tax outlay?

Is compensation going to be patd as the tax collector· extracts payments or are school boards going to have to finance this new and unexpecb::-cl cost? Will there be money in as money is taken out? Now, I am looking straight at the Minister of Finance when I am asking this quE·stion, rE!alizing that l:hE! Minister of Finance carne to this assembly from the education faculty at Mernor·i.al University, and assuming that:. thr:~ M:i.ntstE!l" :i.s sensitive to the financial difficulties being experience by school boards in the Province.

The Minister in his budget has cu l Provincial Government. operating funding to the school boar·ds. H1:• is not giving the school board s as much purchasing power this year as they had last year. Accor·ding to the Provincial Association of School TrustE!E!S, afte1n noLLng the freeze of the school tax equalization g1nant:. theine i.s only a 0.7 per cent increase in operating grants to school boal "cls. DE!Spil" .E! the Minister of Finan ce's projection that thE• i.nflaUon 1nate would be ~ per cent obviou sly then school boards will be worse oF F this year than they were last year . Mr.

Chairman, this has been pointed out by many involuecl in administering education in our Province. It. has bE! en poin Led ou l by superintenciE!nl:s 1nos l: recE!nl-ly. The superintendent of the Green Bay Integra lc:•d Schoo 1 Boar ·d had ver ·y po inted cr it.id .sms of Uw failure of the real change Government to provide adequately for school boards in the recent budget. Mr . Chaoirrnan, it . is exl:inE~rnely No . S2 (A fter ·noon) R24

important for tho MinistE!r of Finance and his coJ.leagues, somE! would say his twin the Minister of Education, to explain tAd.thout any more delay how school boards are going to be compensated for the payroll ta x and to make it absolutely certain that school boards will not be penalized. Mr. Chairperson, post-secondary education institutions which are publicly financed also are going to be hit by the payroll tax .

Memorial University, with the largest payrol1 of ali, somE!thing in the order of $120 million, if you include the payroll of the Medical School, will have to pay $1.2 million in this Budget year as the tax does not begin until August 1. In the next fiscal year when the University will be subject to a tax for the whole twelv~::1 months, the cost lAJi.] 1 be something in excess of $1.8 million. Now the Minister of Finance has a duty to explain how that institution is going to be compensated for the payroll tax. HOIAJ can Memor·ial University pay thE!

Department of Finance $1.2 million this year without being penalized? The Government operating grant For Memorial University, lAJhich is paid through the Department of Education, as wel1 as the ope1nating funding for the Medical School, paid through the Department of I-leal th, did not allow For the payroll tax evidentially. When the E!Xpenditure side of the Budget IAJas pr~::1pared thE! officials did not real.ize that there was going to be a pay1nolJ. tax, and lAJ~1E!n they calculated grants to publicly finance the institutions thE!Y did not allow for the institutions to have to pay the payroll tax .

Now how is the Minister of Finance L2S June 11, 1990 Vo1 XLI going to provide supplementary funding fo1~ those :i.nstitut:l .ons so l·:hat. they IAiill not haVE! to absor·b any cost, whE!ther intE!lnest. cost i.n financing the extra outlays o1n l:.he cost of the payrolls tax itself. Then , Mr. Chairperson, there are these private education institutions. The Minister has rnade clear that they IAJi.l1 bE~ t.rr:!ate•d thr:' salfle as a1] other businesses and IAJi.ll be leviE!CI Full payroll tax without any compensation whatsoever .

Presumably those institutions are going to have to pass on that ext1na cost to their students. So private education institubon Fees are going to have to go up so Lhat those businesSE!S absorb thr ough their reVE!nUE!S the extra cosL of doing business that tAJi.ll sb:'m Fl"om thE! payJ~oJ.l tax. Now, Min. Chaiq>eJ~son, hei"E! tAle a1ne in June of 1990 after fourteen months of the Libl ~!lnaJ.

Real Chang r::· Government wil':.h l:.wo school l:ax es, the oJd school tax for ch iJdr en 1 s education and nm.~.J th r::! new pay1~o11 tax for adult education, a tax 1.1.1hich is being levied in ~;uch a way as to hurL education gE!nerally. It. is qoinq l:u cost thE! St. John 1 s Schoo1 Tax Authority without any adequate I'::'Xplanation to the contln<:l.l~y, IAH~ have l:o assumt' il: . is going to cost school boards sorneth i.ng, aL ]east , l:he carrying ch ar·ge s on l:he C:'Xl:ra outlays and unE•xpE•ctPcl ouUays .

And we know :it . is going l':.o cost private education agencies who obviously L1.1iJ.l haVE! to 1necoup l:.haL extra cost from their clients, From their students. Mr. Chairperson, on all busin esses subject to this new payroll Lax are going l:o have to pass on l:hE• cost to their consumers. And as J mentioned many businesses in our No. ~>2 (Aftenwon) 1~ 2 1 :)

Province Mainland have to compete against retail businesses. Take stores, grocery example, op(:~l~ating is at least one owned grocery headquarters are in stores, as an in oul~ Plnovince largE! Mainland chain, the the Maritimes. We have also locally-owned and managed grocery chains and gl~ocery stores. This payroll tax is going to penalize the locally-owned chains and stores, and if the Minister of Finance will listen, he might nod his head in agreement that there is a very small margin on groceri,?.s.

I say \:o him that grocery stores in our Province are going to have to sell a lot of groceries to recoup the cost of the payroll tax that the Minister is about to levy on thEHn. And it so happens that the mainland-owned stores will get off easier because they have thei1~ executives and their owners in other provinces, so the salaries paid to thos1::! l:op per s o nne 1 wi 11 not be s u b j e c t to the Minister's tax, but the locally-owned grocery chains and stores are going to be hit full-force. Once again, the Newfoundland Government makes it harder to do business in Newfoundland.

Once again, the Newfound1and GoVE!l~nrnE!nl: signaJ.s to investors and entrepreneurs that there are new di sadvantages attached to doing business in NewfoundJ.and. Chairperson, thE! payroJ.l tax LAJi. ll be l'?.vi, :•d on utili ties. It lAiill be charged to NE!Wfoundlancl Hydro . Newfoundland light and Power, in tu1nn, will. gE! 'l. quick and E!asy approval by the Public Utilities Board to pass on to rate payers the double whammy effect of the payroll tax, thE! amount that lJJil.l bE! collected From Hyd1no, as well as the amount that will be collected from Newfoundland Light L26 June 11, 1990 Vol XU and Power.

T(:'lephon~:!, simt1arly, l:he amount or l:he appJ.ied to that telephone subscribers . Newfoundland tJJi.11 pc\ss on payroll l:.ax uli"lity to The utilities are labour-intensive. Each of the ut .ilities has a huge paylnoll and the amount of the payroll tax which will bE! extracted Frorn those uti] i.ties is quite substant :i.f:J.J. and it. is going to aqgr·aval:e t:.hE! difficu1tiE!S of inclividucl1 s and businesses in our Province.

Chairperson, the Minister of Finance, in his Budget document, forecast. $15 rni.1J:ion nE!t rE!lJt:H1UE! fl"OlTl th1:! payrol1 tax j n this budget year, and, in t:hi s budqet year, the tax wil.l only be collected for eight months. It starts on August lst, and lJJi.J 1 br:· C 011 e C h' d f 0 I"' e i q h t ITIO n l:. h S . N E• X t YE!ar, the Minister of Financr::! is saying, l:he l:.ab:. lAd 1.1 be '~25 rnil.lion. Over several. weeks in the Hou se of Assembly, I and ol:hlH' Mernbel"S oF thE! Oppositi.on askE!d UH:! Mi nister· of Finance to I?Xpldin his revenue pr·ojecti.on.

I asked hi1T1 repeatedly to say how rnuch of Lht:• $15 million revenue projection for this year lAiil1 co1nE! Fr ·orn FE!der·al employers, how much t.uill com e flnorn provincial employers and Provincial Government-funded agencies and institutions and, fi.nally, hoLAJ rnuch of' Lh l:! $1') million rc •venue proj ec l: ion lAl'i n come from pl~ivate sect..or' employers. The Minister stE!adfastl.y avo'.ided ansLAJE'I''inq the questions, although in one statE!rnent to the nE~LAJ ~> rrH: ·cl·ia, he sugge sted that the take Frorn Federal Government employe rs will b(:~ in the order of ~S4 rni 1.1 'ion to $5 million.

I call on the Minister of Finance during this No . ~i2 (A ftel''noon) f~26

debate to explain precisely how much of the anticipated revenue will come from each of those three broad categories, how much will come from Federal Government employers in thE! Province, and how much Fi~om Provincial Government employer's in the Province, and I am including in that category, Provincial Government-funded agencies such as hospitals, senior citizens 1 homes, post-secondary educational institutions, school boards, Cro1JJn Coq>ol~ati.ons, such as Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services, Marystown Shipyard, Newfoundland Hardwoods, and so on.

Chairperson, I am very doubtful about the accuracy oF the revenue forecast. The Leader of the Opposition raised another salient point. He as ked about the administration oF the new tax. His information indicatE!S that the Minister of Finance is going to have to create a whole new computer program and employ additional staff to adrni ni s tE!r and collect the payroll tax. fhe Minister of Finance owes it to the Members of this Chamber, and the citizens of the Province to say what will be involved in administering this tax. What IJJi11 be the cost of collecting the tax?

What will be involved in seeing that the tax is applied correctly and uniformly? Now the Minister oF Finance, in this year 1 s Budget, is eliminating most of his Gas and Tobacco Tax Inspection Division. He is eliminating some ten positions across the Plnouince. ChailnpE•rson, I know the individuals afFected with their union are grieving the dismissals.

I do no ·t know exac t1y where those rnattE!rS stand now, but what concerns me is whether the Department of Finance can matntain 1_2'/ June 11, 1990 Vo1 XLI its revenUE! take f1nom the gasoli.ne and tobacco tax, whJch is well :i.n excess of $100 million a year, with eight or ten fewer staff. These p1:;!ople, some of whom I have spoken to, tell rne that thor'E! is flagrant maneuvering to avoid paying E!ach of those taxes, and without s t ric t p o 1 icing t h E• r e 1Ad.11 be significant slippage in the Department of Finance 1s collections from those taxes.

That i.s an aside but, Cha:iq)('!I"Son, theine is a para1leJ. tJJ:i l:.h thE! payroll tax. The pay1noll tax, which obviously was not properly thought out before it lA.Jas introduced. The paraJ.lel has to do with what safeguards a1~e b0.~ing built into the collection system to see that the tax is applied uniformly and fairly to prevent slippage and to prevent tax evasions. Chairperson, if honest business people pay this tax becauSE! they get biJ.J.s from the DE•par'tiTIE!nt of Finance, will l~hE· Minisl:er oF Finance take any col"rectiue ac U .on against others less reputablE! Luho try to avoid paying the tax?

Then, Chairperson, there is the question of creal:iue auoidc:H1Ce, lo~.Jhich is J.egal . Does the Minis LE!I" of Finance anticipate moues on the part of business pE•oplE=· l:.o spltt their operations so !:.hal: none oF them wiJl have a payroJJ. in excess of $300,000 a y1::>cH' and, l:.hE!rE!fOI"e, be subject to the payroll tax? C h a i r p e r s o n , I tAli 11 s u rn ll p rn y rema1nl<s by saying that. Lhu payl"o11 tax is a bad tax. It is bad For thE! economy of ou1n Pl"ouince at:. a time when the Provincial Government should bE!

I:JI':!nding OVE!I" backwards to sU .mulatE! business activity to entice investment in our Province, to make our Province an attractive place in which Lo do No. 1)2 (Afl:ernoon) I~ 2 '7

business, contracted with the alternative compared to the Maritimes for example. The payroll tax is ineginE:~ssive. It. is not related to businesses or employer 1s ability to pay. The payroll tax will be levied on businesses that are losing money. The payroLl. tax will be colJ.ect.ed from businesses that are on the brink of going insolvent. The payroll tax has been rejected by the Province of Manitoba, which has experimented tAJit:h it, and which has found that what I am saying has been the case.

Tht=! tax has been a disincentive to business in Manitoba and, therefore, the Manitoba Minister of Finance has announced that Manitoba is abandoning the tax. Chairperson, furthermore, cla'.im of the Government that is a measure to post -secondary education health is farcical. This clearly is going to post-secondary education health. the this help and tax hurt and And. finally. Cha:irpE!rson. Lhis measure poi.nts up the real change Liberal Government as being the hypocrite that they really are.

These are the politicians IAJho promised to abolish the school tax to finance children 1s education, and now they are maintaining school taxation with higher and higher rates, and they are charging a second school tax, this one called the payroll tax for post-secondary education. FinaLly, to add ·insult to i.njury, Chairperson, Lhe payroll tax is going to extract money finorn school boar·ds, the St.

John 1s School Tax Authority, post-~econdary education institutions, private education agE•ncies, hospitals, and nursing homes. rhe payroll tax is going to hurt the cause foin whJ ch 1.28 June 11, 1.990 Vol XLI it officially exists, hypocrisy, Chairperson. Mr. Speaker: rhE! hon. thE! Mernber' for Ki.lbr·ide . Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you, veiny much, Mr. Chair111an . I would like to have a fetAl br·ief words on this payroll tax. Mr·. Chairrnan.

I think Lho 1nos t despicab1E! part of Ud.s tax t:hat-:. 1. see is that it. was brought in this Province under the guise of a health and E•ducat:lon Lax, i:'lnd brought in under the guise that the Budget that: tA.Jas brought. :i. n by the Minister of Finance was a peopl1:! 1 s Budget. Min. Chatr·rnan. it was s ugg E! s tE!d in the Bud g E!t Spt•E:! c h that this payroll tax iAJould have VE!ry little, or no eff"E!c ·t on Lhe consumE!rS oF Lhis Provine''! tAJht~n it was brought in, and it. tAJou1d br::! quite acceptable .

For awhile most pe ople thought that. maybe thi.s IAJas a f'act, but. aftein WE.~ finally got SOiilC! Vct<JUE! answers from the Minister of Finance as to who would pay Lhe payroll tax, who would be responsible For finally paying Lh•? payinoll tax, iAlE! find that l:he cons urn e r s o F l: h :is Pro vi. n c e • i n l. hE! mosL part, ar·e going Lo hauu Lo pay through the nose For Lh1:• payinol1 tax that thE! M:in:i.st.er· of F i n a n c E! h a s b r o u g h t t n .

W o t•l j l 1 f:i.nd that: l:.his being an edu c<;1 l .. :ion and health tax we would expect that education and heal th Facilities IAJould be exernpl: From the 'l:ax, but: tAle Find t.his :is not Lhe case, alt.hough some educational faci1:ities iAJi]l qr:•l: a inebate at the end of the yc•ar, I bE!lieve. but tAle cannot gE!t tha t information fro m th e Mini ster of Finance as to tAJha t I'TiE!Chan'i.srn the schools and the - No. 1'>2 (AFb:>r'noon) I~ 28

Mr. Efford: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr . Chairman : Minister of Social point of ordo:!r. The han. Services the on a Mr. Effo1nd: I do not ITII~an to interrupt the han. Member speaking. but there se~::~m to be a lot of meetings going on and a lot of talkinq so I cannot hear what the han. Member is saying. .~.r.._:...._ .. _c;::_b_~.i r m.~n : I h a v e to a g r e e with the han. Minister of Social Services. I have difficulty, too, in hearing the han.

Member and I suqgest that it is probably mostly causl'::~d by Members to my left. so I suggest if they want to carry on a private conversation they go outside the Chamber. The han. the Member For Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylw ~ rd: Thank you, Mr . Chairrnr.:ln. The mic1nophone J.ight i.s on so I tAJould imagine :i.t is working. Mr. Chairman, I thank the han. Minister of Social Services for his in'lE!InVE!ntion. I am sure he is very interes tE:~d in hearing what the social service 1necipients oF this Province would have to pay because of the Minister of Finance bringing in this payroJ.l tax, Mr.

Chairman. rt. was brought 'in as a health and education tax, and as I l.1.Ji.'IS saying one would assume that education and heaJ.th Facilities l.1.JouJ.d be exE:Hnpt from this tax, but we know thE!Y alnE! not exempt but ·Uwre 'is suppose to be some sort of a mechanism worked out in the future, I guess, where the hospitals and the school boar·ds of this Province will get a rebate equal to the amount of tax they pay. Mr. Cha:irman, I don't know how L29 JunE! 11, 1990 Vol XLT long they will have to finance this payro11 tax, but. if t.hE:~Y h<:we to finanCE! it at aJ.J.. it t.~.r:i . 11 cost thern intE!lnest money.

So I hope the Minister of FinanCE! t.ui11 take:• :into consider·ation whE!n ho:'! is giving the rebate to the schooJ. boa1nds and hospitals, it. LA.Ji.ll. cost them to finance the paying of this payroll tax and I hope he includes l:.his in his rE!bate that hE• plans to give the schools and hospitals. Min. Chailnman, ther·e 'is orw g1noup, a very vital group, in our education system, who will not rec1:;!ive a rE:~bate because oF this ~1ealth and educatton tax, thC::' payroll tax.

I understand that the school tax aut:.horit.i.r:~s. 1.1.Jho may have th~:dr budgE!ts - CE!rtain1y one of them does have a budget more than $300,000 For salari.es. They will. not get a rebate. Maybe the Minisl~er ol: Finane~:', w~wn ho:• is cluing up t:h:is Act, tAJ:i.J.J. a~JrC:!E! to answer· rny question as to whe t her the school tax autholnit.i.E•s will have to pay Lhe - An Han. Member: (InaudibJ.e) . Mr . R. Aylward : He hasn't answered any of these Mr. Chairman. quest i ons, What is the answer, do you know? An Han. Membe1n : (Inaudible) . Mr. R.

Aylward : No, you don't l<not.u I::JE!Caus(:! ho::! nevel" anstAIE'I"E•d Lhe ques t ion, Mr. Chairtnan. Will the schooJ. tax authori~ies get a rebate when they have to An Han. Memb~::'r': (Inaud:i.bJ.e) . Mr. R. AyltAJard: Wi.J. l the schoo l tax aul~horil~.ies qE•t. a rebat~::~. Mr. Chairman, not the schoo l boa r ds, not thE! hosp:il~als, but·. t:he school No, S2 (Afternoon) R29

tax authorities who have to pay this? QJ: .. :._ Kit c_~'l : (Inaudible) . ~): ,.: ______ ~ _ _:, __ 0_yJ._l~-~r._c!_ : The 1n e we go . Now we have an answer from the Minister. The Minister has indicated that they will not get a tnebate, yet the Minister of Social Services, who has all the ansWE!rs, the Member for Placentia who has all the answers, kept saying yes . An Han. Member : (Inaudible). Mr. R. Aylward: I legitimate question. am asking a So, l:his heall:h and E!ducation tax that tAlE! have brought in is going to cost the educational financing institution in this Province, Mr.

Chairtnan, because they will not . gE!t a rebatE!. Mtn, Chairman, the Minister of Finance said the school tax authorities will not get a rebate, so I expect it lAiill be a cost put into their system sorn~:·hotAJ, so it lAtiJl cost ·- Dr. Ki ·tchen: (Inaudible) . Mr . R. Aylward : - one, Mr . Chairman, that is what I wanted him to say, one school tax aul:.hod.ty being t:he St. John's School Tax Authority, no doubt. And 'l:.hr:! ::)t. John's School. Tax Aul:hor'i.ty lAti.ll bE! l:he only onE! to have to pay this, as the Mird.s ·ter says. rhey will not get a rebate, Mr ·.

Chai .rman, so this is a cost to the education system of the ProvincE·. It is hard to get that through to hon. Members, but i.t. is not very advanced logic to figure out that it will cost the education system some money. I don't know whal.: th1::1 do1lar value is, Mr·. Chairman, but i.t wiJ.J. cost L30 June 11, 1990 Vol XLI the education system in the St. John's area somE! monE•y . Th<:tt lAtas not indicated when the Mini ste r read out this people's Budget somE! months ago. And it is only notAl, today, that WE! got an anSlAJOin whether this would cost the r:~ducation sys tern or not.

That is one of the areas that will cost the education system. OnE! other arE!a that I ant interested in, and maybe the Minister can give an tndicat:i.on, I understand the Crown corporations in the Province lAJiJ l. have to pay this pay In o 11 taX , L he ones lAI i t h enough money - An Han. Member : (Inaudible) . Mr. R. Aylward : Enough saldtny, yes. So somE!

Crown cor·porations will haVE! to pay. ~Jow, I Lhouqht I heard the Minister make this stab.•mE•nt one tirne befot'e, and I nt:'ver had l:.hE• chance to a~;k h:i.111 this before, but I believe the Member for Mount Pearl did ask him and ht:~ anslAIE!red in l:.hE! affirmative, I am not sutne. MaybE:~ he can indicate notAl. NE•tAJFoundland Farm Ptnoducts is a processinq plant. in l:hi s ProvincE•, a Cr'OlAII 'l corporation, and I lHlciE!!ns toocl Lhr :, Minister to say al: one l:irnt:! l:hal. NelAJfoundJand Far·rn Pl"oclucts lAIOtilcl haVE! to pay Lhe payrol.1 l:.ax.

NotAJ, I would like to know from l:.he Minister when he clues up his dE!ba"le iF r~E~lA1Found1ancl Fal"'lll Products will have to pay the payro1l tax. I know the siLuation in N•?.wfoundland Farrn Plnoducl :.~ ; much betle1n than the hon. Mi.ni. slE!r ' knows the situal:ion in ~3oci al Services i.n this Province, Mr . Chairman. An Hon. Member : No! No, you don't! Min, Chairman, NetAif ou ndJ.ancl Fa nn No . 52 (Aft er noon) R30

Products - the Minister has not indicated whether they will have to pay or' not. I guess he is not aware if they will have to pay, but., in his statement and in the BudgE!t and in his statement on thE~ payroll tax, he says that al1 the primary industries in this Province, the Forestry, Agriculture and Fishing industries, al1 industries associated with them will not have to pay the payro11 tax, so I assume that Newfoundland Farm Products wil1 be exempt from paying this payroll tax, yet I can 1 t get that confitnmed from the Minis t«:~l" of Finance becaUSl':!

I don't think he knows quite yet, i.f he has decided to charge Newfoundland Fa rrn Products . U nd E!ln the statement it would be safE! to assume that Newfoundland Farm Products management, has assumed that they will not be paying this 1.5 per cent payroll tax. Mr.

Chair·man, if they do have to pay it, the:' saJ.ary at: Newfound1and Farm Products, in case the Minister of Social Services is :interested, I am sure that he is not aware of what the salary is at Newfoundland Farm Products, but for· this YE!ar, 1990-1991, in thE!ir BudgE!t, the sa1ary would be $6.2 million and if Newfoundland Farm Products haVE! to pay the payro1l tax, it will cost them in the vicinity of $80,000 to $100,000, which, obviously they can 1 t afford to pay because Government, this year, in ~~r-ants and subs:idies to Newfoundland Farm Products pay them some $4.2 mi1J.ion.

I note that the increase in the Budget for Newfoundland Farm Products this year was about $80,000 but I don't know if the Minister sat.u far enough ahead Lo give them an increase in their grants and subsidies to covc::'r the L31 June 11. 1990 Vol XLI $84,000 that they wi1J have to pay in the payro11 tax. It seems to me that Farm Products, being an agd.cu1tural act.i.vity in this Province, should be exc::Hnpt. as the Minister stated and said in his Budget . as we 11 as f t s h p l c:H1 ·t s arc:~ E~xernpt, and as weLl. as Uw two, three paper mills in this Province are exernpt.

I would 1ike the Minister to find out lAJh1:;! l:.hetn Newfound1and Far·rn Pr·oducts tAJi.1J. bE• tnesponsiblE! for paying l:he pay1"oll tax. One other Crown corporation Lhat I a rn s u r e tAli. 11 h c~ v E! t o p a y l: h e payrol1 tax will be Newfound1and and Labrador Housing Corporation. Mr. SpE!ah~ln.

Mewfound1and and Labrador Housing Corpotnal:.ion, I am not sutn(:~ what thEdr salary Budqet is right now, but I do knot.~-J it. ·.is grc:'ater than $300,000 ctncl t.hr:!y w i.11 h a v e to p a y t h e pay 1n o l 1. l:. ax and I am wonderi.ng what effect that wi11 have in providing the social housing which is desperately needed around Lhis Province and that NE•tAJfound] and ancl Labradotn Housing is trying Lo do f'ot" this Province, but ~:•ven now, even today. l:hey cannot. afFon'J to do lAJhat is needed even in U1E:• ~>t. John's area not to mention the rest of the Province.

Some of the areas where the consumer l~li. 11 be d"iint:•ctly aff(!Cl:.ed wi l .. h this payt"o11 tax drld aqa ·i n t.uhen tAlE! have any Lax ·.i.ncrease. any broad base tax increase the people who can least afford it ar('! l··.he onE:~s who cH'e going lo have to pay it along wiLh the rest oF us. There are no exernpLions in Lhis for peop1e on lotAJer· incomes or fixed incornes and they wilJ all have to pay this payrol1 tax. Mr. Cha:ir·man, when you 1ook al:. how many tirnE~s they ITI.i . ~Jht have t.o pay No. 52 (Afb:•rnoon) 1n1

it, if you take fo1n ins ·tance, the food that tht~Y are going to oat, the food that wo got in this Province is brought in here by large shipping companies o1n large trucking companies whom we would expect will have to pay the payroll tax, so thE:~ transportation companies 1Ad.l1 pass this cost on to HH?.ir customers, obviously, and their customers will be the wholesale companies in this Province, so those wholesale companies will get this payroll tax from the transportation companies and a lot of our wholesale companies will have a salary larger than $300,000, so they have to add another 1. 5 per cent because of their own salaries so we are at 3 pe1n cent already and that is before we even get into the supermarket and when WE! get into the supermarket, t:he retai1 level on Food products, the wholesalers would have added th~~ir 1.5 per cent and the transportation companies would have added their 1.5 per cent.

Then we will haVE! the larger supermarkets in this Province, again who will have salaries more than $300,000 and again they will have to add the 1. 5 per cent and the result of all of these will be that the price of food in the superrnar'kets JAJi11 haVE!, built into its cost, somewhere along t.he line. the payroll tax. They will have to pay it at least three tirn(:'S, thrc::~e times that:. I can identify. I do not know if there arE! rnor'e.

If some bf these companies have 1aw firms or accounting firms that have largE!r salariE:~s than ~1;300 l:housand, then again you might have the transportation company being charged by its law firm the 1.5 per CE!nt so that again t~o.li.ll increase it. Maybe the accounting c o rn p a n y l~o.l i 11 c h a r g e l~ h e transportation company again the L32 June 11, 1990 Vol XLI 1.5 per cent, Mr. Chairman. But as VE'lny fOI"tunatE• that 1 arn, Mr. Chairman, that. ·th~~ strat~o.JbE:HTY industry that I IAJi .ll be staJ"U ng in Kilbride in- the near future will haVE! only one employee r'i~~ht now. And, Mr.

Chair'rnan, l:hal: employee I will guarantee you will not make a salary oF $300 thousand. So, for thE! Minister of Social Services inFor'rnat.ion l:.hE! straiAJberi"Y farrn t.hat. is br:dn~~ created :in the District, alLhough we might have a J.ot of casual employees, Mr. Chairman. Il: :is a good employer and I wi 1.1 haVE! t:.o watch it, I guess, in thE! Futur'e, M r . C h a i r m a n • b e c a u s e j u s t :1. n t I·H:! planting process For one acre there were eight people working there that day. Eight people voJ.unteer'E!d to work thE·Ine so thr::!y 1Ali11 not g1:!l:. a saJ.ary out of ·Jt.

ThE!Y wi11 not. gE:'t. a scdiH'Y out:. of it right now . But, Mr. Chairman, I IAJould see in the near fut.ur'e that a srna11 indus try like that coul.d pay l:.his 1. S pE!In cent sales tax except and a good exception that the Minister of Finance made il is a part of the agricull:.ura '1 industry and it probably tAdl.J nE•ver' haVE! to pay it. And, as I say, NewFoundland FarHI Products should come under that sarnE! exerJJpl· .i.on, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Cha·.irman, sorn~~ of L.he o'l:hPJ" areas whE!re the consurnt:!J"S oF th-:is Province arE! going to be aff -E:!Cl:.ecl b y t h e 1 . 1) p 1?. r c e n t s a l e s l. d x i s that l:hE• CJ"own corpoJ"at:i on ca] Led Newfoundland Hydro in Lhis Pro vi nc e wi 1] have to pay Ud . s 1 . 1) per cent payroll t.ax, Mr. Chairman. and obviously they are going to pass the 1. 5 per CE!Jll: on to . theiJ" custornel", theil" rnajoJ" customer in parUcu1ar which t~o.d .ll bE! NE•wFound1ancl Light and PotAJOJ". No . 1)2 (AFLer'noon) 1<32

:.:.1: And Mr. Chairman, bE!Cause Newfoundland Light and PoWE!r has a payroll also of more than $300 thousand they will be charged a 1. S per cent pay1~oll tax. So the consumers of electricity from Newfoundland Light and Power wiLl directly or indirectly be paying a 3 per cent payroll tax, Mr. Chairman, through their electric bills. And again thE! people who can lt~ast afford to pay this, Mr. Chairman, are the ones who will be hurt the most. Mr.

Chairman, another utility in this Province which is a private company, but a very essent'.ial service, that is offered that consumers need in this Province now especially senior citizens, Mr. Chairman, who not always can get out when they want. The Newfoundland Telephone, Mr. Chairman wiLl. be charged this 1. 5 per cent payroll tax lJJhich again wiJl be passed on to the Social Service recipients, the senior citizens, people on fixed income, Mr. Chairman, who again can h'as t afford it. An indirect cost to Government of this payroll tax, Mr. Chail~rnan, will come through thE! construction industry. l\1r.

Chairman, all the construction that wil1 be donE! by Government from now on by the larger construction companies will again have this payroll tax incorpor-ated in it . And if th:i s payroll tax is incorporated in the larger construction companies obviously it is going to come back to thE! Pl~ovincial Government as a cost of doing work in this Province. One area again that 'is not fa'.ir in this payroll tax are the larger municipalities in l:his Province who as we see, the St . John's School Authority uli.ll pay the 1. 5 L33 June 1:1., 1990 Vo1 XLI per cent payroll tax, the St.

John's City Counci1 will pay the 1.5 per cent payrol1 tax, and I believe the cost of the City of St. John's is- An Hon. Member: $300 thousand . Mr. R. Aylward: - between $300 thousand and $400 thousand, Mr. Chairman. WE!l1 i.t will be anot.hE!r $400,000 tax burden on the residents of thE• City of St. John's and ~3t. John's uli .11 no l: be the only one obviously, but l:he larger, Corner Brook, Mount Pearl mostly likely wil1 have to pay, Grand Falls, Gander, dE!Finitely Corner Brook will have to pay . An Hon. Member: that amalgamated. And any Loums Mr. R.

Aylward: rhE! 1~esidr::H1l':~; :in these 1argr::'r cities and l ot,~.ms in our Provine~~ again, these P~'oplE! pay the highest propel~ l:axe~; now, Mr. Chairman. rhey pay Lhe highest land costs now, Mr . Chairman. They pay the high est cost for their hous:ing . And agatn they ud.ll be payinq extr'a 1noney because of the pclYl"o11 l:.ax bl"oug ht in by this Minister of Finance.

So as I have pointed out the payroJ.J tax :is going to caus~;:• <.·< burden on l:he consumers of this Province and .i.t is going l:o causE• a larger burden on sorne consuJnC;J"S, particularly fixed income and social service recipients :in Lhe St. John's or lal"ger c:l.ty arE!aS, Mr. Chairman, they will be burdened even more with Lhe payroll tax than some peopl~ in othe1~ par'ts of the Pl~ovinu, lAJhich makes it a completely unfair tax. Now, Mr'. Chairrnan, I knolAI thE! MinistE!r' is ou ·t on GoVE!r·nrn ent business somE!Where, but I arn s ur~ ' he is within shout'.ing distance . No. 52 (Aftenwon) R33

But when he does clue up the debatE! on t:hi.s bil1 I IAJould certainly appreciate it iF he could give mE! a b1neakdown of how and who ~Alill pay the $15 million. We have heard vaguely through the media, certainly not in this House of Assembly, although the Minister might have nodded his head to a question one time, that we will get some $4 million this year from the Federal GovernrnE!nt payroJ.l. fhat is not bi::J.d, I suppose. fhey can afFord to pay, but they ~Ari11 probably just put it back on a higher tax again. Reasons like t.his probably the hon.

Members are against the GST, but tAJhE!n Provincial Governments such as Mr. Scrooge of our local Legislature here, thE! Minister of Finance puts on new taxes, the Federal Government two has to collect it. So maybe why GSTs come in. But, Mr. Chairman, if th(:' FedE!lnal Govern1nent is going to pay the $4 million, the school boards and hospitals are going to get a rebatE! so thE!Y tAJiJ 1 not obviousJ.y pay any. We hav1:- a net of $15 million to be colJ.ectE!d; almost $11 million without the Federal contribution. I think that is around betl!.Jeen $4 million and $5 mi11ion we should collect from the Fr•d s.

I IAJOuld like to see From t.he Minister', and I would be more than happy IAJit:h a r--ew COI"IIITIBnl:S after tO probably agrr::!e to let the bi11 go because eventually it would pass in this House anyLuay, numbers IAJil1 d i c t at e t h a t i l: tAli 11 p a s s . B u t , Min. Chairman, if the Minister IAJould supply this l·louse L!.Jilh a breakdown of who will be paying this other $11 million this year. I am not surE! what a fuJ.J . year's cost IAJill be to l:he Federal Government, but if it. is $4 million, $6 million l:his year, I L 3LJ .

JunE:~ 11, 1990 Vol XU guess we could say that it wil1 be p1nobabJ.y $6 m:i.J.J.ion in the twe1ve month period or maybe even $8 miJ.li.on. Then WE! haVE:1 to coLlect. another $17 mLJ.l.ion sornew~IE!r'('! in thE! Province for the full t.li.Jelve month breakdown is going to be $25 million tax or benefit to this Province. Mr. Chairman, if thE.• Minis l:er could get, and I arn sur'E' his staff has i t prE! parE' d o F IJ,J h a l: l: he bi~eakdown is in HH,' PClYI"o11 tax. It tAJould not be hard to g£::! l~ l~he Iron Ore of Canada t.o Find ou t what their payroll is, and certainly L!.Je would knoiAJ IAJhat..

Lab West would be paying, and i l:. t.~.Jould not. be too ha1nd for' Lhe Minis tel" to get the salary of N<=!WfoundLHid Hydro or Newfoundland Light and Power, and s1~e ho~AJ much they haVE! to pay. But., Ml~. Chcd .r'!TliHI, 1 would like to set:' a breakciOIAJrl i.n how we are going to coJ.lect a fuJJ $15 million in this AU<JUSL to March, an eight mont.h ped .od, and $25 rnilJ.ion :in a l:tAJI::>lvE! 1nonth period? Because, M1~.

Chairman, 1 be1 .-i.r::•VE' by exempting the hospitals and by E!xernpting thE! schooJ. boar 'ds Jn l: hi s P r o v i n c e , I b 1'!1 i E' v e t h a t t..here is not enough sa]aries created in this ProvincE• l:o corne up with the full $If:> mn lion net as thE! M-.inis l:l:1r keE!pS ~~aying. CertainJ.y if the Minister could give me where the collected decisions. sorne -.indication rest of it was I could make dS to be:i.nq S OlflE' WhE:'n I have to votr:! Fo1" this Lax, maybe iF th£:' i:HlSIAJE•r's arE· satois fac t:or'y, rnayb' "' 1 IAJ:U I comE· on side and vote For the hon. M:inis l:E!r of . FinancE!, and ~H :!

LuU .l convincE• me thal: this ts i:'\ vury sensi.b1(:' saJ.E!S lax and .i.l .. -i.'> not. going to hurt the consumer. No . f:i 2 (Af lE!r'noon) F\311

But, Mr'. Chatrman, from the information that I have and the research that I have done, it would seem to me that the food prices will be affected by payroll tax, Hydro or electricity costs will be effected by payroll tax, telephone costs will be affected by payroll tax, Mr. Chairman, construction costs will be affected by payroll tax, schools and hospitals I am not sure how they are going to get theil" rnonE!Y back but they could quite possibly be affected by payroll tax. I know the St. John's School Tax Authority wiJ.l bE! affE!CtE!d by payroll tax, Mr. Chairman.

And I know that certain municipalities i n t hi s Pro v i n c e ldi 11 be a f f e c ted by payroll tax . Each of these things causing an extra burd1?.n, an extra expenSE! on t.he consumers of these products or these services that are being offered. But, Mr. Chairman, it is extr~::~mely difficuJ.t for me to give the Minister of Finance any support in his payroll tax . If I thought it wa s a fair tax maybe I would be more inclined not t·.o criticize so much, but I do not bel.ieve that: the tax is a fair tax.

It places more of a burden on some residents of this Pl"ovince than on l"es'.idents in other parts of the Province, Ml". Chair·man, and bE! Cause of that I would f'.ind it very difficult: to support it. I wish the M:inister would get up in this debatiO:! and giVE! TnE! sornE• an slJJers to thr :' questions l:hat I haVE! posed and in particuJ.ar if Newfound1and Farm Products will be paying the payl"o11 tax. Now, Mr.

Chairman, we have fairly largE:~ feed company '.in Province which certainly operating because of agricultural industry, and not know what their payroll onE! this is the I do might L..3 f:) June 11, 1.990 IJo] XLI b(;!, but maybe the MJ.ni.stE!r IAJhen he is giving a breakdown of how he is going to col1ecl th(.;! ~>lS mi.1lion m:lghl~ be able to incJ.ude in t:.hat breakdoiAJn if the fN~d companies in this Provine!~ are:~ subject. ecause, Mr.

Chairman, if the fE!ecl companies do have to pay it thiO:!n another expense to the farmers tn this Province lAJho certainly hav e a hard E!nough time trying to managE! and opE!rate Far·rns '.in ·-- they have to be the bravest people tn the IAJorld. Anyone lJJho wants to Fi:'ll"m in Newfoundland, thE!Y clesr::•l"VO hE!lp not hinderence in such '.items as taxes. Mr. Chairman, I SE!e I hav e rny notice for fiv E:~ rninub:os but: I am sure that thE! Mi.niste1n wi.Ll -.. and I spur t:he MinistE•r on lo qEd: up and answer these questions now. And l.t.rith that, Mr.

Chail"rnan, I wi11 be very :interested '.in listening to his remarks. Mr. Chairman: ThE! ho n. th e ME!ITib E• r· for -, H urn b-er -·- ~Ta 11 e y . Mr. Woodford : Th ank you, Mr . Chairman. I wou1d li.ke to rnake a Few comments on the new payroll tax that lJJas supposed to be instituted to look after the post-secondary education and was called the health and education l.:ax i.f I arn not mistakE!n. There are a lot of other questi .ons l(!ft unansw(~red IAJi.t.h regar ·ds lo t.hP tax and that is, I gue ss , t~Jho :is go·i.ng to pay, who :is responsible for paying and who is not. But onE! of the big things Lhal:.

I SE!E! w:it.h it and one of l .. he pJa ces that i.t is goinq to hul"t lllost, and I have sai.d tt blc•folnE:' :in speaktnq on the 13udget debatE:', is Sll~tdl bus'.inesse s i.n the Province . And when I say small bus'.iness, Mr. Chairman, I am taJ.king about businesses in this Province No. 1 ~2 (Aftel"noon) R3 f:)

sorn1?.one day, a to as mentiom~d it small business a business lAiith revenues or less. the o l :her is referred $1 mi J.l ion Now to me whether it is $1 million o1n $2 mi.llion or $500 thousand or whatever it is here except for the joint corporations and the big companies such as Kruger, Abitibi-Price or someone like that, they are all small businesses. They are all small businesses where people cater to the service industries and mainly to tourism. That is thE! one that strikes me most.

I mentioned that before and I have to say it again Fr·om the outset about the people who are employing anywhere from FiFty to sevent ·-five people on a seasonal basis paying out anywhere in the vicinity betlJ.Jeen 650,00 to 900,000 per annum in wages, but the main part of their income comes during the summer season when tourism is at its peak. I have that right in my District, and eve1ny Member in this HousE• has examples in their Districts all around the Pr·ovince.

I speak of that because I know personally of businesses in the District of Humber Valley who arE! going to be hit for anywhE!re from $7000 to $12,000 this fall that they did not have to pay for last year . They JJ.Jould have to raise th1?. pinices of thei1n pinoduct in orde1n to compE!nsate because there is no other way to get it, absolutely none, and small business today in that type of industry is fairly compel:i tive. 1-1 F E>~AI thou s a n d d o 11 a r s lAii t h a small business like that makes all the difference i.n the world as to whether it is going to be profitable or not and whether you stay afloat.

Apa1nt from that:., the small business sector is one place L36 JtH1E! 11, 1990 Vo1 XLI where they find it much hard1 :!r to compete, and not being able to ~dinE! X number of employees, ten 01n fifteen ovel" and above lAihat ~ Uwy had last year, it hurts the local economy.

They have to find it somewhere. rhey are not like l:hE· Newfoundland Hydras, the Newfoundland Light and Powers of the world, or Newfoundland Tel, where ·they can go t_o a PUB board, ask for increases and have the monies they tJ.Jere suppoSE! to pay, the 1.5 per cent automatically added to their bills on a monthly basis to recoup and recover the monies that were expended in thE! form of the l.S payroll tax. Mr . Chairman, in thE! Bill ·.U:.self one of the things the Minister said, I think, was that the resource based industries, namely the fishing, agricu1ture, and forestry sectotns lJ.JeJn(' ex(,illpt.

Now, I lAJas looldng at· ~-)ection 2, Subsection (

c) of the 13i.11, and I suppose the question to the Minister because he is not here now, but it could probab1y be answered later, do Lhey have to pay that money up front and thr:•n ask for· a rebate, or ar1:?. Lhey a u t o rna t i c a J 1 y E' x e rn p t f r o rn cl a y one? It is no l: cl1:!i.'W to rne F1nom looking at the Bi11. It ceJ"ta:i.nJy does not specify whethE!r they are automatica1ly exempt, or if Lhey just pay the money and then at. l:he end of thE:' yea1n, or at:. Lhe end of l:.lAIO mont.hs, or· six rnonLhs, or whatever, apply f'or a r·ebate. It is not clear .

It says that: . t-ax would have t.o bE• pa'id on i3.ny Lhoi n~~ produced, rnined, or harvesLed anywhere in the Province. Also, Mr. Chair·man, to add the 1.5 per cent to any business in the Pl'·ovincE!, but I speak mc-dnJ.y J":i.ght here of small business aqain, dcld to that the contrtbuti.on fi"OITl CPP, the matching dollars, the No. 52 (Aft.E•J"noon) rB6

contribution to UI, and Workr:.~rs 1 Compensation. When you add compensation, UI and CPP alone to any businE:'SS in this Plnovince today it could rnake or break ·the business here in the Province, especially the way the economy is today. It is very unstable, they hav~ -:~ a job to survive at the best of times, and then along comE•s 1.5 per cent on a payroll tax over and above thr:~ $300,000 that would add another source of expenditure to the companies, and that mE!cHIS whethqr they survive or not. Where do non-profit organizations stand? The Minister has stated on several occasions that they are exempt .

Again, who is exempt and in what form? Do they pay and then ask for a rE!bate, or do they not? If they do not they in t:urn have their revenues cut and cut substantially lAJhen you are talking about a particular school board in the Province and a lot of other municipal organizations in the Province who have very substantial payrolls. They have to get the taxes so they in turn will moue and put it right back by putting up property tax, or put up the poll tax, Oin whcltevein to collect. the 1.5 per cent. Min .

Chairman, moving on 'into the Bill, it has beE!n mentionHd by Members that it is a regressive tax and I go on further to say that the mean s the Minister has in his Bills to collect the taxes and to police this Bill is rather draconian to say the least. The property under

Section 7 ( 1) in the collection of taxes. There is a lien in favour oF the CinOtAJn in the right of the Province on the entire assets of the estate of the employer and the lien has priority over all other claims of a person against the employer . 1.3'/ June 11, 1990 Vol XLI Now, to me, Mr.

Chairrnan, iF thE!rE! is any such thing as rE·~~inr:~ssion, that is regression, lAJhen the CrotAJn has complete jurisdiction and complete first call, Fii "St mortgage on all lhe ass(~!tS of Lhi'::' entire organJzation no matter tAJhat it is, as long as it. is eli .gible and eligible meaning 300 E!rnployees or payrolls of $300,000 or more. Now, we have always had municipalities in the Provin ce. Anybody under the property tax system always had the option, I don 1t